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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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It's because I'm a feminist that I have never been a fan of the designation "first female ascent". It has always struck me as condescending. Kind of like, oh look, you have that handicap of being a woman and you still managed to do that. Pat pat on the head.
Thanks for saying something I could not articulate well enough without coming across as a dick.
In the climbing world we all have the same tools. The rock will humble you and teach you lessons no matter what gender you represent.
In the original article I see the encouragement to go for bigger things. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with getting a pat on the back for getting a first female ascent of something bad ass too..with the sport of climbing getting popular in the mainstream, the mass opinion on the subject will change.
Hmmm time to finish the irrelevant to own progress discussion and pull on some sweet crimps...attempting a first Ukrainian - American male with the height of 6'2 ascent of a yellow v4. Big day. If someone wants to make a documentary about it, make sure to email me.
This is why it is annoying to *always* hear about how Lynn or Beth did some First Free Ascent because they have small fingers.
Welcome to the internet. Every insecure prick can downplay first free ascent of the Nose or a giant first ascent on Rupal Face. No sh#t Steve House did it, he had a rope gun! If I had one, I'd do it too, BFD! :) Ashima cranks because she is 13 and her fingers are small. Tommy cranks because he is naturally gifted. Alex soloed crazy sh#t because he is insane. If I had those qualities I'd do the same shit! Except it is easy to talk sh#t and hard to obtain the necessary skills. My only advice, is to ignore the insecure people with ridiculous opinions. I am sure Lynn Hill does not care, she proved everything that truly matters with actions that speak louder than those few irrelevant haters (don't like to use this word, but seems appropriate in this particular case). :)
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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even though there are still some poor pitiable sexists in climbing, how can that pose a barrier for women in climbing in this day and age? I don't see it.
I think this is true. Most of sexism I've run into while climbing not so much a barrier as an annoyance. Some of it's subtle, like if I'm climbing with a guy, another guy will almost always direct his comments to my partner. When it's not subtle...those become running jokes with my climbing partners and I've noticed it usually happens when I'm climbing with another woman. I still chuckle when I think about them, and recognize that's a luxury of being in a younger generation.
I would love to just be a climber when I'm climbing and, usually, I am. However, since there is still gender bias, if there are women who get pumped and inspired to push themselves by other women doing the FFemAs, then I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. I'd be curious to know more about the external coverage of FFemAs versus FFAs/FAs is for women.
Is it annoying to you that small fingers undeniably make some routes easier, just as fat fingers make others easier?
Personally, neither annoys me. I agree with V and others that you just need to climb your body type. The only thing that annoys me is that it's more likely for a conversation about a lady crusher to center around this b.s than the fact she is a crusher.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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size of parts?
that's always an issue, but I'm not whining when a TM Herbert fist crack is stacks for me... a Lynn Hill tips, well I've gotta really work on that...
but to the OP, the designation "First Female Ascent" will be used, curse or benefit, until it is no longer newsworthy. As Warbler points out, historically this is something of note and exceptional, and it will attract attention, readership, web clicks (read: advertising revenue) even in this day and age.
The number of female members of FA teams is increasing with time, and probably within a decade or so it will be equal to the male members of FA teams, and at that point it will hardly be noticeable, probably not newsworthy, and likely not to generate that much more attention (read: not worth it for advertising revenue).
Saying that the future will be like the past is definitely flawed. There is no difference that I can see in the ability of female climbers to participate in FAs, Sue McDevitt, Linda Jarit and others have a huge number of FAs under their belts in the Valley alone. The trend for female first ascents will increase as well.
Whether or not the FA team wishes to categorize that FA as "female" or "male" is irrelevant, really, as it is the Climbing press (writ large) that determines the notoriety.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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No, I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
It's annoying that:
A) EVERY Freakin' Time People Talk about Lynn on the Nose, or Beth on her 5.14c - they also feel the need to point out the small fingers. It's like an asterisk FFA*, (FFA* but the fingers were small, so don't be so impressed). It's thinly veiled mansplaining why a woman beat those "Superior Dude Climbers".
CONTRASTED WITH
B) Some guy does a FFA, and the conversation is NOT dominated by the having to explain to everyone that he only did it because, ya know, the holds were far apart, or the fist crack was really wide, or whatever.
Tommy Caldwell himself addressed THIS VERY ISSUE when he climbed the Nose.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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The only thing that annoys me is that it's more likely for a conversation about a lady crusher to center around this b.s than the fact she is a crusher.
^^^^ This, exactly.
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couchmaster
climber
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I can't answer your question if calling a thing a "First Female Ascent" is good or denigrating to women, but it's a damned sure thing that yours and Mayan Libby-Gobats super fast ascent of the nose is/was outstandingly impressive on it's own. It wasn't that long ago that the Nose record was slower than that. When someone climbs the nose that fast (in the 4 hour range), it's newsworthy, man, woman or child. When anyone climbs 2 El Cap routes in a day, like you 2 again, thats just freaking amazing. VERY newsworthy. In that regard, I think it's up to you guys if you want first female ascents or fastest female ascents to be a recorded category or not, I suspect most of us are fine with it.
Congrats on kicking ass (fast) Libby.
By the way, FFA means First Free Ascent, and it should remain that way. IE, Lynn Hill did the FFA - First Free Ascent of the Nose. Maybe FFFA is better in that regards. But would Hill than have a FFA or a FFFA or could they be combined into FFAFFFFA. Snuck in an extra F for Freakin' in there. See?
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WBraun
climber
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Guys were talking to each other long before females were crushing on the scene about body anatomy advantage and disadvantage on certain climbs/pitches.
The start of butterballs was a perfect example.
Small fingers have advantage at the start.
Got nothing to do with male or female ....
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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size of parts?
It's how you use it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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well, I'm a guy and as a group we are obsessed with part size...
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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Lol, I think women are more worried about skill.
And obviously I'm talking about climbing (cough, cough). I definitely need to improve on fist and off-width more because my hands are small!
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Most of sexism I've run into while climbing not so much a barrier as an annoyance.
I used to find it an annoyance when I was in my 30s and 40s , Viv.r.e, when every time I went out climbing it was like that. But for a long time now, it just makes me smile. I was trying to think why that would be and I think it's partly because I have so many wonderful feminist men in my life, as climbing partners, friends, relatives and my fantastic husband, that the few dinosaurs that I run into these days seem like a joke.
In my lifetime, it feels like there really has been a big shift in general in how men relate to women as partners in climbing (and in life). Progress!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Compared to almost all other athletic endeavors, rock climbing might just be the least sex-biased of them all! In fact, there’s no other sport that I can think of in which both men and women have achieved such close performance results on the exact same playing field.
Don't let Warbler see this
Got nothing to do with male or female ....
yup has to do with fingercracks, the #1 assessment tool for finding who has the greatest natural ability for all forms of rock climbing.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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In my lifetime, it feels like there really has been a big shift in general in how men relate to women as partners in climbing (and in life). Progress!
I think this is true, also. But as a feminist man, I acknowledge that this was not the case, and not long ago. Women were definitely thought of a a second class. I think the publicity of First Female Ascents have been instrumental in changing people's minds to a degree.
It is still a male dominated sport, from what I see at the crags. But there is change, and part of change is seeing others tread ground where you'd like to go.
I suspect we are in the midst of a real shift. Part of the issue is the respective participation. When you've got a base to your pyramid that is much much bigger, it should not be a surprise that the top is higher. But that base can expand, and the dynamics WILL change.
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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I think it's partly because I have so many wonderful feminist men in my life, as climbing partners, friends, relatives and my fantastic husband, that the few dinosaurs that I run into these days seem like a joke.
Big +1. I think just the fact that people are talking about gender in a climbing forum is an indicator of the progress you're talking about.
Haha, @ phylp and others--I would love to hear some of your stories for chuckles/head shaking. One time a lady climber friend and I were finishing up a climb (she led) that was in a chimney. As we walked out of the chimney we got asked by a male climber in a concerned voice if we were lost as we stood 3 feet from the trail. He only dug himself deeper after we told him that we just finished climbing. What made it even funnier is that I had just finished the sierra high route, part of it by myself with only a map and compass. We were polite, but as soon as he was gone, we were on the ground laughing.
Another time someone asked a lady partner and I if we had accidentally wandered away from the visitors center (he was very concerned that we had come such a long way). Again, as soon as he walked away we were laughing and repeated what he said as a joke for days after...always dangerous to make assumptions about people regardless of gender!
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Hi Warbler,
Sexism is often manifested by the assumption that women in general are incapable of doing something. So maybe the man has never experienced that a woman can do that, or their experience is that women are NOT capable of it. They had that direct experience in the past so in that present moment they think it's still true.
Here is a non-climbing example: I still remember sitting with the high school guidance counselor selecting classes for my freshman year in HS. There were a lot of science classes on my list and he asked me why. I said I was possibly thinking of premed major in college. And he said "This is a pretty hard course of study for a girl". And that guy was looking at the fact that I had straight As and my PSAT scores were in the top 0.5%.
So in my own personal climbing experience, going back to the late 80s and 90s, if I was climbing with a man and we walked up to something and there were other male climbers around, the assumption from others was always that the male was going to be leading, that the man was the better climber, and that the man had more experience. This was expressed in direct comments to the male which revealed the mindset. Or, seeing I was going to lead something, would offer all kinds of beta to help me with what they obviously thought was going to be a scary struggle for me. When it was something I could do in my sleep. At that time there were far fewer female climbers so it's not like it was meant to be nasty, it's just the assumption of incompetence and inexperience.
I never found it particularly egregious, just kind of annoying, because at that point in my life my ego wanted the recognition that I was a Real Climber (™). The sexism in my corporate science career was far more insidious and tiresome. Now I don't really give a sh*t what anyone else thinks! And it doesn't happen so much anymore.
Hey! Nowadays it's the ageism more than the sexism! My friends Jack and Chris told me the story about how they had just gotten down from climbing something and some 20-something came up to the routes and said "Oh, how nice it is to see (old implied) folks like you still getting out".
Good night now, checking out for the day.
phyl
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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It should be like public restrooms. Designate women's climbing areas separate from men.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Wow, Bisharat really has a way with words: take a word and line up several thousand after it!
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CCT
Trad climber
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I believe this sums up the article most succinctly:
Thank you to everyone, female and male, who loves climbing enough to deal with crappy pay, high risk, and a lifestyle that involves living in a van down by the river eating Cliff bars and sleeping on sponsored ropes, just to climb hard enough to inspire the rest of us.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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"What's a Z-clip?"
I'd never heard the term and I told him so. I rarely climb in a gym.
He's all "it's when you reach down and grab the rope below your last protection bolt, instead of above it, and pull the rope up to clip it into the next bolt, causing the rope to zig zag up and down between the two bolts."
Gotcha old man!
I said "when I started climbing that was just called being an idiot."
Hahaha that is funny !
People often question my competence on popular trails, peaks and climbs. Last month two guys were asking if my friend and i were lost since it was about 30 minutes before the sunset. "The sun is going down you know!" For f*#k's sake, we are on a high sierra trail, and have headlamps...
At lover's leap every climber would question your competence no matter if you are a guy or a girl...Seems like that's what is popular with noobs after they feel semi solid leading 5.8.
A lot of climbers assume that I don't know how to crack climb well after I tell them I am from the Bay Area. Especially if it is an older local climber at a crag. Multiple times guys that fit the above description would go off recommending good beginner 5.5 to 5.7s that would be a better warm up. Not sure if my or anyone else's ego should be bruised by such assumptions or suggestions, since you never know if these people are concerned about someone who has never climbed at a crag getting over their head. Or maybe it is their way to make small talk. Or maybe they are trolling you? Who knows. Don't think, or at least hope, most people out there are not trying to come off as dick for sake of being dicks.
Funny story a friend told me last weekend involved a male guide in Europe asking her 'who is going to put the rope up for you two? Do you have a guide or a husband?' Apparently to him it was a surprise two girls could do it without a male. Maybe it is rare to see two females climbing a long route where he guides, but why come across as a dick by assuming?
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Here I thought FFA was First Free Ascent, and just left it at that.
I think if a community wants to focus on Female First Ascent Designation, and it makes them feel more empowered, go get it.
As a female n00b climber, I don't really pay attention to it. Does this motivate me to climb better and harder? Nope.
What motivates me? Climbing with fun people who show up, man or woman.
I've been lucky in that I've been able to climb alongside amazingly competent, beautiful, and sexy women who all out climb me in every way, and suffer me to tag along in my androgynous rags. Is this inspiring? I'm more inspired by the fun times had together than gender.
At the local gym, I see plenty of women representing alongside the guys. It's great! I'm sure that many of them are inspired by top female climbers.
What I don't understand is with women more and more in the high level climbing spotlight, why don't I experience more gender equality in climbing firsthand?
By far, the male climbers I know are far more likely to take me up on my offer of 'lets go climbing'. Why? I have no idea. Why don't I climb with more women, and represent the Sista Powah? When I tell my female friends who 'climb' - "if you wanna climb, drop me a line" I never hear from them. When I ask them "wanna go out to a cool crag today?" they have yet to say "Yup!". The guy friends who have taken me up on my offer don't rack up to more than 10, but the few guys who have far outnumber the women who still rack up at zero.
This doesn't have anything to do physiological differences between the genders. So far, personally collected data shows that they are simply less likely to show up to climb with me. I'm sure this is different with other people, but why the noticeable discrepancy in my personal experience given that so many prominent female climbers are supposedly inspiring women to go higher?
Thanks!
Cheers
LS
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