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velvet!
Trad climber
La Cochitaville
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 5, 2015 - 10:53am PT
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**BenEfit. dang.
Andrew Bisharat thinks they do more harm than good to the female climbing community.
http://eveningsends.com/climbing/the-curse-of-the-first-female-ascent/
The Curse of the First Female Ascent
The First Female Ascent is a paradox—it’s at once pushing women forward and simultaneously holding them back.
By Andrew Bisharat | 10-01-2015
This year there have been a number of interesting online discussions about issues specific to women climbers: from observations of underlying sexism, to deciphering whether a climber’s recognition is a product of her beauty or her achievement (or both; and if so, then which was more of a factor?), to a recent debate over the merit of the “first female ascent.”
First Female Ascents (FFAs) are a hot topic thanks to Paige Claassen, who insisted that her recent ascent of The Bleeding (5.14a), in Mill Creek, Utah, not be labeled as an FFA—even though it was.
“Personally, I think first female ascents are irrelevant,” she stated in an interview with Rock and Ice. “Some women find them really motivating … but there are some cases in which a woman hasn’t even tried the route before.”
One of those women who find FFAs motivating is Sasha DiGiulian. She has amassed many of them herself, and also leveraged some of those FFAs to earn sponsors and other professional opportunities. On social media, DiGiulian asserted: ”FFA are significant because they flag the progress of women’s achievements in climbing.”
I think that both Paige and Sasha have really valid points. The First Female Ascent is a paradox—it’s at once pushing women forward and simultaneously holding them back.
Are Women Capable of Climbing As Hard As Men?
The answer to this question really strikes at the heart of the First Female Ascent paradox. In most other physical sports, women and men play in separate arenas. One way rock climbing is unique is that both sexes get to perform on the exact same “playing field,” and therefore comparisons are inevitably drawn between the two sexes.
Compared to almost all other athletic endeavors, rock climbing might just be the least sex-biased of them all! In fact, there’s no other sport that I can think of in which both men and women have achieved such close performance results on the exact same playing field.
So, are women capable of climbing as hard as men? Yes.
Climbing isn’t just about pure power, or endurance, or strength-to-weight, or wing span, or boldness, or creativity, or vision, or problem-solving. It draws from ALL of those things at once, which somehow really evens things out, especially as both sexes are forced to rely on their own personal strengths, and thus arrive at their own completely unique solutions to overcome the exact same route or problem. (How cool is that?)
Bottom line, in the sport of rock climbing, women are crushing.
Empirically, women are climbing just as hard as men today. Go to any sport crag or bouldering destination and you’ll likely see a scene in which both men and women are sharing projects, if not beta, too.
According to the “official” record books, women have climbed nearly, but not quite, as hard as men: Women have climbed 5.15a sport routes and V14 boulders, just two grades below the hardest ascents ever achieved by fewer than a handful of men.
Josune Bereziartu became the first woman to climb 5.15a with Bimbaluna, considered a soft 5.15a or 5.14d/15a.
When Josune Bereziartu climbed Bimbaluna (a “soft” 5.15a given the slash grade of 5.14d/15a) in 2005, 5.15b hadn’t even been established yet, meaning that this Basque powerhouse was performing right at the same level as Chris Sharma and a few other dudes who had also ticked 5.15a.
The greatest ascent of the 1990s was achieved by a woman. Lynn Hill’s first free ascent of the Nose was significant for many reasons, but primarily it was the first free ascent of the most famous rock climb in the world and it was hardest big-wall free climb yet established—AND it was first done by a woman.
Professional women climbers also have it pretty good. In a society where women still earn just 78 cents for every dollar that a man earns, climbing has no perceived glass ceiling. The most successful professional climber of the 1990s was a woman: Lynn Hill. And the most successful professional climber today, Sasha DiGiulian, is also a woman. If anything, being a woman seems to be an advantage as a professional climber—opening up opportunities that aren’t available to men.
The FFA Paradox
Indeed, it hasn’t always been the case that women are considered equal to men in climbing, which is still a ways off from the ideal 50-50 participation demographic that we’d all love to see. To not acknowledge that a woman, in being the first of her sex to claim an ascent of some route, has achieved something noteworthy, somehow disparages the greater context in which that ascent took place, which is that many women believe they still have a long ways to go in terms of proving what they can achieve on the rock and earning the respect that they deserve.
On the other hand, could it be that by calling special attention to fact that a woman became the first to climb such-and-such route, we are unintentionally reinforcing the very stereotype that we are trying to move away from? In other words, if the underlying context is that this woman achieved something only after a man or men achieved that same accomplishment before her, then aren’t we implicitly reinforcing the concept that women will always be a few steps behind the dudes?
Ashima Shiraishi became the second female to climb 9a/9a+ this year with her ascent of Open Your Mind Direct, Santa Linya, Spain.
Feminism and Labels
Part of the feminist movement of the 1960s was to move away from the feminine forms of vocational words. Waitress, actress, hostess, etc., became obsolete as women asserted that they can be whatever they want: servers, actors, hosts, doctors, Supreme Court justices, etc.
For example, today you would never call someone a “woman doctor”—assuming that you’re not referring, albeit witlessly, to an OB/GYN—because it implies that it’s somehow unusual for a woman to be a doctor—i.e., “Aren’t they supposed to be nurses?”
Either way, in 2015, it’s often considered insulting to have your sex attached to your profession—and this goes both ways, e.g., “male nurse.”
This same thing can apply to race, too. Barak Obama is the first black president of the United States, which is obviously remarkable if you consider that it wasn’t that long ago that black people were segregated from white society in America, not to mention the whole slavery thing several decades before that.
You could argue that reporters are doing a disservice to the black community and society at large by not acknowledging Obama’s race every time he’s mentioned in the press. Loosely applying Sasha’s FFA argument to Obama, by acknowledging both Obama’s race, and that he is the first of that race to reach the highest office in the land, we will be reminded of all the progress that we’ve made in terms of living in a just society.
On the other hand, if the New York Times, at every mention of our president, wrote, “first black president Obama” or even just “black president Obama,” it would kinda seem a little racist, right? Because Obama is a president, who happens to be black.
And to bring that back around to climbing, isn’t Paige a badass climber (who happens to be a woman) who redpointed The Bleeding?
When Do FFAs Matter?
Context, timing and intention are all important when it comes to the applying the First Female Ascent honorific. In many cases, FFAs are arbitrary and coincidental. For example, when it just so happens that a woman has never tried to climbed such-and-such route before, is it always automatically noteworthy when the first woman comes around and actually ticks a route? Or course, the answer is: it depends, but maybe not, especially when there are so many strong women out there climbing at the same level as their male counterparts.
Consider the parallel with second ascents (a genus to which FFAs belong): This year, Ethan Pringle nabbed a significant second ascent, of Jumbo Love, the first 5.15b in the world. Ethan will go down in the history books for being the second person to send Jumbo Love, confirming the grade of 5.15b, too.
However, does this one noteworthy second ascent automatically make all second ascents important? Of course not. If I am out in the wilderness with my friend, and we are developing some totally random cliff, and I get the opportunity to do the second ascent of Choss Nugget (5.10b), simply because I am the only other person within a 50-mile radius who happens to have a harness and climbing shoes, certainly that entitles me to claim a second ascent. But will I be putting it on my resume? Will anyone ever care? Probably not.
So, what are the circumstances in which an FFA might be a worthy honorific? It’s easy to imagine that quintessential situation: Picture a route or boulder that has a hard grade, that has thus far only been climbed by a few men, and that has been tried by various other notable women.
One example that comes to mind is Emily Harrington’s FFA of the 7 P.M. Show (5.14a) in Rifle. This is a classic, well-known rock climb in Colorado that Bobbi Bensman, one of the strongest female climbers of her generation, had come notoriously close to redpointing in the 1990s. Also, no woman had climbed a 5.14 in Rifle before. So when Emily sent the 7 P.M. Show, it was a big deal due to the the context of the bro-centric culture that plagued Rifle for many years, one in which a few climbers truly believed that no woman would ever climb 5.14 here. Emily’s ascent was also largely notable due to the history of Bobbi’s legendary campaign to send this route. Emily’s ascent is a great example of an ascent that deserves recognition as a First Female Ascent.
But, again, this is partly due to the sexist stereotypes that lingered around Rifle in the late 1990s. And aren’t we mostly past all of that by now??
In General, FFAs Hold Women Back
My opinion is that FFAs are, in general, doing more harm than good. The reason why is because we’ve assigned an outsized value to every FFA that we hear about from the very women climbers who themselves are attaching these honorifics to their own achievements.
The problem with making FFAs a such a big deal is that perhaps women aren’t as motivated to go off and envision their own first ascents. Rather, they are taking the easier path of repeating routes because they know that they will be celebrated for being the first woman to climb those routes, however circumstantial that ascent may be.
If the top women climbers are interested in pushing the limits, they should be spending more time seeking out their own first ascents. By following in men’s footsteps and seeking out FFAs, women are automatically setting themselves up to always be one step behind.
I recently interviewed Daniel Woods about next-level grades, and he provided me with this observation: “The harder lines out there require specialized strengths,” he said. “A line that is next level for Dave, Jimmy, Nalle, or Ondra could be impossible for me and vice versa. It is inspiring to me how this works.”
This is an important concept: Routes and boulders at the upper end of the grade scale are going to be specialized—meaning, they are going to reflect the particular strengths of the first ascentionist who is drawn to that line. This applies to all differences, including those of the sexes.
Beth Rodden on the first ascent of Meltdown (5.14c). Photo: Corey Rich.
Beth Rodden on the first ascent of Meltdown (5.14c). Photo: Corey Rich.
Take Beth Rodden’s testpiece Meltdown (5.14c), which might be one of the hardest first ascents ever completed by a woman. The route shut down Tommy Caldwell, in part because of finger size—in fact, it’s still awaiting a second ascent, not to mention a first male ascent. This is a great example of how a first ascent can both reflect female-specific strengths, and be cutting edge as it is one of the hardest trad pitches in the world.
There are so many different variables that go into what makes a route tough. There are absolutely 5.15b and 5.15c routes and V15 and V16 boulders out there, which haven’t been done or even envisioned yet, that would suit a woman’s unique skill set as a climber. And there are women who are capable of climbing these grades: especially Ashima Shiraishi and Alex Puccio. But men aren’t going to be the ones to put these specialized routes up. It has to be women: who are strong mentally, strong physically and who possess the vision and motivation to see new routes and actually establish them.
As high-end climbing becomes increasingly specialized, as Daniel noted, it’s super important for women to start being the ones to establish their own next-level routes.
I don’t believe that women need to first repeat Jumbo Love, Change or La Dura Dura, to push themselves into the 5.15b and 5.15c realms (although doing so would certainly provide them with a context around which they can rate their own FAs).
I think the top women climbers in the world would be better off focusing more on doing cutting-edge first ascents, and downplaying, but not entirely ignoring, the significance of their repeats.
Why settle for a First Female Ascent when you can be a rad female who achieves a badass First Ascent?
I disagree. My counter:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/libby-sauter/the-advantage-of-the-female-first-ascent/10153107619870965
The Advantage of the Female First Ascent
Libby Sauter·Monday, October 5, 2015
In response to Andrew Bisharat’s article “The Curse of the Female First Ascent”.
As Cam McKenzie Ring , mother of two and former YOSAR teammate floats my 5.12 project then carries on into the 5.13 extension, my palms sweat and tingle, eager to try the route again. Cam and I are about the same size and she made that cross through move near the top look effortless. Watching her warm up on my project while her two young boys play below, I’m inspired to try harder. It’s infinitely easier to relate to her challenges on the glassy limestone route than to a boy whose forearms are the size of my thigh.
That ability to identify with and look up to Cam is a large part of why I believe FFA’s currently have merit in the climbing world.
I hold the female speed record on the Nose of El Capitan and this distinction has benefited me professionally. Still, my female friends and I that have been chasing and trading that title for the last 5 years exemplify the beneficial, constructive power of female specific designations. In just 5 years, we’ve seen the fastest female time up El Capitan fall 5 separate times, dropping over 7.5 hours from 12:15 to 4:43.
The motivation behind this friendly, competitive game of ‘tag the tree’ on the Nose can personally be traced back to the fun of chasing a title, to the joy of raising the standards of my gender, not to mention the pure pleasure of climbing the NIAD with some of my best friends. The women of Yosemite collectively advancing climbing on El Capitan embody the motivational surge that female specific designations can propagate.
Paige Classen’s refusal to shout “FFA!” to the climbing media with her ascent of The Bleeding doesn’t signify that FFA’s are obsolete. It means that not every FFA is newsworthy to the climbing community as a whole. When a 4 star, chipped route at a small crag, that’s not a new grade for an American female, gets sent, it’s an admirable and impressive FFA, worthy of congratulations and beers back at camp. But we can hold the national presses. However, when you start to get up to the upper tier of climbing grades or routes that have historical significance (like Mayan Smith Gobat’s FFA of Punks in the Gym, the worlds first 5.14/8b+), it benefits our sport, not just my gender to log that history. Keeping track of which women have done which impressive feats can motivate people on a large scale, the same way that I get motivated to send my proj by watching Cam hike it first thing in the morning. The FFA designation proudly marks the progress and achievement of women in climbing.
Men and women have different bodies. We have different strength capabilities, different muscle and fat distributions. It isn’t a bad thing. It isn’t something we should be ashamed of or hide or try to ignore. We are just different. Many women out climb men, but on the whole men far out climb women. Look at the 8a.nu rankings. The first female appears at number 38 on the list. Until women are climbing at those upper grades with the same frequency that men are, until women are climbing El Cap as regularly as the men are, FFA’s are notable and I hope to keep hearing about them.
And Paige, if we ever meet, drinks and hi-fives on me for an amazing send! Respect.
THOUGHTS??
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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There's only one Lynn Hill, so...
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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A little like the separation of sexes in gymnastics. Women will probably never be able to compete with men on the rings, but there is no reason they should be restricted from doing so on the horizontal bar. Certain kinds of climbing moves may well favor one sex over another.
An ongoing discussion.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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I'd be curious - how do first ascents (done by women, but not FFA) stack up in terms of relative participation numbers of *serious hardpersons*? (e.g. not me!)
Obviously, there are lots of female climbers today, but that wasn't always the case, so it would have to be index to the era too.
I'll admit, it annoys the sh*t out of me when the press dismisses female accomplishments by saying "but her fingers were smaller, so"... (Beth Rodden, Lynn Hill). You never hear about Sharma's accomplishments being dismissed (but he is more powerful) or potter's (but he's so tall), etc. Which is to say - EVERY climber has strengths, yes, but those particulars seem to only be pointed out when it is a woman.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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When Lynn Hill did the Nose, FFA meant first free ascent.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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Small fingers change the game far more often than reach does.
The Nose as a free route is undeniably small finger friendly on both crux pitches, and undeniably additionally small body friendly on the changing corners pitch, for example.
Calling power an inherent advantage is a stretch. Finger dimension is impossible to change, while power can be trained for, and achieved by anyone. Some climbers have a genetic advantage in the power realm, but if you're going there, the average general genetic power difference between men and women rears its sexist head, and true equality is questionable.
Oh please, it is exactly this kind of BS comment that annoys the sh*t out of me. I am a short, small person, and I have to make multiple extra moves on Every. Single. Pitch. It can easily turn a 5.9 into a 5.11. Female elite climbers - who are often really small - just might be *more* skilled than the male elite climbers because of height.
EVERY climb has some body type which has an advantage, but for some reason, we always hear about the Nose and not other phenomenal climbs that men have done!
 Height is impossible to change
Finger size is impossible to change
Power, although trainable, is also genetic - and gender specific. Ever notice how elite male climbers come in all sizes, from small to tall to medium to powerful, but elite (5.14) female climbers are all really tiny?
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velvet!
Trad climber
La Cochitaville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 5, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
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Just like not all FA's are worthy of full spreads in the Alpinist, it shouldn't be heralded as a miracle every time a woman ties in.
But just as some FA's due deserve a press release, some FFA's do as well.
And as a friend pointed out - FFA's are great motivators but they don't have to be our stopping point for where we set our sights.
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overwatch
climber
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Way too many words...jesus!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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FFA = First Free Ascent
If you want to write a magazine article about first female ascents, you have to come up with a different abbreviation. It's going to confuse newer climbers when they look in the guidebooks and see the FFA of some wall was by Ron, John, and John (to take the E. Face of Washington Column as an example…).
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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My last girlfriend consistently crushed twice as hard as me on the rocks
now ice climbing was a different story
we all have our strengths
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Stop it, Moose.
The chest-beating is hurting my tender eardrums.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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I think my wife is going to have an awfully long wait....
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Aaaaahhhhhh...the World has righted itself.
Thank you, Warbler!
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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THOUGHTS??
If I comprehend correctly, the author of the linked article (Andrew Bisharat) points out that some females settle for the First Female Ascent INSTEAD of going out and doing own First Ascents or First Free Ascents. Which is not as relevant to advancing climbing as a sport, unless it is a milestone climb (such as first female ascent of the Dawn Wall, First Female to free solo Astroman+Rostrum IAD, First Female Ascent of a confirmed 5.15b)...but IMO climbs like that deserve some sort of press no matter what is the sex of the person doing it, even if it will be a third ascent. It is cutting edge technical rock climbing. Settling for the first female ascent rather than advancing skills to perform own first ascent of the same grade, or a harder grade, would be holding yourself back, IMO.
While you and your female friends cut the FEMALE speed record on the Nose...how many of you are trying to break speed records on other El Cap routes? How many El Cap routes have speed records by all female teams or mixed teams with the female pulling own weight? Is concentrating on the Fastest Female time on the Nose keeping some of the females from setting own speed records on El Cap no matter what the sex is? Maybe? Whatever the case is, setting own personal best is bad ass. If that motivates you to step out of your personal comfort zone and push your personal limits, all the power to you!.
The point that I see....if MORE females look past the sex difference and concentrate on pairing up with other guys or girls it will lead to more OWN records, new routes and free climbing new routes. As far as I can see that would be creating history, without settling for the first female ascent or the fastest female time.
Some people find these First Female Ascents inspiring. Some find it inspiring when a 16 year old asthmatic climbs Mt. Everest. I think it is important to concentrate on what an individual climber is excited about. There will be others around who are using the first female ascent as a way to self promote. Some will look past it and do first female ascents of notable climbs and brush it off as no more than a personal achievement. Every climb that we complete is an achievement, no matter what sex are we representing.
Males and females are physically different. Children and grown ups are physically different too. Differences can benefit or damage an individual's chances of sending a particular route. Some routes are easier for shorter people, some are easier for taller people, lighter people etc. I think all of you should calm down and avoid blaming your physique for not sending some route that you think is easier for a friend because he/she is 3 inches taller. Dropping 10 lbs can help 90% of climbers out there to perform better, but who wants to do that?! It is always someone else's fault.
If someone cares, personally, I don't really give a f*#k if it is 5.10c, 5.11d, 5.12a or 5.8+. I have about four major ratings:
I CAN do it,
I CAN do it, barely, but I suck at it so I wan't to get better at this style
I CAN'T do it and I want to be able to do it in the future
I CAN'T do it, this route sucks dick and I don'e ever want to see it again
...well, I do give a f*#k a little. Giving a f*#k usually helps to keep yourself to a higher standard...send on brosefs and brosefines ;)
Women should stay home and cook and wait for their men to come back from their proud first ascends!
And settle for the first female ascents, so that I could get all the first ascents! :)
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Many scientific studies suggest... C'mon moose, those are just theories.
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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I've been a feminist since the age of 8, when I started to notice the rampant sexism around me in everyday life. Sexism and its oft partner, discrimination, put up real barriers for women in a lot of arenas. Keeping track of that and pointing that out in those areas can and does often lead to change when the barriers are removed.
But even though there are still some poor pitiable sexists in climbing, how can that pose a barrier for women in climbing in this day and age? I don't see it.
It's because I'm a feminist that I have never been a fan of the designation "first female ascent". It has always struck me as condescending. Kind of like, oh look, you have that handicap of being a woman and you still managed to do that. Pat pat on the head.
But it's a big world. To each their own. If others find it motivating or inspiring, fine.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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I am sure t have overstepped here
Tradman-thank you, this is his partner on her 50th birthday Before climbing! So not pumped.
I hope she doesn't mind and thank you again Tradman Yes, she deserves to be on the old JB most ripped thread (where I robbed the snap from)
That's a crusher at 50! (almost 8 years ago)
I think it makes the point that given the drive women can climb at as hard a level for as long as men. I know that some climbs favour different body types, the strength to weight ratio
Favour the women, mostly.
Oriental /Asian women - Asian ballerinas - proffesional dancers in general . . .
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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I agree with Vitaliy.
This is why it is annoying to *always* hear about how Lynn or Beth did some First Free Ascent because they have small fingers.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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It's because I'm a feminist that I have never been a fan of the designation "first female ascent". It has always struck me as condescending. Kind of like, oh look, you have that handicap of being a woman and you still managed to do that. Pat pat on the head.
Thanks for saying something I could not articulate well enough without coming across as a dick.
In the climbing world we all have the same tools. The rock will humble you and teach you lessons no matter what gender you represent.
In the original article I see the encouragement to go for bigger things. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with getting a pat on the back for getting a first female ascent of something bad ass too..with the sport of climbing getting popular in the mainstream, the mass opinion on the subject will change.
Hmmm time to finish the irrelevant to own progress discussion and pull on some sweet crimps...attempting a first Ukrainian - American male with the height of 6'2 ascent of a yellow v4. Big day. If someone wants to make a documentary about it, make sure to email me.
This is why it is annoying to *always* hear about how Lynn or Beth did some First Free Ascent because they have small fingers.
Welcome to the internet. Every insecure prick can downplay first free ascent of the Nose or a giant first ascent on Rupal Face. No sh#t Steve House did it, he had a rope gun! If I had one, I'd do it too, BFD! :) Ashima cranks because she is 13 and her fingers are small. Tommy cranks because he is naturally gifted. Alex soloed crazy sh#t because he is insane. If I had those qualities I'd do the same shit! Except it is easy to talk sh#t and hard to obtain the necessary skills. My only advice, is to ignore the insecure people with ridiculous opinions. I am sure Lynn Hill does not care, she proved everything that truly matters with actions that speak louder than those few irrelevant haters (don't like to use this word, but seems appropriate in this particular case). :)
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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even though there are still some poor pitiable sexists in climbing, how can that pose a barrier for women in climbing in this day and age? I don't see it.
I think this is true. Most of sexism I've run into while climbing not so much a barrier as an annoyance. Some of it's subtle, like if I'm climbing with a guy, another guy will almost always direct his comments to my partner. When it's not subtle...those become running jokes with my climbing partners and I've noticed it usually happens when I'm climbing with another woman. I still chuckle when I think about them, and recognize that's a luxury of being in a younger generation.
I would love to just be a climber when I'm climbing and, usually, I am. However, since there is still gender bias, if there are women who get pumped and inspired to push themselves by other women doing the FFemAs, then I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. I'd be curious to know more about the external coverage of FFemAs versus FFAs/FAs is for women.
Is it annoying to you that small fingers undeniably make some routes easier, just as fat fingers make others easier?
Personally, neither annoys me. I agree with V and others that you just need to climb your body type. The only thing that annoys me is that it's more likely for a conversation about a lady crusher to center around this b.s than the fact she is a crusher.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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size of parts?
that's always an issue, but I'm not whining when a TM Herbert fist crack is stacks for me... a Lynn Hill tips, well I've gotta really work on that...
but to the OP, the designation "First Female Ascent" will be used, curse or benefit, until it is no longer newsworthy. As Warbler points out, historically this is something of note and exceptional, and it will attract attention, readership, web clicks (read: advertising revenue) even in this day and age.
The number of female members of FA teams is increasing with time, and probably within a decade or so it will be equal to the male members of FA teams, and at that point it will hardly be noticeable, probably not newsworthy, and likely not to generate that much more attention (read: not worth it for advertising revenue).
Saying that the future will be like the past is definitely flawed. There is no difference that I can see in the ability of female climbers to participate in FAs, Sue McDevitt, Linda Jarit and others have a huge number of FAs under their belts in the Valley alone. The trend for female first ascents will increase as well.
Whether or not the FA team wishes to categorize that FA as "female" or "male" is irrelevant, really, as it is the Climbing press (writ large) that determines the notoriety.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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No, I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
It's annoying that:
A) EVERY Freakin' Time People Talk about Lynn on the Nose, or Beth on her 5.14c - they also feel the need to point out the small fingers. It's like an asterisk FFA*, (FFA* but the fingers were small, so don't be so impressed). It's thinly veiled mansplaining why a woman beat those "Superior Dude Climbers".
CONTRASTED WITH
B) Some guy does a FFA, and the conversation is NOT dominated by the having to explain to everyone that he only did it because, ya know, the holds were far apart, or the fist crack was really wide, or whatever.
Tommy Caldwell himself addressed THIS VERY ISSUE when he climbed the Nose.
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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The only thing that annoys me is that it's more likely for a conversation about a lady crusher to center around this b.s than the fact she is a crusher.
^^^^ This, exactly.
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couchmaster
climber
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I can't answer your question if calling a thing a "First Female Ascent" is good or denigrating to women, but it's a damned sure thing that yours and Mayan Libby-Gobats super fast ascent of the nose is/was outstandingly impressive on it's own. It wasn't that long ago that the Nose record was slower than that. When someone climbs the nose that fast (in the 4 hour range), it's newsworthy, man, woman or child. When anyone climbs 2 El Cap routes in a day, like you 2 again, thats just freaking amazing. VERY newsworthy. In that regard, I think it's up to you guys if you want first female ascents or fastest female ascents to be a recorded category or not, I suspect most of us are fine with it.
Congrats on kicking ass (fast) Libby.
By the way, FFA means First Free Ascent, and it should remain that way. IE, Lynn Hill did the FFA - First Free Ascent of the Nose. Maybe FFFA is better in that regards. But would Hill than have a FFA or a FFFA or could they be combined into FFAFFFFA. Snuck in an extra F for Freakin' in there. See?
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WBraun
climber
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Guys were talking to each other long before females were crushing on the scene about body anatomy advantage and disadvantage on certain climbs/pitches.
The start of butterballs was a perfect example.
Small fingers have advantage at the start.
Got nothing to do with male or female ....
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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size of parts?
It's how you use it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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well, I'm a guy and as a group we are obsessed with part size...
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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Lol, I think women are more worried about skill.
And obviously I'm talking about climbing (cough, cough). I definitely need to improve on fist and off-width more because my hands are small!
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Most of sexism I've run into while climbing not so much a barrier as an annoyance.
I used to find it an annoyance when I was in my 30s and 40s , Viv.r.e, when every time I went out climbing it was like that. But for a long time now, it just makes me smile. I was trying to think why that would be and I think it's partly because I have so many wonderful feminist men in my life, as climbing partners, friends, relatives and my fantastic husband, that the few dinosaurs that I run into these days seem like a joke.
In my lifetime, it feels like there really has been a big shift in general in how men relate to women as partners in climbing (and in life). Progress!
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Compared to almost all other athletic endeavors, rock climbing might just be the least sex-biased of them all! In fact, there’s no other sport that I can think of in which both men and women have achieved such close performance results on the exact same playing field.
Don't let Warbler see this
Got nothing to do with male or female ....
yup has to do with fingercracks, the #1 assessment tool for finding who has the greatest natural ability for all forms of rock climbing.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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In my lifetime, it feels like there really has been a big shift in general in how men relate to women as partners in climbing (and in life). Progress!
I think this is true, also. But as a feminist man, I acknowledge that this was not the case, and not long ago. Women were definitely thought of a a second class. I think the publicity of First Female Ascents have been instrumental in changing people's minds to a degree.
It is still a male dominated sport, from what I see at the crags. But there is change, and part of change is seeing others tread ground where you'd like to go.
I suspect we are in the midst of a real shift. Part of the issue is the respective participation. When you've got a base to your pyramid that is much much bigger, it should not be a surprise that the top is higher. But that base can expand, and the dynamics WILL change.
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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I think it's partly because I have so many wonderful feminist men in my life, as climbing partners, friends, relatives and my fantastic husband, that the few dinosaurs that I run into these days seem like a joke.
Big +1. I think just the fact that people are talking about gender in a climbing forum is an indicator of the progress you're talking about.
Haha, @ phylp and others--I would love to hear some of your stories for chuckles/head shaking. One time a lady climber friend and I were finishing up a climb (she led) that was in a chimney. As we walked out of the chimney we got asked by a male climber in a concerned voice if we were lost as we stood 3 feet from the trail. He only dug himself deeper after we told him that we just finished climbing. What made it even funnier is that I had just finished the sierra high route, part of it by myself with only a map and compass. We were polite, but as soon as he was gone, we were on the ground laughing.
Another time someone asked a lady partner and I if we had accidentally wandered away from the visitors center (he was very concerned that we had come such a long way). Again, as soon as he walked away we were laughing and repeated what he said as a joke for days after...always dangerous to make assumptions about people regardless of gender!
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Hi Warbler,
Sexism is often manifested by the assumption that women in general are incapable of doing something. So maybe the man has never experienced that a woman can do that, or their experience is that women are NOT capable of it. They had that direct experience in the past so in that present moment they think it's still true.
Here is a non-climbing example: I still remember sitting with the high school guidance counselor selecting classes for my freshman year in HS. There were a lot of science classes on my list and he asked me why. I said I was possibly thinking of premed major in college. And he said "This is a pretty hard course of study for a girl". And that guy was looking at the fact that I had straight As and my PSAT scores were in the top 0.5%.
So in my own personal climbing experience, going back to the late 80s and 90s, if I was climbing with a man and we walked up to something and there were other male climbers around, the assumption from others was always that the male was going to be leading, that the man was the better climber, and that the man had more experience. This was expressed in direct comments to the male which revealed the mindset. Or, seeing I was going to lead something, would offer all kinds of beta to help me with what they obviously thought was going to be a scary struggle for me. When it was something I could do in my sleep. At that time there were far fewer female climbers so it's not like it was meant to be nasty, it's just the assumption of incompetence and inexperience.
I never found it particularly egregious, just kind of annoying, because at that point in my life my ego wanted the recognition that I was a Real Climber (™). The sexism in my corporate science career was far more insidious and tiresome. Now I don't really give a sh*t what anyone else thinks! And it doesn't happen so much anymore.
Hey! Nowadays it's the ageism more than the sexism! My friends Jack and Chris told me the story about how they had just gotten down from climbing something and some 20-something came up to the routes and said "Oh, how nice it is to see (old implied) folks like you still getting out".
Good night now, checking out for the day.
phyl
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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It should be like public restrooms. Designate women's climbing areas separate from men.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Wow, Bisharat really has a way with words: take a word and line up several thousand after it!
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CCT
Trad climber
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I believe this sums up the article most succinctly:
Thank you to everyone, female and male, who loves climbing enough to deal with crappy pay, high risk, and a lifestyle that involves living in a van down by the river eating Cliff bars and sleeping on sponsored ropes, just to climb hard enough to inspire the rest of us.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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"What's a Z-clip?"
I'd never heard the term and I told him so. I rarely climb in a gym.
He's all "it's when you reach down and grab the rope below your last protection bolt, instead of above it, and pull the rope up to clip it into the next bolt, causing the rope to zig zag up and down between the two bolts."
Gotcha old man!
I said "when I started climbing that was just called being an idiot."
Hahaha that is funny !
People often question my competence on popular trails, peaks and climbs. Last month two guys were asking if my friend and i were lost since it was about 30 minutes before the sunset. "The sun is going down you know!" For f*#k's sake, we are on a high sierra trail, and have headlamps...
At lover's leap every climber would question your competence no matter if you are a guy or a girl...Seems like that's what is popular with noobs after they feel semi solid leading 5.8.
A lot of climbers assume that I don't know how to crack climb well after I tell them I am from the Bay Area. Especially if it is an older local climber at a crag. Multiple times guys that fit the above description would go off recommending good beginner 5.5 to 5.7s that would be a better warm up. Not sure if my or anyone else's ego should be bruised by such assumptions or suggestions, since you never know if these people are concerned about someone who has never climbed at a crag getting over their head. Or maybe it is their way to make small talk. Or maybe they are trolling you? Who knows. Don't think, or at least hope, most people out there are not trying to come off as dick for sake of being dicks.
Funny story a friend told me last weekend involved a male guide in Europe asking her 'who is going to put the rope up for you two? Do you have a guide or a husband?' Apparently to him it was a surprise two girls could do it without a male. Maybe it is rare to see two females climbing a long route where he guides, but why come across as a dick by assuming?
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Here I thought FFA was First Free Ascent, and just left it at that.
I think if a community wants to focus on Female First Ascent Designation, and it makes them feel more empowered, go get it.
As a female n00b climber, I don't really pay attention to it. Does this motivate me to climb better and harder? Nope.
What motivates me? Climbing with fun people who show up, man or woman.
I've been lucky in that I've been able to climb alongside amazingly competent, beautiful, and sexy women who all out climb me in every way, and suffer me to tag along in my androgynous rags. Is this inspiring? I'm more inspired by the fun times had together than gender.
At the local gym, I see plenty of women representing alongside the guys. It's great! I'm sure that many of them are inspired by top female climbers.
What I don't understand is with women more and more in the high level climbing spotlight, why don't I experience more gender equality in climbing firsthand?
By far, the male climbers I know are far more likely to take me up on my offer of 'lets go climbing'. Why? I have no idea. Why don't I climb with more women, and represent the Sista Powah? When I tell my female friends who 'climb' - "if you wanna climb, drop me a line" I never hear from them. When I ask them "wanna go out to a cool crag today?" they have yet to say "Yup!". The guy friends who have taken me up on my offer don't rack up to more than 10, but the few guys who have far outnumber the women who still rack up at zero.
This doesn't have anything to do physiological differences between the genders. So far, personally collected data shows that they are simply less likely to show up to climb with me. I'm sure this is different with other people, but why the noticeable discrepancy in my personal experience given that so many prominent female climbers are supposedly inspiring women to go higher?
Thanks!
Cheers
LS
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Um LS, the guys may be looking for more than a climbing partner. Just a theory.
edit: NTTIAWWT
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Um LS, the guys may be looking for more than a climbing partner. Just a theory.
Assuming that guy is into you, because he invited you to climb....hmmmmm reminds me of males who assume that female climbers at the crag are noobs. Maybe it is an ego thing? A lot of people want to feel above others by creating self-validating assumptions...not picking on you Crimpergirl, I know you are kidding, but many do assume (at times correctly). Only thing I know for a fact is that I exist. Everything else is opened to interpretation. Assumed my significantly older or married female partners are not into me. Assumed some female partners were into me too. At times you are right, at times you are wrong. People are people and people be crazy...especially me. :)
"They climb really hard because their dick is tiny and they want something to feel good about. I lead (get frightened while hang dogging most of them) 5.9 because that is pure fun!" -typical noob
"She sent that climb because she has small fingers and weights next to nothing, if I was that small, Id hike it too." -Indian creek bro talk
"Oh you girls should not get on this 5.10+ route, it is a local test piece, the appropriate 5.9s are just around the corner." -the local
"Oh you flashed it? I heard the climb is soft for the grade, and you did not do the right sequence at the crux. Jamming it makes it easier, maybe it was a 5.10b for you? Not 5.11!" -The brosef
"Did you see that guy struggle up the 5.11a? I warmed up on it!" -the female cragger
and so on...people create assumptions about random climbers they know nothing about in order to boost their fragile ego. Funny thing is that I heard multiple variations of that sort of talk at crags multiple times. I should gather a journal for this sort of talk, could be a gem after 10 years of recording.
There is much more to climbing than climbing hard sport, slab, OW, ice, aid and so on. Everyone has some strengths and some weaknesses. It is important to focus on yourself, the daily grind, moment and what we desire instead of comparing our abilities to the people next to us. I usually don't get along well with competitive people that make climbing into some sort of a competition. Refuse to climb with guys and girls of that kind, even if they 'crush.' Unless it is an encouraging relationship where their drive is aimed to mutual benefit. In perfect world there are no assumptions or stereotypes. Too bad we don't live in one. Or maybe it is a good thing. The perfect world would be a boring place!
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I certainly don't feel picked on. And I'm not one to think men are pigs (or women are piglets). People are people. It was just a theory I offered as to the question LS posed. Further, I don't think there is anything wrong with it if that is what is happening regardless of whether the partnership is M/F, F/M, M/M or F/F (or even M/M/F or F/F/M etc.). :)
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overwatch
climber
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Yeah I don't think Sasha is holding her mouth right.
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velvet!
Trad climber
La Cochitaville
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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A few interesting points out there for sure..
Why do we separate the genders in all other sports? Surely men and women are capable of equal skills in badminton, say. Or surfing like in the above example. Is it just historical and latent sexism??
I want to be against the first female ascent designation. I want to say we are the same. But I can't get passed the fact that muscles play a large role in climbing and men form them with less fat and get cut easier on average than women do. Yes we are lighter, yes we have smaller fingers (again on average), but on a whole - looking at who climbs hardest in the world these days - the presence of lean muscle seems to outweigh those small fingers or strength to weight ratios...am I wrong? am I sexist against my own gender? (seriously!)
Name me a sport, any sport where women on average do better than men. Running? Almost but not quite. Surfing? I don't know. Anyone..??
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cleo
Social climber
wherever you go, there you are
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On the original question, curse or benefit?
It's all good... I enjoy hearing about ladies who crush, even FFFA. Women are more represented in climbing then ever, and who knows where that will end up - maybe someday it won't matter, but today, the guys have had a huge head start, so FFFA is still interesting.
I'd still love to see a statistical analysis. Some grad student somewhere?
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couchmaster
climber
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Yeah, Kevin said it. Women use to steer clear of this game. Then it got safer and more social and they showed up in force. Now they are breaking out and up all over everywhere. Real nice to see. I'd bet women still only make up 30-40% (or less) of the folks who climb, but that's better than the 3% or whatever it use to be.
Like @ 2 percent of this:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Why do we separate the genders in all other sports? Because the much higher average testosterone (T) levels in males translate to stronger muscles, stronger bones, and the ability to recover faster from training.
This is for (nearly all) sports, where muscles are important, like running.
For the same reason, taking steroids increases strength and provides an athletic advantage (in most but not all sports).
"The normal T range for men is 10-35 nmol/L (nanomole per liter), with an average in the low twenties, and for women it is 0.35-2.0 nmol/L, with an average of about 1.5."
from
http://www.letsrun.com/news/2014/09/brief-history-intersex-athletes-sport/
(This is a great article exploring how T differences can affect performance, applied to the rare cases of intersex athletes like Caster Semenya).
In long distance swimming, women have an advantage due to their thicker layer of subcutaneous fat, so they expend less energy keeping warm.
Warbler makes many good points.
It's true that in climbing strength-to-weight ratio is important, which reduces the male advantage of the high T level.
Libby Sauter's point about lean muscle is very relevant here, though.
And as Warbler noted, finger/hand/foot sizes vary by gender (and by person) and can be an advantage or disadvantage.
As for whether gender matters in climbing news, it seems to in many cases, but of course not all.
For example, it's not unusual to report that a person is the nth woman to redpoint a 9a.
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/ashima-shiraishi-may-be-first-female-to-send-5-15a
But if the climb is not that hard, being the first female is not notable. Drawing the line for "not that hard" is subjective.
Some sponsored climbers may be claiming FFFAs that are not really newsworthy, trying to keep the brand visible and keep that sponsorship.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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as per the original question of curse or benefit, i'm going to go with, at this particular point in history:
it's both.
from my perspective it's primarily a benefit to the collective as a whole: we as humans have a long history of deep rooted sexism and any action that celebrates and encourages female achievement is intrinsically beneficial to the collective as a whole...
otoh...
for the individual it has the potential to be a curse, as these types of designations might unconsciously hamper a single female individual from achieving their full potential. i.e. if someone assumes that they are requiring of a separate category would they achieve what they would if they didn't?
and so from this perspective it's like righting any historical wrong...
there is no ideal answer as the world isn't ideal...
and so from that perspective, given the sexist history that we are still in the process of remedying, i'd also argue that the fffa is currently an overall benefit.
because that's the trick: given climbing doesn't necessarily have the same drivers, that are found in other sports, that determine that elite males will necessarily outperform the most elite females, i don't think there is a definitive answer as to whether the historical outperformance of the most elite male climbers as compared to the most elite female climbers is solely physiological or whether it is primarily cultural...
if it is primarily physiological than the separate designation will always be a positive...
if not, then at some point it will become irrelevant.
time will tell, because assuming society continues to evolve, i'm sure we will eventually find out...
what i do know is that i'd love nothing more than for a female to universally and therefore unequivocally, set the bar for all of climbing humanity, and therefore prove the whole discussion [and designation] irrelevant...
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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I have never heard of a first male ascent. Us "men" don't differentiate because we are equal with women right? Men and women are naturally physiologically and mentally wired different. That is a fact.
Agendas don't help your cause for folks that can think.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Warbler great job on all that detailed analysis!
I might add that the woman who beats all men in sport climbing and only does Sport Climbing might be the bitch of all bitches.
She would have Bitch Muscle.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Yeah, Kevin said it. Women use to steer clear of this game. Then it got safer and more social and they showed up in force.
Right.
I saved the best for last—would everyone stand
except for, and in tribute to, Barbara Lilley?
The three highest, hardest snowy peaks in North
America are Mt. McKinley, Mt. Logan, and Mt. St. Elias.
Barbara is the first, by light years, to have summited all
three, and the first woman on each of them,
accomplished in an age of sexism. This began in the
1950s, before fancy gear; we’re talking massive packs,
twenty-three-hour summit days, “the usual blizzards,”
as she has written.
Her first ascent list is long and includes the highest
then-unclimbed peak in North America, 14,252’ Mt.
MacArthur in the Yukon.
This lady rock climbs! The first woman to climb
Yosemite’s fabled Lost Arrow, with Royal Robbins; other
Valley classics like the Cathedral Spires; first ascents at
Tahquitz, such as Fools Rush, The Error, and
Switchback, 5.7R, dating back to 1952. And there was a
scramble, for her, anyway, up the East Face of Mt.
Whitney in 1959, where she popped up at the top and
met Gordon MacLeod.
Since she retired from her day job at Hughes in
1986, she and Gordon have “gone climbin’,” summiting
way over five thousand peaks each.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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About the annoying premiss of this thread:
PATRONIZING
pa·tron·ize
ˈpātrəˌnīz,ˈpatrəˌnīz/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: patronizing
1.
treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.
"“She's a good-hearted girl,” he said in a patronizing voice"
synonyms: treat condescendingly, condescend to, look down on, talk down to, put down, treat like a child, treat with disdain More
2.
frequent (a store, theater, restaurant, or other establishment) as a customer.
"restaurants remaining open in the evening were well patronized"
synonyms: do business with, buy from, shop at, be a customer of, be a client of, deal with, trade with, frequent, support
"they patronized local merchants"
about climbing hard,These next ones are
not sport climbing you would be hard press to Find a Bitch with better head, muscles or attitude she is tuff and serious about climbing hard. When talking about what made a climb good, a great climb, Lynn told me that every move needs to be harder than the last move,
not defining it into categories to swell her own head ( n0 pun unintended )She is the real deal. . . when you talked climbing or getting at it
I don't think that there are any similar chicks, although I also knew Barb Devine and at the same time the two women crushed climbing as did Rosie Andrews who's muscles and bitchyness was twice that of both Barb and Lynn,
combined.( theres a story in all that )
Yes, The gyms, ease and safety that is modern climbing, has changed the demographic. The game is unrecognizable, get over it.
There are reasons we have dicks' just try a bit harder not to let it show.
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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I've been seeing Barbara and Gorden [MacLeod] signatures in obscure summit registers all over California, for many years.
Dingus, that's only part of it. And she's still out there getting it done.
Was fortunate to see a slide show by the late Ellen Wilts some 15 years ago. I expected to see slides of Tahquitz, but instead was treated to an amazing collection of photos from various ascents in the Canadian Rockies from the late '40s and '50s. She was an amazing woman, and still sharp as a tack.
But of course they, and Ruth Mendenhall, were only doing it because it was safe and social.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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I might add that the woman who beats all men in sport climbing and only does Sport Climbing might be the bitch of all bitches.
Wow Dingus McGee, thank you for that subtle reminder that a woman who can beat a man in Man's Territory (ie. climbing) is by necessity "probably" a bitch.
Lol! Glad to see sexism is alive and well on the Taco.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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it was really fun to watch John Stannard and Lynn Hill talk about Foops at the Facelift last month.
just like watching two climbers discussing the details of the moves they used to get through the crux...
Hey Warbler, you got a Foops story?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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5.11, break through when John did it... my guess is with your size you'd have an easier time with it then Lynn who is considerably shorter...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Kloberdanz really isn't that bad....overhead protection. I recall a dyno move and a heel hook.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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L,
Glad to see sexism ...
truth is that that sentence was intended to be sarcastic sexism about this post -- you may have gotten that.
Truth is (second one) there are all kinds of fantastic bitches out there and most of them could not get their big asses off the ground. But alas I can appreciate them and thoroughly enjoy their company. By many measurements they are far more pleasant to be around that those type "A" personalities.
It now appears that women have taken up that stupid game of sports analysis. Will women ever be as good as men in sports anal alysis?
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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L--truth is that that sentence was intended to be sarcastic sexism about this post -- you may have gotten that.
My humble apologies, Dingus, I didn't. But I hadn't had any java yet so the synapses weren't firing.
Thanks for the clarification. I always thought you were one of the good ones. :-)
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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What a senseless idea. Do we really need to follow the petty accomplishments of the weaker sex?
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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I wish I had size 15 feet......
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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I always wanted to pull a Jesus
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Women can prove they're equal to men by celebrating female ascents only on their merit. If the ascent would be unremarkable for a man, why should it be remarkable for a woman.
The magazines and brands are trying to allow (almost) equal representation to males and to females. That's why some of these ascents are reported. Some are bad ass. Some are....personal accomplishments.
The product wouldn't be as interesting to female readers if it was 99% about guys. Overall, I noticed the major brands sponsor female athletes with a climbing resumes that wouldn't be anything to be proud of (if compared to a bunch of people whose names are rarely noticed).
Good tool for climbers (males and females) to get free products or get publicity. For those who seek it, or need the free gear, being a good salesman/woman is a great quality to have. In the media, the ability to sell a good article, is as important, if not more important, than the climb itself. Who do you know? Where do you live? How good are you at whoring yourself out?
Why should it be remarkable? Well...because the product has to be bought! And it will be bought by more people if there is diversity.
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CCT
Trad climber
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In Reel Rock this year, there was a segment on high ball bouldering. The route is hard, but not that hard, and the hero of the story is clearly uncomfortable with the level of risk.
<spoiler alert>
He does the climb.
In the film, this was treated like a positive accomplishment. As if overcoming your natural fear and risking serious injury to pull a technically difficult move is something to be proud of. This made me feel bad for today's young boulderers. It's no longer enough to be good at your sport and pull really hard moves. To get attention, you also have to be willing to risk life and limb.
Climbing media reports on whatever people want to hear about. That includes females, risk for the sake of risk, personal accomplishments, heart-warming stories, whatever. Much of what they report is not interesting to me, and some of it, like the film at Reel Rock, I actually consider dangerous and possibly misguided. But I accept that many people enjoy it and do find it inspiring.
Similarly, first female ascents are inspiring to many people, as are women who climb hard relative to other women. I'm not sure why reporting on this, or sponsoring women who do FFA's, or being a woman who focuses on FFA's over FA's, could be considered a negative thing. Myself, I enjoy stories about amazing lady crushers knocking out well established test pieces. If the focus were exclusively on long-armed skinny necked dudes climbing yet another high number, it would be a lot less interesting. And personally, I would consider it rather rude to write an article telling someone else what they should climb while trying to make a living in our drastically underfunded sport.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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It is not at all a surprise. I think Kevin has asked a different question.
Yes, the media usually shows the send. It doesn't usually show the process of top roping the sh#t out of that problem to make sure there is 99.9 chance of succeeding. Not sure if they did or not this time. But that is how people send high ball boulder problems with a risk of getting mangled in case of a fall. One critique I have to offer is that the real process is sort of hidden usually...anyway doesn't really matter. No one wants to see 3 months of top roping the proj..by the way I consider these people climbing these difficult problems totally bad ass and wish I was as skilled! Not trying to put down the accomplishment here...but personally majority of the climbing flicks lack the presence of reality.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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How about recognizing First Morbidly Obese Ascents?
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viv.r.e
climber
a marmot hole
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Here are some questions that I think actually would move this forward if there is good data out there:
1. Who are the women doing first free ascents and first ascents? (Ed had good numbers that this number is rising if you sift through the posts: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2672439&tn=120);
2. Is there climbing media coverage on them?
3. How does that media coverage compare proportionally to coverage of women doing first female ascents?
4. Why? Is coverage different in other countries?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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long-armed skinny necked dudes
That is profiling.
I dunno, I think it's the chicks' job to come up with something.
As a man, you decided this?
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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hey Warbler! It's OK. I hate women too.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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FBA?
(rhymes with reader not witch)
One of the tricks archeologists use to distinguish female bones from male is the length of digits. Women have longer index fingers than ring fingers, while males are the opposite.
I have often wondered if this unknowingly gave Lynn an edge under the Great Roof and, after she got it, caused the guys to figure they could too (and we know how much difference that makes).
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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Yeah, if it's the second, third, ninth or twenty-ninth ascent, I'd give Maldaly credit for pulling through for the first adaptive ascent even if it's just a FAFA. ;) And I do wonder what Hugh Herr thinks about all this since his FA's put up on stilts. (more emoticons)
If FFFA means the first woman powered up a significant line then "First Female Ascent" describes a significant achievement and that reality is noteworthy to me. Not sure if it ought to be in the AAJ but that's up to Dougal, et al. If the second ascent of a Shanti Pack route was by a dude it might be a First Fellow Free Ascent, eh. Bet he'd be chuffed.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Can't have FFA FFFA = First Female Free Ascent
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Dammitall, I'm a man after all.
That's probably a step up from your current status of hardwoman, eh Tami?
Don't worry, my ring finger is slightly longer than my index too. Man hands samesies?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Kauk has particularly stubby index fingers, check it out sometime! I have a clear mental image of his hands from so much time spent with him... I've seen Ron navigate his way into some impressive situations.
You really should keep that to yourself.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 11, 2016 - 11:34pm PT
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Wasn't today's weather great?
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Apr 12, 2016 - 05:13am PT
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I just think there is too much hype in general. First this first that.
The firsts that really count are mostly in the hard alpine realm.
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Pewf
climber
Gunnison, CO
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Apr 12, 2016 - 08:05am PT
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Didn't see this the first time around. Regarding that post back a few pages asking for stories of sexism, here's my fave:
International climber's meet, Scottish winter climbing, in the 90s. I was making polite conversation with a mountain guide from somewhere in Eastern Europe. I guess he was probably in his 40s but since I was something like 23, he appeared to me to be positively ancient. Anyway, after a couple minutes, he looked at me and said, "I just don't understand why you would want to climb when you already have the greatest gift given to humans. You can have babies and take care of them."
I mean, duh. Why hadn't I already popped out a couple by then??
As for first female ascents, I dunno. I tell my daughter (thank goodness, I've finally fulfilled my life's purpose by giving birth) that she has the ability to be the first person to do all sorts of things if that's what she wants. I don't think that it's useful to tell her that she could be the first girl/woman. IMO, that kind of mentality only leads to self-limitation. She can decide later if there's utility in the distinction (if she wants to become a weight lifter or something).
But I think it's also very important to show what women are achieving and have done in the past. Especially when breaking new territory for the gender.
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Pewf
climber
Gunnison, CO
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Apr 12, 2016 - 06:03pm PT
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HI TAMI! I guess those Scots are trying to affirm their masculinity after centuries of kilts?
I don't even want to think about the job market when my girl finishes school...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 12, 2016 - 07:07pm PT
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If being the first woman to climb this or that route meant anything 30 years ago, my ex-wife would be a celebrity gazillionaire athlete with her face up there on Mount F*#king Rushmore.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Apr 12, 2016 - 07:50pm PT
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Just curious.
Who got the fmfa of the Nose?
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Gregory Crouch
Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
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Apr 13, 2016 - 07:58am PT
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^^^ Isn't that Sibylle Hecktel and Bev Johnson?
If being the first woman to climb this or that route meant anything 30 years ago, my ex-wife would be a celebrity gazillionaire athlete with her face up there on Mount F*#king Rushmore.
Barb Devine would have bo-billions, too, I would think.
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