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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:18pm PT
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It absolutely took 60 votes to get Obamacare through the Senate for the first vote. My understanding is that the original Senate version was intended more as a draft and not the final version. But once the Dems no longer had 60 non-Republican votes, they could no longer make any modifications at all, even to the extent of cleaning up typos.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:20pm PT
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I would have much prefered single-payer and I think a lot of Dems would also have. However, once you realize that zero Rs were going to vote for Obamacare, that meant you had to have 100% of the remaining votes in the Senate. Every non-Republican (there were a couple of Indepents) had an absolute veto right. So a single Dem that didn't want single-payer was enough to sink it even if the vast majority of Dems wanted single-payer.
The other big issue was the power of the Health industry lobby. If you had tried to push through single payer, they would have spent billions (no exaggeration) trying to defeat the legislation and/or its implementation. Given the scorched earth opposition from R governors, taking on the Health industry at the same time wasn't a viable option.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
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Bah, Obama never had complete control. Period. That was another handicap for him from the start, despite the postive things he wanted to do. But good intentions don't get you far in Washington. You need more than that.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
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Smoke and mirrors. He didn't need a filibuster-proof Congress to get Obumblecare passed. This "not filibuster-proof" line is a smokescreen.
He got passed the biggest step toward pure socialism since FDR, and he did it WITHOUT a filibuster-proof Congress. He did it over the objection of EVERY Rebumblecon, so clearly THEY didn't matter in the process. So, if you're going ACA, why not go straight at single-payer?
Ohhh... right... because the American public could be FOOLED regarding the ACA, but even the STUPID public could not be fooled far ENOUGH for single-payer.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
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THANKS for answering honestly...
I do try. Thank you.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
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The other big issue was the power of the Health industry lobby.
THERE is the elephant in the room.
There WILL BE no reform until the corporate domination of the political process is ENDED!
And that's where the Bern comes in (and then goes back out while shaking the hand of his supposed "opponent" that he WILL ultimately support).
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:25pm PT
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So in what universe do you think that Rs would not fillibuster a modification of Obamacare or legislation for single payer?
And can I have some of what you are smoking???
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John M
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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He got passed the biggest step toward pure socialism since FDR, and he did it WITHOUT a filibuster-proof Congress. He did it over the objection of EVERY Rebumblecon, so clearly THEY didn't matter in the process. So, if you're going ACA, why not go straight at single-payer?
so you didn't read the article.
And .. if .. he didn't have a filibuster proof congress, then you are saying the republicans are lame. which of course we know that they are, but now at least you admit it.
72 days..
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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I agree that there won't be reform until corporate power is reduced and I also don't believe that corporate power will be reduced. So yea, I don't see any reason for optimism.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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You all may disagree with MB1, but he is much more aware than you all give him credit for.
Health care is going to continue to go up with any of the Republican and most of the Democratic candidates elected. If you are like most Americans, there is nothing YOU are doing to change that (probably, I don't know any of you so I am guessing).
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John M
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
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I've never said he wasn't aware, but sometimes he is wrong.
good post by August West..
I would have much prefered single-payer and I think a lot of Dems would also have. However, once you realize that zero Rs were going to vote for Obamacare, that meant you had to have 100% of the remaining votes in the Senate. Every non-Republican (there were a couple of Indepents) had an absolute veto right. So a single Dem that didn't want single-payer was enough to sink it even if the vast majority of Dems wanted single-payer.
The other big issue was the power of the Health industry lobby. If you had tried to push through single payer, they would have spent billions (no exaggeration) trying to defeat the legislation and/or its implementation. Given the scorched earth opposition from R governors, taking on the Health industry at the same time wasn't a viable option.
It absolutely took 60 votes to get Obamacare through the Senate for the first vote. My understanding is that the original Senate version was intended more as a draft and not the final version. But once the Dems no longer had 60 non-Republican votes, they could no longer make any modifications at all, even to the extent of cleaning up typos.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
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Just remember that only in liberal fantasy world are things like Bernie kissing Hillary's butt by glossing over the email scandal a good thing.
Somehow I don't think the repubs will be so sporting.
I had to laugh when I heard Hillary bitching about sending executives to jail . . . she'll be lucky to avoid jail herself when the dust finally settles (or at least she'll be on probation, a la General Petraeus).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
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which of course we know that they are, but now at least you admit it.
I've always "admitted" it. I EMBRACE it and always have! I'm no Rebumblecon.
So, don't make it out like I've now been "backed into some corner" and "forced" to "finally" admit the truth.
The Rebumblecons had ZERO interest in actual health-care reform, which is why they had NO plan (and still don't). FIXING the problem has NOTHING to do with the wealth-redistribution of Obumblecare; it has EVERYTHING to do with undoing the corporate stranglehold on our health-care system. Doing THAT is actually one of the constitutional powers of the feds, and I completely support regulatory and anti-trust actions! But neither the Demoncrats NOR the Rebumblecons have ANY interest in doing that, because that would piss off their corporate masters.
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John M
climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:33pm PT
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we agree on this..
The Rebumblecons had ZERO interest in actual health-care reform, which is why they had NO plan (and still don't). FIXING the problem has NOTHING to do with the wealth-redistribution of Obumblecare; it has EVERYTHING to do with undoing the corporate stranglehold on our health-care system. Doing THAT is actually one of the constitutional powers of the feds, and I completely support regulatory and anti-trust actions! But neither the Demoncrats NOR the Rebumblecons have ANY interest in doing that, because that would piss off their corporate masters.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:34pm PT
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^^^ I'm glad, John.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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Madbolter, I respect The Bern more for that because I think he feels confident (and for good reason in my opinion) that he can solidly take Hillary on policy. That steers the whole election in the right direction in my opinion. It also perhaps earned him some more votes from women.
I understand that perspective and can respect it. At present I think it's not correct, but I continue to rethink.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Oct 14, 2015 - 04:59pm PT
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True DMT.
You should all count the yankee from NY ,who is a senator from Vermont, Out.Only a Year left.
The guy's first time on the big stage ,I think he did real well.
Was that Ricky Sumner back there howling?
Look MB ,you do have a friend........lol.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 14, 2015 - 05:02pm PT
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Look MB ,you do have a friend........lol.
Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Koomgayaahh, anyone? ;-)
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Norton
Social climber
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Oct 14, 2015 - 05:10pm PT
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. He clearly didn't need 60 votes to punch through Obumblecare, over the objection of EVERY Rebumblecon! So why do you now say he needed 60 votes to punch through single-payer?
He had two years of the clearest sailing a modern pres is gonna get, and he couldn't get it done. Do NOT blame the Rebumblecons for HIS failures when he had greased skids for his first two years COUPLED with the strongest "honeymoon period" with the voters of anyone in recent history.
The 60-vote crap is just that: Lame excuse.
Madbolter, youi are clearly very, very both uninformed and misinformed.
The Democrats never, ever during Obama's Presidency, had 60 Dems in the Senate.
What part of that do you not understand?
For a very short period of time they had 58 Dem and need both Independents to vote with them to override the Republicans in the Senate.
You can bleat and pretend with your arrogant bluster all you want but you
clearly have very poor comprehension of legislative realities.
you have also shown repeatedly by your childish twisting of prominent Democrats names that you are incapable of true independent critical analysis without bias.
Grow up, drop the immaturity, know the facts before you shoot your mouth off.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Oct 14, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
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Bernie shook Hillary's hand because he's an honorable gentleman, they are friends and he knows the e-mail baloney is an over-hyped partisan diversion by the Republicans. And he's honest. He's talking to thousands of people every week and nobody in his range gives a rats ass about the issue.
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