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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
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sit back on a island criticizing people who WORK for a living.
That's such an ABSURD generalization that I'd just laugh except for the fact that TOO many in this nation now stupidly believe it!
The issue isn't "busting your a55 hard!" The issue is learning to work SMART as well as HARD.
I've put in SO many working hours over the weekend and thus far this week doing a massive hardware upgrade in our server rack to better serve our customers. I've gotten about 10 hours of sleep in the past 3 days. It's MY company, yet I work HARD in it. The idea that I live on an "island" just criticizing people that "work" for a living is flat-out offensive. I work far harder than MOST.
There's a Taco Bell next door to our office, and we frequent that establishment. I can PROMISE you that nobody in that Taco Bell works CLOSE to as HARD or as LONG as I do. I make FAR more than a Taco Bell worker because I got educated, worked my way up ladders to EARN the credibility to negotiate contracts with the highest ranking people at some of the top universities in this nation, and I (along with my partners) took (and am taking) the RISKS to grow a company (that provides employment).
Don't even TRY to float some BS, class-warfare line about ME having some supposed silver spoon in my mouth compared to the "downtrodden" Taco Bell workers. It's UTTER CRAP, and I've LIVED the reality from "downtrodden" to WORKING my way to company President MYSELF. Your generalizations are pure, steaming snake-droppings and nothing more.
If you wanna go "race," then I'll point out that my half-black girlfriend in graduate school got TONS of grants, scholarships, and ultra-low-interest loans that I (being the "privileged," white male) could not get. I'm in debt for my education; not her. And THAT's a generalization that has stood throughout my lifetime. I got no special favors, because I was born just in time to become sweepingly viewed as the "evil, white male; the oppressor of all and beneficiary of everything." So the pendulum had swung HARD against me (and my "ilk") by the time I had to try to make it.
I'm so sick of the whining that I can barely stand it! I BUCKED UP, and ANYBODY else in this nation can too. Ben Carson BUCKED UP, and so can anybody else. Don't just "work hard." Work UP. Taco Bell is not an end-point, and people don't have an excuse for making it one.
"The system" doesn't OWE you anything except a fair opportunity to apply yourself. If you can't be bothered, then you should GET nothing. If you CAN be bothered, and you strive for excellence in all that you do, you will succeed in "this system."
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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If I generalized about anything ,it was about your"rant",not you.
I am glad you agree with
The Bern.
EDIT. An island is a location, nothing more,nothing less.
You are mocking WORKING PEOPLE.
Sorry they do not meet your god damn standards you selfish prick.
It must be all about you.
Real people person.
Yeah none of us work as hard as you.
Effin Libertarians, you are all the same.
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John M
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
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sure.. everyone has the same talents and intelligence as you or Ben Carson.. Mercy
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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Ben Carson may be a great surgeon, but he is a complete idiot with regard to fixing anyting that is wrong with the government. He did not even know the difference between the budget deficit and debt ceiling.
When asked how he would pay for the spending cuts he was proposing, he said he would get rid of the "sacred cows". Total twaddle speak. He couldn't even name one after being asked several times.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
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nice sentimentality madbolter, but not realistic.
It's not a "sentiment." I AM realistic, because all my life I've paid the price to EARN my opinions BY living the reality of them.
Sometimes people have babies without intending to.
Sure, but that SHOULD be the rare exception. In FACT, people live entirely irresponsible lifestyles BECAUSE society has provided SO many backstops that it's a net GAIN to just keep poppen' 'em out. Get RID of ALL the child-related credits on taxes, and watch how quickly birth control seems to start WORKING.
If they are poor, then they have real troubles.
Yup, which SHOULD be incentive (as it really is not in this nation) to NOT be poppin' out kids you can't pay for!
The notion that because its a minimum wage job it should only be considered as a first step is just unrealistic.
So you say, but THAT is really just a sentiment. I've LIVED it, the whole gamut, and I've known countless others.
What is it with conservatives who have no ability to have empathy for others situations and try to impose their own abilities on others.
I'm no conservative, so I don't know who you're talking about. I guess that our founders were "conservatives" without empathy and just imposing, as you say:
"The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government" (Federalist Papers, Number 10).
The founders feared majority faction, the only prevention of which they saw in the "diverse faculties" of men, which necessarily produces differences in property and interests. Thus, "the protection" of that diversity of faculties is "the first object of government."
Did you get that? Government is not SUPPOSED to "distribute the wealth" and try to achieve "some measure" of equitable distribution! The REVERSE is the case. The FIRST order of government is to ENSURE that people do not become so consolidated in their interests that they are able to form majority faction (too late in this nation now, sadly).
Now the whiners HAVE parity, but I wonder what they are going to do with their new-found power to FORCE the earners to pay for them. I wonder what they are going to do when the earners and job-creators get FED UP enough to just quit and find a hunk of government TEAT to latch onto before they are ALL gone and this sick game of musical money-chairs gets REAL!
LEB was the same way. But not everyone has the same talents and strengths. Thats a reality.
Putting my post in the same breath with LEB was a pretty low blow! ;-)
That's why there is a wide spectrum of useful and high-paying jobs. FEW people cannot learn to drive a truck. FEW people cannot learn to be a garbage-collector; they are hiring in the Denver area, and the pay is quite good! Much better than Taco Bell. VERY, very few cannot be trained to contribute much more (and be paid for it) than bending burritos. Let's not talk about the edge-cases when we're talking about national policy.
Could they do better? most anyone can do at least a little better. But when you are making minimum wage, a little better doesn't go very far.
Ah, there's the veiled admission.
Actually, MOST could do a LOT, LOT better. As I said, in the Denver area they need a lot more garbage-collectors, and the pay is lower-middle-class, plus GREAT city-benefits. That's a LOT better than minimum wage, and you CAN (with frugality) raise a family.
How much better are you going to be madbolter? Like with your empathy.
I have PLENTY of empathy with ANYBODY that is actually working their way up OUT of the minimum-wage level of contribution. But I'm all out of it regarding the whining that ALWAYS means that I have to PAY MORE to "help" people that SHOULD be living within their means, as I have to do!
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John M
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:33pm PT
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I have PLENTY of empathy with ANYBODY that is actually working their way up OUT of the minimum-wage level of contribution. But I'm all out of it regarding the whining that ALWAYS means that I have to PAY MORE to "help" people that SHOULD be living within their means, as I have to do!
you complain about others whining, but this is a world class whine. You poor thing. Those poor people never live within their means. no sirree..
Edit: I can hear Ghosts voice in my head chiding me for arguing with someone who never learns. ugh.. see ya mad. Good luck with that attitude.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
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^^^ LOL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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see ya mad. Good luck with that attitude.
Yeah, to hear you tell it, people must be radically de-evolving in just one generation. To hear you tell it, society is now chock-full of poor saps that are just to stupid and incapable to really make it.
That's YOUR excuse for them, yet somehow I'M the bad guy for insisting that MOST people are not stupid nor incompetent, thus they should be EXPECTED to make it FAR higher than Taco Bell.
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John M
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 04:45pm PT
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Things have changed. I'm sorry that you don't understand that. Its much more difficult today. Just notice that it takes two incomes to equal what our parents made. Our parents came out of a time where the country as a whole believed in supporting the middle class.. Much of that has been eroded so that it is harder to pull yourself up. The middle class has shrunk. We now live in a time where people say.. I got mine.. too bad about you.
Edit: can this or that individual still rise up? of course. But I am talking about the general attitude and atmosphere of the day.
Edit: you have world class will power Richard. So does Ben Carson and LEB. Comparing your selves with the average person just doesn't work.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 12, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
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I think people that possess a certain (higher) level of intelligence would agree with you, MB1 - however, that expectation is a little unrealistic to the larger masses that just breed and get mad when they can't make ends meet (instead of your logical approach).
I sympathize with them, but empathize with you.
Cheers! Erik
Edit: I don't mean to be insensitive, but we live in reactive times.
It seems lot of life happens without thought of consequences these days, and reasonable people don't behave that way.
The poison of dis-honesty is trickling down.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
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(57 + 5) = 62% (for all the mental giants on this thread) for the military which protects all these sub-minimum wage workers and their wealth in America.
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John M
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
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I think people that possess a certain (higher) level of intelligence would agree with you, MB1
so you are calling me stupid… or in a more gentle way, lacking a certain higher intelligence. hahahahaha.. okay man.
our parents had cheap land, cheap housing, cheap unlimited power, abundant resources, but sure.. things are the same today.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Oct 12, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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The US has a minimum wage law that doesn't come close to meeting the financial needs of the American working class as they climb the corporate ladder to CEOdom..Maybe it's time to legislate salary caps for American CEO's , the useless figure heads that skim the cream off the backs of down sized work crews...? eh...
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:02pm PT
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John, you are reading too much into my response.
I was merely addressing MB1.
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John M
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
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just going by what you said. someone with high intelligence would agree with him. I didn't agree with him, therefore….
I'm not disturbed Eric. I know that you don't mean to insult. Just pointing out what you said.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
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We now live in a time where people say.. I got mine.. too bad about you.
That may be. I haven't seen it, nor is that my attitude. Crassly speaking, my attitude is closer to: I'm still trying to get (and hang onto) mine, while there is an ever-increasing number of demands upon "mine" to become "theirs."
Edit: can this or that individual still rise up? of course. But I am talking about the general attitude and atmosphere of the day.
I get the attitude! I just don't agree that it is valid. It IS individuals who rise up, and MOST of them can if they will only pay the price to do it.
Edit: you have world class will power Richard. So does Ben Carson and LEB. Comparing your selves with the average person just doesn't work.
I do appreciate what you're saying. I really do. I'm not saying that everybody needs to "excel," as we all do come into the world with different native capacities. But there is a HUGE range of relative success between "excelling" and just settling into a Taco-Bell-Forever mentality, which is what an ever-increasing number do do... the ones that try to work at all.
And it's not all "native capacity." Will power doesn't just "happen" to a person. We DO have choices, and we DO choose whether to train/discipline ourselves to do hard things or to systematically seek out the easiest paths. The price you pay for systematically living in your comfort zone is to never excel, which is FINE, as long as you don't expect me to pay for the consequences of your choices. That's really all I'm asking for: Individual responsibility--you GET to sleep in the bed YOU made for yourself, not come stealing MY covers.
Now, regarding military spending, that's obscene! You want to read a rant? Let me get really rolling on the US being the arms-dealer, policeman, expansionist, manifest-destiny, THUG-everywhere military power that we are. It's sickening, and the VAST good we could do at home with HALF of that money is beyond estimation!!! I'm much more with Rand Paul and his dad, not to be "isolationist" but to instead get our noses out of the countless places where we actually have NO national interest (other than to have our nosed poked into countless places).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:08pm PT
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Thank you, MisterE.
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John M
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
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which is what an ever-increasing number do do… the ones that try to work at all.
I also agree that strong will can help you overcome lots of difficult situations, but what I am trying to address is the weight of hopelessness that encumbers America today. Its much different then the hopefulness that America had during my parents Generation. That weight of hopelessness is pretty difficult today. Most kids today don't believe that they have much chance of ever owning their own home. Thats a complete turnaround from our parents generation. I'm not saying that this is a reason to just give them things. I'm saying that we need to change the atmosphere. Encourage the middle class. You are middle class and you are fighting to stay there. One reason is that the supports for the middle class have been eroded. With Manufacturing gone.. well paying middle class jobs gone. With fewer middle class jobs, the burden on the middle class, who pay most of the taxes becomes higher and so they feel the pain of the needs of the poor to a greater extent.
by the way.. the minimum wage would have to be over 11 dollars an hour adjusted for inflation to = the rates in the 60s, when I believe you first started working. It peaked in 68.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
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I actually agree with everything you just wrote, John, as I understand it.
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John M
climber
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Oct 12, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
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well, then asking for 10 dollars an hour minimum wage to help give an atmosphere that you had, shouldn't be asking so much, as its still less then what you had. It would require a lot of other supports too. Many to the middle class, but also to help lift people up and keep them there. I'm not an expert on that. Someone else will have to address that.
I would start with reduce military spending. And Rebuild our schools and our infrastructure. And help kids get out of school loan debts. Maybe not wholesale, but certainly to some extent.
Reduce the military spending. Take 33 percent of that savings and spend it on paying down the national debt. Take 33 percent and put it towards helping the middle class, perhaps with tax cuts, and take the rest and spend it on infrastructure.
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