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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 12, 2015 - 01:37pm PT
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DMT, it depends on whose vote you seek to buy. If you seek to buy the electorate's votes, you do them favors at the expense of everyone else. That's why I described the mechanisms of vote-buying the way I did.
If you want to buy the vote of the elected official, that's when campaign donations come into play. Even then, though, those crafty elected officials can play the game awfully well.
I got to see this first hand with the amendments made to the Bankruptcy Code in 2005. Within a few years of enactement, the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 1978 (the guts of the current Bankruptcy Code) sent several creditor groups scrambling to modify the Code. Consumer lenders ratcheted up their noise level - and their campaign donations - to try to amend the Code to make it harder to discharge consumer debts in bankruptcy.
By the middle of the 1990's, Congress was playing the consumer lenders like finely-tuned musical instruments. Each chamber would pass a slightly different version of the creditor-favored amendments by an overwhelmingly bipartisan vote, usually near the end of the legislative session, only to have the bills die in conference committee. That way, each representative and senator could tell the lenders "I voted for you, so you need to contribute to my campaign."
Of course, no bill ever passed. If it would pass, that would kill their gravy train. Unfortuantely for the Bankruptcy Code, the lenders finally woke up, saw that their best hope of change was before the 2006 elections, and got their bill passed in 2005. I filed more consumer bankruptcies in the 6 weeks before the new law went into effect than I had in the previous 12 months. The campaign donations did not buy the votes of the electorate, but they sure bought, in my opinion, the desired amendments.
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 12, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
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Gary
Social climber
From A Buick 6
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May 12, 2015 - 02:03pm PT
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Degaine, Gary is almost certainly on your side, and made his remark sarcastically, I would guess.
John is right. Degaine, you tried to use facts in order to form an opinion.
And as Ronald Reagan pointed out so many years ago, "Facts are stupid things."
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 12, 2015 - 02:41pm PT
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Ow. That thing ^^^ just gave me a headache.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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May 12, 2015 - 03:39pm PT
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wow, that was like 5 pages of drivel without a photo. Come on, don't skimp on those clever and funny photos, it's the only reason I look at this thread.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 12, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
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Could it be that some here were put through religious Schools, or private schools, or home schooled; that forgot to teach civics and the American Revolution political history?
Did they mention the enlightenment as part of the American Promise of promoting the "General Welfare of the People" in your schooling??
Which was also the inspiration for the Bill of Rights.
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Degaine
climber
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May 14, 2015 - 07:08am PT
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Hi Gary,
Thanks for the clarification. My apologies for misunderstanding.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 14, 2015 - 09:55am PT
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Mad Bolters rant was spot on.....
It sums up the frustrations that a lot of Americans feel.... Me included.
But to get this topic back on the rails I submit this.....
The problem I have with her is this: She has NO deep down core values, her beliefs are whatever seem like a good idea at the time. She also didn't get anything accomplished as Sec of State.... except Bengazi (yes that does matter, even if it was a few years ago) but she did raise a whole bunch of cash... for the Clinton Foundation.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 14, 2015 - 10:19am PT
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"You do not have to support what she does or stands for. But do not say she doesn’t have any accomplishments. The conservatives who say this are the ones who are pushing for Ted Cruz – who brought on a $24 billion shut down. That, to them, is an accomplishment?"
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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May 14, 2015 - 10:52am PT
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Locker I take exception to your entire list......
They look good on Paper.
The Clinton Foundation, spends more money on the Clintons and the friends, than poor people in Africa.
Give your $$$ to any other group if you want it to REALLY go to the needy...
I don't really have the time to go and research all this for you people who just love Hillery.... I do have a job, lucky for me, and right now I'm on a hot project.
This is shaping up to be a really FUN election, one that is unique in the last 70 years ..... The Democrats are sticking with the old establishment folks (Hillery) and the Repubs have a whole bunch of different candidates, of all stripes....
All you Hillery supporters need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Cheers
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 14, 2015 - 10:54am PT
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If that list belonged to your Party's likely candidate, you'd vote for them, guyman....even with their mixed history.
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Norton
Social climber
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May 14, 2015 - 11:01am PT
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All you Hillery supporters need to wake up and smell the coffee.
fact: the difference between the Repub and Democratic Party's is wide and undeniable
fact: Hillary Clinton is a Democrat
fact: the people who favor Democratic economics and social policies are going to "support"
the Democrat, Mrs. Clinton
I see the stock market is making new record highs today on the strength of a very good
employment report
fact: this is happening while a Democrat is in the White House
question: What part of this do you have trouble understanding?
would you prefer Recession? Then vote Republican, that's what you got in 2007
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 14, 2015 - 11:05am PT
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fact: this is happening while a Democrat is in the White House
Fakt: The economy is its own beast and largely does not march to the rhythm
of whoever is in the White House.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 14, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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Very true, Reilly, but most voters either don't know this, or vote as though it does matter.
Still, it's pretty interesting that the last two two-term Democratic POTUS's have left office with the economy in relatively good shape (or record surplus), and the last Republican POTUS's have been at the helm of economic disasters. Go figure.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 14, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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would you prefer Recession? Then vote Republican, that's what you got in 2007
I know you know this, Norton, but the Republican was President from 2001-2009. 2007 was the year the Senate and House went from Republican to Democrat control.
Similarly, during the Clinton presidency, the economy took off after the Republicans captured the House and Senate in 1994's election.
I dont' disagree with your analysis of the demographics, but I think the Democrats take the voting of those demographic blocs for granted. The nature of politics in the American democracy drives successful candidates toward the center. Currently, a great many of the Tea Party and Religious Right positions are far outside the center, but so are a lot of the Democrats' biggest constiuents on matters such as trade, environmental regulation, law and order and the cost of government services. It will be interesting to see which party ends up with a candidate able to make a credible case for the center.
John
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 14, 2015 - 11:15am PT
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John, I heard a radio piece on behavioral economics yesterday and thought about you. What do you know or think about such things?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 14, 2015 - 11:18am PT
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Apogee, it ain't no big deal for a major leaguer to get two hits in a row.
As Willie Mays said:
"It isn't hard to be good. It's hard to be good all the time."
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Norton
Social climber
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May 14, 2015 - 11:36am PT
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nice try, but a weak effort, JohnE
why?
because the economy had already experienced three quarters of negative growth, the
official definition of Recession, by late 2007
tell me John, what hideous, economically ruinous Democratic policies did those Senate
Democrats get passed into law, and signed by Repub Bush from their inauguration dates
in early 2007 to Nov 07?
none
yet your Repubs were in control of both houses of congress and Presidency from 2001
-2006 and you remember what they failed to do, John?
they failed to regulate the exploding new toxic world of financial derivative, and they
failed to tighten mortgage underwriting
you OWN the Recession, you OWN the loss of million of American jobs, Johne
you own it because you vote Republican, and no BS attempts at doublespeak will work
and yet, incredibly, in the heart of Recession, you voted Republican AGAIN in 08
how fuking stupid are you, John?
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John M
climber
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May 14, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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because the economy had already experienced three quarters of negative growth, the
official definition of Recession, by late 2007
tell me John, what hideous, economically ruinous Democratic policies did those Senate
Democrats get passed into law, and signed by Repub Bush from their inauguration dates
in early 2007 to Nov 07?
none
yet your Repubs were in control of both houses of congress and Presidency from 2001
-2006 and you remember what they failed to do, John?
they failed to regulate the exploding new toxic world of financial derivative, and they
failed to tighten mortgage underwriting
good points..
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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May 14, 2015 - 11:48am PT
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Especially this part:
"they failed to regulate the exploding new toxic world of financial derivative, and they
failed to tighten mortgage underwriting"
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