Ready For Hillary?

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couchmaster

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 15, 2015 - 11:14am PT


They have the web site up and they have Ready for Hillary dog collars and such things if you are interested. This is ostensibly an attempt by Hillary's supporters to convince her to run, while raising a few bucks. In fact the sale has been going on for a bit and they are running out of some of the items already. For example, they are sold out of highball glasses and don't even list them now. Link: http://www.readyforhillary.com/store

Gary Hart (former Dem. Presidential candidate) says she's going to raise and spend about a billion dollars to be President. So I suppose that you need to buy some things for that to occur. I'm on the email list and have bought some Hillary things for Christmas gifts for my Hillary lovin' nieces and nephews already. Picked up 2 sets of highball glasses for my bro. Sure to be collectors items. Woot!





pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 15, 2015 - 11:57am PT
Locker is ready!
[Click to View YouTube Video]
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 15, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
I will proudly place my vote for the first woman President.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 15, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
Once again, Dave for the win!

John
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Apr 15, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
A quote from one of my favorite movies Army of Darkness

"It's a trick. Get an axe."


[Click to View YouTube Video]




She's no Bill Clinton. I'll stand with Rand...
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Apr 15, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 15, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
Locker cheer up!

It's a trick get an axe!
Lol
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 15, 2015 - 01:49pm PT
What difference does it make?

Putin's our president anyway, thanks in part to H. Clinton.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 15, 2015 - 02:02pm PT
Once again, Tami for the win!

-zB
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 15, 2015 - 02:08pm PT
Not much I'd like better than an economic replay of Bill's 8 years, especially after O got things moving in the right (left) direction.

I'd take an economic replay of Bill's last six years (i.e. after the economy got going with the election of a Republican congress), but it won't happen without major regulatory reform. Otherwise, as I've said before, I would vote for her over some Republican candidates I could think of, including, possibly, two of the three announced ones.

John
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2015 - 02:12pm PT
I was ready seven years ago. Hill never would have wasted a single breath in the first two years talking with purely obstructionist repugs and wouldn't have sold out basic universal healthcare to the insurance industry the way Obama did.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 15, 2015 - 02:17pm PT
One of the things that endears me to Hillary is how she gets repubs frothing at the mouth. Uppity women may not have the same hate cache as blacks for aging white males but they run a close second.
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 15, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
Wouldn't y'all be shocked if Romney won?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 15, 2015 - 02:52pm PT
Yes....I would be very shocked (and not happy) if Romney won but I would be appalled if Rand Paul or Jeb Bush did.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
Apr 15, 2015 - 03:03pm PT
Climbers do not talk of this @ campfires......freeze this.



Democrat, Progressive ,Socialist ,if en you were wondering.



The happiest countries in the world agree.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 15, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
I was ready seven years ago. Hill

Or how about 11 years ago?

No doubt, Bush's reelection looked a sure thing in April '03. If Hillary had run, she would have won the nomination and possibly the election. Who knew Bush would piss away such high approval numbers, so fast. He won only because John "Reporting for duty" Kerry served up major faux pas, which the Karl & Co. exploited in the spirit of Joseph Goebbels.

Hillary's biggest drawback is her age. Presidential campaigns are death marches.

Good luck, Mrs. Clinton.

Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2015 - 03:19pm PT
moosedrool! Re your comment:

Hillary it is.

My altruistic side wants more socialism.

The greedy side wants the stock market to go up.

Not a problem dude. Per this link to an article in FORTUNE magazine: the economy & of course the stock market does much better under Democratic presidents. Smirkle;) You can tell that it kinda pisses the Fortune folks off.

http://fortune.com/2014/07/29/economic-growth-democratic-presidents/

Explaining the mystery of fast economic growth under Democratic presidents


Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
Chomped into chicken bone last night. Excruciating dental pain all night, no sleep, no painkillers in house. Finally managed to dose off an hour before alarm radio goes off to some Radio DJ playing the Clinton Nurse ratchet cackle:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

WTF is wrong with you people who want to see this slimeWad and her child molesting husband in the White House again? Especially after 8 years of the worst "President" and malignant narcissist in the history of American politics?

The rest of the world would be saying " The U.S. , how pathetic, and it was once a great nation"

Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Apr 15, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
What does it matter WHO you lot elect for president?

The attitude of American exceptionalism will prevail. Your agencies will continue to tell your citizens that your foreign policies are altruistic when it benefits only the very wealthy of the corporatocracy.

Your media is propagandized; US Democratic process is dead.

Hillary Clinton is just another piece of meat like Obama and the Bushes before her.

Woman? White? Black? Blue? Red? Left ? Right?

Who cares.

Flame away.

Yeah, our country is just as bad. Bought off by America Incorporated or handed over to the Chinese.

Ugh.

I love it when Canadians get worked up over American politics

Especially since you're essentially greater Wisconsin
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 15, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
Ain't it sweet....having early primaries in dogsh#t, conservative States like Iowa!
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
F

Why would we start giving a sh#t about what the rest of the world thinks, now?

Huh?

DMT

I agree. Especially after the last 4
Presidents.

If the current crop of radical baby boomer leftists succeeds in turning the U.S. into an expanded version of California, we won't even give a sh#t what we ourselves think of our own country.

I don't think the aging radical 60s Left will succeed in pissing the country down the drain. But then again, that's the optimist in me.

A good chance this country will return to some measure of sanity after the passing of the nation's most politically radicalized generation. Remember, the generation I speak of is in their senior " power phase" and this too shall pass. Lol. Yes there will be life ,even after the cackling slimeWad.
In other words, this country is so great that it will survive the personality disorder who currently occupies the White House and the cackling slimeWad that might follow.

Hope springs eternal . Especially in a nation governed by the U.S. Constitution.


Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
Moose! That's what I get for posting sober.

I got carried away with pointing out that voting Democratic is good for your wallet.

L

climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
Apr 15, 2015 - 04:58pm PT
Sorry...just saw this...had to post it...sorrrrrrryyyyyy....

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 15, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
I'm with Ward.

She scares the shlt out of me.
Not just the gun grabber thing.

She will californicate this country into insolvency.

The time to learn to speak chinese is now.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Apr 15, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
If the current crop of radical baby boomer leftists succeeds in turning the U.S. into an expanded version of California...

If only we could be so lucky.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 15, 2015 - 05:27pm PT
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Apr 15, 2015 - 05:31pm PT

Its all Hollywood. It makes no difference who is voted in. Didn't Obama teach us that?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 15, 2015 - 05:36pm PT
Demoncrat symbols decoded.


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 15, 2015 - 05:47pm PT

If you guys hate white males why don't you vote for Marco Rubio?



He has lovely brown skin

And he's close to half Hilebeast's age.

(So is most of the Pub field)
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 15, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
Yes, Dems are apparently better than Repubs. Or so the saying goes.

Obama is still pushing the TPP, and Clinton was the one who signed NAFTA.
Don't forget it.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 15, 2015 - 06:36pm PT
1 billion dollars? That's all?

BTW who do you think she will work for after all that begging?

There is only one worthwhile issue to vote about.. does a candidate support an amendment to the constitution making donations to candidates illegal? Focus on this and we might be able to get a representative government.

If they don't have a strong position in favor of this I won't vote for them... since they won't work for me.

I have no interest in hiring someone who is going to work for someone else.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 15, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
Her online store is even out of blue buttplugs.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 15, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
Here is a real patriot ..he has the right message.

Gyrocopter lands in the capitol.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/who-doug-hughes-inside-mind-man-who-flew-washington-n342381
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 15, 2015 - 06:54pm PT
When Hillary gets done with the limp-wristed Republicans , they're all going to need some type of surgical device to keep their rectums from draining...rj
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 15, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
There are probably 100's of women who are qualified to be president.

None of them will run. If they did they wouldn't be qualified. Same for either sex.

what kind of idiot wants to be "the begger in chief"
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
Locker...Noted....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:12pm PT
I'll take door #2

Let's keep it decent around here, OK?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
Who's running for the Republican's....Jeb...Rubio...?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:15pm PT
Potatohead! Re your post:

Ho man....posting worthless, skewed graphs already. Where did you get this 'factual' info Fritz?? I get it, you'll say anything for your team but.... C'mon man...you can do better than that. This kinda stuff is worthy of a good tea(party)-bagging. One in the same. Crankloon will oblige

My apologies!
I had posted the same graph an hour earlier on this thread and I unjustly & unfairly thought fellow pundits might have read & remembered it.

I will no longer assume those in the opposition have the memory skills or intelligence to note previous references.
Thank you for your help

Here's my original post & source on the subject:

Apr 15, 2015 - 03:19pm PT
moosedrool! Re your comment:


Hillary it is.

My altruistic side wants more socialism.

The greedy side wants the stock market to go up.

Not a problem dude. Per this link to an article in FORTUNE magazine: the economy & of course the stock market does much better under Democratic presidents. Smirkle;) You can tell that it kinda pisses the Fortune folks off.

http://fortune.com/2014/07/29/economic-growth-democratic-presidents/


Explaining the mystery of fast economic growth under Democratic presidents


Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:17pm PT
There are only 2 types of republican voters
Millionaires and suckers

You have to be a sucker to vote for more income disparity, lower taxes for the rich, more pollution, more poverty, less jobs, lower wages, privatized jails, security, military, blah blah at the cost of more trillions in debt.

Their proposed budget adds $4 trillion in debt while increasing the military spending and gouging billions from food stamps, Medicare and other public services.

It is the exact opposite of a fiscally conservative budget, it's just a trillion dollar giveaway to the rich and powerful tyrants.

Only a sucker would vote to screw him/herself over, but that's the way propaganda works, the suckers just go along with it without question.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
Please post any qualification that ANY of the republican candidates have that are better than Hillary's
other than being a better liar, which appears to the Only qualification needed to be a Republican candidate
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
Millionaires and suckers...LOL...a good summary of the voters that hate paying taxes but vote for the Romney tax cheats that hide their wealth in secret bank accounts...Kick me , kick me...
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
Hillary will be the next president.

Saving this to bookmarks for an I told ya so later.

I was right about the Patriots winning this year before the playoffs started.. I don't like them either (broncos fan who knew we couldn't win)...I was right.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
Especially after 8 years of the worst "President" and malignant narcissist in the history of American politics?

I agree, after W anyone is an improvement.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
Her qualification is that she is not a republican lying sack of sh#t that wants to start WWIII and will put us in $4 trillion more debt, screw the working class and create more suffering and poverty in America.
Isn't that enough?
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:29pm PT
She has a lot more experience (8 years closely involved from within the whitehouse) with the presidency than any other candidate. Secretary of State. Senator. Law degree. Has run a good race before.

Smart Tough Professional. Be hard to find someone more qualified actually.

Sadly still a sellout as all who run must be.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
Benahazi was the death of three good people. A security situation that was not adequate and went fubar fast.

Broke? lol I wish I were that broke..

Email gate.. she broke the rules. You decide how much you care. I don't

accomplishment...

She ran the department of state in a very messy world and didn't blow it up.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
Everyone is a liar.. She does not have zero integrity.

As I recal you supported Romney last time... now that guy had a very hard time ever uttering a true statement while campaigning.... easily documented. It cost him the presidency.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
Benghazi.....and emailgate
End of debate

Fox News talking points are now being spewed as a factual cause for concern

Cragman, go ahead and don't vote for her, but stop looking like a complete moron for goodness sake, we know the truth, and you are more than just misinformed, you have drank the dark kool aid.


where are Jeb Bush's e-mails?
wiped clean

Huckabee?
he
paid $100,000 to wipe his e-mails clean

How about Karl Rove?
Wiped clean
CIA Torture??
Deleted

Hillary did nothing wrong when it came to e-mails other than being a Clinton facing the Right wing hit squad of hypocrites
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
What really bothers me about Hillary is the fact that she cannot work for the people due to the campaign donors.

I won't vote for her unless she comes out strongly for a constitutional ammendment I mentioned earlier.

I might vote for the republican if that person does.

I am now a one issue voter.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
innuendoinnuendoinnuendoinnuendoinnuendoinnuendoinnuendoinnuendo


typical statments of someone who has no facts to back up what he says


Where are your facts dude? I'll read 'em when I see 'em.

And while your digging for something that resembles an accomplishment, feel free to explain Benghazi.....and emailgate......and that she and Bill are "broke".......and.....and.......and.....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
What do the Republicans Have???

That is the one question Never answered

At least Hillary has something other than doom and despair



Childish

answer what the Republicans Have to show you know more than just Propaganda
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:42pm PT


What does it matter WHO you lot elect for president?

The attitude of American exceptionalism will prevail. Your agencies will continue to tell your citizens that your foreign policies are altruistic when it benefits only the very wealthy of the corporatocracy.

Your media is propagandized; US Democratic process is dead.

Hillary Clinton is just another piece of meat like Obama and the Bushes before her.

Woman? White? Black? Blue? Red? Left ? Right?

Who cares.

Flame away.

Yeah, our country is just as bad. Bought off by America Incorporated or handed over to the Chinese.

Ugh.

Correct, just another criminal puppet. This one with a vagina (in theory). It's amusing how easily the sheep are herded. "Time for a woman", etc.... without a thought...

The only one that almost strayed was Bush because he was too f$#ing stupid to stick to the script and/or he couldn't read it. Luckily the sith lord Cheney kept him in line.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
Yes, I am ready for Hillary

Because the Republicans have nothing more than fear, doom and gloom

They ruined this country more than any terrorist group could ever do.

Thanks Bush and the suckers that put him to office, you really f*#ked us up



No difference WTF????
can any one be that dumb??
They are diametrically opposed!!!!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
Read the last page

she has everything needed to be President
and the Republican clown car will be paraded around as the JV contenders with zero qualifications and suckers will vote for them because they are too stupid to realize how brainwashed they are.

So you have a choice
a qualified person, Hillary
or a carnival barker that has done nothing except criticize our Government and shut down progress and the economic recovery, they are treasonous.
They could have done something to help, but instead they made things worse.

What have they done??
Why would anyone vote for the Republicans?
Give us One good reason?????????
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
Cragman: Per your requests for some Hillary Clinton qualifications:

Here's an article from financial magazine U.S. New & World Report. I perceive them as a middle of the road magazine, and how could a financial magazine be a left-wing mouthpiece?

Hillary Clinton's Accomplishments Speak for Themselves
Rather than talking about her husband's past, we should be discussing her future

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/leslie-marshall/2014/02/19/hillary-clintons-accomplishments-speak-for-themselves

Although her major initiative, the Clinton health care plan failed, it certainly set the groundwork for the health care law we have today, the Affordable Care Act. And she played a leading role in advocating the creation of the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides state support for children whose parents cannot provide them with health coverage. She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses. She also played a leading role in creation of the Adoption and Safe Families Act and the Foster Care Independence Act. She encouraged older women to seek a mammogram for early detection of breast cancer (which is covered by Medicare) and successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the NIH. She worked to investigate illnesses that were reportedly affecting Veterans of the Gulf War; now commonly known as Gulf War Syndrome. And she created an Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. She is also the first first lady to hold a post graduate degree, and she traveled to more countries than any other first lady had at that time.



As a U.S. senator, she was the first first lady to be elected to this office. She was instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment. She subsequently took a leading role in investigating the health issues that 9/11 first responders were facing.

After visiting soldiers in Iraq, Clinton noted that the insurgency had failed to disrupt the democratic elections held earlier, and that parts of the country were functioning well. Noting that war deployments were draining regular and reserve forces, she cointroduced legislation to increase the size of the regular Army by 80,000 soldiers to ease the strain and supported retaining and improving health benefits for veterans. She also she introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act.

That was just in her first term. She was easily re-elected and accomplished much in her second term as well. And who can forget her run for the presidency, receiving more than 17 million votes during the nomination process?


As our secretary of state, Clinton visited 112 countries, helping to repair a badly damaged U.S. reputation. She advocated an expanded role in global economic issues for the State Department and cited the need for an increased U.S. diplomatic presence, especially in Iraq, where the Defense Department had conducted diplomatic missions. Clinton unveiled the Global Hunger and Food Security program, prevailed over Vice President Biden to send an additional 21,000 troops to Afghanistan, saved the signing of a Turkish-Armenian accord, and assisted the president with major decisions as to the U.S. position with regard to the revolution in Egypt and the decision to use military force in Libya.

Hillary doesn't need the merits of her husband; nor does she need to be attacked for standing by her man after his affair. That is her private and personal decision. And the fact that we are still focused more on Bill than Hil speaks volumes to why the United States still has not had a female president.

But I tell you America, that time is coming ... brace yourselves.

Achievements vs the BS bluster of the current crop of Republican candidates.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
I don't give a sh#t about what her qualifications might be
I vote for one thing, to keep the fascists (Republicans/conservatives/libertarians) out of power
They have done so much destruction to our Country lately that we must do everything in our power to never let them have power again.

and once again, why vote Republican if you don't even know what the hell their agenda is, more pollution, more poverty, more tax cuts for the rich, higher taxes for the rest of us, less economic stability, more fees, more getting screwed by the man, more drug laws, more jailed minorities, more expensive healthcare, and on and on
You would have to be insane to vote for the Republicans, they are the very definition of BAD.

If you want old style Republican values (before they went completely fascist), vote for Hillary, she is that exactly.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 15, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
"Things are better".
Right on, locker!!

Yes, they are better. Remember 2008? Bush leaving the country in financial ruin? Invading the wrong country? You want that crowd back?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 15, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
Crankster.....please kindly list Hillary's so called "qualifications" that you seem to think she possesses.

Also...while you're at it...please tell us all what her accomplishments are throughout the course of her life, that would even make you think she was POTUS material.


@Cragman, because you are asking, I assume you have a candidate in mind for whom you can list the things you ask of Crankster.

How about that big guy from NJ, does he suit your fancy? Or are there others whom you feel have, throughout the course of their lives, shown that they have the right stuff.

It's not fair to ask that others put up if you cannot yourself!



feel free to explain Benghazi.....

And that does it, this remark of yours shows how you have bought into the lies that right-wing hate media have sold you. Don't you know, a Republican-run task force found there was nothing in the Benghazi deal. And that was after something like 5 other full-bore hearings and inquiries that reported there is nothing there there.

link: House Intel Committee Reveals Benghazi Findings

A report unanimously adopted by the Republican-led House Intelligence Committee last week flatly contradicts a number of criticisms of the Obama administration’s response to the September 11, 2012 attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya.

Yet you still believe there is something there. How many more wasted million$ will your and your ilk spend on this wild goose chase?

WASHINGTON — House Republicans are planning to spend as much as $3.3 million for this year's operations of the special committee they created in May to investigate the September 2012 Benghazi attacks, a bigger budget than the House Veterans Affairs and Ethics committees were given this year.

It really makes me sick...
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 15, 2015 - 08:41pm PT

It is election day Nov 7th, 2007

Republicans have the control of the Presidency and congress.

The US economy is imploding, ten million Americans have lost their jobs

trillions of dollars of Americans savings in their retirement accounts are cut in half
by the stock market that is losing 500 points a day

The US is officially in Recession having recorded nine months of negative growth

The worst foreign policy disaster in US history, Iraq, is fully evident to anyone who read




and guess what?


50 MILLION dumb ass people vote for the Republican candidates, John McCain and SARAH

anyway, they vote Republican, anyway.......



old saying, when you standing in the trading pit and everything is going to hell

look in the mirror, because it is you and no one else who is the dumbest in the land

Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Apr 15, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
America has no real leaders who want to lead to begin with.

Only puppets in the District of Criminals.

America needs Putinators.

A whole army of Putinators to save us from stoopid crankloons of America ....

A fascinating observation . . . America has been so hoodwinked by "leaders" throughout it's history. Unfortunately such leaders are usually members of the ruling economic and political aristocracy, purposefully propagating the necessary propaganda to promote their pernicious predilections.

While I admire Putin's persistent psychosis, I can't help but see him as yet another Billionaire maggot feeding on the flesh of the poor, victimized mass of humanity upon whose carcasses such abominations feed.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 15, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
Three reasons to vote for Hillary -

1. She knows where the skeletons are buried.
2. She has leftover axes still to be ground.
3. She is post-menopausal and I can attest firsthand that this type of woman is hard to say "no" to if you want to keep your head on your shoulders.

These three reasons should ensure one way or the other things will be different in Washington and work might actually get done.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 15, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
What has always irritated the hell out of me are the candidates that include Jesus in their resume to get votes then turn around and screw the f*#k out of the poor people by helping helping their wealthy donors...What's even more annoying are the delusional righteous that fall for this blatant used car salesmanship ...rj
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Apr 15, 2015 - 09:03pm PT
In God We Trust motherf*#ker.

Just be glad you are not black.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 15, 2015 - 09:05pm PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 15, 2015 - 09:06pm PT
Let's have a dinner party, who should we invite?

link: Republican Party presidential candidates, 2012



Hahahahahahahaha. How are they going to beat that?


Boy, it's times like these that I really miss Hedge.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Apr 15, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
Slim pickin'sssszza!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 15, 2015 - 09:40pm PT
Locker!
I know doze conservative boyze got some smarts, but they are ate up with hate.

So much hate and not enought smarts,

(not to mention problems with reading comprehension & memory.)

Makes them want to vote Republican.
SweetWilliam

Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
Apr 15, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
I won't be old enough yet maybe if she wins and goes again. shes like a cool badass gramma and dont take crap off anybody. who is going against her is it that mormon dude again?

Daphne

Trad climber
Northern California
Apr 15, 2015 - 10:37pm PT
Please be civil, guys, this is the one OT political thread I am actually interested in.

I am on the fence about Hillary, mostly because I am afraid she will not be electable. This is the country that voted for Bush because he was easy to have a beer with. scrubbing bubbles blatant sexism represents a significant voting factor. Cragman represents the fox idiocy. Is the country ready for a whip smart, outspoken, liberal, postmenopausal, take no sh#t Woman? I don't think we are, given that women still don't earn equal wages and rape culture abounds.

And I cannot imagine a return to the repub years, which is what we will have with any of the repubs in the field. The religious right and the tea party still rules the republicans. Ugh! If they could float a socially liberal, financially conservative candidate, they would stand a chance in my book. But as socially liberal ideals are key for me, it's always going to be the Dems for me.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 15, 2015 - 11:14pm PT
Rachel Madow had a segment tonight on how the GOP is making a move to privatize the Veterans Administration. Interesting indeed...
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Apr 16, 2015 - 12:43am PT
Thanks Daphne.
Agree with you 100%
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 16, 2015 - 12:46am PT
You don't care that the person you wish to elect POTUS is a liar, and has zero integrity?

Wait, did I miss something - are W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Libby, Addington, Wolfowitz, Abrams, Perl, Feith, Woolsey, Gonzales or Bolton running?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 16, 2015 - 05:17am PT
No idea who the top candidate may be next January, but I'd like to hear what Christie and Kasich have to say. On the fence about Bush and Paul. No interest in Cruz, Perry, Santorum or Carson. About the others? Meh.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 16, 2015 - 07:09am PT
dirtbag

climber
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:10am PT
I actually thought military action in Yugoslavia was long overdue, given the slaughter that was going on.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:13am PT
LOL, Sketch wants to hear what Huckabee has to say.

How about you, Republican Dave. Who is your favorite GOP hopeful? Why?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:23am PT
Craig, what libertarian has "destroyed" this country and how?


Hell, libertarians rarely get elected.

I like Rand Paul, but think that Bush has a better chance to beat Clinton.
Jeb is far more sensible and grounded than his brother, and showed strong leadership as a governor.
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:28am PT
Hell, libertarians rarely get elected.

Good thing, too. Last thing we need is "market forces" determining proper levels of air and water pollution.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:40am PT
The Libertarians destroyed Chile and Iraq

They were to be the Great Libertarian experiments that would demonstrate how well it would work if let loose in totality.

And as predicted, the rich and powerful depots take over and the lack of regulation force the population into poverty or worse.

There are very few real Liberations, mostly just fake ones that don't have a clue what they are all about.

if you agree with these then you are true libertarian;
repeal SS
repeal Medicare, Medicaid
privatize all education, roads, all social services
eliminate any regulation that hinders corporate profits
eliminate all pollution laws
give more tax cuts to the rich, raise taxes on the poor and middle class

it's a sickness, you have to be very rich and a sociopath to be a true libertarian.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:42am PT
In 1980, David Koch ran as the Libertarian Party’s vice-presidential candidate in 1980.

Let’s take a look at the 1980 Libertarian Party platform.

Here are just a few excerpts of the Libertarian Party platform that David Koch ran on in 1980:
•“We urge the repeal of federal campaign finance laws, and the immediate abolition of the despotic Federal Election Commission.”
•“We favor the abolition of Medicare and Medicaid programs.”
•“We oppose any compulsory insurance or tax-supported plan to provide health services, including those which finance abortion services.”
•“We also favor the deregulation of the medical insurance industry.”
•“We favor the repeal of the fraudulent, virtually bankrupt, and increasingly oppressive Social Security system. Pending that repeal, participation in Social Security should be made voluntary.”
•“We propose the abolition of the governmental Postal Service. The present system, in addition to being inefficient, encourages governmental surveillance of private correspondence. Pending abolition, we call for an end to the monopoly system and for allowing free competition in all aspects of postal service.”
•“We oppose all personal and corporate income taxation, including capital gains taxes.”
•“We support the eventual repeal of all taxation.”
•“As an interim measure, all criminal and civil sanctions against tax evasion should be terminated immediately.”
•“We support repeal of all law which impede the ability of any person to find employment, such as minimum wage laws.”
•“We advocate the complete separation of education and State. Government schools lead to the indoctrination of children and interfere with the free choice of individuals. Government ownership, operation, regulation, and subsidy of schools and colleges should be ended.”
•“We condemn compulsory education laws … and we call for the immediate repeal of such laws.”
•“We support the repeal of all taxes on the income or property of private schools, whether profit or non-profit.”
•“We support the abolition of the Environmental Protection Agency.”
•“We support abolition of the Department of Energy.”
•“We call for the dissolution of all government agencies concerned with transportation, including the Department of Transportation.”
•“We demand the return of America's railroad system to private ownership. We call for the privatization of the public roads and national highway system.”
•“We specifically oppose laws requiring an individual to buy or use so-called "self-protection" equipment such as safety belts, air bags, or crash helmets.”
•“We advocate the abolition of the Federal Aviation Administration.”
•“We advocate the abolition of the Food and Drug Administration.”
•“We support an end to all subsidies for child-bearing built into our present laws, including all welfare plans and the provision of tax-supported services for children.”
•“We oppose all government welfare, relief projects, and ‘aid to the poor’ programs. All these government programs are privacy-invading, paternalistic, demeaning, and inefficient. The proper source of help for such persons is the voluntary efforts of private groups and individuals.”
•“We call for the privatization of the inland waterways, and of the distribution system that brings water to industry, agriculture and households.”
•“We call for the repeal of the Occupational Safety and Health Act.”
•“We call for the abolition of the Consumer Product Safety Commission.”
•“We support the repeal of all state usury laws.”


http://www.sanders.senate.gov/koch-brothers
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:48am PT
Criminy, are ALL of you retired?

looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:56am PT
That "Libertarian" platform sounds like "paradise" or maybe "Road Warrior" --depending on how much money you have for your own private compound and militia.

Who cares about rap bolting, I want to know if Hillary supports power drilling.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 16, 2015 - 09:08am PT
This a good discussion...better hurry before you-know-who shows up and this thread gets very, very cold.


Crankster... care to name names, Kind Sir?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 16, 2015 - 09:10am PT
hey Guyman, good troll on Pyro
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 16, 2015 - 09:12am PT
The shallow side of the electorate will vote for Hillary

To simply vote for someone based on their gender, and not on their substance of qualifications as well as their level of integrity, is shameful.

Ah Cragman, the morality cop is here - that self-appointed self-righteous bastion of integrity! Look busy!

Obama is a little girl who soiled his panties.

How are you going to insult Hillary - by calling her black?

Shameful and shallow seems like a good description ... of you :-)

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 16, 2015 - 09:22am PT
No one's voting for her just because she is a women
That would be shallow.

But that is the lie they will promote, just like the only reason we voted for Obama was because he's black.
What other lies?
that she isn't qualified, Benghazi, email gate, monica, blah blah endless blah.

It's all they have, lies and smear tactics. Create hate for her the second she gets out the gate, and keep up the hate as loud as possible.

If any Republican voter knew the Republican's true agenda they would only get about 1% of the vote.
what does that equate to: that 99% of the Republican voters are just suckers that fall for the BS they spew.
The right wing media are smart, they know how to manipulate weak minds.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Apr 16, 2015 - 09:27am PT
The political IQ being so I high on this forum, I'm sure Hillary's team is following this thread with the close attention that it warrants.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 16, 2015 - 10:25am PT
Lifelong liar.

Jerry Zeifman, a lifelong Democrat, supervised the work of 27-year-old Hillary Rodham on the committee. Hillary got a job working on the investigation at the behest of her former law professor, Burke Marshall, who was also Sen. Ted Kennedy’s chief counsel in the Chappaquiddick affair. When the investigation was over, Zeifman fired Hillary from the committee staff and refused to give her a letter of recommendation – one of only three people who earned that dubious distinction in Zeifman’s 17-year career.

Why?

“Because she was a liar,” Zeifman said in an interview last week. “She was an unethical, dishonest lawyer. She conspired to violate the Constitution, the rules of the House, the rules of the committee and the rules of confidentiality




The brief involved precedent for representation by counsel during an impeachment proceeding. When Hillary endeavored to write a legal brief arguing there is no right to representation by counsel during an impeachment proceeding, Zeifman says, he told Hillary about the case of Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, who faced an impeachment attempt in 1970.

“As soon as the impeachment resolutions were introduced by (then-House Minority Leader Gerald) Ford, and they were referred to the House Judiciary Committee, the first thing Douglas did was hire himself a lawyer,” Zeifman said.

The Judiciary Committee allowed Douglas to keep counsel, thus establishing the precedent. Zeifman says he told Hillary that all the documents establishing this fact were in the Judiciary Committee’s public files. So what did Hillary do?

“Hillary then removed all the Douglas files to the offices where she was located, which at that time was secured and inaccessible to the public,” Zeifman said. Hillary then proceeded to write a legal brief arguing there was no precedent for the right to representation by counsel during an impeachment proceeding – as if the Douglas case had never occurred.

The brief was so fraudulent and ridiculous, Zeifman believes Hillary would have been disbarred if she had submitted it to a judge.

Zeifman says that if Hillary, Marshall, Nussbaum and Doar had succeeded, members of the House Judiciary Committee would have also been denied the right to cross-examine witnesses, and denied the opportunity to even participate in the drafting of articles of impeachment against Nixon.

Of course, Nixon’s resignation rendered the entire issue moot, ending Hillary’s career on the Judiciary Committee staff in a most undistinguished manner. Zeifman says he was urged by top committee members to keep a diary of everything that was happening. He did so, and still has the diary if anyone wants to check the veracity of his story. Certainly, he could not have known in 1974 that diary entries about a young lawyer named Hillary Rodham would be of interest to anyone 34 years later.

But they show that the pattern of lies, deceit, fabrications and unethical behavior was established long ago – long before the Bosnia lie, and indeed, even before cattle futures, Travelgate and Whitewater – for the woman who is still asking us to make her president of the United States.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/hillary-clinton-fired-for-lies-unethical-behavior/
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 16, 2015 - 10:37am PT
Obama is a little girl who soiled his panties.

Are our politicians really any worse than the best of the best of us? I think that they are us, we just don't like the reflection.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 16, 2015 - 10:49am PT
I do like Hillary




Swank.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 16, 2015 - 11:01am PT
The time to learn to speak chinese is now.

You're behind the times. Japan has replaced China as the biggest foregn buyer of U. S. debt, per the Wall Street Journal.

And Norton, I, too, was quite surprised to learn that 50 million people voted for McCain/Palin in 2007.

Seriously, the reason Hillary does not have me "foaming at the mouth" (as allegedly all Republicans do) is because she does have a track record of pragmatism, and an ability to negotiate, not just vilify.

Heck, in Iowa, she even sounded like a conservative when talking about small business. Maybe she decided that businesses create jobs after all. NBC certainly created one for Chelsea.

John
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Apr 16, 2015 - 11:33am PT
Well I do know some japanese so am still ahead of the game.

I like the way Craig tries to put somebody else's platform from 35 years ago as words in my mouth.


I guess I would qualify as a moderate libertarian. Take the pollution example. We ought to determine carrying capacity, split it up into "shares", and offer it up to potential polluters on a free market basis.

If a manufacturer can't afford the shares it can't pollute.

One of the problems that we have now is that we only buy things based on the cost of materials plus the cost to manufacture, distribute, and middle men in the exchanges, but we do not include the cost of disposal or the cost to the environment.

Often enough things are sold for less than the sum of their production and disposal cost.

Pretty foolish financially, unless you are the polluter who profits.
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
Apr 16, 2015 - 11:48am PT
If a manufacturer can't afford the shares it can't pollute.

How reassuring.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 16, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
Toker Villain, you and I seem to have quite similar ideas on pollution. I knew I should have stopped in Toquerville when I passed through a couple of years ago.

John
dirtyone

Big Wall climber
CA
Apr 16, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
Even Bill didn't want her......
dirtbag

climber
Apr 16, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
^^^ The Clintons.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Apr 16, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
I'm fairly liberal and fairly Democrat. But I have to say, I'm not sold on Hillary.

For one, I don't like this dynastic thing we've got going.

For two, I don't like the email thing. I doubt there is any real fire there, but it shows really poor judgment on that part of her and her team. It makes it seem like she had something to hide. In the business I'm in, there are lot of fairly strict rules about not sending anything business related on a private email. And having her own team go through and clean up what they deemed to be "private" just opens the door to criticism.

But I'm not sure who is better. Warren doesn't want to run and is probably too liberal to win in the general. Biden is uninspiring. Maybe Jim Webb. Or I'd be tempted to vote for John Huntsman, but he'd never get through the GOP primaries.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 16, 2015 - 03:12pm PT
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Apr 16, 2015 - 03:32pm PT
I love the look on Bill O'Reily's face!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2015 - 04:03pm PT
So far the Republitards haven't got anyone better than the ridiculous 11 + 2 Mormons of 2012
Yes, 11 Republican morons. Bachmann, Ron Paul, Rick Perry, Herman Cain etc.
I found it odd that the best one, Huntsman got nowhere and that they couldn't find anyone else better than Romulus. And 2 Mormons? I never thought I'd see THAT and I grew up in Utaaahhhhr.

Hillary, E Warren and Bernie Sanders. Any one of them are better than Rand Paul, Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio. Chris Christie? give me a break!
Carly Fiorina? Her capitalist executive experience? She single handedly ran down Hewlett Packard to a shadow of it's former self. After 6 years, the board finally booted her. Donald Trump is a more successful capitalist.

No candidate gets my vote until the last few days before the election. They have to earn it.
SweetWilliam

Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
Apr 16, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
we had am history last year and one of the old timey pres was a real bigfat guy taft he was like 350.
perswig

climber
Apr 16, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
Olympia Snowe/Elizabeth Warren.

Dale
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 16, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 16, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
she did stand by Bill when he was getting naughty with his cigars ... but beyond that .... Zero

This is what Cragman sees as Hillary's only accomplishment - that she stood by her man when he was caught cheating on her, just like a woman should. That's what he calls integrity ... for a woman.

Obama is a little girl who soiled his panties.

Ouch! How insulting, because little girls are, well, girls. Obama, he's, well, ...

Sure, it's all about political ideology in our massive brains.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 16, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
Sweet...!!!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 16, 2015 - 06:37pm PT

Libertarianism in America: A Phony Ideology to Promote a Corporate Agenda

Before Milton Friedman was earning plaudits as an economic genius, he was a shill for the real estate industry and an early pioneer for big business propaganda known as libertarianism.

By Mark Ames / NSFWCORP
September 6, 2013


Every couple of years, mainstream media hacks pretend to have just discovered libertarianism as some sort of radical, new and dynamic force in American politics. It’s a rehash that goes back decades, and hacks love it because it’s easy to write, and because it’s such a non-threatening “radical” politics (unlike radical left politics, which threatens the rich). The latest version involves a summer-long pundit debate in the pages of the New York Times, Reason magazine and elsewhere over so-called “libertarian populism.” It doesn’t really matter whose arguments prevail, so long as no one questions where libertarianism came from or why we’re defining libertarianism as anything but a big business public relations campaign, the winner in this debate is Libertarianism.

Pull up libertarianism’s floorboards, look beneath the surface into the big business PR campaign’s early years, and there you’ll start to get a sense of its purpose, its funders, and the PR hucksters who brought the peculiar political strain of American libertarianism into being — beginning with the libertarian movement’s founding father, Milton Friedman. Back in 1950, the House of Representatives held hearings on illegal lobbying activities and exposed both Friedman and the earliest libertarian think-tank outfit as a front for business lobbyists. Those hearings have been largely forgotten, in part because we’re too busy arguing over the finer points of “libertarian populism.”

read more
http://www.alternet.org/visions/true-history-libertarianism-america-phony-ideology-promote-corporate-agenda
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 16, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
Maybe she decided that businesses create jobs after all. NBC certainly created one for Chelsea

I didn't know that Chelsea was working at NBC, but I do see Bush's daughter Jenna as a field reporter all the time on their morning show.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 16, 2015 - 06:54pm PT
Think how it will look to the world if Bush III gets it.
Third time the charm?
Three wrongs don't make a President.
Bush I wasn't too bad. Better than Harding I suppose.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 16, 2015 - 07:24pm PT
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/may/08/context-hillary-clintons-what-difference-does-it-m/

A republican senator was rudely grilling the Secratary of state.. saying she was making excuses..that she misled them...

Her reply to a crude questioning...

"With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that they’d they go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make? It is our job to figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again, Senator. Now, honestly, I will do my best to answer your questions about this, but the fact is that people were trying in real time to get to the best information. The IC has a process, I understand, going with the other committees to explain how these talking points came out. But you know, to be clear, it is, from my perspective, less important today looking backwards as to why these militants decided they did it than to find them and bring them to justice, and then maybe we’ll figure out what was going on in the meantime."
----


Indeed.. what difference does it make? Unless you are trying to use the dead bodies of 4 Americans serving their country to score some political points against a president and his cabinet

Democrats never went after Reagan with this kind of dishonest pathetic pandering when he lost a couple hundred marines due to poor security in Lebanon.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 16, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
This Tea Party Patriot Is Voting For Hillary, Terrified He’ll Lose Obamacare If Republicans Win

Author: Vera April 16, 2015 10:44 am
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/04/16/this-tea-party-patriot-is-voting-for-hillary-terrified-hell-lose-obamacare-if-republicans-win-video/


This week, a conservative video blogger took to YouTube to tell his hundreds of followers why he would likely be voting for Hillary Clinton this election. The reason? Obamacare changed his life for the better, and he knows he might lose it if a Republican is elected.

“And I’m serious because I asked myself, ‘Which party has helped me out the most in the last, I don’t know, 15 years, 20?’ And it was the Democrat Party.”

This is what Webb had to say about how Obama changed his life, and why he wants to keep Democrats in the White House:

Webb explained to viewers, “If it wasn’t for Obama and that Obamacare, I would still be working.”


“With Obamacare, I got to retire at age 50 because if it wasn’t for Obamacare, I would have had to work until I was 65 and get on Medicare because health insurance is expensive when you’ve got medical problems.”


Despite reflecting on his history of supporting the Republican party for the last 32 years, Webb feels justified in his reason for voting differently this election. Although he said it was a “tough decision,” Webb is confident that he’s making the right choice.


“But you know, the Republican Party, they haven’t done nothing for me, man. Nothing. So, I’m leaning toward voting for Hillary unless something major comes up. I don’t trust the Republicans anymore because they’re wanting to repeal the Obamacare. And I don’t want them to do that, man, because then I’ll have to go to work again. My life’s already planned out.”
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Apr 17, 2015 - 07:25am PT

. . . to concede she's not what America wants or needs. . .
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 17, 2015 - 07:35am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.

Apr 16, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
This Tea Party Patriot Is Voting For Hillary, Terrified He’ll Lose Obamacare If Republicans Win

Classic leftwing propaganda.

Some rightwing video blogger, with an almost nonexistent following, endorses Hillary... and thanks to a leftwing outlet giving him coverage, he's indicative of rightwing sentiments.

Keep up the good work, Craig.

This stuff is hysterical.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2015 - 08:16am PT
This has nothing to do with the issue under discussion, but I find the below article amusing, and I do not want to start a new thread for it.

I am not a Dr. Oz fan!

Columbia University has not removed TV celebrity doctor Mehmet Oz from his faculty position as a group of top doctors have demanded, citing his "egregious lack of integrity" for promoting what they call "quack treatments."

"Dr. Oz has repeatedly shown disdain for science and for evidence-based medicine," said a letter the 10 physicians sent to a Columbia dean earlier this week. They say he's pushing "miracle" weight-loss supplements with no scientific proof that they work.

The New York Ivy League school responded Thursday, issuing a statement to The Associated Press saying only that the school "is committed to the principle of academic freedom and to upholding faculty members' freedom of expression for statements they make in public discussion."

Led by Dr. Henry Miller of California's Stanford University, the doctors sent the letter to Lee Goldman, dean of Columbia's Faculties of Health Sciences and Medicine. The nine other doctors from across the country included Dr. Joel Tepper, a cancer researcher from the University of North Carolina School of Medicine, and Dr. Gilbert Ross of the American Council on Science and Health in New York City.

The doctors wrote that Oz, for years a world-class Columbia cardiothoracic surgeon, "has manifested an egregious lack of integrity by promoting quack treatments and cures in the interest of personal financial gain." They said he has "misled and endangered" the public.

Oz first came to public attention as a frequent television guest of Oprah Winfrey. For the past five years, he's been the host of "The Dr. Oz Show."

Last year, he appeared before a U.S. Senate panel that accused him of endorsing products that were medically unsound. At the time, Oz acknowledged that some of the products he advised his viewers to use "don't have the scientific muster to present as fact."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/physicians-want-dr-oz-gone-from-columbia-medical-faculty/ar-AAb7Bzy
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2015 - 08:43am PT
Is Cmac too bored to freeze this thread?



Scrubbing.... No personal attacks yet..... I like it.

This is going to be one FUN election.......

For me the big decider will be when the question is asked: "what about the legal POT in Colorado?"

The answer should tell all one needs to know about a candidate.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 17, 2015 - 08:49am PT
Really? If they support legalization what does it say?.. they stand up for real justice and not imprisoning decent people? Or that they stand up for the companies that can make Billions selling weed?

The second one is the real reason weed will be federally legal in the next 5 to 15 years.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 17, 2015 - 08:52am PT
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2015 - 09:21am PT
Really? If they support legalization what does it say?..


Says a few things, To ME at least.

#1.... Not afraid to actually discuss an Issue.

#2.... Will say a lot about their thinking on a topic called "personal freedom"

#3 ..... and will give a strong indication of what they see as the role of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

Carry on people... I look forward to peoples comments on this most important issue.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 17, 2015 - 09:28am PT
I didn't know that Chelsea was working at NBC
Either did anyone else, although she was paid $600,000.00 per annum.

John
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Apr 17, 2015 - 09:38am PT
Since your in the know John, how much does Jenna Bush make working for them too?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2015 - 10:39am PT
Doncha just love it when Repugs call Hillary a liar?

Then they went and voted for a team of liars that resulted in the deaths & dismemberment of thousands of Americans & world citizens.

TGT, you and your ilk have the market cornered on hypocrisy.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 17, 2015 - 10:44am PT
False Statements = lies

Study: Bush, aides made 935 false statements in run-up to Iraq about WMDs

edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/23/bush.iraq/


CNN International

Jan 24, 2008 - President Bush and his top aides publicly made 935 false statements about the security risk posed by Iraq in the two years following September ...


We will be welcomed as liberators, except for those million that we killed for no reason

Iraq's Shocking Human Toll: About 1 Million Killed, 4.5 Million displaced



http://www.alternet.org/.../iraq's_shocking_human_toll%3A_about_1_...


Feb 1, 2009 - We are now able to estimate the number of Iraqis who have died in the war instigated by the Bush administration. Looking at the empirical ...


It was all about bringing Democracy to Iraq

Greenspan admits Iraq was about oil, as deaths put at 1.2m ...

http://www.theguardian.com › World › Iraq

The Guardian


Sep 16, 2007 - More than one million deaths were already being suggested by anti-war ... If true, these latest figures would suggest the death toll in Iraq now ...



Is there something that Republicans don't lie about?
That is their only game plan. lie to get the suckers to support they're awful destructive agenda. They are so duped that they don't even know what they're voting FOR.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2015 - 10:45am PT
TGT, you and your ilk have the market cornered on hypocrisy.


APP.... how can you make such a preposterous statement????

That is crazy talk man.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2015 - 10:55am PT
guy, what's crazy was voting for CheneyBushCo not once...but twice...when that administration lied through it's f*#king teeth to the American people so that it could go to war, kill thousands for the profit benefit of a few corporate giants.

...and then getting all self-righteous about 'lying'.

That's crazy, guy.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:15am PT
It's time to Grease Monkey TGT

I don't appreciate viewing his sexist, racist, bigoted cartoons that are based on non-issues and pure BS propaganda.

It's just shows the unethicalness, immorality and cluelessness of your typical Republican Dope. They will come up with the most disgusting, lying, sickening smears of any Democrat, and then double down on even worse for Hillary.

It's truly disgusting, and I feel embarrassed for him.
He has no apparent filter for not being a complete tool for the robber barons, and I'm sure that as the season goes on, they will just get more and more disgusting
Carry on.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:16am PT
Says a few things, To ME at least.

#1.... Not afraid to actually discuss an Issue.

#2.... Will say a lot about their thinking on a topic called "personal freedom"

#3 ..... and will give a strong indication of what they see as the role of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

Carry on people... I look forward to peoples comments on this most important issue.

Kinda curious how all the government controls and taxes that are being imposed on weed where it is legal is about personal freedom? And you can be sure when it's legal federally, they'll be more taxes added on top of the state taxes.

All I'd like to see is the left applying the same level of scrutiny to their candidates as they do to those on the right.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:21am PT
What are the Republican opinions on this issue?


Chris Christy is not afraid to talk about the issue
He says he will make Pot illegal in all States.

Chris Christie vows to 'crack down' on marijuana as president
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/16/politics/chris-christie-marijuana/

The Republicans are still supporting "The on War on Drugs", they make money by putting more people in jail.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:25am PT
guy, what's crazy was voting for CheneyBushCo not once...but twice...when that administration lied through it's f*#king teeth to the American people so that it could go to war, kill thousands for the profit benefit of a few corporate giants.

...and then getting all self-righteous about 'lying'.

That's crazy, guy.


Agree 100% ..... when Bush and company were comparing their "achievements" to Winston Churchill and Roosevelt's during WW2..... I had to gag multiple times.... and cry too. But don't get all high and mighty... Democrats do a far share of lying about stuff also.... can you say "TONKIN GULF"?

And to Craig.... stop crying about offensive stuff... almost everything you cut n paste is total nonsense, IMHO, good Sir.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:27am PT
What non-sense???

Please note, it is all factual
I guess facts don't sit well with Republicans
and that is a fact!

They are cut and paste because they are the facts at the heart of the issue,
that's where Facts come from, not me repeating them.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:27am PT
I'm still perplexed how Republican candidates can say "I'm the most conservative choice" in the primary. 38% of Americans are conservative, 34% Moderate, 24% liberal. So they are basically saying they are only going to represent 38% of Americans.

An awesome thing about of founding fathers vision and our country is our system was designed with checks and balances to help represent everyone. Do people really not see that and think that everything should only be their way?

I'm not naive enough to think that only one side or the other are liars, and are controlled way too much by special interest, but at least the Dems give lip service to being in the middle and working for compromise and for everyone. Once the general election begins Republicans change their tune, but do they really think people will forget what they said a few months ago?

Maybe the Republican's intransigence is driving people from being moderate to being Liberal as the polls have been moving. Which I think is a bad thing. I'd rather see more from both sides move to the middle.

When the Repubs won state legislatures and gerrymandered districts to give them more representatives the worst impact IMO was more far right conservatives who refuse to compromise, and are bigots in the classic sense of the word, which is intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. Maybe that is a result of their worldview often being built on belief rather than reason?
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:31am PT
So let's correct that wrong by electing OUR liar, eh?

Not a convincing line of argument.

Seriously?! Haven't you been paying attention? :-) It's wildly convincing. The only flaw is that he made it consciously explicit. Otherwise, "Yea us! Boo them!" is always a winner.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:32am PT
Hilary said both her grandparents were immigrants


That's a lie only one was immigrated...



JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:36am PT
The Fet,

The conservatives of the Republican party are where their energy lies, particularly in primary contests. They're organized and plentiful when one considers only Republicans. Those of us who are more moderate have the Ripon Society within the Republican party, but not much else.

Sad to say, too much of the Republican Party thinks Henry Clay got it right, as in "I'd rather be right than President." They want their candidate perfectly to the right, blissfully unconcerned that such a candidate will not be elected President.

If Hillary can avoid a serious challenge from the left in the primary season, and keep her foot out of her mouth, she can easily claim the central ground that wins general elections.

As odious and slippery as Team Clinton can be, the electorate wants competance, and remembers Clinton I as a time of prosperity, because it was - once HillaryCare got a Republican congress elected. AS long as the Republicans are running senators, not governors, the electorate has no reason to think the Republican candidate knows how to govern.

Sad, but true.

John

Edit: (i.e. P.S.)
When the Repubs won state legislatures and gerrymandered districts to give them more representatives the worst impact IMO was more far right conservatives who refuse to compromise, and are bigots in the classic sense of the word, which is intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

It doesn't matter whose gerrymander it is (see California). Every gerrymander in modern times has entrenched extremists of both parties, to the detriment of the general welfare.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:43am PT
I'm sick and tired of these family dynasties in American politics. Two Bushes, and now a third is gonna make a run!? Bill then Hillary, and you know Chelsea is in the wings. And how about Michelle Obama, how can she not want to be the first African American woman President? Does she have 2020 visions?

The office keeps gaining more and more power, and it is held by a very small set of people who pretend to be different from each other.

The word's out, they think the electorate is too stupid to have a clue. And for the most part they're right. Why the push for higher turnout? Think about it.

Rant over.
this just in

climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:43am PT
The biggest question is whether or not cigars will be involved in her Presidency?
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:45am PT
I wonder how she feels about the federal lands transfer to state/pvt interests?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2015 - 11:48am PT
"But don't get all high and mighty."

Not a chance. It's the nature of politics to bend or warp truth beyond recognition to persuade the masses. Given that, their bullshit lies along a spectrum of severity, with lies that result in mostly making them look like as#@&%es (i.e. Bill Clinton, John Edwards, etc.) on one end, and on the other end, lying to benefit a few corporate cronies at the expense of thousands of lives & limbs. That is true, unadulterated EVIL.

When TGT & his ilk try to equate the two so that they can get their own political party back into power (so they can wreak the same havoc again), it's frighteningly pathetic.


Edit :"The office keeps gaining more and more power..."

You really think so? If that's the case, Obama just isn't savvy enough to use it...because if he was, and the power was actually there, his legacy would be a helluva lot less milquetoast.
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 17, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
sigh. Goddamn it, now the price of ammo's going to spike again.

Just 33 more posts to go.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Apr 17, 2015 - 12:39pm PT
Shoot Johnny, the ammo should get cheaper; white men don't fear white women like they do black men.
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 17, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
Nah, it's like insurance and gasoline... price went up yesterday and won't come down for at least six months or without a congressional investigation. Hell, not even then!

Glad I built an AR now, cause the Clinton gun ban maybe returning, part deux! The closer we get to election day, the higher the prices will soar.

Hey... enterprising business opportunity:
1. Buy all the scary looking guns and ammo you can NOW.
2. Sell them the week before election. You could easily turn a 3-fold profit, maybe more. Don't forget the hi-cap mags!

Even if Romney takes it, you're likely to see at least a month-long period of sustained profits, due to the substantially low rate of Bubba's computer literacy, tendency for confirmational bias toward whispered innuendo and conspiracy theory, and politically-motivated hoarding in general.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Apr 17, 2015 - 01:00pm PT
I got rid of my black gun 3 years ago, it was a pre-ban early 80's Colt. Not into that crap anymore. I stopped by the shop I sold it to a couple weeks ago lookin' for other stuff and asked the fella what it was worth today and it is hella less. He said the reason was there are so many 'good' copies out there.. Certain Colts hold value, especially the 70's civilian(haha) models.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 17, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
Just continue the dynastic tradition!

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 17, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
Hey
this is not the Gun thread!
That was Frozen for too much Gun talk

Don't screw this thread up boys, keep it civil
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 17, 2015 - 01:23pm PT
Omg locker is ready!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 17, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
Everyone in America is an immigrant, even the Native Americans


and who f-ing cares??
only those that won't vote for her anyway, it's just another ugly smear.
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 17, 2015 - 01:35pm PT
Well, it's a political thread, so by definition it's already screwed. Furthermore, given past Clinton history, it relevant... right up there with cigar smoke.

Do you think her regime will push the agenda developing as mentioned in this
(http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2610751/Wilderness-Management-Coming-to-Park-Near-You);
thread? And, incidentally, how would that compare to the burgeoning state-rights movements that wish to seize control back from the feds? Personally, I think having clear-cut federal regs often does better for the public freedom than what we'd likely see from local control of public lands. What I've seen from local land control often overlooks and discriminates against user groups of which it is ignorant or biased against.

Ooh... 24 more posts and this thread could be legendary.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 17, 2015 - 01:59pm PT
hat loony nazi Rand Paul will make the biggest waves...he may sneak in, like Hitler did

While I agree he is loony, he is no Nazi. He's more like an isolationist from the 1930's.

John
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 17, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
"He's more like an isolationist from the 1930's."


Well, that would be interesting to see the GOP tap a candidate with isolationist tendencies, given their longstanding preference for imperialism & world dominance over the last few decades, wouldn't it?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 17, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
Make no mistake, Rand Paul is a hot-tempered militant & he won't waste time in disposing of anyone with socialist, pinko tendencies


SB.... what do you base this on???? Got an example???

inquiring minds wish to know.
SweetWilliam

Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
Apr 17, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
Clintons old but so was that mcain guy. u want Paul Rand? u trust a guy wearin turtleneck and vest and got a hair perm? not me dude, hes like the suckup teacher pet preppy jerk.

go for gramma she seems smart and wont take no mess. get bill back in there no more bushs.
supafly

Trad climber
vancouver, bc
Apr 17, 2015 - 03:31pm PT
well said.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 17, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
He'd round up every obese bureaucrat who is eyeing a 40 year public pension and lock them in barbed-wire "Fat Camps" ....where they'd lose that fat sweating on treadmills 18 hours a day


GOOD!

Hook em up to a generator or a water pump and get some productive work out of em!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 17, 2015 - 04:22pm PT
Yes, we all know government never does anything well, and by extension, government employees are worthless and lazy. We should flog them too.
SweetWilliam

Boulder climber
TheSand,Man
Apr 17, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
look it this Paul Rand guy this guys werird

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 17, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
I'll bet more than one email account at a time won't overwhelm him though.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 17, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
Why even bother having a stoopid election!

I agree.. It's not like we get to choose who will be president anyway... unless you count choosing between two folks selected by money.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Apr 17, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
Dear Wbraun! It was wonderful for you to post the media source for your thoughts on this thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2610376&tn=140

Per another pundits investigation of your souce, perhaps you could find a less insane spot to draw conclusions from?



http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/02/05/hillary-clinton-profile-of-imperial-arrogance-and-lawlessness/


This group is a hotbed of rightwing conspiracy nonsense. Figures.

Southern Poverty Law Center:
Veterans Today (VT) is a website that bills itself as a “military veterans and foreign affairs journal.” And, indeed, many of its contributors are military veterans or veterans’ advocates from across the political spectrum. VT also offers some information about veterans’ benefits (lifted from the Veterans’ Administration) and links to home and other loans for vets.

But start reading the posts, and you’ll find something else entirely: myriad claims that there was a conspiracy behind 9/11 (Israel orchestrated it, in cahoots with the American government), that the American government is a puppet (of Israel), that the Holocaust never happened or was greatly exaggerated (Jews made it up to manipulate non-Jews), and, most recently, that Julian Assange, the man behind Wikileaks, is a pawn (of Israel).

Notice a theme?

Gordon Duff, the senior editor and chairman of the board at VT, is a prolific proponent of these anti-Israel conspiracy theories, including the Wikileaks claims. Though he does occasionally write on issues and policies that directly affect American veterans (he claims to be a Marine Vietnam veteran), most of his ammo is reserved for churning out articles that claim 9/11 was a U.S./Israel conspiracy and that Israel controls the U.S. government. According to Duff and VT contributors like author and attorney Jeff Gates, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), a civil rights watchdog group, and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), a lobbying group, are Zionist-controlled fronts for Israeli intelligence operations.

In December, Duff claimed that “insiders at the ADL” admitted that Israel was behind Wikileaks, perhaps a slam at an ADL piece a few days earlier. In that article, the ADL pointed out that many of the conspiracy theories about Israel and Wikileaks “are being promulgated by … anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist” Gordon Duff. Marilyn Mayo, a director at the ADL Center on Extremism, told Hatewatch that Duff did not speak to anyone at the ADL and, like other conspiracy theorists, he “makes information up and presents it as the truth.” Indeed, Duff claimed that the ADL website was “loading up with warnings and attacks” defending Wikileaks and Assange. But the ADL’s website claims nothing of the sort and Duff provides no evidence that the “ADL source” he says he is quoting actually exists.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 17, 2015 - 07:49pm PT
The Republicans are going to have a primary! (with two Hispanics, a woman and a complete spectrum of views from left to right)

The Demoncrats are going to have a coronation of the oligarch with a few billions monied by misogynistic, racist, oil monarchs.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 17, 2015 - 07:52pm PT
Yea us! Boo them!

Nice! You hit that one out of the park.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 17, 2015 - 08:06pm PT
Nothings changed much since the founding of the Republic and even millennia before.

Then none was for a party—
Then all were for the state;
Then the great man helped the poor,
And the poor man loved the great; 260
Then lands were fairly portioned!
Then spoils were fairly sold:
The Romans were like brothers
In the brave days of old.

Now Roman is to Roman 265
More hateful than a foe,
And the tribunes beard the high,
And the fathers grind the low.
As we wax hot in faction,
In battle we wax cold; 270
Wherefore men fight not as they fought
In the brave days of old.

Now while the three were tightening
Their harness on their backs,
The Consul was the foremost man 275
To take in hand an axe;
And fathers, mixed with commons,
Seized hatchet, bar, and crow,
And smote upon the planks above,
And loosed the props below.

http://www.bartleby.com/360/7/158.html
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:25am PT
Trumps hair is so big it generates its' own weather patterns...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 18, 2015 - 01:04pm PT
"... a complete spectrum of views from left to right"

What a crock of utter horsesh#t.

Somebody needs to save this TGT garbage comment for later in the race, when the GOP once again coronates a rich, old white guy named Bush for their savior.
saa

Social climber
sadly, far away from yos and josh
Apr 18, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
ilari




hyllariii



hyalllary



hiallliary


hhhouaullary



hillary

houuailli


yes! growwwlll!



it is time,




time for us, women.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 18, 2015 - 03:04pm PT
I have no problem with a woman in charge. I doubt the repugs could come up with anyone I could vote for but the nations has had enough Buschs and Clintons
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 18, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
Isn't Earl Scheib dead? On second thought aren't most of the folks whose names are being thrown around as future president of the great United States of America?

Warbler: You left the last one out, "null".



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2015 - 07:32pm PT
Potato Head...Who's keeping count...? You bored..?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 18, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
"progressives"cry and whine about the money in politics incessantly.

But now that their anointed queen Hildebeast has 2.5 billion to spend, most of it collected from racist misogynistic monarchs and tyrants, that's a good thing!

She's the best candidate the Saudis can buy!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 18, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
TGT...racist misogynists and tyrants...? when did you start supporting Hillary....rj
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Apr 18, 2015 - 08:00pm PT
What is funny to see is the turn TGT has already taken. No legitimate arguments, so posts lie after lie. Just throws it out there.

It allows you to see the mindset of the right. They don't feel any need to actually support anything they say, just throw it out, then move on to the next lie.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 18, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
"They don't feel any need to actually support anything they say, just throw it out, then move on to the next lie."


...and if anyone calls them on their bullsh#t, their reply: 'Prove it's not true! Google it yourself!'

Truly lazy 'intellectualism'.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
Elizabeth Warren makes Hillary look like Jeb Bush.
At least she's smart enough to realize her chances are less than slim.
She does appreciate the endorsement of The Robespierre Chowder And Marching Society.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
Face it - if there is anyone still left in the USofA who remotely resembles the "Best and the Brightest" - odds are heavy that they will never consider running for ANY elected office given the daily media enema we inflict upon our leaders.

Which leaves us with the choice of either the Republican Clown Car of Candidates or the Guilt Ridden Angst of Equality Roster of the Democrats.

We have already done the Black Guy thing - so I'm now free of my Southern Past. The question now becomes should I vote for the Female to appease the women in my life?

What I really wish for is someone with the charisma to get elected combined with the common sense of how to get things done.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:26pm PT
...scrubbles is a close second. Keep up the good work!
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
Cal Worthington and his dog Spot

FKNA!

Little short of cash go see Cal
Trouble over in a flash go see Cal
Down Payment he'll arrange
Get a ten day trial exchange

Go see Cal
Go see Cal
Go see Cal

Wow - I actually do remember some of the 70's!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 18, 2015 - 09:50pm PT
If you remember Cal - then it's only a matter of time before we start talking about Tom Hatten on KTLA with those awesome B&W cartoons and movies.

Or if we're still on commercials - there were those Pete Ellis Dodge commercials (“Long Beach Freeway, Firestone exit, Southgate”), or "Fred Rated" for all your audio needs and if you clogged your toilet flushing your stash down - you could get it unclogged by "Adee Do".
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Apr 19, 2015 - 07:05am PT
If Hillary doesn't interest you, then I want to remind you about her likely contender, the Republican Jeb Bush.

Back when the Republican Jeb Bush was governor of Florida, he felt that his bible was more important that the rights of his citizens.

When Jeb disagreed with the medical decisions that people were making for their families, Jeb used his bible as justification for trying to take over as the Medical Power of Attorney to control people's lives.

The Republicans claim to stand for "less government" and "freedom" but they use their bible to rob people of their rights and privacy.

Just keep that in mind when it comes time to vote for a Democrat or a Republican.

Democrats = Freedom
Republicans = Shariah
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 19, 2015 - 08:26am PT
At least Troll Weiner is consistent...anyone involved in politics is a criminal. Who then for president, the bread delivery guy?

ding ding ding.. someone is starting to figure it out... there is no real choice. The wealthy interests foist a bunch of acceptable (to them) candidates up for us to vote on... no one they have not approved first has ANY chance of being allowed.


I wouldn't say criminal myself.. just stuck in a corrupt system we the people have allowed to occur. They cannot work for the people before they work for the donor.

There is no choice for president. What we need is to selct our congress based on one thing. The candidates stand on changing the constitution so that our elected representatives have to work for us.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 19, 2015 - 08:30am PT
Candidates are not all exactly the same platform because wealthy interests are not all the same. However the fact remains the candidates must work for their donors or at least not piss them off before they can ever do anything for us.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 19, 2015 - 08:35am PT
Climbtoski, maybe the problem is with us, the electorate.
From Dana Milbank...
after a political rally this week in which Democrats criticized the Obama administration for siding with Republicans on trade, I had a talk about the future of the party with Rep. Alan Grayson, a Florida Democrat who is one of the most ferocious partisans in the House.

It does no good, he told me, for Democrats to “pretend to be Republican” or to “run corporate campaigns and try to pretend that they’re going to govern from the middle.” His rationale: There is no middle. "Essentially there are no undecided voters. Everybody has picked a team. The only question is, do your guys vote or not?” Grayson explained. What matters, he said, is “what side are you on?”

Up until the mid-1980s, the typical American held the view that partisans on the other side operated with good intentions. But that has changed in dramatic fashion, as a study published last year by Stanford and Princeton researchers demonstrates.

It has long been agreed that race is the deepest divide in American society. But that is no longer true, say Shanto Iyengar and Sean Westwood, the academics who led the study. Using a variety of social science methods they document that “the level of partisan animus in the American public exceeds racial hostility.”

Americans now discriminate more on the basis of party than on race, gender or any of the other divides we typically think of — and that discrimination extends beyond politics into personal relationships and non-political behaviors. Americans increasingly live in neighborhoods with like-minded partisans, marry fellow partisans and disapprove of their children marrying mates from the other party, and they are more likely to choose partners based on partisanship than physical or personality attributes.

“Unlike race, gender and other social divides where group-related attitudes and behaviors are constrained by social norms, there are no corresponding pressures to temper disapproval of political opponents,” they conclude. “If anything, the rhetoric and actions of political leaders demonstrate that hostility directed at the opposition is acceptable, even appropriate. Partisans therefore feel free to express animus and engage in discriminatory behavior toward opposing partisans.”

Up to and through the early 1980s, the average American had a neutral view of opposing partisans. But since then, “partisans have come to dislike the opposition and like co-partisans dramatically more,” Westwood told me. Favorable feelings toward partisans on the other side have dropped by 10 percentage points — going from tepid on what social scientists call a “feeling thermometer” to being “clearly in the cold.”

This hyper-partisanship has occurred even though fewer people identify with the actual parties. The vast majority of self-described independents actually lean toward one party or the other, and they are often even more partisan in their views than those who identify themselves with a party.

Also of note is that the partisan polarization occurs even though Americans aren’t all that split on policies or ideology. Their partisanship is more tribal than anything — the result of an ill-informed electorate. “In order to have an understanding of the ideology of your party and the opposing party you have to have a lot of information,” and “that’s something that just doesn’t happen for the majority of the electorate,” said Westwood. “However, most people understand their side is good and the opposing side is bad, so it’s much easier for them to form these emotional opinions of political parties.”

This leads to a grim conclusion: The problem with politics isn’t Washington but the electorate. Members of Congress, most of whom come from safely gerrymandered districts, are behaving in a perfectly rational way when they avoid cooperation with the other party and instead try to build support within their own tribe.

Elected officials and professional partisans then reinforce the tribal tendency in the electorate with overheated rhetoric, perpetual campaigns, negative ads and increasingly partisan media outlets. “The individuals who hold more hostility are then given the green light to hold these more hostile positions,” Westwood explained.

So does he see a way out of this tribal cycle of hatred? “Sadly, no.”

Fixing Washington becomes more complicated if the problems here are also deep in the American electorate.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 19, 2015 - 10:03am PT
Where's Fattrad when we need him...?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 19, 2015 - 10:47am PT
are you all ready for two more years of this shite?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 19, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
"...and that discrimination extends beyond politics into personal relationships and non-political behaviors."


I wonder how many ST'ers have SO's who hold ideologic views from the other side of the aisle?
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Apr 19, 2015 - 12:54pm PT

"Don't let anybody tell you that it's corporations and businesses that create jobs,"

-Hillary Clinton
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 19, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
She's just fine with corporations as long as they keep paying up.

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/04/24/hillary-clinton-runs-white-house-and-row-over-ukrainian-benefactors-trade-322253.html
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Apr 19, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
I expect President Hillary will remove Iran from the terrorist watch list and appoint Bill as ambassador there.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 19, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
I've a fiver on us seeing the first Starbucks open in Pyongyang after Hillary is anointed.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 19, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
Democrats = criminals
Republicans = criminals

Me = saint

That's the human way!

If you just perceived the truth of reality the way that I do then you would realize that my beliefs are true and your beliefs are false. Feel free to fill in the rest as an exercise for the reader. :-)
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 19, 2015 - 03:47pm PT
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/04/why_hillary_cant_be_in_the_moment.html

She has become the Dorian Gray of politics,

She was beaten last time around by a young amateur in the primaries. The Chicago Marxists have now wrested control of the Democrat party from the Clintonites. They aren't going to willingly relinquish the reigns of power.

Bary is siting on a pile of her dirt that will be conveniently exposed once they make their deal on the horse they want to ride.

Her Saudi and Ukrainian billions won't save it for her.
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
Apr 19, 2015 - 04:57pm PT
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
Apr 19, 2015 - 05:12pm PT
At least in America we got to vote on which oligarch's puppet we want to rule us.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 19, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
there's actually an election, correct?

ROTFLMFAO

You really don't get it do you?

Thus why you like millions of others still argue rep ves dem... you've been had.


Tami understands.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 19, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
The only candidates ALLOWED into the race are those who do not have the peoples agenda in mind.. either side.

No one can run for president without the approval by donation of people who want you to get very low wages.. why? because those wages come out of their pockets.

Yer f*#ked until you change the constitution.
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 19, 2015 - 06:09pm PT
Maybe we are just overdue for an "American Spring".

Sure, there will be a decade or two of chaos but after the heads of the Oligarchs have been chopped, the McMansions have been looted and a few million marginal citizens have been killed off - we will more than likely emerge into a new Age of Renaissance.

On the other hand - what will most likely happen is we will just keep griping on Facebook and taking selfies while waiting for the next iApple thingy to keep us busy until Star Wars Version 79 comes out.

Sutpid Americans.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 19, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
No point to a revolution when the people are too stupid to do it the easy way. Oly thing a revolution would do is make things worse.

There is an easy solution. But Werner is correct.

Americans are STUUPID
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 19, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
Ricky...you spelled " stupid " wrong...rj
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 19, 2015 - 06:47pm PT
GeezLouise Herr Braun, you really know how to charm a woman and she gets upset with me for posting gory phtotos and /abˈstro͞os,əbˈstro͞os/ comments.


Even a Canadian woman Tami is smarter than the goofball looniator politard crankloon.



Yessir, why are these men laughing?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 19, 2015 - 06:51pm PT
Because they know Tami...?
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Apr 19, 2015 - 09:24pm PT
Ricky...you spelled " stupid " wrong...rj

You must be new around these parts.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 20, 2015 - 07:11am PT
Why so much hate?

Cuz' Monroe got a mule.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 20, 2015 - 09:43am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
Apr 20, 2015 - 09:50am PT
Check my new tat
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 09:54am PT
Now you can get a matched set!



Or for TGT....

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 20, 2015 - 09:56am PT
PotatoHead, I'm a registered Green and voted for Jill Stein four years ago. I also watched Democracy Now during the last presidential debate, where Jill was allowed to answer the same questions the other candidates were given (Jill was not allowed to enter the debate).

That said, on some now frozen thread, somebody-or-other posted a great series about multi-party systems vs. two-party systems, the sociology and mathematics of it all. Apparently, a multi-party system will eventually whittle down to two.

Do you vote your conscious, or the better of two evils? It's a tough question.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 10:08am PT
"Do you vote your conscious, or the better of two evils? It's a tough question."

Well, there's ideal, then there's real.

If a Repub makes it into office, it's almost assured that they will advocate war or military action somewhere, and most of social issues that matter to me will be undermined or receive short-shrift, at best.

Both Parties are certainly beholding to Big $$...not much difference there...but at least with a Dem leadership, there's a better likelihood of avoiding war, and seeing the advancement (or the repair to what the Repubs have done) of important issues that affect the lives of my family, friends, and myself.
Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
Apr 20, 2015 - 10:13am PT
I'm a stupid green guy too. I'm not happy about Hillary but I'll vote for her. Another Bush would be a travesty.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 10:19am PT
That may very well be, DMT, but I'd still rather have a Dem leadership if it happens.

And I'd bet you that 5 bucks right back that if you vote in that election, your vote will go to Hillary, and not Jeb.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 20, 2015 - 10:38am PT
In California, the margin of victory for a Dem is so great you can usually vote your conscious. It's for this reason that I normally vote Green.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 20, 2015 - 10:55am PT
It's NOT A F-ing Beauty Contest.
This is serious business, who controls this country is at Stake!

Why are people so stupid.

It's all about majorities, you have to have a majority in Congress with a President and a Supreme Court, or you get what we have now, a broken Government that works to help the rich and screw the middles class.

We have had Republican MAJORITY since Reagan (except for a couple short time periods), that's why some people say the politicians are the same, because it has been all the same since Reagan let the money talk and gain control.

Voting third party just means you are completely clueless when it come to politics, it's just a waste of a vote in our system, yes the system sucks, get over it.

Politics works by giving the majority to a party, and their controlling influences control the country. Give the majority to the Dems, and then things change, the people put pressure on their representatives to make that change, they won't do it w/o the pressure, like Roosevelt said, "you have to make me do it."

If we gave the majority to the people's party, they would take the money out and repeal the big money takeover.

There is only one party that can do that, the Dems.

Sure they aren't perfect, but if they had a majority they would repeal citizen's United, pull out our troops, save our infrastructure, and create more jobs, etc.

The Libertarians are all about big money in politics and persevering their big money influences.
The libertarians and Republicans have no interest in fixing anything, it's all about servicing their donors with special favors. They haven't created jobs, they haven't help fix the economy, they haven't done anything except whine about Obama, and now Hillary.
That is their only game, build up hate and anger for the Dem President and run on that hate, like it has some power to make you a great Pres., fools

When you give money to the Dems, it's to do the people's work, raise taxes, invest in education.
The Republicans are the party of money, so you give them money and they give you your tax cut, or stop a vote on some regulation, it's all quid pro. They want more secret surveillance, more wars, more military spending, more debt and less anything for the middle class, less jobs, less wages. We haven't raised taxes to even the Reagan levels, that is 100% the reason we have $18 trillion in debt, and they have no desire to pay it down a single cent.

You have to vote (D) for every possible Gov. job, you have to have a majority or it doesn't mean squat.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 20, 2015 - 10:59am PT
It's NOT A F-ing Beauty Contest.
This is serious business, who controls this country is at Stake!

Why are people so stupid.

what are you so worried about aren't you retired?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 20, 2015 - 11:03am PT
I'm not retired, I'm 56, and now 190 lbs

I have what you call empathy, I care about other humans and don't want to see them suffer.
And millions are in dire suffering circumstance due the policies of the Republicans

and I care about the environment, and the planet, and all the little critters and plants

and I saw what Reagan did, and what the Bush's did
They will lie about everything,

Bush had lyme disease and was out of service for several months and the media didn't even report it, it's like a mafia organization
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 20, 2015 - 11:05am PT
You're right. These elections are serious business. Who runs the country is serious business.

But these online political discussions... they don't mean squat. Some people think they do.

Flip Flop

climber
salad bowl, california
Apr 20, 2015 - 11:10am PT
DMT,
We haven't entered any new wars in the last 8 years.
Civil Wars in Libya, Egypt and Syria are ancient struggles and our involvement has been predominately political and through the United Nations.
There is no sound political theory that advocates a return to American Isolationism. It is our onus and responsibility as the strongest and safest nation to continue political engagement in the world.
So, before you start arguing ask yourself how many US soldiers died in these other conflicts? Is it reasonable to blame the current democratic administration for the thrutchings in the Arab world? Has the Democratic Administration unnecessarily embroiled us in any major conflicts since 2004?
Conversely, regarding the Ukraine, did the Republican posturing give you concerns about their attitude toward the Cold War? Do their policies regarding Declaring War against Iran support your assertion about the policies of the current Democratic Administration that includes damn Hillary?
I'm not just humping Obama's leg. Fracking sucks, the environment deserves better, but it's ostensibly an energy security issue because we can't get off the cheap Arabian oil. Droning in Pakistan is shitty but the reality is that Pakistan has Nuclear Weapons and we're not really interested in losing our limited control of the Pakistani Military.
I hope that your retort with be informative and philosophical as I value your opinion.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 20, 2015 - 11:19am PT
and I saw what Reagan did, and what the Bush's did
They will lie about everything,

and democrats don't lie..
geezer craig how come you never mention tick rock in ur guide book?


I wonder how Hillary is going to take care of that Syrian dictator?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 20, 2015 - 11:28am PT
For some time many of us have wondered just who is Jack Schitt? We find ourselves at a loss when someone says, "You don't know Jack Schitt!" Well, thanks to my genealogy efforts, you can now respond in an intellectual way.
Jack Schitt is the only son of Awe Schitt.

Awe Schitt, the fertilizer magnate, married Miss O. Needeep They had one son, Jack.

In turn, Jack Schitt married Noe Schitt. The deeply religious couple produced six children: Holie Schitt, Giva Schitt, Fulla Schitt, Bull Schitt, and the twins Deap Schitt and Dip Schitt.

Against her parents' objections, Deap Schitt married her cousin Dumb Schitt, a high school dropout. After being married 15 years, Jack and Noe Schitt divorced.

Noe Schitt later married Ted Sherlock, and, because her kids were living with them, she wanted to keep her previous name. She was then known as Noe Schitt Sherlock.

Meanwhile, Dip Schitt married Loda Schitt, and they produced a son with a rather nervous disposition named Chick N. Schitt.

Two of the other six children, Fulla Schitt and Giva Schitt, were inseparable throughout childhood and subsequently married the Happens brothers in a dual ceremony.

The wedding announcement in the newspaper announced the Schitt-Happens nuptials.

The Schitt-Happens children were Dawg, Byrd, and Hoarse. Bull Schitt, the prodigal son, left home to tour the world. He recently returned from Italy with his new Italian bride, Pisa Schitt.

Now when someone says, "You don't know Jack Schitt," you can correct them.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Apr 20, 2015 - 11:38am PT
Craig Fry, why are you so stupid (but calling other people stupid)? Who runs this country has nothing to do with elections. Wake up moron, democrat or republican, there is no difference anymore. Its all Hollywood to keep you distracted from the real issues, and you've bought it hook, line, and sinker. What are you, a little sock puppet? Seems like it sometimes.
Cragar

climber
MSLA - MT
Apr 20, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
The arrogance of this type of behavior:

calling other people stupid

is dumbfounding and completely lost on me.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 12:09pm PT
"...democrat or republican, there is no difference anymore. "

Disagree. There's a difference, when it comes to social or environmental issues (and to some degree, military/defense).
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Apr 20, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
There is a difference to the degree that wealthy interests are not all the same. But you deceive yourself if you think any of them work for the people when it goes against the interest of their donors.

We have to force the congress and any president to work first for the people... to do that requires that ONLY the people elect them and give them their jobs.

That is far from the current situation.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 20, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
"...democrat or republican, there is no difference anymore. "


Studly, do the words "Sotomayor" or "Kagan" have any special meaning to you?


If McCain or Romney were elected in place of Obama, what names might we be reading here instead?


PS. Folks, please keep the name calling out of this thread--it might last if we keep it civil.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 20, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
Takes one to know one.
You can't make this sh#t up!

LOL


http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/18/hookers-for-hillary-bunny-ranch-employees-endorse-hillary-clinton/

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
"But you deceive yourself if you think any of them work for the people when it goes against the interest of their donors."

That's pretty much speaking the politically obvious, given that this is Politics 101. For practical purposes, though, do you think there was a chance in holy hell that the GOP would take on healthcare reform...or push an equality agenda for women and gays?

Not a feckin' chance. These issues make a daily difference to friends & family, no matter where the campaign $$ came from.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 20, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
That's funny, TGT. Especially in light of the increase in johns when the Republicans come to town.

Brothel Beckons To GOP: Hold Your Convention In Las Vegas

Strippers look to GOP to 'make it rain'
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
Man, TGT is really pulling out all the stops in his Anti-Hillary bullsh#t. He must be worried...

"Takes one to know one. "

Stay classy, TGT!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 20, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
I didn't call anyone stupid, but I get called that all the time.
I said you have to be stupid to think certain things. Stupid things.

Yes, the more you know about politics, the more people that know Nothing (they don't want to know) about politics will call you stupid, since my knowledge of politics is way over their head, that's what happens when you get mired in the right wing media driven political knowledge base, you call them all the same, and everyone is stupid who disagrees.

These are some of the issues that the Republicans and Democrats are diametrically opposed;
Abortion
Gay Rights
education spending
campaign finance
fixing the economy
raising wages
making health care affordable
creating jobs
keeping jobs in the US
wealth inequality
protecting our environment
protecting our rights as people
equal rights
and 1000 more issues, all protecting humans as opposed to protecting the rich and their interests

The Republican are opposed to anything liberal, or anything that puts the slightest inconvenience from the rich getting richer.
You are not very aware of what's going if you call the parties 'all the same', since they are in fact diametrically opposed. They fight tooth and nail to deny us affordable healthcare, or raising wages, raising the taxes on the rich, exposing the donations to the Big Dark money that flows into the Republican coffers.
How is that the SAME???
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
+1 for the above

There is a difference between parties in those regards.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Apr 20, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
Its the same because its all an illusion. In the history of our nation, our parties and represenatives used to work togather for the people and of the people. But no longer. Now they take a stance based on what their "contributors" tell them to do, and its all orchestrated to keep us separated and apart, agreeing on nothing. Divide and conquer, remember that saying? Its happened. Goldman Sachs picks the presidential candidates, and tells us we have a choice between them. You really think you have a choice? or if you do that it makes any difference in the final outcome?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 20, 2015 - 01:18pm PT
climbski2

There is a difference to the degree that wealthy interests are not all the same. But you deceive yourself if you think any of them work for the people when it goes against the interest of their donors.

We have to force the congress and any president to work first for the people... to do that requires that ONLY the people elect them and give them their jobs.

Warren Buffet wants his taxes to go up, so when he donates to Hillary, it's not for him to get a tax break, it's for Hillary to uplift everyone, "Why be rich in a poor Country".

You won't be able to force the Repubs to do the people's work, they have been sold and paid for already, they work only for the rich.
They just repealed the inheritance tax which will cost us $650 billion in 10 years and affect 0.01% of the population.

But the Dems!
Look at how far they came with Gay rights, with birth Control, with abortion, with job security, the people demanded it, and forced the only party that will work for the people to do Something.
The Repubs are fighting these issues still today
----
Studly
I'm skeptical of your conspiracy theory about how our Government works.
any links that spell it out?

Divide and Conquer, yes, the Repubs have used that agenda well, Goebbels would be proud.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 20, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
We are a polarized nation because the right wing media has used lies, misinformation, out of context quotes and outright propaganda to attempt to destroy the Democrats, so hence we have one side of the aisle believing lies about how evil the Democrats are.

and then we have the liberals that can see what the Repubs are doing, and they have fought back with little headway because of the money disparity.

and hence we have a divided country.
The Repubs have nothing to run on, they don't have any achievement they can point to, not a single policy has been good for the country, so they use the only thing left, destroy the opposition and then say they aren't them, so you can vote for the Repub, or don't vote at all, which equals a vote for them.

The side that uses lies to divide it's population can be considered evil, at least we considered them evil when other country's did it.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Apr 20, 2015 - 01:54pm PT
You can lead a horse to water....
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 20, 2015 - 01:59pm PT
PS. Folks, please keep the name calling out of this thread--it might last if we keep it civil.

lol this thread will be frozen in no time!!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
Studly, I'm with you as far as economics & moneyed influence is concerned- both Parties are effectively driven in the same manner.

But in terms of policy enactments...do you really think the GOP would have taken on Healthcare Reform? As weak as Obama's efforts were (and in the pocket of the insurance industry), there are millions more people who actually have coverage now, and probably have a policy that holds more water than it used to. There's NO CHANCE a GOP POTUS would have touched that problem with a ten foot pole.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 20, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
Goldman Sachs picks the presidential candidates, and tells us we have a choice between them. You really think you have a choice? or if you do that it makes any difference in the final outcome?


Yes, we have Citizens United. And yes, the ACA is a watered-down version of what we really need.

But, I can go out and get health insurance now, whereas without the ACA, I would be SOL.

Do you think a Republican president would have passed any health law that that states insurance companies may not deny converge on the basis of per-existing conditions? Be honest now...

The way I see it, it's good cop/bad cop. The Dems give bits to the people, whereas the GOP doesn't even give table scraps.

Edit: apogee, we're on the same page!
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Apr 20, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
I have to say one thing and one thing only, as for several years (I think) I have stayed out of political threads.

But that EdwardT sure knows his shitt.
(Apr 20, 2015 - 11:28am PT)
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Apr 20, 2015 - 04:09pm PT
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Apr 20, 2015 - 04:32pm PT
George Washington University Constitutional Law Professor, Jonathan Turley, wisely noted, "Anyone who believes there are two parties in Washington DC is a fool."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 04:34pm PT
"...do you really think the GOP would have taken on Healthcare Reform? "
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 20, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
lol this thread will be frozen in no time.

Seems like it was frozen right from the start. Evolution is just really slow that way. Praise humans! :-)

Who's going to win this election? Will it be the forces of good or the forces of evil?! Stay tuned for the next exciting installment!

Meanwhile ..
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 20, 2015 - 05:15pm PT
The brownshirts are here already.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/417155/wisconsins-shame-i-thought-it-was-home-invasion-david-french
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
I remember a thread about Paul Ryan's mountaineering fabulism which put into question his character and made him unfit to be vice president.
Don't hear those same folks too worried about Hillary's fabulism of who she was named after, of taking fire on a tarmac after the breakup of Yugoslavia, and in trying to talk "black" in front of a group of African-Americans.

Hillary is America's ex-wife, is transparantly phony and is not an honest person. America is tired of Bushes and Clintons.

The financial unpleasantness of 2008 was a failure in ethics across political and socio-economic lines...basically the whole popular culture wanting something for nothing until the bubbles burst. Hillary is a poster child of money and power lust.

Almost all of the democrat candidates are as old as the hills. Hillary, Warren, Biden and Sanders are dinosaurs.

Jim Webb is also an aging boomer, but he has a compelling personal history and appears to be ethical.

If you want cool factor, which is huge in today's America, Martin O'Malley has executive experience and has a young family. Check out the photo...this guy plays guitar and looks like "The Boss".

No matter who is elected, the good and decent common people who vote for either party, will help America to stumble along, her tottering goodness and wisdom still holding off the looming idiocracy, despite what happens in DC.

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 20, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
If Hillary promises to see to it that the new Needles Guidebook is going to publish... I'll vote for her.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 20, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
Scott Walker is a true American heroe...He fought the unions and made Wisconsin a right to work state where citizens will now have a chance to work for lower wages...He's got your back like the rest of the regressive conservatives...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 20, 2015 - 07:26pm PT
Maybe...?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 07:46pm PT

Go Dodger Blue!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 20, 2015 - 08:45pm PT
Hillary is a poster child of money and power lust.

Really? That's a truly delusional statement given we had eight years of neocons who thought they were white male gods.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 08:58pm PT
TW,
I don't idolize politicians,
and I did mention 2 democrats I believe would be better than Hillary.
I doubt many here are more liberal on social policy than me.
I just think the Washington DC bubble is out of touch with average working people.
DC lifers get more corrupt by the year.

Crankster,
I am giving my honest opinion, and try to debate honestly.
Sometimes with what is humorous to me.
I admit I can be disrespectful of politicians,
but I try to be respectful of fellow climbers on this forum.
Cheers
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 20, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
All good, Larry.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 20, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
"A vote for Hillary simply for being a democrat is mindless partisan bullsh#t."

No-one here thinks it's that simple, DMT, and you know this.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 20, 2015 - 11:12pm PT
6 years plus for wonder boy -- that's nearly 2 terms, and yet the blame is still BUSH ROFLMAO!!!

The sh#t storm W's crew created will be a lingering gamut through which at least four or five more presidents of either party will have to run even if each goes for two terms.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Apr 21, 2015 - 02:51am PT
+1 ^^^
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 21, 2015 - 05:31am PT
“Clinton Cash: The Untold Story of How and Why Foreign Governments and Businesses Helped Make Bill and Hillary Rich,” by Peter Schweizer — a 186-page investigation of donations made to the Clinton Foundation by foreign entities — is proving the most anticipated and feared book of a presidential cycle still in its infancy....

His reporting largely focuses on payments made to Mr. Clinton for speeches, which increased while his wife served as secretary of state, writing that “of the 13 Clinton speeches that fetched $500,000 or more, only two occurred during the years his wife was not secretary of state.”

In 2011, Mr. Clinton made $13.3 million in speaking fees for 54 speeches, the majority of which were made overseas, the author writes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/politics/new-book-clinton-cash-questions-foreign-donations-to-foundation.html?_r=0
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 21, 2015 - 07:21am PT
10 Highest-Paid Public Speakers In the World

#2 Ronald Reagan, $1 million: Back in 1989, the Fujisankei Communications Group in Japan paid this former president a cool million per speech to come to the country and tour. Reagan gave two speeches while there as well as speaking at media outlets and giving interviews. Still, Reagan didn’t make out too shabby with $2 million (in 1989 dollars) under his belt for sharing his business and presidential experience with the company desperately in need of public relations help. The Reagans created a national sensation in Japan, boosting the company’s profile.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 21, 2015 - 08:07am PT
The sh#t storm W's crew created will be a lingering gamut through which at least four or five more presidents of either party will have to run even if each goes for two terms.

A couple of years ago, most folks on the Taco were predicting the death of the Rebumblecon party. I well remember HFCS loudly proclaiming that Americans had tumbled to the failures of the Rebumblecon platform and that the party was effectively dead and would be increasingly marginalized in coming elections.

But they sure appear to be back in full force at this moment.

And that's how it goes in the cyclical morass of the two-party system.

And most of you seem to think that the Demoncrats "better" represent your views.

Do you like the Patriot act (a Bush creation)?

Do you like Guantanamo (a Bush creation)?

Do you like vast, and I mean VAST national debt (supposedly a Bush creation, but certainly significantly increased by Obama)?

Do you like the "federal" reserve and believe that it has anything to do with a representative federal government and that it has one iota of your best interests at heart?

The litany goes on and on....

Do you really think that Hillary is anything like you, sees the world anything like you do, cares in this slightest about your interests, or has the slightest desire to make the world a better place?

Do you really think that Hillary is going to do a single thing to "change" the entrenched corruption and utter lack of true representation there is in Washington at this point?

I'm not saying that ANY Rebumblecon candidate is going to make anything right either. I'm just wondering what the frothing about the wonders of Hillary can be based upon. It strikes me that the more of a "true believer" a particular contributor to this thread is, the more threatened and insecure they really feel about the very legitimate questions and concerns "the other side" has about her integrity and motivations.

The email scandal, for one, is not just some "invention of the right wing." She invented that one all by herself, and the more she talks, the deeper of a hole she digs for herself. People that know technology realize how transparent her lies are.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 21, 2015 - 08:26am PT
But they sure appear to be back in full force at this moment.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 21, 2015 - 08:28am PT
Nice post, Madbolter.

More and more, Hillary seems to demonstrate that the rules/laws of the land don't really apply to her.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 21, 2015 - 08:42am PT
Do you like vast, and I mean VAST national debt (supposedly a Bush creation, but certainly significantly increased by Obama)?
Love this one. It real drives the right wing fringe and libertarians wild. I personally don't find it particularly problematic, though electing republicans is always a bad idea from this perspective as they have an inbred affinity for living on the federal dole as both states and corporations.

Do you like the "federal" reserve and believe that it has anything to do with a representative federal government and that it has one iota of your best interests at heart?
Another one that drives the right wing fringe and libertarians wild - gotta love it on that basis alone.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 21, 2015 - 09:53am PT
I heard Lois Lerner is handling it.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 21, 2015 - 10:08am PT
Madbolter.... good job of summing up things....+1

C'mon, have you really lost any sleep over her e-mails??? Why???

I don't loose sleep over any of this. But Crankster, even you, must wonder just what Putin thinks when he is reading all of Her emails... in real time.


Edit for dirt... the eMails also went to these people .... sort of like a Blind CC .....

Angela Merkel, Kim Jong-il's, Ali Khamenei, Narendra Modi, Shinzō Abe, General Buhari, Bashar al-Assad, Lee Wan-koo …. And more.

dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2015 - 10:12am PT
You guys greatly overestimate Putin.

Anyway, early on, W looked into his eyes and could tell he was an ok dude.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 21, 2015 - 10:21am PT
No one cares what is in her e-mails, they were all sent to somebody, so nothing has been destroyed.

Do you delete e-mails?
everyone does, why shouldn't Hillary?
Why?? because the Repubs want to make a smearing scandal out of the issue,
it's evil.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 21, 2015 - 10:31am PT
If you don't like Hillary, and she is the Democratic candidate, what are you going to do???

Vote for the independent?
Vote for the Green party?
Vote for the Fascists?
Not vote at all?

You could, and let the Repubs win.

or you can play the game that has been set up as part of our system of elections. The Game sucks I know, get over it, you have to play the game or shut the hell up, because the game is set in stone, and there are only 2 sides.

The game means YOU HAVE TO VOTE, Everyone has to Vote, and You Have to Vote for your party up and down the ticket if you want your party to have a majority.
No majority = no action by your party, they have to sit it out while the majority kicks their ass.

So it doesn't matter what you think of Hillary, you can hate everything about her, but if you want to fix this country, then you have to vote for her for the good of the future of this nation
The President isn't king, he/she is just a tool of the Party, nothing the President wants will get done without a Congress that agrees with doing what the President wants.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 21, 2015 - 10:42am PT
Bush ....seems to demonstrate that the rules/laws of the land don't really apply to...him.


Remember those kinds of statements? I do.

Goes to show you...it's always the other guy's Senator or POTUS that's the problem. Otherwise, it's all good.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 21, 2015 - 11:01am PT
Why are you so hung up on Putin???...

i'm more hung on the pussy riot!
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 21, 2015 - 11:06am PT
And the frothing continues...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 21, 2015 - 11:14am PT
What do you think of the word 'sheeple', Locker?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 21, 2015 - 11:29am PT
That's what I thought you thought.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 21, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
When Romney ran, how he earned his millions was a hot topic, but somehow Hillebeast and Bill's millions and where it came from are not to be discussed.

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 21, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
TGT's cartoon postings are kinda like a weather indicator for the GOP....the more he posts, the more you can be assured that they are scared silly about their own prospects.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2015 - 02:13pm PT
Romneycare is good when the white guy does it.

Romneycare is bad when the black guy does it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 21, 2015 - 02:27pm PT
She should have known better - not like it was an unknown issue or without consequences for doing it. I have some sympathy here for politicians in general with regard to email as the rules really remove a lot of interpersonal aspects of 'governing' from government. It's similar to the situation where being an ambassador before the telegraph and radio was an interesting and prestigious post. Now ambassadors have no power and are micromanaged from afar on a hourly basis.

Bush White House email controversy surfaced in 2007 during the controversy involving the dismissal of eight U.S. attorneys. Congressional requests for administration documents while investigating the dismissals of the U.S. attorneys required the Bush administration to reveal that not all internal White House emails were available, because they were sent via a non-government domain hosted on an email server not controlled by the federal government. Conducting governmental business in this manner is a possible violation of the Presidential Records Act of 1978, and the Hatch Act.[1] Over 5 million emails may have been lost or deleted.[2][3] Greg Palast claims to have come up with 500 of the Karl Rove lost emails, leading to damaging allegations.[4] In 2009, it was announced that as many as 22 million emails may have been deleted.[5]

The administration officials had been using a private Internet domain, called gwb43.com, owned by and hosted on an email server run by the Republican National Committee,[6] for various communications of unknown content or purpose. The domain name is an acronym standing for "George W. Bush, 43rd" President of the United States. The server came public when it was discovered that J. Scott Jennings, the White House's deputy director of political affairs, was using a gwb43.com email address to discuss the firing of the U.S. attorney for Arkansas.[7] Communications by federal employees were also found on georgewbush.com (registered to "Bush-Cheney '04, Inc."[8]) and rnchq.org (registered to "Republican National Committee"[9]), but, unlike these two servers, gwb43.com has no Web server connected to it — it is used only for email.[10]

The "gwb43.com" domain name was publicized by Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW), who sent a letter to Oversight and Government Reform Committee committee chairman Henry A. Waxman requesting an investigation.[11] Waxman sent a formal warning to the RNC, advising them to retain copies of all emails sent by White House employees. According to Waxman, "in some instances, White House officials were using nongovernmental accounts specifically to avoid creating a record of the communications."[12] The Republican National Committee claims to have erased the emails, supposedly making them unavailable for Congressional investigators.[13]

On April 12, 2007, White House spokesman Scott Stanzel stated that White House staffers were told to use RNC accounts to "err on the side of avoiding violations of the Hatch Act, but they should also retain that information so it can be reviewed for the Presidential Records Act," and that "some employees ... have communicated about official business on those political email accounts."[14] Stanzel also said that even though RNC policy since 2004 has been to retain all emails of White House staff with RNC accounts, the staffers had the ability to delete the email themselves.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 21, 2015 - 03:02pm PT
She said, "I installed my own private email server for the convenience of not having to carry around multiple devices."

In fact, the number of devices you carry around has no relation to how many email accounts you have or where they are hosted. And she then proceeded to carry around multiple devices anyway.

She said, "The email server was entirely secure and guarded by secret service agents around the clock."

In fact, that's not a "convenient" approach to having a private email account. In fact, getting her own free private email account from Gmail or Yahoo would have been OBVIOUSLY far more convenient! And then she could have just used the State Department email account that had already been made available to her for her business communications.

In fact, the security that matters is not something that can be guarded by the secret service. Physical server security is one small piece of overall security, and the more worrisome security issues are not physical. Because Hillary did nothing to allow oversight of her installation, it is impossible to know if she or her installer did the job right, so it is impossible to know if basic SSL/TLS was set up correctly or if her machine was hacked.

She said, "The server was never breached."

In fact, she has exactly zero idea whether that is true or not, and, more importantly, the American people have zero idea. Moreover, because of how she handled the whole thing, it is now impossible to ever know. The vast majority of hackers are not going to wave a sign around your site or email server telling you, "Ha, ha, ha! Got you!"

Was Hillary running any intrusion-detection system on her server? Which one? How was it configured? Ooops, sorry, no can tell. It was all intentionally wiped to explicitly disallow the American people to even ask such questions.

And the security of State Department communications, particularly from the Secretary of State, DOES matter.

The site: https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/ can be used to test SSL/TLS setup, and it is scary how many government sites are incorrectly set up to avoid even basic, well-known hacks. So it is actually doubtful that Hillary set up her email server correctly. I can speak from experience to say that it is not trivial to get it right and earn an A+ from ssllabs.

At this very moment, if you test irs.gov or www.irs.gov, you will see that the (extremely important) site cannot even be rated by ssllabs AT ALL because they have deployed an invalid certificate!

Three weeks ago, www.healthcare.gov (a fairly significant site with some fairly significant personal records) was at a C- and was vulnerable to some really basic hacks. As of today, they appear to have fixed things and are at an A+ (where they should have ALWAYS been from the inception). So, was healthcare.gov hacked during the months they were at a C-?

The BASIC failings of many government websites are EPIC. And we are to believe that Hillary got it right? Too bad she ensured that we can never check.

She says, "I and my team carefully examined the emails to determine which were State Department related and which were private."

In fact, a very simplistic keyword search algorithm was developed and run in one pass, searching for about 100 key words. Anything that wasn't "flagged" as having these keywords was called "private" and not handed over. However, repeated emails she sent to State Department people but did not turn over as State Department related have surfaced. These were missed by the simplistic algorithm because the keywords were misspelled in her actual emails.

And there are almost countless words that would be "key" to State business that the algorithm didn't even attempt to find. There was no systematic human eyes-on actual review of the emails. So, the American people are being told, unilaterally: "The determination of what was relevant to serving you was made 100% entirely by me, and then any possible oversight of that determination was wiped by me. And the errors we are already discovering in my process are 'unfortunate' but cannot be helped, because, well, I wiped all possibility of my process ever being vetted or double-checked."

She said (via repeated memos to her staff): "USE the supplied State Department email system. This ensures that a record is kept of your State Department communications. Use a private email system for your private emails so that you are not mixing State Department business with your private communications."

In fact, this is excellent policy. The Secretary of State SHOULD have followed her own mandate, and she did not for the obvious reason that she had NO interest in having ANYBODY... EVER... able to exercise the same oversight over her that she insisted be exercised over her staff.

She said, "It would be inappropriate to hand over the private server to a forensic team."

In fact, it is a VERY reasonable request to see if anything can be recovered from her irresponsible and unilateral actions. So FAR from "inappropriate," such a request would immediately be complied with by anybody who wasn't intentionally hiding relevant STATE business from the State itself! If she had ONLY private emails on that server, THEN the request would indeed be inappropriate. But SHE mixed State business with private communications, and so it is completely appropriate to see if anything STATE-related can be gotten from her wipe-job.

She said, "I did nothing illegal."

In fact, it's at least a gray area, and in fact, she violated her own well-conceived mandate to her staff. It's at least a gray area because her particular handling of the matter has indeed violated the clear spirit, as well as the obvious interpretation of the letter, of the freedom of information act. By unilaterally deciding what to release and what not to release, and then immediately wiping the entire server prior to review and any additional information requests, she took it entirely upon herself to decide what the American people could EVER review about her decisions and communications while she occupied arguably the second most powerful position in our government.

Most of you will not care about this. That's sad. If you have given up caring to have a government that is actually accountable to US and transparent in principle, then you really have punted at the most fundamental level.

We shrug and say, "All politicians are liars and cheats." But Hillary has in one fell swoop revealed that she is willing to go to ANY ridiculous lengths to not be held accountable. Obama claimed that he would give us the most transparent presidency we had seen in a long time. He did not. With Hillary, we can count on more of the same lack of transparency and lack of accountability. SHE, unlike Obama, wears it on her sleeve.

It is obvious to any reasonable mind that Hillary set up her own email system to circumvent oversight. She then further avoided oversight by unilaterally deciding what information to release and what to no release. She then further avoided oversight by not just deleting her emails but WIPING the entire server on which they had been stored.

Somebody upthread asked, "Have you ever deleted emails?"

That is a ridiculous question as a corollary to what Hillary did. The question would better be cast as: "Have you ever set up your own email server, run it for many years, collected tens of thousands of both public and private emails, and then (as soon as people started asking questions about it) intentionally WIPED the entire thing, including tens of thousands (ALL) of your private emails?"

I would venture to guess that not one single person on the entire Taco stand could answer "yes" to THAT question. Indeed, when faced with that sort of question, a reasonable person asks: "WHY in the world would you ever do such a thing? You collect tens of thousands of private communications spanning years and then suddenly just WIPE them ALL? Why?"

Transparency and honesty still matter, people, even if we are so jaded that we think we can't get it from our leaders anymore. But even if you have dropped the bar that low, is the bar really so low now that we elect as PRESIDENT a person who literally laughs up her sleeve at how she really got one over on all of us?

Make no mistake: I hate both parties. I'm no Rebumblecon. I even voted for Obama the first time. I could be persuaded to vote for a Demoncrat this go-round. But I would vote for virtually any warm body (except for the likes of Palin) opposing Hillary. Hillary wears her corruption on her sleeve and just expects Americans to be so jaded or stupid that they don't care. I do care, and I find her disgusting in the extreme. The email thing is just the latest example of her disdain for us.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 21, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
Does that mean you voted for Rmoney the second time?

Seriously?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 21, 2015 - 03:23pm PT
Madbolter.... you are on fire today.


And to app.... I to voted for the president the first time around, I had hi hopes that some things would change for the better... they didn't.... and yes Mitt got the nod the second time around.

I for one can't wait for her to get interviewed.... and speak off of the top of her head about some real issues, more than unequal pay....
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 21, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
The only GOP candidate who might have a chance of matching her will be Jebster. She'll eat the rest of them with ketchup.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 21, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
Does that mean you voted for Rmoney the second time?

No, I voted the Peace and Freedom party that time. Bwahahahah!

Seriously, though, no, I didn't vote for Rmoney. At some point the choices are so disgusting that I'll throw a vote away (yes, even knowing the possible implications) than to vote "the lesser of the evils." Sadly, sometimes there IS no "lesser". Give me SOMETHING to work with, you worthless parties!

"Let's see.... Satan or the Anti-Christ? Hmmm.... What to do? WHAT to do?"

dirtbag

climber
Apr 21, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
Jen/Rubio v. Hillary/?
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 21, 2015 - 04:52pm PT
The only GOP candidate who might have a chance of matching her will be Jebster. She'll eat the rest of them with ketchup.

Riiight.

Like the way she devoured all comers in '08.

Hillary is clearly the favorite to win the 2016 Presidential race.

Was she any less of a favorite back in April '07?

I'm just sayin.

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 21, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
Mooooo
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Apr 21, 2015 - 04:58pm PT
Hi - I'm Phillip Mamouf-Wifarts.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 21, 2015 - 05:11pm PT
"Just because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be 'constitutional' does not make it so."
-Rand Paul

Last count it was actually five. As to the 'people' part I doubt there is a quorum.

After Hillary is elected and one or two of the benchsitters pass out of existence, will she nominate Rand?




Apparently benchsitters is not a word. It gets the redline treatment, as does redline. May be in a loop here. Don't mess with Google




http://benchsitter.wordpress.com/
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 21, 2015 - 05:41pm PT
Last count it was actually five

It only takes a couple, sometimes one, to make the decision. That is what he was saying.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 21, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
^That's not what he said, are you his spokesman? If he needs you then he shouldn't be running for president.

And it most always takes nine not one or two, except for the rare occasions where one disqualifies himself/herself or is sick etc.



TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 21, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
She really cares about the little people!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 21, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
Hillary must be realllllyyy making you shiver in yer boots, TGT.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 21, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
^Certainly immoral behaviour is relevant, no matter how long in the past it occurred.

However, there is not one bit of evidence offered here.

So,

... over one half of the current Supreme Court have shoplifted pornographic magazines and sodomized young children with the barrels of the pistols they carry.

Sorry I don't have time to look up a funny cartoon.
couchmaster

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 22, 2015 - 03:05pm PT


OK, just a heads up. TOMORROW THE READY FOR HILLARY STORE CLOSES FOREVER!!!!!!1111 That's right. ForeEvar! I figured that Russ would want to know so that he can buy some of this sure to be collector swag. They have the "Ready For Hillary" fleece hats for $8.00! Woot! Jim, they not only don't have your size dog collar I'm sorry to say, but they sold out of them. Dog leashes as well although for now they have cat collars still in stock. Perhaps they may be open in local SF S&M stores in the future, but for now: gone!

http://www.readyforhillary.com/store?ms=E.20150422.D.MAIN_STORE_MERCH&utm_medium=em&utm_source=e.20150422.d&utm_campaign=20150422_E_main_store_merch

Ah you say, but she doesn't need my $8.00 when some Saudi Sheik may give her $6.7 million or so for a Secretary of State favor like they have been trading for in the past, well, she's not the Sec of State any more in case you missed that, so your $8.00 WILL MATTER.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 22, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
crankster, look here:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2610376&msg=2611892#msg2611892

Very far from the folks you mention for PotatoHead.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 22, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
Well, with those new toys, we won't be seeing Locker for quite awhile.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 22, 2015 - 06:33pm PT
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Apr 22, 2015 - 07:40pm PT
Well worth watching:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 22, 2015 - 08:02pm PT
Fauxahontas?

LOL!
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 22, 2015 - 08:03pm PT
Admit it, TGT....you guys got nuthin'.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 23, 2015 - 07:22am PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=2

Now the NYT is on to her.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 23, 2015 - 07:38am PT
Any criminal puppet will do.... "What difference does it make"?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 09:34am PT
So, Hillary is the victim of relentless, right wing attacks?

Well, let's say that you were in her shoes. You've endured MANY years of scandal, and you know that you can't open your mouth without some right wing pundit attacking you.

You become SecState and survey the lay of the land regarding communications. You are not ignorant and incompetent, because you are fully aware of the raised eyebrows and even suspicion engendered by others (including in the GOP) who have gone outside of official email systems; and you even send out an official memo to your tens of thousands of staff telling them to "keep it official" and USE the supplied State email system.

You know that you are dogged by the right wing, and HERE is an area where you can EASILY rise above suspicion and give those jerks one less thing to be suspicious about. HERE is an area in which you can EASILY avoid even the "appearance of evil" in the sight of the American people.

What do you do? Do you do the EASY and obviously most convenient thing, the thing you told your tens of thousands of staff to do, the thing that would be the OBVIOUSLY transparent thing to do?

Uhh... no.

In the face of this (mini-violin playing in the background) relentless, right wing harassment, you systematically erect every possible barrier to transparency and accountability in your role as SecState. Then, when called on it (by EVERYBODY, not just the "right wing pundits"), you start inventing obviously fabricated, outright ridiculous excuses for this behavior.

Why didn't you just use the State email system, as you told your tens of thousands of staff to do?

"It was far more convenient for me to have my own email server, so that I didn't have to carry around multiple devices to stay on top of my communications."

Strange! And you carried around multiple devices anyway. But, okay. Can we have ALL State-related emails?

"I have turned them all over to State."

Well, actually, we're not confident about that, because more and more emails are surfacing that were sent from your server that were State-related and that you did not turn over.

"My staff and I carefully scrutinized all emails to determine which were State-related and which were personal, and I turned over all State-related ones."

Well, actually, neither you nor any other human being actually reviewed your emails. You ran an incredibly superficial algorithm to make the determination. And, as we now know for certain, that algorithm didn't get the job done. So, we ask again for all State-related emails.

"I can't provide anything more than I already have, because I have deleted all emails from the server at this point."

Whaaaat??? WHY would you do that??? Okay, we can still work with that. Can we instead go through the server to try to recover emails that might still be on it?

"No. I wiped the entire server."

What, what, WHAT? WHY in the world would you do THAT??? Okay, even now, we can still work with that. Please hand over the server, so that we can do forensic analysis of the drive(s) and perhaps recover many/all of the wiped emails and do our own analysis of what was and was not State-related, since, CLEARLY, your analysis was inadequate and more and more it appears that you are stonewalling/hiding State-related communications.

"No. That would be inappropriate."

Poor, abused Hillary: the victim (yet again) of relentless, right-wing attacks. WHY won't the right wing just leave her alone? (Mini-violin playing even more hauntingly and poignantly in the background.)

No, sorry, that doesn't work. The American people have a RIGHT to know what she did as SecState. We have a right to those communications... ALL of them, since she very intentionally chose to mix State and personal communications. We have a right to the TRUTH from her about why she handled her communications as she did.

Look, there are really only two choices here:

1) She is astoundingly stupid/incompetent about something this important, which severely damages her credibility to be President.

2) She systematically arranged things to hide and lie and obfuscate, so as to very intentionally (intended before she ever wrote her first email as SecState) REFUSE the American people the right to State information guaranteed to us by law and by common decency. This would more than merely damage her credibility to be President.

(1) is not the case. She KNEW the story. She KNEW the suspicion and even outrage her actions would engender. She KNEW enough to warn her own staff to not play the game she was even at that moment designing to play. She KNEW enough to get the server set up and (supposedly) secured. She knew. This was neither stupidity nor incompetence.

She HAS no "clean" way out of this mess and no way for it to play out looking right or reasonable for her. And, in fact, this is a mess entirely of her own creation. And every time she opens her mouth about it, she looks worse. So, now she knows to keep her mouth shut and hope that the electorate memory is short (which it usually is) and that enough people are not technically savvy enough to recognize the facts and obvious motivations of what she did.

So, now she goes on her first campaign "tour" and refuses, utterly refuses, to have ANY conversation with the media. Her kick-off ad campaign doesn't even show her face! She's "running" to be the President of the United States, and her KICK-OFF "efforts" don't even SHOW her!

When, since we've been in the era of modern, national media, WHEN has a presidential candidate intentionally HID from the media during the kick-off weeks?

And it's all so unnecessary. The EASY thing for her to do was just use the State email system AS she told her staff to do. EASY! CONVENIENT! ABOVE suspicion!

And it's not like WE don't have alternatives.

Elizabeth Warren says she won't run. She says this because the party bossed have told her: "Don't muddy the waters. Hillary has paid her dues, and it's her turn. If you run, you just cause trouble for Hillary. So leave it alone."

Either that, or she has too much integrity to jump into the cesspool that HILLARY has created with her candidacy.

I've said I could vote for a Demoncrat. I haven't seen Warren as "candidate" yet, so I can't say. But I could definitely vote for somebody like a Warren, especially depending upon who survives the GOP primary process (God save us from a Ben Carson!).

WHY hasn't the "right wing" gone after Warren for years and years as they have with Hillary? It's not like she hasn't DONE anything (TARP come to mind?). But HER political life is NOT one long litany of scandal, as is Hillary's.

Is Hillary REALLY the best the Demoncrats can do???
couchmaster

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2015 - 09:43am PT
Another Email hot off the press: STORE CLOSES TONIGHT!!!



Now I know some of you are wanting to talk politics cause of this. But this is about the Hillary store - she's a very capable woman too. Certainly as smart as Bill and he was damned smart guy.

And to you Hillary haters I'll admit that sure she took in billions of dollars to enrich herself and her favorite projects (via the Clinton Foundation) and in response to those large donations from all kinds of foreign donors she then gave out personal favors and diplomatic commitments that the United States and the taxpayers were on the hook for while she was Secretary of State. At least that's the current story.

Then to cover up that activity in violation of the law she used her own personal E-mail address on her own personal server during the whole time that this activity was going on, THEN DELETED AND THEN ERASED EVERY BIT OF DATA ON THE HARD DRIVE (including all of the emails she wanted hidden) so no one can pull up any dirt on her.


Y'all all are clearly just a bunch of woman haters. Well, that's what the Clinton machine will be laying down soon. LOL


But I digress: STORE CLOSES TONIGHT!!!



crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 09:52am PT
Madbollter...you're parroting rightwing talking points. The election is 18 months away and you're upset she didn't talk to the press on her first visit to Iowa??? What? Why? Do you care what type of burrito she ordered, too? She'll face the press a thousand times, relax.

Name me the things she has been found guilty of.....waiting.... Just a bunch of innuendo and fake scandals.

Is Elizabeth Warren a skilled enough politician to get anything done? Can you think of another candidate to the left of Hillary who promised a lot but had trouble delivering? And the rightwing did go after her when she ran - her native american claim. Hillary has been around a long time. She has scars and faults, yes, but she's tough and will make a good president. Just watch.

TW, you're the one who is brainwashed. And we all know you don't vote, anyway.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 10:12am PT
Madbollter...you're parroting rightwing talking points.

ROFL

You can read my post and come up with THAT? Oh my....

Name me the things she has been found guilty of.....waiting.... Just a bunch of innuendo and fake scandals.

You mean a crime? Like a felony?

Well, the same was said of Al Capone, until his final conviction for... tax evasion!

Nixon pleaded the same thing, until he was finally forced to resign in infamy.

Nobody is convicted of anything... until they are convicted of something.

And are you going to tell me that she is not guilty of violating the clear intention of the freedom of information act?

Are you going to tell me that ALL of these "fake scandals" (presumably including this new email scandal) are just inventions of the right wing, that she is above all reasonable suspicion?

Are you going to tell me that the Demoncrats have NOBODY to offer us that is not scandal-ridden?

And the idea that Warren is not as credible as Hillary to govern is absurd.

Obama was NOTHING prior to being the President! Surely Warren is at least as competent as Obama. LOL
dirtbag

climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 10:30am PT
And are you going to tell me that she is not guilty of violating the clear intention of the freedom of information act?

I have no idea what that means.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 23, 2015 - 10:37am PT
Madbollter...you're parroting rightwing talking points.

Is that comment an example of left wing "argument?" If what madbolter posted is untrue, provide the refutation. If what he posted was true, but analyzed incorrectly, provide the correction. Responding as above demonstrates an inability to refute the post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

John
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 23, 2015 - 10:44am PT
The left wing refutes the right wing with "parroting talking points!" The right wing refutes the left wing with "where there's smoke there's fire" and "guilty until proven innocent!" If other people were eventually proven guilty, then Hilary must be guilty too!

Now we're making progress :-) Human believing at its finest. My beliefs must be true somehow!
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 10:53am PT
What you're doing is repeating the rightwing media's throw-out-everything-and-something-will-stick baloney.
Whitewater
"Filegate"
Vince Foster
Benghazi
E-mails (don't the people who received these e-mails have a copy?)

It all must add up something! Violating the intent of the Freedom of Information Act? That's what you got???

A candidate doesn't get to enact their platform. They have to be a skilled politician to get anything done in Washington. Why do you think the Republicans are going nuts about Hillary? They fear her. They don't fear Bernie Sanders.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 10:56am PT
I have no idea what that means.

Here's some help: http://foia.state.gov/

Look at Section §171.11.e: Record means all information under the control of the Department, including information created, stored, and retrievable by electronic means, regardless of physical form or characteristics, made in or received by the Department and preserved as evidence of the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures, operations or other activities of the Department or because of the informational value of the data contained therein. It includes records of other Government agencies that have been expressly placed under the control of the Department upon termination of those agencies. It does not include personal records created primarily for the personal convenience of an individual and not used to conduct Department business and not integrated into the Department's record keeping system or files.

And this line is what Hillary intentionally sought to use as a loophole to keep at least some of her State-related emails to herself: It does not include personal records created primarily for the personal convenience of an individual and not used to conduct Department business and not integrated into the Department's record keeping system or files.

By intentionally mixing her State and private emails together on her own system (i.e.: "not integrated into the Department's record keeping system or files"), and intentionally USING the language of "convenience," she KNOWS exactly what section of the FOIA she will appeal to if push comes to shove. And the American people will be (yet again) torn to decide if it is worth pursuing her on the "fine point" of the all-important phrase: not used to conduct Department business.

Hillary DID "conduct Department business" using her own email server, and she DID NOT turn over all of her State-related emails to State as required by FOIA (and as specified as "available" on State's on website).

The irony here is that she acknowledged State's right to ALL of those emails, as specified in subsection (f): Control means the Department's legal authority over a record, taking into account the ability of the Department to use and dispose of the record as it sees fit, to legally determine the disposition of a record, the intent of the record's creator to retain or relinquish control over the record, the extent to which Department personnel have read or relied upon the record, and the degree to which the record has been integrated into the Department's record keeping system or files. And she CLAIMED that she HAD complied by turning over all State-related emails. So, she both acknowledges the law and claims to comply with it WHILE in fact not actually complying with it.

If even ONE email surfaced as State-related, sent from her server, and not turned over in her 30,000+ emails as being "all" of her State-related emails, then the American people would have ample reason to demand access to her server. In fact, multiple such emails have surfaced, and there will be more.

So, we know that Hillary knew the relevant text of State's own language regarding FOIA, that she has already appealed to it in her "explanation" of how she handled her emails, and that she is NOT in compliance with FOIA. She has flatly and intentionally precluded the American people from EVER having access to information that is clearly specified in FOIA and in State's own language as being "available" to them.

Surely by now she has hired consultants to do a deep, multi-pass, randomized overwrite of her drive(s), so that when (in eventual grandiose fashion) she sighs deeply and then turns over the server (assuming it's even THE server), nothing will be recoverable.

But the FOIA is clear, and State's interpretation of it is clear. And at this point it seems clear that Hillary intentionally (and successfully) circumvented that law's application to HER.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 10:57am PT
Not going to work TW, go to the Mind thread to get that one frozen.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:06am PT
Here is how the Right Wing Scandal Machine works.

They search for something that is questionable about someone they want to smear, they all jump on board and make a big dust storm, then they point to the dust storm and say "look at all that smoke, well there must be something to this scandal, because everyone is parroting the talking points now"

even though there was nothing there in the first place,

or it was caused by the Republicans in the first place, like them not funding the security for Benghazi

or the Republicans have done the same thing but a thousand times worse, like Jeb Bush deleting all his e-mails, and Huckabee paying $100,000 to wipe his computer clean after he left office, or Karl Rove running the Bush admin on his server, that he then wiped clean after he was subpoenaed by Congress.

All Secretaries of State before Kerry had their own server, but now we only talk about Hillary?

It just exposes their hypocrisy, and that they GOT Nothing to run on.
Can you win a campaign on hating and smearing the opposition? they will try.



go ahead and tell me what they are running on
lower taxes for the rich, higher military spending, less protections for real people and more debt, that is what they are running on, they just hope you are a typical Republican sucker and don't catch on to how they will screw you
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:13am PT
It all must add up something! Violating the intent of the Freedom of Information Act? That's what you got???

Yeah, that's what I've got, and it ought to be enough.

I have never appealed to "it all" in any sense. I've said that Hillary wears her corruption on her sleeve, and she does. I've said that she is scandal-ridden, and she is.

Not everybody is "guilty until proven innocent." There are two reasons why Hillary is a special case here.

1) Hillary, unlike most Americans, yet like a man like Al Capone, is scandal-ridden and rife with suspicious behaviors and associations. By contrast, a candidate like Ben Carson (again, God save us from a guy like him making it through the process) is AT LEAST not a suspicious character with suspicious behaviors and associations.

2) Hillary, unlike most Americans, wants to have her finger on the nuclear trigger, and so her honesty, integrity, motivations, and TRANSPARENCY are under a level of scrutiny that most Americans justifiably have no interest in enduring.

We VET (or at least try to vet) candidates for that office! So, if you don't like the fire, then don't bring your OWN smoke! Hillary IS a smoke-filled room, and it is a legitimate question to ask: IS there actually fire anywhere? It sure SEEMS like there's fire here somewhere! Can there be THIS much smoke with nary a fire anywhere around???

That is not a "right wing" concern. That is an American concern.

And the email scandal would be more than enough, if it weren't for the Demoncrat true-believers that will vote for Hillary NO MATTER what she does.

Regarding the idea that copies of all of her emails exist among the people she sent them to, it is obvious that the ones we would be most concerned about reside with people that will never share them, and they have probably all been deleted by now. HILLARY was legally responsible to hand over everything State-related, and we now know that she did not. Furthermore, SHE was responsible to be both transparent and compliant regarding ALL State-related communications. We now know that she was not AND that she very intentionally crafted a context in which she NEVER could be held accountable to the law.

I say again, SURELY the Demoncrats can offer us a candidate that is both minimally competent (Obama could do it!) AND that is not a MASS of scandals, lies, and obfuscations.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:19am PT
MB
That is YOUR Opinion

My opinion is that she is well qualified to be President
and she is one million times better than any Republican that will be a candidate.
Every Republican is way more corrupt, and many of them are already being investigated for some criminal activity.

There are only 2 choices, take your pick.
a decent first Women President, or 4 years of driving over a cliff with America on board.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:20am PT
Werner, you're right. I shouldn't bother.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:22am PT
Why doesn't anyone care about the Republican criminal investigations
Christy, Walker, Perry, etc.
what about Jeb Bush's e-mails?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:25am PT
MB
That is YOUR Opinion

Exactly, which is exactly what we share in such discussions.

My opinion is that she is well qualified to be President
and she is one million times better than any Republican that will be a candidate.

Your opinion, which, clearly, I don't share.

ALL I've cared about in my discussion is to indicate to reasonable minds why an increasing spectrum of reasonable Americans does not share the enthusiasm with which some other Americans view Hillary.

I, for one, find her despicable in the extreme. I don't trust her in the slightest. And integrity still matters to me.

In the end, I'll vote for that candidate that is the least of the evils, all things considered. But Hillary strikes me as pretty amazingly evil.

Christy, Walker, Perry, etc.
what about Jeb Bush's e-mails?

They are all terrible. However, unlike Hillary's setup, Jeb's was not beholden to the federal FOIA. It's not yet clear what Jeb did "wrong" by having multiple email accounts.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:30am PT

Yes, yes, let's all talk about illegal information gathering and cover-ups...


Edit: "In the end, I'll vote for that candidate that is the least of the evils, all things considered."

And who are you thinking that might be this time around, mb?
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:37am PT
Madbolter, you have been treated respectfully, your arguements are being factually refutiated and then you throw in with the forum bully. I guess you're a lost cause. Waiting for a savior who isn't coming.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 11:51am PT
Madbolter, you have been treated respectfully, your arguements are being factually refutiated

As have you, at least by me. And you have not "refutiated" (whatever that word is) my arguments.

The FOIA is clear. State recognizes it and even interprets it in a way that Hillary clearly violated. And Hillary violated it with intention to violate it, even referring to specific language in it in her efforts to circumvent it.

Who the lesser of the evils will turn out to be? Who knows yet? There are eighteen months to go. Maybe by the time of the election, Hillary will look like a saint by comparison to the others.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
"In the end, I'll vote for that candidate that is the least of the evils, all things considered."

And who are you thinking that might be this time around, mb?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
Who the lesser of the evils will turn out to be? Who knows yet? There are eighteen months to go. Maybe by the time of the election, Hillary will look like a saint by comparison to the others.

Asked and answered.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
Sorry...maybe I missed it. No offense, but I don't want to go through your long missives looking for a simple answer (that might not be there if I looked for it).

Of the potential GOP candidates (or any Party, for that matter)...which ones look good to you right now?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 01:13pm PT
which ones look good to you right now?

Not to be nit-picky, but, seriously, none look "good" to me right now.

Ron Paul looked better to me than others in times past, but he was very libertarian, and Rand is NOT his daddy in any relevant sense.

And the Rebumblecon primary morass seems designed to produce the most right-wing candidate possible, who then spends the remaining time in the general election process trying to cast him/herself as much more "moderate" than the primary made out. So, who knows WHAT you are really getting after that mess?

The fact that a guy like Ben Carson can be taken seriously by anybody is very, very troubling! He's a nice guy, a consummate surgeon, and due to a book and movie a somewhat known and highly-regarding individual. He's probably a really decent human being. He's also hyper-religious, ultra-right, and entirely unqualified to be CEO of our nation. He's a nicer, smarter version of Palin; and it boggles my mind that anybody takes him seriously.

I'm a Christian, but the LAST thing I want to see this country become is a theocracy! The far right is even more scary to me than the far left (barely).

So, none of them "look good" to me, because the primary process is going to exacerbate what are already scary qualities, and who knows what sort of candidate is going to emerge from that? I would probably find a moderate Demoncrat to be more palatable than whatever is going to emerge from the Rebumblecon primary process.

But, in case I have not said it clearly enough: Both parties stink!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 23, 2015 - 01:32pm PT
Since I've been on the road lo these many weeks I'm not fully up to speed on
the latest machinations hereabouts. Has the SuperTopo Robespierre Chowder
and Marching Society endorsed Hillary yet or are they going down the Path of
Futile Righteousness and holding out for Elizabeth?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 23, 2015 - 01:38pm PT
Carly Fiorina reminds me of a pole vaulter that misses twice at opening height, and passes to the next height to get three more chances. When she misses twice, she passes again. She has yet to clear one political bar. In any case, I have a very difficult time seeing how someone with zero government experience has the qualifications for President. Undeterred by my skepticism, she plans to announce her candidacy. The nerve!

;>)

John
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 23, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
Don't know if this has been posted. I'm too lazy to scroll through the whole thread, but it sure as sh#t made me laugh.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 02:12pm PT
" I would probably find a moderate Demoncrat to be more palatable than whatever is going to emerge from the Rebumblecon primary process."

So who would you consider to be a 'moderate Demoncrat' who is considering throwing their hat into the ring?

Of those who are in the buzz right now (Sanders, Hillary, Warren, that Green Party woman, etc.) Hillary is definitely the most moderate in terms of overall agendas. Sanders & Warren are considered to be pretty far lefties.

You may not like her personality & history, but her platform is about the most moderate of them all...hell, she ran to the right of Obama, remember?
More Air

Trad climber
S.L.C.
Apr 23, 2015 - 02:49pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
You may not like her personality & history, but her platform is about the most moderate of them all

The problem is that her "personality and history" indicate that her platform is a chimera. Who knows what this woman is? What I am confident of, however, is that she sees herself as above the law and above accountability. That pretty well nullifies "her platform" to me.

Reilly, you made me laugh out loud again. You have a particular turn of phrase that repeatedly hits my funny bone.

John, worth a wry chuckle as well. Kudos
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 23, 2015 - 02:59pm PT
Of those who are in the buzz right now (Sanders, Hillary, Warren, that Green Party woman, etc.) Hillary is definitely the most moderate in terms of overall agendas. Sanders & Warren are considered to be pretty far lefties.

Agree, Apogee, and this is her great strength. Her positions are close enough to the center on enough issues and she has sufficient negotiating ability to form a real consensus on governance, which is the big weakness of the current administration, and also of candidates like Ted Cruz. If the Democrats nominate her, the Republicans will have a tough time unless their nominee has similar abilities. Then the other aspects of "Clinton Fatigue" could be her undoing.

A Cruz/Clinton battle would be a Republican bloodbath, in my opinion. A Bush/Clinton battle would be a big disappointment to the American public. Someone like Marco Rubio, on the other hand, could make it a very interesting contest.

John
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
Crankloons

good name for a climb, now get out there and put it up
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:15pm PT
"Who knows what this woman is?"

I never would have guessed that Bush 2 would have been as devious as he had been. Welcome to politics.


"What I am confident of, however, is that she sees herself as above the law and above accountability."

Funny thing about that...when it's a politician that one supports, the tactics they use get brushed aside as political maneuvering...even ignored outright.

But when it's a politician that we don't like, those same maneuvers get called as dirty or illegal.

The common thread: It's Politics.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:32pm PT
^^
TW, the Mind Thread - that's where we go to get frozen. Here, you're just Mr. Sunshine having a very bad day.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:35pm PT
Funny thing about that...when it's a politician that one supports, the tactics they use get brushed aside as political maneuvering...even ignored outright.

But when it's a politician that we don't like, those same maneuvers get called as dirty or illegal.

The common thread: It's Politics.

I "get" that, but I don't accept it. "Politics" just gets dirtier and dirtier, and the bar just gets lower and lower for personal integrity. I am in NO sense being "partisan" to despise Hillary. I DESPISED Bush II before her!

When these jerks (of any party) start acting like they are not accountable to US at all moments of every day, they need to be gone. This is not corporate America, and corporations enjoy a legal privilege to be "thought of" as "persons." But WE THE PEOPLE are innately persons, and it is to US that these "representatives" answer first and foremost.

The "partisan" bickering in this dirty, vilifying context among AMERICANS is what keeps us from being an essentially united America.

If we would put aside "partisan" assessments and start assessing candidates on a record of CEO-level competency, integrity, and demonstrated desire to serve the rule of law, we could perhaps get some candidates whose actual politics (platforms) would matter.

Such candidates did exist in the dimly distant past. Their "bickering" today seems downright laughable and sophomoric.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
Writers cramp. locker..TW kinda rolls off the fingers.

Edit: To be honest, TW gets pretty boring. How do you debate with the 9/11 Truther crowd? I've never seen anything the guy has posted that wasn't sheer nonsense.

keeps us from being an essentially united America.
Have you spent much time traveling around the US? Are you a follower of politics? It's clear to me the voters are partisan, they elected the tea party goons to office that are ruining the country.
We are not now and are never going to be "unified". Sides are drawn and very few people change sides, ever.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:48pm PT
Yeah, "despise" is a strong word. It's actually tough for me to know how to cast the mix of emotions I feel. It's something akin to disgust and despise, though.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:52pm PT
""Politics" just gets dirtier and dirtier, and the bar just gets lower and lower for personal integrity."

Yeah, well, I'm not so sure personal integrity has changed a helluva lot in politicians over the last 200 years, but the partisanship & political process sure has.

I still think that a lot of politicians (most, maybe) do have a desire to lead responsibly and ethically (whatever the hell that is), but the political process is just so retarded that it's impossible to do their jobs in an honest, forthcoming manner. Anyone who even tries doesn't get very far before they are gutted and left behind.

Of course, anyone who would subject themselves to today's political process has gotta be a little (lot) touched in the head to start with. It's all relative, and it's all politics. You want honesty & integrity? Become a Buddhist monk.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
^^^DMT for the win!!!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:56pm PT
Of course, anyone who would subject themselves to today's political process has gotta be a little (lot) touched in the head to start with.

SO true, and well stated!

The process now does not cause the cream to rise to the top; it causes other kinds of "floaters" to rise.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
They reward the worst behaviors.

NAILED it!
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Apr 23, 2015 - 04:05pm PT
Funny about "politics." I think what the politicians learned from Watergate is to destroy the tapes. 40 years ago, we found that sort of behavior reprehensible. Now we call it par for the course. We can blame "politics" or "politicians," but we should be looking in the mirror.

John
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 04:07pm PT
We are not now and are never going to be "unified". Sides are drawn and very few people change sides, ever.

I'm not talking about "sides" in the sense of platforms and publicly-stated agendas.

I'm talking about the party divide that keeps us from honestly, systematically, and in NON-partisan fashion assessing the basic integrity (accountability and abiding by the rule of law) of our putative representatives.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 04:17pm PT
I think what the politicians learned from Watergate is to destroy the tapes.

Exactly.

Now, "Hillary destroys the drives," and our response is: "So what. Any 'scandal' is really just politics. Everybody has done what she's done. Even Jeb had multiple email accounts."

MY attitude is: IF it's true that all the current candidates have done as she has done, then NONE of them are fit for office. I don't care about "party" or platform when it comes to this sort of thing. I'm not singling Hillary out for special condemnation IF the case can be made that everybody else has done as she did.

I haven't looked into it, but a thought just crossed my pea-brain, and I'm thinking out loud (dangerous): What if they held an election and nobody voted? What if we somehow sent a message to the party bosses that we the people find NONE of their offerings acceptable, and they can start their lame process over and produce some candidates that are minimally qualified AND that have demonstrated integrity?

John, maybe you are up on what the constitutional repercussions would be in the short term. I'm curious and will look into what would happen, because I don't think the founders contemplated that such a thing even COULD occur. Just a thought experiment. LOL

You know, effectively a vote of no confidence in the present PROCESS.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 23, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
Madbolter.... great posts. Please keep it up.


You know as all of this is shaking out.... I bet we see Al Gore pop back into the picture.....



crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 04:35pm PT
NON-partisan fashion
You're familiar with Citizens United, right? I'm sure you've turned on a TV during an election year.

There isn't going to be any "I'm mad as hell and I'm not taking it anymore" movement. Why don't you give Hillary a chance? Why not listen to what she's saying instead of all the spin? What position of hers, exactly, do you disagree with.

Frankly, you're doing a lot of moralizing about her character and I don't think you really know much about her.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 04:39pm PT
"I think what the politicians learned from Watergate is to destroy the tapes. 40 years ago, we found that sort of behavior reprehensible. Now we call it par for the course. "

C'mon, John...politicians have been covering their tracks as long as there have been....politics.

Everybody's got skeletons that some politician is gonna find for their own benefit, and if there aren't any, they'll make 'em up, or plant a seed of uncertainty in the minds of voters 'that it could be there'...a la the stoooopid-arse birther bullsh#t.

The reason why these tactics still work is because they work on the voters & viewers. And that's exactly what DMT is referring to as 'our responsibility'.

We get the leadership we deserve, and that we ask for. As soon as we stop being duped by the manipulations, the process will change. (Not holding breath here.)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 05:08pm PT
Thank you, guyman. I do appreciate it.

Al Gore... now he's looking pretty good at the moment. LOL

Regarding the oft-repeated argument that keeps cropping up: They all have skeletons that somebody is gonna find and use....

Again, there is a huge difference between "skeletons" and flagrant, public circumventing of the rule of law and basic accountability.

I myself have "skeletons," as we all do. But we all can recognize the difference between our shortcomings, failings, and "skeletons" that would be irrelevant to our performance of public duties and those aspects of our characters/behaviors that would impinge directly upon our performance of those public duties.

I don't care for partisan witch hunts. But it's not "partisan" to care about the integrity of the offices.

Hillary knew exactly what she was doing, she knew exactly how (to the chapter and verse) she was going to circumvent the FOIA, she knew exactly what she was intending at the outset to hide from the American people, and she treats us as ignorant and even stupid in her responses to very legitimate questions about her behavior on the matter. This email thing is not the same as just some irrelevant "skeletons" we each might have in our closets.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
it breeds some wierd strategies.

Is there any "weird strategy" that's a deal-killer for you?

Watergate?

Iran/Contra?

Anything Hillary could "strategize" that would ruin her for you?
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 23, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
"Hillary knew exactly what she was doing"

How do you know this? You don't. You're guessing.
All worked up over e-mails...never mind there's no evidence of wrongdoing. Nothing illegal.
Just a "hint", a "pattern of behavior"...which so far amounts to zero. Like Benghazi. Like Whitewater.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 23, 2015 - 05:47pm PT
Al Gore is too busy selling carbon credits to Bernie Madoff's old clients.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 05:52pm PT
"Anything Hillary could "strategize" that would ruin her for you?"

Yeah.

A WAR.

A really big one, built on completely false pretenses, that resulted in the loss of thousands of lives and limbs while mostly benefitting a bunch of corporate cronies.

THAT would do it for me.


(No, BEEEEENNNNNGGGGGHHHHAAAAZZZZZIIII!!!!!! isn't the same thing.)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 06:24pm PT
I'm glad to hear that you have SOME line. And I'm with you that the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld bunch should be in prison.

It just takes a lot more for you to say "no go" than it does for me.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 23, 2015 - 06:29pm PT
mb, you ain't got a smoking gun with Hillary's emails. You'd like to think there is, but there isn't any direct evidence of anything.

Just speculation. Of course, that's enough for the GOP to go on...they can nuke an entire campaign just on fear & speculation....'what if there is something in those emails?'

Not saying you are one of those droids...but try to resist listening to those droids, huh?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 07:00pm PT
mb, you ain't got a smoking gun with Hillary's emails.

I don't care about the CONTENT of her emails at all yet. I'm not persuaded about anything yet regarding the content of the emails that we will probably never be able to see.

I watched her press conference on the subject for myself. I heard her "explanation" of her motivation and behavior, and what I'm calling her on is her PROCESS.

Forget content. Her process is entirely unacceptable and in violation of the FOIA. You said that you didn't want to read my "lengthy missives." Fine, NP. I get that.

But there's no "short" way to explain the case. So if you're not going to read the actual argument, you'll have me arguing what I'm not arguing; and you don't see the problem with her process that I have outlined. So, we are now officially arguing past each other. :-)

Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 23, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
Someone please explain how the republican Presidential candidate gets to 270 electoral votes?



The Dems take both the white house and the Senate in 2016

deal with it

the Repubs will control the House until at least 2020

Divided Government, lots of drama coming up but nothing gets done for the middle class

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
Someone please explain how the republican Presidential candidate gets to 270 electoral votes?

This is a fool's errand, not because there are no such scenarios but because as soon as any scenarios are offered, you'll almost certainly start saying how "impossible" or "unlikely" such scenarios are.

For example, as just a start, most maps at present show Hillary winning Colorado. But such maps come apart from recent polls that show Rand Paul beating Hillary handily in Colorado. Such maps also don't contemplate that Hillary lost 15% among Demoncrats following her email press conference (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/19/us-usa-clinton-poll-idUSKBN0MF0DV20150319). She will almost certainly gain most of those people back, but all sorts of scenarios could hand Hillary a drubbing.

So, let's start with this:

1) You are saying that Hillary wins. Period.

Or,

2) You are saying that there is some possibility of some Rebumblecon winning.

If (1), then it's a fool's errand to try to show you the possibilities. So, you can't claim a "default win" regarding your challenge just because nobody here wants to go off on a fool's errand.

If (2), then you don't need anybody to explain the possibilities to you, because you must already realize them.

As I read it, your faux challenge has only the appearance of a win.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 23, 2015 - 07:47pm PT
wow. madbolter

you really have an impressive command of the political landscape!

good in depth analysis

did you major in Political Science in college by chance?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 07:51pm PT
good in depth analysis

As I said, any attempted "in depth" analysis would be met with "can't read your long missives" and "that will never work, and here's why," etc., etc.

Fool's errand, so I'm just unmasking your "challenge" for what it really is.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 23, 2015 - 07:57pm PT
It's a fools errand to try to convince each other to the opposite perspective. Yet we try, and we're not fools. Go figure. We like saying stuff like its a fools errand. It's fun to listen to humans too :-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 23, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
It's a fools errand to try to convince each other to the opposite perspective. Yet we try, and we're not fools.

Good point. I stand corrected.

However, the sort of analysis Norton wants would either be "too superficial" to be convincing even to reasonable minds or "too long a missive" to read. Either way, it's a loss.

I'll let somebody else take a stab at convincing him of the possibilities. LOL
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 24, 2015 - 07:44am PT
Money makes strange bedfellows, no? Goodnight!

dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 24, 2015 - 10:45am PT
Just a quick refresher course lest we forget what has happened to many “friends” of the vile Clintons.

1- James McDougal – Clintons convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr’s investigation.
2 – Mary Mahoney – A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown .. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House.
3 – Vince Foster – Former White House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock’s Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.
4 – Ron Brown – Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown’s skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. The rest of the people on the plane also died. A few days later the air Traffic controller commited suicide.
5 – C. Victor Raiser, II – Raiser, a major player in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.
6 – Paul Tulley – Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock , September 1992. Described by Clinton as a “dear friend and trusted advisor”.
7 – Ed Willey – Clinton fundraiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
8 – Jerry Parks – Head of Clinton’s gubernatorial security team in Little Rock .. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock Park’s son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house.
9 – James Bunch – Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a “Black Book” of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas
10 – James Wilson – Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater..
11 – Kathy Ferguson – Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.
12 – Bill Shelton – Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.
13 – Gandy Baugh – Attorney for Clinton’s friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.
14 – Florence Martin – Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal, Mena, Arkansas, airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.
15 – Suzanne Coleman – Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.
16 – Paula Grober – Clinton’s speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.
17 – Danny Casolaro – Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.
18 – Paul Wilcher – Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 “October Surprise” was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993, in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.
19 – Jon Parnell Walker – Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington , Virginia apartment balcony August 15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guaranty scandal.
20 – Barbara Wise – Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.
21 – Charles Meissner – Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.
22 – Dr. Stanley Heard – Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton ‘s advisory council personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather and brother.
23 – Barry Seal – Drug running TWA pilot out of Mena Arkansas, death was no accident.
24 – Johnny Lawhorn, Jr. – Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.
25 – Stanley Huggins – Investigated Madison Guaranty. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.
26 – Hershell Friday – Attorney and Clinton fundraiser died March 1, 1994, when his plane exploded.
27 – Kevin Ives & Don Henry – Known as “The boys on the track” case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES – HENRY CASE:
28 – Keith Coney – Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.
29 – Keith McMaskle – Died, stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988
30 – Gregory Collins – Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.
31 – Jeff Rhodes – He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.
3 2 – James Milan – Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to natural causes”.
33 – Jordan Kettleson – Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.
34 – Richard Winters – A suspect in the Ives/Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.
THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:
36 – Major William S. Barkley, Jr.
37 – Captain Scott J . Reynolds
38 – Sgt. Brian Hanley
39 – Sgt. Tim Sabel
40 – Major General William Robertson
41 – Col. William Densberger
42 – Col. Robert Kelly
43 – Spec. Gary Rhodes
44 – Steve Willis
45 – Robert Williams
46 – Conway LeBleu
47 – Todd McKeehan
Miscellaneous Deaths and NEAR MISSES:
Stanley Heard, Chairman, National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee
Steve Dickson, – Counsel to Mr. Heard
died: 9/10/93
Both died in a plane crash outside Dulles airport, after their aircraft, rented after Heard’s personal craft developed troubles, crashed while attempting an emergency landing after reporting a fire on board. Let’s repeat that. They took off in a plane. It developed problems. They got it back to the airport. They rented a new plane. They took off in the new rented plane and IT developed a problem. On the way back to the airport it crashed. – Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton’s advisory council, also personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather, and brother.
Carlos Ghigliotti, Thermal Imaging Expert
Carlos Ghigliotti: 42, was found dead in his home just outside of Washington D.C. on April 28, 2000. There was no sign of a break-in or struggle at the firm of Infrared Technology where the badly decomposed body of Ghigliotti was found. Ghigliotti had not been seen for several weeks.
Ghigliotti, a thermal imaging analyst hired by the House Government Reform Committee to review tape of the siege, said he determined the FBI fired shots on April 19, 1993. The FBI has explained the light bursts on infrared footage as reflections of sun rays on shards of glass or other debris that littered the scene.
Don Adams
Died Jan 7 1997
Long before Whitewater’s land flips made the Clinton’s circle of friends rich, many of the same players had been involved in a similar land swindle in Branson. Don Adams was a lawyer in Arkansas who got involved trying to help the people who were being swindled out of their life savings.
Jim Wilhite, Vice Chairman, Arkla, Inc.
died: 12/21/92 – Died in a one-person skiing accident. – Wilhite had extensive ties with Clinton and Mack McLarty, with whom he visited by telephone just hours before his death.
Theodore Williams, Jr., Bettie Currie’s brother.
died: 12/16/97 – Traffic accident.
A passing car hit the brother of Presidential Secretary Betty Currie after his own car had somehow run off the road. Bill Clinton called Monica Lewinsky at 2:00 AM the next morning to tell her of the death and alert Monica that her named appeared on the Paula Jones witness list. Betty’s brother had also been beaten shortly before Betty testified in a previous matter.
Also see the INSLAW deaths:
Larry Guerrin
Was killed in February 1987 while investigating the INSLAW case.
Alan Standorf
An employee of the National Security Agency in electronic intelligence. Standorf was a source of information for Danny Casalaro who was investigating INSLAW, BCCI, etc. Standorf’s body was found in the backseat of a car at Washington National Airport on Jan 31, 1991.
Dennis Eisman
An attorney with information on INSLAW. Eisman was found shot to death on April 5, 1991.
Danny Casalaro
Danny was a free-lance reporter and writer who was investigating the “October Surprise”, INSLAW and BCCI. Danny was found dead in a bathtub in a Sheraton Hotel room in Martinsburg, Virginia. Danny was staying at the hotel while keeping appointments in the DC area pertinent to his investigation. He was found with his wrists slashed. At least one, and possibly both of his wrists were cut 10 times. All of his research materials were missing and have never been recovered.
Ian Spiro
Spiro had supporting documentation for grand jury proceedings on the INSLAW case. His wife and 3 children were found murdered on November 1, 1992 in their home. The all died of gunshot wounds to the head. Ian’s body was found several days later in a parked car in the Borego Desert. Cause of death? The ingestion of cyanide. Declared a murder/suicide.
Wounded or attempted murder:
Gary Johnson
Not dead, but beaten near death and left for dead. Had videotapes of Clinton entering Gennifer Flowers’ apartment. His tapes were taken.
Dennis Patrick
Court clerk. Had millions of dollars laundered through his account at Lassater & Co without his knowledge. Four attempts on his life.
L.J. Davis
Reporter investigating Clinton scandals. Attacked at his hotel room in Little Rock. His notes were stolen.
Larry Nichols
Former official at ADFA and author of “The Clinton Chronicles.” The man who broke many of the Clinton scandal stories. Several attempts on his life.
Russel Welch
Infected with military grade anthrax.
Charles Wilbourne Miller
Died 1/12/99. Vice President and Board Member for Alltel, the computer company that wrote the White House “Big Brother” computer system. Found shot to death with two guns. Multiple shots had been fired. Declared a suicide.
Gordon Matteson
Died 5/15/97. Clinton associate. Shot in the head. Declared a suicide.
David Drye
Died 8/1999. Pat Matrisciana, owner of “Jeremiah Films” (which produces such vides asThe Clinton Chronicles), and David Drye planned a trip to Washington DC by Private plane. At the last second, pat had to cancel and David left without him, dying when the plane crashed.
Sadly, the list goes on……
Quite an impressive list! Let the public become aware of what happens to friends of the Clintons!
HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT? …SURELY YOU JEST!!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:07am PT
^^^^^^^ Lol! ^^^^^^^
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:16am PT
^^^^LOL x2!

Looks like dc got his email today...another cut & paste job...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:46am PT
Okay, but is it a cut/paste of true associations/events, or is it filled with significant errors? You laugh, so you apparently believe it is full of errors. What are the errors?

Errors are going to be of several major types:

1) People on the list that didn't actually exist or are misnamed or otherwise misidentified.

2) People on the list claimed as associated with the Clintons that really were not or that did not have the claimed association to the Clintons or to the specified events.

3) People on the list who either did not die at all or who did not die when/how the list claims.

If the list is substantively correct in terms of persons/associations, that is a pretty hairy list by any measure. The innuendos roll right off of me. But the people/associations alone form a pretty daunting list, unless you can explain errors of the form I've mentioned.

Care to point out the errors rather than just laugh and ad hominem?

Otherwise, the point is well taken that you had better not have anything to do with the Clintons if you hope to live out a natural life.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:50am PT
#3 Vince foster story is true
Clinton drove Vince to kill himself..
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:57am PT
"Otherwise, the point is well taken that you had better not have anything to do with politics if you hope to live out a natural life."

Fixed that for ya.

Are we going to make lists now of all of the real or speculated ills ever made by our favorite or detested politicians?

Gawd, that sounds like a boring, pointless task.

Of course, emailed lists & cut & paste should make the job much easier. Right, dirtclaud?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:59am PT
Yeah, we know about Bush's war. Nobody here likes it. I myself have said, and I mean, he and his cronies ought to be in prison.

Irrelevant to a 'ready for Hillary' thread.

Back on topic: What is "nuttery" about the list? What specifically is in error about it?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
Ummm.....like maybe the fact that most of it is unsubstantiated & speculative?

Just because you get it in an email, or see it on Breitbart, doesn't make it true...
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
I sure see a lot of you coming up with evidence that shows that my "cut and paste" was all BS. Facts do not matter, perception does I see.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
And if you are going to seek a politician that doesn't have any kind of weirdness in their background...or even stuff that could be twisted as weird....you're gonna come up empty-handed.

See, mb, that kind of nuttery & the way it attracts partisan eyeballs is exactly the reason why our political process is so fecked up. The little droids are easily attracted to shiny things, away from real facts and reality.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
If the list is substantively correct in terms of persons/associations, that is a pretty hairy list by any measure. The innuendos roll right off of me. But the people/associations alone form a pretty daunting list, unless you can explain errors of the form I've mentioned.
Madbolter, I think your approach to questioning list is true, but then you seem to contradict yourself by asking others to disprove what's on the list. I believe it is incumbent upon the people propagating such lists to establish the truth of what they're alleging. Imagine if our justice system demanded that victims disprove unsupported charges made against them?

Edti: dirt claud, how about you actually provide some proof that anything on your list is true?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
"Facts do not matter"

Sure they do. Show us some, and let's talk about them. Your little email list doesn't count as facts, just because it showed up in your inbox from another whacknut.

"...perception does I see."

Damn right. And you've perceived that list as 'facts'. Good droid....very good droid...


Edit:
"I believe it is incumbent upon the people propagating such lists to establish the truth of what they're alleging."


YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
Well, actually, the vast majority of human beings (politicians or otherwise) could not be associated with a list like that.

So, what is in error about it?

If, say, Al Capone had such a list of witnesses and potential witnesses associated with high-profile investigations turn up dead, we would naturally think: "Hmm... that's getting beyond coincidence. How convenient for Al that they just happened to die when they did. Hmm... perhaps it's no surprise that Al's never been convicted of anything for which he was being investigated."

And then, Al is "innocent" because he's never been convicted. It's all just smoke, but no actual fire. So, were the feds just wasting taxpayer dollars to relentlessly go after Al Capone?

I mean, it's all just "circumstantial" until there's a conviction. Right?

But unless you can point out specific errors in the list, that's a pretty damning pile of convenient deaths... far more than the vast majority of humans (of any profession) can be associated with.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
"But unless you can point out specific errors in the list, "

"I believe it is incumbent upon the people propagating such lists to establish the truth of what they're alleging."
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
what is weak, as a political argument against a particular politician is that "lisst" of people
who may have met, had dinner with, sang a song with, whatever..

is simply that

and unless a strong correlation of proven wrongdoing or illegal behavior is established

such attempts remain,.. weak...without merit


all of us, everyone on this forum....has associated with other people who are of dubious
behavior, in and out of our lives at different times

reasonable intellects understand this and also that people have the ability to judge people they meet, or meet with, on those merits only, and not as some proof of their lack of personal character

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
I'm confused.

The burden of proof in this case is dubious, and both "sides" are going to claim that the other side has it.

However, even the briefest of checking online shows that the first few items are legit (year, person, death). It's a LONG list! And what would count as "proof of truth" for each item?

The NYT has just recently reported on the Clinton Foundation ties to Russian nuclear materials ownership (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0). Is the NYT a credible source?

Would a NYT article reporting on each of the items in the list be "proof of truth" for you?

I'm just curious what the bar is that "proof" has to get over.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
Here's an example, madbolter. Don't get too pissy about this.

madbolter f^#ked a goat in 2011.

Prove it didn't happen!

Otherwise, it's a 'damning' accusation that stands.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Never any discussions here about the important issues facing the country and who is best qualified, based on a record, to be president. Mostly just this tired anti-Clinton bs.

The Forum Bully should be adding his screed any minute.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
Partial analysis reveals folks purported to be associates of the Clintons are prone to suicide and/or airplane crashes. Doesn't leave much room for the CIA and "death by taking a sheeit".

With all this evidence, it's amazing that the two of them are not sitting on death row right now.


Just a quick refresher course lest we forget what has happened to many “friends” of the vile Clintons.

1- James McDougal – Clintons convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr’s investigation.
2 – Mary Mahoney – A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown .. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House. by whom
3 – Vince Foster – Former White House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock’s Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.
4 – Ron Brown – Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown’s skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. The rest of the people on the plane also died. A few days later the air Traffic controller commited suicide.
5 – C. Victor Raiser, II – Raiser, a major player in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.
6 – Paul Tulley – Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock , September 1992. Described by Clinton as a “dear friend and trusted advisor”.
7 – Ed Willey – Clinton fundraiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
8 – Jerry Parks – Head of Clinton’s gubernatorial security team in Little Rock .. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock Park’s son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house. by whom
9 – James Bunch – Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a “Black Book” of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas
10 – James Wilson – Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater..
11 – Kathy Ferguson – Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.
12 – Bill Shelton – Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.
13 – Gandy Baugh – Attorney for Clinton’s friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.
14 – Florence Martin – Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal, Mena, Arkansas, airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.
15 – Suzanne Coleman – Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.
16 – Paula Grober – Clinton’s speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.
17 – Danny Casolaro – Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.
18 – Paul Wilcher – Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 “October Surprise” was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993, in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.
19 – Jon Parnell Walker – Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington , Virginia apartment balcony August 15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guaranty scandal.
20 – Barbara Wise – Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.
21 – Charles Meissner – Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.
22 – Dr. Stanley Heard – Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton ‘s advisory council personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather and brother.
23 – Barry Seal – Drug running TWA pilot out of Mena Arkansas, death was no accident.
24 – Johnny Lawhorn, Jr. – Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.
25 – Stanley Huggins – Investigated Madison Guaranty. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.
26 – Hershell Friday – Attorney and Clinton fundraiser died March 1, 1994, when his plane exploded.
27 – Kevin Ives & Don Henry – Known as “The boys on the track” case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES – HENRY CASE:
28 – Keith Coney – Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.
29 – Keith McMaskle – Died, stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988
30 – Gregory Collins – Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.
31 – Jeff Rhodes – He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.
3 2 – James Milan – Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to natural causes”.
33 – Jordan Kettleson – Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.
34 – Richard Winters – A suspect in the Ives/Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.
THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:
36 – Major William S. Barkley, Jr.
37 – Captain Scott J . Reynolds
38 – Sgt. Brian Hanley
39 – Sgt. Tim Sabel
40 – Major General William Robertson
41 – Col. William Densberger
42 – Col. Robert Kelly
43 – Spec. Gary Rhodes
44 – Steve Willis
45 – Robert Williams
46 – Conway LeBleu
47 – Todd McKeehan
Miscellaneous Deaths and NEAR MISSES:
Stanley Heard, Chairman, National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee
Steve Dickson, – Counsel to Mr. Heard
died: 9/10/93
Both died in a plane crash outside Dulles airport, after their aircraft, rented after Heard’s personal craft developed troubles, crashed while attempting an emergency landing after reporting a fire on board. Let’s repeat that. They took off in a plane. It developed problems. They got it back to the airport. They rented a new plane. They took off in the new rented plane and IT developed a problem. On the way back to the airport it crashed. – Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton’s advisory council, also personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather, and brother.
Carlos Ghigliotti, Thermal Imaging Expert
Carlos Ghigliotti: 42, was found dead in his home just outside of Washington D.C. on April 28, 2000. There was no sign of a break-in or struggle at the firm of Infrared Technology where the badly decomposed body of Ghigliotti was found. Ghigliotti had not been seen for several weeks.
Ghigliotti, a thermal imaging analyst hired by the House Government Reform Committee to review tape of the siege, said he determined the FBI fired shots on April 19, 1993. The FBI has explained the light bursts on infrared footage as reflections of sun rays on shards of glass or other debris that littered the scene.
Don Adams
Died Jan 7 1997
Long before Whitewater’s land flips made the Clinton’s circle of friends rich, many of the same players had been involved in a similar land swindle in Branson. Don Adams was a lawyer in Arkansas who got involved trying to help the people who were being swindled out of their life savings.
Jim Wilhite, Vice Chairman, Arkla, Inc.
died: 12/21/92 – Died in a one-person skiing accident. – Wilhite had extensive ties with Clinton and Mack McLarty, with whom he visited by telephone just hours before his death.
Theodore Williams, Jr., Bettie Currie’s brother.
died: 12/16/97 – Traffic accident.
A passing car hit the brother of Presidential Secretary Betty Currie after his own car had somehow run off the road. Bill Clinton called Monica Lewinsky at 2:00 AM the next morning to tell her of the death and alert Monica that her named appeared on the Paula Jones witness list. Betty’s brother had also been beaten shortly before Betty testified in a previous matter.
Also see the INSLAW deaths:
Larry Guerrin
Was killed in February 1987 while investigating the INSLAW case.
Alan Standorf
An employee of the National Security Agency in electronic intelligence. Standorf was a source of information for Danny Casalaro who was investigating INSLAW, BCCI, etc. Standorf’s body was found in the backseat of a car at Washington National Airport on Jan 31, 1991.
Dennis Eisman
An attorney with information on INSLAW. Eisman was found shot to death on April 5, 1991.
Danny Casalaro
Danny was a free-lance reporter and writer who was investigating the “October Surprise”, INSLAW and BCCI. Danny was found dead in a bathtub in a Sheraton Hotel room in Martinsburg, Virginia. Danny was staying at the hotel while keeping appointments in the DC area pertinent to his investigation. He was found with his wrists slashed. At least one, and possibly both of his wrists were cut 10 times. All of his research materials were missing and have never been recovered.
Ian Spiro
Spiro had supporting documentation for grand jury proceedings on the INSLAW case. His wife and 3 children were found murdered on November 1, 1992 in their home. The all died of gunshot wounds to the head. Ian’s body was found several days later in a parked car in the Borego Desert. Cause of death? The ingestion of cyanide. Declared a murder/suicide.
Wounded or attempted murder:
Gary Johnson
Not dead, but beaten near death and left for dead. Had videotapes of Clinton entering Gennifer Flowers’ apartment. His tapes were taken.
Dennis Patrick
Court clerk. Had millions of dollars laundered through his account at Lassater & Co without his knowledge. Four attempts on his life.
L.J. Davis
Reporter investigating Clinton scandals. Attacked at his hotel room in Little Rock. His notes were stolen.
Larry Nichols
Former official at ADFA and author of “The Clinton Chronicles.” The man who broke many of the Clinton scandal stories. Several attempts on his life.
Russel Welch
Infected with military grade anthrax.
Charles Wilbourne Miller
Died 1/12/99. Vice President and Board Member for Alltel, the computer company that wrote the White House “Big Brother” computer system. Found shot to death with two guns. Multiple shots had been fired. Declared a suicide.
Gordon Matteson
Died 5/15/97. Clinton associate. Shot in the head. Declared a suicide.
David Drye
Died 8/1999. Pat Matrisciana, owner of “Jeremiah Films” (which produces such vides asThe Clinton Chronicles), and David Drye planned a trip to Washington DC by Private plane. At the last second, pat had to cancel and David left without him, dying when the plane crashed.
Sadly, the list goes on……
Quite an impressive list! Let the public become aware of what happens to friends of the Clintons!
HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT? …SURELY YOU JEST!!






Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
However, even the briefest of checking online shows that the first few items are legit (year, person, death). It's a LONG list! And what would count as "proof of truth" for each item?
OK, this should seem obvious, but the name and year of death for each individual is not what the list is about, so affirming that information does nothing. Right? The list is really about the claimed connection with those persons' death and some alleged Clinton influence that prompted those deaths. Prove that and you have some list.

One big problem with the list just at arm's length is that the deaths supposedly were intended to prevent disclosure of some event that would bring the Clintons' downfall. But given that each of the events went public and were never proven, you have to think the person in charge with making these people unavailable did a really poor job. Either that or the deaths had nothing to do with disclosure of the events.

For the record, since the list appears to suggest a conspiracy between the Clintons and the deaths, which would amount to a criminal act, the burden of proof would be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Good luck.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
**madbolter f*#ked a goat in 2011.**

Prove it didn't happen!

There is a vast difference in specificity between that obviously spurious accusation and the items that appear in the list. Specificity and the lack thereof are the telling features of serious vs. spurious accusations.

This also goes to Norton's claim that "any associate" (ate with, sang a song with, etc.) we might have had could be equivalent to the people on the list.

NO to both arguments.

The list does not spuriously say: "The Clintons knew a guy, and he died. The Clintons knew some other woman, and she died." Such "accusations" would be akin to your "madbolter f*#ked a goat in 2011" assertion.

But the list instead seriously states: "James McDougal, a Clinton partner in the Whitewater project, a project that was being investigated by Kenneth Starr, with McDougal being a key witness in that investigation, died of an apparent heart attack while imprisoned."

There is no way correlate that sort of specificity with "madbolter f*#ked a goat in 2011."

Beyond specificity, another key principle concerns the subject/accused relation. The list is not saying anything like "madbolter [the accused] f*#ked [what the accused is accused of] a goat [the subject] in 2011. The list is not saying: "Bill Clinton [accused] arranged to have James McDougal [subject] killed [what the accused is accused of] in prison and made to look like a heart attack."

Your spurious subject/accused relation lacks a key component: the accuser. Are you the accuser? Is some friend of yours the accuser, and you are merely repeating what he said?

A key aspect of what makes "your accusation" spurious is that there is no reason to presume that YOU have any knowledge of the subject/accused relation at all. Thus, there is a much stronger burden of proof upon you. YOU have to somehow "get related" to the subject/accused.

You need to add a LOT to the accusation to have it rise to a level worth contemplating: "I was present at a gay bar in Stockton, California in March of 2011 with some 'friends' of mine, and I saw madbolter there also. What I immediately noted was that madbolter didn't have any human friends there, but he had apparently brought in a small herd of goats with him. We were all getting pretty drunk, hot, and bothered, but madbolter kept to himself and his goats. I thought he was cute, so I kept my eye on him and even tried to flirt with him repeatedly, but he only had eyes for his goats. Eventually, 'hot and bothered' turned into an orgy. Several of us tried to pull madbolter in, but he had his own mini-orgy with the goats. Oh, and I know madbolter by sight because I've climbed with him repeatedly."

NOW you've got a prima facie reason for somebody to think that you know something about the subject/accused relation. And NOW you've also got specificity that madbolter can respond to: "This goofball doesn't know what he's talking about. He's never climbed with me, and he doesn't know me. He's never even been ON the climb he is critiquing...." Oops, wrong response context.... "I've never been into the bar he references, and in March of 2011 I was in Florida, not even in the state to which he refers."

Your goat "accusation" asserts a subject/accused relation but is obviously specious because it lack specificity AND it lacks any reason to suppose that you know anything about the subject, the accused, or any possible relation they may have had. As stated, your "accusation" lacks an accuser as well as any reason to think that the accuser knows anything.

By contrast, the list does not make any subject/accused relation claims beyond "knew" or "was associated with in this context." Those are all quite specific, so they are not spurious, and in fact, it appears to me that the relations themselves are public-knowledge, having been widely reported in many national media contexts. Moreover, there are no "accusations" in the list; the list simply states associations and events. There are no "accused verbs," so no "subject/accused" relations: "The Clintons did this and this to the subject."

The sweeping innuendo in the list is vague, something like: Knowing the Clintons can be hazardous to your health and life. There, the sheer length of the list, coupled with the closeness of the associations, goes far beyond "just anybody I might have had a drink with." No, it is instead "dear friends," business partners, and so forth are who turn up dead. Lots and lots of them.

Well, okay, the Clintons "know" a lot of people. But now, in such a response you are already accepting the prima facie credibility of the list. In this response you are just arguing that the list of deaths is a small proportion of the total number of comparably-closely-related people that the Clintons know. You are thereby appealing to something like actuarial tables to say something like: "If you are comparably-closely-related to 10,000 people, as the Clintons are, then the number of deaths among them that you see on this list coheres with the expected death rate among such a group of people."

NONE of this in any sense correlates with "madbolter f*#ked a goat in 2011."
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
One big problem with the list just at arm's length is that the deaths supposedly were intended to prevent disclosure of some event that would bring the Clintons' downfall. But given that each of the events went public and were never proven, you have to think the person in charge with making these people unavailable did a really poor job.

It never works like you say.

Gangsters, for example, don't kill off people willy-nilly in "proactive" mode to keep accusations from ever emerging in the first place. Instead, they kill off witnesses and potential plea-bargains once there is a genuine threat.

If the Clintons were indeed involved in behaviors they hoped would never see the light of day, what they would not do is start killing off associates in preemptive fashion! First, such preemptive strikes would likely call attention to relations better left undisturbed, thereby triggering investigations that might (hopefully would) not ever be discovered. Second, even the most callous (that are still sane) among us don't kill people willy-nilly. Even though willing to commit murder invariably need a stronger motivation than "vaguely possible threat."

So, "the person in charge with making these people unavailable" actually did exactly the job one would expect in such a scenario: the actual threat was "made unavailable" in the context of a situation that singled that person out AS the actual threat.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:07pm PT
Methinks thou doth protesteth too much about the goat.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
But why did you f*#k the goat?

I DIDN'T! I DIDN'T! I DID NOT DO THAT!

Not once! Not EVER!

I never turned the tip of my big (some might say massive), hard drill "inward" EVER! If I EVER pointed my thingy toward a goat, it was ALWAYS at an oblique angle. Never inward! Okay? GOT it?
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
During Clinton's presidency, several million Americans died.

Several. Million.

Should I list them?

Anyone who votes for that monster Hillary has blood on his hands.

And btw, everyone else alive during the Clinton years will die too. And they did nothing to stop it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
"some might say massive"

"I believe it is incumbent upon the people propagating such <things> to establish the truth of what they're alleging."
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
Look (sigh), I'll try to explain once and for all.

Rubbing (or even gently tapping) the tip along its side is not the same thing as "dimpling" IN. You've gotta go IN (even if only a little) for it to be technically called "fvking" the goat. Surely you can get that. Can't you?

I can draw a diagram if you need me to.

Now and then, I'll admit, I've done a bit of "rubbing" or even "gentle tapping," but rarely, and ALWAYS "alongside." I don't actually ENTER, even with a "dimple."

So, yeah, you've got me on the whole goat bit. They are irresistible by nature. But not IN! Never IN!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:21pm PT
"I believe it is incumbent upon the people propagating such <things> to establish the truth of what they're alleging."

I totally agree, so I would urge the "some" to come forward with what they have alleged.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:23pm PT
I don't think dirtclaud is going to be able to do that. Can you step up for him?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:29pm PT
It wouldn't have the same "weight" coming from me.
couchmaster

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 24, 2015 - 01:47pm PT


Those in the know say it was a sheep anyway....

zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
Gandy is dandy, but innuendo is quicker.


This is some of it. Three separate websites (the first three that popped) just passing around the kool-aid.

Gandy Baugh, Attorney representing Mr. Lassater in a case concerning alleged financial misconduct.
died: 1/8/94 - Died in an alleged suicide by jumping out of a window of a multi-story building. - Mr. Lassater was a close associate of Gov. Clinton, and was later indicted on drug related charges, among other things. Baugh's law partner was "suicided" one month later on 2/9/94

Gandy Baugh, attorney representing Mr. Lassater in a case concerning alleged financial misconduct, died in an alleged suicide on Jan.8, 1994, by jumping out of a window of a multi-story building. Mr. Lassater was a close associate of Gov. Clinton, and was later indicted on drug related charges, among other things. Baugh's law partner was "suicided" one month later on Feb. 9, 1994.

Gandy Baugh Died Jan. 8, 1994 Attorney representing Dan Lasater in a case concerning alleged financial misconduct. Died in an alleged suicide by jumping out of a window of a multi-story building. Lasater was a close associate of Gov. Clinton, and was convicted of cocaine distribution. Baugh's law partner was also "committed suicide" one month later on Feb. 9, 1994.


If you persist, it does get more interesting and Black Muslim Obama finally makes an appearance.


Throughout the Democratic Primary, we were lead to believe that the Clintons and the Obamas do not get along. It is now clear that this forced acrimony was a charade to cover up a far more nefarious scheme. An email making the rounds now called Obama’s Death List goes into great detail about the many murders tied to Obama–one of them before he was 10. All in all, Obama was responsible for 18 murders. In fairness, this is still a far cry from the 62 deaths attributable to the Clintons.

What really stood out for me was the death of Gandy Baugh. According to the emails, Baugh was killed by the Clintons and Obamas both.

According to the Obama email : GANDY BAUGH – Attorney for Obama friend Antonin Rezko died by falling out an eightieth story window of the Hancock Tower, January, 2003. His client was a convicted Chinese spy.

While according to the Clinton email: Gandy Baugh: Baugh was Lasater’s attorney and committed suicide on January 8, 1994. Baugh’s partner committed suicide exactly one month later on February 8, 1994

This seems to exonerate Obama. Afterall, you can’t kill somebody who has already been dead for 9 years. However, it is possible that Baugh had faked his own death to fool the Clintons only to have Obama finally kill him nearly a decade later. This strikes me as a far greater conspiracy between the Clintons and Obamas than a simple murder and I urge the Justice Department to investigate him.




apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:53pm PT
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 24, 2015 - 02:05pm PT
Hey, I got more chest hair than that, come on!!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 02:12pm PT
A goat I "know of" has more chest hair than that.

Sheep are overrated and entirely passe'.

Unless you're into wool rather than chest hair.
Nibs

Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
Apr 24, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
does this help?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp

regarding MB and the Goat...it must be true.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 24, 2015 - 02:53pm PT

not really

because there is no probability of unbias when one is predisposed to being anti a particular political party or individual

especially when one has not yet grown out of the....because I believe it then it must be true

piss and moan, search desperately to denigrate

but what absolutely cannot do, period, is deny that both the economy and the markets
do significantly better when a Democratic Administration is in office

go ahead, ignore that, and cling to sitting in the bleachers and throwing rocks
dirtbag

climber
Apr 24, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
I'd forgotten about all that Vince foster stuff.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 03:20pm PT
The Bush Body Count!

Prove it ain't true, dirtclaud & mb!


http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/bush_body_count.htm

Sid Adger: Mr. Adger, a Houston oil supply company executive and Bush family friend, died in 1996 of Unknown Causes. Mr. Adger was the mysterious businessman who approached General James Rose and asked him to help George W. Bush avoid Vietnam by recommending him for a pilot position with the National Guard.

General James Rose: General Rose recommended George W. Bush for a pilot position with the Texas National Guard. He died of Unknown Causes in 1993. He was immediately buried and no autopsy was performed.

Orlando Letelier: He was torn to bits by a car bomb on the streets of Washington DC just before he was to testify about the Chilean dictator Pinochet. After the bombing, CIA Director George H. W. Bush told the FBI that there had been no Chilean involvement whatsoever. In 1991 the post-Pinochet Chilean Supreme Court asked George H. W. Bush if he would submit to questioning. He refused.

Ronni Moffit: She was Letelier's assistant. She and her husband were riding in the car with Letelier when the bomb exploded. Mr. Moffit survived. Ronni didn't.

Amiram Nir: He was a former Israeli agent who was in Jerusalem with George Bush during Iran Contra. He went under the assumed name of Pat Weber. Nir was scheduled to testify to the Senate subcommittee and it was feared he would reveal the truth. He perished, following the shooting-down of his aircraft with missiles from the helicopter of a man called Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep cover agent.

Senator John Tower: He was appointed by the Reagan/Bush Administration to chair the bipartisan committee to investigate the Iran/Contra scandals. He directed the Tower Report and had all the Iran Contra documents and knew the inside of the story. He was killed in an uninvestigated airplane crash later in Georgia in 1991. Also killed was his daughter, Marian.

Mario Ruiz Massieu: An apparent suicide. He was facing charges that he laundered money for the cocaine cartels. A Houston, Texas jury had found that $8 million in his bank accounts was paid to him by drug cartels.

Steve Kangas: His web site, Liberalism Resurgent, was meticulously researched and presented such a problem to the "real boss" of George Bush, Richard Scaife, that he hired a private detective to look into Kangas' past. Steve Kangas was found in a 39th-floor bathroom outside of Scaife's offices at One Oxford Centre, in Pittsburgh, an apparent suicide. Mr. Kangas, a very prolific writer, left no note. He had brought a fully-packed suitcase of clothes with him to Pittsburgh. He bought a burglar alarm shortly before he left for Pittsburgh. Why did he need a burglar alarm if he was going to commit suicide? An avowed advocate of gun control, he nevertheless bought a gun. What was he afraid of? Why did he go to Pittsburgh? After his death, his computer was sold for $150 and its hard drive wiped clean. Everything in his apartment was thrown away.

Mohammed Zia al-huk: Dictator of Pakistan, and knew all about Iran/Contra, the training, funding, and arming of narco-terrorists such as Osama bin Laden. In August 1988, the same day George Bush got the Republican nomination, his plane crashed into the ground with all engines running. The Pakistanis kept the bodies around (in violation of Islamic custom) for weeks, awaiting US experts. They showed up three weeks later and never checked the bodies. Why?

Malcolm Baldridge: Commerce Secretary May 1987. Baldridge was familiar with the Bush family ties to the Communist Chinese. He died in a mysterious horseback riding accident.

Karla Faye Tucker: She was executed in spite of enormous protest from the public, even those religious groups that advocate the death penalty. Even Pat Robertson thought that Karla was truly repentant and asked George W. Bush to spare her life. He refused. Afterward, in a Talk Magazine interview, this stalwart of the Republican Party made fun of the woman whose death warrant he had sanctioned. How compassionate! As of August 1999, George W. Bush signed his 93rd death warrant.

President John Fitzgerald Kennedy: An internal FBI memo reported that on November 22 a reputable businessman named George H. W. Bush reported hearsay that a certain Young Republican had been talking of killing the president when he came to Houston. The Young Republican was nowhere near Dallas on that date. According to a 1988 story in The Nation, J. Edgar Hoover said in a memo that Mr. George Bush of the CIA had been briefed on November 23rd, 1963 about the reaction of anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami to the assassination of President Kennedy. George H. W. Bush has denied this, although he was in Texas at the time and cannot account for his whereabouts at the time. Bush Killed JFKjr

George de Mohrenschildt: A rich Russian oilman, who was described with his wife as being the two people friendliest to Oswald at the time of the assassination. De Mohrenschildt was the man who moved Oswald to Dallas. In the late 1970's, shortly before the first meeting of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, de Mohrenschildt started seeing a new doctor in town. He quickly became mentally unstable, at which time his wife convinced him to stop seeing the doctor. They moved away and left a false forwarding address. On the same day that the Committee tried to contact him about testifying, he was found dead of a gun shot wound. In his personal address book was the entry Bush, George H.W. (Poppy) and Zapata Petroleum Midland (the oil company owned by G.H. Bush).

Barry Seal: He was supposedly murdered by Medellin cartel members, but a 6-month investigation by Sam Dalton, attorney for three of the accused murderers, into Mr. Seal's life and death uncovered some interesting points. The accused's cartel connections were well known, but not their association with Oliver North's enterprise. Mr. Seal was a drug smuggler, up to his armpits in smuggling cocaine for - guess who? - the CIA. During the penalty phase of the Columbians' trial, testimony by one government witness on the activities of Mr. Seal was so damaging to the government, that 2 of the jurors wanted to change their verdict to "not guilty". The personal telephone number of George H. W. Bush was found in the trunk of Mr. Seal's car.

Florence Martin: She was Barry Seal's bookkeeper and was found in October 1994, sprawled across her bed, shot three times in the head through a pillow. Nothing in the house was taken, including her billfold (in plain view) or her late husband's gun collection. There was no evidence of a robbery.

William Colby: This former CIA director disappeared in an apparent boating accident, and a body was later discovered (minus the life jacket Colby's friends insisted he always wore while boating) and buried promptly. John DeCamp, a lawyer from Lincoln, Nebraska, and Colby's close friend and confidant, said Colby's death was not an accident. He stated that Colby was prepared to disclose that missing P.O.W.'s were working for a dope smuggling operation orchestrated by General Colin Powell, Pentagon official Richard Armitage, and George H. W. Bush.

Mrs. E. Howard Hunt: In December 1972, while George H. W. Bush was at the Republican National Convention, a United Airlines flight carrying Mrs. E. Howard Hunt, CIA operative and wife of Howard Hunt, (CIA operative and suspect in the Kennedy assassination) crashed. Believed to be carrying $25,000 in "hush money", she died in this crash.

Danny Casolaro: He was working on a book that tied together the scandals surrounding the presidency of George H. W. Bush. He told his friends he was going to "bring back" the head of the Octopus. Instead, his body was found in a hotel in Martinsburg, West Virginia, on August 10, 1991, an apparent suicide.

Don McCoy: Mr. McCoy had agreed the day before to turn state's evidence in an FBI investigation that threatened some of El Paso's most prominent business leaders. On February 19, 1988, he took off from El Paso International Airport, banked to the right and headed southwest for approximately 2 * miles before it slammed into the I-10 right-of-way and exploded. With him was his secretary and her 11-year old son. All three were killed.

Olof Palme: He was the prime minister of Sweden, assassinated in 1986. Oliver North, the golden boy of the Bush/Reagan machine, had met with Mr. Palme to discuss the possibility of obtaining false end-user certificates for the plethora of weapons that were being purchased, so that they would seem to have come from a country other than the U.S. Mr. Palme refused to participate, after the plan was presented to him. He was dead within weeks.

Archbishop Oscar Romero: Archbishop Romero was a true hero, speaking out against atrocities by a Bush/Reagan backed fascist government. He refused to appear in public with any army or government personnel, and was a voice for the thousands of tortured, slaughtered and oppressed in El Salvador. He was shot in the back while preparing Mass. The death of Archbishop Romero is one among many. There is not enough space to list the hundreds of thousands who died under Reagan/Bush-backed, right-wing governments.
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 24, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
Been following the conversation for a few days.
Madbolter1 and Apogee have both made some well reasoned and good points to consider, Dingus and Jelezarian are always thought provoking.

I really think the Democrats, in their hearts, hope another player comes into play because of all the Clinton baggage.
No matter what can or can't be proven, the Clintons have attained great personal wealth just by being in office.
The Clinton Foundation "seems to be" a money laundering operation for influence peddling of foreign interests. It just looks sleazy.
Outside of Democrat partisans, there is a widespread perception of dishonesty with Hillary.
In addition, Hillary is not that likeable a person and her personality is wooden. In today's world, likeability is an important trait.


I personally would like to see Hillary get the nomination. The circus would be in town.
We'll see who the Republicans bring to their circus.

I suspect that whoever is elected or which party wins, small business and the middle class will support the big corporations and the "47%".
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
Good points, Larry. Thank you.

Prove it ain't true, dirtclaud & mb!

Why would I?

Throw up anything you can about Bush, and I'll go along. LOL

Can't stand him, so bring it on! I'll believe anything.

Anything, I tell ya.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:23pm PT
Start a war you better be at the very front.

That is actually a really excellent principle. Our founding leaders held to it. Washington was a hero because of it.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:40pm PT
Did you know that such Body Count Lists are very common about ex-Presidents? Yessirree, there's no end to the schlock that people will believe....

Edit:
"In today's world, likeability is an important trait."

Yeah, I guess so...sorta.

One of the more obnoxious public polling 'likeability' metrics you hear for POTUS's is 'which candidate you'd prefer to drink a beer with'.

Fecking stoooopid metric, for typical stooopid Americans.

Being POTUS is hard. I'd prefer someone who could play hardball when it mattered, and had the DC seasoning to know how to get sh#t done. Obama has come up waaaay short in this department...Hillary's Washington history might be a weakness to some, but having someone in there who knows how sh#t works in DC (and where the bodies are hidden) could be a great advantage to the Democrat agenda.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
there's no end to the schlock that people will believe....

That is very true.

It is also true that people trying to avoid believing schlock can be impossible to convince, even when the "preponderance of evidence" supports a position they should believe.

It's like the line: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't out to get you.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
had the DC seasoning to know how to get sh#t done.

In the modern age, to me this is always a huge weakness!

"DC seasoning" is now equivalent with corruption and cronyism.

And the last thing I want is for the government to "get sh|t done," because the "sh|t" that's gonna get done today is invariably theft and violations of negative rights.

Most of you LOVE Obamacare, but that was "sh|t that got done" that was both theft and violations of negative rights.

What I want is a government that will stay the hell out of my life as much as possible, and that means getting very little "done."
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 04:55pm PT
"Most of you LOVE Obamacare, but that was "sh|t that got done" that was both theft and violations of negative rights."

'Love' it? Nope, far from it. But it's a helluva lot better than what McCain (or any other GOP candidate) would have made happen.

If Hillary had been in there the last 7 years, I betcha she would have brass-knuckled Congress the way they needed it (and Obama was too lily-livered to do), and made the real solution happen: The Public Option.

In 2008, I went back & forth on Obama vs. Hillary...I now largely regret that Obama got the nod. Hillary would undoubtedly have accomplished more of the badly-needed progressive agenda.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Apr 24, 2015 - 05:07pm PT
Olof Palme: He was the prime minister of Sweden, assassinated in 1986. Oliver North, the golden boy of the Bush/Reagan machine, had met with Mr. Palme to discuss the possibility of obtaining false end-user certificates for the plethora of weapons that were being purchased, so that they would seem to have come from a country other than the U.S. Mr. Palme refused to participate, after the plan was presented to him. He was dead within weeks.

Olaf Palme was trying to nationalize Sweden's prolific arms industry, which goes back to being a big supplier (and supporter) of the Nazis. That's who killed him. Shady business, there's still old Nazi's in that business there. Best not to cross them.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 05:15pm PT
Yeah, but Bush was alive & on this planet at the time of his death...ergo, he was related to his death.

See how this works?
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 24, 2015 - 05:58pm PT
Do you want a president who denys the fact that human behavior is one of the causes of climate change? Would sell our public lands to the highest bidder? Deny a woman's right to choose? Ban gay marriage? Start another Mideast war?

some 50 million America adults did exactly that when they voted for McCain and Romney

and they went to the poles and voted for McCain at the exact same time as the economy had experienced 3 quarters of negative growth and was officially in Recession

they voted Republican for McCain when the monthly job losses were over 500,000
and trillions of dollars in American's retirement account were lost in the stock market


so yes..they would indeed rather vote for the milkman, ignorant party loyalty is everything
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 24, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
so yes..they would indeed rather vote for Hillary, ignorant party loyalty is everything

Sure is!

apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 07:17pm PT
Anytime TGT posts something sexy, I throw up a little in the back of my mouth.

*urp*
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 24, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
Anybody like to fish?

couchmaster

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2015 - 07:08am PT
That's a good list Apogee, but you forgot or missed the most interesting and shocking one to implicate the Bush administration. The probable murder of Michael Connell, the Bush stalwart supporter and IT guy who died in a plane crash shortly after changing his story and admitting to rigging the Ohio election machinery for Bush.
"Connell's death came at a moment where election protection attorneys and others appeared to be closing in on critical irregularities and illegalities. On the night of the 2004 election, exit polls and initial vote counts showed John Kerry the clear winner of Ohio's presidential campaign. The Buckeye State's 20 electoral votes would have given Kerry the presidency.

Connell was deposed as part of the King Lincoln Bronzeville v. Blackwell case that alleged civil rights violations during the 2004 election. During the case, the Ohio Secretary of State’s office was forced to produce the election computer system configuration chart that was used in Ohio's 2004 presidential election when there was a sudden and unexpected shift in votes for George W. Bush. This “architectural map” clearly shows the election night server layout system from the Ohio Secretary of State’s office to servers owned by Smartech at the Old Pioneer Bank in Chattanooga, Tennessee."

Bitch about hanging Chad in Florida all you want, but the real story is that the contract for running the computer machinery in Ohio was run by a company Connell controlled, and after he had testified to the contrary, he felt bad and changed his story. He said that they rigged the machines in Ohio so Bush would win. But of course, he died tragically before he could testify in court to it. I suppose someone like poster Healyje, being a computer guru, could sus it out better than I can how that occurred, but it sure as hell looks like it happened to me. And they got away with it, after all, who was the attorney general? Haha. As Doug Buchanan use to say, if you don't laugh robustly it will just make ya cry.

Some links to get you started. But like the Smoking Duck says, it it looks like a politician and opens it's mouth, it's lying. And controlled. Not about Republican and Democrat these days. Although I voted for Kerry, it's about who gets to really run the show, and we don't get to vote for them or even know who that is. Kerry would have kept us out of Iraq and is a more honest person than Bush, but I suspect that he's tied into the cabal as well.

Here's some links to get anyone interested in started on all that shocking and little known news item:

http://www.projectcensored.org/12-mysterious-death-of-mike-connell-karl-roves-election-thief/

http://freepress.org/article/ghost-rigged-elections-past-new-revelations-death-michael-connell-0

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Killed_GOP_pilot_suspected_plane_had_1222.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/republican-it-guru-dies-in-plane-crash/

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2427075&msg=2427075#msg2427075

"I do not believe George Bush won, I believe Kerry won and I’m a member of the GOP,” admitted Spoonamore."

People generally don't read these kinds of posts unless it's a single line with a Krusty the Clown picture, so I can add that.
couchmaster

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2015 - 07:26am PT


Krusty The Clown picture with advice to Hillary. Just say:


Hope and change baby!





Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 25, 2015 - 07:44am PT
I posted on Michael Connell's death a couple years ago

He told someone that if he gets killed while flying, you can blame Karl Rove, since Karl Rove needed to silence him of the crime.

What is the body count of Karl Rove?
Or folks in jail?
To put pure evil (add Dick Cheney) in charge of your administration demonstrates who is really in control of the Republican party.

.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 25, 2015 - 08:01am PT
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 25, 2015 - 08:24am PT
Another great list!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 25, 2015 - 08:44am PT
fetal alcohol syndrome
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 25, 2015 - 09:08am PT

Jeb Bush was a signatory of PNAC


More on PNAC
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm

Vice President Dick Cheney is a founding member of PNAC, along with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Defense Policy Board chairman Richard Perle. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz is the ideological father of the group. Bruce Jackson, a PNAC director, served as a Pentagon official for Ronald Reagan before leaving government service to take a leading position with the weapons manufacturer Lockheed Martin.

^
It was about selling weapons and getting control of the Mid East Oil.
The lost lives is just part of doing business when you are an evil sociopath and can break any law you want.

We still don't know the extent of the Torture Program, the illegal detention program, the illegal wiretapping program, the surveillance program, the total Iraqi deaths, the Afghani deaths, the American injuries, the cost of it all ... all illegally brought to us by Bush/Cheney.

Mitt said he would continue the torture program, I guess he hasn't read the Constitution, or the Reagan Memo about torture.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 25, 2015 - 09:14am PT
Hmmmm....why is the star on the GOP elephant upside down?

Never noticed that.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 25, 2015 - 09:29am PT
From above link
it was written in 2003

Iraq is but the beginning, a pretense for a wider conflict. Donald Kagan, a central member of PNAC, sees America establishing permanent military bases in Iraq after the war. This is purportedly a measure to defend the peace in the Middle East, and to make sure the oil flows. The nations in that region, however, will see this for what it is: a jump-off point for American forces to invade any nation in that region they choose to. The American people, anxiously awaiting some sort of exit plan after America defeats Iraq, will see too late that no exit is planned.

All of the horses are traveling together at speed here. The defense contractors who sup on American tax revenue will be handsomely paid for arming this new American empire. The corporations that own the news media will sell this eternal war at a profit, as viewership goes through the stratosphere when there is combat to be shown. Those within the administration who believe that the defense of Israel is contingent upon laying waste to every possible aggressor in the region will have their dreams fulfilled. The PNAC men who wish for a global Pax Americana at gunpoint will see their plans unfold. Through it all, the bankrollers from the WTO and the IMF will be able to dictate financial terms to the entire planet. This last aspect of the plan is pivotal, and is best described in the newly revised version of Greg Palast's masterpiece, "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy."

Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 25, 2015 - 09:54am PT
They're all Satanists and pedophiles.

and you, New World Order Banned and Reincarnated, live in a twisted world that sees
conspiracy under every rock, makes sweeping blanket generalizations

such as...

they are ALL satanists and pedophiles

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 25, 2015 - 10:02am PT
nwo2...Don't forget those chem trails....!!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Apr 25, 2015 - 10:17am PT
nwo2...I have a friend that lives in Taos..He worked at the Tonopah Stealth base on security detail where 2 different trucks would fuel the aircraft...He's thinking about leaving Taos because of the radioactive dust levels from the nuclear test sites west of there...rj
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 25, 2015 - 10:37am PT
Madbolter - sounds like you might enjoy the impressive list of Ufo sightings over at uforc.org. Look at the specificity of the accusations! Its crazy to believe that they're not aliens if you're a crazy human like us!

Gangsters for example don't kill off people willy-nilly in "proactive" mode to keep accusations from ever emerging ..

Nice! You've convinced yourself that you're an expert in gangster behavior and are trying to use your delusion as a step in displaying the rationality of your beliefs. But you made up your expertise in gangster behavior and then just convinced yourself that it's true. That's cool for you, just some of us don't buy it as illustrating the rationality of your belief processes :-) Our human awesomeness at confirmation bias makes us really good at type 1 errors. Praise Jesus!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 25, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
Confirmation bias
From Wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.

Take Religion
'Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons.'
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 25, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
I don't have any non-smart beliefs to defend.
I'm a skeptic, all major BS has been purged
and good riddance

The only message I've been saying all these years is that the Republicans are evil (smart),they have proved that over the last 30 years with their actions
and the Dems are our only chance, but we have to have a cultural shift away from the power of money to make the sure the Dems stay in line (smart), once again proven by their actions.


The Smoking Duck has proven to not have any beliefs based on intelligence, they are all based on some book he read sometime in the past, or some loony web site, so hence, his whole world is based on confirmation bias.
And hence other every human is stupid because they don't have the same BS beliefs,
and to top it off, the beliefs are so crazy, he won't even share them.
snap
Larry Nelson

Social climber
Apr 25, 2015 - 02:35pm PT
Craig posted:
Confirmation Bias;

That pretty much sums up the political threads, and I admit I am susceptible.

Your example of religion is true also, but I would add that conservatives who believe in a Messiah tend not to look for him (or her) in the voting booth.


"Life is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel,"
Horace Walpole
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 25, 2015 - 03:22pm PT
Given all of those deaths, what's the probability that the clintons are responsible for murdering them? What"s the appropriate reference class?

The probability is either 0 or 1. Pick one of those and believe it. Then let the confirming begin!

Whoa, what's that strange light in the sky?!
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 25, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
Heaven help us (though I doubt it will) if the Dems and/or Repubs are our only chance.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Apr 25, 2015 - 03:51pm PT
Look! Up in the sky! it's a bird .. it's a plane .. it's FOX NEWS! Faster than a Clinton bullet. More convincing than madbolters rational arguments. :-)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 25, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
LOL

My Kung Fu is stronger than yours. I bring tiger style. What do you bring?
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 28, 2015 - 08:01pm PT
OK, lefties, we have a race.
http://digital.vpr.net/post/bernie-sanders-announce-presidential-run
philo

Trad climber
Is that the light at the end of the tunnel or a tr
Apr 28, 2015 - 08:18pm PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 29, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
This is government of the few, by the few and for the few.

Bernie Sanders is throwing his hat into the ring tomorrow for a bid to the Democratic nomination!
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 29, 2015 - 02:00pm PT
The better question is - are you ready for another bushmare?

No No No.... like his bro said.

Fool Me once, ya fooled me..
Fool me twice, got me again, dang it..
fool me again, er er er e r eeerrrr err errr ...

Like I stated up thread, no Bush rerun, no Clinton rerun. But it might be very interesting to see what sort of INTERN CREW billiary hires if she becomes prez....

"Tall, Strong, Young and Studly Intern needed for oval office. Must be willing and able to WORK late nites."


crankster

Trad climber
Apr 29, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
thanks less to Democratic policies than the stifling of republican ones

Ha! Inaccurate, to say the least. Economy goes off a cliff under Bush, recovers under a Dem president, but he gets no credit. That's weird.

I think it would be smart to look at a person's qualifications instead of their last name. We've never had a Trump president, that's a new name...does that mean he's qualified?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Apr 29, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
Crankster..... nobody is qualified.

Picking a prez is a crap shoot.... at best.

You need to go way back to LBJ to find a qualified prez.... as a senator, LBJ collected quite a few IOUs from other senators... then he had these to "cash in" when he was prez.... that is how he got things DONE. He also had tons of dirt on just about everyone in DC and he used that when needed.

This is why ex-governors never really get much done, or one term congressmen or Sec of State.....they have no club.

This is why I was for McCain, in till he agreed to have that Palen idiot as VP.... that showed his glaring lack of judgement. After that I went for Obama (regretfully) because I didn't think that being the wife of the prez qualified you for anything.... and I still feel that way.

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 29, 2015 - 03:26pm PT
When does Chelsea turn 35, in eight years?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 29, 2015 - 03:28pm PT
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/29/the-u-s-will-release-economic-growth-this-morning/


TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Apr 29, 2015 - 07:53pm PT
A Prog that can read?

Amazing!
Gary

Social climber
From A Buick 6
Apr 29, 2015 - 08:00pm PT