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apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:16am PT
^^^^LOL x2!

Looks like dc got his email today...another cut & paste job...
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:46am PT
Okay, but is it a cut/paste of true associations/events, or is it filled with significant errors? You laugh, so you apparently believe it is full of errors. What are the errors?

Errors are going to be of several major types:

1) People on the list that didn't actually exist or are misnamed or otherwise misidentified.

2) People on the list claimed as associated with the Clintons that really were not or that did not have the claimed association to the Clintons or to the specified events.

3) People on the list who either did not die at all or who did not die when/how the list claims.

If the list is substantively correct in terms of persons/associations, that is a pretty hairy list by any measure. The innuendos roll right off of me. But the people/associations alone form a pretty daunting list, unless you can explain errors of the form I've mentioned.

Care to point out the errors rather than just laugh and ad hominem?

Otherwise, the point is well taken that you had better not have anything to do with the Clintons if you hope to live out a natural life.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:50am PT
#3 Vince foster story is true
Clinton drove Vince to kill himself..
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:57am PT
"Otherwise, the point is well taken that you had better not have anything to do with politics if you hope to live out a natural life."

Fixed that for ya.

Are we going to make lists now of all of the real or speculated ills ever made by our favorite or detested politicians?

Gawd, that sounds like a boring, pointless task.

Of course, emailed lists & cut & paste should make the job much easier. Right, dirtclaud?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 11:59am PT
Yeah, we know about Bush's war. Nobody here likes it. I myself have said, and I mean, he and his cronies ought to be in prison.

Irrelevant to a 'ready for Hillary' thread.

Back on topic: What is "nuttery" about the list? What specifically is in error about it?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
Ummm.....like maybe the fact that most of it is unsubstantiated & speculative?

Just because you get it in an email, or see it on Breitbart, doesn't make it true...
dirt claud

Social climber
san diego,ca
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:02pm PT
I sure see a lot of you coming up with evidence that shows that my "cut and paste" was all BS. Facts do not matter, perception does I see.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
And if you are going to seek a politician that doesn't have any kind of weirdness in their background...or even stuff that could be twisted as weird....you're gonna come up empty-handed.

See, mb, that kind of nuttery & the way it attracts partisan eyeballs is exactly the reason why our political process is so fecked up. The little droids are easily attracted to shiny things, away from real facts and reality.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
If the list is substantively correct in terms of persons/associations, that is a pretty hairy list by any measure. The innuendos roll right off of me. But the people/associations alone form a pretty daunting list, unless you can explain errors of the form I've mentioned.
Madbolter, I think your approach to questioning list is true, but then you seem to contradict yourself by asking others to disprove what's on the list. I believe it is incumbent upon the people propagating such lists to establish the truth of what they're alleging. Imagine if our justice system demanded that victims disprove unsupported charges made against them?

Edti: dirt claud, how about you actually provide some proof that anything on your list is true?
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:05pm PT
"Facts do not matter"

Sure they do. Show us some, and let's talk about them. Your little email list doesn't count as facts, just because it showed up in your inbox from another whacknut.

"...perception does I see."

Damn right. And you've perceived that list as 'facts'. Good droid....very good droid...


Edit:
"I believe it is incumbent upon the people propagating such lists to establish the truth of what they're alleging."


YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
Well, actually, the vast majority of human beings (politicians or otherwise) could not be associated with a list like that.

So, what is in error about it?

If, say, Al Capone had such a list of witnesses and potential witnesses associated with high-profile investigations turn up dead, we would naturally think: "Hmm... that's getting beyond coincidence. How convenient for Al that they just happened to die when they did. Hmm... perhaps it's no surprise that Al's never been convicted of anything for which he was being investigated."

And then, Al is "innocent" because he's never been convicted. It's all just smoke, but no actual fire. So, were the feds just wasting taxpayer dollars to relentlessly go after Al Capone?

I mean, it's all just "circumstantial" until there's a conviction. Right?

But unless you can point out specific errors in the list, that's a pretty damning pile of convenient deaths... far more than the vast majority of humans (of any profession) can be associated with.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
"But unless you can point out specific errors in the list, "

"I believe it is incumbent upon the people propagating such lists to establish the truth of what they're alleging."
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
what is weak, as a political argument against a particular politician is that "lisst" of people
who may have met, had dinner with, sang a song with, whatever..

is simply that

and unless a strong correlation of proven wrongdoing or illegal behavior is established

such attempts remain,.. weak...without merit


all of us, everyone on this forum....has associated with other people who are of dubious
behavior, in and out of our lives at different times

reasonable intellects understand this and also that people have the ability to judge people they meet, or meet with, on those merits only, and not as some proof of their lack of personal character

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
I'm confused.

The burden of proof in this case is dubious, and both "sides" are going to claim that the other side has it.

However, even the briefest of checking online shows that the first few items are legit (year, person, death). It's a LONG list! And what would count as "proof of truth" for each item?

The NYT has just recently reported on the Clinton Foundation ties to Russian nuclear materials ownership (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0). Is the NYT a credible source?

Would a NYT article reporting on each of the items in the list be "proof of truth" for you?

I'm just curious what the bar is that "proof" has to get over.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
Here's an example, madbolter. Don't get too pissy about this.

madbolter f^#ked a goat in 2011.

Prove it didn't happen!

Otherwise, it's a 'damning' accusation that stands.
crankster

Trad climber
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Never any discussions here about the important issues facing the country and who is best qualified, based on a record, to be president. Mostly just this tired anti-Clinton bs.

The Forum Bully should be adding his screed any minute.
zBrown

Ice climber
Brujň de la Playa
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:26pm PT
Partial analysis reveals folks purported to be associates of the Clintons are prone to suicide and/or airplane crashes. Doesn't leave much room for the CIA and "death by taking a sheeit".

With all this evidence, it's amazing that the two of them are not sitting on death row right now.


Just a quick refresher course lest we forget what has happened to many “friends” of the vile Clintons.

1- James McDougal – Clintons convicted Whitewater partner died of an apparent heart attack, while in solitary confinement. He was a key witness in Ken Starr’s investigation.
2 – Mary Mahoney – A former White House intern was murdered July 1997 at a Starbucks Coffee Shop in Georgetown .. The murder happened just after she was to go public with her story of sexual harassment in the White House. by whom
3 – Vince Foster – Former White House councilor, and colleague of Hillary Clinton at Little Rock’s Rose Law firm. Died of a gunshot wound to the head, ruled a suicide.
4 – Ron Brown – Secretary of Commerce and former DNC Chairman. Reported to have died by impact in a plane crash. A pathologist close to the investigation reported that there was a hole in the top of Brown’s skull resembling a gunshot wound. At the time of his death Brown was being investigated, and spoke publicly of his willingness to cut a deal with prosecutors. The rest of the people on the plane also died. A few days later the air Traffic controller commited suicide.
5 – C. Victor Raiser, II – Raiser, a major player in the Clinton fund raising organization died in a private plane crash in July 1992.
6 – Paul Tulley – Democratic National Committee Political Director found dead in a hotel room in Little Rock , September 1992. Described by Clinton as a “dear friend and trusted advisor”.
7 – Ed Willey – Clinton fundraiser, found dead November 1993 deep in the woods in VA of a gunshot wound to the head. Ruled a suicide. Ed Willey died on the same day his wife Kathleen Willey claimed Bill Clinton groped her in the oval office in the White House. Ed Willey was involved in several Clinton fund raising events.
8 – Jerry Parks – Head of Clinton’s gubernatorial security team in Little Rock .. Gunned down in his car at a deserted intersection outside Little Rock Park’s son said his father was building a dossier on Clinton He allegedly threatened to reveal this information. After he died the files were mysteriously removed from his house. by whom
9 – James Bunch – Died from a gunshot suicide. It was reported that he had a “Black Book” of people which contained names of influential people who visited prostitutes in Texas and Arkansas
10 – James Wilson – Was found dead in May 1993 from an apparent hanging suicide. He was reported to have ties to Whitewater..
11 – Kathy Ferguson – Ex-wife of Arkansas Trooper Danny Ferguson, was found dead in May 1994, in her living room with a gunshot to her head. It was ruled a suicide even though there were several packed suitcases, as if she were going somewhere. Danny Ferguson was a co-defendant along with Bill Clinton in the Paula Jones lawsuit Kathy Ferguson was a possible corroborating witness for Paula Jones.
12 – Bill Shelton – Arkansas State Trooper and fiancee of Kathy Ferguson. Critical of the suicide ruling of his fiancee, he was found dead in June, 1994 of a gunshot wound also ruled a suicide at the grave site of his fiancee.
13 – Gandy Baugh – Attorney for Clinton’s friend Dan Lassater, died by jumping out a window of a tall building January, 1994. His client was a convicted drug distributor.
14 – Florence Martin – Accountant & sub-contractor for the CIA, was related to the Barry Seal, Mena, Arkansas, airport drug smuggling case. He died of three gunshot wounds.
15 – Suzanne Coleman – Reportedly had an affair with Clinton when he was Arkansas Attorney General. Died of a gunshot wound to the back of the head, ruled a suicide. Was pregnant at the time of her death.
16 – Paula Grober – Clinton’s speech interpreter for the deaf from 1978 until her death December 9, 1992. She died in a one car accident.
17 – Danny Casolaro – Investigative reporter. Investigating Mena Airport and Arkansas Development Finance Authority. He slit his wrists, apparently, in the middle of his investigation.
18 – Paul Wilcher – Attorney investigating corruption at Mena Airport with Casolaro and the 1980 “October Surprise” was found dead on a toilet June 22, 1993, in his Washington DC apartment. Had delivered a report to Janet Reno 3 weeks before his death.
19 – Jon Parnell Walker – Whitewater investigator for Resolution Trust Corp. Jumped to his death from his Arlington , Virginia apartment balcony August 15, 1993. He was investigating the Morgan Guaranty scandal.
20 – Barbara Wise – Commerce Department staffer. Worked closely with Ron Brown and John Huang. Cause of death unknown. Died November 29, 1996. Her bruised, nude body was found locked in her office at the Department of Commerce.
21 – Charles Meissner – Assistant Secretary of Commerce who gave John Huang special security clearance, died shortly thereafter in a small plane crash.
22 – Dr. Stanley Heard – Chairman of the National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee died with his attorney Steve Dickson in a small plane crash. Dr. Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton ‘s advisory council personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather and brother.
23 – Barry Seal – Drug running TWA pilot out of Mena Arkansas, death was no accident.
24 – Johnny Lawhorn, Jr. – Mechanic, found a check made out to Bill Clinton in the trunk of a car left at his repair shop. He was found dead after his car had hit a utility pole.
25 – Stanley Huggins – Investigated Madison Guaranty. His death was a purported suicide and his report was never released.
26 – Hershell Friday – Attorney and Clinton fundraiser died March 1, 1994, when his plane exploded.
27 – Kevin Ives & Don Henry – Known as “The boys on the track” case. Reports say the boys may have stumbled upon the Mena Arkansas airport drug operation. A controversial case, the initial report of death said, due to falling asleep on railroad tracks. Later reports claim the 2 boys had been slain before being placed on the tracks. Many linked to the case died before their testimony could come before a Grand Jury.
THE FOLLOWING PERSONS HAD INFORMATION ON THE IVES – HENRY CASE:
28 – Keith Coney – Died when his motorcycle slammed into the back of a truck, 7/88.
29 – Keith McMaskle – Died, stabbed 113 times, Nov, 1988
30 – Gregory Collins – Died from a gunshot wound January 1989.
31 – Jeff Rhodes – He was shot, mutilated and found burned in a trash dump in April 1989.
3 2 – James Milan – Found decapitated. However, the Coroner ruled his death was due to natural causes”.
33 – Jordan Kettleson – Was found shot to death in the front seat of his pickup truck in June 1990.
34 – Richard Winters – A suspect in the Ives/Henry deaths. He was killed in a set-up robbery July 1989.
THE FOLLOWING CLINTON BODYGUARDS ARE DEAD:
36 – Major William S. Barkley, Jr.
37 – Captain Scott J . Reynolds
38 – Sgt. Brian Hanley
39 – Sgt. Tim Sabel
40 – Major General William Robertson
41 – Col. William Densberger
42 – Col. Robert Kelly
43 – Spec. Gary Rhodes
44 – Steve Willis
45 – Robert Williams
46 – Conway LeBleu
47 – Todd McKeehan
Miscellaneous Deaths and NEAR MISSES:
Stanley Heard, Chairman, National Chiropractic Health Care Advisory Committee
Steve Dickson, – Counsel to Mr. Heard
died: 9/10/93
Both died in a plane crash outside Dulles airport, after their aircraft, rented after Heard’s personal craft developed troubles, crashed while attempting an emergency landing after reporting a fire on board. Let’s repeat that. They took off in a plane. It developed problems. They got it back to the airport. They rented a new plane. They took off in the new rented plane and IT developed a problem. On the way back to the airport it crashed. – Heard, in addition to serving on Clinton’s advisory council, also personally treated Clinton’s mother, stepfather, and brother.
Carlos Ghigliotti, Thermal Imaging Expert
Carlos Ghigliotti: 42, was found dead in his home just outside of Washington D.C. on April 28, 2000. There was no sign of a break-in or struggle at the firm of Infrared Technology where the badly decomposed body of Ghigliotti was found. Ghigliotti had not been seen for several weeks.
Ghigliotti, a thermal imaging analyst hired by the House Government Reform Committee to review tape of the siege, said he determined the FBI fired shots on April 19, 1993. The FBI has explained the light bursts on infrared footage as reflections of sun rays on shards of glass or other debris that littered the scene.
Don Adams
Died Jan 7 1997
Long before Whitewater’s land flips made the Clinton’s circle of friends rich, many of the same players had been involved in a similar land swindle in Branson. Don Adams was a lawyer in Arkansas who got involved trying to help the people who were being swindled out of their life savings.
Jim Wilhite, Vice Chairman, Arkla, Inc.
died: 12/21/92 – Died in a one-person skiing accident. – Wilhite had extensive ties with Clinton and Mack McLarty, with whom he visited by telephone just hours before his death.
Theodore Williams, Jr., Bettie Currie’s brother.
died: 12/16/97 – Traffic accident.
A passing car hit the brother of Presidential Secretary Betty Currie after his own car had somehow run off the road. Bill Clinton called Monica Lewinsky at 2:00 AM the next morning to tell her of the death and alert Monica that her named appeared on the Paula Jones witness list. Betty’s brother had also been beaten shortly before Betty testified in a previous matter.
Also see the INSLAW deaths:
Larry Guerrin
Was killed in February 1987 while investigating the INSLAW case.
Alan Standorf
An employee of the National Security Agency in electronic intelligence. Standorf was a source of information for Danny Casalaro who was investigating INSLAW, BCCI, etc. Standorf’s body was found in the backseat of a car at Washington National Airport on Jan 31, 1991.
Dennis Eisman
An attorney with information on INSLAW. Eisman was found shot to death on April 5, 1991.
Danny Casalaro
Danny was a free-lance reporter and writer who was investigating the “October Surprise”, INSLAW and BCCI. Danny was found dead in a bathtub in a Sheraton Hotel room in Martinsburg, Virginia. Danny was staying at the hotel while keeping appointments in the DC area pertinent to his investigation. He was found with his wrists slashed. At least one, and possibly both of his wrists were cut 10 times. All of his research materials were missing and have never been recovered.
Ian Spiro
Spiro had supporting documentation for grand jury proceedings on the INSLAW case. His wife and 3 children were found murdered on November 1, 1992 in their home. The all died of gunshot wounds to the head. Ian’s body was found several days later in a parked car in the Borego Desert. Cause of death? The ingestion of cyanide. Declared a murder/suicide.
Wounded or attempted murder:
Gary Johnson
Not dead, but beaten near death and left for dead. Had videotapes of Clinton entering Gennifer Flowers’ apartment. His tapes were taken.
Dennis Patrick
Court clerk. Had millions of dollars laundered through his account at Lassater & Co without his knowledge. Four attempts on his life.
L.J. Davis
Reporter investigating Clinton scandals. Attacked at his hotel room in Little Rock. His notes were stolen.
Larry Nichols
Former official at ADFA and author of “The Clinton Chronicles.” The man who broke many of the Clinton scandal stories. Several attempts on his life.
Russel Welch
Infected with military grade anthrax.
Charles Wilbourne Miller
Died 1/12/99. Vice President and Board Member for Alltel, the computer company that wrote the White House “Big Brother” computer system. Found shot to death with two guns. Multiple shots had been fired. Declared a suicide.
Gordon Matteson
Died 5/15/97. Clinton associate. Shot in the head. Declared a suicide.
David Drye
Died 8/1999. Pat Matrisciana, owner of “Jeremiah Films” (which produces such vides asThe Clinton Chronicles), and David Drye planned a trip to Washington DC by Private plane. At the last second, pat had to cancel and David left without him, dying when the plane crashed.
Sadly, the list goes on……
Quite an impressive list! Let the public become aware of what happens to friends of the Clintons!
HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT? …SURELY YOU JEST!!






Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
However, even the briefest of checking online shows that the first few items are legit (year, person, death). It's a LONG list! And what would count as "proof of truth" for each item?
OK, this should seem obvious, but the name and year of death for each individual is not what the list is about, so affirming that information does nothing. Right? The list is really about the claimed connection with those persons' death and some alleged Clinton influence that prompted those deaths. Prove that and you have some list.

One big problem with the list just at arm's length is that the deaths supposedly were intended to prevent disclosure of some event that would bring the Clintons' downfall. But given that each of the events went public and were never proven, you have to think the person in charge with making these people unavailable did a really poor job. Either that or the deaths had nothing to do with disclosure of the events.

For the record, since the list appears to suggest a conspiracy between the Clintons and the deaths, which would amount to a criminal act, the burden of proof would be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Good luck.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
**madbolter f*#ked a goat in 2011.**

Prove it didn't happen!

There is a vast difference in specificity between that obviously spurious accusation and the items that appear in the list. Specificity and the lack thereof are the telling features of serious vs. spurious accusations.

This also goes to Norton's claim that "any associate" (ate with, sang a song with, etc.) we might have had could be equivalent to the people on the list.

NO to both arguments.

The list does not spuriously say: "The Clintons knew a guy, and he died. The Clintons knew some other woman, and she died." Such "accusations" would be akin to your "madbolter f*#ked a goat in 2011" assertion.

But the list instead seriously states: "James McDougal, a Clinton partner in the Whitewater project, a project that was being investigated by Kenneth Starr, with McDougal being a key witness in that investigation, died of an apparent heart attack while imprisoned."

There is no way correlate that sort of specificity with "madbolter f*#ked a goat in 2011."

Beyond specificity, another key principle concerns the subject/accused relation. The list is not saying anything like "madbolter [the accused] f*#ked [what the accused is accused of] a goat [the subject] in 2011. The list is not saying: "Bill Clinton [accused] arranged to have James McDougal [subject] killed [what the accused is accused of] in prison and made to look like a heart attack."

Your spurious subject/accused relation lacks a key component: the accuser. Are you the accuser? Is some friend of yours the accuser, and you are merely repeating what he said?

A key aspect of what makes "your accusation" spurious is that there is no reason to presume that YOU have any knowledge of the subject/accused relation at all. Thus, there is a much stronger burden of proof upon you. YOU have to somehow "get related" to the subject/accused.

You need to add a LOT to the accusation to have it rise to a level worth contemplating: "I was present at a gay bar in Stockton, California in March of 2011 with some 'friends' of mine, and I saw madbolter there also. What I immediately noted was that madbolter didn't have any human friends there, but he had apparently brought in a small herd of goats with him. We were all getting pretty drunk, hot, and bothered, but madbolter kept to himself and his goats. I thought he was cute, so I kept my eye on him and even tried to flirt with him repeatedly, but he only had eyes for his goats. Eventually, 'hot and bothered' turned into an orgy. Several of us tried to pull madbolter in, but he had his own mini-orgy with the goats. Oh, and I know madbolter by sight because I've climbed with him repeatedly."

NOW you've got a prima facie reason for somebody to think that you know something about the subject/accused relation. And NOW you've also got specificity that madbolter can respond to: "This goofball doesn't know what he's talking about. He's never climbed with me, and he doesn't know me. He's never even been ON the climb he is critiquing...." Oops, wrong response context.... "I've never been into the bar he references, and in March of 2011 I was in Florida, not even in the state to which he refers."

Your goat "accusation" asserts a subject/accused relation but is obviously specious because it lack specificity AND it lacks any reason to suppose that you know anything about the subject, the accused, or any possible relation they may have had. As stated, your "accusation" lacks an accuser as well as any reason to think that the accuser knows anything.

By contrast, the list does not make any subject/accused relation claims beyond "knew" or "was associated with in this context." Those are all quite specific, so they are not spurious, and in fact, it appears to me that the relations themselves are public-knowledge, having been widely reported in many national media contexts. Moreover, there are no "accusations" in the list; the list simply states associations and events. There are no "accused verbs," so no "subject/accused" relations: "The Clintons did this and this to the subject."

The sweeping innuendo in the list is vague, something like: Knowing the Clintons can be hazardous to your health and life. There, the sheer length of the list, coupled with the closeness of the associations, goes far beyond "just anybody I might have had a drink with." No, it is instead "dear friends," business partners, and so forth are who turn up dead. Lots and lots of them.

Well, okay, the Clintons "know" a lot of people. But now, in such a response you are already accepting the prima facie credibility of the list. In this response you are just arguing that the list of deaths is a small proportion of the total number of comparably-closely-related people that the Clintons know. You are thereby appealing to something like actuarial tables to say something like: "If you are comparably-closely-related to 10,000 people, as the Clintons are, then the number of deaths among them that you see on this list coheres with the expected death rate among such a group of people."

NONE of this in any sense correlates with "madbolter f*#ked a goat in 2011."
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Apr 24, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
One big problem with the list just at arm's length is that the deaths supposedly were intended to prevent disclosure of some event that would bring the Clintons' downfall. But given that each of the events went public and were never proven, you have to think the person in charge with making these people unavailable did a really poor job.

It never works like you say.

Gangsters, for example, don't kill off people willy-nilly in "proactive" mode to keep accusations from ever emerging in the first place. Instead, they kill off witnesses and potential plea-bargains once there is a genuine threat.

If the Clintons were indeed involved in behaviors they hoped would never see the light of day, what they would not do is start killing off associates in preemptive fashion! First, such preemptive strikes would likely call attention to relations better left undisturbed, thereby triggering investigations that might (hopefully would) not ever be discovered. Second, even the most callous (that are still sane) among us don't kill people willy-nilly. Even though willing to commit murder invariably need a stronger motivation than "vaguely possible threat."

So, "the person in charge with making these people unavailable" actually did exactly the job one would expect in such a scenario: the actual threat was "made unavailable" in the context of a situation that singled that person out AS the actual threat.
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