Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
|
Hey CornSugar,
Prove me wrong.
I'll be waiting for a long, long time. But please get after it. You might learn something.
Edit:
Here I'll even help you in your quest . . .
Men of Science, Men of GOD: Great Scientists Who Believed the Bible
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/handle-buy-box/ref=dp_start-bbf_1_glance
Oh, and by the way, you still don't have a grasp on the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I suggest you read it and learn it. You will benefit greatly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights
Further Edit:
I'm an electronics engineer. Professional. Everyone of his posts on an electrical power thread were bullsh#t. Bits of truth (culled from Wikipedia) peppered with outlandish out of this world bullsh#t. He missed his true calling which was to work for the National Enquirer tabloid.
Classic. You really make me laugh HFCS. Truth = BS?
What a public melt down.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
|
I'm an electronics engineer. Professional. Every one of his posts on an electrical power thread was bullsh#t. Bits of truth (culled from Wikipedia, etc.) peppered with outlandish out of this world bullsh#t, irrelevant bullsh#t. Truly, the man missed his true calling which was to work for the National Enquirer tabloid. Or spin department of a shameless corporation.
Easy to extrapolate from a cold, hard, fact-based thread (the electrical thread) to the other more "complicated" threads (bible code, 9/11 conspiracy, god, etc) to conclude how chock-full of bullsh#t, nutzo, his posts are. -A pathetic waste of time.
Oh, well, such is the internet.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 01:33pm PT
|
Klimmer
his best estimate for the end of our dispensation of time would be 2060 AD.
this was not an estimate of when it would happen, it was a lower limit... Newton didn't believe in interpreting the Bible that way, which is why he did the calculation, to show that the people in his time were making idiotic statements... if he were around today, he'd be similarly moved to show that extracting those exact dates from the Bible are absurd...
"This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail."- I. Newton
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
|
In Newton's day the church held considerable sway over English secular affairs and Newton's professorship at Cambridge would have subjected him to that influence.
Unlike the advanced state of the church today, acknowleging as it does the absolutely essential importance of separation of church and state, in that day the church busied itself forcefully in nearly all issues, public and private.
We have found a bit of research published out of Cambridge University and funded by the Research Council of Canada. It is excerpted below.
An observation before we get to the excerpt:
It is wonderful to believe in certainty.
Unfortunately, in this world, certainty can be found only in minds
that find uncertainty
troublesome.
The report:
http://www.isaac-newton.org/heretic.pdf
Isaac Newton, heretic : the strategies of a
Nicodemite*
S T E P H E N D. S N O B E L E N
Department of History and Philosophy of Science, University of Cambridge, Free School Lane, Cambridge
CB2 3RH.
A lady asked the famous Lord Shaftesbury what religion he was of. He answered the religion of wise men. She asked, what was that ? He answered, wise men never tell.
Diary of Viscount Percival (1730), i, 113
N E W T O N A S H E R E T I C
Isaac Newton was a heretic. But like Nicodemus, the secret disciple of Jesus, he never made a public declaration of his private faith – which the orthodox would have deemed extremely radical. He hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs.
His one-time follower William Whiston attributed his policy of silence to simple, human fear and there must be some truth in this. Every day as a public figure (Lucasian Professor, Warden – then Master – of the Mint, President of the Royal Society) and as the figurehead of British natural philosophy, Newton must have felt the tension of outwardly conforming to the Anglican Church, while inwardly denying much of its faith and practice. He was restricted by heresy laws, religious tests and the formidable opposition of public opinion.
Heretics were seen as religiously subversive, socially dangerous and even morally debased.
Moreover, the positions he enjoyed were dependent on public manifestations of religious and social orderliness. Sir Isaac had a lot to lose. Yet he knew the scriptural injunctions against hiding one’s light under a bushel. Newton the believer was thus faced with the need to develop a modus vivendi whereby he could work within legal and social structures while fulfilling the command to shine in a dark world.
This paper recovers and assesses his strategies for reconciling these conflicting dynamics and, in so doing, will shed light on both the nature of Newton’s faith and his agenda for natural philosophy.
As this study attempts to reconstruct Newton’s private and public religious worlds, it has been necessary to do three things. First, I have demanded more of Newton’s manuscripts by expanding the range of theological issues normally considered and re- contextualizing his beliefs against the backdrop of contemporary radical theologies. I also show that the religious ideals expressed in his manuscripts often match his actions.
Second, I have made cautious use of the surviving oral tradition, personal written accounts and evidence of rumour-mongering. Much of this material is used here for the first time and its value in fleshing out Newton’s religious crises and entanglements will become apparent below. Finally, I have employed a sociology of heresy as an explanatory tool for Newton’s actions.
Taken together, these dynamics help reveal why Newton in public differed so much from Newton in private. While the vicissitudes of time and the nature of such dealings have rendered Newton’s heretical private life obscure and largely invisible, the evidence presented in this paper will allow us to draw back the curtain a little further on the heterodox conversaziones, clandestine networks, private manuscripts, coded writing and orthodox simulation that comprised the strategies of a Nicodemite…………………..
Research was made possible through a Social
Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada Doctoral Fellowship, a Queen Elizabeth II British Columbia Centennial Scholarship and the British Council.
*There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews : the same came to Jesus by night ...
John 3 : 1–2
|
|
dfrost7
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
|
JDF,
Ravi, as C.S. Lewis, was an atheist, prior to coming to faith, in Jesus
Christ. If you want to read a book, very worth your time, "Mere Christianity", by C.S. Lewis, will answer some of these questions.
Ravi is speaking, in very basic terms, of the reason many of us have come to faith in God. For every believer, you are looking at a once non-believer. Not something we 'grew up' with. We made a cognitive choice. A well considered choice.
Here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJmsK2s0uI&feature=related
For me, the problem of science, is that it gathers together data after the fact and makes decisions/conclusions based on a tiny, tiny fraction of things there are to know. That is, what we do know, regarding the universe, could be recorded on the head of a pin. Most important questions are still unanswered by science. Science requires a monolithic faith to fill in all the blanks. It is still after-the-fact. With what little we know, that is not theory, we can't project or duplicate created from uncreated.
I love the discussions you and others bring to the forum. Though there are comments that dismiss, it is sometimes, because the answer, that there is a God, requires something. It is profoundly scary to consider the existence of an actual, living GOD.
It is interesting, the atheistis I know, who have come to faith, are convinced of these things beyond most people.
Yes, scientists believe. It's just turning your head to miss that. Even if you're not a person of faith, you run into them every day. I do.
For this reason, that if there is a living GOD, if there is good and evil, this requires something of every individual on earth. It is why people who say they don't believe, still need to adopt a philosophy, of some sort. The need to explain the unexplained still gnaws.
It's weird, most of my closest friends are atheists, or cynics. This is, sometimes, the first thing you must come to terms with. Which might you be?
Regardless, atheists who come to faith, are amazing. They have dealt with and asked the HARD questions. Most people are too chicken to even ask. For this, I have great respect.
Edit/p.s.
No, I am not a right-winger. No, no, no.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
|
"For me, the problem of science, is that it gathers together data after the fact and makes decisions/conclusions based on a tiny, tiny fraction of things there are to know. That is, what we do know, regarding the universe, could be recorded on the head of a pin. Most important questions are still unanswered by science. Science requires a monolithic faith to fill in all the blanks. It is still after-the-fact. With what little we know, that is not theory, we can't project or duplicate created from uncreated."
Interesting. May I ask. What might "before the fact" data look like?
Data regarding an event in the future?
And
"Science requires a monolithic faith to fill in all the blanks."
Here we are using "faith" to mean acceptance of an absolute truth absent confirmation.
How do you use the word?
If there is one thing, just one thing science does not do it is "fill in all the blanks". Indeed it does not "fill" irrevocably, any blanks at all.
Every model we have for every natural phenomenon came about by improving older models.
Our understanding is growing.
Nothing is "filled in".
Ever
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
|
Ed wrote: "Reproducing subjective "states of mind" is possible and documented, the consequence of using various types of drugs, the entering of a meditative state, etc... but we have physiological understanding of these states, and do not interpret, on a scientific level, any deeper significance to these states, they are the reaction of the "mechanical" brain to the stimulus, and the experience is a result of this reaction."
I believe that so long as you're focused on "states of mind," subjective experience, feelings, beliefs, and so forth, every so-called "spiritual" encounter will be relegated to quantifiable "stuff" that indeed is mechanically produced by the evolved "meat" brain. But as Karl pointed out, to believe that this is the whole shooting match is to bet against yourself.
JL
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
|
Ed,
I can agree with you.
In the study of the End Times, Eschatology, people from nearly day one since prophecies have fore-told the end of time, have thought that the end is immanently upon us. Newton was proving the fact that certain things have to occur before the End Time draws near. First A, then B, then C etc. before Z occurs.
And those who are very versed in Eschatology today, know this to be very true. Jesus said (paraphrasing) "No man can know the hour or the day," but he didn't say we couldn't know the general period of time, just not specifically. He asked us to watch and be ready. Jesus compared our ability to look at the sky (atmospheric conditions) and being able to predict the weather fairly accurately; like-wise we should be able to look at the signs of the time and know the prophecies intimately so we will not be fooled and will be ready.
One of the most gifted men I know today in the study of Eschatology, is Tim McHyde, "Escape All These Things." I don't agree with him on everything, I'm a Theistic Evolutionist, but he knows Bible Prophecy very, very well. He is turning a lot of heads in Christendom -- the Christian Community. He is a true man of GOD.
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/planet-x-nibiru-wormwood.htm
Newton was very devout in his personal faith. He wrote a great deal about GOD, faith, the Bible, as they have now recently discovered. True he hid this often. But then again he didn't disclose his scientific discoveries until he was pressed to do so either. Newton was a very private man.
Jstan,
Yes, he even held off publishing the book I mentioned that you can now purchase, until after his death. Pretty smart of him to do so.
DFrost7,
Thanks. Didn't know much about Ravi Zacharias. Thanks for sharing that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
|
John:
I very much doubt Ed "believes that is the whole shooting match."
You are speaking for Ed in that sentence by implication. Can't do that.
I rather expect he has not seen any good data saying there is something else.
But that is just an expectation. I can't speak for Ed either.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
|
Did you know you could cut the optic nerve, stimulate it with electricity (e.g., 4ms "single shot" pulses at 5V) and see flashes of light? or cut the auditory nerve, stimulate it with these same pulses and hear crackles and pops? Pretty telling. Pretty supportive, too. For brain as mind machine. For brain as information processor. For brain as body controller.
If there ever comes a day in American culture when these juicy facts are ever common knowledge, known by 15 out of 20 people instead of 1 out of 20 people, it would signify a new era in thinking about ourselves, our nature, our mental lives.
Sure would like to live long enough to see it.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
|
Actually a fascinating subject. Everyone has seem the exercises with sentences having an extra "the". We don't even see it. Google may not be the first to base decisions on what is expected because of past history.
The brain does fill in blanks in images and quite a lot is known about that. Distributed image processing is also done. Some reduction of data occurs on the focal plane, the retina and further processing is already done before the image gets to the higher brain functions. That way we can throw a spear as soon as motion is detected and without taking time to make a decision. Very fast processing when motion is seen.
Edit:
Not specifically. But send me a link.
Looking for your link I came across Mary Newsome in neuropsychology. How things like brain damage can affect decision making. Incredible new frontiers everywhere you look!
I would plead that this is pretty common on ST.
But I won't.
But you can still send me the link.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
|
Are you referring to the the experiments of Baylor and Newsome?
Anybody catch the piece on CBS Sunday morning this last weekend on the artist who rendered facial portraits out of push pins? Realistic portraits (seen from, say, 20' away) made from just four colors: red, blue, yellow, black. From these four, the brain produces all the colors, including tan, brown, white.
Same with the dots of a color tv monitor, of course, also Impressionist paintings. The "mind machine" is truly astonishing. Someday we will know how the brain does it, and the people of this age, of a different attitude, will think it cool- cool phenomenon, cool knowledge.
EDIT
jstan- I was playin'. Read that first sentence again. SLOWLY.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
|
And I know a LOT more Atheists who saw the light of rational intelligence and "converted" from being Christians when they finally put aside their childhood fears.
YOU believe simply because it comforts you to do so.
Go ahead and do so, but leave your preaching to yourself.
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
|
Just spent three days of glorious climbing at Lover's Leap: sunlight...bird song...clean granite...rushing water...wind in trees...aesthetic climbing...conversations with friends...joy in being alive...
(arrived home and revisited this thread to realize that all weekend i didn't have even a single thought about the purpose of life, god, oil spills, Christ, death, bible, good and evil, global problems...)
...does that mean my head was in the sand??
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
|
"Someday we will know how the brain does it"
Someday?
It's already been known for billions of years.
Use the direct method instead ....
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
|
dfrost- "not something we 'grew up' with"
To support this...
About five years ago the Billy Graham Assoc. published the results of an ongoing poll that was initiated in the first quarter of the last century @1925, that came up with this statistic(among others): Among children raised in the church from youth, 90% never return to church after the age of 18!
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
|
Jstan wrote:
John:
I very much doubt Ed "believes that is the whole shooting match."
You are speaking for Ed in that sentence by implication. Can't do that.
I rather expect he has not seen any good data saying there is something else.
-
I think we've sort of beat this into the ground but here goes any way.
The problem with the "data" approach you recommend is that while this works wonderfully for quantifiable "stuff," it won't take you beyond it. (In fact it won't even take you to into qalia, or the most fundamental aspect of human existence). That's not to say you cannot go beyond the quantifiable, but so long as your awareness is locked onto a "state" or a feeling, you're still in sensate terrain.
Kant and many others would insist you cannot experience the ding an sich, or the-thing-as-such, that all you can experience are subjective states. Many of the greatest minds in history have believed as much, so you have some very erudite company.
JL
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
|
Norton!
Regarding your "LOT more ATHEIST" converts...
It is a RELATIONSHIP Norton, as strong as any that exists in the material world...even stronger. They may have had a very strong head knowledge of Jesus Christ, but they did not have a personal/spiritual knowledge/relationship of Him.
|
|
go-B
climber
In God We Trust
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
|
http://www.oneplace.com/player/thru-the-bible-with-j-vernon-mcgee/
Welcome to Thru the Bible
Thru the Bible is a 30-minute Bible study radio program that takes the listener through the entire Bible in just 5 years, going back and forth between the Old and New Testaments. This Bible study program has been aired on radio stations in the U.S. since 1967, and is now being aired in over 200 countries around the globe.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!