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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2006 - 09:31pm PT
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Am I missing something. Is it logical to believe in something that cannot be proved?
Why do you believe in God?
JDF
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
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But what is bleak.
So what if at death our whole existence ends.
Is that a big deal?
JDF
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CorporateDog
climber
Middle California
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Sep 30, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
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The desperately sincere pyschological craving for a feeling that someone cares about them.
Or fear.
Speaks to the sad and pitiful void within humanity at large.
Personally, I lean towards the "opiate of the masses" opinion of religion as societal control.
Religion may well have sprung from a sincere proto-human desire for explanation of an amazing world - but a few thousand years of dubious human interference has given us a factuous, divisive, profiteering perversion that enslaves more than enlightens.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 30, 2006 - 09:54pm PT
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Who else to you ask for help when you have just pulled your three year old from the deep end of the pool and he's not breathing; or who else do you talk to when you have just been diagonsed with terminal cancer; who do you call out to as you are riding in the ambulance with the love of your life who has just suffered severe head trauma?
elcapfool --- you are NO fool!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 30, 2006 - 10:07pm PT
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Because it makes so many other things fall into place.
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CorporateDog
climber
Middle California
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Sep 30, 2006 - 10:24pm PT
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God?
I really like the idea of god as Alanis Morrisette in Dogma playing skeeball and turning cartwheels in the flowers. The Greeks probably had the best take on this idea.
More likely is that we are sentient probes emitted by a central conscious energy to "live" on Earth in order to absorb as many experiences and data inputs as possible. When you "die" - you report back and download.
I've been told that the central entity really gets pissed at couch potatoes and career Walmart employees.
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John Barleycorn
climber
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Sep 30, 2006 - 10:25pm PT
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because it always gives you one last chance to be saved from whatever you're praying to be saved from. be that finishing the last three pitches in a lightning storm or getting through traffic to be on time for a meeting. People pray to god about everything they feel they don't have control over and hope god will save them. i think people should spend more time believing in themselves.
jb
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa Mexico
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Sep 30, 2006 - 10:39pm PT
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I called his name the last time that red light showed up in my rear view mirror.....it was a miracle I blew a 0.00 when I should have broke a record. or maybe it turned over ?
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andanother
climber
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Sep 30, 2006 - 10:54pm PT
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because people don't like to take responsibility for their own actions.
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CorporateDog
climber
Middle California
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Sep 30, 2006 - 10:56pm PT
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Senor DeFuca - the question to ask is whether a god exists BECAUSE we are here in its grace, or, does a god exist BECAUSE the collective "we" believes in the concept.
To the ancients, their gods were as real to them as our dieties are today. Yet, when theose ancient cultures died - did not their gods die with them?
Given a few centuries - I would not be suprised to find the future humans worshipping some other form of supreme being with Jesus, Yahweh, Muhammed, etc only to be found in history books somewhere between Ashtar and Zeus.
Anything is real if enough people believe it to be so.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 30, 2006 - 10:58pm PT
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NOT TRUE Corpdog
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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Sep 30, 2006 - 11:02pm PT
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"I called his name the last time that red light showed up in my rear view mirror.....it was a miracle I blew a 0.00 when I should have broke a record. or maybe it turned over ? "
Stevo,
after witnessing more than a couple of your insane runnouts in Toulomne I'd say you definitely have someone watching out for you brother!
--wayne
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 30, 2006 - 11:04pm PT
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i don't believe in anything.
i find belief just gets in the way.
i just do stuff.
no offense intented towards god or true believers.
(mobius)
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 30, 2006 - 11:12pm PT
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You gotta believe in that Rocky Mountain high, don't ya Roy?
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CorporateDog
climber
Middle California
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Sep 30, 2006 - 11:15pm PT
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Werner - of COURSE everything I say is NOT TRUE...to someone.
Opinion creates bias which begats belief which converts to truth then finally to dogma. It is a closed loop.
Ideas, on the other hand, allow one to explore any number of possibilities.
Is not "inifinty" the root concept of divinity?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2006 - 11:30pm PT
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Some events can seem like Magic or a God stepped in and saved the day. But what about all the kids that drown in the pools.
The more I study Buddhism the more I like it.
The Buddha said we do not even have a soul. I really like the idea of not having a soul.
JDF
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Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
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Sep 30, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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I trust in God becasue I believe that there are good reasons for belief that God exists, and that he will hold me accountable for the life He gave me. One being that human beings have innate sense of right or wrong (that they ought to do something, or not something in a given situation). Call that your consciousness of your soul or whatever you like. I think God is the best, logical explanation for where that actually came from in human beings. If God doesn't exist, then where does this sense of morality come from. It might be the case we feel something we call guilt because we actually are guilty, guilty before God and his standards (example, eveyone has broken at least some, probably most are all of the 10 commandments-myself included).But I think we have all felt guilt and shame for one reason or another in our lives. Why do we have that? I believe that God gave us that for a reason. Anyways, all you CA guys and gals missed a beautiful 80 deg day in Eldo today after the 2 feet of snow in mountains from a few days back. Cheers, AK!
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Sep 30, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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You'd probably like what Dawkins has to say even more. Buddhism contains a lot of valid psychology but it still appeals to mystical mumbo-jumbo, largely because that's what uneducated people like. Rituals, smoke and mirrors, and subservience to the will of an all-knowing priesthood provide a lot of mental stability in a world that seems otherwise incomprehensible.
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WBraun
climber
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hehehe
You guys spend all your time trying to get rid of God.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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In God I do believe.
And, that might be a shocker.
But it gives me much relief,
Because I climb with Locker.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Because they don't have anything better to do.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Here's something I wrote a while back. I think it applies
The question isn't so much "Is there a God?". Even according to physics, the world is all composed of the same energy. One thing comprises us all. You could call that God, if you can't stomach an old man in the sky. The question is the nature of that Reality. It is what it is, regardless of what we think about it. No matter how you slice it, the world is not as we see it.
and whatever we believe, we don't believe it very often. Most of the time we are living, eating, sleeping and otherwise separated from our concepts and ideas. It's who we are in our hearts that we carry around with us constantly.
My experience is that God is a supreme conscious intelligence and that our essential nature, our soul, is also consciousness. Thus we are created in the image of God.
No faith is required for this. Quiet your mind utterly and be deep inside yourself and you will see for yourself. Thus, if you seek (honestly and without prejudging the results) you will find. Beyond your changing mind, beliefs and concepts, you are a pure awareness that is inherently loving peaceful and fulfilled.
I've seen the light in folks from all religions, all countries, and those without religion as well. Dogma doesn't save anyone. God doesn't know what religion you are. God sees directly to the heart.
Peace
karl
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jdub
Trad climber
Atascadero
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Sit in Yosemite, take a look around, I mean really look. Then tell me that pressure, heat, time, glaciers, and whatever else occurs naturally is the only explanation here. Whatever you believe in it sure seems as though there has to be some sort of help? Or does s%@* really just happen?
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brett kassell
Trad climber
san jose, ca
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why do so many people believe in god?
take a climb up:
any climb in yosemite and you will know, my brohaminus
maybe not, but if you are ever very close to death, you will know. me, i see god in every locker hand jam i get in my life.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Buddhists believe in a mind stream that continues on for life after life. They do not believe in one creator god. We do believe in many higher powers. You can call them gods and you can ask them to help you but you never submit yourself to them. Take Tara for example, she is there to protect you from all your fears but she never asks you for anything. So you offer her praise. All buddhist higher powers will help you through your mind stream but wont demand anything from you. We all come into existence through interdependent causes and conditions.
rw-edit-karl baba is on to this
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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" Is it logical to believe in something that cannot be proved?"
Can anything be proved using logic? Logic, a sequential evolution of human thought, is imperfect simply because it cannot prove all truths. Yet, mortals attempt logic, believing it their best tool in divining knowledge of the universe around them. Decide for yourself the value of human logic. But this is the "logical" (cosmological and ontological) argument for the existence of God:
The cosmological argument takes the existence of the universe to entail the existence of a being that created it. It does so based on the fact that the universe had a beginning. There must, the first cause argument says, be something that caused that beginning, a "first cause" of the universe.
The universe consists of a series of events stretched across time in a long causal chain. Each one of these events is the cause of the event that comes after it, and the effect of the event that comes before it. The world as it is came from the world as it was, which came from the world as it was before.
If we trace this series of events back in time, then what do we find? There seem, at first glance, to be two possibilities: either we eventually reach the first event in the series, the cause at the beginning of the universe that set everything going, or there is no first event in the series and the past stretches back into infinity.
The first cause argument tells us that the second of these is not possible, that the past cannot stretch back into infinity but rather must have a beginning. The argument then proceeds by suggesting that if the universe has a beginning then there must be something outside it that brought it into existence.
This being outside the universe, this Creator, the first cause argument tells us, is God.
If I told you that I had just counted down from infinity to zero, starting with “infinity minus zero” and carrying on until I reached “infinite minus infinity, i.e zero”, then you would know that this claim is false. Just as it is impossible to count up from zero to infinity, so it is impossible to count down from infinity to zero. If I had started counting down from infinity and kept going, then I would still be counting to this day; I would not have finished. My claim to have counted down from infinity to zero must be false. This is because it is impossible to traverse an infinite series.
The idea that the universe has an infinite past is just as problematic as the idea that I have just counted down from infinity. If the universe had an infinite past, then time would have had to count down from infinity to reach time zero, the present, and so would not have reached it. The fact that we have reached the present therefore shows that the past is not infinite but finite. The universe has a beginning. This claim, of course, has been confirmed by modern science, who trace the universe back to a point of origin in the ‘big bang’.
The past cannot go back forever, then; the universe must have a beginning. The next question is whether something caused this beginning, or whether the universe just popped into existence out of nothing. We all know, though, that nothing that begins to exist does so without a cause; nothing comes from nothing. For something to come into existence there must be something else that already exists that can bring it into existence. The fact that the universe began to exist therefore implies that something brought it into existence, that the universe has a Creator.
If this Creator were a being like the universe, a being that exists in time and so that came into existence, then it too would have to have been created by something. Nothing comes from nothing, not even God.
This tells us that the ultimate cause of the universe must never have come into existence; the ultimate Creator must be a being that exists outside of time, an eternal being with neither beginning nor end.
Assume that modern science is correct in saying that the universe began with a big bang, that the universe came into existence with an explosion that sent pieces of matter flying in all directions at an enormous rate. The big bang might have been other than it was; it might have involved more or less matter, or have involved a larger or a smaller explosion, for example.
That the big bang occurred as it did was crucial for the development of life, because the rate of expansion of the universe, i.e. the speed at which the pieces of matter flew apart, had to fall within certain limits if life was to develop.
Had the rate of expansion been too slow, then gravity would have pulled all of the matter back together again in a big crunch; there wouldn’t have been enough time for life to emerge.
Had the rate of expansion been too fast, then gravity wouldn’t have had a chance to pull any of the pieces of matter together, and planets, stars and even gases wouldn’t have been able to form; there wouldn’t have been anything for life to emerge on.
The rate of expansion following the big bang, of course, was just right to allow life to develop; if it weren’t then we wouldn’t be here now.
That this was the case, though, was either an extraordinary fluke, or was intended by the big bang’s Creator.
Had the rate of expansion been even fractionally slower then the big bang would have been followed by a big crunch before life could have developed.
Had the rate of expansion been even fractionally faster then stars and planets could not have formed.
It is highly unlikely that a random big bang would be such as to allow life to develop, and therefore highly unlikely, according to the argument from design, that the big bang from which our universe was formed happened at random.
The fact that the universe is fit for life requires explanation, and an appeal to chance is no explanation at all. It is far more likely that the universe was initiated by a being that intended to create a universe that could support life. The fine-tuning of the universe for life can only be explained with reference to a Creator, as the result of intelligent design.
The ontological argument is an argument for God’s existence based entirely on reason. According to this argument, there is no need to go out looking for physical evidence of God’s existence; we can work out that he exists just by thinking about it. Philosophers call such arguments a priori arguments.
There clearly are certain claims that we can tell are false without even having to look into them to find out. The claim to have made a four-sided triangle, and the claim to be over six feet tall but less than five, for example, are both claims that are obviously false. We know that triangles have three sides. We know that being over six feet tall means being over five feet tall too. No one that understands what the words in these claims mean would think that they might be true. There’s no need to spend time looking for four-sided triangles or tall short people in order to know that there aren’t any.
The ontological argument claims that the idea that God doesn’t exist is just as absurd as the idea that a four-sided triangle does. According to the ontological argument, we can tell that the claim that God doesn’t exist is false without having to look into it in any detail. Just as knowing what “triangle” means makes it obvious that a four-sided triangle is impossible, the argument suggests, knowing what “God” means makes it obvious that God’s non-existence is impossible. The claim that God does not exist is self-contradictory.
There are many things that something would have to be in order to be properly called “God”. For instance, it would have to be all-powerful, because a part of what “God” means is “all-powerful”. To call something that isn’t all-powerful God would be like calling a shape that doesn’t have three sides a triangle; to anyone who understands the words involved it just wouldn’t make sense. Another part of what “God” mean is “perfect”; something can’t properly be called God unless it is perfect. This is the key idea behind the ontological argument.
If something is perfect, then it couldn’t possibly be better than it is; there can’t be anything better than perfection. This means that if a thing is perfect then it is impossible to imagine it being better than it is; there is nothing better than it is to imagine.
If we think of God as being perfect—and perfection, remember, is part of the concept of God—then we must therefore think of God as a being that cannot be imagined to be better than he is. As St Anselm, the inventor of the ontological argument, put it, God is “that than which no greater can be conceived.”
It is therefore impossible to conceive either of there being anything greater than God or of it being possible to imagine God being better than he already is.
If we were to think of God as not existing, though, then we would be able to imagine him being better than he is; we would be able to imagine him existing, and a God that exists is clearly better than a God that doesn’t. To think of God as not existing, then, is to think of God as being imperfect, because a God that doesn’t exist could be better than he is.
The idea of an imperfect God, though, we have already said, is just as absurd as the idea of a four-sided triangle; “perfect” is part of what “God” means, just as “three-sided” is part of what “triangle” means. As the idea that God doesn’t exist implies his imperfection, therefore, the idea that God doesn’t exist is just as absurd, just as obviously false, as the idea that a four-sided triangle does. God’s non-existence is therefore impossible.
I, personally, do not believe the "logical argument" given here or other "logic based" arguments ABSOLUTELY PROVE the existence of God. Many if not most Christians believe proof comes only through communion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Some religions, outside Christianity have inspiration or revealation based precepts (that roughly parallel this Holy Spirit doctrine).
Some will see this as a sermon, I intended it to demonstrate that some find the existence of God entirely within the realm of logic.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Divine Interventions by Dan Millman.
pg 132 Transformation at Lourdes
pg 155 Our Lady of Guadalupe
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2006 - 08:50am PT
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You can look around the earth and see granger, Yosemite etc.
But for every example of granger you can find examples of human suffering that would sicken you.
Face it. Living in America you won the lottery. You have no idea of what it is to go Hungry or live in the constant fear of death. We hide in out material world and rarely think of the rest of the world unless it slows down our constant search for pleasure.
I for one think the whole belief in God is for the less enlightened.
What does it matter. The whole question is irrelevant.
I behave in a moral way not because I fear some type of punishment.
All Physics says is that matter and energy are equivalent. It says nothing about an intelligence behind the expanding bubble.
JDF
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Wonder wrote
"Buddhists believe in a mind stream that continues on for life after life. They do not believe in one creator god."
I'm not a Buddhist but find many truths in Buddhist writings, just as I do in the writings of many religions. I do find that they all suffer from the corruption brought on my time, politics, and human nature.
Buddha didn't deny God, he refused to talk about a God and didn't consider God a factor in freeing oneself. It's my feeling that's because once you start applying human perspective and concepts to God, you inevitably miscontrue God. (some members of some religions have God degraded to the worst torturing, despotic, egoistic tyrant imaginable)
Buddha didn't mention those other Demigods either nor condone Buddha worship, those are examples of corruption that has creaped into Buddhism. That doesn't mean that demigods don't exist or that Buddha Worship doesn't work, just that they have nothing to do with origninal Buddhism.
I think intention is everything. We are like children who can't truly know the "name" or nature of our source. If we approach "God" with good intentions, we get inspiration. If you baby is screaming "Da.da" you still come.
But we also make assumptions about the meaning of life and deny or condemn God because of suffering. That's like waking up in jail after a bender where you forget what the outside world is like, and thinking life sucks and there aren't any pretty girls.
This life is more like an epic climb. You fear, you suffer, and you grow from the adventure.
Peace
Karl
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2006 - 10:42am PT
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Spwllinf hAS has never been =MY STRONG POINT.
i LIKE NUMBERS.
jDF
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TimM
Trad climber
somewhere on the Sierra Eastside
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Until 2 years ago I was an atheist. My new belief in God was, in part, inspired and summarized by the following verses:
16And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. 17In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19We love because he first loved us. 20If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother. (1John 4:16-21, NIV)
Cheers,
Tim
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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But Juan the questions IS...do you believe in god? Or...who(m) is God (god)? Im currently confused as to which one. Well gotta go...heading to Church (church)
Peace
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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DMT wrote
"Juan there is a god gene. You know this is true."
Yeah man, There is a certain kinda woman in a certain kind of jeans that always make me say "God!"
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Q: What do you call an agnostic, dyslexic, imsomniac?
A: Someone who stays up at night, wondering if there is a dog.
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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because we don't have any real idea what happens when we die.
And that scares most very deeply.
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rockermike
Mountain climber
Berkeley
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Why do people believe that reality has no source or purpose if there is no proof that it has no source or purpose?
"As an explanation of the
world, materialism has a
sort of insane simplicity. It
has just the quality of the
madman’s arguments; we
have at once the sense of it
covering everything and
the sense of it leaving
everything out."
G.K. Chesterton,
"Orthodoxy"
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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wow jody. i mean jenny. that was quite a lecture. in a god (i mean good) way.
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Ouch!
climber
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Hawkeye, can't be Jody unless it is just copied from someone else.
Can you imagine Jody using the word "ontological"
LOL!
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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I think believing in god is a positive thing for some and negative for others.
The man that does not litter because he thinks it a sin is doing me a favor.
The man that tries to kill me because I do not believe as he does is my enemy.
When one believes in a kind and generous god that does not condone senseless violence towards others, I have no problem sharing this world with them.
When a man invokes god's name in order to reason away his hateful acts, I refuse to accept his existence.
I believe in a higher power that has saved my life more than once and I believe I am responsible for my actions while I visit this planet.
I believe in a personal god that may be nothing more than a cool breeze or as much as a natural disaster.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Fastest growing religious identification in the U.S.: Atheist and agnostic.
Anders
edit: damfino
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Ouch!
climber
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Chiloe...LOL!
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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I have to laugh, this is like a latenight college dorm, talking about the same subject.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Hawkeye and Ouch:
Jody is a mainline conservative Protestant. Jennie is Mormon( a NON-protestant denomination) Mormon's do not subscribe to the concept of knowing the existence of God through logic (alone).
If you read the first and last paragraphs of my post I noted that the body of the discourse contained the mainline Christian's logicians attempt at justifying God's existence with LOGIC. (not my logic, but if logic is your way to God, then the logic I presnted as the quintessential Christain logicians view is a pretty sound argument)
Jody can speak for his own position--his views vary substancially from mine. I stated that I did not believe logic was hinge on which the door of God's existence swings. Since Juan question weighed in on the LOGIC angle, I posted the basic, mainline Christian logician position. This statement appears in many places,(books and internet) other than the link Chloe posted.
But please don't stop refering to me as Jody---it means instant notoriety and celebrity for an ST nobody.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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"One being that human beings have innate sense of right or wrong"
"If God doesn't exist, this moral code doesn't exist and consciousness doesn't exist."
These two statements are contradictory. You probably meant something slightly different. However, the second statement is a false dichotomy. Either A or B. If not A, then therefore necessarily B. Which of course does not offer up explanation C at all.
Logic can be fun.
I am conscious.
I am a person with a moral code.
God does not exist.
Please reconcile these statements as made by a singular individual.
I wanted to get into that big long post about the cosmological argument for the existence of god. Also the ontological and de-ontological.
Quite simply our language is filled with metaphysical meaning. We can't get away from it. It is in metaphor. However, why? I'm not worried about people believing in a faith or god. I'm worried about people using that faith to rise to power as an elected official blowing sh#t loads of money and good soldiers dying for a country that instead of eliminating terrorism, now explicitly has created a cause celeb for it. Iraq as the poster child for terror recruitment. Further, the politicizing of 'the war on terror' and not helping the Afghani gov't recover is down right reprehensible.
oh crap, I'm sorry. this is not a climbing post. drawn into it again. damn.
late
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Blight
Social climber
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Being an atheist is a lot like being single.
You spend an astonshing amount of time and effort telling everyone, over and over, that, really, you’re perfectly happy being single.
You keep telling everyone how great it is to be free to do whatever you want.
You say that it’s great not being answerable to anyone.
You say that you can just play the field, have a little of everything without all the burdens and responsibilities.
You say that it’s just terrific not to have to go to the parents’ house on Sunday.
You even take take the time and effort to laugh or sometimes tut and shake your head sadly, when you see folks who aren’t single arguing.
Some particularly bitter singletons even go out of their way to harangue and pressure people they know who are in relationships, telling them that the single lifestyle would be so much better and they should dump that baggage and be free.
But you know and everybody knows that if you’re single for life, you’re going to miss a whole world of fulfilment and reward which can only ever come from a long-term stable relationship based on a serious commitment.
Atheism can never, ever bring fulfilment or satisfaction, because atheism is just an empty space where part of life should be. It’s a vacuum. A void. It’s sitting still with an empty brain. Fulfilment doesn’t come from doing nothing at all. It can’t. Atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
Atheism creates nothing, does nothing and leads nowhere. It has no value, no reward and no benefit, because it is nothing.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Because the ones they trusted only spilled the beans about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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"Atheism can never, ever bring fulfilment or satisfaction, because atheism is just an empty space where part of life should be. It’s a vacuum. A void. It’s sitting still with an empty brain. Fulfilment doesn’t come from doing nothing at all. It can’t. Atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
Or, it is the ultimatte path to fufillment, puts the onus on you, no lollygaging on the rules.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Atheism can never, ever bring fulfilment or satisfaction, because atheism is just an empty space where part of life should be."
Can you explain how you know that I live a empty life without even knowing me?
"It’s a vacuum. A void. It’s sitting still with an empty brain."
Can you please explain what you mean with this? Are you saing that atheists dont use there brains? That philosophers like Bertrand Russel didn't think?
"Fulfilment doesn’t come from doing nothing at all"
Once again what is the connection with ateism and doing nothing? Here is a list of atheists,
http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm,
are the famous because the did nothing?
"It can’t."
I think this is kind of true. Doing nothing is not a good way for fullfilment. I dont see the connection to religion, atheism though.
"Atheism is a belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby."
??
"Atheism creates nothing, does nothing and leads nowhere. It has no value, no reward and no benefit, because it is nothing."
What do you mean? Are you saing that atheism dont exist? In that case why?
Are you saing that atheists dont do anything good? I have to disagree with you in that case. I just think for example Einsteins has done quite a lot for the world.
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Blight
Social climber
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There's nothing complicated about this:
An atheist may have a fulfilling life, but the filfilment must come from something other than their atheism. Atheism provides nothing, because it is nothing: it is literally "a-theism", that is without a god". A space where God is in other's lives, a self-created gap which has no function of any kind.
By all means, go live without God if you can. But let's face it, you don't seem to be able to stop discussing him, arguing about him and telling others he doesn't exist, do you?
Atheism isn't closing your eyes and saying, "I can't see!". It's closing your eyes and saying, "there's no such thing as light!".
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Scary Sh1t, D-know.
"By all means, go live without God if you can. But let's face it, you don't seem to be able to stop discussing him, arguing about him and telling others he doesn't exist, do you?
Atheism isn't closing your eyes and saying, "I can't see!". It's closing your eyes and saying, "there's no such thing as light!"."
Wow an agenda! feeling a bit weak in your confidence, blight? Shout louder.
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raymond phule
climber
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"An atheist may have a fulfilling life, but the filfilment must come from something other than their atheism."
True and well put. But is it possibly to have a fullfilling life based on faith without doing something? Is the only advantage with faith that you can do nothing and still have a fullfilling life? If so is that a good thing?
"Atheism provides nothing, because it is nothing: it is literally "a-theism", that is without a god"."
It might not provide something but it also give you the opportunity to not live your life under a religion. I belive this is a god thing.
"A space where God is in other's lives, a self-created gap which has no function of any kind."
I am more a beliver in that some people has a gap that needs to be filled by a God and that atheist dont have and never had this gap that needs to be filled.
"By all means, go live without God if you can. But let's face it, you don't seem to be able to stop discussing him, arguing about him and telling others he doesn't exist, do you? "
A lot of assumptions. I dont care what people belive in if it doesn't affect other people. I have never tried to convience someone that God doesn't exist but I have tried to point out the errors in peoples arguments a couple of times.
Your post was negative against atheists and I belive that it is much more religous people trying to convience atheist that God exist compared to the other way around.
Atheism isn't closing your eyes and saying, "I can't see!". It's closing your eyes and saying, "there's no such thing as light!".
I dont think this metaphor says anything. A better metaphor is a blind man arguing that light doesn't exist because he cant see. He cant know if there are light or not, his only opinion is to belive. I haven't seen a single argument for the existens of a God that is even remotely conviencing according to me. The blind man hoppfully get some good arguments for the existens of light.
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Blight
Social climber
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I dont think this metaphor says anything.
Well, of course you don't.
You say you don't see that God exists and see no good arguments. But almost everyone else on earth does. Over 90% of all human beings have some kind of religion, based on their own experience which is that God exists.
But just because you don't have that experience, you claim that no-one else can.
Which, of course, makes no sense at all.
I dont care what people belive in if it doesn't affect other people.
Well, you'd want to keep a close eye on yourself then. Four of the top five mass murderers of all time were atheists, responsible for over 100 million deaths. Atheism dwarfs religion in the sheer violence and brutality of its history.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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interesting.
my GF's daughter is (was) atheist, she was raised that way. she is 20 and now has a christian BF.
she is a good person and a good girl. this christian kid did not get it. he asked her "why don't you sleep around, get drunk, etc." "I mean if you dont believe in god, why dont you just go do whatever you want?"
this kid could not believe that someone could have as high (or higher) moral values without god. it was hard for him to fathom that someone would be good because that was the right thing to do. seems like there are many believers out there who think the same way. astonishing.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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yeah right sir blight.
the suffering inflicted on the people of the world by so called christians over the last thousand years makes me want to be part of the herd.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Well, of course you don't."
I tried to give a better one.
"You say you don't see that God exists and see no good arguments."
Correct
"But almost everyone else on earth does."
God arguments or fear, social norms etc?
"Over 90% of all human beings have some kind of religion, based on their own experience which is that God exists."
Or because there parents and sociaty told them to. Many philosophers have tried to prove that God exist but I have to admitt that I dont by them.
Almost 100% of western children belive in Santa Claus. Does that prove that he exist?
"But just because you don't have that experience, you claim that no-one else can."
No, I haven't claimed that. I belive faith can be good for people. I dont belive that it is necessary for me though.
You on the other hand claimed that I miss something because I dont have faith in God.
"Which, of course, makes no sense at all."
Making a straw man and destroing it dont prove that you are correct.
"Well, you'd want to keep a close eye on yourself then. Four of the top five mass murderers of all time were atheists, responsible for over 100 million deaths. Atheism dwarfs religion in the sheer violence and brutality of its history."
You might be right about the massmurders. Who are you talking about? Hitler, Stalin, Mao? Pol pot?
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler Doesn't seem that Hitler was an atheist.
I dont like these kind of generalisations. I have problem to fel responsibly for some nutcases that died many years before I got born. I doubt that you like to be resposibly for which burning for example.
A lot of bad things have been done in the name of religion over the years. Bad things have probably been done in the name of atheism also. I cant blame Hitler and the second world war on atheism. Do you blame ateism when a crazy atheist takes over a country and start a war?
You want to make the point that atheism is more dangerous compared to religion. You try to do that by taking into account the largest massmurders. You avoid many bads things by only considering the worst cases. The cumulative bad things from religion might be larger. I dont know and it is very difficullt to measure.
I have problem to see religion as peacemaking when I look at the world and see all conficts that exist because of religion.
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Blight
Social climber
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God arguments or fear, social norms etc? Or because there parents and sociaty told them to.
Well, thanks for speaking for all of us. I like the imaginary indoctrination bit.
Because of course if they were religious of their own free will, because of their own personal experiences of God, that would shoot the sh#t out of your argument, wouldn't it?
Because then, almost everyone would know that God existed except you, and you'd STILL be claiming that almost everyone in the world was wrong except you.
You on the other hand claimed that I miss something because I dont have faith in God.
Yes, you are!
You literally have less to your life than someone who has faith, because they have everything you do PLUS faith, and all that comes with it. In your life you have the same as them, MINUS faith.
Well I bet that stings. Oh well, tough sh#t.
I dont like these kind of generalisations.
Whoops, shoulda thought of that BEFORE you started claiming that all religious people are wrong, brainwashed and gullible.
Oh yeah, and:
I have problem to see religion as peacemaking when I look at the world and see all conficts that exist because of religion
You keep on coming out with crude generalisations like that one, and I'll keep pointing out that 100 million people have been murdered by only 5 atheists: if you want to play the "religion is responsible for so much suffering" card, you're going to have to swallow this: atheism is responsible for far, far worse things than religion could ever dream of.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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blight,
"You literally have less to your life than someone who has faith, because they have everything you do PLUS faith, and all that comes with it. In your life you have the same as them, MINUS faith."
Life + Faith is still equal to Life.
therefore,
faith = ZERO.
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Blight
Social climber
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Yup, I thought that would hurt, hawkeye.
Still, life's tough sometimes. Oh and you can probably kid yourself that a life with no faith, no hope, no peace, no God and no purpose to it has just as much in it as with with all those things, but that's the only person you're kidding.
After all, if there's no truth to it then why were you butt hurt enough to make a snippy reply?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Whether you are a theist, atheist or agnostic is just a blip in the conceptual area of your mind that may or may not make a difference in how you live. If you ask me God doesn't give a damn what you believe. God's grace is conducted by the intention of the heart.
Some Atheists or Agnostics are simply being honest about not having enough information or experience to acknowledge a reality that is hard to fathom and whose existence is cloaked with myth, superstition and political corruption.
Real connection with Spirit can exist without conscious conception of God and Religion. Real spirituality is marked by a capacity for love and peace of mind, whoever, whereever, and however it arises.
Belief in God goes away when you are sleeping, eating or doing anything else. Spiritual connection is who you are all the time
Peace
Karl
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Blight
Social climber
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Wow, I can't believe raymond phule's actually defending hitler.
Wow.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Well, thanks for speaking for all of us. I like the imaginary indoctrination bit."
Ok, I am going to try to explain what I meant. A lot of personal beliefs and such come from the enviroment. Children belive in Santa becuase their parents and society tell them that he exist. It is likely that your political views are similar to the people around you. It is much more likely that your religious beliefs is cristian if you live in the US with christian parents compared to if you live in india with hindu parents. This is how it works and I wouldn't call it indoctrination. Can you explain in some other way that the religous beliefs is different in different parts of the world?
"Because of course if they were religious of their own free will, because of their own personal experiences of God, that would shoot the sh#t out of your argument, wouldn't it?"
As above, I dont belive that everybody choices religion or atheism by there own by taken a reasoned choice. How do you explain hindu in India, christian in the US and many secular in northern europe and at the same time complete freedom of choice?
"Because then, almost everyone would know that God existed except you, and you'd STILL be claiming that almost everyone in the world was wrong except you."
Proff by concensious is not a valid argument. Most people belived that the relativity theory was incorrect but it turned out to be correct. Everybody know that the earth was flat.
I dont claim that God doesn't exist. I dont belive that he doesn't exist but cant prove it.
"You literally have less to your life than someone who has faith, because they have everything you do PLUS faith, and all that comes with it. In your life you have the same as them, MINUS faith."
I cant see why faith should be that important compared to other stuff. I have a lot of things both spiritual and material. I am sure that I have a better life compared to many religous people with faith. Or are you again suggesting that I am unlucky because I have no faith? You said before that a fullfilling life was possibly for an atheist.
"Well I bet that stings. Oh well, tough sh#t."
No it didn't sting actually.
"Whoops, shoulda thought of that BEFORE you started claiming that all religious people are wrong, brainwashed and gullible."
I have tried to explained above what I belive about brainwashed and gullible. I belive that it is mostly a cultural thing.
I must be allowed to belive that most people are wrong in a matter where there are no proofs?
"You keep on coming out with crude generalisations like that one, and I'll keep pointing out that 100 million people have been murdered by only 5 atheists: if you want to play the "religion is responsible for so much suffering" card, you're going to have to swallow this: atheism is responsible for far, far worse things than religion could ever dream of. "
First, can you tell me which crual acts you are talking about?
Second, I dont think atheism is responsible for an action just because the person is atheist in the same way that I dont blame the religion if a religous person make an action. I belive that most of your examples have nothing to do with religion and I have thus a problem to blame religion.
A lot of bad things have been done in the name of the religion (or atleast people claiming that it is for the religion). Some examples Irland, Yugoslavia, which burning, the crusades, 9/11 etc. This doesn't show that religions is bad but that bad things have been done.
My point is that bad things happen and have happened in the world both by atheist and religous people and that the problem is the people not if they have faith or not.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Wow, I can't believe raymond phule's actually defending hitler.
Wow."
Sorry, did I defend Hitler? Must go back and read my post once again. Back soon.
I am back. So I wrote
" I cant blame Hitler and the second world war on atheism. Do you blame ateism when a crazy atheist takes over a country and start a war?"
Ok, not the best sentence but I am supprised that some one could belive that I defended Hitler by that sentence...
Ok, for Blight. I thought Hitler was one of the massmurders you refered to. Then I wanted to make the point that the reason for Hitlers crimes wasn't because he was an atheist but becuase he was a cracy lunatic. I found out later that Hitler wasn't an atheist and made an edit. But didn't edit the rest of the post. So I dont defend Hitler.
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Blight
Social climber
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Can you explain in some other way that the religous beliefs is different in different parts of the world?
No, and I'm not going to either because it's a completely irrelevant distinction.
There are thousands of different languages in the world, with regional variations. Does that mean that all languages are wrong? Or do they all serve the same purpose almost equally well?
First, can you tell me which crual acts you are talking about?
Nope. You say that religion is responsible for non-specific "conflicts", I'll keep hitting you with non-specific murders by atheists until you stop it. Don't like the taste of your own medicine? Quit dishing it out then.
Proof by concensious is not a valid argument.
Of course it is. I've never been to Hong Kong, but a hell of a lot of people tell me it exists. Would it make any sense at all for me to say Hong Kong definitely doesn't exist because I haven't seen it?
Cos that's the argument you're using.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Lots of people are schizophrenic too, but that doesn't mean the voices in their heads are real. But feel free to maintain whatever relationship with whatever imaginary friend you need to keep you from committing mass genocide. Probably for the best.
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WBraun
climber
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Why do so many people believe in God?
It's so simple, all the speculation and foolish nonsense in these threads is a mind blower.
It's because we are part parcel of the supreme lord. We have all the qualities but not the quantities. There never exists any separation from him, only forgetfulness due to our rebellious nature and independent free will.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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And that's our fault but not "His"? What a strange little game he plays. On the one hand taking credit for all that is, but on the other disavowing responsibility for his own creation's "rebelliousness." Sounds bipolar to me.
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WBraun
climber
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cintune
You are just a foolish mental speculator.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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How does God keep track of all of us?
Why does he do such a bad job?
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2006 - 02:57pm PT
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Blight:
some data for you:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited."
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922
"We are determined, as leaders of the nation, to fulfill as a national government the task which has been given to us, swearing fidelity only to God, our conscience, and our Volk.... This the national government will regard its first and foremost duty to restore the unity of spirit and purpose of our Volk. It will preserve and defend the foundations upon which the power of our nation rests. It will take Christianity, as the basis of our collective morality, and the family as the nucleus of our Volk and state, under its firm protection....May God Almighty take our work into his grace, give true form to our will, bless our insight, and endow us with the trust of our Volk."
-Adolf Hitler, on 1 Feb. 1933, addressing the German nation as Chancellor for the first time, Volkischer Beobachter, 5 Aug. 1935
"We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf,
You'll probably really like this one:
"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
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Manjusri
climber
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Man is not omniscient, therefore there exists that which is unknown and transcendent. There are as many different ways of conceptualizing this as there are people, and the name it goes by for most is "god". To paraphrase Roger Zelazny: Some people bow before the unknown and avert their eyes, and others advance upon it with the tools available to the mind to make it known.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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I just wish God got the Human Spine Design Correct.
Or maybe made gravity a little less strong.
JDF
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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A foolish mental speculator? Gee, thanks Werner! I suppose I could call you a foolish fairy-tale believer, but that wouldn't be very civil, especially considering the high regard you deservedly enjoy around here. Actions speak louder than words, after all. People believe what they want to believe for deeply personal reasons, which is why religion is typically off-limits in polite conversation. But I agree with whomever posted here above saying that if there is a god, it really shouldn't care what people think of it. Behaving compassionately toward our fellows does not require the dictate of a supreme being, however. It's just been too often the case that people have used their God as an excuse to behave like absolute shits to each other.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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blight
"Yup, I thought that would hurt, hawkeye.
Still, life's tough sometimes. Oh and you can probably kid yourself that a life with no faith, no hope, no peace, no God and no purpose to it has just as much in it as with with all those things, but that's the only person you're kidding.
After all, if there's no truth to it then why were you butt hurt enough to make a snippy reply? "
poor blight. i apologize if i hurt your feelings. i am not butt hurt. i almost added something to that post. something like this...
i believe in god. it took me a while to get there, but i do. i admire those that are fulfilled in their lives whether they have god or not. machs nicht as hitler would have said.
the difference i see in you and i is that i do not need to make my beliefs known, nor do i need to argue so strongly one way or the other as you are here.
why do i believe in god? because of what has happened in my life.
my god may not be your god. i disagree with worshipping a stuck jesus on a cross. i disagree with arguing so vehemently that i am right and you are wrong. i have never travelled your road and you have not travelled mine. i can be a brother to other people who believe differently than i. my relationship with god is not something that i have to share with others, nor is it something that i need to go to church.
i am not certain that the bible we have today is the truth. man has been involved in translating and recording the bible and man is not always righteous or correct. he f*#ks up sometimes.
in short, my faith that i have is good, but i do not presume to know that my life is richer than others who do not share that.
i do not vote republican.
i dont give to churches ever since i built houses 30 yrs ago. i built a house for a guy who handled the LDS chruch money. it was disgusting how much money the guy had.
sorry for the blather, blight.
if you cannot lighten up, then your life is dark dark dark....
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2006 - 03:50pm PT
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Werner has the SAR stuff down. But aside from that he is nuttier than a fruitcake.
JDF
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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fits in great here then. hehe
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WBraun
climber
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cintune
I could call you a foolish fairy-tale believer .....
You already have in many posts previous indirectly, not that I give a sh#t.
Those who are mental speculators, those who are fruitive workers, those who are mediators or mystic yogis, cannot explain the science of God.
Do you really want me to go into it ( about your questions )? Do you really want to hear it Juan? I don't think so Juan. I don't believe you really are sincere enough.
You are always trolling, and thus have fallen under the example of the boy who cried wolf to many times.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2006 - 05:17pm PT
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Its not a troll Werner,
I think many people blindly believe in God out of Fear.
People should question their beliefs.
We cannot all be right. Either I am wrong or you are wrong.
Juan
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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WB: Do you really want me to go into it ( about your questions )?
 If you've got the time, sure. To be clear, however, I have already spent a good bit of time reading the Vedas, likewise the major Kundalini and Mahayana texts. I think they all display a great depth of psychological insight and share a vision of human potential that is inspirational in ways that go far beyond anything found in contemporary Western religion. But I remain atheistic, because I was raised on science instead of mysticism.
What interests me the most, really, is your apparent willingness to lump these traditions together under the generic heading of "God," when you clearly view godhead as Krishna, not Yahweh and/or Christ, which is what most of the other "religious" posters here mean in their devotions. Although there are similarities, such as the Diamond Sutra/Sermon on the Mount, there are also some serious differences that I find very difficult to reconcile. The god of the Old Testament, in particular, seems to be more of a demon than a god, in Vedic terms anyway. But that's what the Gnostics thought, so I suppose there may be a way to bridge over the confusions in those traditions. I'm not saying that fairy-tales can't have significant symbolic meaning.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Far Eastern religions in general are far more compatible with a modern scientific worldview than any of the monotheistic faiths, Gnosticism excluded.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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My father taught me to fear the unknown, especially when it came to what consequences he would implement when I went against him.
I call it the God complex.
I don't know, but I also don't want to find out by crossing the line.
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Ouch!
climber
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"That God has managed to survive the inanities of the religions that do him homage is truly a miraculous proof of his existence." --Ben Hecht ...
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raymond phule
climber
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""Can you explain in some other way that the religous beliefs is different in different parts of the world?""
"No, and I'm not going to either because it's a completely irrelevant distinction."
No, it isn't. I live in a secular country and most people around me doesn't belive in God. This is very similar to the faith of people in india and the US.
"There are thousands of different languages in the world, with regional variations. Does that mean that all languages are wrong? Or do they all serve the same purpose almost equally well?"
What are the connection with God?
"First, can you tell me which crual acts you are talking about?"
""Nope. You say that religion is responsible for non-specific "conflicts", I'll keep hitting you with non-specific murders by atheists until you stop it. Don't like the taste of your own medicine? Quit dishing it out then.""
Sorry Blight but I actually mentioned conflicts and bad things that have happened in the name of religion. Once again Irland, Yugoslavia, 9/11, witch burning, the crusades and the aquisition. These are obvious examples and there definitely exist more.
""Proof by concensious is not a valid argument.""
"Of course it is. I've never been to Hong Kong, but a hell of a lot of people tell me it exists. Would it make any sense at all for me to say Hong Kong definitely doesn't exist because I haven't seen it?"
Ok, you have difficulties with logic. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html
Everybody thought the world was flat. Could people prove that it was flat because of the concensous that it was flat?
Most knoweledge about the world have come because people questioned the world view that was dominant at the time. Flat world, earth in the center of the universe, the sun made of iron to name a few scientific. All people that first postulated what turned out to be the correct knoweledge in these cases was very badly handled by the people with the old view.
It's folish to deny the existens of Hong Kong because there exist a lot of evidense that it exist. Movies, pictures, people living there etc. Not because most people belive it exist.
"Cos that's the argument you're using."
One thing here is that I haven't claimed that God doesn't exist. I dont know if he exists or not. I dont belive he exist and I dont belive that it is possibly to prove that he exists or not.
You seems to suggest that he must exist because a lot of people belive he exist. This is not a valid argument.
You suggest that I am missing something in my life because I dont have faith. I disagree with you but I might be wrong.
I belive that you can have a fullfilling happy life without God.
I belive that it is more important what you do in life compared to if you belive in God or not.
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shmikee
Trad climber
Cheyenne,Wyoming
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What Is God's Purpose?
MANY people who doubt the existence of an all-powerful, loving God ask: If God does exist, why has he allowed so much suffering and wickedness throughout history? Why does he allow the sorry state of things we see around us today? Why does he not do something to bring an end to war, crime, injustice, poverty, and other miseries that are escalating at an alarming rate in so many countries of the earth?
http://www.watchtower.org/e/19990208/article_02.htm
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 05:02am PT
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At one point in time all the universe would fit in the tip of a pin.
So did God say BANG!
Did God know how it would turn out.
14 Billion years ago did God know what he would create?
If a God existed would he let his children suffer so?
Opps. We need a new explination for that.
JDF
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Blight
Social climber
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It's folish to deny the existens of Hong Kong because there exist a lot of evidense that it exist.
Then by that token it would be equally foolish to deny that God exists: there are literally tens of thousands of volumes of theoretical, eye-witness, philosophical, historical and written evidence for God's existence. In fact there are whole bookshops in every city dedicated to almost nothing else.
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Blight
Social climber
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If a God existed would he let his children suffer so?
That's a good point.
But does God create our suffering? Or do we and our fellow men create it?
We have free will; why blame God for wars, famines and suffering which human beings create?
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raymond phule
climber
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""It's folish to deny the existens of Hong Kong because there exist a lot of evidense that it exist. ""
"Then by that token it would be equally foolish to deny that God exists: there are literally tens of thousands of volumes of theoretical, eye-witness, philosophical, historical and written evidence for God's existence. In fact there are whole bookshops in every city dedicated to almost nothing else."
Sorry Blight but I haven't seen a single evidence that God exists. Cant you give me a reference to atleast a single one?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 05:42am PT
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If a God would stand by and let little girls be executed I have no need or time for that God.
Pathetic.
JDF
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 05:54am PT
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I think I have figured it out.
We are in Hell.
The question is can we get out?
JDF
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Blight
Social climber
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"Sorry Blight but I haven't seen a single evidence that God exists. Cant you give me a reference to atleast a single one?"
We've already established that you can't see evidence because you're not looking.
So you want me to show you the book? Then you'll demand that I pick it up, find the page, read it out to you then explain it, right?
No dice. If you really want to know, you'll go look it up for yourself. Don't ask me to do your learning for you.
But since you won't bother, read this instead - Luke 16 verses 19-31. It's a story jesus told which describes people like you. See if you can understand it.
http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Luke+16&book_id=49&version1=31&tp=24&c=16
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Blight
Social climber
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If a God would stand by and let little girls be executed I have no need or time for that God.
Oh, so it's God's fault because he didn't stop it?
Well, you didn't stop it either.
Does that make it your fault?
What makes more sense, to demand that God stop people from killing each other, or to look at why they're doing it and stop it ourselves?
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raymond phule
climber
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"We've already established that you can't see evidence because you're not looking. So you want me to show you the book? Then you'll demand that I pick it up, find the page, read it out to you then explain it, right?"
Of course, you are the person that want to prove something and you should provide the evidence. It is that way in court and science for example. Isn't this obvious?
"No dice. If you really want to know, you'll go look it up for yourself. Don't ask me to do your learning for you."
This is also a comment that is so obvious faulty in all other cases than religion. A professor write paper about a theory without given any evidence for the theory just saing "If you really want to know, you'll go look it up for yourself. Don't ask me to do your learning for you." I can assure you that the paper is not going to be published.
"But since you won't bother, read this instead - Luke 16 verses 19-31. It's a story jesus told which describes people like you. See if you can understand it.
http://bibledev.azaz.com/bibleresources/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Luke+16&book_id=49&version1=31&tp=24&c=16"
Why should I belive anything in the bible as more than storys writting down several years after the actual happening? Why should I see Jesus in a another why than other philosopher like Platon, Kant, Nitche? Why should I belive that the bible is God words more than I belive in the Koran or the scientolog bible? Do you belive that both the Koran and the scientolog bible is true?
Think about why you dont belive these religions and books and you should be able to understand why I dont belive your holy book.
From the link.
"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much."
I interpret this like I cant trust you with anything at all because you cant even backup your claim that 4 of the 5 worst massmurders where atheists. You might be right but you need to backup your claim to get any crediability.
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Blight
Social climber
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Of course, you are the person that want to prove something and you should provide the evidence.
*sigh*
I'm not the one asking for evidence. You are. Read your own posts, man.
"Why should I belive anything in the bible as more than storys writting down blah blah blah bullshit bullshit bullshit blah blah"
The story says that if you're not going to bother looking at the evidence right in front of you, you're not going to believe anything I give you either.
Yes, there were idiots like you 2000 years ago too, and Jesus knew all about your bullshit and had it covered too.
Either do the research yourself or stop talking rubbish, shut up and go away. Either way works well for me (and for God, by the way).
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Blight
Social climber
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Oh and here's what Hitler had to say about christianity:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night
"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."
21st October, 1941, midday
"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight
"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... ....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)
14th December, 1941, midday
"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday
"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
These are just a small sample.
Hitler knew that religion was a good way to manipulate people, but he wasn't religious himself. Read the quotes and look at his actions, for God's sake!
Oh, and if Hitler was an atheist, that would mean that 5 out of the top 5 were probably atheists. Thanks for bringing it up (although you;re not doing your side any favours).
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raymond phule
climber
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""Of course, you are the person that want to prove something and you should provide the evidence."
*sigh*
I'm not the one asking for evidence. You are. Read your own posts, man."
Blight. You say that good exists. I say that I dont know if God exist but I doubt it. This is similar to a prosecutor saying that person A killed someone. You are the prosecutor and I am the judge. It should be very clear for everyone that it is the prosecutors job to convience the judge that person A is a murder and that he should do it by given evidence. The judge is the person asking for evidence. Is this so difficult to understand?
""Why should I belive anything in the bible as more than storys writting down blah blah blah bullshit bullshit bullshit blah blah"
The story says that if you're not going to bother looking at the evidence right in front of you, you're not going to believe anything I give you either."
I am looking for evidence and you are correct that I am not going to belive you if you dont give me any evidence.
"Yes, there were idiots like you 2000 years ago too, and Jesus knew all about your bullshit and had it covered too."
Nice, some ad hominum. You call me and what is it 5 billion people in the world idiots. Thats a very good argument... or maybe not.
"Either do the research yourself or stop talking rubbish, shut up and go away. Either way works well for me (and for God, by the way)."
I am sure that your work as a prosecutor would end pretty soon.
Judge, do the investigation for yourself and send the prosecuted to death. You are a complete idiot if you cant see that he is quilty without getting any evidence. Your f*#king idiot.
Still waiting for the name of the 5 worst massmurders.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Read the quotes and look at his actions, for God's sake!"
I have read the quotes and looked at the actions from George W Bush. The logical conclusion is that he cant be a christian either according to you. Or is it good christian values to lie, torture, manipulate and start offensive wars?
"Oh, and if Hitler was an atheist, that would mean that 5 out of the top 5 were probably atheists."
Cant you for the third or forth time give the name of the massmurders. Or is it good christian values to not back up claims and answering questions?
"Thanks for bringing it up (although you;re not doing your side any favours)."
Once again I have difficulties seeing this as two sides fighting each other. I see it as crazy people with or without fath do bad things.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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blight,
i checked out that link you provided to Luke 16. i was curious.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "
while i think helping others is great and everything, and perhaps the rich guy could have done so, arent we supposed to help ourselves? should america become more socialist?
and who do we listen to here on earth now? who are our prophets that will save us? if there is really some human on our earth now that can shed some light,well, inquiring minds want to know...
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Blight
Social climber
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I am looking for evidence and you are correct that I am not going to belive you if you dont give me any evidence.
Raymond, this isn't a courtroom. It's a discussion forum. You want evidence? There are loads of places you can get it - if you're actually looking, which you're not, or you would've found plenty already.
I'm not looking for evidence, you are. So go find it if you really want it.
You call me and what is it 5 billion people in the world idiots.
No, just you, the guy who says he's looking for evidence but hasn't even bothered to go to a library or a bookshop, or even just to google for it.
Still waiting for the name of the 5 worst massmurders.
Google it you thick f*#k.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Google it you thick f*#k.
lol, thanks for the help in finding god. a true missionary of the teachings of god.
lol
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Blight
Social climber
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while i think helping others is grat and everything, and perhaps the rich guy could have done so, arent we supposed to help ourselves?
Yes, of course you're right, we should help ourselves when we can. But sometimes we genuinely need help too.
That's what the parable is about.
We need to learn to recognise when people really can't do things on their own, and to help those people. But we also need to learn to not help them when they should be doing it for themselves.
Raymond is perfectly capable of looking for evidence of God himself. But he demands, like the rich man in the story, that I do everything for him. But just as in the parable, in real life we know that the sad fact is that if somebody, like Raymond, will not help himself when he could, then our help will not accomplish anything more than making him more dependent on us.
Utlimately, if he's capable of doing it himself then he should. His shrill claims that I have to support him are just an excuse not to start.
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Blight
Social climber
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lol, thanks for the help in finding god. a true missionary of the teachings of god.
You don't have to find him, he's there all the time. But you have to open your own eyes.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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hey plight, how do you know "god" is a he?
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Blight
Social climber
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and who do we listen to here on earth now?
There are churches on every corner of every city. All you have to do is walk in and ask.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Blight...unfortunately you are using a single source called "Hitler's Table Talk"...it has been disputed widely whether this is even an accurate source...
Got any of his speeches that say what you are claiming? I think not. But you know, interestingly, even in "all" your quotes, Hitler never condemns Jeeeeeesus.....
Why don't we just start with what Hitler "wrote"...
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 46]
What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp. 125]
The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
The fight against syphilis demands a fight against prostitution, against prejudices, old habits, against previous conceptions, general views among them not least the false prudery of certain circles. The first prerequisite for even the moral right to combat these things is the facilitation of earlier marriage for the coming generation. In late marriage alone lies the compulsion to retain an institution which, twist and turn as you like, is and remains a disgrace to humanity, an institution which is damned ill-suited to a being who with his usual modesty likes to regard himself as the 'image' of God. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 10]
This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.152]
And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.174]
Catholics and Protestants are fighting with one another... while the enemy of Aryan humanity and all Christendom is laughing up his sleeve. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, pp.309]
I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so [Adolph Hitler, to Gen. Gerhard Engel, 1941]
Any violence which does not spring from a spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain. It lacks the stability which can only rest in a fanatical outlook. [Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf, p. 171]
I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 1]
I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought. At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 2]
...the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study. [Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 3]
I've said this to you before and will say it again...just how do you think you can bring a "Nation to War" with the an atheistic statement like, "hey guys, guess what, there is no Gott, you are just a meatbag. When you die you rot, and that's it..."
Pix worth 1000 tho...
...
Let me know if you need a translation of this Nazi soldier belt buckle...Hint: it's kind of along the lines of "God Bless America"...
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Blight
Social climber
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hey plight, how do you know "god" is a he?
He's not, God doesn't have a gender.
It's arbitrary. You can called him her if you like, I'm sure she won't mind.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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i believe she's a BITCH.
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Blight
Social climber
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Why don't we just start with what Hitler "wrote"...
Like I said, Hitler knew that religion was a good way to motivate people. But he wasn't a christian.
If you can dispute that he said what I quoted, go ahead. Otherwise it stands.
Oh, and nice to see that you've stopped pretending to be looking for evidence of God. Obsessing over this one tiny detail in all that I've said is comcial. Why not just accept that 99% of what you've written so far has been shown to be bullshit instead of deperately trying to salvage this one last point by defending Hitler (of all people)?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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So it W a CINO or a real one?
Why would anyone care what I think about "God"...I'm ignostic at best.
However, the boomerian notion that AH was "atheist" or at least "paganist" is a misnomer that needs to be put to rest....take for instance, "Mama's Cross"...
Got any other sources than "Table Talk"? Of course if you know history, you'll know that Hitler was just cribbing off of Martin Luther's "The Jews and Their Lies" (1543).
"Heaven will smile on us again."-AH (MK
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raymond phule
climber
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"Raymond, this isn't a courtroom."
Isn't the bible full of methaphors? Do you understand them or is it just methaphors outside the bible that you cant understand?
"It's a discussion forum. You want evidence? There are loads of places you can get it - if you're actually looking, which you're not, or you would've found plenty already."
You told me that there where thousands of evidence but you cant even show me a single one. Why should I belive you? You have no idea whatsover have much I have looked. Just assumptions and prejudice. Is prejudice also a cristian virtue?
"I'm not looking for evidence, you are. So go find it if you really want it."
Taka a look at the courtroom example and you might be able to understand that it is you that should provide evidence.
"No, just you, the guy who says he's looking for evidence but hasn't even bothered to go to a library or a bookshop, or even just to google for it."
You have no idea whatsover what I have done. Just assumptions. Is this really christian values?
"Google it you thick f*#k."
Very good argument. I am starting to be convienced that christianity is a very good religion for me when I see how nice you answer me... or was it the flying spaggeti monster religion that seemed like a nice choice?
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raymond phule
climber
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"Raymond is perfectly capable of looking for evidence of God himself."
And I have done so. Before this thread I thought that I didn't
need a religion but now I realise that the flying spagetti monster is the religion for me. I see God in it.
"But he demands, like the rich man in the story, that I do everything for him."
No, I demand that you should backup your claims. I mean is it difficult to mention a single one of the thousands of evidence for God that you claim? Is it difficult to actually say who is the 5 worst massmurders?
I also think that you should stop talking about stuff that you dont know anyting about. Like saying that an atheist cant have a fullfilling life.
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Blight
Social climber
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I am starting to be convienced that christianity is a very good religion for me when I see how nice you answer me
Good! I don't think you'd do very well as a christian - christianity requires a lot of thinking, questioning and learning. It's really not suited to people like you who want everything hand delivered on a sliver plate in a nice simple format.
You have no idea whatsover what I have done.
Ha! Ha! Ha!
If you'd looked, you would have found evidence. The fact that you pretend not to know where to look and to have found none proves that you didn't bother looking.
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Blight
Social climber
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I also think that you should stop talking about stuff that you dont know anyting about. Like saying that an atheist cant have a fullfilling life.
Really?
I used to be an atheist.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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i'm pagan agnostic.
i deny the existence of many gods.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Was it Bush (Sr.) who convinced you to switch?
I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic.
Seriously...is W. a CINO or a "real one"?
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Blight
Social climber
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Got any other sources than "Table Talk"?
Got any proof that what I quoted was not said by AH?
Even Marx, Stalin and Lenin knew that religion was a useful tool to control the masses - just as hitler did. I doubt anyone would seriously say they were religious though, and neither was hitler.
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Blight
Social climber
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deny the existence of many gods.
Ha! Ha! Ha!
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Yeah, most historians find your singular source to be erroneous. Do you have any "file footage" of him saying that...cause many of the quotes above "Lord and Savior" are actually recorded.
I'm going off of "what he said"...you are not. Your source is hearsay at best.
Take a stab at my question there, I'm curious about your answer...
I'll concur that religion is used to bring the masses to war though...
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Blight
Social climber
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Ah yes, discounting the evidence on the basis that you've not seen it first hand. Desperate but amusing... I guess that you think the world's flat, not having seen its cruve from space yourself!
AHAHAHAHAHAAAA!
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Blight
Social climber
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Okay, I can live with that.
I think that a single source - the person who said it - is pretty good for spoken words.
I guess that's not good enough for you? Fine!
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Just like I don't count on the "NYT" as a "be all end all"...
Not gonna stab at my question? Disappointing....
...here is one problem of your singular source...TT...
Thus, there are three sources in German for the Table-Talk: the Bormann Notes copy of Genoud, which contains the full brunt of Bormann's editings; the fragment of the Bormann Notes in the Library of Congress; and the limited German text of Picker.
Today, according to Richard Carrier and other sources, there are four main published versions of the Table-Talk. The first published was the German manuscript of Picker, which contains no entries subsequent to August 1942, and has only five months of entries which Picker attests are free of Bormann alterations. The second to be published was a French translation by Genoud of his copy of the Bormann Notes. The third was the English translation of Stevensand Cameron, edited by Trevor-Roper. This was a translation of the Genoud's French translation, and was not based upon the German. The fourth and last edition was a printing of Genoud's German original, prepared by Werner Jochmann.
Before we can begin to sort through whatever alterations Bormann himself may have made to the text, it first should be pointed out how faulty the Trevor-Roper edition is, and the Genoud French translation upon which it is based. Carrier has described the Trevor-Roper edition as "worthless," and in fact, he has shown that all of the major anti-Christian passages commonly cited by historians,including the three at the beginning of this chapter, are frauds and are not contained in the original German, in his article "Hitler's Table-Talk: Troubling Finds."
Much more...
http://www.liesexposed.net/nfp/tabletalk/tabletalk.html
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Blight
Social climber
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Looks like your "source" says "Hitler was a Vegetarian"
And?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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and it looks like your quotes are faulty...
Now W, you figure he's a CINO or the real deal?
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Blight
Social climber
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Wow, a pro-atheist web site selling a book saying that hitler wasn't an atheist! How convincing!
Good job there's no bias there or I'd be skeptical!
Oh, and you might want to have a look at what else your source publishes. I like this excerpt from their coverage of the earthquake in seattle:
"Gangs of ferocious blacks roamed the streets attacking white people, beating them unmercifully and robbing them...A perfect example of how the Jews attempted to manipulate the facts was the announcement that three-fourths of the Mardi Gras crime suspects identified were black. To get this lower figure, all those arrested for public drunkenness and disorderly conduct, etc., and classified as white or non-negroid mongrel".
That article gets worse (a lot worse actually). And you questioned my source?
Wow.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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This should sound familiar...
Ah yes, discounting the evidence on the basis that you've not seen it first hand. (the original German document) Desperate but amusing... I guess that you think the world's flat, not having seen its cruve from space yourself!
AHAHAHAHAHAAAA!
...mysteriously enough, no original documents or recordings of Table Talk can be found......
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Blight
Social climber
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426, you're way out of your depth here mate. Give it up already.
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Burden of proof's on you now...I got Mein Kampf, recorded speeches and even some old file footage. You got a source with "no source"...
But I give up, as the Di'Neh say, you can't awaken a man who pretends to sleep...
Take a stab at my question (W a CINO or a real one?), really curious about your answer...
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Blight
Social climber
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W a CINO or a real one?
I have no idea what this means. Could you write it in english please? What is "W", a "CINO" and a real what?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Is Bush a "Christian in Name Only" or a real one?
D'ya figure the Pope had one of these...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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.
i believe w is in bed w/satan.
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raymond phule
climber
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"Good! I don't think you'd do very well as a christian - christianity requires a lot of thinking, questioning and learning. It's really not suited to people like you who want everything hand delivered on a sliver plate in a nice simple format."
Strange i thought the complete opposite in this matter.
I belive that christianity is good for people that want something to belive without having to think.
You are kind of typical for a christian when you dont answer any serious questions. The faith cant be questioned.
I works as a researcher and it is necessary that I question things in everyday life. This is in bad agreement with the faith not questioning religion you praise.
"You have no idea whatsover what I have done.
Ha! Ha! Ha!
If you'd looked, you would have found evidence. The fact that you pretend not to know where to look and to have found none proves that you didn't bother looking."
Blight is it difficult to understand that people dont belive that the bible is evidence for God? I have read articles for the bible and I have read articles against the bible.
"I also think that you should stop talking about stuff that you dont know anyting about. Like saying that an atheist cant have a fullfilling life."
Really?
I used to be an atheist. "
Ok, you had a bad life as an atheist but you still have no clue about other peoples life.
"Even Marx, Stalin and Lenin knew that religion was a useful tool to control the masses - just as hitler did."
Yes, because many religous people base their opinions on faith instead of reason. It is very easy to contol people like blight.
The authors of the bible might have realised that religion was a good way to control the masses.
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Blight
Social climber
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Is Bush a "Christian in Name Only" or a real one?
I don't know and I don't care.
It's not up to me to judge President Bush's relationship with God. I have compassion for him just as I have for everyone; whether he's a "real" christian has no bearing at all on that.
Why do you care?
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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You say Hitler used religion to do his bidding, correct?
I can even abide by the fact that whether Hitler was Xian is not particularly relevant, but how he used Xianity to "rid liberal excess" (verbatim) is...
I should've guessed you wouldn't know or care.
My apologies...just don't count me in on the "Crusade"...to me, a Christian (PBUH) turns the other cheek...and that's why "I care"...
But I bet someone can pull a quote from the bible that refutes that whole "turn the cheek" notion....
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Blight
Social climber
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I belive that christianity is good for people that want something to belive without having to think.
Ha! Ha! Ha!
You haven't even stirred yourself to search the web. Christians go to church, attend study groups, read their bible and concordance and organise discussions, research courses and guest speakers.
You're really not suited for christianity; learning is an integral part of it. All you're doing is spouting your pathetic prejudices without bothering to check whether they're right.
Blight is it difficult to understand that people dont belive that the bible is evidence for God?
Again, you only show your ignorance. If you try looking for evidence you'll find that the bible is only one small part of it - there are entire libraries full of other evidence which has nothing to do with the bible.
Ok, you had a bad life as an atheist but you still have no clue about other peoples life.
I had an excellent life as an atheist, actually, and I enjoyed it a great deal. But it never came close to my quality of life as a christian.
The authors of the bible might have realised that religion was a good way to control the masses.
No, as I said, christians learn, discuss and debate all the time. Look at almost any church's schedule and you'll find dozens of studies, sermons, lectures, forums, groups and newsletters which they use in addition to their own private learning.
But as I also said, I don't think you're cut out for that. You should really just forget about it - go back to trying to convince yourself that you're doing okay and your incessant questioning about God doesn't mean you're at all interested.
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Crag
Trad climber
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Why?
Becasue when evil stands before a group of children bound at the feet with a gun pointed directly at the backs of their head.....
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raymond phule
climber
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"You haven't even stirred yourself to search the web. Christians go to church, attend study groups, read their bible and concordance and organise discussions, research courses and guest speakers."
Yes and so what? You haven't answered my questions. You haven't showed we to a single proff of God. You haven't answered me why religion seems to be very dependent on where (and when) you live. You might be interested in talking and discusing details in the bible and equal things. But I still have the feeling that the main questions is not open for questions. My girl friend attended a christian school and sayes the same thing.
Talking about for example moral issues is not only for christians. A lot of philosophers have thought about this outside religion. Jesus definitely has some good points and it is a pity that bad things happens in his name.
"You're really not suited for christianity; learning is an integral part of it."
I have read more books than most people an a lot of different subjects. You just assume that I dont care (as usual).
"All you're doing is spouting your pathetic prejudices without bothering to check whether they're right."
You are the one with most prejudice in this case.
"Again, you only show your ignorance. If you try looking for evidence you'll find that the bible is only one small part of it - there are entire libraries full of other evidence which has nothing to do with the bible."
For the probably 198328943 time. Cant you show me a single one of these?
""The authors of the bible might have realised that religion was a good way to control the masses."
No, as I said, christians learn, discuss and debate all the time. Look at almost any church's schedule and you'll find dozens of studies, sermons, lectures, forums, groups and newsletters which they use in addition to their own private learning."
Your comment doesn't have anything to do with my question.
I know about religous dogma. How people discuss and try to make everything add toghether. That parts of the bible have dissapeared. I consider this as a philosopical system with some underliying dogmas that cant be questioned. The importance of different parts change with time. How many different version of the christian faith do it exist now? 1478783 maybe? Which one is correct?
Just becuase people discuss some parts doesn't prove the underlying dogmas.
"But as I also said, I don't think you're cut out for that."
No, I cant by the underlying dogmas without any evidence. I see no reason to belive in them. I am much more interested in learning about more open minded peoples theories.
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Blight
Social climber
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You haven't showed we to a single proff of God.
If you really want it, you'd go get it yourself. But you don't go get it, do you? No, you sit and demand that I spoon feed you like a fat, spolied child,and you sulk when I don't.
I have read more books than most people an a lot of different subjects.
And yet mysteriously you refuse to read books about God. In fact you refuse point blank to learn for yourself; you demand that I provide you with what you want. Some intellectual you are!
For the probably 198328943 time. Cant you show me a single one of these?
And for the 198328943 time: go find it yourself if you're really interested. If you're not interested in genuine learning, quit asking.
I consider this as a philosopical system with some underliying dogmas that cant be questioned. The importance of different parts change with time. How many different version of the christian faith do it exist now? 1478783 maybe? Which one is correct?
Uh, if we weren't allowed to question doctrine, there would only be one version of christianity. There are many versions precisely because we're allowed to question anything about it and come to our own conclusions.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Dear Gentlemen, Thank you for a stimulating and enlightening night in Friendship Land. (Lurkergirl needs to sleep now) Wish you all a deep sleep and a sweet dream when the long party's over.
Godspeed! (Yes, I'm still a believer)
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Blight
Social climber
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:)
Heh.
And sweet dreams to you too.
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phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
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Blight:
A lot of the trouble is that things you take as evidence, lots of other people just take as mythology, same as you do with the Vedas or the Edda, for instance.
Generally, when you start thinking you've found the one true way, thinking you're special, you're probably wrong. That goes for just about everybody, regardless of belief system.
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ewto
Mountain climber
My mommy's tummy
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Holy cow... this got nasty, didn't it?
My simplistic position on it is this:
"Why do so many people believe in God?
Because He's THERE.
Every time I sit on top of a peak and look around me, I can see Him. Every time I look at something as "simple" as a tree growing in my front yard, I see Him. When I watch my children grow or my parents age, I see Him.
When I fell thirty feet and hit the deck, I damn near got to meet Him...
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Near a mountain, CA
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Would I cross the line if thought God didn't exist?
I probably would have a different definition of the "line" without my parents' religious teachings. Yet, there still will be a "line" I would not cross.
I wouldn't cross it for my own sanity. Having a line between what I think is bad and good is just a way of making life simpler. I need to feel comfortable with what I am doing and know that it causes no one else pain. I have a sense of empathy and fairness that has always guided me. It is something I've created out of dialogue and logic which is also one of my culture's traditions.
The line I live by is enforced by my own sense of responsibility towards doing what is right. When I am in the wrong, it is not the people that I hurt that injures me. It is the idea that I hurt people that trusted me to be better then that which makes me feel horrible.
I've been there, didn't like it, don't want to visit.
Plus, I do hear echoes of my father's teachings during such times and I am afraid of finding out what the road leads to if I stay on such a path. I won't need God's wrath to give myself a bad life. I can do that myself and that keeps me from crossing the line.
Now just add that with the idea of God also giving me a share of my own mistakes in my afterlife...
Yeah... It has me thinking... Who doesn't wonder about what happens after this existence?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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I can't believe that some people have actually posted lengthy tomes like I would normally write. I'm so pleased to see it.
BTW, I have read all the posts so far, so I'm up to speed on this NON-climbing thread.
Everything so far in this discussion is quite standard; same old arguments and presuppositions from both sides. Nothing particularly wrong with that, as far as it goes.
Rather than to wax "philosophical," I'll contribute just my own experience.
Studying philosophy, I found ample reason to doubt my earlier theism. I went through a period of many years as an agnostic. Intellectual honesty mattered (and matters) most to me, and I tried to adopt views according to the weight of evidence.
One of the main things of interest to philosophers is the nature of evidence itself. "Weight of evidence" is a pretty empty phrase without getting clear on what counts as evidence in different contexts. There is an amazing amount of presumption in the actual disciplines that employ "evidence" (religions are not alone in this morass).
Asking for "proof" in a discussion like this is even nuttier than looking for "weight of evidence." PROVE to me that the floor is going to be there when you next go to step forward. PROVE to me that you have hands! One of the biggest confusions in a discussion like this is not getting clear about what SORT of evidence even counts, and how weighty that sort of evidence can even be.
Learning about what is "evidence" and what is "proof" is fundamental to thinking philosophically, and it was my early learning on this subject that led me to be an agnostic.
Entering grad school, the deep study of ethics was very revealing. Ethical anti-realism/subjectivism has fallen out of favor among philosophers for very good reasons. Most of us are after realistic/objective accounts now. I quickly found that authority-based accounts, and among them "divine command" theories, provide a host of advantages not enjoyed by secular theories. The "best explanation" in ethics seemed to me to favor theism (although not for the reasons I've heard so far in this thread).
Perhaps theoretical beauty isn't sufficient grounds for most, but many people, scientists included, rely upon this aspect of theories all the time (read Steven Wienberg, for example). For my part, I was suspicious of "running home to mama" by returning to theistic thinking without a fight. But on many fronts I found that, as Philip Quinn (past APA President) has said, "Theists have gotten the better of the argument."
In short, there are a host of phenomena ranging from consciousness to abstract objects for which a theistic account seems to provide the best range of approaches and answers. I've read Dawkins and Dennett (among many others) carefully and thoroughly, and I along with top philosophers (such as Saul Kripke) simply don't find their approach worse than a punt. About mind, for example, simply denying the phenomenon isn't on the same level of an "account" as acknowledging and explaining the phenomenon.
I could ramble on and on, but for now, I can say that intellectual honesty, employed in the setting of one of the top philosophy grad programs in the country, has brought me back to theism (with significant caution and resistence, btw). I don't think I'm being arrogant to say that my Ph.D. gives me some credence to assert that I've done a lot of looking around on the subject. I'm a philosopher first, a theist second, a Christian third, and a Seventh-day Adventist fourth. (Oh, btw, on the little survey linked to earlier, I scored 100% as a Seventh-day Adventist, so at least I answered as the site expected SDAs to answer, for whatever that's worth.)
I'll end with this thought. I hear a lot of the same sort of fallacy in this thread so far. It takes a form like this: "There is lots of disagreement about x. So, if you think you're right about x, then you are probably wrong." Another iteration of it is this: "There is lots of disagreement about x. So, there is probably no genuinely right answer about x."
Both iterations are appeals to ignorance. Nuff said.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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To address the thread-opening question: "Is it logical to believe in something that cannot be proved?" As I noted briefly earlier, this question is ABOUT the nature of evidence and proof. You "logically" (which in this context must mean "reasonably") believe in lots of things you can't "prove."
In fact, the vast majority of "knowledge" you have concerns things you can't prove. Do you have parents? Do you have a past? Do you have hands? Is water wet? Is grass green? Will your car turn left the next time you turn the wheel left? You have "knowledge" about the answers to all these questions, and you live and act as though that knowledge is reasonable and secure. But you can't PROVE that your ideas are correct on any of these subjects.
Believing in God is no more and no less an exercise in examining "weight of evidence" than any of the above questions. And in almost all cases, the weight of evidence could go numerous ways, depending upon what you emphasize as "weighty."
One thing I will vehemently resist, as a trained philosopher, is the hyperbolic sort of claim made by the likes of Dawkins to the effect that theists/Christians are simply ignorant or nutty. I am neither, I am both a theist and a Christian, and I have GOOD reason for my beliefs.
Of course, explaining those reasons is a multi-book-length project. So, tempted as I am to break my post-length record (which is already prodigious), I'll let that go.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Whatever works for you.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Just a little food for thought:
Lets say you took a sample (assuming this was possible) of the most charismatic and special 4 year old kids from 1000 years ago and asked them if Romantic Love existed and what sex had to do with it.
What could they say? Would they really understand?
In a similar way, us humans are stuck here the darkness, living in piles of meat.
The existance of God and God's nature is not dependent on the opinion of purity or corruption of great men or the world religions or the fact that we can't see beyond our material world
Peace
Karl
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
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If you deny the reality of what you cannot perceive:
Does atomic structure exist?
Love?
we really do choose to believe, or not to, and persue info along our chosen course.
I remember a guy who worked for me, Brandon, we walked through the alter room under the huge boulder on the short hike to human sacrifice (the route) The feeling of darkness was so prevalent, he remarked, now I know there is a God, because now I know there is a Devil.
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Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
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Mungeclimber, you were right about faulty line of reasoning. I rechecked and modified my earlier post a bit as it related to consciousness.
After inspirtation from madbolter1 I remembered an argument I had with a friend that claimed "we can olny know things through science, and religion is about faith." By faith, he went wishing and hoping. I would say my faith is about "reasonable belief" and not wishing and hoping. If we only could know things through science, then we couldn't know or even make a claim about science unless we were using science-meaning philosophical statements about science are not science itself, so his claim is self-refuting.
Personally, I would much rather be a pantheist or believe that I am God or a god, so I can do whatever I want without guilt or shame. The problem is, I don't actually think pantheism is true. I am a Christian, not because I like it, it doesn't always resonate with me, it doesn't always make feel good, or give me a particular sense of comfort in fearing death. I am a Christian because I believe it is true. It might seem irrational that I put my trust in a man who claimed to be the Messiah and was slaughtered on a cross. But I believe he spoke to the human condition (suffering, sin, etc.) better then any other figure in history and offered the greatest love ever evidenced by anyone by living as a human being to pay the penalty we owed to God for us and offering us a rescue to our human plight. If you think Buddha, Mohammed, Vishnu, Krishna, or Richard Dawkins know and speak better to this issue and have evidence and good reasons to support what they calim is true, I would suggest you follow them as I would myself.
Jesus proved that what he said was true by raising himself from the dead. As far as I know, no other person has done that. I think it might be worthwhile to hear what he had to say about life and the kingdom of Heaven for that reason alone. Jesus asked his disciples once "who do say that I am?" I think that is the most important question you could ever ask and at the end of life if you miss Christ, you've missed the very source of life itself, and when you die you missed everything. There is lots of truth in other religions (golden rule, etc.) but only Christ offers a truth that will save us from death. He even showed that it possibble by raising Himself from the dead. Jesus, said "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me" (John 14:6).
If He is wrong, eat, drink, be merry, beleive in whatever resonates with you or makes you feel good and then you die.
If He is right then what he said to Martha in John 11:25 is true.
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Well, off to Eldo before the rain hits this afternoon, Cheers, AK
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 07:03pm PT
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None of you have presented any evidence that God exists.
I have to start to think you are just wasting my time.
Juan
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Nor have you presented any that He does not. Surely you are not popping off with a negative existential claim. So, what is the nature of the evidence you want to see? What I mean is: of what SORT is the evidence you will admit?
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Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
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Juan,
If you have a Bible (whether you trust it is God's word or not, Romans 1 and 2 give a good explation that creation itsef is evidence of God's existence and power). Here is one of the more meaty passages, Romans 1:18-20.
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood by what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
I don't know you or moral character, so I don't know if you are suppressing or just questioning the truth, trolling, or honestly interested in the question.
I think a good question to ask, however, similar to madbolter1's, is what evidence would it take to prove to you that God exists. If it is miracles or rising from the dead, look at Jesus. From a Christian perspective you can check out www.str.org (Stand to Reason) and type in a questioon/topic in the search and ususally find a well written/researched article on a variety of religious questions which good reasons to believe in God.
However, if everyone could answer all your questions to your satisfaction, would you believe in God (become a theist) and/or follow Christ? If the answer is no, all the evidence "in the world" wouldn't matter. Let me know what you think.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 08:41pm PT
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If you have no evidence why do you believe?
What purpose does it serve?
Is God some type of Psychological crutch when you suffer?
Do you really think an all loving all powerful God could sit by and let such evil roam the World?
If God is just sitting back and observing the carnage He is one twisted sick f*#k.
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 08:45pm PT
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I just proved God does not exist.
Wow.
JDF
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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To sharpen my question a bit: are you after scientific (i.e.: empirical) evidence? Are you after a deductive proof (for such are really the only "proofs")?
Could you prioritize your particular weighting of evidence? For example, would you prioritize this way: 1)deductive proofs; 2) experimentally verified, empirical statements; 3) cumulative case empirical arguments; 4) first-person observations; 5) anecdotal statements from third parties? Or something like that?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 08:55pm PT
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I do not think you can provide any evidence, but what ever you have will do.
Juan
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Uhhh... ok, Juan. Now I realize that this is a waste of my time. If your last two posts are to be believed, you really have no desire to think about this subject carefully.
There is a wealth of literature addressing the "problem of evil" (a trite rendition of which you mentioned). The problem of evil has been demonstrated (to educated, non-ignorant people) to have zero intellectual threat against theism. (The average person on the street, however, still finds it troubling.) The most famous and careful casting of the problem of evil was by Rachels, and that has been thoroughly decimated by Quinn (if you care to actually educate yourself on such matters).
It's easy to pop off with supposed theistic problems that are straw men or no longer seen as problems by people who think about such things for a living. It's as ridiculous as me saying something like, "Those stupid scientists. Anybody can see that fruit flys don't turn into whales!"
But... it's pretty clear at this point that you're not serious about this topic, so, I bid you good bye.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
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I am not interested in Philoshophical Mumbo Jumbo.
It would have to be physical proof of a creater.
If I was God I would have encoded it in the Big Bang Background.
I guess it comes down to
1. Did a creater create.
2. Does he take an active role in our lives.
3. Does he just like to watch.
Juan
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Hey Juan it's good that you are actually getting into this mano a mano with these theists, but if you keep it up they're eventually all going to tell you that you're just "not serious" and withdraw from the conversation, because, really, what else can they do? They Want To Believe. You want to know, and they can't give you that knowledge, because they don't have it themselves. They just have their will to believe, for various reasons, but it mostly boils down to denial of individual mortality. There is an entire industry of apologists who spin out endless reams of argument from authority on this unsubstantiated assertion that we can live forever, and that if we're good, we go to the big rock candy mountain in the sky. It helps to keep people in line, I'll give it that much. Some people like to read their horoscope for guidance every day, too. Whatever gets you through the dark night of the soul, I say. We'll all find out in the end. Treating one another decently while we're alive is just common sense because most of us prefer happiness to suffering. It's a no-brainer, and there's no need to dress it up in the form of divine commandments or anything else. Evil exists because some people are selfish stupid f*#ks. Simple as that.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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So many assume God's mind is no different from theirs, so they judge Him according to their own minds.
I would advise them to love themselves beyond all limits, forgive everybody for everything, and behold the beauty of this earth that God has given us.
At the least, it will bring great joy.
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Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
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JDF,
Actually, your proof that God doesn't exist because of all the evil in the world and the fact that he could stop it, I agree, is a good argument against the beleif in God. Roughly it is:
1) God is omnipotent (all-powerful)
2) God is wholly good
3) God is omniscient (all-knowing)
4) Evil exists
5) An omnipotent and omniscient good being eliminates every evil
that it can properly eliminate
6) Therefore, God is either not omipotent, wholly good, or all
knowing because he allows evil to exist
7) Therefore God does not exist
Alvin Platingna a philosophy profesor at Notre Dame addressed this issue and is known in the philosophy world for solving this argument from evil in his book, "God, Freedom, and Evil" (about 100 pages long) in what philosphers know as the Free Will Defense, which shows that the existence of God is compatible both logically and probabilistically, with the existence of evil.
Roughly speaking the argument is:
God is omniscient, omnipotent, and morally perfect; God has created the world; all the evil in the world is broadly moral evil (brought about by free agents-namely mankind); and there is no possible world God could have created that contains a better balance of broadly moral good with respect to broadly moral evil.
If we our to love God, it has to be a freely given and not coerced or forced. To allow this freedom, one has to be free to do good and free to do evil. If God values this freedom of choice that could be at least one explanation why he allows evil to happen without interfering.
There is also a chapter dealing with natural evils (floods, hurricanes, etc. that is good)
Juan, I am still curious to know one way or the other, if you had all your questions and evidences for God and Christianity answered to your satisfaciton would you become a theist and follow Christ?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2006 - 10:10pm PT
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I learned much from Jesus when I read the book a Course in Miracles. You should really check it out if you have a real interest in Christ.
Now I seek a different path to the East.
Juan
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Fear.
And I find the "you can't prove anything, so theism is as likely as anything" basis for belief not only highly dissatisfying, but - and I hate to join the other camp - nutty.
And Madbolter1, I have to express surprise at the description of your journey to the extent it seems inconceivable that anyone would have made it out to agnostic would then travel all the way back to Adventist. That smacks way more of inculturation and less of reason and logic. Now I can imagine logic and philosophy leaving one with a bent for theism, but to make it from a that general concept back to a specific implementation, particularly the one you started with? Well, that clearly had to have been objective voyage by any definition to have returned you back to your starting point.
And your background in philosophy no doubt lends itself to the intellectual hocus-pocus of skipping far simpler common sense levels of shared understanding that would, for most of us suffice for "proof" relative to there being any "real world" implementation of [anthropomorphic] theism. I personally find the idea beyond nutty - I find it a fear-based response to the the unknown and unknowable. It opens the door to the societal manipulations that separate peoples one from the other and acts as the root foundation of war and genocide.
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Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
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Juan, me too. I sought that different path out east as well! I moved out east to Colorado and am no longer in Cali. Ice season has already begun in RMNP, and there is still 80 deg days in Eldo as well!!
(no pun intended)
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mike
climber
tahoe city, ca.
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Cause and effects my friends.
In Ghasso
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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The curious thing about all this talk about God is that so few ever consider or can imagine that "God" can be encountered in other ways but through doctrine and beliefs. Most so-called spiritual paths are not built on beliefs or arguments or thoughts at all, but on practices that quiet your evaluating mind (i.e., the mind that evaluates what you already know). I suspect that most of those who demand proof would not bother to put in the difficult work to ever find out for themselves, hence their interest is by and large not so much an inquiry as an exercise to verify what they already believe: there is no "God." This natually leads to circular shuck-and-jive landing them exactly where they've been sitting all long.
I remember being at the LA Zen center years ago engaged in a discussion with an old Sensai and one student said, "I'm an athiest." The Sensai said, "Congratulations. Who are you and what is your life?"
JL
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2006 - 12:46am PT
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The problem to me is the Damm Paradox, How can anything be real or exist? How is it possible to have a creation. How is it possible to have a beginning.
The law of cause and effect requires a cause.
I cannot understand the nothingness that would precede a creation.
My mind can not comprehend it.
We must exist in some temporal loop of space time, no beginning, no end.
If I had a Bong this could get really good.
JDF
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2006 - 01:08am PT
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In our Universe particles suddenly appear out of nothingness.
How is that possible?
JDF
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The discussions of "deep" comsological and philosophical conundrums are a purposeful distraction in this discusion. I think Juan (and I'm almost frightened to say it) - and I - aren't looking for exotic proofs of logic; we're looking more for pedestrian and mundane "proofs" that clearly display the existence of an [anthropomorphic] diety.
Simple things - the modern day equivalent of a burning bush. Float the Washington Monument 100 meters in the air for a couple of days; rain loaves and fishes down on every Walmart parking lot in America at noon tomorrow; a day without deaths, births, or spam; write a message in the sky seen by all people and understood in all languages; resurrect JFK; etc., etc. Hell, turn my cat purple; my couch blue, or my Camry peach; bring home the troops; or, given I'm a pretty easy sell on the whole, having me climbing 5.14 without breaking a sweat for a day would suffice.
Again, I'm a simple guy with simple needs - no need for all these highly esoteric and complex explainations for why there are no simple concrete "proofs" that would be an undeniable shared experience among a number of people, recordable on video, and simple to understand.
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Hurricane
Trad climber
Eldorado Springs
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stzzo wrote:
I've heard Christians use this argument a lot. It doesn't prove that god exists - more like it attempts to prove that the "because there's evil" argument doesn't disprove god's existence.
Your exactly right and I agree with you 100%. Plantingna's argument doesn't prove that God exists but rather it shows that it is possible that the existence of evil doesn't disprove God's existence. That was the main point I was trying to make. Cheers!
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Blight
Social climber
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"Float the Washington Monument 100 meters in the air for a couple of days; rain loaves and fishes down on every Walmart parking lot in America at noon tomorrow; a day without deaths, births, or spam; write a message in the sky seen by all people and understood in all languages; resurrect JFK; etc., etc. Hell, turn my cat purple; my couch blue, or my Camry peach; bring home the troops; or, given I'm a pretty easy sell on the whole, having me climbing 5.14 without breaking a sweat for a day would suffice."
Demanding proof which you know doesn't exist (and you know because, well, you just made it up) is just an easy way out of looking at the evidence which is there.
After all, what better way to avoid getting answers you don't like than to say that you'll only accept specific imaginary ones which you do?
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Blight
Social climber
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In our Universe particles suddenly appear out of nothingness.
How is that possible?
Many things both in science and religion seem contradictory or impossible if you don't understand them.
But with a little effort and learning, you'll usually find that they're not really that difficult after all.
The mechanism whereby virtual (and real) particles "appear" out of disturbances in underlying quantum fields isn't really difficult or even very complicated. But you'd have to read, study and learn before you understood it.
You say you don't understand this principle, or how God could exist?
Well of course you don't. You won't listen, won't study and won't learn. Obviously unless you change that, you never will.
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raymond phule
climber
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Blight, whatever you say. It is impossibly to arguee anyting with you because you dont understand logic and becuase you think it is the other people fault when they dont understand something or is sceptical. It is like you are saying 2+2=5 and people dont belive you. They read and look and all their sourses claim that you are incorrect but you still claim that you are correct and that they just dont look hard enough. It is their fault that they cant understand that 2+2=5. You cant understand that people can get to a other result than you given the same sourses and that you might be wrong.
I might have wrong when I thought that christians dont questions though. I take that back.
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Blight
Social climber
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It is impossibly to arguee anyting with you because you dont understand logic and becuase you think it is the other people fault when they dont understand something or is sceptical.
So you think that I don't understand logic, and that must be my fault? But when you don't understand it, that's my fault too?
From that alone, it would seem that it's not me who has problems with logic and understanding.
You have the same simple problem as Juan. Of course you don't understand religion or God. You've refused point blank for the whole thread to go and learn about them for yourself. If a child refuses to go to school, is it the school's fault that he can't read or write?
To put it bluntly, if you refuse to study, you will remain ignorant. It's that simple.
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raymond phule
climber
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"So you think that I don't understand logic, and that must be my fault?"
You said that argument of concensous was a valid argument for example. I also gave a link and tried to explained it. What more can I do? You also doesn't seem to have a clue about who that is responsible to prove a claim. You never provide any evidence.
"But when you don't understand it, that's my fault too?"
A person claiming that it exist thousands of proofs is the person that should provide the proofs. A scientist that claim something should provide proof for the claim. This should also be obvious.
"From that alone, it would seem that it's not me who has problems with logic and understanding."
You clearly show once again that you doesn't understand logic and understanding.
"You have the same simple problem as Juan. Of course you don't understand religion or God. You've refused point blank for the whole thread to go and learn about them for yourself. If a child refuses to go to school, is it the school's fault that he can't read or write?"
Whos fault is it if the school just tell the children: Your homework is to learn to read and write. The students ask how I am I going to learn? It is up to you. It is not my job to teach you or explain how you are going to learn to read and write.
Ok, I do some research.
did a search for proof of god.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html
"The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning."
This is a strawman and is not true for all atheist. Thus all arguments follows doesn't prove that atheists are wrong.
"The atheist's assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect The Bible's assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence."
That science cant prove something doesn't prove that God exist.
I simple not by this kind of proof. I dont by all proof or evidence given by christians. Is that so difficult to understand?
"To put it bluntly, if you refuse to study, you will remain ignorant. It's that simple."
I have studied I just simply didn't get to the same conclusion as you.
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Blight
Social climber
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Whos fault is it if the school just tell the children: Your homework is to learn to read and write. The students ask how I am I going to learn? It is up to you. It is not my job to teach you or explain how you are going to learn to read and write.
I've told you where the school is. Get this through your thick head: I AM NOT YOUR TEACHER. THIS IS NOT A SCHOOL. I'm not teaching you because I don't want to, not because I can't.
If you want to learn, go to a place of learning. This is not it. Quit pretending that it must be impossible for you to learn because you spend your time bugging someone who's not a teacher in a place which isn't a school.
I have studied I just simply didn't get to the same conclusion as you.
That's not study. That's just petty nitpicking. Now if you were to take that article to a teacher, disuss it and learn from it, that would be study.
Oh and the idea that atheists believe there was no beginning is not a strawman, it's a inductive fallacy of generalisation. And Although that's a mistake, that doesn't make it completely wrong, let alone everything that follows it.
That science cant prove something doesn't prove that God exist.
Yes; thinking that's the case is called the "God of the gaps fallacy". However, if science didn't have such huge gaps, that fallacy wouldn't exist, would it?
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raymond phule
climber
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Richard, I definitely belive that you have done a lot of thinking :-) What are your area of philosophy by the way?
My view:
The first problem is the question of what can we actually know about the world. This is a very old philosphical question and my opinion is that we cant know anything at all. It is possibly that we live in a dream or in a computer program (like in the matrix movie). A pretty bad start for a researcher... but I dont belive that it is possibly to prove that we cant be fooled by are senses.
On the positive side is that the world seems to pretty consistent and seems to be governed by rules. The sun rise every day for example.
Thus we have problem with truth. Lets assume that we can trust our senses. Nothing really make sense if we cant.
When I look at the world I see no reason to belive that it exists a God. Not everyting is explained but most things are. Things that dont follows the rule of physics don't seems to happen (or atleast most of them dont seem to survive a scrutiny).
I see no reason to include a God in my view of the world. You and other say that you get a more consistent world if God exist. I belive that the difference in opinion might be because we have postulated different truths and that we want different results. For example you probably belive in some kind of soul, I dont.
Thus some people need an answer (often a nice answer) to questions like, what is the soul, what happens after death and is it a higher meaning of life. These questions might be easier to answer with a God if you want a "nice" answer but a God is not necessary if you dont care about those questions.
I have also read a couple of Dawkings books. The difference between how we read him seems to be that you belive that it exist something methaphysical about brain/consious. Dawking doesn't belive this and thus doesn't answer your questions about how the consious evolved. You doesn't seem to by his arguments because you want him to give an explaination of phenomena that not necessary exist.
I have a hard time to understand how questions on the foundations of knoweledge could be better explained by invoking a religion with metaphysical concepts like life after death.
A theory is not more true because the result is easier to take. It would be better if we would have a life after death but this cant be a argument for that it actually exist.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Healyje, I'm sympathetic to what you (and, I guess, Juan) are looking for in the way of evidence. I'll get to that in just a minute.
First, though, I'm disturbed by your idea that thinking carefully about a subject is "philosophical hocus-pocus." You cast the alternative as "common sense." But "common sense" tells us that the sun revolves around the Earth. "Common sense" tells us that when you put a pencil in a glass of water, it bends. And so on.
Your likely reply is that "common sense" in my two examples must include what we know about how the universe works. But wait! That sort of thinking is already way past "common sense." At that point, you're into theorizing about astronomy and refractive properties of light. While such "facts" have become "common knowledge," coming to believe in such "facts" are NOT "common sense," and they require significant education (indoctrination) to believe.
So, I submit that we all do a lot of "philosophical hocus-pocus" at all times as we try to decide how to interact with the world and what we shall believe about the phenomena that present themselves. The only question is how "deep" of "hocus-pocus" is needed to provide a sufficient explanation of observed phenomena.
You SAY that faith would have to rest upon evidences that are quite simple. But, you also sweepingly dismiss my lengthy and very careful intellectual journey, which dismissal can only serve to call into question my intellectual honesty. Perhaps I ended back up as a SDA because that belief system makes the most sense when you consider enough facets of enough world views. It is actually pretty amazing that I'm an SDA now, given how hard I resisted going back there, because I had the same suspicions of myself that you now have of me. But, honestly, the weight of evidence was convincing to me, and I did look at a lot of it.
However, I don't expect my journey to be compelling to you; I only shared it to dismiss this ongoing notion that one has to be simple-minded or have blind faith to be a Christian or theist. I am far from alone in my philosophical theism, and in fact many of the top philosophers on this planet are theists for similar reasons that I am: the cumulative case arguments in favor of it overwhelm the alternatives.
But, you don't want to hear about all that "hocus-pocus," so here's a "simple" evidence. I predict, however, that despite its simple force, you will find many reasons to dismiss it as well, which goes to make my point that "simple" evidences are not actually so simple after all. Well, here goes....
When I was ten or eleven, my family went to visit my Grandma. The cousins, my two sisters, and I were playing tag in the front yard. My youngest sister, who was about six or seven, was running away from "it." She was running with her mouth open, laughing, looking back over her shoulder, and she turned to look where she was running just as she ran straight into a large yucca plant.
One of the stiff spines drove entirely through her tongue and pierced the back of her throat. She stood there screaming, and then started gasping for air. My cousin and I pulled her back off the spine, as the others ran to report the accident.
We bent my sister forward to keep the blood from pouring down her throat, and stumbled to the house.
The entire family gathered around, and my mom ran to my sister. My mom, I, and my sister made it into the bathroom, leaving pools of blood as we went. In the bathroom, my mom got a washcloth wet with cold water and pressed it hard against my sister's tongue, trying to slow the bleeding before we drove to the hospital.
The extended family crowded around in the hallway talking in horrified whispers, and most of them could see into the bathroom to watch what was happening. Most of them had seen the fact that my sister's tongue was virtually cleaved in two.
Mom began to pray out loud that God would help my sister to be strong and that He would make the upcoming hospital (stiching)experience as little traumatic as possible. Then she pulled the washcloth away from my sister's tongue to check the bleeding.
The wound was completely gone. My sister brightened and said, "It doesn't hurt any more."
The extended family was amazed. I was amazed. I mean, I was standing right next to her, and I was looking right into her mouth when my mom pulled the washcloth away.
Mom decided to take her to the hospital anyway, fearing how much blood she had swallowed and wanting her to be checked out.
I was there during the examination, and the doctor reported that he could find no evidence of the wound we described, except for a small, round scar in the back of my sister's throat. She had that scar into adulthood, and she might still have it today. I don't know.
Now, hearing this story you have lots of alternatives. You might say that my memory isn't serving me well, since I was just a kid when I saw all this. Maybe I'm embellishing, you might say. Ok, well, there's "embellishing" and then there's outright lying. Even if you conclude that I might not have every detail right, you should use some "common sense" to decide a few things: 1) I'm not just outright lying, because, given my belief system, I wouldn't risk my eternal life over such a lie; 2) it would be insane for me to lie in an effort to convince you of the truth of a belief system that I knew was based upon a lie; 3) I did witness a horrible injury, and that injury was enough like I remember it that it left a scar in the back of my sister's throat; 3) I did witness my mom pray, and I did witness that the horrible wound was healed immediately after that prayer; 4) I did witness the doctor state that he could find no damage to my sister's tongue when he examined her.
Other alternatives. You can say, "Well, ok, I'll grant that something unusual happened, but surely there's a scientific explanation for it." Fine, but now you are NOT after "simple" evidence after all. If you take this tack, you have officially abandoned "common sense" and are already deep in the realm of "philosophical hocus-pocus." In such a case, I could give you tons of reasons (a lengthy project) why a purely naturalistic paradigm fails, but, again, this begs the question against "common sense." And such investigation, if you are honestly interested in the truth, is easy to conduct on your own; there are carefully written volumes by extremely credible thinkers against a purely naturalistic paradigm.
You might say, "Fine, some sort of apparently supernatural 'god' or 'power' helped your sister, but why think that 'god' is anything like the Judeo-Christian God?" Ahh, yes, and here we note again how impossible it is for ANY "simple" evidence to get the job done. The more "simple" an evidence is, the more questions it leaves unanswered! Of course, "common sense" would say, "Well, duh! His mom prayed to the Judeo-Christian God, by name, and He answered. How much more 'simple' does it need to get?" But, I suspect that at this point you will reinterpret what counts as "common sense."
You might say, "Ok, if the Judeo-Christian God healed your sister, then why does He allow so MANY other horrors to take place? It makes no sense and isn't fair that He would answer your mom's prayer and not the prayers of so many others!" Again, though, such a statement is WAY outside the realm of the "simple" or the "common sense." Answering such an objection just IS the realm of "philosophical hocus-pocus." Yet, in your sweepingly dismissive way, you have disallowed the very sorts of arguments that could provide the account your objection begs for. How convenient! By your definition of the rules of the game, you have ruled out the very sort of discussion that could address this issue. And, again, the point is clear that even an event as startling as the story I have told isn't sufficient to provide "simple" evidence.
You might say, "Now I see why YOU have some good reason to believe, but the event happened to YOU. I'm waiting for something like that sort of evidence to happen to ME! If I saw something like that first-hand, then I would believe too!"
Probably not. I say that because of observing how my extended family reacted over time. A few of them became believers for a short while and even attended church weekly. But the old lifestyle of smoking, drinking, gambling, etc. quickly pulled them back in, and the effect of the event was swallowed up in the old lifestyle. Just before my Grandma died, I asked her if she remembered the event. She said that she did, but it seemed distant, like a story she had heard, like it was almost a family myth; and the myth had lost its force.
I can't avoid spewing a bit of "philosophical hocus-pocus" here, because the fact that so many witnesses to the event came to ignore it reveals a few things about how faith works.
God does not reveal Himself more startlingly to most people because He values free will above all things in the universe. Let's say that He came down in glory and power, stood right before you, performed astounding miracles, and proclaimed, "I am God, the Creator, the God of the Bible." Would THAT be sufficient evidence to convince you? Would THAT be simple enough?
Well, it shouldn't be! How do you know that this being is really God rather than just some very powerful alien? There is nothing about such a display that can (or should) convince you of the truth of the propositional content of His claim. Instead, such a display would be a blatant attempt to manipulate you, to cow you into submission, to COMPEL you to believe. And yet, even such a forceful display, as manipulative as it would be, SHOULD not convince you because there are so many other alternatives.
God is a gentleman when it comes to approaching His free-thinking creatures. He DOES provide ample evidence to those who are honestly seeking Him, although He is careful to not compel on any level. He says, "You will find me when you seek for me with your whole heart," and that is because He will not stoop to manipulative tactics, nor will He stoop to begging you with demonstrations.
So, why did He answer my mom's prayer, when He could answer so many other prayers and thereby "prove" Himself? First, He doesn't usually answer prayers to "prove" anything. We already believed, and He simply honored that belief with His answer. My extended family were disinclined to believe, and they soon found ways to distance themselves from the event so that it lost its impact on their lives. We didn't view the event as a reason TO believe, and my extended family didn't find the event sufficient to produce faith.
In the vast majority of cases, even first-hand witnessing of a miracle isn't sufficient to arouse genuine faith! Instead, praying for that sort of "proof" merely attempts to get God to come to you, hat in hand, and beg you with more and more impressible displays: "Is THIS enough? No? Ok, how about THIS?"
The evidence is there, although it is neither "simple" nor "common sense" to recognize it. Faith requires searching with an entire and honest heart. If you do engage in such a search, I am confident that God will hear and answer THOSE prayers.
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raymond phule
climber
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"I don't want to, not because I can't."
Sure... that argument works well in the real world.
"If you want to learn, go to a place of learning. This is not it. Quit pretending that it must be impossible for you to learn because you spend your time bugging someone who's not a teacher in a place which isn't a school."
Everything you say assume that you and your faith is true. I cant do something or learn something until I get to the same conclusion as you. It doesn't matter how god my arguments are and how many references to people that agree with me that I show. I am still dont get it before I agree with you.
""I have studied I just simply didn't get to the same conclusion as you."
That's not study. That's just petty nitpicking. Now if you were to take that article to a teacher, disuss it and learn from it, that would be study."
Se above.
"Oh and the idea that atheists believe there was no beginning is not a strawman, it's a inductive fallacy of generalisation."
The article made and killed a strawman. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html
"And Although that's a mistake, that doesn't make it completely wrong, let alone everything that follows it. "
They killed a strawman. Not everything is wrong but most conclusions are. The also dont understand evolution.
"However, if science didn't have such huge gaps, that fallacy wouldn't exist, would it?"
yes, why not? It is enough that people belive that it is gaps in science to invoke it. Most people arguing that evolution didn't happen have no clue about evolution theory.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Raymond, thank you for your post. I appreciated it.
I should set the record straight, though. I don't have faith because I need answers to issues like souls, eternal life, and other religious trappings like that.
The things that I think need accounts are things like abstract objects, self-consciousness (which is not a phenomenon that cannot be "explained" by in effect denying it, as Dennett does; and reductive/eliminative materialism is a dismal failure), objective moral facts, the existence of natural languages, and so on. Unlike "souls" or "eternal life" or such things, the things that I'm interested in are common currency. We encounter these things every day, and they are part of our shared world view. It's our ACCOUNTS of them that differ.
You are right to note the skeptical problem introduced by matrix-like scenarios. But I believe that the response to such scenarios is not properly an appeal to God, who makes everything turn out ok for us so we don't get too deceived. Instead, I am very Kantian in my response to skepticism (but that's too vast a topic to discuss in this venue); I only mention Kant to point people to a line of fruitful research. One of my undergraduate professors was/is an internationally known scholar (and an atheist), and she said, "Much of the thrutching around in philosophy today results from people not understanding Kant. So they keep attempting to address issues that he laid to rest already." I think she was largely right about that.
Anyway, it seems that you're still looking at all the evidence, and that's all any philosopher could hope for. I hope for it for myself on an ongoing basis too. May we someday meet somewhere close to the truth!
edit: and you are certainly correct about most people not actually understanding evolutionary theory!
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Blight
Social climber
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Sure... that argument works well in the real world.
This IS the real world you twit.
Everything you say assume that you and your faith is true.
Uh, no Raymond, I believe that my faith is true because I've been and am going through the learning process. You need to make your own decision by learning too. But you haven't and won't go through it, instead substituting shouting at a passer-by - me - that they are WRONG WRONG WRONG because they won't give you knowledge on a plate.
The article made and killed a strawman.
*sigh*
No it didn't. The article said, "The atheist has always maintained that there was no beginning". Some atheists have always maintained that. Therefore it is not a straw man, which sets up an argument your opponent has never used then attacks it. It's just a generalisation which is largely but not completely incorrect.
The also dont understand evolution.
The article doesn't mention evolution. Not once. So your attack on the author's understanding of it really is a strawman.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2006 - 09:41am PT
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Blight,
Why? Still no good evidence?
JDF
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Blight
Social climber
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Juan, why what?
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raymond phule
climber
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""The also dont understand evolution."
"The article doesn't mention evolution. Not once. So your attack on the author's understanding of it really is a strawman."
The section named design is clearly about evolution.
Whatever, I think that the article is crap due to many logical errors. You probably think it is a good article and you are going to call me a twit until I think it is a good article.
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Blight
Social climber
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The section named design is clearly about evolution.
Uh no, the setion named "design" is clearly about design.
And no, I don't particularly rate the article. But then again I didn't bring it up. If I had, I'd have taken a little time to attack the eproblems that are in it instead of making up new ones.
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raymond phule
climber
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""The section named design is clearly about evolution."
Uh no, the setion named "design" is clearly about design."
Whatever you say. The word evolution didn't exist in the article, not the word inteligent design either. So it cant be pro ID and against evolution. No, it cant. That would assume that the reader had some reading comprehension.
"The atheist, on the other hand, will try to convince us that we are the product of chance"
Cant have something to do with evolution... No it cant be a statement based on a missunderstanding of evolution that ID people use all the time because the word evolution is not in the sentence.
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Blight
Social climber
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Cant have something to do with evolution... No it cant be a statement based on a missunderstanding of evolution that ID people use all the time because the word evolution is not in the sentence.
Looks like you're reading your own prejudices into it. It doesn't say ID and it doesn't say evolution. You might see similar content, but anything else is just a straw man.
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Clarke Brogger
Mountain climber
Laguna Beach, Ca
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oooohhh Corpdog, so profound.
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Tao Climber
climber
Milky Way
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OK ENOUGH IS ENOUGH......THIS IS A FRIGGING CLIMBING FORUM NOT A METAPHYSICAL, SPIRITUAL OR PHILOSOPHICAL ONE....UNLESS OF COURSE WERE TALKING ABOUT CLIMBING ETHICS, STYLES ETC. ALSO....THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL FORUM. I AM SO SICK OF SIFTING THROUGH FIVE FORUMS TO FIND ONE THAT HAS ANYTHING REMOTELY TO DO WITH CLIMBING.......I KNOW THIS FALLS ON DEAF EARS, BUT FOR GOD SAKES SPARE ME ALL THIS GOD TALK ON A CLIMBING FORUM.....................AAAARRRRRGGGHHHHH.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Madbolter1,
I don't dismiss exercises in logic or the result of philisophical explorations. I simply find them unsatisfactory in that they [typically] bypass the simple and the obvious with deliberate intent. If they did not do so I would be far more inclined to accept them at face value. Where you and others so inclined paint all such "simple" and "obvious" answers no differently than the perceptions of a mob attempting to fish the moon out of a pond with pitchforks is where we part company.
Now that you claim [anecdotably] to have experienced the full measure of a road from "simple" and "obvious" to intellectual rigor is to your credit. But your story is still anecdotal, personal, and unverifiable in a way that a layer of rotting loaves and fishes fifty feet deep in every Walmart parking lot in America would not be. And why wouldn't we still be able to exercise free will in the presence of clear, simple, and obvious "proof" that an anthropomorphic theistic diety existed? Religious fundamentalists are claiming one does and we still manage to operate with free wills - I don't get what's the inherent problem with a simple verification on a generationally periodic basis?
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pyro
Social climber
I'm not telling,
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more like lets work on good manners. this poetry is B.S. people become the best, "Tape recorders" when they want attention, soo stupid are your ethics.
keep it real+ don't steal, don't lie, don't hit, don't hate, etc. were all working toward an excellent society. Instead we act like a cast away on some dried up island.
faith will make you the beliver in any God, but mind who watches you. Keep the poetry authentic.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Healyje, the observation of some buried leaves or fishes is exactly the same sort of observation as the observation of the event of my sister's tongue being healed: empirical. The issue at hand is interpretation.
You seem to want to distinguish between "facts" (like a fish being buried in a certain layer of sediment) and "events" (like my sister's tongue being healed, or my personal intellectual journey). If I understand you correctly, on your model the former are "verifiable," while the latter are "personal... unverifiable."
I do want to clarify that I never intended my intellectual journey to be "verifiable" or to act as evidence. My only point in mentioning it was to respond to the notion that all Christians are ignorant, stupid, or blind in their faith. So, I would prefer to address your distinction in terms of the contrast between buried fishes and miracles.
For our purposes, though, this is a distinction without a difference. In the exact same way that everybody who OBSERVES a buried fish can say, "There's a buried fish," everybody who OBSERVES a healing can say, "There's no wound where a second ago there was one." BOTH are "facts" in that both are features of reality that can be observed. Again, the issue is in how these observed facts are interpreted.
Earlier, you or Juan (I don't remember which) asked for something simple and obvious, like a burning bush. My point is that what we MAKE of buried fishes, burning bushes, or healing events is where the rubber meets the road. There are no "facts" in a vacuum. All observation is loaded with the baggage of theory and interpretation. So, I'm honestly baffled about what sort of "simple" or "obvious" evidence you expect.
For more fruitful future discussion, I need to get clear on two points: 1) What do you make of a miracle story like I told? 2) Can you give a particular simple or obvious evidence that would be sufficient to indicate God's existence?
Thank you in advance.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dingus, I appreciate your candor, and there is no offense taken. Of course, if I have to doubt my senses at that level, then, well... let's just say I shouldn't be driving (or climbing, for that matter)!
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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"I got a feeling and it wont go away, oh no,
Just one thing and then I'll be okay:
I need a miracle every day."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Madbolter1: "For more fruitful future discussion, I need to get clear on two points: 1) What do you make of a miracle story like I told? 2) Can you give a particular simple or obvious evidence that would be sufficient to indicate God's existence?"
1) I have no way of verifying your miracle nor does anyone I know. That's the problem with all such stories. Typically in all such anecdotal incidents there is a lack of a "threshold of witness" to the miracle. By "threshold of witness" I mean not enough people saw or experienced it for it to be universally accepted as "truth" or a "proof".
2) Now I agree that intepretation is a significant hurdle and hence the desire for simplicity and scale. Simplicity for easy and common understanding; scale to overcome deniability. So my example: God completely filling every Walmart parking lot in America to a depth of fifty or one hundred feet with loaves and fishes at 6pm tomorrow night would accomplish both. Loaves and fishes would leave no doubt as to who sent the message; instantly filling every Walmart parking lot in America with identical fishes and loaves would represent a highly public and logistically impossible feat that overcomes deniability.
[ Note: Now neither #1 or #2 above addresses the possibility you raised that aliens, rather than God, might be responsible for such an act. But I suspect, logically and philosophically, that anyone / anything capable of such an act - regardless of any extra-terrestrial origin - would be (nominally) indistinguishable from a theistic diety as far as the general public is concerned. ]
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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No, I didn’t read any of it… except for the fact that Joseph got post #223…
What God…?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Ha, if I ever saw proof there is no god that's it...
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Blight
Social climber
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But you have faith so my disbelief is irrelevant.
No, your disbelief is irrelevant because he saw it happen for himself.
You insistence that it didn't happen and couldn't have happened, because you say so, when you weren't there and have no evidence to the contrary, is remarkably reminiscent of a small, spoilt child putting his fingers in his ears and shouting, "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!".
As I said before, there's a big difference between having your eyes shut and saying, "I can't see", and having your eyes shut and saying, "there's no such thing as light".
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Healyje, thank you for your reply, and I laughed out loud at your (excellent) Walmart idea.
I'm on the same page with you about threshold of witness. I want to discuss an implication of that in a moment. But first, let's talk about your Walmart idea.
You say, "Now neither #1 or #2 above addresses the possibility you raised that aliens, rather than God, might be responsible for such an act. But I suspect, logically and philosophically, that anyone / anything capable of such an act - regardless of any extra-terrestrial origin - would be (nominally) indistinguishable from a theistic diety as far as the general public is concerned."
You here suggest that a sufficient demonstration of power is tantamount to justification for employment of the title "God." But, it really isn't, is it?
Arther C. Clark famously said, "Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic." Your idea is really a paraphrase of that: "Any sufficienctly impressive demonstration of power is indistiguishable from divinity."
I agree with you that if your Walmart idea became reality, that would be a pretty impressive demonstration of something. The question would be: What?
Don't be too quickly dismissive of my "aliens" idea, because I submit that a significant percentage of the people on Earth would NOT surmise divinity from such a demonstration of power (the vast majority of the world's population is not Judeo/Christian). While you or I might say, "Nice. Loaves and fishes. Yeah, I get the point," most of the world's population would draw completely different messages. And our attempt to "educate" them about the "real" message conveyed by the demonstration would introduce the very obliqueness that your "clear" and "obvious" demonstration was supposed to avoid. The fact is that no matter how "clear" and "obvious" the message is, the more people you have to get that message TO, the higher the odds are that it will be misunderstood by more and more of them!
Now, in that context, let's turn back to the threshold of witness idea. The tension with any "message" is that if you give the same message to too many people, a lot of them aren't going to "get it." But, on the other hand, if you give the message to a small enough group of people, in an intimate setting, crafting the message to reach JUST them very effectively, then the message fails the threshold of witness test. So, if you're God, how do you approach things?
Well, on the one hand, you DO give some messages that reach everybody--knowing that many if not most aren't going to "get it" for many reasons. Examples are the Bible and creation itself. Now, I know you are howling, and THAT is my point. Many people see in the Bible and in creation messages that clearly and obviously tell them of a Creator God. Others, like yourself, interpret these messages differently, even coming to the opposite conclusion from those who see God in them.
At this juncture you might say, "But neither the Bible nor creation are undeniably non-naturalistic, while my Walmart example clearly and obviously would be!"
But, no, it wouldn't be. Most people on Earth might well say that your example event would be clear and obvious evidence that aliens visited the Earth--AND, it could be further conjectured that the loaves and fishes themselves were evidence that these very aliens must have been responsible for a host of other "miracles" that are now such an entrenched part of Christian mythology!
Surely you are not placing yourself in the camp of the "general public" who you think would likely be convinced by the demonstration. Instead, you would be one of the ones saying, "Wow! Impressive! Ok, now, what caused this? (BTW, you general public people, shut yer yappin' so we can figure this out.) Ok, so whatever did this had to have access to basically the whole country in one night...." And you would then begin to catalog the alternatives, and, trust me, aliens WOULD be on that list. YOU would not, along with the "general public," immediately think "God!" And, I believe, you would be RIGHT to reserve judgment in that very way.
You should not be immediately convinced by anecdotal evidence, no matter how "clear and obvious" it was to the small group present to observe it. AND you should not be convinced by even something as impressive as your Walmart example.
To illustrate my upcoming point, bad hermenutics uses the "proof text" method of Biblical interpretation. One or two verses are used (usually out of context) to make some doctrinal claim, despite the fact that many other places, and indeed entire themes of the Bible, make the opposite point. Such "proofs" are the basis of many of the allegations of "inconsistency" critics level at the Bible (and such methods account for much of the divergency in Christianity).
One good example is the way Luke 23:43 is read: "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." It clearly reads that the thief on the cross would be with Christ that very day in paradise. There is simply no misunderstanding what that verse "clearly and simply" says!
Because it is so "clear and simple," this verse has be widely used as "proof" of people going straight to Heaven (or Hell) when they die. The Bible is crystal clear in many places that "the dead know not anything," and that they do NOT go straight to Heaven or Hell when they die, but the doctrine of the immortal soul and immediate punishment or reward is mainstream.
All hinges on the employment of that one little comma! Because the translators placed it before instead of after the "To day," it reads totally differently from the original Greek (which, BTW, had no punctuation). Put the comma AFTER the "To day," and you have an entirely different reading of the text.
The same problem applies to ALL levels of interpretation in ALL contexts! You acknowledge that interpretation of evidence is "a significant hurdle," but you are mistaken that "simplicity and scale" are the solutions to it. EVERYBODY has access to the same Bible, which satisfies the scale requirement. AND it is quite common knowledge among those who read their Bibles that the Greek has no punctuation, which you would think would make it astoundingly simple for them to recognize that the offending comma was SUPPLIED by translators. How much more simple can the understanding of this text be??? "Duh, supplied comma... ok, we can't base anything on where the comma is... ok, then at best this verse is ambiguous."
But, it's even simpler than that! The Bible itself clearly explains that Christ didn't ascend to Heaven that day, and the thief didn't die that day either. So, with the TINIEST bit of looking at the context, it is trivial to not misunderstand that verse. Nevertheless, the misunderstanding to which I point is mainstream!
If SO many people, over so many centuries, could be SO taken in by what is an OBVIOUS misunderstanding (scale and simplicity), how much hope can you really put in either scale or simplicity? As the line from Men in Black goes, "A person is smart. 'People' are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."
If something like your Walmart example ever became reality, you would get WILDLY divergent interpretations, even among the educated and intelligent, and the demonstration would NOT convince many (if not most) that GOD had been responsible, nor should it!
No one of us (and the prospects are even more dismal in groups) enjoys an epistemically privileged position, such that we can have confidence in our interpretations of any particular "facts" or events. THIS is why there IS no "clear" and "simple" path to (or away from) faith. We are ALL just thrutching around, picking things up, examining them, trying to fit them in, discarding those that don't seem to fit anywhere, perhaps revisiting them later--and all the while we are trying to assemble for ourselves coherent world views.
We oversimplify that process only at our peril: doing do makes us closed-minded, narrow, and exactly the sort of people Tommy Lee Jones said we are. I remember a Calvin and Hobbs cartoon. I can't find it, though, but here goes. Calvin is bemoaning education: "It just introduces shades of grey. It makes things that seemed clear, fuzzy," and so on. HE is a "man of action," so he says, and such fuzziness causes one to pause, causes one to contemplate before acting, which restricts a "man of action." Thus, Calvin will resist education! Hobbes replies, "You're ignorant, but at least you act on it."
As you know, the world is chock full of people who are ignorant, but at least they act on it! The reason Arther C. Clark is correct in his statement is exactly because we ALL want to jump to conclusions, and we ALL oversimplify the issues that face us. But oversimplification is the root of all evil.
Anti-abortionists kill abortion doctors because they have oversimplified the issues. Hitler kills millions because he has oversimplified the issues. People elect idiots as presidents because they have oversimplified the issues (and because we have trained our politicians to do so as well, so that the only pool we have left to choose from consists of idiots). I could go on and on, and you yourself could come up with millions of examples. "Knowledge is power," and we believe that adage, so we oversimplify the issues enough that we can feel that we have knowledge about various subjects that matter to us!
So, yes healyje, we part company on whether or not philosophical methods are valuable in the context of such questions. I deny that there is any such thing as a "clear and simple" demonstration of anything, and I advocate careful and non-dogmatic thinking about all subjects, despite the fact that careful thinking is time-consuming and strips one of the precious sense of having "knowledge." Initially you thought that your Walmart example could act as a sufficient demonstration of divine power. I hope you think differently about that now.
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gonzo chemist
climber
Crane Jackson's Fountain St. Theater
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Anybody here ever read "Waiting for the Galactic Bus"?
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ec
climber
ca
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scene: hot & dusty, sort of like in the gas station scene of No Country for Old Men...in the mid-70's at a junk yard in the S. San Joaquin Valley, outside of Bakersfield, CA.
The guy at the counter is wearing on separate chains a cross, an ankh, a star of david and a crystal.
When asked about the variety of religious jewelry the guy replies, " 'Never know man, I figured that need to have it all covered."
true story...
ec
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Craig said: "The whole bible is made up, that is a fact."
How about the Song of Songs, or the parables, the Beatitudes, and what not. There are no facts even mentioned in these passages, but there is wisdom. Is wisdom made up or universal?
Problem is that people continue to look for God at the level of their discursive mind, so if "God" does not appear according to discursive criteria (God = some entity), God is, ergo, "made up."
There's an old saw: You cannot solve a problem at the level of the problem. Put differently, you cannot "solve" the God problem at the level of the discursive mind, not without introducing God forms that are, as Craig said, "made up," unsubstantiated, illogical, and so forth.
And so we have people saying, "God doesn't make any sense to me. I can't prove Him, or it, or her." So God gets cast in the image of our needs, real or imagined, or to "explain" what science has yet to nail down, or as thoughts or imaginings, or as the product of states, or as a feeling or sensation or vision - but always as a "thing," and substance, an "it," a form. Few see this as simply the analytical mind grasping for something to squeeze and contrast.
But why stop there? That's just the first belay, and the wall rises out of sight.
JL
JL
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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People believe because they are taught it by their parents and by the people around them.
At some point, someone tells you that there is no Santa Claus. Until then, you believe it because they tell you to believe it. They also give you a reward for believing it and punishment for not believing it (naughty and nice list). It's just like most religions except instead of presents, there is heaven and hell.
It also allows people to blame someone else for their problems so they don't give it up easily.
The Egyptians believed it because they were taught by their parents to believe it and it was better to believe than to not believe. The same goes for the Mayan, Aztec, Greek, Roman, Jew, Muslim, Christian, Wiccan, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.
Dave
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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nicely put JL
Or to state it more clearly without the JL poetry:
We are too stupid to figure out anything having to do with God. Bummer.
Dave
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ec
climber
ca
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'Never know man, I figured that need to have it all covered.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Craig said, "Why cant' you extend beyond your beliefs to see that all religions are just that, people duped with a false belief."
What are you saying that I "believe," and where did you get that idea?
What I'm actually saying is that you are arguing yourself into a circular argument at the level of the mind, and from that level, only mind, and thing or form of mind, are "real." It never occurs to "mind" that there are limitations to it's capacities.
JL
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pa
climber
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"The intuitive mind is a precious gift. The rational mind is its faithful servant.
We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."
Albert Einstein
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Bible Prophecy and Probability
The record of Bible prophecy and the corresponding historical fulfillment.
PROPHECY/ PROBABILITY
1. His birth in Bethlehem from the tribe of Judah. - Michah 5:2/Matt 2:1
/1:2400
2. He would be preceded by a messenger. - Isaiah 40:3/Matt 3:1-2
/1:20
3. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt. - Zech 9:9/Luke 19:35
/1:50
4. He would be betrayed by a friend. - Psalm 41:9/Matt 26:47-48
/1:10
5. His hands and feet would be pierced. - Psalm 22:16/Luke 23:33
/1:100
6. He would be scourged by His enemies. - Isaiah 53:5/Matt 27:26
/1:10
7. His betrayal for 30 pieces of silver. - Zech 11:12/Matt 26:15
/1:50
8. He will be spit upon and beaten. - Isaiah 5:6/Matt 26:27
/1:10
9. His betrayal money would be thrown into the temple. Zech11:13/Mat 27:5-7
/1:200
10. He would be silent before His accusers. - Isaiah 53:7/Mat 27:12-14
/1:100
11. He would be crucified with thieves. - Isaiah 53:12/Mat 27:38
/1:100
12. People would gamble for His garments. - Psalm 22:18/John 19:23-24
/1:100
13. His side would be pierced. - Zech 12:10/John 19:34
/1:100
14. None of His bones would be broken. - Psalm 34:20/John 19:34
/1:20
15. His body would not decay. - Psalm 16:10/Acts 2:31
/1:10000
16. His burial in a rich an's tomb. Isaiah 53:9/Mat 27:57-60
/1:100
17. The darkness covering the earth at midday. - Amos 8:9/Mat 27:45
/1:1000
Total odds against the above prophesied events occuring by chance are:
4.8E+33
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dr. F.,
So, were all of the apostles just imaginary characters? Did they not exist?
Was Saul/Paul really the persecuter of Christians that history says he was? Are the fourteen attributed Epistles of Paul fabricated?
Did this paint rendering of "The Apostle Paul" come from someone's imagination?
http://biblestudies.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_apostle_paul_a_biography
I ask about the Apostle Paul because in 1 Corinthians 15:17 Paul declares and defends, to the those of the church of Corinth, his own and those, greater than (500), that witnessed Christ's resurrection! Even after this the majority still didn't believe.
Listen to how Paul ends chapter 15:
"50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."
Spending eternity in hell is not a long time, it isn't a very long time....it's forever! I'm 100% sure I'm going to heaven, are you? I can show you how!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Madbolter and Illusiondweller,
Most excellent brothers. Thank you.
There are physical evidences that GOD is, and Jesus is who he says he is. Illusiondweller, prophecy fortold and then coming to pass just as the Good Book said it would, is most powerful and faith edifiying. There is soooo much. And it continues in our day.
GOD doesn't expect us to throw our heads away.
Some will believe with little evidence, they are surely blessed. Some will believe after an overwhelming amount of evidence. I first came to faith with some evidence and personal experience. When I fell away from GOD, and finally came back for good, I had an enormous amount of evidence to rest upon. And today the evidence just keeps pilling up. For me not to believe would be impossible.
I would like to contribute to this thread and look up and post evidences that GOD tells the truth and reveals himself as we go, but for now I just want to post this children's story of Doubting Thomas . . .
http://www.kirkofkildaire.org/quest/FQlessons/DoubtingThomasGoodNews.htm
Paraphrased from the Children’s Illustrated Bible – Doubting Thomas
Jesus’ followers were excited and everyone in the room wanted to talk to Peter and his friend at once. The disciples crowded around them, firing questions and praising God, begging to hear them tell again and again exactly what Jesus looked like and each word of what he said. Had Peter seen the wounds in his hands?
All at once the hubbub died away into silence. Everyone stood perfectly still, staring open-mouthed at the newcomer in the room. No one heard anyone knock or open the door. No one had seen anyone enter. Yet there He was! It was Jesus!
“Peace be with you, “Jesus said softly, greeting His friends and disciples with a familiar hand shake and smile.
“Be careful, it’s a spirit!” came murmurs from the back of the room.
A frown creased Jesus’ brow. Why are you frightened of me? I am not a ghost. Look here, see the wounds on my hands, feet and side. It is me, Jesus.
A few of the disciples began to creep closer to Jesus – but very cautiously.
“Yes, come closer. Do not be afraid.”
As they began to touch his warm skin, they cried out – it is you, Jesus and their faces were bright with peace and delight.
There was one disciple who was not present at this special meeting and when he heard what had happened, he did not believe them. He said, “Unless I can touch the marks of the nails in His hands and the wound in His side, I can’t believe what you tell me.” It cannot be Jesus.
No matter what his friends said, no matter how hard he tried, Thomas could not get the doubt out of his mind.
Eight days later, Jesus followers were again together in a private place with the doors locked. The disciples were afraid of the Jewish council and other political figures who might know that they had seen Jesus and what might happen to them.
During the middle of their meeting/meal, just as before Jesus appeared among them – the door did not open, no one heard a knock. “Peace be with you!”
He greeted his disciples and friends and turned toward Thomas.
Thomas, shrank away from the group. Jesus went toward him.
Jesus reached out His hand and took the terrified disciple’s hands.
“Here,” Jesus said, holding Thomas’s fingers against the nail wounds in His hands. “Feel the wound in my side. Don’t doubt any longer. Have faith in me, it is true.”
As Thomas fingers touched Jesus where he was wounded, his hands, his feet and his side, Thomas broke down and cried.
“My Lord and my God!” Thomas cried.
You believe me now because you have seen me for yourself. Even more blessed are those who don’t see me and yet still believe.
See John 20:24-29
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Bible_(King_James)/John#20:24
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Do you really think that if more direct archaelogical evidence was found of Jesus Christ's existence, that people would believe in God? Phillip spent personal time with Jesus and still didn't believe in God. Listen to the exchange between them:
John 14:
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Yes, I agree.
Some need no evidence, and some need a great deal, even after spending personal time with Christ. Personally, I can't imagine. But Jesus worked with even those.
We are blessed. We believe but have never seen Jesus. (But I have other physical evidences that what he says is true, that they didn't have in the time of Christ).
Some will come to GOD and believe with little evidence, or no evidence. They hear the Good News, they have faith, believe, they ask Jesus to come into their hearts and forgive them, and Jesus comes into their heart and changes their life.
Others hear the Good News, but then they want proof that it is real and true. Then they believe, they have faith, ask Jesus to come into their hearts and forgive them, and he does and he changes their life.
We all have different amounts of faith who have come to Jesus. The Good News is he will work with what you have and what you need to believe. Faith will grow as we go.
But we all have to take that leap of faith at some point. It will always require faith. Always.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Klimmer,
That "Bible Prophecy and Probability" was part of a presentation that a brother in Christ, David Hall (http://quiettimepoems.blogspot.com/); put together for a statistics class back when he was in college. He told me that his instructor never said a word nor asked a question after he finished! Read his testimony and peruse his poems. It is humbling how he has committed his life to the Lord. Edit: see below
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"About Me
Name: David Hall Location: San Diego, California, United States
I retired from the U.S. Navy in 1997. More importantly, I trusted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior in 1973 and will tell anyone about Him who will listen to the evidence that He is the Savior of the world! I have been employed as an English teacher, but am now retired and serving the Lord full time. I am especially eager to present the evidence that PROVES the Bible to be true, by examining the accuracy of fulfilled prophecy (God has NEVER been wrong), the historical reality of the resurrection of Christ, the intelligent design evident in nature by which God has clearly illustrated His attributes, and an objective examination of the scientific validity of the Bible, whenever it speaks to issues of science (e.g., the Bible's claim that the stars were innumerable (Jeremiah 33:22) while astronomers in 150 A.D. said there were at most 3,000). A lot is riding on this, friends. God's promises of salvation are as valid as His promises of judgment. And you must decide which one you want to experience for all of your eternity... a long time to regret the wrong choice. Come to Christ today, while you may. -Matthew 11:28."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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From David Hall's blog:
"What reason do you have to believe the earth is flat?"
"No reason at all! The Bible affirmed that the earth was round long before science discovered it (Isaiah 40:22)."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Outstanding!
"How the Heavens Declare the Glory of God
"Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said.... Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth MAZZAROTH (i.e., the twelve constellations of the zodiac) in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?” (Job 38:1,32).
1. WHO named the stars?
Answer: Scripture is clear: God Himself named the stars.
“He telleth the number of the stars; He calleth them all by their names” (Psalm 147:4).
“Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not one faileth” (Isaiah 40:26). See Job 38:32, where God recites star names."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"2. WHY did God name the stars?
Answer: To provide prophetic signs ordered according to their appointed times (i.e., “seasons”) of fulfillment.
“And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs (othoth, signifying something to come), and for seasons (moed, a fixed or an appointed time), and for days, and years” (Genesis 1:14). See Romans 10:18."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"3. WHAT is the message declared by the stars?
Answer: The glory of God that is “above the heavens” (Psalm 8:1), as seen in the Person and work of God the Son, Jesus Christ, the promised Seed of a woman, as foretold in the first Messianic prophecy (Genesis 3:15), declaring that our Savior would eventually defeat Satan (i.e., bruise the serpent’s head), though He would suffer (bruising His own heal) to redeem His people from their sins and take them safely home to heaven.
“O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! Who hast set thy glory above the heavens... The heavens declare the glory of God” (Psalm 8:1, 19:1).
“For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6). See also Hebrews 1:3.
“And I will put enmity between thee [Satan, embodied in the serpent] and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel” (Genesis 3:15). This is the central theme.
Example: God called Abram out of Ur of the Chaldees where astrology, abhorrent to God (Deut. 18:10-12, Isaiah 47:13,14), had flourished. God commanded Abram: “Look toward heaven, and tell (narrate) the stars, if thou be able to number (name them one by one) them. And He said, So shall thy Seed be (singular, referring to Christ; see Galatians 3:16). And he believed in the Lord; and He counted it to him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:5).
Abram knew the star names and where to begin naming them. Beginning at Virgo he would have recited words such as: “VIRGO, SUBILAH, ZAVIJAVA, SPICA/TSEMECH¹, VINDEMIATRIX, COMA, IHESU², BOOTES, ARCTURUS, NEKKAR, AGENA, TOLIMAN,” which translates: “The virgin who carries the gloriously beautiful Seed, the Branch (Messiah), the Son who comes down to rule, the desired Son, the Christ, the coming Shepherd, the Pierced, the despised Sin Offering, the Beginning and the End.”
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"4. WHERE do we find specific star names in Scripture?
Answer: Primarily in the Book of Job, acknowledged by God Himself in the series of questions that He posed to Job, showing also the common knowledge of the star names among the ancient patriarchs of that dispensation.
“Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth (the constellations) in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?” (Job 38:32).
“[God] alone spreadeth out the heavens...which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers (constellations) of the south” (Job 9:9).
“By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the crooked serpent” (Job 26:13).
-Note: SERPENS and HYDRA are two examples of this.
The prophet Amos also advised, “Seek him that maketh the seven stars (literally, Pleiades) and Orion” (Amos 5:8)."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"5. WHEN were the star names first given in human history?
Answer: Most likely incident to the fall of man, providing and preserving an exposition on the first Messianic promise given to humanity in Genesis 3:15.
The obvious familiarity of the star names in the book of Job (accepted as the oldest book in the Bible) testifies to the antiquity handed down by Adam to his descendants. Ancient planispheres and star charts in virtually every civilization bear witness to a single, Divine origin by their phenomenal unity, as observed in China, India, Babylonia, Persia, Egypt, Israel, Greece, Rome, Scandinavia, and in Central America.
Bibliography:
Bullinger, E.W. The Witness of the Stars, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Kregel, 1893, 1967.
Fleming, K. C. God's Voice in the Stars, Loizeaux Brothers, Neptune, New Jersey, 1981.
Seiss, Joseph A. The Gospel in the Stars, Castle Press, 1884; Grand rapids, Michigan: Kregel, 1979.
posted by Brother David Hall"
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Wow Illusiondweller,
You a have given me a bunch more to read! Very good stuff. :-))
My Amazon.com Wish list is breaking at the seams . . .
Klimmer
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Craig said: "You have not answered any of my questions, and just go tangential from anything I say."
The problem is that you're not really asking any questions, Craig. I sense of this is that your mind is made up and you're daring anyone to provide "evidence" that will refute your conclusion. Funny thing is that I'm not refuting your conclusion at the level of your arguments. If a person demands that "God" be material with qualities that can be quantified with scientific instrument, then I totally agree that "God" does not "exist." I also agree that at the level of symbolic materialism (language refers to "real" things), discussions of "God," at least in literal terms, are meaningless, since there's no material to haggle over so what the hell are we talking about if not a whole lot of "nothing?" Right?
But moving on - A true question is the inquiry about information to which you have to clue whatsoever, and no opinion either. It's an open minded exploration. As is, you've determined that "God" meet your own personal, and in my opinion, very limited, materialistic/reductionistic criteria.
I'm merely suggesting that perhaps your problem lies more with your criteria, than with "God."
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dr. F. wrote: "No one here on ST, or in any other book, or after 10000 of years, has experienced God in some way that could called more than a warm fuzzing feeling inside."
Well, nobody can accuse of not making bold and fantastic assertions there Doctor. In the previous statement, you're purporting to know, with certainty, the inner experiences of every human being who has ever lived in the history of the world. In fact this is more fantastic a claim than insisting Jonah spent time in the whale's tripe. That means you're nothing short of omniscient = God. Who would'a thunk it?
Moving on: "And Largo, why are you taking this so personnal."
I don't personalize any of this. Not remotely. I laugh a lot, at myself for fiddling with such folly, but I still do it for the hell of it.
JL
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pa
climber
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Dr.F, there is truth in what Mr. Largo says...you sound like a man who is trying to put out a fire with a wooden stick.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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A better question is what do people mean when they say God?
To me God is the intelligence that permeates and creates the Universe. He created me with a unique configuration and wants me to live it to the fullest.
Honestly, I can't even imagine not believing in God. It would be trying to deny my own existence. One thing I can't believe in is religion. All these idiots with their "holy books" proclaiming this and that about God. They don't know sh#t. Religion seems to me for people who are unaware that God speaks directly to anyone who asks. Religious people are idolaters. They listen to men, not God and claim it's God they listen to. Religion is a scourge.
I am a part of the intelligence of this universe. I perceive that it is vast, and that I have frequent access to it, and that it is infinitely greater than I can comprehend using normal human consciousness.
I ask it to speak to me in a language I can understand and it does. God breaks it down for me. Every time I ask. If you don't experience a connection of God it's your free will not to do so. You've chosen it, or chosen to believe something else.
Here's the rub. Ask God to send you a sign that you will be unable to deny. He'll do it.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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More than 1 billion copies
Book Author(s) Original language First published Approximate sales
Bible[1] (Koine Greek τὰ Βιβλία -hebrew " התנ"ך " ) Authors of the Bible Hebrew, Koine Greek, Aramaic, Latin 300 BC- 95 AD,
Further information: dating of the Bible
2.5 billion[2] to more than 6 billion[3]
for something that some say cannot possible hold truth...why would it be passed down via language for generations and printed so many times?.....what other book has sold more copies...or for that matter how far back....
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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The Bible is like a virus. God does not give a crap or not about it. Ask him.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Binks- In a way, you just contradicted your own aforementioned principle. Which God? When you say God, what do you mean? Do you mean God Jehovah, that is, God of Moses? If not, which God? God Diacrates? God Hypercrates? Which, man, tell us which one you mean.
God Diacrates: The intelligent higher power behind all things.
God Jehovah: The god (deity) of Jews, Christians, Muslims.
God Hypercrates: personification, symbol, of fate (cf: Grim Reaper, symbol of death)
God Zeus: the God of the ancient Greeks
Stop dangling deities. (Your own aforementioned principle.) Break this bad habit. -Which is what it is. A bad habit.
You don't "dangle participles" in English class. Similarly, you don't "dangle deities" in any 21st century intelligent discourse on gods or theologies. (Yes, it's a new standard of awareness.) Try it.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Too lazy to read all the post but the only reason is brainwashing.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Challenge...why are the players in this case ask for others to always prove there is a God...how about those that insist there is no God provide evidence of their case.....instead of babble....
Do people believe in worm holes and time travel even if we cannot see them but Hawkins says they exist...does everything have to be proved before it is accepted?
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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HFCS you're talking about avatars. God can appear in whatever mask you like.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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There is no God Zeus. There is no God Jehovah. There is no God Poseidon. There is no God Amon-Re.
Do I really need to prove to you there is no God Poseidon? Do I really need to prove to you that Aphrodite wasn't born of sea foam off a Greek isle?
If no, no... then similarly I shouldn't have to prove to you Jehovah (aka Yahweh) of the ancient Hebrews didn't exist for Adam to Abraham to Moses either.
Let go of this ancient theology. The sky won't fall. Life will still be the adventure it is and it will still go on. Just try it.
Binks- Okay, agree to a point, so simply distinguish your God from God Jehovah in your conversations and this will cut a great deal of the needless arguing in half. Try it.
But God Jehovah for millions (including my grandmother) was hardly conceived as just an avatar or symbol of fate, even intelligent fate. They believe he's as real as you or me and carried out all the specifics of the Bible stories literally. -Including mating with a young human female to produce an offspring: God Jesus. (Quite a stretch from Diacrates or Hypercrates.)
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pa
climber
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"Pa there is truth in what Dr. F says. You sound like a truckler".
"Truckler" : A servile, self seeking flatterer. (Webster)
Mr. HFCS,
I am humble
I seek the self
I have found flattery expedient at times...but I wouldn't know who to address it to, in this case...or why.
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Brian More
climber
Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
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Read Eric Hoffer, " The True Believer" .
Personal experience with a higher power: Snorkeling solo off a sandy beach in the Galapagos islands in November 2008 (can't remember which island or beach) I floated above the reef about a hundred yards offshore. From the depths, in the distance, a shape appeared. Adrenaline flowed as I waited for it's arrival. Closing fast, a large black mass. I held my position and was visited by a giant Galapagos sea turtle, looking for a snack. I treaded water (mesmerized), as my new friend munched on the reef... but wait! Again, in the distance, a dark shape moved closer... It was, to my amazement, another giant sea turtle! (were they a couple?-did they seek out my company for some reason?-were they drawn to me?) Many minutes later, and after much floating/observation and reef munching I knew I had been witness to a higher power, God/nature spoke to me, and I will never ever forget it.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Beat her with a rake...make her pay for her mistake....choke her , choker her till she sees god....the weasles...need more proof..?
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Here's the thing about you folks that keep denying God or gods exist. You seem so confident that what YOU believe is real. I bet almost none of what you believe is real is very accurate. If you go back a thousand years, you'd agree that people then didn't know jack squat. I'm sure though they sure thought they really had a handle on things. In another thousand years everything you think you know will probably be understood as a primitive fantasy. Don't be so sure of yourselves. God is God. He was there then and he's there now. Attempts to pin him down by using different avatars (Zeus or whatever) are a misunderstanding of divine intelligence. I don't need to 'believe' God exists. I experience it all the time. He's the guide and creator of my mission here on Earth. He speaks to me directly in a language I'm capable of understanding whenever I ask a question. It never fails.
BTW, there is a God Zeus, Poseidon etc. They are part of divine intelligence. I could call on any of those Gods if I need to.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Binks wrote-
Attempts to pin him down by using different avatars (Zeus or whatever) are a misunderstanding of divine intelligence.
(a) Attempts to pin ideas down by using different words are a misunderstanding of ideation.
(b) Attempts to pin entities down by using diffent names are a misunderstanding of things.
(c) Attempts to pin people down by using different names for them (Mike, John, Bill, Sue, Mary, whatever) are a misunderstanding of humanity, the oneness of humanity.
(d) Attempts to pin rockclimbing gear down by using different names for them (cams, nuts, slings, hexes, Aliens, Metolius, BD, etc.) are a misunderstanding of basic protection.
You don't see the analogies. If not, pretty lame.
The use of words, terms, labels in whatever field is a basic role of language amongst humans to improve understanding.
Good luck and good night.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Unfortunately, it is YOU, HFCS who do not see. I really have no need to convince you or anyone else of anything of this nature!
You see what you want to see. You hear what you want to hear. Simple as that.
For me God exists and so do all the "gods" of human history. They are all entities that have intelligence that I can call on. I have had some of them appear to me in visions of such dazzling complexity that no artist on earth has ever rendered. Things I couldn't have imagined in a million years. The are real and they are all warp and weft of the divine.
It's pretty funny that "modern" man, who has largely completely blinded himself to the existence of God thinks this is a superior state of intelligence. It's like putting out your own eyes and then claiming anyone who believes in vision is a crank. Now, I understand why you'd want to deny God and it's not about God at all. It's about the power people abuse who claim they or their sect\church\cult speaks for God. That's pretty much always a lie and personally I'm praying that the liars continue to be exposed. If you haven't noticed, the Catholic church has been getting what they deserve lately. Thank God.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Binks wrote-
"it is YOU, HFCS who do not see..."
Well, perhaps you misunderstand. I believe. I am a believer. I believe in Hypercrates. Moreover, like Einstein, I believe in Diacrates as a possibility.
But I don't believe in Jehovah or Marduk- just too ancient Mesopotamian to me. For my taste.
And thank goodness, too, because if I did believe in Jevovah, for instance, I'd be inclined to help pass edicts against Sabbath breakers (Num 15) and I'd be inclined to help stone them to death in obedience to Him.
"You see what you want to see. You hear what you want to hear. Simple as that."
Not quite. I've spent a lifetime studying the world's god concepts and theologies. Far more than just those of the Abrahamic religion. For me, it is (1) education and (2) trying hard to "live up to" that education. -That is what I am expressing here. Sorry if that goes against your perspective.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Remember, when the proverbial doo-doo hits the fan, there is only one to turn to: Jesus the Christ, our Lord and Savior.
Turning now to GOD and to Jesus and getting right with him before this happens, is much more advised. I wouldn't put it off for another day.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4380943
Matt.24 (KJV)
[1] And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
[2] And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
[16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
[17] Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
[18] Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
[19] And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
[20] But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
[23] Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[40] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[42] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
[43] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
[44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
[45] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
[46] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
[47] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
[48] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
[50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
[51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Weschrist- I wish Earth had a planetary twin also in orbit around the sun. So we of like mind could set sail for this new world, leave behind these supernaturalists and contribute to a new speciation: Homo superbus.
I wonder if any evolved intelligence in the entire Milky Way could be so lucky as to have multiple planetary systems (chockfull of abundant fossil fuel of course). To enable dispersal. To enable speciation. To enable getting away from the Klimmers and Rokjoks.
But alas, not we, we're stuck. Having to get along. Having to compromise, negotiate, with these nonadaptive supernaturalists.
"If it weren't for God, we would have nothing going for us at all."
Yeah, ain't that crazy. I missed that one. I missed it because I take Pate's advice and skip all the nonsense of this poster.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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You aren't any different than the people who believe in God or other gods and thinking you could isolate yourself is funny. You'd have an outbreak of God believers before long if you did so. You've just made your own philosophies and beliefs gods instead. What you attack you just strengthen. Any god you contemplate long enough will eventually appear before you thru archetypal consciousness. The reason we can't reach agreement isn't the reason you think it is. In my opinion you have decided in your mind what God and gods must be, excluded everything else, and then concluded from that faulty construction that God does not exist simply because he does not exist within the criteria you have selected. God allows you to play this game and isn't miffed at your stance. It's called Free Will.
You probably think believing in God would somehow imprison or limit you. This is totally an error. It's the opposite. You don't gain anything by excluding God. You just lose guidance, vision, protection, and connection by that exclusion.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Binks wrote-
"You've just made your own philosophies and beliefs gods instead."
Yeah, but the difference is it is based on a modern understanding of things. Esp in regard to how the world works and how life works. As opposed to quite literally a bronze age understanding of things. Makes for a big difference. Big.
You think it's right not to distinguish between the god concept Einstein speculated about and the god concept fundamentalist Christians and Muslims believe in? You think the two are one and the same?
"The reason we can't reach agreement..."
Give it time. We've just entered a powerful info age. Internet-driven now. Give it time. 2-3 generations. Big changes are underway. The "practice" of living 100 years from now won't be domininated by ancient theologies or ancient theisms. People will trust them, they will have faith in them. These "practices" will be based not only on a modern understanding of how the world works but on new narratives and the world and its human cultures will be better for it. That is my hope and faith/trust.
Right now, we are experiencing growing pains.
"A watched pot never boils."
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Yeah, but the difference is it is based on a modern understanding of things. Esp in regard to how the world works and how life works. As opposed to quite literally a bronze age understanding of things. Makes for a big difference. Big.
This is incorrect. God is eternal. Modern understanding is modern understanding. In a little while it won't be modern. You can understand anything you like but God isn't tied to an understanding bound by time. When you experience God it is timeless. Concepts and understanding are fragments of consciousness. God is within total consciousness.
You think it's right not to distinguish between the god concept Einstein speculated about and the god concept fundamentalist Christians and Muslims believe in? You think the two are one and the same?
Religious people in my opinion are basically some of the most un-Godly people on earth. John Lennon said "Imagine no religion". Amen. He didn't say "Imagine there's no God". Religious people mostly haven't had an experience and substitute "holy" books, crooked leaders, and arrogant pronouncements from fools for God's truth.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Why?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You're correct Juan, it isn't logical. I do not believe.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dr. F. said: My criteria is that God has to be "something."
This insistence is the result of being entirely trapped in the discursive mind, which can only work with "things" that have qualities we can measure and contrast and so forth. It is simply the discursive/evaluating mind interpreting and objectifying "reality" on it's own terms - and be glad the mind does this or we'd never get things done. But the evaluating mind's limitations are strongly felt and known when it runs up against "spirit," or the indivisible "all."
Spirituality is not beholden to "things," hence the circular argument if you require "God" to be the way your mind has decided "he" must be (material - "something" we can wrangle with instruments) lest "He" is not real.
What, then, is "spirit?" (Hint - not an idea, a feeling, a thought, a sensation, a memory, an imagined image, a sound, etc., all of which are "things." Nor yet is Spirit a "fiction," a "belief," etc., which are merely appraisals and evaluations of some thing, or the lack of thingness.)
See how the evaluating mind grasps after things? That's a good starting point.
JL
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go-B
climber
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Because there IS God, His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit!
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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Thank God for Soundgarden...
Take, if you want a slice
If you want a piece
If it feels alright
Break, if you like the sound
If it gets you up
If it brings you down
Share, if it makes you sleep
If it sets you free
If it helps you breathe
Don't come over here
And piss on my gate
Save it just keep it
Off my wave
Cry, if you want to cry
If it helps you see
If it clears your eyes
Hate, if you want to hate
If it keeps you safe
If it makes you brave
Pray, if you want to pray
If you like to kneel
If you like to lay
Don't come over here
And piss on my gate
Save it just keep it
Off my wave
Keep it off my wave
Keep it off my wave
Keep it off my wave
My wave
Cry, if you want to cry
If it helps you see
If it clears your eyes
Hate, if you want to hate
If it keeps you safe
If it makes you brave
Take, if you want a slice
If you want a piece
If it feels alright
Don't come over here
And piss on my gate
Save it just keep it
Off my wave
Keep it off my wave
Keep it off my wave
My wave
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go-B
climber
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Psalm 93:4, Mightier than the thunders of many waters, mightier than the waves of the sea, the Lord on high is mighty!
Isaiah 51:15, I am the Lord your God, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Now that is a beautiful video! Reaffirms the exquisite relations between physical laws, energy and motion, mathematics, living things and human perception. Thanks for posting it.
Mathematics is a reflection of causality. Applied to biology, it may be used to expose and express the mechanistic nature inherent in all living things.
Hurray for mathematics. The language of mathematics. The tool of mathematics. The beauty of mathematics.
Make Astrophes proud. Embrace causality.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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the god delusion runs deep.
it goes back a long time.
But few can see that there is no god.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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What makes chimpanzees go?
Is there a ghost (or ghostly spirit) in the body machine that pulls levers?
that leads to chimpanzee behavior, that makes the chimpanzee go.
On the other hand...
If there is no ghostly spirit driving the flesh, then the conclusion is inescapable: it means flesh and blood working through cells and tissues, brought forth by evolution and natural selection, is capable of mighty exquisite powers.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Whew, talk about paradigm shifts in attitudes and thinking:
Modern: Flesh and blood drives the flesh and blood, so it's time we respected it for the marvel it is. (HFCS)
Ancient: A ghost or ghostly spirit drives the flesh and blood, so there is good reason to "pass over" flesh and blood, to discount it, for it is only of secondary importance if that relative to the ghost. (Go-be, Klimmer, Rocjok, Trip7)
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go-B
climber
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Psalm 32, Blessed Are the Forgiven
A Maskil of David.
1 Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit m there is no deceit.
3 For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer. Selah
5 I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,”
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
6 Therefore let everyone who is s godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found;
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
7 You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance. Selah
8 I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
9 Be not like a horse or a mule, without understanding,
which must be curbed with bit and bridle,
or it will not stay near you.
10 Many are the sorrows of the wicked,
but steadfast love surrounds the one who trusts in the Lord.
11 Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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But back to the original question: Why do so many believe in god?
Short answer: an Afterlife
Longer answer: Modern higher consciousness primates, humans, want very very
badly to believe that physical death is not the end of their existence.
Evidence of this is found as far back as 15-20,000 years ago when burial
grounds are unearthed that show people laid to rest along with some of
their favorite artifacts, weapons, adornments, to use in case they would be
reborn in some kind of conscious afterlife.
In seems we are hard wired to want to believe that somehow we go on and on.
Almost every religion has as it's core this belief in an afterlife.
The very structure of religion is to promote and legitimatize through ritual
preparation for an afterlife that both rewards and punishes earthly behavior.
The concept of a deity goes nicely along with the strong desire for leadership in the hereafter.
If blind salamanders had our consciousness, they would want the same.
Sadly, wanting something is only a concept, and contributes nothing to
the concept being true, or untrue. It is just a desire, like wanting to eat.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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I'd like to take this opportunity to be more clear about something.
I "believe in" Hypercrates. Hypercrates is either (a) the personification of fate or (b) the personification of higher powers (of fate). Just as the Grim Reaper is the personification of death. That's it.
It's only by extension and it's only because it's handy... that I sometimes call Hypercrates "God Hypercrates" or simply "God." (Similar to Plumber Joe.)
Humans like to personify. Over the years, it's been clarifying and helpful for me to have Hypercrates (hii puhr' kruh tees) as a personification.
Again, I don't first and foremost think of Hypercrates as a God any more than I think of Mother Nature as a God or the Grim Reaper as a God.
But it sure is handy sometimes to have Hypercrates to contrast with Jehovah. As needed.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Make Death your bitch.
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go-B
climber
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Proverbs 9:10, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Because they are afraid of death.
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krutley
climber
here, now
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May 10, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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Cause we all have the right to choose of our own free will. Just don't choose for anyone outside yourself.
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mushroom
Trad climber
USA
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May 10, 2010 - 12:07am PT
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"Belief in God" is an oversimplification of a very complex topic. Lets take a look at how many different faucets God can encompass:
1. Did the universe come to be or was there a creator behind it?
2. Are there recognized universal laws? Gravity? Karma? Cause and effect?
3. Is there a judge who decides whether our actions are ethical, providing, or limiting from us, access to some reward-land at the end?
4. Is there a all-powerful entity that can even break said laws of #2 (aka miracles)?
5. Is there knowledge or do we really not know anything for certain at all?
This is just the beginning of the faucets that God can encompass.
Next comes the argument of the logical positivists: does your statement about belief in the supernatural really mean anything at all? Sure, one person can say, "I believe in God" and another, "I don't believe in God", but perhaps these are both ridiculous statements that don't have any meaning whatsoever. It is, indeed, possible for us to just piece words together by the laws of grammar and come up with meaningless statements: "I believe clouds give great hugs". What?
The problem with the American perspective on the super natural is this: people are criticized for their lack of faith in God. Perhaps, rather, our tribulations with faith are all part of our path through life. Periods of believing and not believing are both totally natural processes.
I prescribe to the latter. How you feel at any given time is part of the natural course of things. Your delving into and out of faith is all part of the path. I avoid the use of the world God and prefer terms like "the central order of things" and "infinite intelligence" because these are the specific answers to my aforementioned questions which I attest to. The word "god" is just too easily misconstrued and I wouldn't want to be confused with one of Them. Knaw mean?
To answer your question, it's a mixture of society and lack of thought. People don't spend the time to do the thinking to figure out what they make of the world, but society has a nice corner it'd love to push you into.
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krutley
climber
here, now
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May 10, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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wc - dont know where you got the pie chart, but sitting here in the middle of Hindu belt, N India, I'm looking at >50% disordered. I may be ugly, and murkan, but i aint ugly murkan.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 10, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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I like what mushroom said...and I want to change what I said. In my opinion, the number ONE answer is "Their parents taught them to."
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 10, 2010 - 09:37am PT
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Greg,
You are right. We are given a responsibility and will be held to account for it.
Is everything my parents taught me correct? No. But they did instill in me a love and respect for GOD, and others. I in turn will instill that in my children.
Proverbs 22:6 (KJV)
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."
Glenn
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 10, 2010 - 09:51am PT
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I was just stating a point in fact. Clearly, the main reason most (obviously, not all) people believe what they do with respect to God and religion is the result of direct cultural transmission - mainly from parents to children. That's the primary reason that Muslim's hold their views and Christians hold theirs.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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May 10, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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The more pain you have , the more God you need.
Not my words, but it does seem to make sence.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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May 10, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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cheaper than therapy.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 10, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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I did some of my own thinking and instead of just taking what my parents told me as the truth, I formed my own opinions and taught my child something different. This change is the only way for the human race to advance to a high level of anything. If we took our parents word for things outright, we would still be blood-letting for its health benefits.
Dave
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 10, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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because accepting that there is no afterlife is just too damn hard to do
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 10, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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Any of you ir-religious or post-religious people...
... ever notice the term "afterlife" plays right into the hands of the religious supernaturalists? (Just like "atheism.") Just for the heck of it, try the word... lifeafter... might serve better.
Here's a usage example with both terms in the same sentence.
Example: "Of course there's an afterlife (state), I "believe in" an afterlife (state), just not a lifeafter."
Sometimes "rebel freeskites" (e.g., irreligious people) trying to break out of antiquated habits, antiquated traditions, can be their own worst enemy. -When they continue to use the language and framing of the system from which they are trying to get away or leave behind.
Words matter. Language matters.
But like rockclimbing, takes practice.
Another Example:
"This life is not a rehearsal. There is no lifeafter. We are evolved beings. Comprised of 100 trillion cells. Constituted like that, how could we live forever? Lifeafter- an ancient bronze age misconception institutionalized by religions down through the centuries-- is as bogus as astrology.
Just try it. It's way more specific than afterlife and doesn't play into the hands of religious supernaturalists.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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May 11, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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What I haven't seen posted in this thread is why all of you who don't believe in God get so worked up about those who do believe in God. If it/He isn't real, then so what? Why does it make a hill of beans?
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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Corn nut
Being being falsely proud of your word jugglery is one thing.
But actually believing in your own bullsh'it is even worse.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 11, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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Robb wrote-
"What I haven't seen posted in this thread is why all of you who don't believe in God get so worked up about those who do believe in God. If it/He isn't real, then so what? Why does it make a hill of beans?"
Well, that's certainly a platitude I've heard 100 times since the 1980s. But I would've hoped, since 9/11 esp, the reasons would be evident.
1. We live in a democracy. Votes matter. Science education, science literacy, matters. An accurate understanding of how the world works matters. An accurate understanding of how life works matters.
2. Today's Abrahamic religions all operate off of an ancient theology that's chock full of bronze age misconceptions, no, better, bronze age stupidities. Because they do they are an obstacle. An obstacle to higher education (both science education and general life education. An obstacle to less contentious more informed democracies. An obstacle to better practices in the "practice" of living.
More interesting: Why does this need to be spelled out? Surely you've been paying attention to what's been going on the world: How much money have our democracies had to spend fighting against ol' time religious ideologies? Ol time religious ideologies too numerous to count out here.
By the way: Which God? Most post-religious in American culture (like Sam Harris or me or Richard Dawkins) don't get "worked up" at all over Poseidon, for example, or Diacrates (the hypothetical Intelligence millions including Einstein speculated about).
Most get "worked up" only over Jehovah (aka Allah) the warrior god of the Abrahamic religions. And then only because of the theologies developed based on Him and the crazy ideas and behaviors of religious institutions founded on these.
But it won't always be so. Times are changing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 11, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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Braun-
Give it a rest.
Your belief that... Life works through matter but is independent of it... is incorrect. Stop beating this dead horse.
Adapt. Upgrade your software. Take some life science courses. Spend your time and energy adapting to the Scientific Story (aka Epic of Evolution), not fighting it.
It's about raising awareness, Brawny, on the path to changing attitudes and behavior. But it does seem that you are set on fighting it at every turn- insofar as it conflicts with your own brand of ancient Hinduism.
Lean into the "growing pains" of change. It's how we advance, it's how we've always advanced.
Till you do, you'll always be at odds with science, science education. And with me. Good luck and good night.
"...proud of your word jugglery..."
...you only focus on the words because they're unfamiliar... if you ever went to school on the subjects behind them, they would be second nature. -Which is just the way it is with any technical discipline. Or trade or activity. Even rockclimbing.
It's late. Time to recharge the mitochondria. (Whoops, more "word jugglery," sorry...)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 11, 2010 - 06:19am PT
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Don't underestimate Werner! He carved that last post in a stone tablet and WAM! it appear on ST with a last gesture of his chisel. No stinking iPad for him.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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May 11, 2010 - 10:25am PT
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"Most get "worked up" only over Jehovah (aka Allah) the warrior god of the Abrahamic religions. And then only because of the theologies developed based on Him and the crazy ideas and behaviors of religious institutions founded on these."
i find it interesting that so few atheists "get worked up" about god but have little or nothing to say about godless societies (except hitchens) like stalinist ussr, red china, noko, etc.; stalin and mao EACH were responsible for the greatest destruction of human life ever recorded, and combined they stagger the imagination...conservative estimates credit stalin with 20 MILLION deaths and mao with 30 MILLION...and i'm talking about their own people, not the wars they participated in...take ALL the religiously motivated killings in history and you won't come near 50 million
and let's not forget the 50 MILLION babies killed in the womb just since roe
finally, to claim that there is no good to come out of religion would be equally idiotic to the claim that no good ever came from science...to condemn all religion or all religious people just because a few aholes blow themselves up in the name of allah would be equally idiotic to condemn einstein for inspiring hiroshima and nagasaki, which, i'm pretty sure outnumber in deaths the best efforts of the aforementioned aholes
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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May 11, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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"Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)"
because they can't imagine a world without a god?
because they need someone to blame?
Becuase they would not be moral if they didn't have the imaginary big brother type looking over their shoulder?
because they are weak?
the list goes on...
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 11, 2010 - 11:13am PT
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What I haven't seen posted in this thread is why all of you who don't believe in God get so worked up about those who do believe in God. If it/He isn't real, then so what? Why does it make a hill of beans?
Because the believers try to f*** up my life all too often. How about stop trying to convince my kid that there is a God by making her pray in school (...one nation UNDER GOD!!!).
And yes, big communist type civilizations that promoted atheism also did evil things. They wanted people to worship their commune and were pretty much like any set of deep believers in a higher power.
Theism and Atheism are like guns, they don't kill people, people kill people.
Dave
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Branscomb
Trad climber
Lander, WY
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May 11, 2010 - 11:30am PT
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I read an interesting book recently call Descartes' Bones, forget who the author is.
Goes into the struggle between rational thinking and religion. Really sets the present argumentation between fundamentalism and rational thought in a good historical perspective.
It made me start thinking that maybe we're in one of those times, due to a lot of uncertainities in present human existence, that a lot of people have been thrown back onto more primitive modes of thinking about the world, for whatever personal reasons.
Maybe we're in a time when we'll finally hash out all that bullshit and start thinking about things in more rational manner. I hope so because the present intensity of fundamentalism is so destructive. Hey, more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than all the world wars put together.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 11, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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Maybe we're in a time when we'll finally hash out all that bullshit and start thinking about things in more rational manner
I am currently reading William Manchester's book: A World Lit Only by Fire: The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance — Portrait of an Age
A lot of it deals with the Reformation and times that were very much like these.
As Manchester notes "intelligent people do not necessarily act logically."
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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Nothing is unreal. If you can imagine it, it is real in some sense. Just because some people give higher weight to some kinds of reality than others does not make that a correct judgment. Any God I imagine is real, the imagination is a discovery process, not just a fabrication, and the entity eventually even take on a life if it's own without me even if I'm its sole creator. That does not necessarily mean it's a very strong God but the more I invest of my energy in it, the more energy and power it gains. Many of the Old gods are very strong. This is the same way God (meaning the God comprising all the information of the universe) creates the known universe, which is really just information-energy. It is created by the focusing of consciousness to create. We are all just part of God's dream. God created us to believe we have individual consciousness as a necessity in order to avoid some problems caused by recursive looping of semi-independent conscious substructures. We have real creative power and are part of the larger God-consciousness. God co-creates reality thru us. How do I know this is true? I have experienced it. If you think "belief" is necessary because you can't experience or communicate with God, then you haven't even got to first base yet.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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Wes, you're trapped within semantics and can't see the forest for the trees. It's the position of someone who habitually accepts definitions instead of one who has experience creating them.
Science and reason are far less real than God, who can change the rules any time he wants to. Science and reason and even "laws of the universe" are only well ingrained habits.
Antonyms imply polarity. A polarity is actually a unity anyway. Take a magnet with two poles. Say One pole is Republican and the other Democrat. One pole hates the other and cuts it off. What happens? It just brings it closer to it. If you cut a magnet in half, the two poles are now just closer together. The polar enemy is an intrinsic unity.
We should learn to respect, love, and enjoy the distance from those adopting stances polarized to our own. Only a fool wants to cut that down and bring it right into his own face. Only a fool believes his polar opposite isn't actually unified with himself...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 11, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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Poor Binks- it pains me to say you've now forced me to include you in the same penalty box as Klimmer and Rokjox.
(Wait, there's poetry in there some where...)
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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I'm perfectly capable of practicing science and reason, realizing full well they are a merely an approximate toolbox. It's why I've worked for many years as a senior engineer at a technology company. The best engineers are wizards. They understand how the wiring works and will create an entirely new lexicon or language if necessary. Creators. If you're one of my reports, I'll tell you the "rules and laws" which you will take as absolute. But meanwhile I know there is an awful lot of "space" around them. So much so that mostly what we are dealing with is thin air.
But don't let my appeal to my spurious "real world authority" move you. That's just "the man". Maybe I only achieved this position in order to fully hide my foolish nature.
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WBraun
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Corn nut ...
I told you already that you're stupid dumb sh'it leg humper.
Now you're trying to do it with Binks.
Why not STFU for a change and learn something instead of lumping people here always into your narrow mental speculative idea of what they are.
You really are an idiot .....
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 11, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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I'm violating one of my personal rules by posting on a thread where I only skimmed the posts, rather than reading them carefully. If I've re-plowed a row, please forgive me.
I think applying Pascal's wager to Biblical Christianity is making an insane bet. As Paul wrote, if the dead do not rise, then we, of all people, are most to be pitied. Jesus said that one who, having put his hand to the plow, looks back is not fit for the kingdom of heaven, and He told His followers they must take up their cross daily.
The cross was simultaneously an instrument of torture, humiliation, and death, as His listeners knew all too well. Jesus was saying that being His follower is neither costless nor easy, as skimming the posts on this thread demonstrates.
I nonetheless believe in Jesus in the same way I believe in gravity, because of personal experience. I came to my faith as an adult and, like Lynnie, know Jesus as both my friend and my savior and God. In the absence of a mind meld, I can't transfer my experience to any of you, but neither can I deny it, even if admitting my belief exposes me to ridicule as a simple fool. So be it. I know what I've experienced, and my God is real.
John
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 11, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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Amen.
Jesus said, "They will hate you because they first hate me." (Paraphased)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 11, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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Brawny- what, you don't think I could give as good as I get?
You don't think I could stoop to the "leg-humping" level, too. If I wanted? C'mon, raise the discourse. Show the class you show out in the field. What are you schizo, a duel personality, on the internet? or are you just jacking around with another "social experiment"?
Take up Pate's challenge. Post up something relating to belief that's insightful, thought-provoking, a sign of deeper understanding, something more than a two-sentence punchline.
Of absurdities, shadow governments and woowoo
angels and demons, conspiracies and biblical huey poo;
Into the penalty box, oughta be a lock box,
for Binks, Go-be, Brawny, Klimmer and Rokjox.
"Nothing is unreal. If you can imagine it, it is real in some sense. Just because some people give higher weight to some kinds of reality than others does not make that a correct judgment."
yeah, right, and the moon is made out of blue cheese. And this blue cheese will someday substitute for fossil fuels and power our cars and economies. Just believe and it is so.
And when the carrying capacity of the Earth collapses from 8 billion to 2 billion, do not fear this day for God Jehovah or God Marduk or God Ashtar (but not God Quetzalcoatl or the Flying Spighetti Monster) will save the difference in a super-sized chariot of fire on a whirlwind. And all will be fine. His Will be done.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 11, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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yeah, right, and the moon is made out of blue cheese. And this blue cheese will someday substitute for fossil fuels and power our cars and economies. Just believe and it is so.
The problem is you fail to understand context. Nothing is absolutely true in every context. Often, things only true in extremely narrow contexts have incredible power (like many applications of Science, or the impact of events in fictional movies). Everything is true in some context. You folks who want to deny the existence of God have narrowed down your context so far that you have made yourselves blind.
Even worse, you want to extend your minuscule and overextended context to include things that dwarf it, like God.
I say "even worse" with the greatest of respect. I'm OK with you believing whatever you want.
If you were truly able to believe that in some contexts the moon IS made of blue cheese then you would have made a true leap of consciousness that might actually enable a revolution in energy prodution, who knows? Instead, your brain is crippled because you insist on applying things of limited context outside of their domain.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 11, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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nonetheless believe in Jesus in the same way I believe in gravity, because of personal experience. I came to my faith as an adult and, like Lynnie, know Jesus as both my friend and my savior and God. In the absence of a mind meld, I can't transfer my experience to any of you, but neither can I deny it, even if admitting my belief exposes me to ridicule as a simple fool. So be it. I know what I've experienced, and my God is real.
But you could show us your experience with gravity.
That is why atheists think that non-atheists are nuts. It's because they (the believers) seem to consider a repeatable and demonstratable experience (such as gravity) as being of the same meaning and quality as hearing voices in their heads; something that cannot be confirmed, demonstrated, or even verified to not be schizophrenia.
You say you know jesus but then I'm stuck having to take your word for it. On the other hand, I say that I know gravity and when you ask, I show you who, what, how, when, and why I know gravity. I hide nothing and I tell you that you do not need to simply believe it because your I told you so.
And yet the believers still act like the non-believers are somehow idiots for not seeing "it" even though it is invisible, unhearable, unmeasurable, and looks like a psychosis to us.
even if admitting my belief exposes me to ridicule as a simple fool
Maybe all of mankind are fools, even the atheists. Unfortunately, my beliefs make me thing that I'll never find out the answer. If the believers turn out right, I'll apologize on my way past heaven to wherever your various religions say I'll go.
Dave
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 11, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Dave,
I recognize that I can't demonstrate what I've seen, heard, or sensed. I can only tell you about it. That's why I call it my faith, not my science or objective logic.
By saying I believe in Christ in the same way I believe in gravity, I don't mean that I can demonstrate them comparably. Rather, I meant that both guide my actions in the same way. I rope up because I know what gravity does. I pray, study, worship and share because I know who God is and what He does.
Christian faith is not science. If it were, we'd go about spreading the news differently. All I can do is share my experience. I cannot make you believe, nor can I make you disbelieve. That's your choice and the work of the Spirit. I have, however, been commanded to tell the story, and I try to follow His commands with the same care I take when I climb.
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 11, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Dave wrote-
Unfortunately, my beliefs make me thing that I'll never find out the answer.
You could embrace the mystery, lean into it, take it on. (But perhaps you already do.) I do. That, too, is a life strategy that I think is gaining favor and coming more into being. In this evolving post-religious age.
Of this I trust, I have faith: There's no Intelligence (e.g., Diacrates) behind the Cosmos whose criteria of anything, e.g., morality, good v. evil, entry or not into a lifeafter, reward or punishment, turns on our believing in him or not. How childish is that? That's absurd. It's got human ideology written all over it. Made up a long time ago for ideological reasons and institutionalized down through the centuries.
What's most bewildering is how few- per cent wise in the population-- take the time to even think that through. And then again, how many others know full well what's up but play along anyway.
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bestill
Trad climber
s. ca.
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May 11, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
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if the buddha figure in the post from juan de fuca held a mirror in front of it,it would realize it was a nazi.
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go-B
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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God's blessing is the only vote that matters! It's an open book test, Jesus is the answer!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 11, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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Still believe in Santa and the easter bunny, Gobee?
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 11, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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John..well put!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 13, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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Norton....That's the xmas bunny...rj
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 13, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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"The problem is you fail to understand context. Nothing is absolutely true in every context. Often, things only true in extremely narrow contexts have incredible power (like many applications of Science, or the impact of events in fictional movies). Everything is true in some context. You folks who want to deny the existence of God have narrowed down your context so far that you have made yourselves blind."
The problem here is that when people narrow their context, they don't realize it, or they'll consider all that might be out side that context as illusionary. This is what fundamentalist materialists believe - that to be real, we must refer to some thing with measurable matter, even though QM tells us there is no such thing as matter in an absolute sense.
People believing absolutely in matter are engaged in the same thinking process as those believing absolutely in biblical scripture.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 13, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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This is huey.
re: Gods and "higher powers of fate" and theologies
We're not talking here about God in some abstract sense. We're talking about God Jehovah. Till you and the bulk of the multitudes get around to distinguishing the many and various God concepts, H. sapiens won't get any traction in this area.
But thank goodness a subculture (or two) is getting around to it. And making progress.
God Jehovah (the God underlying all three Abrahamic religions) was an ancient Mesopotamian God, akin to Marduk and Ashtar and just as fictional as the personal Gods of other cultures just 1,000 miles away in ancient Greece and Ancient Egypt.
Not a few on this site know well the concepts of "perspective" and "context" and the skill and power of applying them.
Here's a 21st century concept: dangling deities. In today's "post-religious" schools of thought, it's a faux pas to "dangle deities" just as in high school English class it is a faux pas to "dangle participles" or in high school math courses to "dangle numbers" without units.
"This is what fundamentalist materialists believe - that to be real, we must refer to some thing with measurable matter, even though QM tells us there is no such thing as matter in an absolute sense."
This is incorrect. EDIT: On several levels, too.
re: mechanistic nature of living things and mind-brain relationship
"Materialists" in regard to biology and living things believe (that is, mentally hold) that flesh and blood drives flesh and blood. What's more they believe molecular biology and biochemistry drive flesh and blood. From a different perspective, they believe there is no ghost in the body machine (as centuries of religious leaders believed and taught their congregations). From a different perspective, "materialists" believe mind (mental function incl consciousness) is what the brain does.
Here it is from a different perspective still: spiritual discarnationists believe "life works through matter but is independent of it." Wbraun comes to mind here. This belief is in direct opposition to what the materialist believes.
There is no such thing as "fundamentalist materialist." That is bogus language, a play on words. At least so it would be from many emerging perspectives, models and contexts. Mine, too.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 13, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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John...do you , personally , believe in a supreme being. rj
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 13, 2010 - 04:42am PT
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"This is what fundamentalist materialists believe - that to be real, we must refer to some thing with measurable matter, even though QM tells us there is no such thing as matter in an absolute sense."
This is incorrect. EDIT: On several levels, too.
re: mechanistic nature of living things and mind-brain relationship
"Materialists" in regard to biology and living things believe (that is, mentally hold) that flesh and blood drives flesh and blood. What's more they believe molecular biology and biochemistry drive flesh and blood. From a different perspective, they believe there is no ghost in the body machine (as centuries of religious leaders believed and taught their congregations). From a different perspective, "materialists" believe mind (mental function incl consciousness) is what the brain does.
Here it is from a different perspective still: spiritual discarnationists believe "life works through matter but is independent of it." Wbraun comes to mind here. This belief is in direct opposition to what the materialist believes.
There is no such thing as "fundamentalist materialist." That is bogus language, a play on words. At least so it would be from many emerging perspectives, models and contexts. Mine, too.
----
This is all faux scholastic hot air and is very much behind the curve per consciousness models and how consciousness "works." If you're going to jump into a conversation about "God" and consciousness you need to bring your A-game lest you'll have to sit in the corner with the pointy hat on.
The model provided above, as bore out through the history of philosophy, is actually reductionism, more specifically, material reductionism (or a sub set of "physicalism"), where consciousness can be "reduced" to atomic or chemical processes which "produce" said consciousness. That is, consciousness is a "product" or function of atomic and chemical processes, ergo, consciousness is what the brain "does."
People argue that the above, in considering consciousness as a meta-function of lower, and more fundamental chemical/atomic activities, you've introduced a kind of "ghost in the machine" that most of us laugh at as a viable concept. You can't have it both ways, runs the argument. You can't be a material reductionist, who believes that everything is no more than a sum of it's measurable parts, and at the same time say this or that (consciousness) is a function or by-product that is different than, more than, or above and beyond the basic chemical/atomic "parts" themeselves.
In other words, the only way material reductionism can stay logically viable is for everything to be the same thing. Ergo, a Fender Stratocaster is the very same thing as Jimi Hendrix's "Cry of Love," and that the Strat "created" the tune. I trust you see the problem with this.
Put in jug head terms, conscious is not something the brain does, consciousness is what the brain is. The brain doesn't produce consciousness in the old style, linear causal model. That's a cognitive style transposed or projected onto the question of God and consciousness.
"Fundamentalist Materialist" simply means that a fundamentalist cognitive mode (rigid adherence to a set of principals believed to be absolutely "correct") is applied to matter as the end-all, be all.
The subtle thing to realize here is not all the fancy justifications, but that material reductionism, which doesn't rule out emergent phenomena, nevertheless holds to an archaic form of linear causality that has much more to do with a certain cognitive style (the way a person feels comfortable thinking), and has almost nothing to do with how consciousness "is."
Bottom line: The fly in the ointment is a linear concept causality, which is really just a reflection of left brain, evaluating mind mode. Move into right brain mode and time vanishes, a phenomenon most evident in trauma research - but that's another story.
More later.
JL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 13, 2010 - 10:24am PT
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What would Lois say?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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May 13, 2010 - 10:29am PT
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Beats taking responsibiilty- "I could have avoided getting behind on my mortgage, but it was god's plan."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 13, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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Pate- Covering at least four so-called "deep" subjects in as many sentences, short ones, how's this...
(1) Jehovah is a deification. (2) Nature is physics and chemistry (3) Meat is sentient. (4) Stop whining, suck it up and deal with it.
P.S.
Pate, btw, I do expect double duty from you in the good fight ala parody against ol time supernaturalist nonsense now that Weschrist is on sabbatical.
And Norton, knock it off with the little one-liners, give us some essays to sink our teeth into.
Jaybro- if we're being religious and balanced sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation to me.
JL- I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the more profound subjects. But I dig your climbing books.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 13, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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(3) Meat is sentient.
There you have it IMO. Or half of it. Because the opposite is true as well.
Consciousness is meat.
This harks back to the old Zen maxim that "form is emptiness and emptiness is form, exactly." Put still differently, matter is energy and energy is matter, exactly.
Oddly, it looks as though everything is everything else. Remember David Boehm and all that hologram shite he was running in the 70s?
Pate - It's only complicated on the level of forms and matter, as any Quantum Mechanic or psychologist or poet can tell you. At the deeper level of being or emptiness, life just flows...
Gotta rock the matter and the spirit, and anytime you go cragging, you are, you just can't "prove" it, a process that lies strictly in the material, form, matter realm.
JL
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 13, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
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HFCS and Largo -- for me it was an epic realization that material reductionism was being misapplied outside it's proper context. You need believe nothing "supernatural", quite the contrary. It started for me with ecology. I was studying ecosystems. Within them you see all kinds of "emergent phenomena". Stuff that performs with what seems like intelligence thru feedback loops. I studied things like the "faint young sun paradox", the carbon cycle and composition of the earth's atmosphere as regulated by the biosphere.
The whole thing can be turned on it's head you see. And once you turn it on it's head you will realize that in being indoctrinated to disbelieve anything but scientific materialism we have been blinded. Coordinating intelligence (i.e. teleological processes) exist as "epiphenomena" and in these contexts material reductionism is simply false. This realization is of course heretical to material reductionism, yet it's clear in these large scale ecosystem contexts that reductionism is absurd. All kinds of coordination is happening that has to be generated by random chance if you're going to hold to the reductive model. We westerners have been trained in a way that we "can't see the forest for the trees" and have grossly misapplied material reductionism so far out of context that we have created a kind of insanity on this planet.
If you're interested in this stuff, I recommend Lewis Thomas "The lives of a cell".
Of course once you take this realization out of the context of ecology, the entire thing just keeps opening up. This stuff has been misapplied all over and the limitation to our thinking and modeling has suffered greatly. We now need to grow beyond these limitations. Probably our survival depends on it too.
I leave you with a quote from Dune:
"Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans are not threading their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities. The narrowing viewpoint of the maze should appeal only to creatures with their noses buried in the sand."
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 13, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
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As the The Police song goes . . .
We are Spirits . . .
in the Material World.
Are Spirits . . .
in the Material World.
. . .
When we die our souls return to our Creator. The Bible says this, and I firmly believe this. What we do, or do not do on this Earth matters.
Some say that our Soul has the mass of approximately 21.0g.
Could be true. More research needs to be done in this area.
Dr. Duncan MacDougall, the human soul has a mass of 21.0g:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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May 13, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Just because I can't see gravity doesn't mean I am not influenced by it. To me God is something similar.
AFS
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 14, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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my problem is not with god so much as belief, which seems to be a very compulsive thing in western tradition. you HAVE to believe. if i believe, i HAVE to testify about it. all you have to do is believe, and you will be saved. (lots of believers with other weaknesses in dante's inferno.)
i think we all have to agree that it's pretty hard to prove whether there's a god or not. might be one. might not. even if you believe, i think you have to admit this is the common state of knowledge on the subject. people claim to have special insights, but i never find them very convincing. their insights, to me, seem to be the product of their desire.
so why not leave god an open question? who knows, maybe we'll learn more about it all in a few years. maybe someone remarkable will come along--seems kinda foolish to think it all went down thousands of years ago and we're just here making time until god tells us, "that's all, folks."
if there is a divinity, i think our cues about it come from this wonderful universe. we know so much more about it today than did the writers of bibles, korans and sutras. there's more to be learned from the present than in these frozen concepts of the past.
on the other hand, the desire for a god, and life after death, which is a close companion to it, seems to be intrinsic in the human adventure. it has had many expressions. we can learn from them too--they're part of the biology and the universe as well.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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May 14, 2010 - 10:54am PT
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HFCS
Thank you for your concise answer. From a given perspective it makes perfect sense. My question wasn't meant to be a platitude. Nearly all of the times I have asked this over the years I've only received rants for answers. Refreshing to hear a well constructed arguement.
Thanks again,
Robb
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 14, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Dr. F wrote:
"Its so much bigger than our mind can understand, to make it all about God is just demonstrating how small you think the universe is:
Another word/concept for "God," reaching back to early history, is "The All," which, quite naturally, includes the Universe and everything in it - and nothing at all.
That has led some people to tell us that both the universe and God are infinitely larger than the content and evaluating capacities of our minds; and more importantly, that our minds themselves (not the content or processing aperati) are not only "no-thing," they are infinite.
So the question becomes: Is it possible for you to imagine that both mind and God are not "things," or "something?"
Again, at this point we're simply engaging in a thought experiment. We're checking our willingness to imagine God and Mind as "no thing," we're not asking you to believe something, to stop analyzing or provide a construct or definition of anything.
The next step is easy.
JL
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 14, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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The problem here seems to be the definition of god. What is it?
The difficulty,logically, is the notion of an individulaized, eternal consciousness that has the ability to empathize and interact directly and personally with our lives, I don't see the evidence for such a being.
On the other hand if you say god is simply a final term as in "energy is god as it is eternal and can neither be created nor destroyed" well, that I might buy.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 14, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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dr. f, there are a number of "proofs" of the existence of god--the cosmological argument, the ontological argument, and i'm sure others. "learned" some of it from the jebbies, but, in retrospect, it's sophistry.
my argument is that, believe it or not, everyone is pretty much in the same boat with the god business. there's only so much to be known, and we're not going to get satisfaction. when you get to that point, either you're going to say, "i'm an atheist" or "i believe". i add them together and divide by a common denominator.
i would like to inject an element of comparative religion into this. most of the people in this thread seem to have a rather christian take on the subject. from my point of view, y'all are in the tradition of mideastern monotheism. it begins with egyptian culture in what you might call the first "comfortable" civilization where life cut people enough slack to pursue these things. it's about mummies and their pantheon as much as it is about akhenaten and his "heresy," which sigmund freud so brilliantly suggested took the form of an egyptian moses leading "god's chosen people" to a promised land a generation later. not much of a god, really, when you compare the farming in egypt to that in palestine, but this is the burning preoccupation which infects the west, and i include islam in this because i think they actually have a much more realistic take on that theology, if you happen to like that theology, which i don't.
when people ask me my religion, i always tell them navajo. walk in beauty. with a coda from john keats's most famous line.
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 14, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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To call any blind man, closed minded, rigid in belief, fixed in thinkin what they want, not able to think beyond their experiences
Is the exact opposite of the truth for ANY blind man,
we have thought about reality, the evidence, our experiences,, other peoples experiences, read books, listened to authorities on both sides of the argument, and came up with a decision,
we do not believe that sight exists
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 14, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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Dr. F wrote:
What is God then??
You can chase words around if you want, and God can be nothing to you, or not
But In this universe
Nothing = No God
Dood, you dodged answering the thought experiment, so I will put it to you once more: Is it possible for you to imagine that "God" is not a thing?
Once more, I am not asking you for an "answer," a description, to believe anything, to think a certain thought or not think a thought. You don't have to provide anything. You merely have to show a willingness to imagine. Nothing more.
Paul said: "The problem here seems to be the definition of god. What is it?
I would add that the "problem" is our insistence that God "be" exactly what we want him to be - another article for our evaluating minds to judge and to "know" in the standard way. Dr. F mentioned "running around after words," when in fact his quest to find God is merely running around after things. Are we surprised that he doesn't find them?
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 14, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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another aspect of the god question is this: is western theology barking up the wrong tree?
again, from my point of view, which began with a heavily catholic education, the standard western god flunks on two counts: human sexuality and war.
face it, sexuality is essential to more complex forms of life and it's tremendously powerful. i would conclude that it probably reflects whatever is at the heart of it all. so-called pagan theologies all recognized this, but christianity seems to dodge it and give us a lopsidedly male god, with the further obfuscation of trinitarianism, and a pretty much non-erotic mother goddess. seems pretty far afield from the lives we all live.
and then there's war, oh prince of peace. darwin explains that much, much better.
as i understand it, the latest cosmology, based on the recent discovery of planets in other solar systems, indicates that earth is a rare bird indeed. biochemists and biophysicists seem to feel that evolution here took place due to a very fortuitous and narrow set of circumstances--water ice from out mars way coming in to where it could melt, and the early earth getting punched by something which became our rather unusual moon. maybe one planet like this per galaxy. sorry, hollywood.
fred hoyle, the cambridge astrophysicist who coined "big bang", was an avowed atheist until he began to understand the triple alpha process of carbon fusion, a rather unusual thing in the thermonuclear realm, to the point where he declared, carbon being so essential to life, "the universe is a set-up job".
hey, all this is way over my head too, but i think the heart of the god question is closer to this than anything you'll ever hear in a church.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 14, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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to JL:
"truth is the highest god" -- gandhi
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 14, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
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Another interesting thought experiment for materialists is this: Describe what you would like God to be in terms of capacities, attributes, and so on.
This is especially interesting because it commonly exposes a person's fixations, and the ego and rational mind's enormous resistance to the idea of "God." What the NLP folks used to call, "Stuck in a perspective."
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 14, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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well, since no one asked:
"beauty is truth and truth beauty; that's all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." -- keats, ode to a grecian urn (it's why we all have to study it in high school)
"how do i know, the bible tells me so." -- dale evans, whom i encountered at the lone pine film festival, a couple years before she passed away. she was a living example that it's possible to be an octogenarian and pretty. the truth was in her good looks.
binks, i've been looking for something to read. will order both "lives of a cell" and "dune". muchas gracias.
and my recc: simon conway-morris, several books on evolutionary biology. if you take sides in this debate, he's for you believers. he has a great debate going with the late stephen jay gould, who was for you atheists. add 'em up. divide by the common denominator.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 14, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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Largo wrote
I would add that the "problem" is our insistence that God "be" exactly what we want him to be - another article for our evaluating minds to judge and to "know" in the standard way. Dr. F mentioned "running around after words," when in fact his quest to find God is merely running around after things. Are we surprised that he doesn't find them?
Nice. This is the big problem with many of the well intentioned gurus of atheism and their arguments...They shoot down a image of God left over from old cultures and their projections.
Science claims everything is made of the same vibrating energy. All is ONE ENERGY in science ultimately. It is obviously capable of manifesting in intelligent ways. You can start with that, call it God and let the search refine itself from there.
Is there LOVE? How to prove it? God is similarly elusive even if there are symptoms. If you were lost in a dream some night, how would you prove to the other dream characters that they were in an unreal world and merely the creation of some middle-aged guy made of meat lying in a bed in California?
Every religion in the world can be full of crap and it would prove nothing of God or lack of God, much in the way that 100 5 year olds could meet and try to agree on what sex is, or what it is like to be an adult and never come close.
It's a mystery that can be explored within but proof without will evade us. The game doesn't work that way.
If you take the time, open your mind and heart, and seek the truth without preconception, some awakening will inform you and an inner evolution begins. You can't prove this to others but it serves your life every minute and disbelieving it becomes a joke.
Peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 15, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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Craig said: "No, I cannot accept God to be: "not a thing", or "nothing"
Still no cigar. The thought experiment is: Is it possible for you to imagine - not, Can you accept.
But really this was a trick question all along because I knew you would never go there. What it shows is that you have a fixation about the way God HAS to be, to the extent that you won't even allow yourself to IMAGINE He might be otherwise. So like I was saying elsewhere, this discussion is merely masquerading as a conversation about God, when what is most being exposed are patterns of mental fixations, the subjects being interchangable - be they Republicans, God, matter, martians, yada yada.
Interesting inquiry.
JL
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 15, 2010 - 04:26am PT
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We find ourselves alive in this strange existence confronted with love and hate, beauty and horror, sorrow and happiness, and always near to us the anxiety of anticipation and the dread of our own inevitable annihilation.
As well, we find ourselves compelled by curiosity as to what we are, how we got here and what our lives mean, if anything.
We are overwhelmed by the sublime nature of the “mysterium tremendum et fascinans” and so demand, through a host of anthropomorphic deities, a reconciliation to our existential dilemma.
The very structure of our minds both forms and reflects our understanding and curiosity with regard to the natural world.
Reason is a product of the construction of our minds; our minds like our senses are the products of natural forces and an evolution that favors us as the survivors of a long struggle for viability. How is it that evolution would favor sensory perception that deceives us? Survival itself dictates the accuracy of our senses! Can’t we say the same for reason?
Reason, not unlike our sensory perception, is a natural mechanism that favors our success as inhabitants of this world. Why would we abandon it except as a path to reconcile ourselves to what we think we simply cannot abide?
And more to the point, why would a god give us a “reason” that so favors our success and yet so often stands vehemently against the faith many say he demands?
Nobody can, and nobody wants to, argue against a god that can be anything; certainly all possibilities are possible. What god might be or when and how god might function beyond being is a fascinating question but perhaps that fascination may elicit too easily the abandonment of reason for the pleasure, fascination and reconciliation allowed by faith.
Unfortunately the sleep of reason too often produces monsters.
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ruppell
climber
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May 15, 2010 - 04:37am PT
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god is a thing
stocks are a thing
god is a stock
the devil is the details
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 09:31am PT
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sounds good, paul--if you wrote that yourself, i want to be your agent.
go-B: i never read bible quotes. it would work better if you pretended you wrote that yourself. kinda like slipping a mickey.
largo: someone told me you attended claremont school of theology. true? your point of view sounds a lot like professor griffin's process theology.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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Try my thought experiment
If our culture was completley devoid of any thought about God, or religion
No one discovered it yet.
What modern day experience, or circumstances would make someone discover God, (or for a really long shot, Jesus)
People regularly experience synchronicities, unexplainable by science, that point to the interconnectedness of things and suggest an underlying intelligence in our world.
People regularly experience expanded states of consciousness that provide direct insight that a higher Being exists and is a part of us and our world. Often these states are triggered when our mentally created structure of the world is suspended by climbing fatigue, an accident or trauma, or meditative practice.
An awareness of a divine nature beyond ourselves is built into each of us. Not having religion would probably result in the rise of new and more clear religions as the old ones with their ancient cultural bias more appropriate to another time wouldn't hold sway. I thought religion was totally ridiculous playtime stories until I directly experienced something far beyond the fairy tales within myself. We tell fairy tales to our kids but that doesn't mean there's not some true reality that we don't know how to explain to them yet
Peace
Karl
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FredC
Boulder climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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I'm glad that Paul wrote about defining god. I think that if all the believers would just develop a consensus about what we are talking about it would help the discussion. It would be fun to watch that process anyway. The concept of god seems to be on a sliding scale from some vague kind of energy thing at one end to a very grumpy large sort of gaseous man floating up there somewhere on the other.
Quite a few "wise" people have suggested that the best way to actually answer the god question is to look really hard directly at the one who is asking it. Who is it that wants to know? I think you might have to do this for a long time. I hear caves might help too.
I think a topic like this burns so brightly here especially is because as outdoor people we are more exposed to the sharpness of our experiences of nature. It's like being a kid and looking at the night sky and thinking "holy cow, how big is this deal?". Then your mind sort of hits the wall for a moment.
Some threads really do feel like what might happen around a campfire.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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Fact is Dr. F. you don't know about what you haven't yourself experienced. Why not leave it at that if you want to be scientific? Your assumptions are rubbish to one who knows, just as a toddlers imagination of what orgasm might be would be off the mark.
As for Jesus, you don't have to know that name (a greek name that Yeshua of Nazereth wasn't even called during his life) to be transformed and touched by the Spirit of the "Son" of God. (the aspect of the divine that offers Grace and awakening) It's generally true that when people have spiritual experiences, no voice says, "this is Jesus working on ya" it's just that people pray to Jesus and get an answer and either feel or assume it's Jesus at work. God answers to any name called with the sincere intent just as a parent would answer a baby crying "do do, help!"
It's natural to resent and resist religion for many reason.. corruption, abuse and hypocrisy on one side, and our own resistance to fearing judgement and control on the other. It's sad because the real truth judges not but springs from pure love.
Of course, we are wounded and even fear pure love. That's one thing to look within and purge any fear of love and exposure from your system. Once you are open to love and your own self, spirituality comes naturally and without doubt
Peace
karl
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 15, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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Tony Bird. Holy cow, Tony! You get the award for being able to pick an arrowhead out of a haystack.
Tony wrote: "largo: someone told me you attended claremont school of theology. true? your point of view sounds a lot like professor griffin's process theology."
My adviser at Claremont was John Cobb, who I did all my grad Whitehead/ Process studies under (Oral exams on Process and Reality from Prof. Cobb were no cake walk), and many of the hardcore philosophy classes I took were from David Ray Griffin - a sharp dood, but he went south with all that 9/11 conspiracy jibberish.
It is true that much of what I write here can be framed in "Process" language, but the better part of it all came out of practicing Za Zen for many years.
I usually leave off mentioning sources or quoting this guy or that group, not wanting to frame my ramblings as some specie of faux scholarship, or to get all uppity and erudite in a campfire conversation.
But yeah, I did the book work and if you want to approach this from a standard, western philosophical or theological vector, I can surely go there with you.
BTW, the issue of matter and spirit is ancient, and got kindled in this last round, circa 1777, by a Brit named Joseph Priestley.
But I better stop here. Once again, great catch there, Tony.
JL
Postscript: Baba wrote: "Fact is Dr. F. you don't know about what you haven't yourself experienced."
I don't want to pile onto Craig, who is a friend who I grew up with, but another approach to this might be - instead of attacking or trying to catagorize the experiences that other people have had, as mentioned above by Baba, why not ask some questions? And I don't mean "set-ups," which are phrased as questions but for which you already have the "right" answer in your head. If there's something you don't know, why not ask, instead of writing the whole thing off as unknowable? Why bet against yourself like that?
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Binks
climber
Uranus
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May 15, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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But my bet is no one would discover God, or Jesus, they would live good lives without any Religion
I don't have any need for religion and I find I dislike most of them, but I experience God. So I think your theory is pretty much already shot down.
On another note, admitting that the universe is energy is admitting that it is just information. If the universe is just information, then it is in a sense virtual. If everything is energy\information, then virtual realities that we create are potentially the same as "real" reality. Once we create AI we will create virtual universes within our own that have any sort of laws or gods that we want them to have and they may evolve in ways we could never predict. To me this is part of how I understand that God is greater than any science. The laws of this virtual\energy\information universe we inhabit are mutable.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 15, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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But my bet is no one would discover God, or Jesus, they would live good lives without any Religion
This is probably true, but says little about God/Spirit, which exists and influences us tremendously whether we think about it or not. Religions are admittedly packed with culture and superstitions that pass for knowledge about God so it's debatable how much they add or detract from our relationship with Spirit.
We might compare organized religions to the state of science in the dark ages and say that people would have lived good lives without knowing the state of science in the year 1000. That would say nothing about the existence of natural laws and their potential benefits.
Peace
Karl
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go-B
climber
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May 15, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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Isaiah 55:9, For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 15, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
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If I may be so brash as to ask a question of you...
What is religion, is it not man working his way up to God i.e, through a good life, keeping certain rules etc.?
Dr.F, to answer your question, perhaps He would come down and introduce Himself...how novel!
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jstan
climber
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May 15, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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On the existence of (a) god.
It is most important that non-believers think clearly. There is no real world evidence either for or
against the existence of a god, any god. So we cannot say there is no god. But since there is no
evidence a god has ever affected anything in the real world, where both believers and non-believers
live,
the question whether any gods exist is patently unimportant. There is nothing practical to be gained
from having an answer.
There is a reason believers so frequently assert the "existence" of god(s). By raising that completely
moot point, we become occupied with non-sense. Be wary anytime you let an opponent frame the
discussion.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 15, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Tony Bird. Holy cow, Tony! You get the award for being able to pick an arrowhead out of a haystack.
Tony wrote: "largo: someone told me you attended claremont school of theology. true? your point of view sounds a lot like professor griffin's process theology."
My adviser at Claremont was John Cobb, who I did all my grad Whitehead/ Process studies under (Oral exams on Process and Reality from Prof. Cobb were no cake walk), and many of the hardcore philosophy classes I took were from David Ray Griffin - a sharp dood, but he went south with all that 9/11 conspiracy jibberish.
It is true that much of what I write here can be framed in "Process" language, but the better part of it all came out of practicing Za Zen for many years.
I usually leave off mentioning sources or quoting this guy or that group, not wanting to frame my ramblings as some specie of faux scholarship, or to get all uppity and erudite in a campfire conversation.
But yeah, I did the book work and if you want to approach this from a standard, western philosophical or theological vector, I can surely go there with you.
BTW, the issue of matter and spirit is ancient, and got kindled in this last round, circa 1777, by a Brit named Joseph Priestley.
But I better stop here. Once again, great catch there, Tony.
JL
Postscript: Baba wrote: "Fact is Dr. F. you don't know about what you haven't yourself experienced."
I don't want to pile onto Craig, who is a friend who I grew up with, but another approach to this might be - instead of attacking or trying to catagorize the experiences that other people have had, as mentioned above by Baba, why not ask some questions? And I don't mean "set-ups," which are phrased as questions but for which you already have the "right" answer in your head. If there's something you don't know, why not ask, instead of writing the whole thing off as unknowable? Why bet against yourself like that?
JL,
My good friend and my one time Methodist pastor John F., below in the picture also went to Claremont School of Theology, and had David Ray Griffin for a few classes. Brilliant man David Ray Griffin.
Griffin has an absolute sharp mind and ability for reason and logic. You should read some of his books on 9-11, and don't poo-poo them. Truth will set you free. Hard to stomach I know, but evil abounds in this World and some see through it crystal clear.
God's peace.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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the truth to tell, i'm probably a bit south of david ray, but i won't worry this thread with that.
i discovered recently that i had subscribed to a process theology, that of pierre teilhard de chardin, for quite a number of years without knowing it fell into that category. as i said, i think that science just broadens one's perspective of these things. the fact that teilhard has been so roundly ignored in the debate of belief and evolution indicates, i think, that the winning of argument, as embodied in some of the jousting on this thread, is more important to a lot of people than the seeking of truth.
i got a good definition of philosophy from my education, and i don't think it goes over anyone's head: philosophy is a discussion among friends about the way things are. discussion maintains friendship. when it becomes argument, you become adversaries. and maybe you stop getting anywhere.
for teihard, there was no conflict between his lifelong faith as a jesuit priest and his appreciation of evolution as a professional paleontologist. his scheme of things involved stages of creation: cosmogenesis, biogenesis, noogenesis or the rise of thought, and christogenesis, the injection of a divine element into humanity. he introduced two terms which have had widespread use: the noosphere, representing all the thoughts that go on in the world, and point omega, his conjecture that all is headed for a divine consciousness.
quite a trip, really, but i found it wearing thin in terms of my own life and milieu. as e.e. cummings put it, "there's a hell of a good universe next door--let's go!"
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pa
climber
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May 16, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Dr.F,
you are right..."God" is hard to Google.
Must have something to do with "Free Will" and "Choices"...or some such static.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 16, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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Dr.F- "Maybe he should..."
"He" already has...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 16, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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You can reframe it, too. It's not an issue of denial. It's not an issue of honesty. Not for many.
Indulgence. Nobody denies the power of the indulgence. But on many fronts, the indulgence interfers with better practices in the practice of living.
cf: (a) the softly spoken magic spells (b) opium
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 16, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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I am reluctant to respond...but I am competitive and see what others have said...what I put forth in support of God is the Bible...what is the Bible...just a book..I think not...lets delve into that some more....
Since it is the written portion of what God and Jesus is all about it is a very important document...the only document left to us through out time. If you disagree....reference your point as I:
The bible contains 66 books, written by 40 authors, covering a period of approximately 1600 years. Kinda long for those that are conspiracy theorists.
The Old was written mostly in Hebrew ( a few short passages in Aramaic). About 100 years or more before the Christian Era the entire old testament was translated into the Greek language.
The word Bible comes from the Greek word biblos.
The word testament means "covenant" or agreement. The Old Testament is the covenant God made with man about the salvation before Christ came. The New Testament is the agreement God made with man about his salvation after Christ came.
In the old testament we find the covenant of law. In the new testament we find the covenant of grace which came through Jesus Christ.
The Old commences what the New completes
The Old gathers around Sinai
The New around Calvary'
The Old is associated with Moses
The New with Christ
The authors were kings and princes, poets and philosophers, prophets and statesmen. Some were learned in all the arts of the times and others were unschooled fishermen. Other books soon are out of date but this Book spans the centuries.
Most books are provincial and only interest the people whose language it was written, but not this book. No one ever stops to think it was written in what are now dead languages.
Believing takes faith....I put to those that argue..put forth another document that supports your evidence of another what ever...I have only began to scratch the surface. Why do I believe...I have seen the work He has done....Yes because I don't believe in a coincidence, Karma, or Luck...doctors believe in the unexplained, and yes prayer does work. That is all I am out........
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 17, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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Acid, etc. (for the most part) wears off. Religion is a mind-altering drug where the users have an infusion pump permanently attached--and some of them are hitting the button a little too often.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 08:17am PT
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on the other hand, what the hell.
"dare i disturb the universe?" -- j. alfred prufrock
"to be alive is to undo your belt and look for trouble." -- alexis zorba
klimmer: a welcome post up there. humanity currently has three divisions--predators, prey that doesn't know it's prey, and prey, like you and i, that does. that truth didn't make me free, but it sure organized a lot of chaos. i raised the subject with john in a gym conversation once, and he didn't want to go there then. he isn't the only smart guy like that. DRG is another story. he writes like an angel and speaks superbly to adoring audiences, but my experience of him in person is that there are places he doesn't like to go either.
HFCS: glad i'm not the only evolutionist in the playpen. that mystifies me too, this compulsion to have our sorry asses saved. where are they coming from with that? i guess their churches keep telling them what scum they are because adam ate an apple. i was tempted to strangle the priest at my mother's funeral who couldn't get off his sin kick and spend 15 seconds admitting what a great woman she was. i think the whole church would have cheered me on.
my cat doesn't need to be saved, and she's way further down on the evolutionary scale from me, but try to tell her that. she's an angel too, except when something smaller comes around to get its wings torn off. i think christianity is incapable of answering blake's query of the tiger: did he who made the lamb make thee?
largo: in my ongoing paranoia, i'm beginning to suspect that academia intentionally forces graduate students into narrow specialties so they don't start nibbling in the department next door or across campus and learn too much. i never made it to orals, and my name became mud for convincing one of their star students that it would be better to have babies with me than to continue jumping through all those hoops.
evolutionary science seems to be headed in the direction that, while the human race is quite special, there is really nothing essential about us that can't be found, at least in buds, among our fellow living entities. certain things evolve again and again in the history of life. predation showed up early and has created great diversity. one hates to look at it, but predators and prey need each other. in a way, that means we needed dick cheney and he needed us.
intelligence re-evolves again and again. octopuses are damn bright mollusks. chimpanzees, the DNA scholars tell us, are closer to humans than to gorillas, and gorillas can be taught vocabularies of up to about 500 words, close to the number of kanji characters the average japanese must learn in order to read a newspaper. other primates can't write symphonies, but lyrebirds and mockingbirds are respectable rhapsodists and jazz-like improvisers. and chimps, they tell us, make real war on each other in the wild.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 17, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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TB- "i guess their churches keep telling them what scum they are because adam ate an apple"
Never been called or considered "scum" in church, nor anyone else(including you).
Simply "loved"...
"God so loved the world..."
And it was some kind of "fruit" that Adam ate, doubt if it was an apple, most likely it was a fig...
Regardless, it was because he disobeyed/didn't trust God, and desired to "become like God". The same "sin" that Lucifer/Satan committed.
"I will be like the most High!" Isiah 14:14
"...and you will be like God." Genesis 3:5
Tony Bird- "did he who made the lamb make the".
Of course!
And the tiger and the lamb lived in peace in the Garden until the fall.
But of course Blakes Lamb is Jesus, and the "Tyger" could be perceived as evil or Lucifer perhaps...He also gave the angels "choice".
EDIT: "My cat doesn't need to be saved."
Your cat is not conscious(have the knowledge)of good and evil!
BTW, I enjoy reading your posts Tony...they're food for thought!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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thanks for the compliment, TripL7--it means all the more since we disagree.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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May 17, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
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ok. lemme esplain...
can we all agree it's a miracle that we are here ? can we just get that one down ?
ok...now...give it a name...
BANG ! FAIL... you've just lost it. now you've got My God is better than your God and it's all f*#ked up from here. As soon as you get any more than 'Hey, check it out. Here we are - we should appreciate this and treat each other accordingly...' YOU'VE LOST IT. COMPLETELY. Why do we fail here...why why why....
we fail at Step 1. We all know it's *something*, then we define it to the point where I have to kill you and you have to kill me and we're both going to hell forever because of what someone else believes anyway...
Why can't we just Get It ?
It's so damn sad it makes me cry.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 17, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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Paganmonkey- Keep the faith. Times are changing. Evolution of belief is underway. Despite its fits and starts, despite its inefficiencies.
The advice that works for me: Don't always focus on change year to year, let alone day to day.
Who said it first, was it Benjamin or Samuel J. or Samuel C. or... "A watched pot never boils."
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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May 17, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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;-)
kill infidel, repeat step 1...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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May 18, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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People discussing the reality of the spirit-that-moves-in-all-things is like fish discussing the reality of water.
Most fish probably don't understand the basic chemistry of water, much less the physics, biochemistry and physiology of water-based systems. That doesn't seem to slow down their ability to live in the reality of water.
And then there is the question of fish discussing whether or not fishermen are real. Lots of fish have experienced contact with fisherman of the first, second, third and fourth kind.
Many fish have no direct experience with fishermen and might argue against the idea that fishermen really exist. And perhaps some fish would argue that you just need to accept on faith the existence of fisherman.
There are still enough fish that don't believe in fishermen; so that fishermen can continue to catch and eat fish.
The moment of truth is a term from bull fighting. It refers to the moment when the bull suddenly perceives the difference between the cape and the bull fighter. At that point the bull fighter has only one chance left to survive - by killing the bull on the next charge.
We have much to learn...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 18, 2010 - 02:05am PT
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Well, it was always my understanding that the moment of truth refers to the "moment" a child raised in a traditional Christian family realizes at once (a) that the science model is spot on and (b) that the world isn't a god kingdom or a three-layer cake.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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May 18, 2010 - 04:20am PT
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Why do you believe in God? was Juan's original question....
and like I said 3 1/2 years ago in essence --- "Who are you gonna call?"
By the way, I am just blown away with the beyond wonderful, insightful, academically written posts submitted in this second go round of this ageless question, by those who know the true and living God; those who have flown the bombers, walked in mine fields, held their buddy as he bled out; who have watched the miracle of their child being born, who have asked that high power to heal one's own body and watched that miracle progress, who in burying their loved ones release that spirit to a safe and eternal place; who know that this life is but a blink in cosmic time; who know when they top out or finally reach the top of whatever they are challenged to climb - that the vista rewarded them was created for them for just this very moment by a power greater than themselves; who know that the lion and the lamb are but one gene apart and all of us are linked by virtue of our common ancestry of Adam and Eve. To believe in God is to possess that peace that passes understanding and we don't have to worry or question because we know that we know that we know that we know. One just has to live long enough in this world and with his fellow man to come to believe in God.
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PaulC
Social climber
Traffic Jam Ledge
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May 18, 2010 - 10:41am PT
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Tony B & Largo,
Process theology.... Dang. Not exactly light reading. About the only accessible intro is Bob Mesle's book. Whitehead was incredibly brilliant in many diverse areas.
Paul
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 18, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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mom: sounds like you believe in the god of war, not the god of love. they say there are no atheists in foxholes. i wonder if your god could get on without it.
paul: i'm not into process like largo, and, as i said, i've gotten out of the part that i was in. i wish largo wouldn't talk down about it. if it were advanced physics it'd be a different story. he probably thinks i'm a flake anyway--like so many others, when the subject of 9/11 comes up, he's outa here. i think you only need the basic brains it takes to serve on a jury to see anomaly after anomaly and coverup after coverup, but, as with simpler things, you have to look, slightly before you can see.
griffin has already written three or four books on the subject, beginning with "new pearl harbor," which really put me onto it. he says he used to write books that put people to sleep. now he writes books that keep people awake at night.
BES1'st: parmenides is my favorite old greek. in a couple of rather short letters he made an important observation about truth: it seems to have an existence of its own, beyond what people to think it to be.
i'm no great genius at it, but i have studied a few languages, trying to do something with all the latin that was drummed into me in catholic high school. recently i took note of what appears to be a very interesting shift in meaning from ancient greek to modern greek in one of the words used by parmenides. "alitheia"--an absolutely beautiful word in itself--is the word, both ancient and modern, for truth. but "doxa", in ancient greek, meant opinion, at least as parmenides used it. he distinguished between alitheia, truth, with an existence of its own, and doxa, or what people think to be true, which may or may not correspond to truth. doxa is related to the word for teaching, and i'm not expert enough to trace its origin, but i was surprised to discover that in modern greek, "doxa" now means "glory". a rather common expression is "doxa to theo", or "glory to god". opinion--glory. and orthodoxy, of course, is "the right opinion". bears a bit on this discussion, don't you think?
buddhism seems a good foil to the religion of the west--very similar in so many ways, but they never deal with a "supreme being" and attendant mysticism. rather, they speak of enlightenment.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 19, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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i'm not a lawyer, BES, but i've had experience as a reporter covering courts. i fail to see a good reason for putting a lid on ANY matter before the courts. we used to be a much more open society, and we've become quite secretive and controlling, and the courts have become notorious for cooking up technical excuses to keep matters out of the public eye.
i don't know what you mean by laches. are you an attorney yourself? if you'd like to discuss this--it is off topic, but this thread seems to be winding down anyway--feel free to email me.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 19, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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i'd like to add a personal note here, and thanks for those who have been appreciative, and perhaps some apology to others.
i started life as a pretty good catholic little boy and pursued that course as far as i could. catholics are a little different from the mainstream of america, which i feel i'm dealing with here. fyi, my first wife was a lutheran, and i learned a lot from her about the independence and integrity of protestantism. catholics are pretty much led around by a ring through their noses, but i think they're closer to the heart of the christian tradition.
climbing has meant a lot to me--it helped me get over a divorce and gave me a lot of self-confidence, health, and appreciation of things i would never have known about otherwise. i'm not the sort of fellow who likes to get into people's faces, although my work as a newspaper reporter taught me a lot about the relativism of any given point of view.
anyway, what happens to us when we die?
i had some unexpected insight into that overtake me nel' mezzo di cammin di nostra vita--dante's words for the midlife crisis. this was not something i sought out, but i was privileged to become acquainted with a talented psychic and have some contact with three deceased relatives, people who had meant much to me and who seemed to have some unfinished business with me. i never would have sought such a thing out myself, but i came away with a sense that, yes, the heart does go on, as they say in the song from "the titanic", and it laid to rest the anxiety we all feel, believer or not, about our possible extinction at death. i would not be challenging things that are sacred to others if i had not gone through this. there are shyster psychics out there, but when you start hearing from a total stranger about things that happened 40 years previous a thousand miles away--well, it becomes pretty convincing.
i've tried to approach the issues of this very interesting discussion as they make sense to me. being mezzo italiano, i can be confrontational and emotional. italians seem to have a grace for doing that and remaining on speaking terms nonetheless. think of other italians you have known and try to take me with a grain of salt.
and sorry to have crossed swords with largo, whom i much admire and for whom we can all be thankful as an unusually approachable celebrity in our sport. i would not have done so were i not convinced of the importance of what is at stake.
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go-B
climber
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May 19, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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Matthew 1:23,“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall call his name Immanuel”
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 19, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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Tony,
I enjoy reading your insight as a reporter.
When it comes down to it, all I can really say is that GOD is, and the Soul does go on. Hard to prove but by personal experience, and overwhelming evidence that most don't want to really check into.
George Harrison, before he passed away admonished people to seek after GOD. I agree. Keep seeking after GOD.
I don't know why, but my whole life I have always wanted to know the truth no matter what. Man it is painful sometimes. I run toward it, and many people run away from it.
he probably thinks i'm a flake anyway--like so many others, when the subject of 9/11 comes up, he's outa here. i think you only need the basic brains it takes to serve on a jury to see anomaly after anomaly and coverup after coverup, but, as with simpler things, you have to look, slightly before you can see.
griffin has already written three or four books on the subject, beginning with "new pearl harbor," which really put me onto it. he says he used to write books that put people to sleep. now he writes books that keep people awake at night.
I get it. I understand.
So true about Griffin. Lol. And I haven't been able to sleep since!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 07:59am PT
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klimmer, the words for me are beauty and truth, not god. beauty and truth i've come to trust over what has been a difficult personal life. god is a word i distrust greatly, both personally and generally.
god people jump to conclusions easily and wind up doing quite ungodlike things--witness "mom" glorifying war earlier in this thread and not seeming to care a whit about the wholesale worldrape being committed by this so-called nation under god. god easily becomes people's license to destroy nature or each other. all the trouble in the world right now seems to be focused on the middle east, the cradle of this troubled western tradition. god never brings people together. the idea seems to splinter us, no matter how close we start out. look at all the denominations it has produced, each one beginning with a quarrel. russians have fought passionately over whether to make the sign of the cross with two fingers or three.
one thing which rockclimbing taught me is that there can be pleasure in difficulty. this has been a difficult discussion--kinda like a good climb.
beauty and truth have an interesting relationship. the poet john keats noted that about the time michael faraday began discovering a similar relationship between electricity and magnetism, which today are understood as the same force. physics is tricky, like the subject of this discussion. there can be universal consensus, with a few pesky anomalies, and then someone like einstein comes along and makes very different sense of everything. and then niels bohr comes along and does the same thing to einstein. the important thing is to keep an open mind.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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BES--
since you live in orange, you'll be able to check this out.
drive over to santa ana and park in front of the ronald reagan federal courthouse. there are lots of cheapie parking meters there, and if you drive in towards the end of the day, you shouldn't have a problem.
walk into the courthouse lobby and look at the fantastic mural on the wall. this mural will blow your mind.
at the lower left of the mural, you will see a fellow who looks a hell of a lot like a rather young barack obama. he's about to mount a skateboard and head into this phantasmagoria. if you have any doubt that it's obama, notice that he's wearing a CHICAGO WHITE SOX BASEBALL CAP. i'm not kidding about this.
this mural was painted in the late 1990s and installed shortly before the building was opened in 1999.
there is a much-muffled controversy about alleged president obama. many have reported evidence that he was born in kenya, africa, not hawaii, and would therefore not meet the requirement of being a natural-born american citizen, as required by law to become president. there were several lawsuits to produce his birth records from hawaii, but these were all, ah, stonewalled, and birth certificates were never produced.
greek gps? hey, we can talk about anything here.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 20, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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I think it's so quiet because everyone's afraid BES1'st / navblk4 / midarockjock / 4damages will become their new friend.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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not photoshopped, fuca? heckuva bright milky way ...
doc F--
divinity is an old idea and part of human nature. gobs of gods for the longest time, then it all gets boiled down to one great god, with a variety of contradictory attributes. it was simpler, really, with polytheism--the contradictions could be embodied in different characters, and it didn't have to make a helluva lot of sense.
christians have devised a trinity god--one god in three divine persons. this is a mystery, i was told by the nuns, that we'll never be able to comprehend, but god seems to have clued us in on it anyway. big of the fellow(s). go shopping--we'll take care of the rest.
take a side trip into anthropology and mythology, doc. it will pacify your mind.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 20, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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Might I recommend: Book of Greek Myths, by Daulaires. It's A+.
None is better at dispelling God Jehovah for those raised to take the bible stories literally.
Good job, Wanda, at drawing virgin analogies, etc, with other Gods on the other thread. Yeah, times are changing. Finally at long last. The post-religious finally have a medium and a voice. Thanks internet. Thanks forums. Thanks blogs.
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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Book of Greek Myths, by Daulaires.
Another mental speculator who ultimately doesn't know either.
All your sources are mental speculators with no real disiplic succession going back billions of years to the original source.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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fuca--
"how the winds are laughing
"they laugh with all their might ...
"calves are easily bound and slaughted
"never knowing the reason why
"but whoever treasures freedom
"like the swallow, has learned to fly."
them stars older than a billion, sucka. planet earth is four, wiser prevailing heads tell me.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 20, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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So are yours Werner, you just can't see it.
edit- thanks Tony, C&J's Donna, Donna
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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Another big guess by you Wanda ....
Your sources only go back temporarily and fleeting.
Nothing bonafide nor summon bonum.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 20, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Your assumptions about how far back your sources go are mental speculations.
Your sources themselves are riddled with mental speculations.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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post #413 on this thread shows a picture of alitheia. she is that universal. notice that there is nothing male about her. why is that?
if any of you is about to have a daughter, name her alitheia. you won't regret it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 20, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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Jealous and angry, Athena turned Arachne into a spider.
So the question is: Is it reasonable to think of yourself as "agnostic" concerning this ancient Greek religious claim? Is it reasonable (as an individual of the premiere decision making species on the planet) to not make a decision based on a lifetime of experience and education (science education and general life education) and to not take a stand regarding this ol'time religious claim?
In contrast, in the view of many, it is "reasonable" (1) to make the decision and to take a stand regarding Athena and Arachne and (2) to extrapolate to Jehovah and Lot's wife (turned into a pillar of salt) and baby god Jesus and resurrection on the third day.
Because "you were not there" is no longer good enough reason to plead agnosticism and to not make a decision and take a stand. Get involved, exercise your decision-making power and take a stand. In the interest of better practices in the practice of living. Insofar as you haven't already, do it today.
And the naysayers will call your decision-making and expressions and declarations of it "arrogant" or "close-minded" or "preachy" or "elitist" or " exhibitions in "faux scholarship"-- let them. Get involved. Be the change you seek in the world.
Poor Brawny. Adapt, upgrade. Push the envelope like you did when you were a youngblood. Be not afraid, the sky won't fall.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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fuca! a fellow folkie!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 20, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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Werner,
Just because the Bhagavad-gita doesn't say might, maybe, could, probably, seems, etc. doesn't mean it's "bonafide" and not just more made up speculations.
Summum Bonum is a mental speculation.
edit- Tony, not a big fan, I've heard them before (and like them), and I'm quick with google.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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gimme that ol' time religion, it's good enough for me!
it was good enough for silage, it was good enough for silage, it was good enough for silage, and it's good enough for me!
it was good for uncle anus, it was good for uncle anus, it was good for uncle anus, and it's good enough for me!
it was good for the profit motive, it was good for the profit motive, it was good for the profit motive, and it's good enough for me!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 20, 2010 - 11:37pm PT
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That used to be my favorite mocking mantra. Revived when I watched Inherit the Wind. I made up my own "reframed" lyrics, too.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 20, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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<--- drinking jepson syrah 2007 here (it helps me hit the RETURN button).
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 12:07am PT
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sing it to us, huffcuss.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 21, 2010 - 12:20am PT
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Klimmer,
Where is the strength of your convictions?
If you truly believe this with all your heart you should preach it everyday, everywhere.
I suggest you start with parent night at the high school where you teach.
Why not send this important info home tomorrow with your students as a flyer?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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let's take a little turn here. let's talk about sickness. these last couple posts are about the sickness of compulsive belief.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 21, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Bears repeating I think:
re: Jealous and angry, Athena turned Arachne into a spider.
Because "you were not there" is no longer good enough reason to plead agnosticism and to not make a decision and take a stand. Get involved, exercise your decision-making power and take a stand. In the interest of better practices in the practice of living. Insofar as you haven't already, do it today.
And the naysayers will call your decision-making and expressions or declarations of it "arrogant" or "close-minded" or "preachy" or "elitist" or " exhibitions in "faux scholarship"-- let them. Get involved. Be the change you seek in the world.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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Wanda,
Seperation of Church and State.
But I do teach everyday just by the way I live my life and treat others -- The Golden Rule. It is a powerful silent ministry.
We (those of faith) teach right here everyday.
Few sadly listen.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 21, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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The great mystery in all the politics, religion, evolution, climate change, and other OT threads is how so many otherwise functional, rational people can believe such batshit craziness that is so illogical, insupportable, contrary to all evidence, against their best interests, etc., etc.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 21, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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I disagree....as you can see
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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these people need some kind of cure. we should feel sorry for them. they REALLY don't believe this nonsense they're spewing out--they're actually crying for someone to come and rescue them from their sorry-ass closed-loop thought processes.
part of the problem is jesus, of course. poor, milquetoast, spineless, effeminate pigeon jesus. if you saw "dogma" (mentioned early on this thread), they tried to float the idea of "buddy jesus". that would work much better--smiling, positive, thumbs-up guy, even though he's still wearing beard and sandals. was jesus a redhead? seems to be depicted that way for some reason. why is that?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Wanda,
On judgement day you can ask GOD that very question.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 21, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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"they're actually crying for someone to come and rescue them from their sorry-ass closed-loop thought processes."
-damn straight.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 21, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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About equivalent a refutation as quoting scripture, but I prefer it, luggi.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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klimmer--
jesus, poor cuss, suffers way too much. the guy needs a break--and a girlfriend.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 21, 2010 - 12:49am PT
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I respect others whom have differing opinions..and grow from debates...what is distrubing is there are self proclaimed experts, who's opinion is not from any known basis, who must enjoy the reverberations of their own key strokes and disillusioned themselves as legends in their own minds......I move on...Norwegian must have something posted somewhere that I can follow....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2010 - 12:50am PT
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Tony,
My soul is happy. I love my family. I love my wife and kids. We all love GOD and try to live by his word everyday. Sometimes we trip and fall, since we are human, but there is forgiveness. We are not perfect yet. Perhaps one day. We are a work in progress.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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"happiness is temporary, believe me, i know.
"it can arrive as a shining crystal and leave as the melting snow." -- joan baez (and she's a believer)
from catechism class 'way back in catholic days: "god made me to know, love and serve him in this world, and to be happy with him in heaven."
always bothered the heck out of me as a kid. you mean--god won't make me happy?
the god package does not deliver happiness. if you think that, klim, you could be cruising for a bruising. it isn't about happiness. jesus died one of the worst sorry-ass deaths you can imagine, and if you want to be close to jesus and not just riding on his coattails like freddy the freeloader, you better brace yourself for as much of that crown-of-thorns-gethsemane-sweating-blood-bruised-derided-cursed-defiled pain as you can take. it's not about the good life. forget about the good life.
america is about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. i think that's a great little dedication and i subscribe to it heartily, but i've noticed in my own life that pursuing something is quite different from getting it. remember that song about "the bright, elusive butterfly of love"? (a 60s song--before your time maybe.) it's like trying to catch a butterfly without a net--better just to watch it while you can. it's pretty, but it isn't yours.
back to my greeks (sorry). the greeks have a better word, eudaimoneia. "good spirit". happy is a seductive word. it's related to "happen". if something happens your way, you're "happy". if not, you're unhappy. try to find eudaimoneia--it won't be dependent on circumstances. or jesus. it'll come from within, and you will be independent. i do declare.
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go-B
climber
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May 21, 2010 - 08:16am PT
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Proverbs 9:10, The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.
Great Are the Lord's Works
Psalm 111, Praise the Lord!
I will give thanks to the Lord with my whole heart,
in the company of the upright, in the congregation.
2 Great are the works of the Lord,
studied by all who delight in them.
3 Full of splendor and majesty is his work,
and his righteousness endures forever.
4 He has caused his wondrous works to be remembered;
the Lord is gracious and merciful.
5 He provides food for those who fear him;
he remembers his covenant forever.
6 He has shown his people the power of his works,
in giving them the inheritance of the nations.
7 The works of his hands are faithful and just;
all his precepts are trustworthy;
8 they are established forever and ever,
to be performed with faithfulness and uprightness.
9 He sent redemption to his people;
he has commanded his covenant forever.
Holy and awesome is his name!
10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom;
all those who practice it have a good understanding.
His praise endures forever!
Proverbs 21:16, One who wanders from the way of good sense
will rest in the assembly of the dead.
Proverbs 21:21, Whoever pursues righteousness and kindness
will find life, righteousness, and honor.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 21, 2010 - 09:21am PT
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paste the whole effing bible into that window. that'll prove everything once and for all.
the other thing i distrust is this apparent need to be flattered. a buddhist god would never need flattery. if you meet the buddha on the road, kill him, and all o' that.
i'll bet largo still checks this thread. here's the deal on za zen, dood. it's one of two japanese buddhist traditions. zen is warrior buddhism. it's what you do to prepare yourself for battle, basically. you'd better learn to listen for the sound of one hand clapping--keeps your ears sharp for the swoosh of a samurai sword. but the other tradition is farmer buddhism, something they call "pure land" buddhism. that "pure land" is one flaking dead ringer for your garden variety christian heaven, except for the pearly gates.
it doesn't surprise me that a world class climber would choose the warrior way. but if you want a bigger picture, read dumeziel. three parts to every society in our stage of human differentiation: farmers, warriors, priests.
did you get tired of being a warrior and decide to become a priest?
germans have a great little proverb: wie dumme der bauern, wie großte das kartoffeln : the dumber the farmer, the bigger the potato. try the farmer way when all else fails. being dumb and vegetating has its place.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 21, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
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Dr. F,
You are out of your league. Read Michael Drosnin's Book, Bible Code and you will know that yes, Bible Code has predicted events before they have taken place. There is even evidence that the nation of Isreal, their Department of Defense used the Bible Code to know exactly when Sadam Hussein would fire skud missiles into Isreal.
Also watch the videos I posted concerning Bible Code.
Yes, even the military intelligence of nations have used it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 21, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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'll bet largo still checks this thread. here's the deal on za zen, dood. it's one of two japanese buddhist traditions. zen is warrior buddhism. it's what you do to prepare yourself for battle, basically. you'd better learn to listen for the sound of one hand clapping--keeps your ears sharp for the swoosh of a samurai sword. but the other tradition is farmer buddhism, something they call "pure land" buddhism. that "pure land" is one flaking dead ringer for your garden variety christian heaven, except for the pearly gates.
it doesn't surprise me that a world class climber would choose the warrior way. but if you want a bigger picture, read dumeziel. three parts to every society in our stage of human differentiation: farmers, warriors, priests.
----
Close, but no cigar.
Zen is divided into two basic sects: Rinzai and Soto. Rinzai has marshal art influences, was popular in Japan amongst the Samurai, the warrior-class, and is big on studying koans and practicing Zazen. Soto zen is a subtler and less driven kind of approach, which also uses koans to increase insight, but doesn't have the whip cracking from the old Japanese mentality.
So far as the "bigger picture" goes, no true zen dood is going to let you get away with that statement unchallenged. To insinuate that zen has a limited perspective, you'd first have to show me where the edges of awareness are so I understand the parameters that you speak of imply.
The other line of inquiry concerns zen being in conflict or opposition to something. That also is impossible since zen has no "content," least of all well wrought ideas, theories, facts, math equations, photos of Baby Jesus, lightning bolts, ten penny nails, lieback cracks, chiseled briskets and so forth.
Any "thing" or "stuff" or "form" you can mention or imagine in not zen. The opposite is also true, since emptiness is form and form is emptiness - exactly.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 22, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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so, i take it, your zazen was/is being done through soto? my japanese consultant tells me rinzai and soto were both founded about the same time (14th century?) by different monks. your characterization of the two is accurate, though perhaps prejudiced by your affiliation. my consultant's reaction: "if he does zazen, he has my respect." not an easy thing to earn.
my japanese inlaws, btw, were soto. no reflection on your experience, but i wish it would have done a better job with their hearts and souls, as they turned their backs on our family in inexplicable cruelty.
meditation has always eluded me. i think some are born to meditate, others are not. my mind has always been full, and efforts to empty it inspire rebellion. my own discipline involves study, memorization and thought. thought is an important word to me, and i don't have to be told i am because i think. in teilhard's sense, thought is the cutting edge of evolution in which we are all privileged to take part. it's the heart of all adventure, and adventure is basically a very spiritual thing. not just climbs and the like. making a table out of the elm branch that blew down in my back yard last year has been a wonderful adventure for me, as much as climbing and skiing.
as a writer, sense is important to me. thoughts are couched in words, but words are so often inadequate. "the sound of one hand clapping", to me, is something that i can see clearly does not make sense and should be dismissed. screw the guru who says otherwise. if you stuff such koans into your brain, or empty your brain through the koans--or whatever it is y'all do with them--perhaps you will wake up (someday) enlightened or realized or in a new place better or at least clearer than you were before. have you? or perhaps you will deliver sentences like your last, which makes no sense to me at all. trying to lay a koan on me?
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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May 22, 2010 - 01:20am PT
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Dr. F....back your shiz up.....you spew stuff off the cuff with nada...name your stuff or bow out...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 22, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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Tomy wrote:
". . . as a writer, sense is important to me. thoughts are couched in words, but words are so often inadequate. "the sound of one hand clapping", to me, is something that i can see clearly does not make sense and should be dismissed. screw the guru who says otherwise. if you stuff such koans into your brain, or empty your brain through the koans--or whatever it is y'all do with them--perhaps you will wake up (someday) enlightened or realized or in a new place better or at least clearer than you were before. have you? or perhaps you will deliver sentences like your last, which makes no sense to me at all. trying to lay a koan on me?"
Actually, the frustration you voice here is not a bad thing at all. It's natural enough insofar that you're trying to wrangle spiritual matters with the evaluating part of your mind - basically trying to wrangle no-thing with ration and words, which are made to ONLY deal with things.
What happens when you force your mind to focus on no thing - like the sound of one hand clapping. You really think this is an exercise in trying to hear a sound?
The fact that "The sound of one hand clapping" does not make sense is not the stopping point, but the starting point, and what needs to get dismissed is not the koan, but the evalauting mind. But "you" can't dismiss it because the agency that would do the dismissing is in fact the evaluating mind. The koan is the lever to transcend the evaluating mind precisely because it doesn't make sense.
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 23, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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thus the buddhist approach to ... enlightenment, one of several contemplative traditions. each claims great achievement, yet each is different and the achievements are not quite the same. yoga--many approaches to yoga there--is another one, and christians have their own. i know of no serious noncatholic involvement in this, although there is much alleged mysticism among the more flambouyant nondenominationals with their speaking in tongues and revivals. more orgiastic than contemplative perhaps. i'm most familiar with catholicism, and there are several serious contemplative orders and claims to extraordinary mystical experience--st. theresa of avila, st. john of the cross most prominently, but scads of saints and many contemporaneous catholics who have discovered a mystical karma and allegedly spend many moments with god. notably the notorious roy campbell in the last century, but an active community today as well. your obliquification--if i may coin a word for your description of how one works with koans--reminds me of the rosary devotion. you say the prayers, you meditate the "mysteries" at the same time. put all your being into it. it isn't about the words of the prayers. it isn't about the subject of the mysteries. they are supposedly the starting points.
well, john, you have my respect as well as my wife's for all that, but i guess i'd like to ask you where it has taken you, if you're at all inclined to put it into words. it seems to have taken you to a rather heavy academic program in process theology, which is one step beyond where the average monk winds up.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 29, 2010 - 09:03am PT
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kurt vonnegut had an interesting note on hammurabi. he said most people think "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is the old testament ethic and that it has been replaced with the new testament ethic of "turn the other cheek". "eye for an eye" is actually an old testament quotation of hammurabi's code, which was well-known at the time, and hammurabi's sense is "ONLY an eye for an eye, ONLY a tooth for a tooth--don't take more".
a very humane code. so many christians so often take more. you can only keep turning that other cheek so long.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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May 29, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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Why do I believe in God, seriously?...
I guess originally it was first curiosity, then hope, and eventually overwhelming demonstrable proof "which leaves absolutely no room for doubt." (
The Case for the Ressurection of Jesus by Gary Habermas, GotQuestions.org.)
Hope of living again and absolute comfort in knowing that I'm going to experience eternal life is comforting as well. (John 3:16)
What have you got to lose by believing? Well, that's easy...your soul in eternal misery in a place called hell separated from Jesus Christ forever. All a hoax you might concede? I'm not willing to take that chance and for those that are...I say a prayer for you often for this is what God commands me to do.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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May 29, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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I see there are a few scientists out there as well that need "scientific evidence". Well, you're not going to get that neither for, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Hebrews 11:3)
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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May 29, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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Don't get me wrong for the mind of a human being is extraordinary! We are just leaving out one crucial variable in the equation...God! "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:2)
So, if charity is God's love, and "...God is love." (1John 4:8b), then, since God is missing and an equation needs to be equal on both sides in order for it to work (something vs. nothing) then, as a scientist, wouldn't it be non-scientific to not consider using God in the equation?
Even the famous Dr. Werner von Braun," the father of our space program with NASA", wrote: "To be forced to believe only one conclusion-that everything in the universe happened by chance-would violate the very objectivity of science itself." He also concluded in his letter to the California State Board of Education on September 14, 1972: "We in NASA were often asked what the real reason was for the amazing string of successes we had with our Apollo flights to the Moon. I think the only honest answer we could give was that we tried to never overlook anything." (http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/aasi/aasi0250.htm);
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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May 29, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
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Pate, you bring real tears to my eyes. Really kinda crying right now. Dude, if you ever got to know the man, he was all about putting down the so called "righteous" establishment. (God did not create "priests".)
In fact my best friend, j, called them whited sepulchres. Painted nice white on the outside, but filthy rotten on the inside.
I've mentioned this for two years. No one has answered me here on ST.
Take 30 minutes of yo life and read Matthew Chapters 5,6, and 7. If humans lived this the ENTIRE planet would be changed. War, killing, hatred, etc. would be gone !
We would live a simple life. Not grasping for more stuff, but caring and sharing with those that have NADA. It would be about them not about ME. You know when all is done here and your life is Over it's what you Gave not what you Made. I could write more but who cares. ??? lynnie
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 29, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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edit: THIS is NOT in response to ANYONE in particular either!
There is no need to convince oneself after He has taken over your life. It is a personal relationship.
I know it is impossible for most to perceive, but His presence erases any doubt.
You have a body, soul and a spirit(which is where you commune with God). The spirit is not whole without Gods presence. It is empty/void and searching/yearning to be filled.
I was 100% convinced at 8 years old that Jesus is God!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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May 29, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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Lynne,
You may think you don't know me but you really do. When I read your above post, I was MOVED for I can tell by that which is in your heart comes out of your mouth and that you are a child with Christ in you! Thank God for saving our lives and it's a pleasure to have got to know you.
Speaking of predictions, God has prophesized since the beginning (Genesis) and has been 100% accurate ever since. And further more, that definition of a "Priest" sounds alot like me before I was saved and still like me when I don't let Christ's Spirit within me establish my thoughts, tell me what to look at, and guide my hands and feet. We, as saved Christians, aren't claiming to be "Saints" but quite the opposite. I'm dirt dude, just plain ol' dirt, I am nothing. But with God inside me I can accomplish more than I can imagine! I've secured my place in heaven, but will be answerable to God at His judgement seat as will EVERYONE! What my consequences will be are T.B.D. before I enter into His kingdom.
When Lynne said she was sheading tears, it wasn't just a cliche', she really meant that, for what she feels for God and you is very personal and much more than you know, which is a far cry from what you would have expected from her before she excepted Christ. I hope you don't mind me speaking for you Lynne. Like she said, it's not about her anymore but about God and others. When life is lived by God's system of management, everything extra (blessings) is extra credit.
All God is asking of everyone is to admit you're a sinner, believe with your heart (your passions and emotions) in Him, that Jesus was a real person, died the death of the cross for OUR sins, so we don't have to (go to hell), and was resurrected after the third day (defeated death). It's a gift, that means it's free, with no thought of return. But you have to reach out and take it. It's that easy.
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Trip -- "I was 100% convinced at 8 years old that Jesus is God!"
That doesn't make any sense.
Jesus was the son and God is the Father.
The son being son and God simultaneous is impersonalism.
They are only one in consciousness ...
Still there is individuality.
Simultaneous oneness and difference.
Even the material scientist can see that.
Each snow flake is different in pattern, no 2 are ever the same.
But they are all still snow ....
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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Christ never left.
How could he ever leave.
Your thinking material body, attached to a body. Something finite.
Yet you worship his teachings (Christ consciousness) and they are one and the same.
Jesus Christ never left ..... omnipresent.
Lord Jesus Christ, he claimed himself that he is coming from God as son of God.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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May 30, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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Nah, Werner's not lost. Much of what we differ over is involved with semantics (of or relating to meaning in language). Wish we could all sit down peaceably in the Valley and slowly, quietly speak our hearts.
Dean, I do believe in the triune God. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Being simple lynne the best illustration I can comprehend is an apple. The apple has the skin, the meat and the core. But it is an apple. An apple made of three parts but still an apple.
Apart from everything and all that I love is the Creator God's bottom line. So beautifully simple lynnie can get it........
Only two things matter ........jesus said only these two things are important.
1) Love God
2) Love all people
Do it. The rest is simply semantics.......Peace all and I love you. lynnie
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 30, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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hey there say... just wandering through here for a bit before i read the supertopo....
wow lynne, some sweet stuff there... :)
perhaps a bit more things to think on might add some newer things to talk about here as to some of the "same olds"...
so... hmmm, maybe i will add this, just to give a new angle on some old thoughts:
so, maybe this might help that father is the son type stuff...
not sure, but here goes:
some ideas are not as impossible as at first thought:
a son, is of a father and mother of course...
tissue, in life, and genetic makeup, etc...
then, of course in the "old times" (not meaning to insult woman) well, the father had full say-so as authority in the home... if a son grew to be as honorable as the father, he would have equal authority if a father allowed it... (course that is IF and as to matters over land, home owner responsibiltites, livestock, buying and selling, whatever...
so of couse, "i and the father are one" would fit that way...
as to historic ways of old...
but also, in a spiritual reamlm, the sun gives a good picture of three in one principles, and how they work:
the sun (as if a father position) gives birth of his "tissue" or projecting himself, etc, and the "light aspect of the sun" shines down as rays, and is visible in our world, so we can see by it... (yet, we cannot look at the sun itself)...
but they are all sun, and it functioning principles...
then, the "feel of the sun on our skin" the warmth or burning, etc, are felt but not seen, and they too, can do powerful things (though different than the light-being-seen aspect)...
this unseen part of the sun-power, is STILL part of the sun...
they all exist together as A three-in-one unit...
if the sun, goes, it all goes...
if the sun give life, here, as a three in one aspect, it is kind of like
a picture for folks to see, as to an example to help one see:
a three in one, god-unit, all equal... (father, son, holy spirit)...
the same three in one unit, you could see, also, works with water:
you can see it in lump form as a body, taking the shape of the lake it fills, etc... it can spray out, or flow out, as thick, or thin fine mist, as an outreach tool to give life, etc, or it can be vapor molecules, and felt as moisture in the air...
perhaps there are other things that a three in one type function... this is just to give a picture of the:
main...
the function action...
and the feel, as to affects...
hope this helps you all, as you continue on in these studies here...
god bless, all...
:)
*ps, god, jesus, holyspirt, etc, as in the bible, are not connected to a catholic church, the catholic church, and all churches, for that matter, like any other orginization, they just take from the bible and make a "club" about whatever suits the fancy of the man that first sets it up... then, the folks that gather in, follow that man's ideas, and it snowballs along... ultimately causing some very terrible messes, for sure...
take care in these things, so as to not mix god up in the man made messes...
:)
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 30, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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hey there say, lynne, wow, what a perfect timeing note you just made... and me, i rarely step in here...
say, another exaple of a three in one, funtion...
the solid apple that makes it all possible...
the nuriting aspect that nurtures the body...
the flavor... that affects the mind, and heart... :)
without the whole, the others are not there, yet they
are all equally apple... (not a hamburger, for example) ;)
:)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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May 30, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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Oh neebee, our special super topo friend.....you are always there to pull it all together with your love and sweet spirit and simple wisdom. Thanks Gal. And yeah, ain't it funnnnnnny how this happens ? I call it a holy coincidence. Joy and Fun to yo Gal this Memorial Weekend. Cheers and Hearts, lynne
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 30, 2010 - 12:41am PT
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hey there ol' lynne... wow, so very happy to see here... you did not leave yet... :)
wow, what a bit of refreshing spiritual ocean spray, so to speak, with a dab of apple in the air... ;) under the ol' sunshine of god's love...
say, well, i best be getting to go now... got lots of stuff to check, on line here, and some mail...
god bless, take care... and the good lord give us a visit
some day... >:D<
:)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 30, 2010 - 01:09am PT
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WB!
Regarding the Trinity...
"Then God said 'Let us make man in Our image; according to Our likeness'..." Genesis 1:26
John 1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness and the darkness did not comprehend it...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
Jesus is the Word.
"I will ask the Father and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth that the world does not receive because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. After a while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will also live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in Me, and I in you. John 14:16-20
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things..." John 14:26
Edit: When i was 8 yrs old, and cried out "Jesus please help me" He(the Helper/Holy Spirit)came into my life.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2010 - 01:19am PT
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"I will ask the Father and He will give you another Helper, ..."
Here Jesus Christ asks the father. So he is son not God.
How can your son be the father of you?
But if your son follows you the father perfectly he is as good as the father.
Thus they are "one in consciousness (Jesus is the Word)" same, but still two different individuals.
This is not semantics either ... but my whole point (individuality).
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 30, 2010 - 01:48am PT
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I can't see anything wrong with what Werner is saying. I also know that our temporal minds have a hard time with concepts like the Trinity and Eternity and Infinity.
One concept I struggled with was the difference between the Supreme, the Ultimate, and the Absolute. They are not merely synonyms.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 30, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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WB!
Let me give you another analogy(BTW excellent analogy's Neebee).
Augustine believed it was possible to look at the human mind and find it in three dimensions(memory, intellect, and will)which could be compared to the Trinity in God.
Just as the three aspects of the mind are different but function as one so Augustine claimed that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were different but function as one.
The Trinity is a mystery, and will not be fully understood until the second coming/return of Christ.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2010 - 02:00am PT
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Christ never left.
Why you keep saying when he comes back.
His words and himself are one and the same.
Thus he never left.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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May 30, 2010 - 02:04am PT
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Yah, Werner, jesus is the Word. All was created by the Word. Then the Word was made flesh and lived with us.
If we could label all the parts and aspects of God and know every part and particle of Him.....we would be equal with God. We would be God because we would know everything.
We will never be God. Our lifetime is not long enough to begin to know and comprehend the entirety of God.
Bottom Line and the Best: God Loves Us. Period. Get to know yo Papa and it's the Greatest.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 30, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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WB_ "Christ never left..."
Jesus was the first to be resurrected from the dead(His physical body).
He rose up and physically sits at the right hand of God. And just like He promised, God the Holy Spirit, is in His believers.
He will return(Jesus)physically, and reign here on earth for one thousand years, and so will His saints(believers). At that time He will resurrect the body's from their graves and unite their corporal bodies with their spirit, just like He already is.
Yes He is here as God the Holy Spirit. He is omnipresent.
Werner, you should be spending more time studying the Bible yourself.
A few more verses:
"For this cause the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He was not only breaking the Sabbath, but calling Himself the Son of God making Himself equal to God." John 5:18
"Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." John 5:58
"And God said to Moses I AM WHO I AM; thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you." Exodus 3:14
"I and the Father are one. The Jews picked up stones to stone Him. I showed you many good works from the Father, for which of them are you stoning Me? The Jews answered Him, For good works we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, because You being a man, make yourself out to be God." John 10:30-32
"Thomas answered and said to Him 'My Lord and my God." 20:28
"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Col 2:9
"But of the Son He says 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom." Hebrews 1:8
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 30, 2010 - 03:07am PT
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Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship!!
"Then Jesus said to him 'Begone, Satan! For it is written, you shall worship the Lord your God an serve Him only." Matthew 4:10
'Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the east, and have come to worship Him." Matthew 2:2
"And behold Jesus met them, and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him." Matthew 28:9
etc., etc.,...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 30, 2010 - 03:29am PT
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Ha ha, lol...to funny!
Looks like a WIDE...
Which reminds me "For WIDE is the way...to destruction"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 30, 2010 - 03:59am PT
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"The Fountain of Youth"
I think it is called 'The Fountain of Ute'!!
Vinny would know!!
V- "Is it possible, the two utes..."
J- "Eh, the two what? Uh, uh, what was that word?"
V- "What word?
J- "Two what?"
V- "What?"
J- "Uh, did you say 'Utes'?
V- "Yea, two utes.
J- "What is a ute?"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 30, 2010 - 10:27am PT
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Sunflower wrote-
"Wouldn't it be bad just to think we live everyday till we die and then there is nothing..."
What, are you trolling, just trying to wind me up?
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sunflower
climber
Tn
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May 30, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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The topic is why do so many people believe in God, maybe instead of wouldn't it be bad to live and die and then there is nothing, I should have said I thnk that way is my opinion, but for trolling I believe my opinion on the topic is what the discussion is about and why do people believe in God, ( serious question). I am not trying to wind anyone, just my opinion on the topic.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 30, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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I hear ya. But it is unfortunate that the Abrahamic religions (or Abrahamic narrative) encourage that attitude or "opinion." Back in the day, in pre-scientific times, fine. But in the 21st century, the age of knowing better, not.
In my field of practice, this attitude has a name. It is called the Abrahamic Indulgence, and many, realizing it is not necessary and causes a great deal of collateral damage in society and the world, have moved beyond it.
Knowing better is doing better.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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HFCS -- "Back in the day"
You weren't even there so how you know.
Oh that's right you read it in a book and on the internet.
You believe everything you hear and read too, thus you can't think for yourself any more than those whom you are arguing against with that line of argument.
Just another hypocrite mouthing off.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 30, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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Hi Pate! No kidding, saw it, and felt I had to defend the modern understanding, what's more, the modern, changing attitude.
Brawny- I just read your past posts. You skxawng! (That's Na'vi.)
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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So if your coat is finally worn out and you're totally and hopelessly attached to it and then throw it away are you dead?
The material body is just the gross material covering of the soul.
When the body is finally finished the soul transmigrates to another appropriate body according to the consciousness it has developed in this life.
The same as one discards an old worn out coat to a new one (these are crude layman examples of course).
Do you think you are the coat?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 30, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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It's a simple matter of coming to grips with monegesis (in different terms, monegetic mortality). Which means one life to live. I have. It's clear that many in Abrahamica (under the Abrahamic Indulgence) don't even try to come to grips with it.
(I know, it's a big word, a strange word, so right away this turns many off, many are turned off right away, too bad.)
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
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Oh yeah a big strange made up word that's totally listed as hypothetical.
In other words a total mental speculation and guessing that has no real foundation.
The same argument you make against the other side.
Hypocrite.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 30, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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. . . we live everyday till we die and then there is nothing . . .
It's the simplest explanation based on the evidence available.
Occam's Razor, try it some time.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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Occam's Razor is "meta-theoretical" is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result"
That's from you're own materialists and scientists whom said that.
All the evidence that God exists is there too.
Because you're blind you need to speculate, guess and grope around in the dark.
Wake up and open your eyes, try it some time ....
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 30, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
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What do you know of logic?
I'd rather have speculations on the probability of things based on all the available evidence, instead of weak analogies, quotes from a primitive mythology, and arrogant pronouncements about Truth based on nothing.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
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Since you're blind, then keep guessing.
It's the indirect method.
All the available knowledge/evidence is not visible to a blind man.
107 blind men in room can not see. Thus they agree the world is dark.
A man that can see comes into the room and tells them there is light.
The blind men say there's no evidence of any light and in the future we will "see".
Meanwhile the blind men invent ideas of what light might be ....
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
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May 30, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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Just don't become infactuated with and stare at the light too long. You'll become blind yourself.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 30, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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That reminds me: group of nuns decide to repaint the inside of their convent. Mother superior says, "Everybody take your habits off so you don't get paint on them."
One of the sisters says, "But mother we'll be naked! It's a sin.
Mother says, "Come on don't worry, there aren't any men for miles."
So they undress and start painting.
Soon they hear a knock on the door and some guy yelling out "Blind man."
The mother superior says, "Don't worry sisters he's blind he can't see anything, relax."
She opens the door and there's a man standing there who looks at the mother and says, "Hey, nice tits, where do you want me to hang the blinds?"
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 30, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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Cross post:
Very relevant here . . . discussions on biogenesis and the possibility of ET. Where is GOD in all of this and what does it mean to believers?
A great conversation for scientists and for believers both on Internet radio. Very interesting topic "Are we alone in the Universe?" . . .
Unbelievable? 17 Apr 2010 - Are we alone in the universe? Paul Davies & John Lennox
http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={CD6D82AC-9A89-41D7-8D9E-F6712260177F}
What does it take for life to get going in our universe? Is there intelligence in the stars or right under our nose? Renowned astrophysicist Paul Davies chats to Oxford Professor of Mathematics John Lennox.
A popular science author, Davies is also the Chair of the SETI post detection task force. His latest book "The Eerie Silence" which marks SETI's 50th anniversary examines the likelihood of the universe producing life elsewhere.
John Lennox is a Christian Mathematician and philosopher. He is the author of "God's Undertaker: has science buried God?" and has debated Richard Dawkins on several occasions.
Davies' work on the fine tuning of the universe for life has been sympathetic to theism. In this programme Lennox challenges Davies to look to design not just in cosmology but in the cell. They also chat about what the discovery of ET would mean for Christian theology.
For Paul Davies see http://cosmos.asu.edu/
For his book "The Eerie Silence" click here
For John Lennox see http://johnlennox.org/
Great listen :-))
Edit:
It is wonderful to hear 3 English gentleman talking, listening, and debating without anger but with respect. It would be nice if ST could do something similiar.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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Sometimes like right now I really worry about you Dr F.
You ask yourself questions and subconsciously answer them to yourself thinking you're talking to someone else in such a way that fits your dream.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 31, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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good one, paul.
my favorite catholic school joke:
it's a girls' school and it's graduation and sister superior is telling the class:
"now remember, girls, for just one hour of pleasure you could be paying for it with a lifetime of sorrow and grief."
and that little girl in the back row raises her hand and asks,
"sister? how do you make it last an hour?"
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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If you can talk to God, so can everyone, and then you have to believe everyone, like Bush, when He said God told him to invade Iraq
and when the catholic priest said God told him to abuse children,
Or you can be rational about it, and say No, I don't talk to God, nor can Bush, nor anyone
Exactly parallel (ridiculous) argument about science:
If a professing scientist can do science, then so can all professing scientists. So, then you have to believe every claim of every professing scientist. Like the goofballs that claimed to have achieved cold fusion. And when (not long ago) basically all scientists believed in the aether. Or phlogiston. Or, now, a 10/26-dimensional universe without the slightest possibility of experimental evidence to support it. Or, you can be rational about it and say, No, professing scientists don't do any science, nor can anyone else.
This is an EXACT parallel of your (ridiculous) argument, "Dr." F. Ready to accept THIS argument?
Think about it some time.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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I'd rather have speculations on the probability of things based on all the available evidence, instead of weak analogies, quotes from a primitive mythology, and arrogant pronouncements about Truth based on nothing.
Correct rewording: "...all the available MATERIALISTIC evidence...."
And there's plenty of arrogance to go around, including "pronouncements about Truth based on nothing," such as the arrogant claims about a "final theory" based on nothing (since the 10/26 model of the universe takes the Planck energy to perform "confirming" experiments).
In the face of the "nothing" they often have to work with, here's some quotes from a couple of semi-famous :-) scientists on their willingness to just BELIEVE whatever seems good to THEM in the utter absence of EVIDENCE.
Paul Dirac: "It is more important to have beauty in one's equations than to have them fit experiment." (Quoted in K.C. Cole, Sympathetic Vibrations: Reflections on Physics as a Way of Life, New York, Bantam, 1985, p. 225.) That's DIRAC, boys and girls, saying the correlation with the evidence is secondary to aesthetic appeal!
Arthur Eddington: "A scientist commonly professes to base his beliefs on observations, not theories.... I have never come across anyone who carries this profession into practice.... Theory has an important share in determining belief." (Quoted in Heinz Pagels, Perfect Symmetry: The Search for the Beginning of Time, New York, Bantam, 1985, p.11.) That's the BIG GUN astronomer, noting that theory often trumps evidence, particularly when the evidence is, in principle, lacking (such as in the case of current "final theory" theories).
Want more quotes? I've got 'em by the dozens, from the big guns of science admitting that the "evidence" is either entirely insignificant to the "progress" of science, or that theory necessarily trumps evidence in scientific beliefs.
And even when scientist do have "something" in the way of observational evidence, it is usually a function of indirect inference rather than DIRECT observation (it is NOT like looking down and noting, "Hey, I have hands.") And those inferences are themselves entirely informed by theory, all the way back to the core physical theories (such as current "theories of everything") that are utterly devoid of observational evidence.
So, don't single religious people out for special condemnation about their "arrogant pronouncements about Truth based on nothing."
And please don't (stupidly) respond along the lines that "at least science works." That is fallacious (and false, by the way) on many levels, not the least of which being that, properly done, religion also "works" in the same sense.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 31, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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And please don't (stupidly) respond along the lines that "at least science works." That is fallacious (and false, by the way) on many levels, not the least of which being that, properly done, religion also "works" in the same sense.
No.
There is no evidence that religion "works" in the sense of its greatest claims to Ultimate Truth or immortality; it does "work" though as an opiate and a cohesive force for tribalism.
Science does "work". But it doesn't or shouldn't make such grand claims; any scientist that claims that science seeks Truth is in error.
No theory is ever 100% confirmed, but as a theory survives attempts at falsification and becomes more strongly supported by evidence* then one should accept what the theory says about the world as being more likely or probable.
* much of that evidence could relate to practical use, or that the science explicitly works.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 31, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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He wrote: "Its not God, trust me."
Why's that? Every post of yours on the subject demands that "God" conform to your our criteria: "He" must exhibit some quantifiable, material qualities you can evaluate. Sure, we can "trust" you to rail against such material definitions, but we already agree with that. But on the issue of "spirit," which doesn't conform to quantifiable criteria, and is perforce immune to material evaluations that such "spirit" has no material or connection to the world of forms, what exactly are you saying that we should trust, other than that the broken-record rant that since "spirit" has no "body," it is "unreal," a belief, voice in your head, an idea, a feeling (not that all this laundry list are all "thing" with a material footprint). If you're going to present yourself as an expert on the topic of spirit - beyond the facile "material" quagmire - you're going to have to up your game beyond rants that "spirit" cannot be "proven" or detected by instruments.
JL
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 31, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Someone tells you that he hears voices telling him to kill people.
Someone tells you that he had a vision of aliens telling him that this world was an illusion created to keep us calm in the aliens' intersteller zoo.
Someone tells you a burning bush spoke to him.
If someone made any of the above statements with no material evidence, then I'm forced to accept that the most likely explanations are mental illness, drug use or a religious pathology of seeing what one wants to see.
For some reason we evolved this capability for a god/spirit delusion. It may have provided our ancestors with many benefits. But it is a function of the brain that is susceptible to suggestion and subjective desires, and can present itself in functional forms that range from mildly spiritual to fanatically religious, and present itself dysfunctionally in mental illness and drug use.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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Someone tells you that he hears voices telling him to kill people.
Son of Sam
Wasn't he your friend .....
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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any scientist that claims that science seeks Truth is in error
That's the primary point I've been trying to make for months on these threads!
And, just like in science, the fact that many people practicing various religions get things wrong does not mean that religion itself is worthless or that all religions are making entirely false claims.
Perhaps we could stop throwing all babies out with all bathwater, and then we could finally get down to some fine-grained, systematic evaluation of particular claims (rather than the endless straw-man fluff).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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If someone made any of the above statements with no material evidence, then I'm forced to accept that the most likely explanations are mental illness, drug use or a religious pathology of seeing what one wants to see.
I've told a few miracle stories of things I have witnessed myself. I assert that I have seen firsthand the "material evidence" for what I claim. But, actually, that's not good enough for some people on this forum. I'm then told that such eyewitness experiences are unreliable and must be repeatable under laboratory conditions in order to be credible.
Fine, but that's a different bar than asking for mere "material evidence." And that's defining even "science" as an ideal, rather than as what's actually practiced. Furthermore, repeatability under laboratory conditions is the antithesis of what a miracle is supposed to be. So, the naysayers are simply defining miracles out of existence. But that definition makes miracles no less real. I have seen with my own eyes. I am as confident in what I have seen (and with just as good of evidence) as I am confident that I have hands.
And that sort of definition invalidates most of our everyday beliefs, by the way. We accept most things that we believe on the basis of FAR less evidence than I have for most of my religious beliefs. I would assert that I have much better "material evidence" behind some of my beliefs than most people have for the actual existence of, say, Afghanistan.
Most people haven't been there and have only the weakest of second-hand stories from second-hand stories from second-hand stories from people who claim to have been there. The fact that some people can point on a map and say, "There it is," is no better evidence than people pointing into some ancient book and saying, "There it is."
Just as you can, in principle, go to Afghanistan for yourself is no different from the fact that you can, in principle experience the Truth for yourself. And the "repeatability" standard is a constantly moving target, even for scientists!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 31, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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The virtue of science is that as a philosophy it seeks to discover the way things are. It does not, like theology, seek as its primary goal the reconciliation of the individual to the grave and constant experiences of existence. Religion fails as it forces the material world on to the Procrustean Bed of its own particular and often peculiar dogma in order to provide that comfort.
Science doesn’t concern itself with the personal experience of existential pain. If the universe is a good place, thing, fine. If it’s a horror show, then so be it.
The goal of every religion on earth is to see every member of its body reconciled, comforted in the face of the pain of annihilation.
Ultimately, science has no concern for your existential comfort; it only wants to know.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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The virtue of science is that as a philosophy it seeks to discover the way things are. It does not, like theology, seek as its primary goal the reconciliation of the individual to the grave and constant experiences of existence.
That's painting with some pretty broad strokes, although it rightly notes that science (the scientific worldview) is a sort of philosophy!
First, the grandiose claims of science are philosophically unfounded. As WandaFuca rightly noted, science is not a TRUTH-seeking mechanism. It is about what seems to work, and "what seems to work" does not equal "what is true."
Second, not all religions are non-truth-seeking and wrapped up in and basely motivated by trying to provide the sort of "reconciliation" to which you refer. My religion, as just one example, is not so motivated; and I care most for seeking the truth, whatever it may be or however distasteful it may be. What I don't do is artificially limit what counts as evidence to include only that which can be discovered by the scientific method. There is much more to the universe than matter and the forces that act upon it; and there is very, very good reason (apart from religion) to think this.
Of course, those reasons are philosophical, rather than scientific. Of course, that very fact makes some here dismiss them. But note the question-begging nature of rejecting evidence because of a particular PHILOSOPHICAL position to define what counts as "evidence." That is itself a philosophical, rather than scientific, decision. So, the position that ALL questions can be answered by scientific evidence is self-defeating.
Not all philosophy is in bed with religion, as some have claimed. In fact, most modern analytic philosophy sees itself as contiguous with science rather than religion. So, it's ironic to me to see some here employing cherry-picked philosophy to reject philosophy itself. The big questions are philosophical ones, rather than scientific ones. Science contributes a certain sort of evidence, but that's not all the evidence there is on these questions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 31, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
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"The goal of every religion on earth is to see every member of its body reconciled..."
You are reconciled at the moment you become part of the "body" of Christ(Church).
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 31, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
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Someone tells you a burning bush spoke to him.
If someone made any of the above statements with no material evidence, then I'm forced to accept that the most likely explanations are mental illness, drug use or a religious pathology of seeing what one wants to see.
For some reason we evolved this capability for a god/spirit delusion. It may have provided our ancestors with many benefits. But it is a function of the brain that is susceptible to suggestion and subjective desires, and can present itself in functional forms that range from mildly spiritual to fanatically religious, and present itself dysfunctionally in mental illness and drug use.
-----
There's an old saying that "God" is found in the spaces between thoughts. When you demand that "God" be a thing, stuff, a thought, a material entity, then you go onto to say that only matter is "real," you've slipped from the vastness between thoughts and are once more in the "stuff," spewing all manner of frivolous and fatuous things about "God" and spiritual "pathologies."
In psychology, there is a thing called "information bias." We filter out whatever does not conform to what we think is the truth (anything "true" or real, must consist of matter). We literally will not consider or be open to contrary information, or else we will alter its value or definition so as not to threaten our preconceived notions or given criteria.
The problem with basing our idea about "God" on everything else we have encountered in the world is that "God" is not based on us, or what we have or have not experienced, nor yet on our evaluating minds. We are based on "God," IME, and so long as we continue to impose the criteria, "God" will in fact remain an idea, a dream, some unprovable thing, a fiction, a belief, a pathology.
JL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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Tripl7, partial quotes taken out of context and distorted do not do the cause of religion any service. Let's raise the bar of discussion and be intellectually honorable.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 31, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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People sure go to lengths to defend their belief in God. It's easy being a non-believer there is nothing to defend.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 31, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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What religion or theological notion is there that doesn't declare if you believe this and you do that everything will be okay?
Certainly all the great religions go even further and say salvation is surely a function of faith and at least an attempt at obedience.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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Donini -- "People sure go to lengths to defend their belief in God."
People sure go to huge lengths to defend their belief in no God.
Nothing new here except a big poker game .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 31, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
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You have a point Werner and these discussions are useless because nobody is going to change their beliefs or lack thereof.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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May 31, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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Let's raise the bar of discussion and be intellectually honorable.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 31, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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madbolter- "partial quotes taken out of context..."
I was replying to a partial quote!!
Lockers! And I am not sure who he is quoting...perhaps you?(just looked and noticed it was Paul)!!
I haven't had time to follow the lengthy nature of the dialogue taking place here today. I just noticed Lockers hi-lighted quote and simply explained that once you get saved, you become part of the body of Christ(Church)! And there is no longer a need to be reconciled!
Paul R. stated that "the goal of every religion on earth is to see its members reconciled..."
Small point perhaps, but just leting everyone know that it is not a goal of the evangelical church...it would be redundant at best!!
I will have more time to follow this tonight...sorry if I disrupted the train of thought!
Edit: OK, OK! It was a rather moot point. We all know that Paul was saying in essence...The goal of every religion is to get everyone reconciled/get its members reconciled!!
Dumb distinction/trivial point on my part...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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What religion or theological notion is there that doesn't declare if you believe this and you do that everything will be okay?
Certainly all the great religions go even further and say salvation is surely a function of faith and at least an attempt at obedience.
Biblical Christianity does have the "okay" clause you referred to, although it also says that most people that THINK they are okay really are not, raising an epistemic uncertainty that is NOT comforting in anything like the sense you suggest! Indeed, we are exhorted to "work our your own salvation with fear and trembling." Doesn't sound (or feel) so comforting to me! In fact, Christianity properly understood is much LESS comforting than any secular or Eastern viewpoint! So, the "okay clause" doesn't have the attraction that you seem to think it does.
People that are in their religion FOR the "comfort" are on dangerous ground, and many/most of them will be found wanting, as they have continued to be fundamentally self-serving wannabes. My point was that my religion is NOT one of comfort-seeking, and that comfort-seeking is in NO way what it is about.
However, what you haven't indicated is why the "okay" clause it a bad in itself. I agree with your tacit claim that most people are in their religion FOR the comfort, truth be damned. But, again, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Even if MOST people are in their religion for all the wrong reasons, and even if they are not so much as attempting intellectual honesty, those facts do not sweepingly invalidate religion.
It's a common mistake in intro to philosophy classes that students take the failure of an argument to indicate the failure of the position argued for. It's a fallacy called appeal to ignorance, and it's a very intuitive fallacy for all of us. However, just because a position is badly argued does not mean that the position is false. Just because most religionists do a disservice to their religion does not mean that their religion is false.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 08:14pm PT
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TripL7, if I misunderstood, I am sorry. I don't think that the "reconciliation" the quote referred to was how you used it. Perhaps I'm mistaken. I'm just concerned that we believers treat what appears to be a genuine discussion thread with due respect.
For example, Biblical-spamming seems inappropriate to me here. In the Favorite Bible Passages thread, sure, the more the merrier. But this thread seems to be populated by most people wanting to actually discuss, and so Bible-spamming is just irritating to me and probably to others.
Do what you will, and I'm not trying to sound like the "Christian cop." It's just that I have some small hope for a reasoned discussion taking place on this thread, and I'd like to see Christians respond in careful and reasoned fashion (for a change). It really saddens me that most of the atheist indictments of most Christians are well-founded. We can do better, and we should.
Edit: cross-post,TripL7. :-)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 31, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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God may be the primary metaphor in human language.
It is an idea engaged in by every culture and every historical period apparently back even to Neanderthal times. It's born out of an inherent human belief or affinity or desire for an existence, an action, a realm beyond the forms of sensibility.
Those that believe do so because of a deeply seated sense of the sublime in the face of a wildly engaging mystery that permeates our being. What are we? Who are we? Why are we? Why must we die?
The remarkable syncretism of all faiths, both east and west, mitigates against the reality of any individual belief system.
But the mystery stands. Our sense of the mystery, our lives, our loves, our hates seem to require the validation of ritual and belief, and our experience of life is so overwhelming that not believing in a “spiritual” realm can seem unimaginable.
To stand beneath the Sierra sky on a clear moonless night and contemplate our being is to confront directly this great mystery.
But to contain this mystery in the rigidity of some dogma simply demeans it, to name it contaminates it.
If to be overwhelmed by the mystery is to be “spiritual”, then I’m guilty.
But God does a poor job of revealing himself except through the syncretic texts of men which are increasingly read as historical realities rather than the metaphors they are.
My argument isn’t against the amorphous and ultimately indefinable notion of the spiritual, it’s against the extrapolation from that that forms the basis of all organized religions.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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May 31, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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...the amorphous and ultimately indefinable notion of the spiritual.... Due to the evolutionary quirk of extreme self-consciousness, we're hard-wired for awe in the face of that which is grander and more powerful than we perceive ourselves to be, and are compelled to try to systematize and codify those ineffible chills that run down our spines. Then, once the initial revelatory experience is neatly categorized and packaged for redistribution, we use the shared belief system to enforce cultural norms and mores, thus boosting the group's unity and chances of survival among competing groups with different ethos derived from similar root experiences.
God, therefore, is a tool.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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May 31, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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The remarkable syncretism of all faiths, both east and west, mitigates against the reality of any individual belief system.
Paul, do you mean the divergence of all faiths? Syncretism is the effort to unify disparate belief systems, but you have seemingly used the term to refer to the disparity itself. I want to be sure that I understand what you intend to say by the above passage.
Also, you refer earlier to the "forms of sensibility," and I find that very intriguing. That phrase is one specifically employed by Kant in a very particular way. Do you mean it in a Kantian sense, or are you just referring to empiricism in general: the epistemological model that all of our knowledge can only be derived from the senses?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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May 31, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
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madbolter!
I can only respond to the title of the thread(OP)with why I believe in my God...who happens to be Jesus Christ. In order to do so in a clear and concise manner, I find it necessary, when appropriate, to quote His very words! To clarify and support my claims, and supply truth/evidence as to His doctrine in defense to what others purport Him saying.
For instance, someone may state that we should be more like Jesus and preach love, and feeding the poor vs. hell. Or perhaps they will claim that Jesus never spoke of hell(like recently was claimed). And I might point out that Jesus spoke out twice as much about hell as He did about heaven, and support this with scripture. Frankly, there are thousands of churches across America that rarely speak of hell, if ever, if that is what makes one feel comfortable.
I don't consider this "spamming".
I believe it to be a careful and reasoned response, and is given with all due respect.
Please keep in mind that "We are not dealing with flesh and blood, but with principalities, powers, dark forces in the heavenly places..."
But your style is certainly welcome...particularly for those with the philosophical bent!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 31, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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"in psychology, there is a thing called 'information bias.' we filter out whatever does not conform to what we think is the truth ... we literally will not consider or be open to contrary information, or else we will alter its value or definition so as not to threaten our preconceived notions or given criteria."
thanks for putting a freshly sharpened sabre in my hand, monsieur. 9/11 jibberish? en garde!
paul--i don't see science and religion as the separate realms you deline. science has become very exciting, and it has everything to do with our religious instincts. ms. leichtfuss was near tears here because of all the good things she thinks those who don't share her point of view are missing. i feel the same way about those who ignore the sciences. there is one proviso, however. the paranormal cannot be ignored. the phenomena are there, and they offer a better door into that existential dilemma than the thousands-of-years-old miraculous. if we would approach paranormal matters scientifically, i think we could easily begin to recast the fantastic compulsions delivered by religion into a much more realistic, much less strained understanding of ourselves.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 31, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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btw, the paranormal has nothing to do with the corpus delicti of government involvement in 9/11. these are hard facts any fan of dragnet or lieutenant colombo could understand.
john, your quaint use of the word "matter" ("anything true or real must consist of matter") puzzles me. at the very least, it's matter and energy, per albert einstein, and a difficult but fascinating elaboration of that in what has followed. science tells us our minds, consciousnesses, and therefore sense of the true and real, derive from a complex interplay of matter and energy. the old aristotelian understanding of physics is long obsolete.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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May 31, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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God Rules!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Prayer Christians, prayer...back on your knees and pray for the lost.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Again, for those that didn't get it the first time...
You want/need scientific proof? Well, you're not going to get it for Hebrews 11:1 is very clear on that, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." - Hebrews 11:3
So what else is there? Circumstantial Evidence. The Bible has your proof. To help you get started, read this paper: http://www.gotquestions.org/why-believe-resurrection.html
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Then again, the very same article says this:
"The secular community’s response to the same evidence has been predictably apathetic in accordance with their steadfast commitment to methodological naturalism. For those unfamiliar with the term, methodological naturalism is the human endeavor of explaining everything in terms of natural causes and natural causes only. If an alleged historical event defies natural explanation (e.g., a miraculous resurrection), secular scholars generally treat it with overwhelming skepticism, regardless of the evidence, no matter how favorable and compelling it may be."
Sound familiar?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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If God rules, as you say, (you define god in that statement) he, she, it has one hell of a lot of explaining to do! Like why do you kill every creature you have ever made? Like why did you create a world in which life must kill other life to simply survive?
With supreme power comes supreme responsibility and don't forget absolute power corrupts absolutely.
But God seems to be nothing more than the supreme vivisectionist!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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First of all Paul, I have to commend you for capitalizing "God" but I then have to wonder why you did this? Second, little "g" god refers to satan so "defining god in that statement" is confusing.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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All this bickering reminds me of when Festus, after hearing Pauls testimony about his conversion from his life as a Pharisee to Christianity:
"Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad." But Paul said, "I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness."
Even my own twenty five year old son said at one point after challenging him on the very same subject, "Man, you're nuts!"
Not a whole lot has changed today eh? And it won't, but prayer has changed many lives so I think its time to do the same.
Glory be to God
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Frodrick,
I kept starting to write arguments to point out the ridiculousness of free-will and punishment if we suppose your god is omniscient.
I wanted to point out how no god is necessary for all the beauty of existence, but if the god of blind devotion that you describe actually exists then it is responsible for eons of ugliness and horrific pain and suffering.
I wanted to write about those topics and others, but I kept stopping and deleting them because I felt silly--as if I were futilely trying to reason with someone on an heroic dose of acid.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Thank God for another day!
Good night.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Wow, things went downhill fast since the last time I checked in on this thread.
Later.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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paul is on the right track with his relative pronoun(s) for god--"he, she, it". i've often thought about that myself.
but we need to take it a step further. come on, all you various and sundry christians, help us out here.
many of you--again, i'm sure there is no consensus--believe that the godhead (don't you love that word? jerry garcia would) is something called a trinity, one god in three persons. wow--it really starts to get confusing here. of course, we have to understand that this is beyond our poor understanding. god clued us in on it through his/her/its/their good auspices--kinda like saying to your dog, "hey fido, E=mc2".
forgive me, friedrich, for not capitalizing anything except the occasional acronym. you'd do well in germany, where they capitalize all nouns. every "thing", they feel, is due this respect. the next question is, however, does this become idolatry? tsk, tsk, it do get tangled. verbs don't need respect. but what of process, largo? could it be that god is a verb?
madbolter: stick around. you can't step into the same river twice.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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the little g refers to satan? maybe at your church of the incestuous minds, fred, but in the big world out there the little-g god has always referred to divinities--pagan, if you will--other than that of the western monotheist tradition.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Too bad Frederick that rigorous, double blind studies have failed to show the efficacy of prayer in influencing the outcome of events.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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God, therefore, is a tool.
cintune science or religion, your point applies to either.
DMT
True.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Okay, let me try this another way.
The point of all religion is that...
YOUR NOT
GONNA DIE.
Not reallllly... you may change forms, go someplace else but you're still gonna be around, and this gives everybody hope and reconciliation to that scary, though brief, passage we will eventually experience.
Religion offers a kind of grand and hopeful exit.
Science offers no such hope, only the possibility of "understanding" what is.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Paul nailed it.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Why do so many people believe in God? I think the simple answer is we all seek answers to the riddles of life. Why am I here, what is my purpose, is this all there is? Many follow philosophical doctrine, humanism, or scientific evidence for explanation. Others choose organized religion in part for structure and a palatable explanation for the mysterious.
There are many learned and well considered posts here that provide evidence we all share this quest. It is an individual journey so I'll share mine. I was not raised in a religious household but I found God in my own heart. I could not hike or climb in the Sierras, dive the oceans, or witness the miracle of birth without thinking, could this all have occurred by mere chance? (I’m a scientist by training and could debate the very unique geological and biological circumstances that allow life as we know it here on earth, but I won’t do that here.)
I sought answers through philosophy but found it wanting. None of it rung true for me. In my moments of silence, of contemplation (prayer if you will), I found answers. To explain to a non-believer what it’s like to be 'saved' or 'born-again' is like trying to explain to a virgin what it’s like to make love. It’s futile and I don't expect non-believers to understand, nor to fully comprehend the life changing experiences that follow.
It is easy to take pot shots at organized religion because they are designed by man, and man is imperfect. The church, temple, etc. has been corrupted for centuries for personal power, riches, and glory. That is the nature of man, so I will not attempt to defend organized religion. Instead, I use my faith to help me become a better person and help mend the errors of my ways (I have far to go).
The presence of God to me is amorphous, without tangible evidence, but it is real. I cannot ignore or deny those feelings, my spiritual fulfillment or the miracles in my life. That’s why they call it faith and it’s the simple answer of why I believe in God.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Science offers no such hope, only the possibility of "understanding" what is.
Well, it's not quite that good. More accurate would be something like:
Science offers the possibility of doing more and more cool stuff with the limited, materialistic understanding of how things seem to work to us at the moment.
History shows that this is really what science does, and philosophy of science demonstrates that this is all that science can do. Hume, the great empiricist, was the first to recognize this fact, and the limits of empiricism are now well-known in quite fine-grained fashion.
But, the fact that science can do even that is in no way insignificant! I'm not denigrating science at all! And I'm happy for the cool stuff!
But let's not make grandiose claims that cannot in principle be substantiated. Doing such a thing would be, well, sort of religious. Wouldn't it?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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climbera5--
i'm impressed by your sincerity.
but then, why do you think the business of god and belief seems to produce such controversy and discord? i'm not talking about the arguments here between believers and atheists, but among believers themselves.
if this god experience were some sort of universal, don't you think it would easily produce accord and agreement among those who experience it?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Exactly. It would be obvious. Plain as the sun in the sky. Which is most likely where the whole idea started anyway.
Hail to the Sun God,
For He is a fun God,
Ra! Ra! Ra!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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in tune, cintune. let's take a break from all the seriousness while largo tries to decide whether to just act superior or roll up his sleeves and do some street fighting.
graces from catholicsville, some years back:
rub-a-dub-dub
thanks for the grub
yay, god!
(geez, fred--didn't capitalize the g-word there--see you in hell)
and for large catholic families:
fodder, son and holy ghost
who eats the fastest gets the most.
someone mentioned "dogma" way early in this thread--i got quite a kick out of that movie. the filmmaker was a sincere catholic, you had to admire him, and rather than welcome the breath of fresh air he offered, he was roundly condemned.
the highlight for me was "buddy jesus". so tired of wan, effeminate jesus, blood streaming from the crown of thorns as he looks heavenward with his "father, forgive them". buddy jesus looks right at you and gives you a smile and a thumbs up. does wonders for his image.
no one has mentioned it here, but i tend to gravitate towards taoism for my eastern religion. in my western religion, i am a confirmed navajo. a seminal book for me was god is red by vine deloria jr., a genuine american indian (native american-first peoples, whatever) intellectual. he wasn't a navajo, but i learned about them from tony hillerman. gold is where you find it.
as i said, i trust beauty, i trust truth. in my experience, god cannot be trusted.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Nothing from nothing leaves nothing! You keep holding onto your nothing!
I'll keep holding onto God!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Please, how can anybody have faith in a God that would construct a universe and world filled with such vicious violence, a world that demands you slaughter other living entities in order to feed the passion of your own desire, your own need for a continued existence.
Watch a child die of small pox and then tell me God is love and beauty. And don't give me that crap about the world as an illusion, it's no illusion to the millions suffering its horrors on a daily basis!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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God created the world perfect,(our) sin messed it up, but Jesus will forgive our sin when we ask Him to! But you blame God for what others do!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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I see, human disobedience created small pox. Well, I have to admit that makes some real sense.
I think I'm beginning to understand. Maybe you're right.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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if all that really bothers you, paul, you have to consider that the vicious violence, the deaths of children, the eating of one another as required by the second law of thermodynamics are only aspects of the universe. there are other aspects, wonderful and beautiful. do they balance the bad ones? i wouldn't look for balance, i'd look for a keyhole to fall through.
no one is going to answer your questions, but you're directing them towards a certain notion of god, perhaps a common notion, but not a viable one. all i can say is rethink the drink. the old notions don't hold up well, but there's enough good in the universe to rebuild it. the good ideas will be in the future, and they could come from you or me or one of the youngsters here trying to figure things out. the ideas of the past are interesting, perhaps worth considering, but they were formulated by people with only a dim understanding of things we know so much more about now, and i'm sure will know even more about in the future.
gobee, you go girl!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Most people with deadly illness still love life, we lament it, and God more so!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Tony Bird, have we met in the real? It would be good to have one on one discourse with Yo.:D
You say jesus is wan and effeminate.....don't think so. Read the history of what he endured.
Then you say you learned from Tony Hillerman about Indians. So you discount the Bible but trust TH and what he writes. ??
You conclude that you "Trust Beauty and Trust Truth". What in essence does that Mean ? Jess Askin' :D
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The universe is what it is and I accept that, I find joy in it, you jump on the back of the tiger and ride like hell until it devours you. There is good and there is bad and the two function in a complementary storm of wonder.
What is problematic is the imposition that the structure of our lives, of this universe, is a function of human disobedience.
The world is the way it is precisely because it is, and as such it remains a mystery. No human being is responsible for "natural evil." What hubris to think that the actions of humanity in some distant garden resulted in the faults of creation.
To think so is to give yourself over to a slave morality that chains you to the guilt of your own perceptions.
If there is God it cannot be just good, otherwise how could its plan be so richly diabolical?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Now, Paul, you're getting into the "problem of evil," which is a deeply philosophical topic.
I will admit that more people have "left the faith" or never had it to begin with over this issue than probably all the other combined. And the adequate philosophical answer is deep and filled with modal logic, etc. People don't want to hear it. So, because they don't want to go through the rigors of seeing an adequate answer, they just punt intellectually and say, "Well, I just can't believe there is such a monster as this supposed 'God.'"
But, I emphasize that this response is a punt. MOST of the things in the universe that need explaining are deep, difficult, and are explained by counterintuitive answers. Witness quantum theory. If you want to understand that answer, be ready for some hard work. Ditto with the problem of evil.
In lieu of that, since I doubt anybody here really wants to tangle with the issue in an intellectually responsible way, and a forum thread would be a painful place to try to have such a discussion, I would start by pointing you to the famous dialogs on the subject between J.L. Mackie and Alvin Plantinga. Don't take the "Cliff's Notes," superficial and pre-digested version. Go to the sources. Some of it is tough going, but it is worth the effort.
Then I would also say that it's really ironic to me how secularists use this "problem" to attack the Christian notion of God. After all, the very values (good, bad, evil, righteous) that are needed to formulate the problem are CHRISTIAN values. And VERY FEW people formulate the problem in a purely, objectively philosophical way. So, in most cases, people are just helping themselves (intuitively) to a whole spectrum of values that they are not entitled to!
The average person does not come to the problem of evil saying: "On the Christian model, there are these particular values, and the Christian God is supposed to be all good, so He shares these particular values, and He wants to protect them; and the Christian God is supposed to be all powerful, so He could eliminate threats to the 'good' values if He wanted to; and the Christian God is supposed to be all knowing, so He would know how to eliminate the 'bad' things in the universe; so, since the Christian God is supposedly all good, all powerful, and all knowing, there should be no 'evil' (bad) in the universe; but there IS 'evil' (bad) in the universe; so no such God can exist: modus tollens; QED."
Sorry, the average person does not come at it that way!
Instead, the average person says something like: "There is a lot of bad happening in the universe, and any decent 'God' should not have all that going on. I just can't believe that there is such a thing as a Christian God while I see so much crap going on." THIS is a very intuitively compelling response to the observations, and it has compelled many.
However....
Formulated in this second way, the "argument" is pure garbage.
First, the secularist has NO basis upon which to talk about anything like objective goods and bads. ALL the secularist can talk about is, subjectively, all the things that HE doesn't like about how the universe works. He says that he can believe that the universe all by itself could work in this crappy way, because, after all, in a purely materialistic universe, he has no reason to think that things should go AT ALL the way he wants. But, somehow, amazingly, the secularist thinks that with the Christian God in the picture, things should be a lot "better" than they are! Somehow, the Christian God should share HIS perspective of how things "ought" to go in the universe.
Problem is that in order to even get the notion of "better" off the ground, the secularist has to appeal to some objective goods and bads, and these he simply has NO basis for! The BEST he can do is talk about how things SEEM "bad" to him, that there are things HE thinks "should" (whatever that can mean) be "better" (whatever that can mean) than they are.
Somehow he thinks that the materialistic universe "should" not care about things from HIS perspective, so he's okay with that. But, amazingly, he thinks that GOD should care about things from HIS perspective! WHAT IN THE WORLD could ground that perspective???
So, somehow the secularist experiences this deep, intuitive angst that the universe "should" be better than it is, and "God" isn't helping, so, doggon it!... there can't be a "God."
But these intuitions know nothing of a God's-eye perspective on things. These intuitions try to bend God's values and priorities to those of the subjective individual. Again, from a secularist's perspective, there is no reason on either model (secular or Christian) to think that there should be ANY correlation in values!
Just because you don't like how things go in the universe is NO basis for thinking that God isn't getting things right! And the deeper you get into what God's values and priorities really are, the more you have to give up your own deep-seated intuitions about how things "should" go in the universe.
If you respond that you hate/disdain/disbelieve in any "God" that doesn't get things right from YOUR point of view, I would respond that this is such an arrogant perspective that it completely closes you off from ANY possibility of seeing things from another, deeper, more accurate perspective. Only if you are willing to consider that there are other values/priorities besides your own that are legitimate can you be ready to seriously consider the problem of evil.
Until then, you are just venting angst.
So, Paul, I don't know what your perspectives are. But the problem of evil is no threat to the Christian world view AT ALL, and Christian philosophers have a more than adequate response to it, if you care to check it out.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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To think so is to give yourself over to a slave morality that chains you to the guilt of your own perceptions.
So, just curious what you are contrasting with the "slave morality." What is your notion of morality? Just "jump on the back of the tiger and ride like hell" through anybody that gets in your way?
If not, why not?
What is your "unchained" morality?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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No human being is responsible for "natural evil."
You have given exactly NO account of the EVIL in "natural evil." You have no right to such a concept. You have no account of such a concept!
There are things that happen in the natural world that YOU (and some others) don't like. That's the most you can say. But that is a FAR CRY from "evil." On your model the phrase "natural evil" is a contradiction in terms!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Human consensus tells us that the death of a child by small pox is a "bad" "evil" "negative" thing.
You can tap dance around that until the cows come home but it remains a sword in the heart of Christian dogma.
Simply because most will simply ask why? Adam's sin? I don't think any reasonable thinker would agree!
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Tony, I think you put your finger on it by saying the 'business' of God seems to produce controversy and discord among believers. Organized religions are created by people, who by agreement, practice their own version of belief. The Bible was written by man 'inspired by God', but still written by man. Language and interpretations from the original Greek and Hebrew text lose translation and meaning; so we are left to our own interpretation. That's the danger and the seed for discord. We each have our own prejudice of what is just, what is right or wrong, or what God is before we begin to learn what the Bible teaches us.
You can be a fundamentalist and take the Bible literally, leaving no room for logic or interpretation. If you don't take the Bible literally, now you've open the door to pick and choose what fits your preferences, thus producing hundreds of versions of Christianity. It’s a pickle for sure, just as there are hundreds of philosophical views of life.
I don't think those who have experienced God (in the Christian sense) in a spiritual manner would disagree with each other as to what they feel or their basic faith. I have met many fellow Christians from various denominations who found their faith (reborn if you will) and their experiences are very similar to my own. That commonality only reinforces in my mind that God is alive and working in those who open their hearts to Him.
Where we get hung up is in the Church itself, be it Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise. Churches tend to impose opinion of what God expects of us, of how we are to live our lives, creates formalities and rituals, etc. etc. We feel compelled to follow those doctrines if only to be a team player and fit in with our fellow parishioners. That's dangerous for obvious reasons and thus the source of discord.
Hope that helps. Clearly we can spend days discussing why and how religion has failed and where man has failed in following God, but it doesn't negate God's message of love for each other.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Paul, I think Madbolter did an excellent job of outlining why we cannot pretend to know the mind of God. To impose or pretend we have a higher sense of morality or purpose is hubris and arrogant at best. But I'll try and answer your concern about original sin as the source of all the world's troubles. Consider the Bible's original audience and timeline.
These were simple people, uneducated, unsophisticated. They told stories (parables) to try and explain God's intent, His vision, and His desires for us. Try not to get caught up in the particulars (no thinking man would agree that God created the universe in six days, but it helps move the story along). The Garden of Eden is what could be; it represents a better place, hope of a better time. Disobedience (self-rule) leads to folly.
For me, God gave us free will, the ability to choose between right and wrong, good and evil; despite all the world's ills. To me it's a test. Do we choose Him or do we choose the world (greed, selfishness, lust, self glory, etc.).
There are many horrible things that happen in this world to the innocent, that's why they call them tragedies. Without tragedies we would have this Garden of Eden already and we would never know pain, suffering, or any ills of evil. That would be a separate reality (love that route). By experiencing these tragedies we know the difference and can make better choices and otherwise appreciate what is going right in our lives.
Life is not fair, never was and never will be. There are no guarantees. Tragedies force us to make better decisions and provide impetus to make the most of our lives, and give back where we can (compassion). I only suggest you look beyond the flaws and focus on the moral of the stories.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Madbolter1,
Wow, I think that's one of the best responses I've seen yet! It's all about me, what I want to have, what I want to do, what I want to be." For someone to say, "It's not about YOU!" is so contradictory to what the world teaches you. I know it was difficult for me having been fed by the world's system for most of my life. But as the Word slowly starts to transform you, you start to experience a whole new way of life. You are absolutely right, there is so much more depth to God's Word than what we can touch but the bottom line is you have to want to know, to reach out and take the free gift.
Glory to God for your reply (note: it's not about Madbolter1 but God who gets the credit!).
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Human consensus tells us that the death of a child by small pox is a "bad" "evil" "negative" thing.
There's no tap-dancing. You are quite sure of the above claim, so you should be instantly able to answer the obvious question: What if the child was young Hitler? THEN is it a bad thing?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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good/evil, try rudolf steiner. there really is no such thing as evil. all motivation is, somehow, for good, if often rather selfish.
lynne, don't think we've met. you must be of protestant persuasion if you put such faith in the bible. i've tried to explain where i'm coming from with all that. and please don't lump "indians" into one category. there are many "indian" cultures, each one is quite different, you'll find your "great spirit" (a white man word, i suspect) if you have to look for it, but i gravitated towards the navajo for particular reasons. the nice thing about tony hillerman is he's a lot more entertaining than any book in your bible. i'm not quite so superstitious as a real navajo, but it's interesting that the original navajo nation was one of the most democratic cultures you'll ever come across.
jesus is portrayed as wan and effeminate in art. after all, he allowed himself to be captured and executed. he didn't really suffer any more--except perhaps in his head--than other victims of the essentially fascist roman empire. the personality that comes across to me from the bible is a rather aloof know-it-all who relies heavily on magic to prove himself. this is difficult to trust. and christians have me rolling on the floor laughing my ass off the way they subscribe to his lovey-dovey pacifism on sundays and then go about business as usual the rest of the week.
beauty and truth are very obvious things to me, essential things, important things. if you don't know what they are, start out small. it helps to be a builder. when you get done building something right--sometimes it can be rather difficult--the word that comes to mind, finally, is "beautiful".
paul: there's the key. the death of a child by smallpox is bad for the child and all those that love it, but good for the germs which multiplied in its body. the god people might say that god loves the kid and the germs both. not a bad explanation, really. the kid might go to heaven, which in a way sustains their version of god. most of them probably don't believe in a heaven for germs, but why not?
climbera5a: i put it in a somewhat wider context. here on supertopo, it's pretty much mainstream protestant/fundamentalist christianity, a certain kind of experience, a certain expectation, a certain consensus among believers but it also seems to aggravate a very contrary atheism. to me, that's the whole problem with this experience of god. it requires one kind of experience, it's generally herded into a certain spin, and those who don't have it are rather roundly damned. look beyond your churches. there are many parallel experiences. if you like this protestant/fundamentalist god, you'll love islam. i'm serious. catholic mysticism, however, is quite a bit different and not generally encouraged, which is one reason why catholicism can be so discouragingly vicarious. largo here went all the way to zen buddhism for his spiritual experience, and then came back home and tried to cast it in mainstream protestant intellectualism. pretty freaking ambitious, perhaps a lot like his climbing. beyond all these things there is yoga, which claims quite profound experience. there are also many nativist traditions which christians look down their noses at. i just try to look at everything. yea, ambitious too, i admit.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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For those new to the thread, it's helpful to remember Madbolter1 is the angry philosopher Christian. ("Angry" all over the place regarding science, science education, and the Story it revealed, as is still revealing, about how the world works and how life works.)
What H. sapiens calls "evil" is readily explainable in mechanistic naturalistic terms. In large part, by the sciences, too. (Predation, for example, and deception, which are natural "pressures" set against all living things) The sciences (including prescriptive sciences) just haven't "gotten around to it," to modeling it yet in its many forms.
Evil, its nature and history as explained by the Abrahamic narrative, in other words, evil explained in terms of (a) the Fall (Original Sin) or (b) from Satan and fallen angels is pure mythology, as bogus as astrology.
But it is amazing (if not lame) to see theist philosophers (or in the West, really Jehovahnist philosophers) use their academic training and fancy sophisticated language to try to reify (make real) this bronze age mythology.
Adapt. Wise counsel is to spend your limited energies and resources adapting to the causality of the universe, not fighting it.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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All morality, like deity, is human invention. Morality is directly related to a necessary social function for the good of the group. Our ability to create a moral structure for our own benefit is one of the distinguishing human traits. In that sense all morality is hubristic and rightly so.
Morality requires neither God nor perfect certainty as a foundation as it is a force already deeply seated in the human condition.
The death of a child is universally seen as something negative. Since our perspective is human, it would seem strange to justify that death as a good because it benefits some bacteria or virus. Surely God is not killing humans in order to feed the bacteria!
Christians will never be able to mitigate the problem of natural evil, what it is or where it comes from; It negates the notion of a personal God caring for his flock and denies either the goodness or the omnipotence of the deity forcing the believer to choose between the two.
So which is it?
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Fructose, I don't think you can casually dismiss evil or categorize it as simply a natural defense mechanism (pressures), such as telling the officer you only had one beer after you shared a six pack with your buddy. True evil is something different. The "Fall" was caused by pride, from which nearly all sin or evil is derived. I'd like to see science attempt to model the various permutations of pride. Perhaps in the process there would be revelation and understanding, even appreciation for the ancient theists.
I also think its humorous that you cite Christian philosophers as using fancy sophisticated language to debate their beliefs. Have you read any of the posts here from those of a humanist bent? Or any philosopher for that matter? Are Christians suppose to dumb down their language to meet your expectations that they are a bunch of dimwits?
If you are so quick to dismiss Christianity as bronze age mythology, then you might as well dismiss all thinking prior to what, 1000 AD? The Greeks, Romans, Islam, Buddha, you name it, all the classics gone. Such arrogance.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Paul, you start off with a profound statement that all morality is a human invention. Is it? You state it's a force deeply seated in the human condition. If so, then how did we invent it if it was already there? The argument also conveniently opens the door for relative moralism. We can therefore set our own squishy standards for what is right or wrong. That, to me, is how we get into trouble and avoid accountability.
As for natural evil see my previous post. To me, pride is the source of evil referred to in the Bible. I'd like to know the difference between natural and un-natural evil in your context.
Your final statement of "a personal God caring for his flock . . " shows you believe God should be 100% caring and protective at all times. Thus no evil, no pain, no suffering, etc. That is not reality nor my expectation of God. He does not represent himself as such in the Bible so I think its disingenuous to attach qualities to Him that were never promised or represented. That is YOUR expectation and I hope you find that in your life.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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wescrist.
God wants us to take pleasure in our achievements. It's a gift from God to be able to work hard and see the tangible results of our efforts. God wants us to enjoy not only our accomplishments, but our work itself. In fact, it is gross ingratitude not to enjoy our work and what we accomplish through it. So what is the difference between this sense of satisfaction that contributes to a healthy self-esteem and the unhealthy pride that God hates?
Unhealthy pride, by definition, is an excessively high opinion of oneself. This results in a person's reputation, needs, desires, dignity, and public image being his or her main interest and concern, regardless of the effect on others. That is the kind of pride that brought down Satan. Even if you consider all this mythology, the message is still clear and true today as it was then.
Also, taking pot shots at Priests or otherwise is a non-starter. Name any one of your heros and we can find a dozen damning faults. People are imperfect, just don't confuse that with the message.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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The death of a child is universally seen as something negative.
No, no, Paul. All your hand waving about morality is not yet answering the question. It's a simple question, and there is no dodging. I won't "move on" in this discussion until we've settled this one point.
You have twice claimed this same thing, but have refused to answer my simple question: Is it a bad/negative/evil if young Hitler dies of smallpox?
Yes or no. Simple question, simple answer.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Really! You can't deny "free will" to the child Hitler can you? Perhaps, given the right environment, the proper religious upbringing he might have become Mother Theresa.
At any rate, what percentage of the millions of children killed by smallpox are evil dictators?
Your God is either not omnipotent or not good, which is it?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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So, you refuse to answer my question, but then want to ask your own. That sort of "dialog" goes nowhere, so I won't play.
The question, phrased a simpler way, is: Is it ALWAYS a bad when a child dies of smallpox?
Another way to phrase the same question, even more simply, is: Is death always bad?
Either answer the simple question, or we'll just be going around and around in circles, always sparring, never really engaging. The only way I can answer your question, which I've already admitted is a worthy one, is for us to get onto the same page about some basic moral definitions and distinctions. But you try to play "slippery," perhaps afraid of what a rigorous investigation will reveal.
Don't be afraid of getting clear about your terms. We're trying to pin down what "bad" means (and it's not to be conflated with "evil" btw). If you're not willing to get clear about even the basic use of terms, then all your talk of human-generated morality is mere fluff.
I'm happy to get into the problem of evil, which is honestly what I'm trying to do. But I won't do it in haphazard, fluffy fashion. So, let's get clear about what "bad" means, which involves teasing out some common intuitions, and we can go from there.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Ultimately it is always "bad" when a child dies of smallpox.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Thank you, Paul.
So, now I'm trying to flesh out the nature of the badness. Is it the smallpox (death by disease) that makes the death bad? Is it the fact that it's a child ("innocent") that makes the death bad? Is it that smallpox is a painful death that makes the death bad? Some combination of the above?
What I'm getting at is that some deaths are merciful (elimination of intolerable and incurable pain, for example). Presumably in that case it would not be the death itself that is the bad, but instead it is the disease/injury causing the pain that is the bad. Or perhaps it is the pain that is the bad.
Or maybe I'm entirely on the wrong track here. Perhaps you're thinking that what makes the death bad is that universally people don't like dying from smallpox; or universally people don't like seeing their children die (for any cause).
I'm trying to cash out the nature of the badness.
Thanks again.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Since most human beings exhibit a will to live, death is bad. Call it what you want, evil, negative, nasty, whatever you want: it's bad.
Death as a release from pain begs the question: what or who caused the pain? If God is omnipotent then God is also, ultimately, the creator of that pain.
So you're saying God gives us the gift of death that we might be released from his infliction of pain...? That's some God.
I have no expectation of God's nature. If there is an omnipotent deity then surely all aspects of life and creation are in his charge, and this God is certainly not the one Christians worship.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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We sure do seem to be circling the Nietzsche drain here.
Not a bad thing.
Christianity: the world's most elaborate and long-lived revenge fantasy.
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sunflower
climber
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there is a god who has prepared us a place in Heaven someday for those who follow is will and it will be everlasting life if we are on his right side when he decides his old earth has had enough, hope we all get to that place instead of Hell when there will be no peace just torment that will last forever never stopping, pick up the bible and read about the rich man and lazarus and you will see that you dont need scientific proof that this is and will happen in the end, i hope everyone will be but i know there is going to be left out of the good and into the bad they will stay, but there is always time its called the now and present to fing God and Jesus.
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sunflower
climber
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mamny men wrote the bible through through Gods words
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sunflower
climber
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read first chapter of job and see how god showed him how faithful he was to him,Satan kept telling god that wathch job if he could take away things that belong to him and God allowed that to happen but one thing satan couldntd do was to kill job he could do anything he wanted but not his life, you can see what satan did and after all he did to job just read what job did, here is the answe for you if you can't read the bible, after all that had happened to him first thing job did was fell on his knees and prayed to God for everything he has, never stopped believing in him because he knew there was a God.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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So you're saying God gives us the gift of death that we might be released from his infliction of pain...? That's some God.
You're making some huge leaps already that I'm not making with you. Don't presume that you know what my personal beliefs are, because you clearly don't. In fact, the latest spree of straw-man posts demonstrates how quick people are to paint "Christians" with the "stupid" brush.
As I've said, I will be the first to admit that many/most Christians are worthy of the indictment of being dogmatic, ignorant, and blind in their beliefs. But, as I've also said, you're not entitled to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because many/most Christians are "stupid" doesn't mean that all are. Just because many/most Christians have beliefs that are intellectually indefensible does not mean that all beliefs that are properly Christian are intellectually indefensible.
If you want to keep jumping to conclusions about what you think I believe, then be my guest, although that will just make the dialog more difficult. My goal it to be systematic and rigorous, to show you that an intellectually defensible answer to the problem of evil can be given. But, as I noted many posts back, the answer is not trivial.
You seem to want to trivialize the question. But that's like turning to a physicist and demanding: "Either the electron is passing through the right hole or the left hole. Tell me which, and don't hand me stupid crap like that it's passing through both!"
Such a demand effectively disallows the physicist to even frame a response. When you trivialize an issue and refuse to listen to the background information and definitions of terms, then you indicate that you really don't care to have a response at all. You indicate that you are comfortably dogmatic. In that case, you must paint yourself with the same "stupid" brush with which you paint "Christians."
Your call, but if you care to hear a developed response, then there is a lot more work to do.
To start, it seems that you think I've just pushed the question back one level, and you are right. As we're both seemingly agreed now, pain seems a greater bad than death, although death seems a pretty bad bad in itself.
To sum up where I think we are now, and correct me if I'm wrong, Death is bad, because we naturally want to live. However, there are fates worse than death, such as intolerable, unrelievable pain. Is this a fair summation?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sunflower, imho you're not helping. If you're going to represent your religion with a shred of credibility, please at least expend the effort to spell most of your words correctly.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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To me, you have two basic dynamics: changlessness, and flux. Matter, and our lives, are ever in flux, becoming ever more complex even as we vault toward the abyss. My deepest sense of things, or the flux, is that what occurs simply is, and has to inherent value per good or bad.
But there's a second aspect, a personal or spiritual and to some extent, emotional aspect, or thread, running through all animate or sentient things, and good and bad, fair and unfair, negative and positive naturally arise when we interface directly with them. And I find the question of "evil" is especially slippery in this regards.
I recall an unique experience I had last year, when my spiritual advisor instructed me to visit the cemetery where virtually all of my relatives are buried, and make graveside amends to all of them, and say what I never got to say, good or bad. I had not been to the graves in ages. I was in for a remarkable three hours.
During the process I sought out the gravesite of the stillborn child my mom had when I was two years old, a boy named Tommy who's death had essentially wounded mom in a way from which she never recovered - and basically tanked her marriage to my father. Tommy was never mentioned or talked about till my mom was dying, and that's all she talked about.
With only the vaguest directions from my sister, and guided by unseen hands, I actually found the grave, almost certainly never visited for many years, possibly since the day Tommy was buried. When I actually sensed into that tiny headstone, I seemed to channel all the collective woe, realizing that somebody's son and my own brother was down there somewhere, and there was something miraculous and yet indescribably painful in that moment. Was he lonely, with his unrequited life. What did it all mean? I had never felt so powerless. It was a crushing moment.
It was easy to think that his death was a horrible thing, and to question how "God" could ever allow such a tragedy. I simply don't know how that works, and don't like the fact that we can suffer at depth like this, that lie can dumptruck us into no-man's land and we just have to muddle through somehow.
But . . . when I sensed a little deeper into things, there was a subtle presence there, buoyed by my own capacity to care and love, and that's when I felt the changeless backdrop that held and contained it all, and us all.
The Zen folks call i the unborn, and if Tommy wasn't the embodiment of that I don't know anything at all. Somehow that unborn backdrop can conform to the very hole in our hearts. I don't know how Tommy gave me that gift, but he did, just as I had been called there to be still and listen to a voice that never spoke.
I knew from that experience that my spiritual advisor was a wise man and that the living and the dead are divided only by our minds, which is foreground, while the unborn changeless background holds us all, throughout time and space, in it's broken hearted embrace.
JL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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How do you know the devil didn't write the bible, and is just fooling you, and trying to lure you in to your doom
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
you don't
Actually, I do. But that's another story, and I want to stay focused on the problem of evil.
Oh, btw, the problem is currently cast as a trichotomy rather than a dichotomy. It's not either God is not all power or He's not all good. In the contemporary literature a third alternative is recognized: He's not all knowing. After all, He might be all powerful and all good, so He could solve the problem and He wants to, but He just doesn't know how.
That's a technical point, and I don't accept any of the elements of the trichotomy. But just to keep us in sync with the current literature, it bears mentioning.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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If this life is all there is well I might think differently but Jesus showed us a perfect eternity and we can be part of it!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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interesting, largo--was hoping you'd take a turn to the personal. all this talk ain't worth nothing in the abstract.
i also believe the heart goes on--i mentioned that before--the song from the titanic, the best way to put it. a couple years getting into it and also becoming acquainted with a genuine ghost hunter. every time the subject comes up, someone comes forward with a personal experience. my quarrel is with religions which try to stand in the way or impose their controlling scenarios. it's public property. listen and learn.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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If you want to really know. If you are honest and are really asking the question,"Does GOD exist? And if so, what is HIS purpose? Is there really evidence I can hang my faith on that proves it once and for all?" Believing does not require you to throw your head away. There is abundant evidence. One does not have to commit intellectual suicide. Watch these films and you will learn a great deal. I did and I already believed.
I guide you to these films based on the very well known books. These are all very excellant and very powerful tesimonies and witnesses. They are not meant just for the Atheist or Agnostic, but also for the Believer who wants to reaffirm or strengthen their faith. I highly recommend them . . .
The Lee Strobel Film Collection:
The Case for a Creator
The Case for Christ
The Case for Faith
http://www.amazon.com/Lee-Strobel-Film-Collection/dp/B002C7ELU4/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1275539425&sr=8-4
You can find them on NetFlix also.
They may also be on YouTube or other . . .
Here you go, here is . . .
A Case for a Creator
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5880769103467938524#
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Butoou
Sport climber
Malibu
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BECAUSE IT HELPS THEM FACE THEIR OWN MORTALITY
FACE THE UNKNOWN
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rrrADAM
climber
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One simple question:
What would convince you that you are wrong about a supernatural God who created everything, who cares about you and answers prayers, and the existance of an afterlife and/or a soul?
If the answer is "nothing", then you you CANNOT be reasoned with, and are thus by definition, unreasonable.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able to prevent evil? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is God able to prevent evil, but not willing to prevent evil? Then he is not omnibenvolent.
Is God both willing to and able to prevent evil?
Then why does evil exist?
This is, of course, the incompatible triad of the problem of evil.
If you say God is not omnipotent, some how doesn't know or can't act, then you have implied the existence of another deity that is omnipotent, and you've entered the realm of the demiurge and the dangerous ground of heresy.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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With regard to the free will argument as a justification for the existence of evil:
If God is omniscient and knows all human actions before hand then how can they (humans) make free choices that might violate what God already knows? To act contrary to God's knowledge would mean he is not omniscient.
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WBraun
climber
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Your kid just wants to stick his finger in the fan to satisfy his curiosity.
You already know what's gonna happen when he does.
But he's curious and really wants to stick his finger in that fan while it's going even though you explained the reasons for not doing something like that.
You love your kid and still want to honor his independent free will.
So you pull the plug and let the fan slow down to a reasonable speed and then tell your kid to stick his finger in the fan.
He does .... ping!!! YOW !!!!!!
Now he learned.
You see all your philosophy and mental speculations are just that.
Pure love transcends above all ......
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WBraun
climber
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There's no my god your god, mental speculator.
There's only GOD ....
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WBraun
climber
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Since you're the imitator god, guess who's the assh'ole ....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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To me, you have two basic dynamics: changlessness, and flux.
Changelessness by its very essence is not dynamic.
Read: TWO dynamics. One is dynamic: flux; the other is NOT: Changlessness, AKA, emptiness, void, et al. Flux is foreground, changelessness is background.
But what is this "background?" Note how the mind wants to immediately turn it into a thing with qualities we can measure and contrast. In fact "space" and "time" and "matter" are all qualities that occur or have duration within this "background."
Einstein said that space and time are united, and even referred to the two with one term: space-time. The closer you got to the speed of light the greater the compression of space-time. Ramp it up close to the speed of light, what seems like a minute in the Starship Enterprise could be 10 years here on earth. Looking out at "things" passing by, they appear squished in the left and right, and normal in the up and down. This is the "space" part of the space time compression. It gets freakier from there.
But the point is - that which is compressed and the quantum field in which the compression occurs, all transpires in the dimensionless eternity of the "background," meaning background and "space-time" are NOT the same.
JL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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What would convince you that you are wrong about a supernatural God who created everything, who cares about you and answers prayers, and the existance of an afterlife and/or a soul?
If the answer is "nothing", then you you CANNOT be reasoned with, and are thus by definition, unreasonable.
What would convince YOU that you are wrong in disbelieving? If the answer is "nothing," then you CANNOT be reasoned with, and you are thus, by definition, unreasonable.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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If God is omniscient and knows all human actions before hand then how can they (humans) make free choices that might violate what God already knows? To act contrary to God's knowledge would mean he is not omniscient.
First of all, many theists bite (what they think is) a tiny bullet on omniscience, saying that God knows everything that CAN be known, which leaves what humans will choose outside His ken.
I think that is a punt, and it's unnecessary.
It's a punt because, taking that tack, you get to keep much less of God's claimed attributes than originally thought; if God can't know what human choices will be, then He also can't know the causal chains that will be formed from those choices. That cuts pretty deeply into any claim of omniscience, and it also threatens His power, as He has to wait impotently by, waiting to see how things will turn out. And then, depending upon how humans choose as He starts to act, He might act inappropriately! So, God goes from in control of His universe to some sort of bumbling goofball always playing catch-up to human freedom. NOT the picture of God portrayed in the Bible, so not acceptable to traditional Judeo/Christians.
It's also unnecessary because the claim that God's foreknowledge impinges on human freedom has never been established. Many people have CLAIMED this conclusion, but there has never been a successful argument demonstrating it. The claim is intuitively appealing, but that is because we project our modes of knowledge onto God. For example, all of our modes of knowing are in time, while God's is presumably outside of time. We cannot imagine such a mode of knowing, but we can approximate it this way.
I can look back at choices people have made. They were certainly free to make those choices when they made them (emphasizing the temporal dimension). The fact that I can know what choice they made, looking BACK at what they chose, certainly has no effect on the fact that they DID freely choose.
We could call my knowledge of their PAST choice CERTAIN, yet my perfect knowledge of the choice they made clearly has no effect upon the choice they made or upon the fact that they freely chose. So, clearly, at least in retrospect, my knowledge does not affect freedom, even when my knowledge of the past event is perfect.
Similarly, if God sees all events "at once," so to speak, then He can enjoy perfect knowledge of the choices that are made throughout all time, without His knowledge having any effect upon those choices or upon the freedom to choose. In short, there has never been a demonstration of exactly how epistemology impinges on freedom. It's widely presumed that it does, but the supposed relation has never been explicated; and it is pretty easy to come up with plausible counter-examples, as I just did. Whatever the supposed relation is between divine knowledge and human freedom, it is opaque and remains unexplained.
So, I simply don't buy that the typical intuition on this point is correct. Thus, I find nothing about God's omniscience to threaten human freedom. So, that approach isn't going to threaten the free-will argument.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Well then, GOD is an as#@&%e.
Wow, so what you want is a world in which you can have absolute freedom to start all sorts of causal chains, including stupid ones and ones that have well-known inherent risks (many/most of which can/will come back to bite you in the butt), but then God is an as#@&%e because He's not constantly performing miracles to keep you from hurting yourself? So, you want absolute freedom, but in such a way that God is perpetually nullifying your causal chains?
Wow... just wow!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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All of these lines of thought and or reasoning, reflection, inspection, experimentation, all run smack dab into this 'background' as you call it and come up with... nothing.
Exactly! Finding God is not something you can reason or experiment your way into. That is not to say that claims about divinity will violate reason (imho, contrary to eastern thinking), which is what we're discussing now: Do the claims of Christianity violate reason?
Obviously, I think they don't.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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What would convince YOU that you are wrong in disbelieving? If the answer is "nothing," then you CANNOT be reasoned with, and you are thus, by definition, unreasonable.
Most or all of the atheist types here would be fine in accepting that there is a God. They are reasonable. They can be reasoned with. They will never say you are wrong "because you are wrong." They will suggest that your arguments that there is a God are very flawed and that nothing you have said so far has any logic or reason. It is simply mythology.
I tell you that there is a Zeus and an Apollo. You tell me I'm wrong because you know that there is one true God. You don't bother to tell me how you know this or why the other guys who really do think there is a Zeus and Apollo are wrong. You just say that you know it. From my point of view, the Zeus and Apollo people present arguments that are equal to yours. Old documents, here-say from parents and people of the community. It's all the same evidence. No better or worse than yours. Since only on of you or them can be right and there is no testable evidence around, I would just have to guess. Given that you believers are in the same situation as me, I must assume that you took a guess too. Of course you allowed your parents and other people around you to sway your guess since you were too young when you decided this stuff to know any better. Still, they are only guessing too and passed on their guess to you.
What wold convince me? What a stupid question. God sitting here telling me about God in a way that I could distinguish from insanity would convince me. Simple and easy. it is surely not NOTHING so I am therefore reasonable.
Dave
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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What wold convince me? What a stupid question. God sitting here telling me about God in a way that I could distinguish from insanity would convince me. Simple and easy.
What a stupid response.
You have no way in principle to distinguish God from insanity, and, in fact, the MANY striking revelations and miracles that people have experienced are utterly dismissed by people just like you.
For example, when I tell the story of a very striking healing I personally saw with my own eyes, a healing in immediate response to prayer, I am told by many on this site that the story is not to be believed, that I am mistaken in some way, or that there IS some naturalistic account for it (despite the fact that none is offered).
So, tell me exactly how this God would make it indubitable to you that the revelation was veridical! What exactly would the experience be like and include that would "convince" you?
Anything you come up with, I will explain to you why you ought not to believe it as "God," and I will give you an alternate account, just as atheists have been doing to "explain away" all supernatural phenomena. So, take a stab at it, and let's see how far you get.
I put it to you that you are not nearly as "open" as you suggest, and that, in fact, you have no principled way to get what you claim you need. Hence, as suggested, unreasonable.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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They are reasonable.
Uhh... sorry, but MOST of the "atheist types" that roam these threads are decidedly unreasonable! The straw-man attacks, drive-by shootings, and flaming are far below the standard of reasonableness!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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I tell you that there is a Zeus and an Apollo. You tell me I'm wrong because you know that there is one true God. You don't bother to tell me how you know this or why the other guys who really do think there is a Zeus and Apollo are wrong. You just say that you know it.
The fact that people have been superstitious and mistaken in all sorts of claims does not indicate that there are no true claims on the subject.
Furthermore, I have made no such statements as you suggest. I have NEVER said: "I just know it." Sorry, but you've got me confused with somebody else.
I think it's pretty clear on these threads that I'm the guy that will go to painful lengths to explain my thinking on these subjects. I'm about as far from a "just know it" sort of person you can get!
If you want to talk about how (easy it is) to distinguish between the Biblical God and the many other false gods people have dreamed up, I'll be happy to get into that discussion. We can start with just the moral implications for divine-command theories of ethics in which polytheism has devastating difficulties that are not shared by monotheism. And the philosophical differences go on and on and on.
To assert that there is no good way to distinguish among various "superstitious" claims about gods and the claims made in the Bible is simply ignorant of the philosophical literature on science, religion, and ethics. That fact that YOU can't see a difference does not mean that striking and defensible differences do not exist.
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rrrADAM
climber
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What would convince YOU that you are wrong in disbelieving? If the answer is "nothing," then you CANNOT be reasoned with, and you are thus, by definition, unreasonable.
Weak!
I have no "reason" to believe it, just like I have no reason to believe in a teapot orbitting the sun between Mars and Jupiter, or in a Dragon in my garage:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
So, for me, I only need a reason... Like this:
JUST ONE EVIDENCE OF THE SUPERNATURAL! Just one!
(Note - Text written by people who didn't even know Jesus, written 2,000 years ago is weaker than eye-witness testimony of televangelists healing people on their show.)
Or... People believe in the power of prayer, that a God will act on their behalf if prayed to. This would easily be statistically detectable, as people prayed for would have better survival rates from diseases, or what ever else is prayed for. Yet, NUMEROUS studies, even funded by the Church have yielded no statistically significant result.
So... There is proof positive that there is no power in prayer, other than making people feel like they have some control over things they really don't, yet people STILL pray, confidently believing that their prayers will be answerred. That is unreasonable. And I'll bet you pray, huh? And believe that God will answer your prayers, huh? How about a lucky horseshoe, or rabbit's foot?
Now... Let's actually test you faith in prayer here:
Since your God is all powerfull, and he answers prayers... If you had a disease like cancer, would you pray for him to cure it, or go to a doctor? I'm sure you would probably do both, but who do you really have faith in that can best cure you? If you had to chose only one, would you choose the oncologist or prayer?
As to who is open mindended and reasonable, and who is not...
(Note... If you are unfamiliar with the Branch Davidians you should read up on it first, here's a great source of information:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Dividian)
Imagine for a moment that David Koresh, whom we all know was killed allong with many of his followers in Waco, TX when his compound burned, reappeared and claimed to be resurrected, which is proof of his claim to be the Messiah.
He was willing to prove this by submitting to DNA tests, to prove that it really was him, and that he had in fact been resurected from the dead.
To move through this quickly, we will state that the entire process of DNA verification has been thorough and transparent. (i.e. Previous DNA samples from him and his family prove a valid standard, DNA confirmation of his burnt corpse, and present DNA, transparent and perfect chain of custody of samples, perfect lab practices to preclude contaminations, and all this has even been tripple verified at 2 other labs independantly, who collected their own samples, etc... Hell, for good measure he even turned the Sparklets water to wine in the labs, simply by touching the bottle on the cooler, as we'll say he has a sense of humor.)
And any other tests asked of him, he performed and passed.
Now... My point is, that I do NOT currently believe in the supernatural, because there is absolutely no 'evidence' of it... But that I would be forced to believe that he has been resurected, despite my 'strong belief' that it would be impossible, as I would now see overwhelming evidence that it is possible, and in fact has happened. I would believe it, and would reconsider my atheism. So I am open minded enough to consider any evidence, and let it lead me where it takes me, despite my present views.
How about the 'faithfull'... Would they believe it ??? Would they believe that something that's prophecised in their 'faith', and that actually comes with overwhelming proof, is true in the form of David Koresh ??? Would they put all their faith in David Koresh, and believe him to be their Messiah ???
If not, then why not ??? It has been prophecised, it even comes with proof--proof that cannot be explained away, or even reasonably doubted. Would it be because it doesn't fit with what they want to happen--their hopes ??? For those who forsake him, David even asks them directly, "What would it take for you to believe I am the Messiah?" Would they believe it if he provided that proof as well ???
Now, given the above, please answer the question I posed in it ???
How about the 'faithfull'... Would they believe it ??? Would they believe that something that's prophecised in their 'faith', and that actually comes with overwhelming proof, is true in the form of David Koresh ??? Would they put all their faith in David Koresh, and believe him to be their Messiah ???
See, I'd have to believe it, but would you ???
Point is, I am more open minded that you 'think you are', as I am guided by the evidence... You are guided by your desire to maintain your faith, and that desire influences what you see as reality.
Now... I've taken the time to reply in detail to you, and answer your question turned back on me, so now your turn:
What would convince you that you are wrong?
See... Confidence in one's beliefs should be directly poroprtional to the evidence that supports it. Unfortunately, with many of the faithful, it is inversely proportional, in that they confidently believe "in" things that have zero evidence, and disbelieve in things that have mountains of evidence. (E.g., Evolution, Big Bang, Religious History vs Myth and Tradition)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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And for the record... as an atheist type and a hard core mental speculator, I would never let my kid stick his hand in a fan by way of teaching him a lesson.
If our purpose on this earth is to learn lessons, those lessons are exquisitely painful to the point of absurdity.
Better perhaps to create a universe in which lessons are unnecessary?
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rrrADAM
climber
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Do the claims of Christianity violate reason?
Yes:
Virgin birth (That belief comes from a mistranlation of the Hebrew into Koine Greek, BTW)
Resurrection
Walking on water
For starters.
Here's a couple questions for you:
1. What were Jesus' last words?
2. Did Jesus ride into town on an ass, OR, an ass AND a foal? (I.e. 2 animals)
3. Did mortal man have to wipe the ass of God, and disciple him, when Jesus was an infant and toddler?
4. Does God have a penis, or even an anus? How about eyes? What does he/she/it use them for?
5. Why do you believe we have an eternal soul? Specifically, why?
And this one takes a bit of thinking:
6. Why is life after death different than life before birth, if the sould is eternal? You do know the definition of 'eternal' right?
Now... Since the faithful are all to often predictable, I predict that you will ignore and/or dismiss every question I've asked you, in this and my previous reply.
Let's see if I'm right.
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rrrADAM
climber
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I think it's pretty clear on these threads that I'm the guy that will go to painful lengths to explain my thinking on these subjects. Prove it... Answer my 1st question:
What would convince you that you are wrong?
See, you and I disbelieve in all the same Gods, past and present, except I disbelieve in one more than you...
Problem is, you cannot think outside your own box of dogma to realize it.
Oh, and atheists (those who do not believe in a God) aren't so bad...
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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[quote}Better perhaps to create a universe in which lessons are unnecessary?[/quote]
Uhh... EXACTLY! Indeed, exactly what Christianity claims was the case.
But, that pesky free will and all....
Downhill from there.
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rrrADAM
climber
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What a stupid response.
You have no way in principle to distinguish God from insanity, and, in fact, the MANY striking revelations and miracles that people have experienced are utterly dismissed by people just like you.
For example, when I tell the story of a very striking healing I personally saw with my own eyes, a healing in immediate response to prayer, I am told by many on this site that the story is not to be believed, that I am mistaken in some way, or that there IS some naturalistic account for it (despite the fact that none is offered).
So, tell me exactly how this God would make it indubitable to you that the revelation was veridical! What exactly would the experience be like and include that would "convince" you?
Anything you come up with, I will explain to you why you ought not to believe it as "God," and I will give you an alternate account, just as atheists have been doing to "explain away" all supernatural phenomena. So, take a stab at it, and let's see how far you get.
I put it to you that you are not nearly as "open" as you suggest, and that, in fact, you have no principled way to get what you claim you need. Hence, as suggested, unreasonable. No mad... It is a strong reply. Direct, and to the point... No waving of the hand. "Evidence of God [and/or the supernatural]", easy enough. Remember now... Back in the day, God loved to throw his weight around, with people living in fish, global floods and arks, burning cities, unicorns, dragons, resurrections, virgin births, etc... Now, nothing.
You believe there is some:
"...just as atheists have been doing to "explain away" all supernatural phenomena..."
Please share with us some of "all the supernatural phenomena" that you believe exists, or even just some examples... This should be entertaining.
And I see that you are being a hipochrite here, in that you like my words, "what would convince you...", but only as it suits you when you can use it against someone else.
But it looks like dispite you saying that you "go through painstaking...", you don't, as you have as yet to answer even attempt to address a single point or quetsion i have raised. NOT ONE!
Ignore... Deny... Wave the hand... Turn it around on them... That's all you've done. Because that's all you can do. You MUST keep your beleief seperate from your skeptical reasonable mind, else there is conflict. You CANNOT as yourself those questions. You don't even apply the same skepticism you would at buying a used car to your belief system.
Perhaps you thought that at least Jesus's last words, or what he "rode into town on" would be low hanging fruit, until you actually looked in the book, and saw that it wasn't gonna be that easy... Oh, don't you just hate contradictions in the scripture?
As I said, if the answer is "nothing" then how can you are unreasonable, so how can you be reasoned with... Which is what many are trying to do yere... Reason with you and your breatheren.
PS... Yea, I know, my spelling and typing, sux. Hey, you can dismiss what I have to say because of that.
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WBraun
climber
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paul roehl -- "Better perhaps to create a universe in which lessons are unnecessary?"
Already being done in your local climbing gyms .......
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Prove it... Answer my 1st question:
What would convince you that you are wrong?
No, you're not off the hook quite that easy. You make much of "no evidence," but that's ridiculous on many levels.
There is tons of evidence in the natural world; the issue is how that evidence is interpreted! That's a whole other discussion, but it's an outlandish claim to say that there is "no evidence" in the natural world.
Second, you have as much evidence of God's existence as you have of the existence of, say, Myanmar. (I assume you haven't been there; if you have, just pick another country that you haven't visited.) What direct evidence do you have of Myanmar's existence? What you have is the witness of others.
Don't appeal to satellites and so forth. The fact that you can point down to an overhead picture and say, "There it is" is meaningless. You have exactly NO reason to think that that spot on an overhead map IS Myanmar.
Furthermore, you hear wildly conflicting accounts of what's actually going on over in Myanmar! Again, interpretation plays a huge role, and in this case you're interpreting merely eye-witness accounts of what the story is.
There are also modern and credible eyewitness accounts of full-on miracles. I've witnessed my sister's severed tongue healed in an instant in answer to prayer. (That's almost as good as "God" sitting down with you to say: "I'm it.") But, of course, you will have all sorts of responses to try to undermine what I saw with my own two eyes. Sorry, that dog won't hunt!
I could go on and on. The fact is that you accept eyewitness accounts about all sorts of things for which you have no direct evidence. And most of what we take to be "real" cannot be replicated in a lab.
So, don't pretend like the burden of proof is on the shoulders of Christians. If anything it is the reverse. Even the most rabid atheist of probably all time, Richard Dawkins, says: "Biology is the study of complex organisms that appear to have been designed for a purpose but that in fact were not." Even Dawkins recognizes that the obvious evidence and millennia of natural intuition point to a designer God. The burden of proof is on the shoulders of those denying the obvious!
Finally, you don't escape your responsibility so easily because you yourself tried to come up with an example of what it would take to convince you. Of course it was pure crap, and when called on it being pure crap you instantly tried to slip out of my more pressing questions on the point. But the FACT remains that you have NO account of what it would take to convince you, and "orbiting teacups" is such a bad analogy that I'm surprised that ANYBODY would attempt to publicly float it!
If you think that in the face of quotes like Dawkins' you can call the OBVIOUS evidences of design akin to some fictional orbiting teacup, then don't expect me or any other reasonable person to call YOU reasonable!
Modern biology is ABOUT accounting for how things CAN work like they do in the absence of a designer, and, contrary to what most biologists try to claim, their interpretation of the evidence is sorely lacking. Regardless of that, the fact remains that the burden of proof is for biologists to give us an error-theory of how our intuitions could be SO screwed up, when even the most rabid among them admits that living organisms APPEAR to be "designed for a purpose."
No, you're just hand waving now.
I, by contrast, can easily answer your challenge:
My particular world view would be devastated to find that there was primitive (or advanced, for that matter) life on some other planet. That's one thing that would be a huge problem for me! Now, I don't mean inferential accounts of little "fossilized vesicles" or some such garbage. I mean actual life. Find me some actual life on another planet, and my view is in serious trouble... possibly even a flat-out falsification!
Another thing that could do it would be for scientists to create actual life in the laboratory. Again, I'm not talking about some amino acids that almost immediately deteriorate because it's impossible to so carefully control the conditions for stability. (Ironically, the atmosphere needed for producing the amino acids in the first place is NOT the atmosphere needed to keep them stable. So, what early life theorists are presently confronted with is a model where the reducing atmosphere needed to produce the amino acids almost instantly changed to an atmosphere like we presently have. No even slightly workable model is in the offing.) So, go from raw chemicals in a test tube to living, replicating cells, and you've got me.
Those are just two examples, and there are many more.
So, ante up. I'm ready to hear what it would take to convince you, and don't punt this time.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Direct, and to the point... No waving of the hand. "Evidence of God [and/or the supernatural]", easy enough.
So, let me be clear. You're really that easy? So, if something like the healing of my sister's tongue happened in front of you, in answer to prayer, that would be enough to convince you?
And, btw, that's exactly the sort of supernatural evidence I'm talking about. Sure, there are lots of crackpot accounts out there (not nearly as magnificent as the claim of cold fusion), but that doesn't mean that there are not many entirely credible accounts of miracles.
And the fact that you can't reproduce miracles in a laboratory setting should be self-evident. Miracles are, by definition, unusual "rips" in the typical causal fabric. If they could be reproduced on command, they would not be miracles. But I still await a naturalistic account of what I saw with my own eyes. A quantum event? Bah!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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I wouldn't change the way the universe is with all its pain and destruction, it is what it is.
It is religion both eastern and western that seeks a tender escape from the pain life offers; this is not the concern of the atheist.
Im just pointing out the absurdity of believing that supernatural powers cursed a world because of the actions of human beings. The Christian God is no less a monster than what is demonstrated in his creation!
If God is, try to know what he is; his name is written in the violence and horror of nature as well its beauty and love. If God is he must be responsible for this universe.
It's impossible for God to be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent?
How can there be free will and omnescience?
It only takes a little mental speculation to understand this.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Wow, such passion here. Unfortunately so much of what is discussed is unknowable so it comes down to belief, faith, or some visceral acceptance of a God. Some would like to believe in God but have difficulty with some of the teachings or precepts of organized religion. Others can’t wrap their head around a God that would allow the level of pain, suffering, injustice, or tragedy that transpires daily. Little will change those opinions because those filters are the foundations upon which we view life.
Some demand full-proof logical explanation or evidence of God’s existence, but many things lack logic; such as the relationships we have with our spouses or mates. Some are hurt deeply from tragedy and feel bitter and injustice (why them?) I have my own version/ explanation for this but before I do I’d like to address the free-will/ God’s omniscience issue.
My personal view is that God does not know what we (humans) will do next. We are his ‘children’ and He created this earth to allow us to grow, develop, and make choices like we do for our own children. He does not control all events; otherwise we are all puppets in his play. I don’t think there is a pre-determined ending for any of us.
His lack of control on the future is found in the story of Noah. He was so disgusted with man that He was willing to hit the reset button but was persuaded by Noah to allow a few believers to survive. Believe the story or not, the point is a truly omniscient God with a plan would have gotten the whole human thing correctly to begin with and not have to start over.
To me this is evidence that we have free will, that we don’t have puppet strings, that we make choices and the future is of our making. That is why tragedies are allowed to occur. Without pain we would not know pleasure. Without suffering we would not know bliss. Without death we would not know life.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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You may have free will but you don't have an omniscient deity... which begs the question who created your God?
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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His wife created Him of course, who else?
The dilemna surrounding Free Will is centuries old. I stole this from the web:
"In the Christian philosophical tradition a central question regarding freedom of the will was this: is virtue within the power of the individual or completely dependent on the power of God? St. Augustine, although he argued that God's foreknowledge of human actions (a consequence of his omniscience) did not cause them, did hold that God's omnipotent providence implied predestination: man was wholly dependent on divine grace.
St. Thomas Aquinas maintained the freedom of man's will in spite of divine omnipotence, holding that God's omnipotence meant he could do all things possible or consistent with his goodness and reason, which did not include the predetermination of human will.
William of Occam affirmed free will but claimed it impossible for any human to comprehend how it is compatible with God's foreknowledge and omniscience, which cannot be distinguished from his role as prime mover and original cause.
Martin Luther and John Calvin both followed Augustine's doctrine of predestination, but later Protestant writers disputed their position. Advocates of free will have usually begun with the overwhelming testimony of common practice and common sense: people do believe they in some way determine their actions, and hold each other accountable for them."
I still think God allows us free will while maintaining the ability to change things at will (such as Noah's Ark). Why does he allow bad things to happen? I go back to contrasts and choices we make as outlined in the previous posts.
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WBraun
climber
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Bad things,
Good things
Are only seen in relation to the material body.
Since you all think you're the body, that's the first defect and mistake.
Just like you think you're a climber or you're a Christian, a Mohammedan, a Catholic, a Hindu, and so on.
You're probably so attached to your Toyota and think your dead after you crashed your truck .....
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rrrADAM
climber
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Second, you have as much evidence of God's existence as you have of the existence of, say, Myanmar. (I assume you haven't been there; if you have, just pick another country that you haven't visited.) What direct evidence do you have of Myanmar's existence? What you have is the witness of others. Nope... See, if I chose to I could go there, and verify it's existance. Same goes for what's going on over there... I could, if I chose, go verify it for myself.
That's how science, and generally reasonable beliefs, work... They are repeatable and transparent.
As I said, confidence inb a believe should be directly proportional to the evidence. Yours isn't even disproportionally proportinal, it is INVERSELY proportional.
You believe with "all your heart", and that is at the expense of "all your head".
There are also modern and credible eyewitness accounts of full-on miracles. I've witnessed my sister's severed tongue healed in an instant in answer to prayer. (That's almost as good as "God" sitting down with you to say: "I'm it.") But, of course, you will have all sorts of responses to try to undermine what I saw with my own two eyes. Sorry, that dog won't hunt! Pure and utter bullsh#t, whether you believe it or not. If that happened, it would be documented in medical journals all over the world, as well as trumpeted by every appologist the world over.
Bull shit!
And most of what we take to be "real" cannot be replicated in a lab. Really? Like what? You know why we trust science? Because it works, dummy. From the plane you fly in, to the computer you're using to spread your drivel, to the antibiotics and vaccines that keep you healthy.
Finally, you don't escape your responsibility so easily because you yourself tried to come up with an example of what it would take to convince you. Of course it was pure crap, and when called on it being pure crap you instantly tried to slip out of my more pressing questions on the point. But the FACT remains that you have NO account of what it would take to convince you, and "orbiting teacups" is such a bad analogy that I'm surprised that ANYBODY would attempt to publicly float it! Nope... It's pretty sound, you just can't address it, so you try to dismiss it... You say my example is impossible, yet you believe just that... That a man was killed and vame back to life... Only difference is, your "proof" is a 2,000 year old text, and in mine, I have your text, AND physical evidence that is repeatable.
And the "Teacup"... That's Russell's Teacup. Do you know who Bertrand Russell is? It's not me that's trying to "float it". (You need to get out of your box more often.)
More importantly, from the above quote:
...and when called on it being pure crap you instantly tried to slip out of my more pressing questions on the point... How could I do this? Are you making this up as you are going along? This was your first reply to me after my example, that you asked for? So HOW could you call me on somehting before I post it? You really do live in your own little world, huh?
Modern biology is ABOUT accounting for how things CAN work... Nope... It's about how things DO work. in fact we understand it enough to make antibiotics and vaccines, AND... See below.
My particular world view would be devastated to find that there was primitive (or advanced, for that matter) life on some other planet. That's one thing that would be a huge problem for me! Now, I don't mean inferential accounts of little "fossilized vesicles" or some such garbage. I mean actual life. Find me some actual life on another planet, and my view is in serious trouble... possibly even a flat-out falsification! Good! I think you are young enough that you will see this in your lifetime, perhaps on Europa.
Another thing that could do it would be for scientists to create actual life in the laboratory. Again, I'm not talking about some amino acids that almost immediately deteriorate because it's impossible to so carefully control the conditions for stability. (Ironically, the atmosphere needed for producing the amino acids in the first place is NOT the atmosphere needed to keep them stable. So, what early life theorists are presently confronted with is a model where the reducing atmosphere needed to produce the amino acids almost instantly changed to an atmosphere like we presently have. No even slightly workable model is in the offing.) So, go from raw chemicals in a test tube to living, replicating cells, and you've got me. You mean like this?
http://www.ted.com/talks/craig_venter_unveils_synthetic_life.html
It meats much of your criteria... This isn't just an amino acid... It is a new species, capable of self replication, created by man. Hey, like I said above, we understand biology as it DOES happen, enough to even exploit it, and now to even create a new species.
Also amino acids need no atmosphere like we have here on Earth at present, as the atmosphere was very differeent here on Earth when life started... In fact, they were even discovered on a comet:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17628-first-amino-acid-on-a-comet-found.html
You need to read up before you stick your foot in your mouth.
So... Given the above... Are you just gonna move the goal post now? There is one new species on this planet, that God did not create... We did.
How 'bout the rest of my questions, and taking a better stab at the one you are trying to dismiss here?
C'mon now... Just quote my questions, and address them point by point, like I am doing for you. It's called "discourse".
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rrrADAM
climber
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So, let me be clear. You're really that easy? So, if something like the healing of my sister's tongue happened in front of you, in answer to prayer, that would be enough to convince you? Yes!
And, btw, that's exactly the sort of supernatural evidence I'm talking about. Sure, there are lots of crackpot accounts out there (not nearly as magnificent as the claim of cold fusion), but that doesn't mean that there are not many entirely credible accounts of miracles. If you believe that, YOU are a DELUDED.
And the fact that you can't reproduce miracles in a laboratory setting should be self-evident. Miracles are, by definition, unusual "rips" in the typical causal fabric. If they could be reproduced on command, they would not be miracles. But I still await a naturalistic account of what I saw with my own eyes. A quantum event? Bah! Why not? YOU produced it "on command", as you prayed and he made it happen right? Perhaps you were a little kid when this happened?
Another simple question... Do you believe the Earth and Universe are older than 10,000 years old?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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It's impossible for God to be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent?
How can there be free will and omnescience?
It only takes a little mental speculation to understand this.
Care to let us in on your "little mental speculation" that seems to have eclipsed people that make a living thinking about such things?
It's easy to SAY that you "understand this," but actually demonstrating it is a whole different ball game. DEMONSTRATE how free will is eliminated by omniscience. Otherwise, you're just talkin, and "speculating," as you say, is all you've got.
Regarding you statements about the horror in the universe, I would wholeheartedly agree with you. However, it's a ridiculous straw-man argument to blame it all on Adam and Eve! Humans have been carefully building causal chains of evil for millennia. If you keep "evil" and "bad" apart, which they properly are, then you've got human responsibility for the evil in this world; and God happily takes responsibility for the "bad," which is little more to us than: "I don't like it." Well, tough.
Paul, I don't see you even trying to really engage with these issues. You want to take the most superficial approach and cling to your comfortable assertions. But your assertions are NOT philosophically sustainable.
Whatever else you want to say about Christians, you have not yet demonstrated the right to claim that we're all ignorant or stupid. So far in this discussion, you seem unwilling to engage at the level it takes to do anything but straw-man the Christian world view. Well, more power to you, but any intellectually sophisticated Christian will find your responses feeble.
Far from being the "sword in the heart of Christianity," as you assert, you have not yet even formulated the problem of evil in a threatening way.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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See, if I chose to I could go there, and verify it's existance. Same goes for what's going on over there... I could, if I chose, go verify it for myself.
Exactly what Christians claim about their first-hand experiences. "Go over there" and experience it. Otherwise, don't complain about the "plane fare" or other hurdles.
I have just as much right to assert to you that Myanmar doesn't exist as you have to assert that God doesn't. Both are accessible to experience in principle.
If you're going to throw a radical skepticism in my face about my first-hand experiences, then I respond in kind. You have no reason to think that your "first hand" experience of Myanmar is veridical. You have no reason to think that even your own inner experiences, such as of your own pains or mental states, are veridical. If we're going to play the skepticism game about first-hand experience, we can all play at that game.
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rrrADAM
climber
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I was once a born again Xian, just as confident as you are now, so you argument that you know somehting I don;t doesn't hold water.
You aren't going to address the numerous items I have raised, are you?
Fair enough... Just remember, Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Pure and utter bullsh#t, whether you believe it or not. If that happened, it would be documented in medical journals all over the world, as well as trumpeted by every appologist the world over.
Bull shit!
So, you are either calling me a bold-faced liar, which is itself BS because I am not, or you simply don't understand the experience.
The healing did not take place in a doctor's office, so of course there's nothing for a doctor to publish. As I noted earlier, miracles are no laboratory events. They are rips in the normal causal fabric. And we DID take my sister to the doctor immediately afterward just to have her checked out. He found a small, round scar in the back of her throat, where the tip of the yucca leaf had punctured it after almost severing her tongue in half. He said it looked to him like an "old puncture wound." When we told him what had just happened, he said that the scar was consistent with the story, and my sister still has the scar back in her throat. Her tongue, however, was completely healed.
Call BS all you want. It happened. I saw it. My whole family saw it. When we returned from the doctor, they were still trying to get all the blood out of the carpet.
Say what you will, but you can't change my mind because I was there. End of story.
If your world view cannot even accept the POSSIBILITY of such events, then you have a pathetically limited world view.
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rrrADAM
climber
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The healing did not take place in a doctor's office...
When we returned from the doctor... Yea, that's not a contradiction.
Yes, I am calling you a bold faced liar (or a TROLL), simply because I cannot believe that someone can be so deluded, and because of your own words.
So... If I told you that Odin came to me on his flying 8 legged warhorse, while I was on 3rd Pillar of Dana Mountain, and told me that there was no such thing as Jesus being the son of God, since his son is named Thor, would you believe me? Or would you call me a bold faced liar?
If your world view cannot even accept the POSSIBILITY of such events, then you have a pathetically limited world view. You got me there... My world view is based in reality, thus it is limited to reality. No fantasy here. You, however, believe in "magic".
You really should stop...
You're embarrassing yourself and him.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Fairytales, nothing more.
You all suffer from the same delusion: If there is ever error, then every "similar" person must also be in error.
Comparing me to Mormons is a huge laugh, and I do.
Comparing a life-flight rescue with what I saw is pathetic and reveals your determination to believe your own lies.
I saw, with my own eyes, my sister's tongue severed virtually in half. I personally dragged her back off of the yucca leaf she was skewered on. I personally helped her into the house, as she spilled massive amounts of blood all over the carpet. And I personally saw the horrible wound with my own eyes. I also personally saw the tongue perfectly whole minutes later.
No fairytale. Plain and simple. Lie to YOURSELF any way you want to in order to dismiss something that would be troubling to your limited and pitiful world view. But I saw what I saw.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Yea, that's not a contradiction.
Yes, I am calling you a bold faced liar (or a TROLL), simply because I cannot believe that someone can be so deluded, and because of your own words.
Uhhh... strange one... let me try to make this very...
very....
very....
simple for you.
My sister's tongue was healed at my grandmother's house, in her bathroom, with the family gathered around. After that we went to the doctor to have her checked out, because she had lost a LOT of blood.
Now I see for myself the sort of "looking for contradictions" that seems to find so many of them in the Bible. You are determined to believe a lie, but there is a truth staring you flat in the face.
You can call me a liar if you want. If that's what it takes for you to maintain your world view, then I say you are pathetic and not even approaching intellectual honesty. How dare you ever refer to ANY Christian as stupid or ignorant? YOU intentionally choose ignorance rather than grapple with the truth.
For shame!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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My world view is based in reality, thus it is limited to reality.
Your world view is based on lies, as you are now lying to yourself in order to escape the facts.
Think about this. You don't know me at all. You have no reason to call me a liar. What you could have done instead is to say to yourself, "If there is the slightest possibility of this being the case, I should really check it out. I'll email this guy and get to know him a bit. Maybe there's more to this story than should be instantly dismissed. After all, he CLAIMS to be an eyewitness to something amazing. Let's see if there's anything to it."
But, no, you call truth "fantasy" because you have a DEEP bias.
Honestly, I am sorry for you. I'm sure you feel the same way about me. The difference is that I know what I saw, while you actually KNOW nothing about it at all.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Actually, your attempt to paint me into a contradiction was so lame that you should be embarrassed. ANYBODY with a shred of reason could look at the last half-dozen posts and clearly see that I was not contradicting myself in anything LIKE the way you cast it.
Your determination to build false cases for yourself is really tragic, and you're doing it in public.
At least be intellectually honest and fair in your discussions.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Here's one issue:
"If God is omniscient and therefore knows beforehand as an eternal truth each choice (action) that each human will decide upon. If this is the case, then humans cannot "freely" choose (act) otherwise than the way in which God knows they will. (And if the do act contrary to God's knowledge, then God cannot be omniscient.) If God knows humans' sins before they commit them, and they must occur according to God's knowledge, then how can humans avoid those sins, and how can humans be said to have free will."
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oh, oh.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So I guess there's no chance that in all the excitement you saw a lot of blood (even tiny mouth wounds bleed like crazy) and imagined the whole "half-severed" thing? I mean, that would be the most likely explanation. Got a picture, or do we just have to take your word for it? Adrenaline plus an irrational belief system equals affirmation of said belief system, happens all the time. And how old were you? Your compatriot in faith 777 had a similar traumatic life-changing event at an early age, seems to be a pattern for the Jesus intoxicated.
But go ahead and believe whatever you want, dude. Just stop with the condescending defensiveness, because no one cares. People who make their living thinking about these kinds of things are also known as charlatans, and worse.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Wes, I like how you and some others ask straight forward questions and the same with yo comments.
I have a question for any and all.....why is it so important how old the earth is. I've read the Bible a ton and it's not really an issue at all. Jesus never talks about it. Who cares, really ? Jesus said that the whole of everything is summed up in these two things.
1) Love God
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.....and obtw....everyone is yo neighbor. :D That's It.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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So, if there isn't flinstones reality, we're not automatically going to hell? It's okay that things happened at different times?
Yabba-dabba-DO!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Here's another one:
"If God has complete foreknowledge of everything that will happen, and is also omnipotent, then He must have organized with His power all things to happen the way in which He has foreknowledge of them happening. If this is the case then how can it be maintained that humans have free will?"
Well...?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i wish you youngsters would lay off the senseless bickering.
i wonder if lynne is gobee's mommy.
climbera5: you are up against an age-old christian dilemma--attempting to reason out something which is essentially a mystical experience. my advice: don't even try. saint augie, thomas the q, neither of them, by thinking, increased their stature one jot. jesus told them they wouldn't, and they should have listened to him. i love the legend about augustine, walking along the beach, encountering what proved to be an angel trying to pour the ocean, bucket by bucket, into the hole he had dug in the sand. a zazen angel, i'm, sure.
"if i really wanted to get rich, i'd found a religion."--l. ron hubbard to a convention of fellow science fiction writers in the early 50s. the remark would haunt him all his life.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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with his anecdote about his forgotten, stillborn brother, i think largo did a good job of outlining what is naturally ours as human beings. his use of the word "background" perhaps echoes, whether intentionally or not, the astrophysical discovery of detectable "background" radiation--everywhere--supposedly left over from the big bang. i don't mean to confuse things, but it's a good metaphor, as long as we keep it metaphorical.
so, we have this "background" connection to our loved ones, to each other, to all of usually struggling, sometimes triumphant, life. in a way, it offers a connection, not a real cheerful one for most tastes, but a real and natural one. the dead are with us. i know this too from personal experience. all is not lost, snuffed out, extinct. i like to use the word "adumbrate"--it casts a shadow forward to us. in a way, it's a kind of peanut gallery. whatever the situation there, it does seem to pay some attention to life here in the present.
if you look at nonchristian cultures, you'll see plenty of it. what westerners call "chinese ancestor worship" is just an awareness and reverence for this adumbrating peanut gallery. the ancient romans had a terrific word for departed souls. they were "shades". the traditions of mesoamerica deliver their ancient awareness of these things--influenced certainly by their frightening preoccupation with human sacrifice--in the emotionally rich day of the dead. if largo's family had set a place for tommy every year, perhaps things would have been more comforting.
as i said, i think this is public property, but like the forest service, they're telling us we have to buy an adventure pass. that comes with christianity, where we forget our natural heritage, beat our breasts in guilt over a mythic original sin, and then enter the trumped-up scenario of sugary heaven versus the eternal pain of hell, either/or, nothing inbetween. not just that kinda lonely, kinda sad, but in its way kinda comforting awareness of a common mystery, but a compulsory, and IMO, sick and insane substitute. i think we should forget the substitute and pay more attention to that real background. i think we might find ourselves making a bit more progress on it than we have in 2000 years of letting george (jesus) do it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Cheap shot Tony B. ...... what do you gain by that ? Doesn't even relate to what I said. Jess askin'. It's about Love Dude. It's the only thing that will last......even beyond the rock.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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don't think it's that cheap, lynne. you don't seem to have even the idlest curiosity over anything that can't be found in the bible, and the words beauty and truth were mysteries to you, although you claim to love words.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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this thread has been going in such a strange direction...
madbolter1 is in a quest for truth, and since truth is essentially a philosophical concept he has settled in on a course of thought along which he would establish what the truth is...
...I think, somewhat unfortunately, no philosophical approach is unique, that is, there are many ways to define truth, and to establish the validity of those definitions. It is the problem with philosophy, that it is essentially unprovable. In the end we have a set of logical propositions whose axioms we choose to suit our proofs.
The construction of the concept of God, take the christian construct, essentially makes it impossible for us to objectively experience God. The nature of miracles, as madbolter1 described above, are transient and depend on the experiences of the witness to testify as to their truth. There are few miracles that would pass a rigorous examination on the basis of anything physical. But part of the very nature of the construction of a miracle is that they are unique acts of God, not reproducible, and probably not documentable, except through witness.
Similarly, God has a number of very interesting attributes that prevent us from directly sensing him. Instead, we have all learned that our experience of God is subjective, something that we learn to identify within ourselves. Various institutions of christian religious practice allow varying degrees of freedom in interpreting those personal experiences, the Catholic church deals with this very differently then, say the Congregationalists, etc...
The Catholic church has probably thought about these issues the longest, I am intrigued by there stance on evolution, that the "body" is subject to natural laws, but that there is something "ineffible" introduced in the body at the moment of conception that makes us "human."
Finally, we all learn that we cannot understand God, ultimately.
In the end we are left with an idea... and a God that can only be experienced subjectively. God can no more be put under a microscope for examination than to be logically dissected. In the end we have faith and belief.
It seems absurd beyond imagination that madbolter1 or anyone else could make a serious philosophical argument regarding the existence of God. The OP title is not about a philosophical argument because that is not "why so many people believe in God."
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Tony Bird, How in the ...... (yo fill in the blank) would you know what I think Dude ? Have we ever had a discussion, shared ideas and thoughts ?
As to your beauty and truth comment. Go back and read your post. It was Vague writing. lynnie knows a bit about beauty, truth, life, death, love, peace, joy, patience, people, the beauties of this planet, the foibles of the humanoide, the spectacular feeling of being alive and climbing.....I rest my case :D
Edit: beautifully penned Ed Hartouni.
I do have a bonafide miracle I'll share later. Then yo all can figure it out and tell me why it ain't ....:D
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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A friend to God is a friend of mine!
GoBee
Hey Lynne!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Hey, go-B
and thanks for the Hey. It calmed me abit. Peace, Joy and Love to ya....lynnie
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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don't know you from eve, lynne--all i know is what you post here. i assume it has something to do with your thoughts. i see your "son" is giving you warm fuzzies. if it's about love, it's also about joining the gang.
ed, i stopped having fascination with catholic constructs long ago. they're based on the writings of thomas aquinas, the "angelic doctor" who took the strained intellectualizations of aristotle and applied them to christian doctrine. thus we have the "ineffable" soul which makes us oh so different from war-waging, segue-driving chimpanzees. we have the communion wafer "transsubstantiated" into jesus at the moment of consecration. aristotle spoke of substance and accidents, his ancient understanding of physics, yes, sophisticated for the time, but ignorant of modern science. for me, aristotle was an evolutionary dead-end, a homo robustus of philosophy, and aquinas followed him into extinction. but hey, if it works for you ...
modern evolution--the thread everyone seems to have deserted to come over here--cooks up a different, realistic, threatening to some, but not hopeless view of what we are. you don't have the aristotelian metaphysics hovering over it all. i think it's a helluva lot more interesting.
btw, lynne, i am not hostile to reports of miracles. i know of a few myself, but they don't have the aura of magical power you get in biblical-style "omnipotence". rather, they have to do with powers intrinsic in us as the thinking animals we are, with a possible collective aspect, as carl jung suggested. i cast them in the realm of the natural but paranormal. open that door and there's lots to see, and, in my opinion, all within the legitimate realm of science. yes, i tend to be blunt. put your bible down for awhile and read other books.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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in that same vein, we can look at the "background" john long mentioned and consider reports of what you might call jacob's ladder, the commerce between heaven and earth which the bible said would take place. i'm sure lots of people have claims about this. reverend sung myung moon spoke with jesus on a mountain top. effing good for him.
what i know from my little experiences through a psychic--and perhaps some psychic experiences of my own--is that it's more like what john long described. i think jacob's ladder is wishful thinking. but i think we've also gotten a little unexpected hope in a different direction, and that's with science. people who are really passionate about this stuff should study science. i wish i had had the opportunity to study it more.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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It seems absurd beyond imagination that madbolter1 or anyone else could make a serious philosophical argument regarding the existence of God. The OP title is not about a philosophical argument because that is not "why so many people believe in God."
In fact, this entire thread has been fundamentally philosophical, which is the nature of such questions. If the OP wasn't raising a philosophical question, then what was it?
And, "absurd" means something like irrational or contradictory or at least wildly paradoxical, so I don't see how anybody's efforts to make a serious philosophical argument about the existence of God could be any of the above.
For example, Anselm about 1000 years ago generated the ontological argument. That argument has been called many things; "absurd" is not among them. Kant thought he had undermined the argument by showing that "existence" is not a "greater making" property because "exists" is not a predicate. However, what we have learned about predicate logic since Kant shows that we can rigorously formulate Anselm's argument in modern predicate logic terms, saying what Anselm was trying to say, without employing "exists" in the predicate role (it instead acts as a quantifier, which is entirely legitimate, even on Kant's model). So, Kant seems to not have had the last word on this one. So this is one "philosophical argument" that is certainly not "absurd" by any stretch.
Furthermore, arguments from the objectivity of morality, among others, are taken very seriously among intellectuals. Even the radical empiricist/skeptic/atheist, J.L. Mackie, acknowledged that a properly formulated divine command theory of ethics could answer his skeptical challenge, although he doubted that such an argument would ever be formulated.
In the ensuing decades, and shortly before Mackie's death, a number of top-flight philosophers, including past APA president, Philip Quinn, have formulated book-length, extremely rigorous divine command theories of objective ethics that have largely laid that debate to rest. As Quinn summarized shortly before his death: "Theists have been getting the better of the arguments." Remember that Quinn was president of the APA, which indicates the respect accorded him; so this was no "crackpot" thinker awash in a sea of theist thinkers. Philosophers are, by and large, not theists. Yet Quinn's work was widely acknowledged as seminal and compelling.
Just because you are not familiar with decades (even millenia) of work on the subject of God's existence does not mean that argumentative attempts are "absurd."
And nobody is going for a "proof" here anyway. The best we can hope for on either side of the debate is a cogent, cumulative-case argument.
The OP suggested that it's not rational to believe in something that can't be "proved," and it is to that notion that I have responded. The typical atheist responses on this thread indicate what is widely known: atheists today take up a primary approach of trying to make Christianity seem stupid, blind, mindless, and so forth. I have agreed that often Christians are all of the above. But that's the human condition, not the Christian condition, as has been evidenced by many on this thread.
My goal has been, and continues to be, to argue that Christianity need not be ignorant, blind, foolish, stupid, etc., that instead Christianity can offer an intellectually respectable world view, taking all of the evidence into account.
I am opposed to all forms of dogmatism, and it saddens me that Christians exhibit so much of it! Conversely, there has been plenty of that to go around on this thread from the atheist side of the debate as well.
So, at this point I would only note that people should be very careful that they are not painting themselves with the "stupid" brush in their claims about the stupidity of Christianity.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Paul, all of your attempts with the problem of evil indicate that you didn't read or didn't understand what I wrote about time/tense. I clearly showed that backward-looking knowledge does not impinge on free will, and you have not answered that point at all. Furthermore, all of your attempts are fundamentally tensed, which begs the question. If God is timeless, then His "foreknowledge" is something like tenseless knowledge, and there is no reason to think that such knowledge impinges on free will. As long as you continue to employ tense in your attempts, you are just spinning your wheels.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Finally, for the night, when I say virtually severed in half, I mean exactly what I say. My sister was leaning forward as we walked her into the house, and the sides of her tongue were thin strips of meat, with the middle cleaved through. The yucca leaf had penetrated all the way through her tongue and pierced the back of her throat.
And the idea that even small mouth wounds bleed a lot doesn't even touch what "a lot" means. We took my sister to the doctor after the healing because she had lost a LOT of blood. This was no minor scratch that I magnified in my mind to be something more. I saw her tongue, and even the doctor saw the small scar in the back of her throat.
Whatever other account you want to try to float about the incident, what's not going to fly is that this was some minor wound.
And, finally, even if it was much more minor than I am claiming, the fact remains that her mouth was pouring blood from some sort of wound. Yet, after prayer there was no wound whatsoever.
Honestly, I don't expect to convince anybody with the story. That is not my point or purpose. Somebody Else's story should not convince YOU. But what it SHOULD do is have you thinking that IF the thing came down as I say, it would offer some pretty compelling evidence to ME of a supernatural interaction.
If you can't even grant that much, then, as I pointed out much earlier, that fact just indicates that there is NO encounter with the supernatural that could, in principle, threaten your cozy atheism. So, your world view is unfalsifiable in principle. And if that's the case, then you have nothing to say to indict Christians for being "blindly dogmatic" and other such things.
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rrrADAM
climber
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I have a question for any and all.....why is it so important how old the earth is. I've read the Bible a ton and it's not really an issue at all. Jesus never talks about it. Who cares, really ? Simple...
1. Because 10's of millions of Xians in the US believe it is less than 10,000 years old, and believe the Bible indirectly says as much. (re: Usher) This is EASILY a falsifiable belief, yet they are so deluded and in denial that they will not see it.
2. Same goes for evolution, as the same group denies evolution, because of their warped world view... And note that while they are in the fringe minority* of Xians to believe this, it's still 10's of millions in the US, which is more than significant.
(*The vast majority of Xians worldwide are Cathies, or other denominations, who accept Evolution, Big Bang, and an old Earth and Universe as undeniable.)
3. This leads to things like wanting to undermine science in schools, with faith based psuedoscience, and even a recent 11 to 2 vote by the Texas School Board to remove any and all reference to the age of the universe and the Earth from Middle and High School text books, to leave enough room for it to be 6,000 years old.
Or, just 2 weeks ago, Texas (once again) voted to revamp their social studies cariculum, including history, to lesson the significance of and/or replace people like Thomas Jefferson with John Calvin. They want to rewrite history, to "focus on the fact that America was founded on Christian principals"... It wasn't!
End result... We are ranked 18 out of 20 industialized nations as far as education goes. 18 !!! And it's only getting worse, so how is our next generation going to compete acedemically, or even in a skilled (math, science) job market?
So, you ask: "What's the big deal?"
Do you think academically handicapping MILLIONS of kids is a big deal? Look at "mad", for example... His thinking process is so screwed up he cannot even be reasoned with, and he believes in magic. There is a vocal group who is successfully lobbying to teach this crap to our kids in school. Or, isn't there a school teacher on this site who believes that there is an ark on the far side of the moon, that broguht aliens here who had a hand in the populating of this planet, and that he even confidently ties it to Biblical text?
Not to hard to imagine...
People put their faith in a book they think is accurate... I'll ask you:
1. What were the last words of Jesus?
2. Did Jesus ride into town on 1 or 2 animals?
Or, perhaps you'd prefer hearing it from one of the founders of the Xian Right here in America, who has since come to his senses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IaAsBjoaj8
Look... My wife is a Cathie, and I was even there when my kids were Christined (Baptized). I'm not "anti" Jesus / God, I am "anti STUPID", and if someone wants to be stupid fine, treat it like masturbation... Something they love to do, in the privacy of their home, and are often too embarrassed to talk about it in public. Don't wank all over kids in school.
As a Moderate, YOU should speak out against these religious nut jobs, just as we expect moderate Muslims to speak out against the fringe minority of extremist ones. They need to be marginalized and recognized as the nuts they are.
Lastly... There is nothing 'philosophical' about what I have stated regarding science, observation, or reality... Or what I've asked about the same. No "woo" here.
As Feynman said:
"Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds."
People want to invoke philosophy, when it suits them, when they have their backs against the wall, and can't (won't) answer something that is inconvenient.
As Bertrand Russell said:
"Science is what you know. Philosophy is what you don't know."
The FACT that people like 'mad' cannot answer such simple questions I have asked shows just how absurd his beliefs are. He has to ignore and deny... He can't even go there... All he, and his ilk, can do is speak "woo".
Example... He writes above:
And nobody is going for a "proof" here anyway. The best we can hope for on either side of the debate is a cogent, cumulative-case argument. Yet he doesn't allow anything to accumulate in the scale opposite his... He controls what he puts in the scales, adds weight to things that confirm his belief, yet lessons the weight of, or in this thread, refuses to even put things that compete with his view in the scales... He won't even look at it or consider it, much less weigh it. So, how can he even come to any type of objective decision? Seriously?
Morton's Demon is strong in him.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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this thread is great fun. i never thought i'd get around to playing the devil's advocate FOR the existence of god, but here goes.
the ontological argument has always held an appeal to me because of feelings and nothing else. ever have the feeling overtake you--existence, wow! i mean, things exist. it could have been that nothing would have existed, but that is not the case.
sound dumb? maybe so, but it's basically a raw feeling. i'm not sure st. anselm nails it down either, but i think perhaps it's what inspired him.
i've had such feelings from a pretty young age. i got a kick out of the posting of a bunch of babies labeled "atheists". technically not true. a-beliefsystemists would be a better description. but the feelings about the remarkableness of existence impressed me shortly after those baby days, and to tell the truth, they were more powerful and more frequent then.
another good argument for the existence of god might be the universal desire for god, which seems to be a product of evolution. e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n. read that, all you bible thumpers out there. evolution as an argument FOR the existence of god, but AGAINST a literal interpretation of that hodgepodge book, your bible.
so how does that work? remarkable, amazing human life, the strain of evolution that gave us mozart's g-minor symphony and einstein's E=mc2, has roots and resonance in nature, and not just among primates. if you think otherwise, you just haven't looked at contemporary evolutionary science very closely. we are products of a very narrow set of astrochemical circumstances, perhaps "one to a galaxy," but it is what it is, and that's the best information we have to date. if you like the idea of soul, see it in nature, because it's there. there is nothing being "infused" into us, "the image and likeness of god" as the catholic mantra goes. god "picked an australopithecine" to start infusing?
to me, god has become an open question. but the desire for god tends to indicate that perhaps it would make sense to consider that there is a god. the desire is pretty widespread and it goes pretty far back.
an atheist is someone who has slammed the door on the open question. i hate to say so, but such people seem to lose something in the process. they have white knuckles on closed fists, exactly the same hue as that of fistfighting believers.
madbolt: the case of your sister's tongue has the ring of truth to it. so does the mexican miracle of guadalupe, which the catholic church refuses to recognize, although it's happy to take contributions from all the believing mexicans it brought into its fold.
your conclusion is that "god" healed that tongue. a paranormal scientist would suspect that the power came from those who loved her and responded to the emergency with powers they mustered ad hoc, powers most of us don't know we have. prayer doesn't work in all times, all places, all emergencies. if god is your explanation, it becomes a fickle, favorites-playing god, just the sort of thing to make atheists out of fair-minded people.
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rrrADAM
climber
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the ontological argument has always held an appeal to me because of feelings and nothing else. Like I said, for many, they believe with "all their heart" at the expense of "all their head".
A mother can be sitting in court, seeing her son wearing an orange jumpsuit on trial for murder... She can see all the same evidence that the jury sees: his gun, motive, lets say even video of him killing the guy, yet she believes "with all her heart" that her son is incapable of murder, and thus inoccent. And she can confidently believe this until the day she dies.
Doesn't make it so.
"In situations that matter, mythologies are immensely powerful things, and sometimes we humans go to enormous lengths to see the world as we think it should be, even when the evidence says we are mistaken."
~Robert Laughlin
When people are CONVINCED in their hearts that their everlasting soul is at stake, their mind doesn't stand a chance.
we are products of a very narrow set of astrochemical circumstances, perhaps "one to a galaxy," but it is what it is, and that's the best information we have to date. And if evolution was rewound a couple billion years and set in motion again, we would be here. US being the result, right now (as we're still evolving), was just as random as which atom might decay in a sample of radioisotope at any given moment.
To believe otherwise appeases our "feelings", but it disagrees with what we know about evolution.
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rrrADAM
climber
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Nor do your arguments. As always, D, you are correct when you say this. But I just can't stop fighting windmills.
"Those that have convictions that are not arrived at by reason can not be unconvinced by reason."
~Unknown
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Just because you are not familiar with decades (even millenia) of work on the subject of God's existence does not mean that argumentative attempts are "absurd."
And nobody is going for a "proof" here anyway. The best we can hope for on either side of the debate is a cogent, cumulative-case argument.
The absurdity that I refer to is the fact that after more than 2000 years some of the best minds of humanity have really nothing more to provide than a set of rather arcane logical arguments based on tortured definitions which are, by and large, irrelevant to the faithful. I doubt that most believers in the Christian construction of God require the "foundational" underpinnings provided by ancient and modern philosophical discourse and study. For them there is a "ring of truth" to the parables and the lessons as reported in their Bible. And they have learned to seek acceptance not though reason and logic, but through belief and spiritual inspiration.
There is not a debate going on, rather a set of polemical arguments regarding the possibility to make, as you put it, a "cumulative-case argument." State the "resolution" of the debate you think you are engaged in, this is not usually phrased as a question. And if the "audience" for the debate are the STForum lurkers, then at some point we would have a vote as to "who won," not likely to happen...
...rather this is a statement of position from the participants, a detailed exposition of their points-of-view. It is unlikely that any of the participants will change their mind. Would you?
My position in this is clear, in the matter of God, formal philosophy is as useless to coming to grips with the construction as is Physics, both disciplines require the application of rational argument. The modern concept of God avoids, by construction, the possibility of rational argument, precisely because of the failure of philosophy and science to make statements regarding God that are considered relevant by those who believe.
Physics has long ago moved beyond the need to invoke God. Philosophy would be better off it did the same.
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WBraun
climber
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"... that after more than 2000 years some of the best minds of humanity ..."
The best minds of humanity?
You have not yet even seen nor understood who the real best minds in humanity are.
The best minds of humanity have a disciplic succession that goes back billions of years.
The Brahma Madhva Gaudiya Sampradaya
The original knowledge to split the atom came from them .....
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WBraun
climber
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The rant master Dr. F speaks again about something he knows absolutely nothing about.
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WBraun
climber
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Two thirds of the entire cosmic creation know the truth. The other third is the material creation.
And you Dr. F. who is one grain of sand in that entire cosmic creation which includes infinite living entity's speaks always with Superiority here.
You're and insect with no knowledge.
Become a human being first ....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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I have to correct myself. Last time I asked why is it so important to know the age of the earth etc. Ed Hartouni gave me a very good answer. So I know scientifically it is important.
I guess what I don't understand is why this needs to become a divisive topic between "Christians" and "Non Christians". Even scientists disagree with one another on certain topics, but respect (usually) one anothers opinions.
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rrrADAM
climber
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I guess what I don't understand is why this needs to become a divisive topic between "Christians" and "Non Christians". Read my post regarding it's VERY REAL negative effects on education.
Not to mention funding for science here in the US.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Confidence presents, too often, the illusion of knowledge.
Everyone should look in the mirror and say, I may very well be wrong.
In the face of sublime mystery, religious apology or explanation inevitably decays into solipsism;
science does its best to avoid that inevitability by theorizing with the expectation of its own error.
Solipsism as in:
"This body is the Bodhi-tree,
The mind a mirror bright.
Take care to wipe them always clean.
Lest dust on them alight."
Which is answered by:
"There never was a Bodhi-tree
Nor any mirror bright.
Since nothing at the root exists,
On what should what dust alight?"
Of course, I could very well be wrong.
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WBraun
climber
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paul roehl
Every word we hear has a meaning behind it.
As soon as we hear the word “water,” there is a substance water behind the word.
But saying the material word "water" will never quench ones thirst for the man dying in the desert ......
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WBraun
climber
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There's a bunch of guys just in Fresno alone named Jesus who are Landscape and maintenance guys who use water for their jobs.
You have to use the word "Jesus Christ" to make your argument worthy.
Ho man ....
Now the word "Christ" is not like the material word, water.
It's actually transcendental and non different from it's source .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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...if Jesus is there in the desert with water, I'll call him anything he likes for a sip if I'm in need...
and I don't care if he were a gardener in Fresno (or anywhere else for that matter).
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FinnMaCoul
Trad climber
Green Mountains, Vermont
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This torturous thread reminds me of an experience I had when I was attending university in Australia some twenty plus years ago. I had stumbled into a circle of friends who largely hailed from various parts of the South Pacific.
Many of them were older than me and had been sent to the university on behalf of their various governments to receive further training for their jobs. It was a tranformative experience for me as a young man. Their outlook on living was very different from my experience and while diverse, depending upon where they were from, they were, for the most part, a pretty laid back group of people. And a ton of fun to hang with. They introduced me to kava kava and many a weekend night a big group of us would get together and have a kava celebration. These guys knew how to laugh and enjoy life.
I had been taking a philosphy class one semester and the professor had strongly encouraged his students to take advantage of a guest lecturer who was some big wig professor from the states, Princeton I think. I planned to attend one of his lectures, titled; "If God exists then how can evil exist".
One of my friends was an older gentleman from Fiji. Aca was the son of his tribe's chief and in line to inherit the post. He was also the tribe's storyteller and the government had sent him to study literature.
Aca heard me talking about this lecture and thought it might be interesting and tagged along. Turns out it was this horrifyingly torturous and dry dissection of the argument that only a philosophy professor could manage. Truly a dispassionate and methodical lecture that bored me to tears.
I'm trying like hell just to keep my eyes open. I look at Aca and his mouth is hanging open and he's got this dumbfounded look on his face. We snuck out early. Aca's reaction was one of complete and utter disbelief. That anybody could THINK like that. His approach to life was just SO relaxed and so matter of fact. Life is about friends and family and living well and being happy.
To be honest I don't remember what his religious beliefs were. A lot of the guys from the South Pacific were some kind of christian due to the early missionary work there. But it wasn't the notion of good or evil or God or no God that threw Aca for a loop... it was the question of why anybody would take that kind of time and truly elaborate effort to try to put logic to something that is clearly beyond any logic, whether you believe it or not.
I completely agreed.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, finn... what a very nice and interesting post... thanks for the share... say, i hope you still get to say to those friends, off and on... some friends are so special that they stay with us through life...
yet, in this case, due to local etc, it can be hard... but thankfulness in just haveing the memory of such, is a treasure...
god bless... thanks for the calm share of simple
love and friendship...
:)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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the heart is a blood pump, rrradam. feelings are in the head, not the heart, although it's often the perception of the head that powerful feelings are in the heart.
intuition is a proven entity. it has been behind many a breakthrough in science. "using your head" often involves intuition. sometimes we know things before we can prove them.
the big thing in the evolution debate these days is convergence. your statement about rewinding it comes close, but it's not a done deal. the convergent emergence of intelligence--an indication that there may be a god, though certainly not a proof.
ah, braun, those indic names. all you have to do is spell one right and who can argue?
i agree, weschrist, two consecutive, tops. if i have violated that, feel free to ignore me after two.
btw, we're up to 700-some posts on this baby. no fair referring to what you might have said 300 posts ago. reiterate and encapsulate if it's important.
i like your points, wes. we need a future here on planet earth. the christian myth tends to put our lives here on hold with all its to-do about the next one. the importance of what we do, say and think become secondary to its message. it easily becomes escapist.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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All I can say is jesus is, really, my best friend. He's never let me down. I've written my story before so I won't re write, but when I was @23 I would have pro been dead in a gutter, but for his intervention in my life.
Through a series of what I call "holy coincidences" he saved lynnie and I have never been the same.
One miracle I still can hardly comprehend. I was a 3 1/2 pack a day cigarette smoker. My husband hated it but I could not stop. I was addicted from the first cig I smoked. Then I met jesus, and told all my friends how fantastic he is. One of my friends said he could not believe anything I said cause if jesus was real he would help me quit smoking.
Well, I loved this friend whose life was also totally screwed up. So I went to my little church and they prayed for me after the service. I woke up the next morning and never smoked again. It's been @ 35 years......
Dr. F, when he comes again you'll recognize him....I won't even have to introduce you. :D
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F
I asked Jesus the gardener in Fresno how to water the lawn and he said hook the garden hose up and start watering the lawn.
That's just my sarcastic ass at bat line drive into your face sitting in the out field. You couldn't catch the fuking ball to begin with anyways as I round the plate to home.
And to top it off you put your words into other peoples mouths by your stupid statement quoted below.
"if you ask those questions to your Jesus, he will not be able to answer them, right"
You better learn how catch a ball before you even start to try to play.
You're a terrible atheist. Horrible.
Try and become a smarter atheist a least .....
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Well peeps, this has been interesting but as with all previous posts I've participated in that debate the existence of God, what we end up with is an elaborate pissing contest. I doubt if anyone will leave here with life changing revelations, but perhaps there will be some seeds planted that will cause us to reconsider our position and explore alternative positions. That is growth, from which we develop understanding and tolerance.
A couple of observations: There are an overwhelming number of misconceptions posted here surrounding Christianity and I can see why Madbolter feels compelled to answer or defend them all. It is frustrating to read the many factual errors or myths surrounding Christians and not be able to respond. It’s also insulting to paint all Christians with the same brush and expect us moderates to defend fringe thinking. I’m against stupid also and I would encourage some of you to actually READ the bible before you argue against it. You might actually learn something. You won’t be brain washed, trust me, but some of your friends will look at you weird so be prepared.
Unfortunately some here lack the spiritual or emotional maturity to carry on civil discourse about a subject central to many people’s lives. I suggest keeping your vile to yourself, don’t make it personal because once you do, you’ve lost your argument and all credibility. Be respectful because at the end of any debate, you may be the one that was wrong.
(Paul, you asked questions yesterday about the paradox between free will and omniscience. This brings up a debate as old as religion itself surrounding determinism and predetermination. I think you knew that already and the web is chock full of opinions, both for and against. It’s worth the read but I still believe in Free Will, but I won’t pretend to know the mind of God, his methods, his ways, his timing or agenda. That would be very presumptuous. It may seem like a cop-out answer but I’m at peace with it, just as you are at peace with grabbing the tiger’s tail.)
I wish you all well, I just bought a new harness for my four year old and we need to go out and develop his footwork.
Cheers!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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finn--i have an antidote for that anecdote.
i heard elaine pagels speak a couple years ago--another princeton scholar, but full of liveliness and ideas and so engaging to her audience.
pagels is a student of early christian literature--please don't call it new testament, 'cause she wrote the book on the gnostic gospels. she has had her share of personal tragedy, and she's very open about her feelings. i suppose you'd say she came back to belief from agnosticism--but she still manages to keep rigorous scholarship in its place and bases her observations on that. she's in demand on both sides of the theist/atheist aisle, and, from a fella's point of view, she's living proof that a blonde can have the best brains in the thinktank and still keep one heck of a figure into her 60s. the professor who went to the lecture with me remarked simply, "i could listen to her all day."
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Hey Dr. F, old friend......I mean that cause you are. One of Dan's bitd friends. (and mine too) You don't have to say "poor lynnie" or worry about hurting my feelings. I'm good :D
Now if you got on ST and said, " Did you see the awful outfit lynne wore to the Sacherer Memorial and what's with her hair.....or the tacos she made were horrible." Well that could hurt my feelings. Cause you see like Carly Simon said, "You're so vain." Workin' on it, but it's a tough one especially as you get a bit older.....
Oh, I've said this before too. I've studied and tried different religions and for a while I didn't even believe there was a God and a personal one at that. Then I met my best friend, and that was that. Peace all and Cheers.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Unfortunately some here lack the spiritual or emotional maturity to carry on civil discourse about a subject central to many people’s lives. I suggest keeping your vile to yourself, don’t make it personal because once you do, you’ve lost your argument and all credibility. Be respectful because at the end of any debate, you may be the one that was wrong.
and similarly for the Christians out there who feel that it is their responsibility to remind us non-Christians that they believe there is a price to pay for our choices... we know that, best to keep your concern to yourselves.
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F -- "Am I the only one that takes a scientific viewpoint on this one"
No you don't. You lie to your own self.
The word "scientific" originally comes from Latin which means "producing knowledge"
It doesn't distinguish between spiritual or material.
You've taken the word and interpreted it to fit your own agenda and bias including limiting the actual word "scientific".
Catch the ball dude .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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well Dr F, I think you should try to take a scientific view of what the concept of faith, religion, etc, are and not dismiss the ideas out of hand.
From my viewpoint as a scientist, these beliefs are compelling because they connect in some deep way to how our consciousness works, which after all is a behavior program that evolved over a very long time, parts of which were appropriated to do other things as the behavioral package changed.
Scientists know that human perception is a very unreliable and limited in reporting precisely and accurately on natural phenomena. A lot of that has to do with the patchwork of sensory input, and sensory processing that has to be done...
...part of that processing deals with the consciousness, the sentience which seems to be rare among other animals, or if it exists, has no outlet, like language, to express itself (that statement may be extremely limited).
The point I'm getting at is that thoughts can animate action, so the belief in religious ideas have a material affect independent of the realization of those thoughts. There doesn't have to be an actual God for us to become "Christian soldiers," there only has to be a shared belief.
In the end, the religious ideas are products of the mind, they are powerful ideas that reconcile a number of difficult to understand concepts related to the human experience, actually the "life" experience. And though these thoughts may not be "real" by scientific standards (e.g. science fiction is not real, but they are certainly thoughts based on some logical speculation) the thoughts are actionable.
These thoughts explore the way we think, the way we are conscious and aware. The computer may be completely understandable from a material standpoint, the program running on the machine need not produce ideas that are reality.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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lynne--my mom believed in jesus all her life and smoked for most of it as well. she quit smoking at age 60 when she had to have the veins stripped in her legs. i guess it hit too close to home at that point. she died of emphysema and CHF at age 86, having been on oxygen for several years, a great mom in many ways, but it's not a recommended way to die. when you smoke that long, no matter if you quit, the damage is done. if your lungs and veins are returned to pristine pre-smoking condition, now that would be a miracle worth an eyebrow raise. somehow, it's easier to put a tongue back together shortly after it got sliced. "god" isn't that omnipotent. if you study miracles, you'll find that we only get certain kinds.
if jesus is your best friend, that's great, and i wish you both well. he isn't mine, nor about to become one soon, and i kinda gave him his chance. look at the experience of others. it seems to be rather selective. i suspect he may play favorites.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Now I hear ya Tony Bird. Ya, I'd like to hear your story about giving him a chance. Maybe our paths will cross one day.
When my husband Dan died two years ago......well, I never dreamed he would. God had never really said no to me before. Life was full of good stuff and hard challenges, but never an ultimate. If you get my drift. So when I prayed for Dan to get well I never dreamed he would die. He did die. I slept nearly every night in ICU for over a month on two card table chairs with a trash can inbetween to fill the empty space so I wouldn't slip off the chair.....waiting for the miracle that never came. Finally one day my best friend said, "lynne, it's time to tell them to pull the plug." Even now it makes me cry.
I've had some major issues with God during my life time. That was the most difficult. I wish there was a way for a human to go into the life and brain of another. I know that sounds weird, but it would be the only way you could see how my life is good and ok now, even better than good. I miss Dan like heck, but God has eased the pain, even given me joy and peace and a whole new life path. God is God and I can't understand what or why things happen, but I know one thing.....in my lifetime he has never left me or forsaken me. He is always there. I can trust him even when I cannot trust myself.
I may never climb a big wall, but I have climbed lifes big walls.......and in the really tough pitches jesus has taken the sharp end for me.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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gotta be careful here. most of the kids reading these posts don't want to hear nursing home stories. once you start talking about the diseases, they go, "ewwwwwwwwww" and i can't say i blame them.
um, lynne, really. we all die. you've got this "up front" relationship with your god, and you expect people around you not to die? "never dreamed he would"? what were you thinking? in any given couple, it's one or the other that goes first.
so you pray like hell about it, it happens anyway, and you don't like it, but you're eventually reconciled to god's "will", which means your prayers weren't "answered", better luck next time. seems like a lot of emotional gymnastics to me. we're all saddened by death, and there's nothing wrong with such gymnastics when it happens, but we're talking about religious philosophy here.
step back a minute. it's a child's relationship with a parent. most human-god relationship is couched in those terms. jesus's rhetoric is couched in those rather patronizing terms. the good shepherd is another one. we need a jesus who's a good cowboy and knows how to ride herd, not a good shepherd who lets things go to hell and then finally puts his own life on the line. if he's doing the tough leads for you, maybe you're not really a climber. i don't consider it a climb unless i've led it. and it doesn't seem like jesus is the sort of guy who deals with us as an equal.
i'm a grown-up. i've gotten there through the school of hard knocks. i don't need a patronizing relationship, thank you. it's a lot bigger existence than what i was first clued about, and the best thing for those with a good mind is to get into it as much as they can. that's what life is about. i'm not even saying you're wrong about these things--they work for you, and i'm sure you've paid dues of your own. but lynne, they don't work for everybody. and i see a real restlessness among those who can't accept that. and i suspect it's because they have to keep proving it all to themselves, time and again.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dr. F, where did I say science didn't know?
science doesn't know the details of thought and consciousness, I'm not saying science won't know... someday, but probably not to the point that a thought could be determined, the exact thought... but who knows.
My point may be the same as yours, and may even have been posted in many threads before... are you listening and thinking or are you just responding reflexively. It might be your style, but it is not a good way to communicate the ideas of science. Think about being a teacher rather than a firebrand. Science doesn't need martyrs, don't set yourself up to be one.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed said: "In the end, the religious ideas are products of the mind, they are powerful ideas that reconcile a number of difficult to understand concepts related to the human experience, actually the "life" experience."
Many religious ideas are products of the mind, as you say, but probably just as many are interpretations or evaluations of spiritual experiences people have had or heard about which in and of themselves (the experiences) are not thoughts.
My sense is here you are trying to cast religious ideas as the fruit or product of the evolved brain, another way of positing material reductionism insofar that the evolved brain is viewed as somehow producing, or giving biological/material birth to said religious thoughts.
But spiritual experiences are quite another affair. To get anywhere with this at all you have to develop some sense of nothingness, void or emptiness. Recall the old Zen insight that the "mind" is not the content but is in it's most basic nature, entirely empty. That's not to say that "mind" does not contain thoughts, sensations and feelings, memories, imaginings, and so forth. It's just that through various observer based practices to recognize the difference between content and void, that while entirely interconnected and interdependent, they are in one sense, different.
In physics, the vacuum or void (mind) is filled with countless virtual particles rapidly bursting into and out of existence (thoughts, feelings, etc.) like an invisible fireworks display. We don't say that void and the particles are the same. Some might say that the void "sources" the particles, or material, which arises spontaneously from the potential in nothingness, just as thoughts arise from the infinite potential of Mind. There might even be those out there who say that the particles source the void, meaning that space and nothingness are the consequence of the spontaneous arising of particles from the vacuum. Here we have big bang theory in a mind of reverse mode, where something (virtual particles) create nothing (the void) in which they arise. The problem is the these are one-sided ways of looking at causation
But for my money, the goofiest way to look at causation is by way of material reductionism. In the mania for the evaluating mind to latch onto "something," we abandon the nothingness and vacuum of the Quantum model as something totally irrelevant, and say, not that void (mind) is filled with countless virtual particles rapidly bursting into and out of existence (thoughts, feelings, etc.), but that material and things (thoughts, feelings, horseshoes, beliefs in God, faith, religious doctrine, et al) somehow give rise to themselves.
Our attempts to deal with the void "neat" is fraught with the same challenges man has always struggled with per the idea of nothing or zero - without which no-thing works or arises. Take the following quote:
"Records show that the ancient Greeks seemed unsure about the status of zero as a number. They asked themselves, "How can nothing be something?" leading to philosophical and, by the Medieval period, religious arguments about the nature and existence of zero and the vacuum.
And here we are, still talking about it.
JL
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Physics has long ago moved beyond the need to invoke God. Philosophy would be better off it did the same.
Ed, I agree with most of what you said about the discussion on this thread, and you are right that "convincing" is not likely to be going on. However, it's amazing how people's positions change over the years, and I've seen people I argued vociferously with "come around" years later and tell me that their arguments with me gave them food for thought that ultimately changed their mind.
And my mind is also open to change, as I have expressed. So, I don't think that things are a futile as you indicate.
Regarding what you said, quoted above, about that I, of course, heartily disagree.
First, philosophy largely abandoned appeal to "God" in its investigations many, many decades ago. However, "God" is being rediscovered by more and more philosophers, as it is increasingly found that something like "God" just makes for a better case in subjects as wide-ranging as philosophy of language, philosophy of mind, and ethics.
Second, physicists in general have a very narrow view of what matters. Their technical wizardry tends to wow the uninitiated and lead the "physical perspective" to seem more comprehensive than it really is. But the account a physicist can give of everything from legitimate government, to justice, to mind, to ethics, and so on is wholly inadequate; and this fact is being more and more widely recognized by the intellectual community (contrary to HFCS's fervent hopes and assertions. hehe).
Anyway, most here are amazingly dogmatic; and they are unlikely to get anything at all from these discussions. Oh well.... I'll probably have less and less interest in spending the time on this thread going forward.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Just like they are deluded by 1000 other false beliefs.
Your beliefs in your own statements among them.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Either I don't agree with Largo or I do, I can't decide...
reality is quite different from what we perceive
however, spiritual experiences necessarily involve our perception, there's just no way around that, the experience itself is contained within a mind, someone experiences it, and then tries to explain that experience
spiritualism, mysticism, religion all have at their core the exploration of the human experience in the universe. It's all about being human. It's all about what happens within our consciousness, our subconciousness, our spiritual being, our soul... it is about the human experience.
Science isn't about the human experience, it's methodology and techniques move beyond the subjective experience of the universe and try to explore it on an objective level. Science isn't concerned about the human experience in the universe, human experience is irrelevant to the workings of the universe.
While this can be criticized as a "limited view" actually it is more expansive than the universe of human experience, though most of us humans would like an explanation of that experience, perhaps more than anything else.
One gets the sense of the strangeness of the universe by studying physics because so much of what we understand is beyond the direct experience of human sense and perception. Perhaps one can get themselves into a similarly strange state by practicing meditation, but to my mind that is just playing with our programming, sort of getting into the code and mucking around with it... perhaps similarly taking psychoactive drugs where the body chemistry is altered and what we perceives is different from what we sense if only for a short period of time.
I don't agree that physicists think that physics is the correct way to pattern human institutions, as madbolter1 mentions above... but I do agree with Dr. F that beliefs that something is real when that something is a human social construction can have bad outcomes among human societies, and within a society.
The mind is probably a complex phenomena, worthy of study on its own, where our experience has guided initial forays into explanations. I don't think it is beyond a material explanation, here I disagree with Largo, but I think I have the more optimistic view. Largo's appeal to quantum mechanics has no basis in science, at least for an object as large as a brain, at finite temperature. Those thermal interactions quickly destroy any of the quantum behavior such a thing would have. We cannot make a quantum computer out of a few bits last very long, let alone expanding a wave function over the universe for our minds to "tap into." I don't think it is a limitation of my imagination that I conclude this, it is just quantum mechanics... but you have to understand it to understand what I'm saying.
So much of what we are concerned with as humans is just being human, what does that mean? Certainly our consciousness seems to be unique. The reason that is probably has to do with the irrelevance of consciousness to survival... the vast expanse of life on our planet is not conscious in the way we are, yet that life exists as we do. If I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the bacteria for the best chance to survive into the future, conscious life may be a relatively short term experience on the planet.
Certainly the universe will go on with or without us... science teaches us that.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Ed, you should have been a teacher. Most of what you say (I think) I understand. It's late for lynne who's been working the fields today in the hot sun so I will add more manana but just want to say this.....
I know what I believe is not able to be proved, but for me the bottom line is this.
1) It has made a huge difference in my life. One I could not make up on my own. You know me Ed. Pretty much what you see is me. What I say I mean. I'm not a complicated person. God is real. I've never said this before cause it's very scary. But I would give my life for what I just said.
2) Jesus said this, " Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself." He said these were the most important things to live by. If every human did this our world would be changed. Even if people that don't believe in God just loved their neighbor as their self..... Wow.
If you read just what jesus said and forget the rest of the bible it's world changing. He loved, he cared for the underdogs. Even if you don't believe in his miracles....they were helping people. Jesus was all about caring and helping and healing and sharing hope.
There's so much more but I've got a big surf weekend ahead plus family get together stuff. Peace and Joy, lynne
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WBraun
climber
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"God by definition, can not be zero"
The nihilist and impersonal-ists think he's zero, cessation of all material activities.
The materialists are on the negative side and think he's ultimately like them.
The personal-ists are on the positive side and think he's ultimately a person from which all manifestations ultimately emanate.
Guess which one is the truth .....
Heh heh heh
betcha can't .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed wrote: "however, spiritual experiences necessarily involve our perception, there's just no way around that, the experience itself is contained within a mind, someone experiences it, and then tries to explain that experience"
That sound right, but believe it or not, one of the more profound and very universal experiences of eyes open meditation is the realization that awareness is hooked up with the "void" I mentioned earlier, and the void is not local, meaning it's not located in one spot (one brain) and it's "you" either. No possible way to prove that one either.
Also, I'm using quantum mechanics strictly as a metaphor because through direct experience, void, the spontaneous arising of thoughts and feeling and so forth, plus a bunch of other things suggest not that the brain is a giant quantum machine, but that nothing and something and, form and emptiness and insubstantiality are all part of Mind. But that's only the first layer. No-mind, or being, is the direct experience of the void itself, and that's the advanced course.
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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it's funny, but the only one to agree with me about 9/11 is klimmer, and he seems to have disappeared. we can't agree about much else, and he didn't take up my invitation to climb fissure of men, 5.1, wall of biblical fallacies. i thought it would be good to start easy.
what ed said: "I do agree with Dr. F that beliefs that something is real when that something is a human social construction can have bad outcomes among human societies, and within a society."
a bit confusing, needs to be read slowly, but the point is we're getting bad outcomes from an 800-lb gorilla. the big kid on the block has become a bully, and praying to jesus about it hasn't worked from jesus day 1. i'm a live-and-let-live type when it comes to beliefs, but if your beliefs lead you to ignore what is important to all of us, it's time for me to get out my hammer and start pounding.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Ed, John...
I like what you two have to say about our (limited) understanding of the mind and conciousness.
Reminds me of a good book writen by Tenzin Gyatso (14th and current Dalai Lama):
The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality
He spent some time with physicists and scientists, learning about current theories, and the result was this book.
In it, he has a chapter on conciousness, and he notes that it is hard to objectively quanitfy and even talk about it, since everybody experiences their own personally, thus subjectively... And when trying to talk about what they experience, people are limited by vocabulary, in that many cultures have different ideas and definitions for "heart" (not the blood pump type ;-P), "mind", "spirit", "soul", etc...
Tis a good read, from a well read and enlightened man.
That said... Many who find God 'lurking' in or evidenced by the things we don't fully understand have the "God Of The Gaps", in that he is only in the gaps in our knowledge...
"...a careful reading of older texts, particularly those concerned with the universe itself, shows that the authors invoke divinity only when they reach the boundaries of their understanding. They appeal to a higher power only when staring into the ocean of their own ignorance."
~Neil deGrasse Tyson
"The less one knows about the universe, the easier it is to explain."
~Leon Brunschvicg
God (supernatural explanations) used to get a lot more credit back when we understood less about the world around us, but as we come to understand more and more, we just don't need the supernatural explanations anymore, since we see perfectly natural ones that we understand enough to have practical uses. (I.e., Science works!)
Unfortunately, many cling to those age old supernatural explanations, and willfully ignore what we really do know about the world... That is a disconnect with reality.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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What can be,
Omniscient
Omnipresent
and
Omnipotent
Other than the Void?
(or Logos if you want to use John's term.)
(the other John)
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pa
climber
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A few questions for Mr. Hartouni, in the spirit of inquiry, not of contention.
1."What we perceive is different from what we sense".
How does that happen?
2."The mind is probably a complex phenomena".
Probably?
3."Certainly our consciousness seems to be unique. The reason that it is probably has to do with the irrelevance of consciousness to survival".
Could you explain that some more?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oooooooo Lynne, I was hoping you weren't going to say that! That it "can't be proved", yikes!
Although, God said in his own words that science would not be able to prove things that exist in Hebrews 11:3, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear," if someone asks us to prove the Bible to them we have to rely on circumstantial evidence which belies even some of the most regarded attorneys, historians and others. I don't have enough time to begin listing all of the resources, for there are countless papers written on the subject but here a just a few on the proof of Christ's resurrection:
1. The Bible, 1Cor:5-19
2. Gary Habermas' The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, or:
3. E. M. Blaiklock Professor of Classics, Auckland University
"I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history" . . .
The lists go on and on. The Bible having been written over 1500 years and for the prophetical events over that time to come to pass 100% of the time is unfathomable. A good friend of mine, David Hall, (http://quiettimepoems.blogspot.com); in his earlier years as a statistical student wrote a term paper on seventeen of these very prophecies and his conclusion that these events happened by chance are: 1 chance in 4.8E+33.
Even though, as a young Christian myself, just a "babe", I will continue to arm myself with as much evidence as I can find in order to save "just one" from going to hell when they die. I'm not out to convert ANYONE but to just share what God has done for me in hopes that someone, someday, will find what I have found.
Thank God for it ALL!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dr. F wrote: "4) God must know all knowledge and have a sort of brain, and source of power."
Have you ever heard of the term, Anthropomorphism. A fancy way of saying that we tend to make things in our own image, giving "God" human qualities like "a sort of brain," except in God's case, it's a super duper-big assed brain that knows everything for all time and stuff. And a body, too. And a power pack, like superheros, maybe. And he directs sh#t, like evolution, and arbitrarily
kills widows and orphans, which makes "Him" ("He" is a big white dood with a fat wallet, straight, etc.) confusing. Hell, he's you dad! Sort of.
Go back to what Ed was talking about. His was a rather popular phenomenological approach to consciousness, made famous by that boring old Kraut Emmanuel Kant, who said, basically, that since everything is extruded through consciousness, consciousness will always stand between us and "that" which enters our field of consciousness, ergo, the das ding an sich, or the-thing-as-such, is entirely unknowable. What we "know" or experience is in fact generated or sourced entirely by an evolved brain, mechanistically, and could be entirely "explained" in terms of material processes if we only knew a bit more. I'm saying it's all sourced by the void, and that out true nature is not "something" ever shifting, but the background from which all things arise and all things return, including consciousness itself.
JL
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Ed,
We've met and I respect you even though I don't really "know" you, for you are older than me (haha). No, really, it is obvious that you are much more edumacated than I am, but do you really, I mean really, think that we humans, as small as we are in comparison to our earth, not to mention, our solar system, oh yes, our galaxy, ah yes, the UNIVERSE, (comprising of how many identified galaxies thus far?), are going to be able to put our finger on exactly the how, what, where's and why's of existence one day? There's a book that's been around for some time now that say's it won't! If the Bible is just a conglomeration of many writings of men over the centuries, how's that for putting their reputation on the line?! I'm still waiting for these men to be proven wrong. Do you really think we'll do it, come up with all the answers?
I know it's our nature to be inquisitive and necessary for the advancement of technology, etc. but what harm does it do you, or anyone else for that matter, to give credit to God for EVERYTHING that exists? Would you have to acknowledge that you don't know everything? God forbid! That you would have a higher standard to live up to? Can't have that! That you would be "set apart" from the norm and others would say things about you? Good Lord no! The Bible even encourages us to use our individual "gifts" but we're just using them for the wrong purposes. All that knowledge upstairs, it's to be used for God, Family, Church. Once those are taken care of everything else is extra credit!
I lived the world Ed, for 45 years, 45 amazing years (I'm 48 now). At least that's what I thought. How wrong I was! I can look back now and see how selfish, how self centered, how egotistical I was, not to mention how HURTFUL I was to those that knew me, including my own children, and to those that didn't know me, ie; those that just observe me. It was "all about me" Ed and I know I'm speaking for many out there. It's not "all about you" folks. We've been lied to for many, many, many years!
Do you really want to know the way to live your life; what the truth is about your existence and your life? Again, there's ONE book out there, yes, only one, that lays claim to this, that put's ALL of it's reputation on the line by saying, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6 KJV
Thank you God for saving my life!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Thanks Largo-
Having just attended a Tibetan Buddhist retreat I was going to say something similar though not nearly as well. Tom Cochrane expressed something similar though in more western terms at Frank's memorial, when he stated, "I believe the universe is made of spirit on which the physical world floats, not the other way around".
As for Dr. F., he obviously is not happy with his atheistic stance no matter how much he tries to convince us. He's got way too much emotion invested for his arguments to be objective. Of course the line between love and hate is often quite thin. Better to stick with the middle way in my opinion.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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illusiondweller-
You are being culturecentric. There is definitely more than one sacred book out there that discusses God and how man should live.The interesting thing, is that they all pretty much agree on the how to live part.
While it's good that you have benefitted from the Bible, a billion or so other people on this planet living in India have benefitted equally from the Vedas and Upanishads, especially the Bhagavad Gita, and a billion or so in China have benefitted from the Tao Te Ching, the Analects of Confucius, and numerous Buddhist sutras. Then there's the mere hundreds of millions who have benefitted from the Koran.
Just because something has worked for you, doesn't mean the same formula will work for everybody.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan,
First, I never said anything "worked for me". I continue to live with sin, suffering, turmoil and grief. Often I live in comfort, and regress, still thinking of myself. Some of this won't change but what HAS changed is that I've been forgiven and I am 100% sure that, when I die, I will not end up spending eternity in hell. All due respect to those non-Christians in India and elsewhere but after living with "what worked for them" they will end up in hell, spending eternity without Jesus Christ.
Second, please show me ONE other book that says, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Really, I'd like to see it.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jesus is saying that He is "the way", "the truth" and "the life", "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." If this is so then there is NO OTHER WAY, not Buddha, not Confuscious, not Tao Te Ching, nor "Vedas and Upanishads, especially the Bhagavad Gitaam", am I reading this correctly Jan?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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100% sure, huh?
Whatever gets you through the night.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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You see Jan, to say that something "worked for me" is saying that it's about me, that I get the credit. Like I said before, "it's not about you". What I'm sharing with you is about GOD, it's all about GOD, not me! God gets the credit! Do you see the difference?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Yes sir, 100% sure...would you like to know how I'm sure cintune?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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illusiondweller-
I am quite sure that if you had been born into another culture where another religion prevailed, that when you found God, you would maintain with your current understanding, that the religion of that culture was absolutely the only one with any truth and try to convert us all to that one. The fact that you can not see yourself and your religious beliefs as a part of a particular culture is quite amazing to me.
Meanwhile, to use your argument, the Vedas claim that the high caste Brahmins are twice born and that everyone must become a Brahmin before they can reach enlightenment. It says so in their holy book therefore it must be true, right? After all there is only one book that says this and if its in only one book it must be true according to your reasoning.
Not surprising then that my Brahmin neighbors in Nepal used to tell me that they felt sorry for me. Despite all my education and opportunities I wasn't born Brahmin, therefore I had to be reincarnated at least once more - as a Brahmin. Of course many of them were illiterate and lived in poverty, but they definitely knew they had the truth compared to me and pitied me just as you do.
Frankly, I don't believe either of you. Any God worthy of the name, is certainly above human cultural limitations.
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Fixdpin
Trad climber
Porterville,CA
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It is not logical to believe in God. But, it is reasonable if you have ever believed in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, the Devil, Tarot cards,good luck, bad luck, saying "Bless you" after someone sneezes, or almost anything else that many of us believe in as we grow up.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan,
Oh most certainly do I believe in that I would be a product of what my culture would bestow me, without a doubt. But here in America, the "melting pot" of the world we have access to all beliefs, including those that you already mentioned. So, what culture did I grow up with? Yes, I was raised with a "Prodestant" (whatever that means) upbringing, till I was about (4) years old and had the Christian God pretty much in the center of my culture (although living my own life and nobody elses but my own). But, as I became a married man, I married a Buddhist from Bangkok, Thailand. I traveled there as well. Did I become a Buddhist? No, but I decided to learn the basics of her cultural religion to better understand where she was coming from hoping that it would help the relationship out. While I was there, I trekked in Nepal as well and learned a bit of the Hindu religion and Anamism (very little). I am unfortunately divorced from her now and whether our cultural difference had anything to do with that, I may never know.
I then was baptized a Mormon in New Orleans, Louisiana. Yep, and thought I was going to marry a schizophrenic woman there (I'm not kidding about the schizophrenia!). Thank God, that didn't work! I then met my current wife, a Catholic, and attended Mass with her regularly. Was I searching? Yep.
I then ended up in jail secondary to an addiction to sex, think what you will. I, fortunately, found a Christ centered addictions program (http://www.reformu.com/); that is changing my life, my spouses life and my five year old's life. I'm sure it's indirectly changing more people than I know, including my twenty five year old son's (atheist) and my twenty one year old daughter's (agnostic) lives as well (from my first marriage). Do I still have a issue with my addiction, most certainly.
But like I said before, there is no other book in this world that put's it's reputation on the line and lays claim with 100% certainty and accuracy what that Bible does! There can only be one Truth Jan, there can't be two, nor three. There must be only one. The Bible says, "I am the truth..." I now have my answer and if I can share what I now know to a Buddhist, to a Muslim, a Taoist, etc., or to those in India or Nepal I will. This is what Jesus did and not only did this but died the death of the cross for you Jan, for me and for all others, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16 KJV
My heart goes out to you Jan and I don't mean that in a sorrowful way but in a very loving sense.
Glory to God
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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illusiondweller-
Thanks for your openness and honesty. I wish you success in your current battles and future endeavors. I'm glad you found something that works for you.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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All due respect to those non-Christians in India and elsewhere but after living with "what worked for them" they will end up in hell, spending eternity without Jesus Christ.
--------
I'm thinking that some part of you must already be in hell to think as much.
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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ah, hell.
everyone thinks hell is a hot place, but if you read dante's inferno (yea, what does an italian know?), the very bottom of hell, reserved for the worst sins of all, is a frozen lake in which the devil itself is frozen. (the devil's underlings are the ones in red tights and pitchforks. i wonder if they suffer).
anyway, the devil has the three worst sinners in history in its mouth. can you guess who they might be? this was long before adolph hitler, joseph stalin and richard cheney came along. (does cheney still have a chance to save his soul?)
these three bad guys are brutus, cassius and judas iscariot. the worst sin of all, in dante's mind, is betrayal.
i find it interesting that michelangelo buonarotti, with whose work i'm sure everyone is familiar, sculpted a little-know bust of brutus. as a footnote, michelangelo, dante and niccolo machiavelli were all florentine democrats, passionate about the rule of the people, and all frustrated about that in their lifetimes, leading to great productivity in other realms. brutus, for michelangelo, was as noble a hero as you can imagine.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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okay, here's my second post in a row. if i do a third, you can feel free to ignore that one.
that elaine pagels lecture i mentioned had to do with the recently discovered gospel of judas. this is a bit of early christian literature supposedly written by judas himself in repentence for his role in the arrest of jesus. dante, eat your heart out.
the apocryphal gospel i really like is called the infant gospel of jesus. jesus is playing around with the kids on the block and, being just a kid himself, loses his temper and kills them all in a fit of divine opprobrium. then he realizes what he has done, thinks better of it, and brings them all back to life. everyone lives happily ever after. until each of them dies, of course.
these two gospels appear to be contemporaneous with "the big four" which made it into the king james bible via emperor constantine. these four were chosen because, basically, it makes christianity a more reasonable and administrable religion. think roman umpire. but you will find echoes of all the matthew-mark-luke-john material in the many apocryphal gospels, and the one they really tried to stamp out, because it offered a much less administrable version of christianity, was the gospel of thomas.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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It seems ultimately there are choices. To believe or not to believe and what to believe in. I have probably been on every side of the fence. True fanatical believer to non-believer. Almost always though was the lingering question, how do I know I am right.
As many do, I turned to science, I turned to writings and I turned to what I considered scholars. For me a break through occurred sitting at a test bench starring at a bunch of numbers coming from a bunch of test equipment and listening to two guys talk about religion.
One say's the inevitable. I prefer to believe in science. For me that was an epiphany. At that time I sat and stared at all these numbers and wave forms and I realized that no matter what track a person takes, that track is their belief.
There isn't a piece of test equipment out there that can prove or disprove the existence of God or what ever name is used. Ultimately, God, no God, it is what a person chooses to believe.
I do not think anyone can say, if you believe or do not believe, this or that will happen since we really do not know. Some truths we seem to have, others are based on what we think are truths.
The writings, the scholars, they have answers, but not all. By definition all are flawed.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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dr. F:
if you know anything about supersymmetry (advanced physics, a school of thought in debate with the string theorists), you might consider that the actions of quarks are the synapses of the divine brain. mathematics is a universal. logic is too. divinity, if it exists, will exist at this level. abstract mathematics, in its way, has a rather spiritual aspect to it.
dr. F, you've admitted that you have a soul. brace yourself for the stampede of those who will now try to save it. i suggest y'all take it to private e-mails.
doc, i should like to point out that you have exceeded the three-in-a-row limit suggested earlier, but i've read them all anyway. not much else to do this morning waiting for my wife to get ready so's we can go to sunday morning service (haha--at the best breakfast joint in the known universe).
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Definitively, there is not anyway to know this. It may seem logical. But, there is not anyway to know if that is true. Unless, that is what you believe.
>>divinity, if it exists, will exist at this level
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WBraun
climber
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Belief does not make it true.
The material body is the covering of the soul.
The soul is not the body.
A crude example:
The clothe you cover your body with is not you.
The clothe you cover your body is reflective of your consciousness.
A climber covers his body with clothing that works for his/her environment due to the consciousness the he or she is a climber.
Due to poor fund of knowledge and material attachment one "thinks" it is the body.
Material body consciousness is the root mistake of the soul.
Without understanding the soul correctly everything else will be subjected to defect.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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pa asks:
1."What we perceive is different from what we sense".
How does that happen?
Actually the NYTimes today reviewed a book, and the review makes at least part of the point that I was getting at: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/books/review/Bloom-t.html
Our perception of what we sense is heavily filtered by the neural network we use to process the information from our senses. In the case that is the title of the aforementioned book The Invisible Gorilla a rather dramatic demonstration of this fact is probably familiar to a lot of you. I'll spare describing it again, I've actually seen the video and fallen into the same perceptual trap, quite astounding (though I knew the point of the demonstration, in this case "not seeing is believing" as it were).
Now there is no doubt that the sensors in the eye that detect the scene are reporting scene correctly (though more on that later), the audience, asked to pay attention to something else in the scene fails to detect something very obvious. Our "perception" of reality is absent pieces of that reality.
Easily explained, the brain cannot process all the information, and the perceptual behavior prioritizes its attention. It is the very point of the fallibility of human witness. This is the stock and trade of "illusion artists."
Now this perceptual filter is not a trivial thing, it actually makes the universe "the way it is" in an odd sense. For instance, our senses are full of "holes." Your eyes have blind spots where the optic nerve connects to the retina. So by all rights you'd think you'd "see" that blind spot. It turns out you don't perceive that blind spot, you "perceive" a continuous field of view, which is what is an excellent description of the scene. But your brain doesn't waste any effort "filling in" the holes, which is what I was taught as a kid, it simply ignores the holes.
Similar things happen with all the other senses.
Most interestingly to me was Oliver Sachs' description of a patient in his book Awakenings in which he observes a patient scratching his nose over the period of a day, slowed down by the chemical imbalance in his brain. Sachs isn't completely clear about this instance, he does state that in order for him to figure out what was going on, he took a sequence of pictures which revealed the action... at any rate, he was able to ask the patient to remember that activity, the patient having been administered L-DOPA, which temporarily corrected the chemical imbalance. The patient was aware that he had scratched his nose, but to him the perception of time was normal, he didn't know that it had taken him all day to do it.
There are a number of anecdotes, and a tremendous field of study both "academic" and practical, regarding the limitations of human perception. This is not a controversial subject.
Simply put, we don't perceive what we sense.
2."The mind is probably a complex phenomena".
Probably?
Like perception, we don't have a really good idea of the elements of "mind" and "consciousness" and the tendency is to believe it's complex because the simpler elements are not understood. Largo will accuse me of being a reductionist, and I'll admit to being one.
But let's take an example... how does the moths and butterflies navigate continental migrations? Such a simple animal, we understand in detail what the elemental parts of the butterfly are, we may actually know how many cells are included in its nervous system.
It has been described to me, by some scientists, as clear indications of "divine intervention" yet the actual mechanisms this simple organism uses have been studied, in a reductionist manner, in detail. See for instance the Science article http://stke.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/sci;325/5948/1700
Reduced to a behavioral response to environmental stimulus in a fascinatingly clever adaptation, the complexity of the human act of navigating from, say from Mariposa to Michoacán it would be easy to infer that butterfly navigation is a complex phenomena, but the complexity is not in the evolutionary solution, but in the process, and even there the process, evolution, is relatively straight forward to describe, what is complex is the actual history of this particular evolutionary path.
My guess is that the phenomena of "mind" and "consciousness" could very well be explained in much simpler terms than we currently think possible. However, I hold out the chance that I am wrong, and that it is a complex phenomena... in the end, explainable by those reductionist techniques that Largo finds so inadequate.
3."Certainly our consciousness seems to be unique. The reason that it is probably has to do with the irrelevance of consciousness to survival".
Could you explain that some more?
Evolutionary convergence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_convergence is the observed phenomena of the "same" biological traits being acquired by organisms of different, and unrelated, evolutionary lineages. Photoreception is an example, many different kinds of "eyes" to take advantage of the information provided by "sight."
My speculation about consciousness is that were it as important as sight in evolution, there would be more of it around. We don't think there is...
...however that in itself leads to an interesting supposition. Let's suppose that consciousness does provide a survival advantage. Then we might infer that it exists in many animals (and plants?). The fact that we don't recognize it could be because we actually don't know what it is.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Largo wrote:
Many religious ideas are products of the mind, as you say, but probably just as many are interpretations or evaluations of spiritual experiences people have had or heard about which in and of themselves (the experiences) are not thoughts.
I think this is a source of our disagreement and my misunderstanding your point. To me, anything that happens to us, which we articulate, is a "thought," where I may accept a larger set of things as "thoughts" then you.
The exercise of achieving a state of "thoughtlessness" is relatively commonly described (though less commonly achieved) part of meditation practice. Even if you believe you achieve it what does it have to do with objective reality? It might awaken your own experience to a world beyond your perception, but that is not a big deal to someone practicing science. In fact, I'd say that as a scientist you don't have to have that sort of experience to understand how different the world is from the way we perceive it.
Would such an experience make for better scientists? not in terms of doing better science.
Can the ideas of modern physics help in our understanding of the world beyond our perceptual chatter? perhaps, but the probably don't help in our understanding of consciousness, the analogies are far from precise, and many of them are just not applicable.
The picture Largo paints of the "roiling vacuum" is compelling, but it is taken from quantum field theory, perturbative field theory which we know is an approximation that describes nature in very well defined regime. The idea of a complex vacuum is a modern concept, it's exact nature is unknown, but not in a mystical way, in a very pragmatic, quantitative way.
This has been discussed for quite some time in physics, related to the issues of the Cosmological Constant Einstein inferred as necessary to explain the static universe, the prevailing cosmological paradigm of the early 20th century. Steve Weinberg addressed the issue of the size of the cosmological constant using modern understanding of the vacuum, in a 1989 paper in Review of Modern Physics 61, 1 (1989). By the best techniques available, his estimate exceeded the observed experimental value by 120 orders of magnitude (powers of ten).
Whatever else this means, to a physicist it is saying there is some physics we are missing in the picture Largo so poetically paints of "bursts of particle anti-particle creation and destruction."
Thus my skepticism on the usefulness of those analogies to consciousness and thought.
Rather, thought and consciousness are attributes of the evolution of our behavior, behavior necessary for our survival as a species, and behavior inherited in our evolutionary lineage. To argue that there is some mystical or spiritual source of this behavior you'd have to explain the evolution of the mystical and spiritual, and where it happens elsewhere among our evolutionary relatives. This evolutionary development is notoriously "messy" with bits and pieces of inherited attributes appropriated for other functions, layered and mixed to address some evolutionary challenge, difficult to unfold.
Perhaps this is being too reductionist?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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doc, there is profuse evidence of continuation of consciousness and personality after death, but you have to open your mind to the paranormal. i didn't pay much attention to it myself until i had some of it fall in my lap.
and no, werner, you don't fit god into these things right away, but learn a little patience, lad. most of the jibberish i hear is from physics dilletantes. you have to pay dues to get into physics, and i don't pretend to have done so, but those who have report things that are very, very interesting, especially to this debate.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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ed hartouni, two very long posts in a row. you're treading in thin ice. will try to read it all--later.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The problem is an epistemological one with regard to the mysterious nature of existence, god.
All religions assume a kind of existence beyond the forms of sensibility.
Our separation from corporeal matter is a function of the very structure of sensual perception. We cannot in the Kantian sense “know” the “thing in itself.”
It is the fallibility of “knowing” that allows us to embrace a leap of intuition and faith and journey into the realm of a spiritual life.
But like the forms of sensibility, the structure of intuition does not allow certainty either, ultimately we still find ourselves separated from any ineluctable reality.
Unfortunately, our intuition like our sensual knowledge seduces with the illusion of knowing and we become perfectly certain of what we cannot be sure of.
Religions have always created anthropomorphic, psychological metaphors that really represent what is grave and constant in our lives.
Even a cursory examination of religious belief systems reveals perfect similarities. Life after death, the virgin birth, the journey into hell and return, the state of perfection in original creation, all of these stories have been told over and over again in countless cultural contexts with only the thinnest of local inflections.
The similarity or syncrety of religious belief systems seems to argue against the absolute reality of any one system.
The great genius of some religions was to take these traditional metaphors (that in their own way certainly enrich our lives) and turn them into historical realities. The consequences have not always been edifying.
So instead of seeing the virgin birth as a metaphor for the birth the spiritual life in the individual,
we are asked to accept it as an historical fact taking place in Bethlehem sometime in the first century.
All significant life experiences are universal: birth, death, dis-engagement into adulthood, old age. Dealing with these universal gravities has created similar systems of reconciliation, but reconciliation does not solve the mystery.
We cannot be certain if God is or is not or even what God is and it seems particularly tragic to impose our metaphors turned historical realities on others.
Know thy metaphor. And if you want reconciliation to existence remember this:
“…for it is only as an aesthetic experience that existence and the world are eternally justified.”
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pa
climber
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Mr. Hartouni, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.
On point #1, I was just making sure I wasn't misunderstanding you...and yes, I agree, perception can indeed be selective.
On the other points, as well as those you address to Mr. Largo, I am afraid I am still questing...perhaps you are too.
"My speculation about consciousness is that were it as important as sight in evolution, there would be more of it around. We don't think there is...
However, that in itself leads to an interesting supposition. Let's suppose that consciousness does provide a survival advantage, then we might infer that it exists in many animals (and plants?). The fact that we don't recognize it could be because we actually don't know what it is".
"Thought and consciousness are attributes of evolution of our behavior, behavior necessary for our survival as a species".
Is it my faulty brain, or is there a contradiction in those two statements?
I suppose a definition of consciousness would be in order, if I had one.
Is consciousness a product of perception or is perception a product of consciousness?
What else, besides perception, is involved in consciousness?
Intuition? Logic? Memory? Experience? Imagination? How reliable/accurate...objective, are any of those?
WB often reminds us that we are not bodies with consciousness, but consciousness with bodies. Is that the same consciousness you refer to, as a scientist?
Obviously, there are different levels of consciousness...that of a cockroach and that of a tree and that of Mr. Illusiondweller and that of Mahatma Ghandi.
You speak of survival as the primary impulse to evolution...the evidence we "perceive" certainly points in that direction.
But is it? Or, should I ask, evolution of what? The physical body or the consciousness bit?
Because, if it is consciousness that is, or should be, evolving, perhaps instead of survival, we should be speaking of manifestation...which could change our priorities: beauty might become more important than possession...
Just mentally speculating...too hot to be outside and missing my mate.
Please share more of your thoughts, if you are so inclined.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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gobee, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn to say it in your own words.
the devil can cut and paste scripture to his purpose.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Mark 3:25, And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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and christianity has how many divisions? you're probably right, it isn't standing very well.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Tony B:
doc, there is profuse evidence of continuation of consciousness and personality after death, but you have to open your mind to the paranormal. i didn't pay much attention to it myself until i had some of it fall in my lap.
Do tell.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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You're all wrong, self dillusional. It's all about inside strength, control, domination of the boards. Get Kobe open and shut down the transition . . . oh, wait . . . wrong thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah, we all clearly see how silly you sound when you ask questions and answer them for everyone including putting your own words into the answers.
Only someone with their pride raging out of control would continually do that.
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WBraun
climber
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You don't ask questions at all.
You demand.
And then answer them yourself.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Illusiondweller, what did I say ???
I totally believe God made the world and all of the universe and creation. It's the "how many years" thing I think the "church" and "science" cannot really prove without a doubt. That's all. Peace on a Sunday evening and thanking my Heavenly Father for today and all its beauty. lynne
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Bird'man,
It's about God and Jesus not religion!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Dr. F, I ask jesus questions and he answers them. Right now I am asking him to help me find a job and what direction the rest of my life will take.
I asked him why Dan had to die so early (at least to me) and the purpose of his death. I ask him for help in specific and practical areas of my life and he answers those too.
Like any relationship it grows according to the time and energy and mucho caring you put into it. And one needs to listen......:D
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Ed- "Awakenings."
Was that the same book that they made a movie out of starring Bobby De Niro and Robin Williams?
Neuoligist Oliver Sachs, yea...it is a true story.
Just incredible.
Excellent movie and probably as so with the book. I/we were required to watch it and write a report on Awakenings for one of my neuro/phys. dys. classes back in college, it had quite an impact on me!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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nice of you to ask, cintune. i did touch on it before, but it's a big part of my life and way of looking at things.
this was shortly after my dad died in 1994. my wife and i have had a marriage with much difficulty, but we've stuck with it, with each other, with our kids. several months after dad died, she was talking to a friend about us, and her friend suggested she come with her to a friend who was a gifted psychic. this isn't the storefront type. so she went, they sat down, and out of the deep blue nowhere this gal said, "there's a man with us in the room right now who recently died, his name begins with 'r', and he says that he is responsible for the troubles your husband is having". my dad's name was robert.
so it went. remarkable what a real psychic is capable of. it's a gift, an ability only a few people have, the only explanation for it. like only a few people among us can perform a violin concerto, another kind of miracle. what clinched this for me was information. my grandfather had committed suicide by hanging himself. my father, a short time afterward, had set a rope swing in the side yard and pushed us, his sons, on it, dreaming of good futures for us, trying to do something positive with a rope. this gal had no way of knowing these things. she "channeled" for my dad, my paternal grandfather, and my maternal grandmother, an always positive presence in my life, who showed up as an "angel". i recognized my grandfather right away by his wry humor, his way of turning words. like me, he was a frustrated poet.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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just teasing, dr. F. it wasn't my suggestion, btw, but i thought it might be a good idea. like i say, feel free to ignore any third-in-a-row posts i make.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i think dr. F if by far the greatest mind on this thread.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mr. Long,
I wasn't the first to say that some people are going to hell. I was just paraphrasing the originator of that remark, God, when he said through John:
"16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." -John 3:16-19
God does not lie, but is the truth, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." And earlier in that same passage God explains how to avoid hell, "...that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
All you have to do is "believe"...otherwise, yep, you guessed it.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Not only that but He says it's a free gift!...
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 6:23
GIFT, n. [from give.] A present; any thing given or bestowed; any thing, the property of which is voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation. - Noah Webster's 1828 dictionary
That means that you don't have to work to receive it. Nothing you can do (works) can earn that gift, "8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
"All you have to do is believe."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Tony,
"27A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:27
"10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee." - Deuteronomy 18:10-13
"All you have to do is believe"
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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ABOMINA'TION, n.
1. Extreme hatred; detestation.
2. The object of detestation, a common signification in scripture.
The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. Prov 15. -
Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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People chose those words for their meaning, so I don't know what great big point you are trying to make by quoting the bible and then providing the definitions.
There is no god. Those are human words. The bible is a product of the human imagination.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Those are human words. The bible is a product of the human imagination."
Impossible...
Bible Prophecy and Probability
The record of Bible prophecy and the corresponding historical fulfillment.
By: Brother David Hall, San Diego, CA
PROPHECY/ PROBABILITY
1. His birth in Bethlehem from the tribe of Judah. - Michah 5:2/Matt 2:1
/1:2400
2. He would be preceded by a messenger. - Isaiah 40:3/Matt 3:1-2
/1:20
3. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt. - Zech 9:9/Luke 19:35
/1:50
4. He would be betrayed by a friend. - Psalm 41:9/Matt 26:47-48
/1:10
5. His hands and feet would be pierced. - Psalm 22:16/Luke 23:33
/1:100
6. He would be scourged by His enemies. - Isaiah 53:5/Matt 27:26
/1:10
7. His betrayal for 30 pieces of silver. - Zech 11:12/Matt 26:15
/1:50
8. He will be spit upon and beaten. - Isaiah 5:6/Matt 26:27
/1:10
9. His betrayal money would be thrown into the temple. Zech11:13/Mat 27:5-7
/1:200
10. He would be silent before His accusers. - Isaiah 53:7/Mat 27:12-14
/1:100
11. He would be crucified with thieves. - Isaiah 53:12/Mat 27:38
/1:100
12. People would gamble for His garments. - Psalm 22:18/John 19:23-24
/1:100
13. His side would be pierced. - Zech 12:10/John 19:34
/1:100
14. None of His bones would be broken. - Psalm 34:20/John 19:34
/1:20
15. His body would not decay. - Psalm 16:10/Acts 2:31
/1:10000
16. His burial in a rich an's tomb. Isaiah 53:9/Mat 27:57-60
/1:100
17. The darkness covering the earth at midday. - Amos 8:9/Mat 27:45
/1:1000
Total odds against the above prophesied events occuring by chance are:
4.8E+33
Man is good...but not that good!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Coincidences and fabrications to fit with the predictions.
Crucifixions took place for about a thousand years and I'm sure those thousands killed were treated quite cruelly before death too, but Mel Gibson didn't make a movie about any of them to weep over.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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About Me: David Hall
Name: David Hall Location: San Diego, California, United States
I retired from the U.S. Navy in 1997. More importantly, I trusted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior in 1973 and will tell anyone about Him who will listen to the evidence that He is the Savior of the world! I have been employed as an English teacher, but am now retired and serving the Lord full time. I am especially eager to present the evidence that PROVES the Bible to be true, by examining the accuracy of fulfilled prophecy (God has NEVER been wrong), the historical reality of the resurrection of Christ, the intelligent design evident in nature by which God has clearly illustrated His attributes, and an objective examination of the scientific validity of the Bible, whenever it speaks to issues of science (e.g., the Bible's claim that the stars were innumerable (Jeremiah 33:22) while astronomers in 150 A.D. said there were at most 3,000). A lot is riding on this, friends. God's promises of salvation are as valid as His promises of judgment. And you must decide which one you want to experience for all of your eternity... a long time to regret the wrong choice. Come to Christ today, while you may. -Matthew 11:28.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Here we have fish discussing the nature of water.
The fish are mainly composed of water.
Current research and discussions and historic records from ancient fish don't really change the nature of water in which swimming is occurring now.
The fish may or may not be chemists or physicists or meta-physicians or theologians or computational fluid dynamicists. Yet the dialog is interesting and consuming of attention units. However those are not necessarily the critical enablers of increased awareness.
The noise of dialog can also be a factor impeding awareness, particularly when an individual fish's sense of cultural origins, personal rightness and social stature within the school is threatened.
People are tools builders.
Language(including mathematics and financial computations) is one of our most powerful tools.
Language has serious limitations relative to deep awareness and wisdom.
In fact this might be our critical anthropomorphic measure of the maturity of the fish society i.e. understanding that all have much to learn, and respectfully agreeing not to argue about unprovable belief systems; as the fish mutually and separately endeavor to increase awareness.
It may increase awareness to have less of arguing and more of spending time enjoying swimming (or climbing).
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Hey Juan,
Really, it's been fun sparring with you for a while now. How's everything? Need any help, money, a helping hand, can I help out in any way? I'll do what I can.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Not one of those crucified were resurrected and had over five hundred witnesses to the same nor were prophesized a thousand years or more before either!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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David,
No, thank you, I'm fine.
I hope that you are well also.
I'm not Juan.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Tom,
I enjoy sharing God's Word immensly, no argument here! Defending God's word? Absolutely! Enjoy climbing?...coming up on 30 years now!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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If you ever are in a bind, email me.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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let's see, he saw the light in 1973 and served in the war machine of the nation under god until 1997, helping jesus take the world by force.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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RE: Intelligent Design:
Phillip Johnson, the guy that popularized the term "Intelligent Design" and founded the Discovery Institue as a means of fleshing out his "theory", has since abandoned it as a working theory (and even the phrase) stating himslef, "Intelligent design is NOT a theory that can compete with Evolution in any scientific way...". They (Phillip and his fellows at DI) have since moved onto "Teach the controversy" (one that they created, in their own minds), as part of their new "Wedge Strategy" to get God into school.
If someone wants to believe in, or promote ID, they need to research it a bit, and who Phillip Johnson is, as HE is your prophet if you are believing HIS views... Ironically enough, ones that he has since abandoned.
If you are interested, which I doubt (Ignore, ignore, deny, deny...):
Try this
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
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Dr. F,
I did not write that quote that you referenced. My friend, David Hall, stands by that. I posted his testimony in hopes someone like yourself would email him with your response. It would be interesting to see how he replies to your logic. Go to his blog: http://www.blogger.com/profile/08120659707312574416 and let us know how you fare.
Oh, a simple "click" on my username, "illusiondweller" would have told you that my name wasn't David Hall.
You doing okay Dr. F? You in need of anything, money, help of any kind, climbing gear? Let me know, I'll do what I can.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Adam,
It is very obvious that David Hall is using the words "intelligent design" very literally and not referring to this "theory" you elaborated on. An intelligent designer, ie; God. Goodness gracious.
How about you rrrAdam...can I help in any way? Drop me an email and I'll do my best.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
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Jesus WAS and IS the Son of God. Jesus IS GOD! If God had come down and revealed Himself to man, without taking on the form of flesh, we wouldn't be alive:
"20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. - Exodus 33:20
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Even if Jesus was standing in front of some today there would still be unbelief, as there was in His day. Some things don't change and some will end up in hell. Sad, but true. Even on one's own death bed, if they cried out to God and believed, they would be accepted into Heaven. I'm sure this is how long it will take for some. Better late than never.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
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It is very obvious that David Hall is using the words "intelligent design" very literally and not referring to this "theory" you elaborated on. An intelligent designer, ie; God. Goodness gracious. It is VERY obvious to anyone not inside your small box of dogma that you CANNOT think outside of it.
As evidenced by your answer to this one simple question:
"What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong?"
Care to HONESTLY answer it? I'll bet you just (deny, deny, ignore) ignore it.
And... How are YOU using the term? If you don't believe in ID, then how specifically are you using the term?
How about you rrrAdam...can I help in any way? Drop me an email and I'll do my best. Don't need any my friend... I have an exeptionally good life... Very fulfilling and meaningful... I make a substancial difference in my community, and the ironic part is I live deep in the Bible belt, and when some find out that I'm an atheist, they can't believe it, and say that God is working through me. I've even had one say that she is convinced I am a Christian, but just don't know it. She can't think outside her box of dogma either... Good person though, just deluded.
Used to be "Born Again", but saw the light, so to speak.
Nice front you are putting by offering though... Even though we both know it's false.
How 'bout putting your money where your mouth is, truely following the words of your prophet, and really helping people who need it?
Matthew 19:21
And Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Luke 12:33
"Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys."
Bet you won't do that either... All talk, no walk.
And Lynne...
John 14:14 "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
That's pretty direct... No qualifiers, "[Pray] Ask for ANYTHING in my name, and I will do it", so you should do as Dr F suggests.
Here, let me try first...
"Jesus, please appear in this thread, and give us guidance.
In Jesus' name I pray"
[crickets]
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
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Jesus WAS and IS the Son of God. Jesus IS GOD! Interesting... To whom did he fall prostrate to and pray? To whom did he cry out when on the cross to? And what did Jesus call him? Remember, Jesus wasn;t a Christian, he was a Jew.
You know... The man-made answer, "The Trinity", didn't really come about till the 4th century. Wait... I forgot about your box, you probably don't know that, and think it always has been that way. And will not look into things that do not fit comfortable into your box.
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
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Adam,
Just let me know what I can do and I'll do my best for you. I had every intention the first time I asked.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Just let me know what I can do and I'll do my best for you.
Fair enough... You can answer the questions I have posed to you.
I do not think you will do your best though, in fact I think you will ignore them, which is why I said your offer is a false front.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Was Jesus God?
1. 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15
2. 1"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 2The same was in the beginning with God." - John 1:1-2
3. 15"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:" - 1Peter 3:15
4. "56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." - John 8:56-59
5. "30I and my Father are one." - John 10:30-33
6. "44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness." - John 12:44-46
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Was Jesus God (cont.)...
7. "6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" - John 14:6-9
8. "32Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." - John 6:32-35
9. "12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go." - John 8:12-14
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Was Jesus God? (cont.)...
10. "7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." - John 10:7-11
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Adam,
Glory to God that you're saved! This verse is for you then:
"7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." - Isaiah 55:7
You can't lose your salvation, so it looks like your stuck, Christian, wohoooooo! That's okay, you'll thank Him in the end.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
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You didn't answer the questions...
It's very simple... Look for sentences that end with this ---> ? <
That will clue you in that it is a question.
Copy it, paste it into a quote, then answer it.
If that's really your "best", I can believe that, as you box of dogma is very limited.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
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Patience Adam, I'm getting to you.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
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"What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong?"
Show me objective/historical proof that God doesn't exist.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
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I wrote, to you: Fair enough... You can answer the questions I have posed to you.
I do not think you will do your best though, in fact I think you will ignore them, which is why I said your offer is a false front. YOu are predicatble... I know you better than you know yourself, because I used to be you, until I saw the light.
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
|
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"What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong?"
Show me objective proof that God doesn't exist.
Show me objective proof that I (rrrADAM) am not God.
See how that works? Your thinking, and thus your questions, are flawed.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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uhemmm....
Uhemmm... There were many, hence the "s" on the end of the word questions.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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add "historical" to that qoute also
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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add "historical" to that qoute also So you are moving the goal post now?
I am God... I can chose any form I like, I was known as "I AM", Jesus, and now rrrADAM. So all of history is about ME.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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...still waiting for proof.
Hey Adam, seriously, drop me an email and I'll do my best for you. Try me.
Gotta go,
G. McCay
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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... I'll do my best for you. Try me. I have "tried you", and predicted that you wouldn't answer a thing.
Like I said, you wouldn't answer anything... You've ignored every question, sans a reply with a non-answer to only one.
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
I'd really have a better chance having a discourse with my dog, as at least he truely and genuinely WANTS to learn. You really don't.
You really should be embarrasssed that an atheist who's never met you, can so easily predict your actions, to the tee, after only sharing a few replies with you over the net. That should tell you something, but you are too delusional to see it.
Here's a task for you... You don't even have to reply...
Just ask YOURSELF:
Why is it that I cannot REALLY answer the simple questions he just asked me?
See, it's really this simple...
If you believe that your belief system is reasonable, then you should have no problem reasonably articulating why you think it is.
You really have only 3 options:
1. Reasonably articulate why it is true, correct, or connected to reality.
2. Admit that it is unreasonable, but believe it anyway.
3. Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
None have done 1...
Very few have had the guts to do 2 (but I truely respect them for it, my wife is one)...
The VAST MAJORITY do 3, yourself included:Gotta go
Please... Prove me wrong.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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like i said, ID spent his career as a cog in a war machine. saving souls is his retirement hobby. i wonder whether his fine soul has even the tiniest twinge of conscience over some of the third world trouncing he was involved in, however remotely from some comfy carrier docked in diego garcia. you know what i think, ID? first thing big J is gonna say to you on this side of the pearly gate is, "howsoever you have done to collateral damage, so you have done unto me". don't bet your soul he won't.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Tony,
Huh? War Machine? Who? I was a Paramedic in the civilian world and a Navy reservist for eight years with one tour in Iraq, and in those eight years, I never stepped foot on a ship! I think you're mistaking me for someone else. No retirement there nor from Emergency Medicine. A stay at home dad without a job. No glamour here!
God obviously offends you, that's okay, you're not the first. It's the internet big guy, everything will be okay.
I have some gear that is yours as well if you're interested, two ice axes and a slough of screws in particular. Can I help in anyway? Email me if you like.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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There's a reason there is the motto about being powerless about changing someone else's thoughts, feelings, conduct, beliefs. Like they say in NLP, never argue with someone locked into a perspective.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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What I find most annoying about such contributors, is that they assume none of the rest of us have ever read the Bible for ourselves and that their selective quotations from it are the first time we've ever heard those words or any others from the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures.
They refuse to believe that it is possible to read those very same passages and come to different conclusions than they have. Of course Martin Luther made the same mistake when he assumed that if we all had a Bible to read we would all then agree on what the truth was. 500 years and over a thousand different Christian denominations later, I think that one has been proved false.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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EVERY single Christian denomination there is split off from another because THEY thought they were more moral and righteous than the group they were splintering from. Every one!
So, we can think of this like a tree, [generally] with Catholicism as its big thick trunk, higher up it splits into 2, the East/West schism, then later, especially in the West, into many thousands of convoluted branches, each getting thinner. Dig into the soil though, and we see that its roots are in other religions and pagan beliefs that predate Jesus and even Judaism, but many won't look that deep... They focus only on their branch.
Many today are on a pretty thin branch. But, of course, they confidently believe that they are more moral and righteous than the rest of the tree... They look back at the tree, dirt, other trees, and all around and say, "Wrong, wrong, wrong! You are all going to Hell!"
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
It is the key to maintaining any delusional belief.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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iraq tour--sounds like a war effort to me. they say we've laid so much depleted uranium in the iraq landscape around basra that cancer rates went up 1000 percent. they also say our own GIs get rectal cancer from sitting in abramses made from same. just rumors i've heard--from veterans.
largo--never argue, if you crave the satisfaction of winning--today.
here-hear, rrradam.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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a little lesson in christianity for the "believers" on this thread.
all you have to do is believe? ah, hate to tell you this, but you're not quite reading that right. there is a narrow school of christianity that subscribes to that, mostly uneducated, frenetic airheads who seem to bang off each other in a minor critical mass and melt down.
you see, belief is only the beginning. belief is where you get started. and it won't save your soul unless you follow through on it. there are many pitfalls ahead for believers, and they can come quite easily from the lips of the preacher whispering sweet nothings in your ear. do we have to talk about pedophiliac priests and closet homosexual televangelists?
face it, christianity is hard work. most people really don't want to get into it too far. you need to get a life in this life as well as establishing your retirement account for the next one. if you take the precepts of jesus seriously, they're downright demanding. do i have to cite chapter and verse? read the beatitudes, take up your cross, and get your sorry glutei maximi crucified like he did. oh yea, there are plenty of spiritual freeloaders riding big J's coattails, but they're all second-string saints. and, as i say, be careful about that. don't start salivating about your salvation. it isn't over til it's over.
catholicism makes all this pretty clear to its dismal crew. protestants, back in the day, broke away for a little fresh air. you see, the jesus christ program is a suit that just doesn't fit our dear old human race very well. ever have one of those? you love the thing, but when you put it on, it's tight at the shoulder, shows too much sock or cuff, cramps your girth, whatever, and you know you just don't look good in it. christians tend to avoid mirrors. instead, they're all ears for the compliments they get from fellow thrift shop regulars.
protestantism wasn't the first reformation. mohammed had a pretty good one long before that, and his program fits a lot of people pretty well. protestantism itself started splintering into bits from the outset. but here's a little story about the "right" church to belong to:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: "Stop. Don't do it."
"Why shouldn't I?" he asked.
"Well, there's so much to live for!"
"Like what?"
"Are you religious?"
He said, "Yes."
I said, "Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?"
"Christian."
"Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"Protestant."
"Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"
"Baptist."
"Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"
"Baptist Church of God."
"Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"
"Reformed Baptist Church of God."
"Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?"
He said: "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915."
I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off.
(thanks to the virtual campfire posts for this one)
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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One of my favorites Tony, and it does point out the variety of understanding people have about the Bible. As I posted earlier, the Bible was written by man, inspired by God but still written by man. Some expect the Bible to be perfect, infallible, as if written by God himself. Not the case. It was not written to answer all questions nor does it represent itself as having absolute truth. As Christian scholars agree, nowhere does it say that. Therefore we cannot defend that which is incomplete or unknowable.
As a pastor once said, he is a ‘follower’ of the Bible. To say that one believes in something forces them to defend it with all of its imperfections and contradictions.
The history of the bible is fascinating and must be kept in context when quoting scripture. Most, if not all of the authors of the Bible were Jewish, there was no Christian religion at that time. References to past teachings, prophesy, etc. were all based upon the Old Testament. The New Testament is a compilation of letters and writings by Jesus' followers to illuminate and explain Jesus' life and message.
We all enter our search for spiritual fulfillment with prejudice, our own sense of right and wrong, what is moral, ethical, etc. Therefore, we Christians gravitate to the flavor of belief, the denomination that fits our prejudice. I don’t think that’s any more wrong than a Guinness drinker thumbing their nose at a Bud Light fan.
As for these ridiculous questions about asking Jesus for answers. If you honestly believe someone can or does sit down and ‘talk’ with God to get specific answers to foolish questions, then either you’re ignorant, diluted, or just playing everyone for fools. If I did spot someone carrying on a detailed conversation with God, I’d be just as concerned as you. At least with me, God doesn’t work that way.
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nita
Social climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Dr F, I think the first five books of the bible are.. same same..Koran. ?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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The New Testament is a compilation of letters and writings by Jesus' followers ... Assuming you mean 'eye witnesses'...
Ummm... If you look into it, most Biblical scholars agree that not a single book of the cannonized NT was written by a person who actually knew Jesus, or witnessed any of the events described in it persoanlly.
The only person who claims to have witnessed any of this was Saul, later known as Paul, and that was "after he heard a voice whilst walking on the road, converted, and claimed to have 'hung out with' Jesus after he was resurrected".
What was it that you said?...it does point out the variety of understanding people have about the Bible.
There is a HUGE difference between the "Historical Jesus", and the "Mythological Jesus" that has lead to many [different] traditional beliefs most do not question, and take as fact... They are however, wrong.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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The Koran was written by God too... No, it wasn't...
It was written by Mohamad, as dictated to him by the angel Gabriel. Thus, they believe it is devinely inspired...
However, it is akin to the NT, as they do recognize much of the OT, and do follow the same [Moses' God's] law... Like Christians regard the NT as Rev.1 to the OT, so do Muslims regard the Qur'an as Rev.1 to the same text. They also trace their lineage back to Abraham.
They are also awaiting the 2nd coming of Christ... Yes, Jesus Christ. And, the 'Virgin Mary' is mentioned more by name in the Qur'an than she is in the entirety of the NT. They do not believe Jesus is/was divine, just as they don't believe Mohamad was either. According to Islamic belief, they were both prophets.
And to be fair, it [Qur'an] is much more devinely inspired than the NT, as it was passed directly to Mohamad from God through Gabriel. The NT however, was written by many men, decades to over a century after the fact, then edited and revised numerous times. What books were written by actual 'eye witnesses' were not canonized, since they didn't fit the "Mythological Jesus" they wanted to center the religion on.
Back when the events were actually happening, and even shortly after Jesus' death, he just wasn't that important of a figure... As evidenced by John the Baptist garnering more mention by ancient historians of the day. Even the Dead Sea Scrolls don't even mention him 1 bit, and that group wasn't very far removed from the sects that Jesus ran with.
It took the early church fathers to spin him up, and control material, to influence the evolving mythology, and lead to many of the "traditional" [yet historically inaccurate] beliefs common today.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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I asked a pastor friend of mine if we have free will, if God is in control of all we do, omniscient, etc. He smiled, nearly pulled his hair out in jest but said yes, we have free will and that if God were in control, he’s not doing a very good job, is He?
After a long discussion his basic point is while we search for empirical evidence and truth about our world and experiences, when compared to God we are merely children and have limited understanding and resources to understand his ways, his ‘mind’, and our universe. We have partial knowledge and seeking to know and understand more is important.
When the bible was written only a select few were literate and little was known about our world. Most everyone was comfortable with mysticism back then and attributed the unknown to the works of God. Our understanding has grown immensely but we still have many unanswered questions. So baffling are these fundamental questions that many scientists today have defaulted, punted if you will, to a ‘God’ factor to explain these unknowns.
The pastor said he chooses to focus instead on faith, hope, and love. He is seeking to find how God is working in our world, in our lives and to encourage others to do the same. To him, that is the message of focus, loving one another. He’s many times embarrassed by fringe elements within the Christian community and it makes him difficult to serve. So many crimes, injustices, acts of immorality, etc. have been committed by religious leaders that it undermines the message. We are all broken in different ways and he encourages others to focus on the messages, not the messenger. Don’t confuse the two.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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rrrADAM, your statement below is a half-truth.
"Ummm... If you look into it, most Biblical scholars agree that not a single book of the cannonized NT was written by a person who actually knew Jesus, or witnessed any of the events described in it persoanlly."
Mark, Matthew, and Luke were 'written' by people who knew and followed the three apostles closely, heard their stories and probably even helped them write, since they were very old men or had just died by the time they were written. John was written by himself and was an apostle.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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I see Tony and Adam are still raving on this thread...pitty.
I see you have some beautiful children in your profile Tony!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Sorry Dr. F, I forgot that you're in on it to. So, what medical training did you go through Dr. F or is that just a screen name?
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Dr F, you remind me of the bible thumping, snake kissing, hypnotically dancing charismatics; only the opposite. Your need to use absolutes points to an intransigent mind that is desperate to get everyone to finally give up and agree with you.
A psychologist friend of mine once said that those on the politically far left and far right, although of opposite opinion, think alike. The mental processes they go through is the same, they just input different parameters and develop extreme conclusions. Both are just as dangerous.
Here’s your quote:
“All evidence, all observations, all theories, all science, all rational, logical arguments would say No God exists”
Really? REALLY? All??
So much for objective reasoning.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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You cannot prove or DISPROVE that all evidence, observations, theories, and even science lead to God's existance or non-existence. There is a school of thought within the scientific community that subscribes to the existence of God simply because no other explanation for 'what is' is possible. Therefore, the argument cannot be "all". Perhaps in your mind the 'all' works, but that, as you like to say, is your fantasy.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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Oh, I've poked fun at my fellow Christians plenty here, even said God was created by his wife, who else? You see, none of us know and around and around we go. Thus, the interminal pissing contest. Just don't use absolutes in your arguments, they rarely work.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Weschrist- that is funny! I'm going to have to copy that one. I wonder, any chance we could put Tinkerbell in a thong?
I see new players have entered the stage. Fresh meat! I'll read some, but they're probably like all the others: clinging to bronze age stupidities and to the Abrahamic Indulgence.
Tony- I'm sad again. Just when you were beginning again to grow on me, you come forth to say with pride even you are a believer in the paranormal. Evidence? That's bogus. Advanced by charletans.
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climbera5
Trad climber
Sacramento
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I don't disagree with your observations on intellegent design. The school of science I'm refering to is concerned with the creation of the universe. The totality of where we came from. I think that God 'invented', for lack of a better word, evolution. I also think God created the earth and heavens over billions of years. He's not on a schedule. None of that belies the message God has for us, love one another.
On a similar vein, if there is no God, then is this all there is? Just a fantastic connection of fortuitous circumstances that created this amazing collection of life on this solitary planet? We die, and that's it? That just doesn't sit well with me. Seems pretty pointless and arbitrary.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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climbera wrote-
"I also think God created the earth and heavens over billions of years."
Which God? The "God" you speak of certainly wasn't Jehovah, God of Moses, God of Abraham.
I thought a dozen pages back or so you said you were a man of science.
"...then is this all there is... We die, and that's it? That just doesn't sit well with me. Seems pretty pointless...
There it is again, that ol tiresome refrain...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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nita, the first five books of the OT, "pentateuch", were thought to have been written by moses. the koran was written entirely by mohammed. islamics consider themselves "people of the book" along with jews and christians, recognizing that written tradition of god. can't say for sure what agreement exists beyond that.
i got into egyptology a couple years ago, and i'd extend this tradition back to then, and not for the reason of the recent popular discovery of akhenaten by conservative christians. just the mood of things, the attitude towards god--the chief god of egypt was amen, and he's a kindly, if remote, god, a lot like god-the-father. the egyptians also have a very compelling judgement which takes place before you can enter the afterlife.
sorry to dismay you, fred. try sticking your own neck out a little instead of lurking. and keep your lustful eyes off my kids.
climbera5--i would dispute your information on gospel authorship. my sources tell me you're filling in a little too much information. the gospel of john was written in polemic to the gospel of thomas, which may have been the most important one at the time. john is not thought to be the author. bart ehrman, elaine pagels, both rather agenda-free scholars.
huffcuss, check back up the thread for my evidence. personal experience, not charlatans. of course, i could be a charlatan, right?
did i say he was happy, dr. F? not exactly the impression i got. i came away with something largo tried to explain a bit earlier--"the background". and if you've ever read the spoon river anthology, i think that would come close.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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btw, if you've never read sigmund freud's moses and monotheism, i think it's a great insight. freud was a better idea man than scientist, and this is quite imaginative.
akhenaten was thought to be the first glimmer of monotheist theology. he was a new kingdom pharoah who completely reformed egyptian religion, perhaps assisted by his lovely if controversial wife, nefertiti. the egyptians always did what their pharoah told them, but this was a bit too much. his version of the sun god, the aten, was a blazingly benevolent presence with which he was perhaps clinically enthralled. he built a new, short-lived capital for this, amarna, midway between the upper and lower capitals, and the end of this era came abruptly, the old gods restored with his son tutankhamen, with the old glory reflected so richly in his burial.
akhenaten is called the "heretic king" for this. freud suggests that moses showed up about a generation later and pulled together all the remnants of the aten cult, dubbed them god's chosen people, and led them out of egypt to a promised land. wow.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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A curious thing with regard to "Moses and Monotheism" and the thoughts of a variety of philosopher skeptics of the late 19th and early 20th century, is the sense or insight that monotheism is somehow a "progression" in the understanding of deity.
Why is the recognition of one deity seen, even in the philosophical realm, as an advancement, progress or evolution of our understanding of what God is?
If one God can exist then why not many? And who's to say that belief in a single God is a theological advancement?
Suggested reading: "Jesus and Yahweh" by Harold Bloom... remarkable book.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Paul- damn straight.
Weschrist- What Tony said is Religious Studies, Freshman Class, High School. Nothing new. The only shame is how religiously and theologically illiterate American pop culture is, so it won't make any progress till this changes.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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largo--never argue, if you crave the satisfaction of winning--today.
Winning? Name one person on this thread who knows who they are and what they are. Anyone out to "win" is power tripping, which is the opposite of being empowered, and knowing yourself is all about the later, not the former - of that you may be sure.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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ANS: HFCS. He knows who he is. He's an evolved being. He's a collection of 100 trillion cells, interconnecting. He's flesh and blood. A sentient fleshling.
Freshman in high school or college are on a course to "win." Graduation is a kind of "winning."
As Richard Dawkins and others have pointed out, we are the first generations in the history of our species to know our roots. They are evolutionary roots.
This isn't arrogance either. This is acceptance of fact. This is respect for science education. What is more, it is living up to one's science education. -Which is apparently easier for some than others. Lastly, this is expressing a stance, our stance, in education, science education and general life education.
Largo, you're climbing books are so clear. And yet... On these threads, I struggle to get you, I purposely search about to seek out your perspective or context so I can say, There, I see where's he's coming from now, but no, you are way out there on these subjects. A lot like Braun.
Just as the Abrahamic religions are bronze age, so are the Easterns. Being Eastern and exotic doesn't make em any more legit. Sorry.
Gotta say, some science education, which you seem bent on critiquing at every corner, would ground you.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Again... the problem here seems to be the definition of God. What is it?
The difficulty,logically, is the notion of an individulaized, eternal consciousness that has the ability to empathize and interact directly and personally with our lives, I don't see the evidence for such a being.
On the other hand if you say god is simply a final term as in "energy is God as it is eternal and can neither be created nor destroyed" well, that I might buy.
God may be the primary metaphor in human language.
It is an idea engaged in by every culture and every historical period apparently back even to Neanderthal times. It's born out of an inherent human belief or affinity or desire for an existence, an action, a realm beyond the forms of sensibility.
Those that believe do so because of a deeply seated sense of the sublime in the face of a wildly engaging mystery that permeates our being. What are we? Who are we? Why are we? Why must we die?
The remarkable syncretism of all faiths, both east and west, mitigates against the reality of any individual belief system.
But the mystery stands. Our sense of the mystery, our lives, our loves, our hates seem to require the validation of ritual and belief, and our experience of life is so overwhelming that not believing in a “spiritual” realm can seem unimaginable.
To stand beneath the Sierra sky on a clear moonless night and contemplate our being is to confront directly this great mystery.
But to contain this mystery in the rigidity of some dogma simply demeans it, to name it contaminates it.
If to be overwhelmed by the mystery is to be “spiritual”, then I’m guilty.
But God does a poor job of revealing himself except through the syncretic texts of men which are increasingly read as historical realities rather than the metaphors they are.
My argument isn’t against the amorphous and ultimately indefinable notion of the spiritual, it’s against the extrapolation from that that forms the basis of all organized religions.
We find ourselves alive in this strange existence confronted with love and hate, beauty and horror, sorrow and happiness, and always near to us the anxiety of anticipation and the dread of our own inevitable annihilation.
As well, we find ourselves compelled by curiosity as to what we are, how we got here and what our lives mean, if anything.
We are overwhelmed by the sublime nature of the “mysterium tremendum et fascinans” and so demand, through a host of anthropomorphic deities, a reconciliation to our existential dilemma.
The very structure of our minds both forms and reflects our understanding and curiosity with regard to the natural world.
Reason is a product of the construction of our minds; our minds like our senses are the products of natural forces and an evolution that favors us as the survivors of a long struggle for viability. How is it that evolution would favor sensory perception that deceives us? Survival itself dictates the accuracy of our senses! Can’t we say the same for reason?
Reason, not unlike our sensory perception, is a natural mechanism that favors our success as inhabitants of this world. Why would we abandon it except as a path to reconcile ourselves to what we think we simply cannot abide?
And more to the point, why would a god give us a “reason” that so favors our success and yet so often stands vehemently against the faith many say he demands?
Nobody can, and nobody wants to, argue against a god that can be anything; certainly all possibilities are possible. What god might be or when and how god might function beyond being is a fascinating question but perhaps that fascination may elicit too easily the abandonment of reason for the pleasure, fascination and reconciliation allowed by faith.
Unfortunately the sleep of reason too often produces monsters.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Largo, you're climbing books are so clear. And yet... On these threads, I struggle to get you,
That's not his problem.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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No,
just his points were fairly obvious and not at all obtuse.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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so largo--i take it you know yourself and are empowered? that would make you the one person on this thread?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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So when does Zen and the Art of Climbing Anchors hit the shelves?
First there is extension,
Then there is no extension,
Then there is.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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"The last question is the only reasonable question to discuss." Not for those who bother enough to distinguish between them. God Jehovah is as fictitious as God Zeus or God Amon-Re.
Not distinguishing between the many and various god concepts is as useless as not distinguishing between workshop tools. How far does that get you?
Or perhaps even better: it is as useless as not distinguishing between knots. It points to ignorance. To distinguish them doesn't point to "arrogance" (the cry of those on the losing side), either, but to education, experience with that education.
Christians and Muslims call their God God. Don't let them. Reframe it. Their God is Jehovah. Among those who distinguish God concepts, who are read across many theologies, there is not so much useless argument, there is actually intelligent discourse.
The difference between Jehovah (the God of the ancient Hebrews and modern Jews, Muslims and Christians) and Diacrates (the hypothetical Intelligence physicists and others speculate about as a possibility) is as different as paper tiger and tiger.
Challenge yourselves. Get with it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Paul-
That was so well said, especially:
On the other hand if you say god is simply a final term as in "energy is God as it is eternal and can neither be created nor destroyed" well, that I might buy.
I may misunderstand Largo, but I think that is what he is trying to say when he describes the witness that remains when discursive thought is finished??
Both I believe, are trying to find the ultimate constant of the universe, the glue that holds it together. Of course this is very impersonal, which is what the non theistic religions of the East propose.
They are still confronted with the human experience of interacting with something that does seem to grant favors/understanding, has a sense of humor at times, teaches hard lessons, and comforts. The East deals with this by positing Boddhisattvas , angels, ancestral spirits and so on, (benevolent life in other dimensions) many of which are also familiar to western religion. Many modern people would maintain that these are simply mental projections of ourselves or Jung's "collective unconscious", something that could perhaps, be more easily explored.
In any case, we may be talking about two different phenomena, which might open up the possibilities for understanding more, or just confuse them further.
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WBraun
climber
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One can be just an observer in this thread.
Largo makes some statement.
Then all these clucking chickens start squawking in circles around the statement making no sense at all.
Knowing who you are is the first real step .....
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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do you think more people believe because they want to be better to each other and want an example, or do you think more people believe because they are afraid ? afraid of death, being alone, not belonging, burning in hell, etc...
honest question. i've met maybe three people that tell me they are trying to be better people, and all the rest bring up fear of hell first and foremost...
sorta sad, imho
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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The Koran was written by God too...
No, it wasn't...
It was written by Mohamad, as dictated to him by the angel Gabriel. Thus, they believe it is devinely inspired...
…And to be fair, it [Qur'an] is much more devinely inspired than the NT, as it was passed directly to Mohamad from God through Gabriel. The NT however, was written by many men, decades to over a century after the fact, then edited and revised numerous times. What books were written by actual 'eye witnesses' were not canonized, since they didn't fit the "Mythological Jesus" they wanted to center the religion on.
According to Muslim tradition, Mohammed was under the tutelage of the angel Gabriel and was bestowed with prescribed precepts…. but he wrote none of them down himself, the content being verbally memorized by his companions (sahaba) who could not read or write. The Qur’an did not exist in collected written form at Mohammed’s death in 632.
As sahaba gradually became literate, the Qu’ran was recorded on tablets, deerskin and other media….various versions existed. The third caliph Uthman ibn Affan ordered the preparation of an official, standardized version, about 650 CE….and other versions burned.
Most of the Quaranic text can be evidenced combining extant manuscript fragments from the first century after Mohammed’s death…the first complete version, more than two centuries after.... .
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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rrrADAM, your statement below is a half-truth.
"Ummm... If you look into it, most Biblical scholars agree that not a single book of the cannonized NT was written by a person who actually knew Jesus, or witnessed any of the events described in it persoanlly."
Mark, Matthew, and Luke were 'written' by people who knew and followed the three apostles closely, heard their stories and probably even helped them write, since they were very old men or had just died by the time they were written. John was written by himself and was an apostle.
And, of all the Gospels, John is the given the least credibility by scholars. As I said, many confuse "traditional" beliefs as historically accurate, but those beliefs were heavily influenced by the early church fathers, and todays Fundies have done a reall hatchet job on the history as of late. Biblical scholars do their best to objectively seperate fact from fiction, "history" from "tradition". There is a reason why a significant portion of theologions with post graduate degrees or higher are agnostics or atheists, as coupling disciplined objective thinking with an expertise in the subject matter leads many to see just how absurd it is.
You may wish to start with these guys:
http://www.westarinstitute.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
And, it appears you aren't familiar with the "Synoptic Problem", are you?
BTW... It is obvious that you read my reply(ies), that were information dense, with many points, but that you have ignored every point, only 'cherry picking' what you [confidently yet mistakenly] thought you could readily dismiss. How 'bout addressing ALL of the points?
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Sorry Dr. F, I forgot that you're in on it to. So, what medical training did you go through Dr. F or is that just a screen name? Not saying he has a PhD, but ANYONE with a PhD is a Dr... They don't have to be a medical doctor.
So, if someone get's a PhD in Theology, they too are a Dr.
Don't really understand how acedemia (higher education) works, do you?
Or was that just a weak ad hominem?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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I also think God created the earth and heavens over billions of years. "WHY" do you think that?
'Just because'?
See... That's the difference between science and faith, as in science we have to have a 'reason' to think something is valid, else it is just speculation.
And, they can articulate WHY they believe it. Now, can you even reasonably articulate WHY you believe that?
Ya know, Azimov wrote a nice little essay that is relevant here:
http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
To summarize:
Not so long ago, there was a group of scientists who were convinced that the world was flat... Given what they knew about the world, they even had arguments, as well as historical belief, to make the case for this.
There was also a group of scientists who though the world was a perfect sphere, and they too had arguments to make their case.
Well, as it turns out, neither is technically correct, since the world isn't flat, not is it a perfect sphere, but is instead more of an oblate sphere with bumps and dimples on it.
The point... One is certainly "more wrong" (or right) than the other. Yet, all too often people say or think, if it's all "theory" then they are all equal. Not true.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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...how religiously and theologically illiterate American pop culture is...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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According to Muslim tradition, Mohammed was under the tutelage of the angel Gabriel and was bestowed with prescribed precepts…. but he wrote none of them down himself, the content being verbally memorized by his companions (sahaba) who could not read or write. The Qur’an did not exist in collected written form at Mohammed’s death in 632.
As sahaba gradually became literate, the Qu’ran was recorded on tablets, deerskin and other media….various versions existed. The third caliph Uthman ibn Affan ordered the preparation of an official, standardized version, about 650 CE….and other versions burned.
Most of the Quaranic text can be evidenced combining extant manuscript fragments from the first century after Mohammed’s death…the first complete version, more than two centuries after.... .
I stand corrected, Thanx!
Source?
As I understand it, he did write much, and that is what was collected by his followers, and compiled after his death into the text.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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interesting notes on koranic scripture.
islam seems to inject a certain tone of sanity into monotheism, not that i'd ever be interested in pursuing it. i have had some acquaintances make their hejira from christianity to islam and feel quite at peace there. rather intelligent people too.
isn't it interesting that mohammed came along when he did, lived the life he did, had the supposed inspiration he had, and never saw the "light" of jesus?
also interesting that mohammed's grave is in medinah, and visiting it seems to be a fairly sober affair.
according to catholic tradition, jesus arose from the dead, and mary, their demigoddess, was "assumed" into heaven after her death. because of the terms of redemption, these are the only two people who have passed onto eternal life with their bodies.
but then we have elijah, taken directly into heaven on a chariot of fire. they don't talk about that much in catholic churches. later came ezekiel, who brought the beautiful youths killed by nabuchadnezzar back to life. but they got married, had kids, and died a second time.
it sure is nice up in the sierra. all these ancient headaches are so easily forgotten.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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The reason Islam and Christianity is so prominent in our history is because those religions were developing the same time as our written language, so they were the first major religion to be spread around to masses via written form Judaism was one of the first "written" religions. Writing appeared in Egypt and Mesopotamia well before 2,000 BCE, long before Christianism or Islamism. The Phoenician alphabet began to appear about 1,000 BCE, which is to say at about the same time as a nomadic people identifiably Hebrew showed up in nearby Palestine, and eventually adapted the alphabet for their own use. Interestingly, that also coincided with the appearance of the idea of human history.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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"Why do so many people believe in God?"
Because we "ought" (the least we can do) to. Look what he did for us!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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On one such night, I read the story of the Good Samaritan. In my mind, I became the "Good Samaritan." Most sermons I have heard about this text makes the main application be that "we shouldn't be like the Levite or the priest who passed by the wounded man without helping him. We should be like the Good Samaritan."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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However, God showed me that this is not the meaning of the story. Jesus was teaching us about Himself. The main lesson isn't that we are to help the pitiful, helpless man - it's that we are the pitiful, helpless man! Jesus is the Good Samaritan who found us after legalism and religion didn't lift a finger to help us.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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Another time, I read the passage in Matthew 13:4, where the Bible says, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field".
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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As I began to meditate on this passage, and become the "hero" as the man who finds the hidden treasure. I have heard it preached as a soulwinning sermon. We are to go out searching for hidden treasure. But God, again, gave me insight.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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In this parable, Jesus told the man sold everything he had to buy the field so that he could have the treasure. We certainly can't pay anything to receive Jesus Christ, or to help someone else receive Jesus Christ.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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Quite the opposite is happening here! He, Jesus Christ, paid everything so that He could have us. Again, it is Jesus who is the hero in the story. He did not just see a waste land, a deserted, left for ruin fallen human race. No! He saw, amidst the snakes, and spiders, weeds, thorns, thistles, and ruin, a people he wanted to redeem. Praise God he saw us worthy enough to die for!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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I cannot think of better news for the alcoholic, the drug addict, and even self-righteous church member! God looked on us as sinners, and thought it a worthy cause to "buy" or "redeem" us back to Him. I love that old song even more, "Redeemed how I love to proclaim it, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb...
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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Most recently, I read about the pearl of great price described in Matthew 13:45-46,"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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How many times have you heard Jesus described as the Pearl of great price? But, no, He's not the pearl in this story - you are! The Hero here is the One who paid everything so that He could "purchase [us] with His own blood" (Acts 20:28). He is the One Who gave everything. He is the Hero!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:41am PT
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I've said before, "It's not about you" and me. It never has been and it never will be. It's all about Him!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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However, since we always look for the "hero" in the story, let's consider this - may the resurrected power of Christ enable us to stop making ourselves the main character in the "divine drama"!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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Babies think everything is all about them, but with maturity comes a true understanding.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:43am PT
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The story is "His" story and He has the leading role. We are simply the recipients or beneficiaries of His wonderful love and grace.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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Is He your Hero?? Have you told Him so?? Jesus....did You ever know that You're my Hero??
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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Have a wonderful day IN the Lord!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:27am PT
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"so largo--i take it you know yourself and are empowered? that would make you the one person on this thread?"
I've said all along that God is not a thing. Neither are we. When you mistake your conditioned, evolved ego for who you are, or think when you know your ego, you know yourself, you are suffering from a case of mistaken identity. Your true self is unborn.
The reason this makes little to no sense to some here is that it doesn't fit into the any of the existing boxes they have in their head, and perhaps they are not willing to think outside of said boxes.
That much said, none of this stuff is easy - at least not for me. I work on it all the time and it's still very illusive.
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 07:55am PT
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ID gets the cigar for most-posts-in-a-row, but i generally stop reading after #2. he's a compulsive soul-saver and a little scary.
this is just an incipient thread. we've got a long way to go to "why are those republicans so wrong on everything?" (22,080) and even "what song are you listening to right now?" (4,269). wonder if this subject has real legs.
bookworm: mother theresa was a bit of a phony in my book. it'll be interesting to see what the devil's advocate comes up with if they try to make a saint out of her. somehow, she just didn't have the warmth about her that you'd expect of something called love. neither, for that matter, does ID up there.
i wrote a little poem about ms. theresa some years back when she visited los angeles and roger mahoney was still just an archbishop:
mother theresa the living saint,
came to town, to those who ain't,
mugged with the archbishop and told the boys in the barrio:
jesus loves the children.
too innocent to see how she is used,
saints after all aren't supposed to be shrewd,
mother theresa opens the door:
we couldn't have saints if we didn't have poor.
the faithful kneel in eternal hope
try, try again, but never to cope
they all know birth control is a sin
life isn't a game you're supposed to win
after all, jesus didn't.
out of the yard and into the street
faces grow longer, growing punk beards,
looking like children less and i guess
that jesus must love them less and less
as they get laid, get high, get knifed.
mother theresa, when some god
comes down from heaven and takes off his pants
and f*#ks like the rest of us, then i'll believe
that god really became a man.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 07:57am PT
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haha--ST doesn't let the f-word come through there, even for literary purposes. i tried!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jun 10, 2010 - 08:09am PT
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observation of and inclusion within your sustaining environment requires no leap of faith.
the jesus story, though, puts a noose around your neck and then beckons you off the precipice of earned wisdom.
jump. jump. you can do it.
because your's requires nothin of substance or significance.
it only requires stupidity and an unwillingness to see.
as ya'll dangle over there where foolishness abounds, and hope is pretend,
it is no wonder you scream back across the threshold of treason, begging for followers.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:44am PT
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How to talk to complete idiots / Three basic options. Choose wisely, lest you go totally insane
September 25, 2009|By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
There are three basic ways to talk to complete idiots.
The first is to assail them with facts, truths, scientific data, the commonsensical obviousness of it all. You do this in the very reasonable expectation that it will nudge them away from the ledge of their more ridiculous and paranoid misconceptions because, well, they're facts, after all, and who can dispute those?
Why, idiots can, that's who. It is exactly this sort of logical, levelheaded appeal to reason and mental acuity that's doomed to fail, simply because in the idiotosphere, facts are lies and truth is always dubious, whereas hysteria and alarmism resulting in mysterious undercarriage rashes are the only things to be relied upon.
. . . http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-09-25/entertainment/17118073_1_fundamentalist-health-care-complete-idiots
Again...
"Those that have convictions that are not arrived at by reason can not be unconvinced by reason."
~Unknown
"In situations that matter, mythologies are immensely powerful things, and sometimes we humans go to enormous lengths to see the world as we think it should be, even when the evidence says we are mistaken."
~Robert Laughlin
Or...
"Faith is antithetical to reason."
~Ayn Rand
"...the truth emerges only when all ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside."
~Johannes Kepler
"Even Newton and Einstein were profoundly wrong about things they felt strongly about."
~Lee Smolin
See the theme here? Beliefs that appeal to emotion and desire ("woo") can profoundly affect one's reason. It's leads to confirmation bias.
Confidence should be directly proportional to reason and evidence, not inversely proportional as it is in many of the faithful. (I.e., profoundly believe in things that aren't supported by the evidence and/or reason, and at the same time confidently believe that things that are supported by mountains of evidence and reason are wrong.)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:22am PT
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In the end, if someone is determined to jump off the cliff with all the others, and your arguments regarding the consequences are rejected, you just have to stand back and let them jump...
I understand that statement works equally well from both points of view.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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That much said, none of this stuff is easy - at least not for me. I work on it all the time and it's still very illusive.
Largo, is that really what you meant? Or did you mean elusive?... in which case it's kind of a funny Freudian slip.
--
No, Dell, I mean that the whole thing can very easily take the course of an illusion unless you keep boring in and detaching from the content, moving from foreground to field, as they say, from facts and figures to context. Our brains have evolved to lock onto stuff and grind on it. Not easy to step away from this process - and unless you can step away from the noisy room once in a while, you'll never know there's more outside, and will swear it's all inside the room (Plato's Cave), or doesn't "exist."
JL
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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In the end, if someone is determined to jump off the cliff with all the others, and your arguments regarding the consequences are rejected, you just have to stand back and let them jump...
I understand that statement works equally well from both points of view. Agreed.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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As to the original question:
Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)
Simply put, IMO, because they are "taught" to believe by people they trust, it makes people "feel" good, gives many "hope", and more importantly, makes many confidently believe that they have some control over the outcome of things that are really outside of their control... That their God will intervene on their behalf, and alter or influence their destiny for the better. (E.g., love, health, happiness, death, job, ...) No different, for example, than a pitcher who wears the same underwear during a winning streak because he believes that if he doesn't he may "jinx" it.
"When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer, superstition ain't the way"
~Stevie Wonder
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 10, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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rrrAdam, I just ready the article you linked to. Thank you!
Very good and concise, well written as to how to understand the mentality of IDIOTS.
Thank you very much for showing the link.xx
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 10, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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Thanx for the link, WC... Gonna post that elsewhere.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 10, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Dr. F.-
Believe it or not, some people actually question the views they received in childhood from family, teachers, and friends. Sometimes they come to different conclusions in both directions. Sometimes they start out doing it just for teenage rebellion. For whatever reason, it happens and people do actually change their minds about information they've been given.
Some become atheists, others find religion. A few have experiences that completely alter their world view, then re-evaluate their lives and start on a different course. Fortunately life is not so predetermined nor rational as you seem to want to believe. That's what makes it interesting if you keep a truly open mind.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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The fact that you can use "soul saver" in a sentence without discrediting it is progress Tony. Good for you. Keep "working on it".
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
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Remember Tony, every Friday night at 7pm, for the whole family! And no, it's not a "scary" place to be on a Friday night.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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"Some become atheists, others find religion." - Jan
Even others find God.
Thank you Lord for saving my soul.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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ID seems to be developing RDS - repetitious poster syndrome.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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And I'm wearing my helmet and my shouldermapads!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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I've been in those shoes that don't believe. The bottom line for me is, if God turns out to be in the imaginations of men then I'll never know it for when I die, I'll be dead, and that'll be it, back to worm food I go.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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But, if the opposite is true, that there is a God, and I meet Him at the judgement seat, I'm safe from eternal misery. For me, that was an easy decision.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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How would someone discover God on their own
If you were born, and raised without God
and God was never spoke of
You would never even question the existence of God
You would just know that there is no God,
just as the people that have been brainwashed to believe in God, they know nothing else but God
Poor argument. If you believe that God doesn't exist and wasn't involved from the beginning, then basic reasoning would say that at some point, some human looked around and even though he or she had never heard of God, created the idea of God. That makes this statement...
You would never even question the existence of God
You would just know that there is no God,
False. It happened at least once.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
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No other "God" makes the claim:
"16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Wow, now that's putting your reputation on the line!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 10, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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Stephen Hawking, known for his groundbreaking work in physics, told Diane Sawyer that when it comes to reconciling science and religion, there is only one outcome: "science will win because it works." He also elaborated on his views about God.
"What could define God [is thinking of God] as the embodiment of the laws of nature. However, this is not what most people would think of that God," Hawking told Sawyer. "They made a human-like being with whom one can have a personal relationship. When you look at the vast size of the universe and how insignificant an accidental human life is in it, that seems most impossible."
When Sawyer asked if there was a way to reconcile religion and science, Hawking said, "There is a fundamental difference between religion, which is based on authority, [and] science, which is based on observation and reason. Science will win because it works."
ww.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/10/stephen-hawking-on-religi_n_607753.html
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
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There is so much more to it Dr. F., and I will be forever learning, and thanks for asking an honest question without anger or vindication...
First, Jesus was God in the flesh for if God revealed Himself on this earth, we wouldn't be alive, "20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." - Exodus 33:20
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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According to Augustine, the only thing that differentiates Christianity from every other religion is that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."
Dr. F. is right. All Christians acknowledge that Jesus died and was buried. What Christians believe, though, that Dr. F. doesn't, is that He rose from the dead and is alive. That was always the basis of our faith. Look at 1 Cor. 15. The statement was that Jesus rose, and we saw Him. It is the testimony of witnesses.
Those who want to contradict Christianity cannot do it with logic alone, but with personal experience, i.e. "Well, we haven't seen Him, nor have seen seen anyone perform any of the 'miracles' alleged." If you add "Therefore He is still dead, and the miracles didn't happen" you get the gist of Dr. F's argument. The problem is with the "therefore;" It's a non-sequitur. I didn't see Robbins, Gallwas and Sherrick on the Half Dome RNF, but that doesn't prove that they didn't make the FA.
I'll reiterate what I said much earlier in this thread: I believe in God because I know Jesus through the Holy Spirit. I know what I experienced. You can choose to believe or disbelieve me, but mere logic isn't enough.
John
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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In a nutshell (from that article)...
"So God clothed himself in flesh, becoming the God-man, Jesus, to take back the right to the Tree of Life. The curse of sin, the thorns, He wore on His head, as He became a curse for us by hanging on a tree (the cross). The Just took the punishment for the unjust. Because He did this for us, God the Father gave His only Son a place above all. Philippians 2:6-11, Colossians 2:13-15"
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
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Phew! Glory to God for you John!
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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Jun 10, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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Use ANYTHING but the bible to prove the bible... go!!!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 10, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Safe from "eternal damnation"
What an incredibly childish notion.
Only seven more months until Santa comes down your chimney.
Isn't it time you put aside your childhood and grew up?
Are visions of sugar plums still dancing in your head?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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Do you need 100% proof to believe? You put your faith in things everyday without asking for proof no?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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This man Paul, once Saul, shares his account of the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the book of 1 Corinthians. He puts his reputation on the line by doing so, which, in his time, subjected himself to a lot of danger. Listen to what he says:
"12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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God doesn't promise foolishness, as a matter of fact, He promises "everlasting life".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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Eternal Damnation, my ass.
What a 6th century, flat earth society, ignorant concept for an adult to say they believe in.
That's right, tell your four year olds they will burn in hell for eternity if they do something really bad.
Scare the crap out of them, you fuking terrorists.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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Last I checked (looks up) what we are talking about is: "Why do so many people believe in God?"
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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did you sell the Ryobi yet?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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Because they cannot stand the truth that there is no afterlife.
Because they were told to believe in the guy in the sky as children, and still do.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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This is really getting repetitive.The theists get their comfort from their cherished stories about never dying, the atheists snort derisively and are fine with eventually becoming dust again. And on and on it goes.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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You're in my prayers Norton...On the subject of a "flat earth", the Bible stated that the earth was round way before the Middle Ages...
"22It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;" Isaiah 40:22
Edit: By the way, the Hebrew language at that time did not have a word for "sphere," only for "circle."
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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How about Darwin...
"Darwin wrote in his book, Origin Of The Species, "Why, if species have descended from other species by fine graduation, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion, instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?"
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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Genesis chapter one states 10 times that life forms can only reproduce after their own kind (ape to ape, man to man).
All the observable facts of science strongly support the Bible's claim that it is impossible for one kind to reproduce a different kind. The truth is, there is absolutely no tangible evidence to support evolution from any area of science, just theory and a wild imagination!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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6 DAY CREATION...
GOD WAS TAKING HIS TIME If a fair maiden kisses a frog which instantly changes into a handsome prince, we would call it a fairy tale. But if the change takes 40 million years, we call it evolution. We often hear that science has proved evolution. Nothing could be further from the truth. You see, people often confuse scientific fact with scientific theory. Current scientific theory does conflict with creation. But the facts of science do not! There are many scientists who fully accept Biblical creation. Surprised?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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you're the one that's scary, ID. stay away from mirrors. when you die, i'll bet god will have a special job for you. ever see beetlejuice? you'll be the one selling used cars. keep blabbering away. the next sale is right around the corner.
i'd like to thank dr. F for being so stalwart. most people try to consider others' opinions and maybe find some smidgen of common ground. this guy's as stubborn as a born-again christian, and it creates welcome balance here.
i think hawking was wrong to say that all religion is based on authority. probably he never got exposed to much beyond the church of england. there's lots of good religion out there. i think largo got into some. it has to do with you, A#1, your experience, your perspective, your life. it may have philosophy, it may have mysticism, practice, whatever. but it isn't disruptive. christianity is unabashedly disruptive.
i mentioned it on that old evolution thread which everyone abandoned, but it bears repeating. the latest science seems to have made the universe quite a bit lonelier. the evolution of life--of course, as we know it, but we know a lot--is the result of a fairly narrow set of circumstances, to the point where it would not be unreasonable to suggest that there's only maybe one life planet per galaxy. lots of science goes into this, and i'm not going to argue it here, but it does seem to be a building consensus. so maybe another galaxy has a life planet--really far off, not much chance of travel and visit. worth thinking about among all the pro- and con- god arguments.
eleasarian--my argument against christianity is its failure. i think it has failed the human race and isn't worth the obsessing it gets. i like to use jesus's own words on this one: "by their works you shall know them." by such standards, christianity delivers tons of hypocrisy and none of the caring lovey-poo that jesus seems to stand for. let's recognize what we all have in common on this planet and make that our priority. christianity is a real distraction from the common interests of humanity. not that it's the only one.
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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The burden of proof fall on the faithful to bring us evidence of their god. When the say prove he doesnt exist they ask us to adopt a fools folly as you cannot disprove something so intangible. As soon as evidence comes you dont like you simply say "he doesnt act in that way" or some such baloney. It is like trying to hit a moving target... where a new one is presented as the "real target" when you do succeed.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 10, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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A little sick of people spouting Bible verses as proof.
How about these:
Exodus 21:1-11 Selling your daughter as a sex slave.
Judges 11:24-40 Condoning child abuse
Hosea 13:16 Bashing babies against rocks.
Matthew 19::12 ASV Jesus talking about castration as a way to get into heaven.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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^^^^ LOL ^^^^
Holy sh'it!!! YOWAZ ...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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So, John, if you're constantly flirting with illusions how can you be sure that what you "see" is real? Is it possible you're just fooling yourself? The easiest person to fool is oneself.
-----
What I "see" or sense via my sense aperati is "stuff" and I assume it is real in the sense that it has some material heft or substance that I can measure and evaluate. The illusion that we often flirt with is that these substances are themselves "God," or that things have some spiritual "substance" and so forth. Like I said, it's easy to get caught up in the things (foreground) and fool yourself. Jumping into the void is a different deal, as I trust you can appreciate.
You keep out of illusion by staying around people who are also attempting the same thing and getting feedback and staying on course. You never arrive.
JL
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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Your last paragraph, Tony, is gold.
Thanks for saying it so pointedly and concisely.
Faith, or the lack of it, is the most divisive issue facing our species today; no matter what camp you're in.
If Jesus saves, then he'd better save himself.
"In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him.
And Man gave unto God a multitude of names,that he might be Lord of all
the earth when it was suited to Man.
And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good. And Man formed Aqualung of the dust of the ground, and a host of others likened unto his kind.
And these lesser men were cast into the void; And some were burned, and some were put apart from their kind.
And Man became the God that he had created and with his miracles did
rule over all the earth. But as all these things came to pass, the Spirit that did cause man to create his God lived on within all men: even within Aqualung.
And man saw it not.
But for Christ's sake he'd better start looking.
We had better learn that "we" are "Aqualung".
Tony
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
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Donini- Thank you for serving as a reality-based science-respecting counterpoint to the woo woo mysticism of the others. You're constantly a breath of fresh air, restoring my faith that some fraction of climbers are not complete idiots when it comes to understanding religions (their character and history) vis a vis sciences. Much appreciated.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
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I think the problem with this thread is that the main antagonists are both extrapolating from their own experience and missing the larger view. No one calling themselves a scientist can make statements using the words" all, without a doubt, absolutely", and so on. Science is much more tentative and nuanced than that. Science is aware that the more we discover, the more remains to be known and invariably our understanding becomes more complex and more subtle. It refers to theories and current working models, not absolutes.
Likewise, true religion and spirituality emphasize the mystery of everything in the universe, including God, and the idea that humankind should be humble in the face of it. It also universally emphasizes that the major problem of humanity is lack of love or compassion, not lack of clever logic to justify its own selfish viewpoints. Anybody who proclaims they know what God is thinking or how "He" does things, is just speculating based on ego. Anyone taking Scriptures about love, sacrifice, and service and using them to proclaim that they are "saved" and all others are going to burn in hell, is for sure, not being humble or loving. Anyone studying the history of Christianity will know that such interpretation of Christian Scripture is a very recent phenomenon and belongs to a very narrow though vocal contingent mostly centered in America.
Both science and religion have been used for evil purposes, both have done great good for humankind. To deny otherwise, is to see the world through a very narrow and distorted prism. It was people inspired by religion who ended slavery in our country, not scientists. It was scientists who invented the Social Darwinism and eugenics that were used in the Holocaust. The issue is human potential, and what one does with it. So far, U.S. charities gives more generously than those of any other nation, and religious organizations give the most, not scientists. So think a little if you call yourself a scientist, before you condemn all religion based on the narrow doctrine of a vocal minority.
And to the vocal minority, I will say again, not every convicted Christian agrees with your interpretation, let alone the vast majority of religious people on this planet who are not Christian. Enlarge your viewpoint by enlarging your heart.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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"It was people inspired by religion who ended slavery in our country, not scientists. It was scientists who invented the Social Darwinism and eugenics that were used in the Holocaust."
Bullsh#t.
This is exactly one of the lead problems with religious "moderates."
Try leaving the religious scholarship, the seminary teachings, whatever, behind and try reframing it once in awhile:
It was good people- caring and determined people- working together to overcome a horrible institution that ended slavery.
Science and the knowledge gleaned from it are tools. It was abuse of a tool that was used in the Holocaust.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 10, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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You have a fair criticism if you argue that both all Christians and the Chrisitan Church (universal or otherwise) have flaws. I think ,though, you reduce Jesus to less than what He said He was. I seriously doubt that His enemies wanted to crucify Him because he said to love one another. His denunciations of the Jewish religious leaders were scathing. The Gospels don't contain all that much "nicey-poo."
Jesus's message is good news only to those who realize they are sinners. It remains an affront to those who think themselves righteous. I wonder how many contemporaries who purport to be Christians realize how hypocritical we've become. It's almost as if we think that if we become the second coming of the Pharisees, we'll hasten the second coming of Christ.
For my first 23 years, I disbelieved, considered Jesus a legend at best, and Christianity largely primitive myth. It wasn't that I'd never heard the message. Rather, my faith in myself was so strong it blinded my eyes and shut my ears. Besides, Christians were all such hypocrites. Then I met Jesus through the Holy Spirit, and found for myself who I was missing. I also met a lot of good people -- and a lot of changed people. I guess our experiences differ.
John
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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High Fructose-
It was religious dissenters who started the antislavery movement in America, with Quakers at the forefront. if you study their history you will see that three generations of Quakers made it their mission in life to end that institution and many bankrupted themselves in the process to run the underground railway, to defend freed slaves in court cases and to establish schools for freed slaves. The millions of union volunteers before the Civil War draft saw it as a holy crusade to wipe the stain of slavery from a supposedly Christian nation. Many were antislavery but the people who put their lives and fortunes on the line, were mostly religious. The others, including Lincoln, jumped on the band wagon rather late.
As for the Holocaust, all those who contributed to the notion of racial superiority and inferiority based on "scientific" measurements and this includes many physical anthropologists, were mis using their tools and also their limited understanding of science. Some scientists are still doing it. Consider the case of Arthur Jenson.
You say "Science and the knowledge gleaned from it are tools.It was abuse of a tool that was used in the Holocaust". I could say the same about religion. It was abuse of a tool (the piety and also the greed of ignorant peasants) that led to crusades and witch burnings.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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As seriously as I've cross-studied the sciences, I've cross-studied religious systems my entire life. Including their character and history. Enough study. It's time they're left behind. Like astrology, they will be, in the wake of new developments, just give it two or three generations in a robust internet-driven info age that isn't beset by collapsing economies, population pressures, depleting resources, etc., you'll see.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 10, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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The "scientists" who promoted racial differences and notions of superiority and inferiority, were mistaken and led others down a wrong path. They were mistaken because they saw what they wanted to. They then put their measuring devices in the service of their ethnocentric egos and called it "science".
Darwin himself was not exempt. During the voyage of the Beagle, there was a group of natives from Tierra del Fuego who were being returned from London after being on exhibet there and Darwin made the statement (in writing) that they had no human language, only spoke in grunts and howls. Of course the grammar of their language, like most Native American languages is more complex by far than English.
All human beings are subject to ethno and ego centrism. Both religion and science (not to mention politics) are used as tools in service to our baser nature.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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You are mistaken to think that religion never changes.
The Bible justifies slavery yet religious people of the 19th century knew that it was wrong. That's progress.
To condemn the majority of people on this planet because they have different views on the subject of God and religion than you do, is definitely not scientific nor compassionate.
For sure, labeling all Christians and all religious people based on experience with the most narrow interpreters of religion is also not scientific nor compassionate.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Jan, truths don't change. Politicians are adept at spining things to produce a certain outcome. The Mormons "suddenly" decided that polygamy was wrong when they wanted statehood. Could the posistion on slavery be similar? Christians seem to want to use the Bible in anyway that suits there
interests, be it strict interpretation or using the Bible allegorically.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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The Gospels don't contain all that much "nicey-poo." Yes, the Torah (old testament) particularly is full of the Hebrews squabbling with and lecturing each other, when they weren't smiting their neighbours and stealing their lands, cattle, and maidens.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:33am PT
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"flaws" is the great excuse christians always use, a real false humility through which they hope to escape responsibility. face it, christianity is the dominant religion in the world behind the dominant power in the world. that power has grown quite ugly, and yet it refuses to acknowledge what it does. rather it keeps its innocent myth before its eyes.
jesus is a fine program for those who like it. i wish them all well. i just wish they would become meek. instead, they think they've inherited the earth already before bothering to become meek.
since the subject of the so-called holocaust has been raised, i have to say what i have learned. i've looked at the so-called "denial" material, and i think there is some merit to it. i'm not an expert on the subject, but i see both passionate scholars like robert faurisson of france and individual investigators, like the young jewish atheist from england who found some strange covering up going on at auschwitz. napoleon said that history is always written by the victors, and i suspect there may be a good share of that going on here. i speak as a product of world war 2. my mother and uncle were both involved in the italian resistance, my father was an american army lawyer involved in criminal investigation throughout the mediterrenean war theater. i personally know of german atrocities from my family, but they were war atrocities, not unlike those committed by our own country many times in my lifetime. two things darken these suspicions considerably. dissenters in europe are jailed merely for voicing their opinions. and records, according to faurisson, which would prove or disprove so much of the controversies, are kept under lock and key. my suggestion: don't look to hitler alone for the incarnation of evil. our ally, country joe, was worse, and there is new evidence that general "i like ike" eisenhower may have been quite the war criminal himself.
i call tell you one thing for sure about the "holocaust", however. the term didn't come into use for world war 2 atrocities until 1978-79, following a television docudrama series by that name. since then, it has taken on deep purple fervor. ironically, the term itself is kind of a testimony to the spirit of thrift. when you went to the temple to sacrifice something to god--a goat, a lamb, a dove for those who couldn't afford so much--the animal would be killed and offered to god, but the meat would be taken home, after the priest got his share, of course. but if you really wanted to make a big impression on god for something important, you burned it and let the smoke waft heavenward. here, god, take the whole pigeon, just get that rich man to marry my daughter, k? holocaust = burn the whole thing.
getting too long here, but the business of sacrifice is central to christianity, and it seems to be pan-human in our ancient heritage. sacrifice reflects human fascination with death and the threshold beyond death, and hope for contact with the divine. jesus is only one of many attempts to touch god in this way.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:24am PT
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Donini-
I don't disagree that religious people sometimes have changes of heart for reasons of political expediency. I can guarantee you however, that my Quaker ancestors suffered plenty from their non Quaker neighbors in North Carolina who quoted the Bible's advocacy of slavery to them while attacking their lives and property. The Quakers for sure, did not profit economically or politically from being antislavery.
The main thing I object to however, are gross generalizations from any quarter. Imagine how you would feel if someone started throwing around the phrase "All climbers believe such and such and all climbers act thus and so"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:29am PT
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Tony-
I think you are on very treacherous ground when talking about Holocaust deniers just as I never believe the Japanese right wing who claims the rape of Nanjing and other war atrocities never happened.
What should be known however, is that many categories of "undesirable" people died in those camps, not just Jews. Gays, Gypsies, and the few Christians who spoke out against Hitler and anti-Semitism also died there.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:36am PT
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I agree with Jan. Saying that Joseph Stalin killed more people than Adolf Hitler, and was guilty of as great or greater evil, is one thing. Saying that the Allies' and their leaders' hands were not lily white when it came to war crimes likewise. And the Shoah/Holocaust of European Jewry during World War II must be seen in context.
But lending any credence to Holocaust-deniers has no place, here or anywhere.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 04:19am PT
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High Fructose: "... the woo woo mysticism of the others."
Kindly describe "wo wo mysticism." Sounds a little like a punk band or a slab climb at Suicide. That's some funny shite.
JL
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 04:35am PT
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Why, when the Word of God is used to answer a question or to defend the same do others become offended and feel personally attacked or claim that someone is hypocritical or making claims based on their own thinking? You see, this is why God's Word is used so our "stinkin' thinkin'" doesn't get in the way and second, so others can't accuse us of making our own statements, thus implying anything. If God's word makes you feel this way then attack God. I know it comes with the territory but hey, we're just messengers spreading the Word, not our own word, whenever possible.
The original question was, "Why do so many people believe in God?" Shall we get back on subject?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 05:11am PT
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Listen, have I not been transparent with you all? Shared with you some of my personal demons, my struggles of my past, my prior line of work and my current status? Am I the only one struggling out there or what? Please, don't start sharing your testimonies for this isn't my point. What I'm trying to say is that I feel that God's intent through me is being misconstrued when I hear the angry responses from the non-believer. "Prove to me this, prove to me that, give me this, give me that" It's not about you! Do you realize it's THIS very "behavior" that gets you/me in the very problems we tend to get ourselves into?
"For ALL that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world" - 1John2:16
If only more would listen.
I'm no different than you all in what I'm enjoying or struggling with in this world. I'm just trying to live my life under God's umbrella of protection as opposed to the world's and trying to obey God's commands. I've found the Truth. There can only be one, and I've found it.
Glory to God!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 11, 2010 - 07:00am PT
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DMT-
Mennonites, Zippers, Cleopatra. Huh?
The Amish and some Mennonites don't wear zippers because they were first used on military uniforms and they are strict pacifists.
This may seem a bit much for some people but it's consistent with their philosophy of non violence.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 08:30am PT
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here you go, jan, from largo, and it will come up again:
"in psychology, there is a thing called 'information bias.' we filter out whatever does not conform to what we think is the truth ... we literally will not consider or be open to contrary information, or else we will alter its value or definition so as not to threaten our preconceived notions or given criteria."--John Long
have you looked at any of the evidence? read anything by faurisson? please do so before you talk about my shaky ground.
i do have some independent confirmation of my skepticism, and that is personal acquaintance with an auschwitz survivor. you can google his name, it's fred klein, and i knew him for several years when i worked at berlitz translations in the late 80s and early 90s. fred was a likable fellow, not the brightest of that well-lighted crew exactly, but he seemed to be coming into his own with the growing holocaust industry. the thing was, he went through auschwitz and had no real knowledge of the gassing which allegedly took place. if you read his internet material, it will confirm that. he was eager to become part of the story he heard much later. he revelled in the new-found respect he was getting. the best he can do is talk about the crematories, but lots of people were dying of typhus, in and out of the concentration camps.
btw, check the evidence on eisenhower. he is alleged to have ordered the slow death by starvation and exposure of a million german soldier prisoners of war after the war. this makes great sense in the making of war, where all is fair. you don't try governing a nation full of freshly defeated soldiers, especially nazi soldiers. is it true? all i know is what i read on the internet. about eisenhower, that is. for my other maniac ideas i have been reading, inquiring, researching as much as i can. truth is the most important thing in the world, and it doesn't come easily.
shall we bring up 9/11 while we're at it? largo here will be on your side, dismissing it as "jibberish", but his process theology professor, david ray griffin, can't stop writing books about it. let me repeat:
"in psychology, there is a thing called 'information bias.' we filter out whatever does not conform to what we think is the truth ... we literally will not consider or be open to contrary information, or else we will alter its value or definition so as not to threaten our preconceived notions or given criteria."
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 09:22am PT
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i do have to add a personal note to all this. i think personal notes mean a lot more on this thread than all the blank assertions.
six years ago i had just got done campaigning for dennis kucinich, one of the seven dwarf democrats in the presidential campaign that year. my way of thinking about all these dark subjects was pretty standard, like jan's and the mighty hiker's here.
the one thing i probably have a little more than most on this thread is experience in building construction. i've spent maybe 30 percent of my working career doing that, and it includes a couple of high-rise projects. so on september 11, 2001, when i watched buildings coming down on the evening news, my first reaction was, i can't believe my eyes, these buildings should not be falling this way. my second reaction was, what do i know? the world is totally absurd anyway, so get over it.
and i got over it, for about three years, and then i heard two words on a subversive KPFK radiocast (the host, their then news director, was fired shortly afterward): controlled demolition.
presidential politics got a lot less important after that. john muir talked about everything in the universe being hitched to everything else. unfortunately, it isn't always the good things.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 11, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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"The Word of God" is not really a circular argument vis a vis Charles Manson since said "Word" is the work of humans.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:24am PT
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Drifting, but just to set the record straight, the "word" of the Beatles was LOVE. I don't thnk Manson had this in mind that August night in 1969.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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"no more gaps, no more missing pieces"
Now we know 100% for sure you're talking out of your ass .....
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:52am PT
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But, if the opposite is true, that there is a God, and I meet Him at the judgement seat, I'm safe from eternal misery. For me, that was an easy decision. See, what you fail to see, due to being stuck INSIDE your box of dogma is this...
Every religion, past and present, is 'confident' that they have the right God, and that all other gods are wrong... Youself included.
The same reasons that you so confidently dismiss all other Gods, or even other Christians for not believing "correctly" (E.g., Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, Jews, etc.), is the same reason why so many dismiss your belief.
Seriosuly here... What reasons do you have for believing you are correct, and all others are wrong? Now, note that the 'reasons' you come up with, are the many of the same reasons all of the others confidently believe they are right, and you are wrong.
So... Since you believe in the same God that Jesus did - The God of the Jews. What makes you think that he won't tell you you've had you head up your a*# by not living up to his laws, as laid down BY HIM, and casts you to hell?
Remember, according to Matthew, Jesus himself said:
'I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses the experts in The Law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.'
(Matthew 5:20)
Pretty clear there, as he taught and lived by God's Law, as per the OT.
You however, believe that none of that matters now... That your God made laws that he either knew or didn't know (hmmm, makes you think, huh?) we wouldn't be able to follow... Doomed millions to Hell, until he decided thousands of years later to send himself to die to appease his own laws?
Yea... Makes perfect sense.
Also remember, that acording to the OT, we could already repent and be forgivin, so no need for Jesus to die so we could be forgivin. Do you need an atheist to show you where, or are you familiar with your own Bible enough to find it?
I bet not... Cause even that doesn't fit into your little box of dogma.
To close... "If there is a God..."
He certainly wouldn't be even remotely close to what you believe.
Now... I probably wasted time composing this reply to you, as I'm sure to you, when you read it all you hear are the muted trombones that the Peanuts characters hear when adults talk:
wha, whaaa... wha, wha, wha, whaaaaa...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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No other "God" makes the claim:
"16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Wow, now that's putting your reputation on the line!
Read it carfully, as neither God nor Jesus made that claim... The author did. If God made the claim he would have said "I", not "God" or "Son".
The glasses that you wear to read and interpret do not allow you to fucus well, thus your reasoning skills are seriously flawed.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Dr F -- "My answer to the question is simply "no purpose, other than the purpose of any other living thing on earth, live, procreate and die"
So you just created another religion.
Although you can't even see that you're doing that.
You're answer is worthless too .....
since you ULTIMATELY don't know.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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Hey rrrADAM, what about all those people who work with "God as you understand him." Ever thought about the really far out implications of what that means, or the effectiveness of the "group conscious," or "God does for you what you cannot do for yourself."
My take on this is - not standard by any means - is that things might be a lot more fluid and mysterious than we can ever imagine. That is, our consciousness or power of choice does not "create" God anymore than the brain "produces" consciousnsess, but that we subtly influence the outcomes in our life by where our mind is at in terms of our beliefs and so forth. If we believe there is no God, than we reap the psychological harvest of believing as such. Being infinite, the universe will support, in subtle ways, whatever we bring into being by way of consciousness. We are not sourcing the results, per se, meaning we are not creating out of noting, but if we decide to go into a hardware store, so to speak, we will find what there is kept in a hardware store. If I choose an atheist position, I will experience what that position carries with it, as opposed to my brain sourcing the content of that position.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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Yes .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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Dr. F said: "So yes, there is a something that attaches to your brain when you maintain a belief in God, kind of like a parasite, that sucks the life out."
I have seen the exact opposite work so many times in various recovery groups that I remain amazed with how it all works. And I'm talking about black out drunks that have no capacity to stop drinking or using at all, and having their craving arrested entirely.
An amazing part of this is that if "God" is not working for them, they are instructed to "design" a God that will work, and to go with that. For many, their "God" is the group itself. Either way, the results are incontrovertible providing a person nurtures a belief in something bigger than their conditioned/evolved brain.
The amazing thing is that it is not, IMO, the belief that creates the results, which is standard materialist thinking. rather, the belief facilitates the results. And for non believers, the results are equally effective so long as their actions are in line with what a "higher power" is being called to do. A great example of this is rrrAdam, who while a non-believer, has pulled countless soon-to-be terminal users right off the brink, and still does every single day. The guy's a saint, I'm sure.
So my sense of this is that Dr. F has fashioned a "God" that is "like a parasite, that sucks the life out" of things, and so that's how he experiences "God." Appeals to perhaps change his description or criteria for "God" have affected no change in the man, and he remains apparently obsessed with his "parasite God," projecting this imagined deity onto the entire world, and every man who has ever lived or who ever will live, insisting (for reasons that only he can substantiate) that no one, ever, has experienced anything but his parasite God, which is the only true God, amen.
This is, IMO, a pretty standard case of a person getting what they asked for, then blaming the dark bounty on the "God" he himself anti-worships - the "Parasite God" that sucks the life out of those who cast alms on his hungry altar.
The horror . . .
In my mind this is all a load of witchcraft by way of negative obsessing, but who know, really . . .
JL
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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This discussion simply shows our limits. Dr. F. and Norton choose to believe that there is no god, and nothing after death. If their hypothesis is correct, there can, by definition, be no evidence to support it. And please check your logic on this: your perceived lack of evidence does not prove non-existence.
I find it particularly interesting, though, that so many professed atheists get so upset about the faith-based beliefs of others, and yet their own belief ultimately rests on faith, too.
Finally, using the Bible to state Christian doctrine is both appropriate and necessary. What is written there is evidence of what contemporaries said, and believed. I think those who say that true Christianity differs from Biblical Christianity have a rather large (to me impossible) burden of proof.
John
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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"Not true"
What part?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
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Sorry Dr F
Largo pinned it correctly.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Even Donini as an atheist said it correctly, "Truth Never Changes"
Thus the truth transcends all material limitations past present and future.
Thus truth "lives" forever.
Where's your death .....??????
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Lack of evidence does prove non-existence
This is idiotic. No rational scientist would ever claim that you can prove something because of a lack of evidence. The only thing that a lack of evidence proves is that you have a lack of evidence.
Yes, The fact that no one has ever communicated with us from beyond the grave in any recordable way does mean that there is evidence that dead people do not communicate with us. It doesn't tell us if they can see and hear us or not, just that they don't talk to us.
Most of the atheists that I know do not get upset or concerned about the beliefs of others, just the idiotic actions because of those beliefs.
I think that everyone must have a belief. It's hard, nay impossible, to be totally objective. It is in our nature and programming to form an opinion about everything no matter what evidence there is. I have only seen pictures of the Eiffel Tower but I believe that it is real. Is that wrong or insane? On the other hand, I have heard of people who believe in fairies and even seen "pictures" of them but I believe that they are not real. How can this be when the evidence for both things is fairly similar for me personally? It is because there is more than just evidence. There is experience and wisdom and knowledge. I know from my own experience that a person can build things and that many people can build large things so believing in the Eiffel Tower is not so unexpected. On the other hand, I have zero experience with fairies or anything else magic to support their existence so I disbelieve. In fact, everything I am ever taught tells me that there cannot be fairies. Yet the same people who would tell me that there are no fairies would then try to convince me of an equally outlandish creature called God.
Doesn't that make sense to believers? Can't you understand why some people think you are nuts? The thing that makes you think that adults that believe in fairies are insane is the exact same thing that makes me think that you are insane. I see no difference between God, fairies, Santa Claus, vampires, etc.... it is all equal mythology.
Dave
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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Dr. F. wrote: "The parasite God is the Christian God, that asks you to sacrafice your life for a cause, the cause of feeding the parasite at the expense of feeding the person."
IMO, the most glaring mistake you make is in universalizing this negative evaluation as being a kind of all-or-nothing "truth" experienced by all Christians. I am not a Christian, so I cannot speak for them on this issue, but it's clear that what you describe with the parasite God of yours is not the direct experience of ALL Christians, despite your attempts to interpret their experience in light of your own, and to catagorically tell others the "truth" about what they are experiencing. This is your obsession. Circling on a subject with this kind of rigidity does not make something true.
What's more you are still demanding that "God" conform to materialist criteria (brainwaves et al), even though this "God" has delivered nothing at all for you, and has, by your own admission, provided you with nothing but rancor and wasted time for "believing" it ever, or at all.
My question is: If the material/soul parasite model is unsatisfactory to you and feels entirely made up and hokey - and few blame you there - than why not consider another "God?" Or consider "God" in other terms? You seem blind to your own fixation on the parasite God of yours, and your insistence to define "God" only in those terms. You have dissed other spiritual paths because they have not provided experiences or "evidence" for the parasite "Christian God" of yours, even though it was never the intention of these spiritual paths to illuminate something that never existed in the first instance.
So now, if you refuse to reframe "God," or consider options beyond your parasite model, than the problem is not spiritual, rather psychological, and is related to you reaping a "secondary gain" from clinging so tightly to a "God" which so clearly is bogus and negative - from your perspective.
Dood, if the parasite God don't work - dump him. Move on. Consider other options. Stop circling on something that gives you no spiritual rewards, and never can. You're pumping a dry well with that Parasite God of yours, and most of all, you're betting against yourself if you think there is none other that the parasite that is open to you.
JL
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 11, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
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...truths don't change. Politicians are adept at spining things to produce a certain outcome. The Mormons "suddenly" decided that polygamy was wrong when they wanted statehood.
The concept that the Mormon Church denouced poygamy so Utah could gain statehood is quasi history, Mr Donini..... quasi history composed by an imperious American political establishment assured in its own righteous lordliness.
If you consider looking at intact Mormon history, unabridged by unctuous popular opinion, you might arrive at wholly different assessments. Nineteenth century Mormons wanted their own nation apart from the United States. Run out of Illinois after mob assassination of mormon leaders and under an order of extermination from the governor of Missouri, there was little veneration left for U.S. politics, Manifest Destiny or the "freedom and rights" histrionics of politicians and Protestant clergy.
Mormon church leadership pressed for seperatism in a commonwealth named Deseret. Unrelenting persecution and memory of murders...tar and feathering....economic boycott and exclusion.....summary execution of Mormon children (Haun's Mill massacre)....were testament (to Mormons) that they were under the lion's paw....and a profane and malignant lion at that.
Mob violence, often incited by a belligerantly pious Protestant clergy, declined after migration to Utah. But territorial law, imposed by eastern politicians and their surrogates was harsh.
In 1882, George Q. Cannon was denied a seat in the House of Representatives becauseof his polygamous relations. This was an incendiary issue in national politics. Shortly after, the Edmunds Act was passed, revoking the right of polygamists to vote or hold office, and allowing them to be punished without due process. Even if people did not practice polygamy themselves, they could have their rights revoked if having any connection to a group practicing it. Over one thousand Mormons were imprisoned for practicing polygamy. In 1887, the Edmunds-Tucker Act seized control of the church. In July of the that year, the U.S. Attorney General filed a suit to seize the church and all of its assets.
Following these political machinations, the Church found it difficult to operate as a viable institution. This legislation disincorporated the Church, confiscated its properties, including the seizure of its temples. For its very existence, the United States government demanded that the mormon church discontinue the practice of polygamy.
Certainly you're entitled to your sentiments about mormonism.....and accept conventional opinion. I have no adoration for the institution of polygamy....but the popular concept that Mormons denounced polygamy to gain precious statehood..... in a hostile and overbearing nation.....I find quite ludicrous.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
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so Jennie, what of the other minorities disenfranchised by the majority beliefs? certainly the Mormons aren't the only group to so suffer...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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Run out of Illinois after mob assassination of Mormon leaders and under an order of extermination from the governor of Missouri, there was little veneration left for U.S. politics, Manifest Destiny or the "freedom and rights" histrionics of politicians and Protestant clergy. One can argue that emigration to and settlement of the Salt Lake area, and then Utah, was an expression of Manifest Destiny. Certainly the natives got the short end of the stick any way you look at it.
Also, it was improbable that an independent Mormon state would ever have been permitted to function as such by the US, which had its own firm views as to ownership of the west. Utah, as a 'nation', carried about as much weight as Texas when it was nominally independent, although perhaps more than the largely theoretical republic of California.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
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There is a mystery before us that is presently, and perhaps ultimately, unexplainable, as well we find feelings within ourselves that seem to have real efficacy. Who could deny the truth of such a statement; I certainly don’t.
But those two realities have produced a host of theological positions each with a sure sense of reality that is beyond question… and this is the problem.
The righteous dogma of any theological idea with its assertion of infallibility at the expense of the well being of “heretics” is a painful difficulty.
Still, we have to ask, “Where is God?” And how can such absolutist assertions be based only on the experiences of such a deeply personal nature and the speculation of infinite possibilities?
A question I’ve always found interesting is how could Satan, with his intimate knowledge of God’s nature and God’s absolute power, stand in opposition to what to what he (Satan) must certainly know is perfect?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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so Jennie, what of the other minorities disenfranchised by the majority beliefs? certainly the Mormons aren't the only group to so suffer...
Very true Ed and Anders....I fear Islam may well come to be the target of vicious and wide scale persecution in the U.S.....they have few friends in either secular or Christian quarters
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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Wescrist,wescrist, wescrist...when taken out of context you can turn any words into what you want it to say. By asking to not share anothers testimony I thought I was making it clear that I had more to say to make a point. The floor is yours, all yours. I'll step out of the way now.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
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Ed wrote: "so Jennie, what of the other minorities disenfranchised by the majority beliefs? certainly the Mormons aren't the only group to so suffer..."
In my experience, the curse of the "majority belief" is often that people in a given culture will consider the topic only in terms of the majority belief - God is this or that - and then, based on their own cognitive training or experiences, declare judgement on said belief being either totally correct or totally wrong - the case being closed for them ever after.
Here, in this Judeo Christian culture, we see the standard creator God, as described in the Saint James Bible, is often the only one considered relevant. Anything outside of that box is "ga ga mysticism."
What's more - and this is key - once a negative judgement is decided in a person's mind per "God," that judgement is as fixed as a knifeblade with a sledge hammer, and you will never see any tangible effort to uproot or challenge the fixed negative save the mental patterning that contrived the negative in the first instance. Such people do not actually have a "position," rather the fixated decision owns them. They cannot budge away from it - and here you look at the behavior, not the justifications and rationalizations for staying stuck.
As I've said, this is more of a psychological condition than a spiritual matter, having to do with the mind's inability to work with paradox. The first step to any spiritual path is giving up the idea that you are going to think your way to knowledge. It's really a matter of what you do.
In terms of spiritual matters, at least at the beginning, it does NOT matter what you think or what you feel, but it matters what you do. Once you do better, you will think and feel better. Put differently, once you stop trying to think your way there, more will be revealed. It is conterintuitive.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
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Largo nails it again ......
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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The great mystic Sri Ramakrishna said that "communion with the Atman is 10 million times better and more enjoyable than sex."
Another Indian mystic, Ammachi said:
"The happiness that we gain from the outer world is fleeting; it never stays with you for long. It is there for one moment and the next moment it is gone. But, spiritual bliss is not like that. Once the final breakthrough happens, that is, once you transcend the limitations of body, mind and intellect, once you reach that state, there is no return. The bliss is forever. And it is infinite."
Yet another one, Paramahansa Yogananda says:
"Meditation means transferring your attention from the bundle of sensations that is your body to the Infinite Joy that is your true Self."
Also, he said, "Oh, such joy! I don't feel any sensations making any permanent impression in me. The ordinary man walks, sleeps, works, earns. I find I am settled in Bliss. I am awake in Bliss, ever watching the states of the body and mind when they are awake or asleep or dreaming. Last night I ate, and when I finished I didn't know I had eaten. All I knew was Bliss Eternal and Light ever spreading."
So, it sounds like they are having fun with something, whether one believes in God or not.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 11, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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To distinguish the spiritual from the material is fine. -As long as it's understood the spiritual is obedient to the material.
A traditional view is that life works through matter but is independent of it. This is incorrect.
No brain, no mind. No body, no spirit. Pretty simple relationships. Hard for traditional theists who have spent a lifetime buying into the Abrahamic narrative (aka the bible stories) to grasp however, double hard for those with no science education.
EDIT 4:41p Oh, Brawny, the woo woo speculator... I knew you'd chime in. When will you adapt. Read some life science textbooks. Adapt. Upgade your software. Get with it.
That we are material beings in addition to spiritual beings isn't the end of the world, it only means we don't get to live forever.
P.S. My carnate spirit is feeling better today, it's been a little under the weather, think it picked up a bug on the climbing holds in the gym a few days ago. How's your spirit? Flying high? Want to climb tomorrow?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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A traditional view is that life works through matter but is independent of it. This is incorrect.
No, that's correct.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 11, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Most of the atheists that I know do not get upset or concerned about the beliefs of others, just the idiotic actions because of those beliefs.
-Dave
That's an interesting point, I'm kind of a Joseph Campbell fanboi myself (Power of Myth). Allegorically speaking.
What really fascinates me about the march of science is this...hidden mass, you can't hide anymore, lil beeotch...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/06/01/a-particle-physics-first-researchers-watch-neutrinos-change-flavors/
...and wacky sinkholes, and old shoes...and...
But for the more esoteric I pose this question, is there heaven on earth? Bonus points if you don't play Pascal's Gambit...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 11, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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"To distinguish the spiritual from the material is fine. -As long as it's understood the spiritual is obedient to the material."
You're not grasping the basic concept here. You're just spinning around in what you believe - which is material reductionism, whereby the evolved brain "produces" spirit.
Put differently, matter produces space or void. Is that true?
Since we have already discussed the notion that the All or "God" is not a thing, you must look to the void or nothingness. Now in the world we live in, does space "source" matter (which is both matter and a wave form), or does matter source the field?
Or is it the case that space is matter and matter is space, exactly.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 11, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
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Largo wrote-
"You're not grasping the basic concept here. You're just spinning around in what you believe..."
Ditto.
I guess it is part of what makes America great. You get to express your stance in Believersville and so do I.
We believe. We act on those beliefs. And our destinies are revealed.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
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Go drive your car without getting into it .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 11, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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Everybody on this thread, myself included, is spinning around in what we believe. I see no change in peoples beliefs from post 1, didn't expect to, time to move on.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jun 11, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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people still use ditto?
major flashback.
i think i'm gonna make like a fetus and abort.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 11, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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...we are finding that when muons turn tau that matter does create void. Time will tell.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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Donini "...... time to move on."
We all have been moving along all along.
Static ropes don't work too well on hard leads where you might fall .......
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 11, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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i'm also a campbell reader, 426, but i'm wondering about your post--just a rather superficial report on advanced physics, as so many of them are.
i have a copy of what was published of campbell's unfinished final opus, the world atlas of mythology, in five volumes (he had planned more.) he groups ancient myth into two broad categories--the way of the animal powers, or the old hunter-gatherer societies, and the way of the seeded earth, or agricultural societies. in this broad sea change of human development, mythologists see the rise of modern religion.
in the old way, the shaman's way, humans don't consider themselves anything but part of nature. totemism is strong--we felt allegiance with various animals, and we looked to these key animals for success in the hunt. we didn't try to change the environment, we just rolled with its punches and felt at home.
then came agriculture, and many mythologists feel that modern divinity arose with that. if you want a feel for it, just stop by a country church, anywhere in the country, on sunday. don't you dare argue religion with the farmers, all dependent on a host of factors for their living, with so many things that can go wrong. these guys have a lot to pray for.
in its early form, agriculturalists realized they needed help. their identity was no longer with nature, but as an exploiter. and weather was the key. so they looked heavenward for help.
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EvolveOrExtinct
Social climber
SinCity
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Jun 11, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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using the words" all, without a doubt, absolutely", and so on.
No, scientist dont use those words when describing the world, we are not that vain or egocentric to think we or our "Higher ups" are omnipotent. However there are tangible results that can be observed to be "without a doubt, absolutely" when proper scientific technique is used to test or support a hypothesis that may explain part of the picture. This evidence based "belief" has a rational foundation and is something that can be trusted without a leap of faith.
Religion and people who believe them on the other hand do rely on a leap of faith because nothing you have that supports any religions is any more than here-say, mysticism and fairy tales recorded posthumously.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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Jan...
Why is it that the most devout, especially in the Bible Belt, tend to have the highest divorce rates, spousal abuse rates, child abuse rates, teen pregnancy rates in the US?
Also note that the KKK is/was a Christian organization... What is it that they most often light on fire? A lower case "t", huh? How many "fine Christian white men" would be disguisted to see their daughter marry a black man? Get real before you start playing the "race card".
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
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And ID... STOP spamming my email! I don't want to buy your ice axes or screws.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
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the KKK is/was a Christian organization..
the KKK was the terrorist wing of the Democratic party in the reconstruction south. The bylaws exclude Blacks, Jews and Republicans.
Are you going to tar all Democrats with the same brush?
A bit of a flaw in the logic there.
You better do a bit more research on some of your other statistics as well.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Hey rrrADAM, what about all those people who work with "God as you understand him." Ever thought about the really far out implications of what that means, or the effectiveness of the "group conscious," or "God does for you what you cannot do for yourself." Yes, I know quite a bit about that... Been clean and sober for over 21 years. I have a higher power, as I understand it... It started off as the group, then pretty becamse much everyone who genuinly cares about me and/or has my well being in mind... A couple in this thread are a facet of that, and they may or maynot know it. As a collective whole, they certainly are a "power greater than myswelf", and their 'group concience' doesn't lead me astray, as if I am honest with them, they tend to give me sound advice... No need to try to interpret the word of God,or have to read tea leaves or rolled bones. I also sponsor many people, and most of them call Jesus, or God, their HP, and I'm OK with it, as long as it works for them, and they have a practical benifit. Some do not, and suffer because of it, so I have them rework 2 and 3, to get a better understanding.
My take on this is - not standard by any means - is that things might be a lot more fluid and mysterious than we can ever imagine. That is, our consciousness or power of choice does not "create" God anymore than the brain "produces" consciousnsess, but that we subtly influence the outcomes in our life by where our mind is at in terms of our beliefs and so forth. If we believe there is no God, than we reap the psychological harvest of believing as such. Being infinite, the universe will support, in subtle ways, whatever we bring into being by way of consciousness. We are not sourcing the results, per se, meaning we are not creating out of noting, but if we decide to go into a hardware store, so to speak, we will find what there is kept in a hardware store. If I choose an atheist position, I will experience what that position carries with it, as opposed to my brain sourcing the content of that position. I am well aware of your take John, as I have spoken with you about it. Sorry, I still haven't gotten to really dive into those CDs you gave me. I need to do better.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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I have seen the exact opposite work so many times in various recovery groups that I remain amazed with how it all works. And I'm talking about black out drunks that have no capacity to stop drinking or using at all, and having their craving arrested entirely.
An amazing part of this is that if "God" is not working for them, they are instructed to "design" a God that will work, and to go with that. For many, their "God" is the group itself. Either way, the results are incontrovertible providing a person nurtures a belief in something bigger than their conditioned/evolved brain.
The amazing thing is that it is not, IMO, the belief that creates the results, which is standard materialist thinking. rather, the belief facilitates the results. And for non believers, the results are equally effective so long as their actions are in line with what a "higher power" is being called to do. A great example of this is rrrAdam, who while a non-believer, has pulled countless soon-to-be terminal users right off the brink, and still does every single day. The guy's a saint, I'm sure.
IMO... The "magic" in recovery comes from many things, but most importantly, humility, surrender, and help. (Honesty, openmindedness, and willingness)
In our literature we say, "the theraputic value of one addict helping another is without parallel"... Repeat, "without parallel", that means "nothing is equal to it". When we finaly 'surrender' and accept that help, from other addicts who are in recovery, then our recovery starts.
Everyone has a unique path in their recovery, but those are the fundamental core spiritual principles.
PS... Thanx for the kind words John.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 11, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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Here, in this Judeo Christian culture, we see the standard creator God, as described in the Saint James Bible, is often the only one considered relevant. Anything outside of that box is "ga ga mysticism."
What's more - and this is key - once a negative judgement is decided in a person's mind per "God," that judgement is as fixed as a knifeblade with a sledge hammer, and you will never see any tangible effort to uproot or challenge the fixed negative save the mental patterning that contrived the negative in the first instance. Such people do not actually have a "position," rather the fixated decision owns them. They cannot budge away from it - and here you look at the behavior, not the justifications and rationalizations for staying stuck.
As I've said, this is more of a psychological condition than a spiritual matter, having to do with the mind's inability to work with paradox. The first step to any spiritual path is giving up the idea that you are going to think your way to knowledge. It's really a matter of what you do. Well said.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 12, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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the KKK is/was a Christian organization...
the KKK was the terrorist wing of the Democratic party in the reconstruction south. The bylaws exclude Blacks, Jews and Republicans.
Are you going to tar all Democrats with the same brush?
A bit of a flaw in the logic there.
You better do a bit more research on some of your other statistics as well.
Ummmmmmmmm... Who's painting with wide brush strokes here?
Again, what was it that they burned? Do you think many, if any, of those "fine Southern Gentlemen" were not God fearing Christians? Ever heard of the Christian Knights Of the Ku Klux Klan?
The Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan: Formed in 1985 by Virgil Griffin and based in Mount Holly, North Carolina. The Christian Knights are active in North and South Carolina, Kentucky and Tennessee. A suspect in two June 1995 arsons of predominately Black South Carolina churches-part of an apparent epidemic of church arsons occurring throughout the country since January 1995-carried a card identifying him as a member of the Christian Knights. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/KKK.html
I'm sure those "confident Christians", just as confident as ID, believe that Heaven is only for Xians just like them... Just as ID believes that Heaven is only for Xians just like him.
Or, from the lengthy wiki entry on Christian Terrorism:Christian terrorism is religious terrorism by groups or individuals, the motivation for which is typically rooted in an idiosyncratic interpretation of the Bible and other Christian tenets of faith. Christian terrorists draw upon Christian scripture and theology to justify violent political activities.[1]
. . .
Beginning in the late nineteenth century, white supremacist Ku Klux Klan members in the Southern United States engaged in arson, beatings, cross burning, destruction of property, lynching, murder, rape, tar-and-feathering, and whipping against African Americans, Jews, Catholics and other social or ethnic minorities.[36] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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The music doesn't care for this dry language ...........
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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Your rope has no anchor ......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 12, 2010 - 03:26am PT
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If the rope is an illusion then an anchor is a fool's guarantee.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:50am PT
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haha, rrradam, getting emails from ID? why don't we all meet at the church of beetlejuice. fellowshipping!
TGT has a pretty good belief system going. republicrats and demoblicans. i love it when life is simple.
i understand they have an anonymous society for atheist addicts these days--about time. i give money to the bums on the offramps. i don't think anyone should be forcing religion on down-and-outers.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jun 12, 2010 - 11:21am PT
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Did you hear about the dyslexic agnostic with insomnia?
He stayed up all night wondering if there really was a Dog.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 12, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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Dr. F said: "Its all about maybe there is something, that something that all the books and elders talk about.
Its a myth, no one made it, nothing has been revealed."
I agree with this, but not in the way you think. Who ever told you that a spiritual quest is after "something," and what books are you talking about?
In the Zen tradition, when you meet the "something" you mention, you are instructed to immediately let go, "non-attachment," and that means the Buddha as well. If you meet the Buddha in mediation, you are instructed to "kill the Buddha." Why? Because what you have met is not the Buddha, but an idea, belief of notion about the Buddha, not Buddha-mind, or no-mind.
As far as nobody every getting some separation from their mundane mind/brain or ego fixations, which is what this is all about, you would be very much mistaken about this, though there is no "place" where they go.
The idea that "more will be revealed" is such a fundamental part of recovery that it goes without saying. I'm sure that rrrAdam had thoughts about this.
JL
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 12, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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We all have eyes, but we look through our own eye!
There is only one sky, but we go about our buisness!
God gives us life, but will call us to account!
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 12, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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Werner, You are nailing it everytime.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 12, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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It strikes me that so much of Christian theology is predicated on accounting. The debt and repayment (atonement) for original sin for instance. I wonder how much of this has to do with St. Paul’s history as a tax collector and keeper of records?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 12, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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We can never repay God and Jesus for all they have done for us, just be grateful!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 12, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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paul roehl!
The Apostle Paul wasn't a "tax collector"!
You are prob thinking of Matthew, who was a despicable tax collector.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 12, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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TYeary- "Werner, You are nailing it everytime."
??
Last time I saw WB, he was soloing it(cordless) Midterm, New D. and..."every time"!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 12, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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"What a joke... nobody's convincing anybody..."
I don't think everyone on this thread is out to "convince" others or to "make" others believe as they do. At least not first and foremost. Instead, I think many are simply interested in expressing themselves (You know... "Express yourself...") in regard to (a) their own practice of living and (b) their own beliefs (in Believersville), for example, in order to see who at the Taco is like-spirited and, of course, the opposite, too, to see who at the Taco is not like-spirited.
I've learned that Go-B and I, for instance, are not "like-spirited" when it comes to our models for how the world works. Same, too, with Brawny and me. Oh, well.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 12, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
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Yes, TL7, I did mean St. Matthew, as according to tradition, he is the earliest of the Gospel writers.
But, nevertheless, the New Testament seems to revolve around this notion of debt and repayment.
As to Christian, religious arguments in general, I'm struck by Tertullian's aphorism, "Credo quia ineptum" (I believe because it is absurd).
And Paul's declaration: "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe."
How wonderfully ironic and fitting.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 12, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
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I don't think everyone on this thread is out to "convince" others or to "make" others believe as they do. This is correct...
Personally, I am just trying to get some to think outside of the box, and if I am able to learn something in the process, all the better for me. My beliefs are not static, they are dynamic, and change with new information - With every new grain I place in the scales. Unfortunately, many will not, under any circumstances, weigh everything... In fact, some refuse outright to weigh many things (Deny... Deny... Ignore... Ignore...) Their beliefs ARE static, and cannot be changed. It is impossible to graft new ideas onto a closed mind.
As Bruce Lee said:
"A closed mind cannot think freely."
I'm all about edification, and that takes action. But to be honest, I really need to actually DO what John and I talked about a while ago, and he even sent me some material to work with, and I have not 'made the time' to do it properly.
As someone said earlier... I don't have issue with any religion, per se... My wife is a Cathie, and I was even there when my kids were Christened (It's important to my in-laws, and what do I care if they had a little water splashed on them). I do have an issue with many of religion's negative influence on education, or the liberties of others. "Blue Laws" are still alive and restricting the liberties of many... Dry counties, purchasing restrictions on Sunday, etc.
Back onto the subject of the relationship Christianity had with slavery... It's true that, in the North, some denominations had a major influence in the abolishment of slavery, but it is also true that in the South, some denominations had an even bigger role in keeping the status quo, as well as the exclusion of blacks, well into the 20th century. In fact, the Southern Baptist Convention didn't formorly appologize until 1995... And this was only after their numbers started to dwindle, thus their political influence, and they needed the blacks to increase their ranks:
Residual effects of the decision to separate from other Baptists in defense of white supremacy and the institution of slavery have been long lived. A survey by SBC's Home Mission Board in 1968 showed that only eleven percent of Southern Baptist churches would admit Americans of African descent.[17] African Americans gathered to develop their own churches early on, including some before the American Revolution, to practice their distinct form of American Christianity away from attempts by whites at control. Within the Baptist denomination, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, African Americans established separate associations.
During the conservative resurgence, the Southern Baptist Convention of 1995 voted to adopt a resolution renouncing its racist roots and apologizing for its past defense of slavery.[18][19] The resolution repenting racism marked the denomination's first formal acknowledgment that racism played a role in its early history. By the early 21st century there were increasing numbers of ethnically diverse congregations within the convention. In 2008, almost 20 percent were estimated to be majority African-American, Asian or Hispanic and there were an estimated one million African-American members.[20]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention#Consequences_and_repentance_of_early_racism
Here's a little homework for Christians here...
Since the Sabbath, the day that God commanded us to remember and keep Holy in the 10 Commandments, is Saturday. Where, how, and why did the Christian observation of Sunday come from? And for bonus points, where does the name "Sunday" come from, as what is its relation to Jesus?
Remember now, Jesus recognized Saturday as Holy, as he was a practicing Jew... He wasn't a Christian.
My guess though, is that the resident Fundies will not even look. Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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Don't be a bad boy Locker, It's nearly the sabbath, I can smell the incense already. I hope it doesn't rain again tomorrow, my church is the outdoors.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 12, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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Yes, TL7, I did mean St. Matthew, as according to tradition, he is the earliest of the Gospel writers.
"Tradition" perhaps, but not historicaly accurate, as most scholars believe that Mark predates Matthew, and was even used as a source for Matthew and Luke.
See the "Synoptic Problem" I linked previously.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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Looking for headification?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 12, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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And that's why I said "traditionally"... though it should be noted that any number of Catholic scholars will give you a run for your money in a debate regarding Mark as the earliest.
Frankly, I could care less.
The real issue is this inherent willingness to accept the absurd as truth primarily BECAUSE it is absurd.
And then claim that as an appropriate and final argument for the existence of a Christian God.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 12, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Christian observation of Sunday come from?"
Because Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday morning.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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donini- "my church is the outdoors!"
Actually the outdoors is an excellent place to worship cause "church" isn't a building per se... "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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True, but when it comes to the "God question" I am a committed atheist. I do feel a spiritual connection with the natural world.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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Donini -- "I do feel a spiritual connection with the natural world."
Nothing new here at all.
Everything feels a spiritual connection with the natural world .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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Werner I only wish that were true. How many members of the previous Bush administration would you include in that group?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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headification--there you go, locker.
one of the guys i know who became a devout muslim was a student bum in new york city. he looked up one day and saw "a gorgeous moroccan babe". next thing you know he's got a phd in arabic folklore and faces mecca five times a day. i would've gone to that church too.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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Everything is connected knowingly or unknowingly.
That's why you call it the natural material world.
Nothing new there, it's got nothing to do with politics.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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Semantics Werner. The environment (my natural world) is constantly compromised in the name of "progress." Short term greed is easily rationalized if you believe that the "rapture" is just around the corner.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jun 12, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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I don't know about god - but whoever or whatever made Vidalia onions and put them on sale today at FoodsCo has my appreciation.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 12, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
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I belong to The Church of What's Happening Now, same as Flip Wilson
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Everyone knows that God so loved Man that he created the Vidalia onion. What about Brussel sprouts?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 12, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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Rapture is everywhere right now... "The kingdom of God is set upon the earth but men do not see it."
They're too busy anticipating what "will not come by expectation."
If God is, if life is, if rapture is, it is only in the immediate moment here right now and nowhere else where ever the hell you are.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jun 12, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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Brussel sprouts were spawned in the sulfurous pits of hell.
Or at least Gilroy.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 12, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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Gilroy, aren't you talking about garlic? Ah garlic....now there is an argument for "Intelligent Design."
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jun 12, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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Gilroy and Garlic - yes sir you are correct.
But that whole end of the Salinas Valley also grows those fart-stained sprout nuggets from Brussels as a "bridge crop" before the garlic harvest comes in July.
I think they sell them mostly to old ladies in Carmel.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 12, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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"The environment (my natural world) ..."
Huh?
It's only yours?
I thought it's all of OURS, the whole planet, universe and everything included .....
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 13, 2010 - 01:00am PT
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paul roehl- "I believe because it is absurd."
You quoted 1 Corinthians 1:21 "...the folly of what we preach..."
What was being preached was/is looked at as folly(foolish)by the world, not Paul or God!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 13, 2010 - 10:31am PT
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politics is connected too, werner. everything isn't "good". but it seems 'most everyone wants it to be.
"the devil made me buy that dress." -- flip wilson
same church i go to, donino.
when i was a kid, i used to be an altar boy. the greatest moment of the week was when we got outa mass and headed for the lake. the comic relief was incredible.
bob guccione, founder of penthouse magazine, had a similar experience. he thanks his catholic upbringing for oversensitizing him to sex for the rest of his life. communion with the atman 10 million times better than sex? those guys were never raised catholic.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 13, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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That's the whole point... it is perceived as absurd (foolish) because it is and in the end you must believe anyway.
And finally, how else would your belief attain the level of faith unless it were unbelievable as rational discourse? For what else is faith?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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Belief and faith only go so far.
Proof is the final result.
God exists and has been proven since time immemorial .....
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 13, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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are you a mathematician, werner? if you can give us a mathematical proof for the existence of god, i believe that would clinch it, although it would probably take you awhile to get it all explained across. never fear, though. if it's proven, it'll come across sooner or later.
on the other hand, if you don't have a good mathematical proof, it could well mean that your god does not exist within of the realm of mathematics. this could make you a child of a lesser god, which i have no quarrel with. i think i'm one as well.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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Tony Bird
" it could well mean "
" this could make you "
This means you don't know and are ultimately guessing.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 13, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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wikipedia--a lite answer for every query. and i do believe werner is running out of sass.
the egyptian soul would be conducted to the scale of judgement. the deceased's heart would be placed on one plate, and on the other was a feather, provided by the sky goddess, nut. if your heart was lighter than the feather, you would be conducted to the very pleasant afterlife, closely resembling the good life along the nile in those days. but if it was heavier, there was this nasty crocodile-headed dog that would gobble it up posthaste, and that would be the end of you.
so interesting that god didn't butt the pharoah out and give the best land in the middle east to his chosen people. instead, they roamed around the desert for years, finally settling for an only slightly arable strip south of much more desirable lebanon, which they immediately decided was their promised land. that lesser god again, werner.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
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You're still guessing and speculating both about me or God.
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
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Jun 13, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
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God exists and has been proven since time immemorial .....
Your guessing again Werner.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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No you're guessing and you will keep guessing that will be true in your next post.
I made an absolute fact that is absolutely TRUE in the past, present and the future.
Since you don't know what God is you're the mental speculator.
God has been proven since time immemorial.
That is fact!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 13, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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Some folks use the circular argument that the Bible ,because it is the word of God, (although written by men) proves the existence of God- quite bizarre.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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I never use the Bible.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 13, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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I said "some" people, not all.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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A rigid western intellectual dichotomy is prevalent in these threads.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
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Don't worry.
Jesus Christ is bonafide, and has been so accepted by all the great learned sages .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 13, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
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Those great learned sages must be the great learned sages that believe in the divinity of JC.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 13, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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The following discussion, involving some of the world's leading scientists and philosophers of mind (most of them are scientists as well), is not terribly convincing, but it's interesting to see where the professionals stand on such interesting subjects like material reductionism and physicalism.
--
Naturalism and its problems
The thesis of physicalism is that the mind is part of the material (or physical) world. Such a position faces the problem that the mind has certain properties that no other material thing possesses. This does not automatically rule out material reductionism, but it does insist that Physicalism explain how it is possible said properties can nonetheless emerge from a material thing. The project of providing such an explanation - fruitless as it has so far proved - is commonly referred to as the "naturalization of the mental."
Two crucial problems that Physicalism has not, and is unlikely to ever get past, involve the existence of qualia and the nature of intentionality.
Qualia
Many mental states have the unique property of being experienced subjectively in different ways by different individuals. For example, it is characteristic of the mind/body state of pain that it hurts (itself a subjective term). Moreover, the sensation of pain between two individuals may not be identical, and in fact can vary considerably. Of course there is no objective method of measuring pain, or of describing exactly how it feels to hurt. There remains a glaring and so far insuperable problem with any claim or explanation stating that the brain “creates” pain. To wit: Consider the exact same “efficient cause,” for instance a hammer to the finger, and how it can product an undeniably real phenomenon (pain) that is experienced in radically different ways by people with DNA that is identical down to the percentages of a one hundred thousands of one percent.
Philosophers and neuroscientists wonder where these experiences (like pain) come from. Nothing indicates that a neural or functional state can be accompanied or can produce anything such as a pain experience. Often the point is formulated as follows: the existence of cerebral events, in and of themselves, cannot explain why they are accompanied by these corresponding qualitative experiences. The puzzle of why many cerebral processes occur with an accompanying experiential aspect in consciousness remains so far impossible to explain by way of reductionism.
It also seems to many that science will eventually have to explain such experiences. This follows from the logic of reductive explanations. If I try to explain a phenomenon reductively (e.g., water), I also have to explain why the phenomenon has all of the properties that it has (e.g., fluidity, transparency). In the case of mental states, this means that there needs to be an explanation of why they have the property of being experienced in a certain way, which cannot be explained away biologically or atomically. The problem of explaining the introspective, first-person aspects of mental states, and consciousness in general, in terms of third-person quantitative neuroscience is called the explanatory gap.
There are several different views of the nature of this gap among contemporary scientists and philosophers of mind. David Chalmers and the early Frank Jackson interpret the gap as ontological in nature: that is, they maintain that qualia can never be explained by science because physicalism is entirely false. There are two separate categories involved and one cannot be reduced, or posited to have "caused" the other because there is no experimental evidence to support such a claim.
An alternative view is taken by philosophers such as Thomas Nagel andColin McGinn. According to them, the gap is epistemological in nature. For Nagel, science is not yet able to explain subjective experience because it has not yet arrived at the level or kind of knowledge that is required. We are not even able to formulate the problem coherently. For McGinn, on other hand, the problem is one of permanent and inherent biological limitations. We are not able to resolve the explanatory gap because the realm of subjective experiences is cognitively closed to us in the same manner that quantum physics is cognitively closed to elephants.
Intentionality
John Searle - one of the most influential philosophers of mind, proponent of biological naturalism (Berkeley 2002)
Intentionality is the capacity of mental states to be directed towards (about) or be in relation with something in the external world. This property of mental states entails that they have contents and semantic referents and can therefore be assigned truth values. When one tries to reduce these states to natural processes there arises an insurmountable problem: natural processes are not true or false, they simply happen. It would not make any sense to say that a natural process is true or false. But mental ideas or judgments are true or false, so how then can mental states (ideas or judgments) be natural processes beholden to an evolved brain? They clearly cannot. The possibility of assigning semantic value to ideas must mean that such ideas are about facts. Thus, for example, the idea that Herodotus was a historian refers to Herodotus and to the fact that he was an historian. If the fact is true, then the idea is true; otherwise, it is false. But where does this relation come from? In the brain, there are only electrochemical processes that have nothing to do with Herodotus.
Another interesting piece is found at: http://www.gau.edu.tr/PDF-Files/JSAS_004_07/JSAS_004_07_1_Boyer.pdf
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 13, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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largo--
the big mistake of your chop-logic begins with the word "material", which you immediately amend with "or physical".
modern physics gives us matter and energy, interchangeable in intimate ways, which neither you nor i have spent the requisite lifetimes to be conversant with. mind is quite obviously the product of this dance of matter and energy, the electricity in our material synapses between the neurons of our nerve systems and brains. modern electronics and computer science have confirmed this relationship in the astounding re-creation of natural nervous systems in the computer realm.
like it or not, we and our consciousnesses are the products of the natural world. i don't tug at it with the theologies of those who must create a supernatural. natural is wonderful and beautiful to me, i embrace it wholeheartedly, and i see our existences and consciousnesses as a real miracle, something wonderful, to be wondered at and, as is our privilege, approached for understanding.
pain? only a problem to christians. it's part of the survival mechanism, built in to all biology.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 13, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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ah, cragman--glad you've joined the fray. your comment is sincere, and i compliment you on that, but it ends on the usual, so christian, sour note of "you'll see--i shall have told you so".
i think the best christian comments on this thread come from climbera5, and i miss him 'cause he hasn't posted in awhile. none of this we're-gonna-show-you crap. he's a genuinely humble man and he makes a lot better case for his beliefs than any of the rest of you.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 13, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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It is sensible to understand mind consciousness as a product of evolutionary process. It’s functions have provided humanity success in that regard.
The strangeness and mystery of consciousness are a given, but consciousness is inherently tied to the very structure of its physical generator the brain.
As well, that conscious “thing” within, that “thing” we know as the self, that “thing” that is the structure of our experience and knowing receptor of our experience is perhaps the most mysterious and difficult to understand.
A light bulb gives off light as a function of the energy fed through its structure, when the energy is cut off or the bulb is damaged the light ceases to exist… where does it go?
The experience of self, of feelings is a function of energy fed through the remarkable structure of our very physical brains. Alter that machine, damage it and individual experience is altered. Shut it off and that experience ceases… where does it go?
Nothing is more mysterious than self-awareness, nothing. But how does that mystery lead us to God?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 13, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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Tony the Bird
You're getting desperate.
" ... those who must create a supernatural .."
Nobody is creating anything, it's already been there long before you ever showed up.
Suddenly you were born into this material world and now you're the authority on consciousness.
Consciousness existed long before you ever were born and it is superior to all material.
You are subordinate to it.
You are the creator of your own illusion.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 13, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Go-B and Braun are two sides of the same coin.
Here, for your amusement:
Figure it out. The historical Jesus was a human, no more a God than Cleopatra (Daughter of Isis) or Julius Caesar (Son of Jupiter). Check yourself, you might suffer from this Irrational Disbelief Syndrome.
Belief: Jesus was a human being, not a God. Belief: Evolution is fact. Belief: Life is an evolved function. Belief: Consciousness is what the brain does. Belief: This life is not a rehearsal. One life to live, that's all.
Reframe it: Christians are nonbelievers. Many don't believe in evolution. Many don't believe in science or living up to science education. Many don't believe in Ashtar or Marduk, other ancient Mesopotamian Gods. Christians are nonbelievers. They suffer from Irrational Disbelief Syndrome.
To Christians who believe the historical Jesus was God Jesus, get help. It IS available.
It is not "vile" or "arrogant" or "hateful" as Christian political talking point lists call out, instead it's (a) education, decision-making, taking a stance and (b) expressing these.
Times are achanging. Brick by brick.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 13, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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It appears the "Greeks" and the "Jews" are running this thread!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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I see "excellency of speech or of wisdom", "enticing words of man's wisdom." That sounds as if someone already knows you!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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From what I've read in this thread I could comfortably conclude that most users would call "God's Word" foolishness. Is that fair to conclude, Tony, HF, Juan, Wes, PR, Donini, et al non-believers?
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:47am PT
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I hear ya Crag', just waiting for a response from the rest.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:56am PT
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I would never call Christian belief just foolish (absurd) it was the great father of the church, Tertullian, that did that.
As to Christian, religious arguments in general, I'm struck by Tertullian's aphorism, "Credo quia ineptum" (I believe because it is absurd).
The prerequisite of faith is absurdity!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 14, 2010 - 02:21am PT
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Context, context, context.....
Tertullian wrote:
Natus est Dei Filius, non pudet, quia pudendum est;
et mortuus est Dei Filius, prorsus credibile est, quia ineptum est;
et sepultus resurrexit, certum est, quia impossibile.
"The Son of God was born: there is no shame, because it is shameful.
And the Son of God died: it is wholly credible, because it is unsound.
And, buried, He rose again: it is certain, because impossible."
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 14, 2010 - 02:28am PT
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"like it or not, we and our consciousnesses are the products of the natural world. i don't tug at it with the theologies of those who must create a supernatural. natural is wonderful and beautiful to me, i embrace it wholeheartedly, and i see our existences and consciousnesses as a real miracle, something wonderful, to be wondered at and, as is our privilege, approached for understanding."
Tony,
Sounds "enticing", or with "excellence of speech" but I found a concerning contradiction...
MIR'ACLE, n. [L. miraculum, from miror, to wonder.]
1. Literally, a wonder or wonderful thing; but appropriately,
2. In theology, an event or effect contrary to the established constitution and course of things, or a deviation from the known laws of nature; a supernatural event. - Noah Webster 1828 Dictionary
That being said, "miracle", on its own, would definitely be out of your character for you to use unless you say "a literal miracle". "Miracle" is what I would expect to see a "Christian" use.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 14, 2010 - 02:52am PT
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Paul wrote: "The strangeness and mystery of consciousness are a given, but consciousness is inherently tied to the very structure of its physical generator the brain."
Sorry dood, you done whiffed again. Rather profoundly, I'm afraid. Now you have to go to the corner and put on the pointy hat, for two reasons:
First, you didn't read, or didn't understand the articles, which are not my opinions (I actually disagree with some of them), but those of professionals who work this whole mind and consciousness debate, and two, your quote above is not only harking back to the remedial reductionism, but always posits a kind of "greedy physicalism" where causation runs bottom up, from atomic to complex and finally into "emergent" qualities - and such a causation reflects none of the feedback loops and two-way causation found in the more sophisticated thought on the subject.
Yours is a simple mechanistic approach - a sort of Barny Rubble cosmology that makes sense on a certain level, but is clearly impossible once you start getting some basic chops on how consciousness works and what it is and is not.
And Tony, I fear that you'll have to spend time in the corner as well, for both impudence and density of skull matter. My use of "matter" is a simplified term for this thread referring to something that can be measured by way of scientific experiment. You too seem fixated on the old bottom up causal mode, and the greedy physicalism model, where atomic or chemical processes "produce" the higher function "up" stream.
Perhaps we have to accept and be okay with the notion that subtler investigations of this material, especially those that don't square with Barny Rubble materialism, whereby consciousness is the "result" of a simple stimulus response mechanism (the evolved brain), are simply not being grasped, let along understood, in the first instance.
Again, those articles dismissing material reductionism were not mine, and I thought I made that clear. I simply cited the material as interesting.
For those still struggling and hanging onto to the Rubbleesque material reductionism like a 5.12 lieback, perhaps start with the basics work up as you master the newer and subtler concepts. You might even start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness Not a cutting edge piece, but it presents some of he basics in easy to understand terms.
JL
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 14, 2010 - 03:43am PT
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I've also noted throughout the thread that the "Christians" are, on the most part, trying to convey a warning to the "evolutionists" as opposed to throwing darts, pointing fingers at or condemning the others when they try to answer the questions posed to the them. In my bit of research of the Bible (KJV) I came across the book of John chapter three, verses 17-19 where Jesus says Himself:
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believe on him is not condemned: but he that believe not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
Based on this, it's God's word that's condemning you not the "Christians" themselves, whether or not you believe.
Its very easy to take text out of context when trying to communicate via a keyboard for its difficult to express inflection or emphasis with emotion via facial exressions, body language etc. If ANYONE in this thread could teach us how to properly chat via text it would be Mr. Werner Braun for he has lived in this silent world for all his life and uses this as. I would guess as one of his primary tools of communication, ie; TTY/TDD, etc. God blessed you Werner!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 14, 2010 - 03:49am PT
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hey there fredrick and all, say, just noticed this tonight, and i must say:
as to this quote:
One of his primary tools of communication, ie; TTD, etc
three cheers for the ol' TTD, it is a blessing to many a folks....
oh my, and a big "hey there" to ol' werner, tonight, too...
god bless...
:)
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 07:12am PT
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rrrADAM- "Christian observation of Sunday come from?"
Because Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday morning.
No... Not even close. It (why Sunday) isn't hard to find out, if you only look.
But for the relation to Jesus, and even the name of the day "Sunday" will be a bit more difficult, but not too hard, if one only looks.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 07:32am PT
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What's troubling here is that because so many have dismissed the Christian view because it 'didn't work' for them for whatever reason, they deem that it must be false.
By your reasoning, any Muslim or Hindu who's belief (just as confident as yours, BTW) "works for them", would be evidence that they are correct, thus you are wrong.
As per your story of Saul/Paul, remember their weren't really "Christians" until well after Paul established the religion, you can also view the prophet Mahamad's "revelation" in the same light as Saul's, or even Joseph Smith's. But see, you [confidently] dismiss as false the personal word of Mohamad and Joseph, yet true the personal word of Saul. (WTF?)
See, the thing is... You confidently dismiss all other beliefs that compete with your own, even if/when they are remarkable similar, and are equally (un)reasonable and (il)logical. This is because you weigh it with confirmation bias.
Your God, as well as the God of the Muslims and the Mormons, are the same... The God of the Jews, as it is their religion all coming from the OT. Even they do not agree with you, yet Xians have hijacked and revised the God of the Jews to suit their own purposes. Note that this was also the God of Jesus, so you don't even have the same God as Jesus.
I know you cannot see the absurdity in this... But see, just as you can see the absurdity of many Muslim, Mormon, Hindu, or Scientology beliefs, ANYONE not inside of your box of dogma can equally see the absurdity in your beliefs.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 07:52am PT
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It is sensible to understand mind consciousness as a product of evolutionary process. It’s functions have provided humanity success in that regard.
The strangeness and mystery of consciousness are a given, but consciousness is inherently tied to the very structure of its physical generator the brain.
As well, that conscious “thing” within, that “thing” we know as the self, that “thing” that is the structure of our experience and knowing receptor of our experience is perhaps the most mysterious and difficult to understand.
A light bulb gives off light as a function of the energy fed through its structure, when the energy is cut off or the bulb is damaged the light ceases to exist… where does it go?
The experience of self, of feelings is a function of energy fed through the remarkable structure of our very physical brains. Alter that machine, damage it and individual experience is altered. Shut it off and that experience ceases… where does it go?
Nothing is more mysterious than self-awareness, nothing. But how does that mystery lead us to God?
Ya know... Last night's episode of Morgan Freeman's: Into The Wormhole on the Science Channel, was about "Is there a God/Creator"?
In it, there was a segment about a Neuroscientist doing research at a university who has identified a part of the brain, in the right temporal lobe, that he shows when stimulated gives the person a profound sense of connection to nonexistant entities...
He has volunteers participate in a "study on relaxation", where he places them in a dark quiet room, and monitors their brain waves with sensors on a helmet. After some time, he activates a small magnetic coil, no more powerful than that of a small electric motor. They are interviewed afterwards, and 80% report profoundly sensing a being(s) in the room with them [at the moment the coil is activated]. Most of them can even loosely descibe their appearance.
The point is, our brains are wired this way... He has shown that by experiment. And he points out, "imagine what a profound life changing effect that experience could/would have on someone if they were in a church pew, or at a point in their lives where they were 'searching' for answers".
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 14, 2010 - 08:32am PT
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After some time, he activates a small magnetic coil, no more powerful than that of a small electric motor. They are interviewed afterwards, and 80% report profoundly sensing a being(s) in the room with them [at the moment the coil is activated]. Most of them can even loosely descibe their appearance.
The point is, our brains are wired this way... He has shown that by experiment. And he points out, "imagine what a profound life changing effect that experience could/would have on someone if they were in a church pew, or at a point in their lives where they were 'searching' for answers".
These two examples are not equivalent and that's the point for spiritual people. It takes a magnetic coil inside of a special helmet to get that effect in the lab yet people have it happen without the magnetism while engaged in spiritual pursuits like praying, meditating, or chanting.
All this proves is that the brain has the capacity to sense a personal presence during certain conditions. We can see and measure the magnet, but cannot explain the other causes/ energies/ intelligences which produce it separately on occasion. A materialist will argue that someday we will, but until then, those who have had such experiences (one of many that can occur), have every right it seems to me, to believe that something unseen, from another parallel dimension (as spoken of in the world's great religions), had an influence on a particular part of their brain.
When they discover that they are happier individuals afterward, and more compassionate and giving to their fellow humans, they become even more convinced that the world's religions speak truthfully of an unseen reality. Their faith is based on their experience.
And wasn't the question asked over a thousand posts ago, why people believe in a God?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 14, 2010 - 08:38am PT
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That's 1 fat troll, huh, Jan?
The why of things.....Pfffft. I don't know or care.
Do as you will, for your own reasons. I'm cool with that.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 14, 2010 - 09:09am PT
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impudence is one of the nicest things about supertopo. paul is making sense to me again. werner wants to play neener-neener. i'm not a reductionist, john. you're reading me wrong if you think so.
crags, i know all about saul/paul. a lot of people have had similar experiences with belief, and not necessarily about jesus, as rrradam notes.
there is a certain style to these ancient, belief-oriented writings. if modern christian believers would read a bit of what was written then outside of their bible, they might stop trying to sound like these ancients, who are forever telling others they know more. but you seem sincere, crags, or at least cordial, and i'll rank you right behind climbera5. be nice to crags, fruc.
i'm not a christian, fred, which means i don't accept "as god's word" what you accept. as i've mentioned previously, however, i differ from those who tout a strict sort of atheistic, reductionist science. i've had some personal experience of the paranormal, i've made a small study of it, and i accept a disciplined approach to paranormal science. if you become familiar with this realm, you might begin to rethink that second meaning of miracle and all the long-ago magic-style events used by churches to claim credibility.
i wonder if this david chalmers is trying to enter that territory, largo. i wish you'd stop talking down about such things and asking people to read links, which i think is the great disease of blogging. fine, a link for people who may be interested, but not in lieu of an argument you're trying to make. if you've really mastered this material, i think you ought to be able to explain it to us lesser minds down here.
jennie--it seems the more context, the less sense. perhaps tertullian is giving us koans.
rrradam is someone i can get along with. that stimulation for the experience of the numinous (do you know that term, largo?) is interesting. i would say, just because you can stimulate an experience of god does not necessarily mean that god does not exist. the miracle (that word again) to me is that evolution should have produced the neurological apparatus that can produce such experience. an evolutionist would see convergence. as i say, why can't god be an open question? new information coming in all the time.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 14, 2010 - 09:49am PT
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just a short coda (actually going to work today).
to me, the great problem of christianity is its lack of spirituality and its reliance on the miraculous for credibility. largo here goes east for his spiritual grounding, as so many westerners have done. i suggest this is because of the bare cupboard at home. shouting at nonbelievers, "warning" them, doesn't make it very credible. people who have achieved something spiritually exude a certain peace and warmth as well. there is so little of that in the west.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 10:37am PT
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"I am thankful that we live in a country where we are allowed to choose the things we care to believe in, and be passionate about. And I respect those who have given thoughtful approach in their decision making process... "
Hear, hear!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 10:41am PT
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"You are the creator of your own illusion."
This statement covers ALL 'beliefs,' all illusions, all realities.
Boob boom (out go the lights!)
DMT
DMT, sometimes you are such a fruitcake.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 10:53am PT
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"Its very easy to take text out of context when trying to communicate via a keyboard for its difficult to express inflection or emphasis with emotion via facial exressions, body language etc. If ANYONE in this thread could teach us how to properly chat via text it would be Mr. Werner Braun for he has lived in this silent world for all his life and uses this as. I would guess as one of his primary tools of communication, ie; TTY/TDD, etc. God blessed you Werner!"
Wasn't aware of this. But calling people "leg humpers" on a regular basis might not help communications or understanding either.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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Corn Nut -- "DMT, sometimes you are such a fruitcake."
Hypocrite!
By the way you are a "Leg Humper" .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 14, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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Tony wrote: "i wonder if this david chalmers is trying to enter that territory, largo. i wish you'd stop talking down about such things and asking people to read links, which i think is the great disease of blogging. fine, a link for people who may be interested, but not in lieu of an argument you're trying to make. if you've really mastered this material, i think you ought to be able to explain it to us lesser minds down here."
Hey, I reserve the right to rip on you guys for the fun of it, and I'm open to be ripped on as well. If you can't be a wise ass here, and c*#k around, these discussions get too deadly.
For starters, I'm not trying to make an argument, per se, only pointing out the folly of a purely mechanistic idea about consciousness, whereby the evolved brain produces consciousness through an increasingly upward progression of systems, or emergent processes, triggered by an "effieient" electro-chemical activity. Try and find a highly reputed expert in the entire "mind science" field who says as much.
The belief in the mechanistic model has led people to believe that human consciousness can be replicated by a machine - which is like saying "life" can be infused into a Barbi doll once we have sufficient data. This has led silly folks the world over to seek the creation of detailed models of a brain by way of reverse engineering. If it is possible to trowl back and down through layer after layer of microcircuits, of an unknown design, and learn how the whole shebang works, why should it be impossible to construct a model of a brain, link by link, and to reproduce its functioning as a whole? The basic and incomprehensibly dim-witted false assumption here is that human consciousness can be appropriated entirely as a mechanistic function, like a car or a computer, and once you "understand" how the function is mechanically "created" by the biological machine, you have the baby licked. That's like thinking that if you could implant a big assed and super duper computer into the Venus de Milo's head, and change her marble corpus to something a bit softer, you'd have the hottest chick on the planet. Here we see the folly of considering life as merely a technical term.
I can understand people wanting to define consciousness by way of computer modeling and stimulus response mechanisms, but the experts write these explanations off as almost hopelessly childish and silly given the nature of mind.
JL
PS: If you trace back to the origins of every concept and perception, you get consciousness and light (or energy). One must suspect that they are one and the same. I find it exciting to see advances in study of the thinker/perceiver because it can only point even more clearly to what is at the source.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 11:58am PT
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These two examples are not equivalent and that's the point for spiritual people. It takes a magnetic coil inside of a special helmet to get that effect in the lab yet people have it happen without the magnetism while engaged in spiritual pursuits like praying, meditating, or chanting.
No... It is you who are missing the point, BECAUSE you are looking for any reason to dismiss anything that competes with the way you 'want' things to be.
By having the volunteer partake in a "relaxation study", they have no idea what it is really about... As if they knew, then the results would/could be biased, as is your thinking (I.e., Confirmation bias). Would you propose that they just "wait" for someone to have the experience while simply relaxing? See, the point is, he can make the experience happen, with the flip of a switch. It's a lab - For testing. And his test is transparent, and repeatable.
See, if, as you believe, chanting and praying brings about a connection to God, then that means that believers in ALL other religions, past and present, have connected with YOUR God. Shamins(sp?), the Prophet Mohamad, the Oracles of Delphi connecting to Appolo, etc... They all feel/felt profound connections. But see, you think all others are delusional, but your connection is real. (More confirmation bias - They're all delusional, but mine is real.)
The result of this test potentially accounts for all of that, irregardless of religious belief. In fact, it's not a far extention to use this result to even account for what John experiences when he meditates.
Deny... Deny... Ignore... Ignore...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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And just so people know my 'issue' with religion... Again, it's when it's taken too far, and impinges(sp?) on the rights of nonbelievers. (E.g., education [like the recent BS in Texas], women's rights [abortion, birth control, abuse], and crap like this:
June 14: Jarretta Hamilton was fired from her fourth-grade teaching position after telling her boss she had conceived a child before she married her husband. While her former employer, Southland Christian School, maintains it was a moral issue, she tells TODAY’s Ann Curry that she didn’t know that she would lose her job. http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/37683770/ns/today-today_people/?GT1=43001
Mind you... Bristol Palin, then a minor, wasn't even planning on marrying the guy, she gets knocked up, and now she speaks to Fundie Youth about 'abstainance'... The form of birth control that statistically has the worst rate of success.
See... If there were such a place as Heaven, as many Christians believe, it would be full of hipocrites.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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Brawny- you're so predictable. Get off my grass.
"Again, it's when it's taken too far, and impinges..."
Not just in education, either. In law.
"I reserve the right to rip on you guys for the fun of it..."
-damn straight.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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Agreed... As I'd said earlier. For example, "Blue Laws" are alive an well in many parts of the Bible Belt.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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Adam -- "See... If there were such a place as Heaven, as many Christians believe, it would be full of hypocrites."
That statement is immediately totally worthless and carries absolutely no weight.
Using the words "If there were such .." means you don't know and you're just guessing.
You need bonafide facts, baby, oh yeah that's right!
Because that's the argument you people always make yourselves ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
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"only pointing out the folly of a purely mechanistic idea about consciousness"
See it outside your small uninformed little box and you'd see you're totally dissing (disresecting) nature's mechanistic side... also mind's mechanistic side with a comment, otherwise attitude or perspective, like this.
Ground yourself in science education (including decades of engineering experience where you increasingly grow to appreciate the intimate close relationship between material, structure and function) and you'll get this "disrespecting" claim.
What do you know about comparators, integrators, differentiators, and a host of other circuit functions? You think cowboys or farmers (to pick on them) of a just a century ago could understand memory in terms of either silicon flip flops or neuronal circuitry.
Hold your horses, give it a hundred years. Do you even know what a flip flop is? or a comparator? or a high-q bandpass filter? or digital filtering? Insofar as you don't, your lenses are murky and why would you not see consciousness or sentience as a great mystery or something beyond the mechanistic everyday.
Human sentience (incl consciousness, qualia, etc.) is what the brain does. At least that is a "model" that is worth exploring and for some of us building on. Try it. The sky won't fall, it might even prove empowering.
Consciousness, mind, sentience, or perception... is not "above the law." In this case, for lack of a better word, the natural law. (But better words are coming, trust me.)
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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You need bonafide facts, baby, oh yeah that's right! And just like at rc.com, you have yet to give one. Just endless replies of 'woo'.
I have posted endless replies of "facts", baby... They just tend to be...
Ignored... Ignored... Denied... Denied...
...by the faithfull in favor of 'woo'.
(Remember, a definition of 'faith' is a strong belief in the absense of evidense, or even despite evidense to the contrary.)
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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Only you are constantly talking about faith and beliefs.
I'm talking about cold hard bonafide facts which you have none about the spiritual realm.
You are the one making all the arguments against this.
You need the cold facts otherwise all your talk is just evasive acts disguised as knowledge which renders you null and void.
But you have none, except pure mental speculations dreamed up in your fertile mind .....
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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Wow... Were you in the bathroom looking in the mirror when you made that reply?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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High Fructose-
You may be right but we aren't there yet. Meanwhile, all we have to go on for the materialist- reductionist model is promises that things will change in the future. The spiritual realm however, is working just fine right now.
rrrAdams-
You are the one in denial. I know a whole lot more about human brain function than you know about meditation, prayer, and yoga. So does Werner. And Largo knows more about philosophy than all of us put together. Part of reductionism you know is to set up rigid parameters and then deny that anything is valid outside of them. It's certainly true that most science is more predictable than most spiritual phenomena, but that doesn't mean the spiritual is bogus, it's just not scientifically predictable.
You wouldn't deny that people fall in love I'm sure, but who will fall in love and with whom can not be predicted with any certainty. This simply means the process of falling in love is not scientific, but it certainly is real. Likewise the realm of spirit.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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"And Largo knows more about philosophy than all of us put together."
What, another minion here? Authority in climbing does not make for authority outside climbing. I knew an authority in racquetball once who believed this made him an authority in non-racquetball areas. RIP.
This is perhaps the most harebrained thing I've ever heard in all your posts. Remember: religions and women don't get a free pass at the fire.
Laughable.
EDIT
"meditation, prayer, and yoga"
Yeah, I've seen it work. I've seen levitation in action. And wasn't it "meditation, prayer and yoga" too that was behind the development of corrective lenses and the polio vaccine and DNA forensics. Yeah, and the rumor is "meditation, prayer and yoga" will be giving us a new non-growth economic system that will (a) solve the problems of over-population and resource depletion and (b) beat the stuffing out of socialism and capitalism together. Can't wait.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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I know a whole lot more about human brain function than you know about meditation, prayer, and yoga. 1. And you know this "how"? I'll give you yoga, as I haven't looked into it much, but just "how" do you know what I know about prayer and meditation to even make that statement, let alone so confidently? Again, this shows the flaws in your thinking process... As does this directly false statement:Part of reductionism you know is to set up rigid parameters and then deny that anything is valid outside of them. Asking questions that aren't pertinant serve no purpose... When talking about what's wrong with a car, one talks within parameters to narrow it down... Whether or not one likes orange juice isn't valid to the discussion.
Science doesn't care what one thinks, or how one feels... It like tests, and repeatable results cannot be denied...
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
2. I may have been editing my reply when you composed this one, the one you are replying to, so you may wish to reread it, as I fleshed it out a bit more. So you have some key points to address to make it "go away"... You can't just throw out, "I know more than you", and that's it.
Copy and paste into a quote, then directly adress, as I do for you.
Unless or course, you are into...
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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I bet Jan doesn't know about impromotive prayer. I bet Jan doesn't know about revalorative prayer. Neither of which appeals to the supernatural. Neither of which appeals to a personal God (let alone God Jehovah or God Jesus) to intervene in the mechanistic process (in other words, in the physics and chemistry) of life.
Jan wrote-
"the materialist- reductionist model is promises that things will change"
This model is a "what is" model, in itself it "promises" nothing.
EDIT 10:47a It's in your implications. Plain as day.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:46pm PT
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High Fructose-
Stop trying to put words in my mouth so you can then insult me and try to knock them down!
I never said that meditation, prayer and yoga are superior to science. I never claimed that they had developed corrective lenses, the polio vaccine and DNA forensics. But neither has science developed art, music, poetry, spirituality or love.
Only a fool would say you have to be interested in one or the other but can't be interested in both.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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To whom are you saying that to? I didn't put words in your mouth, in fact I even copied and pasted your own words into a quote, then addressed it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 14, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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High fructose-
I have not heard of impromotive or revalorative prayer. I am well acquainted with Buddhist and Taoist prayer however, which does not appeal to a personal God. It does not appeal for intervention in natural processes either. Rather, both religions seek to align themselves with a deeper level of nature.
Meanwhile it's 3 am in Japan and I'm calling it a night.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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"Our tithe is half of your salary and your 21 year old first born daughters."
I wish! LMAO!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 14, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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A non materialistic notion of consciousness is a fascinating idea, also the idea that consciousness is the predicate to creation.
This does beg the question, however, what is the point of the consciousness containing organ we call the brain? Why would it become an evolutionary necessity?
How is it that material brain construction appears to determine how we think?
How is it that consciousness can be so easily altered and even eliminated by altering that material organ?
And how can we possibly explain the "ineluctable modality of the" senses?
It's all very mysterious, but there is still no direct link between mystery and deity.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 14, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Paul wrote:
A non materialistic notion of consciousness is a fascinating idea, also the idea that consciousness is the predicate to creation.
This does beg the question, however, what is the point of the consciousness containing organ we call the brain? Why would it become an evolutionary necessity?
How is it that material brain construction appears to determine how we think?
How is it that consciousness can be so easily altered and even eliminated by altering that material organ?
And how can we possibly explain the "ineluctable modality of the" senses?
It's all very mysterious, but there is still no direct link between mystery and deity.
Those are all very interesting points, Paul. I think that per your first point, the really cutting edge folks dealing with "mind" are not suggesting a non-materialistic model of consciousness in any absolute sense, but rather a kind of two-way causation works here, whereby non-material and material aspects are mutually dependent and influence one another al la space and "things."
The one way causation model is the purely material mechanistic model whereby "life" itself is seen to be mechanistically "produced" by lower level atomic activity, or else "life" is viewed as a mere abstraction from the base materialism itself. Here is the view that looks at a woman and merely sees a bunch of atoms and processes and a "person" who is simply the sum total of those material processes.
The idea that all that exists is matter, and that all life is merely a complex form or arrangement of matter which "produces" life, dates back to Empedocles (430 B.C.), so High Fructose and the other fundy materialists have been preaching a very old tune indeed. The history of philosophy is littered with the corpses of materialists. It looks like quantum science is looking much the same as well.
Ultimately, defining life encompasses the same challenges as defining consciousness: Neither are substances or mere functions, rather processes. The mechanistic view is helpful in analyzing the process at a given time, but it makes the basic error in believing that the map is the territory.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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"...all life is merely a complex form or arrangement of matter..." re: "merely" also, "just". Phraseology points to biases and bad habits. Life is a complex arrangement of matter PLUS a great deal more.
Don't think "arithmetic sum" (of the parts) think "synergistic sum" (of the parts) and remember you heard it here first. From HFCS.
EDIT
"so High Fructose and the other fundy materialists have been preaching a very old tune indeed. The history of philosophy is littered with the corpses of materialists."
Laughable. Watson and Crick and Paul Berg and Lubert Styrer and Author Kornberg are all materialists. Or were. P.S. "Materialist" is an outdated term. Kinda like atheist. Soon a new language and a new field will make this clear.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 14, 2010 - 03:29pm PT
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Whew! If I keep reading this thread I may switch from atheism to solipsism.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 14, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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A non materialistic notion of consciousness is a fascinating idea, also the idea that consciousness is the predicate to creation.
This does beg the question, however, what is the point of the consciousness containing organ we call the brain? Why would it become an evolutionary necessity?
How is it that material brain construction appears to determine how we think?
How is it that consciousness can be so easily altered and even eliminated by altering that material organ?
And how can we possibly explain the "ineluctable modality of the" senses?
It's all very mysterious, but there is still no direct link between mystery and deity. Good points. And to carry that a little further...
Many of us define our conciousness, or at least a major part of it, as "us"... The voice in our head when we think, our memories, and experiences, ALL shaped by our life experinces. Big difference between how I think now, and how I did when I was 30, 20, 10, or 5 years old. Many Xians believe that their conciousness will live on, in their spirit/soul for eternity in Heaven.
Now... Does that mean that in Heaven there will be souls with the conciousness of self-centered toddlers, throwing tantrums? What about the 'conciousness' of an infant's soul? Doesn't even know how to think, since we ALL "think" in words, and that takes language. Or, how about those with Alzheimers? There thinking isn't what it used to be.
So, for those of you who believe that their 'conciousness' will live on in Heaven, or Hell [wishing we'd believed in Jesus], how do you reconcile this?* How do you account for the wide range of maturity and mental acuity amongst souls that must be in Heaven?
It would be nice if you dont' just repeat what you've been told by someone, or make something up yourself... Please, explain "why" you believe this. Is there a scriptural basis? No.
*Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 14, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
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Fructose wrote: “Don't think "arithmetic sum" (of the parts) think "synergistic sum" (of the parts) and remember you heard it here first. From HFCS.
--
Dood, this is very old news, and leads me to believe you simply do not read the material per this subject. Or ever what I wrote earlier: Mechanistic views posit it this way: The evolved brain produces consciousness through an increasingly upward progression of systems, or emergent processes, triggered by an "efficient" electro-chemical activity.
Again, this notion – your “synergistic sum” - has been around for as long as it’s been mistaken: centuries.
-
Moving on:
I wrote: "so High Fructose and the other fundy materialists have been preaching a very old tune indeed. The history of philosophy is littered with the corpses of materialists."
Fructose ranted back: Laughable. Watson and Crick and Paul Berg and Lubert Styrer and Author Kornberg are all materialists.
---
That’s true, these last doods were all materialists. But you’d be very much mistaken if you thought I wasn’t up on their work. '
Berg retired from Standord around 2000 I think. He was basically a genetic engineer whose main focus was recombinant DNA research. Interestingly, Berg is the Chairman of Whitehead Institute Board of Advisory Scientists at MIT. But that’s Jack Whitehead they’re talking about, not Alfred North Whitehead, the noted mathematician and philosopher who did to death materialism in Process and Reality.
Anyhow, Stryer is a cell biologist, also out of Standford, and Kornberg is a biochemist, also out of Stanford. Ergo, you must have gone to Stanford.
Unfortunately for you, none of these guys mentioned was remotely hooked up with leading edge consciousness or “mind” work, so aside from glib name dripping, they add nothing to the conversation.
And “materialism” is not dead, though the ideas are long dead per “mind.” You can use another name if you want, but the concepts go back to ancient philosophers, as noted.
So basically, intemperate speech and glib but specious erudition will do nothing to further your mechanistic cause. It’s dead in the water.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 14, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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I, for one, believe in Astrophes. Why? Because all the evidence points to Astrophes. Astrophes, like Hypercrates, is a personification (or deification) of fate or higher power. (cf: Grim Reaper, personification of death). But most importantly He's the personification (or deification or "God") of a set fixed fate.
To have a god concept or two besides God Jehovah or God Jesus is a good thing for the West. Just like having more than one sport is a good thing. Just like having more than one kind of music is a good thing. Variation and diversity, enabling evolution, make life more robust.
Of course if you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, it is only belief in Jehovah or Jesus that counts. In a Christian or Muslim culture, for example, I could never be elected to public office for "believing in" Astrophes instead of Jehovah. -A true injustice that needs righted.
EDIT: Oh, I cannot wait to respond to the preceding post. Already I sense raw meat for the barbie. But now it's off to... water my grass.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 14, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
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rrrADAM- " Many Xians believe that their consciousness will live on, in their spirit/soul for eternity in heaven."
At the second coming, our physical bodies will be resurrected(and united with our spirit)and we will thus be forever. Jesus was the first to be resurrected, and He was recognized, touched, and ate food etc. Adam and Eve were designed to live for ever. God had/has a perfect plan for all His creation, and He will bring it to fruition. These "spirits/souls" you speak of will return mature, and be perfect physically and spiritually. To live and reign with Christ. Initially here on earth(for 1,000 yrs)...
I have a spiritual relationship with Jesus Christ. What He has done in my life, and His personal revelations to me over the past 50+ years, leaves no(0.000%)doubt in my mind that He is God. There is nothing that, man, science, or any new discovery that could/would change my belief. I am 100% certain.
It is not something I can prove, it is something that was proved to me, through a revelation/relationship from/with Him. It is done on a personal level, and you make the final decision.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 14, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Man, this is taking up too much time but so what. Here is a nice summery - from a leading "mind scientist" - of the challenges we face in adopting a fundy materialist model as anything but wishful and simplistic thinking:
What is the argument, really? Just this:
Mechanical/reductionist explanations portray consciousness as an emergent property of classical computer-like activities in the brain's neural networks. The prevailing views from this camp are that 1) patterns of neural network activities correlate with mental states, 2) synchronous network oscillations in thalamus and cerebral cortex temporally bind information, and 3) consciousness mechanically emerges as a novel property of computational complexity among neurons. However, these approaches fall short in explaining certain fundamental features of consciousness, such as:
• The nature of subjective experience, or 'qualia'- our 'inner life' (Chalmers' "hard problem");
• Binding of spatially distributed brain activities into unitary objects in vision, and a coherent sense of self, or 'oneness';
• Transition from pre-conscious processes to consciousness itself;
• Non-computability, or the notion that consciousness involves a factor which is neither random, nor algorithmic, and that consciousness cannot be simulated (Penrose, 1989, 1994, 1997);
• Free will; and,
• Subjective time flow.
Brain imaging technologies demonstrate anatomical location of activities which appear to correlate with consciousness, but there is no evidence whatsoever that activity in these regions ‘create” consciousness, any more than consciousness can be said to “create” activity within the brain. Put differently, reductionism/functionalism/ materialism/physicalism have all revealed brain activity associated with consciousness. But is this activity equivalent to consciousness? Is the map the territory itself? There is simply no evidence to substantiate this claim. None whatsoever.
How do neural firings lead to thoughts and feelings? The conventional (a.k.a. functionalist, reductionist, materialist, physicalist, computationalist) approach argues that neurons and their chemical synapses are the fundamental units of information in the brain, and that conscious experience emerges when a critical level of complexity is reached in the brain's neural networks.
The basic idea is that the mind is a computer functioning in the brain (brain = mind = computer). However in fitting the brain to a computational view, such explanations totally omit incompatible neurophysiological details:
• Widespread apparent randomness at all levels of neural processes (is it really noise, or underlying levels of complexity?);
• Glial cells (which account for some 80% of brain);
• Dendritic-dendritic processing;
• Electrotonic gap junctions;
• Cytoplasmic/cytoskeletal activities; and,
• Living state (the brain is alive!)
A further difficulty is the absence of testable hypotheses in emergence theory. No threshold or rationale is specified; rather, consciousness "just happens.”
Finally, the complexity of individual neurons and synapses is not accounted for in such arguments. Since many forms of motile single-celled organisms lacking neurons or synapses are able to swim, find food, learn, and multiply through the use of their internal cytoskeleton, can they be considered more advanced than neurons?
The linchpin here is that "consciousness cannot be simulated." Only functions can be replicated by computer designs.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 14, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
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Thanks for that post Largo.
To expand the computer analogy, the brain may very well be the Hardware that contains the "ram memory and hard drives" that comprise the software that enable and limit the extent to which consciousness can function in an individual.
That said, that computer could get information, images, video, and such from wireless internet. You can smash the CPU that crunches the information streaming from the web and the screen goes blank. That doesn't mean that information isn't still there in the electromagnetic realm, the machine just can't receive it anymore.
So synapses, neurons and such might be the conductors associated with the contents of the mind, but consciousness itself is another story
Peace
Karl
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apogee
climber
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Jun 14, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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"I, for one, believe in Astrophes."
I, for one, believe in Apostrophes.
'
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Bye!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 14, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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Too much mercury in swordfish, try wild salmon.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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You guys are crazy.
You all should be smokin up some crack climbs instead.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 14, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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Unfortunately Werner I'm relegated to sport climbing tomorrow, but I'll be doing some crack climbing in the Black Canyon on Thursday.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 14, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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I have enjoyed this thread, esp. Largo's posts, but like Donini, I will be pumping high counrty granite this weekend as well.
Rave on boys!
Tony
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apogee
climber
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Jun 14, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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I believe in Happy Days
I believe in Joanie Loves Crotchie
I believe in all that TV crap
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 14, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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if largo really knew how such-and-such was covered in greek philosophy 201, he'd be able to quote and explain. telling fructose he's old hat and just leaving it at that--for all we know, he's making it up.
computers and electronics parallel our brains and nervous systems. this has been an insightful metaphor about ourselves which sprang up in our very lifetimes. trying to "recreate" consciousness in a compter would be a fool's quest, at least for now. can't we do any better than that in "mind work"?
with due respect to a guy who's a real mensch in many ways, i think largo may still be staggering from educational overload. that isn't a bad thing. digesting an intense graduate education is not an easy or quick process. the education is always worthwhile, but it doesn't become useful just because you pass the exams and get the degree. my own experience was that it's best just to shove it away and try not to pose as an expert until you really feel like one. of course, if you happen to land a job as an adjunct prof, you don't have that luxury.
i think the big problem with academic philosophy is that it's afraid of the extensive and boggling fields of science and has too much invested in its literary past. fructose here is excited about science, and he's indignant about religious people who ignore it. he doesn't deserve to be dismissed as a "materialist".
in order to philosophize well about science, you have to get to the cutting edge of it. i think the best philosophers of science are scientists themselves who have the inclination to address this aspect of their work. there aren't very many of them.
both evolutionary theory and modern physics have made philosophy a whole new ballgame. convergence is the key concept in evolution. things evolve again and again in the history of life, and the emergence of our extraordinary species, many think, was inevitable. despite the intense research in neuroscience and consciousness, i haven't seen anyone with the balls to leap out onto the god thread from there. am i wrong?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 14, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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Artificial intelligence/being seems impossible.
It is precisely the sense of self and the self's need for protection that is unachievable in a simple action and reaction computer scenario.
And it is that sense of self awareness out of which the immediate response of vulnerability is inevitable that is the real mystery of consciousness.
Do we call that self awareness soul?
It's such a compelling mystery that ties itself irrevocably to desire: the need to know and intuition: the belief we do know.
The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:
"this universe was nothing but the self in the form of a man. It looked around and saw that there was nothing but itself, whereupon its first shout was, "It is I!" Then he was afraid."
Nobody has solved the mystery of self awareness, but its power in an evolutionary sense is really undeniable, since there is nothing that motivates courage and survival like the unpleasant self awareness of fear. Certainly, everybody on this thread has had the pleasant experience of overcoming fear and "going for it." Victory over fear is sweet.
Consciousness, self awareness, fear as evolutionary tools?
But these tools when not employed for survival weigh heavily on us and require a temperance through some sort of mythological reconciliation and so we believe.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 14, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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So, serious questions here for the Jesus folk. What exactly does it mean when you repeat the tropes "We are all sinners" and "He died for our sins"?
How is this pair of syllogisms not merely a one-two guilt-trip?
I can understand the appeal this all might have if, say, one has done or experienced something especially heinous and feels the need for redemption, as in the case of jailhouse or deathbed conversions. And I can see how someone not quite sure of themselves could be bullied into a state of acquiescence with the threat of eternal torment if they don't toe the dogmatic lines that invariably follow up on these claims. But the way they get repeated over and over to the point of zombification has always seemed very suspicious, considering that neither one makes any kind of particular sense. Is a newborn baby already a sinner? How can someone die "for" the cumulative "sins" of everyone else? Why does a self-proclaimed masochistic scapegoat deserve such breathless adoration? Are you all just looking for atonement for unfortunate circumstances in your personal lives, and your friend Mr. Jesus fits that bill perfectly? If so, what makes you think everyone else needs to take your medicine, when they might not share your symptoms?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jun 14, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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"When it is recalled that until the Christian era the underworld was never regarded as a hostile area, that all the gods were useful and essentially friendly to man despite occasional lapses; when we see the steady and methodical inculcation into humanity of the idea of man's worthlessness- until redeemed- the necessity of the Devil may become evident as a weapon, a weapon designed and used time and time again in every age to whip men into a surrender to a particular church or church-state."
Arthur Miller - The Crucible
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 14, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Fundy materialists vs fundy Christians. Nice phrase but count me out. I'm not part of that battle.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 15, 2010 - 12:07am PT
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Largo wrote:
The linchpin here is that "consciousness cannot be simulated."
which seems like a very definite statement. Can it be backed up? Can it be proved? I'd be interested.
As far as I know, there is nothing that excludes the materialistic explanation of consciousness.
The fact that we don't yet know how to explain it in that manner is not a proof that it cannot be explained in that manner. And scolding disapproval notwithstanding, it is a legitimate hypothesis to pursue, and it will be pursued, whether or not there is an opinion by some that it is a dead end.
There seems to be plenty of very good work that still leads in the direction of a materialistic explanation. A lot of this has to do with observing brain malfunction through accident, disease, surgical intervention, etc, and observing the consequence on the subjects consciousness.
The computer analogy is not a failure, rather, our particular notion of engineering a computer is quite different from the evolutionary product that we possess, also a computer without doubt, and one that we don't fully understand yet.
Most importantly, we don't understand what questions to ask. Perhaps Largo can provide a definition of consciousness so that our continued discussions can focus a bit more precisely on what it is we are arguing over here.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 15, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Werner,
Although not a chat room, edumacate these novel writers the etiquette behind keeping their posts shorter as opposed to writing lengthy responses.
Edit: Then again, maybe this doesn't apply to these forums?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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cintune!
I know that you are somewhat familiar with my crossing paths at an early age(8)with a psychopathic killer. Only 31 days later, I walked into his living room alone and devoid of fear(he had been electrocuted at work and was wrapped head to toe in bandages)closed the door behind me, and stared into his dark eyes.
The only emotion I felt during that encounter were bitterness, anger, and hate. I remember thinking, "He is as good as dead, he'll never be able to hurt anyone again!" And I simply turned around and walked out, rarely thinking of him again.
Four years later, I was getting on my bicycle when I suddenly flashed back to that very moment. And once again I was staring deep into his dark eyes, angry and bitter.
Suddenly I was struck with the over whelming feeling of guilt. It didn't come from my heart, that I was sure of. Because I felt as though I had every right and reason in the world to hate this guy. I recall spinning around and looking up at God and saying "Why should I feel guilty, after what he had done to me?"
I was all to familiar with Gods conviction of wrongs(sin)by the age of 12. For such things as swearing or picking on someone etc. He would let me know when He wasn't happy, and I always agreed.
But that one time I was certain He had made a mistake/was wrong...
Of course He wasn't, but it wasn't until years later that I understood His wisdom, grace, and mercy for bringing it to my attention early on.
Well cintune, only God the Holy Spirit can convict someone of wrong(sin), a trespass against His holy nature. Unfortunately some people have hardened their hearts to His prodding.
A simple analogy that everyone has heard is that not any bit, no matter how small, of darkness can exist with pure light. Take a closet or box for instance, can both light and dark be present at the same time?
"God is light, in Him there is no darkness."
And to paraphrase Jesus "To even look at a women with lust, is the same as rape, and anger against someone is the same as murder!"
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Edit: "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven will also forgive you your wrongdoing. But if you don't forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your wrongdoing." Mark 11:25-26
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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Sometimes greater clarity results from using a different example, so I'd like to switch to linguistics which has also considered both material and non material phenomena of the brain.
How is it that the physical entity of the brain can produce a nonmaterial thought which can be expressed as spoken and understood words? More intriguing is the fact that there are over 6,000 languages in use today yet they all fall within three types of grammar. So much complexity of biochemistry and vocabulary, yet so simple an organizational structure. This would seem to indicate that the structure of the brain is somehow limited to only three different sets of linguistic structure.
Then take the example of perfect pitch. Less than 1% of western people Indo European languages have it, yet 30% of Chinese people speaking tonal languages do. Clearly the nature of the two languages, both nonmaterial entities, has altered physical brain function.
Next we learn that language is primarily processed in the left side of the brain and studies of brain injured people reveal that Indo-European languages and math are lost if the left side of the brain is injured yet East Asians can still write in Chinese characters and calculate with a mental abacus even though they can't speak. So it seems that the type of language and cultural representation one uses, activates different portions of the brain. Another demonstration of a non physical entity influencing biochemistry and electrical conductivity.
A final example to consider is why some people and we are no where near predicting who, are able to rewire their brains through will power, also a non material and immeasurable entity, and regain most of their functions though large portions of their brain are damaged or missing.
The materialists are right when they say that damaging or altering the physical structure of the brain affects cognition. However, it's also clear that the use of those mysterious nonphysical qualities of thought, speech, emotion, and will power can also alter the brain.
It seems to me there's room for both explanations and perhaps some that we haven't even considered yet.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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Remember, when using little "g" god you are referring to satan and capital "G" God when referring to the Creator, the Truth. It is what we ought to do (the least we can do).
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:04am PT
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Frodrick,
God is your fairy tale, and god is everyone else's fairy tale; that's the only difference.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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The linchpin here is that "consciousness cannot be simulated."
which seems like a very definite statement. Can it be backed up? Can it be proved? I'd be interested.
Perhaps Largo can provide a definition of consciousness so that our continued discussions can focus a bit more precisely on what it is we are arguing over here.
----
For starters, some of you guys are giving me too much credit in assuming I'm the one concocting the arguments against fundy materialism. That comes straight out of hard core neuroscience, and the questions they have are so far insurmountable.
As far as defining consciousness, let me give it some thought. Definitions are tricky with non-things.
My sense of this is that consciousness is akin to energy in that it cannot be created or destroyed, but it is just another aspect or "thing" in the larger, borderless container that is "mind," which is itself "empty."
But this deserves some special thought.
And Tony, Greek philosophy is not my field but I can go there if needed but what's the point of flashing erudition on this list. This is a casual conversation and show offs bore me. Quoting Philosophy 200 undergrad material? You gotta be joshing...
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:32am PT
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and there is hardcore neuroscience that is taking a materialistic approach to consciousness also, without the other stuff... and is making progress.
...so your definition leaves a lot of room, it isn't quite a definition at all, really. "Akin to energy" is a metaphor, or an analogy. If analogy, then are you saying that what we know about energy applies to the mind? Energy is, after all, something that we can quantify, measure and experiment with... we can define it, but you have offered up nothing so detailed in discussing consciousness.
Instead, you have subsumed it in something you refer to as "mind" yet you haven't offered a definition of that, either...
Now if you are saying that these things cannot be defined, than I agree with you that any scientific approach fails. Here we revert back to some inner belief, some subjective experience (or non-experience).
But I suspect that is where we are, trying to get a definition of just what "consciousness" is... not easy, but not insurmountable either, but that is just my own way of having faith.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 15, 2010 - 05:58am PT
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I've just been reading the Dalai Lama's most recent book, Toward a True Kinship of Faiths: How the World's Religions Can Come Together, in which he states that there are three major positions on religion (all of which have been expressed on this thread). There is the view that sees God as a personal creator (the Abrahamic religions), the view that ultimate reality is impersonal (the Eastern religions), and the view that there is no God at all, adhered to by modern secularists.
Rather than focussing on the differences, he maintains that what they all share in common is a belief that human individuals and societies will function better and certainly be happier if they set compassion as their goal. In other words, results are more important than foundational beliefs.
One thing he suggests is that there ought to be a world symposium of religious leaders to decide on the ethics of the various issues facing humankind. This gathering would also include of course, those who are not religious but have a sense of universal ethics and compassion.There would be irreconcilable difference on some issues, particularly it seems, on sexual and reproductive issues. Nevertheless, if all major ethical leaders of the world could agree on things like basic human rights and a few ecological issues, it would be much harder for world leaders to reject those views.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 07:36am PT
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At the second coming, our physical bodies will be resurrected(and united with our spirit)and we will thus be forever. Jesus was the first to be resurrected, and He was recognized, touched, and ate food etc. Adam and Eve were designed to live for ever. God had/has a perfect plan for all His creation, and He will bring it to fruition. These "spirits/souls" you speak of will return mature, and be perfect physically and spiritually. To live and reign with Christ. Initially here on earth(for 1,000 yrs)...
OK... You just regurgitated what you've been taught, which is why I specifically said:
It would be nice if you dont' just repeat what you've been told by someone, or make something up yourself... Please, explain "why" you believe this. Is there a scriptural basis?
Again... "WHY" do you believe this? Why will the 'spirits/souls' "return mature, and be perfect physically and spiritually."? Where do you get that from? Does the 'source / evidence' to support that belief warrant such confidense?
And, how would that work? Please, use for an example the soul of an infant... What would his/her life experiences consist of? And, since one has to accept Christ to be saved, how would infant souls even be saved? Or do you suggest that ALL infant souls are automatically saved (again: WHY?), even if they are children of say Muslims, Hindus, or even Satanists?
Please... Address these points, as it really looks like you are just making this up, or believing what someone else has made up without really thinking about it.
There is nothing that, man, science, or any new discovery that could/would change my belief. I am 100% certain. See, that's the thing... "IF" you are wrong, there is absolutely no way for you to know, thus you are stuck, since "NOTHING" can convioe you otherwise.
To show you what I'm talking about... Think of all the religions, past and present, that you obviously know are wrong. Yet believers in those religions were just as confident as you, and they were wrong, huh? Just as "NOTHING" could convince them they were wrong, the same goes for you.
Science isn't selling certitude... YOU ARE! And worse, you do it unreasonably, as you will not even consider that you may be wrong.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jun 15, 2010 - 07:38am PT
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language is
the key.
i really love
what jan said:
You wouldn't deny that people fall in love I'm sure, but who will fall in love and with whom can not be predicted with any certainty. This simply means the process of falling in love is not scientific, but it certainly is real. Likewise the realm of spirit.
some interesting stuff
in this thread.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 08:33am PT
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language is
the key.
i really love
what jan said:
You wouldn't deny that people fall in love I'm sure, but who will fall in love and with whom can not be predicted with any certainty. This simply means the process of falling in love is not scientific, but it certainly is real. Likewise the realm of spirit.
some interesting stuff
in this thread.
What Jan said can be said about quantum mechanichs, as the location or state of a quantum object cannot be predicted with "certainty", but it can be predicted probabalistically with a high degree of accuracy. And you know what, quantum mechanics / theory is a "science", in fact we understand it enough that you can type that message to the net from your computer, we can make optical lenses, determine the half-life of a radioisotope, etc...
There is a lot in science that is counterintuitive (E.g., double slit experiment), yet it is very real. Looking for God in the things we don't fully understand the physical nature of is like saying God is responsible for the results of the double slit experiment. That's the 'God of the Gaps', and if you believe in this God, room for him is getting smaller as the gaps in our knowledge get smaller.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 08:51am PT
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• The nature of subjective experience, or 'qualia'- our 'inner life' (Chalmers' "hard problem");
• Binding of spatially distributed brain activities into unitary objects in vision, and a coherent sense of self, or 'oneness';
• Transition from pre-conscious processes to consciousness itself;
• Non-computability, or the notion that consciousness involves a factor which is neither random, nor algorithmic, and that consciousness cannot be simulated (Penrose, 1989, 1994, 1997);
• Free will; and,
• Subjective time flow. All of this is not limited to humans, as the same things apply to many animals to varying degrees, some even exceeding our abilities, including all primates, cetaceans, pigs, dogs, cats, horses, elephants, etc... The humbolt squid has the fastest nervous system of all creatures on the planet.
So, relative to the subject of this thread (God, evidenced by our conciousness), by your logic, this would mean that they too have the capacity to experience and communicate with God, or that they too have souls/spirits?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:16am PT
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ah, the bay of fundy--don't get caught by the bore!
(sorry, couldn't resist that one.)
john, you were the one who brought up empedocles, and that's about all you did, bring him up. you aren't the only one guilty of making a reference and acting as though it proves a point. gobee is master of this, and i don't think he's even been to college yet.
somehow i get the feeling largo is playing zazen games with us, accusing others of specious erudition while being so obviously speciously erudite himself. people in awe of his climbing career just have to stop taking him so seriously. think jeddai mind trick. it's what they do in soto. my theory is he's bucking for promotion to full guru and using us for practice.
interesting linguistic material, jan.
and fred, couth up. the little "g" gods are all pagan and have names like zeus, demeter and vishnu. none of them are named satan. stop making stuff up, people. there's no such thing as fundy materialism either.
i know fructose and doctorF will hate me for this, but i'm going to try to inject some outside-but-related material too. orthodox christians will have no trouble with it. their ready explanation will be satan and his pals. scientific atheists will sink into information bias. i think the truth is squarely in the middle.
the evidence is strong. you'll find it in john keel's reporting of the extraordinary events in the ohio river valley in the late 60s. you'll find it in thelma moss's compendium, "the probability of the impossible". if you ever watched that movie "the entity", it was not too loosely based on the experiences of moss's graduate students, focused on a house in culver city.
what? weird "entities"? apparently totally spiritual, capable of speech and communication with humans somehow, but in a strange way less than human. they seem to crave and beg for human attention. they can get kinda violent. they aren't seductive devils.
yes, whatever such entities may be, whether permanently or temporily extant, they are apparently not connected to brain and nerve tissue, although they may once have been. entities make a case for mind or spirit beyond the material, but still, they continue to affect the material.
there was a great purge of heretics like moss from academia during the 1970s. the "mind work" largo seems so glib about has taken place outside of the heresy of the paranormal. for my money, it has been done in a vacuum.
jan, the dalai lama doesn't understand that fight is built into human nature. face it, compassion gets boring after awhile. tibetans never had to fight much, just like the swiss. i think the answer is to put mountains in flat countries.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:33am PT
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An 'act of God'?
(AP) MONROE, Ohio — A six-story-tall statue of Jesus Christ with his arms raised along a highway was struck by lightning in a thunderstorm Monday night and burned to the ground, police said. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/king-of-kings-ohio-jesus_n_612360.html
re: language and conciousness...
We think with words... Just try "thinking" without them, as we construct out thoughts and think things through with words.
It wasn't until we developed language that we really took off as a species. Much of our brain is devoted to this, and some think that the process that lead to where we are now was a self-supporting process: better communication lead to better hunting in groups, which lead to more meat, which lead to bigger brains, which lead to better hunting, wich lead to bigger brains, etc... Again, this isn't limited to only humans. BUT, our level of communication is unique, hence our technology... Before we could talk, there wasn't even the wheel.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:46am PT
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All I can say is "Someone" has a perverse sense of irony -
6-story Jesus statue in Ohio struck by lightning
(AP) – 50 minutes ago
MONROE, Ohio — A six-story-tall statue of Jesus Christ with his arms raised along a highway was struck by lightning in a thunderstorm Monday night and burned to the ground, police said.
The "King of Kings" statue, one of southwest Ohio's most familiar landmarks, had stood since 2004 at the evangelical Solid Rock Church along Interstate 75 in Monroe, just north of Cincinnati.
The lightning strike set the statue ablaze around 11:15 p.m., Monroe police dispatchers said.
The sculpture, 62 feet tall and 40 feet wide at the base, showed Jesus from the torso up and was nicknamed Touchdown Jesus because of the way the arms were raised, similar to a referee signaling a touchdown. It was made of plastic foam and fiberglass over a steel frame, which is all that remained early Tuesday.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:48am PT
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dolphins have bigger brains, rrrad, and more convolutions as well. but computer science has shown us that bigger is not necessarily better. the microchips kept getting smaller.
there is considerable communication among the "lesser" animals, though none have developed language like we have. interestingly, gorillas have been taught working vocabularies of about 500 words, about the same number of kanji (chinese) characters the average japanese must learn for basic literacy in their cantankerous writing system. maybe jan will weigh in on this.
conway-morris, my pet evolutionist, suggests that what made humans "take off" is merely the fact that we're land animals and can therefore smelt metal, something a dolphin will never do. i believe there is a strong relationship between manual dexterity and the growth of brain size in primates. octopi have great dexterity, and they've headed toward big brains too.
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ec
climber
ca
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:58am PT
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6-story Jesus statue in Ohio struck by lightning
Take THAT plastic Jesus!
It's a sign...
Is God Irrelevant?
By Davidson Loehr, Religion Dispatches
Posted on June 14, 2010, Printed on June 15, 2010
http://www.alternet.org/story/147194/
While the media still milks the chattering and snarling between theists and atheists, most people are bored by this show, and many have quietly moved into a more productive position. Growing numbers of people don’t particularly care whether or not there are gods since, even if there are, they don’t seem able to do anything in our world. If they’re omnipotent, they appear to be indifferent to the small and large-scale wars, tragedies, and slaughters around us. If they’re impotent, who needs them?
Even when people are reflexively tempted to thank God for saving them from a disaster that may have killed hundreds or thousands of other people, they don’t want to say it too loudly -- because they know someone may ask them, rhetorically, what their God had against the thousands he let die. Even bromides about God have lost much of their usefulness.
Still, with or without gods, we cannot escape the existential questions that have underwritten all the religions—and most civil codes of law—throughout human history:
Who am I?
What am I serving that will outlive me and carry my love and my work forward?
How should I live so that when I look back on my life, whether a year or decades from now, I can honestly be glad I’ve lived the way I did?
Theologians, ministers, and active congregants may say, correctly, that their religions still offer some responses to these most basic human questions. But theologians and preachers can no longer claim (and anyway are no longer granted) any particular authority for their differing, often warring, prescriptions.
Christine Wicker, author of The Fall of the Evangelical Nation, and David T. Stone, author of The American Church in Crisis, are among the authors citing research that shows a dismal picture of American religion:
• Christian churches are losing two million people a year.
• Between just 2000-2005, church attendance declined in all fifty states.
• No matter what people may tell pollsters about their church habits, when you count the bodies in the pews, fewer than 18% of Americans attend any church regularly; 82% don’t.
• When asked to rate eleven groups in terms of respect, non-Christians rated evangelicals tenth. Only prostitutes ranked lower. After the stories of hypocritical preachers and political moralists caught with paid lovers, it might be interesting to ask the prostitutes about that ranking.
Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens are dismissed as “New Atheists” by many of the faithful. Others see them as today’s prophets. As much as anything, their attacks seem like the moves of predators taking out the weakest members of the herd. Wherever we come down, we have become used to reading—or skipping—broad dismissals of religion like these:
“There’s no longer evidence for a need of God, even less of Christ. The so-called traditional churches look like they are dying.”
“A remarkable culture-shift has taken place around us. The most basic contours of American culture have been radically altered. The so-called Judeo-Christian consensus of the last millennium has given way to a post-modern, post-Christian, post-Western [culture]… Clearly, there is a new narrative, a post-Christian narrative, that is animating large portions of this society. The post-Christian narrative… is based on an understanding of history that presumes a less tolerant past and a more tolerant future, with the present as an important transitional step.”
“Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. Democracy requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason.”
What gives these particular critiques more power is that, in fact, they don’t come from atheists, but from people who are profoundly invested in religion. In order, these three quotes came from Pope Benedict XVI, Dr. R. Albert Mohler (president of the Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, KY—one of the world’s largest), and Barack Obama.
Like it or not, since the 19th century, religion has lost most of its authority as the go-to place for our enduring questions, yearnings, stories and role models. Other stories, other myths, other people have become not only more appealing, but also better at helping us frame our abiding questions and experiences.
In dangerous times, these young people identified with the heroes most able to inspire them, linking their plight with that of an imaginary Na’vi race light years and centuries away. Younger people are surrounded by vivid and accessible myths that have taken the place of the Bible’s traditional role in providing the framework and role models for our lives.
Throughout the 20th century, religion’s stories lost their competitive edge. Books, movies, radio, television, and now (as in the case of James Cameron’s Avatar) computer-generated images that can create a seamless blend of our world and a fantasy world, offering images and a moral that inspire hundreds of millions of people around the world—people of any or no religion—with the role models and moral scripts for which they hunger.
Yes, there are also films from the dark side. Unforgiven, Pulp Fiction, and No Country for Old Men come to mind. But even in these movies where senseless evil wins, we know that these stories have crossed a line far beyond the moral and ethical acceptability: the overwhelming majority of us simply know better. The Bible also has many immoral and psychopathic stories; disobedient teenagers are stoned, non-virginal brides are sentenced to death, Yahweh orders the slaughter every man, woman and child in a village—and worse. The point, in both cases, is that we do know the difference between good and evil well enough to know whether movies, religions, or world events have crossed over the line—at least after the adrenalin rush wears off. The worldwide outrage at the continuing saga of the sexual abuse of children by priests, covered up by their superiors—all the way up to and including the Pope—is a clear illustration.
The Good News, Thanks to Evolutionary Sciences
Scientific fields like ethology (comparative animal behavior) have observed, studied, and often filmed many interactions among animals including chimpanzees, bonobos, monkeys, dogs, rats, dolphins, hawks, elephants, and other species that we recognize immediately as akin to our own sense of fair play, fairness, empathy, and compassion. It is becoming clear that we get our cooperative and moral sensitivities from the same place we get our territoriality, sexual jealousy, and aggression. We weren’t born in “original sin” nor in “original blessing.” We were born with a mixed bag of potential that tilts toward goodness. In social animals like humans, apes, monkeys, dogs, dolphins, and thousands more, we are born incomplete, unfinished, and our potential requires some shaping from our societies. We’re born with the capacities for both good and evil, and “nature” can be either refined or fouled by our social environment. Surely this provides some insight as to why 4% of Americans are said to be sociopaths, 30-100 times more than in Asian countries.
While we are born with a human nature tilting toward good, we can cross over into evil with frightening ease. The well-documented story about the rise of Nazi Germany is as good a case as any. The German people were born neither better nor worse than people around the world. But they showed us the power of charismatic leaders in acquiescent societies, uniting the people in hatred against scapegoat groups that included Jews, Poles, Gypsies, homosexuals, and intellectuals. Both the Catholic Church and the Protestant “German Christian” churches aided, abetted, and covered for the slaughter of millions of “God’s children.”
It is a bit ironic that sciences are beginning to present—with persuasive documentation (or video clips on YouTube)—evidence that other species behave better than this; that we are the only species that almost routinely kills many members of its own species. The complicity of most churches in Nazi Germany presents a poor argument that the churches have either the needed vision or moral courage to stand up to environments of government-manufactured fear. The good news here may come from our evolutionary sciences.
Primatologist Frans De Waal is one of the most respected and influential ethologists writing today whose well-documented optimism is carried in some of his eight book titles. We are Good Natured, and are parts of the billion-year evolution of many forms of life on the Earth; we are now living, he says, in The Age of Empathy: Nature’s Lessons for a Kinder Society; we didn’t get our good and evil tendencies from the gods; we are born including both possibilities, and created our gods, religions and civil law codes to serve and teach our higher possibilities to us, our children and their children.
God may be losing his traditional role as the origin and judge of good and evil. But there is also good news. The fruit from that tree of the knowledge of good and evil is finally ripening. The mythical “Kingdom of Heaven” is, as Jesus said, not supernatural, not “coming.” It is the only place it could ever be: within and among us. That “kingdom” exists when we can treat all others as our brothers and sisters, children of God, and the fruits of life’s longing for itself.
Between strident theism and equally strident atheism, apatheism offers a third way. Maybe there are gods, maybe there aren’t; it doesn’t seem to matter. Both the roots and fruits of a good life are measured by laughter among friends, love among families, and serving compassionate values that can grant us, as the gods used to do a purposeful and satisfying life—here and now, rather than elsewhere and later.
Davidson Loehr has a Ph.D. in methods of studying religion, theology, the philosophy of religion and the philosophy of science, with an additional focus on language philosophy (The University of Chicago, 1988). From 1986 to 2009, he served as a Unitarian minister, and has been a Fellow in the Jesus Seminar since 1992. He has one book, America, Fascism & God: Sermons from a Heretical Preacher (Chelsea Green, 2005). Now retired from the ministry, he is spending this year building a platform to become involved in national discussions of religion, science, values, and culture, and working on a second book: The Rise of Secular Religion in America.
© 2010 Religion Dispatches All rights reserved.
View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/147194/
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 10:56am PT
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Oh my, look at all this input (even some "nonmaterialist" babble) in last 12 hours, what to respond to, if one were to let it, this could be so overwhelming.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:08am PT
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Tony wrote-
"i think the big problem with academic philosophy is that it's afraid of the extensive and boggling fields of science and has too much invested in its literary past... in order to philosophize well about science, you have to get to the cutting edge of it. i think the best philosophers of science are scientists themselves who have the inclination to address this aspect of their work. there aren't very many of them."
-damn straight.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:15am PT
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No free passes. No longer. Not for religions. Not for girls.
Jan I'm sure you're very nice in person, I'm sure I'd enjoy eating an icecream with you at the Yosemite store after a climb but... your posts show no background in science at all and are loaded with bullsh#t. (Here I'm reminded of Laura Ingraham and Ann Coulter. From the other side of the spectrum.)
Reminds me of the Menchen or Twain line cited in Gore's Inconvenient Truth: What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure (Jan, Largo, Fredrick, Go-B) that just ain't true." Also of Avatar: It's hard to fill a cup (Jan, Largo, Fredrick, Go-B) that's already full.
Jan a couple of posts back mentioned linguistics. Ideas and thoughts are NOT nonmaterial any more than NPR radio signal broadcasts are. But good luck trying to explain this to the Yanomamo Indians or the scientifically illiterate. To repeat: you mention linguistics. Read Steven Pinker. He's a leading thinker in evolutionary thought, psychology and linguistics. It's clear you've never taken a computer sciences or engrg course or info science course where you had to solve a problem by signal processing or writing a cpt program or else you'd know how a thought or idea might conceivably have a material basis and not have to be immaterial or nonmaterial.
Steven Pinker is a materialist-mechanist too. Read a couple of his books. e.g., How the Mind Works, The Language Instinct, Stuff of Thought, The Blank Slate. (I've read them, I've also read Dalai.)
One of the best videos I've ever seen is between Steven Pinker and Robert Wright. It's about 8 years old now, I think, and is on the internet. Ties right in to many a subject in this thread.
To know Steven Pinker, by the way, is to know me.
P.S. The ignorance on this thread is truly overwhelming. (Reflecting what we have in American culture and the world I suppose.) Imagine walking up to a campfire (similar to the Taco's) where everyone's talking about climbing, everything's about climbing, related to climbing even though 9 out of 10 around the fire aren't climbers, have never toproped or set a piece a pro or even been to Yosemite or the Sierras. A lot of bullsh#t. That is this thread. It is at once discouraging (showing the gross ignorance) and encouraging (pointing to the great deal of potential for improvement in reasoning and believing).
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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i think the big problem with academic philosophy is...
"Science is what you know. Philosophy is what you don't know."
~Bertrand Russel
"Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds."
~Richard Feynman
Nice to wax poetic about though.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:21am PT
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rAdam- Thanks for the Feynman quote, could've used that a couple of weeks back to stick it to Madbolter1 (PhD, philospher Christian).
Sorry, Largo, I've now been overwhelmed by this thread to respond to your points like I wanted to yesterday. I'll say (a) the sists I alluded to were a sample, (b) in addition, Dennett and Pinker are also materialists, they're center to the studies of "consciousness", cognition, "freewill," etc.
As a material-mechanist, I'm in good company with the vast majority of cognition scientists so you're the glib one in rhetoric to call "materialists" "dead in the water."
This thread attracts me because, first, I'm a climber and, second, it IS my work. So there.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:24am PT
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P.S. The ignorance on this thread is truly overwhelming. (Reflecting what we have in American culture and the world I suppose.) Imagine walking up to a campfire (similar to the Taco's) where everyone's talking about climbing, everything's about climbing, related to climbing even though 9 out of 10 around the fire aren't climbers, have never toproped or set a piece a pro or even been to Yosemite or the Sierras. A lot of bullsh#t. That is this thread. It is at once discouraging (showing the gross ignorance) and encouraging (pointing to the great deal of potential for improvement in reasoning and believing).
A nice paper from a couple PhDs from Cornell:
Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in
Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
Justin KRUGER, David DUNNING
Abstract
People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.64.2655&rep=rep1&type=pdf
That said, there have been some great points, arguments, and cause for thought made by many on both sides of more than one topic in this thread.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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Corn Nut -- "P.S. The ignorance on this thread is truly overwhelming."
You fit right in there.
All your posts are full of total bullsh'it yourself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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Of course I am believing today it was Astrophes (the personification of fate) that burned down God Jesus, that this was a "sign" of the future to come. Both for God Jesus and for the Abrahamic super-religion.
Keep the faith.
EDIT Thanks, Dr. F.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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You fit right in there.
All your posts are full of total bullsh'it yourself.
Werner... Looks like I can use this here as well, as you are still the annoying piss-fly you were over at rc.com, when you posted as 'rasoy':
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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Of course I am believing today it was Astrophes (the personification of fate) that burned down God Jesus, that this was a "sign" of the future to come. Both for God Jesus and for the Abrahamic super-religion.
Keep the faith. I'm pretty sure it was Thor...
He defeated Jesus once before, thus he is clearly more powerful.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 15, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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hey Dr. F, HFCS, rrrAdam, etc...
why not take a hack at a definition of consciousness? You've been good at criticizing the spiritual/mystical side of things without offering up any ideas of your own.
For instance, if consciousness is a construct of language, and language persists after one dies (as in our writings, etc..) then does some form of consciousness, say in memes also persist? Is Newton sort of still here after 400 years? Certainly when I sit with his Opticks and read and perform those experiments, I feel a certain closeness to the man.
Anyway, you've not contributed intellectually to this discussion, you've been in shout down mode... now offer up some interesting thought on the subject.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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I'd be happy, too, Ed, but right now I'm STILL overwhelmed by all the reading of the thread this morning. In the interim, you can rise to a challenge and tell ME where the Dennetts and Pinkers have it wrong.
Have you (1) read Dennetts's Freedom Evolves and (2) if so, where does his model have it wrong?
EDIT
"...without offering up any ideas of your own..."
(1) Perhaps you haven't been reading any of my posts going back to "What are we, robots?!" (2) What are you doing, playing the Devil's Advocate, just a reminder, there's a fine line between that and obstructing science, science education. (3) Not all of us in science, meta-science, post-religion, etc, require 100.000 per cent proof before "believing" in something and moving forward with it and building with it. Many an "abstract" or "theoretical" sist lets pursuit of the perfect (a requirement of absolute proof) get in the way of the good (e.g., modern models in belief that beat the sh#t out of institutionalized bronze age stupidities, e.g, the baby Jesus is God claim), thank goodness, too, or chances are we never would've broken the sound barrier when we did or gone to the moon.
Ed wrote-
"if consciousness is a construct of language" Even without defining the many sides of consciousness, this is ridiculous, who said this?
Ed wrote-
"you've not contributed intellectually to this discussion, you've been in shout down mode... now offer up some interesting thought on the subject"
Ridiculous. Reminder: This thread isn't always about adding an original idea any more than it is always about "convincing" other people. Sometimes, it is just about stating one's own position (a) in belief or (b) the "practice" of living in order to "express one's stance (after decision-making)" in turn in order to see who thinks/believes like you do or who doesn't.
EDIT
Examples of contributions: (1) Hypercrates (2) impromotive prayer (3) Astrophes (4) dangling deities (5) Insistence on calling out "which God" - completely analogous to calling out what physical units go with 17 (17 miles, 17 gallons, 17 ohms) critical to any meaningful discussion- yet goes over at the Fire like a lead balloon (6) synergistic sum (just googled it, Largo, about 70 hits for the actual phrase, pretty original, hardly known in pop culture at all) $$$$ Chances are, these terms or phrases haven't rolled off your lips more than once or twice, yet they're packed with meaning (at least for any with the edu, preparation and training in them).
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 15, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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We believe in the guy in the sky because we are evolutionally hard wired to survive at all costs.
This mandates the strong need to create the concept of afterlife.
And thus the inevitable creation of religions to provide the direction and rituals necessary for humans to satisfy this strong need to believe that their consciousness goes on forever.
If a blind Salamander could evolve likewise higher intelligence, it too would want eternity.
Wanting something very much does not necessarily make that something "real".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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There. Another contribution. Thanks Norton.
Sometimes a contribution (Ed) is not in the form of an original idea or scientific discovery but in the reiteration of an idea. For reinforcement sake. For habit-building sake. (In climbing, how many times does a biginner have to practice the "step-through" before remembering to do it at the right time under the right circumstances.)
EDIT
Oh, and re: language, once upon a time I suggested using the word lifeafter in lieu of afterlife as it's less a religious trap adn less likely to create communications problems across the cross section of individuals and groups- it too went over like a lead balloon at least here at the Fire. (Of course, my take: bad habits are persistent.)
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Per describing "consciousness," I'm still considering a few things. Understand that I'm not ruling out that materialism factors are at play here. To deny basic materialism is like saying El Cap is simply an idea or a belief. But to say that's the whole story is to say "Palm-ala" Anderson is simply a biological machine, and if you had chaos/random field theory dialed and had enough info to input you could predict her every move for the next decade.
This guy's stuff is very interesting o the subject:
Materialism has been extraordinarily successful at explaining nearly every aspect of the world we observe. Every aspect except consciousness, that is. Even though we have first person experience of the existence and nature of consciousness, it is difficult to determine how the material world is responsible for this phenomena. Some have taken this difficulty to indicate that materialism should be rejected, while others think that it simply demonstrates that consciousness as we know it is simply an illusion.
Levels of Description
In the simplest possible terms, the levels of description theory claims that the mental system is only one thing, which we describe in various ways, namely the physical, the computational, and the phenomenal. We can consider each of these descriptions equally valid depiction of reality, in the sense that each description has its basis in objective reality, and describes real causation. Even so our descriptions of the mental system do not exist independently of each other; changes in the mental system captured by one level are reflected in others as well. If we accept this explanation of the mental system, there is no need to abandon consciousness.
A purely physical analogy to this claim might be as follows: the quark description and the neutron-proton-electron description of an atom are equally valid, but they do not exist independently of each other; there is only one atom, but it can be described in several ways. Just as the multiple descriptions of an atom can be considered equally real, and yet not force us to deny materialism, so can the levels of description account of the mind reconcile our experience of consciousness with a materialistic assumptions about reality.
It is possible that the descriptions presented here reflect different aspects of the underlying reality, but it is not required for the argument to be coherent. Even if reality was ultimately an undifferentiated Parmenidian oneness, it still makes sense to talk about different the descriptions with which we apply to the mental system. Even if they themselves are purely artificial mental constructs, they are useful mental constructs, and they do reflect both our first person and objective experience of the mental system.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
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High Fructose-
I never claimed to be a scientist nor a computer specialist nor an engineer. I do however know something about the social sciences and human nature.
Here are a few insights from those disciplines that you should be aware of.
1. Creating a hostile environment and attacking people for their belief systems has a long history of only reinforcing those belief systems.
2. Setting oneself up as an arbiter of intelligence and erudition also does not win anyone any friends or followers. It simply comes across as egotistical.
3. Setting one’s academic interests up as superior to all other academic subjects just antagonizes people outside those fields and again strikes people as egotistical.
4. Insults based on gender ( I did not ask for any free passes by the way) only makes you look biased and chauvinistic and is guaranteed to be off putting to half your potential audience.
5. Assuming that it is your job to educate the masses at all, and that the purpose of a thread on ST is to have a forum for you to indoctrinate people with the correct view rather than have an exchange of ideas is likewise an assumption guaranteed to antagonize people.
6. When people are annoyed and antagonized you have lost your effectiveness as a a teacher and you do not have the power to coerce us into agreement so you have lost your effectiveness period.
Through your insults to your audience you have rendered yourself totally inefficient at what you had hoped to accomplish. Now just how smart and superior is that?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Jan- Quit whining like a "girl" then.
It's a new age. Get used to it. The post-religious (for lack of a better term) have gotten themselves out of the closet at long last. The internet and the forum and blogs facilitate this.
Many of us in the "post-religous" camp are determined to give as good as we get. (As one strategy in the quiver to get ahead.) I refer you to past posts of Madbolter, Largo, Werner, etc. who post in quite colorful language. If this is too much for you, if you're like Flouride or Klimmer and have to resort to the use of words like "threatening" and "attacking" and "bullying" to counter opponent's manners of posting, perhaps a more gentle forum off the internet is better suited to you and your personality.
If our civilization and 6-B carrying capacity goes down the drain(lke many scientists, futurists, etc. are predicting), our kids' kids will ONCE AGAIN know the truer meaning-definition of "attacking" and "threatening". In the context of nature red in tooth and claw.
Give it a break.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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Fructose-
Quit macho posturing like a man then.
I never insulted you personally and if it's other people you're mad at, take it out on them.
Women are tired of being told they're stupid and being called girls.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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re: macho-posturing
And insofar as I am "macho-posturing" on this thread, it is not as a man but it IS as a "tbd-mechanist" who respects his mechanistic nature (everything from action potentials to ATP metabolism to endocrinology to genetic switching, etc.) and doesn't like to see it dissed by a majority at the fire with their woo-woo "misconceptions" if not ignorance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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The entire Earth would be smaller than a baseball if squished in a black hole. According to science, everything is comprised of the same vibrating energy that might seems like particles with vast spaces in between them.
If you ask me the alleged "Materials" seem more like consciousness than consciousness seems like a material.
We react because traditional religions contain a lot of ancient morality and mythical views that seems childish by modern standards. That says nothing about the state of reality just like the state of science 2000 years ago says anything about the status of scientific laws.
Both science and religion like to think they know more than they do. Contemplate the issue of "Time" for a bit. How could there be a definitive beginning? We don't know squat
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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And insofar as I am "macho-posturing" on this thread, it is not as a man but it IS as a "tbd-mechanist" who respects his mechanistic nature (everything from action potentials to ATP metabolism to endocrinology to genetic switching, etc.)
I see. So the Devil of ATP metabolism made you do it???
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 15, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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Everyone acknowledges the great mystery that we find ourselves in. It is true we don't know much.
The issue is simply does that mystery validate the belief in deity; I don't see the connection. I see a sublime and compelling mystery but to extrapolate from that the kind of theological specificity that makes up a religion seems problematic.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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hey Dr. F, HFCS, rrrAdam, etc...
why not take a hack at a definition of consciousness? You've been good at criticizing the spiritual/mystical side of things without offering up any ideas of your own.
For instance, if consciousness is a construct of language, and language persists after one dies (as in our writings, etc..) then does some form of consciousness, say in memes also persist? Is Newton sort of still here after 400 years? Certainly when I sit with his Opticks and read and perform those experiments, I feel a certain closeness to the man.
Anyway, you've not contributed intellectually to this discussion, you've been in shout down mode... now offer up some interesting thought on the subject. Sigh... I feel that I have contributed intelectually to this discusion, with history, science, logic, and 'falsification' which is an important part of science, as I'm sure you are aware more so than I. My issue isn't people's belief in God... It's people whose belief in God causes them to ignore and deny reality regarding evolution or an old Earth, then succesfully screw up the cariculum in their areas. Or, enact absurd laws based on a mythical God that all must live by.
Regarding conciousness...
As I wrote earlier in this thread, pages back...Ed, John...
I like what you two have to say about our (limited) understanding of the mind and conciousness.
Reminds me of a good book writen by Tenzin Gyatso (14th and current Dalai Lama):
The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality
He spent some time with physicists and scientists, learning about current theories, and the result was this book.
In it, he has a chapter on conciousness, and he notes that it is hard to objectively quanitfy and even talk about it, since everybody experiences their own personally, thus subjectively... And when trying to talk about what they experience, people are limited by vocabulary, in that many cultures have different ideas and definitions for "heart" (not the blood pump type ;-P), "mind", "spirit", "soul", etc...
Tis a good read, from a well read and enlightened man.
[qualifier]'Conciousness' isn't really my area of interest... My interests are: Theology, Theoretical and Experimental Physics, Cosmology, and Reason.[/qualifier]
First, I would define conciousness as (without looking it up) the ability to be aware of one's surroundings AND one's self. There are different levels as we move up the evolutionary ladder, all the way up to abstract thought.
Just like describing the universe prior to 10^-11 is very speculative, where after 10^-6 we are pretty damn sure due to experiments that you yourself are involved in (I.e., high energy particle physics). But we just don't know what happened at T=0 to 'cause' the singularity to 'Bang' (so to speak). Lots of speculation - Hell, Lee Smolin posits fecund universes (see: The Life of the Cosmos) with each black hole 'banging into another universe within it's even horizion'... Intriguing, but still speculation. People used to answer these questions with God.
So, like the above, we really don't know what caused conciousness, so we are testing, evaluating, and speculating... Hell, we first must determine what it is, right? But we are hampered by the fact that experiencing conciousness is subjective to the person experiencing it, and the best they can do is relay what they experience in their own limited words, that are subject to their life experiences. Many view their conciousness as part of the soul, some cultures believe the spirit resides in the heart... Abviously, that isn't so, as those who've had heart transplants don't lose their soul in exchange for the donor's soul. See, falsification is easy and relevant, as it shows that belief is 'wrong'. People answer these questions too, with God.
Using God to provide the only possible answer to the unknown is the God of the Gaps, as when we learn more, his place gets smaller.
What is unknown now, is NOT necessarily unknowable.
My own speculation based on what I understand...
I would say that since adults with a more fully formed brain (I.e., more neural connections) have a higher level of conciousness/awareness than that of a toddler or infant, and, since that level of conciousness/awareness seems to wane as one ages in their latter years along with their brain through lack of stimulation (atrophy) or degrading neural connections, this strongly suggests that conciousness is directly proportional to the brain and it's structure. I see no evidence for anything outside of the structure of the brain being required. Note - Not fully understanding is NOT a requirement, IMHO.
Just as drugs can alter conciousness, so can the body's hormones and chemicals ('drugs are chemicals, umkaaaay')... So, not only do they influence our thoughts but we also "feel" (E.g., in the pit of our stomach, the heart, the throught, etc) the effects of those chemicals / hormones, thus "emotions". Drugs are prescribed for 'emotional' reasons, so again, all in the brain. No need for an outside explanation for emotions either.
I also believe that people can train themselves to alter the electrical and/or chemical stimulation or their brain, and some even the brains of others if the people are receptive to being influenced. Once again, all in the brain, no need for an outside explanation here either.
Note - I think we are at least 50 years away from fuklly understanding the many inticacies of the brain, and I do believe conciousness is simulatable, and believe that we will create aretificial conciousness in a computer before we fully (if that's possible) understand the brain.
As for the "cause" or what lead to conciousness: Evolution. Same thing that lead to us having opposable thumbs, binocular vision, or whatever... There was/is an advantage to being aware. And what social animals do NOT show some form of conciousness and awareness of others in their society? It has an advantage, and advantages is what natural selection tends to promote and even improve on.
PS... I know, my spelling sux. :(
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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Corn Nut -- "Jan- Quit whining like a "girl" then."
That's an insult towards, Jan, you retard.
I should also add "Idiot" to your fine qualities .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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Paul-
I agree and I think that is exactly the dilemma for most post modern people. Wouldn't it be ironic if the very specificity of the agricultural society originated religions causes us to go back to a simpler, more nature based philosophy?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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Karl/ Dr F...
The Schwarzschild radius for the Earth is about 3/8".
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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Since you're only in 10th grade.
That's all you'll ever understand ......
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
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I choose to believe that souls evolve just as cultures evolve - infant, juvenile, adolescent, adult and old - the younger cultures also tend to have more infantile, juvenile and adolescent souls. Such is the case of our adolescent culture.
The Chinese, Tibetan, Indian, etc cultures tend to have more adult and old souls.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Here are a few insights from those disciplines that you should be aware of.
1. Creating a hostile environment and attacking people for their belief systems has a long history of only reinforcing those belief systems.
2. Setting oneself up as an arbiter of intelligence and erudition also does not win anyone any friends or followers. It simply comes across as egotistical.
3. Setting one’s academic interests up as superior to all other academic subjects just antagonizes people outside those fields and again strikes people as egotistical.
4. Insults based on gender ( I did not ask for any free passes by the way) only makes you look biased and chauvinistic and is guaranteed to be off putting to half your potential audience.
5. Assuming that it is your job to educate the masses at all, and that the purpose of a thread on ST is to have a forum for you to indoctrinate people with the correct view rather than have an exchange of ideas is likewise an assumption guaranteed to antagonize people.
6. When people are annoyed and antagonized you have lost your effectiveness as a a teacher and you do not have the power to coerce us into agreement so you have lost your effectiveness period.
Through your insults to your audience you have rendered yourself totally inefficient at what you had hoped to accomplish. Now just how smart and superior is that? That all applies to me, and you are right... It impedes me making my case/point. I'm not always like that, as when people address the points, I am more than cordial and patient. When they ignore them, and keep repeating the same nonsense, I get frustrated. (E.g. ID, MB)
Also... Many confuse direct, honest, and frank with abusive and insensitive.
After several friends suggested I read "How To Win Friends And Influence People", by Carnegy, I bought and read it, even highlighting things that were very pertinant to me. Perhaps I should reread it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 15, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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The Schwarzschild radius for the Earth is about 3/8".
My Point is basically that the world isn't as we see it, and it's spacious composition and energy make-up are more akin to what we would imagine as the electrical/neural system of the brain than the heavy dense matter that it appears to be (because we are relatively made of the same stuff)
There's really NO proof or proving that the whole universe isn't just like the dream of the ultimate Being. If I could give you a drug that put you to dreaming sleep for 40 years and you lost yourself in the dream, you'd eventually assume the dream world to be real, learn the dream rules and post on the dream taco.
Think about it. EVERY bit of information and experience you are aware of consciously is processed subjectively. There are plenty of deep rabbit holes we haven't even dreamed of yet.
The Big Bang has always been a limited joke. What about 600 trillion years before the big bang? We don't know squat. We've only had "civilization" for a tiny fraction of time. We have a lot to learn.
Learn about God? Learn about yourself and your own mind by learning to quiet your thoughts. It's easy to be smart, that's a gift. Control the mind, that's something. Do that and see what you learn within yourself. You are the laboratory. No Faith required.
Side effect...Happiness. Easy to see that happiness comes from within, more affected by our state of mind than outside events. So why not take control? Then see what you see.
There is no external lab for God.
peace
Karl
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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Karl, that would mean that I am the only one dreaming, and you all are just figmants of my imagination existing only in my dream.
Remember the movie Jacob's Ladder?
Unless you are suggesting that we are all dreaming together, running the same sequence provided to us by an outside entity, a la The Matrix... Possible, but equally possible is that I am God. Neither can be tested, now can it?
And, in this universe there is no such thing as "before" the BB, as current theory shows that time and space (spacetime) came into existance then. Universe isn't only space and energy/matter, it is also time. Just as there is no outside the universe, there also is no before the universe.
Now many dismiss this by saying, "well how do we know?". Well, how do we know that 1 plus 1 equalled 2, billions of years ago? We don't... But we work off the principle that it did unless there is a reason to believe it didn't.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 15, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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I've read some in this area, I have read Dennett's Consciousness Explained which I thought had many very interesting points.
However, the hard work is in the details. Being a scientific critic is one thing, doing science is quite another... like literary criticism, the author is putting it out there, the critic is opining on whether or not the author succeeded...
...what my request was was for less criticism and more authoring... I liked the idea of the robot thread, but HFCS seems to have only one very loud volume when communicating... "HERE'S THE CHIP ON MY SHOULDER, KNOCK IF OFF BUDDY BOY IF YOU DARE (AND YOU TOO YOU GIRLS!)"
not very conducive to a discussion of a very interesting phenomena.. which we seemed to have bent the thread to, and I suspect for good reason.
Language's involvement with consciousness may not be as stupid an idea as it was so judged above. But is something that I said, I would have to reconstruct my thinking on this, and perhaps give a few references... but not now...
I also think that there is a very interesting relationship between what one is conscious of, and what makes that consciousness possible, which are two different things... but perhaps in a subtle way (though not to me)... another avenue to discuss.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
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...what my request was was for less criticism and more authoring... Many of my posts have been very detailed, information dense, and not terse, but took time and thought to compose.
Perhaps I am personalizing your request, but you included me as someone who hasn't posted much, and is "in shout down mode".
Note - I have the utmost respect for you Ed, especially considering your education, line of work, and my interests.
That said... There are some in this thread who have exceptionaly unreasonable beliefs, but just cannot be reasoned with. And, as Thomas Jefferson said:
"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them. "
The village idiot should be marginalized and ignored, not appeased. I don't suffer fools well, my bad.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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Ed H -- "I also think that there is a very interesting relationship between what one is conscious of, and what makes that consciousness possible, ..."
Yes this is intelligent thought ....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 15, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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"...their woo-woo "misconceptions" if not ignorance."
This is silly, plain and simple, and underscores the subtle chuckling that goes on with those studying the over all picture, and who often come up against those insisting that "measurement" (science) is the only valid mode of inquiry if you really want to "know" something. The same psychological impulse that leads fundamentalist Christians to stand fast on their principals is what leads to such catagorical thinking. For we can be sure that the same cognitive distortions driving fundamentalist thinking are the same no matter if we're talking about science or The Book of Exodus. Absolutes are the destroyers of knowledge for they stop open inquiry.
The problem with a merely measured or described charicterization of something is that it can be valued over actual direct experience, whereby a description of the Shield on El Cap, say,can be valued over actually climbing the thing find out for yourself. The standard argument is that there are many - perhaps the vast majority of things - that cannot be experienced, such as the Big Bang, or quantum level happenings.
But if this is the way the world works, if the dance of nothing and something is actually going on somewhere, and the Big Bang happened once upon a time, then it must also being present in our minds - this is the basic tenet of meditation. The fundamental processes that you observe, the rising and falling of content, thoughts, feelings and so forth, MUST be in keeping with the way the universe actually functions, since in one sense it is all "mind" or emptiness or activity in the quantum field.
I have CalTec quantum mechanic and chemist friends I DH ride with who are also long time meditators and to the man and women they swear that all of the basics, from the BCS theory of superconductivity, to phase transition, quantum phase transition, critical phenomena, dark matter, gravity, strong force, weak force, glutons and all the rest have almost exact and observable correlates in consciousness and Mind. How could it possibly be different?
I think a comprehensive definition of consciousness would start with the the question of trying to list what is not merely mechanical or "caused" or "produced" by "bottom-up" causality, that which you cannot reverse engineer to atomic generative forces.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 15, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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And, in this universe there is no such thing as "before" the BB, as current theory shows that time and space (spacetime) came into existance then. Universe isn't only space and energy/matter, it is also time. Just as there is no outside the universe, there also is no before the universe
If the universe arose once, it could have arisen before. Then there is still this question of what it arose out of, whether there existed time in that existence or not. Everything can not arise from merely nothing, and as soon as there is any change in the foundation of existence, that means time.
as for the questions about "Are we God? Am I dreaming the universe alone or somehow in concert with God or everybody else" That's a mystery beyond rational thought or the scope of the mind. Some folks say an experience of Grace or "Samadhi" can clarify this mystery but we're not taking anybody's word for anything are we?
This life isn't an easy game to play with your eyes open. That's why most of us sleep through it without honestly questioning ourselves or the meaning of life.
Peace
Karl
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 15, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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There are people who think they are God cvurrently posting on the "should we kill him" thread.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 15, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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How likely is it that us homos would evolve in some 4.5 billion years if the tape of the history of the earth was replayed over and over?
Are we inevitable in life progression of this planet, or purely random accidents of evolution that is just extremely lucky to have evolved from single cell life?
No screwing around Fructose, I want answers right now.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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If the universe arose once, it could have arisen before. True, but this is beyond the scope of whay we can know since we are confined to THIS universe, so it is metaphysics. Thus, any discussion about it is merely speculation. Using "magic" (supernatural) to account for it is counter productive, as whether or not we understand it, there is a natural explanation. Think of oll the things that were once though impossible to know, accounted for with "magic" only to find that there was no magic involved... There was a perfectly natural explanation.
Everything can not arise from merely nothing... It didn't... It arose from a singularity. Now you will ask, well, what made the singularity?* We don't know, and any idea would be speculation, just as what created God? It arose from "nothing", but people speculate that he is eternal, and that's still a guess/speculation, yet people confidently believe it as fact. That's the difference... In science, people are OK with not knowing, and don't form certain beliefs out of speculation.
*Food for thought... From what we know, there is no difference between the singularity that our universe 'Banged' into existence from, and one in the center of a blackhole. Thus, Lee Smolin's theory of fecund universes that I mentioned earlier.
That's a mystery beyond rational thought... That applies to the above.
This life isn't an easy game to play with your eyes open. That's why most of us sleep through it without honestly questioning ourselves or the meaning of life.
One should strive to learn every day... I have two interlaced rubber bracelets that say "Challenge yourself" on one, and "Every 15 minutes" on the other.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 15, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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How likely is it that us homos would evolve in some 4.5 billion years if the tape of the history of the earth was replayed over and over?
The likely hood is SO SMALL that it IS effectively nill.
Many even have a hard time grasping such large numbers as a billion. Seriously... For example, one needs to be ~31 1/2 years old just to be 1 billion seconds old.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 15, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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I know people like to rag on this thread, and sure there's a bit of hostility here and there, but I have to say there's some really interesting and thought provoking stuff here as well.
What could be more fundamentally interesting than the question of what consciousness is and is there a God behind it? Some great posts, intriguing, thoughtful and maybe even mind changing.
Thanks.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 15, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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Dr. F. said:
"Thoughts are like a video or computer program, and have nothing at all connected to the larger universe."
What are you smoking there, Doctor?
This comment is not consistent with your material reductionist belief system. Material reductionism insists that all things have mechanical explanations. That is, all higher order (emergent or meta) phenomenon can be reverse-engineered down to atomic level activity that can be experimentally shown and proven to be the efficient "cause" in mechanically creating the "thing" in question.
All that we see and feel and think is in fact the determined and inevitable outcome of a biological machine. Ergo, those thoughts you write off have to be the direct result of atomic activity that produced them, as well as the materially formulated observer who observed them, and the bio machine who experienced them. They are not disconnect from "the larger universe" for one basic reason - the Holy Grail of Material Reductionism: Thoughts are "things," and things are matter, and the "real" universe is composed of matter/energy that we can measure scientifically.
Basically, if you're going to insist that the map is the territory, which material reductionism does, there can not possibly be anything - from a thought to a piton - that can not be connected to the larger universe.
To believe that thoughts are disconnected to the larger universe is to give them a special mystical status, somehow lying outside material space/time, sort of like the Christian God. Since thoughts are undeniably "real," they have to be material (according to the Golden Fleece), and material is the universe. At least the way you've been arguing so far.
JL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 15, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
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All Life on Earth Shares a Common Ancestor
One isn't such a lonely number. All life on Earth shares a single common ancestor, a new statistical analysis confirms.
The idea that life-forms share a common ancestor is "a central pillar of evolutionary theory," says Douglas Theobald, a biochemist at Brandeis University in Waltham, Mass. "But recently there has been some mumbling, especially from microbiologists, that it may not be so cut-and-dried."
Because microorganisms of different species often swap genes, some scientists have proposed that multiple primordial life forms could have tossed their genetic material into life's mix, creating a web, rather than a tree of life.
To determine which hypothesis is more likely correct, Theobald put various evolutionary ancestry models through rigorous statistical tests. The results, published in the May 13 Nature, come down overwhelmingly on the side of a single ancestor.
WATCH VIDEO: Clues from the pelvis of the human ancestor, Ardi, indicate she walked upright on two legs, not on all four like chimpanzees.
Related Links:
New Ancestor May Be Ape-Human Link
Cockroach Ancestor Predates Dinosaurs
T. Rex Ancestor Was Little Tough Guy
HowStuffWorks.com: Are we all descended from a common female ancestor?
A universal common ancestor is at least 102,860 times more probable than having multiple ancestors, Theobald calculates.
No one has previously put this aspect of evolution through such a stringent test, says David Penny, a theoretical biologist and Allan Wilson Centre researcher at Massey University in Palmerston North, New Zealand. "In one sense, we are not surprised at the answer, but we are very pleased that the unity of life passed a formal test," he says. He and Mike Steel of the University of Canterbury in Christchurch, New Zealand, wrote a commentary on the study that appears in the same issue of Nature.
For his analysis, Theobald selected 23 proteins that are found across the taxonomic spectrum but have structures that differ from one species to another. He looked at those proteins in 12 species -- four each from the bacterial, archaeal and eukaryotic domains of life.
Then he performed computer simulations to evaluate how likely various evolutionary scenarios were to produce the observed array of proteins.
Theobald found that scenarios featuring a universal common ancestor won hands down against even the best-performing multi-ancestor models. "The universal common ancestor (models) didn't just explain the data better, they were also the simplest, so they won on both counts," Theobald says.
A model that had a single common ancestor and allowed for some gene swapping among species was even better than a simple tree of life. Such a scenario is 103,489 times more probable than the best multi-ancestor model, Theobald found. That's a 1 with 3,489 zeros after it.
Theobald's study does not address how many times life may have arisen on Earth. Life could have originated many times, but the study suggests that only one of those primordial events yielded the array of organisms living today. "It doesn't tell you where the deep ancestor was," Penny says. "But what it does say is that there was one common ancestor among all those little beasties."
http://news.discovery.com/animals/life-single-common-ancestor.html
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
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I bet Ed's more a Penrose-Tipler guy than a Steven Weinberg guy. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) So because I'm more a Steven Weinberg guy this is probably why we don't get each other esp in regard to each other's language, manner of speaking or posting, and approach.
Whats more, seems to me, Ed's emphasis at least in his posts is science's predictive and theoretical values, whereas my emphasis is the practical knowledge systems revealed by science, what we can build with these, what we can model, in and out of engineering for example and including what new foundations we can build with science's help as as basis for new practices in the practice of living.
As for "strident" and "shrill" and "arrogant" and "loud" Harris (End of Faith) and Dennett (Breaking the Spell) and Dawkins (The God Delusion) were called these things. So if I am called these things I am in good company. They are my heroes. My intellectual heroes. My spiritual heroes.
Times are changing, though. Where the brain mechanists are the majority (someday in ever widening circles) and the supernaturalists are the minority, we'll see who the annoying, insulting and loud are then.
One school of thought is that the angst on this thread is just part and parcel in the nature of mixing it up in debate and discourse. I'm alright with that. A long time ago, through my own searching and struggles, I had to come to grips with the frustrating and despiriting inefficiencies and fits and starts of evolution (biotic, cultural, cosmic, whatever). So because I did, I can easily see these contentions in debate and discourse on this thread in those terms.
The facts are, American culture is (1) chock-full of people (e.g., mentally immature people, ol time supernaturalists, some without a single science course to their name) who cannot stand the ideas of life being either mechanistic or mortal (a one-shot deal) and that attitude has an effect ("Attitude is everything." Right?); and (2) chockful of nerdy girly scientists (cf: girly democrats, thanks Arnold) who don't like controversy, thus stand in the corner and don't get involved and that attitude or inclination has an effect. But thank goodness times are changing.
Times ARE changing. I've seen huge changes since the 80's. Remember, E.O. Wilson (in 79 I think) got a pitcher of ice water dumped on his head for presenting the science people didn't want to hear. But you guys can't do that to me. Why? Because I'm just an avatar and because I'm behind a monitor, so all you can do to me is call me shrill or loud or vile. Or a leg humper or even a hater. If this works for you, go for it, I'm callused, I can handle it.
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pa
climber
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Jun 15, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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What could be more fundamentally interesting than the question of what consciousness is...
Yes Mr. Roehl, hundreds of posts back I voiced the hope that people would continue sharing their thoughts on this.
Like you, I have appreciated it very much, even the vitriolic and largely spurious drivel of those few who want to force an impersonal inquiry into personal attacks. They provide comic relief, of sorts.
For the most part though, it has been very thought-provoking and I am grateful for the effort put into it.
It is interesting how each of us has a particular way of looking for answers...reminds me of mushroom-hunting with my family.
Mother would impatiently stalk through, whacking greenery out of the way. Uncle would methodically quarter the area into sections and examine each with laser precision.
Brother would bend over, pretending to find something but actually trying to sneak in a cigarette.
Cousin would merrily skip from bush to tree, clueless, singing inane love songs, then stumble on the largest mushroom.
Grandma would hobble off out of sight, let everybody get ahead, then find the big stash and be home cooking it before anyone else realized she had disappeared.
Auntie usually dropped to her knees and prayed...with varying success.
I generally got lost staring at raindrops and never found anything. And so on.
Hope the search continues...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 15, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
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What are you smoking
They are not disconnect from "the larger universe" for one basic reason - the Holy Grail of Material Reductionism: Thoughts are "things," and things are matter, and the "real" universe is composed of matter/energy that we can measure scientifically.
Thoughts are NOT things
and the only connection is at the atomic level, meaning I'm made of atoms, just like the rest of world, who cares at that level, thats no connection you can speak of
that doesn't make me, or you connected to anything, especially not the entire universe
You show me the connection
You are reading too much into this quantum possiblities, they do not prove any connection, or that we are what we think
-
You've simply lost track of your own line of reasoning, and the inevitable conclusions of the Materialist Reductionist belief system. Because materialism operates on absolutes, it can only happen one and only one way: all things and all phenomenon issue from matter, and are inexplicably connected to matter/energy - which comprises the entire universe - by way of direct causation.
You say that thoughts are NOT things. Why is this false according to materialism? The answer is quite simple.
The matter (atomic/chemical/energetic action) caused and produced the thought. That's the basic premise of materialism. So the "connection" is first and foremost the causal link between the atoms and the thought. That is, if you insist that matter (evolved brain) produces thoughts, then a causal link between thoughts and matter has to exist, otherwise matter couldn't have "caused" thought. It cannot be any other way. So far, so good.
What's more, since materialism believes that consciousness and observation are materially created epiphenomenon, the very experience of your thoughts by your biological machine is, second to second, inexplicably connected to the atomic level activity by way of the on-going casual link creating them in real time. You don't have thoughts and observation functioning independentally from the brain that you insist creates thoughts and observing in the first place. Break the connection - or the casual link to the matter/atomic activity - and the thought and the person himself no longer exists because the atomic activity producing thought and observer and human being is no longer on line.
To believe otherwise would be to say that a thought can exist separate from it's causal link to the matter that produces it, meaning thoughts - and the observer himself - once produced, are no longer beholden to matter to create and sustain them. Materialism believes exactly the opposite thing. If you insist that the map is the territory, as materialism does, then you're stuck with the conclusions.
I trust this makes it clear.
JL
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jun 15, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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I don't know....
But at least one of them wack-jobs has a definite goal in mind...
This from today. I heard the NPR news as it faded in and out while driving into Yosemite this morning. Couldn't believe my ears...
American On Mission To Kill Bin Laden Arrested
June 15, 2010
An American armed with a pistol and a 40-inch sword was detained in northern Pakistan and told investigators he was on a solo mission to kill Osama bin Laden, a police officer said Tuesday.
The man was identified as 52-year-old Californian construction worker Gary Brooks Faulkner, said officer Mumtaz Ahmad Khan.
He was picked up in a forest in the Chitral region late on Sunday, he said.
"We initially laughed when he told us that he wanted to kill Osama bin Laden," said Khan. But he said when officers seized the pistol, the sword and night-vision equipment, "our suspicion grew."
He was questioned Tuesday by intelligence officials in Peshawar, the main northwestern city.
Faulkner told police he visited Pakistan seven times, and this was his third trip to Chitral.
Police alleged the American intended to travel to the eastern Afghan region of Nuristan, just across the border from Chitral.
The area is among several rumored hiding places for the al-Qaida leader, who has evaded a massive U.S. effort to capture him since 2001. Bin Laden is accused of being behind the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States, as well other terrorist acts.
Khan said Faulkner was also carrying a book containing Christian verses and teachings.
When asked why he thought he had a chance of tracing bin Laden, Faulkner replied, "God is with me, and I am confident I will be successful in killing him," said Khan.
Faulkner arrived in the Chitrali town of Bumburate on June 3 and stayed in a hotel there.
He was assigned a police guard, as is quite common for foreigners visiting remote parts of Pakistan. When he checked out without informing police, officers began hunting for him, said Khan.
U.S. Embassy spokesman Richard Snelsire said the mission had received notification from Pakistani officials that an American citizen had been arrested. He said embassy officials were trying to meet the man and confirm his identity.
This mornings news cast reported that the Pakistan authorities had mentioned that they thought the man was unstable.... as is the case when imaginary friends are entered into any picture.
Tell ya what.. find me a story about a loony atheist hell bent on killing in the name of...
No such illusory thoughts occur in free mind
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
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The simple facts are (1) some of us understand mind (including sentience or consciousness, also intention) as what the brain organ (or brain machine) does and (2) we want to go forward with this model. With this model. In a new practice of living.
This new, or modern, scienced based practice of living (right now lacking a name in pop culture) will emphasis (a) this-world living, (b) coping strategies for life's predicaments or pickles and letdowns, (c) a new narrative (or narratives) based on the Scientific Story that explains (i) how the world works, (ii) how life works, (iii) how humans ought to live, (d) lifeguidance strategies (based on "what matters" and "what works" in addition to "what is").
Times are changing. Right now, lifecoaching systems that aren't God-based (let alone Jehovah-based), also even the Dr. Phil Show (with its emphasis on life strategies) are crude models of this and point the way (for those willing to look beyond bronze age supernaturalisms) to what IS under development.
Needless to say, I cannot wait. Hope I live long enough to see the seeds of its institution germinate. Out with the old leadership (in belief, in faith/ trust, in lifeguidance) and in with the new. That's my mantra. My fighting mantra. My growth and development mantra.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jun 15, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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HFCS - That is a good sound idea...
...and certainly has not been tried yet.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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Jingy- Hope it wasn't too "shrill" or "loud" a post. Or too "insensitive" to the sensitivities of the supernaturalists out there. Don't want to "insult" anybody. Good luck, people, in your quest.
Pa- I believe we're of different "faiths" (based on our post histories) but I liked your post, appreciated the parable.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 15, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Again WHY do you believe this?"
Because I have met God The Living Word! He is alive, and erases any doubt of who He is, including in Scripture. For He is The Living Word.
I gave a simple example of one of the many ways He has communicated to me. And there was no way I could have realized, in 1962 at the age of 12, that it was wrong and self defeating/damaging to carry any sort of unforgiving/anger in my heart(no matter how humanly justifiable). But He instructed me otherwise. It is a personal story/revelation. And I know that with your material mind, you will choose to rationalize it.
All I can say is that its not yet to late for you to know Him, to have a personal relationship with Him. He is only a breath away.
But you will continue to "Ignore, ignore, deny, deny..." but remember..."He who denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in Heaven." Matthew 10:33
This is all foolishness to you...no surprise. Sad to say that you are the fool. "For the fool says there is no God."
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 15, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
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Interesting how it's always got to be followed up by a veiled threat of some kind. What a petulant, self-aggrandizing little deity you've chosen to invest in, 777! I mean, if he didn't simultaneously keep spouting off about loving us all so much.
That was the nice thing about pagan deities. They made no pretense about not sharing and, really, symbolizing, all of our human traits, good and bad. But this Yahweh and his spokespeople, well, basically, all seem pretty hypocritical.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 15, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Trip7, it is also "not too late" for you to put away childish delusions and grow up.
I do not recall any non god believers imploring you to convert to their beliefs because time could be running out for them to do so.
End of the world scares used as persuasion techniques are SO 13th century when used outside of church services.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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The soul is not material.
The body is composed of five gross elements:
Earth, water, fire, air, and ether and three subtle elements mind, intelligence, and false ego.
The soul resides within the body, within the heart, and is permanent.
Generally when we say "I" the hand points to our heart.
Dr F when you make the gesture "I" with your hand you must be pointing to your head?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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Did ya all catch it, Obama's remarks tonite?
Obama said in this national address:
"One approach I will not accept is inaction. One answer I will not settle for is the idea that this challenge is too big, too difficult to meet. The same thing was said about our ability to produce enough planes and tanks in WWII. The same thing was said about our ability to harness the science and the technology to land a man safely on the surface of the moon. And yet time and again we have refused to settle for the paltry limits of conventional wisdom."
Couldn't help to notice how this remark tied in "right nicely" to the contents of much of these past few pages.
QT So what in today's world epitomizes "the paltry limits of conventional wisdom" when it comes to better practices in the "practice" of living? ANS The answer for growing numbers is the Abrahamic super-religion in particular (under the God-King Jehovah) and any and all supernaturalist faiths (Eastern, Western) in general.
Inaction SUCKS. Inaction SUCKS in regard to advancing belief systems (for lack of a better word), too, as certainly as inaction sucks in regard to countless other endeavors or enterprises.
Moving beyond supernaturalist huey (supernaturalist bronze-age stupidities) is not too big, not too difficult. In fact, it is underway. It is on the way. So take that Paul Church.
EDIT
(Ed, I introduced the Church Brothers as a new "intellectual" contribution a couple of weeks ago, do you remember, perhaps, however, you missed it. It's a means, a TOOL, a mental tool, yes, even an invented tool (aka an innovation) not in regard to consciousness but in regard to gods, religions and their stories- to distinguish between a few species of Christian (another: John Heavenworth) in order to get traction through a religious quagmire of sorts. But as I said perhaps you missed it.)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Norton- "End of world scares..."
FWIW, who said anything in regards to a "end of world" scenario?
Mankind would destroy itself if He doesn't choose to return and intervene at Meggido/Armeggedon.
100 years ago the "naysayers" were saying that it would be impossible for man to destroy the world as a result of a WW. Today we know that is very possible...but I have no fear of that ever happening.
BTW, I was simply pointing out to rrrADAM that his incessant chant of "ignore, ignore, deny, deny..." will come back to haunt him...for eternity! And felt obligated to offer him Hope!
Didn't expect anyone else to take issue...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Then again, there's the whole placebo factor.
What is consciousness?
Something to be manipulated.
According to researchers at the University of Cologne, believing in luck-related superstitions boosts confidence and leads to better and faster performance in what you're doing.
The research consisted of four small experiments, according to Bad Science author and doctor Ben Goldacre:
In the first, they took 28 students, over 80% of whom said they believed in good luck, and randomly assigned them to either a superstition-activated or a control condition. Then they put put them on a putting green. To activate a superstition, for half of them, when handing over the ball the experimenter said: "here is your ball. So far it has turned out to be a lucky ball". For the other half, the experimenter just said "this is the ball everyone has used so far". Each participant had 10 goes at putting on the green, trying to get a hole-in-one from a distance of 100 cm: and lo, the students playing with a "lucky ball" did significantly better than the others, with a mean score of 6.42, against 4.75 for the others.
Likewise, each of the remaining three experiments revealed some sort of performance boost from "luck". How well this translates to life probably varies, but as Goldacre put it:
What's interesting is that superstition works, because it improves confidence, let's you set higher goals, and encourages you to work harder. In a lab. You now know everything you need to decide if this applies to your life. http://lifehacker.com/5564070/stop-being-so-darn-rational-superstition-boosts-performance
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
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Trip, saying it is "not too late" strongly implies a bad ending or result if
one does not "know" god as you do.
Saying that implies you believe in consequences, bad ones, for rrrAdam if he
does not know god.
Perhaps if he does not buy into the guy in the sky the same way you do before he dies, or the end of the world, whatever, things could be bad for rrrAdam.
Trip, why don't you tell us all just exactly what happens to people, what fate
they suffer if they don't know god the way you do.
Maybe some sort of nasty physical punishment? Maybe burn for a while?
Maybe something mental, how about being doomed to never hearing the angels?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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Ultimately, we cannot say there is or isn’t a God.
Ultimately we can’t even define what deity might or might not be… Neither science nor theology can come up with absolute verdicts when it comes to our contemplation of deity. It’s just a damned mystery.
So we are left here to wonder. Those who don’t wonder, those that are absolutely certain, haven’t been paying close attention.
The world is filled with an array of myths and rituals, and symbols all of which seem to arise from the same psychological needs. If only humanity could read those symbols for what they are: the psychological responses to the grave and constant occurrences in all human life.
If we could read these symbols not as historical facts but rather as syncretic manifestations of human psychological need, then perhaps, we could move away from the negative aspects of religious dogma.
It seems nonsensical to assume one mythological system out of this vast array of remarkably similar systems is the one and only way.
How did we end up on this speck of a world in a space so vast we can’t wrap our minds around it? How did we come to have this experience of being? Why all the pain? Why death?
We may never know… it’s really as simple as that. If there’s something to worship maybe it’s just the strangeness of it all.
But religious orthodoxy seems out of place in a debate where the facts remain so unavailable.
Think of all the deities, semi deities and religious heroes that have experienced death and come back to tell about it from Gilgamish to Osiris to Persephone to Orpheus to Dionysus, how is it that Christ Jesus is then the “real historical” figure that “really” accomplished that feat?
The great genius of Christianity was to try and take myth and turn it into historical fact.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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"Ultimately, we cannot say there is or isn’t a God."
This is incorrect. Or simply sloppy. C'mon. Which God? Which deity? And to what standard of show, demonstration or proof?
Groups, organizations, individuals certainly have the ability to "say" to "decide" to conclude (and then move forward) that Aphrodite wasn't real (taking into account all factors, including the human factor, in the thinking). Same with Jehovah (aka Yahweh). Same with Quezalcoatl. C'mon.
This platitude hurts the movement. Reframe it. Sometimes atheists, agnostics, humanists etc are their own worst enemy.
You gotta pay attention to the language, the framing, the phraseology or you end up a patsie for the other side, in this case, the supernaturalists and their antiquated thinking.
That quote applies appropriately to only the most abstract of the god concepts (a hypothetical Intelligence or hypothetical Intelligent First Cause) about which we have no specific knowledge and can only at best speculate about. -A far cry from the God of Moses (God Jehovah) of the Christians and Muslims Who is chockfull of specific personality traits and Who likes to write books through the hands of humans in covert mysterious ways.
Reminder: 17. 17 what? 17 ohms? 17 gallons? 17 henrys? 17 seconds? 17 rads? 17 angstroms? 17 kNewtons? Stop playing into their hands, the supernaturalists love it. Stop "dangling deities." Don't dangle participles. Don't dangle unitless numbers. Don't dangle deities. Break the habit loved by Abrahamic supernaturalists. If you're going to talk about a deity, specify which one or don't at all. Unless your goal is actually to add to the misunderstanding or argument- but I don't think it is.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 15, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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paul roehl -- "Ultimately, we cannot say there is or isn’t a God."
Huh????
So now you've taken the position of god and giving ultimate's.
I've said many times that God exists and when someone tries to deny or doesn't know/understand what God is they immediately imitate/take the position of God.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 15, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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There must be a logical thread to that statement Werner, but damned if I can find it.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Werner,
Paul says, "Ultimately, we cannot say there is or isn’t a God." Meaning that no one can prove that there is, or prove that there isn't a god.
You say, many times, with absolute certainty and no proof, that there is a god.
So who is taking "the position of god and giving ultimate's (sic)?
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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So, why do you believe in God, rrAdam? I believe I remember seeing that you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior earlier. Since you can't lose your salvation, what now?
Edit: see John 3:16
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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Some court cases are decided, "beyond a resonable doubt", on circumstantial evidence alone. Read: http://www.gotquestions.org/why-believe-resurrection.html
"In Summary:
These lines of evidence: the demonstrable sincerity of the eyewitnesses (and in the Apostles’ case, compelling, inexplicable change), the conversion and demonstrable sincerity of key antagonists- and skeptics-turned-martyrs, the fact of the empty tomb, enemy attestation to the empty tomb, the fact that all of this took place in Jerusalem where faith in the resurrection began and thrived, the testimony of the women, the significance of such testimony given the historical context; all of these strongly attest to the historicity of the resurrection. We encourage our readers to thoughtfully consider these evidences. What do they suggest to you? Having pondered them ourselves, we resolutely affirm Sir Lionel’s declaration:
“The evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 15, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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Brian, Karl Baba- Care to comment on Fredrick's post?
Here's Brian (a philosophy prof) a couple of weeks ago:
"The fundamentalist and literalist religious perspective that Maher, Dennett, Dawkins, and Hitchens are so riled up about is a bit of a red herring. Not to say that some of their critiques are without merit, but they are woefully misinformed if they think all religious believers are simple literalists..."
Not "all" (they don't say all) but enough of a bunch to seriously affect things.
No red herring. Probably better than half of all Christians in 21st century American culture are literalists when it comes to God Jesus and Resurrection. To post as though they are at best a minority is the "disingenuous" post.
Brian's complete post:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1177667&msg=1178377#msg1178377
Sam Harris is right on: Moderates cover for the fundamentalists. It's time they stopped. Till they do, they're reflective of the "moderate" Muslim world that doesn't speak up- and against- the Islamic jihadists.
EDIT Fredrick- Ever have a science course? And to the moderates- Am I insulting or elitist or simply without reason or justification to ask this? Is not Fredrick an adult, a citizen of a 21st century democracy whose responsibility is to get and keep informed, who entered this thread (where debate is a given) off his own volition?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Psalm 135:13, Your name, O Lord, endures forever,
your renown, O Lord, throughout all ages.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Since I haven’t read Dennett’s book, Consciousness Explained, which was referred to by Ed, I looked it up on Amazon and this particular statement by a reviewer caught my eye.
“What is different in his counter-intuitive theory is the claim that human consciousness, rather than being "hard-wired" into the brain's innate machinery, is more like software "running on the brain's parallel hardware" and is largely a product of cultural evolution”.
This is of course the stance taken by anthropology, and results from a comparison of the fossil record, where we note that Homo Neandertal (300,000-30,000 B.P.) had a brain size averaging from 25% larger than modern Homo sapiens. This is surprising since the growth of brain size over time has been correlated with increasing intelligence from the earliest Homonins of nearly 7 million years ago, down to the emergence of Homo sapiens approximately 190,000 years before the present. In trying to understand why H.s. whose technology and culture was clearly more advanced than Neandertal’s, should have been so while utilizing a smaller brain, the obvious answer was the use of language.
Anthropologists would agree with Dennett that language is the software of the brain which enabled it to be much more efficient with a smaller size, a distinct evolutionary advantage since the brain consumes so much of our total caloric intake. It is also understood that the size of the Neanderthal baby’s head had about reached the maximum that can make it through the birth canal of an upright walking mother. It is even thought by some that maternal and infant mortality due to their large sized brains helps account for why Neandertals became extinct.
The language-culture connection is seen when we compare ourselves to our closest relatives in the animal world. Chimpanzees have been discovered to have rudimentary elements of culture. That is, the methods of making sticks to invade termite mounds for easy protein, differ between groups of the same species residing in different areas of Africa. Without language however, there’s a limitation to how much knowledge can be passed on to the next generation. Language among other things, enables thought to be transmitted across time and generations.
In any case, Dennett’s and anthropology’s view of human intelligence and consciousness seems quite removed from a purely mechanistic explanation.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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"(Dennett's view)...seems quite removed from a purely mechanistic explanation."
If Dennett were dead, he'd be rolling in his grave after hearing that. Dennett's view is positively unequivocally 100.0% mechanistic.
The cure for this misconception, for the serious student, is about 30 months of serious study (in books, perhaps motivated if not by interest then by a good grade) instead of 30 minutes (at Amazon, Reviews). Otherwise, the commentary is just babble, noise.
EDIT
Curious, Jan, would you say software is materialistic or mechanistic? I mean, go with your intuition right now in real time before you study it for an hour or more at Wikipedia.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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"It is only a tiny rosebud,
A flower of God's design;
But I cannot unfold the petals
With these clumsy hands of mine."
"The secret of unfolding flowers
Is not known to such as I.
GOD opens this flower so easily,
But in my hands they die."
"If I cannot unfold a rosebud,
This flower of God's design,
Then how can I have the wisdom
To unfold this life of mine?"
"So I'll trust in God for leading
Each moment of my day.
I will look to God for guidance
In each step of the way."
"The path that lies before me,
Only my Lord knows.
I'll trust God to unfold the moments,
Just as He unfolds the rose."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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Fructose-
You and I have opposing and seemingly irreconcilable views of the nature of consciousness. The difference is I'm just putting my ideas out there and you're actively trying to convert everyone to yours.
You're right I haven't read Dennett, so it would be interesting to hear whether someone like Ed who has, agrees with your interpretation.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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High Fructose wrote:
"This new, or modern, scienced based practice of living (right now lacking a name in pop culture) will emphasis (a) this-world living, (b) coping strategies for life's predicaments or pickles and letdowns, (c) a new narrative (or narratives) based on the Scientific Story that explains (i) how the world works, (ii) how life works, (iii) how humans ought to live, (d) lifeguidance strategies (based on "what matters" and "what works" in addition to "what is")."
----------
The idea of tossing all the snake oil and fundamentalist foolishness found in a lot of religious belief structures, in the search of a new mode of living, based on “facts” and “reality” according to a materialist belief system/cosmology, is IMO, a noble goal. Such a goal will also run smack dab into one of the most slippery slopes in philosophy (and there is no way whatsoever to avoid philosophy here) – namely, ethics.
An ethics based on quantifiable “facts” has long been sought, specifically by acquiring a laundry list of somewhat objective “truth values” per human actions and behaviors. It works somewhat like this:
In logic and mathematics, a logical or “truth value” indicates the relation of a proposition to the plain “truth.” In classical logic, the truth values are true and false. The hope of scientifically informed ethics is that behavior can also, somehow, be posited in objective or quantifiable terms.
In attempting to design a moral behavioral code, you’ll officially become a moral philosopher, handling moral concepts such as good and bad, noble and ignoble, right and wrong, justice, and virtue. Perhaps the criteria for an action might be practicality or effectiveness, and the relative morality would be assigned in those terms.
“Scientific ethics” will involve so-called meta-ethics, concerning the assigned meaning and reference of moral propositions and how their truth-values may be determined. You’ll also run up against “normative ethics,” which concerns the practical means of determining what the hell to do.
A “fact based” code will fall somewhere within the scope of “evolutionary ethics,” an ethical approach and investigation based on the role of evolution in shaping human psychology and behavior. Typically these approaches draw heavily from evolutionary psychology or sociobiology.
That's some VERY heavy going, but a whole lot of very smart and dedicated folks have been working on this for ages. I'm sure they'll welcome new input.
JL
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:59am PT
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Dr. F.,
Tell me why this is no proof.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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Speaking of sociobiology, here's some of the latest from E.O. Wilson whom it may be remembered, earned the wrath of women and anthropologists in the 1960's for his statements on biological determinism.
Kind of interesting to see his recent evolution.
A few paraphrases:
The predisposition to religious belief is an ineradicable part of human behavior.
God and rituals of religion are products of evolution. They should not be rejected or dismissed, but further investigated by science to better understand their significance to human nature.
Scientists should "offer the hand of friendship" to religious leaders and build an alliance with them .... "Science and religion are two of the most potent forces on Earth and they should come together to save the creation."
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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Dr. F.,
Even the Bible is challenging you in Isaiah 41:21-24:
"21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.
22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you."
God is putting everything on the line by stating this. If He's wrong, then prove him wrong. If it's that easy, then do it! I haven't seen a reasonable rebuttle to this since this thread has started. Only responses such as yours Dr. F.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:14am PT
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"Do you have any information about this from an independent historical source, is it written in Roman historical records?
No, why,
because its a Lie, no one has ever resurrected, that's a FACT."
From the above link that I posted Dr. F. (edit: http://www.gotquestions.org/why-believe-resurrection.html);,
,
"The non-Christian historical accounts of Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Maimonides and even the Jewish Sanhedrin corroborate the early Christian eyewitness accounts of these important historical aspects of the death of Jesus Christ."
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:21am PT
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High Fructose,
I'd say asking that question was insulting, but, again, it appears that when other's, ie; illusiondweller, et al, post such responses, they get's "insulting" responses as well.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:23am PT
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Juan - what the hell: delete this one too and make them start over yet again.
I love the futility - spin cycle ON!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:24am PT
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I like this Jan, "they should come together to save the creation."
Belief in God offers just this "gift" of salvation. A gift is free with no thought of return. All you have to do is accept it. Wow, good for you Jan!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:32am PT
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Frederick-
If two views come together they form a synthesis which is different from either of the originals. Neither E.O. Wilson nor myself are proposing a return to your belief system.
His reference by the way, was to saving creation from ecological disaster, and had nothing to do with the idea of saving souls.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:33am PT
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Has anyone read Josephus?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:41am PT
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I seem to be the only one hammering on this one but I think it's worth it because getting totally clear on the "reductionist stance" is essential.
Dr. F wrote this:
Thoughts are energy, not atoms
Obviously thoughts are energy, but material reductionism states that any thing, entity, or quality (and a thought qualifies as such) was without exception produced by material antecedents, meaning the thoughts that have an energetic signal that can be picked up by an EEG, were produced by the atomic activity in the evolved brain. Another fact is that energy cannot be destroyed, and what's more, your suggestion that energy and atoms are somehow different "things" is also questionable. For instance, in the mass–energy equivalence formula E=mc2, mass and energy are more than equivalent, they are different forms of the same "thing."
Next: Thoughts are not a material, no atoms are arranged, and preserved as a thought molecule.
Material reductionism does not state or imply that everything that the material evolved brain "creates" is also "material," or an arrangement of atomic material that lives on in space/time as atomic material. Material reductionism simply says that every real "thing," as defined as having measurable qualities (in this case, the electrical charge of brain waves), is the direct causal consequence of atomic activity. If you are now proposing that a "thought" is not a "thing" because it is not "material," then you are, perforce, saying that thoughts are not "real," which leads you, incontrovertibly to the conclusion that energy is also not real, for the lack of mass, and that other zero-mass particles (photos) are also not real or things. You also toss out out other ephemeria lacking mass such as smell, sight, love, hate, cognition, and so forth. All of these things come and go, and leave no molecular structure behind - though memory or a smell, say, must have some material correlate in the brain.
Next: "No purest atheist supports your contention that thoughts or souls, "are things", and go on existing past their short time as being expressed."
Here you are suggesting that a thought, which you have called an energetic entity, is logically correlated with a "soul." Is the soul, then, also an energetic "non-thing?" What's more, are you saying that for something to be "real," or a "thing," that it has to materially "exist." Well, for how long? What is a true "something" that truly exists and doesn't cease to exist "past its short time as being expressed." The universe itself comes and goes. Because it goes, does that mean it isn't a thing and isn't real?
Next: "a thought comes and goes, (it is dead after that).
What doesn't come and go? Other than energy, which cannot be destroyed but only converted.
Next: "a human soul is born, lives, then dies, and NO ENERGIES persist after that"
I think you mean that a human body is born, lives and dies and so forth.
Hoe can a soul be born? Does a soul have mass, or energy? And if it has energy, it CANNOT be destroyed. But the form can die and the energy presumably goes elsewhere and into some other form.
Next: No connections to any other soul, other than an observation of their existence
Name one real thing, or one single energetic entity, or one thought, or feeling, that is not connected to the universe via direct causation. Just one. It is a trick question because there is no such "thing" or non-thing.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:56am PT
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wow, lot's here, but still there aren't many discussions of consciousness, Largo is setting up boarders... but first
I bet Ed's more a Penrose-Tipler guy than a Steven Weinberg guy. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) So because I'm more a Steven Weinberg guy this is probably why we don't get each other esp in regard to each other's language, manner of speaking or posting, and approach.
Whats more, seems to me, Ed's emphasis at least in his posts is science's predictive and theoretical values, whereas my emphasis is the practical knowledge systems revealed by science, what we can build with these, what we can model, in and out of engineering for example and including what new foundations we can build with science's help as as basis for new practices in the practice of living.
well actually HFCS, I'm a Ed Hartouni kind of a guy, and it actually is an interesting way to insult someone by saying they are not practical... my background is in experimental physics, and I am practical. Especially when it comes to trying to define the problem I'm working on, so here it's consciousness. Engineering is not science, though it builds on science, it does not have the requirement to understand things from first principals, and tries to come up with solutions that work, solutions that are "good enough."
I am a reductionist, materialist, etc, etc... and I do believe (and it is a belief) that there is a scientific explanation for consciousness.
I agree with Largo's assertion that thoughts are things. Those thoughts are real even if the content of the thoughts are not. It shouldn't be so hard for Dr. F to understand that... we can have thoughts about things that do not and cannot exist, it doesn't mean the thought doesn't exist.
However, Largo previously stated that he hears from his scientist friends that the symbols of modern quantum field theory (I particularly liked the "glutons" presumable the particles that eats a lot of other particles; I think you meant "gluons" the particles that stick the "partons" together) "and all the rest have almost exact and observable correlates in consciousness and Mind. How could it possibly be different?"
Of course, as a physicist, I'd like a precise definition of what consciousness and Mind are, and also be a bit more quantitative on how they map onto quantum field theory. But Largo won't let me go there, as he has denied that there is any validity in measurement, in quantifying "consciousness and Mind" and all we have is unquantifiable experience.
The problem with this sort of experience is that terms like "almost" really have no meaning, or rather they could mean anything. So comments like the one Largo made have no greater authority but some sort of shared experience among a group of people who come to some consensus as to the meaning of those experiences. All well and good, but the basis of that authority could be flawed, they may actually reach a consensus and get it wrong. How can you tell?
Back to consciousness, Largo goes on to say,
I think a comprehensive definition of consciousness would start with the the question of trying to list what is not merely mechanical or "caused" or "produced" by "bottom-up" causality, that which you cannot reverse engineer to atomic generative forces.
which I find interesting and a little humorous, since our understanding of "atomic generative forces" are a product of scientific thought and reasoning and represent our best predictive models of how the universe works. This model is, of course, an approximation and as such has a provisional quality. We expect it to be replaced by a more accurate approximation in time, as we learn more. And that world view is a product of the very reductionism that Largo has declared a "dead end." It is of course very much alive and kicking, and producing more knowledge.
However any definition of consciousness would be welcome in this latest bit of discussion.
So it seems to me that we say we are "conscious" of some thing when we can "explain" it. This is the origin of my supposition above of the connection between consciousness and language. The common experience is acting to some "subconscious" stimulus, for instance, in my Ahwiyah Point trip I retreated from the climb for reasons I could not quite articulate to myself. Later, when I observed the avalanche close to where I had been, I wondered if I did not subconsciously know that there was avalanche danger. I don't mean that some angel talked to me, rather, I was aware of the signs, etc, without being conscious of it, that is, without being able to articulate my awareness.
Similarly, try to imagine what "consciousness" would be in the absence of language. Actually, it is a meditative goal to "quiet the chatter" that seems to go on all the time, all these thoughts boiling up, and manifesting in the internal dialog which we have. The fact that most people do not recall being "conscious" prior to having language is interesting... few have memories of being conscious in their first year or so of life... perhaps we aren't.
Mathematics, logic, etc, are all languages and all contribute to a particular conscious state.
If one practices "turning off" all of this intentionally it may be possible to experience a state of mind quite beyond our conscious experience. I say "may be possible" because we revert back to our conscious habit, we communicate the experience, or try to, to others, compare notes and share techniques. Those states certainly exist, and there is no doubt in my mind that one can learn how to create a state of mind quite different than our usual state.
So further speculating on the need for consciousness you could try to understand what you use it for... and that I think is simply as a model for understanding your own thoughts and the thoughts of others, it is a map of the self and of its social interactions. In this model I am not the only conscious being. Because we communicate our thoughts, and we only communicate our conscious thoughts by definition, I can "navigate" our social interaction with this model of consciousness... comparing your thoughts with my thoughts, and then trying to interpret what you mean by working out what I would mean if I had the same thoughts.
This might have become important as our behavior became more complex and harder to understand. There is a competitive advantage to hiding our intent, and a similar advantage to figuring out hidden intent.
It would also explain why there are these connections between our understanding of the world and our perception of the conscious and unconscious, our constructions of the world do affect our consciousness through the creation of language and its extension of the model we construct explaining the world. This is not a mystical statement, it is just a practical boot-strap. Consciousness is explained differently depending on the particular world view the individual explaining it has... so in the end, we might be far off track regarding consciousness, it might just be an extension of our social behavior.
This does not cover all of what consciousness is, of course. It doesn't explain how it arises, except to defer that to acquiring language. The physiological experience of consciousness, unconsciousness and the manipulation of these states through various means, say by the use of anesthesia, are quite well understood. These sorts of things have direct associations with brain components, the associations that strongly imply that the conscious state is the product of the brain.
Those are some of my recent thinking on this subject... thinking which takes very seriously the religious, spiritual, mystical experience as a different way to look at thought. Certainly there are many cultural differences that provide contrast to our western experience, there is psychoanalysis which has explored similar ground for different reasons... and there is computer science and the concept of artificial intelligence which tries to bring a more precise definition of some of the concepts. All of these things have been rolling around in my head for a long time...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:00am PT
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The gift of religious salvation comes not from God but from man in the form of artful religious metaphors that offer a sense of reconciliation to the pain of existence.
Who is on the cross after all? Who is the sufferer? Not God, for how can God suffer? That's you up there my friend you just don't get the metaphor.
As for Josephus, he was a traitor to the Jews, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him.
And oh yeah, James Brown rules!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:04am PT
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Ed wrote-
well actually HFCS, I'm a Ed Hartouni kind of a guy I predicted you were going to say that.
In no way was my calling out practical knowledge systems referencing you as not practical. Perhaps re-read.
Carl Sagan had a term for what you describe, what perhaps you felt before the snow fall: arcane calculus. I've used it too for 20 years more or less as a synonym for intuition, brain-based intuition.
So if you're a materialist, reductionist, why don't you stick your head out more where it can count and call out these guys who say for instance their ideas are dead in the water? What, you're the good cop and I'm the bad cop? If the bad cops are more strident or loud, perhaps it is because there are so few of them in the multitudes and their "arcane calculus" tells them time might be running out.
Also, my undergraduate is in engineering, control engineering, and engineers (a) are applied scientists and (b) work up off of "first principles". So I guess we disagree here too. Oh well, such is language.
Largo is grasping at straws on much if not most of his consciousness-mind talk. His cup is full. He's dug in like a tick. Whatever metaphor, they both work.
Certainly, thoughts are things. Dr. F. needs to rethink that one. That leaves us in agreement, Ed, on this latter note. Thanks for your post. Maybe I'll read it again in the morning over coffee.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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High Fructose,
"I'd say asking that question was insulting, but, again, it appears that when other's, ie; illusiondweller, et al, post such responses, they get's "insulting" responses as well."
Sorry, I stand corrected, this was an honest question, and to answer it, "Yes."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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HFCS asks:
So if you're a materialist, reductionist, why don't you stick your head out more where it can count and call out these guys who say for instance their ideas are dead in the water?
I do stick my neck out... but I am trying to understand what they are saying. I know most of these people, John, Werner, Gary, Jan, Karl, and others beyond STForum... and I consider them to be thoughtful and intelligent. When they argue some point it is because they've thought about it, and I'd like to understand what their reasoning is... whether I agree or not, it helps me understand the particular point much better.
My thinking on this whole matter had stalled many years ago, I found participating in this discussion helpful in making a few things clearer in my own thoughts, and trying to understand their thoughts also.
Science asks a set of questions that are limited, and the answers do not fully satisfy what most people want to understand. For me it helps to put everything in perspective, but that's just me. I'm happy to contribute my point of view from time to time... but I'm not in it to "win" a cultural war here on STForum... but to learn.
As for "arcane calculus," that is a classic dodge, the name really doesn't mean anything... you fall into the same problems as with "intuition" or "the voice of God." The whole point is to explain and define what you're talking about. Sagan was just as clueless as the rest of us posting here...
...try not to fall into the same trap. Explain what you mean... stick your neck out...
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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Word, Ed.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:21am PT
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God suffered because he left heaven...
"7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
"...death, even the death of the cross."
Conclusion, God suffered.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:26am PT
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do you believe in John Lennon?
he was way bigger than jeeeeeeezus,
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:27am PT
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"Gary" do you mean me (wink)?
I have to give glory to God Ed for how I respond is just from what little I know of the Word.
Btw, I still wish I had more time during the Shindig to spend with you. I was really hoping to get a chance. Maybe next time.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:28am PT
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How can God suffer? He's God after all. To make God capable of suffering is to make him fallible, susceptible to something greater than himself.
He certainly didn't suffer the anxiety of death as he was certain, as God, of the outcome.
If he wasn't certain then how could he be God?
Where is the sense in all this?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:36am PT
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Which God Paul? The God of Moses? The God of Einstein? Your question is meaningless.
If it's in reference to ID who's a fundamentalist Christian, that would be Jehovah, God Jehovah.
EDIT 11:40p So call him on Jehovah. Try it. It is effective.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:39am PT
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Yes, it is meaningless and that's the whole point. You can't construct a deity out of what you can't know or make sense of.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:17am PT
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Seems to me this (very interesting) discussion needs to use the process employed for proving a mathematical theorem.
1. First, state your
assumptions and axioms
theorems already proven
2. Proceed from that basis
using an accepted (logical) process
Without even invoking Darwin, I would suggest a good axiom with which we might start is that we are creatures designed to survive. Assuming this one has to ask, what is the definition of survival?
It is that the creature expects another moment, much like the present moment shall shortly follow.
There is your definition of "consciousness."
I have posed before the question of what thought would be like were one to have never learned a language. Jan had actual data on this. Until I manage to address that question I feel ill-prepared to engage in high level philosophical discussion.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:23am PT
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I believe awareness is the best word I can muster to describe consciousness and this awareness seems to be even more acute in the absence of language.
Although I have spent much time in meditation striving for a thoughtless state, I’ve only been able to experience it while meditating for a few seconds or minutes at most, and I always had the sensation that thoughts were hovering in the background just waiting to break through again. I’ve experienced longer periods of being very alert without discursive thoughts running through my head while out in nature, just observing rather than thinking or judging what was going on.
My only prolonged experience of being thoughtless however, happened spontaneously and lasted more than an hour. I was on the beach with my dog after two months of intensive spiritual practice involving several hours each day. At the beach, I focused on the horizon where a cloudless sky met tropical blue water. Suddenly my thought processes turned off completely. I was unable to form a single word, yet I was hyperaware of my surroundings. I had the impression that consciousness was like a large cloud overhead which had suddenly descended to envelop my mind, incorporate it and release it from the usual chatter. My mind was released from its egocentrism and became a part of something larger.The silence seemed very loud or perhaps it was just the surf crashing.
I walked up and down the beach for another hour, so basic motor skills were not affected, just the ability to think using language. I did not trust my motor skills enough to try to drive however. Gradually it went away and I was left wondering the purpose of such an experience.
Appropo of the discussions above, clearly both the thinking and non thinking state involve the brain. The bigger question is how was the state of my brain functioning altered and by what? It certainly felt like the experience was imposed from outside myself. As has been pointed out however, perceptions can be deceptive. If in fact, I did this to myself, the question then is how, since I wasn’t actively engaged in meditation at the time, and I did not have it as my intention when it happened, and I’ve never been able to repeat it. I was simply resting my mind with a sense of gratitude at the beauty of nature. On the other hand this and every other experience of the thoughtless state, however short, have fairly closely followed engagement with traditional spiritual practices.
The other question is how might this fit into an evolutionary perspective? Did I in fact experience a type of homonid consciousness as it existed before the invention of language? It strikes me that this type of consciousness could be useful to a hunter looking for game or a gatherer, striving not to become prey. Is this kind of experience simply a reversion to an earlier state of evolutionary consciousness? Was the ability to talk to both animals and God which is described in so many traditions as a past Golden Age, in fact the period of our history when we didn’t communicate in words?
I remain open to varying interpretations of this experience.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2010 - 06:35am PT
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The discussion is so anthropomorphic. Look at 'life' from prions and virii up through 'higher order' mammals and you can survey a very fine spectrum of 'consciousness'. I find nothing particularly comparatively unique about human 'intelligence' or 'consciousness' within that specturm other than we occupy one end of it.
I also view consciousness as strictly an attribute and expression of our wetware not all that different than the computer you're reading this on. You're browsing away and the CPU[s] on your motherboard is humming away full of 'thoughts'; pull the plug and poof, it's all gone. Same thing in our wetware when you stop a heart; poof, adios, arrivederci. I just view being 'human' and human reasoning as one of the gifts of our species' development and 'success' - not a gift from god or some momentarily detached splash from an eternal pool of consciousness.
I'm always surprised people have a problem with their existence simply going 'poof' and with the idea that humans are some sort of special 'poof' case where our thoughts are somehow more worthy of some form of celestial persistence than any other species. And that's without getting into the fact that most of the cells in your body aren't human or for that matter neither is a good chunk of your DNA.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 07:01am PT
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rrrADAM- "Again WHY do you believe this?"
Because I have met God The Living Word! He is alive, and erases any doubt of who He is, including in Scripture. For He is The Living Word.
I gave a simple example of one of the many ways He has communicated to me. And there was no way I could have realized, in 1962 at the age of 12, that it was wrong and self defeating/damaging to carry any sort of unforgiving/anger in my heart(no matter how humanly justifiable). But He instructed me otherwise. It is a personal story/revelation. And I know that with your material mind, you will choose to rationalize it.
All I can say is that its not yet to late for you to know Him, to have a personal relationship with Him. He is only a breath away.
But you will continue to "Ignore, ignore, deny, deny..." but remember..."He who denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in Heaven." Matthew 10:33
This is all foolishness to you...no surprise. Sad to say that you are the fool. "For the fool says there is no God."
trp... You didn't even attempt to answer the question I asked you... Let's review:At the second coming, our physical bodies will be resurrected(and united with our spirit)and we will thus be forever. Jesus was the first to be resurrected, and He was recognized, touched, and ate food etc. Adam and Eve were designed to live for ever. God had/has a perfect plan for all His creation, and He will bring it to fruition. These "spirits/souls" you speak of will return mature, and be perfect physically and spiritually. To live and reign with Christ. Initially here on earth(for 1,000 yrs)...
OK... You just regurgitated what you've been taught, which is why I specifically said:
It would be nice if you dont' just repeat what you've been told by someone, or make something up yourself... Please, explain "why" you believe this. Is there a scriptural basis?
Again... "WHY" do you believe this? Why will the 'spirits/souls' "return mature, and be perfect physically and spiritually."? Where do you get that from? Does the 'source / evidence' to support that belief warrant such confidense?
And, how would that work? Please, use for an example the soul of an infant... What would his/her life experiences consist of? And, since one has to accept Christ to be saved, how would infant souls even be saved? Or do you suggest that ALL infant souls are automatically saved (again: WHY?), even if they are children of say Muslims, Hindus, or even Satanists?
Please... Address these points, as it really looks like you are just making this up, or believing what someone else has made up without really thinking about it.
You confidently stated that people will be resurrected and united with their souls, all perfect. I asked you why you believed "THAT".
Now, look at your reply above... Twice you didn't even attempt to answer that. You make a confident statement, and if you believe that is is reasonable, then you should have no problem reasonable articulating "why" you believe it.
This IS exactly why I keep saying:
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
Because you are:
Ignoring... Ignoring... In order to Deny... Deny... Having to confront reality.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 07:18am PT
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I was simply pointing out to rrrADAM that his incessant chant of "ignore, ignore, deny, deny..." will come back to haunt him...for eternity! And felt obligated to offer him Hope! Self-righteous, self-serviong hypocracy... The fact is I do a better job of walking in the footsteps of Jesus than do you. You really need to research his true message and ministry, "historically", not your own choice of the many "traditional" beliefs, picking and chosing what serves YOU the best.
You have a very twisted view of what his message really was... For exapmle:
Your above statement shows that you are judging me, and damning me to Hell. What was it Jesus said about judging?
And you don't even pray to the same God that Jesus did... Remember, he spoke Aramaic (and a little Koine Greek), and taught and observed the OT, thus he fell prostrate and prayed to Allah. You pray to Jesus (E.g., "In Jesus' name I pray").
Jesus would rebuke you for breaking the 1st Commandmant: "You shall have no other Gods before me ... for I am a jealous God."
Now, I'm sure you will counter with "Jesus IS God"... "The Trinity". Ignoring the fact that the concept of the Trinity is a human construct established in the 4th century. Ignoring the sticky issue of who Jesus prayed to throughout his life. (Himslef?)
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
You wanna know the kicker?
What other major Abrahamic religion falls prostrate and prays to Allah as Jesus did?
Did you know that they too are awaiting the 2nd coming of Christ, and that the Virgin Mary is mentioned more by name in the Qur'an than she is in the Bible?
More for you to:
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
BTW... The "Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny..." is just holding you accountable to the FACT that you do "Ignore and Deny" that which doesn't fit neetly into your box of dogma. I don't mean to be offensive with it, but instead directly draw attention that you are being unreasonable by ignoring and denying anything that competes with your view that you cannot reasonably dispute.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 07:38am PT
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So, why do you believe in God, rrAdam? I believe I remember seeing that you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior earlier. Since you can't lose your salvation, what now?
Edit: see John 3:16 Cool... Then as per your implication and belief, I can continue to convert brainwashed Fundies out of the darkness of theism and into the light, AND I'm still "saved". (I have 3 friends who were Fundies, and are now atheists after much direct yet gentle discourse over time.)
Pretty rediculous, huh? But that is what you are saying... That I'm still "saved". So like you said: "What now"? Am I still saved, no matter what, since I used to believe, or are you WRONG?
See... That's the thing with Christianity... It's the ultimate "get out of jail free card"... Steal a bike, pray for forgiveness... Osama bin Ladin genuinely accepts Jesus into his heart, and askes him to forgive him his sins, "just" before he dies... All good. When you break it down, it doesn't matter what you do in life, only in what you believe... That's it. Just belief... All else are merely 'suggestions', but have zero bearing on whether or not you get to Heaven... Pedophilia, murder, greed, self-righteousness (popular amongst Xians), etc... All don't matter, just believe right in the end.
Very convenient... And, people just chose the denomination that has "beliefs" they find attractive, and if they don't find one they like, they can just start their own denomination.
To be honest... I was a born again Lutheran, just as confident as anyone in this thread. Witnissing and fellowshipping.
Thing is, I didn't "ignore / deny" many of the same questions and points I am trying to get you to address. When I really looked into the objectively, I realized the absurdity of my belief system.
As I said earlier... A significant portion of Biblical scholars are agnsotics or atheists. This is because when you combine objective disciplined thinking, as gradute students are taught, and an expertise in the material, many can see the absurdity in it all.
To prove my point...
I have made MANY points, and asked many questions, NONE have which have really been answered or even addressed by the 'faithful'... Only ignored. See, I addressed them, and had to face the fact that my belief was unreasonable.
Read this... It is very touching, and sad at the same time:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3884?page=3
You know, there even several support groups for people who leave the flock, as for many, that's all they've known, and like the man above, have been disowned by their families for not "believing like they do" (how very Christian):
http://new.exchristian.net/
You like spraying your 'testomonials' here, go read some of theirs, for a more balanced view. But you won't do that, will you?
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 07:59am PT
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Some court cases are decided, "beyond a resonable doubt", on circumstantial evidence alone. Read: http://www.gotquestions.org/why-believe-resurrection.html
"In Summary:
These lines of evidence: the demonstrable sincerity of the eyewitnesses (and in the Apostles’ case, compelling, inexplicable change), the conversion and demonstrable sincerity of key antagonists- and skeptics-turned-martyrs, the fact of the empty tomb, enemy attestation to the empty tomb, the fact that all of this took place in Jerusalem where faith in the resurrection began and thrived, the testimony of the women, the significance of such testimony given the historical context; all of these strongly attest to the historicity of the resurrection. We encourage our readers to thoughtfully consider these evidences. What do they suggest to you? Having pondered them ourselves, we resolutely affirm Sir Lionel’s declaration:
“The evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”
As I posted earlier:
Note... If you are unfamiliar with the Branch Davidians you should read up on it first, here's a great source of information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Dividian
Imagine for a moment that David Koresh, whom we all know was killed allong with many of his followers in Waco, TX when his compound burned, reappeared and claimed to be resurrected, which is proof of his claim to be the Messiah.
He was willing to prove this by submitting to DNA tests, to prove that it really was him, and that he had in fact been resurected from the dead.
To move through this quickly, we will state that the entire process of DNA verification has been thorough and transparent. (i.e. Previous DNA samples from him and his family prove a valid standard, DNA confirmation of his burnt corpse, and present DNA, transparent and perfect chain of custody of samples, perfect lab practices to preclude contaminations, and all this has even been tripple verified at 2 other labs independantly, who collected their own samples, etc... Hell, for good measure he even turned the Sparklets water to wine in the labs, simply by touching the bottle on the cooler, as we'll say he has a sense of humor.)
And any other tests asked of him, he performed and passed.
Now... My point is, that I do NOT currently believe in the supernatural, because there is absolutely no 'evidence' of it... But that I would be forced to believe that he has been resurected, despite my 'strong belief' that it would be impossible, as I would now see overwhelming evidence that it is possible, and in fact has happened. I would believe it, and would reconsider my atheism. So I am open minded enough to consider any evidence, and let it lead me where it takes me, despite my present views.
How about the 'faithfull'... Would they believe it ??? Would they believe that something that's prophecised in their 'faith', and that actually comes with overwhelming proof, is true in the form of David Koresh ??? Would they put all their faith in David Koresh, and believe him to be their Messiah ???
If not, then why not ??? It has been prophecised, it even comes with proof--proof that cannot be explained away, or even reasonably doubted. Would it be because it doesn't fit with what they want to happen--their hopes ??? For those who forsake him, David even asks them directly, "What would it take for you to believe I am the Messiah?" Would they believe it if he provided that proof as well ???
Now, given the above, please answer the question I posed in it ???
How about the 'faithfull'... Would they believe it ??? Would they believe that something that's prophecised in their 'faith', and that actually comes with overwhelming proof, is true in the form of David Koresh ??? Would they put all their faith in David Koresh, and believe him to be their Messiah ???
See, I'd have to believe it, but would you ???
Point is, I am more open minded that you 'think you are', as I am guided by the evidence... You are guided by your desires to maintain your faith, and the way you 'want' things to be, and those desires influence what you see as reality.
I look forward to your reply regarding this, however, I predict that you will just:
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 08:07am PT
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Psalm 135:13, Your name, O Lord, endures forever,
your renown, O Lord, throughout all ages.
At least post something practical, this is a climbing site...
Proverbs 31:6&7
Give strong drink unto him who is about to perish, and wine unto those with heavy hearts. Let them drink to forget their poverty, and remember their misery no more.
Anybody into unicorns, dragons, and even centaurs?
They're in their too... Just like Narnia.
Although I prefer The Dragon in Carl Sagan's Garage:
http://thinkingasaprofession.blogspot.com/2009/01/dragon-in-my-garage-by-carl-sagan.html
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 08:13am PT
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Dr. F.,
Tell me why this is no proof. Frederick,
Tell me why there is no proof that I am not God.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 08:36am PT
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Similarly, try to imagine what "consciousness" would be in the absence of language. Actually, it is a meditative goal to "quiet the chatter" that seems to go on all the time, all these thoughts boiling up, and manifesting in the internal dialog which we have. The fact that most people do not recall being "conscious" prior to having language is interesting... few have memories of being conscious in their first year or so of life... perhaps we aren't.
Ed, that is pretty much what I wrote in different replies yesterday:re: language and conciousness...
We think with words... Just try "thinking" without them, as we construct out thoughts and think things through with words.
. . .
I would say that since adults with a more fully formed brain (I.e., more neural connections) have a higher level of conciousness/awareness than that of a toddler or infant, and, since that level of conciousness/awareness seems to wane as one ages in their latter years along with their brain through lack of stimulation (atrophy) or degrading neural connections, this strongly suggests that conciousness is directly proportional to the brain and it's structure. I see no evidence for anything outside of the structure of the brain being required. Note - Not fully understanding is NOT a requirement, IMHO.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:11am PT
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jan--
i think the metaphor of computers applies and indicates that it isn't necessarily language that made the human race take off. computers kept getting bigger for awhile. the old univacs used to take up a small warehouse. then microtechnology kicked in. computers got smaller and smaller and yet more powerful. the analogy extends too--the more sophisticated the hardware, the more sophisticated the software.
there's an interesting cat-and-mouse game going between mathematics and physics. it seems every time there's a "breakthrough" in advanced mathematics, physicists wake up to it a few years later and say, wow, that really applies to a problem we're working on. funny how evolution works.
forget about dumb climbers understanding all this. i have a book somewhere with a centerspread outlining the structure of the field of mathematical knowledge in an extensive two-page flowchart. it must have 30-40 compartments, and only a half dozen or so are labeled with words most of us would recognize. the footnote is that most experts in any one compartment have a pretty difficult time understanding what's going on in the compartment next door.
but then there's that guy who spends a month at a time on the wall of el cap and tells us he knows all about quantum mechanics. they tried to make him get a realworld job a couple years ago, but fermilab wasn't hiring.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 16, 2010 - 10:49am PT
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rAdam- good stuff there. e.g., the proverbs quote. I'll check out the sagan link later.
"I don't mean to be offensive with it, but instead directly draw attention that you are being unreasonable by ignoring and denying anything that competes with your view that you cannot reasonably dispute."
Some may you call shrill or loud or arrogant (because that's all they have to fall back on), so what, let them. You're doing good work calling out the "snake oil" bullsh#t, supernaturalist bullsh#t. It's time a majority of American culture faced the realities. Besides, they're not THAT bad anyway.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 11:18am PT
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This is heavy going and I have to work but look at this:
I said:
I think a comprehensive definition of consciousness would start with the the question of trying to list what is not merely mechanical or "caused" or "produced" by "bottom-up" causality, that which you cannot reverse engineer to atomic generative forces.
Ed said: I find interesting and a little humorous, since our understanding of "atomic generative forces" are a product of scientific thought and reasoning and represent our best predictive models of how the universe works. This model is, of course, an approximation and as such has a provisional quality. We expect it to be replaced by a more accurate approximation in time, as we learn more. And that world view is a product of the very reductionism that Largo has declared a "dead end." It is of course very much alive and kicking, and producing more knowledge.
I said what I said because if I don't allow you to define the building blocks according to you own beliefs, then we'll just get into a circular argument of me saying something, of you redefining it according to your own beliefs and experiences, and us going back and forth ad nauseum.
So again, is there anything in the universe or in your "mind" - any process, zero-mass particle, quantum field, notion, context, background, ground of being, boogy man, hand crack, or vacuum from which energy and matter and arises and then vanishes once more, that is not "produced" by lower level atomic energy and that cannot be reverse engineered to be the direct outcome of brain activity or "matter en flux."
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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I know John, but I still like the "gluton" (1) and if I ever use it in a publication I'll reference you...
(1) John Long, 2010, private communication.
John asks:
So again, is there anything in the universe or in your "mind" - any process, zero-mass particle, quantum field, notion, context, background, ground of being, boogy man, hand crack, or vacuum from which energy and matter and arises and then vanishes once more, that is not "produced" by lower level atomic energy and that cannot be reverse engineered to be the direct outcome of brain activity or "matter en flux."
And I'd answer that what is in my "mind" is an approximation to what exists in the objective universe. This "map of the universe" is a construction, we could say it is algorithmic, and the algorithm is executed in the body (extending beyond the brain to include the entire nervous system).
The algorithm and the "machine" that runs the algorithm are tightly bound, like (simile!) the code we used to write to run efficiently on old computers... where efficiency was driven by limitations in cpu speed and memory size.
It is a well posed question: can you reverse engineer the thought from brain activity, and the answer may be that you cannot, that would be a mathematical categorization of the type of computational problem the inversion would represent.
But creating the exact thoughts is not what understanding consciousness is about, one cannot reproduce the exact trajectories of all the molecules in a bottle of gas to understand the physics of thermodynamics, or statistical mechanics...
...if you are worried about determinism as implied by classical mechanics, there is no worry in such a system as the brain where stochastic processes are important, and anyway, the nonlinearity of the system probably insures a sensitivity to the initial state which effectively prevents our ability to know what the brain's state evolution would be. You get a practical "free will" state because the number of states is so large...but not complete free will because there are limits to the domain of states.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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The soul is not created.
The individual soul transmigrates from body to body.
What is spread all over the body is consciousness.
Consciousness is the symptom of the souls existence.
The individual particle of spirit soul is a spiritual atom smaller than the material atoms.
The soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul.
The individual atomic soul is in the heart.
This confirmed by modern medical science that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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Well put, Werner.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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i think the metaphor of computers applies and indicates that it isn't necessarily language that made the human race take off. computers kept getting bigger for awhile. the old univacs used to take up a small warehouse. then microtechnology kicked in. computers got smaller and smaller and yet more powerful. the analogy extends too--the more sophisticated the hardware, the more sophisticated the software.
I've never seen this idea discussed in the anthropological literature for the obvious reason that we never find fossilized homonid brains so we have no way of measuring what the differences in internal structure might be from one species to another or even within a single species over time. About all we can do is note from studying impressions of the inside of fossil skulls, where the relative brain parts were and their size in relation to each other.
Judging from cultural relics however, it is remarkable that it took half a million to a million years to evolve a new tool tradition from 4.5mil. - 100,000 and then suddenly there were not only better tools, but a lot of evidence of art and ritual activity as well. It was not gradual but a sudden leap forward.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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When anthropologists find the dividing line in our dumps where microelectronics first begin showing up they are going to wonder " where did all this come from?" A new specie?
Parsing tremendous expanses in time is a huge challenge.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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No, you can not reverse engineer a thought
Does not reductionism insist that you MUST be able to reengineer everything to known, measurable, materialist antecedents. Otherwise, where did said thought come from?
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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So again, is there anything in the universe or in your "mind" - any process, zero-mass particle, quantum field, notion, context, background, ground of being, boogy man, hand crack, or vacuum from which energy and matter and arises and then vanishes once more, that is not "produced" by lower level atomic energy and that cannot be reverse engineered to be the direct outcome of brain activity or "matter en flux."
And I'd answer that what is in my "mind" is an approximation to what exists in the objective universe. This "map of the universe" is a construction, we could say it is algorithmic, and the algorithm is executed in the body (extending beyond the brain to include the entire nervous system).
-
Let me rephrase that and not include "mind" in the question, since this is the sticking point for you. So, is there anything in "objective reality," as you call it, which is not the direct product of the material reductionism that we keep discussing?
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Largo answers:
Does not reductionism insist that you MUST be able to reengineer everything to known, measurable, materialist antecedents. Otherwise, where did said thought come from?
Perhaps, but this is a very old idea and while in principal one might be able to do it, you do not have to actually do it to understand where the thought came from.
As I pointed out in the post above, thermodynamics, statistical mechanics and quantum mechanics all make extremely precise predictions on the outcome of experiments, yet all have a fundamental limitation as tracking every position and velocity and internal state of the objects that make up the systems that are being calculated.
The insistence that there is some "real" state for these objects, and that the objects must be described in a similar way, is nothing more than an aesthetic. Our representation of the essential aspects of these objects, and the "kinetics" and "dynamics" of these essential aspects, are sufficient to provide precise predictions, and thus understanding, of the physical systems. Our model of reality is just that, a model, with the limitations coming from the precision with which we can describe the physical system.
Can something else be "sneaking in" and changing their behavior? perhaps, but we can bound the degree to which this can happen, and in some cases disprove it is happening at all, by analysis and experiment.
So perhaps Largo has some idea of what a "materialistic reductionist" is, but as far as I know, scientists don't buy into the program Largo has laid out above. It is not necessary to predict exact thought to understand how the brain works to produce "mind" and "consciousness." It is a somewhat specious requirement.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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I understand the idea of an underlying consciousness that both is and in a sense isn’t: a kind of paradigm out of which our own self awareness is born and remains a part.
I can even imagine our selves as manifestations of that idea.
But wouldn’t it be a leap of “faith” to claim such a “thing, not thing” is any ”thing” like the individuated consciousness we experience as humans.
And wouldn’t it be an even larger step to assume that consciousness to be God.
The mind/matter stuff is really fascinating, but doesn’t it sidestep the question?
The question of morality and ethics is also pretty fascinating. Do we need a belief in deity as the source of moral rightness? Moses thought so and so did Hammurabi, but isn’t morality simply the child of compassion, the compassion that in a social sense became so important to the thriving nature of human evolution?
It could be argued that all morality and ethical behavior is situational, since human beings as a means of affecting individuals and social institutions created it all.
If God tells you not to be an adulterer isn’t the point not to hurt someone or not to negatively affect the social order?
How is the belief in God necessary for the experience of compassion?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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As I pointed out in the post above, thermodynamics, statistical mechanics and quantum mechanics all make extremely precise predictions on the outcome of experiments, yet all have a fundamental limitation as tracking every position and velocity and internal state of the objects that make up the systems that are being calculated.
The insistence that there is some "real" state for these objects, and that the objects must be described in a similar way, is nothing more than an aesthetic. Our representation of the essential aspects of these objects, and the "kinetics" and "dynamics" of these essential aspects, are sufficient to provide precise predictions, and thus understanding, of the physical systems. Our model of reality is just that, a model, with the limitations coming from the precision with which we can describe the physical system.
Ed,
Feynman's sum-over-paths / path integral formulation is another example of this*, correct?
*Being able to make precise predictions of objects (quons, as Nick Herbert calls them) that we can't really nail down the exact physical nature of. (E.g., what is an electron, really? Sure we know it's properties, but it isn't a hard little ball with a "-" sign on it like most envision.)
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 16, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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Too deep, too deep.
Making head hurt......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:14pm PT
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rrrADAM- "I was once a born again Xian, just as confident as you are now, so you argument that you know somehting I don;t, doesn't hold water." (Jun 3, 2010-6:00pm)
And now you claim there is no God, and more specifically claim that Jesus is not God.
And there lays the dichotomy!
As Fredrick pointed out, you can not loose your salvation. "I will never leave you, nor forsake you!" And may I add..."To know Him, is to love Him." And yet you "deny" His Divinity. Something that He made so clear in the Gospel. He was crucified for claiming to be God. But at one time you believed that He was God...
"You believe that there is one God, you do well, even the demons believe-and tremble!"
Jesus said "You must be born again."
He was speaking of a spiritual birth, by asking God the holy Spirit, into your heart. Jesus said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever."
FOREVER...
rrrADAM- "Judging me...what was it Jesus said about judging?"
Perhaps you were suggesting that I am guilty of this:
"Therefore you are inexcusable O man, whoever you are who judge, for whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same thing." Romans 2:1
That verse is directed towards the person who, for instance, steals from work, and turns around and accuses someone of the same thing without confessing his own sin.
I was warning you of your folly...
You have already judged yourself by claiming there is no God, and more specifically that Jesus Christ is not God. DENYING that Jesus Christ is God. And furthermore, the Holy Spirit who abides in every one who is "born again" Which amounts to BLASPHEMY...the unpardonable sin.
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the sin against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him. either in this age, or in the age to come." Matthew 11:31-32
You are treading on thin ice rrrADAM!
And you call me judgmental for doing so? Some flimsy PC accusation! Because I have warned you of the judgment to come? So be it. Once again, I was warning you of your folly...
"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son."
"Little children; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they have been of us, they would have continued with us..." 1 John 2:18-19
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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Ed, I'm intentionally avoiding getting drawn into trying to answer "questions" that aren't questions, meaning the person who is asking already has the "right" answer in his head, and anything that doesn't conform to that right answer is thereby dismissed. That's why I'm trying to get you to outline the basics in your own language. I'm certainly willing to trey and address this on your own terms.
And by the way, I'm not demanding that you "show" or "prove" the causal links between the evolved brain and consciousness, I'm simply saying that as a material reductionist, you have to believe that the atomic activity in the brain created consciousness, and that a direct causal link exists between the brain and the "emergent" thoughts and so forth. If you're not saying this, then you're left, by the laws of systematic logic, to say that either consciousness is not "created," by antecedent molecular/energetic activity or otherwise, or else consciousness was created by another agency than the brain. There is simply no way out of this conclusion, which logically follows sure as day follow night.
But returning to my earlier probe:
Is there ANYTHING in "objective reality," as you call it, which is NOT the direct product of the material reductionism that we keep discussing? Any function, emergent quality, zero-mass glutonous widget, any vacuume, any quantum field or lieback or handcrack or pear tree?
And no, it is not acceptable to say that we cannot posit "reality" in any absolute way since all that is toggles between energetic and atomic forms, etc. We accept that already. The question concerns that which is beyond or other than the energetic/atomic forms themselves, or their byproducts, perhaps not in an absolute sense, but in any sense.
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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There is simply no way out of this conclusion, whihc logically follows sure as day follow night.
I have no qualms at all about that conclusion - consciousness arising from physcial systems.
The question is concerns that which is not or is beyond the energetic/atomic forms, perhaps not in an absolute sense, but in any sense.
"...beyond the energetic/atomic forms..." - this sort of conjecture always strikes me as selling the material / physical world and miracle of life quite short - insultingly so almost. I find the idea there is some amorphous celestial / interdimensional 'pool' or 'well' of coherent 'thought' or 'consciousness' indistinguishable from 'heaven' or two of the three hindu lokas. It's at best a religious belief arrived at by a different route, but by the same fears and wants.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
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what I would say is that the program is to explain phenomena on the basis of an objective model that is capable of producing quantitative predictions that can be tested by empirical observations (measurements)
My working hypothesis is that the entire universe can be described without resorting to supernatural intervention.
Now that's pretty broad, but it is not a program of proving things are right, but rather demonstrating things are wrong... but precise things.
This program is not incompatible with trying to understand a personal place in existence, but certainly the answer to the important existential questions that seem to arise from an examination of our lives, a product of thought and mind, may not fall within the purview of science.
The fact that our deep emotional response to various social situations may "just be" due to the way we are "wired" doesn't help resolve the issues that are the consequences of those responses. Once again, there is a separation between the symbolic interpretation of those feelings, and the actual physical source of those feelings.
It is not to say that the symbols which represent these abstractions are not a product of the physical universe. An interesting, albeit mathematical, question you could ask is: what generates arithmetic? the fact that 1+1=2, for instance. Could it be that this has to be true, in some anthropic principal argument perhaps, for our universe to exist, that it is a result of the particular physical existence that we inhabit. This is not meant in a mystical way, but emerges from the actual physical properties of the universe.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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rrrADAM- "I was once a born again Xian, just as confident as you are now, so you argument that you know somehting I don;t, doesn't hold water." (Jun 3, 2010-6:00pm)
And now you claim there is no God, and more specifically claim that Jesus is not God.
And there lays the dichotomy!
[snip] The dichotomy lies with you and "your" beliefs... You are the one who has to reconcile it, not me.
I believed, just as confidently as any Xian I know now or knew, and now I don't... It's really that simple. That's a fact, no 'dichotomy' with me. Thing is, it just "CAN'T" be that simple for you, as that would make you wrong... So, there is the dichotomy... It's with you.
As Fredrick pointed out, you can not loose your salvation. "I will never leave you, nor forsake you!" And may I add..."To know Him, is to love Him." And yet you "deny" His Divinity. Something that He made so clear in the Gospel. He was crucified for claiming to be God. But at one time you believed that He was God...
"You believe that there is one God, you do well, even the demons believe-and tremble!"
Jesus said "You must be born again."
He was speaking of a spiritual birth, by asking God the holy Spirit, into your heart. Jesus said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever."
FOREVER... Again... I did all of that, and believed, and really felt his "love", so I thought. I have since seen the light, so to speak. So apparently you are WRONG, as he is not with me in any way shape or form. So, that alone would disprove that one confident belief that you have.
As you said, "I cannot lose my salvation", since I was once "saved", so, if that is true, then how can I be damned for "blasphemy"...
Matthew: Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit... Hey now... Ifr Jesus IS God, then how can we seperate them? (I.e., trash Jesus, but not his Ghost) Another dichotomy for you, eh?
[denying Jesus] Which amounts to BLASPHEMY...the unpardonable sin. So you are saying that Jesus' death pays for all of our sins, except for that one? Another dichotomy for you, I suppose. Especially since Paul did the same, huh? How do you explain that one?
And you still haven't answered what I've asked you.
Do you think my simple questions are unreasonable?
If so, PLEASE copy and paste the question, and explain why you think it is unreasonable. If not, then PLEASE copy and paste them into quotes and answer them.
But since this is the third time you have not done so, I have to assume that all you can do is:
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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No "get out of jail free card" Adam, for all will be judged (what happens then nobody really knows). But, you accept Christ and continue to go against God's word, then you accept the consequences, again, whatever they may be at judgement. So, it would behoove Christians, that means you and me Adam, to store up gifts of heaven while we can.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. - Heb 3:12
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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No "get out of jail free card" Adam, for all will be judged (what happens then nobody really knows). But, you accept Christ and continue to go against God's word, then you accept the consequences, again, whatever they may be at judgement. So, it would behoove Christians, that means you and me Adam, to store up gifts of heaven while we can. Do you even understand what you read ID?
I am an atheist, yet you believe I am a fellow Christian?
Wow, brutha... You really have it bad. I am truely embarrassed for you, since you lack the metacognitive ability to realize that you should be embarrassed.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
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Adam,
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. - Heb 4:6-9 (KJV)
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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Dr. F,
The last I checked the title of this thread is, "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)
I've addressed this question before. If there is no God, then you'll never know for you're dead, worm food. But the question to be concerned about is, "What if there is a God?"
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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If you didn't accept Christ as your Savior then I stand corrected Adam.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
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First, this: "...beyond the energetic/atomic forms..." - this sort of conjecture always strikes me as selling the material / physical world and miracle of life quite short - insultingly so almost. I find the idea there is some amorphous celestial / interdimensional 'pool' or 'well' of coherent 'thought' or 'consciousness' indistinguishable from 'heaven' or two of the three hindu lokas. It's at best a religious belief arrived at by a different route, but by the same fears and wants."
Next, this: "what I would say is that the program is to explain phenomena on the basis of an objective model that is capable of producing quantitative predictions that can be tested by empirical observations (measurements)"
You guys are missing the boat here, and interpreting things in light of your own biases and experiences. The first doosy goes into a rant about what the author assumes, incorrectly, that I am defending. Actually, I was simply asking a question:
Is there ANYTHING in "objective reality," as Ed calls it, which is NOT the direct product of the material reductionism that we keep discussing? Any function, emergent quality, zero-mass glutonous widget, any vacuume, any quantum field or lieback or handcrack or pear tree?
This question does not sell the miracle of life short, or posit some celestial pool of thought or buddha mind or any such hogwash. It makes no judgement or claims about mundane or supernatural "reality." It is not asking about some imaginary, zero-mass Throne of God, with a really cool Dude sitting there spewing paradoxes. If you don NOT believe there ANYTHING in "objective reality" which is NOT the direct product of material reductionism - any function, emergent quality, zero-mass entity, vacuume, space, quantum field or lieback or handcrack or pear tree, then just say: No. It's all energy and matter, it's all forms - period.
Then we can go from there. If you believe objective reality includes something not causally traceable - at least in theory - back to molecular or energetic activity, tell us what that might be, and we'll go from there.
JL
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
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If you didn't accept Christ as your Savior then I stand corrected Adam. I did you dumb-ass! I've said this numerous times, you just can't get it. That I did, was born again, and now I don't believe.
You know, ID... I love to discuss and debate. But you really are incapable of it, in any way, shape, or fasion.
I hate playing this card, but you really and truely are a willful idiot. So I am going to ignore you now.
Have a nice life, brutha...
But you drank too much of this to even taken seriously:
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
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"everything is still beautiful", well, almost, but the cliche', "it's all good" couldn't be the farthest from the truth for it really says:
"28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. - Romans 8:28
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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As ID asks
"What if there is a God?"
I can answer that question,
No God would allow a crazy religion like Christianity to be used as a method of worship of him
He probably doesn't care if you worship him or not
and if he did have a hell, it would be reserved for those who standby a made up religion based on a book of myths written by a bunch of wackos in our early history
A religion that make people stop thinking, and promotes mindless repetition of gibberish and conservatism |
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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Adam,
Peace dude. Why the anger? I'm trying to answer your questions and respond to your statements, that's all.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
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Peace dude. Why the anger? No anger what-so-ever... Just giving up on you.
I'm trying to answer your questions and respond to your statements, that's all. BS... There are pages of replies I have made to you asking you reasonable and direct questions, and you haven't even attempted to answer a single one... I even called pointed this out to you, and all you do is:
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
So, not only are you a willful idiot, but you are a lying one as well.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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Adam,
Earlier I posted that I had noticed that you and others attacked some of the Christians in this thread, including illusiondweller. He's not using strong words, ie; "idiot". As a matter of fact, it appears he's trying to use the Word of God to respond, hence, removing himself from blame.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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He's not using strong words, ie; "idiot"... You gotta admit, he's a "strong idiot"... Morton's Demon is strong in him. Thus it is appropriate, not an "attack". He IS an idiot!
You should google Morton's Demon, BTW, as I'm sure you have no idea what it is.
Oh, and you should also answer the reasonable questions I've asked you...
But you won't either, as all you can do is:
Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
You have no other option when asked reasonable questions that that show the ubsurdity of your beliefs.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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Adam,
Based on this, "I am an atheist, yet you believe I am a fellow Christian?" I questioned you not having accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. You're a Christian Adam, just having backslid.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
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Adam will like this, lol!
ID'IOT, n.[L. idiota; Gr. private,vulgar,unskilled, peculiar, that is, separate, simple. See Idiom.]
1. A natural fool or fool from his birth; a human being in form, but destitute of reason, or the ordinary intellectual powers of man.
A person who has understanding enough to measure a yard of cloth, number twenty correctly, tell the days of the week, etc., is not an idiot in the eye of the law.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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Once again: "And as you have heard; the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us..." 1 John 2:18-19
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
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FOOL, n. [Heb.]
1. One who is destitute of reason, or the common powers of understanding; an idiot. Some persons are born fools, and are called natural fools; others may become fools by some injury done to the brain.
2. In common language, a person who is somewhat deficient in intellect, but not an idiot; or a person who acts absurdly; one who does not exercise his reason; one who pursues a course contrary to the dictates of wisdom.
Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.
3. In scripture, fool is often used for a wicked or depraved person; one who acts contrary to sound wisdom in his moral deportment; one who follows his own inclinations, who prefers trifling and temporary pleasures to the service of God and eternal happiness.
Since we are discussing scripture, I'm going to take #3 for I'm trying to NOT follow my own inclination, and I DO prefer the service of God and eternal happiness.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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See you Brother Adam! I'll say a honest prayer for you that you'll come back to His Word someday. "I'll be back" (said in his best Arnold Schwartzeneger's voice)!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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Another way of considering the consciousness/materialist reduction question is:
Space (or spacetimes) is the arena(s) in which all physical events take place, an event being a point in spacetime specified by its time and place. For example, the motion of the earth orbiting the sun may be described in a particular type of spacetime, or the motion of light around a rotating star may be described in another type of spacetime - at least by Ed or my other hard science friends at CalTec.
Now can space itself, can the arena in which “all physical events take place” be said to be the consequence and rightful product of the physical events themselves? Can we reverse engineer space, following a causal chain leading directly back through time, to a material source? In other words, did matter source space. Or are we going to say that this is, after all a trick question, and that space in not truly empty, but that it is teeming with potential events. But nevertheless said events transpire within a context and a dimension that is other than the events themselves.
What’s more, spacetime is said to be independent of any observer. What does that mean to you in terms of consciousness?
(For you rabid readers, per the above notions, check: Tamás Matolcsi, Spacetime Without Reference Frames. Budapest: Akadémiai Kiadó.)
JL
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:44pm PT
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You're a Christian Adam, just having backslid.
WHAT SAY YOU ADAM
Good thing there isn't a Heaven as I might have to sit next to him... For eternity!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 16, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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rrrADAM!
What I was trying to say earlier is that Jesus promised to send The Helper, I recieved this Helper(God The Holy Spirit)"Who will lead you to all Truth" His Word(Him)is Truth.
You can in no way spiritually discern this without the Holy Spirit revealing this to you. You start out "as a babe" being fed with the "milk" and progress on to the "meat" of the Word through-out life.
I can not describe His spiritual presence, but it is powerful and dynamic..."He will guide you in all things." ...if you allow/ask Him to.
He is the Living Word. Just try meditating on some of His Word(verses).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 16, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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FWIW!!
When I was in college, SDSU(San Diego State University)at the time, one of my professors(Statistics)gave us an IQ test. It was an international/universal analytical reasoning IQ test.
I believe there were about 50-60 questions, each one getting consecutively more difficult. Each question had 4 squares, and each square was divided into 4 sections making a total of 18 squares and each sequential move relied on the prior moves.
So when you got to the two last(17-18)you would have to run all the other moves through your head before you could determine the final move.(probably haven't described this very well, it's been over 25 years).
I remember a girl sneezed on about #32-33 and I was on the last sequence and didn't want to start over so I skipped it. I also knew I had to really lock into it(concentrate)and I eventually finished the whole test. Since it got consequetively harder, i new I could have solved #32 so I just skipped it.
Anyway, I also new I had got them all correct, which I did. And the professor called me back and was all blown away saying that I was in the top 1% of the whatever in the U.S.!
Big deal...what have I gained from it other than countless hours of analyzing this and that.
I have a feeling that this is much of what is going on here...allot of analytical reasoning.
But God made it simple, so simple even a child could understand.
"Verily, verily, I say to you, unless you become like little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
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Largo asks:
Now can space itself, can the arena in which “all physical events take place” be said to be the consequence and rightful product of the physical events themselves? Can we reverse engineer space, following a causal chain leading directly back through time, to a material source?
the answer is, YES, we can understand where space-time comes from through physical properties
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 16, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Verily, verily, I say to you, unless you become like little children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Does this mean that religion is childish, or that only the childish are religious?
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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OT Adam,
Do u still climb, or do you climb? What state are you in? What are the popular climbing areas?
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 06:01pm PT
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A good practical example of 1 Cor 13 Trip...God likes that!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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Ed says: "the answer is, YES, we can understand where space-time comes from through physical properties"
Where does space time come from, Ed. I put the question to my buddies over at CalTec who said:
"Ed's view comes on the heels of GTR, after which people started trying to posit spacetime as a substance, known as substantivalism. This view was
put away by John Earman with his "hole argument." This is not to say that considering spacetime as a substance does not render useful science, but saying spacetime is sourced by physical properties is not credible."
Another question worth asking is: do you see anything existing that is not material or energy?
JL
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
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OT Adam,
Do u still climb, or do you climb? What state are you in? What are the popular climbing areas? Yes, I climb... Have climbed in well over 30 states and Canada... Normally Malibu Creek, Big Bear, Yosemite/Tuoluimne, Tahquitz, and J-Tree, however the Gunks is by far my fave. I still climb, although not as much as before I had kids (4 and 6). Now I live in coastal North Carolina, from Long Beach, Ca, after taking a fulltime job at a nuke out here, as an inspector. Not much climbing close by, so I built a bouldering cave in my house:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2143844#2143844
As shown in the pics, and described in that thread, I have gotten a few locals into climbing (bouldering), and will be taking some up to Rumbling Bald in two weeks with my wife, as I've climbed quite a bit there. Lots of world class climbing in NC, although the closest is 4.5 hours away... Linville Gorge, Looking Glass, Lynn Cove(?). I like Grade III Trad the best... 3rd Pillar of DM being my favorite climb thus far. A little irony, is another one of my faves was a night-time onsite of Illusion Dweller a few summers ago.
Lots-o-Fundies out here, as I am in the Bible Belt... My county school board voted unanimously to have a Baptist Minister teach ID int he high school biology classes, so I got ionvolved with nixing that... Stupid board members didn't even know that that was illegal and been tried before in Kansas and Pennsylvania. I do my best to make a difference in my community, as I judge science fairs representing my utility, helping the kids improve or add detail to their projects if they are moving on to the next level. I evenb help teachers come up with novel ideas to "wow kids into science":
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2126355#2126355
And, as has been mentioned in this thread... I've been clean and sober for over 21 years, and recovery needs help out here, as the person with the most clean time after me has only 6 years, and the fellowship is small. Recovery, mine and that of others, is the most important thing to me.
Lastly... As I also said earlier, I have an almost insatiable(sp?) interest in theoretical and experimental physics, cosmology, reason, and theology... I also like long walks on the beach, I'm a Gemini, my spelling sux, I make lots of typos, and I like RUSH a lot.
Now... I've answered that, as well as every question you've asked my thus far... How 'bout answering and addressing mine? Many of them are made directly to you or things you've said, as I've quoted you and adressed it accordingly.
You won't though, will you? (I... I... D... D...)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 16, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
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rrrADAM!
Awesome, thanks for sharing with us!
You have a great family and are obviously a very caring and loving father. And good job on the home climbing cave and play-set/fort...keep up the good work!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 16, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
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Noting my previous "life could be just like the Dream of God" analogy from before, if everything is made of consciousness, then there's really no "Material" that could be responsible for consciousness.
Isn't the rock in a dream made of consciousness as well. It still doesn't talk to you or move on it's own.
Science will discover the spiritual underpinnings of life in time. There have been plenty of times in the history of science where they have thought "We know a lot" but so much more arrives to be known. When Science hits the shores of the spiritual dimension a bit more solidly, we'll know "We don't know squat"
Religion, however, has it's head in the sand worse. Many religions hang on to teachings meant for virtual stone age culture and mentality, even as they ignore them in practice. We diss on Fundamentalist Islam for rabidly believing and living the letter of their book but the bible is full of the same dealth penalties for moral crimes, and slavery to boot. The fundies just ignore what culture won't accept but still pick and choose moral teachings to condemn Gays while they still eat unclean food and abhor slavery.
You are the laboratory and the experiment. Stop your mind if you're so smart, and see what happens. At least you'll have peace...the one thing that science has precious little information on....
The most important things in life, science is backward on studying. What's with that. How to open your heart to Love, how to get peace of mind. Why aren't those studied with any respect. We have rooms full of guys will millions to make nuclear bombs better, lighter and cluster bombs better too.
The problem isn't our different modalities of thinking..religion or science, but US, our hearts. Untll we fix them, we'll resent religion for judging us or embrace it to belong and feel saved.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 16, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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This thread is dead.
There's no soul (life) in this thread.
This thread is full of robotic and mechanistic drool.
A robotic machine needs a intelligent life force to originally build it and turn it on.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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Now... I've answered that, as well as every question you've asked my thus far... How 'bout answering and addressing mine? Many of them are made directly to you or things you've said, as I've quoted you and adressed it accordingly.
You won't though, will you? (I... I... D... D...)
Didn't think so...
I... I... D... D...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 16, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
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Werner, we cut the heart of it out long ago, hence yes, it's souless by your definition. But despite how hard you clutch your notion of a soul, the authority on which it rests is no less tenuous than any other religion or point of view.
Where does space time come from, Ed?
John, why am I not remotely surprised you were driving at challenging Ed with this fundamental rhetorical gaston? But given we have no real idea what space or time are (or whether they 'exist' as more than mere projections) it may be a bit premature to bother speculating on 'where' they came from. I'm guessing from there we should campus straight into the philosophy of physics as that appears to be what you're more interested in.
do you see anything existing that is not material or energy?
And perhaps skip the chit-chat and jump straight to physical and unphysical perturbation axes and gauge freedoms as I have the sense "unphysical" gets us straight to where you really want to go.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Time will tell...
An insect is being perfectly created now and the scientist wants to wait for some future to see the perfection.
In the future they say we will know.
Instead material nature has been continuously hitting you across the face with a baseball bat and still they say in the future we will find about this bat that's been clobbering us.
No, they can't solve any of these problems by themselves. (Birth, death, disease, and old age).
But !!!!!
They will give you IPOD !!!! and you'll be happy, and then say "In the future we will know" ......
The score between Lakers and Celtics
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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Largo, I'm trying to have a conversation with you, and avoid what you want to avoid, a detailed discussion of the nuts and bolts of this physics...
...I'd be happy to talk to your JPL scientists, but having you as an intermediary is not going to get us anywhere...
Where does space time come from, Ed. I put the question to my buddies over at CalTec who said:
"Ed's view comes on the heels of GTR, after which people started trying to posit spacetime as a substance, known as substantivalism. This view was
put away by John Earman with his "hole argument." This is not to say that considering spacetime as a substance does not render useful science, but saying spacetime is sourced by physical properties is not credible."
my viewpoint is not one of "substantivalism"... but following an idea of Finklestein... on pre-geometry. In particular one where quantum mechanics builds up space time through operator symmetries from very general principals...
perhaps we can exchange emails and talk about this elsewhere... however aren't you being a bit dogmatic here?
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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Seeing this OT tread has gotten 1477 posts I might as well add my (actuality another thinker's) 2 cent worth:
"The fact a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one"
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof"
"Prayer has no place in public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion"
"Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there wouldn't be religious people"
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes"
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him a God?
"Try not to think about God too much. That's how atheists are made"
"He that will not reason is a bigot, he cannot reason is a fool, he that dares not reason is a slave to God"
"Gods don't kill people! People with Gods kill people"
"Religion does three things very well! Divides people, controls people and deludes people"
"Gods are fragile things, they can be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense"
"Religion ensures that from the moment your born millions of people somewhere in the world hate you. With enough passion to wanting you and your entire family dead for not picking the right God or not picking a God at all"
"It's easy to get evil people to do evil things, but it takes religion to get good people to do evil things"
___
It wouldn't be fair not to give the Bible a say back, so here goes.
"Anyone who rejects the verdict of the priest who represents God must be put to death". Leviticus 20:13
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both shall be put to death" Leviticus 20:27
"Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death" Exodus 21:15
"Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death" Leviticus 20:9
"Any women who is not a virgin on her wedding day shall be stoned to death" Exodus 20:6
REMEMBER PEOPLE "THOU SHALL NOT KILL"
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
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Adam,
Let me guess...percussionist as well?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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Phil that was a wonderful post couldn't agree with you more.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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Adam,
Sorry, are you referring to me or illusiondweller inre to the questions you've asked?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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rrradam--have you read pagels or ehrman?
gluton--a quark with an appetite? how charming. recommended: the particle garden by gordon kane. helps sort things out.
jan--have you read any teilhard de chardin? my personal pet process theologian. i'm teilhard, without christianity. the acceleration of the evolution process is indeed breathtaking, but we unfortunately won't be around to see where it eventually leads. point omega? that's his idea, and a rather christian one. maybe i like life and don't think it ought to reach some apocalyptic finale. rather, perhaps there might be a jacob's ladder, a real one, not the kind promised by the j-c-m tradition but not delivered.
we don't have brain tissue, but as you say, we do have the skull imprint, and neanderthal had the bigger brain. dolphins, as i mentioned previously, also have a somewhat bigger brain, with more convolutions. if homo sapiens went to a smaller brain because of internal sophistication, as i speculate, it would only be a small and recent turn in that direction. who knows, we may be headed that way further, but we've also reached the stage of understanding where we may wind up engineering it ourselves before the evolution engine does it for us.
your spiritual experience is interesting, jan. others report similar things. most of you were looking for it, have pursued it through various disciplines, and eventually found something, although you don't seem to be quite sure of what to make of it. i guess what interests me is the evolutionary implications. your experiences would be considered convergent. my observation is that none of them have become ultimate.
i had my own mid-life revelation in the form of an opening to the paranormal, which i have mentioned several times on this thread. i don't think anyone else's experiences are any better, or worse, than mine. what's dismaying here is the lack of collegiality.
healyje--i agree--lots of these folks are selling the natural world short. it's really much better than they give it credit for.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Adam,
Let me guess...percussionist as well?
No... Guitar and piano. I wish I could play the drums.
Can you at least answer this question...
Are you just going to ignore all of my questions and points?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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Adam,
Sorry, are you referring to me or illusiondweller inre to the questions you've asked?
I keep quoting you when I ask, so of course I am asking you too. I have given up on trying to discuss anything with ID as he just continues to I... I... D... D..., as you have done for pages/days here as well concerning my questions and points. I am getting close to giving up on trying to discuss anything with you as well, as you have accumulated a pretty big deficite of unanswered/ignored questions and points... You do NOT in any way appear as if you are going to try to address any of them... In fact, you appear to be willfully ignoring them.
But please note that I have masde many reasonable points and questions regarding your beliefs, so please don't limit yourslef to only the things you are sure I was dirrecting to you. Since you share many of the same core beliefs, you should be able to reasonably address them if you feel that your beliefs are reasonable.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 16, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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rrradam--have you read pagels or ehrman No, but I'll look into them.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 16, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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i did mention them previously, although i wouldn't ask anyone to go hunting back up the line. you mentioned agnostic bible scholars--ehrman is such, although he started out as a rather conservative christian. pagels went in the other direction, from being rather agnostic to seeking religious experience because of some devastating personal tragedies--i think she lost both a husband and a child within a short period, and she found that an emotional black baptist church in new york brought her back to a better place.
between pagels and ehrman, you get a much more realistic look at the development of christianity. pagels wrote the book on the gnostic gospels, and this literature must be taken with the "approved" books to give modern people a balanced idea of what might have been happening back then. ehrman, who took the rigorous, literal interpretation of the bible which so many fundamentalists subscribe to, became disillusioned when he found so much rewriting, augmentation and scrambling taking place, as a literary scholar in the original languages can find. he gave up on it--couldn't see that hand of god in the garble. i think his mistake was in his original premise.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 16, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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I think Largo has confused matter with energy, and he uses E=MC2 as his logical bridge to his illogical premise
Dood, I'm not a scientist. Any use of that kind of stuff is straight from articles either friends from CalTec wrote or stuff they have pointed me towards. I agree with Ed that being their intermediary is a waste of time, though I don't like your chances arguing physics with one of those guys. But it's certainly not my field.
What I'm trying to get worked out here is some appreciation for emptiness, what it is and so forth, but if you're a hard core materialist, even the non-content of a vacuume will be posited as a "thing."
Perhaps one way in is that while a materialist may consider space only in material terms, or being a product of material, are space and matter the selfsame to you. Is the entire universe a form of material to your understanding? What IS the space between particles in an atom,or is the space itself just another material form?
Craig wrote:
So your concept of thoughts being energy, hence matter, is wrong in a macro sense.
Where did you ever get the idea that I said that thoughts being energy, were, hence, matter?
Also, you've flubbed the reverse engineering concept.
It is irrefutable that, according to Material Reductionism, bottom-up causation exists, and that accordingly, the evolved brain produces thought.
So far so good - correct?
In other words, there is an unbroken casual chain of events between the brain and a thought. The causal chain runs from the bottom up - from molecular/chemical activity to energy/thought - at least in theory.
Ergo, the causal chain has to be retraceable, backwards, at least in theory, otherwise you're saying the causal chain is not fluid and the links are not connected, that is, the 10 freeway from Palm Springs leads to LA, but the 10 freeway from LA does NOT lead to Palm Springs, it leads to Phoenix or whatever.
JL
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Okay, speaking of Adam's "irony", ie; night ascent of Illusion Dweller, and a fan of Rush, yet not a "percussionist"...
In junior high school, my brother interested me in percussion instruments where I formally played until just after high school. Having done so, I became an avid fan of Rush as well, for obvious reasons. About that same time, 19 years old, I found rock climbing. About four years later, in 1983, I had the priveledge of following the amazing line of Illusion Dweller after Tomas Einevol of Norway lead it back then when I was 22 years old (see rc.com photo). I decided to use it as a username in 1997.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 17, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Nah, I think I'm pretty tapped out for the time being trying to answer all your questions Adam. Sorry if I didn't live up to your expectations.
But...
"43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Praying for you Adam,
Fredrick
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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I have children as well Adam, two boys, one girl. My oldest son is 25, my daughter is 21 and my youngest boy is 5, I'm 47. I'm a nobody, just dirt, plain ol' dirt, where my body will return when I die. A bit of education but nothing special. I'm an unemployed, stay at home Dad.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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"God Particle" may be Five Distinct Particles No wonder Islamists think that Christianists are polytheists - first it was a three-part deal, now it's five parts.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 17, 2010 - 01:08am PT
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What I'm trying to get worked out here is some appreciation for emptiness, what it is and so forth, but if you're a hard core materialist, even the non-content of a vacuume will be posited as a "thing."
Following this reductionist / causal traceability bent it would seem you might as well just jump right to "who created god?" and "what was before the big bang?". Unless I'm misinterpreting, you seem to be positing or staking out some sort of supervenient or qualian space with your arguments, or are you simply attempting to run down [the limits of] reductionist concepts while presenting no alternative you might ascribe to?
I personally see no particular problem with consciousness arising from a neural network than I do the similar emergence of an autonomic system - both seem well-suited to their respective purposes and equally unlikely in their emergence. Actually, I find plants employing quantum entanglement for photosynthesis even more unlikely, but it turns out they do.
What aspect, attribute, or state of 'emptiness' are we talking about here? Seems to me that in itself is a basic philosophical debate where 'emptiness' is 'empty' or it is a veritable and infinite fount of qualia, god, or what have you depending on your beliefs.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 17, 2010 - 01:23am PT
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Retracing the causal progression of a thought is tantamount to looking behind the vanishing point. An ontological nothingness is perhaps beyond imagining, truly beyond the forms of sensibility.
If that's God so be it, but I doubt he's going to send me a check or cure what ails me.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 17, 2010 - 02:21am PT
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Jan:
I think we may just be going about this backwards. Instead of asking what the properties of consciousness are we should define some property/experience very clearly and ask if anyone thinks that is a part of 'consciousness."
The word consciousness is loaded and never means the same for two different people.
For example I earlier said that a creature trying to survive, knows life can end and what one does in the moment about to come may make a difference. The next moment, a continuation of the present one, has to be constantly on one's mind.
No one agreed this was a part of consciousness so my concept of consciousness has been rejected, popularly.
Interestingly, by my definition, a wild animal trying to avoid a pedator possesses just this consciousness.
This property has great practical value. Probably more value than does our coming to agreement on a philosophical distinction.
Perhaps to put this property more clearly into a human context, from 2001 on I was acutely "conscious" that we all were being stalked by financial predators aided by allies never before in league with them. This "consciousness" proved to be very useful.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 17, 2010 - 02:51am PT
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Agree with Donini, that was an excellent post, PhilG. Worthy of multiple readings as a "remeditative" strategy to counter all the Abrahamic religiosity.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 17, 2010 - 03:03am PT
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No institution expresses "anthropic chauvinism" more than the Abrahamic super-religion.
Can't we do better?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 17, 2010 - 03:04am PT
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Insofar as one is interested in (a) how the world works and (b) how life works (the "what is" of the Cosmos or Nature in terms of facts) and acquires a science education (including a science span and the Scientific Story), he becomes less and less concerned with the Abrahamic narrative (incl. the Fall, Jesus is God, Resurrection, Judgment Day, etc.) as a tool for getting on in the "practice" of living.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 17, 2010 - 03:09am PT
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No institution expresses "anthropic chauvinism" more than the Abrahamic super-religion.
I agree with you. The division of man and 'beast' relative to who possesses a soul (or consciousness) is essential doctrine in that narrative. We should and can do better. Maybe more discussion around where 'consciousness' boards and disembarks Largo's causality train to nowhere can be part of that. I'm obviously of the notion that there is no god-conductor at THE consciousness stop busily ushering sentience on and off that train to and from a celestial queue of 'beings-in-waiting' .
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 17, 2010 - 03:53am PT
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Tony-
I have read Teillard and like you, think that his works are pointing in the right direction but too sectarian.
As for my experience of non-verbal awareness and unity, I went back and edited out all the religious references as they also were too specific and sectarian which the experience was not. Therein lies the dilemma however, with all such experiences. As we try to discover the meaning of them, we end up falling back on someone else’s explanations, including in this case, Darwin’s.
From the evolutionary materialist perspective, the question becomes, did I experience a more advanced form of consciousness that will become more widely known in the future, or was I experiencing some truly archaic form of consciousness? Paul Roehl made an interesting comment a while back that the traits humans have developed in regard to awareness of self and notions of purpose have been survival tools which aided us in the past, but in the absence of threats to survival, become issues that plague us. This would argue in favor of the unitary experience being an archaic form of consciousness.
Given what we are learning from brain scans about the differences in brain structure and activity between people who meditate with quietist methods and those who do not, and people who have many emotional charismatic type experiences, and those who do not, it may well be that part of what keeps us sane in the future, is some kind of engineering that produces those states as a kind of relief from our selfhood and purpose anxieties. An electrical version of LSD? And one that produces measurable neuron connections?
Meanwhile, in regard to the Buddhist explanation of what happened, I blew it. From their perspective I was making real progress in curtailing the ego and I ran the other way as fast as possible. Each ego has its own ways of distracting its subject according to them; mine was the decision to finish publishing all of my original research data before proceeding deeper into the realm of no-thought. I am left of course to ponder how it is that the Tibetan masters I know seem to have excelled at both?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:01am PT
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healeyje-
There's no problem with animals having sentience and souls if you face east. Of course every human value system will have its contradictions. When I lived with the Sherpas, we went to great lengths to save the lives of moths intent on flying into candle flames for example, yet killed millions every time we boiled the water in Kathmandu.
When I asked about this apparent contradiction I was told, "We can't see bacteria, therefore we don't have to worry about them".
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:13am PT
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jstan-
If awareness of the next moment in the survival context is one important function of consciousness, then modern humans on average, living a comfortable and predictable life as they do, must have much less of it. Further, the citizens of the best governed countries will have the least of it? A citizen of Scandinavia will have much less awareness of possible predators than the inhabitant of an American inner city.
We have made some progress in defining different forms of intelligence.I think we could as you say, also make progress in defining different forms of consciousness.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:29am PT
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Jan, it seems you hold a view of a fairly accelerated or punctuated form of evolution, particularly in reference to humans.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:35am PT
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I have CalTec quantum mechanic and chemist friends I DH ride with who are also long time meditators and to the man and women they swear that all of the basics, from the BCS theory of superconductivity, to phase transition, quantum phase transition, critical phenomena, dark matter, gravity, strong force, weak force, glutons and all the rest have almost exact and observable correlates in consciousness and Mind. How could it possibly be different?
I think a comprehensive definition of consciousness would start with the the question of trying to list what is not merely mechanical or "caused" or "produced" by "bottom-up" causality, that which you cannot reverse engineer to atomic generative forces.
Going back further in past posts I missed, I now better see where you're coming from. It still looks a bit hung-up on causality and appears to swing heavily towards qualia, but that's ok.
...they swear that all of the basics, from the BCS theory of superconductivity, to phase transition, quantum phase transition, critical phenomena, dark matter, gravity, strong force, weak force, glutons and all the rest have almost exact and observable correlates in consciousness and Mind.
Taken at face value this seems like a lot of very 'new-agey' projection.
How could it possibly be different?
This especially seems like a real leap of logic and faith. Consciousness mirroring our universe? Wouldn't that be sort of the ultimate in physicalism?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 17, 2010 - 05:01am PT
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Paul wrote: "Retracing the causal progression of a thought is tantamount to looking behind the vanishing point. An ontological nothingness is perhaps beyond imagining, truly beyond the forms of sensibility."
I remain baffled why what seem to be to be very obvious questions and conclusions per material reductionism are assailed here as being tantamount to riddles and hogwash that I am trying to smuggle in here in an effort to introduce a Christian God with zero-mass but all knowing.
Here's the basics, as I see them.
Material reductionism says that all "things" (from effects to stuff to energies to dreams to imaginings about God to tidal waves) are "produced," sourced or issue from atomic or energetic antecedents.
The common usage of "produced" implies a causal chain of interconnected occurances, a sequence. For instance, a factory produces a widget. They start with the raw materials and a mold, and the sequence proceeds from there to the finished product.
If the brain is said to produce thought, then we start with atomic/chemical stirrings, followed by a sequence in which A influences B which influences C and, viola, through this on-going process in real time we end up with thinking.
We might not yet have sufficient understanding of the intricate processes behind thought, insofar that we can specifically chart out the causal chain of those biochemical and electrowhatever happenings, but if thoughts are indeed "produced" but the evolved brain, than the causal chain must be there.
That is, unless someone here is saying and can explain that A) Yes, the evolved brain produces thought, and B) there is no causal chain linking the original atomic activity said to "produce" thinking, and the thinking itself.
If B is true, then by what process does the brain actually "produce" thinking?
Lastly, Healylj said: consciousness' boards and disembarks Largo's causality train to nowhere.
Huh? What's with the "nowhere." The causality train as implied by material reductionism says that you start with the brain and end with a thought. Where does the "nowhere" fit into this causal sequence?
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:46am PT
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paul roehl had an interesting observation there. perhaps it would be better to discuss what thought is, rather than what consciousness is. consciousness implies stasis, thought it really is something dynamic. as he says, you can't get "behind" a thought. thought is dynamic, and it seems to move forward.
the various meditation disciplines and mystical experiences mentioned on this thread seem to achieve a temporary stasis. religions are built around these remarkable experiences, and yet we're eventually dumped back into our human condition. we all know what happens to people who do too much of that. every time we get to the top of an important peak, there's one there, sitting in the lotus position, wearing no clothes, talking to god alone, a thousand years at a swatch.
i think rrradam brought up the subject of singularities earlier, a term used in physical cosmology for things like black holes and the big bang. physics doesn't try to explain what goes on in a singularity.
now think about thought a little. we go from thought to thought, yes, but thought tends to settle on concepts, in its way. is the thought engine itself a small eternity, a kind of singularity?
haha, jstan--conscious of a few predators, are you?
is "healyje" icelandic?
jan--there's an ongoing conference of ucla and ucsb academics focusing on evolutionary psychology--basically how those mental and emotional "cave man tools" have survived into the modern era and how they affect the way we think and act. a great approach, methinks.
largo, a koan for you: do you dishonor nothingness by talking about it?
look out for randisi, a meticulous scholar. his translations on the paul preuss thread are an important look into climbing history, and if anyone can refer him to a publisher, they'd be doing a great service.
but rand, even though the piano is a percussion instrument, it tries so hard not to be.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:26am PT
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Tony Bird wrote
paul roehl had an interesting observation there. perhaps it would be better to discuss what thought is, rather than what consciousness is. consciousness implies stasis, thought it really is something dynamic. as he says, you can't get "behind" a thought. thought is dynamic, and it seems to move forward... .
It's important to note that there is a big difference between consciousness and thought. Consciousness, which I will simply define as "pure awareness" might seem static (the Buddhists have even called it emptiness) but this is an illusion. Consciousness seems static because it is prior to thought and is not divided in ways the mind can direct backwards and perceive. Consciousness becomes thought by taking the form of the images, words, and concepts that make up thought, and this process may be influenced in symbiosis with the brain..the TV tuner of thought.
We identify with our thoughts and assume our identity to be the aggregate of our mental self image but this can be seen through and transcended, saving us from much pain, since clinging to an imaginary idea of self is dicey and insecure. Studies have shown that some long term meditators can retain awareness in deep sleep states and I experience that myself. When this happens, we learn to feel ourselves beyond the mental screen of thinking, reflecting an object of consciousness back to us.
So part of what I'm saying is, the science of thought proves little of the soul. Thought is a tool that used by the soul to run around in these meat earth suits and may not be integral or reflective of an "eternal nature"
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:52am PT
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Yes, Karl has it correct.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 17, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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"The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence.
This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air [prāṇa, apāna, vyāna, samāna and udāna], is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities.
When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."
Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 01:33pm PT
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i don't agree, karl. thinking has many forms. you achieve a profound state which--you think--"transcends" thought, but i think the state itself is part of thought, perhaps an achievement of thought, but thought nonetheless.
thinking is what the mind does naturally. you may want to distinguish between images, ideas and consciousness, but i don't think you can. i don't have much use for the "cogito ergo sum" notion, because lots of things exist without thinking, but it does reflect the essentialness of thinking to the human mind. you may not think profound mental states are "thoughts", but, haha, your memory of such might prove that they are, for in those memories they exist as thoughts.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 17, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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Dr F
Of course you're always right.
You Dr F is always free from from the four defects of a conditioned mundaner.
1) Is sure to commit mistakes,
2) Is invariably illusioned,
3) Has the tendency to cheat others.
4) Is limited by imperfect senses.
With these four imperfections, one cannot deliver perfect information of all-pervading knowledge.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 17, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Excellent post by Paul, Tony, Karl, HF, ED, Dr F. and all of you. I have a lot of work today but here's a thought about something that Tony wrote:
"largo, a koan for you: do you dishonor nothingness by talking about it?"
In a sense he is right. But I've spent my whole life doing and probing things I shouldn't do or what others said couldn't be looked into so here goes anyhow.
I'm first and foremost a person who looks at the psychological aspects of why people do and think and act as they do - I've studied psychology personally and professionally for my whole life. But since I also went to grad school in philosophy, my thinking goes there as well, especially in terms of subject matter. Anyhow, I've been hammering away at this materialist theme for a while here because I know the psychological process that locks people into certain cognitive patterns (the world IS this way) and till you effect a pattern interrupt, you can go nowhere. Much of it has to do with basic assumptions, many of them preverbal or at any rate, unstated in plain and simple terms.
Take the seemingly WAY unrelated case of so-called GAY issues. I weighted into arguments on the matter a bunch of times on this site, not that I have any honest interest in GAY matters - I've done nothing for GAY rights at all - but I was intrigued by the rigid thinking many people had about the whole thing and how threatened they were by sanctioning what gay people pretty much already do anyhow. Who gives a sh#t, right. But the closer I looked, the more I saw people doing most anything to keep the focus off their most basic assumptions. It took me quite a while to realize that for every single rabid anti-gay person, their fundamental position was that an actual gay person did not in fact exist. That is: there simply was no such thing as a gay person. God only made or created straight people. A gay person was not gay by nature, because no such people were ever made. Inherently gay people were not that way by design or true nature, but through biological glitch (the disease model), pathology, depravity, lust, and slaving in the Devil's workshop. You couldn't get anywhere in any discussion with these people because they denied the fundamental existence of the subject itself - the gay person.
My contention is that life and the universe cannot be understood or explained strictly by material means, or by describing and predicting the material world for the simple reason that there are things at play here that are non material and also not "God" or spooks or goblins as they are commonly understood, which is just another attempt to fashion the ungraspable into a form. See how we do this? Our evaluating minds can't grasp "nothing," despite the face that all of us are constantly "Becoming Nothing."
Material reductionism claims all is matter and matter is all. It also has to hold true as an absolute, meaning that a mechanistic view of reality cannot stop being mechanistic, and here, mechanistic can only imply one thing: an unbroken chain of causality by which the activation and interface of material causes, or produces, the content of the universe in real time. The causal chain is linear insofar that we can look back in "time" at radiation and so on and reverse engineer how we got here. Perhaps the most classic example of material reductionism is evolution. If something changed forms along the way, as evolution insists, then there must be evidence of the thing in various forms as it mechanically evolved. No exceptions. Likewise, if thinking is mechanically produced, there won't be a fossil record of a thought that we can peer back over, but there has to be a theoretical chain of causal biochemical and electro events that have a linear progression throughout time and space, otherwise we need to bring in other factors to explain it all.
I've run out of time, but basically, the idea or notion that there are other forces at play besides matter can not even be broached by materialists because for them, even vacuum space must be conceived in terms being material itself. This in indefensible as show in the "density" thought experiment, which is geared to demonstrate the "emptiness" our minds reel from.
Basically, I've avoided putting all of this in philosophical terms because I think that's a cheat played on those who do not understand the language.
Basically we're looking at the argments of "Container Space" and "Relational Space." To cut and past a few notes on this, here goes:
The container theory of space is a metaphysical theory according to which space is a background against which objects rest and move, with the implication that it can continue to exist in the absence of matter. Its opposite is the relational theory. Newton favoured absolute time and space and the container theory, against Leibniz who was a relationist. The subject was famously debated in the Leibniz-Clarke correspondence. At first glance, the physical theory of relativity weighs in favour of relational space, but the general theory of relativity re-introduces some container-like features such as the possibility of completely empty universes.
The relational theory of space is a metaphysical theory according to which space is composed of relations between objects, with the implication that it cannot exist in the absence of matter. Its opposite is the container theory. A relativistic physical theory implies a relational metaphysics, but not the other way round: even if space is composed of nothing but relations between observers and events, it would be conceptually possible for all observers to agree on their measurements, whereas relativity implies they will disagree. Newtonian physics can be cast in relational terms, but Newton insisted on absolute container space. The subject was famously debated in the Leibniz-Clarke correspondence. A relational approach can also be applied to time, with, for instance, the implication that there was no time before the first event.
The Zen metaphysical point of view is that "emptiness is form and form is emptinsss - exactly" That is, relational and container space perspectives are two ways of looking at one reality, so while you can look at all space as matter (materialsist), it is also true that you can experience or look at all matter as space. One is inherently and paradoxically the other - exactly.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 17, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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All material and mundane information is tainted by illusion, error, cheating and imperfection of the senses.
You're all toast ...... :-)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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In a sense he is right. But I've spent my whole life doing and probing things I shouldn't do or what others said couldn't be looked into so here goes anyhow.
Largo,
Uh, oh. You are just millimeters away from 9-11 Truth and knowing UFOs are here on Earth visiting us. Do you really want to keep pushing the boundaries?
Just kidding. ;-))
Sort of.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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Here's another aspect of Spiritual psychology that applies to us in Supertopo a lot and also reflects on a point Largo made:
We identify with our mentally created self-image (we being the soul consciousness) and therefore, when our thoughts are threatened by others as being wrong, it's actually a threat to our existence itself. (Not that we will actually die but if our self-image is negated, it's a kind of death) That's why we engage all kinds of defense mechanisms, including denial, to avoid confronting what would psychologically threaten us if we were really open minded.
Good to look at our emotional investments in our positions along side our intellectual 'Facts' When we start making points as clever arguments while ignoring the actual questions, we can know that we're trying to win, not understand.
Food for ....er...Thought
Peace
Karl
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 17, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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john--
i guess my quarrel would be with your concept of material world. you use that word "material" a lot, and you've got a whole set of notions connected to it. it's a limited thing to you. the things you talk about as outside the material world i see as things which are actually part of it. it's really the world we know, full of a number of things, including your experience of, or idea of, nothingness.
emptiness? nothingness? vacuum? well, physicists speak of something called spacetime and singularities, and the rub is that, even though we can't really imagine these things, they have a certain working success to them. to me, that's where the trail leads.
newtonian physics, powerful as it is, has been up-ante'ed by the moderns, beginning with einstein. from the modern reasoning, we think of our existences as extending from birth to death within the spacetime continuum. the arrow of time points in only one direction. you may be able to slow it down, but you can't turn it around or even stop it--from what we know to date at least. all existence is describable in four coordinate axes: up, down, sideways and future. john long's idea of nothingness can be defined thus in the places and times it occurred in his brain, whatever the subtleties of its condition happened to have been at those times.
there doesn't have to be anything reductionist or "unspiritual" about this. rather i think it's an attempt at being holistic, working all of the fibers of this discussion into something that might start to make sense. be honest, now--isn't that the reason you're here too?
the "thingness" of nothingness--it's alleged existence apart from our thoughts--or should we instead say its nonexistence as we are strive not to think about it?--reminds me a little of parmenides's idea of truth: it has an existence of its own, apart from what people may suppose it to be. that, we'll agree, will hold up as long as we deal with lesser, provable truths. for the grander ones--who can say whether parmenides was right or not? but it may be where the trail leads.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 17, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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I enjoy reading people's views hear and I think the variety of what people believe makes life and these converstations a lot more interesting. And with the motley crew we have hear we get some very different ideas, that's for sure.
I do have a lot more respect for those that have the courage to admit they don't know it all. Even if you were convinced you knew it all and the ultimate truth how can you fully trust what your brain is telling you? What if, at a worse case scenario, you are crazy, or more likely you are just deluding yourself. But then again I know some people's viewpoints must be based on their assumptions and beliefs as being rock solid truth so I can't really fault them for that.
I really like to hear other peoples views, but I do get defensive when they are harsh on other people for not believing what they believe, or when they try to force others to live or think a certain way. A big part of why Europeans came to America was for this freedom of thought and I think that freedom is a more solid, defineable and defensible concept than any specific belief as to how we got here or what's behind it all. We won't agree on what's behind the curtain, but most of us would agree we should all be free to decide for ourselves what it is or may be.
Is there something beyond/behind the energy/material world? If there is wouldn't it by defintion be unobservable? So then does it even matter in our lives? It's interesting to think about but I gave up devoting too much time or energy into it long ago because there are so many other things in my life that make a real difference in my day to day experience and happiness that I'd rather focus on.
I asked someone long ago (perhaps a science teacher) was the universe expanding into empty space? And their reply was no, the expanding universe is creating space. The was nothing before the expanding universe created space. The vaccum of space is still something, it is not nothing. There is little or no material or energy in space, but it is something, without energy or matter to define space there would be no space, there would be nothing. So space exists, but it is not composed of matter or energy, but matter or energy is needed to define and create it.
After learning a bit about relativity and gravity I came to have some understanding that spacetime is not Newton's rigid backdrop for everything, spacetime is created by energy and matter. And I have an inkling of why the speed of light is a constant and why it is so important to so many processes and reality. I don't think a conscious observer is needed to create reality or spacetime, but I do believe energy and matter are needed to define and create spacetime. Another big clue for me is gravity. It is not a force between two bodies like magnetism, it is the bending of spacetime. The Earth is compressing spacetime so the space we around us is compressed toward the Earth. Matter changing the struture of spacetime really shows my how energy, time, and matter are all related.
One interesting viewpoint I've heard (and I like) is that we are here and things are the way they are simply because this is the enviroment that makes us possible. That is, there may be infinite or billions of ways for the universe to exist, there may be billions of universes, there are billions of galaxies, each with billions of planets, and there have been billions of years since the start of our universe, all leading to a planet where life is possible, then complex life, and finally all the circumstances that led to a creature as intelligent and self aware as a human being. So we could be here in that scenario as the result of being extremely lucky (all the circumstances that needed to happen to produce us just happened to come together), or that we were inevitible (with all those billions of chances, eventually there would be an environment that created us). But I still come back to does it matter why? Is there even a why? I do feel extremely lucky to be here and have the life that I have. I see such incredible beauty and love in so much of what surrounds me I don't really need any supernatural explanations for it. It's freakin' awesome just because it is, I can see and feel that by just experiencing it, and it doesn't need to be anything else or more for me, I don't know how it could be.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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Nah, I think I'm pretty tapped out for the time being trying to answer all your questions Adam. "...all of my questions"? You have answered any of them... Not one.
Sorry if I didn't live up to your expectations. Oh... But you have lived up to my expectations dude...
I've said, more than once, that all you and your fellow RNJs can do is 'I... I... D... D...'
Haven't you been paying attention?
I did "expect it", enough to "predict it" (in writing), and you "confirmed it", numerous times... You've posted plenty, but never one addressing anything I've said, so every post from you to me serves to confirm EXACTLT what I'm saying: "I... I... D... D..."
But I do understand... You really have no other choice, as you CANNOT address them, since even attempting to do so would force you to confront the fact that your beliefs are unreasonable... And you can't have that.
You are forced to "I... I... D... D..." in order to maintain your belefs. You MUST keep them seperate from your analytical rational mind... You would apply more skepticism when buying a used car, but not with your belief that believing a 2,000 year old myth about a virgin born man who was killed and come back to life will win you eternity in Heaven... DISCONNECT!
It's how delusions are maintained.
But don;t worry... You are not alone, as others in this thread are forced to 'I... I... D... D...' right along with you. I guess delusions are best when done in groups, as they can even help to reinforce eachothers' beliefs. (I.e., cosign eachothers' bvllsh|t)
As I suggested to someone else days ago...
You should at least ask yourself (no need to post an answer):
"Why is it that I have no reasonable answer for the simple questions and points he is making?"
Do it brutha... Ask yourself that. The truth will set you free.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
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Check it out.
I reckon I may STILL achieve enlightenment. Soul free.
Dig & groove & move on, bro.
Arguing is for lesser beings, maaaan.
You NEVER win an arguement with your Ol' Lady, right?
THAT should teach you something.
Word.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 17, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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You know, one day Richard Feyman told his class (paraphrasing):
"You know what? The most amazing thing happened to me today... Today while driving here, the plate on the car in front of me read 2ASB368. Of all the cars I could have gotten behind, I got behind THAT ONE! Wow! Isn't that remarkable?"
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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Your only free in Christ not apart from Him!
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qigongclimber
climber
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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The belief in God is literally a virus of the mind. The technical term for this virus is 'meme'. Memes explain why someone would continue to believe in the equivalent of santa claus, the tooth fairy, and/or the easter bunny into adulthood. For more information on this, read 'Virus of the Mind' by Richard Brodie. As to why an otherwise intelligent adult afflicted by these mildly psychotic beliefs cannot change their beliefs in the face of fact, logic, and reason, read 'The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs - Fundamentalism and the Fear of Truth' to see the sociological inertia to awareness of reality.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 17, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Relax, Dr, F.
Enlightenness(?) or 'ment, if you will, doesn't require a soul or Eternity.
It's right now. Cockroaches can join in, if they want to.
It's not a battle. Shhhh.
It's not a fight at all. Or at least, I think so.
Just words, skully
PS. Thanks for your efforts to find out what IS. They are appreciated.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 18, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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Just upthread, Dr. F mentioned Nuristan, which I believe means "The Country of Light". Anyway, Nuristan is in east central Afghanistan, and is the main scene for Eric Newby's excellent "A Short Walk in the Hindu Kush", written about his trek and climb there in 1956. A very funny book.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 18, 2010 - 04:47am PT
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Belief in God is based on faith.
Arthur C. Clarke on faith: "Faith is the ability to believe the unbelievable."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2010 - 05:46am PT
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Dr. F wrote
Is the mystical state of enlightenment or "all knowing' or "in touch with the nothingness" nothing more than another unknowable "God Like Nothinglikethingof nothingness"
or in other words, another myth
Basically, you are just speculating with no experience, like a tourist at the base of El Cap figuring that nobody could ever climb that rock, when, in fact, there are a dozen parties on the face.
Visiting "enlightened one" in India and other places in the world, I have hard time explaining that you can feel the energy of these guys coming with your eyes closed, before you know who is around the corner. I could tell a million stories (and have told some on other threads) but folks who are determined to assert that it's all fairy tales would just go into denial or consider me nuts so I know better. That and you'll certainly be just fine with your unbelief. I don't think God needs you to believe anything. Life itself will teach you the lessons that evolve your spirit. Reincarnation is like coming back from summer vacation to the next grade in school.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 18, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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The anti-mechanists should just own up (to themselves) what they can't stand: if nature's 100 per cent mechanistic, then freedom doesn't exist, at best it's only an illusion.
But I should add of course, that this is where they trip up, badly, because even in a mechanistic universe, freedom exists.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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dr. F & fructose: we've all been on this thread awhile and know each other's schticks.
on that other thread, fruct flatters me by saying he'd be with me with just about everything if i weren't also talking about the paranormal.
and here, dr. F says, "if someone could say something that no ones knows, knowledge from the other side ... then I would be convinced.
to fruct: maybe you ought to rethink paranormal a little--just a suggestion. don't have information bias. yes, you certainly have to sort it out, but that's true of anything.
dr. F: i've been saying it, and i'm not the only one. there is stuff there about "the other side". maybe you just don't want to look at it.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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even in a mechanistic universe, freedom exists.
Yes but it's limited.
Real freedom is liberation from all miseries arising from material contact namely birth, death, disease and old age.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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That's what you would like to think ......
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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that explains it, dr. F. the skeptics society is full of closed minds. were they merely skeptical, it would be a saving grace. i've been to a number of their programs held at caltech, usually rather interesting speakers, but the society itself conforms to a rigorously narrow credo of reductionist belief. nothing personal towards yourself, please.
as i said, i don't see heaven in my peeks at the other side. it has more to do with largo's stillborn brother. but it's real because the data comes as information. a psychic would have no way of knowing about my origins back in the midwest, unless, of course, there's a big computer file kept on everyone and someone was feeding it to her via a tiny speaker planted in her eardrum, which, i hate to admit, is another possibility--she did seem to be picking it out of the air.
werner is starting to sound a lot like a buddhist.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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there's another society, the center for inquiry, only slightly less rigorous about these things than the skeptics. they have a meeting center in east hollywood, and i go to their programs occasionally as well.
the center for inquiry has a little museum featuring some of the correspondence of arthur conan doyle on the subject of contact with the deceased. it doesn't seem to take sides, just a curiosity, i guess. conan doyle had experiences analogous to mine. i believe he lost a wife or a son or maybe both and was quite distraught, seeking contact through psychics, which was a somewhat more respectable thing in his time. he found some contact--again, through information which the psychic apparently had no way of knowing otherwise--and it seemed to lay his grief to rest. a pretty logical fellow, conan doyle.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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Spirit, it's good to know other people think about things like I do. Based on reason and accepting there are things we don't yet or may never know. Don't worry about the word it's just nomenclature.
I have gotten over my hang ups on using the terms god and sprituality. I don't see god as meaning some omnipotent humanoid anymore. After learning Einstein's concept of god that became my definition. And I now think of spiritualty like the force in star wars. Except it's not just in living things it's everything; all matter and energy came from the same place and it's all related. Maybe some people have tapped into it. I'm a skeptic and haven seen anything to convince me humans have much ability to affect changes in the energy/matter without some type of physical manipulation but I leave the door open for that possibilty. If there was any proof like video of someone who could do that we'd see it. That would be such an important news story, we'd know about it. But maybe they have some reason for hiding it.
Back to the original question/troll: I think nature/evolution produces a lot of variability in our personalities (even among kids from the same parents). And this helps us survive because we need different people to fill different roles. We need the risk takers and we need the play it safe people because at some point one or the other may have been needed for the tribe to survive. We also need leaders and followers. And it seems nature would produce more followers than leaders or we'd all be doing our own thing which is not good fo the tribe. Since more people are followers they will look for a guide. And that may be a big part of why so many people believe in god.
Edit to add: And it's a good thing different belief systems exist for different personalities. What works for me won't neccesarily work for someone else. They may need or want that firm hand of guidance, while to me it would be oppresive. So I try not to judge people for their beliefs that I may find strange because it works for them.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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fet--not all tribes have chiefs. the navajo didn't, until white man insisted that they do.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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Yes Tony, but when there was a decision to be made certain individuals would be more likely to offer their opinions and be more forceful about convincing the tribe to go in that direction.
I have a lot of respect for the spirituality ideas of native Americans. To me it seems a much more reason based view of spirituality, keeping us inclusive with nature, rather than exclusive of it. When I kill something like a black widow spider I aplogize to the spider, and it makes me feel better about having to do it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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The thing is
whether you believe in God or not, your life experience is subject to the quality and nature of our mind. If your mind is jacked, somebody could hand you a million bucks and you could have the most desirable woman there is, and the money wouldn't move you, and you'd get sick of her in no time.
So, spiritual goal or not, it's worth considering your priorities and actions, doing some study on "Self Help" in its various forms and do a bit of work in the direction of knowing yourself, your mind and emotions. That's the thing that directly pays off in life, while other pursuits can contribute in a more secondary way. It's certainly possible to approach climbing in a way that focuses the mind and looks at our psyche, but you have to be mindful to do it.
Until you have a handle on your mind, you are a slave of your childhood, your circumstances, and your emotional distortions and we all have em. Repression and denial just divides and contracts you, makes you numb.
Still, this is a fairly basic and self-evident fact, that our experience is totally filtered by our mental state, and yet as society, or as individuals, we rarely take action on this most basic element of our existence. It's not taught in schools. Not much money goes into it's study.
Why not? We're all running around striving to be happy. It's like priority number one but science barely studies it. Religion touches it but has tons of baggage and detritus from history.
We're fools. We deny our deepest needs. We don't attend to our highest welfare. We live blindly
Peace
Karl
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Karl, you have a good point. For something so important we don't give it enough attention or maybe many people do but not in the most constructive ways. Also you can make big changes in you outlook and happiness but I think a great deal of it is inherent in our personalities and also influenced by our upbrining and environment. My young son bounced off the walls in the womb and is still that way to this day. Before he was even born his personality was in place. Change is possible but you always have that starting point which may be the biggest factor.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
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fet--joseph campbell contrasts two approaches to killing, from two closely related tribes.
the bushmen of the kalahari, terrific hunters in their difficult desert environment, pray to the soul of their intended victim, apologizing for the upcoming kill, explaining how they have a family to support, enumerating their dependents.
the pygmy tribe of the congo jungle exhibits an apparent crass cruelty, mimicking the death throes of their prey, making great lighthearted sport of it. he notes that they live in an abundant environment. perhaps it's a way of dealing with the same twinge of heart.
hey--i'm a carpenter and i have the same scrupes about trees. you can check out my way of dealing with all the guilt on the great tree thread.
karl, i probably agree with you, but i think most self-help books are written by fools for an audience of same.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 18, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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I’m reminded here of William James notion of the “spiritual or mystical experience.” He felt these experiences had two primary elements: ineffability and noesis.
Ineffability “leads the believer to feel that his life is continuous… with a wider self from which saving experiences flow in.”
Noesis is the “knowing” of such an experience. “…questioning the validity of these experiences is futile, for believers have had their vision and they KNOW – that is enough – that we inhabit a spiritual environment from which help comes, our soul being mysteriously one with a larger soul whose instruments we are.”
So the question is really an epistemological one. How do we know?
Those that haven’t had the experience simply can’t know in the way those who have had the experience know.
So I would ask the question how is it that some are made privy to such an experience while others are left out?
Do we automatically assume the inferiority of those not having a spiritual experience?
…and isn’t the lack of spiritual experience also a valid noesis, isn’t it every bit as valid as the spiritual experience?
Also, isn't unrepeatable personal experience as knowledge a kind of narcissism?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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karl, i probably agree with you, but i think most self-help books are written by fools for an audience of same.
That's something of a blanket statement which may be true in cases. If so, it only makes the non-fools more foolish for not paying attention to the basic study of fullfillment and wholeness in life.
Fet- it's true that we bring stuff into the world and childhood molds us in basic ways that are deeply ingrained. It's still possible to work on this deep stuff and at least embody the healthiest undistorted version of ourselves, whether we're introverted, hyper, or whatever, but we're creatures of habit so change doesn't come easy, particularly when we don't consciously seek and study it.
Most people's lessons in life come from neither science or religion, but from crashing their car, the breakup of their relationships, or others stresses. Pain makes man think. It can swing both ways, instead of learning our lessons, we can shut down and go numb... dead. Best to address things/life upfront like a bold lead cause we're on the stone for life. No amount of science nor atheism is going to free you from yourself and religion can help-hinder-blind as well.
Like Jesus said, the way is narrow...there are plenty of distractions for religious and agnostic alike.. but life is in your face.. How you going to deal with that?
Peace
Karl
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 18, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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A while back there was a nod to Rush, and Neil Peart certainly has influenced my thinking. I think it's pretty cool for rock and roll lyrics to touch on philosphy, but then again there's a reason there's more nerds than hot chicks into Rush.
FREEWILL
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.
A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
"The stars aren't aligned,
Or the gods are malign..."
Blame is better to give than receive.
Chorus
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill.
There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them; they weren't born in Lotusland.
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.
Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 18, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Dr. F wrote: "did zen meditation for years, I know what these transcendental states are like."
I have no idea who your teachers were, but they didn't know a thing about Zen if they were encouraging you to nurture or even pay attention to "transcendental states." This sounds like the stuff you encounter with classical eye-closed meditation.
JL
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 18, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
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FWIW!
One third of the angels fell with Satan, they are not all knowing(omniscient)but they know about the past because they were there!
This is who SOME of the so called fortune tellers, psychics, etc. are communicating with! They cannot foretell the future, but they do know something about the past...as in from one second ago!!
They have NO benevolence for the human race WHATSOEVER, so...BEWARE!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 18, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
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Largo, in my reference to a "causality train to nowhere" I'm simply making an oblique reference to your rather strenous push to get to a discussion about 'emptiness' and 'nothingness', i.e. "nowhere" - "a causality train to emptiness" doesn't have much ring. Not having either background, I'm guessing being way into labeling and formally structuring the language or vehicle of thought must be what psych and philosophy folk do. And I suppose the retort would be without such formal and rigid [logical] structuring you simply can't have a reasonable discussion or exploration, but I guess I'd disagree to a certain extent.
From my perspective I agree one certainly needs to 'formalize' and structure explorations which drive to the edge of human knowledge and beyond, but at a some point as you approach or cross the boundary of the 'unknown' then it strikes me that strong adherence to any one formal approach is just as likely to run you out of gas as it is to get you anywhere. At some point you're just running a thought and logic exercise that has more use in organizing what you don't know than pushing the boundary of what we do know.
So to some extent it seems to me that driving the argument of "material reductionism" into the dirt is just another form of containerism, i.e. I'm only going to look at 'thought' or 'consciousness' from this one [logical] container's perspective. Again, I'm guessing this form of logical containerism must be what philosophers do, but never having taken a philosophy course I couldn't say. For myself I don't really consider your conjoining of 'materialism' and 'weak substantivalism' (in the way you present the coupling between them) to be all that particularly valid or, to some extent (and possibly ironically) to be just a matter of [relative] perspective. The container or weak substantivalism 'view', where a universe can exist with nothing (no material) in it and material objects are regions of spacetime, doesn't at all seem exlusive of, or in opposition to, 'materialism'. I think it's just a different way of defining 'material' - similar to a view everything is made up of a collection of vibrating strings which are themselves just rolled-up dimensions.
Seems to me that just because you or I can't fathom follow a [causality] trail from a thought back to some specific state of atomic particles doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that we can't figure it out at the moment and possibly never will.
For me what makes religion so objectionable is it is based on a relentless fear of unanswered or unanswerable questions - that there is nothing more frightening then an unanswered question. Religion is all about making up answers to quell, calm, and harness a very real human fear of the unknown. I guess I find it a bit disturbing when folks who claim to operate on science or reason start doing the same; when they start 'making sh#t up' to fill the voids represented by the unknown. For me, the fact that I can't necessarily connect the dots between a thought and an the chemical / atomic state of an arbitrary set of neurons doesn't make me feel the need to suddenly start 'inventing' non-material protagonists to help me make that leap simply to smooth over a logical bump in my road to understanding.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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good stuff again, paul. "some are privy while others are left out". it is what it is--evolution works that way. we're sitting here trying to philosophize about a lot of varied experience and find a common thread. some can seek such experiences and find them, others come up with nil, others find something they didn't seek, as i did.
tripl, don't worry about me. i know how to handle the suckers. i've learned where the big bad wolf is, and he isn't in hell by a long shot. if you want to accelerate your learning process, enroll in the school of hard knocks, as karl mentions.
and, karl: we're all god's fools, said the man for all seasons.
fet: i never met a rock lyric i liked. the deeper they try to get, the quicker they lose me. i think the deepest poets don't set out to be deep. it surprises them.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 18, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
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"enroll in the school of hard knocks, as karl mentions."
I have lived the school of hard knocks, believe me!
And I prefer the Way that Jesus "mentions!"..."straight and narrow."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 18, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
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Just so long as you know that the "Narrow" Jesus mentions isn't "Narrow Minded"
Nobody gets there through dogma or closed mindedness. (not saying you are but some think that way) The guy who made the universe doesn't value blind faith and taking other's word for things above all other moral qualities.
For me, I think Narrow means that the source of ourselves within our own being-awareness as we are created of it's essence (in it's 'image') yet we look outward or upward for God. There are many view and paths there but they are external, conditioned, and ultimately not the real. Our essence is real and connected with Spirit. This can be experienced by anyone and indeed, everyone experiences it all the time as their witnessing consciousness itself. It's just distorted and covered up by all our thinking and crap
Peace
Karl
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
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yikes, largo--healyje's all over your case!
here's one i came across just this afternoon, tripl--i'm going up to arcata next month and was doing a little research on the area:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_Wiyot_Massacre
the big bad wolf pounced on these folks in the dead of night in the form of intolerant christians out to stamp out pagans. look out, buddy, he could get you too, and he just might be wearing a great big jesus mask, as i'm sure these guys did.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 18, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
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Matthew 12:12-14:
"Therefore whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7:12
"Enter through the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it." Matthew 7:13
He is talking about the wide/broad gate that leads to Hell(destruction)!!
"Because narrow is the gate, and difficult is the way that leads to life." Matthew 7:14
He is the "narrow" gate that leads to life(eternal life/heaven).
We are all guilty, over and over again of breaking the law because Jesus states that if we have ever even got angry at another person we are guilty of murder. If we even just lust after a women/man we are guilty of rape!!
"All have sinned and fall short..."
Only He can fulfill the requirement, forgive us and lead us...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 18, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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T Bird- "Big bad wolf...in the form of intolerant christians..."
I read your link and it said that they were "gold miners"???
Said nothing in regards to "christians"!
You are jumping to conclusions...what did karl say about being "narrow minded"?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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that straight and narrow mind
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jstan
climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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"For me what makes religion so objectionable is it is based on a relentless fear of unanswered or unanswerable questions - that there is nothing more frightening then an unanswered question. Religion is all about making up answers to quell, calm, and harness a very real human fear of the unknown. I guess I find it a bit disturbing when folks who claim to operate on science or reason start doing the same; when they start 'making sh#t up' to fill the voids represented by the unknown. For me, the fact that I can't necessarily connect the dots between a thought and an the chemical / atomic state of an arbitrary set of neurons doesn't make me feel the need to suddenly start 'inventing' non-material protagonists to help me make that leap simply to smooth over a logical bump in my road to understanding."
Extremely well said Joe.
Along these lines another possibility has occurred to me associated with our almost primal enjoyment of music. Music is really satisfying because, with a good tune, you know beforehand what the next note will be and exactly when it will come. The enjoyment includes a sense of security that arises when your prediction comes true, exactly. I wonder if bible readings from passages one has read regularly every so often for the past forty years are not just this same search for confidence and seeming omniscience. All the words are right there in the same place they were the last time you read it.
If true, the interesting thing about this is, the whole thing is subliminal.
Unconscious.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 18, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Healyje:
"For me, the fact that I can't necessarily connect the dots between a thought and an the chemical/atomic state of an arbitrary set of neurons doesn't make me feel the need to suddenly start 'inventing' non-material protagonists to help me make that leap simply to smooth over a logical bump in my road to understanding."
Is that what you were thinking I was driving towards: "Inventing non-material protagonists to help me make that leap simply to smooth over a logical bump in my road to understanding."
I actually agree with much of what you said, especially the challenge to bore into the unknown. That's what eye's open mediation is all about - moving past symbols and linguistic formulations - and is probably why I always liked doing first ascents.
The efforts to drive this discussion into "the cloud of unknowing," or nothingness was a bust because there are species of materialist so hard core that to them, there is no space between atoms or thoughts, no emptiness, no context or background. All is stuff, or sourced by stuff, and stuff sourced by stuff is simply latent stuff. The map is the territory, and there is no open terrain on the map. None.
That, by any definition, is a dead end per any exploration beyond or other than, stuff. I even asked the trick question: Is it possible for you to imagine a dimension, context, or empty, borderless container or (fill in the blank)that was not material, and some were not even willing to try and imagine it, even as a thought experiment. So hey, have fun with all that stuff.
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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still haven't figured out if healyje's a viking. could be ...
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Seriously, Man, I didn't know she was Your sister.
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Jun 18, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
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Viking is a Verb.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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to spell it out for you tripl, these people were massacred on their sacred island, preparing for a "pagan" ritual. they weren't being kicked off a gold claim. the same thing happened on a sacred island in clear lake, california, a little further south. there it was the u.s. army doing god's dirty work, and both massacres were done when the braves were away and they could decimate women, children and geezers. i don't have any particular ax to grind about this. i'm sure the indians were killing whites as well, it always happens. history is full of war, and this is really just another example of same. but your loving jesus puts you out to lunch on the whole process. jesus, unfortunately, has another side.
these killers were having what today is sometimes called a problem with their human rights record. there was polite but guarded debate about the atrocities, just as there always is today. christian churches are good at saying "naughty-naughty" about such things--up to a point. in the case of those who don't convert real well, it's often best just to genocide as many away as possible. catherine de medici did the same to the french huguenots.
when you get christians backed into a corner with such sodden hypocrisies, they like to fall back on sweet jesus's promise to bring a sword and set brother against brother and the "render unto caeser," which translates to "none of our business". your comfortable little belief system in the pie slice of the world that thinks christianity is the only important one stands squarely on the shoulders of god's dirty work.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
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Wow!
Were it not for the fatal flaw in religion, words this good could have an effect and believers would begin to question what they were doing.
But as it is practiced, believers do not believe they have the freedom to question and criticize themselves.
If this were not true churches could be dynamic and improving entities.
As it is, growth in numbers is the only metric.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 18, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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Trip7 says that Jesus said that if anyone eve gets angry with anyone else, they are guilty of MURDER!
Also, trip7 says that Jesus said that if anyone lusts after a woman, well then they are guilty of RAPE.
WHERE EXACTLY, Trip7, did Jesus say the above, WHEN and WHERE did HE say them.
Not some dipshit ignorant make it up believer centuries after Jesus died, but Jesus himself.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 18, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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Norton- "exactly when and where..."
Mathew 5:28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a women to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
But I say to that whoever is angry with his brother without anycause will be in danger of judgment...Whoever says you fool, shall be in danger of hell." Matthew 5:22
These were all preceded by Matthew 5:21
"You have heard that it was told to those of old 'You shall not murder" Mathew 5:21
And...
"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer..." 1 John 3:15
Etc....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 18, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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Largo:
Is that what you were thinking I was driving towards...
Not necessarily, I've just been trying to figure out exactly where you've been going.
...and is probably why I always liked doing first ascents.
Same here. Pretty much the only reason I climb is the chance to occasionally wander into a state where I have no idea of what's going on and have to operate in the moment and on intuition (also the reason I so dislike chalk and the climb-by-the-dots mentality if inevitably leaves in its wake).
The efforts to drive this discussion into "the cloud of unknowing," or nothingness was a bust because there are species of materialist so hard core that to them, there is no space between atoms or thoughts, no emptiness, no context or background. All is stuff, or sourced by stuff, and stuff sourced by stuff is simply latent stuff. The map is the territory, and there is no open terrain on the map. None.
That, by any definition, is a dead end per any exploration beyond or other than, stuff. I even asked the trick question: Is it possible for you to imagine a dimension, context, or empty, borderless container or (fill in the blank)that was not material, and some were not even willing to try and imagine it, even as a thought experiment. So hey, have fun with all that stuff.
Hmmmn. I guess my [very limited] perception in such matters is that on one hand you seem to be defining this rigid ruleset which by design is meant first and foremost to establish a seeming 'paradox' from which to leap into a 'third rail' discussion around the dilemma it poses. Ok, I get that, but I'm not sure that I buy the paradox beyond its utility as a thought experiment. As for your "trick question", I guess in the end it seems to me to be a case where the conjecture or 'departure' you're asking us to make is one designed to force us into attempting to conceive of non-material / metaphysical protagonists to bridge the gap created by the way the question is arrived at or structured. I'm ok with that as an experiment I guess, but as a 'real' answer to the unanswered question of how a thought arises from the material world I am completely at ease with simply not knowing.
I do empathize with your interest in exploring that gap, but I guess I'm left grappling with how one might go about that without leaping straight into the qualian or metaphysical end of the pool. Again, I'm ok with doing that for 'fun', but I personally prefer "WTF, I have no idea" as my personal answer to the underlying dilemma. Then again, as a mutt of an US / Irish dual national I am forced to cop to a certain intellectual laziness when it comes to such matters - probably a result of not enough Viking blood to tough it out when the going gets rough.
P.S. I'm in Manhattan Beach for my Dad's 90th this weekend and just returned from getting my ass handed to me attempting to surf out in front of the rental place. Surfing is not climbing. I've never had a rock attempt to leap down upon me after falling. In fact, I'm used to relaxing after falling, not having to all of sudden get real busy. Wish I did have more Viking in me as maybe then I would be getting punked so badly.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 18, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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So Trip7,
Jesus did NOT say those things.
Mathew claimed that Jesus said those things.
So, when I lust after my WIFE, I am guilty of RAPE.
And when I got ANGRY last week when I saw a woman beat her dog just for the "fun" of hearing it scream in agony, then I am guilty of MURDER.
Just so I got this right, according to MATTHEW I am guilty of RAPE and MURDER?
Do I have this right?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 18, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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Any son of a bitch god that tells me I am guilty of RAPE and MRDER can kiss my white ass.
And anyone who believes that cruel and ignorant logic is as stupid and childish as their god of the moment.
Fuking moron to say and believe that crap about me, me a murderer and rapist.
Kiss my pagan white ass.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 18, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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Norton!
Jesus said guilty of adultery, not RAPE.
So I stand corrected!
But if you where to, let's say, undress a women with your eyes, MIND, and have sexual relations with her in your MIND/HEART...you are guilty dood!
He is the one who said these things, ask Him when you get the opportunity...and you will(meet Him)!
Obviously, you can not be guilty of adultery against your own wife!
What Jesus was saying is that SIN starts in your heart...
EDIT: So much ANGER dude...
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jstan
climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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777:
Norton is angry with good cause.
You are telling Norton what he can and cannot do.
That is none of your business.
Get out of his business.
Now.
If you have things you want to say, make arguments showing it is better if everyone does things certain ways. I don't rant on bolts saying Bill should not have put a bolt here. I say here is what we give up when any of us resorts to that technology.
What you did is pretty standard stuff.
You did it without thinking.
Start thinking for yourself.
It has been wrong for centuries.
It is still wrong.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 18, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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jstan!
I simply quoted the Bible!
Norton took offense!
I could care less what Norton, you or anyone else does!
So much ANGER...
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jstan
climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
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777:
You are quoting some old text about murder and rape to us because that is what you do without thinking.
What gives you the right?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 18, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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"what gives you the right?"
jstan, where have you been?
The title of this thread is "Why do so many people believe in God?"
My God is Jesus Christ!
T-Bird made a reference to me in regards to a quote that Karl made, something about Jesus and the "narrow path",,.
I got in a brief discussion about what Jesus was referring to in regards to the narrow path in response to Karl interpretation of it...hence, Norton asks where it says such and such about "Anyone who looks at a women in lust, has already committed adultery in his heart..."
Getting into someones business???
Your convicted dude.
Go ahead and SENSOR the word of God...
Edit: "And they shouted 'Crucify Him, Crucify Him'..."
Hoping to silence Him no doubt!
But .."His word is sharper than a two edged sword, peircing..." And "He is the same yesterday, today, and FOREVER."
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 18, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
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take it easy, tripl. stand your ground, you're a brave lad.
ah, healyje--i knew there was some viking in there somewhere. next time just stride ashore with a broadsword--never mind those silly surfboards. sounds like you got some good genes from the pa unit--begorrah to him.
i think a little healthy sex life would've done big j a lot of good. the god we've been delivered is lopsidedly male and miserably repressed in so many manifestations. nature offers a beautiful balance of male and female everywhere you turn. this is being tampered with in the christian myth, and i think we pay for it in misery we've been inured to for so long we hardly know we're miserable.
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Mad
Social climber
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Jun 18, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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I think so many believe in God because He is your ultimate friend.....in good times and bad....in between times too.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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The spirit that moves in all things is like a great ocean of water. People are like fish swimming in this ocean.
The water of this ocean is a universal solvent. Materials closely related to water come out of solution, taking a form for a while and then dissolving again back into the water of the ocean. This arrangement leads to much speculation among fish about life after death.
Fish are made of the water, with temporary forms distinguished from the formless ocean. Much competition for existence arises between all these temporary forms, even though all are part of the same ocean.
Because it is everywhere, some fish take water for granted and claim it does not exist. Other fish speculate endlessly about the nature of water without noticing the ocean. When water becomes heavily contaminated within a big school, it is difficult for fish to perceive it as water and some smart fish say there is no water, just suspended material. Lone fish that have traveled far outside the school return with descriptions of pure water and are regarded as weird.
Occasionally a great white shark comes along. A big shark is also made of water, but distinguished by being much bigger and hungrier than the smaller fish, and thus feeling vastly superior to the smaller fish. The great white shark communicates authoritatively to the smaller fish, claiming to be their god and promising wonderful things if they will just obey the shark…to grow fat and healthy, have lots of healthy kids, always do everything the shark tells them to do, and they will be rewarded in the great blue sky above the water. Some fish listen carefully and capture the shark’s words and pass them onto their many children.
Those who have seen the shark are overwhelmed by such a large fish, and create a religion based upon a great benevolent shark god. Some of the smarter fish who have not seen the shark say there is no evidence proving the existence of a great god shark.
Many of those who are obsessed with the great shark have clouded their awareness and understanding of the water and the ocean. Religion is practiced by those who have lost touch with their own spirituality.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 19, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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Nice.
What kind of fish am I? Big Eye Squirrel.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:01am PT
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Nice Tom
I knew something fishy was going on
Peace
karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:16am PT
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Regarding Largo's last post on the differences between Zen and other methods, I will agree, as I had the experience of going to a Zen master here in Okinawa with some of the unpleasant psychic/spiritual/paranormal experiences I was having, and being told they were all "makyo", illusions, and that Zen Buddhism was not a psychedelic light show.
Unfortunately this wasn't very helpful to me given what I was experiencing. I found my personality fit much better with the Indo-Tibetan system (represented by Shingon Buddhism in Japan) of gradually working through all those experiences. Once I had worked through most of them, then I could again see the Zen master's point.
If what you tried didn't suit your personality Dr. F., then try a different method, don't condemn all experiences and all paths just because you haven't found the right one yet. And if your current path is to ignore the whole thing, then admit that it's your path which works for you at this particular time, and that it may not work for other people. A common mistake we all make is assuming that the current path we're on is the right one for everyone and worse, we sometimes assume it to be the whole truth.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:35am PT
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Viking is a verb. It can be, but is usually a noun. "Vik" is an old Norse word meaning (roughly) a bay, many such of which are found in Scandinavia. It is a root in many modern Scandinavian place names, with "The Vik" an old-fashioned reference to Oslo fjord. "Viking" came to mean someone from a vik, but the exact derivation is unclear. Christian monks wrote most of what was written about Vikings at the time, and had no reason to say anything nice about them.
Sometimes English writers say someone is "going a-Viking".
On another note, TripL7 and others regularly refer to their god as saying we should or shouldn't do certain things. Things which are prohibited or severely restricted by most human cultures and religions, and which are sometimes claimed to be moral law. Behaviours that humans developed as we went from nomadic hunter-gatherers to settled agricultural folk, at much higher densities and frictions. Don't murder. If you fool around with someone else's spouse, assume problems. Don't steal. Don't lie. Do unto others. There's no need for a religious basis for any such requirements - it's simple social balance.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 03:36am PT
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Largo writes:
Material reductionism says that all "things" (from effects to stuff to energies to dreams to imaginings about God to tidal waves) are "produced," sourced or issue from atomic or energetic antecedents.
The common usage of "produced" implies a causal chain of interconnected occurances, a sequence. For instance, a factory produces a widget. They start with the raw materials and a mold, and the sequence proceeds from there to the finished product.
If the brain is said to produce thought, then we start with atomic/chemical stirrings, followed by a sequence in which A influences B which influences C and, viola, through this on-going process in real time we end up with thinking.
We might not yet have sufficient understanding of the intricate processes behind thought, insofar that we can specifically chart out the causal chain of those biochemical and electrowhatever happenings, but if thoughts are indeed "produced" but the evolved brain, than the causal chain must be there.
That is, unless someone here is saying and can explain that A) Yes, the evolved brain produces thought, and B) there is no causal chain linking the original atomic activity said to "produce" thinking, and the thinking itself.
If B is true, then by what process does the brain actually "produce" thinking?
I still don't get what the point is... certainly I would say that thoughts are produced by the brain, and that there is some process by which it occurs, a process that is physical, and involves the material that the brain is made of.
As yet, I cannot describe that process, I don't know what it is, but that is my working hypothesis. I would then proceed to formulate tests of that hypothesis and see if the observations of the tests are consistent with it, or rule it out.
In order to make sense of your "causal chain" which I think you intend to be a precise thing, we must have a similarly precise definition of thought, mind, consciousness. You have demurred in providing your precise definitions. But without such a definition it is hard to establish or refute the existence of such a causal link.
However, the causal link appears to be extremely important to your view point. I have utterly failed to understand why that is...
Also, the causal link you propose is "classical" and perhaps this is where the "quantum" sneaks into the various authors you have referenced, though my criticism remains the same of those ideas. But let me explain it a bit more.
Einstein's major criticism of quantum mechanics was essentially over a philosophical aesthetic, that our description of the universe are required to observe "local realism"... you can look on Wikipedia for more on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_realism
In your example, A can influence B only if they are "local," and that the outcome for any influence pre-exist, that is that they do not depend on the influence.
The problem is, of course, that our formulations of quantum mechanics either violate "local realism" or something called "counterfactual definiteness" the idea that the result of the influence has a single, definite result.
So one way of breaking your classical causal chain is to revert to quantum mechanics... and propose that the brain is a quantum computer of sorts... the problem with that is the conditions to create a quantum computer in the brain do not exist, and the required entanglement of the quantum states, the "wave functions" would be destroyed by the interactions of those states with the "outside world," basically heat...
...in another way, however, you have to be careful to remember that the wave functions of quantum mechanics are not, themselves, physical objects. QM's constructs such a world in order to prescribe a computational procedure who's results correctly predict the probability of the system being in a particular state. Imagining the actual wave functions as "real objects" has caused almost a century of confusion trying to understand just what, exactly, is going on...
...I'd say we don't know, but it is sure to cause a lot of flack. But the interpretation of Quantum Mechanics has yet to be provided. Perhaps we don't need it yet.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 19, 2010 - 05:02am PT
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Ed:
That's some deep stuff and it seems like physicists have as many takes on it all as the various baptist sects have on god. I have to admit to getting lost pretty quick in the thick of it. I get the wave/particle thing, but clearly don't grasp all the various implications which flow from pondering such things. Still, fascinating stuff for as long as I can follow it all - all the more so that some folks were pondering this at a time when the world largely still ran on animal power, gas, and steam.
jstan:
I think you're on to something with your comment on music. It is so 'of us' and reassuring. And the rote aspect of how we learn it also plays many assimilative, bonding, and identifying roles in a tribe or society. I think where it differs from religion is that while music maintains many of its rote functions, it also serves as a vehicle for many people to explore and express themselves through improv and the creation of new music. Religious dogma and doctrine by contrast don't encourage you to improv and riff off the basics or generate your own view of things. If it did, then half the posts in this thread wouldn't be comprised of the same centuries-old dead folk quotes.
Largo:
Your trick question is maybe just a little too trick for the likes of me as once I'm hemmed in by the causal chasm on one side and a disinterest in getting religous or new-agey on the othe other I dumb-up pretty quick relative to where to go at that point. Maybe if I had more education and chops in something like phsyics or philosophy like you guys it might not feel so much like staring at a brick wall and having someone ask 'how can we move forward'. As it is, my basic instinctual response doesn't get much deeper than 'huh?'
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 08:58am PT
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"two little fishie and a mama fishie too
"boop-boop, dittem-dattem-wattem choo!
"wow! that shark almost ate me for ...
"seafood, mama!"
jan is one wise woman. i hope fructose learns to listen to her.
i guess that was healyje's problem with the surfboard. de viking vasn't verking vor de viking. (vorgive me, voden)
i hope largo isn't throwing in the towel. he gets hung up on his own metaphors, but we all do in trying to describe the, ah, difficult to know (i almost said unknowable, which would have been hanging up on one myself). my problem with his recent post, and he's done it before, is the emptiness he refers to, emptiness "between atoms" in this case. from what i know of the subject, and it isn't a very professional understanding, there's lots of space between atoms and within atoms. atoms are essentially empty space governed by tiny particles with forces at work on them. the particles themselves fall apart in that old dance of the wu li masters. and space itself is something called spacetime. so largo's emptiness is--extraspatial? so hard to go there. happening in his mind? ergo just a subjective construct of his? why should i even try to go there?
ed: what i know of the relativity-quantum debate is einstein's remark to niels bohr: "god does not play dice". as i understand, the debate continues to this day, although "god" does indeed play dice when you let light into a camera oscura one photon at a time.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 19, 2010 - 09:20am PT
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That is not true repentance which does not come of faith in Jesus,
and that is not true faith in Jesus which is not tinctured with repentance.
Charles Spurgeon
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 09:28am PT
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gobeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee's BACK!
thou shalt not sin, said arthur dimmesdale.
um, getting back to sex here, tripl, jesus said whoever looks at a woman with lust in his heart--commits adultery with her, i guess, right?
but norton was talking about looking at his wife with lust in his heart. jesus didn't say "... a woman other than one's wife ...", right? so you literal bible dudes are stuck with that sucker--can't even look upon your own wife with lust.
just a little reasoning from a premise. i look at my woman that way all the time and would never take jesus seriously on sexual matters because, frankly, he didn't know squat.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jun 19, 2010 - 10:34am PT
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"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
— Mark Twain
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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Mark Twain was wise. It's all about awareness...not just self centered awareness or socially acceptable awareness or peer-reviewed awareness...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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the debate is not a debate anymore, at least not about physics.... John Bell took Einstein's criticism and from it derived a quantitative relationship, known as the "Bell inequality," which can be tested in experiments.
it has, and it comes down on the side of quantum mechanics.
What the problem is, I believe, is trying to make physical sense out of something that is not physical: wave functions, ψ, and their combinations... which are very much a model construction of how the world works. We are all taught, on our first introduction to the wave function, that it is not an observable, but only its magnitude ψ*ψ, which corresponds to a probability, is observable.
The way that ψ is manipulated is well described, however we run into many of these philosophical problems on the interpretation of the quantum mechanics by insisting that our abstract model of reality, depending on ψ, has a physical interpretation. It might, but there may be something else which provides a better model, by which I mean helps resolve some inconsistency of theory with experiment, that would subsume our old models and help us progress in our understanding.
This property of quantum mechanics, which Einstein referred to as "spooky action at a distance" is the stuff of entanglement so much in vogue these days... and entanglement is a property of the wavefunction ψ that Bell's theorem establishes as the correct description, and thus we find that quantum mechanics violates Einstein's cherished aesthetic of "local realism."
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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mark twain, quite the affable atheist.
my wife and i celebrated our 25th anniversary a year ago in lustful cohabitation at a bed and breakfast in angel's camp, scene of twain's "celebrated jumping frog of calaveras county". the little town is a real kick--they have the jumping frog walk (hop?) of fame on their sidewalks, with world records that sound incredible until someone tells you you have to divide the figures by three--it's judged by three consecutive leaps, and good luck if they're in the same direction.
angel's camp has probably the best rock-and-shell shop on the planet, complete with a spry octogenarian who gives public lectures on paleontology. i hope i'm cooking like he is 18 years from now. but forget the poopy for-tourists cabin south of town, built on the site of twain's stay in the area in the 1860s. not the original cabin, just there for tourists, and it's the second cabin they built, and there's a scrupulous history on a metal plaque of the first tourist trap cabin and how it got run down and how the local kiwanis-rotary or whatever rebuilt it. it's got a fence around it so it won't be attacked by terrorists, and you can walk around it and peep in at the faux log cabin work. twain rolled over in his grave twice over this. don't visit this cabin to look at the cabin, but it's in a pretty place in the woods.
we were fortunate that a genuine mark twain scholar stayed at the B&B at the same time. i shielded my eyes so as not to look at his wife with lust. it's gonna be hard to start shielding my eyes with my own wife because she's around here all day and sometimes she even sneaks up on me.
this scholar said that the reason twain came to angels camp (named after a guy named george angel, by the way) was that he and several buddies, all from san francisco, were helping one of their group hide from the law, apparently a genuine murder rap. real wild west stuff--holing up in the woods on the lam. just helping a friend out, i guess--a streak of loyalty twain apparently never talked much about. the jumping frog story, which he picked up one day when he came to town for supplies and a dram, was published in a magazine in new york and effectively launched his career as a successful writer.
btw, there's a great mark twain collection at uc-berkeley. this scholar was fresh from visiting there. it was such a fun stay we almost forgot about all that lust that had brought us together.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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oh, norton, picky picky. jesus himself got angry at the moneychangers in the temple, a regular tantrum the dude threw. don't you understand yet that it's okay if jesus does it because he's god, but not okay for you and me because we gotta follow rules?
norton, you are such an ignoramus. men are never stoned to death for adultery. women get the stoning because it's their fault for being too beautiful.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 19, 2010 - 01:13pm PT
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Thanks, Tony, for straightening my sinful white ass out about that.
Intellectual cowards, every damn one of them.
I am doomed.
Come on Gobby, tell us again how Half Dome was instantly created only 6000 years ago.
Edit, I got post 1600, only thirty thousand more to go.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 19, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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Being what my wife technically refers to as an 'Irish whore', I personally think it is a sin to not appreciate the charms of a woman who 'works' for you on a genital entanglement level. Acting on that appreciation is another matter, but lust? I'm with Donini - desire until death or death once desire is gone.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 19, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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Jesus, I've been trying to get out of this discussion but here goes:
Ed wrote: In order to make sense of your "causal chain" which I think you intend to be a precise thing, we must have a similarly precise definition of thought, mind, consciousness. You have demurred in providing your precise definitions. But without such a definition it is hard to establish or refute the existence of such a causal link.
My logic so far is to first go after what I believe are the holes in looking at a strictly materialistic point of reality. Unless we can agree what the basic material and non-material and factors are, any definition I posit would immediately be shot down if it didn't conform to a material reductionist system. A system that focuses strictly on material is great - with material. The limitation is you will never see nor even imagine anything beyond material, and most materialist wouldn't want to anyhow.
I posited the two views of Container Space and Relational Space, stating that my view is that neither is absolutely true or absolutely false, but that, paradoxically, direct experience shows us examples of both metaphysical approaches. In terms of hard science - and I'm no scientist - relativity seems to favor relational space. However the general theory of relativity, I am told, re-introduces container-like features such as the possibility of completely empty universes. Perhaps both Container Space and Relational Space are at play, depending on your perspective or what's in your field of view.
In terms of mind, you either have conscious cognitive content or you do not not. When you do not have thoughts, in those little gaps between, perhaps you might get some little sense of timeless "container space." One perspective would be to consider that space as created by thought or material/atomic stirrings, but this, in fact, is just another thought or thought process that has come to fill the space once more. The brain might say, "It's all an illusion," but this is just the analytical mind trying to
label what "it" (what I'm here calling container space) is or is not. And how about when we settle into that spaced between thoughts and the brains says, "There's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about."
Tis would be correct in one in important sense, so rather than talk about "nothing" or container space, some meditation practices focus on simply trig to be there, hanging out in nowhere. Enough time there and you'll start to understand that container space and relational space are really the same things. The ever changing flux of experience rises like a geyser, existing in mid-air for a second or a century, but in time, falling back to the source. We ;accord reality the dignity that when the geyser rises, or forms take shape, be they thoughts or pitons or the side of Half Dome, they are really and truly "there." It's the "nothing at all" and "no place" from which they arise and to where they return, that little gap at the end of your last thought and the start of your next, where worlds fall down and certainly is lost for a moment. Maybe I will try and make this "space" more tangible - my knee is f*#ked up so I can't climb or bike - but I need some time to consider this. I'm not demuring to frame this all in words, but I need time to run up to it.
E wrote: "However, the causal link appears to be extremely important to your view point. I have utterly failed to understand why that is..."
The causal link HAS TO BE there, totally unbroken, for material reductionism to be a viable theory. You have here a totally mechanistic system of causation. It cannot, at any stage, fail to act like a machine. I was forcing the conversation in the hopes of probing those places and conditions to where the mechanism apparently seems to break down, or to where other factors need to be introduced to "explain" how A lead to B leads to C. I am NOT saying that God or any super duper big man is required to "explain" how, say, atomic stirring in the brain produce thought, only promoting looking at how material itself might not be the end-all source of "all." However, if you conceive of "all" only in terms of material, we're stuck.
JL
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 19, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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Here comes another "devil's advocate" comment/question(s):
How many of the "Christians" here have ever read the Gnostic Gospels?
Why were so many other sacred texts discarded by the wayside at the Council of Nicea?
How were the "Books of the Bible" really selected? Why were these selected?
Why was the Council of Nicea even held?
Now I'm going to go lurk in my cave and await the answers to these questions from the know-it-all Christians. Some answers to these will be provided in a subsequent post.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
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gobee, a little religious humor for you--
a priest and a rabbi were pretty good friends and would sit down to a dash of irish whiskey or mogen david from time to time. and they would bare their souls.
so the priest asks, tell me, rabbi, i know you jews have a strict ban against eating pork, but did you ever, just once, out of curiosity, give in to it and eat a little pork?
after a bit of a pause the rabbi admits, yes, he did eat pork once.
then he asks, father, now i know that catholic priests must observe strict celibacy, but did you ever, maybe just once, out of curiosity, did you ever have a woman?
after quite a longer pause the priest, in a small voice, admits, yes, he did once.
the rabbi: beats eating pork, doesn't it?
brokedown: we've talked a little about the gnostic gospels previously on this thread. i've read pagels and ehrman on the subject. none of the professed christians seems to want to touch it.
ed, i hate it when a real physicist comes along. i'd rather read books by real physicists--they have to be edited by ignoramuses, making them a lot easier to understand.
so, at the risk of making this a physics lesson, you're saying that a wave function is not physical? is a wave physical?
and einstein's "local realism"--is that the special theory of relativity? if so, does a refutation of local realism affect the general theory of relativity?
largo: a little off your topic here, but perhaps it might be helpful. you're a zazen heavy on the one hand, but on the other you undertook a rather mainstream protestant heavily academic and theoretical graduate christian seminary-type education, from what i know of the claremont school of theology. i'd be interested in a short sketch on how these twain might meet.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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"lust", by the way, is a germanic word. "lustig" in german means healthy, robust, full of the joy of life.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 19, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment,' But I say to you whoever is angry to his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And who ever says to his brother 'Raca!" Shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the alter, and remember that your brother has something against you...First be reconciled to your brother, then come offer your gift.
Agree with your adversary quickly...lest the adversary deliver you to the judge...and you be thrown into prison." Matthew 5:21-25
Key words: "without cause"!!
Norton, you had cause to be angry at the women who beat her dog. It would have been tantamount to Jesus' righteous anger at the money changers(who were cheating and inflating cost etc.)in the Temple!!
Norton & T Bird...Once again, what you refer to as "lust/lusting for/with your "WIVES", Jesus would consider it as LOVE...and bless it!
Jesus was simply warning people what could happen with anger and hate in ones heart...it could go from an internal to external act.
And what good does it do to carry bitterness and anger with us...it is like a cancer that eats away and destroys you.
Therefore it is better to:
"Be angry and do not sin, do not let the sun go down on your wrath, nor give place for the devil." Ephesians 4:26
In other words, get a handle on it, and don't let your anger turn into murder!
Good advice, no?
The Lord's Prayer says "Forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven our debtors..."
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses." Matthew 6:14-15
God will forgive us of anything, if we ask. He did not say that He would eliminate all the consequences of our actions, so once again, it is better to think before we act. And reflect on all He has forgiven us for.
Just some good advice(like M. H. observed)in my humble opinion...
Anger and bitterness is destructive, we are all aware of this. I have a bad temper, and have major reasons to be very angry at individuals who have wronged me. And there are many that I have wronged...
Jesus has helped me with these issues, as Cragman and ID would say..."Glory be to God!"
Edit: And in regards to sexual lusting for a women who is not your wife, for example your secretary, or fellow worker, or your boss...how often has something that started in ones mind, ended up with a divorce or worse? That is what Jesus is telling us to 'nip it in the bud'!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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tripl, you got the key words right, but back it up one notch. anger without cause is a relative rarity, if not a nonentity.
the thing about jesus is that he really didn't have much insight, into anger or sexual desire or most of the other things he would touch on ever so lightly. what he did real well, however, was to pose as god's know-it-all, deliver a batch of lukewarm plattitudes, and then withdraw from the alleged crowds he attracted. he was quite the aloof character, and that's what damages his credibility with so many of us. we don't see a guy who ever got down here in the mix where most of us spend our lives and made real sense of it.
i don't think it's an accident that jesus was aloof. most gurus are. each one of them delivers a limited wisdom. the big ones start religions, but none of them really turns out to be the universal code for humanity that it strives to be. bottom line? gotta figure it out for yourself. it's what we're here to do.
btw, i'm in a second marriage. divorce was one of the best things that happened to me.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 19, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
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Tony-
I've actually read many of the actual Gnostic Gospels in translated form. Quite a different view emerges regards marriage, relations with others, etc. This in a way was the theme of "The Da Vinci Code." That Jesus was actually married.
I just find it interesting that most "mainstream Christians" don't even want to look at anything that might disrupt their worldview.
Pagels doesn't come very close to adequately discussing the subject of early Christianity. Read "The Templar Revelation" instead.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
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please, brokedown, don't ask me to read something on the basis of such a dogmatic declaration. reading requires commitment of time and thought. if you want me to read something, tell me about it. i might get curious.
pagels is an impressively meticulous scholar, as is ehrman. there are so many people with agendas these days. true, most scholars of early christianity have believer agendas, but there are also revisionists who stampede over facts to push nonchristian agendas. one i bristled at is that piece of scientific ignorance and old hat mythology called zeitgeist. i also have a book called caesar's messiah by a fellow who hasn't spent much of his life studying the subject, but who believes the entire jesus story was made up by the roman empire in order to create a submissive public. i couldn't sympathize more with the premise, but facts might get in the way. there is a small school of scholars who suggest that jesus never existed at all. haven't looked into that much, but i met one of the fellows and he at least can hold down a professorship.
ehrman got my attention with his little book, "truth and fiction in the da vinci code". he loved the story too, but had to tell us a lot of it is bunk.
btw, therein lies the appeal of ron brown's book. it makes something a lot more fleshed-out and human out of a figure who is basically a sketchy, aloof, otherworldly phantom whom so many are required to believe is god incarnate. i think the gnostic gospels do the same thing in a different way, but none of it is anything i'm going to get too excited about. like ehrman, who started out as a conservative christian but then realized that this literary mess could not possibly be the work of god, i prefer being a happy agnostic.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 19, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
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"The Templar Revelation" has been reviewed on Amazon (by ME) and I am not suggesting that it is the final word on the subject of Jesus. It is analytical and has some rather novel insights into the mainstream Christian story--as well as some reasons that the sexism involved with the mainstream Church got it's start at the Council of Nicea. The whole male-dominated priesthood of the early church is discussed in light of the Gnostic Gospels. It took me week to finish after much re-reading of large portions of the text. I'm a very fast reader, too.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 19, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
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i don't like to read fast, especially if there may be subtleties involved.
what you're telling me is much of what pagels puts in beyond belief: the secret gospel of thomas. the gospel of thomas is sort of a "hippie" christianity (she doesn't use that word), and it may have been the dominant school at the time. the gospel of john, she says, was written as an intentional polemic to stamp out the thomas people and, yes, the heavy hand of the roman empire came to bear with constantine, who might be right down there with nero and caligula when all the history finally gets written.
my devoutly catholic brother won't hear of it. all this stuff is made up by protestants. "in hoc signo vinces" we heard, growing up catholic, but then why did jesus say his kingdom was not of this world, and that if it were of this world, his followers would be fighting to save him?
as i said to tripl, god's dirty work, and it sure makes god smell.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 19, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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Just for fun, get a copy of a book of Da Vinci's paintings. Leonardo was a believer in the John the Baptist cult. The so called "John Gesture" is portrayed in many of his paintings, including the Last Supper. Leonardo believed John of greater holiness than Jesus.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 19, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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Gee Go-B, but for your supernaturalist belief, you'd have me with just about every post....
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bestill
Trad climber
s. ca.
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Jun 19, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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show me god and i will believe. but wait,what is god?where is god?when is god?why is god? and how is god? can you or... even you answer these simple questions for me. if not,well,we are simply back where we started. so where did we start? was it here or there?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 19, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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Largo wrote-
"You have here a totally mechanistic system of causation." -damn straight.
A little out of context but a beautiful sentence.
Now wonder if people, at least more people, tried adapting to this modern "new age" science supported model instead of fighting it. They might discover it's got potential to empower in the "practice" of living after all.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 19, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Dr. F.- No worries, man, I get you all the way.
P.S. Anybody seen Agora, the film, starring Rachael Weisz, yet? Highly recommended. Shows the roots of the mess that eventually was institutionized that some of us today are fighting to get past in the interest of better living.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 19, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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show me god and i will believe. but wait,what is god?where is god?when is god?why is god? and how is god? can you or... even you answer these simple questions for me. if not,well,we are simply back where we started. so where did we start? was it here or there?
Spirit,
Heaven
Eternal
I AM
Self Existing
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 19, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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For many of us, the Abrahamic super-religion wouldn't be any more significant in our lives than astrology if it kept away from science, education, politics and law.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 19, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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Freedoms exist in a mechanistic universe. Of course they do.
Anyone care to debate that you cannot have freedom- meaningful forms of freedom- in a strictly mechanistic universe? If so, let's hear your best shot.
(Of course, it would go much smoother, too, if you didn't bring up that by and large useless nonsensical term, free will, unless your intent is to derail the conversation.)
Astrophes- personification of a mechanistic universe.
I believe in Astrophes. Belief in Astrophes makes a lot more sense than belief in Jehovah. Astrophes is a version of Hypercrates.
"Your words are unknown to me, HFCS, therefore meaningless." That's okay, really.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 19, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
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By tending to explain phenomena by referencing ONLY the physical or biological causes is tantamount to climbing a route by listening to only the soundtrack of a climbing vid!(maybe not so good of an analogy).
You are leaving out the actual physical and visual(mechanical)elements, etc.
In fact, you are leaving out the very nature/presence/essence of that which you are attempting to define/explain/experiance(the supernatural)...it can not be done.
Edit: A tire without air...it lacks form/utility/completeness!!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 19, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Dr. F wrote:
So if I don't do the right kind of meditation
I must do the right kind of Zen meditation, or I'm just wasting my time
Is that it Largo, my experiences are not worthy of any true Religious, or zen experience
Typical blow off, you gotta do it the right way, you weren't committed enough, you didn't do it long enough
-
The thing is, just look at how rigid people are here with their beliefs. What do you think it would take to shake High Fructose out of his mechanistic views? Can you imagine the experience that he'd have to have to rattle his conviction about what he thinks he knows, is certain that he knows, etc?
Then we have you, Dr. F., who in part, tie an almost rabid atheism at least in part on having supposedly already exhausted the entire field of meditation. You apparently found no Christian God in the process, and have since gone on to universalize your experiences declaring, unequivocally, that since you experienced nothing greater than yourself, nobody, in the history of mankind, ever has, and anyone claiming otherwise is either a wholesale bullshitter, a simpleton, hasn't read the "science," or is simply delusional.
Then I hear you describing Zen mediation in terms of "states," which is curious since Zen works to get past states.
One of the barometers in any of the esoteric arts is how rigidly a person holds onto states, content, beliefs, ideas, stuff, material, and can let themselves drop into the very heart of the unknown, the "nothing," or "container space" that I keep mentioning. Why? Consider this:
Couple hundred years ago there was a quirky German bachelor, who was never late for anything, named Kant. He swore up and down that our minds act like tracks in a pinball machine, railroading the careening balls of raw experience into channels of understanding. This process is so insidious, wrote the Kraut, that the fundamental is-ness of rocks and trees and Indian chiefs is entirely unknowable. We know facts and facets, concepts and properties, but never the ding an sich, or the-thing-as-such. Yet this very ding flickers in the space between thoughts. And if you can somehow hang there for a while, you might encountered the is-ness of yourself. And the whole universe became so much noumena, known instantly and at dept by the genius of your (fill in the blank). Now the Kraut I mentioned would swear the ding an sich did not exist, like many here swear up and down that all there is, is material. Period.
Now what new experiences are these people really open too, or is it more likely they have given up asking questions, and concentrate only on whatever confirms their own convictions.
So maybe the starting point with you might be: What is it that you really and truly don't know, in terms of human life and experience, and would very much like to know?
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 19, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
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"What do you think it would take to shake High Fructose out of his mechanistic views?"
It is science's stance. By multiple convergent lines of evidence.
What some fail to grasp is it is science's stance. Perhaps because of a lack of science exposure, education. My stance reflects science's stance. After 40 years in science and science education I trust in it. Proof is every engineering wonder, from contact lenses to planes to vaccines to computers and ipods.
Religious people, in different terms, supernaturalists, bent on preservation or whatever choose to fight this. Science education enlightens. It points to a mechanistic universe as surely as it points to biotic evolution.
What some fail to grasp or perhaps better fail to respect is that when it comes to facts, some beliefs are correct in regard to how the world works, some are incorrect.
Red has a longer wavelength than blue. It's a simple fact. I believe red has a longer wavelength than blue. That is the correct belief. Similarly, the belief that in 1941, Egyptians bombed Pearl Harbor, is an incorrect belief.
Sometimes a "closed mind" is a good thing. It's a mind that has made a decision, a judgment. Sometimes an open mind or a mind that never closes is not a good thing. There is an art to the practice of opening and closing the mind to information and decision making and naturalists (for lack of a better word) and supernaturalists plainly practice this art with different styles.
It is lame (weaksauce here at the Taco) to just say someone has a "closed mind" and to leave it at that without any followthrough explanation or context.
Yeah, my mind is "closed" to the claim that Serapis emerged from stone as tightly as it is closed to the claim that Aphrodite arose from sea foam.
My mind is open- very open- to the idea that there are other "big beasts" of intelligence in the Milky Way.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 19, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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Dr. F.- Who are you posting to? Your last post, was that directed to me, title your posts.
If so, I certainly do not believe in God Jehovah or God Jesus anymore than Zeus or Serapis. Insofar as I've speculated about Diacrates, say, and still do, it's only as Einstein did. And as far as Hypercrates, well, that's just a working personification of Fate in the same way Grim Reaper is a working personification of Death.
EDIT 9:00p Okay, good to hear, title that baby, so there's no miscomm or misundg. Cool.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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One of the qualities that the Supreme Lord, God exhibits, is he's all attractive.
Even the atheist is attracted.
If God is not attractive to every person, how can He be God?
The atheist chants "There is no God" continuously.
This is how they are attracted.
There's no escape .......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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Dr.F- "No God ever came out and said here I am, look at me..."
Come on doooooood!
There are practically NO educated, DOCtorate level published writers of any ilk taking the stance that the person, Jesus Christ, did not indeed exist on planet earth during the first quarter or so of the first century!
That is no longer a key issue.
Get with it! Your DENIAL of the fact that JC did actually reside here is proof of your staunch devotion to your own obstinate opinions!
And He did claim to be God! And people did indeed look at Him, etc...
Get with it DOC!!!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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If God is, he must be supremely attractive or he is not God. But if he is God he must be supremely unattractive as well, if not then how can he be God?
The sword of faith always has two edges.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Aw, Pshaw, you wouldn't even understand....
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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Doh! Not the Hole card!?!
I believe in Skully.
It works for me. Don't like it? Bite it.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:23am PT
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Religious people, in different terms, supernaturalists, bent on preservation or whatever choose to fight this. Science education enlightens. It points to a mechanistic universe as surely as it points to biotic evolution.
What some fail to grasp or perhaps better fail to respect is that when it comes to facts, some beliefs are correct in regard to how the world works, some are incorrect.
The "enlightened" interpretation that religion inherently appeals to the backward or simpleminded.....thank heaven that explanation has no proponents among our friends on this forum. But should we dismiss it out of hand? Open-mindedness to rational inquiry is historically linked with atheists and agnostics, forget Newton, Kepler, Boyle,Faraday, Pasteur,Heisenberg, Lemaitre etc. Certainly, when we consider errors, offenses, immorality and mistaken beliefs.... can't we just assume the religious are more reckless, rascist, reactionary, superstitious and so on....and we should associate those parties with simplistic or closed-minded approaches to objective inquiry..
Pronouncements like this possess a circularity that makes them tedious to counter
"We are fabulous. We are liberated. We are superior. We are the most enlightened apes in all the jungle! We believe it......so it must be true!"
Let's face it - if we accept the elitist dictum that all intelligent and informed people share certain beliefs, questioning those beliefs places dissenters substantially outside the community of sensible and compassionate human beings..... that's one gaping fallacy in atheist polemics.
Similarly, the elitist premise that souls, innocent or not, who fail to accept Christ inherit an eternal lake of fire....while the
"saved" become heir to Grace and Heaven on the merits of ...faith, with or without good works....and by praising God with their lips .....is an irreconcilable rent in the fabric of Christian dogma.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:33am PT
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paul roehl
Just remember
I didn't use the word "if"
You people always use "maybe, if, it could be.
Always trying to guess everything out of your own limited mind.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:50am PT
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Similarly, the elitist premise that souls, innocent or not, who fail to accept Christ inherit an eternal lake of fire....while the "saved" become heir to Grace and Heaven on the merits of ...faith, with or without good works....and by praising God with their lips .....is an irreconcilable rent in the fabric of Christian dogma. There is a gaping flaw in all religions. That is, they are all human constructs, and were invented (revealed, if you so believe) on a specified date. Judaism around 1,400 BCE (the time of Abram/Abraham, anyway), Christianism around 30 CE, Islamism 632 CE, Sikhism in the 15th century CE, and Mormonism around 1840 CE.
Whichever system you adhere to, it by definition excludes all humans who died before that religion started. (The Mormons have a transparently clumsy work-around for this one.) Why should someone be denied salvation just because he/she died before the founder of the one true religion got around to showing up? Millions if not billions of humans are thereby arbitrarily excluded from being saved.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:02am PT
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Whichever system you adhere to, it by definition excludes all humans who died before that religion started. (The Mormons have a transparently clumsy work-around for this one.) Why should someone be denied salvation just because he/she died before the founder of the one true religion got around to showing up? Millions if not billions of humans are thereby arbitrarily excluded from being saved.
I may have missed the nuance of your reference to Mormons, Anders....but there in no eternal burning in lake of fire, no "unsaved souls" in the dogma of that particular faith.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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"There is a gaping flaw in all religions."
You're the ones that keep talking about religion.
I'm not.
You are the gaping flaw yourselves ......
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:16am PT
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In Mormon theology, what happens to the souls of those who died before Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, etc? They were never exposed to his belief system, and were never Mormons. Never could have been. All religions say that only true believers benefit in the hereafter. Those who consciously choose to believe something else, or not believe at all, are really in for it, of course. But what of those who never heard of the faith, or were born before it was invented? What happens to them?
Dante had an interesting solution to this one, building on the work of other Christian theologians.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:26am PT
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In Mormon theology, what happens to the souls of those who died before Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, etc?
In Mormon theology, all souls enter one of the three levels of Heaven.
Hell and it's fire being metaphor and figurative speech for guilt and agony brought about by wrongdoing.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:36am PT
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FWIW,
Jennie- "An elitist premise that souls, innocent or not...who fail to except Christ, inherit an eternal lake of fire..."
I don't consider myself a member of any elite or an "elitist" but I have been called worse so...
Souls(innocent or not)who have not reached the age of accountability, do not get banished from Gods presence. What is the age of accountability you may ask? No one really knows, but sometime after being capable of knowing the difference between right and wrong, and being able to make a firm decision. Probably between puberty and adulthood. Probably different for each individual.
Some handicapped people never reach that ability.
And keep in mind that Jesus considers that after that age of accountability that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!"
Jennie- "faith, with or without, good works..."
Not so!!
Jesus states that if it is truly faith, then good works will follow! If a Christian isn't walking in good works there is something wrong.
And it is on the "merits" of faith, and repenting and turning from sin! Being truly remorseful!
Continually turning from sin.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:58am PT
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I don't consider myself a member of any elite or an "elitist" but I have been called worse so...
TripL7, I wasn't intimating reference to you, personally, as eltist in the practice of your faith. Some warrant that title, some do not.
Thanks for the reassurance that some Christians still esteem good works as consequence and sequel to faith.
I appreciate your post
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 20, 2010 - 03:25am PT
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"...He also felt that Old Norse mythology provided a model for what one might call "virtuous paganism," which was heathen; conscious of its own inadequacy, and so ripe for conversion; but not yet sunk into despair and disillusionment like so much of 20th century post-Christian literature; a mythology which was in its way light-hearted."
Wondering if valkyries might wing you to Valhalla swifter than angels, Anders?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:30am PT
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It's a sad day when the Christian fundamentalists have managed to convince a sensible and humanistic person like Anders that all Christians, let alone all religions, believe that those who went before their religion was founded, are condemned.
The original Christians taught no such thing and the majority of churches today also do not. Unfortunately the most vocal and political of the Christians in America do so, and thereby give Christianity a bad name which is then applied to all religions by inference.
It was Martin Luther, who in protest against the corrupt sale of indulgences by the Catholic Church came up with the idea of being saved by faith alone. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches who represent way over half the Christians on this planet, promptly declared that a heresy as have numerous others ranging from Episcopalians to Quakers to Mormons to Unitarians to name a few.
The notion that what a person believes about Jesus is more important than the actual teachings of Jesus about how to live one's life, is the logical extension of this heresy and what we hear so much of on this thread.
Nobody is quoting Jesus when he said .....you can heal and prophesy and have faith that moves mountains but unless you do the will of our Father in heaven, I will say I never knew you...... those who do the will of my Father in heaven give food to the hungry, water to the thirsty, aid to orphans and widows, visit the sick and those in prison.
No dogma, no formulas, no rituals, no condemnation based on doctrine, just good works.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:55am PT
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Jan- "The Christian Fundamentalist...believe that those who went before their religion was founded, are condemned."
Who teaches, and believes this???
I have never even heard it before, let alone believe it, and in my 50+ years as a Christian, have never heard of anyone else preaching, or believing it!
It is this type of here say, that is down right lies, set forth to make Jesus, and His followers look bad!
PATHETIC!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 20, 2010 - 05:33am PT
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So you're telling me that every Hindu and Buddhist and practitioner of a non Hebrew religion before the birth of Jesus is saved?
If that's the case what about the current practitioners of those religions who have never been exposed to Christianity?
And if that's the case, then why are you so concerned about the non Christians on this thread?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:35am PT
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forgive the long post--was taken out to a chinese seafood orgy last night. i feel like the python who swallowed a deer and now must lie on the jungle floor for about a month before being able to crawl.
largo: you strike me as being a bit rigid yourself. will you admit to that? the difference between you and everyone else on here, myself included, is that you're being coy about something you're not putting out on the table. rather you seem to be playing a zazen game with us, trick questions and the like and plenty of ad hominem criticism of attitude. zazen is like hypnotism. if you're not willing, it won't work. don't try to make unwilling disciples out of us.
werner: all-attractive? there's another interpretation of the same data. the believer chants "i believe" continuously in order to convince himself. and i love your use of the word "escape". if god really were that attractive, people wouldn't even be dreaming of that. what you're describing is one will versus another, and it doesn't surprise me that there is such futile obsession with this abstract "will" of god.
tripl: that professor i referred to is a doctorate-level published writer, up on all the scholarship. he said he's one of a rather small group suggesting jesus never existed. he's at a small women's college near cornell and is active with the center for inquiry.
as i said, i think the greatest argument against jesus is jesus himself, whether he existed or not, in all that comes to us informationwise, from whatever source. were it not for the imperative of resurrection, he would not be taken seriously. he is a burden to humanity, and all of us outside his thrall have become quite suspicious of what he's done and continues to do to us.
jennie: glad you recognize the elitist instinct of the human race. if you look further, i think you'll recognize it all over the natural world as well. it has to do with survival. now look at the development of the jewish myth, and the frosting jesus puts on that cake. elitism every inch of the way: god's chosen people, always winning out over their enemies (with a few embarrassing lapses), jesus "saving" only those willing to ride his coattails. you can't get away from it.
btw, where did that quote about old norse mythology come from?
skully: good credo, but you let the cat out of the bag. you gotta work it into titheing first.
brokedown: i had avoided the da vinci code for more than a year after it came out, but my daughter bought me a copy of a special edition for a father's day gift which sumptuously illustrates all the art and architecture referred to. yes, fascinating.
leonardo da vinci has become a key figure to me, and by no means an attractive one. i happened to visit his native village in tuscany a few years ago, where they have a couple museums devoted to him. the greatest genius you can imagine--thomas edison and michelangelo in a package. he was a "flambuoyant homosexual" and at the same time much in demand by those in political power to assist in the winning of wars.
in figuring out what really happened on 9/11, i find myself in a dark world where not very nice wizards hidden behind curtains keep the public in control by means of the furious pulling of levers. someday they will get tired.
i wound up reading all of dan brown's books--he plays with this subject quite a bit, and i suspect there may be a web of control going back to leonardo's time--others say even beyond. i find it verrrrrrry interesting that dan's next book, dealing with the masonic order, is being suppressed. if you think we live in a normal world, they wouldn't be sitting on the next book out of one of the best-selling authors in history.
interesting, tripl--you're parroting catholic theology here but in different words. or were you the catholic one? if so, they've changed the tune a bit. it used to be "age of reason", and it happened at age 7. but you must not be catholic if you don't know about those who are not saved because they were born outside of the opportunity to know christ through catholicism.
catholicism used to have that lovely place, limbo, "neither here nor there". for some reason, it always appealed to me. you didn't have to fry, you didn't have to carry huge boulders up a mountain, you didn't have to fit yourself into that boring thing called heaven. dante's vision of heaven is a great shining rose. emily dickinson refers to it:
diadems drop
and doges surrender,
silent as drops
on a disk
of snow.
emily was a great candidate for heaven, burning her life away in beautiful loneliness.
when pressed, what the priests and nuns would describe as limbo sounded a lot like the good life. maybe MH and i can go there if we're decent pagans. give me that old norse lighthearted mythology. and a valkürie--what a woman!
but see, i've had a little peep at what the afterlife is like myself. i can tell you about it. most of you aren't really interested. fructose thinks i'm nuts and the christians think the devil is dancing rings around me. mwahahahaha!
jan, that's another thing i don't like about the teachings of jesus: becoming a good works robot. to me, the fella had the most un-spiritual approach imaginable. you don't "do good works" unless you've gotten your head together to the point where you have some internal motivation to do them. of all the religions we discuss here, christianity seems the least able to get people to that point. good works are a flower of much internal construction. christianity ignores what's inside us from the get-go, teaching us first and foremost to distrust ourselves. visiting people in prison? i wouldn't recommend that unless you REALLY got your head together.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:46am PT
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Perhaps if I meditated or were blessed with faith I could believe in a God- reason, logic and the evidence at hand take me the other way.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:23am PT
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In Science we know #2 to be correct, (2. The universe began to exist.) We call it "The Big Bang." There was a moment when all matter, energy, space, time etc. was at an infinitely small point we call "the Point of Singularity."
Kalam Cosmological Argument
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument
The Kalām cosmological argument is a variation of the cosmological argument that argues for the existence of a Sufficient Reason or First Cause for the universe. Its origins can be traced to both medieval Christian and Muslim thinkers, but most significantly to Islamic theologians of the Kalām tradition.[1] It has been revived in recent years most predominantly in the works of Christian philosopher William Lane Craig.
The argument
William Lane Craig has formulated the argument as follows:[2]
1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.
Craig argues that the first premise is supported most strongly by intuition, but also experience. He asserts that it is "intuitively obvious," based on the "metaphysical intuition that something cannot come into being from nothing,"[3] and doubts that anyone could sincerely deny it.[4] Additionally, he claims it is affirmed by interaction with the physical world. If it were false, he states, it would be impossible to explain why things do not pop into existence uncaused.[5]
The second premise is often supported by philosophical arguments and scientific verification for the finitude of the past.[6] One philosophical argument is that the number of past events must be finite and cannot be infinite, meaning that the universe must be finite and therefore have begun to exist. This argument is established by the following syllogism:[7]
1. An actually infinite number of things cannot exist.
2. A beginningless series of events in time entails an actually infinite number of things.
3. Therefore, a beginningless series of events in time cannot exist.
One way that Craig supports the first premise is by referring to Hilbert's paradox of the Grand Hotel, a thought experiment that shows how paradoxes and absurdities would result from an infinite number of existing things.[8] Next, after taking the second premise to be self-explanatory, he states that the universe is indistinct from a "series of events."[9] Thus, the conclusion can be read as "a beginningless universe in time cannot exist," which is equivalent to, "The universe began to exist."
Another philosophical argument for Kalām's second premise is that an infinite collection cannot be formed by subsequent addition. If events occurring one at a time cannot ever reach infinity, the past must be finite and so must the universe. The argument is formulated as such:[10]
1. The series of events in time is a collection formed by adding one number after another.
2. A collection formed by adding one member after another cannot be actually infinite.
3. Therefore, the series of events in time cannot be actually infinite.
Craig argues that premise one is confirmed by the sequential, forward movement of time.[11] Premise two is argued for by the contention that no matter how high one counts, one more number could always be counted.[12] Likewise, no matter how much time passes, one more moment could always elapse. Hence, when supplanting 'universe' for 'series of events,' the conclusion logically follows and supports the main argument's second premise.
The scientific confirmation for Kalām's second premise focuses largely on the Big Bang theory, which states that all matter and energy originated in a cosmological singularity roughly 13 billion years ago. Craig interprets the Big Bang as the temporal beginning of the universe, and discounts the Cyclic model, vacuum fluctuation models, and the Hartle-Hawking state model that would suggest otherwise.[13]
With Kalām's conclusion logically following from its premises, Craig concludes by arguing that impersonal, scientific causation exterior to the universe could not cause a finite universe. He gives the example of the temperature being below zero infinitely, and thus any water, although caused to be frozen by the subzero temperature, could not begin to freeze; it would be frozen infinitely.[14] Similarly, any condition that could cause the universe to exist would have to be infinitely, and thus the universe would also exist infinitely. The solution, Craig posits, is that the cause of the universe's beginning to exist must be a personal agent.[15] Craig has extended this argument to conclude that the cause must also be uncaused, beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, enormously powerful, and enormously intelligent.[16]
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:39am PT
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I think Jan, Klimmer and Jennie oughta get together and go camping, they'd have a blast.
Tony wrote-
"jan is one wise woman. i hope fructose learns to listen to her."
I'm confused. In what area? In what way? To placate her. Not.
If she posts in a way that suggests EO Wilson or Dennett isn't a mechanist (materialist), she's going to get called out for it. Because it is bullsh#t.
If she posts that 3rd -19th century Christians weren't as much literalists or weren't as superstitious about how the world works as today's fundamentalist (literalists), she's going to get called out for it. Because that is bullsh#t, too.
No placating bs or placating appeasers. Not from me. Because modernity has supernaturalisms and superstitions at long last on the ropes and now there's no letting up. In the way of astrology, it's off to history for them. Thanks internet-driven info age. Thanks sciences.
By the way, the paranormal's been studied, birdman. The decision-making: it is as ridiculous as the supernatural. And just as disrespectful of the sciences to believe in it in the face of so much contravening evidence.
Maybe you should join them on their camping trip?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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many who have studied the paranormal haven't reached your conclusions, bubb. you subscribe to a scientific sort of orthodoxy of your own fabrication. but you're the skeptics society guy, right? get a little skeptical about your own orthodoxy.
"disrespectful to the sciences". rofl--next thing you'll have us genuflecting to statues of einstein.
btw, jan's a scientist.
klim: that's the problem with cosmological argument--premises "supported by intuition" forwarded as "proof". the "need to prove" is the product of the "need to believe", and i think it's a lot like that car race software, "the need for speed". i'm a rockclimber. i couldn't care less about going fast.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Birdbubb wrote-
"many who have studied the paranormal haven't reached your conclusions"
Reconstruct it: Many who have studied the paranormal haven't reached science's conclusions.
Yeah, Birdbubb is one. The name for the rest: the lunatic fringe.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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btw, fruct, several of us involved in the 9/11 truth movement have had dealings with the skeptics society. they seem to want to suspend the laws of physics for the world trade center story. take a look at it, if you think you know anything about science.
what largo said: in psychology, there is a thing called 'information bias.' we filter out whatever does not conform to what we think is the truth ... we literally will not consider or be open to contrary information, or else we will alter its value or definition so as not to threaten our preconceived notions or given criteria.
tell me what you know about paranormal science and why you throw it out. everyone else here argues details. you just dismiss.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
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dr. F, you must be confusing what i aimed at fructose. i probably agree with you--i'm open to evidence about the paranormal and i don't think it necessarily proves anything about god.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
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"we literally will not consider or be open to contrary information, or else we will alter its value or definition so as not to threaten our preconceived notions or given criteria."
Now you're REALLY reminding me of Klimmer: How rich when supernaturalists or paranormalists or crazy conspiracists provide such a quote. The pinnacle of the pot calling the kettle black.
"everyone else here argues details. you just dismiss"
Laughable.
Later, birdbubb...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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Dude, do you read others' posts?
F wrote-
"Tony, I never said all paranormal activity is bunk."
Sorry to hear that. But science does. Time and again. Ad nauseum. Spanning decades now. "Paranormal activity is bunk." That's the stance from science. Mine, too.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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there are actually a few academic havens left for paranormal research. most of them have been drummed out of existence by scientific orthodoxists like fructose here or made a laughingstock by movies like ghostbusters. duke university has one, the university of nevada-las vegas used to have one, the ucla neuropsychological institute got its start with a great one, the late thelma moss, but it has gone the way of all unorthodox inquiry.
dean radin, with a master's in electrical engineering and a phd in psychology, may be one of the foremost researchers currently. he likes to cite carl sagan's own admission that at least three things are worth looking into: 1) that by thought alone, humans can (barely) affect random number generations in computers, 2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them, and 3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation.
me, i wouldn't jump to sagan's conclusion about reincarnation. but i have experienced the intuiting of information that could not have been known in any other way than by psychic ability.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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NIST lied.
Research it Dr F.
Research it completely from NIST they even admit it and been caught red handed.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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you do know about building 7, dr. F? and about the near free-fall speed involved in the collapse of all three buildings?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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Birdbubb wrote-
"...likes to cite carl sagan's own admission that..."
"me, i wouldn't jump to sagan's conclusion about reincarnation."
Two more wildly irresponsible constructions.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
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Says Corn Nut the imitator God .....
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bestill
Trad climber
s. ca.
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Jun 20, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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in answer to jaun's original question,i will add this: they have no choice. i mean,if you are hanging by half a rope on a run out shitty,loose,mancky,funky,giant ow with snakes in it,wouldn"t you jump in a foxhole.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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so, building 7 then, a 42-story steelframe skyscraper collapses in less than 10 seconds on the afternoon of 9/11, hours after the twin towers came down. it is one of many buildings ringing the twin towers block on all four sides from across the street. none of them were hit by airplanes, there was damage, but none came down except building 7, which came down just as fast as the twin towers.
some mysteries can stand a long time, others solve pretty quickly.
another real good mystery in this context is the fact that the pentagon was hit 45 minutes later, without a smidgen of air defense taking place over washington, d.c.
------
"all three of these have been investigated since Carl Sagan's time, and debunked"
sagan's time wasn't that long ago.
dr. F, both you and fructose seem to accept a lot without being able to speak about the details. if you knew this material and understood it, you'd be able to talk about it. as it is, you're both here in everyone's face, just as noisy and insulting and assertive as the bible quoters, quoting material you haven't even looked at closely but regard with the sacredness of a "good book". you're making a myth of your own out of science. science is a long process of inquiry and experiment, and truths have been know to come along which wipe out everything previously agreed upon.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:15pm PT
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Details? Ask away. I love details.
In the interim, want an example in open-mindedness:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/latin_america/10333304.stm
"you're both here in everyone's face, just as noisy and insulting and assertive as..."
Now you're really being girly...
Claims: (1) Earth is round. (2) Life is at base physics and chemistry and the buildup of these into ever more complex systems, all mechanistic. No experiment has ever show otherwise. (3) The brain, like the other organs, actually does something. It's called mind (including consciousness, sentience). (4) Jehovah (aka Yahweh) was one of 100s of Mediterranean-Mesopotamian Gods.
Yeah, I'm "assertive" about these claims. Believe you me, it is not to "convince" anyone or "make anyone believe." Such reverse accusations are so lame. No doubt these accusations are often made time and again now by an Abrahamic religious person (e.g, Klimmer) because they are already a part of his vocabulary, having heard it thrown at him and his ilk so much.
But keep the faith, change is coming: there's a huge difference between the methods, styles and thinking going on in the sciences and these same things in the Abrahamic religions. And the latter because of it are losing big time. In two or three more generations, time will tell the evolutionary tale.
Declaring my support (for these claims or others) expresses my identity. Expressing my identity serves numerous ends. For one thing, it advertises me. It tells others who I am. Not a supernaturalist for example clinging to bronze age stupidities. Also, it tells the world that there are some who respect science, science education, reason and not everyone is a modern day supernaturalist.
The details are everywhere in books. Don't confuse decision-making (which is a good thing, arguably defining our species) with close-mindedness (e.g., in the traditional Christian or Muslim style). Most can see through it to the bullsh#t.
P.S.
Why don't you naysayers try adapting to the shocking bits of the so-called Scientific Story (e.g., it's evolutionary nature, it's mechanistic nature) instead of fighting them. You might find after some exposure they're no longer so shocking and life based on the Scientific Story ain't so bad afterall.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Tony-
One of my good friends is a licensed professional blaster, who commented on building 7: "That was a professional masterpiece." FWIW.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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Corn nut says -- "It tells others who I am."
As an anonymous leg humper.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
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Fructose-
I'm not suggesting that Wilson and Dennett aren't materialists. I also never said that 3rd - 19th century Christians weren't literalists. What I am saying is that most modern Christians seem to be coming around to a stance more similar to the early teachings and the early church and that Wilson has said scientists and religious leaders need to work together for the sake of the planet. Both of those positions involve compromise which is probably why you object.
You keep trying to put people in boxes, but most people are not committed to a single unitary view. As someone who has lived in in eleven different countries and struggled with learning four very different languages, three of them non European, and who teaches in two different departments, everything from physical anthropology to Eastern religions, there is nothing in my life experience that would lead me to believe that there is only one correct way of thinking or doing things whether it is religion or science. I can talk about evolution and I can quote the Bible, and the Bhagavad Gita and the Dhammapada. I use western medicine and acupuncture. I don't feel that I need to choose only one.
As for camping trips, I think it would be very interesting to camp with Klimmer, Jennie, and Tony. For sure we wouldn't agree, we might even decide to put some topics off limits, but I'm guessing that not being as committed to a particular version of truth as you are, we'd find common ground even while discussing religions and conspiracies. Who knows, we might even spend part of our time constructing a religious conspiracy specifically aimed at driving you mad?!
Who knows? We might even call you girly.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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Jan to Corn Nut -- "You keep trying to put people in boxes"
Exactly what he does all the time.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
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Kudos to Wilson for trying to get together with Creationists and Evangelicals to save the biodiversity. I've been aware of this effort of his (to work with them) for a long time.
"I'm not suggesting that Wilson and Dennett aren't materialists. I also never said that 3rd - 19th century Christians weren't literalists."
These things are exactly what you suggested (if not outright said in regard to the evolution of Christians and Christian fundamentalism being mostly a modern 19th-20th century American invention).
Jan- Happy camping.
Brawny- Get off my grass.
P.S. (a) Engineers as applied scientists have done some pretty impressive things working out of their "boxes" and spelunca. (You can only express P=EI in so many ways, it's not open-ended.) (b) Birdbubb- Good luck with your paranormal details.
A major mistake the JKJT club seems to make- as if in unanimity- is that they are the only ones at the Taco who have put serious decades-long scholarship or study either (a) into these subjects directly or (b) into the intersection where science, philosophy, religion and belief all meet up. Another that it seems to make is that if you get around to decision making and actually make decisions based on this study and then defend these decisions against bs you hear or read then you're close-minded.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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All the purposes of man have been defeated, but not the purposes of God. The promises of man may be broken-many of them are made to be broken-but the promises of God shall all be fulfilled. He is a promise-maker, but He never was a promise-breaker; He is a promise-keeping God, and every one of His people shall prove it to be so.
-C. H. Spurgeon
There is no expiration date on God's promises!
Psalm 89:1-8, I will sing of the steadfast love of the Lord, forever;
with my mouth I will make known your faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I said, “Steadfast love will be built up forever;
in the heavens you will establish your faithfulness.”
3 You have said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one;
I have sworn to David my servant:
4 ‘I will establish your offspring forever,
and build your throne for all generations.’” Selah
5 Let the heavens praise your wonders, O Lord,
your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones!
6 For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord?
Who among the heavenly beings is like the Lord,
7 a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones,
and awesome above all who are around him?
8 O Lord God of hosts,
who is mighty as you are, O Lord,
with your faithfulness all around you?
Revelation 3:7, ‘The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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Corn Nut
It's not your grass assho'le .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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Took you a long time to figure that one out, huh Brawny.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 20, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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What comes into our minds when we think about God,
is the most important thing about us.
-A. W. Tozer
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 20, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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Dr. F wrote:
One last blast on Largo's contention of my closed mindedness
I never said that if you do Zen Meditation the right way, or long enough, that you can't reach deep states of nothingness or anything else.
Maybe they are enlightened, but that raises a different question, what is enlightenment? Its not oneness with God, or escape from humanness. They are still human, they still can't explain God outside a mental grasp of it inside their head.
--
I gave you an opportunity to show your so-called open mindedness by asking an honest question about anything that you don't know, but want to know. The offer stands for Fructose as well. I don't offer to answer the questions - not my job and I probably couldn't anyhow - but I'd like to see the questions, the honest questions that you have about what we all face; who we are, what is this life, where are we going. Such questions prove an open mind.
Answering your own "question," as you did above, with catagorical certainty, is not the fruit of an inquisitive, exploring, adventurous mind, rather the cognitive detritus of a mind that has decided, absolutely, on how things are, for all mankind, now and forever, per spiritual concerns. It's a typical reaction known in psychology as "universalizing," whereby, as Karl pointed out, you base all of reality, for all mankind, upon your own experiences. Once this gets started, you'll just circle the same wagon forever. And needlessly. A few questions might bust you out of it, but of course we'll never see those questions.
You went on to say: "So your contention, does not hold water."
Kindly outline my "contention," based on what I have written.
Lastly, while Tony seems interesting enough, this business about a 9/11 conspiracy is impossible, totally. You know why? It goes back to an old saw from Ben Franklin: "Two can keep a secret, if one of them is dead." The chances of 50 or more folks keeping a huge internationl crime a secret, in modern government, is a stretch on credulity, to say the least. To most psychologists, "conspiracy obsession" (of the type David G. has) and personality disorders go hand in hand.
The guy (David G.) purporting all of this was a prof of mine for many years in grad school. He is a perfect example of sky high intelligence working against itself. A real shame.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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Largo wrote
Lastly, while Tony seems interesting enough, this business about a 9/11 conspiracy is impossible, totally. You know why? It goes back to an old saw from Ben Franklin: "Two can keep a secret, if one of them is dead." The chances of 50 or more folks keeping a huge internationl crime a secret, in modern government, is a stretch on credulity, to say the least. To most psychologists, "conspiracy obsession" (of the type David G. has) and personality disorders go hand in hand.
I don't know what happened on 9-11 except that we don't know the truth. I question your above assertion though about secrecy: Operation Northwoods was not uncovered for decades, the assassination of MLK is in question even though courts have ruled a conspiracy was in effect. Bush and crew conspired to get us into Iraq via bogus means and, like 9-11, even though many know the event is surrounded by lies, nobody official seeks the truth. Even though we know the Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie, who knows how that went down and who was responsible?
Politics and religion both get warped in service of money and power. It's a scandal but there's one more important aspect that gets warped the same way...Science! Our best minds get bought into making bombs instead of serving constructive human interests and don't get me started on the politics of climate change science and how the Bush crew ignored science in favor of paid science and politicians
Peace
Karl
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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JL,
All due respect. I know it is hard to look into the rabbit hole deep and fear what you might find. But if you think people can't keep secrets, man, that just is not true. Doesn't hold up when you look into it honestly. There are many people who go to their graves without ever spilling the beans.
After WW2, finally 50 years after taking his oath, my Grandfather was finally able to talk about how he worked in intelligence in Washington DC at the Pentagon, and was involved in breaking Russian Code. He didn't breath a word until the 50 year oath was complete, then he spilled the beans to the entire family. He kept his oath to the US Government. He was very happy to finally be able to talk about it openly and honestly. A few years later he passed away.
True enough, some do spill the beans when they are old in age, when they realize it is time to clear their consciences and come clean. Also late in life, if someone doesn't like what they have to say and decide to take them out, less harm then, they lived a longer life than they probably would have and they didn't have to suffer the outfall.
This is true on so many levels, UFOs/Aliens, Assassinations of all kinds, 9-11-01, the list goes on and on.
I highly recommend to anyone to read Jesse Venturas new Book, American Conspiracies. I rate it a 10 out of 10, it is that good and that eye opening. It is very well written and footnoted. A great primer into all the big conspiracies. You will rethink many things after reading it.
American Conspiracies: Lies, Lies, and More Dirty Lies that the Government Tells Us [Hardcover], Jesse Ventura (Author), Dick Russell (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/American-Conspiracies-Dirty-Government-Tells/dp/160239802X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277066086&sr=8-1
This question is for everone who poo-poos the truth:
Are you willing to take the Red Pill and look honestly down the massive dark rabbit hole? Or you gonna turn away and stand-back from a safe comfortable distance and shout ad hominems ignorantly?
Man-up or Woman-up. Time to learn the truth.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 20, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
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Largo: Before this goes down the conspiracy rabbit hole I'd like to say that, while I can't tell for sure, you appear to be trying to have it both ways - the causal chasm on one side and a claim you aren't talking about religion or new-age conjecture on the other. Now I have to admit to being a bit dense, but what else is there? What exactly are you positing if not one of those two alternatives? Maybe you are saying it clearly and I'm just missing it, but it seems as though you've stuck a very particular pin in a very specific place and are now attempting to dance on its head.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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Received some shocking news with regard to the 9 – 11 conspiracy just this last week. This comes directly from a Senatorial assistant whom, of course, I can’t name.
I was told that Christ Jesus has returned to the earth and, in fact, has been here since 2001!
This is no joke but comes directly from Senatorial sources.
Our Lord is currently staying in Texas with the Bushes who we all know are his ardent supporters. It seems Christ and Bush manufactured the entire 9 – 11 attack as a means of mobilizing the faithful like they’ve never been mobilized before. And they, Jesus and George, still solidly support one another.
According to this new information the resulting attack against the infidel hordes of the Middle East is apparently a necessary precursor to a final Armageddon. The problem, of course, was the unexpected intrusion of the devil disguising himself as Barrack Obama. This has disrupted the plan to some degree.
My friend says that all people killed in the collapse of the towers went straight to paradise no matter if they had been good or bad, had accepted the lord or not. And this was just part of an expansive agreement between the heavenly hosts and U.S. leaders bargained for by our heroic ex president. I find this a great relief.
The Gulf oil spill is another righteous attempt on the part of the Son of Man and our beloved President Bush to bring down the devil (Barrack Obama) from his earthly throne. What is being expelled below the ocean is not oil but the slurry of hell escaping now into our own earthly realm. It is possessed of demonic evil and must not be touched or used in your car as gas or motor oil.
As it states in Revelation when the world’s seas turn black then will come the end of time.
It is true that the only way such a grand conspiracy (of love) could take place is because the lord stands so solidly behind it. Conspirators who thought they might divulge any secrets of the Lord were caused to speak in strange tongues that could not be deciphered. If you don’t think this is true take a ride in an NYC taxi and you will believe.
So take heart every one the secret is safe and our Lord is one. Yes, and I’d like to apologize for all those atheistic posts I made prior to finding my way. We all await the mid term elections and the defeat of Satan.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
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Paul, Klimmer's gonna eat this up. And if I criticize your "friend," Jan and Tony are going to call me closed-minded, narrow-minded, monophrenic (thinking in just one way). So I better not...
EDIT 4:17p Oh, boy. (Below.)
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
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Gonna have to counter Paul's humor with some Truth . . .
Everyone will know when Jesus Christ returns. There will be no doubt.
The Bushes and GOD are as close as Earth and the edge of the Universe. Bush is deluded.
http://kingjbible.com/mark/13.htm
Mark 13: 1-37 (KJV)
1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! 2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? 5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. 8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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"Everyone will know when Jesus Christ returns."
He never ever left to begin with.
His teachings are non different from his body. They are transcendental.
If you are following his teachings then Jesus Christ has never ever left.
If you are under illusion that the body of Jesus Christ and his spirit are different then nothing can be done for you as you have not yet learned the fundamental basic spiritual knowledge.
You are worshiping the teachings of Jesus Christ and saying he left is very poor fund of knowledge.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 20, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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Now Dr. F, have you not repeatedly said, in no certain terms, that anyone, throughout time and space, who claims to know a single thing about God, is entirely wrong and deluded? Why jump on my case for point this out? If this is mistaken, who do you consider to know anything, at all, about spiritual realities? Anyone, ever, throughout history?
You also seem to be insising that I have not given you the opportunity to ask a qustion, which is the earmark of an open mind. So here it is again:
I cordially invite you to show your open mindedness by asking an honest question about anything that you don't know, but want to know. I am not qualified to answer or even try to answer, but I am very curious to know what your questions are, should you have any.
What's more, the thinking on this thread - pardon me for using scholastic jargon - is mainly issuing from two camps: Positivism, which claims that the scientific method is the best approach to uncovering the nature of reality ("a recurrent theme in the history of western thought from the Ancient Greeks to the present day"), and on the other end, consisting of windy, New Age fluff about angels and shite. As if thse were the only two point of view out there.
The entire idea that measuring (science) is the only real and vigorous truth finding methodology is as tired an idea as believing the Tower of Babel was an actual physical structure and that Noah's Arc was so many cubits long.
What's more, I got blasted for saying this:
Answering your own "question," as you did above, with catagorical certainty, is not the fruit of an inquisitive, exploring, adventurous mind, rather the cognitive detritus of a mind that has decided, absolutely, on how things are, for all mankind, now and forever, per spiritual concerns. It's a typical reaction known in psychology as "universalizing," whereby, as Karl pointed out, you base all of reality, for all mankind, upon your own experiences. Once this gets started, you'll just circle the same wagon forever. And needlessly. A few questions might bust you out of it, but of course we'll never see those questions.
Now if I was to state that I catagorically KNEW, with absolute certainty, the absolute truth about everyone who has ever lived per spirituality, would that position be consider arrogant and insulting? Or am I arrogant and insulting for suggesting that this catgagorical knowing is in fact open for debate. And I'm not going to get deadly serious with anything on this thread - especially the boring Prussian, Kant, who I respect but who's basic notions about consciousness I don't agre with.
But it's good to see things heating up. Now we might see some movement in positions and shifts in perspective. And it's all about pattern interrupts.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
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"The offer stands for Fructose as well... I'd like to see the questions, the honest questions that you have about what we all face; who we are, what is this life, where are we going."
Sorry, Largo, I missed this earlier. I have lots of questions. It's what drew me to these fields a long time ago. Still does. One question I have is how the brain circuitry does what it does (a) to give us the so-called "central theater" and/or (b) to give us intention.
More generally, other questions I have inspired me to read John Brockman's books: What Is Your Dangerous Idea? also What have You Changed Your Mind About?
Honest questions I have: How serious is this Peak Oil deal? If it is as serious as some claim, how's humanity going to fare in the post Peak Oil days? How will it handle a reduced carrying capacity for the planet from 6.5 billion to 1-2 billion? During this transition, no doubt humans will adapt but what will be the quality of life for the average Joe both during the transition and afterwards?
Another question: The strength of our species is determined in large part by the strength of our gene pool. What if anything are we doing nowadays to weaken our gene pool? In the olden days, hand to hand combat and tribal alpha males went a long ways to honing the strength of our community gene pools. These are no longer in place in our metropolitan if not global environments. Again, might this be weakening our gene pool long term, say measured in units of 10 generations, and in what ways?
Nowadays, what honing mechanisms if any are strengthening, sharpening, our gene pool? Because of entropy, everything runs down, rusts, dulls, smooths out. So it's a serious issue, a serious question. If our gene pool has no honing mechanisms, it's going to weaken, then what?
Still in regard to genetics: Is cloning, generally speaking, really so dangerous an idea or practice it should be taboo across the board on all sides? Or might the subject be more complex, e.g., problematic along 100 ways yet beneficial along 200 or 1000 ways, thus deserving some attention in practice?
Like Carl Sagan and millions of others, I'd like to know if we're the only radio species in the Milky Way. (Radio species, mind you, not bacteria or simple eukaryotes or vegetable species or big beast species.) Sometimes I lapse into thinking that perhaps we are, but if not, I'd like to know how these other intellient radio-level species made it through their so-called "technological adolescence" esp bringing with them through the advance their innate genetic variation and diversity. That's another huge question.
Of course I'd like to have a crystal ball of perfect truth and a crystal ball of perfect future. So I could know. Then my life would be complete. At least complete enough.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
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Boy go on a hike and come back and the Klimeratti conspiracists have hijacked!
A little altitude and a long walk works wonders for coalescing thought into words.
On the "Nature of God";
Christians, Jews and for that matter Muslims don't seem to put a lot into this at least in their primary writings. Job gets into it but from an extremely anthropomorphized perspective. The Koran has God as Vengeful warlord (more a reflection on the cult founder) Jewish tradition a tribal Father figure, and Christianity something far more complex, but still personal and a bit anthropomorphic. Only John's gospel seems to get into the "nature" of God and only in some fairly esoteric terms. Yeah, there's a rich tradition of parsing these ideas from theologians and philosophers, but not much in the primary writings like Tao or Buddhist original documents that are much more concerned with the nature of the universe issues and a bit less on the nuts and bolts of daily life compared to say the Bible.
Christian thought is far more illuminating (and essentially correct) about the nature of man. The notion of the imperfect-ability and innate corruption of man ( the concept of original sin)sticks in the craw for many but is an essentially correct description of the human condition and the best starting point for establishing theorys social order. Now the Greeks had something similar with the whole Huburis, Nemisis thing but both provided the foundation for the concept of indevidual rights and limitations on government. (No Greeks/Christianity, No modern Democracy)
Get away from that notion of imperfect-ability and you get Fascism, Communism and the progressive movement. All complete failures because they fly in the face of the reality of the human condition.
Now here's a question for the mechanistic rationalists;
Where in the evolutionary goo between your ears resides beauty?
Now Beauty is a bit like pornography, everyone recognizes it when they see it. Just about every other human emotion can be rationalized in mechanistic terms but what and more seminaly WHY is there beauty?
From today's hike
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
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Fructos wrote:
(a) to give us the so-called "central theater"
-
Shite. That's the million dollar question, I'm thinking. Great one. Let's dig into it.
I gotta a date so I have to wait to get after this but I relish the chance to explore it from my perspective.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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TGT- Welcome to the tenth grade. Nice pictures, tho.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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√Christianity is nothing if not Hellenized Judaism. As a result it was relatively easy for Aquinas to put Aristotle and St. Paul in bed together. Though I can’t imagine Aristotle having liked that.
The question of beauty is really wonderful. I like what Victor Cousin said: “… the beautiful cannot be the way to what is useful or to what is good: it leads only to itself.
Or Neitzsche’s … for it is only as an aesthetic experience that existence and the world are eternally justified.”
But more simply put by someone of limitless intelligence: “Beauty is that which pleases.”
Human beings take delight in their senses and the “pleasing of their senses.”
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jstan
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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"The entire idea that measuring (science) is the only real and vigorous truth finding methodology "
John I continue to have difficulty interpreting that which you write.
1. First of all "truth" is a misleading word. When you say "truth" people generally imagine something that is known absolutely. Such are in very short supply and it is not useful to phrase our goal in terms of a near null set. Better to say we search for increasingly better ways to predict, in a given situation, what the natural and material world will be or will do. Inevitably this is an iterative/contnuing process. We never get to go home saying, "Yes. Finally I have the answer. We go home with answers that are better than the one we had yesterday and we have done tests that show just how much better it is.
2. I don't remember anyone claiming studies requiring quantification and testing of all hypotheses is the ONLY method of value. So I am, here also, standing on one leg and am off balance trying to evaluate your contribution.
A lot of people, myself included, are convinced we know of nothing better( see above) and specifically that methods wherein we just make up answers without any attempt to test them, are definitely inferior. Historically some other techniques are yielding today exactly the same results they yielded millennia ago and with an unchanged dataset to support it. None.
You are overstating rather seriously on both these points.
3. When we use a word in an unusual or specific context we need to look at the need to define it.
What is a real truth finding methodology? You know what you mean but if I don't know what you mean, we have no basis for discussion. This happens a lot.
To one degree or another we all do it and to the same degree we all lose because of it.
In school I was immensely fortunate in having a superb teacher for plane geometry. If our efforts are going to allow our discussions to put us in a place different from that which we occupied at the start, we must needs clearly understand the meanng of each axiom, each theorem, and even each word we have used.
Philosophical discussions are, if anything, even more seriously constrained in this regard than are proofs in plane geometry.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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HF
Explain the mechanistic origin of beauty
Or shut up!
Paul.
That's a bit like describing a Mercedes as a Germanified oxcart.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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You should read it again when you've had less to drink.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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TGT
I read your post and thought the (beauty question) was an intelligent question.
Here's another example of the Corn Nut trying to put someone into a box again and at the same time being an assh'ole again which he no doubt is.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
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TGT wrote-
"Christian thought is far more illuminating (and essentially correct) about the nature of man. The notion of the imperfect-ability and innate corruption of man ( the concept of original sin)sticks in the craw for many but is an essentially correct description of the human condition and the best starting point for establishing theorys social order."
HFCS wrote-
"TGT- Welcome to the tenth grade..."
I rest my case. No, I better explain it: Original Sin (aka the Fall) is the biggest load of bronze age ignorance ever. Great mythology, sure, but tragic as an accurate and valid explanation for much. Including dystropy (bad turn events in the lives of living things), otherwise evil.
No living thing, including H. sapiens, is innately corrupt. Certainly not made that way as a result of any Original Sin and Divine Punishment. This is bronze age ignorance.
No "corruption" on a species-wide level, therefore nothing that needs forgiving on a species wide level. Wake up. Take some comparative religious studies courses. Upgrade your models for how the world works and how life works.
My earlier post didn't reference the beauty issue at all, indeed it complimented your pictures.
As far as beauty goes, nature, evolution and natural selection did a good job with it. Agreed.
TGT wrote-
"Explain the mechanistic origin of beauty..."
That's easy. Evolution. The evolutionary process is mechanistic. That's an explanation at one level. At another. We have circuitry that's dedicated to attraction and repulsion. It is a must. A must for living things. Without it, ancient forebears of every species would've been up the creek without a paddle. And thus doomed. Beauty is an expression, otherwise perception, of attraction.
Your welcome.
P.S. Maybe some further soul searching would be helpful. Maybe you are one of those who "cannot stand the idea" that appreciation of shapes (beauty) or appreciation of beauty or perception of beauty is an evolved function. (Again, designed by evolution for attraction.) If that is the case perhaps you should use your limited time, energy and resources trying to adapt to the understanding of this evolved functionality instead of trying to fight it.
Here, perhaps this beauty deserves another look:
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
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Largo: Ok, I quess I'll take the lack of response as a 'sign' this is actually a religious discussion in a philosophy wrapper.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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Philosophy and religion are often in bed together. This goes back centuries. That they are explains a lot (much explanatory power) and the realization is a real eye opener as to why philosophy (academic philosophy) hasn't been more productive in the last two hundred years. In regard to productivity, there's no comparison between philosophy and engineering.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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HFCs: I can keep religion, science, and philosophy separate. I just think Largo is trying to have a discussion on religion without saying as much.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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perception of beauty is an evolved function. (Again, designed by evolution for attraction.)
Can you please provide a plausible explanation of how the emotional reaction to the three photos (or any of Jody's or Karl Baba's work, a fine piece of music, or classic painting as another examples) fulfill any evolutionary function?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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TGT wrote-
"Can you please provide a plausible explanation of how the emotional reaction ... fulfill any evolutionary function?
Yeah, from yet another perspective: the "emotional reactions" relating to beauty keep us engaged in life, they keep us coming back time and again. Damn effective, too, don't you think. I continue to be engaged day by day.
In different terms, Paul's remark:
"Human beings take delight in their senses and the “pleasing of their senses.”
The beauties of the world, or of life, are one more reason to get up and going in the morning. So, too, the day to day or hour to hour "pleasing" of the senses. In different terms, they're motives. Darn effective.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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”Jennie: glad you recognize the elitist instinct of the human race. if you look further, i think you'll recognize it all over the natural world as well. it has to do with survival. now look at the development of the jewish myth, and the frosting jesus puts on that cake. elitism every inch of the way: god's chosen people, always winning out over their enemies (with a few embarrassing lapses), jesus "saving" only those willing to ride his coattails. you can't get away from it.”
Tony,
Yes, perhaps an egalitarian society of equals is dream world stuff. And perhaps my mind has little understanding of human nature and human history.
But doesn’t hard elitism “fly in the face “of “natural selection”? (At least in regard to the intelligentsia, the creative and the proponents of culture?)
Such people, the thinkers, the innovative, often become targets of the ruling elite (as well as the masses).
Certainly, that class of individuals found Nazi and Marxist totalitarianism rather harsh and confining, if not deadly.
Marx advocated an egalitarian state but communism, as conceptualized by Marx, has never occurred. Why? …because of elitism of the very expounders of communist philosophy. The “ just society” envisioned by Marx failed because people who typically succeed in climbing to the top of military force usually crave power…and the power mongers, not the wise, succeeded in seizing it.
(As in all elitist society, the power, wealth and economy of communist USSR was made to serve the power elite, at the expense of the general population. Like in capitalist society, with elitism comes selfishness and corruption, and with corruption comes routine institutional and economic inefficiency and a host of social problems.)
Yes, we can conclude that elitism is inborn into the human race….but if indeed instinctual it may have become a serious limiting factor in forwarding, elevating and ensuring survival of the race.
”btw, where did that quote about old norse mythology come from?
The quote is from Tom Shippey, TOLKIEN AND ICELAND: THE PHILOLOGY OF ENVY…I found it following Ander’s "Virtuous Pagan" link.
http://www2.hi.is/Apps/WebObjects/HI.woa/wa/dp?detail=1004508&name=nordals_en_greinar_og_erindi
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 20, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
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Why?
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jun 21, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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I don't know....
I mean...
It goes without saying...
oh... and they are weak minded... (very closed minded.. but weak)
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 01:15am PT
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Hi Dr.F aka Craig, my friend and a really good climber. I been thinking 'bout yo lately and talking to my best friend about you.
First, TGT is the real deal, great mind and intellect so don't diss my Bro. Oh yeah, and a great climbing partner....:D
That said, I was thinking today about how you and the Bird mon ..... no not Bridwell but the other one here on ST......both remarked that years ago God had let you down so you no longer believed he was for real or a real entitey that had love and involvement in the life of humanoides here on the planet.
That happened to me too when I was @ 18 searching and struggling for answers to all the questions a thinking, feeling person has. I came to a mind crisis and yelled out to God, "if you are for real talk to me, show me you, for crying out loud DO something." I had hit a low point, I didn't really want to live. Life was so Dang painful and lonely. It was late at night and I laid there and listened and no God talked to me. No God let me know he was for real. So I decided after that One night that I would jess do it my way.
Fast forward 5 years. Yeah, I did it my way and tried plans A-Z. All I did was become less and less of what my heart and soul tugged at me to be. Finally after the last of my plans failed I gave up. But when I gave up my best Friend was there to meet me. You can live life on your own, or you can really live life. lynnie
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 21, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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Jennie deserves a gold medal for her patience, civility, and tolerance. Even if it might embarrass her. I haven't actually met her, and perhaps her real-life persona is quite different. But her posts on ST, and what those who know her say, speak volumes. The noisy religious types who pester us should take a lesson from Jennie in civility, and the importance of good works as opposed to preaching.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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fructo, i think you were in on the discussion back up the thread when that fellow told about his sister's lacerated tongue and how it was healed by the fervent prayers of her loved ones during the state of emergency. this fellow was not making it up. i don't share his interpretation of it, but such things happen and they're not unusual. it confirmed his religious faith. for me, it confirms my interest in the paranormal. such things are a threat only to reductionist belief.
largo, we've got klimmer, karl and brokedownclimber all with some inkling of what david ray griffin and i talk about. personality disorders? maybe you and fructose will at least agree on that.
you have a good point about the keeping of secrets. i felt that way too at first, and i almost said i can't argue with that aspect of it, but then karl brought up operation northwoods, which is now a matter of public record. you've got some homework to do.
dr. F, i've been avoiding that republican thread. i like the other things we discuss here.
hey, paul roehl, nice to see you lighten up a little.
tgt hiked mt. baldy. i was up there too a couple weeks ago, falls full, lots of western wallflower. interesting take on things, fellow. i look at evolution as the source of what you call imperfection--basically the competitive and self-interested origins we have in nature. your passion for perfection i see as a residue of the christian way of thinking, which none of us who grew up in america, at least perhaps before 1970, can really escape entirely. i see the obsession with perfection as a bit of a flaw in itself. i think that beauty and truth, as i've posted here several times, are the real basic principles. the notion of god or gods, while seemingly universal in our mythic heritage, never seems to create much consensus--everyone has a particular take on it, and they never seem to converge. but beauty is an arrestingly obvious and reassuring thing, telling us somehow that all is well, "deep down things," as hopkins put it. as fructose says, this is a flower of evolution, and as he further posts, even our sexuality, which of course is a development of evolution.
btw, fructose, is that your daughter? when i look at such pictures, my wife gets mad, not because of the jollies i get, but because the men never take their clothes off too.
jennie you know enough about history if you can see how idealistic schemes are scuttled by human nature. your egalitarian ideal would be too, if you put it in a manifesto and got some important countries to base their systems on it. i don't see any shortcuts to utopia. the long road involves becoming aware of what's going on. thanks for the tolkein link--will check that.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:35am PT
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one other little fantasy for you here, fructo. i wouldn't worry too much about the old gene pool and pruning away the dna detritus. you see, nature takes care of that automatically, as it has done for the past 3 billion years or so. you're suffering from species-specific self-interest, an understandable thing, of course, but, face it, the human race has certain built-in weaknesses, among them an overabundance of noisy born-again whatevers. i'm with dr. F here. i have great faith in the ability of cockroaches to come from behind after we've extincted ourselves and most of the biosphere in a nuke-out. it will take them millions of years, but they will surely evolve into intelligent beings and probably have a better time with their history than we have had with ours. cockroaches have this built-in dance step that serves them well, and they can survive all kinds of poorly aimed stomping by others. flush 'em down the toilet and they breed in the sewers. give 'em a few million and they'll be finding fire, inventing gods, composing symphonies, writing E=mc2 on tiny blackboards, carrying it all into the future. we'll all be long gone. not to worry.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:52am PT
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dr. F: allow me to answer the question you're trying to back largo into a corner with.
largo is into process theology. they have a rather different take on god. he won't tell you why he believes in god, or if he believes in god. his spiritual discipline is zazen, an esoteric japanese thing, slippery as heck. i've asked him to outline a little bit why he went from zazen to the claremont school of theology and its academic protestant process theology program based on a british guy, alfred north whitehead, and he won't answer me either. maybe an angel, figurative or otherwise, walked into camp 4 one day and said largo, how'd you like to spend a few years in a seminary, no charge. largo will run off on an adventure at the drop of a hat.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:53am PT
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TripL7:FWIW!
One third of the angels fell with Satan, they are not all knowing(omniscient)but they know about the past because they were there!
This is who SOME of the so called fortune tellers, psychics, etc. are communicating with! They cannot foretell the future, but they do know something about the past...as in from one second ago!!
They have NO benevolence for the human race WHATSOEVER, so...BEWARE!
Wow, dude... You have it bad.
Even judging others as "convicted" according to your narrow dogmatic interpretation of an ancient text / mythology, that even the MAJORITY of Christians (Catholics) disagree with you on... And mind you, it is THEY who cannonized the NT that you use, came up with the idea of the Trinity, etc... Hell, dude: THEY were almost the entirity of Christianity for the first 1,500 years, so your particular idea of Christianity is more of a modern construct disassociated with history, and even the real message of Jesus.
Can't answer such direct and simple questions ]as I've, or others have posed to you... All you can do is quote you text, and you have to cherry pick yo do it.
But... You can still judge others.
More RUSH:
The night is black, without a moon.
The air is thick and still.
The vigilantes gather on
The lonely torch lit hill.
Features distorted in the flickering light,
Faces are twisted and grotesque.
Silent and stern in the sweltering night,
The mob moves like demons possessed.
Quiet in conscience, calm in their right,
Confident their ways are best.
The righteous rise
With burning eyes
Of hatred and ill-will.
Madmen fed on fear and lies
To beat and burn and kill.
They say there are strangers who threaten us,
Our immigrants and infidels.
They say there is strangeness to danger us
In our theatres and bookstore shelves,
That those who know what's best for us
Must rise and save us from ourselves.
Quick to judge,
Quick to anger,
Slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice
And fear walk hand in hand.
That you!
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:18am PT
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Regarding TripL7, Jan wrote:So you're telling me that every Hindu and Buddhist and practitioner of a non Hebrew religion before the birth of Jesus is saved?
If that's the case what about the current practitioners of those religions who have never been exposed to Christianity?
And if that's the case, then why are you so concerned about the non Christians on this thread?
He will not answer you, as with questions like this, he and his ilk are forced to Ignore... Ignore... Deny... Deny...
They have no other choice.
And regarding anyone who believes in a huge 9/11 conspiracy... Just ask yourself:
How many people would have been aware of it, in at least some way, in order to pull it off?
Seriously... Rigging a building for demo requires a lot of preperation of the structure and placement of explosives, especially a building like the WTCs... Now, not just the people prepping the building, but all the "civilians" who weren't even involved having to listen to jack-hammers chipping concrete, welders cutting I-Beams, right next to them, since the floors were occupied. Not to mention the planes, and passangers, as they would also need to be dealt with by people. Then we have the planners.
So... Just reasonably answer how many people you suppose it would take (give a minimum number please), then how ALL those people can have stayed quiet all this time.
C'mon... You can do it... Use your brain. Dip your toes into the waters of 'reason'. You may not be used to it, but you'll get used to it, and it's actually pretty comfortable once you get in.
Sheesh... Next thing people will be telling us there's a city sized space ship on the far side of the moon that is responsible for populating the planet.
Oh, wait...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:25am PT
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worked for you, lynne, no argument. didn't work that way for me, and that seems to bother you. your take on things is made insecure by mine, and you won't be totally secure in yours unless you can get me on the same track. i suspect the real reason is that you're taking a certain risk with this "best friend there to meet me" business, which i translate as a jesus program in one form or another, whether the man appeared to you personally on top of kanchenjunga or someone like illusion dweller got you to go to his saturday night revival meeting. like i say, live and let live, believe and let believe. but christians are always getting on the cases of nonbelievers, to our everlasting irritation. you don't respect us and where we're at, the basic foundational respect human beings ought to have for each other as strangers in order to begin a productive interaction. you don't make a very good case for yourself in this way. what you have to do is put more of yourself on the table, and that will involve further risk.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:41am PT
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rrradam, i can only say you haven't looked into it. there were reports from wtc workers of rigging-type operations going on in the weeks preceding 9/11. at one point the towers were completely shut down for an entire weekend, strange comings and goings by alleged security and engineering personnel. you also don't know the latest technology. buildings can be rigged without jackhammers and noise, or even wires, because radio signals can be used to activate some very powerful chemicals that cut the steel. there are photos you can look at on various 9/11 websites which will show you steel beams from the wtc that have these characteristic diagonal cuts from planted thermite. the plane flights themselves are suspicious. one of them wasn't even a regularly scheduled one, and there were very unusual activities reported at the cleveland airport in the midst of the events. it's a whole web of evidence, hitched together, as john muir would say. all you have to do is start tugging on one piece. having worked on a couple of high-rise projects myself, i know how strong a big building has to be. they just cannot come down at the speeds these three buildings came down at, it just flat-out does not happen that way. random damage, such as an airliner strike would cause, would cause a random, haphazard collapse, and only a partial one, if at all. when people started looking at this critically, they started to realize that no steel frame skyscraper in the history of the world was ever destroyed by a fire to the point of collapsing, and there have been fires a lot more intense than what went on at the wtc. stay on topic, buddy. don't start talking about spaceships.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:02am PT
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to bring you up to speed, there are now a number of profession-specific organizations for the advancement of the truth about what happened on 9/11, personality disorders coming out of the woodwork from every point on the compass. damn cockroaches. architects and engineers for 9/11 truth, professional airplane pilots for 9/11 truth, scholars for 9/11 truth and justice, patriots (ex-military types) for 9/11 truth, medical professionals, journalists, it do go on.
i was involved with the architects and engineers group for a year, a rather nerdy crowd, but they know their facts. the process is a slow one. richard gage, the berkeley architect who got it going after hearing none other than david ray griffin on the radio, had hoped to have 1,000 registered professionals signing on to his petition for a realistic investigation by december of 2008. it took him an extra year. it's painful to push and painful to listen to, but there really is no other way.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:23am PT
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Please... Just do as I asked, and post what YOU think a minimum number of people who must have know about this would be, and HOW all of them them could have kept quiet all this time.
Simple question, brutha.
And I HAVE looked into it, in depth, as I've gone over this in detail with people, and that required me looking into it. I also have an extensive background in various aspects of construction, including "failure analysis". I now work as an inspector at an operating nuclear power plant, after inspecting nukes all over the country for well over a decade.
"Truthers", like many Fundies, suffer from a profound confirmation bias, in that they focus on many things that have been accounted for, or debunked... They too "I... I... D... D...". And when asked 'reasonable' questions like I posed, ignore them too. Much of what you wrote above is an incorrect assesment of the facts, but I'm not gonna go into it, as I, and others already debunked much of it here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2213608#2213608
Take some time... Read through that thread, then come back with specifics on what you disagree with and "WHY".
Just one example:when people started looking at this critically, they started to realize that no steel frame skyscraper in the history of the world was ever destroyed by a fire to the point of collapsing, and there have been fires a lot more intense than what went on at the wtc. No other steel frame skyscrapers have been hit by airliners either... Traveling at such significant velocity that the fire proofing came off of the beams. The intense fire, fuled by aviation fuel, burned for a while and softened the steel to the point that it could not hold the weight above it, and it collapsed, and that inertia (the floors above) was great enough to sustain the collapse all the way to the ground.
Notice the word "critical" in your quote... You need to be more critical...
That's a very common flawed scenario you posted abovem yet many keep "I... I... D... D..." the fact that the WTC's were the fitrst to steel skyscrapers to be hit by air-liners, and... , but keep using it anyway.
Remember... It will only take 1 verifiable fact to bring it all down like a house of cards, but in all these years, there hasn't been even 1.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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rrradam, i'm not going to look through your threads any more than you're going to look through mine or read all the books i've read or talk to all the experts i have questioned on this personally face-to-face. but i will read everything you have to post here. it's up to you to make it cogent.
so, dealing in the trivia you're citing here: building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner. airliners don't "knock" fireproofing off steel beams everywhere in a building. i doubt fireproofing gets knocked off at all, and big steel girders don't really need it anyway. jet fuel, which is essentially kerosene, doesn't burn hot enough to affect building steel significantly without sophisticated carburetion, as in a jet engine. the fires in the wtc were turning black, indicating oxygen depletion, as anyone would expect inside the confinements of a building. when that happens it means that the fires were getting cooler. even if the steel were weakened to the point of bending, things would sag and totter, not come down in rapid floor-by-floor blasts as could only happen with controlled floor-by-floor demolition. look at the videos. stop your own ignoring and denying.
there has been speculation about minimum numbers of people "knowing" and the role of chain of command and so forth. it can only be speculation at this point, but throughout all the investigating and controversy, there is significant secretiveness. one of the most glaring is what happened at the pentagon, the most monitored building in the world, where no clear images were released of the strike AND immediately afterward, security cam footage from a hotel and gasoline station were immediately confiscated and the contents never released. now what in the mother-f*#king hell does that tell you?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:21am PT
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Military grade nano - thermite can be spray painted or brushed on.
No need to jackhammer anything.
Not saying this how it was done or not.
But big wannabee smart guy Adam, you really don't know everything and just do a lot of guessing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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Hey, please take the 911 stuff to one of those many threads.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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Healyje- So you think H. sapiens will ever get around to it: to developing a narrative based on the so-called Scientific Story that might rival the Abrahamic narrative in popularity? in the pop cultures of humanity?
If so what themes do you think it will cover? e.g., inspirational heroic efforts, heroes, human goals and ambitions, creative pursuits, life guidance for the young and old, different kinds of prescriptions based on interests, goals... What would you like to see it cover for it to be meaningful to you?
Would you like to see it push for growth, not necessariy economic growth but other forms of growth, say higher achievement in the "practice" of livng or perhaps not push for growth at all but push for life satisfaction in simple or not so simple Pacific Island-like subsistence living.
Curious as to your thoughts.
"...will ever get around to it..." I mean, in the next 100 years, where it could do our generations some good.
Or, is the Abrahamic narrative just too powerful (with its appealing elements of a God Father, Judgment Day, eternal life, absolute morality, etc.) to ever be supplanted as the pop story (of belief discipline practice).
Not really looking for anything complete here, just a factor or two to consider, for consideration, in a list of possible thematic elements that might characterize a competitive narrative.
Food for thought: how about the heroic effort to "fly solo" or to "live unroped" in the Cosmos, to define our own direction? at the species level, at group and community even individual levels too. (In the Abrahamic narrative, of course, this has often been deemed "arrogant" or "playing God Jehovah" or "insulting to God Jehovah".) Just watched the film, Agora. At least in the film, Hypatia (played by Rachel Weisz) was killed for her "ungodliness" (i.e. disbelief). "Heroic" instead of "arrogant" in regard to self-determination and flying solo could be honored, valued; perhaps this thematic element would be a breath of fresh air for some.
EDIT
Reminder: My view is that the Scientific Story- as powerful as it is- is not good enough, it is incomplete, in this role. The Scientific Story is a "what is" narrative. It is expressed in terms of facts. ("Just the facts, Ma'am.") It is not a "what matters" narrative; it is not a human narrative that touches upon what humans, many, think about- including what Largo alluded to a couple pages ago: Where are we, what are we doing, and where do want to go? in this adventure or riddle we call life.
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pa
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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HFCS,
someone asked you to explain the mechanistic origin of beauty. You answered:
As far as beauty goes, nature, evolution and natural selection did a good job of it.
Yes, I think we can all agree on that, but it is an explanation that doesn't explain much:
Nature, Evolution, Natural Selection are words, descriptions which convey a concept, a process, traceable to the point of DNA structure and the amino acids it is composed of, the carbon and hydrogen and oxygen...but what assembles them?
The elements that make up the DNA of a cockroach or a tree or a human are the same, it is the gaps in the sequences that determine differentiation of form.
So, what is the force that assembles, such that coherence and cohesion follow?
What assembles input to create cogent thought? Intelligence?
Why does a Coltrane riff move someone to tears and irritate someone else?
Why does the photo you posted as an example of beauty strike me as vaguely disturbing?
You say:
...beauty is an evolved function. (Again, designed by evolution for attraction).
Again, evolution may explain the process, but says nothing about the origin. Or, put in another way, it says what it does, not what it is.
You could insert God in its place, or the Great Elephant on a Disk, or whatever, it's still a mistery.
"Designed by evolution"...implies a designer, or, who/what is evolution?
Just like your other statement:
...the emotional reactions relating to beauty keep us engaged in life...
So, why do people have such a hard time controlling their emotions?
When somebody pisses you off, that INITIAL spark of anger, where does it come from?
And I don't mean the circuitry you mentioned. That's just the surface layer, the manifest.
And what exactly is an emotion?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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From wikipedia:
"Qualia" (pronounced /ˈkwɑːliə/ or pronounced /ˈkweɪliə/), singular "quale" (pronounced /ˈkwɑːleɪ/, roughly KWAH-leh), from a Latin word meaning for "what sort" or "what kind," is a term used in philosophy to describe the subjective quality of conscious experience. Examples of qualia are the pain of a headache, the taste of wine, or the redness of an evening sky. Daniel Dennett writes that qualia is "an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us."[1]
The importance of qualia in philosophy of mind comes largely from the fact that they are often seen as posing a fundamental problem for materialist explanations of the mind-body problem. Much of the debate over their existence hinges on the definition of the term that is used, as various philosophers emphasize or deny the existence of certain properties. Believers in qualia are known as qualophiles; non-believers as qualophobes.[2]
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pa
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
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Dr. F.
I am not saying anything at all, I am asking...because I don't know.
I notice beauty, intelligence, beings (human or otherwise), language (verbal or otherwise) and wonder...what brings it all together?
What assembles form, what turns random carbon/hydrogen/oxygen molecules into cohesive, individual, "evolved" systems?
What is the force of aggregation and dispersal?
In Chinese medicine they call it Qi. In the religions they call it God. In Science they call it Evolution.
Do those answers satisfy you? I would guess not, given the drift of your posts.
Me either.
Have to go now. Will check in later.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 21, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
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When belief masquerades as reason the debate isn't going anywhere.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 21, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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To answer your question, EVIOLUTION, 4.5 billion years of it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Healyje- Did you see my post? You referenced the Abrahamic narrative the other day, e.g., in regard to promoting "anthropic chauvinism," thought you might have something more to add about belief narratives. For example, if we could do better. I'd be interested in your input.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 21, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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Dr. F., I'm not attacking you, personally, and if it came off like that I apologize. I only binge on this site and just dash stuff off owing to work. But when I hear you claiming to have an open mind, while at the same time insisting that you already and definately KNOW about spiritual matters, I am compelled to comment. For instance, I asked you to posit one, HONEST question about something that you did not know, but very much wanted to know. Your response was:
//I want to know how God created the universe, and how Jesus was born from a virgin mother, and how he was resurrected, and how Jesus talks to Lynne, and another 100,000 souls at the same time.
and how God can keep track of all the possible souls on a planet 100,000 light years from here, and the other 100000 possible planets with life forms
and how he was able to make evolution work, without making it look like he has any effect on it, or did he just create the earth 6,000 years ago, and then put the fossils in the ground as the work of the devil, please tell me about this one Largo, I must find out what the answer is??
So Largo, go ahead and tell me how God did these things??//
Asking you to "ask a question" was a trick question because I knew beforehand what you would do - and of course you did it exactly.
What you have listed above are not "HONEST question(s) about something that you do not know, but very much want to know." You see, Dr. F., you already have the "correct" answer to these "questions" in your head, and you have repeatedly answered these questions with catagorical responses to the effect that anyone believing in such nonsense in a fool and deluded and so forth. So your questions are not questions at all. They are set-ups to summon responses that you can shoot down according to your beliefs, which you believe are not beliefs at all, rather they are plain facts, and you're daring anyone to argue otherwise. Of course only a fool would enter such an argument.
What's more is that I don't believe that Jesus was born from a virgin mother and yada yada so I have nothing invested in proving this is so or is not so. What does a virgin birth, or not, have to do with my life, right this second? Nothing.
With these questions, you are arguing against a "God" that I don't subscribe to in any form whatsoever. My sense of where you are stuck, and where your mind is not as open as it might be, is in considering "God" in other terms than the Old Testament model. My feel of it here is that you are something of a fanatic about the Old testament God, meaning that "you won't change your mind and you won't change the subject" per "God."
God either is exactly how the Old Testament or there is no God at all. Can you see the all-or-nothing thinking here? Is it possible for you to imagine some other "God" beside the one you are certain is jibberish? Like they say in the recovery movement, if your God is not working, design another one. And no, this does NOT (imo) mean that you are "creating" God by trying to imagine Him/Her according to your own understanding.
Back to work. I'll try and answer John Standards question later.
JL
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jun 21, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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Largo, that was a great reply. I hope the Good Dr. F responds after thinking about what you said. It would be nice to see more of those around here. I'd really like to jump into this right now, but I'd like to go back and read a couple hundred posts. This discussion fascinates me.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
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Tony Bird. My goal is to respect all human beings and what they believe. I merely share my own beliefs as do others here on ST.
Everything you talk about in your last post to lynnie is incorrect and erroneous. Please never put your words in other peoples mouths or try and interprete how they think, act or feel or what their particular life experience is. I stated the facts of lynnes life. Let them stand as they are. :D Peace from lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 04:46pm PT
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pa:
The question what makes all this happen or who is doing it is very interesting. For some of the phenomena in question the answer is relatively simple.
Chemistry.
I think we all are familiar with how the processes of meosis and mitosis proceed naturally in biological systems. The physical pairing/separation of appropriate chromosomes takes place almost as a form of self-assembly – simply because of the chemistry amidst the assembled components.
The question of how it is these components came to be together appears to be – by accident. Over billions of years the successful accidents have accumulated and changed. One model has it that clay and the silicon-oxide bond formed an environment catalyzing the formation of the very first structures of carbon,hydrogen, and oxygen in a way eerily similar to our use of silicon microchips in the laboratory over just the last few years to perform DNA and other biological assays.
I think it interesting to consider that the exploratory processes leading to first life billions of years ago, may still be taking place daily now. Changes in the atmosphere’s makeup such as the increased oxygen content may make it more difficult
but the fundamental mechanisms and materials are all still here.
The following link is to a DARPA study proposing that we can use chemistry in a similar fashion to create nano-scale structures other than those serving biological purposes. The link and the introduction.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA243530&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
'Molecular self-'assembly is the spontaneous association of molecules under equilibrium conditions into stable, structurally well-defined aggregates Joined by non-covalent bonds. Molecular self-assembly is ubiquitous in biological systems, and underlies the formation of a wide variety of complex biological structures. Understanding self-assembly and the associated non-covalent
interactions that connect complementary interacting molecular surfaces in biological aggregates Is a central concern in structural biochemistry. Self- assembly is also emerging as a new strategy in chemical synthesis, with the potential of generating non-biological structures having dimensions of 1-102 nanometers (with molecular weights of i0,4-10]0 Daltons)> Structures in the upper part of this range--of--s-izes .are-.presintly inaccessible through chemical
synthesis, and the ability to prepare them would open a route to structures comparable in size (and perhaps complementary in function) to those that can be prepared by microlithography and other techniques of microfabrication.
Edit:
JL's post raises a point I think is critical. I and others have been unafraid to show our skepticism regarding numerous unsupported claims being made. So much unfounded material has received uncritical adherence the atmosphere has frankly become toxic. It feels like one is talking to a machine. What is needed is for people publicly to point out those portions of the popular boiler plate they find implausible.
John has done this and it is a relief to know one is not, after all, talking to the hand.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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no, lynne, you decided to save my soul due to something i said way back up the thread. you've got jesus there as your best friend in the whole world, and i would never intrude in such a relationship, but i think he's also telling you, go pick on tony. i know jesus too. we aren't friends, and he can be this way. so i have to make up a story about kanchenjunga, illusion dweller, and the beetlejuice used car dealership. hey, what the heaven, we're having fun. you're also keeping me off the 9/11 sauce, which i'm sure certain others appreciate.
:-D
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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let's gang up on largo here and see if we can flush a rabbit out of the bushes.
largo is a "process" theologian. this bunk was made up by an english academic named alfred north whitehead to try to salvage mainstream anglicanism in places like oxford and cambridge, trick it out in effete mumbo-jumbo, and feed it to hardworking church pastors just trying to make a living the way they did when charles dickens wrote a lot more interesting things.
if you want to know what process theology is about, you'll find it in old fart carl rogers' book on touchy-feely psychotherapy called "on becoming a person". now even god gets to become a person. god "isn't", god "becomes".
we have a little doo in the san fernando valley for stuff like this. the vals hold one hand in a fist, let it dangle from the wrist, then turn it inward and beat their sternums with it rapidly, while chanting, "big wow".
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 21, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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Dr F you believe there is no god. But you don't know. If you reject any possibilty of god your mind is closed. I'm 99.9% sure there's no anthropomorphic god but I can't prove it
so I allow that it's a possibilty.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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Tony Bird....regarding Largo
I am a great believer in Not putting labels on people or their beliefs. When people are labeled into neat little catagories I feel you:
1) diminish the individual
2) make the Labeler appear to be better than the other human they are putting into the labeler's own neat little box
I have read many of Largo's Threads and Posts on a variety of topics. My take is that he is an explorer of ideas and life. It's great we have so many "takes" on ST. It makes me think and rethink all I deem real and hold dear. It's a process like skimming the foam off the jars of fresh jam you've taken an awful lot of time to make thus creating the very best you can. Peace Today....which is the only day we have, lynnie
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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Dr. F " Doth too much protest Methinks." :D William S.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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The link provided leads to information that ardipithecus ramidus(4.4mmybp) was female and only 1.2m high. Females are called "gracile" which means small or lightly built. Lucy's(3.2mmybp) short leg bones unlike those of the present find(3.6mmybp) were quite short. The present male find, sparse though it is, suggests we don't as yet know when we became fully adapted to the erect posture. Prior australopithecus finds typically had robust large toes which argued for bipedal locomotion.
If one has properly developed musculature and goes out walking to see what gait is the most efficient, it becomes clear the large toe reduces energy consumption. Quite simply we need to find more bones from the feet.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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aw, lynne--largo's a big guy. he can take it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:30pm PT
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it also says lucy's great-grandfather was 400,000 years older than she was--that'd make about 100,000 years per generation. maybe god is really australopithecemorphic.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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We will never get a straight answer out of this bird, methinks. But as he is able to turn a phrase with the best of them, all I can say is, "That will do pig."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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Whatever else, it seems pretty clear that Lucy was about half of Largo's height, and about a quarter of his weight.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
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Dr. F: I’m still not sure what your honest question is.
But you did say: “…your belief system is the right one, only you are open minded enough to see the real truth.”
Kindly jot out my beliefs for me, according to what I have written. Ever heard of the word, “projection.”
Now you did say something very interesting: “…believe in the undefined something that is not a thing – God."
Except IMO you have two things worth reconsidering. We’re not talking about a belief in the normal sense of the word, nor are we talking about “God,” for the moment you attach that label, you’ll project all of your ideas on the experience, and the All is not your ideas. You follow. Also notice how your brain is itching to quantify something. No harm in that, but where has it gotten you per spiritual goals save a very pessimistic stance? Perhaps you have run up against the limitation of quantifying. Is there anything beyond quantifying/measuring, or this the only avenue you can imagine worth exploring? That is a crucial point/distinction.
Tony wrote:
Largo is a "process" theologian. this bunk was made up by an english academic named alfred north whitehead to try to salvage mainstream anglicanism in places like oxford and cambridge, trick it out in effete mumbo-jumbo, and feed it to hardworking church pastors just trying to make a living the way they did when charles dickens wrote a lot more interesting things.
Where do you people come up with this shite? I studied Process Philosophy quite a bit because that was the focus where I went to grad school. But I’m not a hard core Whiteheadian, first, because I didn’t do PhD work on him, and second, Whitehead is first and foremost a mathematician and I’m not. But there’s virtually no one in academic philolsophy that would ever call Whitehead “effete,” nor yet claim that a book like “Process and Reality” was written for Anglican preachers. Arguing these points is ludicrous.
More later. I have a deadline. I very much want to address John Satndard’s post.
JL
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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Dr. F your statements are conflicting, do you believe there is any possibility there is a god(s)?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
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i just made it up, john. it was a trick question. but the rabbit is still hiding in the bushes.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 21, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
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This latest fossil find is just one more indicator that human ancestry is complex with many branches and dead ends along the way. The more fossils we find the more this appears to be the case.
The article cited was rather clumsily written, which often happens when scientists try to popularize something for the general public. In this case the author tried to personalize his example and did no one a favor by his g-g-g grandfather analogy to explain a 400,000 year gap?!
Criticizing anthropologists for revising their theories based on new evidence at this stage of our understanding, is a bit like criticizing someone fitting a jigsaw puzzle together for not knowing yet where all the individual pieces go.
Personally, I think our understanding of whether or not there is a God and what that God might be, is currently at about the same level.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 21, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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Actually Largo's reply is straight out of Buddhist history.
The Hindu pantheon at the time Buddha lived was very similar to the Greek and Roman pantheon. After all, Sanskrit is closely related to Greek and Latin as all belong to the same Indo European tribe.
To try to get people away from such anthropomorphic conceptions, Buddha preferred not to specify how many God(s) there were or any specific attributes, a tradition Buddhism has continued.
There are many terms for Ultimate Reality in that religion depending on the sect- Nothingness, Emptiness, Original mind, One mind, No mind, Non Duality, the Cosmic Realm of Dharma, the Cosmic Buddha, the One without a Second, the Great Being of Radiant Bliss, etc. etc.
Buddhists also prefer to be apophatic rather than cathiphatic. They prefer to tell you what Ultimate Reality is not rather than what It is. Hence the phrase describing it as the Unborn, the Undying, the Uncreated, the Unchanging.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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Don't forget anaphatic, hypophatic and hyperphatic. Plus my all-time favorite: diaphatic.
So I'd like to state for the record that I think H. sapiens could do better than the Abrahamic narrative and Western civilization if not the entire world would do itself better to start developing alternative narrative models so at least it has more than one- perhaps centered on three footings: what is, what matters, what works.
A good author in this area who thinks in terms of narrative analysis and development besides Joseph Campbell is a fella named Loyal Rue. You folks should check him out.
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pa
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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Blimey, this is getting better than the theater! People sparring and throwing darts all over the place...
Jstan, thank you for the link and the reminders on how far along chemistry is taking us. You say:
The question of how it is these components come to be together appears to be..by accident.
Hmmm...I have entertained the notion of randomness, at times. But it's not very convincing, is it? The Random Universe of Mathematical Precision...hmmm.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
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The word "accident" can be problematic. Suggestion: Try the word concadent, concadence, instead. Comes from the Latin: together to fall.
So instead of (a) "those arrogant godless scientists want to teach our kids that they're accidents, that we're all accidents, that all life is an accident of the big bang" try (b) "the nice scientists want to teach our kids all life is an evolutionary concadence (or, a concadent development) of the big bang." In an age where delicate wording can be so important, you might get more traction with concadence, concadent, if that matters to you.
Words matter. With the emerging new schools of thought, new language and new framing are emerging, too. I can hardly wait, the sooner the better. I for one am so tired of the "Abrahamic religious slant" that prejudices the English language.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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pa:
http://www.psrast.org/junkdna.htm
Some large portion of our DNA is meaningless "junk". It may have been expressed and have affected the creature(s) before but now is not expressed in any way of which we know. cf link.
At my last reading it was suggested this junk coding may act to prevent mutations from being expressed to the detriment of its owner. Sort of a checksum if you will. When you consider the number of base pairs and the minimal energy barriers preventing miscoding it has to be clear I am the only person whose DNA is a perfect reflection of their parentage. I trust you will not tell anyone but my great great great grandfather was charged with counterfeiting and very nearly hung at the age of eighteen. We are quite proud of that John Stannard as he managed to be interesting. On more practical grounds, I am rather pleased things turned out as they did.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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And for those who want to go really deep "under the hood" regarding DNA and genes, even the DNA's repair enzymes are regulated (a) by epigenesis (the epigenetic environment) and (b) by natural selection. That insight, 20th century discovery, otherwise reality, is very deep, very mysterious, very wonderous. Certainly wowed me when I learned about it in a graduate course in Molecular Biology.
jstan- so you must have a genome with very active, very aggressive repair enzymes.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
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There you go. I prayed pa would not tell anyone else.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
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Jan!
Initially Jan states: "Those who went before their religion(Christianity)was founded, are condemned."
"Those" would be everyone that ever existed!!
And I reply: "Who teaches this........................PATHETIC!
She then refines "THOSE" to: "So your telling me that every HINDU, and BUDDHIST, and NON-HEBREW RELIGION before the birth of Jesus are saved?
That, by the way, is called putting words into YOUR/MY mouth...at about 2:30AM PST furthermore! And I had long since gone to sleep and had a busy day the follwing morning, Sunday...
But today I noticed that our very own once upon a time "Xian" as he refers to himself...kinda more like a 'Latter Day Judas' if you ask me, but an amiable guy no less...rrrADAM, brought it back to my attention.
rrrADAM- "Regarding TripL7...he will not answer you, him and his ilk."
This seems to have further strengthened/confirmed his stance that all Christians("Xians")are no more than poor Ol' Apostle Peter types before the Rooster crowed...Denying, denying ("I,I,D,D")!!
You have our rolls bacwards rrrADAM, your the one Denying...
Well back to the remark Jan made "Your telling me..."
Well, this would go back to the descendants of Noah and his sons which went off into various directions, repopulating the world. They, by the way, brought the story of the flood with them.
The Bible says that "every man is without excuse".
There is available to every man a certain knowledge of God. This knowledge is attainable by observing the handiwork of God in creation.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power, and His divine nature so that they are without excuse, because, although they new God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds, and four footed animals and creeping things."
What man did with what God showed them, only God knows for each idividual. But evidently before the flood, an entire world became evil!
"Gods eternal power and His divine nature"... who can look at the raging power of Niagra Falls, or Yosemite Falls in the springtime and not be struck by the power of the One Who created them. Or look at the power of the atom and not be impressed with the infinite power of the Creator? And who can ponder creation without concluding that someone far superior to man was the originator of it all?
As the Psalmist put it long ago "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork. Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge." Palm 19:1-2
God did not withhold the revelation essential to salvation from anyone. But man chose to not worship the God who created man in His own image, and instead, chose to worship gods made in their image. They chose to worship the creation. They "suppressed the truth". It was not the sparsity of revelation, it was the suppression of it.
That very "revelation" of Gods power in the universe lead to these conclusions:
Dr. Louis Pasteur concurred "Just because I reflected I remained a believer."
Dr. A. Nuremberg said "God is the cause of all things, and whoever thinks in the terms of cause and effect, thinks in the terms of God."
Dr. Horstmann testified "My scientific conscious forbids me not to believe in God."
Even an unbeliever like Voltaire confessed "I do not know what to think of the world, but I cannot believe this clock exists without a clockmaker."
Jan, to answer your question thoroughly would be beyond my available time and experience, but take for instance the reference to Rahab the Harlot in Hebrews 11:31 "By faith Rahab the Harlot did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace."
Rahab was not a Hebrew, she was a Canaanite pagan whore...but she somehow came to faith in God as He had revealed His eternal power and divine nature to her...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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I will die by stoning.
I admit it, back before I was married, I once looked at a woman with "lust".
Therefore, according to Trip, and Gobby, and rest of the literal biblicists,
I have committed the sin of ADULTERY.
Also, two weeks ago I saw a woman beat her dog.
I was consumed with ANGER.
And so, again, I have committed a major sin, this time of MURDER.
That's right folks, Trip says Matthew says, that Jesus said, that I, Norton,
am guilty of the sins of ADULTERY and MURDER.
Now, what do you think the bible says should happen to me.
You guessed it, STONED TO DEATH.
And to think that ADULTS right now in 2010 actually believe this crap.
Kiss my white pagan ass.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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How old is the earth, Gobby?
Tell us right now because you have NEVER answered this question.
Tell us right now that El Cap and Half Dome were instantly CREATED 6000 years ago.
How old is the earth, Gobby?
Hint, don't let anyone else answer FOR YOU. Trip is not allowed to speak for you.
Be a man, Gobee.
You can do it, yourself, right now. Tell us.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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It's interesting reading.... all these posts about the many forms of philosophic and religious thought (or not). The one thing that I don't read or hear much along with this is how these beliefs intimately and ultimately affect the posters day to day living (for good) their own lives and helping those around them.
Few tell stories of how their beliefs specifically play into how they live their moments of life in the daily day as they live one day at a time on this planet. I read alot of textbook stuff but not much practical application in a personal way. Just my take.... lynnie
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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Norton- You esp would enjoy Agora, new film (starring Rachael Weisz as Hypatia) having to live amongst Jews, Christians, Pagans. Check it out. You probably know already who burned the great Library.
Oh, the film wasn't accepted on the U.S theater circuit. (Why? Hint: Too many Bluerings, Go-Bs, Trips, IDs, Fredricks, etc.) But was very popular in the more liberated Europe. But no worries there are other means of getting a hold of it.
EDIT 6:08p Norton- Very!
Lynnie wrote-
The one thing that I don't read or hear much along with this is how these beliefs intimately and ultimately affect the posters day to day living (for good) their own lives and helping those around them.
Few tell stories of how their beliefs specifically play into how they live their moments of life in the daily day as they live one day at a time on this planet. I read alot of textbook stuff but not much practical application in a personal way.
I loved this post, an excellent reflection. It is definitely an area that needs attention.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Fructose, Is Rachael hot?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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We’re not talking about a belief in the normal sense of the word, nor are we talking about “God,” for the moment you attach that label, you’ll project all of your ideas on the experience, and the All is not your ideas. You follow.
Ya I follow, more BS to allow the unexplainable mumbo jumbo
-----
I think the frustration inherent in the above pretty much underscores the limitations of quantifying.
It is the promise or hope of science that physical reality is knowable and to an ever widening degree, it is explainable and predictable as well. Perhaps not in any absolute sense, owing to random and chaotic and other factors, but we all understand the basic principal. What you see above, is how the evaluating mind revolts or recoils with that which might possibly fall out of the purview of pure matter or forward causation. I mention forward causation because even the most hard core materialist has to
concede the existence of qualia, a philosophy of mind term to describe the subjective quality of conscious experience. Nobody with working facilities will insist that subjective experience is the selfsame thing as material, but forward causation models allow us to postulate that qualia is sourced from or is "caused" by material, namely, our evolved brain.
The fact is, we cannot quantify qualia itself as we quantify a stack of marbles or an event horizon. Even a staunch critic of qualia modeling, Daniel Dennett, admits that qualia is "an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us."
The great limitation to Dennett's and others definition of qualia is in limiting it to strictly subjective experience - to feelings, sensations, and so forth. More on that later.
Anyway, I use qualia as just an example of something we all know better than matter itself, but which is not measurable in the normal sense. Now this is just a baby step, but insofar that we cannot quantify qualia like we can matter, does it atomatically follow that qualia is "more BS," "unexplainable," and "mumbo jumbo."
No, I'm NOT sang qualia is God. Not at all. This is simply a thought experiment.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 21, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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So, Largo, would you be open to distinguishing / defining a few "god concepts" -just a few- so we could talk about them with a little more depth, meaning?
Norton- Very!
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pa
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Jstan, from your link:
The sequence of syllables is not random at all and has a striking resemblance with the structure of human language.
Food for thought indeed.
Also, did you encode your prayer in the Junk DNA...'cause if you didn't, your prayer will not be answered.
HFCS, yes, "cadere" does mean to fall and "cadentia"is synonymous of the word "chance", as in "let the chips fall where they may".
But you are still talking about chance beginnings to "not random at all" manifestations.
I still ask: How do you start with chance and end up with order?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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"How do you start with chance and end up with order? "
May I take a cut at this?
What do you really mean by "order?" If by order you mean something in this world with which you are familiar, then
you will always end up
with order.
If we assume Darwin was on to something and if we assume flight would have had great survival value for pigs, then every day you would be seeing pigs that fly and, to you,
pigs that fly would represent order.
Dinosaurs did learn to fly
after all.
You see them every day without a
second thought.
Joe:
Have tried it before. Has not worked for me yet. The quote delimiters don't show up.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 21, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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First and foremost I wanted to recommend you folks to consider using the forum editor's quote capability. When in the post editor there is a menu bar at the top left of the editor's main textbox. The 4th button from the left is labeled with a double quote - that's the quote function - click it and paste a quote from someone else in between the quote delimiters which appear to create a quote box. This by itself would help the conversation immensely.
As for contributing, I've been in all day vendor meetings for a major RFP and will be again tomorrow so I have limited ability to follow along.
But, despite Largo's prejudice against your basic 'god' and attempts to frame this as something other than religion, I think we've pretty conclusively shown this is in fact a religious discussion given everyone involved is projecting belief onto the current unknown of from 'where' or by what means do 'thoughts' and perceptions arise.
First and foremost I'm all about acknowledging when something is unknown and honoring that by not projecting comforting speculation on to it and calling that a 'fact' (pretty much the whole of the history of religion). After that I am up for speculating so long as everyone concerned is willing to accept that is what's going on. From that perspective all ancient and modern fables from all points and times in human existence which purport to know 'the way' or 'the answers' are just that regardless of the human[s] who claimed to be gifted by [the] god[s] as the one 'annointed' to carry the message to humanity. All human religions throughout history are equal in their fabrication of comfort for very real human fears (more qualia).
And I don't know how many of you have any mental health background or experience, but it should be noted that the first miracle of being human is the miracle that we all share a very similar mental/emotional profile that defines what being human is. If you've been involved with various mental illnesses at all then you understand just what a miracle it is that we are all operating on more or less the same 'plane of existence' and can communicate with each other at all.
This also speaks to the chemical origins of 'thought' and the qualia you meditators perceive as the capabilities, perceptions, and benefits of your practice. Give me those humans with the most experience meditating from around the world and I can remove that capability and experience in between 14 and 21 days with a course of Nardil in the manic direction or one of haldol, stelazine, and thorazine in the zombie direction. There is no one who would be 'meditating' by the the 21st day no matter who they are or how many lifetimes of meditation they've experienced. The mental and emotional state you call 'living' is an incredibly fragile thing and is wholly dependent on your having a 'normal' and 'stable' neurochemical 'profile'.
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pa
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:09pm PT
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Jstan, clarification is in order...pun intended.
By "order" I was referring to the marvelous one described by the sciences: the spin of electrons, say, or the regulation of insulin release, or fractals, or the table of elements...and such.
See if that helps...and I am not expecting answers, you know that, I am just interested in other peoples take on the matter.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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At least now we know what he looks like....
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jstan
climber
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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At the risk of talking too much, the regulation of insulin release is now in a state of great disorder. When the body's present processes were being evolved processed sugars did not exist. Now, thanks to Earl Butz's effort to reduce the cost of calories in the US people are assaulting themselves with HFCS in quantities our bodies cannot handle. American's increasingly waddle instead of walking.
A link:
A 1991 study stated that the number of Americans with diabetes would double, from 6.5 million in 1987 to 11.6 million by 2030, which, as it turns out, is less than half the number of cases in 2009. "These projections stress the importance of prevention and education," the authors declare. "The requisite change in life style, exercise, or nutrition habits will be more difficult than if a drug is developed for treatment."
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/172356.php
Edit:
pa:
I know the door is open. But I think order is an important property in everyone's mind. So I am trying to speak to that generally.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 21, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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Norton- "Also, two weeks ago, I saw a women beat her dog and I was consumed
with ANGER. And so, again, I have committed a major sin, this time MURDER."
Norton, you already told us about that a few days ago!
And I responded with:
"Norton, you had cause to be angry at the women who beat her dog. It would be tantamount to Jesus' righteous anger at the money changers(who were cheating and inflating costs etc.)in the Temple."
Your cool with JESUS in regards to that one little buddy!
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pa
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Thanks Jstan, but you are knocking on an open door, as we say back home. Worked ER and ICU for 20+ years. I am well aware of how many different ways we can (and do) screw up the "order" of our bodies.
What is your point?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:04am PT
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”Norton- You esp would enjoy Agora, new film (starring Rachael Weisz as Hypatia) having to live amongst Jews, Christians, Pagans. Check it out. You probably know already who burned the great Library.”
“Oh, the film wasn't accepted on the U.S theater circuit. (Why? Hint: Too many Bluerings, Go-Bs, Trips, IDs, Fredricks, etc.) But was very popular in the more liberated Europe. But no worries there are other means of getting a hold of it.”
Agora is …certainly enertainment…and the fact it’s not 100% history may not bother liberated Europeans. The Great Library of Alexandria, of course, was burned, by Ceasar, during his visit to Alexandria in 48 BC. Plutarch and several other historians in the first and second century AD suggest the Great Library was a thing of the past.
In 391, Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all "pagan" (non-Christian) temples and Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria and his mobs destroyed the Serapeum on the former site of the Great Library. The Serapeum being a temple for worship of the god Mithras and ritual shedding of animal blood.
The historian Ammianus Marcellinus claims whatever books might have been in the Serapeum earlier, none were there at the last of the fourth century. If there were any significant numbers of books therein , the collection was nothing approaching the Great Library before it’s destruction in 48 BC. Socrates Scholasticus, makes no clear reference to scrolls or codex being lost, only to religious objects being destroyed. Eunapius of Sardis witnessed the temple being destroyed, his account of the Serapeum's destruction makes no mention of any library.
There is really no evidence, in historical texts or archaeologically, of a Christian destruction of any “great library” in Alexandria.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:57am PT
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HF wrote: "So, Largo, would you be open to distinguishing / defining a few "god concepts" -just a few- so we could talk about them with a little more depth, meaning?"
Sure, but I'm tired so just a few thoughts. I've been trying to warm up to this for a few weeks now.
First, in my experience, I've found that you have to romance the whole spiritual thing inasmuch as I can't impose the criteria on the process and expect "God" to conform to or meet that criteria (any more than i can tell a girl how to behave and expect to ever strike up the band).
The old saw that you must die to yourself to find yourself speaks to this.
Also, humility is a huge one. If you're trying to find a power greater than yourself, it won't help much by letting fly a self with a bunch of demands that, if not met perfectly, starts yelling bullshit and so forth. What's more, you have to know that going in, the evaluating mind will probably hold you back if you let that part of your software direct the proceedings.
Again, another old saw, that you cannot think your way to heaven, is appropriate to consider.
Your evaluating mind will certainly grind over whatever experiences you have, but you cannot expect that mind to "source" the experiences themselves.
Lastly, it helps to start with the idea that you're not, at least initially, moving toward some "thing" called God, but am opening yourself up to experience a paradox, the direct experience of which will almost certainly be limited by trying to grasp "it," reason "it" out, or assigning the process to merely believing or making a leap of faith. So the first thing, paradoxically, is to not consciously look for, or try discover ANYTHING.
Now almost immediately the mind will start making demands and crying foul because the evaluating mind has no capacity to generate "being" energy and doesn't know what to do if it isn't evaluating and grinding on something. So expect that part of your mind to start yelling what a wast of time it all is etc.
The idea or metaphor of container space is particularly helpful here, whereas all the content, including the crazy and impatient judgements about your experience, can be seen as so much white noise.
So that's the start. Maybe spend just five minutes with your eyes open and suspend all effort to go anywhere and do anything or find anything. Astonishingly, a lot of people have never done this their entire life.
More later.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:19am PT
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TripL7
You did not address my question at all.I don't doubt that every normally functioning person on the planet has the opportunity to think about the mystery and beauty of life. If those who were/are grateful and believe in some form of God are ok in the greater scheme of eternity, as you seem to be suggesting, that would be good news indeed.
However, the example you gave of Rahab has nothing to do with God and everything to do with supporting the Jews in a military campaign. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahab
Jews are very interesting people with a remarkable history, but they are not God, so I fail to see the connection?!
As to why contemporary Hindus and Buddhists and people with no religion might or might not also be acceptable to God was mentioned, is because the fundamentalist Christian condemnation of those people for not being believers creates the impression that fundamentalists believe all people who were/are not Jews or Christians were/are doomed. Hence Anders and many others I'm sure, got that impression.
Meanwhile the question remains. Do you think that people of good will and good behavior who belong to religions other than fundamental Christianity, living since the time of Jesus, are acceptable to God or not, particularly if they've never even heard of Jesus?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:24am PT
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And if they're not acceptable to god, why not?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:42am PT
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Good idea JL:
So that's the start. Maybe spend just five minutes with your eyes open and suspend all effort to go anywhere and do anything or find anything. Astonishingly, a lot of people have never done this their entire life.
I tried to express a point of view on this topic in my earlier post regarding fish arguing about the nature of water...that little discourse seems to have been water running off ducks backs...
When I teach students how to read tracks in the woods, they first have to learn to keep their minds quiet so as to be aware of what is there. Words and music in their heads get in the way of seeing the tracks.
It also works for climbing...
And it worked for Christ in the desert. IMHO he would not be at all impressed by all the churches and writings and discussions ostensibly carried out in his name.
I'd rather not appear any dumber than my natural attributes, but language is a particularly inappropriate tool for understanding this general topic.
This seems to have become a brilliant exercise in intelligent discourse, while also being particularly unimpressive in demonstrating understanding of the title topic. It is absolutely amazing the things that people are willing to believe in order to fill in the mysteries of the gaps in their awareness and understanding.
A better method is to quiet the mind and expand awareness. This is made particularly difficult by all the pain and pollution and noise in our society. That is a major attraction to wilderness.
We have very much to learn. Chattering is an interesting way of exploring ground that is already explored. The domain of the chatter also nicely maps out the limits of our understanding, if you can step back and look at it from a quiet space.
Awareness is a precursor to capturing knowledge into language. Language lacks words for observing and capturing some sorts of knowledge domains. It is just not the appropriate tool for capturing all knowledge, however iconoclastic that may appear in the halls of academia.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:07am PT
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Awareness is a precursor to capturing knowledge into language. Language lacks words for observing and capturing some sorts of knowledge domains. It is just not the appropriate tool for capturing all knowledge, however iconoclastic that may appear in the halls of academia.
That has been one of my major points here however inadequately expressed. The artist who puts something on canvass that moves others emotionally is not using the same sort of knowledge as the art critic who then discusses the painting in words.
Beyond that, the very language we use determines the organization of our brains, something very obvious to those of us who have struggled with non European languages like Tibetan and Japanese. A language that can make a sentence like Ma ma ma ma? mean why is the woman beating the horse with a rope? is not a language that can manipulate intricate ideas in the style we've seen here. It can however express puns, poetry, and word jokes far better. It also encourages intuition and musical ability.Hence 30% of Chinese have perfect pitch.
One of the biggest challenges facing inhabitants of the modern West in my view, is the attitude by the word experts that their type of knowledge is always superior. The very question, is it logical to believe in God? is such an example, assuming as it does, that logic is the highest form of knowledge.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:40am PT
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...If you're trying to find a power greater than yourself...
Largo, it's good to finally see something tangible and explicit about what you really want to discuss for a change. I'm fine talking about most anything once I know what's really on someone's mind.
Seems to me you might have gotten things off the ground a little smoother if you had simply stated upfront that you believe there are [objective] "powers" which exist separate from and beyond 'normal' human experience. Then a discussion could have easily followed about how one can or does experience, perceive, embrace, and integrate such "powers" into their life. Still not sure what the intent of, or need for, all the artful beating around the bush was about.
I can only guess you were attempting to separate that conversation from your typical god-talk, but as we're seeing that's a pretty tall order at the taco stand.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 05:26am PT
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Jan!
Anyone that has not heard of Jesus could not ask Him into their heart, or worship Him as God!
So they would not be judged on that basis, or held accountable in that way.
But God does reveal Him self like it describes in Romans. And that is how He would judge them. If they chose to set up idols of clay or wood, of calves or snakes etc. Or worshiped other men, or individuals from the past, or ancestors etc., then that is what it was saying in Romans. They would be worshiping the creation, not the Creator.
God is a just and righteous God. He has treated all of His creation fairly from the beginning of time. Loved them just as much as He loves you and me.
The three wise men(magi)from the East, were not of Hebrew descent, and they were considered holy. As was the King of Salem. Those are just a couple of examples.
As far as Rahab is concerned, she must have contemplated the true nature of God in her heart by the evidence she saw in creation etc., long before they(Jericho)were surrounded and captured.
There are many other examples, like the lady at the well(Samaritan woman)and the Ethiopian eunuch.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 05:41am PT
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Mighty Hiker- "And if they are not acceptable to god, why not?"
Well, if they have chose to not believe that Jesus is the ONE true God, and choose to put Him on the same level/plane as Mohammad, or Allah, or Buddha etc. then they have rejected His lordship in their lives.
He is a "jealous God"! And desires to be worshiped and known as the One and only God.
He will make this evident in your heart if you allow Him to.
It's late and I am tired...sorry!
Goodnight!
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:04am PT
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rrradam, i'm not going to look through your threads any more than you're going to look through mine or read all the books i've read or talk to all the experts i have questioned on this personally face-to-face. but i will read everything you have to post here. it's up to you to make it cogent.
so, dealing in the trivia you're citing here: building 7 wasn't hit by an airliner. airliners don't "knock" fireproofing off steel beams everywhere in a building. i doubt fireproofing gets knocked off at all, and big steel girders don't really need it anyway. jet fuel, which is essentially kerosene, doesn't burn hot enough to affect building steel significantly without sophisticated carburetion, as in a jet engine. the fires in the wtc were turning black, indicating oxygen depletion, as anyone would expect inside the confinements of a building. when that happens it means that the fires were getting cooler. even if the steel were weakened to the point of bending, things would sag and totter, not come down in rapid floor-by-floor blasts as could only happen with controlled floor-by-floor demolition. look at the videos. stop your own ignoring and denying.
You are wrong, on many points...
1. HOW is the fire going to be O2 depleted when the WTC was in essence a big open frame of steel beams and "windows", which were broken en masse on or near the floors where the fire was? Not to mention that there are more winds up there to 'fan the flames'? Ever see those BBQ briquette startes that are cylinders with holes in them you stuff newspapers into?
2. "You do 'think' a plane will knock off fireproofing..."? What makes you think that? It isn't sticky, soft and gooey... It is hard. What do you think would happen if you sprayed a thin layer of concrete on an I-Beam and then shocked that I-Beam? And it doesn't take "everywhere in a building..." All it takes is enough to weaken the structure. You aren't an engineer, are you?
More on 'fire proofing'... That's actually NOT the best term for the material, as it can't be made 'fire proof'. Out here at the nukes, we have 'fire proofing' as well, and I have to inspect it. The various types are rated in hours of protection (E.g., 2 hours, 3 hours 5 hours), as that is the time that the part will be protected until the 'fire proofing' fails. It gives the time to extinguish the fire before a critical system or componant fails. So... If that 'protection' is knocked off, even just a bit, that section isn't protected, and how long did the fires burn?
It IS this stuff, the details, that you are ignoring or dismissing my frind.
3. Again... The heat softened the metal to the point that it couldn't support the weight of ALL the weight above it. You tell me... How would you suppose it would fail if it gave way slowly until it couldn;t hold the weight? "Slowly... All the way to the ground"? "Slowly and gently until it rested on the next floor whick would hold it up?"
Let me put it this way, Tony...
What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong?
I mean no offense, but...
Like a Fundy, the answer is "nothing", isn't it?
Again... Everything you are posting has been thoroughly debunked and/or addressed, much of it in the thread I posted. Even bios on many of the founders of various '9/11 Truth' organizations, implying an egenda long before 9/11. Despite that, or ignoring that, you continue to cling to it. You cannot show someone who does not care to understand, as it is impossible to graft a new idea onto a closed mind. You have no new info for me, as EVERYTHING you have posted, and suggested thus far, I am familiar with. That's like a Xian telling me to read the Bible, then I will understand... I have read it my friend. Like Fundies, God/"9/11 Truth" hides in the gaps of knowledge (real, manufactured, or willful), and even as we close the gaps, many refuse to accept any of it to leave room for God/"9/11 Truth".
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:25am PT
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Norton- You esp would enjoy Agora, new film (starring Rachael Weisz as Hypatia) having to live amongst Jews, Christians, Pagans. Check it out. You probably know already who burned the great Library.
Oh, the film wasn't accepted on the U.S theater circuit. (Why? Hint: Too many Bluerings, Go-Bs, Trips, IDs, Fredricks, etc.) But was very popular in the more liberated Europe. But no worries there are other means of getting a hold of it.
"Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing."
~Hypatia of Alexandria (~400 CE)
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:47am PT
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He is a "jealous God"! And desires to be worshiped and known as the One and only God. "Jealousy"... God is "all that is 'GOOD', huh?" Never knew jealousy was a 'good' trait.
I've asked countless questions, trip, and you haven't answered any, so since it appears you trying to address some... Let's see if you will address these simple direct questions:
1. Do you believe that when your soul goes to Heaven you will keep all of of your memories and life experiences with you, similar to your waking conciousness?
2. If so, what would the memories, life experiences, and conciousness consist of in an infant's soul, or even the soul of a fetus who never was even born? (The infant and/or fetus died)
3. Regarding the above questions, and even your recent answers regarding the disposition/judgement of souls for those who never had the chance to know Jesus... WHERE are you getting your information? Specifically: Chapter and verse please, or name of the person who told you.
4. You wrote:...Jesus is the ONE true God... Who did Jesus fall prostrate to an pray all during his life, and to whom did he pray and cry out to while he was on the cross?
5. How do you account for all the other pagan deities popular long before and during the time of Jesus that share so many details with him? (E.g., Dionysus, Mithras, Attis, Horus, Apollo, etc...) Many of them were 'born of a virgin', 'resurrected' (even after 3 days), 'turned water into wine', 'walked on water', 'raised ther dead', and some were even called: 'redeemer', 'the light of the world', 'the shepard', etc...
(Note - This also provides the answer that you failed to get days ago about the relationship between Jesus and Sunday... As most of the above Gods were "solar deities" (Sun Gods), and what day of the week do you suppose one would worship 'Sun' Gods?)
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:41am PT
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Not to mention all the fire fighters that swear they heard a series of explosions, and then later were given orders not to discuss that ever again.
Please cite a firefighter that has said that he heard explosions and was told to never discuss it again.
And the Pentagon is a 'hardened structure' compared to the WTC, with much less open surfece area (broken windows) to allow for as hot of a fire, so you are mixing not even apples and oranges, but apples and tires.
Again... With any conspiracy, it only takes one for it to all come down...
Kennedy, Moon Landing, Pearl Harbor, Rosswell, Space ships on the far side of the moon, 9/11...
Find that one "proof". "Questions and inconsistancies (many manufactured)" aren't proof... If real, they only point to a gap in knowledge.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
~Carl Sagan
How about just some 'solid' evidence at least?
So you have to look at it logically. No steel building has ever fallen from a fire before or after this day. This has already been addressed in my previous post, yet you are ignoring it.
Here... Since a picture is worth a thousand words, maybe a video is worth ten thousand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MRSr1MnFuk&feature=player_embedded
It's of other steel structures and buildings collapsing from fire alone, so that claim "no other..." IS FALSE!
Note that this was made before the Gulf Horizon that just burned, collapsed and sank. Do you suppose that was made of plastic?
Pay attention to the last slide:Therefore, it can be said that 100% of all steel-framed skyscrapers with unprotected steel that have been subjected to fire for prolonged periods have collapsed.
But you'll still keep saying it, huh?
re: pancake, and falling straight down...
I'll take it you are a climber, so...
Let's say you have placed a piece that will hold little more than body weight (we'll even say it's over-engineered [buildings are over-engineered], and it will hold 3 X your BW). Then you fall on it from 10' above, will it hold? Now, if all other pieces will hold similar weight, will you pull all the pieces all the way down?
And steel framed buildings are not designed with each floor below made to hold more weight... That's the way that old masonry and concrete buildings were designed, which is why they were bigger at the base, and had a theoretical hieght limit du to the base being so big that there was no usable space at the bottom. Steel did away with that.
And, the WTC was not designed to be hit by a plane of that size (mass, fuel load), traveling at that speed (inertial energy).
So, it appears that you don't really understand the physics of any of this.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 09:36am PT
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you know, i had a pretty good reply written up for rrrad, and along comes jolly roger, taking most of the words out of my mouth.
i had this same experience on a jobsite about four years ago. you don't broach this subject easily among your average bunch of carpenters and tradesmen. then i found the fella i'd been working alongside for a month knew all about it. what put him onto it? he was living in seattle when they made a public event of the controlled demolition of an old stadium. same stuff going on.
yes, we can always member-to-member and leave this thread to the philorelgio, but as gnarlydude climbers and citizens of a nation and a world, i don't think it's entirely out of place. two of david ray griffin's titles, which i think pertain to this crowd especially: "christian faith and the truth behind 9/11: a call to reflection and action", and "debunking 9/11 debunking".
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 09:52am PT
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another jobsite experience. think of it in the context of "from the mouths of babes":
it was the anniversary of 9/11 a couple years ago. most of us in the truth movement are pretty sensitized on that day. so i'm talking a little with a stucco laborer from mexico.
"do you really know what happened on that day? do you think arabs did it?"
"no. government did it."
"how do you know?"
"airplanes can't bring down buildings. airplanes are light."
foreigners don't have the emotional investment in this that americans have. virtually all of italy is quite cool on the subject, in a cool way. former president francesco cossiga disclosed in a national interview a couple years ago that most intelligence agencies around the world understand that 9/11 was an inside job. said my tuscan cousin: "if cossiga said so, then i believe it. he was a totally honest president."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 22, 2010 - 10:25am PT
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Again, please take the 9/11 talk to another thread - this isn't the place for it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 10:57am PT
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rrrADAM- "Never new jealousy was a good trait."
"You shall not make for yourself an idol...You shall not worship them or serve them; For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:4-5
The root idea in the O.T. word jealous is to become intensely red. The changing color of the face which are associated with intense zeal or fervor over something which is dear to us. Both the Old and the New Testament words for jealous are also translated as "zeal".
Being jealous and being zealous are essentially the same thing in the Bible. God is zealous-eager about protecting what is precious to Him.
I consider this a "good trait" when it is applied in this context.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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Ummm... Are you gonna answer my simple direct questions? You jealous zealous man.
I even numbered them for you... So you can number your answers.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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i sent an email to rrradam to that effect, healyje, but i haven't heard back from him yet.
as i said a couple posts ago, i don't think it's entirely out of place here, especially from the point of view of mythic thinking. somehow we all seem to think in myths, no matter how logical we try to be. academics are especially good at this. they'll come up with a word like "qualia" and start bandying it about as if it's the answer to everything.
is truth itself a myth? would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
let's just suppose i'm wrong about 9/11. i'm a fairly smart guy and i've spent lots of mental and emotional energy on this for six years now. david ray griffin, largo's former philosophy professor, has done the same. half the world is telling us we're over the left field fence, the other half comes into our camp and starts agreeing with us. if you're going to nail down god, especially a jealous god, and consciousness the way you guys are trying to do, you might find yourselves drowning in a similar niagara.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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rrrA- "1&2".
1). Yes!
2). God has a perfect plan for everyone of His creation. The unborn "fetus'" soul will be present with God as a fully developed spirit, aware of all that the good Lord feels is necessary for it to be aware of. (my opinion).
Aware of Gods love and the incredible love and peace and bliss that is Paradise. That is, union with Christs Spirit.
I don't know what anyone thinks or say's. The Bible describes it as a "sleep" or "rest". Time probably doesn't exist, it is most likely the intense/bliss of the perfect NOW...as in "I could be like this for eternity and not want anything else".
When Jesus returns with His saints at the Second Coming, the infant or fetus will have a new, fully grown spiritual body, "and thus forever be with the Lord."
So, some of this is in the Bible, other is speculation on my part. I am not particularlly concerned about the particulars, we are not told, or meant to know ALL of the mystery's. And I am not a pastor, or Bible scholar...
These questions are of minimal concern to me. What is important is the available presence and relationship that I have NOW with God.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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Hey guys
Why don't you all start a new 911 thread where we can all kill each other in it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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if anyone needs a carpenter or an uncertified climbing guide, i'm available today. otherwise i'll be an idle drone, tapping keys, working on the yard.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:29am PT
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been thinking of doing that, werner. will you bring your weapons?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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Thanks for the reply in regard to "distinguishing" god concepts.
Well, no one mentioned it (I guess it's drawing distinction from another perspective) but it is useful to distinguish between Jehovah (the higher power of Jews, Muslims and Christians) and Diacrates (the hypothetical higher power or higher intelligence philosophers, scientists, et al like to discuss as a possibility). It gives some traction to the thinking.
Also, it is useful to distinguish between monotheism and polytheism (two more "god concepts") and then ask is one really any more intellectually mature than the other as generations of Christians, for e.g., were taught.
In the movie Agora, you'll see a good portrayal of how thoughlessness leads to recklessness and how the beautiful Hypatia was set upon by Christians obedient to their God Jehovah, who felt they were doing God's work. Poor Hypatia. (The fate of the Library of Alexandria was discussed pretty thoroughly on another thread.)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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tripl, you just might be a prophet yourself. they'll be quoting tripl 3:16-21 a hundred years from now. keep making it up!
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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Out of respect for this thread, and people who don't wish to see this banal discussion, this'll be my last reply regarding "9/11 Truthers"...
After replying earlier, I asked a colleague here at work who was a demolitions expert in the Army, and he's pretty anti-government, if he thought there was any chance that the WTCs were brought down by explosives. He looked at me like I had a d|ck growing out of my forehead and said, "Hell no! Look at the videos... It was structural failure brought on by the fire. Anybody, like Rosie O'Donnel, that thinks otherwise is insane! Now the Oklahoma Federal building is another story all together..."
Note - There can be smart people who are insane, so even if a PhD wants to lend his name to it, still doesn't make it so. Remember, Francis Collins (Human Genome project), is a Fundy who denies evolution, and that doesn't make it so. Like him, Fundies and "Truthers" are in a fringe minority for a reason. And ALL are convinced that they are right, and everybody else is wrong, even though they cannot come up with an even remotely reasonable alternative. (E.g., "God did it" / real planes switched with remote control planes [air traffic controllers and the Air Force gotta be in on this one], vanishing passengers [murdered by the Gubment?], thousands of people sworn to secrecy... c'mon.)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:35am PT
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WB!
If I worked in a hi-rise i would consider bringing a B.A.S.E chute to work. Or something to wrap with etc. Maybe even get permission to test it all out a few dozen times!
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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Tony... I can't access my rc.com email from work, which is where to P2P goes. Try rrradam[at]advancedphysics.org, although I am more than likely going to direct you to that thread, or at least replies in it, as ALL of this has been addressed there, AND you haven't even answered the questions I've asked you, yet I have addressed somethings in great detail, yet you have not addressed those either. I am not patient enough to just continue to repeat myself to someone who isn't even listening.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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Don't need any weapons Tony.
The fool rrrrAdam never read the official govt. NIST documents nor the 9/11 commission report.
In those documents it's re reveled by their own admission how everything was covered up.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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on topic here now.
the process theologian i know is pierre teilhard de chardin. i've tried to get largo to talk a little about the one he knows, but he won't. as i said, that process kaboodle from whitehead strikes me as the religious version of carl rogers. god gets to become a person. give him some space, i'm sure he'll be beautiful. sorry, god isn't the all-powerful guy in the sky with the long beard--we were only kidding about that.
anyway, teilhard's big premise tells us where we're going. not that far from the gospel according to tripl. teilhard's point omega is the culmination, the apotheosis of all consciousness. we're heading there with our wars, our arguments, our love. the closer we get, the more the tension mounts. you'll find some of the tension in your fingers on the keyboard and the flaming in your heart.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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if you start it, werner, i'll be there, but don't look for largo to show up.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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weschrist, you'll find more than 1000 architects and engineers here, with their professional reputations on the line: www.ae911truth.org
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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OK... Let's look at this:1). Yes!
2). God has a perfect plan for everyone of His creation. The unborn "fetus'" soul will be present with God as a fully developed spirit, aware of all that the good Lord feels is necessary for it to be aware of. (my opinion).
Aware of Gods love and the incredible love and peace and bliss that is Paradise. That is, union with Christs Spirit.
I don't know what anyone thinks or say's. The Bible describes it as a "sleep" or "rest". Time probably doesn't exist, it is most likely the intense/bliss of the perfect NOW...as in "I could be like this for eternity and not want anything else".
When Jesus returns with His saints at the Second Coming, the infant or fetus will have a new, fully grown spiritual body, "and thus forever be with the Lord."
So, some of this is in the Bible, other is speculation on my part. I am not particularlly concerned about the particulars, we are not told, or meant to know ALL of the mystery's. And I am not a pastor, or Bible scholar...
These questions are of minimal concern to me. What is important is the available presence and relationship that I have NOW with God.
#1 You believe that all you are aware of now, your memories and experiences will be with you in Heaven.
#2 Yet here, you won't quite acknowledge that what you have another soul will not, thus your "soul" will be of qualitative difference than the soul of an infant.
What about the soul of a 2 year old... Will it be self-centered, and through tantrums?
As to that, AND the rest... You confidently believe in all of that "magic" on your own speculation? Or the speculation of others in the past that you have internalized to be fact. THAT is what a "Myth" is my friend.
You have more questions, not just 2.
Here's another one... Since you quote scripture in a manner that implies you believe it is perfect and inerrant:
Since God created man (Adam) in his own image, does that mean he has a penis? An Anus? Eyes? Hands? What does he use them for? And what color do you suppose his eyes are?
See... You hit the nail on the head...I am not particularlly concerned about the particulars, we are not told, or meant to know ALL of the mystery's. And I am not a pastor, or Bible scholar...
You are not concerned with the particulars, so you don't think about them, or question them in any way... You even ignore the ones that don't make sense or compete with what you 'want to believe' is true, as evidenced by your proactivly ignoring the other questions you've been asked. Worse, you admit that you are not a Biblical scholar, yet you ignore and deny what most Biblical scholars have to say. THAT is willful ignorance.
You even said your self, the Bible says:The Bible describes it as a "sleep" or "rest". That's pretty clear.
Yet you come up with your own idea:Time probably doesn't exist, it is most likely the intense/bliss of the perfect NOW...as in "I could be like this for eternity and not want anything else". Based on "what"? The way you 'want' things to be.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:56am PT
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you're not a very patient guy, rrradam, that's pretty obvious. i'm not going to email you unless you promise to reply. this stuff has to be gone over nitpick-style and it isn't a lot of fun.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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Replying goes both ways... When I offer a detailed rebuttle of what you say, you have to acknowledge it, by either offering your own counter, or accepting that you were wrong. You have ignored EVERYTHING I have offered thus far.
Do you disagree with this statement? If so, then please show me where you have addressed what I've said in reply to some of your assertions.
I have no interest in having someone repeat the same things as fact, when they can be shown to be wrong. It is analgous to what we are going through in this thread with some of the Fundies... Quoting scripture as fact, without understanding the details.
And very true... I am often not patient... Tis one of my character defects (step 6).
I will address items, point by point with you, if you like... You can start by addressing the points I have made thus far, in reply to some of your assertions and misunderstandings, and downright false statements.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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The fool rrrrAdam never read the official govt. NIST documents nor the 9/11 commission report.
In those documents it's re reveled by their own admission how everything was covered up. Sorry... Last reply...
Werner... Those documents are available online, right? Please quote where it says this, and provide a link please.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:12pm PT
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rrrADAM- "You wrote 'Jesus is the one true God' Who did Jesus fall prostrate to, and pray all his life..."
Malachi 2:10 "Have we all not one Father? Did not one God create us?"
"All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: The virgin will be with child and give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel-which means, "God with us."
Doubting Thomas saw the nail prints in His hands and said "My Lord and my God..." John 20:28
There are numerous verses that point to Jesus' deity and the concept of the doctrine of the Trinity. I am not going to spend the whole day attempting to convince you of this. Ask Him Yourself, He is quit willing to proove it to you if you ask Him with a sincere and open heart, Bro!!!
Edit: "Then God said 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." Genesis 1:26
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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interesting about michael shermer, founder of the skeptics society, wes, to which i believe fructose here belongs.
schermer started out a christian theology major at pepperdine university, a pretty conservative place. then he saw the light, or the dark, depending on where you stand around here. he went on to claremont, next door to griffin, getting a phd not in any of the sciences but in history of science, dealing with alfred wallace, a spiritualist evolutionist. schermer's agenda has always been trying to get people to believe in a scientific orthodoxy, never dealing much in science himself.
i'll have to repeat what i said previously. the best philosophers of science are very good scientists, familiar with the cutting edge of their field, who take it on themselves to address philosophical aspects of their work to the general public. my favorite in physics is gordon kane. can't follow much from stephen hawking, but he tries, and it isn't easy.
it's interesting that schermer spent 10 years as a professional competitor in long-distance bicycling. i won't draw conclusions about that, but it may attest to some built-in stubbornness, familiar to us in mountaineering.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: The virgin will be with child and give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel-which means... Now we're potentially getting somewhere... And you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin "why"?
Where was Jesus' birth prophecized in the OT? Are you going to quote Isaiah? I hope so, as this will get interesting, and you will once again be forced to "Ignore and Deny".
Note - It's in bold for a reason.
And you haven't answered the question... Either Jesus is the "ONE true God" or he isn't. If he is that God, then you suggest that he prayed to himslef? Whe he cried out on the cross, asking why God "had foresaken him", then you are suggesting that he didn't know that was ther plan all along? (He asked "why", remember?) There is either ONE God, or there are more than one. As I said earlier, the Trinity is a human construct that came about in the 4th century. It's eay for you to overlook when you are not interested in the particulars, and don't question anything.
And he saw "nail prints in his hands" it is a pretty stupid made-up eye-witness account, as a nail the hands would not hold someone's weight, which is why most agree that the nail would have been through the wrist.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
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this stuff has to be gone over nitpick-style and it isn't a lot of fun. That's what I do for a living, brutha.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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Given the Scientific Story (aka the Epic of Evolution), can you build anything (e.g., an inspiring narrative or narratives) on it or with it that is positive and/or prescriptive and/or directional and/or life-affirming in any way. That's a $64M question I hope the 21st century gives some of its attention to.
P.S. One more thought: Does anyone besides me and Go-B think atheists could improve their game?
Sometimes I feel hammered from both sides. I wish atheists could see that they are their own worst enemy sometimes in moving forward.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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I dunno. Some would think our sending rockets and people to the moon, sequencing our DNA, cloning stem cells to cure disease, or finding out the universe is accelerating to be inspiring. The best moment actually comes the instant you realize you now know how to do something that stumped you yesterday.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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jan--
appreciate your comments on noneuropean languages. i once did a short article on what the vietnamese do in the vein of "ma ma ma ma ..." i think they have more pitches than anyone, and they love to cook up elaborate little stories which sound to westerners a lot like the repetition of a single syllable.
mariko and i happened to stroll through the garden of a buddhist temple the other day, just killing time before a concert started across the street. there was a statue of shinran there, the founder of "pure land" buddhism--is that the one you mention above? anyway, this dude lived about the time of st. francis in europe and wound up living a life a lot like francis's, the mendicant holy man, romantically wandering from adventure to adventure in the name of his particular spiritual package. the memorable thing, for me, about shinran was that he did not exclude "bad" people from heaven. no, he said, bad people need heaven even more than good people (!!!!!!!)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
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Given the Scientific Story (aka the Epic of Evolution), can you build anything (e.g., an inspiring narrative or narratives) on it or with it that is positive and/or prescriptive and/or directional and/or life-affirming in any way. That's a $64M question I hope the 21st century gives some of its attention to.
P.S. One more thought: Does anyone besides me and Go-B think atheists could improve their game?
Sometimes I feel hammered from both sides. I wish atheists could see that they are their own worst enemy sometimes in moving forward.
whoaaa ... fructo is not an atheist?
anyway, teilhard did all that stuff you're asking for in your first paragraph.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Fructose-
Look up Brian Swimme and Thomas Berry.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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Tony-
The Japanese version of Tibetan Buddhism is called Shingon, founded by Kukai also know by the honorific of Kobo Daishi. This is different than the Pure Land Buddhism, Jodo Shinshu, of Shinran. Both men are fascinating to read about.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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i saw a movie about kukai. the only thing i remember was there was some kind of volcano erupting or earthquake or something and a bunch of men and women together about to become victims of a terrible disaster. no way out of it. what to do? kukai says, let's make love!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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He wrote: "
"Seems to me you might have gotten things off the ground a little smoother if you had simply stated upfront that you believe there are [objective] "powers" which exist separate from and beyond 'normal' human experience."
I didn't say that I "believe" any such thing, especially that these "powers" exist "separate from" anything. Where would they be?
Funny thing is people are fine with knowing it takes around twenty years to go from a bucolic state to where the brain is sufficiently trained to handle adult challenges, or that it might take a month to climb K2. But my little invitation to get quiet for A FEW MOMENTS shows (I knew I would probably get no takers) than most expect to get all the way to "God" without investing any time or effort at all, and merely want to "think" about it all, which to me is like thinking about face climbing or something. This is not serious exploration, IMO.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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whoaaa ... fructo is not an atheist?
If I'm forced to identify with a label in the negative, referencing what I don't believe in, then that would be... Fructo is a non-jehovahnist, just as Fructo is a non-Serapean or non-Jovian.
anyway, teilhard did all that stuff you're asking for in your first paragraph.
"...all that stuff..."
-the more you post, the more I think your writing is so loose (e.g., with the context) and flippant it is not worth reading.
Ha! Here's Tony writing about Largo on another thread-
"his writing often shows a lack of discipline and tends to run way long... as i said previously, i don't think he's digested that stuff yet, and that may be why he isn't making sense here."
If that aint the pot calling the kettle black.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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rrrADAM!
I base my belief on a RELATIONSHIP!!
A relationship that started at 8 years old and is PERSONAL!
But you can not grasp the fact that an Omnipotent God can speak to and relate to and prove His presents to ME, YOU, or ANYONE with an open heart and mind.
I have no doubt about who He is. I knew the moment He came into my life, and the first ten years of the relationship I never even opened a Bible. And the brief time in church from 8-12 years old, they spoke in Latin, and I didn't have a clue what the rituals were about. But I did know Jesus Christ and what He was doing in my heart and life.
I left the Catholic Church at 12 because it didn't jive with what God was telling me in my relationship with Him.
I don't have any personal or spiritual responsibility to answer your ambiguous questions which you somehow feel will prove or disprove something.
I could care less about how accurate my answers were, I did the best I could with what I have read and studied over the years and what the Bible does say. Who knows what our souls/spirit will be experiencing in paradise or hades.
I do know our spirit is with Jesus...good enough for me. And it is heaven! What an absurd question "What about the soul of the two year old, will it be self centered and throwing tantrums."
Who knows and who cares? That is a question that a ten year old would ask, and then come back and say..."Your not concerned about the particulars..."
I am not concerned about ridiculous questions about two year old's throwing tantrums.
I would imagine it is in perfect peace!
You have already come to your own bigoted closed minded conclusions!
LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION! Why should I be compelled to answer YOUR questions period. And if I should IGNORE one of your questions, how does that make me "WILLFULLY IGNORANT?
You are a pathetic fool rrrADAM! You are the one who is denying, denying, denying!!! Ignoring, ignoring, ignoring.
And it is eating at your soul because you can not PROVE that God doesn't exist.
You claim to have been an "Xian" but you DENY ever knowing Him.
You believed with your head maybe, but not with your heart. Because had you asked Him into your heart, His Spirit The Holy Spirit would have joined with your spirit and you would have been spiritually born again.
"You must be born again."
"For even the demons BELIEVE He is the Son of God, and SHUDDER!"
You are a fool rrrADAM, I say this with great dismay and sadness in my heart. "For the fool says there is no God".
For you are full of your own ignorance and a willful
EDIT: MY COMPUTERS BATTERY RAN OUT!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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Here's Thomas Berry, p25, the Great Work, which I read Nov 2008: "Our observational sciences presently have moved beyond the mechanistic understanding of a so-called objective world as it was known in the past few centuries of Newtonian physics." That's a problem. Either it's sloppy writing or sloppy thinking, I don't know which.
It's a problem because though arguably (for those splitting hairs between nm and qm) we are "beyond" the mechanistic metaphor of billard balls (Newton's mechanistic reactions, Newtons' mechanics) we are not beyond the mechanistic metaphor of the next model, quantum mechanics.
But it is hard to criticize Berry when he says 100 great things in this book. -Which I could've quoted as well. Hard? Esp on a forum.
EDIT
Ha! Here's Tony writing about Largo on another thread-
"his writing often shows a lack of discipline and tends to run way long... as i said previously, i don't think he's digested that stuff yet, and that may be why he isn't making sense here."
If that aint the pot calling the kettle black.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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never heard of teilhard then, fruc?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
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oops--the cat's outa the bag. back to 9/11 talk.
:-D
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
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i know largo won't take it personally--it was a trick comment.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Fructose-
You asked for someone who could write an inspiring narrative for a new nature and evolution based religion so I suggested Swimme and Berry as two that seem to be good role models for what you are proposing.
Meanwhile it certainly strikes me that whatever old religions we hang onto or new ones we create, they are all going to have to come to terms with man's place in the natural world, our responsibility to our own ecosystem, and our place in various forms of evolution - not just physical evolution but also our social, psycological, and spiritual evolution.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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Tony-
i think we're talking about different guys named Kukai.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
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Jan wrote-
"so I suggested Swimme and Berry as two that seem to be good role models for what you are proposing"
Thanks. Agree they are fine role models. Loyal Rue, too. Campbell, too. Moreover, we need whole new disciplines, in and out of academia, to address it and most importantly, to get around to do it.
Just do it.
Additional:
Jan wrote-
"...old religions we hang onto or new ones we create..."
For starters, we won't be calling them "religions." We'll leave that word to the supernaturalists.
Jan wrote-
"...they are all going to have to come to terms with man's place in the natural world, our responsibility to our own ecosystem, and our place in various forms of evolution - not just physical evolution but also our social, psycological, and spiritual evolution."
Now we're cooking, nicely said. Hey, agreement.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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rrrADAM- "The Trinity is a human construct that came about in the 4th century."
Did you read what I posted up thread?
To begin with/once again:
"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likness;..." Genesis 1:26
And there are many more ref. two the Triune Godhead!
Moses was the author of Genesis...way before the 4th Century!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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same guy, jan. this was shown at a temple of esoteric buddhism. you may not know him very well.
:-)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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okay, tripl--god is a trinity and it makes man in his likeness.
wait a minute--three-headed men then?
but there's the trick--we have men and women, a natural balance and complement evolved way back in nature. if this reflects god, god must be a lovely balance of male and female. not quite the god delivered by christianity, a lopsidedly male monster with strange dovetailed side-effects.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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rrrADAM- "The Trinity is a human construct that came about in the 4th century."
Did you read what I posted up thread?
To begin with/once again:
"Then God said, 'Then God said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likness;..." Genesis 1:26
And there are many more ref. two the Triune Godhead!
Moses was the author of Genesis...way before the 4th Century!
Yea... Certainly MUST be the one/three God(s) you believe in, not any of these other Gods mentioned in your Bible:
Adrammelech II Kings 17:31 Sepharvite God.
Anammelech II Kings 17:31 Sepharvite God.
Ashima II Kings 17:30 Samaritan Moon Goddess.
Ashtoreth I Kings 11:05 Canaanite Goddess.
Baal I Kings 18:19 Canaanite God ("Lord") of
fertility, vegitation, and storms.
Baal-berith Judges 8:33 A regional variation/aspect of Baal.
Baal-peor Numbers 25:03 Moabite regional variation/aspect of
Baal.
Baal-zebub Luke 11:19 Philistine/Ekronian regional
variation/aspect of Baal.
Baalim I Kings 18:18 Canaanite Gods ("Lords"), a
collective of the different
aspects of Baa.
Bel Isiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Sumerian God
("Lord").
Chemosh I Kings 11:07 Moabite war God.
Dagon I Samuel 05:02 Philistine/Ekronian/Babylonian God
of agriculture.
Diana of the
Ephesians Acts 19:35 Ephesian moon and nature Goddess,
("Divine/Brilliant").
Jehovah Exodus 6:03 Hebrew God
Jupiter Acts 14:12 Roman God (possibly derived from
'Zeus-pater', Father Zeus).
Lucifer Isiah 14:12 ("Light-Bearer")
Mercurius Acts 14:12 Otherwise known as the Roman God
Mercury, God of communication and
travel, and messenger of the
Gods...which is probably why Paul
was called this at Lystra.
Milcom I Kings 11:05 Ammonite God
Molech I Kings 11:07 Ammonite God, also called Moloch,
most probably Baal-Hammon of
Carthage.
Nebo Isiah 46:01 Assyrian/Babylonian/Chaldean God of
wisdom and writing, also called
Nabu.
Nergal II Kings 17:30 Cuth/Assyrian/Babylonian war and
underworld God, also called
Meshlamthea.
Nibhaz II Kings 17:31 Avites God
Nisroch II Kings 19:37 Assyrian God
Rimmon II Kings 05:18 Babylonian/Syrian storm God
involved (as Ramman) with the
Deluge, according to Hebrew texts;
also known as Ramman/Rammon.
Succoth-benoth II Kings 17:30 Babylonian fertility Goddess ("She
Who Produces Seed"), also known as
Zarpanitu/Zerpanitum.
Tammuz Ezekial 8:14 Assyrian/Babylonian God
Tartak II Kings 17:31 Avites God
Ya know, Jesus was a great teacher, and why is it that he never taught the "Trinity", if you believe it was relevant prior to the 4th century? Do your homework... Problem is, you believe all this "hearsay" by people who never knew Jesus before he died, take it as "Gospel" (all pun intended), and absolutely will not look elsewhere.
Note also that you put Jesus before God, as you pray to him "through" Jesus, (I.e., In Jesus' name I pray), and the 1st Commandment has two parts, not just one. At least know your rules. Jesus would rebuke you for breaking this 1st Commanment, and he would tell you that you are to pray to the same God that he did... Same God the Muslims do today, but not you. God even said, "No other Gods before me...", so he acknowledges that there are many Gods (see above), but he wants to be your special favorite God.
And you just have to find a way to dismiss or ignore what I have to say, even if you have to make it up...
"I only had God in my head..." Nope, reading comprehension FAIL! As I said, I was just as confident as are you. I believed with all of my heart.
And you don't have to answer any of my questions... They are the questions that will set you free, yet you like it in your comfy box of dogma. No freedom for you.
What you should be asking yourself is:
"If my belief is reasonable, then why cannot I not reasonably answer such simple questions?"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Nope, I believed with all of my heart...".
So do the demons!
Maybe I didn't make it to clear, "You must be born again."
You must repent(realize that you are a sinner, and turn/say your sorry, and then ask Jesus to come into your life and take it over(put Him on the throne/center of your life)which results in a spiritual rebirth.
When did all this take place?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Nope, I believed with all of my heart...".
So do the demons!
Maybe I didn't make it to clear, "You must be born again."
You must repent(realize that you are a sinner, and turn/say your sorry, and then ask Jesus to come into your life and take it over(put Him on the throne/center of your life)which results in a spiritual rebirth.
When did all this take place? I was, and did all that... When I was 15. Believed for about 6 years... Even witnessed to my friends trying to save them from Hell too.
So, now what?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Maybe I didn't make it to clear, "You must be born again." And what makes you so certain of this? I'm fairly certain that Mother Teresa wasn't "born again", so are you suggesting that she is in Hell? You did say "...must...", not "...should...".
Same goes for Ghandi, and even the Virgin Mary for that matter...
Do you really thing she asked her son to forgive her sins? And if so, "why"?
See... Now we're back to those who died before Christ, as you said "...must...", implying that is the only way to salvation.
What about John the Baptist? Is he saved? Jesus hadn't died for his sins yet.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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If my belief is reasonable, why should I have to know/answer such questions? ie. "Do two year olds through temper tantrums..."
I know Jesus Christ, that is all I need to know.
Just like the thief on the cross...
What would you ask the thief on the cross(the one who asked Jesus to "remember me...")if you were one of the Roman guards?
"Hey thief on the cross...does a two year old throw temper tantrums in heaven?"
And if he doesn't answer would you call him "Willfully ignorant."?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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If my belief is reasonable, why should I have to know/answer such questions? ie. "Do two year olds through temper tantrums..."
I know Jesus Christ, that is all I need to know.
Just like the thief on the cross...
What would you ask the thief on the cross(the one who asked Jesus to "remember me...")if you were one of the Roman guards?
"Hey thief on the cross...does a two year old throw temper tantrums in heaven? You obviously, or willfully, are not understanding the question regarding the 2 year old. Go back and reread, as it really isn't that difficult... You answered the one about the infants, and the followup with 2 year olds was to show that your answer was absurd?
Now you are throwing a tantrum regarding that question. (hehe)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
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Just to humor you...
What makes you think that the perceived baggage of a soul that has existed on earth for 50-60 years would be superior to that of a soul that has not experienced "the world". And like I said, they would both have perfect peace(after all, they are in heaven).
And I am going by what I know of Hades and Paradise(this is not yet heaven and hell). Of Lazerus and the rich man. The rich man was doing all the talking, Lazarus seemed very content.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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Adam, what are you hoping to accomplish?
As you pointed out in your very first post to this thread, it is irrational to argue with someone whom no evidence could ever dissuade.
Are you being just as irrational?
Or are you just having fun, like Largo? Like DMT said to me days ago here, and years ago at rc.com: "I like fighting windmills".
I often can't help but mount Rocinante, grab my lance, and attack what seems like easy pickings (Young Earth, Creationism), and get carried away as I just can't understand how people can hold such obviosly absurd beliefs so 'confidently'.
In other words... I'm an idiot, and a glutton for pain and frustration.
I "HOPE" to inspire some to just peer outside of their box of dogma enough to objectively look for other sources... The bigger picture... To use a little of that 'God given ability to reason'. If they do it themselves, they should see the absurdity and adjust their beliefs accordingly. I have helped a few to do this so far, so it isn't in vain, but it is painfull, as I ain't too patient, and I do not suffer fools gladly.
Like my wife says:
"Hey, what I believe makes no sense, but it makes me feel good at times."
I support her, as she is reasonable about it. She is a Cathy by birth and family, but is really a Protty but doesn't know it.
Edit: I jacked this reply up by accidently editting it and replacing it with the one below, and had to reconstruct it. Thought I hit a 'quote' button like at rc.com.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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Tony-
Kukai was a celibate monk. Were you reading English subtitles? A lot gets lost in translation over here.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
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Like my wife says...
"Hey, what I believe makes no sense, but it makes me feel good at times."
This is the real reason I think, why religion survives.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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no, jan, but the event itself could well have been a fiction or legend. the point of the little vignette was--in face of death, affirm what is good about life. perhaps more of a taoist sentiment. but i hate to tell you about certain "celibate" monks, east or west ...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
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Just to humor you...
What makes you think that the perceived baggage of a soul that has existed on earth for 50-60 years would be superior to that of a soul that has not experienced "the world". And like I said, they would both have perfect peace(after all, they are in heaven).
And I am going by what I know of Hades and Paradise(this is not yet heaven and hell). Of Lazerus and the rich man. The rich man was doing all the talking, Lazarus seemed very content. Again... Reading comprehension FAIL!
I said:
#1 You believe that all you are aware of now, your memories and experiences will be with you in Heaven.
#2 Yet here, you won't quite acknowledge that what you have another soul will not, thus your "soul" will be of qualitative difference than the soul of an infant. Where did I say 'superior'? I said qualitatively different.
What I am saying is that you believe that all of your life experiences and memories will go with you... That's kida the key of an 'afterlife' as it means that you will, in some form live forever, which is why that idea of an everlasting soul/spirit is so appealing... People fear their mortality.
Now... Back on track....
You believe that you will take all of that with you, but that an infant will have nothing of the sort, as they lived no life, have no experiences or memories. In fact, they can't even think, as try to think without words.... We think in words.
Now you dodged the fetus part, as they never even saw light, yet you believe their souls will be in Heaven as well.
See, what I am trying to get you to look at is that you have a set of beliefs (confident beliefs) that not only do you have no REASON to believe, as per your own admition, but also that makes no sense when looked at with reason.
The fact that you cannot really answer them shows that, but you just ignore it... Don't think about it, and say you aren't interested in thinking about it... But it's TRUE!
Get it? I don't think so.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
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Like my wife says...
"Hey, what I believe makes no sense, but it makes me feel good at times."
This is the real reason I think, why religion survives. |
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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Dr. F, Craigy....that's the point. :D When I went the opposite way from non believer to believer my whole life changed. How I treated others, how I treated myself, from being negative and self centered to a much more positive person with a focus on helping others.... to cite just a few of the many great things that have been slowly building and playing out in my life really due in a huge part to actually trying to live out Matthew 5-7 on a day by day basis. Peace, lynnie
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
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you'd better reiterate them, dr. F. if you do, i'll try. probably the most important aspect of christianity.
i find it interesting that islam can be an equally powerful religion, ignoring the resurrection of jesus entirely, and mohammed is a-moulderin' in his grave in medina and people just file by reverently and don't carry on.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Since God created man in his own image, does that mean He has a penis? A anus? Eyes and hands?..."
T-Bird- "Does that mean man has three heads"
"And you put on the new man, that was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness of the truth." Ephesians 4:24
God is spirit, so it says in John 4. And man is also of spirit(body, soul and spirit). We can therefore communicate with Him and worship Him.
We are able to comphrehend between good and evil/right and wrong and are rational beings. We share to some degree, some of His attributes such as love.
God can be angered and has feelings that can be grieved.
These are just a few ways...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
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TripL7, et all...
Let me see if I can distill this down for you to better show the point I am trying to make...
Let's review:
You confidently believe, because of your "relationship" with Jesus (I.e., emotions), and some (not all, just some) text in the Bible that you interpret in a manner that validates what you believe. (Again, not all, as much of what you believe is "speculation", and cannot be found in the text.)
Yet... You confidently dismiss the same "relationship" (emotions) and interpretations of the same text (Jews), or even other texts (Muslims), to be false, as there can be only "one true God", and Jesus is that God, or at least an integral part of it.
Now... Why is your "realtionship" (emotions) and interpretation correct, yet all others false?
See... The same things you use to validate your beliefs, other use to validate theirs as well. And, the most powerfull one is the "relationship" (emotion), and people have been having 'religious experiences' for thousands of years, from the Oracles of Delphi, to the many Shamins all over the world, to the Muslim Bomber or Jihadist, etc...
Now... What makes you different than all others who believe in a competing faith?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Since God created man in his own image, does that mean He has a penis? A anus? Eyes and hands?..."
T-Bird- "Does that mean man has three heads"
"And you put on the new man, that was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness of the truth." Ephesians 4:24
God is spirit, so it says in John 4. And man is also of spirit(body, soul and spirit). We can therefore communicate with Him and worship Him.
We are able to comphrehend between good and evil/right and wrong and are rational beings. We share to some degree, some of His attributes such as love.
God can be angered and has feelings that can be grieved.
These are just a few ways... Dude... You even quoted, yet failed to answer.
"Created in his image"...
To refresh your memory:
image (plural images)
An optical or other representation of a real object; a graphic; a picture.
And also remember... He created Adam from dust (in his own image), and Eve from one of Adam's ribs. It doesn't say, or even imply, that he created his soul from dust. That story is a way of saying where the first man and woman came from, as after that, they were born from Women... With no souls needed to be created from dust to blow into the babies.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 22, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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I have meditated, read about a variety of religions, opened my heart to Jesus in a church, and more. It all provided some insight to what other people probably believe and I have learned lessons and ways to look at things that have made my life better. But I have felt the most spiritual and connected to God/The Univese from contemplating the scientific theories around the origin of the universe and relativity.
IMO if something is true it will likely be able to be shown and experienced, not told and believed.
I try to be open minded and willing to understand new ways to think, but I also see religion as taking advantage of this, and also taking advantage of people's fear of death, and other fears to bring them into their fold and win their hearts, minds, and wallets.
There are so many religous teachings that I see as obvious BS. E.g. Ours is the only way to God. These Red Flags indicate these religions are self serving bureaucracies. The histories of most the major religions also speak to the contrived way they were constructed to assimilate as many people as possible and how ruthless they have been in destroying competing views. If what you speak is truth is should stand on it's own.
I can also tell when I converse with religous people they are not interested in any debate that threatens their beliefs. I have never heard a very religous person admit the could be totally wrong. If it is truth you should not be frightened to explore other possibilities.
If you choose to believe, and that belief brings you comfort, guidance, purpose, etc. and you feel it is 100% truth, I have no probelm with that, but don't push that belief on me and expect it to work for me.
I think evolution is life-affirming almost by definition. Modified versions of earlier life survive and reproduce better in their environment. What better way to affirm life than to produce new life that is more successful and diverse.
I think, "you can't describe it" when talking about religous experiences is a cop out. Words can't describe everything but they can certainly give an approximation or a starting point.
More on the original question: Why do so many people believe in God? Early people needed an explanation for their universe, so they created the gods. Later religions evolved these concepts (and sometimes copied older stories almost verbatim) and created massive organizations and books to promote their views and bureaucracies. Currently there are around 600,000 clergymen and women in the US alone, of course many are promoting religion. Many religions promote proselytizing, and people come literally knocking on my door to promote their religion. But over time this influence is diminishing. After Christianity and Islam, non-religous is the next major "religion". This trend is continuing. At some point there will be more non-religous than religous.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 22, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
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Well said.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 22, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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rrrADAM- "Now you dodged the fetus part..."
"No I didn't 7:27am(this morning)"The unborn "fetus" soul will be present with God as a fully developed spirit."
You do realize this is a temporary place(Paradise)and that Jesus will return and resurect our bodies to be joined with our spirit/soul and He is going to set up His Kingdom here on earth for 1,000 years. Just think of all the climbing you could do in 1,000 years!
Sure would be cool to have you guys here to belay me! hehe...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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i'm going to assume you're not being facetious here, doc--most people have some knowledge of the standard christian version of these alleged events.
jesus died, yes, but he overcame death. only died once. once was enough. resurrected, walked around a bit, ascended into heaven on a cloud, i think it says. promises to be with us always. supposedly coming back to judge everyone, wrap up the show, heaven happily ever after for those who got in on the program.
don't get picky about the cloud. yea, if he'd'a done it today, some jetliner might have zinged through the cloud he was ascending on, and that would've been the end ... of the jetliner.
my younger brother just got back from a trip to italy, including a viewing of the shroud of turin. we argue this crap until we both get headaches. pretty convincing relic, the shroud, the wrapping cloth jesus was supposedly buried in. it was as though his body passed through the cloth like gas, leaving the mark of jesus behind. really high-tech holy. want to see jesus? go to turin.
so the resurrection is the great imperative of christianity, and it's why they claim such an all-powerful god. stripped of the resurrection, it's kind of a pain-in-the-butt religion. i've even had priests tell me as much. everything hinges on that. accept it or don't. believe or not. either/or--not much leeway inbetween.
it becomes a matter of "qualia" for me. (hahaha--f*@k that word). i find this god-magic world an impossible milieu for tony bird's daily life. i also think it stands in the way of most of the efforts to make the world a decent place, preventing us from seriously focusing on problems in the here and now and getting our heads together about them. too many believers want to walk around with smiles on their faces and love in their hearts and not really think they ever have to do anything about the big problems because, after all, the god that can make a body pass through that sheet and come alive again is the one in charge.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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I wound up writing this to someone and why not post it here as well:
It's a big universe and this earth is just one place. We tend to judge "God" and "Creation" based on our blind experience here on this dense planet. We assume it's supposed to be a pleasant experience to live here.
My experience is that people often, even, mainly, grow through their painful experiences. The difficulties we undergo are reflection of things hidden within us that emerge for us to look at, resolve and integrate. Having an inkling of past lives is also gives a clue that we wind up experiencing reflections of pain we caused in the past (when we were even less evolved) Perhaps this planet is the tough place where we learn hard lessons (like climbing a big wall is hell and we go for it anyway)
Still, no point in accepting a God on Blind Faith nor rejecting one based on limited logic.
We can keep the truth at bay with our unconscious will for independence from "higher power." God doesn't need your brown nosing and being left alone is no problem. If you are ready to open your eyes, then seek it.
Clearly and unambiguously invite the Spirit to visit you and don't have an expectation of how that will happen or what it will be like, and something will happen, if one doesn't stand in their own way. Life is always speaking to us, every day. The world is fluid, nothing is randomly coincidental. Events will speak to you if you listen
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
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(a) Karl Baba, you are a (convinced) reincarnationist?
(b)God doesn't need your brown nosing and being left alone is no problem. Yet, (1) the whole of the Abrahamic religion turns on this idea and (2) when outsiders (those outside the Abrahamic religion) point out the immaturity of this idea (e.g., as obviously anthropogenic, manmade), they're typically attacked.
(c) "We assume it's supposed to be a pleasant experience to live here." Yeah, ain't that amazing.
Looks like we could do better than the Abrahamic narrative. Time for a fresh look.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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Or maybe everything is randomly coincidental and we just impose patterns on it because we can.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
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Karl Baba, you are a (convinced) reincarnationist?
Absolutely, there was a long history of even early Christians (the Gnostics, among others) believing in reincarnation.
Not only is there amazing evidence of people remembering their past lives, writing it down, and then researching the facts...it's the only outlook that suggests any justice in our existence.
People are obviously born with greatly different talents, resources, pains and challenges. It makes sense if we evolve from life to life and undergo the reflections of our previous actions. otherwise it's just God's roulette wheel where some have it easy and others fight impossible odds in a "One shot and if you mess up, it's torture forever" folly.
How does Mozart write music at 5 years old? He brought the chops with him.
Even Jesus in the bible said he was "here before" but wasn't recognized.
Peace
Karl
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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doc, it tells you a little about the way things work.
they made a big deal about it 10 years ago or so, when they actually gave up a little bit of the shroud for radiocarbon dating. the results came back, pretty much as you say, although i haven't seen that about the paint chemicals before. this came out in time magazine. the next thing you know, there's quite an uproar. that shroud means a lot to a lot of people. then time magazine comes out with some scientific equivocation. you will find websites these days with scientists on both sides of this silly shroud, equally credentialed, picking this nit and that nat and arguing about mistakes and oversights the other side made. just like 9/11--exactly (as largo likes to say).
and if that wasn't enough, they had a fire in the cathedral shortly afterwards and a brave italian fireman on the front page, having saved the shroud from the flames. to me, the modus operandi starts to get transparent.
now if you like the shroud, i've got another good one for you. there's a nice italian town named prato that has lived in the shadow of florence since the middle ages. every place likes to have a local product, and the local product here, don't laugh, is the virgin mary's garter. i found out about this because we we're walking around downtown and i noticed some very unusual architecture in their beautiful, old cathedral: it has what looks like an outdoor pulpit, a very graceful pulpit, reminding me of the seashell boticelli's venus stands on. hmmm--maybe this was a lively medieval town where there was lots of speeches and rhetoric on the town square? not a chance. this special little gallery was built so the church's relic could be shown to the faithful once a year. you got to kneel down and admire the glory of a piece of white cloth. pretty exciting, huh?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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Karl Baba wrote-
"it's the only outlook that suggests any justice in our existence...otherwise it's just God's (or Nature's) roulette wheel where some have it easy and others fight impossible odds..."
Got that right.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
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fructose, you big tattle-taler. yer gonna get a pink belly.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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who says if you should reincarnate up or down -that's a good one.
there are 1000s of people that say they were Cleopatra in a past life -another good one.
Thomas Berry-
it's evolutionary, it's creative... HFCS-
it's evolutionary, it's mechanistic, it's creative...
...and it's damn unfair in too many ways to count.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:26pm PT
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past lives--that's one of the things carl sagan conceded--did i mention that on this thread?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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How does Mozart write music at 5 years old? He brought the chops with him.
Or maybe he was just smarter than most of us. The simple explanation of him being smart at music is just so much less fun than thinking that it is magic.
And don't dis' Mo. By saying he had a head start, you are saying that he cheated. Are you cheating?
Dave
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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Tinhead Bird wrote-
"...did i mention that on this thread?"
Yeah, you did. And if I were King of America, I'd throw you in jail for that crazy nutso irresponsible remark.
Rectorsquid wrote-
And don't dis' Mo. By saying he had a head start, you are saying that he cheated. -damn straight.
And what about the so-called musical idiot savants like those profiled a couple of times on 60 minutes. What, did they come through the "portal" rushed- before they were fully "reset"?
To the supernaturalists east and west: take some science courses. Educate yourselves.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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too late to throw sagan in jail. you're still gonna get that pink belly. dr f will hold you down.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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Are you being just as irrational?
Or are you just having fun, like Largo?
-------
Hey, I'm trying to have some fun with this otherwise it get's deadly. But at the same time I try tossing a few things out there that serious adventurers can test drive if so inclined, as opposed to just off-loading a bunch of cognitive decrees.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
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Times are changing, thank goodness. It's one more example. In the past, disagreements over these subjects could and would get deadly. No longer.
(Unless, perhaps you're posting from Iran or Pakistan, medieval Abrahamic nations regarding their govs if not their people.)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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Good to look at your emotional investment in "Being Right" on this thread. Obvious that many folks are saying "Not proved" or "no evidence" about things when they really haven't given it an honest look.
Like the tourists at the base of El Cap who can't believe anyone has ever climbed that thing, when it's crawling with climbers.
Spirituality is sort of like that. The "El Cap" climbers of the Spirit don't try to Spray about it to folks who aren't interested, because they know that nobody is going to get it until they are ready, that everyone is on their path in some way and will come to know in their own time, and because they don't want to waste their time or be burned at the stake (or modern day Equivalent)
Of course, lots of frauds and delusional folks out there too, but hey, we're shipwrecked in this life and on this planet and science isn't able to do a damn thing yet to help us prepare for after death.
So you have to separate the wheat from a lot of choss if you want to go into it, or just live your life and deal with whatever happens if you'd rather do the hard knocks school. Both the Spirit School and the Life school have hard knocks. My experience is that the Spirit school makes the hard knocks easier and gives you tools to have insight and happiness now.
I understand why people are pissed at religion, they have a completely valid case, just like we could be pissed at science for giving us a world of pollution and the tools to kill everyone on the planet. It's reflections of our human situation. The trick is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and take a stab at the big mysteries of Life.
Thought experiment. Even science says everything likely forms of one energy. As a baseline, let's call that "God" and recognize that this energy manages to form in intelligent ways. It's communicating with itself through it's own laws and forces. Look at the laws of conservation of forms of energy and don't assume consciousness is excluded. There's a "God" for sure that got you under control in some way. The real question is "What is and what isn't God's nature?" Think of the scope of God, even in science-energy God, and you'll understand that trying to stuff that into a mental concept is beyond our wiring and that science has only scratched the surface.
Peace
Karl
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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Karl- The sciences reveal that life at base is physics and chemistry. And a successive buildup of these in "anabolic" systems. There's no getting around it- this conclusion. This conclusion or in different terms decision-making is made all the stronger the greater a person's so-called science span, too.
What's more, sciences and engineering- in addition to everyday general life experience- also teach that there is an intimate relationship if not marriage between structure and function. Many esp those whose life experiences have been centered on its study or investigation (e.g., as a scientist or engineer) have grown to appreciate, respect this inter-relationship. So naturally they don't like to see it denied or dissed and so, thus, are responding.
From the perspective of those who highly regard the functionality of matter in all its forms, let's call them material functionalists, to deny this close wonderous structure-function correspondence that matter gifts us is (a) easily seen as ignorant or disrespectful and (b) quite analogous to denying that man could climb El Cap to use your example.
you have to separate the wheat from a lot of choss if you want to go into it -damn straight.
P.S.
If one wanted to engage in "stretching" however, using the power of human imagination, he could easily call the propagation of genes or their phenotypes or phenotypal functionality "reincarnation." Heck, maybe I will for a couple of days- just to show that I have the power to stretch my imagination and the power to strecth my metaphors and language.
I believe in reincarnation. Genetic reincarnation. Phenotype reincarnation.
P.S.S. Karl's a reincarnationist. ("Absolutely...") So I wonder if Jan's a reincarnationist.
P.S.S.S Karl, good work on the Peak Oil posts. We have common ground with that one.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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largo--nothing you've ever mentioned on this thread has sounded like a serious adventure to me, except the story about tommy. i've had an adventure or two like that--they seem to come along in their own sweet time--hard to go out looking for them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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Jolly Roger wrote-
"It was my quest to understand things greater than me."
Me, too. That's why I've been studying it all- the whole shebang- without letup since childhood. For some, it was tennis or rock n roll or Wall Street or Hollywood, for me it was always that great intersection (or agora) where science, philosophy, religion and belief come together to address the Big Questions of life and to seek life strategies for getting through it.
Regarding religion, JR wrote-
it allows people to believe in something greater than themselves. Agree.
It also allowed people (a) to over-state, or over-inflate, how the world truly works and how life truly works and then (b) to institutionalize these over-done larger-than-life models. And today we're paying the price for this on many fronts.
Locker- Excellent!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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let's talk about mozart and justice--that's what "amadeus" was all about--his competitor salieri was just sick about that much talent in his sorry-ass face.
karl, i think you need to rethink justice. did salieri come back as jelly roll morton?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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Karl wrote-
"Thought experiment. Even science says everything likely forms of one energy. As a baseline, let's call that "God" and recognize that this energy manages to form in intelligent ways. It's communicating with itself through it's own laws and forces. Look at the laws of conservation of forms of energy and don't assume consciousness is excluded. There's a "God" for sure that got you under control in some way. The real question is "What is and what isn't God's nature?" Think of the scope of God, even in science-energy God, and you'll understand that trying to stuff that into a mental concept is beyond our wiring and that science has only scratched the surface."
Fine. But you're selective if not deluded if you think this is the "God concept" of eight out of ten in the bible belt of America- or that it would be an acceptable spiritually satisfying form of "God" to them.
In the past, both you and Brian (the phily prof) have made light of these kind of religious people as though they hardly exist. In American culture, still today, they are the majority. I repeat: the majority. The majority of American culture believes this world is three worlds in one (a three-layer cake) and that it is a God Kingdom ruled by God-King Jehovah.
Were you and Brian raised in Ivory Towers or Harvard Square? I wasn't. My family, and I believe Weschrist's too, were raised squarely in Kansas or Utah settings. So firsthand we know the people and the effects. Today's politics don't reflect any energy-god, instead it reflects strongly the personal God Jehovah taken quite literally.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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I always think it's strange when people state a belief in the supernatural is somehow a requirement to believe in something bigger/greater than themselves. Or maybe I just don't get it.
I am just a single human. A thinking animal with a limited lifespan and maybe a soul. I can think of a number of things greater than myself; all people living, humanity, the Earth, the solar system, the Univserse, Jesus (the man), The Founding Fathers, Royal Robbins, Elvis, etc.
A single human is an incredibly amazing thing, but of course there are greater things.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
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Fet- I get you. There are countless things greater than me and they are all natural. Outstanding.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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My feeling is that both traditional religion and science are in the dark to a great degree regarding the biggest picture of existence. That's the way it rolls on this dense rock we live on.
I'm not taking on everybody's blind faith except for ones who express an interest. You'll notice they'll turn a deaf ear, just like "non-believers" sometimes do here on the taco. I haven't been arguing in favor of old religions here on this thread, just in favor of what I've found to be true.
I've made it plain here that I don't accept 3000 year old morality laws and even the fundamentalists don't practice the religious laws of Jesus time (like stoning adulterers) I'm happy to fight against Sharia Law or Old Bible law being instituted in the US. Still, I respect the way we all make due with life and have consistently found that everyone I meet through supertopo is a fine person in person.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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Karl, and that's why I like you. And would miss your posts.
Peace.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
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Karl- The sciences reveal that life at base is physics and chemistry. And a successive buildup of these in "anabolic" systems. There's no getting around it- this conclusion. This conclusion or in different terms decision-making is made all the stronger the greater a person's so-called science span, too.
Thats if you take a rather gross level view of life. When you get one level more subtle, the level of "Prana, Chi, Life force" experienced by martial arts and meditators in every culture throughout time. Then science is lost.
Dismiss it out of hand if you want to close your mind but if you care to challenge your assumptions, check out this guy who has been observed in controlled scientific settings. He says he hasn't eaten in many decades. Science observed him, and found he managed well without eating. Theoretically impossible and reported by the BBC. Did this lead to greater scientific investigation? Hardly. Both science and religion like their heads in the sands where investigation runs against their cultural grain.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8652837.stm
Peace
Karl
From a wiki on him
"Prahlad Jani is a controversial Indian 81 year old sadhu who has claimed to have lived without food and water for the last 70 years. His ability to live without food and water was investigated during monitoring over a two-week period[33] by the doctors and researchers of Defence Institute of Physiology & Allied Science (DIPAS), a branch of India's Defence Research and Development Organisation within the Indian Ministry of Defence. Dr. Ilavezhagen (director, DIPAS) said a conclusion on the survival mechanism would be drawn only after critically analyzing the reports of tests carried out during April 22-May 6, which may take up to several months. The researchers stated that, although people are known to survive longer than two weeks without food or water, they were surprised at the lack of urine or stool production.[33] Two extensive testing periods have been taken to examine the functioning of Prahlad Jani's physiology in 2003 and in 2010 in Sterling Hospital (NABH & NABL[34] accredited hospital and lab), Ahmedabad, Gujarat. The team of doctors from Ahmedabad from various specialties joined as co-investigators. Coordinating agencies including SRISTI[35], the Gujarati government and other consulting doctors had been involved to assure the highest standard of scientific procedure[clarification needed].[36] In recent Press Release the investigators officially declared their intent to continue the scientific analysis after the tests based on the collected data for approximately 3 months.[37]
In 2010, a team of researchers kept Jani under round-the-clock surveillance for 15 days. The only condition Mr. Jani set for the team was not to carry out any “invasive” tests that would require him to consume water or any other fluid.[33] The team reported that he did not consume any food or water during this time, although they could not comment on his claim of having been able to survive in this way for several years.[36][38] The study concluded that Prahlad Jani lived healthily without either food or water, and had passed no urine or stool,[39] with no need for dialysis.[40]
Interviews with the involved doctors/researchers speak of strict observation routine and relate that round-the-clock observation was insured by multiple CCTV cameras and subject of tests was taken out for MRI, USG, and X-ray examination and exposure to sun under continuous video recording.[41] As per official press release, Jani's only contact with any form of fluid was during gargling and bathing beginning from 5th day of study.[42]. The doctors measured the fluid that was spit out.[43]
The case has attracted criticism, both after 2003 tests and after the recent 2010 tests, with many suspecting some sort of deception or oversight on the side of researchers who conducted the documented tests. Sanal Edamaruku, president of the Indian Rationalist Association, criticized the experiment for allowing Jani to move out of a certain CCTV camera's field of view, meet devotees and leave the sealed test room to sunbathe. Edamaruku felt that the regular gargling and bathing activities were not sufficiently monitored,[44] and accuses Jani of having had some "influential protectors" who denied Edamaruku permission to inspect the project during its operation.[44].
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 22, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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Karl- The sciences reveal that life at base is physics and chemistry. And a successive buildup of these in "anabolic" systems. There's no getting around it- this conclusion. This conclusion or in different terms decision-making is made all the stronger the greater a person's so-called science span, too.
The mistake you make here is in believing that only through science and physics can a human being really and truly "know" anything real, and that all and everything was sourced by that which science and chemistry can, at least in theory, explain and know, and that if (fill in the blank) lies outside that purview, "it" is wo wo magic and delusional superstition and hogwash - because "Where is the physical evidence?" It's an old saw, reaching back to the positivists (circa 1900).
It might never occur to some people that science and chemistry are fantastic tools, but they are really and truly tools, and like all tools, they do not have infinite applications. That means that the map is not, in fact, the territory.
Absolute, all-or-nothing thinking remains a thought distortion no matter if you're talking about fundamentalist scientists or fundamentalist Christians. It goes back to what Karl was talking about per the emotional need to be right, and we all have that, for sure. For one thing I do agree with Craig about is that we never transcend our humanness.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 22, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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"The mistake you make here is in believing that only through science and physics can a human being really and truly..."
Well, I could be wrong. But it IS the working model I've used in my own practice of living. For a long time now. And it IS the "working model" I intend to go forward with- till a better one, one way or another, is revealed to me.
Look, my level of confidence in any particular model (for how the world works) doesn't need to be 100.00% before I support it. So let's just say it's 92% for sake of this discussion. That sure beats the sh#t (or stuffing, if you're sensitive) out of Abrahamica's model (for how the world works) which I'd personally rank no higher in "level of confidence" than 10-15%.
"Absolute, all-or-nothing thinking..."
Perhaps change your perspective a bit in this matter in regard to one's working models and their use. "Absolute, all-or-nothing thinking" does not characterize MY use of a "working model" or models (for how the world works or how life works) in order to get on with my practice in the "practice" of living.
"...we never transcend our humanness."
Agree.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 22, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
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Here's a thought game for all believers to contemplate:
Outside of the human mind where is/how is the need/necessity of God exhibited?
Is deity a prerequisite for corporeal matter?
Isn't the realization of complexity in nature strictly a human observation?
Isn't God an imprisoned creation in the mind of man as a function of reconciliation?
The only assurances for God's existence I've seen on this thread have been deeply idiosyncratic and personal prejudices that translate into a simple I know and you don't. Certainly it is always a leap to fly from the reality of mystery to the existence of deity.
What I read here is my emotions tell me, my transcendental prowess informs me, my personal experience informs me, existence is a dream and my dream informs me. Me, me my, my, I, I, I know because I can imagine it.
Of course all belief in deity stems from an interior knowing that belies sensory experience, or at least verifiable, repeatable sensory experience.
Of all the sentient creatures in this strange world of ours how many species exhibit some knowledge of God, They certainly all exhibit a need to eat, and sleep, to mate and even to love, but only man seems to require the assurance that his life is endless.
The Human ego is with out bounds and its greatest metaphor is the very Gods and Goddesses humanity has created. First there was man and the word was with man and man created God out of the unbearable fear of self awareness. If you want to see deity in this world look in the mirror.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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First was the car and the car created man to create itself .....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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God could not create a car... only human beings create cars the same way they created God.
Please, point to one non living machine that uses precisely repetitive structures that exists on this planet and wasn't created by man.
If the world were full of non living machines constructed around precise tolerances and these machines were scattered around the planet you might have a point.
Human creations are, for the most part, distinctly different than those found in nature.
What humanity can do is to perceive in nature the implication of ideal forms like perfect circles, right triangles and such and make them real in much the same way that the mystery of life implies/elicits the idea of God.
Ideal forms do not exist in nature and there's a real possibility neither does God. Instead, these things exist only because we manufacture them.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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Went right over the top your heads. You fell for it.
And by the responses you're giving you reveal yourselves for what you are.
Never underestimate what you're up against .......
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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cool old yogi. i'm paranormal gullible, but why not believe it for the time being? he doesn't have the look of a liar.
i wonder if largo would think of that as an adventure.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 22, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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i like paul better when he lightens up. maybe i havta start talking about 9/11 again.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 23, 2010 - 08:13am PT
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You do realize this is a temporary place(Paradise)and that Jesus will return and resurect our bodies to be joined with our spirit/soul and He is going to set up His Kingdom here on earth for 1,000 years. Just think of all the climbing you could do in 1,000 years! And you believe this why?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 23, 2010 - 08:52am PT
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rrrADAM,
I have not ready the thousands of posts prior, but I take it you have come to the conclusion that the Bible is made up. You sight the trinity, and the 4th century. I take then it are referencing the Council of Nicea, and understand full well what it was about. Yes, and no here... I believe that there is some historical accuracy in some parts of the Bible with lots of made up stuff thrown in... It makes for much better reading, and let's face it... The OT is also a history of the Hebrews to a great extent. Same goes for trying to write the history of Jesus. Problem is, like the game telephone, after the story was told around campfires, over generations, it changed to more reflect what the tellers 'wanted' the world to be like, and it was an 'oral tradition' LONG before it was written down, THEN translated and reinterpreted (edited), over and over and over again... Ever make a copy, of a copy, of a copy... You start to lose a lot of resolution, and when people try to bring it back, they have to fill in the gaps themselves, and they tend to fill in the gaps with 'the way THEY see things'. Just look at the KJV, as there was specific instruction given to the translaters and scribes that what they wrote needed to align with the realatively new Church of England.
Was that a consipracy or not? No. There were many reasons why the Council was convened, and one of them was for the Early Church to formalize a stance on some sticky questions/inconsistancies... Who Jesus prayed to being one of them, as if Jesus is God, then he can't opray to himself... The best they could do is the concept of the Trinity.
Did Constantine put that together for political control or not? I don't think so.
Was he even a believer? History shows that he became a believer, and it was his conversion (and actions on behalf of Christianity) that sparked the rapid growth of Christianity in that era, and on. Through him, it became the 'State Religion', like Islam is in Iran, for example. It was also through him that Sunday became the day of Christian worship, and Dec 25th became associated with Jesus' B-Day. (See Sol Invictus)
If then the bible was edited in the 4th century and certain books were left out (Book of Thomas to name one). Who said the book was edited in the 4th century? I didn't. What is now the NT was pretty much as is (Books) by the middle of the 3rd century.
Then is it fair to say that the whole bible is made up? Again, see two replies above regarding this... More below...
If you answer is yes, then what kind of people would make this up? See above... For decades after the death of Jesus, only oral stories were going around, and with each telling it got more 'fantastic'. Some decided to write their own version, in the NT, most scholars believe it was Mark first, with Matthew and Luke being written using Mark and the Q Doc as a guide. (See the Synoptic Gospel Problem). Also, Matthew's Koine Greek was pretty weak, and he spoke no Hebrew... The two main versions of the OT at the time... He scowered through the OT looking for any and all ways to 'spin' Jesus into the old Prophecies (E.g., riding into town on an ass AND A FOAL, born of a virgin [a mistranslation, as the Hebrew text uses the wrod for 'young maiden', and the word for virgin is not even close... Mind you, this is from a culture that was obsessed with the sexuality of a woman, and would use the word for virgin if that's what was said... from this 1 mistranslation, the "MYTH" of virgin birth was born and perpetuated, look it up], I can list MANY other obvious fails at tryiing to spin Jesus into OT prophecies if you like)
John... Most scholars agree that John was a frickin loon, and dismiss almost everything he has to say... Yet the Fundies rely heavily on his writings.
(See Jesus Seminar for a nice summary and cross section of what scholars, historians, and theologions believe, and why)
I don't think there was any malice at all in 'why' they did this, but the 1 person more than any responsible for Christianity "as it is" is Saul/Paul ("Pauline"), as he even competed with James the Just (brother of Jesus?) for control over the direction the Church was going to go, as James had very different ideas, and all of his writings are curiously not included in the cannonized NT.
Note that the story of the NT goes well beyond the 'misinformed traditional belief' that it was written by eye-witnesses to the events... It wasn't, as NOT one of the writers of the NT knew Jesus before he was nailed to the cross... Perhaps some of the Gnostic texts were written by people who were eye-witnesses and knew Jesus, but they were not included... It was the Early Church Fathers, many of whome wrote epistles (some included, some not), that formalized the current NT, and they did this to suit what THEY wanted Christianity to be, and that became for the most part the Catholic Church (the Authority). Remember, that for the 1st 75% of Christian history, it was pretty much all a Catholic thing... They were the Church for all that time, and it was they who guided the beliefs of Xians through all that time.
So... Even though many Protties and Fundies will deny this, greater than 90% of what they believe comes from the Catholic Tradition, MADE by those Early (Catholic) Church Fathers, and later Councils. We have a few [relatively] newer 'church fathers' (Martin Luther [16th century], Protties; Increase and Cotton Mathers [18th century], Rapture; John Darby [19th century], Dispensationalism; Phillip Johnson, Ken Ham [late 20th century], Intelligent Design / Young Earth Creationism)
(Note - You can trace a line all the way back through all of those people to the Early Church Father, with each newer one reinterpreting (editing) the beliefs of their predicessors.
Again, no malice, but definitely control and advancement of THEIR ideas.
And why? Human nature.
As I wrote much earlier...
EVERY single Christian denomination there is split off from another because THEY thought they were more moral and righteous than the group they were splintering from. Every one! So we can think of this like a tree, [generally] with Catholicism as its big thick trunk, higher up it splits into 2, the East/West schism, then later, especially in the West, into many thousands of convoluted branches, each getting thinner. Dig into the soil though, and we see that its roots are in other religions and pagan beliefs that predate Jesus and even Judaism, but many won't look that deep... They focus only on their branch.
The Fundies of today are on a pretty thin branch. But, of course, they confidently believe that they are more moral and righteous than the rest of the tree... They look back at the tree, dirt, other trees, and all around and say, "Wrong, wrong, wrong! You are all going to Hell!"
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:02am PT
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Ha! Here's Tony writing about Largo on another thread-
"his writing often shows a lack of discipline and tends to run way long... as i said previously, i don't think he's digested that stuff yet, and that may be why he isn't making sense here."
If that aint the pot calling the kettle black.
da fruct is nothing but a rotten snitch. anyone dealing with him needs to remember that. i've promised him the pink belly every snitch deserves and i hope dr. f will hold him down because we had a good thing going on that other thread. our only hope is that largo won't look for it. anyone else wanting to join in on the pink belly is welcome--i won't hog the belly slaps.
is fructose transfat? got GMOs? might want to wear gloves.
the reason i'm bringing this up is that rrradam runs way longer here than largo does writing about climbing. something needs to be done about that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:07am PT
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Paul, here's a "thought game" for you:
If there were no minds with the power of memory or the power of imagination, would the universe have a past or future?
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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the reason i'm bringing this up is that rrradam runs way longer here than largo does writing about climbing. something needs to be done about that. Forgive me, as I can be dense at times.
Can you explain that to me, as it went over my head.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:42am PT
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Great Question. Like the tree falling in the forest making a "noise" even though it is not "heard." Past and future must exist even though they might not be perceived. I would say it is the universe that constructs the mind and not the other way around.
What validates us as observers of the universe is the very fact that we are its product.
And this is the reason I trust careful sensory observation and reason as the real keys to understanding and knowledge.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:04am PT
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"a word to the wise is sufficient"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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And this is the reason I trust careful sensory observation and reason as the real keys to understanding and knowledge.
The question then becomes how do you define sensory observation? We all know of the five gross senses but what about those that are more subtle, that some may have and others do not, such as sensitivity to barometric pressure changes and electro-magnetism, the ability to see human energy fields? What about the latent senses within everyone that simply aren't activated in most, known as Chi to acupuncturists and martial artists and as Chakras and Kundalini to yogis?
I would argue that Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism have developed careful sensory observations regarding these but most in the West don't yet know about them. Western mystics have had similar experiences but have generally thought it was the result of following one particular religion, not realizing that the Eastern faiths have experienced the same and have a much more developed methodology for producing and observing these phonomena?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:10am PT
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Jan wrote-
"The question then becomes how do you define sensory observation?"
This is where taking courses in control engineering, telemetry, information science, general engineering is a real eye opener.
These are full-on well-developed fields. With unbelievable explanatory power. The fact that more of the population isn't savvy in them, and in electronics in general, is probably one of the largest sources of differences between people and their views.
For those with this experience, consider: Without experience in these areas, without experience working with transducers, bandwidth, amplifier gain, pattern recognition, signal processing, multiplexing, and a hundred other examples that electronics engrg reveals... why wouldn't many if not most of the realities- that these concepts describe and shed light on- be a mysterious blur?
Indeed!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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Paul writes
And this is the reason I trust careful sensory observation and reason as the real keys to understanding and knowledge.
Nothing could be more easily proven as limited as sensory observation. Our senses are only capable of receiving a certain bandwidth of the spectrum of energy. We have advanced knowledge of sounds our ears can't hear, and light our eyes can't see. Now science has extra-sensory tools to expand our senses but no way to guarantee that there aren't vast spectrums that their tools can't yet measure nor scientists suspect
The world is not as we see it. Science and Religion should agree on that.
peace
karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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Nobody disagrees with that Karl.
Paul, couldn't agree more. Except perhaps...
"Past and future must exist even though they might not be perceived."
I would just add: without a perception system, there wouldn't be any perceived "temporal length" to time. That is kinda weird.
EDIT How about... must exist as concepts to a mind designed to perceive them... ???
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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Fructose-
How about expounding on what you've said above about electronics and engineering. Give those of us who haven't studied it some concrete examples of what you mean?
Thanks!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:37am PT
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"o, them golden slippers ...
"kundalini serpents ..."
interesting, jan--a whole community of mystics going among catholics--serious mystics, spending most of the day with god. i'm not sure how often they have to eat food.
back when, we were told this was dangerous territory, you'll be dodging the devil, only a few have gotten there like theresa of avila, st. john of the cross. but then people kept talking about roy campbell. who was roy campbell? a bad boy poet in english from south africa who once punched stephen spender in the nose for being a communist. he winds up in spain, translating john of the cross's poetry, becoming part of the franco-gaudi culture. his wife said he would spend many happy moments down by the river, communing with god.
spender, btw, refused to press assault charges. "he's a great poet--we must try to understand."
trick question: who was the most spiritual, the catholic mystic who saw god all the time or the atheistic communist with a tad of forebearance?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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Jan- that's asking a lot. I don't know, we'll see. Like I said these are full-on courses. (I'm home today repairing a 35 year old water line.) But rest assured these subjects are not complicated as the paper Weschrist pointed to (he must be working on PhD or something theoretical) and there are good elementary clear books in all the fields.
Weschrist- No way do the subjects I mentioned above need to be that complicated, abstract, mathematical, theoretical. What are you trying to do, make people's heads hurt. Shame on you!
BITD, early experience with info science, transmission, bandwidth, amplification, volage, current, electromagnetic spectrum, waves, transducers, etc began with trips to Radio Shack. Radio Shack, bitd, was very different from the Radio Shack of today, and was one of my stepping stones to a electronics control engrg degree in college.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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your last line there, doc--koan of the week.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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Dr F finally gets it correct:
"God being everything and doing everything, but also being nothing, and doing nothing at the same time"
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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weschrist, stop messing with us. put it into words we can understand. i'll be you can't.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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maybe i'll do it for you. chaos has a mathematical basis. there are mathematical paradigms for an observer looking for negative entropy in any given system.
close? hey, i don't know jack. make it better. but then tell us what it has to do with this discussion.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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i'm gonna paste in the whole text of andrew marvell's "to his coy mistress". it's public domain and there won't be any problems. plus it's way shorter than a rrradam post.
coyness is becoming in your girlfriend, not among us half-educated trying to have an intellectual discussion. jan is the only woman here and she seems the least coy of all.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
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The world is not as we see it. Science and Religion should agree on that.
I don't agree with that. The world is as we see it. It's an incomplete picture, but that doesn't make what we see not true.
I am incredibly impressed by the legions of people who have contributed to our understanding of the univserse based on reason with lot's of hard work. I am disgusted when these people have been persecuted for promoting the truth.
I keep looking and learning about new ways to look at things but it has always turned out to be bunk; poor conclusions, poor arguments, wishful thinking.
I want to believe in Chi. I studied martial arts. It seems to have a basis in physics. Kirlian photography seemed to prove it. Accupuncture seems to use it. But Kirlian photography turns out to be bunk. And a recent study suggests accupunture is just stimulating the bodies natural pain killers. So the search continues...
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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And this is the reason I trust careful sensory observation and reason as the real keys to understanding and knowledge. I agree with this.
Unfortunately, many simply ignore their observation and reason in favor of "woo".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Fet wrote-
"I don't agree with that. "
It's a question of context and degree.
There is (1) reality and (2) perception of reality. They are different. However I get what you're saying, too, from the perspective you're looking at it. But you should be able to get the other idea, too, from that perspective.
The world is not exactly as we perceive it. A classic example. In reality the sky isn't blue, a carnation isn't red. Blue and red are perception. The "reality" is that they reflect waves at 4,000 and 7,000 angstroms respectively. That was the point. And that all makes perfect sense when one takes into account our brains are evolved information processing and body control systems. Capable of error but also capable of mapping reality very well and responding to the reality very well. At least in some of us. Alex Honnold's control system (brain circuitry, nerves and muscles) recently just did very well enabling him to achieve two climbing ascents in record time all more or less error free. Outstanding.
EDIT To Add:
But hopefully Karl (the originator of the quote) also sees you can take these principles too far, over the top, into the ridiculous. And a lot of people are tempted to do this. This is where a solid science and engineering education- esp across multiple fields if possible- serves wonderfully in grounding a person.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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plus it's way shorter than a rrradam post. Ahhh... Now I get it. Touche.
But also know that the devil is in the details, and trying to get it all in a short quip often fails in the grand scheme of things.
Paying attention to, and offering only short quips, is what leads many to just go with "God did it", and/or "9/11 Conspiracy". Why? Because the rebuttles for these are often very detailed, and 'believers' don't want to get into the details of things unless it supports what they 'wanna think'... While many think of themselves highly, they tend to suffer from intellectual laziness in looking at the other side.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 23, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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Is The Universe Merely a Statistical Accident?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-larry-dossey/spiritual-living-is-the-u_b_621261.html
Where scientists such as Weinberg, Monod and Dennett see pointlessness and despair in science, as we have seen, other scientists see pattern, direction and meaning. For example, the eminent physicist John Archibald Wheeler said:
"Science ... at first sight seems to have no special platform for man, mind or meaning. Man? Pure biochemistry! Mind? Memory modelable by electronic circuitry! Meaning? Why ask after that puzzling and intangible commodity? What is man that the universe should be mindful of him? ... s not man an unimportant bit of dust on an unimportant planet in an unimportant galaxy in an unimportant region somewhere in the vastness of space? No! The philosopher of old was right! Meaning is important, even central." (1)
The British physicist Paul Davies is also astounded by the sheer unlikelihood of human life, and he suggests that something else might have been going on to tip things in our favor:
"The origin of life on Earth ... could well have been the result of a stupendous chemical fluke. [However,] ... computing the raw odds quickly shows that even the simplest known cell is so unlikely to form by accident it wouldn't happen twice in the entire observable universe. Or in a trillion similar universes ... Perhaps life's origin wasn't a freak event after all, but the automatic outcome of inherently bio-friendly laws of nature." (2)
In his book The Cosmic Jackpot: Why Our Universe Is Just Right for Life, (3) Davies finds in the fairy tale of Goldilocks and the Three Bears a potent metaphor for expressing the weird fit between the universe and life. The Three Bears story first appeared when the English poet Robert Southey composed it for his 1837 book The Doctor. (4) In the story, a family of three bears -- mother, father, baby -- live in a house in the forest. One day, having cooked porridge and waiting for it to cool, they go for a stroll in the woods. Goldilocks finds the house, enters, and meddles with things -- chairs, beds, and porridge. She finds the adult bears' beds and chairs "too hard" or "too soft," their porridge "too hot" or "too cold." But the baby bear's bed, chair and porridge are "just right." The bears return and discover that Goldilocks is asleep in the baby bear's bed, after having eaten all the baby's porridge.
The parallels are telling, says Davies. The conditions that life encountered in the universe proved "just right." If the known natural laws had been a greater or lesser value than what they are, the universe, like the porridge, would literally be either too hot or too cold to accommodate life as we know it. The stars would burn too brightly or not at all; or they would have collapsed rather than exploded, thus failing to scatter the chemical detritus across the universe that ultimately supported life. If the difference in mass between a proton and neutron were not exactly what it is, life-sustaining chemistry would not have been possible. If all these just-right characteristics were not present on Earth 3.5 billion years ago, we would not be here to reflect on them. (5)
The distinguished physicist Freeman Dyson suggests that life is so improbable, and the physical characteristics of the universe are so finely tuned to accommodate it, that in some sense the universe "knew we were coming." (6) As a consequence of this cosmic foreknowledge, by the time life arose, conditions in the cosmos were ready for it. The table was set -- all life had to do was show up.
Sir Fred Hoyle, one of the twentieth century's most respected cosmologists, seems to agree with the idea that the universe knew life was on its way. Reflecting on the fine-tuning of the conditions necessary for the universe to bring forth life, he suggested that the universe looks like a "put-up job," as if someone had been "monkeying" with the laws of physics, getting ready in advance for the appearance of life. (7,8)
But this is a minority view within cosmology and science in general. Most scientists believe there is no mystery that needs explaining. Life, mind and consciousness are a big fat statistical accident. Given infinite time, the improbable is bound to occur. We're here because of pure, dumb luck. There are no patterns or meaning behind the scenes. This dour position reminds me of the puckish comment of Gertrude Stein: "There ain't no answer. There ain't going to be any answer. There never has been an answer. That's the answer." (9)
Forfeiting Consciousness
There's an even drearier little secret that veteran scientists never let kids in on -- that if they enter science, they have to check their minds at the door. The reason is that mind, as most people think about it, does not exist in conventional science, because the expressions of consciousness, such as choice, will, emotions, and even logic are said to be brain in disguise. As astronomer Carl Sagan put it, "[The brain's] workings -- what we sometimes call mind -- are a consequence of its anatomy and physiology, and nothing more." (10) Nobelist Francis Crick in his 1995 book The Astonishing Hypothesis was equally explicit, saying, "'You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased it: 'You're nothing but a pack of neurons.'" (11) Or, as Marvin Minsky, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology cognitive scientist and artificial intelligence expert, put it more crudely, "The brain is just a computer made of meat." (12) Crick went further. In his subsequent book Of Molecules and Men, he wrote, "The ultimate aim of the modern movement in biology is to explain all biology in terms of physics and chemistry" (13) -- to analyze, in other words, the meat. And lest there be no doubt about where he stands, philosopher Dennett says, "We're all zombies. Nobody is conscious." (14)
Try selling that to a teenager contemplating a career in science and see what happens.
Novelist Arthur Koestler poked fun at these positions by taking aim at Rene Descartes, the seventeenth-century philosopher who was extraordinarily influential in establishing the notion of a mindless body. "If ... Descartes ... had kept a poodle, the history of philosophy would have been different," Koestler wrote. "The poodle would have taught Descartes that contrary to his doctrine, animals are not machines, and hence the human body is not a machine, forever separated from the mind ... " (15)
This morose, meaningless side of science is never openly presented to young students contemplating a lifetime in science. They usually sniff it out later on, after a career choice has been made. I know of no studies that assess the impact of these dark views on young scientists when they encounter them. Are they negatively affected? Do they adopt a chin-up attitude and soldier on, having traveled too far on the science path to turn around? Or -- most commonly, I believe -- do they schizophrenically partition their psychological, spiritual and scientific lives into separate domains in a desperate attempt to find balance, silently suffering the jagged contradictions the rest of their life?
Purists insist that science is neutral on matters of meaning; the world is what it is. Whatever meaning we find in the world comes from us, not the world itself. We read meaning into the world, not from it. This sword cuts two ways; if meaning should not be imputed to the universe, neither should meaninglessness. It is a plain fact that scientists in general, peering into the same universe and aware of the same set of facts, see meaning in different ways, ways that are not part of science itself. No scientist has ever possessed a meaning meter. Therefore the proper approach, it would seem, would be to declare questions of meaning beyond the purview of science, and to cease imposing one's personal view as the official way the universe should be interpreted. This would give students and young scientists a fighting chance to find their own path where meaning and purpose are concerned, and not be bullied by senior scientists who ought to know better.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
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Check this picture out...
Big picture here:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0610/newrings_cassini_big.jpg
It is a picture of Saturn taken from Cassini when it was behind the planet, realtive to the Sun, thus it's backlit.
Now, see that little spec of blue just over center, on the left, just outside of the last brightest inner ring?
That's us... The Earth!
Paraphrasing and adding to what Carl Sagan wrote of a very similar 'Pale Blue Dot':
That's us! All of history, past and present, human and geological, has taken place on that little dot. Every confident religion, past and present, every dictator, war, etc... ALL OF OUR HUMAN HISTORTY, and long before were were even here, happened on that little dot, floating, unremarkably in the vastness of space.
Now, paraphrasing what Carl's wife once said of that 'Pale Blue Dot':
Imagine a similar blue dot, circling a distand star, inhabitted by people who confidently believe that the entire universe was created, JUST FOR THEM. What would we think about those beings?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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Spirit I understand what your are saying, but I would think our stating of our perceptions inherently includes the reality behind it.
The sky IS blue. Blue means it reflects the wavelength of light that corresponds to perception of blue in a normal human eye.
Our perception of time is probably one of the most important factors in our understanding of the world. Is it very subjective and subject to differences in reality vs. perception? Perhaps. It would seem our perception of time has been modeled on the enviorment and matter that make us up. The basis of our measurement and experience of time is days, months, years; all based on our environment. There is a duration for the chemical reactions that make up our bodies. Other beings may experience time quite differently than us. But I don't think that would change the fundamental nature of the universe for them.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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Ti was written: "And this is the reason I trust careful sensory observation and reason as the real keys to understanding and knowledge."
One of the great paradoxes discovered in the so-called recovery movement is that "knowledge counts for nothing" so far as the transformational process goes. Knowledge renders you a very well analyzed problem, but no escape from it. This underscores the notion that spirituality is something that you do, not something that you noodle. Like they say, noodling "God" is like dancing about engineering. The two are unrelated because spiritual non-stuff is not ideas or beliefs or feelings or any content per se, nor is is some non-thing that the brain "does."
JL
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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Adding to what Fet said...
Even the ticking of time is not static and constant... It is dynamic, according to GR and SR, and this is an accepted FACT. Even the GPS Satellites need to be time corrected due to time dilation in order for the system to work properly.
Reality is not always what we percieve, but we can understand it... Even to the degree that we can exploit it. Thing is, it takes a desire to understand, then knowledge and reason TO understand. Many lack the desire to really understand, thus they just deny reality.
The above is a good example, as I know many that deny "time dilation" is real, and they will not even really consider the evidense, as they have no desire to, thus they deny reality.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
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Norton--great to see you posting!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:13pm PT
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rrrAdam. Nice. Love that photo. In my opinion, that photo might go down as the best ever. Ever, ever, ever. It just seems to speak volumes to everything. When you can, catch Carolyn Porco's speeches (many on the internet) relating to this photo, she's the head scientist on the team, they're inspiring.
Fet- Good post, I get it, I agree with all of it.
EDIT
So based on everything we're all saying, rrrAdam too, it leaves me with more respect for the evolved brain (as control system, info processor, environmental transducer, etc.) than ever.
How close it maps reality, how it learns through trial and error, how spot on it delivers, how little it errs all things considered was just shown, evinced, in Alex Honnold's climbing ascents, too. Amazing.
EDIT 11:24a rrrAdam- Agree. I have that in a poster on my bathroom wall.
I know, post those pics on the "What does God look like" thread to stir things up. (Stretching the definition of God for sure. For those who are into that.)
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pa
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Dr. F,
I am getting more and more fond of you
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Dr. F wrote-
Billions upon billions of Galaxies
How does God do it? Even harder, how does God Jehovah do it. Afterall, he was just a local Mesopotamian god. -Who might not even be around, or alive, anymore.
-Who made the lifespans of dogs too short.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
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Who made the avodcado pit too big.
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jun 23, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Billions upon billions of Galaxies
How does God do it?
Simple... MAGIC!
"...a careful reading of older texts, particularly those concerned with the universe itself, shows that the authors invoke divinity only when they reach the boundaries of their understanding. They appeal to a higher power only when staring into the ocean of their own ignorance."
~Neil deGrasse Tyson
"The human understanding is no dry light, but receives an infusion from the will and affections; whence proceed sciences which may be called "sciences as one would." For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes. Therefore he rejects difficult things from impatience of research; sober things, because they narrow hope; the deeper things of nature, from superstition; the light of experience, from arrogance and pride, lest his mind should seem to be occupied with things mean and transitory; things not commonly believed, out of deference to the opinion of the vulgar. Numberless, in short, are the ways, and sometimes imperceptible, in which the affections color and infect the understanding."
~Francis Bacon
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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and yet, latest evolutionary science and astronomy have upped the ante.
because we know so much about evolution, and because it apparently didn't happen elsewhere in our solar system, and because SETI hasn't picked up squat, and because newly discovered planets seem to indicate that the norm is a fat jupiter in the orbit of mercury, no place for life to happen ...
lots of "becauses", but they lead to a gloomier picture. it was first painted by stephen jay gould and seems to be confirmed by his competitor in evolutionary theory, simon conway-morris, who tells us, maybe one life planet to a galaxy?
you have to temper that a little. scientists love to leap ahead with speculative projections based on the most recent discovery. still, this is the picture which seems to be accumulating. heard otherwise?
which means you can look ga-ga for only so long at rrrad's space photography. they're lovely, maybe it's the face of god to some, but we're still here on a really lonely planet. this amazing consciousness is happening here and may be happening somewhere in each of those galaxies in that photo, but they're not happening on alpha centauri or anyplace you could paddle a spaceship to someday.
which makes the god question important again. don't get mad, i still think it's an open question, and a fair one. morris suggests this too. i'm willing to be fairly reductionist myself, with stipulations. science doesn't get to work on things unless it stops believing and reduces. but most people don't have the negative stamina to be totally nihilistic all their lives. i think michael schermer developed that during his long bicycle races.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 23, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Dirtbag, there is intelligent life in the universe, on this thread.
I gave up posting on the Repug thread awhile back.
I am convinced the Pubs are the dumbest sons of bitches in America.
Not one of them, not one, has the intellect of an eighth grader.
You and I have beaten them without mercy for 20,000 posts of hard facts proving them wrong.
Their brains are immature, not capable of rational discourse.
Much like how little goes on in the heads of the creationists and literal bible thumpers on this thread.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 23, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Largo: Healyje: "Seems to me you might have gotten things off the ground a little smoother if you had simply stated upfront that you believe there are [objective] "powers" which exist separate from and beyond 'normal' human experience."?
I didn't say that I "believe" any such thing, especially that these "powers" exist "separate from" anything. Where would they be
Well, then when you said "powers higher than yourself" what did you mean? How can a power be 'higher than yourself' and of yourself? I don't know and that seems like some pretty twisted logic for a philosopher. Or is this a 'universal', overarching power we're all suffused with sort of deal? That would still imply either a) it's exists apart from us, or b) that it is only expressed by us as a human 'connecting web' sort of deal.
Again, just trying to pin down exactly what it is you're talking about here so a somewhat less cryptic conversation might be had.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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Ya know Norton, all that we and a few others have done is simply give them facts.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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had we but world enough, and time
this coyness, lady, were no crime
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 23, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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Truth?
They can't handle the truth.
Snakes in the grass.
Edit, Dirtbag please post up our favorite hottie cleavage picture.
It is the ultimate example of evolution.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
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god is a hole in the sky.
a flaw in an otherwise perfect plane.
god is (nothing more than) man's fear, manifest in a silly idea.
when the wind rolls off of the tongue of the devil, god is french kissing whores.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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I'm somewhat amazed no one has commented on the role of, and our dependency on, stable neurochemistry to be engaging in this conversation at all (let alone it's probable contribution to why many of us 'need' to climb).
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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Of course it's easy to read people you are in agreement with, but I really like and appreciate Largo's posts on this thread because he is one of the few people I have read that explores things perhaps beyond our understanding in a straightfoward way that I as a layman can understand and he doesn't talk in absolutes with nothing to back it up. And when people call him on things he explains what he meant and/or backs it up, or let's us know it was a question, not a statement.
Karl's posts are likewise a pleasure to read because although I may not agree with all his views they come from a place of kindness and seem non-judgemental.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 23, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
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I agree Largo has been attempting to do some interesting 'third rail' exploring, but I don't think he's been "straightforward" about it, though that's likely been because he's been trying to thread a needle through otherwise mainstream turf.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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I've been thinking about this for a bit, too:
The causal link HAS TO BE there, totally unbroken, for material reductionism to be a viable theory. You have here a totally mechanistic system of causation. It cannot, at any stage, fail to act like a machine. I was forcing the conversation in the hopes of probing those places and conditions to where the mechanism apparently seems to break down, or to where other factors need to be introduced to "explain" how A lead to B leads to C.
I believe it is not a reasonable representation of my thinking, and therefore I must not be a "material reductionist," but I think it is a straw man argument, and one that I failed to respond to in a comprehendible manner (but if you're brave, it's posted up in this thread).
Largo is saying that all machines work in a classical manner... a machine is a familiar concept to most people. That a "material reductionist" would then insist that we could build a machine, say with gears, that executed the steps of the brain to get to a thought.
His argument would then be that since we cannot do this (which we cannot do) that there is something else that goes on beyond the material.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 23, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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How else do we percieve God other than through our mind?
And there was a another post regarding the tools of science not having a direction to look for God in.
God is prior to mind and much subtle. Rational conscious mind can not touch God nor senses see God...ever. That's why Jesus said, "No man has seen God at any time"
If creation comes from God, God is likely to be the finest in the spectrum of manifestation, even before any matter, however subtle. Let's assume we live in a dream world, How would dream scientists proof the world is a dream and there is a great sleeping consciousness dreaming it?
Probably, science won't have a solid inkling of God for a long time (from our perspective...20,000 years could be nothing in geologic time) Most likely, more and more subtle phenomena will evolve into our knowledge until it becomes obvious that our minds and consciousness are linked with creation and then science will make use of tools that interface with consciousness to heal, communicate, and perceive in amplified ways. One thing leads to another just like man discovered electricity and eventually used that to unite planetary communications.
Peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 23, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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Ed wrote:
I've been thinking about this for a bit, too:
The causal link HAS TO BE there, totally unbroken, for material reductionism to be a viable theory. You have here a totally mechanistic system of causation. It cannot, at any stage, fail to act like a machine. I was forcing the conversation in the hopes of probing those places and conditions to where the mechanism apparently seems to break down, or to where other factors need to be introduced to "explain" how A lead to B leads to C.
I believe it is not a reasonable representation of my thinking, and therefore I must not be a "material reductionist," but I think it is a straw man argument, and one that I failed to respond to in a comprehendible manner (but if you're brave, it's posted up in this thread).
Largo is saying that all machines work in a classical manner... a machine is a familiar concept to most people. That a "material reductionist" would then insist that we could build a machine, say with gears, that executed the steps of the brain to get to a thought.
His argument would then be that since we cannot do this (which we cannot do) that there is something else that goes on beyond the material.
-------
MY response:
But you left out a part, Ed, namely this: "I am NOT saying that God or any super duper big man is required to "explain" how, say, atomic stirrings in the brain produce thought, only promoting looking at how material itself might not be the end-all source of "all."
Nevertheless, Ed did bite the bait I threw out there, and while it is only a tiny baby step in the direction I’m trying to move us, it does call into very tentative question a whole bunch of material reductionists that insist human consciousness in strictly mechanical/material and that it is the fruit of what is sometimes called “forward causation,” or causation that goes in a nice linear sequence from A to B to C and so forth, just as you would “produce” a widget in a widget factory. Consciousness in not so far lending itself to such explanations, and this, some experts suggest, is why computer modeling of consciousness is strictly limited, especially in terms of qualia, the fundamental human experiential element.
Now Ed did himself a disservice with the wisecrack: “A "material reductionist" would then insist that we could build a machine, say with gears, that executed the steps of the brain to get to a thought.” The insinuation is that a mechanical model, with gears, mind you, is what I am suggesting material reductionists are promoting. But I’ll give Ed that crack since I sometimes get frustrated with people and say far wonkier things.
The important thing Ed implied, IMO, is that consciousness MIGHT NOT function according to “classical” causal models, and MIGHT NOT be bound to forward causation.” What the hell does that mean? And what does it mean to friends of mine who are somewhat like Ed (science doods).
Science might say something like this – or at lest the scientists I am around entertain such ideas as possible: In QM, “advanced waves” propagate backward in time and have often been ignored as they were tentatively considered unphysical. However in life sciences, advanced waves may permit some tentative answers to the major mysteries and paradoxes.
Just a little taste, based in part on someone Ed mentioned awhile ago, Feynman by name, per his electrodynamics, specifically his “absorbers,” which coincide with advanced fields which MAY propagate backwards in time, depending on who who read.
I am NOT saying this proves there is a Christian God, or any such hogwash, or even that material did not “produce” advanced fields, or that advanced fields even exist. Only consider there might be some little evidence that classical causation – namely forward causation – is a little lacking in explaining consciousness.
That's a baby step... Nothing crazy. Just something to ponder.
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 23, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
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To push the point yet again, given the extraordinary power external substances have over our 'thoughts' when they are introduced into our 'mechanism', I should think that alone would demonstrate the deep and intrinsic connection between mechanism (material) and thought. Do we understand the details of that connection? No, then again we don't know how plants derive energy from the sun either, but we're pretty sure they do - and do it with quantum entanglement to boot which, while spooky, is not magic or supernatural.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 23, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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Is God really prior to mind?
In the interest of mind stretching possibilities consider the opposite.
Why does the notion of existence beyond the forms of sensibility and the accompanying belief in deity seem to occur so late in human evolution and develop in such a close and concurrent relationship with art?
Art is such an obvious demonstration of the ability to perceive in terms of metaphor.
Doesn't this indicate that the development of God is tied to the evolution of human cognative abilities, particularly the uniquely human ability to see and understand in terms of metaphor?
Is it possible to imagine God as metaphor?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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The mind can not function without the soul.
All intelligence comes from the soul not the mind.
The mind processes the consciousness of the soul.
You guys are fixated on the mind.
Mistakenly taking the computer hardware as the source of intelligence. (crude example)
The soul is seated within the heart along with the supersoul.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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Paul wrote-
"Is it possible to imagine God as metaphor?" I've been saying this for weeks, actually months now... but you all keep ignoring it... I even tried giving this metaphor a name... so we could talk about it and distinguish it from Jehovah or any other personal gods taken literally. But, alas, there were no takers.
I even tried making an analogy with the Grim Reaper. Still, to no effect.
Hypercrates: personification (or metaphor) of Fate or Higher Powers (of fate).
Grim Reaper: personification (or metaphor) of Death.
The only way to get traction is to distinguish the many and varous "god concepts". But there were no takers. So I concluded everyone's most interested in just jibjabbing around the fire.
Apart from this, more good points Paul.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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"It should be pointed out that science stopped talking about causality long, long ago."
You better explain that one.
I've been enjoying your posts. But now I'm holding my breath.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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Grim Reaper: metaphor or personalization of death
Hypercrates: metaphor or personalization of the higher powers of fate or destiny
Everyone recognizes the Grim Reaper is an handy metaphor, even a fun metaphor, and that the world benefits by having it around. So why not Hypercrates, too?
What, is embracing a new word just too tough? If so, "bite me."
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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If Jesus was just a man, nobody is saved not even Jesus!
But if He was the sinless son of God then there is hope in no one else!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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Time to go to bed now, Gobee.
With dreams of sugar plums and fairies dancing on the heads of pins.
It still amazes me that the Grand Canyon was instantly created only 6000 years ago.
But then, that's what the bible says so it has to be true.
Good night, sweet prince.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
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I was just in a similar exchange earlier this morning, regarding communications, perspective and language.
Yeah, Randisi, I get you, I see what you're saying and the perspective. But there are other perspectives, too, and when things are looked at from many of those, the words you used above, the wording, easily leads to argument. Esp by partisan sides in a debate interested in winning.
Another point: I'm not always interested in the 100.00% certainty that many an academic mathematician or philosopher seems to require before moving forward. When it comes to better practices in the practice of living, I'm most interested in "working" models that provide me performance and a workable "level of confidence."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
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Dr. F., you have to read others' posts more. Sometimes I think you have a fixation on Largo.
I am a mechanist. I don't use the word reductionist because, like atheist, it is so pejorative. Made that way over the decades of the 20th century by naysayers and anti-evolutionists.
So I guess this means there will be some in-house fighting now?
But before I will even touch it or argue about it, there needs to be a clear distinction in terms. I don't think there is either will or capability for that on this forum. Shame, tho.
Evolution is entirely mechanistic. Evolution is entirely causal. That means life and living things, too. One past, one present, one future. Set, fixed, destiny. Even so, decision making organisms (dmo's) evolve in this mechanistic universe and ultimately this gives rise to freedom, actually different forms or kinds of freedom. Hurray.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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Gobby is off in dreamland now, so I will answer for him.
YES
YES
YES
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 23, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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But the real question for you (largo) is, why do we need them?, when we can explain life without them
You haven't explain life completely at all yet.
Saying you have means you're lying to yourself, and know it.
You know so little .....
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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Dr. F,
I like going in the path of least resistance, when I fight with God I'm sorry for it, and it's never good...
Jonah 1:5, But Jonah had gone down into the inner part of the ship and had lain down and was fast asleep.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
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Hard headed is better then hard hearted!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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the nice thing about that passage is that it covers all possibilities and gives us precise instructions on what to do. i love it when we don't have to wing it!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
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so molecular machines...
...how about flagella... it is a way that cells move, or if they're embedded, the way the move stuff...
we know, on a molecular level how this works...
In Largo's discussion, there is a well defined sequence of actions that cause the flagellum to rotate. This is bio-chemistry/physics... every bit of that is known... even if the underlying atomic activity is "quantum mechanics." But nothing spooky there, even though all the same things are going on. No need to invoke some "in between" action.
Mitochondria are another machine, a sub-cellular machine that produces ATP, adenosine triphosphate, which powers most cellular activities... the activity of ATP synthesis is another molecular step-by-step process.
Photosynthesis is also pretty much a known process... another kind of machine that transforms the energy from sunlight into chemical energy... here the interesting lesson is the way Calvin's group figured out how it worked, by tracking carbon-14 through the metabolic route in the plant during photosynthesis... step-by-step...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
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fellas, largo's trying to make grasshoppers out of you. he's getting inside your heads. i can see you starting to think his way, even though you're fighting it every inch of the way. pretty soon you'll all be zazenners, largo will be feeding you weird koans, and you'll be expecting to get smacked in the psyche with nothing, just like jesusfreaks are expecting jesus. your only hope will be for your family to engage a kidnapper/deprogrammer, but when that sucker gets hold of you he won't be able to do a thing. he'll take the money and tell your people, "nothing is wrong".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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Thank you, Ed, that was a breath of fresh air.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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Dr. F said: Largo, none of us are materialist reductionists.
When I use that term, I mean it in the sense that all and everything, and the contrary of all and everything, is sourced by material antecedents. Or if you're a real material fundamentalist, all and everything IS material, even vacuum space, which is really just "relations" between "real" things.
You can view the causation in many different ways, but who out there is about to say that they don't believe that the evolved brain is the key, required antecedent to thinking, consciousness, thought, and so forth, and the causation involved, on some fundamental level, is one-way, meaning matter in some mechanical way produces consciousness, and consciousness in no way produces matter. I don't mean this in the way that Ed facetiously described it, in the sense that you can build a "brain" replete with really special gears, pump in some undifferentiated energy stuff and grind out a few thoughts much as you crank out fatty sausage through one of those hand crankers.
Now I introduced "advanced waves" as a possible fly in the ointment of one-way or forward causation. Randisi has since introduced yet another chink in the armor - namely, that linear, forward, hard-linked causation has proven such a bust that science itself has scrapped the idea.
He wrote: "Scientists realized that it is impossible to prove conclusively with one hundred percent certainty that one event causes another. So they shifted to discussing correlations of events. For instance, lung cancer has been correlated with smoking in 65% of the cases (to pick a number out of the air). This avoids messy discussions of causality, whether multiple, backward, forward, square or round. It is also why scientists have to take so many statistics courses.
Now the question worth asking is: If it cannot be proven that one event causes another, then what does that say about material causation/ production, which is the very backbone of materialism? Put differently, consider the follow blurb:
Intuitively, causation seems to require not just a correlation, but a counterfactual dependence. Suppose that a climber performed poorly on a big wall and that the cause was his not climbing all that previous winter. To prove this, one thinks of the counterfactual - the same climber climbs the same wall under the same circumstances but having cragged out at Joshua three times a week all winter long. If one could rewind history, and change only one small thing (making the climber hone up out at Joshua), then causation could be observed (by comparing version 1 to version 2). Because one cannot rewind history and replay events after making small controlled changes, causation can only be inferred, never exactly known. This is referred to as the Fundamental Problem of Causal Inference - it is impossible to directly observe causal effects. Nevertheless, a major goal of scientific experiments and statistical methods is to approximate as best as possible the counterfactual state of the world. The belief in the counterfactual state of the world is what I call the backbone of material reductionism.
So what causes what, or are we saying that counterfactual causation is itself an overstatement in terms of being a strict mechanistic fact. Could it be that trying to recruit "God" to explain the so-far unexplainable aspects of counerfactual causation is itself a false step because counterfactual causation and mechanistic models are themselves relative, not absolute truths.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 23, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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so what?
quantum mechanics doesn't work that way, it violates one of the two: local realism or counterfactual definiteness... both of which are good approximations to the way the world work on our scale...
just not on the atomic scale
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 24, 2010 - 12:20am PT
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Though he's no physics wizard, I like Joyce's response to the notion of causation, go ahead knock your sconce against it.
"INELUCTABLE MODALITY OF THE VISIBLE: AT LEAST THAT IF NO MORE, thought through my eyes. Signatures of all things I am here to read, seaspawn and seawrack, the nearing tide, that rusty boot. Snotgreen, bluesilver, rust: coloured signs. Limits of the diaphane. But he adds: in bodies. Then he was aware of them bodies before of them coloured. How? By knocking his sconce against them, sure. Go easy. Bald he was and a millionaire, maestro di color che sanno. Limit of the diaphane in. Why in? Diaphane, adiaphane. If you can put your five fingers through it, it is a gate, if not a door. Shut your eyes and see.
Stephen closed his eyes to hear his boots crush crackling wrack and shells. You are walking through it howsomever. I am, a stride at a time. A very short space of time through very short times of space. Five, six: the nacheinander. Exactly: and that is the ineluctable modality of the audible. Open your eyes. No. Jesus! If I fell over a cliff that beetles o'er his base, fell through the nebeneinander ineluctably. I am getting on nicely in the dark. My ash sword hangs at my side. Tap with it: they do. My two feet in his boots are at the end of his legs, nebeneinander. Sounds solid: made by the mallet of Los Demiurgos. Am I walking into eternity along Sandymount strand? Crush, crack, crick, crick. Wild sea money. Dominie Deasy kens them a'.
Won't you come to Sandymount,
Madeline the mare?
Rhythm begins, you see. I hear. A catalectic tetrameter of iambs marching. No, agallop: deline the mare.
Open your eyes now. I will. One moment. Has all vanished since? If I open and am for ever in the black adiaphane. Basta! I will see if I can see.
See now. There all the time without you: and ever shall be, world without end."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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I'm with Ed, what's with the causality fixation?
Like Ed said, we didn't even know the basics of photosynthesis until 1948 and we haven't understood how it really worked until 2007 when Graham Fleming's crew sorted out the efficiencies of energy transfer via quantum entanglement. It's a breathtakingly phenomenal mechanism and process no less mircaculous than thought or consciousness - does that also mean a 'higher power' might involved?
Why is it such a big deal that we haven't closed the small gap between an arbitrary collection of neurons and a thought? Why does the fact we don't understand it yet necessitate that some 'power' has to be involved? And, given we have whole ST threads devoted to the impact of external (material) substances on our thoughts and behavior, I find it just stunning no one wants to touch that one with ten foot cheater stick. If there really were a significant 'gap' between neurons and cognition mediated by some 'wave' or 'power' or any other ethereal influence then I should think our thoughts would be far, far more resistent to the effects of external substances on our material self than they are.
I get that some folks need gods and that their understanding of themselves, their lives, and their world starts with a god, and I also get the through the inward rabbit hole path to the realm of an container space we won't call god. What I don't, and never have gotten, is why (other than not knowing things and being out of control is frightening) both gods and those unnamed spirtual container spaces are deemed to [absolutely] HAVE to exist. Why isn't the fact they work for you enough - why the need to claim they absolutely exist outside of your mind?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 24, 2010 - 01:48am PT
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what Largo is arguing is that there is no basis for causality, therefore something else has to happen "in between" to make everything the world go 'round.
But I think it is mostly a philosophical argument, as certainly there is a utility of the idea, and one that functions quite well without the need to understand what it "means."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2010 - 03:48am PT
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Ed, I get the limitations of causality and the basic ramifications of those limitations. But again, that doesn't make me want to wave a magic wand over the unknown in order to have answers, nor does it take me down a logic trail which ends in absolute or presuppositional powers, containers, or any other ethereal devices to fill either an unknown or philosophical conclusion. It's like having a discussion around ethereal conditionals as opposed to material ones.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 24, 2010 - 09:25am PT
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Psalm 144:15, Blessed are the people whose God is the Lord!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 24, 2010 - 09:32am PT
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Forced Labor is Way Cool in Gobee's Bible !!!
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 24, 2010 - 10:00am PT
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Why is the question always posed this way? Why not the reverse?: "Why is it that many people feel the need to not believe in God?" It seems that the most adamant arguments these days about the existence of God (Hitchens, etc) are by people who deny God's existence.
Another distinct question: "Why do so many people believe in God?" is different than "Why do so many people who say they believe in God get God wrong?" Belief in God requires a person to be in solidarity with -- to love, really -- the downtrodden and marginalized in society. That is a hard life to live, so most people who say they believe in God distort the message so that they can count themselves as among the believers. I also think that many people do not believe in God as a result of the hypocracy of those who claim they do. I wouldn't want to be counted among the hypocrites either.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 24, 2010 - 10:05am PT
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Tung Gwok wrote-
"Why is the question always posed this way? Why not the reverse?: "Why is it that many people feel the need to not believe in God?" That's an easy answer... Because some of us are "into" flying solo in our practice of living. It compares to climbing solo or adventuring solo or even literally flying an airplane solo. It means you're in control. And for some of us, that's important, that's what matters.
All the more important if you feel our ancient forebears got it wrong, that there is no personal God, no sentient God (e.g., Jehovah or Serapis or Zeus) out there looking out for us in the first place.
And then, taking it a step further, if you combine that with how the "traditional" faiths either directly or indirectly "yoke us" through laws or impede modernity through interference with science education, it explains why there is this "blowback" as evidenced by this thread.
Believe you me, if Jehovah or Serapis or Marduk actually existed (issue #1) as part of how the world truly works, then I'd believe in him (issue #2). But he doesn't, so I don't.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 24, 2010 - 10:11am PT
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tung, maybe you didn't read that post immediately previous to yours.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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Corn Nut says -- "It means you're in control."
You have no control.
If you have control then there would be no death.
If you have control then there would be no disease.
If you have control then you would never have to sleep.
Etc etc etc.... deluded people think they are in control ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 24, 2010 - 11:18am PT
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It's a paradox, silly. With concern (for the subject), education and understanding, the paradox resolves itself. Get with it.
Indeed, to use one of your own references, a car: A driver is at once (a) driving the car and (b) being driven by the car. He is at one and the same time (a) the driver and (b) the drivee.
But this is the most important part: Get with it. Adapt. Upgrade yourself. Till you do, you're the major philistine on this thread.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 24, 2010 - 11:35am PT
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Ed wrote: "what Largo is arguing is that there is no basis for causality, therefore something else has to happen "in between" to make everything the world go 'round.
But I think it is mostly a philosophical argument, as certainly there is a utility of the idea, and one that functions quite well without the need to understand what it "means."
Actually I'm not arguing for this, or for what H. said here: "Why is it such a big deal that we haven't closed the small gap between an arbitrary collection of neurons and a thought? Why does the fact we don't understand it yet necessitate that some 'power' has to be involved?"
What I'm questioning is A), that our experience is strictly sourced or produced by matter by way of a (eventually) strictly mechanistic, step by step model, and B) hard linked, billiard ball causation might not be the end-all explanation. The idea that I'm angling toward smuggling in "God" as a causal factor in this is not so. I've never suggested that one time here.
Never mind even dealing with the "why" factor in all of this, I think the phychological drivers of wanting to keep this all in the realm of sense data and step by step forward causation is underscored in the following:
Ed, I get the limitations of causality and the basic ramifications of those limitations. (WHAT ARE THOSE, BY TE WAY) But again, that doesn't make me want to wave a magic wand over the unknown in order to have answers, nor does it take me down a logic trail which ends in absolute or presuppositional powers, containers, or any other ethereal devices to fill either an unknown or philosophical conclusion. It's like having a discussion around ethereal conditionals as opposed to material ones.
Now muddled as this is (a “container” is not a device in the sense of “container space”), it shows us that people are generally terrified of looking at anything or any process as anything but a step-by-step, mechanical process, and that even the idea of something like Feyman’s
“advanced waves,” which MAY propagate backward in time, depending on who you read or believe, are often ignored as they were tentatively considered unphysical. What’s more, if zero-mass and “unphysical” ideas are presented, note how people will jump up and insist this is no reason to invoke “God,”as though that is what we would or are inclined to do. I think a lot of this has more to do with preserving psychological balance as opposed to looking at simple realities like – why is causation so hard to prove? What is the observer or so-called raw awareness and witness state in consciousness? What about two-way feed-back loops between qualia and the physical body?
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 11:36am PT
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A driver is at once (a) driving the car and (b) being driven by the car. He is at one and the same time.
That's Mayavadi philosophy the most dangerous philosophy of them all.
It's better to be an atheist then to preach the Mayavadi Philosophy.
Simultaneous oneness and difference is the correct platform.
You Corn Nut is the most dangerous tool here .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 24, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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The Philistine wrote-
"You have no control.
If you have control then there would be no death.
If you have control then there would be no disease.
If you have control then you would never have to sleep.
Etc etc etc.... deluded people think they are in control ......"
What a shame. Is that the inspiring wisdom you'd like to inpart to the younger generations that follow. If that is the life-affirming wisdom of your philosophy or religion, no thanks.
We're decision-making organisms (dmo's) with powers. Nature-given powers. Powers that translate to various sorts or kinds of freedom. You had the freedom to climb Reed's with a boombox, didn't you. Educate yourself and life's paradoxes resolve. Get with it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 24, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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Anyone who talks about "waves" has to know, as I pointed out above, that this is a model of reality, actually a prescription on how to calculate observables, and not necessarily a one-to-one correspondence to reality... assuming that there is such a correspondence has led to no end of confusion, especially of the philosophical bent, on what quantum mechanics is telling us...
Feynman's backwards going waves are a calculation construction, and are equivalent to other such constructions. They have a utility in predicting a physical situation which is well defined within a set of constraints. There are phenomena which cannot be captured by these particular methods.
My point is that if you want to talk about things you can't define, quantitatively, then have at it, any answer is possible. While Largo may not be advocating for "god" his construction of the universe is as valid as any other philosophical construction, all of which are essentially untestable by any rigorous definition.
To answer Largo's questions regarding the approximation of a "step-by-step" causal description of how things work, how anything works, may be the program of "material reductionism." This insistence on philosophical rigor is not the program of science, rather, science seeks to understand and explain physical phenomena, to do so the phenomena need to be defined quantitatively, and the explanation produces testable predictions. Largo's program fails to provide any quantitative description (in fact, it rejects the need to) and, in my mind, the resulting explanations of the putative phenomena (e.g. consciousness) are a muddle, a slippery frictionless expanse...
An example is an experience I'm sure we've all had, from time-to-time, when an obviously inanimate object seems to behave with intent, that is, have consciousness. It could be a car, or a sewing machine, a rock, something that "acts" in a way that we interpret as being like us... I suppose in Largo's world view, that object might actually have consciousness, but if that is so, it utterly dispenses with any meaningful definition of consciousness, it essentially takes on all of the things that we can't understand and explain... a relatively useless definition.
Physicists, I believe, do not worry about the philosophical structure of space-time, rather, the worry about how to explain physical phenomena. This often requires adopting contradictory philosophical view points, and sometimes contradictory physical view points.
Having recognized 400 years ago that this contradictions can only be resolved definitely by empirical tests, physicists abandoned pure reason as a guiding principle for physics, instead replacing it with the so called scientific method; a good definition of which is hard to find, and even harder to justify on the basis of philosophy. However, it has stood the test of time, and at it's heart has two major aspects: 1) that the hypotheses we propose be quantitatively testable and 2) that the hypotheses may be tested and is rejected if inconsistent experimental/observational results.
Very simple, really... but it builds a network of knowledge, interlocked, that spreads from the smallest space-time domains to the largest, a unity as it were... and a place where the mystery springs from the realizable combinations of the knowable, not from the murky darkness of the unknowable...
But I admit, this is all a personal aesthetic... we all choose our own path through this existence.
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pa
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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HFCS, first you say:
It means you are in control. And for some of us that's important, that's what matters.
Then you say:
A driver is at once a) driving the car and b) being driven by the car. He is at one and the same time a) the driver and b) the drivee.
Uh...who is in control, precisely?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jun 24, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
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The soul is seated within the heart along with the supersoul.
Supersoul would be a kick-ass name for a funk band.
Edit: someone already thought that: http://www.myspace.com/supersoul69
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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Largo, you're still dancing on the head of that pin you've stuck in the unknown between neurons and thought. You want to posit thoughts are not based on material events on one hand and strongly positing (albeit always indirectly) some non-material, non-god, non-form defines that gap or consciousness itself.
My sense of this is that consciousness is akin to energy in that it cannot be created or destroyed, but it is just another aspect or "thing" in the larger, borderless container that is "mind," which is itself "empty."
You then go a step further to suggest persons can and do 'tap into' that gap through meditation and doing so yields all sorts of insight (especially if you're a CalTec physist or chemist). So, just curious, are you positing the consciousness or 'mind' we each experience is an individual or shared "borderless container that is mind"? Because I've noticed I can remain [relatively] sober while my drinking companion gets shitfaced, so I'm inclined to the former or at least to some notion of context, containerization, or framing if the 'mind' is as you say.
As far as philosophy and physics of 'advanced waves' and time go I can't say I can follow the reasoning much beyond the level of SciAm's recent 'Is Time An Illusion?' article. In the end my take on it is it is all a matter of advanced tool use, semantics, and [utilitarian] perspective. And again, even if the "mind" is as ethereal as you posit, it is so remarkably sensitive to exposure to material substances, that for all 'practical' puroposes it is demonstratively, deeply, and inescapably coupled to the material regardless of any 'missing links' between the two. Or at least so far I've yet to hear any logic or argument here that can shelter the "mind" from a good bong hit.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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The soul is seated within the heart along with the supersoul.
Where is the superdupersoul seated?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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You're confusing it with the superpupersoul.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 24, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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"...even if the "mind" is as ethereal as you posit, it is so remarkably sensitive to exposure to material substances, that for all 'practical' puroposes it is demonstratively and inescapably coupled to the material regardless of any 'missing links' between the two. So far I've yet to hear any logic here yet that can shelter the "mind" from a good bong hit." -that hits the spot.
"Mine is in my BUTTHOLE..." -this one too.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 24, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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For Locker, with love:
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
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That's a mighty peculiar looking pacifier.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 24, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
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Anyone who talks about "waves" has to know, as I pointed out above, that this is a model of reality, actually a prescription on how to calculate observables, and not necessarily a one-to-one correspondence to reality... assuming that there is such a correspondence has led to no end of confusion, especially of the philosophical bent, on what quantum mechanics is telling us.
---
I have said all along that IMO, "the map is not the territory," so I too believe that there is no symbolic representation of reality, be it in language or figures or numbers or art, which perfectly corresponds to "reality" itself.
One is a mental construct, like a topo map. But the topo, no matter how accurate, will never be, say, Half Dome itself, just like no future age computer, no matter how deft with AI, will ever be yo mama.
That much said, I only wonder if Ed is suggesting that, in case of Feynman's backwards going waves, that said waves are themselves not "real" (non-material) but are merely "calculation constructions equivalent to other such constructions." Meaning that Feyman's famous waves are merely handy math formulai, and while the word "piton" refers to an actual metal dohicky, Feyman's waves are just numbers in an equation, nothing else. Is that what Feyman meant? Really?
One might argue that if something non-material like Feyman's backwards going waves are being recruited to aid in predicting and understanding "reality," then the "unseen," zero-mass,"non-material" factors - which by nature will always require symbolic representation - do in fact have a place at the table. That is, providing they are formulated by a chemist or physisist. Oherwise they will certainly lack the kind of rigorous vetting
required to rout out the wo wo snake oil boogy man voodeoo dumb ass stick-God-in-there superstitions the rest of us are so prone to indulge.
But clowning aside, one of the interesting things about all of this is that to investigate anything, we must use consciousness. Consciousness is itself not the exact same thing as material (we all seem to agree on that much), in the sense, to use Ed's example, that "waves" are not "real" (except at Waimea Bay), and that waves do not represent a one-to-one correspondence to reality. Put differently, consciousness does not represent a one-to-one correspondence to brain matter, though some sort of casual link certainly exists between consciousness and brain.
Nevertheless, we use consciousness, and the sense data available to consciousness, to investigate matter and reality. By virtue of our consciousness and intelligence, we concoct various models - from hard science/measuring to art to psychology (not hard science in my book) to philosophy, to interpret reality.
Now by some strange turn of events, some insist that what is ultimately real is matter (particles) and only matter, a contention that itself is not a particle but a thought. What's more, whenever we investigate matter itself, when at any level the phenomenon does not behave with the solidity of the Washington Monument, we have various rationalizations assuring us on the primacy of solid particles, in so far that waves are not aspects of particles - not really - but merely are handy prescriptions on how to calculate the activity of particles, particles being the only "real" things.
What's more, even though both physics and chemistry support the wave–particle duality - that is, reality exhibits both wave-like and particle-like properties - some will, to repeat myself, say that the wave-like characteristics are not real, but are mere constructs used to "describe" strange aspects of the particle, which IS real. Or, if you're into "second order" rationalizations, wave-particle duality is blamed on various limitations of the observer. Other arguments say this is all immaterial since it only applies to quantum level "reality," which is a strange testimony coming from materialist, which are all reductionists by definition, believing as they do that meta level phenomenon issue from material antecedents, but that we shouldn't and can't go too far back in the casual chain because the life we live doesn't happen on the quantum level, so that doesn't count or apply up here, and that quantum mechanics is not "saying that." And that's not to mention particle-only views (I had a class with David Boehm on this)and wave-only views. Regardless, quantum mechanics isn't saying anything about any of this: we are.
Funny thing, whenever I go into this all I'm accused of muddled thinking or working loopholes or misconstruing science or trying to smuggle "God" in when nobody is looking.
It sure is curious to consider.
JL
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 24, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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the yoga position you haven't tried yet. this could be quite helpful--you actually get to see ... nothing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 24, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
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This is now a trophy. Handed out on Real Time with Bill Maher. Funny thing is, I'd like to have one.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 24, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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This discussion is such a challenge because it seems unable to go anywhere. So I'll try again, defining as I go.
I have defined consciousness as the expectation that the present moment will be followed by another moment. And I have laid the basis for arguing we, by both training and nature, follow a design impelling us to use that coming moment doing something that allows us to survive even another moment. There is a fair amount of data on all of this.
Now it has been implied that materialists( scientists?) have yet to develop a moral compass. Let me try and define "moral compass." Just bear with me. In each moment we do things so as to survive. It is a given that we will not be able clearly to show that all the things we do are in fact designed solely for purposes of survival. There is noise embedded in all signals. So I will define my moral compass as being whatever makes me do those things not needed for survival. A person who tries to help others, a person who tries to steal Iraq's oil, and a person who murders abortion doctors each have their own distinct moral compasses. I simply define their moral compass by looking at what they do. Speaking very broadly a part of the scientist's moral compass is probably that of trying to understand/predict the real world better tomorrow than they can today.
I think this approach does one thing of value. Generally we use the word "moral" in a positive sense. Moral=good. Of course we then get twisted up in our shorts arguing whether something is good or not. Totally off the topic. Whether a moral compass is "good" or "bad"( whatever those words may mean) is entirely in the eye of the beholder and cannot be the basis for reasoned discussion. So, shall we stop trying?
There is a much more productive discussion to be had when comparing different moral compasses. What expected/unexpected consequences can follow from a given moral compass? Quite possibly one moral compass may threaten the survival imperative while another will not. I think approached this way all of the previous posts can be seen in a new light.
A final minor point regarding survival, if there can be such. Natural history teaches us species that do not adapt, become extinct. Nature=change. Dinosaurs learned to fly. But here comes an argument almost second law-like. In a natural system if a death scenario, which is by definition irreversible exists - that will be the final result. No argument. If the birds don't run out of food they will surely go extinct when the sun finally explodes or collapses.
Humans are going to go extinct. The question is this. Do we go extinct in the next 100 years? Or shall we put it off a bit?
Timing.
Timing.
Timing.
It is all in the timing.
PS:
I am confident you can go to classic Greek writings from 400BC and find this argument virtually word for word.
Now I will do a bank shot off the last comment that illuminates what I think is really bugging John Long.
For the last 2000 years we have been in a backwater here on earth. We are supremely talented in carrying out reasoned inquiry when studying the real world. No matter where you look you see progress.
On all the other important topics
we have not a clue.
We are going nowhere. Nothing.
On all of those other important topics we are doing the same things we did thousands of years ago
for precisely the same reasons.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 24, 2010 - 05:28pm PT
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Largo, still lost as to your 'point' or intent in all this quite circular discussion. What is it are you trying to say or want to discuss? That we can't 'prove' we or anything else truly exist? Well, to quote Ed - "so what?" This is where academic / philosophical discussions often seem to go from the perspective of layfolk - ultimately it's a matter of 'your point?' relative to anything someone cares about.
Again, you seem intent on creating a nothing-is-real-so-anything-is-possible AliceLand and I keep coming back to trying to figure out what 'conclusions' you take away from that conjecture or what are you suggesting we consider or conclude from it? All in all the net effect of following this thread so far has been indistinquishable from that good bong hit followed by a session of Firesign Theatre.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 24, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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You then go a step further to suggest persons can and do 'tap into' that gap through meditation and doing so yields all sorts of insight (especially if you're a CalTec physist or chemist). So, just curious, are you positing the consciousness or 'mind' we each experience is an individual or shared "borderless container that is mind"? Because I've noticed I can remain [relatively] sober while my drinking companion gets shitfaced, so I'm inclined to the former or at least to some notion of context, containerization, or framing if the 'mind' is as you say.
I knew going into this that first, I did not know exactly how to state what I wanted to state, that I would probably say nothing anyone wanted to hear, and that it wouldn't make great sense because I was formulating the ideas - not eh experiences thy ideas were based on - as i went along. When all else failed, I tried to use an impoverished Socratic method of simply prying into the sketchy and grey areas when a strict materialist view stated dominating.
Basically, what I've been driving at all along, is that there is no way to make any sense out of "things" without an experiential concept of the opposite "no-thing."
Most people have an intuitive ideas of opposites, such that the yin and yang are both part of reality. I might use wave and particle as a metaphor to touch on this, or night and day, form and emptiness, forward and backward causation, love and death, and so forth.
The Zen folks realized centuries ago that the fundamental truth about existence is impermanence. Whatever is born, dies, and so forth. But some people sense that this was only the superficial layer of forms, which are always in flux and changing, so how, they wondered, could you ever consider forms real when they are here one moment and gone the next? Even rocks and universes come and go, apparently.
One way to guard against the unreality and transience of forms is to insist that if you go deep enough, particles ARE real, they don't really change - they just look that way - and that everything, including vacuum space is in fact either filled with particles or was casually created BY particles. That way everything is particles and everything is real and we are "right" is saying so. Then we die . . . Where did we go? The Zen people would say "you" were never really here, that "you" is only a construct of the evolved brain, and of language, and thought and limbic and brain stem activity, which is biological and immutable.
But what's underneath, behind, in and around, and what ultimately sources all the forms? I sited the above quote simply to illustrate the difficulty in trying to grasp the ungraspable. What you find, eventually, is that even consciousness and awareness are just clouds or forms that rise and fall. But fall into what?
The unborn. Some may say I have my head up my ass or even suggesting such an idea, but the "born" (forms) makes no existential sense without it, regardless if we do or do not have a model that tells us otherwise.
You might look at the "number" 0. Just a mataphor, nothing fixed or final or absolute, but it might give you some task for it. The existence of the unborn, the "not there," the zero-sum, is so fundamental to our consciousness and existence that to really is like explaining water to a fish. Likewise, people scramble around and try and say "it" is really not nothing at all, that you have it all wrong, it is actually this something here. Some men had other ideas:“
"The point about zero is that we do not need to use it in the operations of daily life. No one goes out to buy zero fish. It is in a way the most civilized of all the cardinals, and its use is only forced on us by the needs of cultivated modes of thought.”
— Alfred North Whitehead
“A fine and wonderful refuge of the divine spirit – almost an amphibian between being and non-being.”
— Gottfried Leibniz
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 24, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
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actually had that one off the internet long before maher got ahold of it. it's quite useful.
and it really isn't that bad a place to be, largo--as good as any other place. i've often thought that, when i die, you can put my ashes in the landfill. it's all part of the planet. if you loved me, make the landfill prettier. or learn how to recycle everything.
whitehead's british intellectual elistism and leibniz's earlier germanic version of same. both mathematicians--not my territory. but i don't think the subject of god was necessarily theirs. great minds but not great mystics. or are we not talking about mysticism here?
impermanence was noticed by heraclitus before the zen folks. he seemed a harder guy. "war is the father of all things." either way, a good observation to help us adjust to the fluxes of life, but is there really any useful insight beyond that?
a good point about the particle garden, however. physics has extrapolated from the planetary model of the atom to the particulate model of quarkdom. what are these particles, these teentsie bits of mass, reacting to certain forces and not to others? are they an ultimate grasping at the straw of existence as it nears the incredibly unimaginable threshhold of nothingness, down there at 10 to the minus, where are we now, 30th? and the working question down there, i've heard, is supersymmetry or strings? i'll bet we'd all vote supersymmetry here. at last, agreement!
john, i think you got close to something with your tale of tommy. and i don't think it's that far from pate's dog here. we're all looking for just a little bit more than nothing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 25, 2010 - 10:52am PT
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jstan wrote-
"Humans are going to go extinct. The question is this. Do we go extinct in the next 100 years? Or do we put it off a bit?"
I don't see our species going extinct for a long time. Instead, I think it's way more likely in the near term, 100 years out, say, that life's going to get really miserable, the whole globe like today's Somalia. Except in pockets.
No fuel. No electricity. No internet. No cars or trucks. No bounty at the food terminals (e.g., the Walmarts). Certainly no quality health care like today's generations are used to. Who would want to live under those conditions. That's what concerns me. Kinda sad.
No biodiversity either. That is, no local fauna anywhere. Not after everything's poached to support the crashing carrying capacity after the fossil fuels are depleted.
Unless (a) we come up with a strategy- working strategy- to control our over-population, (b) discover/invent that 1:1 replacement fuel for "ancient sunlight."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 25, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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Fructose, as usual, is right.
Excess population is THE ultimate problem facing our species.
We simply cannot continue indefinitely to "go forth and multiply".
Both available earth resources, and the limits of government and capitalism
cannot sustain human life.
China gets it, their government have a law that a couple cannot have more
than one child. They KNOW the extreme damage that unchecked population is having on their resources, and any "quality" of Chinese life.
In short, STOP FUKING. Stop it now.
Get a puppy if you HAVE to control another life to give meaning to your OWN life.
Stop all this nonsensical constant unprotected sex.
Human life is NOT any more "important" than a blind salamander.
And screw all the religions that promote reproduction and the "sacredness" of human life.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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Put differently, consciousness does not represent a one-to-one correspondence to brain matter, though some sort of casual link certainly exists between consciousness and brain.
I would put it the other way, consciousness does not represent a one-to-one correspondence to reality.
What's more, even though both physics and chemistry support the wave–particle duality - that is, reality exhibits both wave-like and particle-like properties - some will, to repeat myself, say that the wave-like characteristics are not real, but are mere constructs used to "describe" strange aspects of the particle, which IS real.
As frustrated you are with my not "understanding" your way of thinking, and not "learning" the way to access this conscious state, I am equally frustrated by your unwillingness to learn more than the most superficial notions of physics, and especially quantum mechanics. This is accessible to anyone, though you must learn some mathematics along the way.
Oddly, perhaps, while I'd make some smart-alec remark like the plasma screen you are viewing on your lap top is "brought to you by the snake-oil of science," you could retort with some zen lesson on the ego...
Largo, I am not nor have I ever denied that there are many wonderful exercises one can learn to connect with other conscious states and that those exercises could be profound, expanding and significant. The reality of such things is well documented.
I find it dubious, however, that you must somehow seek to establish the importance of this by trying to validate it by making it a part of the universe beyond the confines of our own individual experience and that wonderful (though horrendously narcissistic) phenomena of consciousness. You don't need some hokey interpretation of quantum mechanics, or some staid western philosophical debate, to "explain" what you have experienced yourself.
On top of it all, your narrative technique (which is the very definition of Largo) gets so puffed up with exaggeration and runaway metaphor that it is hard to temper a response, at least I'm not big enough to ignore the puff challenge.
And anyway, I sense this has really descended to a thread of big egos bouncing, sumo like, against each other with the rules of the game completely obscure to the observers...
...so I concede your points. It might be taken to be insincere but really if we find ourselves insulting each other's lifelong held beliefs and inciting overblown rhetoric, well it probably isn't where we wanted to take the conversation... disembodied as it is.
So have at it, it's clear that we could have a polemic ping-pong match and give the audience whip lash until the get bored and forget why they actually cared in the first place.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
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Consciousness is reality.
It operates in 4 different modes according to the state of consciousness the living entity is in.
Mode of ignorance.
Mode of passion
Mode of goodness
These modes can overlap.
The Mode of pure goodness, (fourth), which transcends the three previous modes above is the real platform by which the soul can understand the absolute truth.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
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Thanks Norton. Your post is right on, written harshly, no punches pulled, but I totally get it.
Re: "no punches pulled" There is a place for this strategy in making progress, or at least in trying to make progress, too.
Ed wrote-
"I am equally frustrated by your unwillingness to learn more than the most superficial notions of physics..." Welcome to the club.
But it's not just physics, either, it's across all sciences, physical sciences and life sciences, and engineering, too.
P.S. Brawny, there's a question for you over on Jeremy's thread.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 25, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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Largo wrote
Basically, what I've been driving at all along, is that there is no way to make any sense out of "things" without an experiential concept of the opposite "no-thing."
I like how you write it as "no-thing" rather than Nothing. Something that doesn't fall within the divisions observable with concepts and the mind is not necessarily "nothing" just as light that is outside the range of human sight is not No-light.
Confusion over this has led to divisions such as those reflected in Werner's warnings about "MayavadI" philosophy. Some groups insist on a personal God that we can relate to, others "see" an abstract God, far beyond conception. Everything I've experienced eventually pointed to something well beyond our minds and limited conceptions but somehow capable of responding and relating with us to the extent we are able. Non-Dual, and Dual/personal paths, and Buddhism too: They are communing with the same thing using different filters and mindsets, and make unnecessary arguments with each other. The same woman can relate as a mother, a lover, a friend, or a boss, take your choice.
This being without apparent division becomes the all, not out of emptiness, just not out of anything we can wrap our minds and concepts around.
peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 25, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Ed wrote:
Largo, I am not nor have I ever denied that there are many wonderful exercises one can learn to connect with other conscious states and that those exercises could be profound, expanding and significant. The reality of such things is well documented.
I find it dubious, however, that you must somehow seek to establish the importance of this by trying to validate it by making it a part of the universe beyond the confines of our own individual experience and that wonderful (though horrendously narcissistic) phenomena of consciousness. You don't need some hokey interpretation of quantum mechanics, or some staid western philosophical debate, to "explain" what you have experienced yourself.
Now I've said a hundred times that what I'm talking about is not some "state," mental or cognitive reflection or insight or belief or any such thing, but here you are busting that out again and insisting that is what I'm talking about - that, despite boring the sh#t out of everyone with all my silly rants on nothingness, emptiness, container space and so forth.
Another curious thing is the quote, "part of the universe beyond the confines of our own individual experience." What does this mean, Ed? Are you saying that "science" is part of the universe beyond the individual minds who created it.
What's more, the way you have postulated the second graph, the insinuation, which I trust you would bet your life on, is that the "experience" you write about and that I supposedly have had, is, if I only knew better about how my own experience really works, and what it is, was all along sourced by an evolved, material brain. And that this experience, or state, or insight, or whatever the hell is involved, has no bearing, relation to or significance to the real "universe" (and here I supposed you mean the material world) or quantifiable datum.
After that, you said that I was frustrated that you did not understand my way of thinking, despite me saying a thousand times I was never talking about thinking or a cognitive process (but I never beat you over the head for not understanding phenomenology).
So while you "frustrated by your (my) unwillingness to learn more than the most superficial notions of physics, and especially quantum mechanics - accessible to anyone, though you must learn some mathematics along the way," I am curious to why you don't get cracking on a practice that will demolish your belief in the primacy of matter and cognition and consciousness. Of course that makes no sense - yet. You don't have to abandon thinking or any materialist beliefs to do so. Thinking is required and essential for working with matter and the challenges of life. But if you want to move beyond that, you need another tool, and beyond the conviction that not only are there no other tools, but that all that has been discussed here, imperfectly for sure, refers strictly to the experiential qualia of the individual, which is the product of the evolved, material brain.
The real challenge will be to try and push beyond this sticking point, and the resignation to say, "What for?" How willing are people to imagine that which runs counter to the certainties of their own mental constructs and beliefs? Isn't that always the challenge?
JL
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 25, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
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Show Me What You're Building!!
By WBraun from Jun 18, 2010 - 10:42pm PT ...
I can't build anything.
All those other guys told me there's no intelligent design.
I gathered all the materials together but nothing happened.
All the materials are still laying there ......
Ha ha ha, tell it!!!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 25, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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Gobee, I am quite sure you are a really nice guy and would never hurt a puppy.
But, are you SO stuck in your strict fundamentalist, creationist, defensive belief systems that you are unwilling, or unable, to engage in a reasonable,
rational, discussion?
You just keep trotting out trite little ancient biblical sayings as if they are the answer to any kind of serious questions.
Seriously, Gobee, what do you do for a living, curious, and how were you
raised, Catholic maybe? By strict religious creationist parents?
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 25, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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Poor Norton..tsk tsk
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 25, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
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The mind body dichotomy is no doubt fascinating. The very definition of beauty in antiquity was the notion of corporeal matter fertilized by divinity (perhaps too materialist an idea of mind body).
Nevertheless, if consciousness is (or “is not”) an outcome of some metastructure of a thing no thing dichotomy and is/is not in the very structure of the universe, then why the human brain?
And why does the manipulation of our corporeal brains have such a direct effect on the mind stuff of our inner selves? It seems to me that this issue of the brain as a machine for the manifestation of mind is unassailable, as it has been demonstrated again and again. Like I said before, the idea of looking behind the self aware entity that is our mind stuff is like trying to look behind the vanishing point: there may be no there, there.
Do we make a distinction between the higher functions of the mind that allow for reason or the creation of art and the lower functions that maintain our metabolism? Where does the stuff of soul begin, beyond the desire to eat, reproduce, survive? Isn’t there a kind of hierarchy of consciousness?
What we end up with is this compelling mystery that everyone (believers) seems to have solved.
Unfortunately, the solutions are problematic.
Those that believe know. Knowing with perfect certainty is the gift of faith and with it comes an end to the anxiety of not knowing… who would want to give up knowing?
To certify the efficacy of our knowing we impose it on others. It is imposed at gunpoint or sword point or by ostracizing or ridicule or argument or gentle persuasion, but it is absolutely necessary to spread our truth to others: we owe that to the reality of our belief. Our belief demands that others participate, less the condemnation of not knowing falls on them. Sometimes we must even destroy in order to save.
What we need to understand, then, is how we know. Anybody who is serious about a discussion like this must come to terms with the veracity of his or her own knowledge, and ask themselves: is individual anecdotal experience really a predicate for absolute certainty?
Know thyself.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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catholics don't quote the bible like that, nort. they're relatively allergic to the bible, compared to noncatholic christians. they don't dive into it the way protestants do, looking for guidance for the moment, closing their eyes and opening it up and plunging a finger onto a page. catholics don't know what a concordance is. the bible is meted out to them snippet by snippet at sunday services, and they figure it's the only important stuff they have to know.
that's one thing catholicism has sorta right--you do need a little guidance dealing with scriptures, so many ways to interpret them. when the protestants cast off catholicism, they turned to the bible bigtime to find everything there. big mistake. the bible is a mess--a real literary hodgepodge. just look at that crap norton was quoting upthread.
hey, my proposal is to erect large statues of condoms in the central squares of the big cities of the world. this is the hero for the future. carry on public executions of priests who have engaged in sex with children. nothing but healthy, normal, life-affirming sex from here on in, folks, with real restraint on the reproductive end of it. tell everyone sex is no big deal, but it's very pleasant, and if we put it in its proper place, we'll all live happily ever after.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Thanks Fredrick!
And why don't you just pray for me..........
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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Tony Bird cited the post by Norton citing a violent passage from Deuteronomy. The point about people committing violent acts in the name of religion is well taken, but by itself is simplistic both because there are non- (and even anti-) religious entities (for instance, secular states and certain forms of communism) that are violent and because there are significant strands of relgious traditions (turn the other cheek, love your enemy) that are the obverse of violent.
To reject the possibility of belief in God because there are strands of religious traditions that are violent is analogous to (only analogous to, not the same as)rejecting climbing -- and the transcendence it can offer -- as inherently unethical because there are groups of climbers who put strings of bolts right next to perfect hand cracks as part of their understanding of what constitutes "good climbing."
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 25, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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More to Tony Bird: Exactly right about Catholics and the Bible (Norton, do you caricaturize all people the way you do people who believe in God? Wow, that's some animus you got going there).
Tony, I think you said it best when you said, "We're all just looking for just a little bit more than nothing." That kind of understanding is the basis of the best kind of ecumenism.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 25, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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To answer some questions:
Yes, I do caricature most all(similar thinking) people I run across in the same way I do those who insist on stating and believing that the bible is the direct word of god.
Why you may ask?
Because you cannot have it both ways to simply convenience yourself.
Those who insist and believe the "bible" is the direct word of god do
not have the luxury of picking and choosing which sections, which words
or passages are, or are not, the "word of god".
They maintain first and foremost "god" cannot error, and that god may not
have personally sat down and used pen and paper to write the bible, certainly those who did write it were directed to, and how, in exact language by god herself.
And so when I quote sections and verses of the bible that point out that god says to rape women or beat your children or murder other men, then those quotes are every bit as valid and coming from god himself as all
the other reasonable, sweet, nice stuff that god says in the bible.
There are NO "outs", no cherry picking, no saying on the one hand that
god wrote it all, and then saying that clearly some dumbass sheep herder who liked raping women decided that he personally would write what sexually pleased himself, and then personally claimed god told him that and then somehow his writings are accepted as legitimately god's word.
You have the folks whose parent's told them as children that you must, must believe every word in the bible is god's word. And when the bible (genesis) says the earth is created in a period of six days, and then all powerful god had to rest up, and did this all only 6000 years ago, and now it is 2010 and we have absolute hard science proof that this is emphatically wrong, well then we have a contradiction, don't we.
And what happens? We have adults, grownups who are educated, who want so badly to believe blindly and without questioning as they did when they were trusting children, who are now conflicted by a modern world that continually presents hard evidence that puts their belief systems under constant attack.
And so these adults do the only thing they can do, they defensibly retreat further into themselves, denying the same science that they see all around them all day long.
Believe what you will, but you cannot say the bible is the word of the god you believe in, and then say god did NOT write the sections of that same bible that you as a modern day human do not agree with, like it being ok to rape and murder, and all the other twisted, contorting, torturing for fun CRAP in that same bible.
No matter how badly you want to believe 2 and 2 is 5, it just is NOT.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 26, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 26, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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Anybody who is serious about a discussion like this must come to terms with the veracity of his or her own knowledge, and ask themselves: is individual anecdotal experience really a predicate for absolute certainty?
Paul keeps returning to this theme in various ways and I think there are really two separate issues here - the veracity of such experiences and the search for universalizing them with certainty.
Regarding the first, I don't really think that the people who have intense spiritual experiences, myself included, are ever going to agree that they are all self created. Just because a certain area of the brain lights up in a brain scan during a certain spiritual experience, shows a correlation not causation. We have after all been through the age of psychedelics when large numbers of people thought that we could ingest enlightenment, and that didn't prove to be the case. Every retreat center I've ever been to whether Hindu, Buddhist, or Christian, is full of people who already tried that and have then gone on to a traditional spiritual discipline which emphasizes ethics and service along with experience.
Regarding his second proposition, I think he has correctly pinpointed the problem of these experiences being so intense, that the natural tendency is to want to place them into some kind of universalizing context. It is a big leap from there however, to any form of certainty, and dealing with this by simply throwing scripture at people is a very simplistic and to me, a lazy way of handling it.
I think also, that the reason some people cling to their dogmatic formulas about having the exclusive truth is that they can observe many non believers with higher ethics and better behavior than believers. They then have to ask themselves what is the point of a belief system if you can be a good person without it.
This seems a particularly hard question for those who practice a demanding religion which forbids many things and requires a lot of self discipline. To them I would say, one level of spirituality is to practice self denial. A higher form is to practice it without self righteousness. This is the teaching of all religions.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 26, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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Norton,
At first glance you make some good points in your posts from, Creationists.....You're so farout You're IN!!!!!!!!!!, from the Old Testament, but they were from a different time, just as slavery was true in America and else where in the world.
You missed;
Exodus 21:5, But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.
My point is that there is more to those stories.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 26, 2010 - 05:17am PT
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If I try to understand why we all make the effort it takes to type words down like this on the internet there seems to be at least two purposes. The first is equivalent to advising your companions that there is a sabre tooth tiger out there and we need to get back into the cave. Very practical, so that is probably the camp in which I belong.
But then you run into those with the ability to put down a half dozen words whose meaning and intent are crystal clear, and the meaning is the same even for readers having very different histories. These gems suggest we are trying, in some sense, to travel together if only for a moment.
Being homo sapiens we, of course, intersperse these communications with much snapping, snarling, and drooling. Since we no longer have canine teeth, this is our only way to command attention. This is the way the world is built.
Back to sleep now.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:09am PT
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Ok jstan.
You snap and I'll drool!
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:15am PT
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Norton: on cherry-picking -- but that is exactly what you are doing -- taking the worst of religious traditions and saying all of religion is like that. Would you do that with people of color?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 26, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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Tung, you missed my point, which was to point out the flawed reasoning of those literal bibleists who insist that the entire bible, every word of it, was written by god.
There are sections of the bible that are very clearly NOT written by a rational and the all loving god.
These sections were clearly written by men.
Does ANYONE dispute this?
Of course not, even Gobee seems to agree that humans wrote the bible.
Which then begs the questions of WHICH sections were written by humans and which sections were written by humans with god directing their pens on parchment?
So, answer that question, kindly please.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 26, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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So what we need is for those who believe god wanted it all in the bible to discuss which parts of the bible they personally follow. There is a fair amount of hanky panky, I understand, in the US but relatively few stonings. Statistically, if not by some other reasoning process, we may conclude with a high probability that only selected portions of the bible are being followed.
So let's hear about it.
"Christians are not perfect just forgiven!"
OK. That means christians are forgiven for not following all that is in the bible. They all go to heaven regardless of what they actually do.
OK. That fits with the behaviors we actually see in the world.
Once you are in, you have it made.
That's definitely cool.
Provided there really is something to it all.
Otherwise you have bought an insurance policy with a company that will never pay any claims.
That's a frequently used approach.
I think we are learning something. Finally.
The warp and the woof on this cloth is coming into view.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 26, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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If God is limitless, why would he limit himself to the words of dead men in a book? Doesn't that book speak out against idolatry? By saying that book is the word of god, aren't we trying to put God into a solid object made by human hands? Is this not idolatry? Why can't we say that these words are just the words of men inspired by God to share some truth. Some truth, not all truth. Why would a limitless god limit his word to one people or one time? Aren't we all his children? If Jesus was the spokesman for God, why did he seek out sinners and not holy men? Why did he not himself write words? Why did he not himself start a religion, build temples, or tell us what we can't do?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 26, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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Christians are not perfect just forgiven!
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
-Shakespeare
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 26, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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Norton, your last comment helps clarify. If all you are talking about are biblical literalists who naively interpret the whole of the bible without acknowledging that they are in fact involved in the act of interpreting (the ones I have in mind often highlight teachings on homosexuality in Leviticus and conveniently ignore, for instance, Jesus' teaching on poverty; note the Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John -- say not one word on homosexuality) then we are in little disagreement. If you want want to move from that to saying that all believers are fraudulent jerk-idiots, then there is not much to talk about.
If you really want to learn about the various ways of interpreting the bible, take a good course in biblical hermeneutics. In my own case, given that I am called to be Christian, I begin with the words and actions that can reasonably historically be attributed to Jesus of Nazareth (because in my belief system God's revelation demonstrates itself most forcefully in Jesus)and work from there. Yes, this often involves rejecting certain parts of the bible as incomplete or even errant readings of who God is.
There is not even agreement among those who start with what they can know about the historical Jesus as to which acts and sayings in the Gospels are most authentic.
Any interpretation of anything will involve a process of selection ("You can't use that hold, its not on the route") and weighting of what is central and what is not ("That's not the crux; up there is the crux"). All I ask in your exchanges, Norton, is that you not take one (in my judgment erring) version of religious belief and leap to the conclusion that all religious believers are willfully deceived oppressive half-minds.
Climb on!
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jstan
climber
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Jun 26, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
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TG:
That is a great step you have made. To say what has to be true. The written word always needs to be interpreted and you have described the logic you use for your interpretation.
You have laid the basis upon which minds can find common ground - which there always is.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 26, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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Tung, I will honor your request.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 26, 2010 - 05:11pm PT
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Thanks Norton.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 26, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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In my experience, TG represents the vast majority of present day Christians. The shame is that the others are so vocal, they have mislead everyone into thinking they are the majority opinion.
The literalists have even misled people about the name Christian by calling themselves Christian and referring to everyone else by their denominational titles. Thus they say there are Christians and Catholics for example.
In reality, Biblical Literalists are only one particular school of thought within the vast and diverse body of all those who somehow have a special affinity for Christ.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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Tung- Let's drill a little deeper. Do you believe the historical Jesus was God Jesus?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
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I just want to state for the record that it's by God's grace through Jesus that were saved not by what we do to earn it, but we do want to walk closer to Him by doing what we know He would have us do!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:50pm PT
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For the record: so noted.
Thank you for that, Gobee.
My god bless you.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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Heck with it Norton, let's not wait for TG. Anyone who believes the historical Jesus of Nazereth was God Jesus is a fundamentalist traditional Christian in my book, how about in yours?
And anyone- girl or boy- who thinks fundamentalist traditional Christians weren't the majority in the 80's and 90's need to step away from the university grounds for awhile. (Start with Belvue, Kansas, that's my recommendation.) I would say, however, there have been HUGE CHANGES, HUGE since 2000 (or 9/11, perhaps better), thank the gods.
EDIT
TG wrote-
"If you really want to learn about the various ways of interpreting the bible, take a good course in biblical hermeneutics."
This is so written as if everyone here is a noob, a neophyte, a new growth! LOL. TG, were I to take such a course would it have to be by way of a Christian seminary? Or would a Jewish yeshiva or college-level medrasah do?
There's a world of difference between curriculum in Christian seminary and curriculum in comparative religious studies at a top-tier school like Stanford.
Maybe some of us have decades experience in these subjects already because they've been a life-long interest. Food for thought for you.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 26, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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Gobee pretty well clears it all up.
The scriptures provided us are merely documents we may interpet in our own light. Since only we can know what is in our heart and what is in our heart gives us entry into heaven
nothing stands between each of us and heaven.
This being the case, someone who does not believe in a god has unobstructed entry to heaven provided only they feel their heart meets the requirements they themselves set for it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:04am PT
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Fructose-
Why would an atheist even care what a Christian believes?
I'm pretty sure that no Christian has an obsession with defining what an atheist does or does not or should or should not, believe, so why the reverse interest?
Obsessions are usually rooted in some unresolved conflict?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:07am PT
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jstan-
What you say has to be true of people of other religions as well. A much more optimistic scenario than what we've been hearing.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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"Why would an atheist even care what a Christian believes? "
Then why are atheists continually being advised they need saving?
Gobee has given us the reply that believers will understand.
What is in my heart saves me. There is only good in my heart. I can be a homosexual, a murderer, or just me. As long as I like what is in my heart I'll be seeing you in heaven.
end of story
And yes. This applies to everyone.
Very egalitarian.
And this all fits very neatly with how christians seem to feel their beliefs affect themselves.
Just one disconnect. The disconnect I have been complaining about for more than a year.
To a christian, all others christians and atheists, have a different and less advantageous agreement with god. Only the person speaking has this privilege, Everyone else still has to toe a line. If they want to take part in a homosexual marriage god insists they forfeit the right to leave their estates tax free to a spouse.
Not a minor penalty for their simple failure to be born the very special christian who happens to making this decision for everyone but himself.
Now I am going to get rather direct.
How good a thing is this to hold in your heart?
If I thought any of this really existed outside of peoples' minds I would hazard the guess
there are going to be a huge number of very surprised people.
Whether Jesus existed in reality or not really isn't an issue. What is important, I think, is that each person has to decide whether they are going to refuse to treat others in ways they would not choose themselves to be treated(Hillel). And however they decide, they need to take the responsibility for learning to live with the decisions they have made.
I think this is what TG is doing. In my opinion a person who lives this way deserves absolutely all the peace of mind they shall receive.
Talking about this we go on endlessly about "religion."
All entirely meaningless.
It is about how you live.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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Why would an atheist even care what a Christian believes?
I know who this is directed to, so I'll answer it. For it is such appeasement and/or interference.
Fundamentalist traditional Christians let loose their beliefs, their worldviews, their values in politics and the last time I checked this is a democracy where those count in politics, politicians (those who get to get elected) to laws to statutes. You're either naive or pretending to not realize this link.
Start with (1) abortion, (2) stem-cell research, (3) home-schooling of fundamentalists, (4) Mary Schiavo type cases, (5) Jack Kavorkian cases. (6) constant unrelenting interference with science education, (7) religious wars around the world. That's seven, that's enough.
Another: It's not just your work, it's my work, too. -Which is why I'm on this thread. It's a free world. You get to post, I get to post.
P.S. And it's not just fundamentalist Christianity, either; it's the whole Abrahamic super-religion. -That's interferring with the so-called Scientific Story, science education, the science community (through grants, etc.) and a more modern informed American democracy. Rest assured, if I were living in Islamabad right now, I'd be even more "obsessed" over it.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Personally I believe in live and let live.
I don't like being impinged on by either religionists out to save my soul or atheists telling me what not to believe. That said, until I got on ST, I never met an atheist who tried to convert me. Since the Christian fundamentalists started this battle, they can hardly complain about the backlash.
As for the social issues that Fructose mentions, we're probably on the same side of those. I just find that it's easier to persuade people by chipping away here and there rather than waging a full frontal assault.
I do teach evolution to the American military who are by and large a pretty conservative group, and my experience is that most modern believers are desperately struggling for a way to reconcile both views. When I tell them it's a useless battle and you only have to be a little bit open minded to reconcile science with spirituality, the usual reaction is a huge sigh of relief.
By the same token, I have grown increasingly skeptical of the wisdom of adopting new technology just because it's there. I think that spiritual/religious people have sound cautionary input to offer. Unfortunately both scientists and middle of the road religious people have too often left the ethical implications up to the religious fundamentalists.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:26am PT
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High Fructose -- I am sorry that you couldn't hold it until I got back to the computer. Since you dismissed me before I could answer, I am not sure what the purpose of answering your question on Jesus God would be. Your trigger-happy approach becomes evident in your presupposition that I went to seminary (as if that would be an intrinsically evil act) as opposed to a place like Stanford. I never went to seminary; all of my advanced educational training was at Harvard and the University of Chicago, two places not known for their religious narrowness. You can rank them relative to Stanford however you wish. Until then, consider the possibility that your words are a mirror image of those of the religious bigots you abhore.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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So, is it God Jesus for you? Own up.
TG- Don't take my haste personally. It's just that I caught Norton online, I like Norton, and thought we might dialog. I'm sure you understand. Afterall, it IS a very interesting subject.
HINT- You're a relative newcomer, so FYI, you gotta be tough on this thread. Kinda like in rock climbing at your level or above.
By the way, who's the atheist?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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By the way Fructose, if you want to have a new god and start a new religion you've got to find a better name for it than Hypercrates. Too many hard to pronounce consonants. You need a name that flows.
Edit: In the interests of fairness, Fructos' wish to have the name of his God capitalized has been done.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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Have you tried pronouncing it? Tell me how you think it goes and its Greek etymology, I know you know something about ety with your language background. This could be fun.
I don't know, it's Greek ety might win you over, maybe, same with Diacrates. It's upper case, too, to match Jehovah. C'mon, are you willing to "push the envelope" as test pilots used to say, this time regarding theology, theistics.
Food for Thought: (1) Is Hippocrates too difficult? (2) Perhaps it is a way of honoring the ancient Greek language, too.
Two subjects at once: Aren't you an "atheist" in regard to Serapis or Poseidon or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Own up. Or, as an alternative, are you an agnostic concerning the Flying Spaghetti Monster? One more: Do you think it would be "reasonable" to be an agnostic (the middle course for some) concerning the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Hard questions, are you prepared to answer them?
EDIT
"if you want to have a new god...you've got to find a better name for it than..." Hey, I'm sure you know- In careful discourse at a more academic technical level, how one says something is important. That said, reframe it: "if you want to give a name to a (already existing) god concept (in the hope that it sticks) you've got to..." That's way better. You know, how someone frames something says a lot about them and their biases. Yours come through, too.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:45am PT
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High Fructose --
1) Yes, I believe that God became human in Jesus of Nazareth in a unique way, and
2) Your language of "own up" is misleading because I have nothing to hide. You would not have attacked me if I had not already (deliberately)given you and the others in this forum the sense that I belive 1), and
3)My previous comment about you being a mirror image of the religious bigots you target still stands. Time for you to own up, and
4) You need to offer more by way of possible point of contact for conversation if you want more than just to rant. I'd much rather read about Leibniz and Whitehead (Largo, where are you when we need you?).
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Man, High Fructose, you post (or edit your posts)faster than I can think. I'm going to bed. It's Eastern time here.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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When there is a contest of any kind we lose sight of the invisible things all around us, like the air and good will whose value dwarfs the meaning of that over which we fight.
Focus
Always look long and deep.
Always
Edit:
Werner:
Just got a call from John.
Wanted to know why you were hooting it up over there.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 27, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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Jstan -- "When there is a contest ..."
Is this a contest?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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maybe i shouldn't'a started a separate thread to give fructo a pink belly. we could just do it here.
dog pile!
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jstan
climber
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Jun 27, 2010 - 01:10am PT
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Tony:
This one just ended. The next batch of scriptures that get directed at us we will need to reply with our personal interpretations of those passages.
From the very depths of our hearts.
Could be really helpful.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 27, 2010 - 03:32am PT
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Fructose-
Good points well taken.
I still think that Hypercrates is not a charismatic name for a god/God and sounds somewhat elitist. The modern tendency is in the opposite direction. Note how the Higgs Boson excited popular imagination only after it was renamed the God Particle and our common African ancestress only after she was relabeled Mitochondrial Eve.
You're right though, in pointing out my biases. I do take the spaghetti monster less seriously than Serapis or Poseidon and both less seriously than the more general term "God".
In reflecting on this I think it has to do with the spaghetti monster being a comic strip invention with no serious worshippers, history or faith tradition. In fact it was a spoof on those very traditions. Serapis and Poseidon did have serious worshippers. If Hypercrates ever develops serious converts, I'll take that more seriously too.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 10:03am PT
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dunno, jstan, i think this baby's got legs. i joined around 800 and it's past 2100 now. and it's a revived thread at that.
it isn't fair to the atheists when people throw scriptures. the only thing they can throw back is E=mc2. but maybe that levels the field, because nobody understands that either.
btw, i couldn't disagree more about that, locker and jstan. we live according to what we think. maybe you guys think this is just a game.
are those names fructofabrications? does he even know what he's dealing in? dia = through; hyper = too much; kratein = to rule. is he just taking fragments and putting them together without much ideation? superficial erudition? just suggesting it, frook, don't go all ballistic all at once. tell us all about it. but remember, this is how l. ron hubbard got started.
i wonder how largo feels about the spaghetti monster. he won't answer me directly. you can't get him to jump off a cliff unless he thinks there's a good move down there.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 10:08am PT
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thing about frook here is he's hoping to stamp out religion in his lifetime. the great rapture of believing in science is right around the corner, just wait a couple more seconds.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 27, 2010 - 10:18am PT
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Okay, story problem time. (I am following previous suggestions and presenting not scripture, but lives lived.) There is no one right answer (Does that mean I'm no longer a fundamentalist?). Here goes:
When I'm not on Supertopo, I do fieldwork in northern Uganda and South Sudan -- two nasty places if you like peace -- and live among the refugees. One trip I was living in Magwi, South Sudan. The conflict had been so bad, all of the NGOs (nongovernmental organizations) had long ago left the area. All services, all everything, was provided by the religious organizations. The people called the Catholic Church "D.O.T." (short for Diocese of Torit), like the acronynms of the NGOs that were no longer there. A priest there told me this story of a rebel attack on the parish conpound two months prior to my arrival:
“The rebels attacked. People from all around came to our compound. They were saying, ‘Father Joseph, the rebels are coming! Help us!’ I did not know what to do. We couldn’t protect them. Father Maurice was here. So I asked him what we should do. He said, ‘Let’s get a motorcycle and ride towards the rebels. Let’s try to talk to them. Maybe they’ll talk. And if they kill us, at least the others will have more time to get away.”
The next day, Father Joseph and I drove to Torit to see the bishop. Though the Magwi County Commissioner said that they had all gone to Western Equatoria, the rebels were still around. Father Maurice saw one running from the South Sudan army earlier in the week, and the following week four would be spotted in Agoro, Uganda, just south of the Sudan border, while I was there. Father Joseph crossed himself and said a prayer before he started the car. I asked him what went through his mind when Father Maurice suggested riding a motorcycle towards the center of a rebel attack.
“We were the only ones. The South Sudanse army was not there to protect. They did not come until after Easter. And the people, they are just people of the village. They did not know what to do. There are no activists, no community leaders. There is no one who can be in the middle and try to talk with the rebels. Someone maybe they can trust. It is hard. These rebels are not very dependable. But I am a man of peace, and so I seek to make peace wherever I am. I am a priest, and I am supposed to be an image of Christ. So we just got on the motorcycle and went.”
Okay, here is the question: Would it have been better for the people if Fathers Joseph and Maurice were not there, but had left the people like the NGOs had? (Joseph and Maurice are both local priests, not foreign missionaries). And no weasling around the question by saying things like it would have been better if Joseph and Maurice were nonbelievers and did what they did. Their belief was the very basis of their being there; take that away and, like the NGOs, they leave. And yes, it would be better if there were no war, but we are dealing with reality here. So we are left with the question,was it better that they, as they were, were there or not?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 10:42am PT
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i'm serious about this, fructose. your bible is probably the demon-haunted world: science as a candle in the dark by carl sagan. it's ironic, because it gets a little personal here.
sagan wrote a wonderful novel before that called contact, an open-minded, heartful treatment of life and science with some real collegiality with religion embodied in one of the characters who didn't quite make it into the movie properly. sagan was at ucla about a year before your book came out, taking questions, and i told him how much i loved his adventure into novel writing and did he plan to do more? he said he probably would, but i think something must have snapped, because a year later that sourpuss book came out and a year after that he was dead.
people will always look for that candle, but if you think science is the shortcut, you don't understand what they're looking for.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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the catholic church invented devil's advocacy, TG, so i'm sure the padres wouldn't mind a little cross examination.
would it be better for everyone if the rebels won? they're obviously scurrying around and getting nowhere, but i'm sure they have a cause of some sort.
don't forget all the decimation of native culture committed by euro colonization in the name of sweet jesus. of course the priests never pulled out swords, but they've heard lots of soldier confessions and forgiven them their sins for the price of a few hail marys.
this puts christianity on top of the dogpile of world myth, affording it the luxury of playing saint-referee in such a situation. you've given us a nice little out-of-context example here. are you trying to prove the existence of god with it? or the heroism of catholicism? read up on the st. bartholomew's day massacre and talk to your priests about that dogpile. unfortunately i don't think many of us here pay a lot of attention to african politics, so it'll be hard to take sides.
hey, i've know plenty of sincere catholic clergy. i also know that war brings out the best in people. heraclitus (herakleitos), a real greek, said that war is the father of all things. i happen to be one of its children.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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gobee is always stating things for the record. his guardian angel is writing it all down. i just wish he'd start talking to us for a change.
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pa
climber
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Jun 27, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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T-bird ,
you're on a roll...thanks for the humor and checks and balances.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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read up on the st. bartholomew's day massacre
Here's where it gets personal for me. Three out of the eight lines of family ancestors that I've traced so far, lead back to the south of France (Da Vinci Code Territory) and the Catharis, at least 30,000 of whom were massacred by the Catholic Church for being gnostics who were vegetarians and believed in reincarnation. Those who weren't killed became Protestants later and they suffered on St. Batholomew's Day. It's amazing any of them survived to make it to America.
Now an interesting point to speculate, is whether my love of France and my interest in reincarnation is some sort of genetic memory or just coincidence? And what is the relationship of genetics, past life memories, the collective unconscious and karma? Sorting that out ought to take at least another 2,000 posts.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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knocked me off my roll with that one, jan.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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um, we saw an old movie last night, two men in town, alain delon, jean gabin, a sort of liberalist comment on the french penal system and the lack of real forgiveness in a supposedly christian society. the old social worker's depairing conclusion was that society is nothing but a terrible machine.
i'm afraid the only hope i can see in any of it is basically darwinist. i see no light in religion. religions are just a part of the furious, two-sided melange of life. there is so much futile struggle, so much tragedy, and no real redemption when you have figures like jesus presiding over fascism. but hasn't it all come a long way from the prokaryotic?
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jstan
climber
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Jun 27, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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"btw, i couldn't disagree more about that, locker and jstan. we live according to what we think. maybe you guys think this is just a game."
The final metric is what you do. Lots of people think they are something other than what they actually are. Maybe all of us.
Your prokaryotic comment may turn out to be prescient. Sometime in the future it may be decided that this whole disaster became unavoidable the day the cyanobacteria decided to start increasing the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jun 27, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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There is no salvation...
you really want to believe there is...
but there is no salvation...
without religion, and people who strictly adhere to what someone else has told them to believe about the "book"...
without religion, we may have a cure for some diseases.....
Who knows what the world would be like without this dreaded Delusion: b : a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary (Sound familiar, believers?)
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 27, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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Jing-y-Jing-a-ling, I rest my case!
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dfrost7
climber
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Jun 27, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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JDF,
I've been thinking on your question for a few weeks. It is such a great question. First of all, when people ask such a question, it must be heard, and considered. Since you say you are asking seriously, I am taking time to give deliberate, serious consideration to my answer. Otherwise, those who give speed to pile on answers, on either side, can simply be hiding behind words.
I'm still forming what I want to add, but a lot has happened, since you asked this, that is pertinent to the original question.
To begin, for every believer, you have someone who once did not believe. Whether atheist, agnostic or someone who had a romantic notion of God, none of us had come to the crux of their choice. Faith is a choice.
For example, my son. He was, until four years ago, a very dogmatic atheist. A very serious atheist. He's 33. God found him. That's how it happens. People use the phrase, "I found God", but it's kind of the other way around. Actually, I guess we find Him, when we are ready. When we open our heart and mind, sincerely give the questions to Him to answer.
A few days after your original post, my very close friend at work had a massive heart attack, kidney failure, stroke ... it was bad. I've been with him nearly every day and it is crazy how much he has recovered, so far (Memorial Day Weekend). He was an atheist, too. More cynic and Christian hater type. We both teach together. He's an awesome guy and given so much to our students. Love the guy. We've been having a lot of talks about God.
My closest friend/painting partner is one, too. I don't know why God has so many of these lovely people in my life, but I do love and respect them, dearly.
They ask hard questions. They ask questions a lot of people just wish would go away.
Before real discussion is available, there really is a place of common ground that must be stood upon: 1) are you serious about this question? 2) a real relationship with the true and living God is something apart from religion. That is, God who exists, is not dependent upon religion. If there is God, Almighty, omnipresent and omniscient, all this is up to that living God - His universe, His terms. If there is no God, it doesn't matter, 3) is it possible to have a personal relationship, with such a powerful, almighty God, who created everything?
Yes, the person who is talking about what the Roman Catholic church has done, to keep people from actually knowing, and having a first handed relationship with God, is well observed. If you find fault with religion, so did Jesus Christ. He came to show you can't have a relationship with God, or a person, by ritual.
Anyway, yours is a gorgeous, simple, profound question, deserving of consideration and thought. This post, is not my answer, it's just an introduction. Gotta go see my friend at the hosp. right now. I've been thinking on this daily, excited to see it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 27, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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jstan, you're judging yourself harshly. ya don't havta do nuthin'. lookit poor gobee here--this is the second time he pasted the whole goddam bible into his post window. this is the obsessive compulsivism built into christianity. even if you're an atheist, the christian culture is so pervasive that it's an ingrained habit if you grew up in christendom.
i think it was pogo who said, "sometimes i sit and think, and sometimes i just sit." it's the judaeo-christian superego that goads us into achievement, and it's led to a world of conflicting overachievers. i think it's time to sit back and think about it for awhile, and if that doesn't work, just sit and wait for thinking to work better.
ol' huffcuss was worried that our genes aren't being pruned properly. i told him never fear, ya got too much money riding on the human race. even if worse comes to worst, it'll all reevolve again someday.
i came of age during the golden years of the hippie era. do you know what the human race realized then, possibly for the first time ever, and which has been drummed out of our consciousness ever since by the controlling powers that be? it's that nothing is more important than us.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 27, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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150 years ago my paternal ancestors had families of 12 children they could not feed. We grew up being told we had to get our act together or we would not amount to anything. History had generated a rage in them.
I'm satisfied things went as they did. I never amounted to much but still, I would change only a few things. I much enjoyed the trip and did what I could. If you only can say this as you approach the end
it's all OK.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jun 27, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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T-Bird,
Thanks for your response to my story problem. Some things in reply:
1) You're right, I probably should have prefaced it better with regard to atrocities committed by so-called Christians. St. Bartholomew's is just a snippet in that history. It is important not to set that history aside, and I wasn't trying to. Rather, I was trying to write something where the reader allows him/herself to be thrown into a situation. Analogy: You're x number of pitches up on El Cap on a rope solo, five pitches from the top. You are dehydrated and tired and a storm hits, too gnarly for YOSAR to swoop in. Both ascent and retreat is impossible. Hypopthermia is setting in. Some guy comfortable in a covered one-person portaledge on the next route over pendulums over to you and says, "Christ says that I must be willing to lay down my life for my neighbor -- even my enemy. Clip onto me, I'll swing you over. Take the ledge. I'll clip outside and ride it out." Yes, most Christians-in-name are not like this, but how do you respond?
I understand the point about broader context -- one could similarly say, "What about the style in which the pendulum was put up that the guy used, even if the guy didn't put the pins and bolts in. He's depending on that unethical fixed protection to get over to me."
The people in the village of Magwi did not a lot of time for what otherwise are good questions.
2) I was not trying to prove the correctness of Christianity or, specifically, Catholicism. I really did intend the story as a kind of theological (or anti-theological) Rorschach test. I am in agreement with a lot of the postings that have been put up: In the end, faith of any kind -- whether in Jesus God or in science (which has its own presuppositions and leaps) or randomness (ditto)-- cannot be proven, only displayed. The frauds -- of whatever stripe -- will be found out.
3) These exchanges are at once fun and serious, but my family and job beckon. A friend introduced me to Supertopo and this thread a few days ago, and it has quickly overtaken drinking single malt scotch as my favorite, and thus most dangerous, compulsive activity. Mae West was only partly right when she said, "Too much of a good thing is better." I've got to bow out for a bit.
Take!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 27, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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it's that nothing is more important than God! were a close second!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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Although following these threads for some time now and reading some impressive thoughts from some obviously educated minds, this verse deeply saddens me for some will be, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." - 2 Timothy 3:7 The six verses that preceed this one are so fitting as well, for my own resume' looked like this for twenty eight years before I found it.
What is the "truth" you may be wondering? "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6
Now, those are some pretty profound declarations to be spouting off or for a "man" to be making up and not being able to back up!
Please, please, "I beseech (beg) you bretheren", consider knowing the truth!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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"...one nation, under God..."; "In God we trust."; "God bless America..."; "Is the United States mentioned in the bible?", you might ask. "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." - Psalm 33:12
Do you know what the above means? Ultimately, that we have the freedom to honor, to lift up God, to esteem God, to make God look good, to let God into and be a part of our daily lives as Americans! Can you see it? Look where the U.S.A is today and you wonder why? Freedom is God, people!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 28, 2010 - 01:43am PT
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Fredrick-
Look at where western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada are today. They're all free and prosperous places which are much less religious than the U.S.
Then there's Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore who have no Christian tradition at all, also free and prosperous.
They are followed by the rising giants of India (Hindu) and China (Confucian and Communist) and others like Malaysia (Muslin, Confucian, and Hindu) and Thailand (Buddhist). India is in fact the world's most populous democracy.
You can hardly argue that freedom and prosperity is limited to either Christians or to America. Just because something was true at one point in history doesn't mean it's always true.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 01:53am PT
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When you consider all the forces, histories, confusions and the self interests invariably involved in a people's culture, humans really seem to be trying to go in a good direction.
Would really be nice though if we could do it without going down quite so many dead ends.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 02:20am PT
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Oh, but Jan, I see you misunderstood my plea as an American...America is in a crisis and a decline as "one nation under God" and it was my intent to open the eyes of those fellow Americans out there as well as reach out to others that do not know God.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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Locker...
Could you clarify your last a bit?
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 02:39am PT
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So, I believe I God because of "GREED"?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 28, 2010 - 02:52am PT
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Fredrick-
You misunderstood me as well, my point being that plenty of other societies are doing well without religion, let alone our particular brand of it. Therefore one suspects that our current difficulties have to do with something other than lack of religion and belief in God.
I personally think that one of the things we are coming to terms with is our lack of exceptionalism. We aren't better than other people, though for sure, we do some things better. Meanwhile, God doesn't love us any more than anyone else. In fact, if God were to judge us on the genocide of the Native Americans and the enslavement of the Africans, we'd fare very poorly compared to the other prosperous societies I mentioned.
More likely, we are in the process of going from a frontier society with unlimited possibilities to a more mature, corrupted and class ridden society just like the Old World our ancestors fled. In fact, I'd argue that we are more corrupted and class ridden than the other democracies precisely because a large portion of our society deludes itself into thinking that we're different and better than others.
They are of course encouraged in this by clever politicians who, along with their wealthy benefactors, profit handsomely from their cynical use of religious bias.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 28, 2010 - 05:58am PT
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Like ethnic identity, every religion has a dimension of exclusivity expressed in its history and conventions, its observances and precepts, its emblems and their connotations…that create a certain distance between itself and non believers....or the followers of other faiths. That, in itself, is not the calamity. Many societies have lived with diverse belief systems for centuries.
Religion, atheism, or ethnic identity cannot be permitted to break apart this diverse society of OURS. Considering the emotional passion it commands…religious belief, perhaps more than any form of identification…can be abused to spawn continual tension and strife.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 28, 2010 - 07:30am PT
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According to University of British Columbia researchers, Dr Ara Norenzayan and Dr.Azim Shariff… religious people are more likely than the non-religious to engage in prosocial behavior…and belief in God encourages people to be helpful, honest and generous, but only under certain psychological conditions.
Their paper "The Origin and Evolution of Religious Prosociality" appears in the October 3, 2008 issue of the journal Science…
…can be read at:
http://www.rifters.com/real/articles/Science_TheOriginandEvolutionofReligiousProsociality.pdf
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jstan
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 10:28am PT
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Jennie pretty well states how we have long resolved these issues in the US. Radical christianity however threatens it all through its unwillingness to recognize the responsibility rests with the individual to question, to make their own decisions and to decide social questions in the general interest. Not the purely religious interest.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 28, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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Romans 13 (New International Version)
Romans 13
Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
In light of this passage how does an orthodox Christian believer justify the American Revolution?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 28, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Jennie-
That was a very interesting paper as were some of the others it referenced. I've maintained here and especially on the previous evolution vs creation thread, that religion provides an evolutionary advantage and that's why it exists. I'm glad to see that there is now interdisciplinary social science research on the topic.
My problem is with the claim that only one religion is good for everyone. To anyone who has lived or studied non western cultures that's clearly not the case. Particularly in the East Asian cultures with their mix of several religions and the prevailing social philosophy of Confucianism, one has to talk about a value system rather than all encompassing religion.
There is so much research yet to be done by both social and natural scientists. Perhaps eventually the natural scientists will find religion an acceptable research topic if only to prove or disprove what social scientists have concluded. You see how the scientific materialists here have studiously avoided discussing possibilities like the connection of genetics to past life memories or the idea that acupuncture could be based on something western medicine doesn't know yet.
Meanwhile here's an interesting quote from one of the references to the paper you cited.
"Narvaez (2010, this issue) calls for a moral psychology in which reasoning and intuitions are equal partners. But empirical research on the power of implicit processes and on the weakness of everyday reasoning indicates that the partnership is far from equal. The ancient rationalist faith that good reasoning can be taught and that it will lead to improved behavior is no longer justified. The social intuitionist model (Haidt, 2001) is a more realistic portrayal of the ways that moral intuition and reasoning work together".
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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“We are the greatest country on the face of the earth!”
First mistake is false pride.
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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Jun 28, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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In my view, humans come up with stories (such as god and religion) to satisfy our lack of understanding on the scope of this universe and our place in it.
Indigenous peoples (having a more obvious connection with their surroundings), develop such stories of god and religion, but notice their connectedness to each other, all other species and habitats. That connectedness is something modern humans have unfortunately lost which stimulates many of us to embrace a human-centered and patriarchal god-centered worldview (such as judeo-christian).
Dr, F, (as we discussed), the most open-minded universal view would be an agnostic one where we are open to ideas and explanations that are both spiritual and atheistic.
We are no more than specks of dust in an inconceivably large sand beach, with waves splashing over us.....
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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Dr F -- "God, how we love to lie to ourselves!"
You just used the word "God".
You're an atheist that has continually said "GOD DOES NOT EXIST"
Make up your mind dude ....... :-)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 28, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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no, gobee, that's the whole point. god is not more important than us. until you realize that, you'll keep pasting the entire bible into that ST post window a couple times a week. after you die, your little ghost will keep doing it in a place called virtual reality, which you may have heard of. this sort of thing could go on forever. break the cycle of compulsion now. think for gobee before it's too late.
c'mon, now, you can trust kind old uncle tony. (mwahahahahaha!)
Oh, but Jan, I see you misunderstood my plea as an American...America is in a crisis and a decline as "one nation under God" and it was my intent to open the eyes of those fellow Americans out there as well as reach out to others that do not know God
fred, it sounds to me like you're out to save god. holysmokes, if that doesn't bring it full circle. you're supposed to be trusting god, old son. god doesn't need any of your help. haven't you learned that yet? hasn't gobee?
dr. F, you better google something called nasco and other things related to that highway. too many reports to believe otherwise. you won't get official confirmation, if that's what you're looking for, but you won't get official confirmation that dick cheney was just itching to drop a nuke on iran about three years ago when the rumor mill was furious over that one. there's plenty of give and take, based on how much you can ram down the public gullet before the puke instinct kicks in. i think this sucker is on a back burner. stop reading writers who make you feel good.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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There's only ONE God Jan.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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gobee and I both Tony. I'm out to save those like you Tony. It is commanded of me.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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Define "fear" Dr. F...
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
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How do you define "free" Jan? You might want to trace it's roots back to it's origin.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
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Little "g" god is satan Tony. Capital "G" God is the Lord, please take note of that.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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Whether Americans realize it or not they enjoy the freedom they do because of America being formed a nation under God! Again, God is freedom!
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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Hashbro, "In my view...", check out what the bible says about your view...
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
That's pretty bold for a "man", as some say the Bible was written by, to just come out and say without being able to back it up, wouldn't you say?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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Fredrick -- "I'm out to save those like you Tony. It is commanded of me."
No wonder people can't stand so called "Christians".
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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Werner, Werner, Tony is a non-believer. It is commanded of me to save the lost, thats all. No harsh intentions by my last.
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." - Matthew 28:18-20
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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Fredrick-
You're confusing religion with patriotism, a common mistake in America.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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Sorry Jan, where did I confuse freedom with patriotism?
PAT'RIOTISM ,n. Love of one's country; the passion which aims to serve one's country, either in defending it from invasion, or protecting its rights and maintaining its laws and institutions in vigor and purity. Patriotism is the characteristic of a good citizen, the noblest passion that animates a man in the character of a citizen.
I spent seven month's in Iraq next to the Euphrates River near the city of Hit (Heet) Aug '04 - March '05. I'm familiar with Patriotism.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
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Once again, Fredrick, there are many free countries in this world besides America and not all of them are religious and none of them believe in the Christian fundamentalist God that you believe in.
Iraq is not a free country but it does have a lot of people who believe in God and who are convinced that they have the truth and you don't and they're willing to die for it.
Since I've worked overseas in support of the American military for 32 years now, I also know a thing or two about patriotism.
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turd
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
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" I don't think being agnostic is the most open minded position"
Having an open mind is not the same as not having an opinion. I think you can be open minded from almost any point on the religious spectrum if you choose to be.
For example, my opinion is that the bible is a fairy tale, and if there is a God, he/she it ain't the one Pat Robertson has in mind.
But - if Jesus shows up on Larry King tomorrow night, I'll probably be reevaluating my position. Same goes for the Quran if Mohammed shows up on the View.
Seems pretty open minded to me...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 28, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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The New Testament strictly prohibits revolting against the government and assures the divine right of kings.
How can a true Christian be patriotic to a government the formation of which is based on disobedience to the scriptures?
Can an American Christian be patriotic?
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jun 28, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
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what about the
mother godess
go be?
you all about
him and his?
your bible don't
even tell half
the story.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 28, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
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mommeeee! i don't want the crazy man to save me!
oops, did somebody say mother goddess? i don't think i want her either ...
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 28, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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So much for love?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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In my view, humans come up with stories (such as god and religion) to satisfy our lack of understanding on the scope of this universe and our place in it.
There may be truth in that, but it has absolutely no bearing on whatever actually IS the scope of the universe, what our place in it is, or if there is a ultimate Being or not.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
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"Christ is not in your heart."
That's not true at all.
He's within the heart of every living entity.
Christ comes from the word Christo, Christo, is a Greek word.
The meaning of Christo is lover, anointed.
Christ title was given to Jesus on account of his love for God.
Even a blade of grass can not move without "Christ" ....
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jstan
climber
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Jun 28, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Werner is speaking to a post that I deleted.
I decided it was not productive.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jun 28, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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"Christ is being abused most horribly. By people claiming to follow him."
Your right! That's the worst of the worst!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 29, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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I just started an interesting new book titled, American Jesus: How the Son of God Became a National Icon, by Stephen Prothero.
It's a great review of Christianity in America from the earliest days to the present and shows very well how our religious views are inevitably shaped by the wider culture and society. Everything from Puritans to Mormons to Jesus the Yogi - it's all there. Guaranteed to make a person re-examine their views.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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go-b - it's "you're" not "your" when you mean "you are". The scripture quoting nonsense is bad enough, but the bad writing is really offensive... makes me want to take the lord's name in vain....
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:21am PT
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Jan, suggestion...stop reading man's views on God's Word and start with the Bible instead. Even God Himself says in Genesis 6:5, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." "...for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth:" - Gen 8:21. If God's Word is truth that makes everything contrary to His word a lie! Run with that one!
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dr. juicer kaniglio
Trad climber
san diego, ca
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:23am PT
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I believe in Universal Consciousness. I never identified with the word or concept of God. I think that Jesus, Buddha, and all other religious figures are mythological characters,used to help people understand Universal truths and laws that humanity has come to realize over a long period of time.
Why people worship the figures of these mythological characters is very difficult for me to understand. After all, werent the deeds the important part in the first place?
There is always a better way! If you dont live by this personal philosophy than you live in stagnation. When I picture statues of Buddha or Jesus, I picture them to be very old, with spiderwebs in the corners... whatever happened to right now?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:55am PT
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Why people worship the figures of these mythological characters is very difficult for me to understand.
It because obsessive power mongers are able to take advantage of peoples' spiritual disconnection from the-spirit-that-moves-in-all-things and their desperate gullibility in wishing to reconnect; and so manipulate them using these myths. For example the Roman Empire took on protective coloration from Christianity, calling itself a church and reclassifying the emperor as a Pope. This organization and its many offshoots share nothing in common with the barefoot visionary who came out of the desert except clever PR positioning.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 29, 2010 - 04:10am PT
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You know, I just realized; how can a non-believer of Jesus Christ give an accurate opinion as to, "Why do so many people believe in God?" This post should consist of believers testimonies! But look what the thread primarily consists of!
God hit it right on the head when the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem said,"And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labor that I had laboured to do: and behold, all was vanity (nothing) and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:17, 2:11
After reading these humbling verses it really makes me empty my mind and imaginations and ask the holy Spirit of God to establish my thoughts, guide my sight, my hands and my feet for I am nothing without you Lord. Please help me to glorify You and to love others. My prayers are with you all.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jun 29, 2010 - 05:03am PT
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Please take the time (37:55) to grab a Bible KJV, and listen to an outstanding message given by Colonel Ryberg, USMC (retired), at my church, Lighthouse Baptist Church on Sunday June 27th, 2010. Powerful message!
God, War, Country and You: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/LighthouseBaptistChurch-Preaching
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 29, 2010 - 05:46am PT
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Fredrick-
That sermon would never convert anybody who didn't already believe in that particular doctrine. Please note that the speaker, a Marine Corps officer, has to preach that kind of a sermon in an off base church because military rules do not allow criticism of other people's religions in a base chapel. That's because our military is sworn to uphold the Constitution and the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
There are many historical errors in that sermon as well. The U.S. was not founded on the triune God. The founding fathers were predominantly Unitarians and Deists, not trinitarian Christians. The Jewish people who fought in the Revolution were also not believers in the trinity and Thomas Paine was a self declared atheist.
Much of this as well as early Christian history and where the Bible came from has already been discussed earlier on this thread.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 12:23pm PT
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gobe, i'm assuming you're a real climber, so let me address that depression at the disbelief of others which is the flipside of your elation with your own belief.
belief in something as fantastic as basic christianity involves a great deal of risk. it's like being 'way out on lead. you may think you've got a good belayer and great pro, but thinking it and having it are two different stories, as every climber knows. you may think you can do this route, based on your estimation of your own abilities or your knowledge of the FA, but you're still at risk on the runout.
i'm not saying you're right or wrong, buddy, just trying to explain your feelings to yourself. i was a big believer once and a bit fierce about it, but i got knocked off the horse on the road to damascus in a different way. i've got my reasons for messing around here. i'm believe-and-let-believe at heart, but a few things have gotten out of hand.
jan, thanks for looking at that link for me. it really didn't seem too promising.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 29, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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Earlier somebody asked, Well, what keeps you up at night? What questions do YOU have?
I really would like to know what hypercratic powers (i.e, those powers that control our lives and Cosmos on a grand scale) made the universe lumpy and fragmented. If only I had the answer to this question- the real one- my life would be that much more complete.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 29, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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Another question: I wonder how long it will take Google to hit on "hypercratic powers"? Right now, 29 june 2010, zero hits. I'm guessing one day.
For the record:
As of today, "hypercratic power" (singular) also gets zero. (This means it's pretty friggin original.)
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jstan
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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HFCS:
You are not alone. That lumpiness question, above that suggested by the cosmic microwave background, has been keeping several people awake at night. So far the problem has helped lead to a model wherein shortly after the big bang the universe expanded at supraluminal velocities plus the existence of large amounts of "dark matter".
A great deal of work has been done and searches for tests continue on apace. Perhaps Ed can weigh in here. A fascinating advance in our understanding awaits us.
Google "astro.berkeley.edu/~mwhite/modelcmp.html"
The link itself does not take you there.
A thousand years from now, if we are still here, I think this period will be looked back upon as a new age of enlightenment. Very exciting stuff.
But that "IF" is a very big if.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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Really I'm done with this thread, as I stated above. My inability to confront my desire to remain comfortable with "the certainties of my own mental constructs and beliefs" probably disqualifies me for a discussion on spiritual issues...
...not to mention my arrogance.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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poor old fructo, having trouble getting his religion off the ground.
fruct, you came to the right place. jan and i represent belief systems incorporated. dr. f will want to listen up too.
having trouble out there in the big bad universe? things not making sense? feeling ill-at-ease, queasy, even a little depressed? before you take the lyme test, consider that you may well have THE WRONG BELIEF SYSTEM.
friends, there are so many belief systems out there. a lot of them work well for a lot of people, but if yours puts you off balance, you may well need a new one, tailored especially to your karma, charisma, chrism and jism, the right geist for your zeitgeist.
come to belief systems inc. our expert personnel with exam every nook and cranny of your misery and construct the edifice of belief which will give you a new lease on life, improve your score in the dating game, bring untold wealth and power, and perhaps even jack you up a full tenth higher on the YDS. two letter grades are guaranteed. this for a modest advance on the reasonable tithe to be levied on certain health, prosperity and, dare we say, ecstasy (now, now), or at least rapture.
or was that raptors. involved in way too many threads here.
offer not good where prohibited by jailed popes.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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I think Tony and Ed have just given you guys "the bird."
HFCS's search for a new religion, in my clumsy opinion, was also a bird.
We are working a triple bird here!
When the new pope interrupted his efforts to defend his priests who were paying too much attention to the little boys
and put Galileo back under house arrest
I knew we were on the brink of making some progress.
Keep it up folks. I'll be defeated only if you do what TG is doing.
He is asking
"Really! What was christ actually asking us to do? I mean really.
Do we not need to stop letting two bit political hacks use christ and us in the effort to fill their wallets?"
At a minimum you folks need to ask for some of the action.
At a minimum.
I could not write the script for a comedy
this absurd.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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Ed
I don't believe you're arrogant at all.
Neither is jstan.
But if someone tries to "Invent" a new religion that will surely create a nightmare down the line.
The English word "religion" conveys the idea of faith, and faith may change.
Real true religion is "dharma", (sanātana-dharma) which is: an activity which cannot be changed.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
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Go-B wrote
I'll try again, we are saved through Faith in Jesus, there's no other name under heaven by which we are saved!
I'm a big fan of your guy and the teachings that he personally taught (not what Saul of Tarsus did with them) but..
You know that neither himself, nor his followers, or his apostles, ever called him (Yeshua in Aramaic I'm told) the name Jesus, so there must be other names under heaven that 'God' (another word particular to certain languages) can answer to.
as an aside, I'd like to restate that the problem of "Believing" in God, or even whether that belief means or what it accomplishes, is a separate matter than the actual existence of God. 4000 years ago, folks didn't have any means to understand or "believe" in electricity. It would have taken a long time for an accurate belief in electricity to come about and for that belief to impact daily life.
Why type that? Cause we can't blame God (except if you believe he is an old man in the sky with his panties in a bunch) for the abuse of religion. We obviously in this earth game to play without the help of the umpire cause if God "Really" "Wanted" for us to "Believe" in him, it would be a simple matter for him to show up and say "Here I am...Dig me" as it is, even those who "Believe" in God (thinking he needs that) are certainly mistaken about God's nature and "desires."
Peace
Karl
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Did a Man later called Jesus actually exist?
ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS
No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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(1) What if people (e.g., the average joe) were as ignorant about hypercratic power (i.e., the controlling power or powers of the Cosmos) as they are about electricity? What if, huh? ;)
(2) I think of natural selection as a significant "hypercratic power."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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THE BIBLE GOSPELS
The most "authoritative" accounts of a historical Jesus come from the four canonical Gospels of the Bible. Note that these Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. Many heretical gospels existed by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. He claimed only four in number; according to Romer, "like the four zones of the world, the four winds, the four divisions of man's estate, and the four forms of the first living creatures-- the lion of Mark, the calf of Luke, the man of Matthew, the eagle of John (see Against the Heresies). The four gospels then became Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost." [Romer]
Elaine Pagels writes: "Although the gospels of the New Testament-- like those discovered at Nag Hammadi-- are attributed to Jesus' followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them." [Pagels, 1995]
Not only do we not know who wrote them, consider that none of the Gospels existed during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Add to this that none of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies.
The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. [Pagels, 1995; Helms]. This would make it some 40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus that we have any Gospel writings that mention him! Elaine Pagels writes that "the first Christian gospel was probably written during the last year of the war, or the year it ended. Where it was written and by whom we do not know; the work is anonymous, although tradition attributes it to Mark..." [Pagels, 1995]
same source above
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:47pm PT
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If, indeed, such a well known Jesus existed, as the gospels allege, does any reader here think it reasonable that, at the very least, the fame of Jesus would not have reached the ears of one of these men?
Amazingly, we have not one Jewish, Greek, or Roman writer, even those who lived in the Middle East, much less anywhere else on the earth, who ever mention him during his supposed life time. This appears quite extraordinary, and you will find few Christian apologists who dare mention this embarrassing fact.
To illustrate this extraordinary absence of Jesus Christ literature, just imagine going through nineteenth century literature looking for an Abraham Lincoln but unable to find a single mention of him in any writing on earth until the 20th century. Yet straight-faced Christian apologists and historians want you to buy a factual Jesus out of a dearth void of evidence, and rely on nothing but hearsay written well after his purported life. Considering that most Christians believe that Jesus lived as God on earth, the Almighty gives an embarrassing example for explaining his existence. You'd think a Creator might at least have the ability to bark up some good solid evidence.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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Did a Man later called Jesus actually exist?
ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS
No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
Horus is the reason for the season!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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Internal ghosts for sure, they control the body machine. Think about it, how else could meat move...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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I would like to see a counter presentation from this thread's Christians
refuting any of the facts I have presented above.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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You, Satan, are leading us astray from the light of the Lord.
Facts are the Devil's handiwork!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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And here is the ultimate proof of primate evolution.
Original photo credit to Dirtbag.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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If "they" allow one chink of reason or a single questioning of their belief system to enter their minds, their entire faith could then be in question and they NEED to believe, in the entirety, the dogma of evangelical Christianity. They need to believe because they have placed their lives on that dogma and they will be overwhelmed with fear they have no psychological container for if they allow themselves the tiniest question.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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I have a lot of faith in those Norton.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Here, here, Norton. My "God" I fell about the floor and uttered words that were not my own. I have seen the promised land...wait that's a different guy. Dam I was on a roll too....
Tony
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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"If "they" allow one chink of reason or a single questioning of their belief system to enter their minds, their entire faith could then be in question and they NEED to believe, in the entirety, the dogma of evangelical Christianity."
Again there's two words, (if, could), in your statement that is based on pure guessing and total mental speculation given with a broad "wave of the hand blanket statement".
This says clearly how you look at the "World" ........
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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Norton, your citations questioning the historicity of Jesus are mostly folly. There's no reason to think Jesus (his greek name) didn't exist. It's open to a much bigger debate if he did and said everything ascribed to him.
Remember that 2000 years ago, the vast majority of people (including most followers of Jesus) were illiterate. There were no printing presses, no newspapers, no phones, no nothing.
and it's clear that "Christianity" started as a very small faction (cult even) within Judasim. There were many such groups at that time. Christ only taught 3 years before his death and no media spread his message, which caught on later in other areas but was not popular in Jerusalem, the center of power and authority.
While Jesus and his teachings were a big deal to those to whom he reached, they were relatively few, relatively rural, and most of Israel was totally ignorant of his existence (or just dismissed the rumors because they were fixed in their own religious practice)
So it's not surprising that mentions of Jesus outside the bible are rare. It's obvious that people risked their lives to spread Christianity early on, it's doubtful that such a thing would get started without some actual person to base (or distort) their info on.
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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At the time of Jesus the Mediterranean world was filled with "mystery religions" all of which are strikingly similar to Christianity.
The genius of Christianity was to Hellenize Judaism into one of these mystery religions predicated on the old testament as an accurate historical document thus lending historical reality to what was essentially a new cult (Christianity).
There are certainly more documented sightings of Apollo than there are of J. C.
Take somebody's claim for the impossible at your own risk.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
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pure guessing and total mental speculation
hmm, as I have had quite a bit of interaction with evangelical Christians, enough to be able to "pass" as one, I feel I have enough direct experience on which to base my above assessment.
If and could imply possibility, and evangelicals don't really like to allow for possibility outside of their particular faith. From the inside, it is completely different. In fact, once I have been assessed and found to be "saved", I can have a really interesting discussion of the personal dynamics of faith in God.
I myself have found wonderful comfort and sustenance from the book of Matthew. I follow the prime directive so often quoted here in this thread "no other way except by me" with this interpretation "no other way except my way" and as Jesus generally taught about Love and Forgiveness and Service, I have no problem with going his way. (Although I'd never identify myself as a Christian. I'm "spiritual not religious".)
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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Ok thanks Daphne
Your rebuttal makes sense .....
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jun 29, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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the path to enlightenment is sodden with search.
without speculation and search and inquiry and hypothesis and prologned blinks and palm on chin, the mind becomes the void.
werner, unbottle the mystery. it shouldn't be pickled.
unharness it and ride it bareback. cut the leash and see where it flees.
christians and werner alike have stamped out the unknown by changing the grammer of the universal statement, replacing the question mark with a period?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 29, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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Search is correct.
But pure guessing and labeling it as fact is not searching.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 29, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
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just a little devil's advocacy for you, norton, and i hope it beats karl's kontrarianism.
BITD, writing and publishing didn't go on the way they do now. yes, there was some writing, but most of it would have been limited to things kept in special places like royal palaces, temples, a few libraries, and privately by rare individuals who esteemed learning.
so let's imagine jesus coming along, being an extraordinary spiritual holy man, and, as part of his karma, he lives rather existentially and puts all his money, so to speak, on the worth of his influence among those he has taught. this is not an unreasonable scenario, and it would explain, again not unreasonably, the matter we have in hand, a variety of "gospels", not just the big four, written by god knows who, but named, for whatever reason, after supposedly prominent figures in jesus's life. it's unclear what connection there could be beyond that.
it's also generally agreed that the letters of paul were written somewhat before any of the gospels. they were written to existing christian communities in greece, asia minor and rome in paul's missionary effort to pull a religion together. the gospel writing came afterward.
we have to assume that most interaction over the fuss about jesus was personal, not literary. but to reconstruct it, we have to rely on the literary, and it's a real hodge-podge. you really have to put the "big four" alongside all the others and oil up your sense of humor too, for something like the infant gospel of jesus. and you have to understand that the writing just wasn't that important then. whatever this religious movement was, it didn't depend on it.
also consider "fame". jesus didn't make big waves in the ancient world. miracles, if they indeed occurred, would have been generally discounted. sounds like he was a bit of a blasphemer of things held sacred, and he just joined the many who couldn't conform to the whims of a brutal empire. to me, it speaks for the spiritual credibility of jesus to say that christianity had to grab people inside, personally, in order to stick. it was a smaller world in one way, and way too big in another. there weren't any news reporters to run down rumors of water being turned into wine.
i don't have much invested in this, and, i admit, i find it fun to bedevil believers with it because they have too much invested in the narrow bit of literature which was singled out to be made orthodox. norton, read some of the more recent pagels, bart ehrman and others--this field changes quickly.
your cutie there, nort? dirtbag's? i think she disproves it. she was molded directly by god.
lolli--seen any?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 29, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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"If you'd come today you could have reached the whole nation,
Israel in 4 B.C. had no mass communication." -The Gospel according to Tim Rice
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 30, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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I follow the prime directive so often quoted here in this thread "no other way except by me" with this interpretation "no other way except my way" and as Jesus generally taught about Love and Forgiveness and Service,I have no problem with going his way.
Thanks Daphne! This is certainly my own view and I believe it also represents the view of the majority of Christians today. Unfortunately those with more narrow interpretations generally out shout the more love, forgiveness, and service oriented Christians.
Other passages that would back up this view include those that say
"In my Father's house are many mansions"
"Those who are not against us are for us"
"Those who do the will of my Father in Heaven are my followers" and then gives the criteria as those who feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, help widows and orphans, visit the sick and those in prison.
Not one mention of dogma there in order to be a follower of either Jesus or God.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 30, 2010 - 01:04am PT
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The earliest images of Christ in Rome depict him both as Orpheus and Christ. Why?
There seems to be a confusion between the two: Orpheus as the good shepherd/Christ as the good shepherd. Christ crucified/Orpheus Crucified.
The Orphic mystery rites may have been a primary initial force behind the success of Christianity.
In the Dionysic mystery religion the sacrament is wine, in the Eleusinian mysteries the sacrament is grain: the wine and the wafer.
These similarities are indicative of Christianity's source.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 30, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS
No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.
Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge.
Courts of law do not generally allow hearsay as testimony, and nor does honest modern scholarship. Hearsay provides no proof or good evidence, and therefore, we should dismiss it.
If you do not understand this, imagine yourself confronted with a charge for a crime which you know you did not commit. You feel confident that no one can prove guilt because you know that there exists no evidence whatsoever for the charge against you. Now imagine that you stand present in a court of law that allows hearsay as evidence. When the prosecution presents its case, everyone who takes the stand against you claims that you committed the crime, not as a witness themselves, but solely because they claim other people said so. None of these other people, mind you, ever show up in court, nor can anyone find them.
Hearsay does not work as evidence because we have no way of knowing whether the person lied, or simply based his or her information on wrongful belief or bias. We know from history about witchcraft trials and kangaroo courts that hearsay provides neither reliable nor fair statements of evidence. We know that mythology can arise out of no good information whatsoever. We live in a world where many people believe in demons, UFOs, ghosts, or monsters, and an innumerable number of fantasies believed as fact taken from nothing but belief and hearsay. It derives from these reasons why hearsay cannot serves as good evidence, and the same reasoning must go against the claims of a historical Jesus or any other historical person.
Authors of ancient history today, of course, can only write from indirect observation in a time far removed from their aim. But a valid historian's own writing gets cited with sources that trace to the subject themselves, or to eyewitnesses and artifacts. For example, a historian today who writes about the life of George Washington, of course, can not serve as an eyewitness, but he can provide citations to documents which give personal or eyewitness accounts. None of the historians about Jesus give reliable sources to eyewitnesses, therefore all we have remains as hearsay.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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See Bill Maher on Larry King last night?
He said 24% of Americans believe Jesus will return in their lifetime.
He started giggling before saying "Isn't that a little egotistical?"
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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norton, trying to find a reference on this, but not having luck.
anyway, met a fellow a year or two ago who's a professor in this area of the roots of christianity. he was at a CFI event, a skeptics-type group. he got a little grumpy when i brought up pagels and ehrman--i think they sell more books than he does.
this fellow is one of a small group who contends that jesus never existed. he told the whole yeshua story and so forth, and he admitted that he belongs to a rather small minority in this area of scholarship. can't find a link to him.
yes, interesting facts, norton, and of course, anything is possible--or impossible. i have a book called "caesar's messiah" by a california dude, as half-educated as i am, who bills himself "a successful businessman and long-time student of christianity". he thinks the roman empire cooked the whole thing up. it'd be a lot heavier book if he were a successful scholar.
i'll tell you why i don't think jesus never existed, and it has to do with all those gnostic gospels and apocrypha. jesus caused a fuss, and it was rather a messy fuss. that tends to indicate something real. the churches made the big mistake of suppressing some of their best evidence at a time when there wasn't enough sophistication to sort it through.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 30, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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Continuing the Did Jesus Exist SAGA:
THE BIBLE GOSPELS
The most "authoritative" accounts of a historical Jesus come from the four canonical Gospels of the Bible. Note that these Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. Many heretical gospels existed by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. He claimed only four in number; according to Romer, "like the four zones of the world, the four winds, the four divisions of man's estate, and the four forms of the first living creatures-- the lion of Mark, the calf of Luke, the man of Matthew, the eagle of John (see Against the Heresies). The four gospels then became Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost." [Romer]
Elaine Pagels writes: "Although the gospels of the New Testament-- like those discovered at Nag Hammadi-- are attributed to Jesus' followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them." [Pagels, 1995]
Not only do we not know who wrote them, consider that none of the Gospels existed during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Add to this that none of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies.
The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. [Pagels, 1995; Helms]. This would make it some 40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus that we have any Gospel writings that mention him! Elaine Pagels writes that "the first Christian gospel was probably written during the last year of the war, or the year it ended. Where it was written and by whom we do not know; the work is anonymous, although tradition attributes it to Mark..." [Pagels, 1995]
The traditional Church has portrayed the authors as the apostles Mark, Luke, Matthew, & John, but scholars know from critical textural research that there simply occurs no evidence that the gospel authors could have served as the apostles described in the Gospel stories. Yet even today, we hear priests and ministers describing these authors as the actual disciples of Christ. Many Bibles still continue to label the stories as "The Gospel according to St. Matthew," "St. Mark," "St. Luke," St. John." No apostle would have announced his own sainthood before the Church's establishment of sainthood. But one need not refer to scholars to determine the lack of evidence for authorship. As an experiment, imagine the Gospels without their titles. See if you can find out from the texts who wrote them; try to find their names.
Even if the texts supported the notion that the apostles wrote them, consider that the average life span of humans in the first century came to around 30, and very few people lived to 70. If the apostles births occurred at about the same time as the alleged Jesus, and wrote their gospels in their old age, that would put Mark at least 70 years old, and John at over 110.
The gospel of Mark describes the first written Bible gospel. And although Mark appears deceptively after the Matthew gospel, the gospel of Mark got written at least a generation before Matthew. From its own words, we can deduce that the author of Mark had neither heard Jesus nor served as his personal follower. Whoever wrote the gospel, he simply accepted the mythology of Jesus without question and wrote a crude an ungrammatical account of the popular story at the time. Any careful reading of the three Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke) will reveal that Mark served as the common element between Matthew and Luke and gave the main source for both of them. Of Mark's 666* verses, some 600 appear in Matthew, some 300 in Luke. According to Randel Helms, the author of Mark, stands at least at a third remove from Jesus and more likely at the fourth remove. [Helms]
* Most Bibles show 678 verses for Mark, not 666, but many Biblical scholars think the last 12 verses came later from interpolation. The earliest manuscripts and other ancient sources do not have Mark 16: 9-20. Moreover the text style does not match and the transition between verse 8 and 9 appears awkward. Even some of today's Bibles such as the NIV exclude the last 12 verses.
The author of Matthew had obviously gotten his information from Mark's gospel and used them for his own needs. He fashioned his narrative to appeal to Jewish tradition and Scripture. He improved the grammar of Mark's Gospel, corrected what he felt theologically important, and heightened the miracles and magic.
The author of Luke admits himself as an interpreter of earlier material and not an eyewitness (Luke 1:1-4). Many scholars think the author of Luke lived as a gentile, or at the very least, a Hellenized Jew. Many modern scholars think that the Gospel of Matthew and Luke came from the Mark gospel and a hypothetical document called "Q" (German Quelle, which means "source"). [Helms; Wilson] . However, since we have no manuscript from Q, no one could possibly determine its author or where or how he got his information or the date of its authorship. Again we get faced with unreliable methodology and obscure sources.
John, the last appearing Bible Gospel, presents us with long theological discourses from Jesus and could not possibly have come as literal words from a historical Jesus. The Gospel of John disagrees with events described in Mark, Matthew, and Luke. Moreover the unknown author(s) of this gospel wrote it in Greek near the end of the first century, and according to Bishop Shelby Spong, the book "carried within it a very obvious reference to the death of John Zebedee (John 21:23)." [Spong]
Please understand that the stories themselves cannot serve as examples of eyewitness accounts since they came as products of the minds of the unknown authors, and not from the characters themselves. The Gospels describe narrative stories, written almost virtually in the third person. People who wish to portray themselves as eyewitnesses will write in the first person, not in the third person. Moreover, many of the passages attributed to Jesus could only have come from the invention of its authors. For example, many of the statements of Jesus claim to have come from him while allegedly alone. If so, who heard him? It becomes even more marked when the evangelists report about what Jesus thought. To whom did Jesus confide his thoughts? Clearly, the Gospels employ techniques that fictional writers use. In any case the Gospels can only serve, at best, as hearsay, and at worst, as fictional, mythological, or falsified stories.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jun 30, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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"See Bill Maher on Larry King last night?
He said 24% of Americans believe Jesus will return in their lifetime." Yeah. You'd think this was the 11th century, not the 21st.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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HFCS,
Luckily for Bill Maher he lives now although many would
like to tie him to a stake and burn him a la 1100 peoples' court justice.
Having just read William Manchester's book on the Reformation I got
the distinct impression that far fewer than 24% of people then would
have thought Jesus would return in their lifetime. While we may have
largely eschewed geocentrism we have become more egocentric to think
Jesus is gonna come bail us out of our predicament.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jun 30, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
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Time for some humor.
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pa
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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Nice Jan...thanks!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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norton, jan's long posts are easier to read.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 02:47pm PT
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Yeah, I'd say these two have souls...
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 02:47pm PT
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I believe in a benign Dog.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
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Thanks Jan! Best laugh I've had in days!
Reminds me of a joke:
A guy passes on and is ushered through the pearly gates. He's being shown around heaven.
"Here's the Presbyterians", the angel whispers.
"And here's the Catholics", the angels whispers.
"The Lutherans are over here." the angel continues to whisper.
"Why are we whispering?", the guy asks.
The angel replies
"Because they all think they are alone."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 30, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
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Norton- "Did Jesus Exist?"
"Almost no educated person these days doubts that Jesus lived." Time Magazine, p. 4 Nov 2002
Indeed, all reputable historians, regardless of religious persuasion, realize that the evidence for Jesus' existence is at least as good as for Julius Cesare's. The only doubters are non-historians, writing for humanists publishers and Websites.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 30, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
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LYING FOR THE CHURCH
The editing and formation of the Bible came from members of the early Christian Church. Since the fathers of the Church possessed the scriptoria and determined what would appear in the Bible, there occurred plenty of opportunity and motive to change, modify, or create texts that might bolster the position of the Church or the members of the Church themselves.
The orthodox Church also fought against competing Christian cults. Irenaeus, who determined the inclusion of the four (now canonical) gospels, wrote his infamous book, "Against the Heresies." According to Romer, "Irenaeus' great book not only became the yardstick of major heresies and their refutations, the starting-point of later inquisitions, but simply by saying what Christianity was not it also, in a curious inverted way, became a definition of the orthodox faith." [Romer] If a Jesus did exist, perhaps eyewitness writings got burnt along with them because of their heretical nature. We will never know.
In attempting to salvage the Bible the respected revisionist and scholar, Bruce Metzger has written extensively on the problems of the New Testament. In his book, "The Text of the New Testament-- Its Transmission, Corruption and Restoration, Metzger addresses: Errors arising from faulty eyesight; Errors arising from faulty hearing; Errors of the mind; Errors of judgment; Clearing up historical and geographical difficulties; and Alterations made because of doctrinal considerations. [Metzger]
The Church had such power over people, that to question the Church could result in death. Regardless of what the Church claimed, most people simply believed what their priests told them.
In letter LII To Nepotian, Jerome writes about his teacher, Gregory of Nazianzus when he asked him to explain a phrase in Luke, Nazianzus evaded his request by saying “I will tell you about it in church, and there, when all the people applaud me, you will be forced against your will to know what you do not know at all. For, if you alone remain silent, every one will put you down for a fool." Jerome responds with, "There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation."
In the 5th century, John Chrysostom in his "Treatise on the Priesthood, Book 1," wrote, "And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."
Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century wrote in his Spiritual Exercises: "To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it"
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
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haha--all educated people take time magazine's word for everything.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 30, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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I get frustrated by this thread because in my experience, this discussion should be in "French," so to speak, but it seems people are only comfortable or interested in speaking in "Dutch," believing that if the "truth" cannot be expressed in Hollandese, it cannot really be the truth (truth being exclusive to Holland, a material place).
What's more, the "truth," to be true, must fit into certain criteria which we "know," which is the mechanical causal consequence - somehow - of an evolved material brain, and that it all is hooked up with sense data/phenomenon or mental constructs and beliefs.
It was my fault and my character defect that I tried to use language and models that were not my own to try and force an understanding that what I was driving at all along had nothing do with knowing in the regular way, or in beliefs, or stuff, or God, or content, or phenomenon, or anything mental at all. And yet it HAD to be mental, it was said, otherwise, how did "I" ever come to know what the hell "it" was I was driving at? It must have been nothing all along. Or some state, but mental withal.
I probably would have gotten farther by posting pictographs from ancient cave walls. Or a line from Wallace Stevens:
"The palm at the end of the mind, rises in the bronze decor . . . "
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 30, 2010 - 06:26pm PT
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Dr. F,
Is that what you are gonna say on judgement day?
Good luck with that.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
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I'm good with pictographs. Give it a try.
As for Wallace Stevens.....
""The palm at the end of the mind, rises in the bronze decor . . . ""
????????????????
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
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i can't believe this--the shroud of turin and time magazine in the same breath. i believe in god now!
here's the deal, folks. did i mention this before? about 10 years ago, maybe 15, they decided to release a bit of the shroud for radiocarbon dating. they shied away from this for years. at last, i thought. i grew up in chicago, where father phelan's documentary on "the man of the shroud" was aired every good friday. talk about getting a young mind into believing.
time magazine plays an important role in this. they made a big deal out of the run-up to the testing and then they made a complete report of it. i used to subscribe to them back then. it was pretty cut and dried--placed the shroud somewhere in the late middle ages at a time when there were all sorts of seeing-is-believing relics being found all over europe. the shroud is the granddaddy of them all. i know i talked about this before because i also mentioned the virgin mary's garter, the great treasure of the downtown basilica in prato, close to florence.
well, the shroud remained a hoax for maybe a month or two, after which all kinds of experts came out of the woodwork, questioning the way the test was conducted, the very efficacy of C-14 (which i don't remember being questioned at all until this point in my lifetime), the possibility of contaminants, you name it. a short time later there was a fire in the cathedral of turin, and an italian fireman appeared on the front pages of the papers over there for having "saved the shroud". as they said for cicero: hero! hero!
but nowadays you'll find websites on both side of the shroud issue, experts, credentials, the works. my devout brother went to italy and saw it recently. ever the devil's advocate, i quoted jesus to him: "blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe."
largo, would it help if i posted in italian? french is really hard for me.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
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One of the guys where I worked was involved in the shroud examination. In personal conversation he first said it was real and later said it was not. I do remember a later claim that the C14 samples had been taken from a place where the shroud had been "repaired."
That had to have been thought-up "at a distance." From somewhere way up in the hierarchy.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 30, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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Jstan wrote:
As for Wallace Stevens.....
""The palm at the end of the mind, rises in the bronze decor . . . ""
????????????????
--
Now we're back in my wheelhouse, but I won't roast you if you don't understand. But 'thar she blows (below, with short critique that follows)
Of Mere Being
by Wallace Stevens
The palm at the end of the mind,
Beyond the last thought, rises
In the bronze decor,
A gold-feathered bird
Sings in the palm, without human meaning,
Without human feeling, a foreign song.
You know then that it is not the reason
That makes us happy or unhappy.
The bird sings. Its feathers shine.
The palm stands on the edge of space.
The wind moves slowly in the branches.
The bird's fire-fangled feathers dangle down.
-----
In its presentation of an afterworld, Stevens does not envision the Christian paradise towards which his mother grasps; he imagines instead a world much more typical to his own poetics—where being, thinking, imagining and, ultimately, nothingness mingle in a striking but impenetrable sheen. The poem, in its impenetrability, molds out of “mere being” a metallic surface, leaving nowhere for the critic to grasp; this surface reflects alternating, opposite visions, first one, then another, until, in their intermingling, the “being” they portray falls off into nothingness.
Boyce Bucholt
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
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Thanks for the reply John.
I was not read in Mr. Stevens. His poem is very good in that it permits one to follow, to a degee, the course of his imagining. Excellent even. BUT
an imagining.
The pictographs are even more exceptional. I don't know the provenance of the first. It could be modern, it could be from prehistory, but that is irrelevant. It evokes something that has to be part of being human. Some seek a god. Some seek to understand. Both are naught but that which results when one is in search of something. The second pictograph says we are bound together.
If we as a community could accept the meaning of these images, most of the world's problems would be solved.
I fear the last thing we shall understand
is ourselves.
I take it
this is what you been trying to say.
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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When I think about the challenge that was present when the climate in Africa began to change and woodlands to give way to grasslands, i can see that life itself became a search more desperate than ever before. Though designed for arboreal life we, to find food, had to come down and painfully traverse hostile ground. Each day it surely was never certain one could get back.
And so it remains unto this day.
The more powerful of the variants on our specie would have driven us from the remaining woodlands. Those of us with the creativity and intelligence to adapt would have survived.
As is always the case
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 30, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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id=162147]
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Everything is as it was three million years ago, but with a difference.
There is no place to go. The planet is only so big.
And we have nuclear weapons.
Immediately as a tribe decides it faces certain death
all options become open.
Options never before available.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jun 30, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Great shot JL!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 30, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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Whoa, this is all just getting way too deep.
Time for some irreverence.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 30, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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Fascinating about the shroud and the general cult of relics in Christianity. Why the need and veneration of proofs in a religion in which the primary, necessary requisite is faith. To what degree is faith compromised by proof? If you have absolute truth through proof then it is impossible to have faith....
Just imagine, God could come tomorrow and visit Fox news, perform some miracles of an absolutely undeniable nature (he's God after all) and we could all know immediately God is real.
Instead he chooses to remain a mystery to so many. The reality of God remains hidden in an ephemeral world of gnostic mumbo jumbo and personal experience that only the religiously gifted can experience, interpret and understand.
The complexity and mystery of God is such a fitting metaphor for the mystery of existence and nobody seems to see it.
Hundreds of deities worshiped in hundreds of cultures, each culture steadfast in the absolute sureness of their own belief and the veracity of their own Gods.
Behind the masks of all these Gods resides the simple, universal metaphor for a mystery that is both beautiful and sublime and intensely compelling.
But what a leap to call it God.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 30, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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Today in history:
Just to briefly change the subject, well this IS cosmological.
Jun 30 1908
A huge airburst explodes over Podkamennaya Tunguska, Siberia, at 7:30 am. The blast flattens thousands of square miles of trees, and is now believed to have been caused by an asteroid or comet impact.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 30, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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FAKES, FRAUDS, AND FICTIONS
Because the religious mind relies on belief and faith, the religious person can inherit a dependence on any information that supports a belief and that includes fraudulent stories, rumors, unreliable data, and fictions, without the need to check sources, or to investigate the reliability of the information. Although hundreds of fraudulent claims exist for the artifacts of Jesus, I will present only three examples which seem to have a life of their own and have spread through the religious community and especially on internet discussion groups.
The Shroud of Turin
Many faithful people believe the shroud represents the actual burial cloth of Jesus where they claim the image on the cloth represents an actual 'photographic' image left behind by the crucified body.
The first mention of the shroud comes from a treatise (written or dictated) by Geoffroi de Charny in 1356 and who claims to have owned the cloth (see The Book of Chivalry of Geoffroi De Charny). Later, in the 16th century, it suddenly appeared in a cathedral in Turin, Italy. (Note that thousands of claimed Jesus relics appeared in cathedrals throughout Europe, including the wood from the cross, chalices, blood of Jesus, etc. These artifacts proved popular and served as a prosperous commercial device which filled the money coffers of the churches.) [See The Family Jewels for some examples.]
Sadly, many people of faith believe that there actually exists scientific evidence to support their beliefs in the shroud's authenticity. Considering how the Shroud's apologists use the words, "science," "fact," and "authentic," without actual scientific justification, and even include pseudo-scientists (without mentioning the 'pseudo') to testify to their conclusions, it should not come to any surprise why a faithful person would not question their information or their motives. Television specials have also appeared that purport the authenticity of the shroud. Science, however, does not operate though television specials who have a commercial interest and have no qualms about deceiving the public.
Experts around the world consider the 14-foot-long linen sheet, which has remained in a cathedral in Turin since 1578, a forgery because of carbon-dating tests performed in 1988. Three different independent radiocarbon dating laboratories in Zurich, Oxford and the University of Arizona yielded a date range of 1260-1390 C.E. (consistent with the time period of Charny's claimed ownership). Joe Zias of Hebrew University of Jerusalem calls the shroud indisputably a fake. "Not only is it a forgery, but it's a bad forgery." The shroud actually depicts a man whose front measures 2 inches taller than his back and whose elongated hands and arms would indicate that he had the affliction of gigantism if he actually lived. (Also read Joe Nickell's, Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin: Latest Scientific Findings)
Walter C. McCrone, et al, (see Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin) discovered red ochre (a pigment found in earth and widely used in Italy during the Middle Ages) on the cloth which formed the body image and vermilion paint, made from mercuric sulphide, used to represent blood. The actual scientific findings reveal the shroud as a 14th century painting, not a two-thousand year-old cloth with Christ's image. Revealingly, no Biblical scholar or scientist (with any credibility), cites the shroud of Turin as evidence for a historical Jesus.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jun 30, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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Perhaps, if my friend Norton is feeling generous, I can convince him to collaborate with me on my important paper, Alexander the Great Never Existed, Darn It!
”No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts.”
And so, historians……just where are the artifacts with Alexander’s name on them? Surely the sword that sliced the Gordian Knot would be preserved…and kept inviolate by his partisans and admirers…if it and Alexander had actually existed!
… surely a brilliant tactician , as the legends claim Alexander to be, would have written a report of his remarkable victory on the banks of Granicus River…and SURELY be yet extant in archives after only twenty-three centuries of calm and quiescent history.
…and why can’t archeologists find Alexander’s real tomb? …surely the conqueror who ruled an empire stretching from the Danube to the Himalayas would have been accorded an arresting and conspicuous tomb inscribed with his name and exploits…(and perhaps containing his bones)?
… “Macedonian crickets”… (as Skip might say)
Surely I’m not the only one here who suspects Hellenistic fakery? Surely my friend Norton and others will support me in destroying this mythological garbage… of an ancient conqueror….that NEVER EXISTED!!
Coins, statues, paintings came well after the fact and so… were merely homage to the Alexander myth.
The mighty Alexander was merely … a testosterone drawn fancy!
”Amazingly, we have not one Jewish, Greek, or Roman writer, even those who lived in the Middle East, much less anywhere else on the earth, who ever mention him (Jesus) during his supposed life time. This appears quite extraordinary, and you will find few Christian apologists who dare mention this embarrassing fact.”
Now I’m SURE … you all…will help me debunk this Alexander the Great nonsense!
Where are the Persian documents revealing… Alexander overpowering and gaining dominion over the ancient known world?...after all, the myth claims he crushed the Persians. Wouldn’t they have something to say about him?
Where are the Vedic records detailing Alexander’s intrusion into the Indian subcontinent? Many Indian historians claim it never happened.
….conspiracy of silence?
And the claims that Alexander was a tutored by Aristotle…where are Aristotle’s writings about this? …he wrote about many diverse things… but Alexander, the destroyer and creator of empires...perhaps not that important…
The historicity of Alexander the Great and his military conquests is drawn from five ancient sources, Arrian, Quintus Curtius, Justin, Diodorus...NONE OF WHOM WERE EYEWITNESSES!! …and, who came three to eight centuries after Alexander…and yes, we have Plutarch’s biography Life of Alexander WRITTEN FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AFTER ALEXANDER’S DEATH !!
History professors!…you want majors to suffer through a semester of Hist 374-Age of Alexander named in honor of a nonexistent hero?
There is more CREDIBLE, tangible source material alluding to the existence of Jesus than the existence of Alexander…yet I’d bet most all college graduates consider Alexander the Great as … HISTORY…
How does that work ?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jun 30, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
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The difference between Jesus and Alexander is that Jesus is a historically trivial figure, whose actual life affected his world in small ways if indeed he existed at all. Had Jesus worship not emerged from a pack of competing religions in the fourth century, he would not today be remembered. Alexander, on the other hand, commanded tens of thousands of men, and conquered an Empire stretching from Corfu to Karachi. It is hardly surprising if his real historical legacy looms rather larger.
Incidentally, according to some sources he also claimed to be the son of God, or at least the son of a God. Whilst at Siwa, Egyptian priests are supposed to have told him he was the son of Amun. http://asktheatheists.com/questions/114-alexander-the-great-jesus-skepticism
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jun 30, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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hands from cave paintings: a double hand from australia, a paleolithic hand from france.
"What is the meaning of such hand prints left on the walls of sacred places throughout the world? They are testimonials to participation in a mystery."
from the historical atlas of world mythology, joseph campbell
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jstan
climber
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Jun 30, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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It at least appears that the Perseus Collection of Roman and Greek materials is an important starting point for research on the archival and classic greek periods. I am sure there are many others. With the advent of online access through subscription you can probably answer some of the questions you have posed. There is so much material it will probably take a lifetime. I expect it has taken hundreds of lifetimes already.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0053
Lisa M. Cerrato, Robert F. Chavez, Perseus Classics Collection: An Overview
("Agamemnon", "Hom. Od. 9.1", "denarius")
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Greek and Roman Materials
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section 1
The Perseus Classics collection began as an integrated collection of materials, textual and visual, on the Archaic and Classical Greek world. Named for the Hellenic hero who explored the world to its most distant reaches, Perseus made it possible for specialists and non-specialists alike to move between traditionally distinct types of information, such as images and texts, and across traditionally distinct disciplines, such as classical archaeology and philology. Building on the success of the tools and resources developed for Ancient Greek source materials, the project expanded into the Roman world, with additional art and archaeology materials as well as new collections of Latin texts and tools.
The collection contains extensive and diverse resources including primary and secondary texts, site plans, digital images, and maps. Art and archaeology catalogs document a wide range of objects: over 1,500 vases, over 1,800 sculptures and sculptural groups, over 1,200 coins, hundreds of buildings from nearly 100 sites and over 100 gems. Catalog entries are linked to tens of thousands of images, many in high resolution, and have been produced in collaboration with many museums, institutions and scholars. Catalog information and keywords have been taken from standard sources, which are cited in the entries for each object.
Numerous secondary sources supplement Perseus catalog entries. Prominent art and archaeology works include the Princeton Encyclopedia of Classical Sites, Attic vase paintings in the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, by L. D. Caskey and J. D. Beazley, selections from Attic Document Reliefs: Art and Politics in Ancient Athens, by Carol L. Lawton, One Hundred Greek Sculptors: Their Careers and Extant Works, by Andrew Stewart, and more. All art and archaeology materials are extensively linked to the Perseus atlas, which contains over 5,000 classical sites.
In addition to art and archaeology sources, essays, and tools, the classics collection features several hundred works of classical Greek and Roman authors, both in the original language and in translation. Moreover, Perseus has created a suite of powerful linguistic tools, all extensively linked to lexica, which permit the careful study of Greek and Latin. All word study tools are documented; please visit the help and information center for the latest information on the scope and functions of these tools. Text based secondary sources include Greek and Latin grammars, commentaries, and Thomas R. Martin's popular An Overview of Classical Greek History from Homer to Alexander, which acts both as an introduction to Greek History and an tool for accessing clasics resources in Perseus; it's a great place to begin exploring the classics collection.
Nearly all the classics materials are interlinked and accessible from any given resource. For example, a user reading Julius Caesar's Gallic War in English, may wish to check the particular Latin word Caesar employs to describe a military formation. Simply by switching the version of the text, users may see the original Latin (De Bello Gallico) and select a word of interest. This word is linked to the word study tool for Latin, which presents information on the form of the word, gives a brief definition, and provides links to other tools, such as the dictionary and word frequency chart. Or, a student may wish to plot all of the sites Caesar mentions on the Perseus atlas. A link on every text page makes this available. Additionally, users can access art and archaeology information such as numerous coins which depict Julius Caesar.
Perseus Classics Collection: An Overview. Lisa M. Cerrato, Robert F. Chavez.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.
An XML version of this text is available for download, with the additional restriction that you offer Perseus any modifications you make. Perseus provides credit for all accepted changes, storing new additions in a versioning system.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 30, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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My friend Jennie, whom I have never met or had a word with before right now.
Nothing you have said refutes any factual statement I made.
However, I can understand not personally liking what I presented, assuming
you do not like, or want, to read that which challenges your beliefs.
I suggest you simply ignore my postings.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 30, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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WHAT ABOUT WRITINGS DURING THE LIFE OF JESUS?
What appears most revealing of all, comes not from what people later wrote about Jesus but what people did not write about him. Consider that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him!
If, indeed, the Gospels portray a historical look at the life of Jesus, then the one feature that stands out prominently within the stories shows that people claimed to know Jesus far and wide, not only by a great multitude of followers but by the great priests, the Roman governor Pilate, and Herod who claims that he had heard "of the fame of Jesus" (Matt 14:1)". One need only read Matt: 4:25 where it claims that "there followed him [Jesus] great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judea, and from beyond Jordan." The gospels mention, countless times, the great multitude that followed Jesus and crowds of people who congregated to hear him. So crowded had some of these gatherings grown, that Luke 12:1 alleges that an "innumerable multitude of people... trode one upon another." Luke 5:15 says that there grew "a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear..." The persecution of Jesus in Jerusalem drew so much attention that all the chief priests and scribes, including the high priest Caiaphas, not only knew about him but helped in his alleged crucifixion. (see Matt 21:15-23, 26:3, Luke 19:47, 23:13). The multitude of people thought of Jesus, not only as a teacher and a miracle healer, but a prophet (see Matt:14:5).
So here we have the gospels portraying Jesus as famous far and wide, a prophet and healer, with great multitudes of people who knew about him, including the greatest Jewish high priests and the Roman authorities of the area, and not one person records his existence during his lifetime? If the poor, the rich, the rulers, the highest priests, and the scribes knew about Jesus, who would not have heard of him?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 30, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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Say that you had irrefutable evidence that Jesus never lived. Now say that the opposite is true, that Jesus is "God."
In both instances, what remains the same?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jun 30, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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Yep, GOD could come down and just show up and let everyone at once know he is real, and then game over. But many of you would continue to hate him.
He chose another way. Personally I think it is brilliant. It requires you to step out in faith and trust.
But he doesn't expect you to throw your head away. There is evidence to know if you truly seek out GOD. If you truly search for GOD you will find him. "Knock and the door will be opened to you."
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/1-21.htm
1 Corinthians 1:27
". . . but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, . . ."
1 Corinthians 2:14
"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."
GOD does it his way, and for good reasons we probably can not begin to fathom.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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paul roehl- "just imagine, God could come tomorrow...perform some miracles of an absolutely undeniable nature..."
But Paul, has He not already done this? Miracles upon miracles...
And the people of His day were every bit as intelligent as today, and they rejected Him. He went to the Jewish people first, as prophesied, as a sacrificial lamb.
Spend some time reading the prophecy's of the OT.
He will return, as the "Lion of Judah".
Look at "the signs of the times", He told us to "watch". The Jews returned to their homeland after century's of persecution. Iran(Persia)eventually signing a pack with Russia. Increase in earthquakes, famines, natural disasters and wars etc, etc.
You guys just want to "tickle each others ears"...Deny, deny, ignore, ignore!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Largo how old is that mask? Kind of looks like reincarnation? Gives me a splitting headache! Cool!
I used to be King Route-n-toot-n!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I don't think we can say for sure if the Shroud is or isn't authentic. As Rokjox mentions, the only way to really tell about the carbon dating is to use a piece of the cloth that has not been replaced or scorched in any of the three fires it has been subjected to.
Carbon testing is easily thrown off by even minute amounts of carbon. Some dates for recent human fossils (Carbon 14 testing is only good back to 40,000 years) have been found to be wildly off because their museum catalogue numbers were written on them with India ink which contains carbon. How much more so then the Shroud which has survived three fires?
Other interesting aspects of the Shroud include the fact that the cloth it's made from comes from the Middle East and has pollen on it from Israel, Lebanon, and Turkey. It was woven in a pattern similar to what was used 2,000 years ago. The nail marks are in the wrists as is necessary to support the weight of a man and not in the hands as Christian art has always portrayed.
Further, there is a tradition of a cloth with the face of Jesus imprinted in it which was kept in a Greek Orthodox Church in what is now the Turkish town of Edessa. It disappeared at the time of the Crusades when both knights and mobs of western European peasants stripped the Christian churches of the Middle East, especially those in Constantinople, because they got impatient for loot before reaching the Muslims. They took the booty back to western Europe, especially to Venice and other cities of northern Italy. The Shroud itself belonged to a French crusading nobleman before he gave it to the Catholic Church.
It is also quite possible that pigment from the Middle Ages was found on it from an attempt to enhance the original image. We simply don't know.What is obvious is that people have taken sides based on their own predispositions more than the scientific evidence. The other possibility is that we will never know because the Catholic Church will not allow a snip to be cut out of the center of it where the greatest chance of finding a non contaminated Carbon sample might be found.
Perhaps that is as it should be, just as some sacred mountains in the world should not be climbed. Awe and mystery are at the heart of all religions after all.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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This string is amazing! I see it started in 2006. Is there another string that has been active anywhere near the long? As an outsider of this thread I feel somewhat like someone observing a conversation amongst Ents. Ha. You know how long it takes them to say anything particularly when there is something worth saying. That could be a poor way of saying that I see here a long and deep conversation. Here is a community having in common a pursuit that is pointless in terms of necessities of human life and where the grim reaper is a constant companion with a glittering scythe. Where the hard facts of the physical universe are directed by sentience against the hard facts of the physical universe in a game where what is won cannot be bought or sold but can be understood and shared and its insubstantial value is often considered of supreme value unto death. This is a logical place for this long conversation to take place.
My question is: How many people believe they are themselves spiritual beings that survive beyond their bodies -- whether or not they believe in God?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sounds like a trick question for Buddhists.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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In my opinion, one of the hallmarks of a real civilization would be politely not needing to argue about religion, as each seeks their own path. So having stated that I'll play barbarian and leap back into this verbal mud wrestling pit with a short description of my own path seeking...
For one thing, how about reading the works of a very respected first century historian using his own name; rather than myths composed by mystery writers long after the time of Christ:
This big book of Josephus' collected writings is larger than the bible, with 880 pages of very small print detailing historical events of the first century CE. I inherited a copy of this book that has been in my family for many generations, along with an 1897 bible and another from 1653 among other such family artifacts.
My grandfather and first mentor was chief electrical engineer for establishing much of the Northwest Grid, a devote Christian, and 33rd degree Mason. My father was a power company executive and minister in the Idaho Episcopal Cathedral and a serious scholar of the history of Christianity and the encyclopedic Interpreter's Bible. I was raised as an acolyte, choir member, violin accompanist, and confirmed. I was awarded the Boy Scout religious equivalent of Eagle Scout: the God and Country Award. This was awarded not because I parroted Sunday school lessons or professed to be saved, but because of doing enough comparative religion homework to intelligently debate these subjects with scholars among the ministry.
I thought of myself as a young scientist studying astronomy, physics, chemistry, computers, and rocketry. Linda Moulton Howe was and is one of my close friends.
When I left home, my "church" and "lab" became the mountains, as a Teton and Yosemite climbing vagabond. I learned much in that holy lab, in particular becoming convinced many times that I could not have survived on a physical plane without strong influence from a spiritual plane.
This led me to look further for ways to understand this spiritual plane, and I got very involved with Scientology, learned some very interesting ideas, went to sea and worked in Ron Hubbard's personal office; until one of my friends was assigned by him to research his background in depth... having done that job too well, many of us left the organization.
Years later I married a devote Jewish woman who is Associate Director of DOE SLAC, and regularly attends Temple. We carried on the debate for years in good Jewish tradition with rabbinic scholars and leading physisists at SLAC.
Many of my close friends are professional scientists and atheists; which IMHO is also a form of religion. I have done technical consulting to NASA, EPA, DOE, DoD, DOI, DOJ, and was senior computer control systems reviewer for the DOE LLNL NIF for creating fusion events in a lab.
Within the broad scope of the events chronicled by Josephus of the first century era, Christianity plays a minuscule role, as one of many competing philosophies, sects and cults; often with mythological events that are very similar to Christian lore. Christianity only gained importance many years later when the Roman emperor seized upon it to save the empire by reinventing itself as a church. It is the power of the empire that forced these beliefs down the throats of so many people around the world in order to control them; until it became accepted by many people who were raised knowing no other beliefs. The fact that millions of people share these beliefs does not make them any less of a con.
Jesus may well have been a visionary philosopher, but he certainly didn't propose founding a dogmatic and domineering church. Jesus was also certainly the son of god... just as is every living creature. In order for a lie to persist, it must contain elements of truth.
My own beliefs are probably closest to the Lipan Apache, which I have learned about through taking many classes from Tom Brown Jr.
In my opinion anyone is 'saved' who can shed the verbal noise of society and reestablish their connection with what the Lipan call: 'The-Spirit-that-Moves-In-All-Things' (anthropomorphically known as 'God').
Whatever we think about it or say about it; we all share it... and we all have very much to learn...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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In my opinion anyone is 'saved' who can shed the verbal noise of society and reestablish their connection with what the Lipan call: 'The-Spirit-that-Moves-In-All-Things' (anthropomorphically known as 'God').
Nice post, Tom. I have always heard about that book and haven't read a word of it. Must take a look some time.
I wonder if "The-Spirit-that-Moves-In-All-Things" is not the so-called "Holy Ghost" element of the trinity and the active and manifest part of the Law of Three that Sufis talk about.
Incidentally, the whole trinity thing derives, IME, from a profound seeing into and directly experiencing the basic nature of how spirit becomes "real."
First there is the "unborn" and undifferentiated All or the source of every form, which itself, paradoxically, has no form and is not thing. For this ALL to become manifest, it must BE something IN the universe, an animating and sacred being-force in all animate forms which illuminates consciousness.
Lastly, for the Trinity to have any effect in the human community the All, by way of the Holy Ghost, must take human form, so to speak, or have a human foci or center through which to flow. This will always be mater of degrees and never a "perfect" or fully realized expression of "God." We can be our own "foci" here and that is the point, ultimately, but we generally get there or make some progress in that direction by studying with or being around avatars or saints or people or some realization so we get some first-hand experience of what the whole shebang is in packaged form. Especially realized examples of this might be Jesus or Buddha and so forth.
That's an approximation of my experience anyway.
JL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Trip7says:
"paul roehl- "just imagine, God could come tomorrow...perform some miracles of an absolutely undeniable nature..."
But Paul, has He not already done this? Miracles upon miracles...
And the people of His day were every bit as intelligent as today, and they rejected Him. He went to the Jewish people first, as prophesied, as a sacrificial lamb."
--------------------------------------------
NO, Trip. You are flat WRONG on both statements.
1) There are NO "absolutely undeniable miracles".
Because there is no such thing as miracles.
There is only delusional hearsay.
2) News flash: the people of some 2000 years ago were NOT "every bit as
intelligent as today"
They died at age 40 because they knew nothing of medicine, and believed the earth was FLAT, and only a small handful were even learning to read.
They were not "stupid", they were evolutionarily capable of "learning"
But, they were indeed, IGNORANT people, ESPECIALLY compared to today's people.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton, the point I was making is that if Jesus had chosen this time frame/generation to appear on earth(instead of 33AD)people would reject Him just as fast, if not faster. They would follow Him around, hoping to be healed or entertained, but would not desire to have Him be the Lord of their lives..."absolutely undeniable miracles" or not!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i'll tell you guys one thing. god understands dna. he wouldn't have left any behind for us to be cloning away with down here.
here's the short-cut answer to all this shroud crap. run another sample through the C-14 lab. take it from a place that wasn't "mended".
can you really imagine that being done in the first place with such a precious relic being sent to withstand the harsh glare of science?
"mistakes were made"--sound familiar, rox?
it took years for the catholic church to give up that sample, and the only reason they did it was because of the demands to put this to the test. the catholic church can get a pretty constipated. look how long it took pope poobah to decide an abusive priest should be removed from oakland. it'll be a long time before the next sample, and they'll need it in order to think up the next excuse.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Tony,
All I can say is you better watch the DVD or program from the History Channel. They cover all of this extensively. We know so much more now. It is all empirically testable. The science is very good.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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no, klim, you tell me why they can't test another sample. i'll bet you don't understand it, you're just taking "experts" at their word. sound familiar?
and what did they have to say about the pigment norton brought up? now it's all "precious herbs" instead of paint, i'll bet.
think 9/11, klim. same modus operandi.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Largo-
Your experience and mine are similar. In addition to the Christians and the Sufis, I note that the Hindus, Buddhists, and Taoists also have notions of the trinity. I think that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, Dharmakaya, Sambogokaya, and Nirmanakaya, and Tao, Ying and Yang are all terms for it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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klimmer, believe it or not, i have a couple other things going in my life besides blogging on ST, but these blogs are important to me and i'm glad to be part of it.
i don't mind links and i don't mind long posts, really. you can choose to read them or you can just scroll over them, but you have to keep with the thread if you want to discuss. the thread gets lost in long posts and the hours you'd have to spend looking at every link.
read everything i've read, see every program i've seen, so you'll think exactly the way i think?
learn to study, digest, and think for yourself. when you really digest it, you'll be able to put it in your own words.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Good news, peeps! Hypercrates gets hits now at Google. So it's got public recognition. Hallelujah! Remember, you all, we saw it here first.
Hypercrates- (1a) personification of higher powers that control our lives; (1b) personification of the power or spirit that moves through all things; (1c) personification of fate or destiny; cf: Grim Reaper (personification of death)
A few more days, I suspect, you'll be able to google "hypercratic power" or "hypercratic powers" and get a hit. Change is afoot. Thanks, HFCS.
P.S. For those of you interested in linguistics and etymology, hypercratic and Hypercrates derives as follows: {{<Gr hyper-, above, over + kratein, to rule}}
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jstan
climber
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I am surely not the best person to pontificate on the difference between intelligence and knowledge. For my own part I am ever amazed at the highly advanced logical thought and creativity of the Greeks who lived many centuries before christ. Arguably it was the adoption of agriculture that enabled the Greeks to use native intelligence that had to have already been in existence long before.
Our intelligence, however, is not really the central point. The central question has to do with whether we are making the best possible use of the capabilities we have. And are we able to accept the reality of our interdependence and to use it to build the future.
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WBraun
climber
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More dumb sh'it written by you.
Pack it up and leave now ....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Norton
2) News flash: the people of some 2000 years ago were NOT "every bit as
intelligent as today"
They died at age 40 because they knew nothing of medicine, and believed the earth was FLAT, and only a small handful were even learning to read.
That's some of smartest material I have EVER read on this thread. As basic as it gets, too, yet some people still have a problem with it. Astonishing.
Goes to show, superstitie woo-woo corrupts basic reasoning ability.
P.S. We're not quibbling over the definition of intelligent, either, it's other definition means smart.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It's no secret that the devout of many religions, especially Roman Catholics, are obsessed with relics. There was a huge market in the European middle ages, fabricating and selling 'relics' of the saints to the gullible. Nothing new at all about it. Fraud for the credulous and superstitious.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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jstan wrote-
I am surely not the best person to pontificate on the difference between intelligence and knowledge.
I didn't read this post before posting mine. Looks like jstan picked up on the use of "intelligent" too.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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It's no secret that the devout of many religions, especially Roman Catholics, are obsessed with relics. There was a huge market in the European middle ages, fabricating and selling 'relics' of the saints to the gullible. Nothing new at all about it. Fraud for the credulous.
It is well accepted that Mexico's famous Virgin of Guadalupe is a verbatim knock-off of the original in Spain. The spiritual hegemonist friar in Mexico knew how well it sold in Spain and said "Hey, it'll really fly with these icon worshipers here!" He didn't even change the name. I've never met a poor uneducated Mexican who has ever heard of the original. When I tell them I've been to the shrine in Spain I get the most incredulous looks.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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JSTAN: I am surely not the best person to pontificate on the difference between intelligence and knowledge.
-
I think we can describe "intelligence" many ways. Inherent intelligence is deep material. A staunch materialist will believe inherent intelligence issues from genetic coding, and that generic "smarts" is simply what the evolved brain does once it has been fashioned by the constructs of language and ideas. An IQ test will show a particular person's ability to evaluate and remember facts and figures and symbols, but it won't tell a thing about emotional or spiritual or athletic intelligence, to mention a few, and as anyone in the recovery movement knows, AA meetings are full of brilliant people.
Knowledge, at least as the word is commonly used, can mean that someone is "knowledgeable" about a subject, meaning the person is steeped in more than just the cursory details and various "maps" or a subject and has some feel for the thing itself - like a person who has climbed El Cap has "knowledge" of the Big Stone.
Knowledge usually insinuates the next step up the ladder - the rungs getting increasingly slippery now - and that is knowledge. The relationship between "intelligence," that is our ability to evaluate facts and figures and symbols, and "wisdom," is very often confused and overstated. For instance, High Fructose believes in his heart of hearts that the more correct information we have the wiser we will be - but we have the shocking lack of self-knowledge Jstan points out, people doubting global warming, believing OJ Simpson was innocent, sending us off to needless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and on and on.
So no, technology does not automatically lead to wisdom.
JL
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jstan
climber
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If indeed the shroud has someone's blood on it we might be able to perform DNA analysis. and perhaps one day clone that individual. I can surely assume the care takers of that object would happily make it available. Can't I?
(Well, when anyone claims there is blood, we again ask for a chance to clone the individual. Like most disputes it will keep going around endlessly. ST is the only place where this does not happen.)
Edit:
I would, here, try to add something to John's piece.
It can be a very gray area between intelligence and knowledge when you look at it more closely. An offshoot of the nature nurture dilemma.
Genetics programs the cells that determine organization of the brain, which has a major impact on the intelligence and behavior of those people who use the brain for making decisions. It does not materially affect those who use a different organ for making decisions. That said,
the actual wiring of the brain and the neuronal reinforcement is also a product of experience during childhood. So, to a significant degree, the capabilities of any given brain in an adult is a product of both genetics and experience.
A friend who grew up in Shanghai strengthened my opinion on this. He said the upper classes in China consider using one's hands to be demeaning and will not allow their sons to use their hands. When these children reach adulthood they remain quite unable to use their hands, lifelong.
Bottom line? Make sure you have all the needed information if you plan to hire a chinese person to do a job requiring manual dexterity. I was assisted by lower class persons of this sort who saved my rear end time after time.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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this baby's hard to keep up with. pardon me as i pick and choose.
got my attention with that one, reilly. it fooled willa cather too, who recounts the miracle in death comes to the archbishop. i wonder if they could be persuaded to give up a few threads for analysis of the heavenly pigments on this one.
interesting curriculum vita, tom cochrane. i'm sorta navajo, the way you're sorta apache.
there goes fructose again. what a hypercrite!
werner: neener!
norton: neener neener!
werner: neener neener neener ...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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The fact that I am an effect of nature blew my mind. A long time ago. Still does.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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You're all so young, such pups, you probably don't have any memory of how evolution was hardly ever mentioned in the 1980s (and to a lesser extent in the 1990s) on the three network news. For fear of offending umpteen-million-strong demographics across the nation. But today, thank Hypercrates, it's like a different world. "Evolution-this, evolution-that" across the three networks as as matter of fact, as though it's ALWAYS been that way. Amazing!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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I don't think "religion" can ever become disembedded from supernaturalist belief or disembedded from God or theology- so I don't use the word to describe my "practice" in the practice of living.
Although religious people will call it a "religion". But who cares, let them.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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We now have at long last a fairly complete and satisfying naturalistic understanding for (a) how the world works, (b) how life works, (c) how mind-reading intelligent humans came up with their ideas of God or Gods and came to use these for therapeutic and social purposes.
So now what?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Fruitcake- "So now what?"
Judgment Day!
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, then the Judgment." Hebrews 9:27
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Better the consolations of philosophy, than the constipations of religion.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Better the consolations of philosophy, than the constipations of religion.
You actually think that is clever, don't you? It amazes me, the level of arrogance you people have. Ever hear of humility? Where did that come from? The concept?
But you know everything....for a fact....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, religions can be consoling, and philosophies constipated, also. Although it seems less likely, to me, even given that sometimes it's not clear which is which.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Magical thinking invests special powers and forces in many things that are seen as symbols. According to Stevens, "the vast majority of the world's peoples ... believe that there are real connections between the symbol and its referent, and that some real and potentially measurable power flows between them."
-----
You're still missing it, Dr. F. How many times have I said that the map is not the territory, or as stated above, "...believe that there are real connections between the symbol (MAP) and its referent (TERRITORY). What's more, the "many things" above is where Stevens stops - he cannot go past this point, or for that matter, doesn't believe there is a point beyond.
You can lead a horse to water and all that . . .
JL
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jstan
climber
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Dean you have gone and posted something very like my Go-B post of a day or so ago but which i deleted on re-reading because I didn't think it would be helpful or productive.
I think your post will be helpful.
What we say or believe is not important. It is what we live to that counts.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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John 3:29, Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.”
I am grateful to God that He allowed me to share my love for Him! If I rub some the wrong way, well that's a personal problem, I didn't mean no harm!
But I wanted to pass on what edifies me, and would continue to do more of the same! I think I've been too long at the party?
God Bless,
go-b
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Cragman wrote-
"Then there is, in my humble opinion, the worst poster on this thread: Go-B."
Go-B, you're as welcome on this thread as Cragman, indeed as anybody.
Cragman is a passive aggressive. It's as if... M,W,F he posts humbly as above, then T,Th,S aggressively. It's a basic strategy. Beware of passive aggressives. In and out of Christendom.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cragman-
I agree with the sentiments expressed in your post and I too have been appalled at the Christian bashing on this thread. I understand that a Christian would be offended. I also agree that most of the Christians here have not made a convincing case and that throwing scripture at people as a generic cure-all is not effective.
For me, the greatest frustration has been seeing the truly interesting and worthwhile comments that have been made suddenly followed by the usual insults and name calling. We seem to be able to go from the sublime heights of philosophy to the toilet (and sometimes back) with lightning speed.
That said, I have learned a lot from this thread and the evolution vs creation thread before it. Some of this is sociological (I've had a crash course in the culture wars I've missed while living overseas) and some of it is philosophical.
Most of all, I have enjoyed being challenged by a lot of super smart people whose scientific world view is so different from my own. I have been immersed in teaching humanities in recent years so it has been very refreshing to encounter the world of physical science and mathematics again. Also please note that it is not the professional scientists who are throwing the insults.
Perhaps the solution is for both scientists and religious people to start threads that are so subject specific only people who agree with them will contribute? If that happens however, people like me who are not committed to either a specific science discipline or religion will probably be left behind.
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jstan
climber
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Jan:
At too many points to enumerate you have made critically important contributions. Leaving you out is not an option.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Cragman wrote-
"The more posts of yours I read, the more I understand why some animals eat their young."
Search my posts. Where and what have I posted that compares to this-
Cragman wrote-
"Do us all a favor, hook your jumper cables up to your car battery, the other end clipped to your tongue, and have someone turn the key."
Cragman wrote-
"I despise the evil that lives in your heart." That's juxtaposition for you.
And that last one, for what, for subscribing to an alternative model for how the world works? Gotta be, as that is what I stand for, based on personal decision-making, and that is what I've expressed and defended.
Jan- You've entered the fray, you're involved. So are any of Cragman's remarks "appalling."
I challenge anyone to find comparable remarks as these (by Cragman) posted by me.
Beward of passive aggressives. I'm not just picking on Cragman either. He AIN'T the only Christian with the "passive aggressive" character.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps the solution is for both scientists and religious people to start threads that are so subject specific only people who agree with them will contribute? That would be no fun at all! What would we argue about? Plus there would be no dialectic - we might never find Answers to Questions. (OK, I admit we probably won't anyway.)
As for Go-B/Gobee, I don't mind him. I just don't read anything he posts, and haven't for some time.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan-
Thanks! That means a lot coming from you.
I guess this means I have to soldier on.
Not the first time I've been ready to quit this thread and then something great appeared on it and I was sucked back in!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
Be careful what you ask for!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Please. Be my guest. Find something comparable. I welcome it. Would you say calling Klimmer out as a liar is comparable? How about telling Klimmer to shut the %$#@ up? (In response to an outright lie.) These were my roughest posts to date, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. Do these compare to "I despise the evil that lives in your heart." Give me a break. (But maybe they do "compare" in the minds of the religious or religious sympaths.)
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WBraun
climber
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Hey fruitcake you sure are an insecure piss ant at times.
But!!!!
I'm interested in your literally 1,000s of hours- hands-on experience- building power supplies across a range of voltages.
I like that .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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The goal is not necessarily to be happy and content. The goal might be life satisfaction. The goal might be growth other than economic growth. The goal might be growth in the "practice" of living. That might only come about in the long term through struggles such as we see on this thread. Struggle in the wake of a decrepit Abrahamic narrative that millions are discovering in light of the info age is in crisis.
The quest might not be answers to the unknowable; the quest might simply be (for some of us) moving beyond the bronze age misconceptions maintained by the Abrahamic narrative that millions around the world still embrace and put to action.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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WBraun- What is it you want to know about electronics or power supplies or electronic circuits. I'll talk technically. I still enjoy it. Have at it.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Proverbs 12:15, The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
but a wise man listens to advice.
Cragman is a brother and doesn't like to hear God being slandered and more so if it's because of what a Christian say's.
Sometimes I feel like a 800 pound gorilla!
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WBraun
climber
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No questions at the moment now, but if I have a question/problem I'll hit you up.
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jstan
climber
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Long and I have had a minor/huge dispute going on for weeks. Neither of us is able to get anything from the other's writing, specifically on spirituality. (John is an excellent writer by the by.) Then John posted his reaching hands pictograph and I got the message immediately( I think), Humans are always longing for something. I, of course, came up right away with an anthropic/historical scenario which could have hard wired us this way 3 million years ago. Based upon the way I know I would have felt had it been me who had had to come down out of the trees. But get this. I formulated a hypothesis not a belief/truth.
I am not ready to discuss spirituality. I am not going to use words that lack a definition. But is it possible that there is some aspect of our wiring that we really don't understand? Assuredly. Many aspects. Maybe even all aspects. If I were a lot younger I would seriously consider studying medicine and then segue into evolutionary psychology.
I suspect we have a boat load of surprises ahead of us.
I at least hope so.
We are not doing very well you know.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Cragman- I'm not a "hater." Reframe it. I'm simply a decision-maker who (long ago actually) decided against the ancient theology of Moses (or Abraham). It starts there.
I'm actually quite fond of you in some respects. Based on quite of few of your non-religious posts. But calling someone a "hater" is not endearing.
Remember this picture:
It came from a link in one of your posts.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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I grew up in the small community of Boise Idaho with many good and righteous people who took Christianity for granted as their religion and philosophy, as did I. However I am a voracious reader, and the more I learned, the more disturbed I became about the perversions of Christ's teachings and intentions.
I now realize that some of the most evil forces on the planet have been acting in the name of Christ. I think many good Christians are simply unaware or don't want to know of the horrible evils being perpetuated upon the peoples of the world by men professing to perform their barbaric actions in the name of Jesus.
One of the most frightening events in my adventurous life occurred recently when one of my good friends at NASA Glenn in Cleveland invited me to an evening 'church service' in Toledo. His son had become involved in this congregation through his new girl friend. (His son and daughters are also my friends.)
My old and wise friend, one of the world's leading experts on turbine machinery, and a devote, kind, and ethical Christian; was very disturbed about it and wanted my opinion and guidance. We were shown to our seats by his son who was acting as an usher. The service started with the usual choral performances and introductory prayers. We sat in this 'church service' while my friend took extensive notes; and I sat there with increasing horror as the 'visiting preacher' pranced back and forth on the stage before the choir, screaming out his 'sermon' at the top of his lungs. It took him over three hours of screaming to get through one short passage of the bible; with the congregation of several thousand people jumping up and down and yelling in concert with him. I was absolutely amazed that any human could scream so loudly for so long without completely destroying his vocal cords.
As the evening progressed, I gradually realized that the basic point of this guy's sermon was that all good Christians have a duty to destroy all Muslims. I walked away with the feeling that being a good Christian was about like being a good Nazi.
Quoting obsessively from the bible is not in itself a good indicator of good character or righteous action or leading an ethical life. It is not an excuse to follow orders on faith and pretend not knowing what is being done in your name. That didn't work at the Nuremberg Trials and it doesn't work now.
Wake up! I hope you can understand a bit more about my attitude towards proselytizing Christians.
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WBraun
climber
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Cragman
I don't believe for moment that Fructose is a hater.
It's not in him.
He's just not in agreement with what he knows about God consciousness as with what you know/have experienced.
This is normal and has to be accepted and is actually the correct platform.
It's better to be a atheist than to preach a bunch of nonsense in the name of religion and mislead oneself and others.
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WBraun
climber
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Cragman
Maybe, maybe not.
So what, .... Hiranyakashipu was that way and still achieved liberation by hating the lord. He wanted to kill him and was very envious of his son Prahlada.
This shows the Supremacy of God and his all attractiveness that even a hater by single minded focus on trying to kill God can be liberated.
Anyone who single mindfully fixes his mind on God can achieve that although Hiranyakashipu's method is not the preferred way which is Love.
In the electrical thread he tried to prove that one can't die from his experiment. I agree 99.99%.
But you never want to put a current path from a car battery across your heart while lowering your contact resistance points at the same time.
There's always the unknown that "could happen" and those points where discussed.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Jan, what's tricky about the question?
My question is: How many people believe they are themselves spiritual beings that survive beyond their bodies -- whether or not they believe in God?
How about you?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Does anyone believe in god,
who does not feel a need, for god?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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you were pretty rough with jan, fructo, when she first showed up here. i suspect she's remembering that.
one of the nice things about the supertopo program is that you can edit your own posts or delete them entirely. have you been up to that?
but fruct, that's a pretty good one about the jumper cables. that would turn poor crags here into a first class hypocrite. (haha--almost said hypercrite again.) i think your clinical analysis is pretty good too, assuming you can document it. beware of those software options, however.
listen, peeps. ever been around baby coyotes? they do nothing all day long except bite each other and HARD. cutest things you can imagine.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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an alarming story, tom cochrane.
i've said it here before, i'm a believe-and-let-believe type, but stories like that are one big wake-up call, and i won't get into certain aspects of muslim-bashing here. christianity poses as a religion of love most of the time, but you will find many militant aspects of jesus's life and words. bible quoting affords great opportunity for people to justify just about anything at any time. we need a better compass than that.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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religion is the fruit of a perpetuating psychological illness that is handed down and across generations.
the hyper-focus, committment and devotion as displayed by the likes of gobi well illustrate how mentally and physically binding the illness can be.
people like the pastor walking back and forth screaming murder to the muslims is hardly an extreme case of this.
those who are weakened by confusion, fear, intollerance, and IGNORANCE migrate to the "warm blanket" of religion.
the religious zealots whom i've rubbed shoulders with always appear to have lost some color. some gleam. the innate fear within them begins to seep upon their skin, presenting a in pasty squalor.
nothing good becomes of religion. wars. hypocracy. bigotry. unsubstantiated judgement of others, hatred, ...
my sister who is WAY lost down that path told me to stop listening to led zepplin, and stop hanging out with my friend whom enjoyed marijuana, and not to masterbate, and to give my chump change to some masked business while i was too poor for proper shelter.
religion is the ultimate celebration of man's folly.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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good question, cragman, and we've brought it up before, but fructose kinda disappears for awhile when that happens.
as i recall, one guy speculated he's the same poster as someone who went by "just passing through".
you can recognize personalities in any kind of literature and begin to identify writers by their attitude, habits of diction and vocabulary. by the way, if you ever start going over that bible of yours with this in mind, you'll find it's pretty messy. you have to learn several dead languages to do that, but it's been done, and done rather well.
my big query to huffcuss, as i affectionately refer to him sometimes, is this business about the full silos of iowa. he's pretty stubborn about not answering that.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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dropping by because I didn't want to search for the last "evolution" thread... but here is an interesting article in today's NYTimes about climbing relevant evolution:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/science/02tibet.html
one wonders, however, that if such "mechanistic" adaptations are driven by the merely physical arrangements of molecules in genetic material, why this isn't a more general explanation of life, and all of its expressions.
That is not to say other ways of looking at things are false... but rather another possible explanation requiring only what there is, rather than what there might be. It's very tempting to push everything that is unknown over the boarder of the "unknowable," but time and again we increase the boarder farther into the "terra incognita" thus our "map" is something that expands. That map is not a bad way to organize our thoughts, and could also be a metaphor for more general knowledge.
I wonder, however, what use the "unknowable" has, if it solves all of the conundrums which we confront, but by construction, cannot provide any guide. We are left to be our own delphi, to navigate those uncharted waters with no aid from the vastness of the unknowable. In the end, we are happy for what charts we have, though they know nothing of our journey, they often provide the knowledge that allows us plot a safe course to the haven of a sheltered harbor.
Certainly one can set out on a course for which no map exists, but at the end of such a voyage, there is a new map, and new territory, and that sets the stage for more exploration, and more mapping... as imperfect as it is in explanation, somehow the map starts to tell more and more. Obviously, the map, when you look at it as a process, is more than the territory...
...both in what it represents and in what is not represented. But we see the representation expand, we have no way of knowing if what is not represented is decreasing... I would say of that, "so what."
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed wrote: "I wonder, however, what use the "unknowable" has, if it solves all of the conundrums which we confront, but by construction, cannot provide any guide. We are left to be our own delphi, to navigate those uncharted waters with no aid from the vastness of the unknowable."
That hasn't been my experience - at least the part about not receiving nay "aid" or "guidance" from the unknowable. In the sense that I have been rather clumsily using it, the "unknowable" is not unknown, but rather unquantifiable, so our regular process of yanking facts and figures from the subject is impossible, ergo we cannot "know" said subject in the regular way.
So without facts and figures to construct a map, how do you negotiate the world with divine input? How do you climb the wall with no topo. You have to just on-sight things and "give it over" to that which no man can ever really describe. I've seen black out drunks totally transformed by this process, and none of them "know" how it works. It's generally considered a waste of time to wrangle "how" it all works because of the ungraspable nature of the subject.
Problem here is obvious: People can go out and do all kinds of jackass things believing they are divinely influenced. That's why there is usually a fellowship and some kind of spiritual advisor as well as a code of behavior involved with this slippery process since, as Dr. F has pointed out, no one transcends their humanness. That is why we so often end up with drunk, philandering gurus and priests molesting altar boys if left entirely to their own devices.
JL
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jstan
climber
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DR
"What you miss in your summation of me is that I believe that people are allowed the priviledge of believing anything they want to believe.
However, that being said, I will DEFEND myself and my beliefs as a Christian, and the God that I love and know as a friend, to my dying breath, against those I consider haters."
May I comment.
1. Haters. Dean you have taken a common word and have used your own special meaning for it thereby causing unintended disruption to another. That is not a kind act. It is not defendable.
2. Believing as you wish. This is a democracy and it is the duty of every citizen to bring all their personal powers and independent analysis to it. We have public education so citizens can bring to discussions logic, knowledge of history, and appreciation of how our nation works. Under the banner of radical christianity we have groups attempting to replace personal responsibility with obedience to a divine belief.
In the US people used to hold their beliefs without allowing them to interfere with their responsibility as citizens. That is what has changed.
3, Defending christianity. History is strewn with instances where christianity has attempted to interfere with governance. Christians who wish to defend christianity need to stand up and defend separation of church and state. One example. Tax exempt religious groups should lose their tax status, as the law requires, when the group partakes in an organized fashion in questions of public policy and law.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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That hasn't been my experience - at least the part about not receiving nay "aid" or "guidance" from the unknowable. In the sense that I have been rather clumsily using it, the "unknowable" is not unknown, but rather unquantifiable, so our regular process of yanking facts and figures from the subject is impossible, ergo we cannot "know" said subject in the regular way.
So we aren't so far apart, actually, as confronting what ever it is... usually something not known to us, we try to use the training that we have acquired throughout our lives to make some progress.
It is not unusual that, owning a hammer, one approaches a task as if it were an undriven nail. Confronting the unknown, we bring our own hammers out ready to drive it home. Sometimes it works, and sometimes you realize you need to invent a screw driver...
How that all works is perhaps important to some people, but probably not to most...
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jstan
climber
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GoB:
"Sometimes I feel like a 800 pound gorilla!"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Q: Where does an 800 lb. gorilla sit?
A: Anywhere it wants!
Have a seat Brother Gobee...welcome back to the JUNGLE!
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jstan
climber
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There we have it folks!
GoB and 777 are resonating together and ringing like a bell.
800# gorilla.
It is all now very clear.
Devout christianity can be just a power trip.
On a power trip it is OK to tell others what they can and cannot do.
Even desirable. That's the kick.
We now understand Prop 8.
I never would have guessed it would be this simple.
During the inquisition the devout and self righteous murderers were grooving on the power.
Wild animals, with very few exceptions do not kill without reason.
We do and some of us at least seem to need a god.
So we have the answer as to whether animals have a god.
No. They do not.
They are more highly developed than are we and have entirely gone past the need for a god.
Now let's go the next step and see how we humans are to become more advanced.
Simple:
We need to study and to understand wild animals better.
It is they who will lead us into a better future.
Our "saviors" are already among us.
They were here even before we came.
So that the exchange is not somehow lost I have copied it out and pasted it here.
go-B
climber
In God We Trust
go-B
Jul 1, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
Proverbs 12:15, The way of a fool is right in his own eyes,
but a wise man listens to advice.
Cragman is a brother and doesn't like to hear God being slandered and more so if it's because of what a Christian say's.
Sometimes I feel like a 800 pound gorilla!
jstan
climber
Jul 2, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
GoB:
"Sometimes I feel like a 800 pound gorilla!"
TripL7
Trad climber
san diegoJul 2, 2010 - 06:01pm PT
Q: Where does an 800 lb. gorilla sit?
A: Anywhere it wants!
Have a seat Brother Gobee...welcome back to the JUNGLE!
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WBraun
climber
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It's nothing and there's no plan they say now.
I'll just drive aimlessly forever nowhere .....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"Ed wrote: "I wonder, however, what use the "unknowable" has, if it solves all of the conundrums which we confront, but by construction, cannot provide any guide. We are left to be our own delphi, to navigate those uncharted waters with no aid from the vastness of the unknowable."
Unknowable is far more common and vast than the known, at least within us. Our minds know our thoughts and concepts and basic sensations in our body, but the unknowable inner consciousness know how to duplicate replacement cells, fight disease, and build proteins. Our blood pumps, our stomach digests and we "know" hot to do it with any conceptual or conscious basis for this. Still, it's less automatic than we might imagine and even our moods and attitudes affect those things.
Like ultraviolet and infrared occupy different vibrations on the spectrum beyond human sight, there is unknown consciousness that is nonetheless present in us (and around us)
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"During the inquisition...murderers were grooving on the power..."
You seem to have failed to realize that it was Christians who were the ones being tortured and killed for heresy by the Roman Catholic Church.
"It's all now very clear, devout Christianity can be just a power trip."
How did you suddenly come to this conclusion...with my simple joke about "800 lb G sitting anywhere they want"?
I, for the most part, post to answer questions by non-believers. Like rrrADAM, who persisted with vague, ambiguous, rhetorical questions, which he uses to demean and humiliate the believer. I have also simply shared my experiences, beliefs and profound relationship with Jesus Christ, and ocassionaly quote Scripture to to validate it.
You constantly fall back on the world religions which have, in part, used the name of Christ to their own wicked ends.
I speak of a relationship, not a religion. There is nothing to join, or qualifications to be met...He will take you just as you are.
jstan, you, and others have made some very excellent observations in regards to "religion", and I agree with much...
But, I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, and He is the only one who can justify His words
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jstan
climber
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I have not heard any christians speaking out vehemently condeming those christians who are defiling christ.
None.
Silence.
Must be awesome to feel you have a personal relationship with someone who created the entire universe in a week. I can't imagine how that would make one feel.
To have a big brother that powerful?
You say I have not been entirely wrong, at times.
Do one thing then. Look at yourself.
Really closely.
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WBraun
climber
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So we have the answer as to whether animals have a god.
No. They do not.
They are more highly developed than are we and have entirely gone past the need for a god.
This just plain pure mental speculation and has no foundation to stand on and what's even worse is ...
You know it too ....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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32
I think I could turn and live with animals, they're so placid and self contain'd,
I stand and look at them long and long.
They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins,
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God,
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things,
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago,
Not one is respectable or unhappy over the earth.
Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass |
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jstan
climber
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With the exception of JE who sometimes understates his point, I think none of us is immune from Werner's accusation(too strong) assertion.
I swear I had not read that passage from Whitman.
Please note I carefully said christianity can be a power trip.
But look at what I said. Look at the way those two individuals quickly reacted.
Make you nervous?
Long's picture with reaching hands tells us we are somehow different.
Perhaps we are indeed, different, also in the way I suggested.
I think
we need to think.
Hard.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Our two frogs fight each other when it's feeding time!
The dog next door bit my daughter!
I'll stick with doG spelt backwords!
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jstan
climber
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I'm getting somewhere.
This time a defense.
Not scripture.
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WBraun
climber
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jstan you make statements
You get a reply and speculate it's a power trip
You're starting spin things around in your mind.
How do I know you are doing this?
You're asking for help in deciphering your thoughts from others.
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jstan
climber
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I expect, shortly, to see a post with the hypothesis that humans are actually aliens from space that have colonized a planet occupied by what we take to be wild animals. I am more than sure this has been the theme already of a dozen or more novels. Try "Starbeast." Wonderful tale.
BUT:
I think the palentological data is pretty strong that this is probably not the case. It would very nicely explain why we are so very different, however.
But how to explain all the bones?
And how is it some of us have no desire at all to kill needlessly? Possibly those few are an evolved strain that will eventually be unable to mate with the original alien strain.
I assure you I know where this is going next.
Post that on the "other" thread if you will.
Edit:
My gosh. Werner is getting nervous.
How else would he have missed the obvious. The human who has never folded their own thoughts together with those of others
has not been born.
Edit2:
The original post said I needed the help of others to decipher what is in my spinning mind.
After a bit he caught the obvious I noted above.
Werner is a good man.
Who is, as best I can see, now nervous and has gone back to his conceptual foundation, the soul.
But I am happy to see the concept of the soul, after 2000+ years, is now no longer bewildering.
The line of thought is developing nicely.
All based on Largo's painting.
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WBraun
climber
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I've said this many times jstan
If you leave out the understanding of the soul.
You will be perpetually bewildered forever about this.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"look at the way those two individuals reacted."
Like I said, I simply did something I was going to do last night when I read Gobees post, make a joke out of the 800 lb. gorilla.
SO WHAT. I wasn't responding to you at all jstan...you have a huge ego dude!!
AND, you have a HUGE problem with the divinity of Jesus Christ...not "religion"!
I have not heard you say one thing about Allah!
I, personally could care less about your beliefs!
You are simply trying to bait people.
You lack inner peace, so you blame outer circumstances...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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jstan- "Do one thing then , look at yourself, really closely."
Precisely what I did at 18 years old, and continue to do on a daily, moment to moment basis.
And the standard i use is Jesus Christ!
Jesus Christs tells us to look at our own hearts and compare them to His words/life.
How about you jstan, what is your standard?
I do not judge anyone. I simply live by what Jesus Christ preach's and follow His command to tell others about Him.
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WBraun
climber
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Trip7
I think he was doing an experiment it's what scientists do, so it's normal.
I think he is happy with the results he got.
So don't let it get to you ....
What now?
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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I didn't know that this conversation would have the momentum of a massive body in motion when it came to the interjection of personal spirituality. I had asked:
How many people believe they are themselves spiritual beings that survive beyond their bodies -- whether or not they believe in God?
Apparently, the concept is so miniscule that it has the effect of a pea-sized piece of stray matter colliding with Jupiter. I.e., none whatsoever.
Is this a political discusion that only recognizes Republicans and Democrats? I dropped that false dichotomy a long time ago. I've personally seen people hold up BOTH science and religion as screens behind which they do their nefarious deeds -- no different than a shyster lawyer, crooked cops or a some bozo hawking hot watches.
I've known a physicist of extremely analytical and skeptical bent who prayed the rosary and other firm practioners of physical and spiritual faiths (or none) who had a definite sense and personal experience of a personal spiritual identity without any ideology or personal experience in regard to God.
Beginning at an early age, I've experienced phenomena which have led me to perceive that the individual I am is spiritual in nature and that my body and the world around me is something I am in contact with, operate with and within but which is not me. These experiences have included seeing future events specifically and exactly, seeing things visually at a distance without my eyes that I subsequently confirmed with visual inspection, waking suddenly in the middle of the night and knowing that someone dear to me who was hundreds of miles away was in great fear and confirming the precise timing of the situation some days later, etc.
For some time now, that's how I perceive other people, as spiritual entities. It's my observation that the dirty, rock bottom basis of cruelty, disservice, bigotry, indifference, hatred, dismissal, etc. is the failure to see the being in front of them rather than the "thing" about them that apparently justifies such attitudes or actions. (He's black, she didn't go to Harvard, they're Democrats, Yankees, laborers, rich folk, ugly, etc.) I've seen such manifested by religious folk as well as confirmed "it's all just physical" folks. And I've seen what I consider to be the spiritual recognition, caring and respect by folks on "both sides of the fence". So, to me, this is not a matter of which side of the supposed polarity you are on. I think it's more person to person and person by person -- and I connect that with how people, themselves, view themselves and others. I have my own view which is informed by my own personal experiences.
I would like to know of the people who are participating in this thread if they believe they are themselves spiritual beings that survive beyond their bodies -- whether or not they believe in God?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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WB- "What now?"
Haven't given it a whole lot of thought!
I was wondering why jstan seems to be so preoccupied with the "killing" accusations "And how is it some of us have no desire to kill at all needlessly." Well, if I were allowed a question, I would ask who are the "some of us" he is referring to? And who are the one's that ARE "killing needlesly".
And why does he tend to ignore the fact that I posted up thread, in regards to the Christians being the ones who were persecuted/killed in the Inquisition(not the one's doing the killing)!
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WBraun
climber
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GBrown
So true.
Trip7
I don't know why jstan is obsessed with this "killing" stuff.
Maybe another one of his experiments?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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GBrown!
I believe we are body, soul and spirit beings. And the soul/spirit go on to "survive" or continue to exist after death.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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I think we could compile a history of our society that chronicles revelations when our view of the world changes so radically that we are hardly able to recognize the former world view, i.e. the universe orbits around he earth...
Climbing have seen bits of this. I got to watch in person something happening to John Salathe when he returned to Camp 4 after many years and watched Robbins and Pratt do the North Face of Sentinel Rock in a few hours. It happened to me in the meadow watching Hans and Yuji climb the Nose in record time. Now we have Alex Honnald showing us things. (I'm quite relieved that my talented son hasn't joined the fray.) These are all little corners of a grand Mandelbrot pattern that I'm hinting at here...
I have had suspicions for some time now that we are on the verge of revelations that will thoroughly eclipse our previous expansions of knowledge. My feeling is that on these threads and in the broader context of the sciences and our society we are like little mice nibbling on a great rope holding up a grand weight of truth. Sometimes we are very good at seeing the pattern...sometimes we entirely miss the forest while looking at the trees. We nibble and nibble...
Along with this premonition I suspect that some of the unusual claims taken on faith by the world's religions will suddenly be revealed true in ways that are entirely amazing and unexpected to society at large...and all the more so to the great chagrin of the faithful...
...be careful what you ask for...
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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There is something very odd about the way life has been arranged on this planet by whoever created it; a deeply organized Catch 22.
We are born into this world with feelings of love and a sense of fairness and appreciation for aesthetics; into a world where life cannot continue without consuming other life forms in various brutal fashions.
Our whole society and existence is arranged as a hierarchy of who trumps who: the pecking order, dog eat dog (and the reverse spelling), who has the most money, who is the biggest and toughest, who is the holiest, who is the most beautiful or handsome, who can climb a rock faster, who went to the best school and got the best grades and then wrote the most peer-reviewed papers, who has the biggest trophy heads on the wall of their den, who has the biggest diamond ring, who can out-maneuver you on the freeway...endlessly...
In a world of endless abundance where we could make every citizen a millionaire by means of a minor tax on the most wealthy 2 percent; we compete fiercely for artificial scarcities. We seize on any minute differential to get ahead of our companions in life.
Somehow within the scope of our lives we are challenged to resolve these conflicting aspects of our existence - to be wise and compassionate in a world of crass competition.
You'd think that the creator was just trying to keep us busy while watching in amusement as we thrash around wrestling an essentially impossible task.
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apogee
climber
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"Why do so many people believe in God?"
Beats the sh*t outta me.
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jstan
climber
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"And why does he tend to ignore the fact that I posted up thread, in regards to the Christians being the ones who were persecuted/killed in the Inquisition(not the one's doing the killing)!"
777:
You have said you did not consider catholics to be christian. Your question above rests on an arbitrary definition you have made and probably share with very few others.
A couple of times you have posted you were raised catholic and left it with prejudice. That means you really did not like it at all. Then you had your life threatening experience and have out of it generated a personal relationsip with god and have developed your own spirituality. That's what I remember. Along the way you indicated your prejudice with regards the oldest and most powerful christian church caused you to consider them not christian. And so you raise your ill-formed question.
My answer is that christians have probably killed christians more often than they have killed non-christians. But the numbers in both categories are large. In New England we were drowning witches. Indeed if I remember correctly during the Crusades in order to get money one band of crusaders slaughtered the people in a christian city. They ended up getting no further support from the business class in Italy as a result and were eventually slaughtered themselves. But that is my recollection. I can go dig out the link.
A more recent example: the abortion doctor whose christian murderer was just executed, was a prominent member in a christian church. He was shot while in church.
My point has been that humans appear to be very needy creatures. The inquisition went on under the guise of spiritual purification but were actually meant to consolidate secular power in the hands of the instigators. Some people wanted power, were greedy, and did not particularly care how they got what they wanted. It happened because there was no separation of church and state and the instigators were not following christ's teachings.
And that long history of conflicted interest in Spain, in Europe and in England is the reason our nation was set up based upn that separation.
I think it is nice that you have a relationship with god. But that is not enough to cause me to forget all that has come before from people who said they too had a relationship with god.
It hasn't been pretty.
I'll say to you what I said to GoB. Go out and live what Jesus taught. That is the role Jesus gave you. When you are given hate, respond with love. When struck turn the other cheek. Study what Gandhi accomplished in India doing this. It is amazing. The power of those teachings has no better testimony on earth.
You can't stand in god's place.
Do you really think god is helped by what you are doing?
On another topic:
Long is giving me a hard time. That pictograph has to be a modern work, probably coming from the holocaust. The hands are reaching out - for life.
My point remains. Why are humans so brutal? So needy. Sometimes they are even greedy. But not here in the US of course.
We seem to be the only life form here that has this problem.
(Am I the only one who thinks this to be curious? No other specie. Zip. Nada.)
And it is a problem.
The problem is not getting better.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jesus is asking the same question today that He asked nearly 2,000 years ago. "Who do you say I am?"
What is your answer?
He stated that He would remember you before God the Father:
"Whoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him I will confess also before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:32
It is a simple and personnel relationship, not some "power trip" as some would like everyone to believe.
It is not to late, but the time is short.
Once you ask Him into your heart, then He will reveal Himself to you.
Edit: Just read the above post by jstan. Yes John i am doing just that, living the life that Jesus Christ called me to live, I have been for some years now.
You seemed to have missed the part about "The Great Commission." Bringing Christ to the lost/to the ends of the world. That IS what I am doing here in one small way!
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jstan
climber
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"Jesus is asking the same question today that He asked nearly 2,000 years ago. "
And he is getting the same answer.
Gandhi lived christ's teachings and through them freed an entire nation.
Then he was shot dead.
You have made my point for me. We are not improving. 2000 years and we have not moved an inch.
There is something basic within us.
We need to find out what this flaw really is.
People say it was Einstein who said it is madness to do something over and over again the same way while expecting the result to be different.
Been doing it for 2000 years now. Odds aren't looking good.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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No time right now as I have to rush off to do the Sunday flowers for the largest Marine Corps chapel on island which I do every week, open minded heathen that I am.
Here's a couple of interesting articles from the New York Times meanwhile.
Turns out our thread here reflects the larger American society?!
You Say God Is Dead? There’s an App for That
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/03/technology/03atheist.html?hpw
as well as an interesting new phenomenon which is bound to cause a lot of consternation among traditional Democrats and redefine the party.
Rise of the Religious Left
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/03/opinion/03blow.html
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Locker!
Why do you continually bring up this "ghey" reference/analogy to asking God into your life? For God to take over your life? There is a place in your life that is the center or thrown of your life. Either God will rule your life, or the god of this world will!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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I've been told a story that Gandhi was surrounded by western reporters asking him questions one day. He sent them away with a promise he would answer one question once they could agree on one.
The reporters returned after a while and asked him, "Mr. Gandhi, what do you think about western civilization?"
Gandhi thought for a while before replying, "Well, I think it would be a good idea!"
---------
I understand that Walt Whitman stated that in order for civilization to exist it must have a back door into wilderness.
---------
I wonder if we should have a thread titled, "Is it possible to have a civilization, and how would you recognize one if you saw it?"
I'll start by suggesting that the existence of a civilization depends upon mutual respect and trust.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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jstan, things are right on target. Just as it was prophesied, the world/America is becoming more and more humanistic/secular etc. There will be a great falling away/apostasy, and then the Tribulation and 3.5 years into it the Antichrist...
You seem to think that we Christians are attempting to bring some worldwide conversion to JC! It is not ever going to happen, not supposed to. We are just called to bring the knowledge of JC to the ends of the world and then...
The world is getting darker and darker, and will continue to. You might view it as brighter and brighter!
There will be a one world ecunemical church. A mix of all the current world religions. But die hard Christians like myself and Gobee will either be long gone(raptured)or persecuted to the point of not being allowed to by and sell...you have heard it all, but God is right on time!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Locker- "I "Asked" God into my life???..."
I meant to say "...in REGARDS to asking God into ONE'S life!"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Gandhi- "Well I think it would be a good idea."
Bhwaaahahaha...to funny!
Yes, we certainly do act uncivilized at times!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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G.B./T.C.
Life comes from life, were a link in the human chain!
You come with nothing and you go with nothing, no Win-O-bagos to the other side!
By the time you learn and understand a thing or two, your older than dirt!
Of course I believe in the hereafter, and I'll take a cardboard box in heaven then a mansion here!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Yes, and life feeds upon life. You can't live without devouring other living entities.
What kind of a God creates a world based on such a horrendous paradigm?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Yeah, I wonder how the tree feels about being eaten... maybe god should have created man as a life form that could survive by eating dirt.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4760421
John.1:1-18 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John.3:1-21 (KJV)
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[19] And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
[20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
[21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Well, I'm off to the First Church of John Muir, the Wilderness of the Sierras. GOD bless everyone and be safe in your adventures.
Truth has a way a entering in when nothing else can. GOD's words are the words of life and will make your heart skip with joy.
"Search your feelings Luke, you know it too be true."
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Wow, a direct response. THANK YOU TripL7 very much.
When the question was first posed I was asked if it was a trick question for Buddhists. The second posing was first greeted with what seemed almost like a warning against bringing up the subject (again). Hey, this is a long thread and I am a newbee on it. I didn't know that it was already reduced to unimportance so everyone could get back to the BIG FIGHT between
God's - soldiers -- and the -- soldiers - of the Universe of Stuff
I reduce it to this simplicity with humor with respect for you all.
Like a little kid in the middle of an argument between grownups, and with due respect to his elders, I'm gonna quietly keep asking where the bathroom is:
How many of you soldiers believe you are yourself a spiritual being that survives beyond your body -- whether or not you believe in God?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Good heavens, that's the second time that Gandhi aphorism has popped up here in the last week.
TripL7!!! certainly seems to feel he's special. Anyway, he's so fond of predicting that perhaps he'll tell us just when the events he talks about will occur. Within his (chosen) lifetime, apparently, but he surely can tell us more.
And the three-headed monster, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld, looked a lot like the anti-Christ to me. They even mocked the bible-pounders in private.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Been doing it for 2000 years now. Odds aren't looking good.
More like a million and a half years or so.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Weschrist wrote-
We are a race of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings with small protuberances projecting into this world...What "you" know as "you" is nothing more than an artifact, ripples and shadows of the projection process.
That's pretty cool.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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"Why do so many people believe in God?" (a) Because nothing beats a good God narrative as a basis for the "practice" of living. Indeed it is so good on so many counts it can be institutionalized. (Then it is called "religion.") (b) Because sometimes there are bigger concerns in life (and its practice) than just the raw, cold, hard truth.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Weschrist wrote-
We are a race of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings with small protuberances projecting into this world...What "you" know as "you" is nothing more than an artifact, ripples and shadows of the projection process.
That's pretty cool.
So now Wes is claiming he IS the spaghetti monster?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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[Announcer:] Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
Welcome to radio station EXP.
Tonight we are featuring an interview
with a very peculiar looking gentleman
who goes by the name of Mr. Paul
Corusoe on the dodgy subject of are
there or are there not flying saucers
or UFOs? Please Mr. Corusoe, please
could you give us your regarded
opinion on this nonsense about
spaceships and even space people?
[Mr. Corusoe:] Thank you As you well know
you just can't believe everything you
see and hear, can you? Now, if you'll
excuse me, I must be on my way.
[Announcer:] Bu...but,but...gulb...I,I,don't belive it
[Mr. Corusoe:] Pffffttt!!...Pop!!...Bang!!...Etc!!!?
...LOL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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GBrown-
Sorry if I seemed to blow you off but I was out of the house all day. It seemed like a trick Buddhist question at the time because I had just finished reading a book, Rainbow Painting, about the deeper layers of Buddhist meditation and the intermediate state between life and death.
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the idea that the philosophical Buddhists say (not the ordinary people), "There is no God and there is no soul", yet they maintain that something reincarnates. This is usually described as an aggregate of karma, that upon departing the dead person, assumes impersonality until it finds the next human to attach to.
Roshi Jiyu-Kennet, a Soto Zen teacher in the U.S., explained it with this parable. Our karma is like a fish put into a cloth bag and forgotten. After a few days it smells so you throw the fish away. The stink of it remains in the bag however, and anything else put into the unwashed bag picks up the smell.
To me this seems to contradict other teachings by other Buddhist masters who say that we enjoy exactly the karma in this lifetime that we earned for ourselves in previous lives, a teaching which I have found particularly useful in making the psychological transition from being a victim to being in control of situations by changing my attitude toward them.
Meanwhile, it took me a long time to wrestle with this because an impersonal definition of karma is the first Buddhist teaching that doesn't agree with my own intuition and experience. I find the theories of reincarnation propounded by the Hindus, Jains, Gnostic Christians, Sufi Muslims, and Hassidic Jews to be more sympathetic. The difficulty in understanding Buddhist metaphysics to know if one agrees or not, is that it is so much more in-depth than that of other religions, it takes many years of diligent study just to fathom what they're saying at the deepest levels.
Tying this to your original question, I would have to say that yes, it seems possible that reincarnation and other forms of life after death could exist as a quasi physical process without a soul or God, especially if it was tied into genetic inheritance in some way. The Buddhists seem to be indicating this in their deepest teachings. Personally, I find this explanation unsatisfying, based on my own personal experiences, but it may simply be that my understanding is not in depth enough yet.
For sure I've learned on this thread that personal experiences count for nothing with either extremes of the argument and are discounted by both fundamentalist Christians and atheists. One ties everything to their own scriptural interpretations and the other to the demands of universal replicability. Since we live and die as individuals however, I don't find either stance very satisfying.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Thanks Jan, yer coool! Curiosity, what do you do for a living? Feel free to respond in general terms as you please.
I'm laughing right now because after I asked that question I suddenly recalled a wonderful scene in one of my favorite Western movies (Outlaw Josie Wales) by one of my favorite actors and "personalities", Clint Eastwood, who I also consider to be a great purveyor of spiritual truth. In this scene, a bounty hunter comes into the bar asking for Josey
Wales. Clint says "That'd be me" and then asks "Are you a bounty hunter?" BH says "You gotta make a living somehow" to which Clint replies "Dying ain't much of living son."
Finishing what I just wrote, I recalled a "joke" from the book "Zen Humor" (author forgotten). It goes something like this:
Master died while standing on his head and nobody notice for awhile. Master's wife walked by him and noticed he was dead so she pushed him over and walked away muttering "Even in death he gives me trouble."
I enjoy these because they portray communication and action by individuals who know, quite off-handedly, that they are spiritual beings and the life of a body is reduced to its relative importance.
I also respond to portrayals which don't involve life and death but where the point displayed is of human beings rising above "worldly" traps that keep them at odds or blind to the misery created by their actions.
I frequently feel great grief when seeing wonderful things like this because at the same time it reminds of the current lack and past losses of the same. I do a fair amount of laughing but I understand and admire people who have the fortitude to weep for mankind.
I believe there's an animating spiritual element in all living things. That doesn't say that the physical world has not been created but it is observable as obeying physical laws whereas living things are observable as animated, purposeful and active in turning the physical universe and its laws to their own continuance. There's nothing wrong with evolution except for the exclusion of an animating intention/purpose. I heard an interview on an "it's science only"-type of radio show. The guest had devised a computer program that generated randomness and proved that life would have come out of just random chemical connections because he got coordinated things happening just like the formation and development of life. The guest and host were quite pleased that they had refuted creationists and their like. Neither of them recognized that the program was worthless when the guest mentioned that the only command he entered into the program was "Don't Die" (the scientist's equivalent of "Survive"). The guest was blind to having himself caused the effect he worshipfully attributed to random chance.
I guess that might be a good description of the source of misery on this planet as far as the family of Man is concerned. People doing things, then assigning the responsibility to someone or something else or recognizing no responsibility at all. Most accounts of God and the greater philosophical/religious teachings deal deeply with the concern that mankind get on the ball in regard to this element and stories about those who did, those who didn't and what kind of Hell there is to pay for the latter.
So even on a philosophical basis I can find confirmation of my own personal experience that I'm an individual spiritual being. Why would God desire to have conversation with all these individual people here if he didn't have some respect and care for them individually on a sort of family basis -- i.e., that these here people have a similar essence or nature as God - that being of a spiritual nature rather than a conglomeration of chemicals.
Which is why I asked my question as to who believes that they are themselves spiritual beings - whether or not they believe in God?
Thanks for your reply Jan. It's nice talking with you.
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WBraun
climber
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GBrown
Thanks for your excellent post.
I was getting worried that there was no good brain left on this forum .....
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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the code has been broken...
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jstan
climber
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Gary:
I think your comment
"I enjoy these because they portray communication and action by individuals who know, quite off-handedly, that they are spiritual beings and the life of a body is reduced to its relative importance."
advances this discussion. It brings in "importance."
What is importance?
Let's look at something that exists. We know something exists if we also are able to know that it does not exist. Life is always about comparisons. Good. Bad.
Being alive is a comparison. Most of the time we are alive we spend prefering "A" over "B". OK. Then something is "important" if we feel that we prefer that thing exist over the alternative of it not existing.
So we now know what importance is. It is a preference.
But once we are dead we personally can no longer can tell whether we exist.
Then even to ourselves we cease to be important.
What is really lost is the ability to prefer.
We are very needy creatures. Look at Largo's pictograph. If you look at a human you look at a creature that wants. Much data supports the concept that we want to survive. We prefer that we continue to exist.
Once you are dead, though, even you do not care anymore whether or not you live.
That is complete self-negation of your life.
You are no longer there to prefer that you be alive.
This is why people want to become president and have a library built for them. To avoid complete negation.
That is also where spirituality comes in. If something, anything, is left behind that can prefer-
complete self-negation is avoided.
It is the self-negation that terrifies us.
We don't prefer that.
I may actually be able to answer the OP now. You judge. Why do so many people, especially in the US, believe in god.
Here in the US we, individually, have had almost anything we wanted for the last 50 years. Now we insist, also, on avoiding ultimate self-negation with a fervor not before seen. It is one of our wants. And if we have a personal relationship with god
we have an entitlement.
so bloody american it takes your breath away.
What's the answer?
Have a big garage sale and empty your garage so you can park your car in it. Then when you want to buy the next thing
realize you cannot have what you want.
That car stays in the damn garage.
Done.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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"Show me that which claims it is deity that does not emanate from the mouth of man."
"What is God but the unknown, propitiated in the language of men."
"A man assured me with all the passion of his certainty that the return of Orpheus from the land of the dead was true. I find it difficult to believe."
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WBraun
climber
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The first symptom of an intelligent person:
He is not illusioned by the false identification of the body with his true self.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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The Obedient Italian Wife!
There was an Italian immigrant man who had worked all his life, had saved all of his money, and was a real "miser" when it came to his money.
Just before he died, he said to his Italian wife..."When I die, I want you to take all my money and put it in the casket with me. I want to take my money to
the afterlife with me."
And so he got his wife to promise him, with all of her heart, that when he died, she would put all of the money into the casket with him.
Well, he died. He was stretched out in the casket, his wife was sitting there - dressed in black, and her best friend was sitting next to her..
When they finished the ceremony, and just before the undertaker got ready to close the casket, the wife said, "Wait just a moment!"
She had a small metal box with her; she came overwith the box and put it in the casket.
Then the undertaker locked the casket down
and they rolled it away. So her friend said, " I know you were not fool enough to put all that money in there with your husband."
The loyal wife replied, "Listen, I'm an Italian Catholic & I cannot go back on my word. I promised him that I was going to put that money in the casket with him.."
You mean to tell me you put that money in the casket with him??"
"I sure did," said the wife. "I got it all together, put it into my account, I wrote him a check.... If he can cash it, then he can spend it." AMEN!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Thanks GBrown and Jan!
Language is not the right tool for understanding this subject, except very superficially...
"The Word of God" is an oxymoron. Christ didn't start a church or write a bunch of scriptures.
All these people quoting scripture are just shirking responsibility for living their own lives. If you want to be a Christian, don't bother going to church and listening to someone quote the bible. Stop repeating all these words and follow in his footsteps and go quietly into the desert by yourself for forty days. Forget about proselytizing, pick up trash, care for hurt creatures, treat people with kindness, heal the earth, seek ways to be helpful...
It is not that we are ever reborn or have life after death. Those are amazing misconceptions created by bored people devising tricks - playing intellectually with the-spirit-that-moves-in-all-things.
We just are...forever...
People who find death to be a mystery have let the noise of society interrupt their connection to life. The more dishonesty, pain, and disrespect we create in our spiritual universe; the harder it is to stay connected and the more people retreat into narrow-minded fables...
People have been walking this planet for at least six million years. What makes you think that the squabbling fables of the past few thousand years are so special?
Some of the native peoples who live close to the earth understand rocks to be the oldest and wisest of people. (if you want a religious experience...quiet your busy mind...go off very quietly by yourself and climb a rock that a human has never touched...)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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nice to see walt whitman on this thread.
here's another poem addressing the subject, by jonathan swift, who had a doctorate in divinity:
With a Whirl of Thought opress'd,
I sink from Reverie to Rest.
An horrid Vision seiz'd my Head.
I saw the Graves give up their Dead.
Jove, arm'd with Terrors, burst the Skies,
And Thunder roars, and Light'ning flies!
Amaz'd, confus'd, its Fate unknown,
The World stands trembling at his Throne.
While each pale Sinner hangs his Head,
Jove, nodding, shook the Heav'ns, and said,
"Offending Race of Human Kind,
By Nature, Reason, Learning, blind:
You who thro' Frailty step'd aside,
And you who never fell—thro' Pride:
You who in different Sects have shamm'd,
And come to see each other damn'd:
(So some Folks told you, but they knew
No more of Jove's Designs than you)
The World's mad Business now is o'er,
And I resent these Pranks no more.
I to such Blockheads set my Wit!
I damn such Fools!—Go, go, you're bit."
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Psalm 40:5, You have multiplied, O Lord my God, your wondrous deeds and your thoughts toward us; none can compare with you! I will proclaim and tell of them, yet they are more than can be told.
Isaiah 55:8-9, For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 66:18, “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory,
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator." Romans 1:25
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jstan
climber
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"Language is not the right tool for understanding this subject, except very superficially..."
Except for Largo's pictograph I see only words in this discussion. And as in most philosophical exchanges it is going endlessly in circles at least partly because words don't have the same meaning for different people.
Now Gary Brown suggested there was some substantive connection between the word "spiritual", something largely undefined and the subject of the discussion, and "importance." Now that word has some substance to it. So I proceeded to try and make that word's meaning well defined using an anthropic argument.
From there one has to proceed in a disciplined logical process if one hopes to end up at a point different from the discussion's starting point.
Which is what I did. Now it is not necessary for anyone to agree with even one position I detailed. But for the discussion to end with two persons agreeing that our final position is different from our starting position
a disciplined logical process has to be agreed upon and followed.
If no one attempts to counter what I advanced and to use a logical process to lay the basis for their claim there is only one possible conclusion.
We here do not have a shared interest in moving two or more people in agreement to a different understanding than the understanding they have now.
There is no discussion here.
There is only self-reinforcement. Spoken randomly without hope of actual communication.
We are muttering to ourselves.
Establishing that we are muttering to ourselves would, by itself, be an advance.
I'll hazard a guess. I feel pretty sure we will hear from Gary. We need to hear what Gary means when he associates spirituality with importance. I am also certain there will be content there. Not just words.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Good news everybody.
As I predicted last week it would, the term "hypercratic powers" is now identified by Google. As originating right here on a "climbing" website. Of all places.
A week ago it wasn't identified. So this term is now in the public domain, by one measure at least, and it represents... wait for it... an innovation.
So, so far here's what we got:
hypercratic powers- those "higher" powers that control or define our lives.
Hypercrates- the personification of hypercratic powers.
Now we're all empowered to talk about those "higher powers" in charge of our fate or in charge of our lives without necessarily calling them gods or God. Unless you want.
I thank Hypercrates (cf: I thank God) everyday my family is in good health.
I'm grateful the hypercratic powers let me climb still as hard as I do at my age.
Trust me: Might take some getting used to- as all new words or names or terms do- but it is very handy terminology in discussions re: God, Gods, theology, higher powers, controlling dynamics behind the Cosmos, etc.
I hope you all had a good fourth of july and maybe a good climb...
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jstan
climber
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Hypercrates no!
Not the Apple Pie!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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And here I thought that hypercrates were some sort of starship jalopies.
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WBraun
climber
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Simply by word jugglery and grammatical puzzles they waste their time ......
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i've decided to quit swimming against the tide and come over to fructo here on this hypercrates crap. i advise the rest of you to do the same. it's really a very zen thing. embrace that which repulses you. unexpected vistas will unfold.
so fruct, where do we go from here? ope thy sagacious maw, grasshoppers prostrate (not prostate, pay attention here) before thee!
oh, i know. the next step will be a wiki entry. please let me help.
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WBraun
climber
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By their constant word jugglery and different calculations of the scriptures, they are conceptually bewildered by their theories and endless mental speculations that lead them into the black hole of nescience.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Part of the limitation of language is that it is a symbolic reference system that has to refer to something relatively real. If you express something in words to a person lacking a common understanding, then the point is missed entirely.
In my study of artificial intelligence, I was mystified for longer than I like to admit by how much information people can convey to each other using a few words; considering how pedestrian the spoken language is compared to the I/O rate of computers.
Then I realized that people have in their minds a huge base of understanding of familiar domains. I have been calling these 'Experiential Models'. With very few words you can determine whether you share an experience base with another person that you meet. Then you can talk about the domain with a relative economy of words.
The common aspect of SuperTopo is rock climbing experience, which tends to require a certain independent bold intelligence and perhaps makes these threads more interesting than FaceBook.
For another example, you can ask someone if they like to sail, and if they respond that they get seasick on the dock; you can guess their level of knowledge about the subject. Try explaining concepts of sailing to someone who gets seasick on the dock.
However if the person responds that they built a boat and sailed it to New Zealand; then you already know you don't have to explain the pointy end of the boat goes through the water first!
So I started wondering how we capture these 'experiential models' other than between our ears through experience in the operating domain. I discovered two things for myself: One that we don't; and two that we think we do (which tends to stop the learning process).
Brilliant writers are sometimes able to lead people using bits of common knowledge to something approaching understanding of challenging subjects i.e. 'Moby Dick' or 'Three Years Before The Mast'. We come away from reading impressed by the world that has been captured in the book.
However reading books doesn't make you a sailor. The big difference between a landlubber and a sailor is that the landlubber doesn't have to put the land there.
A great book is composed by building a world in the readers minds using smaller bits of common experience aggregated to build a virtual world that is new to them. Some people read many books about sailing or climbing and never learn to do either. And even more people read the bible obsessively. However being a bible expert does not make you a knowledgeable sailor on the rough seas of the spirit world.
You have to start somewhere. Someone who lacks real life experience in the world of the spirit will not understand a concept such as the wisdom of the rocks. That is why I recommend following Christ's footsteps into the desert as a preferred alternative to studying the bible.
Engineers don't limit themselves to word descriptions in the design of complex systems. They do use words in Program and Project Plans and a Requirements Database and a Concept of Operations Document and Risk Management Plans. But they also use CAD drawings and solid geometry models and schematics and functional flow block diagrams and failure modes and effects analysis and computational fluid dynamics modeling. They also build functional prototypes, virtual iron birds, hanger queens, and brass board electrical models.
So I have spent the past twenty five years professionally trying to capture these 'experiential models' for challenging operating domains. Meeting Will Wright, the brilliant programmer at Maxis and Electronic Arts represented a breakthrough for me; and I have maintained a long association with the team that built SimCity and SimEarth.
I have designed and developed a long line of similar programs for Federal agencies, including SimEnvironment and others for US EPA, several tools for DOE including design contributions for the LLNL NIF computer control system, and several for NASA as a contractor member of the systems engineering and integration team; including SimStation for the International Space Station and SimConstellation for the Space Shuttle replacement program. (There are many aspects of space operations that are very non-intuitive to people used to earth gravity.) I call these programs 'systems engineering frameworks' that integrate all the other systems engineering tools; using virtual environments developed for multi-player online role playing games.
Ok, so some wise-ass will ask if I'm doing SimSpirit...
...nope!
However these virtual frameworks impose a discipline into your thinking that isn't usually present in other knowledge capture tools such as books. People tend to be very good at filling in the blanks and inconsistencies by imagining 'here there be magic'. Inconsistencies and false assumptions tend to become glaringly obvious when you have all the information linked together in a common framework.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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perhaps it would be wise for people to explain just what they believe in, i.e. what is "God"?
it is an easy dodge to say "God can't be defined" and disingenuous to boot... I'm not talking philosophical mumbo-jumbo here, just plain talk...
it would seem to my reductionist tendencies that perhaps discussing just what it is that is believed in or not believed in, at this juncture, might be productive....
...and I'm hoping that the Bible quoters will refrain from extensive quoting and just say, briefly and in their own words, what it is they believe in...
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WBraun
climber
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" ..it is an easy dodge to say "God can't be defined" and disingenuous to boot.."
Yes .....
One must be able to define both his external and internal features.
One must be able to define both his external and internal energies.
One must be able to define both the material and spiritual energies.
One must be able to define the bodily features of the Supreme lord.
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jstan
climber
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It may be that I believe only one thing.
I believe two words are 50% better than three words.
My hypothesis is we invent spirituality so something cares about us even after we are dead and don't care about even ourselves.
I expect the goal during life is to train the mind to be at peace with the idea of death.
I wonder if god is not a construct needed to avoid the effort it takes to train the mind.
EDIT:
Ed has, wisely. suggested a pause in the argumentation.
I complied.
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WBraun
climber
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God is beyond the mind.
Just as the human being is beyond the machine.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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God is a creation of the mind- some minds that is.
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WBraun
climber
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God is a creation of the mind- some minds that is. False
The mind is only a machine.
The spirit soul is the driver of the mind.
The soul is perceived by it's all pervading consciousness of the body.
The spirit soul exists permanently, remaining the same despite all changes of the body and the mind.
You are not the coat (body) as the conditioned spirit soul so thinks.
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jstan
climber
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That's all cool.
Now we need others to weigh in.
Who's next?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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the entire physical universe is sourced from a great ocean of spiritual energy - the-spirit-that-moves-in-all-things; all things are part of this and we all share a level-of-awareness in this
the physical universe was thought up by the-spirit-that-moves-in-all-things (a ubiquitous presence, not a him or an it)
it is amazing that the physical universe has been thought up with enough consistency that the sciences can create a fairly consistent intellectual framework studying repeatable instances in a universe of unique circumstances
physicists are doing their job well enough to start seeing inconsistencies in the thoughts creating the physical universe
religions are nuts
other universes are occasionally glimpsed
[...not really expecting to impress Ed!]
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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So far, here's what we have:
hypercratic powers- those "higher" powers that control or define our lives.
Hypercrates- the personification of hypercratic powers.
Now if we add one more, we are really empowered. Here it is:
hypercratics- the study of the so-called "higher" powers.
Notice that God, Gods, theology- all in addition to higher powers- can be covered under this new study or discipline.
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jstan
climber
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Hypercraticism?
Hypercraticizistic?
Hypercratology?
I'm starting to shake.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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HFCS, you failed to define what that God is... you only said it is the one the matriarchal line of your family believed in... being "real" is only a part of the definition... rocks are real too... at least by the common definition of "real"... though others may weigh in here...
TomC hypothesizes a universe filled with spiritual energy, which, presumably is accessed by our spiritual side, and yet is connected with the physical universe in some way... or is subject to the same laws of reason, or perhaps he is implying are the background to the laws... he isn't too specific.
I am afraid you'd be disappointed by what physicists think they are thinking about... usually it is something pretty specific, and most physicists believe that our thoughts are irrelevant to the universe, it would do quite well without us...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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remember now, fructo, it was yer old buddy tony who got the ball rolling here.
down with them -isms. what good did they ever do? communism, capitalism, antidisestablishmentarianism, totally ineffective due to the squishy ending of the words.
gimme that hypercratics, dianetics, diuretics. them's got bite.
hey, i got one o' these going too--oidetics. dontcha love the sound of it? gonna make me rich. but it's not for everyone. don't worry, we'll call you.
but back to business here.
fruct--can we pray to hypercrates, like when we're up sheet crik with leaky oars?
or what if we're inadequate, if we fail--only got so much to give? will hypercrates help us out?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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so hypercrates is the grim reaper? but you pray to him when you go climbing? is that so's he won't reap you?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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all things are part of this spirit-that-moves-in-all-things and we all share a level-of-awareness in this
i keep suggesting it's all about awareness and we all have much to learn
language is useful in referring us to aspects of reality for which we already share a level of understanding
language is pretty limited when it comes to exploring new domains of understanding unless we go there together and agree upon words to describe what we see to others who have also seen
in my experience physicists are particularly good at this, certainly better than most religious seekers - perhaps you have read 'I am a Strange Loop" and 'The Trouble with Physics' and 'Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors'
the thread describing Hondo's recent accomplishments is interesting that way - relating new domains of accomplishment to an existing experience base shared by other expert climbers
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jstan
climber
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Here are JDF's original posts:
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 30, 2006 - 06:31pm PT
Am I missing something. Is it logical to believe in something that cannot be proved?
Why do you believe in God?
JDF
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2006 - 06:51pm PT
But what is bleak.
So what if at death our whole existence ends.
Is that a big deal?
JDF
And then Ed asked:
Jul 6, 2010 - 10:27am PT
perhaps it would be wise for people to explain just what they believe in, i.e. what is "God"?
it is an easy dodge to say "God can't be defined" and disingenuous to boot... I'm not talking philosophical mumbo-jumbo here, just plain talk...
it would seem to my reductionist tendencies that perhaps discussing just what it is that is believed in or not believed in, at this juncture, might be productive....
...and I'm hoping that the Bible quoters will refrain from extensive quoting and just say, briefly and in their own words, what it is they believe in...
Can we do this much????
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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hey, we've finally got an answer here. juan da farker started this thread, it died probably a gruesome death, but on the third year it arose again, brought back to life by the power of the taco. it's a miracle!
think about that for a minute. the great juan started it all, and we'd best pay close attention to his sacred scripture, lest we go astray. those precious words are certainly inspired. if only people would come to farker study after work on wednesdays.
that's it, fellas! juan is god! end of thread!
but, alas, like god, he went away and hasn't come back. but he will!
oops, sorry fructo--don't know what came over me. i renounce juan da farker and pedge my soul to hypercrates and hypercratics, lest woe befall me the next time i go climbing.
gobee, where are you when we need you? i can't do this all by myself.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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gobee, that's collosial. hypercrates and juan were certainly strange gods.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed wrote: "...most physicists believe that our thoughts are irrelevant to the universe, it would do quite well without us."
Thoughts are also irrelevant to most so-called spiritual experiences as well. In fact most spiritual disciplines are geared, at least at the outset, on detaching from thoughts, to which our attention is normally fused. Amazing to discover that "we" can "do quite well" without attachment to thoughts.
But I believe the deeper issue is from where does the "universe" Ed refers to actually arise. That non-place is out most basic nature, our "face before we were ever born," and the universe before it arose, and before consciousness arouse - so far as I can tell.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I agree with Tom and Largo. The source of all things is a great ubiquitous Presence. This Presence can be experienced as both intelligence and energy. It's always here whether we are aware of it or not. We have to reach out to it, as it never imposes on us. It is the impersonal source of the universe and yet It somehow responds to lowly humans too.
Getting acquainted takes a long time because our understanding and our compassion are so limited. It is benevolent and seems even to have a sense of humor to those who are adventurous in trying to get to know It and purify themselves to have a better understanding. It lends Its aid to whatever we ask if we are attuned to It, which means the request is for the benefit of others or for ourself so that we may benefit others. It wishes to aid humans in furthering beauty, knowledge, and love.
I would guess that religions maybe grasp 1% of It, and spiritual people maybe 5%. Many others are aided by It because their motives are pure (composers, artists, research scientists, inventors, great humanitarians), and never recognize the Source. When humans suffer it is because they have fallen out of alignment with the Presence, not because It punishes anyone or plays favorites.
This anyway, is my experience.
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WBraun
climber
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Religions maybe grasp 1% of It, and spiritual people maybe 5%.
How do you come up with these numbers? Would mean you are at 100% for you to make a judgment.
They're all just maybes.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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It's not always as it appears...
Satan Allowed to Test Job
Job 1:6, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” 8 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” 9 Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for no reason? 10 Have you not put a hedge around him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.” 12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Ed might be interested in commenting on notes I made to myself in Lee Smolin's book 'The Trouble with Physics':
"a string is a thought
and only a thought
and all these thought-strings compile together
forming a physical universe
are dark matter and dark energy the cosmic background spiritual presence?
scientists tend to be very uncomfortable studying the relationship of thought to the physical universe because this so much resembles magic; considered to be a thoroughly discredited field of study
however when you get down to studying the world at the level of creation, how can you think about it without influencing what is created?"
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i guess that's one thing that always bothered me about god, gobee. there he is, playing games with poor job just to prove a point to the devil. doesn't make god look very good, does it? i mean, why didn't he just tell the devil to bugger off and go to hell? i don't play games like that with people i consider my friends.
predation showed up early in evolution, fruc. it's kind of a discipline, so to speak. probably we've got it going in our midst, just when we think we have everything under control.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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TomC- Earlier you mentioned Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors. So were you a fan of Carl Sagan? Do you think he was a materialist or a reductionist or what?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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I have only read a few of Carl Sagan's books, but thoroughly enjoyed them. I just think of him as quite wise.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Werner-
You're right, those percentages are just a guess. I put them rather low because even the spiritual masters don't know the laws of physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics etc. which also came out of the consciousness of the infinite Presence.
I realize you could argue however, that at least some of them (the Avatars at least) have transcended these fields of knowledge through a more encompassing theoretical understanding which bypasses the details of these disciplines and thus understand a bigger percentage.
It's a little bit to my mind, like quibbling over which percentage each religion comprehends the Santana Dharma, the eternal Dharma or God's own religion, as opposed to their small corner of it. The main point is that none of them have a complete picture.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Go-B, aren't you capable of independent intelligent thought without quoting someone's scripture? Ed specifically requested your personal point-of-view as you understand it in your own words.
You don't so much seem to be participating in this forum as you are performing an intellectual exercise of picking up a few key words from each post and using that as an index pointer into an online bible.
I think any of us in this forum have the data mining skills to perform that research outside of this forum without your guidance. I could write a software program to do that automatically and leave it running in background mode to our discussion.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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it is not just thought... this science thing, but thought which predicts the outcome of an experiment, a "conversation with nature" as I.I. Rabi put it...
we don't yet know if String Theory will produce those predictions... will give us the text to have that conversation.
as for Dark Matter and Dark Energy, we know a bit about the former, and almost nothing of the later, but in the next couple of decades we'll know more... and bit by bit build up an understanding.
It seems mystical, but it really isn't, it's almost banal, just trying to explain some simple observations...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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That non-place is our most basic nature, our "face before we were ever born," and the universe before it arose, and before consciousness arouse...
The source of all things is a great ubiquitous Presence. This Presence can be experienced as both intelligence and energy.
I take such statements to be personal impositions of human desire over the unknown and indicative of an abiding need that some[non]thing / some[non]place exists 'beyond' us. Asserting 'this' is also accessible to us to experience would seem to then complete a highly self-referential circle of logic. What if 'it' [non]existed, but you couldn't experience it - would you be writing about it here?
I do believe we can experience all manner of varying 'altered' states of [non]consciousness by any of a myriad of means, but I personally wouldn't ascribe any of them to a universal anything anymore than I would to ascribe them to Zeus. I simply accept they are unknown to me and try not to project any more than that onto them.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Healyje: "I take such statements to be personal impositions of human desire over the unknown and indicative of an abiding need that some[non]thing / some[non]place exists 'beyond' us."
If you mean there is something beyond our conditioned and evolved egos, I would agree with you.
JL
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Ed, I have a lot of respect for your viewpoints and the polite care you put into expressing them.
I do realize that dark matter and dark energy are placeholders in our attempts to understand astronomical observations that don't line up with previously accepted calculations. And I realize that Gravity Probe-B and SLAC and NIF and CERN and other labs will hopefully refine our level of understanding of these matters.
The trouble with trying to use words like thought, mystical, spiritual, consciousness and such are that these terms are already so heavily overloaded with so many divergent concepts that it is difficult to put them to practical use for moving forward with our understanding of our universe.
I am trying to lend my voice to encourage the conceptualization of an underlying unifying principle to the physical universe, somewhere between quantum gravity, and the foundational problems of quantum mechanics, and the unification of particles and forces, and the free constants in the standard model of particle physics; in none of which do I claim expertise. But I am nonetheless suggesting a hypothesis that this underlying principle is not inanimate, but is by nature aware and creative.
And my personal direct experience leads me to believe that each of us is a viewpoint with some variable level-of-awareness within this ocean of universal awareness that we share together.
And that concepts of God are inspired by some or other big fish throwing its weight around in this shared ocean - i.e. hypercratic shark?...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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healyje-
The question is "why do you believe in a God" so of course the answer is framed in personal terms. And what else can a person honestly talk about than their own experiences? If you want to know why Thomas Acquinas believed, you can look that up yourself.
If you want universal replicability and material measurements, then best to stick with science. I feel confident in saying though, that when you first fell in love, you didn't need for it to be universally replicable to be real to you. Likewise, sex studies are interesting to read about but personal experience is a lot more satisfying. Rock climbing as well.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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T Bird- "i guess that is one thing that always bothered me about god, gobee. there he is, playing games with poor job just to prove a point to the devil."
There is much more to the story, and Job came to a different conclusion than you:
"My ears had heard of You, but now my eyes have seen You." Job 42:5
Job had only heard of God, but now Job has seen God with the eyes of faith and spiritual understanding. He can therefore except Gods ways with him, which include suffering.
When good people suffer, the human spirit struggles to understand.
The story of Job gives encouragement to godly sufferers by showing them their suffering provides an occasion like no other for exemplifying what true godliness is for human beings.
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Good point John.
"What is importance?
Let's look at something that exists. We know something exists if we also are able to know that it does not exist. Life is always about comparisons. Good. Bad.
Being alive is a comparison. Most of the time we are alive we spend prefering "A" over "B". OK. Then something is "important" if we feel that we prefer that thing exist over the alternative of it not existing.
So we now know what importance is. It is a preference."
Underlying "preference" is something implicit: "power of choice". Implicit to power of choice is foregoing perception of things from which to choose. Implicit to perception is a viewpoint which is perceiving. (I "prefer" to "back up" no more than this because further regression detaches me from what I can check with my own perceptions.)
We run around bumping into each other's "preferences" which may align or conflict in varying degrees.
I get what you're saying because there is a similarity between Importance and Preference in that they both involve a judgment call. "Preference" could imply no more than whimsy of choice unless modified by, let's say: "strong". "Importance" is the degree of pertinent ramifications that something has on the relevant circumstances or situation. In either case, different people will choose their preferences and importances based upon their viewpoint and their perception.
My comment was basically that if one had the viewpoint that they (the viewpoint itself) were not their body then it changed the importance with which they viewed their body. The ramifications of something "happening" to the body change. That's they way I was using "relative importance" there.
In any case, though I enjoy speculative discourse on powers and perceptions beyond my ken, I most thoroughly enjoy having good interaction with other beings. How do I mean that?
This morning going to work I was feeling quite chipper. When the elevator arrived, this overweight gal exited. We're familiar with each other to only to the extent we work in the same office building and she has an "air" about her of someone who's physical appearance is something she "lives with", something that is a constant factor in all her interactions with people. Being a bit extra "chipper", as she came out of the elevator and glanced at me I shot her a cheery "Hey, how was your holiday?" and it just shot right through that stuff she was carrying around and though she was turning away her head shot around and with a big smile she said "Good!" And in that instant she had zero attention on her body and it was just her and me, 2 live and happy beings saying "Hi" with some words.
Here's another example:
I had 2 dogs for awhile. They were tight pals and they had a game they would play where one would guard 1/2 of the yard from the other while the other tried to get past the "line" before being intercepted. Then they would trade places and play some more. One evening while I was outside reading a book, they were sniffing around real bored in the yard - Ruff was sniffing around the gate about 30 feet away with his butt toward Moonshine. I was looking at Moonshine and I saw her look at the "half-way-line" and get the idea of playing the game. She looked over at Ruff and her head tensed sharply in Ruff's direction. Ruff's head came up instantly from the bottom of the gate as if he'd been slapped and he looked over his shoulder to Moonshine. She was standing right at "the line" and she pointed her nose down to it and turning her head to the left and then to the right she traced the line across the yard, looked back at him and only then moved the rest of her body - into the crouched, ready position of the "defender of the line." Ruff "smiled" and the game was on.
Now I've experienced personally enough communication at distance without normal physical assistance, perception at distance without normal physical assistance and pre-perception through the apparent barrier of time. These were not particularly dramatic things. I've been around people who's abilities of this nature are pretty dramatic, in particular a girlfriend who could meet someone and rattle off for 20 minutes exact intimate details of the person's life until they'd had enough and split. She warned me off of taking Boyd Everett's offer of being his cameraman on the Dhaulagiri expedition in 1969. 7 people bought the farm including Boyd and his photographer (someone other than GBrown). There were other friends of her's who headed for McKinley and the Andes who didn't need a warning. I did and knowing her I declined the invitation.
All I'm saying is that in my experience, this stuff is a regular occurrence in life and it is not confined to human beings only.
Anyway, that's how I see things and the road to that viewpoint actually began with experience, rather than study of any particular philosophy or religion. That experience has, though, directed me to an appreciation of philosophy and religion and my own choices in that regard and is probably why I ended up bumping into people with similar experiences -- which experiences are (by my own experience, ha!) not confined to any particular philosophy, religion or practice or none of the above. Also, that people who haven't had such experiences are quite capable of doing so. I regard myself and others as spiritual beings with bodies.
I'm done. Using the word "experience" so often is becoming a bad experience. Besides, for a spiritual being, the night is young. Time for me to go out and rob all the women and rape all the men. Uhh. Well, you know what I mean. Actually, ahm tyred, ahm goin' tuh sleeep. Happy 6th of July!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I agree with idea we all have personal 'experiences'. What I have a hard time with is extrapolation to any notion that we're having the same experience or that experience is rooted in either anthropomorphic gods or some sort of [shared] universality. And I utterly fail to understand how anyone considers such [emotional] projections onto the unknown as anything but individual speculation or some form of groupthink. I've had enough 'alt.experiences' of a variety of kinds to understand what experiencing the unknown can be like, but what I've never been inclined towards is projecting unsubstantiated speculation onto any of it as 'fact'.
Why do so many people believe in Gods (or xyz)? From my perspective it's because they need to, and because part of the price of a high level of consciousness is suffering an excrutiating awareness of what we don't know. That, and we appear to be deeply hard-wired to be suspicious and afraid of the unknown so we name it and claim to know it in order to quell our individual and collective fear.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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The problem of not placing meaning on our experiences is to my way of thinking, the very source of modern man's existential angst. Refusing to look for meaning reduces us back to the level of animals. Falling in love is a value judgement based on an experience, so better just to stick with sex. Good poetry evokes emotion so better just to read tech manuals. With no shared sense of meaning, the only thing left to do is become economic animals and measure our worth by income and possessions. The correct answer to every social problem is the most expedient one.
The people at the top of our economic system have exploited all this very well and laugh all the way to the bank. And meanwhile the average person wonders why the highest rates of mental illness, suicide, and drug addiction occur in the educated and wealthy societies of the world?
To be human is to seek meaning. The more meaning we seek the more like a human and the less like a chimpanzee we are. The point of religions in the past was to express the highest levels of human meaning and aspiration for that culture and time. The problem today is that the traditional belief systems no longer do that for many people, some appearing more lacking than others.
Some modern individuals in privileged societies can distract themselves with agreeable activities and avoid asking questions of meaning, but this does not mean they are emotionally stronger or mentally superior, only more fortunate. When they become less fortunate, they will have little to fall back on.
No doubt the age of tribal messiahs is over among the educated. Therefore the solution it seems to me, is for individuals to begin to come up with new value systems rather than to simply go through life collecting experiences without questioning their meaning.
If individuals with no previous religious training have experiences that sound like those of traditional religious people, then this may be anthropocentric in as much as we all belong to one species. It might also tell us how the Presence relates to our particular species, or it might tell us about Its very nature. These are all valid issues for discussion.
To deny the discussion has any value however, is to me, to deny one's own humanity.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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looks like fructo done deleted his post about hypercrates being the grim reaper. too bad--that's kinda like losing sacred scripture, untold wisdom crumbling away in the dust of parchment. but tomcochrane is getting the idea--hypercratic sharks. perhaps the torch has been passed.
can't get to the bottom of fructo here, but we can work on gobee. someone upthread said "gobee is young", so i was figuring someone in middle school who does a little climbing and likes to witness for jesus. but then gobee starts talking about his wife and daughter. maybe he's one of those 16-year-old husbands in that sect of christianity where women get to have multiple spouses.
isn't it funny, jan--and largo too, what the heck--that the great gurus never seem to be great scientists, but great scientists often touch-- admittedly ever so lightly--on spiritual matters?
hartoonio: are you aware of the debate between string theorists and supersymmetrists? dark energy is a new one for me. i thought all energy was dark unless it got some photons going and was able to waver between infrared and ultraviolet. and dark matter is more of an astrophysical concept, no? we've never gotten any in hand, have we?
tripl: i'm afraid the book of job never meant more to me than being a great testament to the stubbornness of belief. belief certainly can be stubborn, as you might gather from a review of this thread. the job story also embodies the up-there/down-here mindset of western religion, a tradition that takes the authoritarianism intrinsic in most human politics and projects it into the spiritual. big mistake, IMO. i find it more than an amazing coincidence that navajo religion, to which i feel great affinity, derives from one of the least authoritarian societies in history.
one of the big problems of the christian tradition is its glorification of suffering. job is kind of a precursor to that. muslims, on the other hand, seem to have a bit more sanity in this department. suffering too easily becomes the means to spiritual breakthroughs, and those who crave such things make the mistake of going out and looking for it. don't worry, grasshopper, it'll come along on its own, and it could easily take you in the wrong direction, no matter how hard you study good books.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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A Shiggaion of David, which he sang to the Lord;
Psalm 7:7, Let the assembly of the peoples be gathered about you;
over it return on high.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The problem of not placing meaning on our experiences is to my way of thinking, the very source of modern man's existential angst.
I disagree, I would posit that projecting imaginary answers on the unknown is the very source.
Refusing to look for meaning reduces us back to the level of animals.
Looking for meaning is one thing, projecting imaginary meaning when one comes up empty after looking for meaning is another. The latter is the basis of the worlds religions.
With no shared sense of meaning...
People will invent one, either religious or material. We have the rates of mental illness, suicide, and drug addiction for many reasons, but in no small part because people realize the hollow promise of both material and religious 'rewards' and make-believe meaning.
The point of religions in the past was to express the highest levels of human meaning and aspiration for that culture and time.
The point of religions in the past and present is to play on their fears and tribal identity in order to amass power and control populations - it simply works less well in educatated societies.
...they will have little to fall back on.
I believe you've hit on the essential empty promise of religion right there.
...the Presence...
The essential empty promise in the flesh...
Its very nature...
Why not our very nature?
To deny the discussion has any value however, is to me, to deny one's own humanity.
I have no problem with the discussion, I have a problem with people making sh#t up and projecting it on themselves and others as facts in order to fill the void of the unknown. In many ways that need to stuff any shape block into all glaring unknown holes and our extreme intolerance of unanswered questions is what I personally think holds humanity back day after day after day. We'll remain primitive so long as the unknown equals a fear which must be resolved by any and all imaginary means.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Well said healyje!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan wrote:
To be human is to seek meaning. The more meaning we seek the more like a human and the less like a chimpanzee we are. which I probably disagree with since the latest studies of chimpanzee "culture" show an institution a bit more nuanced and complex than that statement makes it out to be... in particular the value of "seeking meaning" seems to be naive... but telling. We "seek meaning" and assume it must be there, but the only place we find meaning is with respect to our social setting, and in communicating it... In fact, the lone person wandering their life in the wilderness, experiencing their private revelation, and expanding their personal awareness would be thought to have lived a "meaningless" existence were they to fail to communicate that experience. And in any case, we cannot judge, one way or the other, whether that experience was meaningful.
TB asks:
you aware of the debate between string theorists and supersymmetrists? dark energy is a new one for me. i thought all energy was dark unless it got some photons going and was able to waver between infrared and ultraviolet. and dark matter is more of an astrophysical concept, no? we've never gotten any in hand, have we?
we can "see" photons because they interact with matter... we cannot "see" the dark matter or energy... actually we do through the interaction with gravity. In the next generation of ground and space based telescopes a "tomograph" of the universe will be made showing the distribution of dark matter and dark energy... we already see the filaments of dark matter, it attracted the small amounts of our type of matter and caused the nucleation of stars, etc.. which became luminous at some point...
the dark energy is something else which we are puzzled over, though we seem to be coming into an epoch of the universe which will be dominated by this stuff, whatever it is..
As for String Theory or Supersymmetry, we await experimental confirmation of either of these interesting theoretical speculations... Supersymmetry is probably first, as the LHC, the Large Hadron Collider at CERN will be the most hopeful place to see it convincingly, if it is there... with that we will understand the dark matter much better, as it is suspected to be a consequence of supersymmetry...
For String Theory, we await some predictions that can be tested... the theory is not yet ready to bear the load of an actual physical theoretic work... beautiful, but not yet real...
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WBraun
climber
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The "Unknown"
There is no unknown.
When the cause of all causes becomes known, then everything knowable becomes known, and nothing remains unknown.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Genesis 1:1, In the a beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I agree with idea we all have personal 'experiences'. What I have a hard time with is extrapolation to any notion that we're having the same experience or that experience is rooted in either anthropomorphic gods or some sort of [shared] universality. And I utterly fail to understand how anyone considers such [emotional] projections onto the unknown as anything but individual speculation or some form of groupthink. I've had enough 'alt.experiences' of a variety of kinds to understand what experiencing the unknown can be like, but what I've never been inclined towards is projecting unsubstantiated speculation onto any of it as 'fact'.
What would be a projection for you, not having trained your mind in meditation, isn't necessarily a projection for someone who has walked the path and replicated the experiences of mystics. There are roadmaps to experiences of God and at a certain stage, like when we learn to climb, we can see for ourselves, within ourselves, and observe in other people as well. For someone with practical faith, they will not try to "Prove" God to you, since you should have the free will to look for yourself and would never see until you were ready.
People on this thread assume experience is all made up. They are like tourists at the base of El Cap who assume the cliff can't be climbed. Doesn't make it true.
PEace
Karl
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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You can't believe everything you read go-B, even your mom knows that.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan -- "The main point is that none of them have a complete picture."
That's pure speculation and a false assumption.
This would mean that you know the "complete picture" since that would be the reference.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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What is God?
Folks tend to try to understand God in terms they can understand. Many tend to visualize God as very human and somewhat like a stern boss or strict father figure. But it's obvious that any being that created a universe that takes light millions of years to traverse, and manifested the vast complexity of even this world, that being is not an easy target for human comprehension.
In fact, most of us have a huge distorted God image because when we are children, we inevitably run into a conflict with authority. Much of what a child likes best is off-limits, prohibited. And we are told that God is the ultimate authority. So we come to fear and resent God. This is the energy behind some of the determined atheism in this thread, resentment of a judging, capricious, "evil" God. That's not God at all, but our fear and projections
God created everything out of his own being. If there were some separate material for God to use to make all this, it would be a type of God itself. The book of John says God created the world out of the "word." Our words are vibrating energy structured by information that originate out of ourselves. Not a bad explanation to a primitive people thousands of years ago.
But even though God is vast, transcendent, and beyond all comprehension, God is also intimate and immediate, closer than the closest. Everyone says God is in heaven. Where is that? Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within.
God is Spirit which has as its nature consciousness. Would you expect God to be without consciousness? We read that we are created in God's image. Our essential nature is then Spirit which has as its nature consciousness.
What's the last thing of yourself that you would ever sacrifice? Your awareness, of course. That's how we have an intimate link with the Being that encompasses countless beings, of which there are 6 billion of just humans on this tiny world alone. A spark of the divine is within each of us as our soul and thus, we are keeping track of our own sins and writing our own story in the book of life. Judge not, lest you be judged.
You can think of this world as the dream of God. The reason for it is not comprehensible in rational human awareness. The purpose of our existence in this world is not our pleasure and luxury. The experiences we have in life, bad and good, have the effect of refining and evolving our Spirit.
If you look at the course of your own life with openness and clarity, you might see an abstract sort of perfection in it. Everything that ever happened to you has brought you to where you are right now. What you are right now is reflected all around you as your life. Change within and your world will change.
Jesus may have been a pure expression of that divine being, but don't get hung up on one historical figure being the sole expression of divinity. Jesus was talking about his highest nature when he said he was the only way. You can't live without water, but Agua, H2O, and Pani are the same thing, and in a pinch, you can still get along with orange juice, or even cola or beer.
So "what you believe" is a lot less important than "what is in your heart."
My feeling is that God doesn't know what religion you are.
God sees directly to the heart where that totality of what you are is revealed.
I know this kind of philosophy runs counter to what many folks believe. Believing we have the only way builds religions and makes us feel superior. I respect your path whatever you think, and I'm always open to deepening my understanding, so don't worry about me. If the highest power will grace me with greater understanding, I'm always listening. "Seek and you will find" Just be open to the fact that what you find might not be what you expected.
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WBraun
climber
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I cut open the body and looked at the heart and it's just a bleeding pump of blood and chemicals and did not see any God.
The devils advocate ....
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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This thread is really interesting in many ways...
I am now convinced that Go-B is not a real person, but a rudimentary pattern matching program being tested by a student in an AI programming class. (I will continue to look for evidence that there is a real person there.)
Jan, I really appreciate a lot of your reasoning. However the idea that humans are superior to animals has been debunked so many ways (by Carl Sagan among many others) that I didn't think that idea had any real credence left anymore. There is hardly anything that humans are good at that isn't equaled or excelled by some 'animal'. It took our society a long time just to enfranchise the females of our own species! My girl friend Niki is wiser than many humans in my acquaintance and would not tolerate any such ideas of her inferiority (she's a Siberian Tiger). If you want to get people to do bad things to some class of creatures, you teach them that they are pagans or inferior or evil or don't have feelings. Our society is barbaric. The reason it is barbaric is because we do so much of that. It would be a very good idea for our society to become much more civilized.
It might be interesting to take this thread in the direction of people's personal experiences in extrasensory awareness. My initial resistance to this sort of thing has been worn down by so many dramatic instances that I can no longer maintain doubt about universal awareness.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jan, I shifted from thinking about meaning to thinking about purpose. Although they have almost the same definition, purpose seems to invite a more rational and constructive way to ponder the universe.
Karl, could you please tell us about how you have experienced God? I know words can't do the experience justice but it would be interesting to read. Although I'm skeptical and wonder if it's just a mental construct as opposed to connecting with something outside your self I allow for the possibility there is more to it. And since you have such a positive take on things I things I really like to read what you write. Do you go into deep meditation? How long does it take approx.? Do you just get some awareness of God, or do you actually have some form of communication? I realize there are thousands of web pages that probably go into this, but I like hearing from climbers who share the common love of nature and challenge as opposed to people who really focus on spiritualism and are difficult for me to relate to.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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hear-hear on the chimps. as i said before, they're "closer" to humans than they are to gorillas, and gorillas themselves are pretty damn "close" to us. this is strictly by dna typing. i think jan will agree that animal intuition is something it would be well for us all to get back in touch with. i learn something from our cat almost every day about how to grow old gracefully. she also can get a little intolerant--glad she isn't a siberian tiger.
but ed, if there really was something to this dark matter business, we'd be able to find it in our front yards, no? it's supposed to be ubiquitous. different from anti-matter, i assume, which has been produced ever so briefly at fermilab.
gobee a bot? who would've guessed. picks up on mention of its name, then pukes out a scriptural reference, reflecting the slavish lack of intelligence of the concordance index database, itself no doubt generated by computer. once in awhile the gobe injects a little genuinely human interaction, but i suppose it's just the programming student popping by between classes.
i had fun testing bots a few years ago. let's see what we get here.
gobee! go-B. jesus saves. in the beginning. for ever and ever. christians, fundamentalists, satan, good, evil, heaven, hell. add what comes to mind, TC.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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...not having trained your mind in meditation...
That would be an assumption on your part.
...and replicated the experiences of mystics.
People on this thread assume experience is all made up...
It's not peoples' experiences I doubt or question - it's the extrapolated conclusions, claims, and 'facts' they make to explain those experiences I have a problem with. And hell, it's fairly telling that the cessation of human sacrifice at various altars dedicated to such experiences is a recent construct.
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WBraun
climber
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There is hardly anything that humans are good at that isn't equaled or excelled by some 'animal'.
Now that is some real bunk statement ......
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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I thought you'd like that, Werner
And yeah, I know that Chimpanzees Inc is not competitive in the microchip market (...yet...)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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healyje, human sacrifice takes place daily at altars dedicated for that purpose in catholic churches.
this is not a matter to be taken lightly on this thread. joseph campbell, a master mythologist, likes to point out the similarities between portrayals of the christian sacrifice and the mayan. among the maya, it was usually "enemies"--from the town down the road--who were selected for the "honor" of sacrifice, but on occasion it could also be the captain of the winning team in their football game.
the god comes down from above at the sacred moment of tearing out the beating heart, supreme essence of the mystery of human life. you will find special devotions among catholics to the sacred heart of jesus, his body opened like a door, so similar to what the mayans did.
with jesus, it all becomes saccharine, like saying "i love you" with a hallmark card. but the myth is there, alive and quite well, intrinsic in the fascination with death, from the roman coliseum to the modern snuff flick. behind that is the enigma of being alive and curiosity about what lies beyond. "meditate" your ass off--you'll never really get there until you get there.
the need for sacrifice also derives from the natural world, the competitive "jungle", good for the health of any species. the ultimate expression of human sacrificial competition is war, also alive and well.
don't think we're "above" any of this, or that "civilization" has "progressed" beyond it.
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jstan
climber
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This thread has become a cornucopia of ideas. Hundreds of fresh takes; too many to deal with, though Joe makes a superb attempt.
And thank you Ed for putting quotes around "Meaningless". The symbols that make up chinese text have meanings that depend upon context. The same seems true in our language, particularly for discussions such as this. I'll make a try to illuminate "meaning" relative to the experience of wandering alone in the wilderness.
Why is everyone here putting so much effort into typing and thinking? Because not to do so IS walking alone in the wilderness. Our ideas become firmer and we are able to express them better as a result of trying to express them to others of our specie.
This has to be one consequence of our decision, or the need, to become a pack animal. Possibly a predator on the tree shrew started us on the path toward becoming a climbing pack animal.
We debate on ST about climbing and other things because doing so allows us better to understand and grasp even our own ideas. If you cannot explain something you don't understand it. If you can explain something it has more meaning to you.
Thinking alone in the wilderness is not our preferred mode.
That may even be a big reason why we are here on ST.
I'll say only three more things and then shut up.
1. If the above is true, then these debates are not a contest to see who wins.
They are a cooperative effort. Your response allows me to hold my own thoughts in a better way.
They are an exchange.
2. Gary Brown is perhaps the most positive person I have ever known. It could be a dead heat between Gary and Rgold. I think I will never see anything to equal the WOPstop incident with Dennis Memet. But there is something I need always to keep reminding myself. Each of us thinks surrounded by our own personally created environment. Gary and Rich always think in a positive environment. Go-B thinks in the environment created by Go-B.
And I cannot know precisely what any of those environments really are . I have only my perception by which to go.
3. When each of us faces a choice we go the way we "prefer."
That statement is a tautology, and in a way the word is thus defined.
We have incredible potential.
And have so far yet to go.
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WBraun
climber
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"Thinking alone in the wilderness is not our preferred mode."
Yes.
Thinking alone in the wilderness is false renunciation.
"If the above is true, then these debates are not a contest to see who wins."
Are people trying to win here?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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but ed, if there really was something to this dark matter business, we'd be able to find it in our front yards, no? it's supposed to be ubiquitous. different from anti-matter, i assume, which has been produced ever so briefly at fermilab.
it infuses everything... but it does not interact with the matter we are made of except through the exceptionally weak gravitational interaction. So people are using detection techniques with a very high sensitivity searching for signs of this matter.
It may not have been produced at Fermilab (or anyplace else) simply because the coupling to the stuff we fling at each other is so so small. But having a hypothesis of what it might be, "axion like particles" or "weakly interacting massive particles" provides a way for us to design experiments to look at this matter...
...we know it is there because of the distribution of our matter in the universe, and the total mass of the universe, and we know what fraction of the universe it comprises by our modern theories of cosmologies, which are the result of a series of very beautiful astrophysical observations.
So while I expect both Largo and Karl to state with high dudgeon that modern physics sounds even farther out than the most mystical of mystical systems... we have a way of testing these far out ideas... and modifying our thinking based on empirically obtained information.
You will read someday, probably soon, that the stuff that makes up the dark matter of the universe has been found... and it will open up yet another frontier for us to study.
The new cosmology, by the way, has us as less than 4% of all the matter in the universe... dark matter is 22% and dark energy 74%... what we are made of is a "trace element" in this universe.
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WBraun
climber
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"we have a way of testing these far out ideas."
This is called "the indirect method".
Then there is the direct method ....
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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glad to hear dark matter is still in theoryville--we haven't nailed it down, but it's an explanation for things observed, mostly through astronomy.
but--dark matter and antimatter--two different critters, right?
let's get that nailed down before we go on to dark energy.
one of the great pains-in-the-ass in science is the way everyone extrapolates almost immediately after the smallest of discoveries, telling us how it relates to the end of the world and the precariousness of existence--not just our existence, but any existence whatsoever. i wish they'd slow it down a bit--they've gotten egg on their face before.
and another pain is the use of language. i expect "dark energy" refers to unaccounted-for energy in the vein of "dark", unaccounted-for matter. i wish they'd wait until something gets discovered and confirmed before they start using it as something real that they assume everyone understands.
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WBraun
climber
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Real antimatter must be entirely antimaterial.
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jstan
climber
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Werner:
You have generated two new "words".
"Real antimatter."
"Real antimaterial"
You need to tell us what you mean.
The antimatter of which Dirac wrote
P. A. M. Dirac (1928). "The Quantum Theory of the Electron". Proceedings of the Royal Society of London: Series A 117 (778): 610–624. JSTOR 94981
has all of the attributes of its matter conjugate AND the propensity to be annihilated on sufficiently close contact with matter.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD! GOD IS GOOD!
Nah, what's up Doc!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Fet wrote
"Karl, could you please tell us about how you have experienced God? I know words can't do the experience justice but it would be interesting to read. Although I'm skeptical and wonder if it's just a mental construct as opposed to connecting with something outside your self I allow for the possibility there is more to it. And since you have such a positive take on things I things I really like to read what you write. Do you go into deep meditation? How long does it take approx.? Do you just get some awareness of God, or do you actually have some form of communication? I realize there are thousands of web pages that probably go into this, but I like hearing from climbers who share the common love of nature and challenge as opposed to people who really focus on spiritualism and are difficult for me to relate to.
The thing is, it isn't a mental construct and the way it is experienced is outside of descriptions we have available to us. Everything we describe is of this world and the Spirit is another dimension entirely, beyond the conceiving power of the mind and analogous experiences in our regular life. An adult could attempt to describe an orgasm to a 5 year old, but could they understand? and everybody's orgasm doesn't feel the same to them. This is further complicated by the fact that even experiences of divine light and grace are secondarily translated and processed through the mind, which has the opportunity to distort and filter it according to its limitations and expectations. It's completely possible for people to have genuine spiritual experiences and translate them into archaic dogmas, because our minds are the tip of the icebergs of ourselves.
and further, any description creates a structure in your mind with which to build an expectation of what such experience is like and there a pre-built structure of doubt if you then have a subsequent experience that "might" have been suggested by somebody's experience. My faith was created and vastly increased when I had strong experiences that I didn't know were possible and then, studying the mystical literature that I didn't know existed, my experiences were described and validated.
It took me a long time to learn to meditate. The mind has life long patterns of associative thinking. It's worth it though because God or no God, happiness is within and control of our mind is the gateway to peace and happiness. I can say this, we are all experiencing our Souls each moment. Some of the meditation and mindfulness process is to create the space between our witness Being and the self-image and concepts that we identify with and think ourselves to be. Once our whole identity is witnessed to be an illusory story, a film of our own imagination and memory, it's possible to recognize the subtle center of being that we have always been, and its presence and illumination can be allowed to inhabit us more fully.
This is worth noting. Those who are serious about doubting the existence of God are still stuck with unquestioned identifications regarding your self image. Who are you? What is your nature? Are your ideas about yourself true? How can you check? Are your actions and ideas the blind product of an amalgamation of experience that brought you to this point? Isn't the mystery of Life and yourself worth questioning?
I sympathize with those who resent God and see the folly of religion's actions throughout the ages. Our mind's projected image of God and the misuse of religion are real and sad subjects, exploited throughout our history. But just like science being guilty of giving us the tools for our own destruction and hell, the faults of religion belong to our dense state on this planet and not the fault of Dark Matter, the True Spirit, or any of the other things just out of reach in our current state of affairs.
Peace
Karl
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Those who are serious about doubting the existence of God are still stuck with unquestioned identifications regarding your self image. Who are you? What is your nature? Are your ideas about yourself true? How can you check? Are your actions and ideas the blind product of an amalgamation of experience that brought you to this point? Isn't the mystery of Life and yourself worth questioning?
That is a pretty lame excuse for believing in God. If you're going to believe, do it because you really truly think there is a God, not because you have questions that don't have answers.
Dave
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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antimatter cooked up at CERN played a major role in angels and demons. gotta keep that stuff in the proper incubator or it's master disaster.
was gobee masturbating up there?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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That does not compute! lol
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I wrote
Those who are serious about doubting the existence of God are still stuck with unquestioned identifications regarding your self image. Who are you? What is your nature? Are your ideas about yourself true? How can you check? Are your actions and ideas the blind product of an amalgamation of experience that brought you to this point? Isn't the mystery of Life and yourself worth questioning?
Dave wrote
That is a pretty lame excuse for believing in God. If you're going to believe, do it because you really truly think there is a God, not because you have questions that don't have answers.
Dave
When did I suggest that my quote demanded you believe in God? I'm just saying there's a lot of smug folks out there who don't question themselves nor their existence under the copout excuse that the God beliefs they are aware of are lame and foolish. I'm saying the mystery of ourselves demands an investigation. Investigate rather than react, maybe you'll find God, maybe it will be something else.
Note: I don't give a crap whether you believe in God or not and I don't think God does either. Still, there is Life itself to navigate and it's mysteries. If you're happy getting gradually old enjoying whatever pleasure living in your present state gives you, have at it. No problem, no complain from me.
The unexamined mind and life, that's more what I would call Lame.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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The minute God is mentioned ...
They freak out and say ....
Oh God !!!!
:-)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Angels and Demons was pretty weak on the science stuff...
the big deal about antimatter was Dirac's deduction of it in a relativistic quantum mechanics...
the other interesting aspect regarding antimatter is that it doesn't seem to be around, that is, we live in a universe that is comprised of matter. So there must be a mechanism that breaks the symmetry between matter and anti-matter, perhaps the axion (mentioned above) provides that mechanism (it was why it "was created" by Peccei and Quinn). It makes the axion explanation for dark matter appealing.
The dark energy exists, it is responsible for the fact that the Hubble constant appears to have changed from the early epoch to now... the dark energy is pushing the universe apart... we can see that and measure it, so it is real, it's density is about 1e-29 g/cm^3. But we don't know what that energy is... there are basically two ideas: it is the "cosmological constant" allowed by general relativity and constant in time, or a dynamical effect called "quintessence" which can change with time. Knowing what we know about particle physics, the values for this dark energy are much smaller than we think they should be .
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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But, that's kinda cool, too.
Nature(not you, Nature) does as it will, or must.
And keeps throwin' us curves. Curves, man.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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dc, Read the Bible, just say'n!
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jstan
climber
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1e-120 if I remember correctly. But I don't remember correctly sometimes.
Now as to reading the bible, when I was ten or so I thought that I should at least take a look at the bible since so many people seemed interested in it.
You know I think I got only halfway through all the begetting. The only sense I could make out of it was the people who wrote it must really have thought it was important to have some kind of pecking order. And it really went against how I viewed things as a ten year old to say that a pecking order is more important than a lot of other things. "Important" by any metric with which I was familiar as ten year old.
I also quit because the book was so thick I could not be sure it would not mess with my brain if I kept going for a couple thousand pages.
And I just didn't have the time.
I had a lot of things I wanted to get done.
We all have to make decisions.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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oh sure.... skully.... I don't pay attention to this thread for 2000 posts and then you start talking about me.
how was I knott suppose to know?
goD told me, after all....
and by the way... my cut fastball is tough to hit too!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Could you offer similar references? Or do I have to have the experience myself first?
Knowing that El Cap could be climbed is different than the experience of climbing it. This experience is far different than knowing about it.
So there are obviously tons of books from the world's mystical traditions and from modern practitioners. In most cases, you still have to separate the wisdom from cultural and traditional elements that come along in the package.
But nothing you can read will take you there. An intellectual affirmation is just the waiting room for experience and falls short.
Folks believe all kinds of stuff. Those beliefs disappear when they fall asleep at night or are occupied by even daily life. What we believe is over-rated. Learn to observe your mind and experience. Break the mind's habit of thinking about your imaginary self all the time and stringing one association to another. Everything will change and it will matter not what you believe
Peace
Karl
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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My faith was created and vastly increased when I had strong experiences that I didn't know were possible and then, studying the mystical literature that I didn't know existed, my experiences were described and validated.
This is also what I've been saying all along. I started out with no religious background and then, in a story reminiscent of the Buddha, I saw other people's suffering and asked why?
In my case, it happened while working on a foreign aid project in a dirt poor Hindu village in Nepal. Thirty miles away, the Sherpas lived in extremely difficult circumstances yet produced a food surplus and lived with great joy, their Buddhist religion permeating their life in a wonderful way. The middle hills Hindu village by contrast, featured 70% of the children with malnutrition and a woman I knew starved to death during one of my absences from the village. Crafty high caste men accused women of witchcraft when their husbands were gone and stole their land. A beautiful 16 year old girl became a double amputee when her husband's family let her feet literally rot off with gangrene.People were so illiterate they couldn't figure out the change if one egg cost 1.25 rupees. A handful of high caste landlords took advantage of this everyday.
Amidst all this I discovered that social science had no answers for this kind of suffering nor any answers regarding the meaning and value of human life. Science is however, very good at describing things. I produced hundreds of pages of reports documenting their misery in different ways. I even made suggestions for the next 5 year plan that were carried out, but they were a drop in the ocean compared to the need. Revolution wasn't an option with a population so weakened by malnutrition, incapacitated by illiteracy, and lacking in vision for what could be different.
I crawled back to Japan and began meditating. Since all my basic assumptions had been challenged (this was my first job after getting my Ph.D.), I was open in a way that I had not been before. I simply said to myself, I don't know if there is a God or not, but life would certainly make more sense if there was. I began meditating and the experiences began almost immediately.
I started reading mystical literature and found every experience described and explained in both Hindu and Buddhist literature. Finding similar descriptions among the Christian mystics took much more digging. The person who provided the most intelligible explanation was a great teacher named Yogananda who manages to integrate east and west and spirituality and science to my satisfaction anyway. The irony of my crisis being provoked by the backwardness and injustices created by a distorted version of Hinduism, and the answers being provided by a man born Hindu, was not lost on me. Later, reading the New Testament, Pharisees became Brahmins, Samaritans Untouchables, and it all made sense for the first time.
In the 30 years since, literacy in Nepal has risen from 6 to 40% and idealistic Brahmins have organized a revolutionary army based on Marxism. The king claiming to be an incarnation of the the Hindu god Vishnu was made an ordinary citizen and there is now freedom to change religions. Hindu Nepalis are converting in droves to either Marxism or Pentacostal Christianity. In any case, they have a new vision. The corrupt Brahmins however, are still in charge. Spirituality comes in many forms. Religion can be a help or a hindrance. My experiences continue and I know of no other explanation that makes personal sense of them than what the mystics provide.
Meanwhile, no chimpanzees were harmed or even looked down upon during these experiences.
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WBraun
climber
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"Folks believe all kinds of stuff. Those beliefs disappear when they fall asleep at night ...."
Are you sure?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Meanwhile, no chimpanzees were harmed or even looked down upon during these experiences.
well that's a relief!
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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They faced the best pitchers in the league, man.
Chimps are homerun hitters. They strike out a lot, though.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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We almost always prefer the familiar and take the easy way out.
So much easier to joke about chimpanzees than think about God!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Thank you Ed and Jan and Karl and John
You might be interested in another favorite book on my shelf. Bucke documents a series of actual experiences by various people.
As described in Wikipedia:
Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind is the title of a 1901 book by Richard Maurice Bucke. In it, Bucke developed a theory involving three stages in the development of consciousness: the simple consciousness of animals; the self-consciousness of the mass of humanity (encompassing reason, imagination, etc.); and cosmic consciousness — an emerging faculty and the next stage of human development. Bucke hypothesizes that next stage of human mental development, which he named "Cosmic Consciousness," is slowly beginning to appear but will eventually spread widely throughout all of humanity.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Ed wrote: "So while I expect both Largo and Karl to state with high dudgeon that modern physics sounds even farther out than the most mystical of mystical systems... we have a way of testing these far out ideas... and modifying our thinking based on empirically obtained information."
Actually, the entire point of having a spiritual advisor is to test and retest and keep boring into your empirical and direct experience to clarify and refine and build on it. Owing to our phenomenal ability to self-delude, the corrective words of a person a little further up the route than you are is invaluable. Probably much like physics, the science of mind is never complete but is an on going process.
One of the most interesting aspects of this is the idea popular with Sufis and Platonists that there are fundamental truths which life bears out and these are not human generated but simply are.
JL
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Then one day you wake up and you realize your in God's universe!
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GBrown
Trad climber
North Hollywood, California
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Healyje says:
"I agree with idea we all have personal 'experiences'. What I have a hard time with is extrapolation to any notion that we're having the same experience or that experience is rooted in either anthropomorphic gods or some sort of [shared] universality. And I utterly fail to understand how anyone considers such [emotional] projections onto the unknown as anything but individual speculation or some form of groupthink. I've had enough 'alt.experiences' of a variety of kinds to understand what experiencing the unknown can be like, but what I've never been inclined towards is projecting unsubstantiated speculation onto any of it as 'fact'"
I tend to line up with you on this.
Specific religions have their roots in specific individuals who existed as identifiable human beings who ended up teaching things based upon their own experiences. What these individuals communicate is influenced by their language, existing concepts and social forms. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to have any communication with their fellows and it would have no bearing on the existing world. Generally, there are remarkable occurrences involved with the individual. That individual communicates information that is considered valuable to some and they pass it on. The individual dies and you are left with information, a group of people organized in some fashion, desiring to relay the information and the future before them. Sh.. ah ... stuff happens.
Hundreds or thousands of years later the originator could possibly be crying and laughing at the same time. Buddha would certainly lauugh at being worshiped as a god. The civilizing influence of great teachers vies with the destruction and degradation evident in times and places where their symbols and banners have wreaked havoc.
The abuses fueled absolute rejection of "spiritual" elements in favor of absolute acceptance of "physical" elements to the point where a worshipful and scriptural air permeates the air around people who know little of science themselves but repeat by rote the spoutings of experts who manipulate their own "scientific" results under the influence of corporations and governments motivated by profit and a desire to control.
The crossroad where both religion and science meet in failure is life: that meeting place of spiritual and physical phenomena. Where purpose, motive, animation, choices, opinions, preferences, art, music, analysis, discovery, understanding, considerations of beauty, good, bad, "unlocking" of physical "secrets" and turning them to purposeful utilization, games, etc., etc., are manifest and where exhiliaration, shame and glumness are experienced regarding such things as rock climbing!
Freaking WOW!!!!
I say "take heart"! So what this burden of failure! Screw it! Treat people like you would like to be treated; don't treat them like you wouldn't want to be treated; if you think it's right, do it; if you think it's wrong, don't do it; ALWAYS look for lessons - add to your understanding, keep learning; learn from your successes and failures; keep your eye out for good people and good groups in any area that affects you and others; if someone or something is good, then it will prove out by a preponderance of the evidence rather than perfection (hey, this is planet Earth); if someone or something is bad, then it will prove out by a preponderance of the evidence rather than purity of evil; support good people and groups; don't support (or stomp out if necessary) assh_l_s or ass_h_l_c groups (do you want to buy a vowel?).
There's plenty of fun to be had in this universe when you mix thought and action. It's a mix. As long as it's YOUR thought that is motivating and involved in the game then YOU're having some fun and YOU can learn. To the degree that you're not apologetic about your existence you can get some f_ck_ng (do you want to buy a vowel?) fun!
I've found this to be true by experience. As John said, you judge things by comparison with other comparable things and boy have I worked the off/on button on this one! It's a real night and day button as far as enjoying life is concerned.
I started this "dissertation" somewhere and ended up here. I like it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The unexamined mind and life, that's more what I would call Lame.
To some extent I agree given we have the capacity. But I think John's comment about the power of self-delusion hits the nail on the head. Given the near countless number of gods over the course of human existence, I find any claim to 'the answer' to be the height of conceit and arrogance. And I suspect Werner, Karl, and Largo here would even have a hard time agreeing on the particulars of their version of their gods or 'universality'.
But all three of you, but especially Karl and Werner, make very specific claims - Werner of absolute knowledge of a sentient authority and Karl of an a universality beyond which is accessed via meditative experiences; Largo claims there are mentors which know 'a path'. I have no doubt you each have experiences on which you base your 'claims', but what makes you in any way certain they aren't simply convenient projections and / or delusions in turn?
Again, I'm all for an examined life. What I'm not down for is the projection of incredibly subjective 'answers' as facts onto the results of the experiences of that examination. Again, what makes any of your experiences, answers and gods any more valid than Roman, Egyptian or Mayan experiences, answers and gods?
P.S. GBrown, I agree morality and kindness need no god or universality to exist nor for us to understand them.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Yes, Largo, I have read scientific studies demonstrating that perceptions can be very funny stuff. Our minds seem to be obsessed with filling in the blanks when there is no empirical data from our senses. People tend to agree fairly well on ordinary perceptions, but disagree wildly in perceiving unusual events.
This can lead to accusations of hallucinations or insanity or lies; but it's not necessarily so simple. There are some real technical aspects about how our mind builds a mental map of reality based upon a combination of sensory input and mental analysis.
Once a person builds a mental map of what they saw happening in some particular fashion, they will hold onto that concept as reality, even in the face of seriously conflicting evidence; and will even swear to it in court.
Cops investigating traffic accidents learn about this problem first hand. A random collection of ordinarily reliable observers will each dub in a different perception of what happened in an accident where cars are skidding about in unusual motions. Then an analysis of the skid marks on the ground shows that the observer reports were just not correct.
Excellent scientists tend to be especially careful about this sort of thing.
The interesting thing about knowing this is trying to figure out how much that we take for granted as reality is actually not based on real data. Trained expert observers such as flight controllers, astronomers, search trackers, or good forensic investigators try to be very careful about jumping to conclusions regarding what they are observing. It's a good idea to hold off as long as possible while gathering data before reaching conclusions.
As a search tracker I have several times been in the position of having to show the local sheriff a great deal of tracking data on the ground to convince him that his original perceptions of a case had him jumping to an incorrect conclusion. One time in particular, it made the difference between an accidental death and a clever murder.
Some of this gets to be really funny for astronauts in a space environment where the rules have changed. For example, it turns out our minds are obsessed with automatically assigning up and down to our localized world, even in zero G conditions.
A crew member on the space station will go into a long compartment and have an unevaluated perception that they are going head down into a long tunnel. Then after working on something for a while they will glance over their shoulder and have the perception that they are in the top of a tall tower looking down!
A similar thing happens when a crew member comes out of a compartment into one of the nodes, where as many as six compartments come together. There is a tendency to be completely disoriented and have to stop and read a bunch of signs around the hatches to decide which hatch was the one they intended to go into next. If you look at pictures inside the station you will see these navigational signs all around the hatches.
This can get pretty dangerous on space walks around the large complex of the station as it changes orientation going around the earth every 90 minutes. Imagine if El Cap was doing that as you climb it.
Charlie Precourt has about as much space walk experience as anyone alive. Yet he told us how on his last spacewalk he popped his head out of the airlock hatch and had to cling firmly to a rail for about five minutes to get his bearings and overcome his sense of vertigo.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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JHealy wrote
Given the near countless number of gods over the course of human existence, I find any claim to 'the answer' to be the height of conceit and arrogance. And I suspect Werner, Karl, and Largo here would even have a hard time agreeing on the particulars of their version of their gods or 'universality'.
The fact that humans struggle to make God comprehensible in this dimension doesn't mean that some inexpressible experience of God isn't possible. Even then, our minds can easily distort and add false interpretations to those experiences. Then there are other misunderstandings: India has thousands of Gods and many of those Gods have a thousand names, but the vast majority of Indians will tell you they all ultimately arise from One ultimate being.
But all three of you, but especially Karl and Werner, make very specific claims - Werner of absolute knowledge of a sentient authority and Karl of an a universality beyond which is accessed via meditative experiences; Largo claims there are mentors which know 'a path'. I have no doubt you each have experiences on which you base your 'claims', but what makes you in any way certain they aren't simply convenient projections and / or delusions in turn?
I guarantee you that, believer or non-believer, we are swimming in Delusions and projections and that includes you. Getting control of your mind is also an attempt to short circuit this self-deluding propensity but nobody is totally immune.
Again, I'm all for an examined life. What I'm not down for is the projection of incredibly subjective 'answers' as facts onto the results of the experiences of that examination. Again, what makes any of your experiences, answers and gods any more valid than Roman, Egyptian or Mayan experiences, answers and gods?
You might call your Dad by his name, or Daddy, or Pops, or anything, and you might consider him as a stern family leader, or a best friend, or as a God. As a kid, you might totally misunderstand your Dad's motives, his sex life, his relation to finances, and so many more important aspects of your Dad. And this would be true for Roman Dad's, Mayan Dad's and more. But the Dad still exists and still has a connection and relationship with all those kids. We endure unavoidable limitations in our understanding and knowledge as kids and guess what, we still do as adults. We hate to admit it.
This is not the place you're going to get certain exact spiritual knowledge or know you had it, even if you did. That doesn't make ignoring the issue a wise course either.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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This is not the place you're going to get certain exact spiritual knowledge or know you had it, even if you did. That doesn't make ignoring the issue a wise course either.
Seems to me that men create the gods and universalities, not the other way around. Maybe it's a religious variant of the anthropic principle. I believe believe the brain is a phenomenal 'engine' driving both our mind and body and further believe we more or less 'skim the surface' of the boundaries of 'mindfulness' and consciousness - that our consciousness is capable of escaping our every day 'us'. But beyond that I neither ascribe or assign any formed / formlessness universality to any aspect of my existence or consciousness, whether the run-of-the-mill me or a state detached from my overwhelming daily investment in 'me'.
What is the problem with being a spiritual spirit of one?
What is the problem with being the beginning and end of your consciousness and existence?
Why does there need to be any form of universality for us to exist as kind, considered, considerate, peaceful, responsible, moral, and productive humans?
Also, I consider the majority of animals to live unexamined and unconsidered lives given the limits of most of their brains, consciousness, and minds, BUT they live 'perfect' and entirely non-spiritual lives from my perspective.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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No man is an island! We wouldn't be here if not for everything around us!
Who's your daddy? Most every parent wants their child to become a self sufficiant adult?
Psalm 32:8, I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go;
I will counsel you with my eye upon you.
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WBraun
climber
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healyje
All those problems you list are yours not mine ......
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jstan
climber
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All were working late last night!
After reading all the good stuff it occurs to me there are two distinct facets to what an individual does.
1. Actions we impose on the universe.
2. Actions we perform upon ourselves
In the first I go with Gary. The golden rule is a great first principle. Some of Christ's thoughts on how we should treat others seem very good. The idea of not returning hatred when given hatred, is challenging but deserves serious thought. As Gandhi showed it helps keep down the momentum that tends to build up in human interactions. Momentum that, ultimately, leads nowhere. Just look at Dr. F's thread to see how little progress is afforded by momentum. (Were we to use that thread a little differently, I think much progress would be made.)
As to what we do internally and what we experience internally I think this is largely personal. And as long as it does not impinge upon how we treat others - it is ours to make everyhting we wish it to be.
In this thread we all are violating The Prime Directive. With knowledge aforethought we are interfering with other life forms. I think the results here have been very positive. But whenever violating that Directive one needs never to lose sight of the fact the burden of proof lies with us. In the end, we need to show the effort was well directed and the results positive.
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WBraun
climber
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"The idea of not returning hatred ..."
Then you people should stop all these slaughterhouses and all this crap about how man has dominion over animals, they have no soul and how you treat them the way you do.
Just so much hypocritical bullsh'it and self righteousness .....
Such a violent and disgusting society.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Werner: All those problems you list are yours not mine ....
They aren't problems for me, I have no problems with them at all. I hear a lot of other people here, though, who seem to have a big issue with just the idea of self-contained, self-reliable, and transient individuality.
I'm just trying to figure out why and what's so frightening about the notion.
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WBraun
climber
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You seem to always equate all this to fear.
I firmly see you have all the fear.
The liberated souls free from material contamination are the most fearless.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Largo claims there are mentors which know 'a path'. I have no doubt you each have experiences on which you base your 'claims', but what makes you in any way certain they aren't simply convenient projections and / or delusions in turn?
---
I think you might get a little turned around here thinking that spiritual mentors work differently than other mentors, or that mentors in the spiritual context are merely doing what we are doing here: exchanging ideas and experiences and beliefs. This is not how it works at all.
When I first went to Yosemite, I hardly knew what end of the rope to tie into so I got a mentor (Jim Bridwell) and quickly learned the basics and kept learning from there. We were CLIMBING, not sitting around a tent talking about climbing, what we believed climbing was all about, and if fear and exhileration and joy and El Cap and Half Dome were real things. It wasn't about projecting meaning on the experiences or making claims, but about climbing routes in a direct and efficient fashion.
True spiritual "paths" always involve a practice as real and as demanding as climbing - meditation, contemplation, or various consciousness and awareness disciplines. I've never been asked to believe in anything. Just do the exercises and go from there.
The fact is none on the spiritual discussion can really make much sense till you have done a little of the work, otherwise what you think it "is" will in fact be nothing but projections and constructs of your own conditioning. The point is to get down to the bedrock, the unborn or undifferentiated "stuff" before the projections and constructs, and the void in which consciousness itself arises. In Zen we call this "no-mind." At some time the duality between the imaginary person or "I" that is watching or having an experience and the experience itself will vanish. And "the dancer becoming the dance" is only the first step on this one. So is rapture and bliss and emotional highs and clarity and all the rest. Where doe all that "stuff" come from? Where do projections come from? That's the pay dirt right there.
JL
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Violence is God's most important product; it is the fundamental source of all existence.
Sentient beings devour sentient beings because it is their evolutionary destiny or God's will depending on your prejudice.
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WBraun
climber
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largo -- " .... till you have done a little of the work "
Yeah I've said this same thing too here and then they whine.
You have to take the leap man.
No pain no gain.
Instead it's always give me a link, read a book and then they sit there and say with a wave of the hand after doing jack nothing.
It's all bullsh'it.
Even a dog could do better ....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Where doe all that "stuff" come from?
Why does it have to come from anywhere? Why is it that what's 'under' and at the base of us need to come from anywhere external to the meat of us? Personally, I believe meat is entirely capable of generating all that undifferentiated stuff.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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I still don't know which end of the rope to tie into?
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WBraun
climber
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paul roehl -- "Violence is God's most important product; .."
You are not God. Stop trying to imitate ....
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Thanks Baba. I think perhaps you could describe your experiences but are holding back. If they were confirmed in mystic literature as you say someone can write about them. I could easily describe an orgasm to my young son. He wouldn't know what it feels like, but he would have a good idea of what it's all about. You could desribe how to climb El Cap and what it's like to a non-climber on the bridge, they wouldn't fully understand but they'd have a good idea.
I think those of us on this thread are all seekers. But I don't think those who live an unexamined life are neccesarily lame. Some people don't want or need to know more. They are perfectly happy concentrating on their day to day. There is probably a great peace in just not thinking about things that are beyond you. I think people are born with different personalities and their upbringing also has an influence, some are seekers, some are content to just be.
Jan Wrote:
I simply said to myself, I don't know if there is a God or not, but life would certainly make more sense if there was. I began meditating and the experiences began almost immediately.
I think that is a huge factor in if you believe in God. The "life would certainly make more sense if there was". I feel life makes the same sense with or without God, so perhaps I see something else where others see a personal God.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Personally, I believe meat is entirely capable of generating all that undifferentiated stuff. That's it. We're all meat beings. Or meatbags. Or meatballs.
What many don't accept, others do.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan: I don't know if there is a God or not, but life would certainly make more sense if there was.
I feel exactly the opposite. That with a [sentient] god life makes no sense whatsoever and is in the end just unimaginably cruel by conscious design. I'm flat out unwilling to accept or entertain that perspective.
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jstan
climber
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Beliefs are entirely personal. What is not personal is letting our beliefs have an effect upon others.
That's the rub. And it's a very big rub.
And it has always been a problem.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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God is realized as violent by observation not through imitation.
Take a look outside, observe the world, contemplate the cosmos and discover the continual violent and inevitable release of energy.
Look under any rock to observe the living manifestation of that violence in the form of one creature eating another sometimes in the most exquisitely cruel manner possible.
Then go home and be a vegetarian and imagine you will come closer to your God or perfection or whatever.
Foolishness.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Don't forget meatheads!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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It's interesting that this thread has given people such an opportunity to pontificate given the genesis of the word.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Going down to Supertopo,
gunna have myself a time.
Friendly Profiles every where,
humble folks without temtation.
Going down to Supertopo
gunna leave my woes behind
Posting day or night,
people shouting HOWDY NEIGHBOR!
Headin' up to Supertopo
gunna see if I can't unwind
I like craggs with big fat cracks,
I like craggs with big holds!
So come on down to Supertopo and
meet some friends O' mine!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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gobee! at last! let's git out the gee-tar and the mouthharp, son. funk and wagnalls!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Where doe all that "stuff" come from?
Why does it have to come from anywhere? Why is it that what's 'under' and at the base of us need to come from anywhere external to the meat of us? Personally, I believe meat is entirely capable of generating all that undifferentiated stuff.
-----
Of course you believe that "meat" (evolved material brain) is sourcing everything. That is the materialist point of view. But a little deeper look into your own mind and process will generally reveal greater contrasts and a play of opposites. You see this play in everything, and it's represented in all manner of art and music and so forth. Where materialists run out of road is that, while they see the opposite of high (low), light (darkness), yin (yang), masculine, et al, they can't see the opposite of material itself.
The question of why "stuff" has to "come from anywhere" is a strange one coming from a materialist, since materialism adheres to a strict causal cosmology that insists, without exception, that everything is sourced by material anteceedents in a forward unfolding, linear way, like dominoes falling.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The question of why "stuff" has to "come from anywhere" is a strange one coming from a materialist, since materialism adheres to a strict causal cosmology that insists, without exception, that everything is sourced by material anteceedents in a forward unfolding, linear way, like dominoes falling.
I suspect it is more subtle and nuanced than that... but us materialists have allowed you to define materialism... I think you've got some things wrong in this characterization, but perhaps you've consulted your "ride share" brain trust... I've struck out with them in the past.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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That is the materialist point of view.
I completely disagree.
If your material meat is capable of interacting with undifferntiated stuff, then I would posit it's capable of sourcing it just as easily as simply tapping into it. Which is more likely - a meat vessel tapping into external stuff, or a meat vessel being the source of stuff? If the meat vessel isn't the source of stuff, then how does it find and connect with and load stuff on startup; or, how does the stuff know new meat is available to connect with and how?
The question should be why does stuff have to come from anywhere else.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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1 Corinthians 15:42, So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Here's maybe a conundrum or pickle for some: What if you "believe in" evolution as a fact but you do not "believe in" evolution (i.e., the applied understanding of it) as an empowering (life) strategy for getting on in the practice of living. -A pickle perhaps heightened because of the particular circumstances or culture you're living in. Anyone on the Taco (yeah, I confess, besides me) ever wrestle with this one?
An evolutionist (i.e., believer in evolution) in one sense but a non-evolutionist in another. Is there such a circumstance? If so, what an ass-kicker. And hard to articulate in full in public and language, too.
Food for thought: (a) When in Rome, do as the Romans; (b) If you can't beat em, join em.
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jstan
climber
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"Here's maybe a conundrum or pickle for some: What if you "believe in" evolution as a fact but you do not "believe in" evolution (i.e., the applied understandiing of it) as an empowering (life) strategy for getting on in the practice of living. Anyone on the Taco (yeah, I confess, besides me) ever wrestle with this one? Perhaps heightened because of the particular circumstances or culture you're living in? "
OK. Let's suppose one has developed a method for living day to day that does not use evolution.
Then the stock market collapses and you no longer have the money to buy the car your non-evolutionary theory requires you to buy.
I think you are swimming up stream here in a really fast current.
This question may be the root of this entire thread
Just by its nature life mitigates against something we all want desperately.
Things are always changing in the real world.
We all want very desperately to have all the answers.
In the face of constant change that desire is an oxymoron.
To a real extent training in the sciences mitigates that desire. When working in the technical fields everything is all about not having an answer. Indeed not having answers is what draws people to the sciences.
People in the sciences prefer finding an answer over just having an answer.
So when someone comes up with a completely unsupported answer to something, all we can say is
oiy veh!
And I am not done yet.
We want an answer and we want it now.
When we get into a philosphical discussion no one ever says, "Well, right now, we just don't know. Maybe someday we will know. But you know.
We seem to be doing OK without the answer.
I have never seen this said,
Philosophical discussions just seem to tail off into nothingness with people muttering to themselves using words to which they alone know the meaning they are attaching.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Who do you think Jesus is?
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jstan
climber
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GoB:
What do you mean when you say "Jesus." You have not answered Ed's question.
You are all alone out there Go. We have no idea where you are.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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A nice guy who has been institutionalized, plagiarized, and manipulated since the day he died.
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jstan
climber
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But there has been so much improvement amongst us
we know for a fact, whomever he is
we won't kill him when he comes back the next time.
(Got to make sure he does not run into Pat Robertson though.)
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WBraun
climber
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How do you know you are not killing him everyday right now ......?
And life comes from life.
Dead guys just climb out of the body bags and start creating stuff.
Duh ....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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I can tell you who Jesus is: he is Osiris and Dionysus and Orpheus and Mithras and Persephone and every other deity or semi deity of a vegetation God ever devised by the human mind.
The deity must die as a sacrifice of propitiation to our own well being and salvation.
In planting cultures the notion of putting death into the ground assures crop production.
The moon, great symbol of death and resurrection, worshiped since ancient Sumer, is gone for three days each month as Christ is in the tomb for three days.
Jesus is just another metaphor of human need and fear and in him one finds the illusory warmth of reconciliation.
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WBraun
climber
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You have no proof.
And I guarantee 100% you are totally wrong.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The question of why "stuff" has to "come from anywhere" is a strange one coming from a materialist, since materialism adheres to a strict causal cosmology that insists, without exception, that everything is sourced by material anteceedents in a forward unfolding, linear way, like dominoes falling.
I suspect it is more subtle and nuanced than that... but us materialists have allowed you to define materialism... I think you've got some things wrong in this characterization, but perhaps you've consulted your "ride share" brain trust... I've struck out with them in the past.
--------
I am getting tired of trying to pin down what it is you materialists are actually claiming is so. I'm not a fundamentalist materialist so it's not my ground to defend, but it seems every time we move into hard definitions, the target moves.
It is my understanding that a materialist says that:
A. There exists only stuff and matter. Even empty, container vacuum space is a "thing."
B. Matter has no opposite. Or if it does, even non-material is quantifiable is some way.
C. Anything true is quantifiable.
Maybe not just yet, but eventually once the proper research is completed. All and everything can be explained by way of laws, and represented symbolically via numbers.
D. All reality is sourced by matter.
Everything, from notions of God to Half Dome, to the feelings you have about North Korea, to the subjecive feel of your own experience, to a Debussy nocturn, has material antecedents.
E. All the stuff of consciousness (thoughts, beliefs, evaluations, awareness itself, et al) is "produced" by the evolved, material brain by way of electro chemical mechanations.
F. Brain "products" or content is always the outcome of forward causality, meaning the process of how consciousness is materially "made" follows a linear, electro chemical sequence. That is - A leads to B leads to C, and so forth.
If we were to place the letters of the alphabet on a timeline, A = 01, and Z = 26, we theoretically could sequentially reverse any brain "product" along this timeline, ascribing a letter (say, Q) to any significant electro chemical function along the way.
Put differently, in the process of creating, say, a thought or a feeling or a belief about Baby Jesus, electro chemical process A does NOT lead to electro chemical process (ECP) Q, does not lead to ECP E, does not lead to ECP Z, does not lead to ECP M.
In short, future events cannot mechanically effect and materially "create" any "thing" in the present.
The "mechanical" process involved are extremely subtle and all kinds of counterintuitive and perhaps unchartable factors have to be incoporated to "explain" how, say, an evolved, material brain produces "God," or a battel cry or a poem, and these processes might involve strings, QM, big bangs, mud slides, chaos theory, random jive, and elbow grease.
But I gotta work now . ..
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Matter itself has no creative power.
When it is manipulated by the living energy, material things are produced.
Of course the gross mental materialists claim the dead guys we bring in body bags, suddenly later during autopsy just get back up and go back to work.
Insert huge big ass sarcastic emoticon here .......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Wbraun wrote-
"Matter itself has no creative power."
This hits the nail right on the head. This is where the two schools of thought diverge.
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WBraun
climber
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Of course the gross mental materialists claim the dead guys we bring in body bags, suddenly later during autopsy just get back up and go back to work.
Insert huge big ass sarcastic emoticon here .......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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While I suppose I am guilty of being a materialist but
at some 'point' (wink) it does seem logical that ya gotta bang a gong.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Locker wrote-
What I CAN'T understand is WHY anyone here would WANT to TAKE that DREAM away from people...
Which is why my earlier post alluded to "believing in" evolution in one sense (as factual) and not believing in it in another sense (as a life-empowering strategy for living). -Which no one really addressed, I guess it was unworthy. Oh, well.
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jstan
climber
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Largo:
I am speaking outside of my field. just know that.
Right now no one has a solid model addessing your question, "Where does everything come from."
You are looking for something that does not yet exist. Don't be frustrated. There has never in history been a better time to be excited and interested.
I have read the concept that at the time of the big bang the accummulation of mass was so huge, all of space and indeed time itself was created.
We really need to face the fact much of the way we think was conditioned when we were babies crawling around on the floor and by all of our experiences since then. Since about 1890 we have been face to face with models that predict about everything we see but do not square with our experiences. "Do not square" is an understatement. A radical understatement. The concept of "coming from somewhere" or out of something" may simply not be applicable. Those concepts come out of our experience. People have been struggling desperately for almost a century. Niels Bohr is reported to have told these people, "Shut up and calculate." And what we see in nature keeps agreeing with those calculations!
The frustration you feel is coming from you. It is the wrong response.
This is probably the most exciting it has ever been to be a human.
Stay on top of the daily newspaper reports.
The implications are staggering!
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WBraun
climber
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Believing is worthless ultimately.
There must be absolute proof and fact.
Theories are ultimately worthless too.
You'll spend lifetime after lifetime wasting your time theorizing as this called the "Indirect Method".
An intelligent person goes to another country and asks what is the most efficient and best way to get from point A to B without wasting time from those in the know there.
The idiot speculates and theorizes how to get from point A to B and wastes his valuable time.
Insert another huge ass hairy sarcastic emoticon here ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Speaking of exciting finds, the July issue of National Geographic has a great article on Ardi and all the other great fossil finds of the last 50 years from Ethiopia.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Which is why my earlier post alluded to "believing in" evolution in one sense (as factual) and not believing in it in another sense (as a life-empowering strategy for living). -Which no one really addressed
I think no one commented because we couldn't figure out what exactly you're getting at here?
Care to elaborate?
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jstan
climber
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Jan:
I was on that one right away. Look upthread.
Werner has just indicated he is an experimentalist at heart. That discussion arises among physical scientists also. There it appears as,
The only person who thinks a theory to be the correct one, is the theorist who conceived it.
The only person who thinks experimental data is incorrect is the person who took the data.
Ignorance
I once told an engineer just out of college her problem was simply that she was ignorant. i got a reaction, which was exactly what I was after.
I said," It's a word. Look it up in the dictionary. Ignorance is the state of not knowing. Do you know everything?" She allowed as she did not.
I said, "Now you are getting it. Ignorance is our stock in trade. We have always to keep in mind we are ignorant. getting out of some of the ignorance is our goal."
I might have said, "If we do not keep upper most in our mind that we are ignorant
we will act stupidly."
I did not dare go that far but..............it's true.
It is also true that far too few people realize this.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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The only person who thinks a theory to be the correct one, is the theorist who conceived it.
The only person who thinks experimental data is incorrect is the person who took the data.
jstan-
So true! When I worked as an applied anthropologist for a Swiss aid project in Nepal, they always felt my statistics were fact and my case histories were opinion. Of course the numbers came out of interviews and questionaires, themselves subjective.
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jstan
climber
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jan:
Check again. That was a placeholder you saw.
More.
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WBraun
climber
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Werner has just indicated he is an experimentalist at heart.
Trying to paint a picture that's completely false will be your own undoing.
Trying to put your thoughts into someone else will be your own undoing.
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pa
climber
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A question for the scientists:
What IS matter?
A definition , please.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Pa wrote-
"What IS matter?" It is structured energy. In the human experience, it is "structured energy" rendered sensable (e.g., touchable, visible, even colored) by the brain-mind's sensory systems.
In different terms, What are atoms? ANS Structured energy (at a micro-size relative to sizes humans are most familiarized with).
Jan wrote-
I think no one commented because we couldn't figure out what exactly you're getting at here?
Care to elaborate?
0kay, I have a family member, for example, who believes in evolution (according to science, as the way the world truly unfolded) but rejects it because the worldview it creates is so disempowering (e.g., leading to existential depression) relative to the traditional account.
So we have in him at once (a) an evolutionist (believer in evolution as a fact) and (b) an anti-evolutionist (a non-believer in evolution who doesn't want it taught since it's not as appealing and motivating as a comprehensive worldview as. for eg, the Abrahamic narrative).
In different terms, he thinks evolution is a fact (an accurate description of "what is") but thinks it's a dispiriting if not an ultimately dangerous fact.
He'd say, Sure, some people like Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins adapt to the "evolutionary model" for how the world works just fine, but they aren't the majority of humans. The majority of humans, in other words, ordinary people like Grandma, won't ever be so compelled (either by science or nature investigation) as Dawkins or Sagan so they need a more simplified model (myth or narrative) to get on in life, esp day to day.
So a related issue: How do we deal with these guys? Do we join em? Do we argue with them? What? Do we declare we should support the truth (in regard to how the world works) no matter how hard or sharp its edges in all circumstances? What if the truth of evolution disillusions Grandma? what if it hurts Grandma? Are there not sometimes "bigger concerns" in the course of living than "just" the truth?
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jstan
climber
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HFCS:
Evolution has nothing to do with the problem. It is just one symptom of something larger. Work on the problem. Not the symptom.
Edit.
A question for the scientists:
What IS matter?
A definition , please.
Can't you come up with an easier question? This is actually hard. Indeed at the most fundamental level we don't yet know. That's the answer. But we do know quite a bit.
In Isaac Newton's day matter's primary characteristic was thought to be that of occupying space. You try to push one piece of matter into another piece and it gets really difficult. The pieces resist.
Then we found something you hold in your hand actually consists of an immense number of very little pieces of something that sit there and wiggle. The amount of wiggling depends upon the temperature. That's about where Einstein first got into the fray. (He has been back a number of times.)
For a long time we also took conservation of energy, angular momentum, and momentum as important things predicting what matter will do. Left alone matter will tend to go in a "straight" line. Apply a force and both momentum and energy will change in a calculatible way. But the truth is since two pieces of matter feel a mutual force of attraction coming from who knows what source, not too many things travel in perfectly straight lines.
Then Einstein( once more) came along and said you get too much matter and straight lines aren't even what you think they are because space itself gets bent. I won't even bring up the fact that you can completely convert matter into energy, in a flash under the right conditions. So I did not tell you about that.
Now we have people working under a mountain in Switzerland accelerating protons around a circular track( operated very close to zero absolute temperature) and 27 kilometers in circumference up to energies of many teraelectron volts. i won't quote the number because hit men will come for me if I get it wrong. And....And mind you they even have two protons traveling in opposite directions colliding. That's how they get the center of mass energy up.
(So that you might know a little more. Frank Sacherer who is prominently featured in climbing guides to Yosemite did a large chunk of the work permitting this accelerator actually to hit that at which it is aimed.)
Here's a photo of a device they use to see what happens after a collision.
Look at the human sized equipment way down at the bottom. This is just the detector!
What's it all for? Calculations have led people to hope we will see a piece of matter
never before seen.
So there's your answer.
We know a lot.
We don't know everything.
But it surely is exciting!
HFCS
is a wiseass.
I'll fix his wagon.( Some day ask me for the history on this saying.)
I'll give HFCS the answer I once got after doing a system install on a computer while leaving off the help files; and then asking for help.
"No help is available."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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What does that mean, tho? I don't understand. More input please.
EDIT This post was in response to your first couple of sentences responding to my post. Then you added a lot more. Oh, well.
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pa
climber
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(Matter) is structured energy rendered sensable (eg. visible, touchable) by the brain-mind sensory systems.
So, whether it is matter or not-matter, depends on whether it is sensable?
On how sensitive the sensory system is?
Does it imply that, in the energy-matter continuum, what we call material and what we call insubstantial, depend on the receiver, the ability to sense?
In Chinese medicine, Qi is defined as:
"Matter on the verge of becoming energy,
or
Energy at the point of materializing".
"The Web That Has No Weaver" is a delicate introduction to the premises of acupuncture. Worth a look. The title itself beckons.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Locker wrote:
A couple nights back I was trying to sleep and couldn't get the idea of DEATH to leave my mind...
I KNOW it LOOMS somewhere NEAR...
I got in a slight PANIC over the thought and FEAR set in causing me to fall into a short state of situational depression...
I CAN understand WHY so many people WISH there was SOMETHING ELSE out there...
What I CAN'T understand is WHY anyone here would WANT to TAKE that DREAM away from people...
I WISH I could find some COMFORT in such a thought...
"WUD"n't it be NICE to ACTUALLY...
BELIEVE...
Sort of BEATS the idea of ROTTING...
Funny thing is, in Asian countries, where they believe in reincarnation, that idea scares them too. Having to learn language all over again, be a helpless kid and go through the whole stressful life process and then die again....They don't like that idea so much.
Great definition of Qi above. Energy and matter is a spectrum. The inbetween places are where "Magic" happens. (sort of like why meditators focus on the breath, this is the function that bridges our voluntary and autonomous consciousness)
Peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jstan wrote:
Right now no one has a solid model addessing your question, "Where does everything come from."
You are looking for something that does not yet exist. Don't be frustrated. There has never in history been a better time to be excited and interested.
--
The entire Zen tradition exists on the axiom that they Do know and experientially have realized from where all forms arise. They call it emptiness. Being an unquantifiable non-thing, and a non-it, words are only pointers.
I think what you are referring to is an explanation from the physical sciences that "proves" where all the shite comes from. Not being a physical scientist, I can't at all help out in that most fascinating investigation; but my sense of it is that a strict materialist explanation will never, ever pan out, that the opposite of material - however that might be posited I do not know - will have to be embraced for any of this to really make sense. I suspect that this opposite-of-material will be associated with infinite qualities. You hear people saying there is no such thing as infinity, that the universe is finite, that is was not sourced from "anything," it just happened, that something came from nothing.
What's more, you also hear about mathematical singularities, material theories that predict the rate of change of some quantity becoming infinite or increasing sans limit.
Then you hear people saying that we don't really understand what the two things mean (finite and infinite) - but they do.
I'm all ears...
These are exciting times indeed.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
Arguing about something is unlikely to get anyone to change their mind, particularly older folks. Your cousin sounds more hopeful. I run into similar issues when I teach freshman physical anthropology.
I address the evolution vs creation debate the first hour of the first 2 1/2 hour class and say its a completely unnecessary battle and that you don't even have to be very open minded to reconcile science and religion. Also I don't care what they believe as long as they get the class facts down on their exams.
I add that the two hangups that believers generally have with evolution concern time and meaning (yes that word again!). The time is easy to resolve when you point out that 7 days and nights is just assumed to be earth revolutions but given the size of the universe, it seems unlikely, if not blasphemous, to say that any God capable of creating it had to do so according to the rotations of our planet, especially since the book of Isaiah says that a thousand days for man is one day for God, recognizing that time depends on the viewer.
The issue of meaning and purpose is harder. I tell them that when we get to the peppered moths to see how natural selection actually works we will see that one color of moths was not nicer or more moral than the other; both got lucky and unlucky at different times, through no fault of their own. Likewise, if you want to discuss human meaning then you need to talk to philosophers and religious people, even psychologists, not biologists and for sure, when you face death, Charles Darwin is not going to be the guy on your mind.
Evolution simply means change over time with the assumption that time generally improves things. We will consider humanity's physical, cultural, social, psychological, and yes spiritual development in the class although we do it by focusing on the physical, including the physical evidence for various religious beliefs over time.When we see how different we live from how our hunting and gathering ancestors have for 99.9% of their time on earth, then we can only wonder that any of us are healthy and sane.
Later on I have a 2 1/2 hour lecture starting with the usual biological principles of natural selection and how humans have altered this process through selective mating over time. We then look at the unity of stratigraphy, embryology (I have lots of large photos of human embryos with gill slits and tails) and DNA. I talk about creating amino acids in the laboratory under the right conditions, and finding amino acids on debris from space. We look at where we are in the solar system and on one arm of our crab nebulus galaxy, how many galaxies there are, how we don't know where we are in space assuming the big bang, and how given all this, the proper attitude should simply be awe and wonder that we're here at all and humility in the face of what we don't know.
I never get anti-evolution arguments in my class and I think it's fair to say that I convert most of them to an evolutionary view. I'm also sure they still go to church afterward, though some have told me they've changed denominations to something more liberal.
Anyway, I'll bet that this would work with your cousin if you engage in a low key talk about it and don't argue. Also don't expect change after one conversation. It takes time for a person to readjust their world view.
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jstan
climber
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John:
People have the capability for saying anything. We say things all the time. But what we DO depends upon the exercise of our judgment. What things should a prudent person allow to guide their judgment? Things that work. Things that are supported by widely separated sources. Things that seem consistent with our daily experience. I have already discussed how any one of these may lead us astray. They don't all agree. Which is the ultimate challenge. It is our decision. We have to own it.
Many years ago when I was already working on a thesis renormalizable field theories were the rage. Mind you I was just an experimentalist and was not into such things. This was also before the standard model. People were making transformations of their equations so as to get rid of the most inconvenient infinities. The day is long gone when we have access to perfectly well behaved closed form expressions. And in the process of transfoming your equations you ultimately end up asking your self what the heck that means is happening in the physical world the equations are supposed to represent. This and other things are what force people to stretch their minds to try and understand how things can be understood. The results are seldom if ever like what we see everyday around us.
Now I was an experimentalist so i have not explained the process well. But it is agonizing and all our assumptions and experience are questioned and torn apart on a daily basis. The end result? Does the calculation work? Or does it not? What we do has to stand not just one test. It has to withstand every conceivable test. Many times and by any observer who cares to question.
When someone talks about dark energy or dark matter no one should go away certain. In this process there is always blood on the tracks. People are struggling to find words adequate to describe things that seem completely implausible, beyond all hope of understanding in an experiential sense, but which keep forcing themselves upon one.
We are talking about ultimate athletics. And it's a floor exercise that has gone on for sixty to eighty years.
But it moves. and it is getting stronger. Day by day.
But who am I? I was an experimentalist. But I was very lucky and got to watch the most exciting era since the day Euclid figured out how actually to prove something. Euclid was able to do what he did only because people decided to pay taxes and keep a storehouse full of grain just down the street.
And just to bring us also down to earth. That it was possible to do what we did was due in substantial measure to the petroleum reserves we found under this continent.
Where ever I am incorrect I expect to be set right.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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People believe in god because it gives them comfort to do so.
I see it in my mom all the time.
She is 94 and bedridden in a Catholic nursing home.
She has the Mass on TV being replaying in a continuous loop constantly.
She goes to Mass in her wheel chair every day, as she has for the past
75 years.
I love my mom so much, and I am really happy that she does get personal
comfort and a sense of life purpose from her religion.
People who believe do so because it gives their lives meaning, comfort,
and the belief that they will spend eternity with their loved ones.
Nothing wrong with that.
I however, have been an atheist since age five, much to my mom's chagrin.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:18am PT
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John, from my perspective you have such a black / white view built on logic which seems quite a claustrophobic, binding, and exclusive perspective to me.
I'm hoping, though, we can at least agree that somehow meat can express art - and art which is identifiably unique to a particualr piece of meat. If so, and on making an assumption that both universal stuff and independent meat exists, I would suggest it's likely to be more fruitful to talk about the linkage between the two than the origin of either because it's in the linkage that some sort of 'magic' has to occur.
The question again for me is does the new meat find the stuff or does the stuff somehow find new meat? And how, or by what mechanism, can the two work in concert as a symbiotic unit - i.e. how is it that meat can 'host' stuff?
From your strict logic around and definition of materialism I should think you would be arguing rather stridently that meat simply isn't capable of interacting with stuff at all. That you are claiming otherwise seems a bit awkward at best.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 10, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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Healyje wrote: "From your strict interpretations of materialism I should think you would be arguing rather strongly that meat simply isn't capable of interacting with stuff at all."
I wrote out what I considered to be the deal breakers for materialism: a) all is matter; b) matter sources reality - no exceptions, and anything real can be measured or (in theory) fit into a reliable numerical model; c) all consciousness and spiritual "content" is the direct product of the evolved brain; d) consciousness is a mechanically produced phenomenon with material antecedents; e) the process by which consciousness is "produced" by the brain is temporally, a linear, interconnected chain of events, starting with electro chemical stirring in the "meat" brain and ending with consciousness.
Now I keep hearing the word "strict" and "black and white" and so forth about this definition, but no one has come forth and said where they beg to differ with the above. What materialist is saying that all is NOT matter? What materialist is saying reality is not sourced by material antecendents? What materialist is saying that future events can physically influence the present, in the present? What materialist says that God and all the other baggage is not entirely generated by the meat brain?
Again, I'm all ears. If "it's not so cut and dry as all that," kindly explain where the above definitions are usurped, in what manner they are usurped, and by what process, in material terms, are we talking about.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 10, 2010 - 01:16am PT
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Dr. F wrote: "They just forgot to tell us what emptiness means, what a "not thing" means"
How many times do I have to write it out for you. You're missing the dual nature of consciousness and of life and existence. There is no yin sans yang. There is no emptiness without form, and no form without emptiness.
In Zen we say: Emptiness is form and form is emptiness - exactly. The two are inseparable.
Materialists say this in not so, matter has no opposite and there there in no emptiness, there in merely form, matter, stuff.
JL
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 10, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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Ex Nihilo
From nothing comes something, but how?
What is the nothing and how can material generate from it?
Isn't the nothing the venue of magic and miracle and God?
This seems to be the base contention with regard to materialism vs. non materialism.
But let's imagine in the next few weeks an unnamed european super machine smashes particular matter to the point of producing a particle that can both be and not be and that particle by its very nature insists on becoming something when it is nothing and the force for becoming is inherent in the particle itself the nothing that is both something and is not and we call it the God particle.
So what? Really, so what!?
Does such a discovery validate Christianity, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam, Jainism, Zoroastrianism or any "ity" or "ism" you can name. No, because each of these is only a dogma based on metaphors of human experience as a means of lessening our sense of the pain of existence.
The real mystery may very well be beyond our possible comprehension and so we have two choices: we can choose obedience to religious or mythological instincts that inform us that life is corrupt as a result of human sin, that something is wrong in our world and it needs to be corrected through repentance and denial and proper behavior as dictated by some dogmatic orthodoxy or we can grab hold of the E ticket ride we call life and celebrate every aspect of its joy and horror and realize what we are: nothing less than the very creators of God.
No one wants to destroy somebody else's comfort of belief but neither do they want to become the victim of somebody's belief.
Better a nation lose the comfort of Islam than any woman be stoned for adultery.
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pa
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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Jstan,
as definitions go, yours was a lengthy one, but I appreciate the problem and the effort you put into answering.
Slippery business matter is, despite being "solid"...on one end of the equation it is energy and formless, on the other it is mass times speed and acquires form.
So, now I ask this:
What distinguishes form from formless?
What does density mean?
Does it relate to frequency?
If I am asking too many questions, you can all tell me to shut up...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:24am PT
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Paul wrote
The real mystery may very well be beyond our possible comprehension and so we have two choices: we can choose obedience to religious or mythological instincts that inform us that life is corrupt as a result of human sin, that something is wrong in our world and it needs to be corrected through repentance and denial and proper behavior as dictated by some dogmatic orthodoxy or we can grab hold of the E ticket ride we call life and celebrate every aspect of its joy and horror and realize what we are: nothing less than the very creators of God.
But Paul, you're setting us up with a false choice here. These aren't the only alternative reactions.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2010 - 06:11am PT
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John, could you read the rest of that last post of mine and respond to those thoughts versus just the first sentence. Thanks.
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pa
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:56am PT
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Thanks for the good links, Wanda...I was aware of the info, but it helps to "tune in" again.
Might it be then, that matter is a rate of vibration?
And that differentiation between one entity/individual and another is frequency?...such that, individualism, ie. manifestation, in the material world, is caused by an arrestment, of frequency? a suspension of potentiality? an incidence of motion, space and time?
Am I straying into woo-ooh land?
Best go climb a rock for a bit...see if I get arrested.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:13am PT
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Once you get used to the idea that there is no God, the idea of an immortal soul seems infantile and selfish.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:24am PT
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Gee, eeyonkee, I wish you'd come around to this section of the fire more often. To share your thoughts. There's a lot of stuff we could talk about- tho not of gods or ghosts or religions- how about gods or ghosts or religions-related. I suspect you'd be a breath of fresh air.
re: "get used to the idea" -that's a major insight right there.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:39am PT
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Jan- Thanks for the response. But I am sad because I think you missed the point. Boohoo.
Jstan- I didn't get the "HFCS is a wiseass" comment at all. Nor an answer. Boohoo.
For the third time, I was trying to make the point that one might accept evolution on scientific grounds yet reject evolution on "spiritual therapeutic" grounds (making the case that the so-called Epic of Evolution isn't as satisfying or life-affirming or motivating as the Abrahamic narrative, aka the Bible Stories).
In this case, he would be an "evolutionist" in one sense and an "non-evolutionist" (even anti-evolutionist) in another. Thought this might be an interesting point of discussion.
Oh, well, I give up. Time to climb.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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I have doubts about any duality being part of nature
hot --- cold
wet --- dry
and so on
Good point Dingus .....
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
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Duality is not static .....
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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The universe as a whole does not support life, or anything conscious
So says the man who's been all over the universe ....
Hahahaha
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Only man would try to empty it, and with his own egotistical insecurity for the need to explain something he really knows nothing about.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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Dr. F:
How do you know its not the same as the nothing I speak of??
Prove your emptiness is something
I have doubts about any duality being part of nature
What you've set up in your mind are two mutually exclusive concepts: things, and non-things. Except they're not mutually exclusive, but rather, they co-mingle, every day, all day, forever. The play of opposites can been seen in most everything, right down to our climbing, from us trying to muscle our way up even as gravity pushes us down. That's the dance, ergo the first fundamental truth: emptiness is form and form is emptiness.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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The LogicMen cannot abide this disconnect. They must have continuous logical connection through all threads of their lives (even though that is utterly impossible). When something doesn't jive, they reject it.
no, I don't think that is true. Certainly one of the things I've learned about science after doing it my whole life is that we can't explain everything, and there are things we can explain that have unresolved difficulties concerning the explanation, especially in terms of the entire picture of a purely physically based theory of the universe.
However, it is not to say that at some point those difficulties represent an impossibility in explanation. My faith is in our ability to reason through those difficulties and come to a larger, more complete understanding. I can't prove that we will, of course.
There is no conflict with science and spiritualism in principle, but when the two are represented in cartoonish ways conflict is possible.
Spiritualism, mysticism, religion belong to a very personal domain, a subjective experience which in itself is real, but whose origin is unknown. In someways, the insistence that the origin of those experiences must be real is utterly beside the point and not very important to the experience itself. Whatever it is that creates the ability to have those experiences (which I believe to be purely physical and "mechanical") does not have to restrict what those experiences could be... or at the very least, does not rule out the possibility of having "non-physical" experience.
As Karl pointed out above, it is a whole lot more difficult to see the universe and all its complexity and mystery as "just" a physical phenomena. But there are some willing to forgo the easier path and are willing to push along a much more difficult path, a path whose end uncertainly leads to a successful end. But for what ever reason, it is a path that a few of us push into the unknown.
If you see a "rejection" of a notion, generally it is because of it's failure to a test, or many tests, at which point it has no more usefulness, it does not aid in the progress... on the other hand, there is no notion that can be proven as "true" either, but rather lives in limbo as one of many notions that are consistent with what we currently know.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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HFCS:
After I wrote a book too long for the subject you said, "Can you expand on that?"
Was a neat move so I said wiseass.
That's all. Nothing more.
On freedom:
Of course we all can imagine anything we want and regularly do. And we all can train the senses so we have any number of personal experiences. I play regularly at stopping the voice. Good fun.
As to my being constrained I think we all choose our constraints. I don't mind being constrained by an equation. Then I am free to hope I'll be able to learn something. I constrain myself when writing checks. Then I have the freedom to whistle merrily without a care in the world. I never considered claiming dirtbag freedom. Not having things I must do is too constraining.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 10, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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Been gone for a short while to the 1st Church of John Muir (the Sierras).
So, I see the question has been asked or posed what do you think GOD is?
A better question to ask would be . . .
Q: What does GOD say about himself?
Well, now I could "pontificate" endlessly like we all do, but the Good Book clearly says Who and What GOD is.
So grab your copy of the Good Book, or go borrow one from the nearest hotel/motel dresser drawer (thanks to the Gideons) and do this lesson.
Yea, you're gonna have to read. You're gonna have to write. And you're gonna have to answer some questions. It's called homework. But if you truly want to know, and I think people do considering the thread count that has been generated here, then you need to do it, and not someone for you.
So get off your lazy buttocks and learn . . .
Q: What does GOD say about himself? (Lesson 3)
http://www.clclutheran.org/lfm/lfm03.pdf
The answer has been starring you in the face for sometime. Go to the book shelf and grab the Good Book and blow off the dust and cob-webs and get started.
Learn Who GOD is, What GOD is, Where GOD is, and What purpose does GOD have for your life, and How do you get to know HIM? . . .
The trouble with many learned adults is that they seem to think that they are at least as wise as God Himself, if not wiser.
It is sooo easy that even a Cave-man can do it (or Neanderthal or Cro-magnon Man). And guess what? We are all more advanced than they were. Let your inner Neanderthal be free . . .
All Geico Cavemen Commercials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5JV0Fs_GE8
Edit:
Here, I'll make it even easier for you. Here is the KJV of the Bible free on-line:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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Ed wrote
As Karl pointed out above, it is a whole lot more difficult to see the universe and all its complexity and mystery as "just" a physical phenomena. But there are some willing to forgo the easier path and are willing to push along a much more difficult path, a path whose end uncertainly leads to a successful end. But for what ever reason, it is a path that a few of us push into the unknown.
The universe seeks to explore its a boundaries in all dimensions
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
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KJV-Psalm 7:16, His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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Go-B said: KJV-Psalm 7:16, His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.
That sure sounds a lot like KARMA to me Go-B. Too bad all the folks that believe in karma instead of Psalm 7:16 are going to spend eternity in the fires of hell....
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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LOL! Just between me and Pate, kpinwalla2 I mean, Pate and I...Go Lakers!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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Thank you Hypercrates, Power of Fate, for keeping us safe, today, we had a great time.
Thanks, Dingus, for the reply. Good points.
I just think it is time Jehovah had some competition. In the West. In the eastern religions, the people have multiple deities, multiple stories to which to turn for support, humor and good times. Perhaps the West should, too.
If our culture is "enriched" for having the personification of death (the Grim Reaper)- and I for one think it is- then it is even more enriched for having the personification of fate or controlling powers. IMHO.
Welcome, Hypercrates, to America.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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Dr. F. You miss the point. It's a symbol. It's a personification. Like the Grim Reaper. It's not to be taken literally. Or even at all if you don't want, too.
Look, I was born human. As opposed to horse or honey bee or honey badger. I had no choice in the matter. It was beyond my control. The forces in control were hypercratic powers. That's all. And if you or anyone else doesn't want to personify the hypercratic powers, don't.
In other words, hypercratic by itself simply means controlling. Controlling is a synonym. You certainly believe in powers or forces that led to your existence. Right? Or that led to some decisive moment or turning point at some time in your life that was outside your control. Right? That's all it is. Nothing more.
It's for fun, like this-
"You can be a king or a street sweeper, but everybody dances with the Grim Reaper.”
That's funny. Right? One could have fun with Hypercrates, just as well.
I mean, you get the Grim Reaper, right?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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Look, I was born human. As opposed to horse or honey bee or honey badger. I had no choice in the matter.
I'd thank God!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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"sounds like karma to me..."
When allowed to run its course, evil destroys itself...violent people become the victims of violence, liars become victims of others deceit. Sometimes God intervenes, other times, for reasons only known to Him, God allows it to continue. Remember that God will execute final justice, even if it is not in our lifetime.
All are held accountable.
Someone will have to pay the price for sin, doing good will not suffice for past evils.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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Cool.
Auggh, but your last sentence: Forces or powers are physical, right. I know you've had physics. Nothing supernatural there.
Don't read "supernatural" into it. Perhaps you've been fighting the supernaturalists too much, you need a break?
For the record, I'm no supernaturalist, there is not a supernaturalist bone in my body. M'kay?
I know you know forces or powers outside your control led to your being born, led to the Earth emerging as a planet, etc. We can agree on this. Right?
Later, bro.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
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Jesus is my Bro for pay'n the price for me!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen on ST. People with totally entrenched views try to change others opinions with paralyzingly redundant, and foolish arguments.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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WHOA!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 10, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen on ST. People with totally entrenched views try to change others opinions with paralyzingly redundant, and foolish arguments. LOL!
Hey, Donini, at least Hypercrates is an innovation. Why not use your wit and humor and whip him up into a poem or jingle for us? Show me what you got. (Use the Grim Reaper as inspiration, maybe.)
P.S. Maybe Pate could help me here, too. Where's Pate?
Please, please, Great Hypercrates,
above me, the leader, a thinly protected crack...
or,
30 feet above my pro, my belayer high on 'shrooms,
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 10, 2010 - 11:21pm PT
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Ah.....but my views are also TOTALLY entrenched and, when it comes to this subject, humor fails me.
Wittgenstein said: "Of that of which we cannot speak we must pass over in silence."
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Jul 11, 2010 - 12:18am PT
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It would be KickAss to be a Honey Badger......Don't cha think?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 11, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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Ya see all these people that come in to this thread are captivated in one way or another.
They just can't stay out.
This proves the all pervading attraction and power.
You're ALL SUCKERS ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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you are absolutely right Werner...
and donini has a bit of rightness too...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 11, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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This thread's about the journey, not the goal.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2010 - 03:16am PT
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Everyone on all sides would do well to read this shameless repost from another thread of mine.
Seriously, it applies double here, if you must read fast, just check the paragraphs before and after the break in images about the religions message and "Static"
I've been into a fascinating book recently about how our minds make decisions. It's called "How we Decide" Check it out here.
http://tinyurl.com/238fp34
Some of it totally reminds me of how we relate to each other on Supertopo. I thought I'd post a reverent section below.
Too funny. Our mind works like that believer and non-believer alike
peace
Karl
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 11, 2010 - 03:55am PT
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John, this is solid!:
"People have the capability for saying anything. We say things all the time. But what we DO depends upon the exercise of our judgment. What things should a prudent person allow to guide their judgment? Things that work. Things that are supported by widely separated sources. Things that seem consistent with our daily experience. I have already discussed how any one of these may lead us astray. They don't all agree. Which is the ultimate challenge. It is our decision. We have to own it."
And when you operate this way you keep on learning, by which I mean understanding rather than spouting the correct answers. A person who stops operating in the manner you describe has given up responsibility for their life and their due contribution to the lives around them.
A person will act foolishly when they don't really personally grasp something in terms of its (a) workability, (b) non-workability, or (c) relative workability in their lives and the lives of others. A person applying what you are talking about above will learn and cease acting foolishly. Not everybody survives the process -- and not everyone around the person survives the process. And one of the things to learn is one's ignorance and the ability to recognize that as sort of as a tangible thing. (That can be difficult because the absence of something can be easily overlooked, however, the absence of something is actually a prime diagnostic and investigative factor which a good diagnistician or investigator gets a feel for and uses.)
Socrates was dubbed the most wise and attributed it to the fact that he knew he was ignorant. (Another tip to John's point on that.)
So what's that got to do with this lengthy thread of thought?
The physical scientist has theory (thought) going out in advance of workability and uses that which is workable to avdance his theory.
The spiritual scientist has theory (thought) going out in advance of workability and uses that which is workable to advance his theory.
They may be going in different directions, but there are two common points:
Thought and workability.
What do you get out of that?
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jstan
climber
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Jul 11, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
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Gary:
Workability is determined in a "test."
Testing is the heart of the scientific process.
You have just described how to test other kinds of processes.
A very important step forward. I have not heard anyone put a word to what such testing might look like. Now it has been done.
Let's take an example, the invasion of Iraq.
Bush Sr. applied the test. He stayed out of the cities. Going in would have set in motion events and hatreds that would go on long after our interest in the whole thing had evaporated.
It would not "work."
The other Bush did not apply a test. And we have events and hatreds that will remain long after everyone has died. It did not "work."
The same test can be applied to belief systems.
Many of us hope that belief systems change our behaviors so that fewer horrible things are done. Before accepting a new belief system one can ask whether it will "work." Whether it will still work even after people have done to it, all the things people do.
And if a person is accepting a belief system for what they personally hope to get out of it, they too can ask if it will "work."
I was not aware of Socrates' statement that knowing he did not know is wisdom. I said that in another post somewhere. Here I thought I had thought that one up! Damn!
Ah, well. I suppose being 2400 years behind the times isn't the worst possibility.
And before I forget; last night we watched a DVD called "Wristcutters." Absolutely superb. Uncannily brilliant!
A take on life after death that promotes life. With one exception the after life is just like life. After death - you can't smile.
Watching it is a pleasure. Every minute of it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 11, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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An "entrenched belief" is a negative thing when... (a) it angers God Jehovah, (b) it angers the Pope or his Cardinals, (c) it runs contrary to the Holy Bible, (d) it is counterproductive to good practices in the "practice" of living, (e) it is factually incorrect leading to poorer performance in the "practice" of living.
My answers are d and e.
I have many "entrenched beliefs," they were hard-won over many decades of education, science education and general life education, and I'm proud of them.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 11, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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Pate, with the same inevitable result.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 11, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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Pate, excellent post.
So we're all in agreement.
Regarding trenched beliefs, I was merely reinforcing the obvious: some entrenched beliefs (aka deeply held beliefs) are good ones. Like the one that the earth is round or the one that the Japanese (not the Egyptians) bombed Pearl Harbor in 1941.
The reason I return time and again to this thread and post is a compound reason: (1) I am a climber, only this avartar isn't, (2) I like supertopo.com, even Werner, (3) I work as a developer in a "psr-related" area or field (e.g., under the inspiration of guys like Carl Sagan who once upon a time suggested it's time we got started thinking about one or two new institutions reflective of and responsive to modern age understanding, (4) in deference to game theory, etc., it is always good to know what the other side (or sides) is thinking.
So I hope that clarifies a bit why I attend here. Love your posts, man.
-psr: philosophy, science, religion
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 11, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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Pate- that phrase, "confederacy of dunces", that's a good one, is that yours? I'll have to google it, see how original or popular it is. I'll repeat it a few times to work it into my working vocabulary. Love it. Along with "inertia of ignorance."
EDIT Turns out, not so original, actually a novel title, but hey, thanks for enriching my vocabulary.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 11, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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The same test can be applied to belief systems.
Many of us hope that belief systems change our behaviors so that fewer horrible things are done. Before accepting a new belief system one can ask whether it will "work." Whether it will still work even after people have done to it, all the things people do.
And if a person is accepting a belief system for what they personally hope to get out of it, they too can ask if it will "work."
Jstan, I hope other participants appreciate the tenor of your posts, as I do. At times, I don't agree with your conclusions....but I doubt many, here, would question your sincerity.
It's difficult, when discussion turns to name calling and bottle throwing, not presuming one must throw a few, also, to participate. I've rarely seen you attempting to demonize or spray others with glass. You deserve great credit keeping conversation at an abstract.... academic.....and cordial level.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
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I think that GBrown, and others, badly misrepresent science when they make an argument that what science does is like what a "spiritualist" does... they are not the same thing.
However, there is a great appeal to going with what you feel, what you experience, without analyzing those experiences or feelings... just going with it, as if the personal authority somehow elevates it, in it's superficial likeness, to what it is presumed that scientists do...
It is a part of an American Tradition, anti-intellectualism, which is quite healthy in the country today, as pointed out in a piece in the NYTimes today...
Egghead Alert at Confirmation Hearings
Quoted from the article:
“All the people who get onto the Supreme Court are people of high intelligence,” Berman, now the president of the Duberstein Group lobbying firm in Washington, told me. “They really know more about the law and cases than anyone else in the room, and people on the dais are judging them.” Often the nominees are “trying to prove themselves. Often it comes across as you saying you’re better than we are.”
Any hint of an I’m-better-than-you sentiment, especially if that sense of superiority is based on intellect or fancy speech or having attended an Ivy League school, can go over very badly in America today, where “elite” has gone from being a word of admirationto one of insult. A tendency toward anti-intellectualism isn’t new in our country, of course; in his 1962 classic, “Anti-Intellectualism in American Life,” Richard Hofstadter wrote of our culture’s longtime devaluation of the head in favor of the heart and a historic tendency to prefer people and phenomena — educational approaches, types of religious experience — motivated by passion or gut rather than intellect or reason. “Intellect is pitted against feeling, on the ground that it is somehow inconsistent with warm emotion,” he wrote. “It is pitted against character, because it is widely believed that intellect stands for mere cleverness, which transmutes easily into the sly or the diabolical. It is pitted against practicality, since theory is held to be opposed to practice, and the ‘purely’ theoretical mind is so much disesteemed. It is pitted against democracy, since intellect is felt to be a form of distinction that defies egalitarianism.”
Hofstadter added, “Intellect has been dissevered from its coordinate place among the human virtues and assigned the position of a special kind of vice.”
The so called "theory" of science which is so often misrepresented as "not real" or certainly "not a practical reality" is popularly treated as "just so much talk." Often not to be taken seriously. Of course, the actual definition is a bit more complex and more rigorous, see, e.g.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory
Main Entry: the·o·ry
Pronunciation: \ˈthē-ə-rē, ˈthir-ē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural the·o·ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theōria, from theōrein
Date: 1592
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : speculation
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art [music theory]
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action [her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn] b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances —often used in the phrase in theory [in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all]
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena [the wave theory of light]
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : conjecture c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject [theory of equations]
synonyms see hypothesis
As a "scientific theory" there is an expectation that the theory predicts the outcome of an experiment or an observation quantitatively and that the basis of the prediction is rigorous regarding the logic used to deduce the prediction. Newton's apple falling to the earth and the moon circling in orbit are governed by the same theory, that gravity is universal and responsible for both of these phenomena, and demonstrated in a rigorous way leading to testable outcomes.
I don't know what a spiritual theory is, nor a spiritual experiment. Spiritual "observations" are feelings, often subjective, and stridently not quantitative. Put in such a setting the theories utterly fail to predict the outcome of experiment.
As mentioned in the above NYTimes article, there is much more stock put into those "feelings" than into the intellectual process of analysis. No doubt that people trust their feelings, it is a major accomplishment in the training of a scientist to learn not to trust them.
Feynman pointed out the pitfalls of "cargo cult science" a variety of human activity which appropriates the trappings of the scientific process, but is not science. You can read what he had to say here:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
It is a characteristic Feynman thought, with lots of cautions, and even for physics... but the major idea is harder to actually do than it sounds:
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself--and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that.
I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you are maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen."
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jstan
climber
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Jul 11, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Feynman is often put forward, as Ed has done because he was both unbelievably good and at the same time, human. Normally we consider those two traits to be exclusionary. A wonderful story published after his passing, possibly in "Surely You Are Joking, Mr. Feynman?"
Students often work in groups posing each other problems to solve. In one group at Princeton. a group of which Feynman was a member, the following problem came up and everyone was apparently stumped.
Pinwheel sprinkler heads spin in one direction when you are watering the lawn. Do they spin in the opposite direction if you put it under water and pull water into the nozzles? The next morning custodial staff found one of the physics building labs flooded. The perpetrator was never apprehended. But there was much suspicion.
A couple of trash barrels and a hose were all that was needed for the experiment. Put the sprinkler head in one barrel full of water ten feet above another trash can to which the hose ran. The perpetrator obviously was short
one trash can.
The experimenter presumably learned a lesson of value to his later work at Los Alamos.
Don't do an experiment before you are ready.
At Los Alamos, the problem would have been rather more severe than it was at Princeton..
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 11, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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Gobee, you started your own creationists thread just to copy and past bible
passages on.
So, STICK to THAT thread to put your bible stuff on.
In case you still have not noticed, people here think and discuss issues.
You have proved over and over that you are NOT capable of doing so.
What is your point with the relentless bible crap, do you really believe
someone here is going to be converted to bible bliss like you are?
Six thousand year old earth, my ass.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 11, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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When we have a problem the first step is logically to analyze the problem and so determine what factors are causing the problem to exist. Go-B is failing to use logic.
He "believes" everyone thinks just like himself and everyone "believes" exactly what he "believes". So it is he feels scripture will shepherd us, finally, into the light; given only that we be exposed to it.
A weakness to which unquestioning "belief", inevitably, falls victim.
We, unfortunately, are here to witness the failure.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 11, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?);
Because, Psalm 103:12, as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.
Well if God said as far as the north is from the south, they turn into each other! ( logic?)
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 11, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Sean Cochrane just posted this on Facebook: 'life is a waterfall, we're one in the river and one again after the fall'
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 11, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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Yes
You're all aboard sailing the ship without a rudder in the sea of nescience .....
The material world is real but temporary.
Even a dog can understand that.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 11, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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I thought it was up a creek without a paddle?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 11, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
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I don't have a "my version" but creation is definitely not like your version.
I got here just like you ..... :-)
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 11, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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But Jesus is good enuff!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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You're just upside down and you can't stop it now ....
Urdhva-mulam
and ... Catastrophism
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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The materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter.
It is not for them .....
Beyond the senses, beyond the mind, and beyond the intelligence, the soul is there.
Thus .... those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists.
They will not understand anything spiritual ........
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 12, 2010 - 03:33am PT
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Whether or not go-B tends to post scripture in place of his own words, his post of "Rules from God for 2010" show me that he extracts valuable things and reflects them in his life. That makes me smile and think, "go-B you're cool."
Ed -- I coined the term "spiritual scientists" to encompass individuals in pursuit of knowledge of non-physical existence, functions, abilities, etc., which includes questions about "ultimates." Why should that be objectionable? Are you under the impression that the moment an intelligent and analytical person turns in this direction that they are incapable of applying intelligence, analysis and test to the "spiritual/non-physical" field? If you absolutely believe that there is no such a field, that might explain your reaction. It's late so I can't take the time to back up in this thread to see if I can figure out what I may have missed that would answer this question for me, so I'd appreciate your letting me know about that. Thanks.
(I don't really know what "spiritualists" do other than have seances (spelling?), read your palms or connect you to the dearly departed for a buck.)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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Yes "spiritual scientists"
I said this for years, and the materialists keep taking the word scientist as theirs exclusively.
This is just plain rascaldom ....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 12, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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it's not objectionable, but it is not science, or anything like science...
first and foremost, it is not reproducible, in fact, the singular nature of the experiences is almost a necessary attribute of a "spiritual experience." So often people bring up examples of knowing something before it happens, then it happens, and they conclude that they foresaw the experience.
unfortunately there is no way of knowing precisely if this isn't just some random coincidence, the actual "foresight" is seldom precisely stated and recorded, there is only a memory, secondly, we don't know how many times we have unsubstantiated "foresight," we see something that doesn't happen... thus we cannot determine the rate of random coincidence.
However, most people professing a deeper meaning to these experiences will reject any analysis of them. Not only that, but the inability to reproduce them becomes a feature... similarly, miracles are singular phenomena not reproducible by the very nature of their occurrence, they are individual acts by some higher authority...
Reproducing subjective "states of mind" is possible and documented, the consequence of using various types of drugs, the entering of a meditative state, etc... but we have physiological understanding of these states, and do not interpret, on a scientific level, any deeper significance to these states, they are the reaction of the "mechanical" brain to the stimulus, and the experience is a result of this reaction.
We hear, time and again, that the spiritual/mystical/religious experience is "personal," which I agree with, but I also think that this relegates these experiences to the individuals thoughts, not to some physical reality... these thoughts need not be realizable, the thoughts themselves are real. Just because you can think something doesn't make that thing real, nor does it imply that there must be some expanded reality in which the thing could be real...
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 12, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
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"Wise Men Still Seek Him . . ."
Let's see, of the founding Fathers of Modern Science, how many sought out GOD?
Copernicus, Tycho Brahe/Johann Kepler, Galileo, Sir Isaac Newton, the list can go on and on . . .
Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John [Paperback] Isaac Newton (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Observations-Upon-Prophecies-Daniel-Apocalypse/dp/1449599699/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3E6WC5ZCI13FO&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
Yes, one of the most famous Founding Fathers of Modern Science, Sir Isaac Newton, who by an early age had already done so much: 3 Laws of Motion, Invention of Calculas, his Universal Law of Gravity, Optics and Light, significant development of the Modern Scientific Method, the Reflective Telescope, the list goes on and on . . .
He was a true believer in GOD and Jesus Christ. Sought out Bible Code, sought out the Trinity, sought out the prophecy of the Future and came to the realization and his best estimate for the end of our dispensation of time would be 2060 AD.
Yes, Wise Men Still Seek after GOD.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 12, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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Let's see, of the founding Fathers of Modern Science, how many sought out GOD? Copernicus, Tycho Brahe/Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Sir Isaac Newton, the list can go on and on . . .
Klimmer's got about as much sense in this area as he's got in the area of electrical power, electronics. Sad. Truly he shouldn't be allowed around kids in any teaching capacity where high standards in education and erudition are respected.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 12, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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Hey CornSugar,
Prove me wrong.
I'll be waiting for a long, long time. But please get after it. You might learn something.
Edit:
Here I'll even help you in your quest . . .
Men of Science, Men of GOD: Great Scientists Who Believed the Bible
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/handle-buy-box/ref=dp_start-bbf_1_glance
Oh, and by the way, you still don't have a grasp on the Constitution and Bill of Rights. I suggest you read it and learn it. You will benefit greatly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights
Further Edit:
I'm an electronics engineer. Professional. Everyone of his posts on an electrical power thread were bullsh#t. Bits of truth (culled from Wikipedia) peppered with outlandish out of this world bullsh#t. He missed his true calling which was to work for the National Enquirer tabloid.
Classic. You really make me laugh HFCS. Truth = BS?
What a public melt down.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 12, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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I'm an electronics engineer. Professional. Every one of his posts on an electrical power thread was bullsh#t. Bits of truth (culled from Wikipedia, etc.) peppered with outlandish out of this world bullsh#t, irrelevant bullsh#t. Truly, the man missed his true calling which was to work for the National Enquirer tabloid. Or spin department of a shameless corporation.
Easy to extrapolate from a cold, hard, fact-based thread (the electrical thread) to the other more "complicated" threads (bible code, 9/11 conspiracy, god, etc) to conclude how chock-full of bullsh#t, nutzo, his posts are. -A pathetic waste of time.
Oh, well, such is the internet.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 12, 2010 - 01:33pm PT
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Klimmer
his best estimate for the end of our dispensation of time would be 2060 AD.
this was not an estimate of when it would happen, it was a lower limit... Newton didn't believe in interpreting the Bible that way, which is why he did the calculation, to show that the people in his time were making idiotic statements... if he were around today, he'd be similarly moved to show that extracting those exact dates from the Bible are absurd...
"This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail."- I. Newton
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jstan
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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In Newton's day the church held considerable sway over English secular affairs and Newton's professorship at Cambridge would have subjected him to that influence.
Unlike the advanced state of the church today, acknowleging as it does the absolutely essential importance of separation of church and state, in that day the church busied itself forcefully in nearly all issues, public and private.
We have found a bit of research published out of Cambridge University and funded by the Research Council of Canada. It is excerpted below.
An observation before we get to the excerpt:
It is wonderful to believe in certainty.
Unfortunately, in this world, certainty can be found only in minds
that find uncertainty
troublesome.
The report:
http://www.isaac-newton.org/heretic.pdf
Isaac Newton, heretic : the strategies of a
Nicodemite*
S T E P H E N D. S N O B E L E N
Department of History and Philosophy of Science, University of Cambridge, Free School Lane, Cambridge
CB2 3RH.
A lady asked the famous Lord Shaftesbury what religion he was of. He answered the religion of wise men. She asked, what was that ? He answered, wise men never tell.
Diary of Viscount Percival (1730), i, 113
N E W T O N A S H E R E T I C
Isaac Newton was a heretic. But like Nicodemus, the secret disciple of Jesus, he never made a public declaration of his private faith – which the orthodox would have deemed extremely radical. He hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs.
His one-time follower William Whiston attributed his policy of silence to simple, human fear and there must be some truth in this. Every day as a public figure (Lucasian Professor, Warden – then Master – of the Mint, President of the Royal Society) and as the figurehead of British natural philosophy, Newton must have felt the tension of outwardly conforming to the Anglican Church, while inwardly denying much of its faith and practice. He was restricted by heresy laws, religious tests and the formidable opposition of public opinion.
Heretics were seen as religiously subversive, socially dangerous and even morally debased.
Moreover, the positions he enjoyed were dependent on public manifestations of religious and social orderliness. Sir Isaac had a lot to lose. Yet he knew the scriptural injunctions against hiding one’s light under a bushel. Newton the believer was thus faced with the need to develop a modus vivendi whereby he could work within legal and social structures while fulfilling the command to shine in a dark world.
This paper recovers and assesses his strategies for reconciling these conflicting dynamics and, in so doing, will shed light on both the nature of Newton’s faith and his agenda for natural philosophy.
As this study attempts to reconstruct Newton’s private and public religious worlds, it has been necessary to do three things. First, I have demanded more of Newton’s manuscripts by expanding the range of theological issues normally considered and re- contextualizing his beliefs against the backdrop of contemporary radical theologies. I also show that the religious ideals expressed in his manuscripts often match his actions.
Second, I have made cautious use of the surviving oral tradition, personal written accounts and evidence of rumour-mongering. Much of this material is used here for the first time and its value in fleshing out Newton’s religious crises and entanglements will become apparent below. Finally, I have employed a sociology of heresy as an explanatory tool for Newton’s actions.
Taken together, these dynamics help reveal why Newton in public differed so much from Newton in private. While the vicissitudes of time and the nature of such dealings have rendered Newton’s heretical private life obscure and largely invisible, the evidence presented in this paper will allow us to draw back the curtain a little further on the heterodox conversaziones, clandestine networks, private manuscripts, coded writing and orthodox simulation that comprised the strategies of a Nicodemite…………………..
Research was made possible through a Social
Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada Doctoral Fellowship, a Queen Elizabeth II British Columbia Centennial Scholarship and the British Council.
*There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews : the same came to Jesus by night ...
John 3 : 1–2
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dfrost7
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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JDF,
Ravi, as C.S. Lewis, was an atheist, prior to coming to faith, in Jesus
Christ. If you want to read a book, very worth your time, "Mere Christianity", by C.S. Lewis, will answer some of these questions.
Ravi is speaking, in very basic terms, of the reason many of us have come to faith in God. For every believer, you are looking at a once non-believer. Not something we 'grew up' with. We made a cognitive choice. A well considered choice.
Here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgJmsK2s0uI&feature=related
For me, the problem of science, is that it gathers together data after the fact and makes decisions/conclusions based on a tiny, tiny fraction of things there are to know. That is, what we do know, regarding the universe, could be recorded on the head of a pin. Most important questions are still unanswered by science. Science requires a monolithic faith to fill in all the blanks. It is still after-the-fact. With what little we know, that is not theory, we can't project or duplicate created from uncreated.
I love the discussions you and others bring to the forum. Though there are comments that dismiss, it is sometimes, because the answer, that there is a God, requires something. It is profoundly scary to consider the existence of an actual, living GOD.
It is interesting, the atheistis I know, who have come to faith, are convinced of these things beyond most people.
Yes, scientists believe. It's just turning your head to miss that. Even if you're not a person of faith, you run into them every day. I do.
For this reason, that if there is a living GOD, if there is good and evil, this requires something of every individual on earth. It is why people who say they don't believe, still need to adopt a philosophy, of some sort. The need to explain the unexplained still gnaws.
It's weird, most of my closest friends are atheists, or cynics. This is, sometimes, the first thing you must come to terms with. Which might you be?
Regardless, atheists who come to faith, are amazing. They have dealt with and asked the HARD questions. Most people are too chicken to even ask. For this, I have great respect.
Edit/p.s.
No, I am not a right-winger. No, no, no.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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"For me, the problem of science, is that it gathers together data after the fact and makes decisions/conclusions based on a tiny, tiny fraction of things there are to know. That is, what we do know, regarding the universe, could be recorded on the head of a pin. Most important questions are still unanswered by science. Science requires a monolithic faith to fill in all the blanks. It is still after-the-fact. With what little we know, that is not theory, we can't project or duplicate created from uncreated."
Interesting. May I ask. What might "before the fact" data look like?
Data regarding an event in the future?
And
"Science requires a monolithic faith to fill in all the blanks."
Here we are using "faith" to mean acceptance of an absolute truth absent confirmation.
How do you use the word?
If there is one thing, just one thing science does not do it is "fill in all the blanks". Indeed it does not "fill" irrevocably, any blanks at all.
Every model we have for every natural phenomenon came about by improving older models.
Our understanding is growing.
Nothing is "filled in".
Ever
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 12, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
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Ed wrote: "Reproducing subjective "states of mind" is possible and documented, the consequence of using various types of drugs, the entering of a meditative state, etc... but we have physiological understanding of these states, and do not interpret, on a scientific level, any deeper significance to these states, they are the reaction of the "mechanical" brain to the stimulus, and the experience is a result of this reaction."
I believe that so long as you're focused on "states of mind," subjective experience, feelings, beliefs, and so forth, every so-called "spiritual" encounter will be relegated to quantifiable "stuff" that indeed is mechanically produced by the evolved "meat" brain. But as Karl pointed out, to believe that this is the whole shooting match is to bet against yourself.
JL
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 12, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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Ed,
I can agree with you.
In the study of the End Times, Eschatology, people from nearly day one since prophecies have fore-told the end of time, have thought that the end is immanently upon us. Newton was proving the fact that certain things have to occur before the End Time draws near. First A, then B, then C etc. before Z occurs.
And those who are very versed in Eschatology today, know this to be very true. Jesus said (paraphrasing) "No man can know the hour or the day," but he didn't say we couldn't know the general period of time, just not specifically. He asked us to watch and be ready. Jesus compared our ability to look at the sky (atmospheric conditions) and being able to predict the weather fairly accurately; like-wise we should be able to look at the signs of the time and know the prophecies intimately so we will not be fooled and will be ready.
One of the most gifted men I know today in the study of Eschatology, is Tim McHyde, "Escape All These Things." I don't agree with him on everything, I'm a Theistic Evolutionist, but he knows Bible Prophecy very, very well. He is turning a lot of heads in Christendom -- the Christian Community. He is a true man of GOD.
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/planet-x-nibiru-wormwood.htm
Newton was very devout in his personal faith. He wrote a great deal about GOD, faith, the Bible, as they have now recently discovered. True he hid this often. But then again he didn't disclose his scientific discoveries until he was pressed to do so either. Newton was a very private man.
Jstan,
Yes, he even held off publishing the book I mentioned that you can now purchase, until after his death. Pretty smart of him to do so.
DFrost7,
Thanks. Didn't know much about Ravi Zacharias. Thanks for sharing that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravi_Zacharias
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jstan
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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John:
I very much doubt Ed "believes that is the whole shooting match."
You are speaking for Ed in that sentence by implication. Can't do that.
I rather expect he has not seen any good data saying there is something else.
But that is just an expectation. I can't speak for Ed either.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 12, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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Did you know you could cut the optic nerve, stimulate it with electricity (e.g., 4ms "single shot" pulses at 5V) and see flashes of light? or cut the auditory nerve, stimulate it with these same pulses and hear crackles and pops? Pretty telling. Pretty supportive, too. For brain as mind machine. For brain as information processor. For brain as body controller.
If there ever comes a day in American culture when these juicy facts are ever common knowledge, known by 15 out of 20 people instead of 1 out of 20 people, it would signify a new era in thinking about ourselves, our nature, our mental lives.
Sure would like to live long enough to see it.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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Actually a fascinating subject. Everyone has seem the exercises with sentences having an extra "the". We don't even see it. Google may not be the first to base decisions on what is expected because of past history.
The brain does fill in blanks in images and quite a lot is known about that. Distributed image processing is also done. Some reduction of data occurs on the focal plane, the retina and further processing is already done before the image gets to the higher brain functions. That way we can throw a spear as soon as motion is detected and without taking time to make a decision. Very fast processing when motion is seen.
Edit:
Not specifically. But send me a link.
Looking for your link I came across Mary Newsome in neuropsychology. How things like brain damage can affect decision making. Incredible new frontiers everywhere you look!
I would plead that this is pretty common on ST.
But I won't.
But you can still send me the link.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 12, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
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Are you referring to the the experiments of Baylor and Newsome?
Anybody catch the piece on CBS Sunday morning this last weekend on the artist who rendered facial portraits out of push pins? Realistic portraits (seen from, say, 20' away) made from just four colors: red, blue, yellow, black. From these four, the brain produces all the colors, including tan, brown, white.
Same with the dots of a color tv monitor, of course, also Impressionist paintings. The "mind machine" is truly astonishing. Someday we will know how the brain does it, and the people of this age, of a different attitude, will think it cool- cool phenomenon, cool knowledge.
EDIT
jstan- I was playin'. Read that first sentence again. SLOWLY.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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And I know a LOT more Atheists who saw the light of rational intelligence and "converted" from being Christians when they finally put aside their childhood fears.
YOU believe simply because it comforts you to do so.
Go ahead and do so, but leave your preaching to yourself.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 12, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
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Just spent three days of glorious climbing at Lover's Leap: sunlight...bird song...clean granite...rushing water...wind in trees...aesthetic climbing...conversations with friends...joy in being alive...
(arrived home and revisited this thread to realize that all weekend i didn't have even a single thought about the purpose of life, god, oil spills, Christ, death, bible, good and evil, global problems...)
...does that mean my head was in the sand??
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
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"Someday we will know how the brain does it"
Someday?
It's already been known for billions of years.
Use the direct method instead ....
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 12, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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dfrost- "not something we 'grew up' with"
To support this...
About five years ago the Billy Graham Assoc. published the results of an ongoing poll that was initiated in the first quarter of the last century @1925, that came up with this statistic(among others): Among children raised in the church from youth, 90% never return to church after the age of 18!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 12, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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Jstan wrote:
John:
I very much doubt Ed "believes that is the whole shooting match."
You are speaking for Ed in that sentence by implication. Can't do that.
I rather expect he has not seen any good data saying there is something else.
-
I think we've sort of beat this into the ground but here goes any way.
The problem with the "data" approach you recommend is that while this works wonderfully for quantifiable "stuff," it won't take you beyond it. (In fact it won't even take you to into qalia, or the most fundamental aspect of human existence). That's not to say you cannot go beyond the quantifiable, but so long as your awareness is locked onto a "state" or a feeling, you're still in sensate terrain.
Kant and many others would insist you cannot experience the ding an sich, or the-thing-as-such, that all you can experience are subjective states. Many of the greatest minds in history have believed as much, so you have some very erudite company.
JL
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 12, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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Norton!
Regarding your "LOT more ATHEIST" converts...
It is a RELATIONSHIP Norton, as strong as any that exists in the material world...even stronger. They may have had a very strong head knowledge of Jesus Christ, but they did not have a personal/spiritual knowledge/relationship of Him.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 12, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
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http://www.oneplace.com/player/thru-the-bible-with-j-vernon-mcgee/
Welcome to Thru the Bible
Thru the Bible is a 30-minute Bible study radio program that takes the listener through the entire Bible in just 5 years, going back and forth between the Old and New Testaments. This Bible study program has been aired on radio stations in the U.S. since 1967, and is now being aired in over 200 countries around the globe.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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Trip7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is indeed about a "relationship".
A relationship with logic, reason, and unfettered intellect.
A relationship that does NOT include members of the flat earth society.
Or people who insist the word of god in the bible includes implores men
to rape their wives, beat their children, or hold humans into slavery.
ALL of which are advocated by the god you INSIST wrote the bible.
So, some 90% of children "left" their church by the age of 18.
Interesting statistic.
Care to speculate WHY?
You first.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 12, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
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"WHY?"
Well, like i said, it is about a personal relationship based on faith.
Like all relationships, it begins with an introduction. Do you believe He actually exists? Some do some don't. But for those who do believe, there is one more step to take, they must recognize the need of His personal forgiveness and trusting Him to take over their lives. This is what Jesus explained to Nicodemus..."You must be born again!"
This is something that each person must do individually. People like Franklin Graham(son of Billy Graham)have attested to this. He became a Christian at about twenty-five, after years of "rebelling".
For some people it is a matter of pride "I have been a good person." "I have been going to church since I was born." "The Pastor was caught cheating on his wife, I have never done that."...etc.
Some people have an incredible "head knowledge" of God and Scripture, profoundly so. They may become Sunday school teachers, deacons, and even pastors of congregations large and small. But...
There are MANY church's that operate on good works etc. Preach a social gospel...but not the risen Christ.
And some kids simply know that they need to be "born again" but just want to 'sow some wild oats', and sadly, never get around to it.
There are many reasons.
But I do know this, He gives to each a measure of faith "as God has alloted to each a measure of faith." Romans 12:3
"And He has set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end." Ecclesiastes 3:11
And He has written the Ten Commandments on our hearts/conscious.
And He convicts each of us of sin/breaking those Commandments...we are all guilty. "For all have sinned and fall short..."
There are many reasons why Norton, my father was very bitter, as a matter of fact hated his father who sent him out into the world to fend for himself at a very young age(fourteenth birthday)...a cruel birthday present. And he had much difficulty embracing a loving Heavenly Father.
I am not called to explain all the short comings of the "church" on earth, or the inadequacys and downfalls of a fallen race.
But I am called to share the good news of a risen redeemer named Jesus Christ.
EDIT: "How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, AND FEW ARE THOSE WHO FIND IT."...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 12, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
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Dr. F wrote-
"Your thoughts in your head don't count in the real world, if they contradict reality." Playing the devil's advocate, some might say they would "count" even if they contradicted reality. -If they helped the person to get on with the practice of living.
Hence the crux or pickle: (a) In the pursuit of truth versus (b) in the pursuit of "better practices" in the practice of living.
What's your pleasure?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 12, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
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Psalm 12
To the Chief Musician. On an eight-stringed harp. A Psalm of David.
1 Help, LORD, for the godly man ceases!
For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
2 They speak idly everyone with his neighbor;
With flattering lips and a double heart they speak.
3 May the LORD cut off all flattering lips,
And the tongue that speaks proud things,
4 Who have said,
“With our tongue we will prevail;
Our lips are our own;
Who is lord over us?”
5 “For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy,
Now I will arise,” says the LORD;
“I will set him in the safety for which he yearns.”
6 The words of the LORD are pure words,
Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
Purified seven times.
7 You shall keep them, O LORD,
You shall preserve them from this generation forever.
8 The wicked prowl on every side,
When vileness is exalted among the sons of men.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 12, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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some might say they would "count" even if they contradicted reality
You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
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dfrost7
climber
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Jul 12, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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Where did HowweirdDean go? He was usually good for this conversation.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 12, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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For those of you who love to cite the "Holy Book. "Take your only son- yes, Isaac, whom you love so much- and go to the land of Moriah, sacrifice him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will point out to you." That's for you mom and dads out there.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 12, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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It's disingenuous for people to constantly cite bible passages that only suit their purpose, talk about taking things out of context. For those who would like to see the other side, google "evil bible." Sure it's also taking things out of context but from a different perspective.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 12, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
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Dr F. wrote: "Your thoughts in your head don't count in the real world, if they contradict reality."
The entire field of psychology and much of philosophy would beg to differ with you on that one, Craig. People's heads are totally filled with all kinds of crazy and nagative or self-defeating thoughts and beliefs. In fact changing one's attitudes (though not strictly a cognitive procedure) can have spectacular results - good and bad - on one's real life.
BTW, Craig made the FFA of this route (w/ me and Mo). Who can name it:
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 12, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
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About five years ago the Billy Graham Assoc. published the results of an ongoing poll that was initiated in the first quarter of the last century @1925, that came up with this statistic(among others): Among children raised in the church from youth, 90% never return to church after the age of 18!
That 1925 statistic, if valid, seem startling to me in light of recent statistics presented by the Pew Research Center that only 16.1 percent in the U.S. claim no religious affiliation and just 1.6 million Americans claim to be atheist or agnostic.
Religious demographer, Eric Kaufmann, predicts the “no religious affiliation”group should top out at about 17 percent between the years 2030 to 2040, claiming “Nones” may be their own worst enemy because they have low fertility rates and thus trend older. The Non-Religious Identification Survey (NRIS) by the Center for Inquiry seemed to suggest the same conclusion according to Luke Galen, an associate professor at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids, Mich., wrting in CFI's magazine, Free Inquiry.August/Sept 2009.
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/Profiles_of_the_Godless_FI_AugSept_Vol_29_No_5_pps_41-45.pdf
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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BEHOLD, for THIS is the WORD of God.
If it says it in the bible, then GOD said it.
Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
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Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 12, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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Jennie!
Perhaps I was not very clear in regards to the "poll"!
The poll was ongoing since 1925(yearly)!
I do not recall if it was of all Christian denominations(I believe so)or just Fundimentalist/Evangelical(possibly).
But the results were disturbing at best, as I stated above.
And that was that 90% did not return to church after the age of 18!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 12, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
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TripL7, some would say "encouraging" rather than "disturbing."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 12, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
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No doubt they would, I would expect as much. The point being made is that a false premise is being pushed here in regards that we "grew up" with this ingrained in us therefore we believe, yada yada, blah blah blah!
Not so, donini!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 13, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Gotta love all this great family values stuff, from the pentateuch/old testament particularly. Murder, mayhem, rape, ethnic cleansing - you name it. No wonder followers of those cults find it fascinating. More than anything you'd get on reality TV.
Surely it's time we had a discussion of solipsism. I can't believe I'm so creative as to imagine all of you, but there you are.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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I should have thought of this earlier, just let Largo and jstan write my stuff for me... genius!
Alas, I am back after spending too much time tracking down info on the WSJ editorial.
What do I believe? Well, contrary to the representations of my colleagues here, I do believe there are things we don't know and can't describe.
John's "nothing" the great unknown, the vast sea of whatever laying out there... perhaps, but the funny thing about a thing that isn't a thing is you can't say much about it. You are not even sure you experience it because you are not sure what it is...
It is often said that there is an infinite amount of the unknown out there, it is a funny statement because we don't know precisely anything about the unknown, by construction. It could be vast, it could also be small... maybe we're about to know everything there is to know about both the known and the unknown, how could you tell?
I have been a scientist for a long time, but I have not neglected to learn about spiritualism and mysticism and religion... there is the assumption by those who practice in those areas that because I reject them I could not have studied them correctly, or deeply, or genuinely. It is possible that I have done all that, and I just can't find the answers I'm interested in along those particular lines... perhaps it works for others... but I am only slightly offended by the presumption that I failed to correctly learn those disciplines. I say slightly offended because I feel the same way about people talking as if they know something about science who I believe never really studied it to understanding.
So, where are we? "Nothing" it is a trivial thing, really, if you say it is everything that is not a "thing." It is an idea with not much intellectual depth because by its very definition we cannot know about it, and so it represents all that is unknown (the amount of which is also not known) as well as all the things that we know are not things, but can be described...
...however, because these things are apart of the unknown, we can't know them...
I ask, not being a wise ass, SO WHAT? Does studying "Nothing" lead to any greater knowledge and/or understanding? How could it?
Newton famously wrote:
"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
But he used the word (at least as quoted in this history) "undiscovered." And so it is not a "great ocean of truth" that "lay unknowable before me."
It is not nothing... though it is not yet known.
Knowledge expands into the domain of the unknowable... there is a universe hiding in the clumsiness of our exquisite measuring devices, hiding in the random noise of our detectors... beyond our current ability to extend our perception that much farther.
Is that nothing?
The quantum nature of the universe forces us to a probabilistic view, and the quanta break up the familiar continuity of everything, energy, momentum, space, time... what lies in between the quanta?
Is that nothing?
Believe or not, thinking about how to do science, at least for a little bit, helps you decide how you might go about solving a particular problem in science... so perhaps we could think of a way to use "nothing" to help. I've thought about it, long before this STForum was even possible... the fact that I'm proceeding along what John has called an demonstrated intellectual dead end guaranteed to make no progress is by choice.
If John can make progress understanding the universe through "nothing," more power to him... I'll take the "thing." My suspicion is we're interested in completely different questions...
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jul 13, 2010 - 03:01am PT
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Hey Ed, welcome back.
Just a thought...why won't some, including you I'm assuming, put a concerted effort into studying the Bible with all diligence? It could even be done in private so as to not to affect what others might think of another. Why not, what does one have to lose?
..."We in NASA were often asked what the real reason was for the amazing string of successes we had with our Apollo flights to the Moon. I think the only honest answer we could give was that we tried to never overlook anything." - Wernher Von Braun
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jul 13, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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Wernher Von Braun,
"Many men who are intelligent and of good faith say they cannot visualize a Designer. Well, can a physicist visualize an electron? The electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects that we use it to illuminate our cities, guide our airlines through the night skies and take the most accurate measurements. What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer on the ground that they cannot conceive Him? I am afraid that, although they really do not understand the electron either, they are ready to accept it because they managed to produce a rather clumsy mechanical model of it borrowed from rather limited experience in other fields, but they would not know how to begin building a model of God."
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 13, 2010 - 03:13am PT
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Ed - Thanks for the reply. I get what you are saying.
First, what I have interjected was motivated the significant polarization in this thread. I don't come at this from a belief system into which I was inculcated early on.
The specifics of a couple of my own "experiences" that I have mentioned included:
7 or 8 years old; family dinner table; good cheer and rapid conversational banter around the table with people chiming win with random comments and exclamations; mom, dad, sister, grandmother and myself; I'm feeling content and relaxed; for the space of about 25 seconds I anticipate by about 2-1/2 seconds the exact words and sound effects that are to be said or made by whom. I note this phenomonon (something not previously experienced) with some detached, amused curiosity. This is a short space of time but time it on a clock and with the speed of the conversational inputs around me the phenomenon was marked.
About 35 years old; sitting in a chair relaxing with my eyes closed and becoming aware that I am looking at something; I see a smooth surface with lots and lots of little "bumps" on it; the little bumps are noticeable because they are highlighted by light from above and slighly in shadow on the lower side; the light has a particular yellowish color; there is a specific, sharply defined dark spot of specific shape which mars the surface. I note this with some curiosity as to what this is for something around 15 seconds and then the clear perception fades to nothing other than the diffuse light one sees when one's eyes are closed in a room lit with light from windows and some light bulbs. I open my eyes and note that the only thing in my "line of vision" is the wall some 15 feet away; I get up and go over to the wall and examine the area that was right across from what would have been my line of vision should my eyes have been open. Upon close visual inspection (6 to 8 inches), I see the myriad tiny bumps resulting from that particular paint job; I see them highlighted by the wall lamp set some 3 feet above with the yellowish cast of the standard incandescent bulb; I note a tiny chip in the paint of the exact shape of the dark spot I examined with my eyes closed from 15 feet away. The chip in the paint is some 1/16th inch in it's largest dimension.
From neither of these "experiences" did I receive any message from on high or launch into any pervading sense of "spirituality". They were "matter of fact" experiences to me because they both involved perceptions which were followed in close sequential time by confirmation by normal sensory perception which I continuously used before and after the perception that arguably violated the standard sensory channels. The sensory channels "violated" were working before, during and after the occurences. There was no missing time, or lapse of other perceptions, simply the augmention of another perception. Neither of these experiences seemed at all extraordinary, they simply occurred. I would say that the common denominator was a condition that could be described as that of relaxed contentment. Looking back at these particular experences, I would also add that there was a concomitant lack of any sense of threat or concern about the environment around me. (I'd say that is simply stating the other side of the coin.)
I don't consider these particular things remarkable. They were mundane; they had no prophetic value, etc., etc. However, they are among the things that inform my understanding of myself and the world around me. That information does not, to me, in any way nullify the existence of this physical world or the sciences, etc., or commit me to that which I do not personally understand by way of personal experience rather than "belief" or "faith".
I consider myself a philosopher than a religionist or transcendtialist or spiritualist, etc., in the sense that a philosopher is a "lover of knowledge" and, to me, knowledge reflects in workability in the "real" world. And to me, knowledge is intimately connected with the personal integrity of what one knows for oneself by one's own experience - and - one's continuing pursuit of it - and - one's willingness to alter one's understanding based on experience rather than solidifying a particular understanding to the point where experience becomes skewed to suit that "understanding".
This viewpoint could "come down on" either "side" of the "debate" that this ongoing thread represents. I entered into this thread with the question, "how many people believe they are spiritual beings, whether they believe in God or not?" I have known a physicist who converted to Catholicism and believed he had an eternal sould. I have known "believers" who believed they had no individual spiritual identity and "ashes to ashes, dust to dust". It's quite a hodge podge when it comes to individuals and how they interpret stuff, whether or a "physical" or "spirutual" bent.
Ok, I'm rambling on now and it's getting late again. Thank you for your reply. I hope this clarifies to some degree why I put things the way I did.
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 13, 2010 - 03:27am PT
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Ed - After making my post, I just read your post above. Makin' me smile. Yer coool as shit! (That is nicely meant.)
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jul 13, 2010 - 03:32am PT
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Ed,
Your last reminds me of "Does a tree make a sound when it falls in a forest with nobody in earshot of it?"
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 03:42am PT
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you know, what I really find interesting about this thread?
After so many posts no one seems to have the information to end the debate...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 13, 2010 - 05:02am PT
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I have been a scientist for a long time, but I have not neglected to learn about spiritualism and mysticism and religion... there is the assumption by those who practice in those areas that because I reject them I could not have studied them correctly, or deeply, or genuinely. It is possible that I have done all that, and I just can't find the answers I'm interested in along those particular lines... perhaps it works for others... but I am only slightly offended by the presumption that I failed to correctly learn those disciplines. I say slightly offended because I feel the same way about people talking as if they know something about science who I believe never really studied it to understanding.
I can only offer my own experience per answering this paragraph. Most of us find it helpful to remember that our minds are very subtle and this process is wildly counterintuitive at many junctures.
One example of the later is that deeper understanding of being and existence and spirituality only begins once we STOP asking questions. The reason is that the questions will invariably be asked from the level of our understanding, and it is exactly that level we are hoping to transcend. Virtually every spiritual tradition will tell us that we cannot think our way to heaven, or some such thing. But asking questions is really just projecting our conditioned and evaluating minds onto reality, and only those "answers" that conform to the preconditions or our evaluating minds will be considered valid. Koan study in Zen is in part an attempt to so exhaust the evaluating mind with imponderables (what is the sound of one hand clapping; What is mu? Can a dog be enlightened?) that it, and all of it's questions, will drop away, and the real learning - that beyond our conditioning - can begin.
Another interesting credo, one which totally confounded me when I first heard it was that, "Self knowledge avails us nothing." That is, a merely intellectual canvassing of self will provide no significant transformation experience at all because it is so superficial. In fact it has been said that "thinking about spirituality is like dancing about architecture." This work required a much more profound dropping into that applying our minds to existential questions.
More later, but Ed's comment about "rejecting" mysticism reminds me of the old arguments we used to hear in the Zen community when people would complain that rabis and Catholic priests and nuns and other religious leaders were starting to practice and later be teachers in the in tradition. People who didn't know better voiced strong opinions that Zen was incompatible with Christianity or Judaism or Islam or whatever, and the answer was - that's entirely impossible for the simple reason that Zen has no content. What, in other words, are you feeling is incompatible with your religion, ergo, what is it that Ed is rejecting?
Most of this breaks down to people not knowing or believing that the evaluating/discursive mind is the wrong tool for this adventure because it's simply too limited and superficial. They are also not sufficiently and directly embedded in reality. IME, that kind of embeddedness can only be accomplished by dropping deeply into being, as in human being, before thought arises, and this is hooked up with presence, which is the harmonic or texture of infinity.
Great discussion.
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Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
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Jul 13, 2010 - 06:32am PT
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Hey John,
Only based on your comment, "It is possible that I have done all that, and I just can't find the answers I'm interested in along those particular lines... perhaps it works for others.." I'm going to have to say that you haven't studied scripture for "It's not about you!" One big misconception about getting to know God is that once someone learns an iota of what God gives to them in His Word is that they somehow become better people, hence, "it works for others." Sure, many come to know the Word of God after hitting "rock bottom" and are looking for something to get themselves out from that hole. But after getting good Godly counsel they will quickly learn that it's not about them, for it was that very attitude that put them where they are in the first place! Some, after receiving the holy Spirit, by committing their lives to Jesus Christ, become transformed as if a metamorphosis occured and become "new creatures". Others, seem to never get out of the hole that they were originally in, which would surely cast doubt on many's faith or on those trying to find the Truth. The word of God clearly states in the book of Matthew 22:37-40:
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
As you can see, there is nothing in those verses in reference to "you". It's about "God" and "thy neighbor". So, it doesn't work for me, it works for God and for my fellow brethren! Yes, the fruit, or result, of abiding by these commandments are the fruits of the capital "S", Spirit; Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, etc., but to be blessed with these, it's not about me!
Please don't get offended for this is not my intent. I'm just debating what you said is all and hoping that others will find the love, the joy and the peace that can come by getting to know God's Word.
Glory to God.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 11:14am PT
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He Fredrick... that was my line, don't pin it on Largo...
but your attitude is what I was talking about, and Largo also has it too, that one cannot but accept the teachings of whatever system if one just "understands" what that system is about...
for you it's the gospels, well there is a lot of good stuff in that book, good lessons, and there is a lot of irrelevant dross too. It's a narrative, a story, told in a way to make its lessons understandable, written and revised by wise men and wise story tellers. But conducting oneself in a "good" way doesn't need to depend on ultimate reward or punishment. It is an infantile way to enforce behavior which is socially positive.
I am not trying to reason the really big ideas into understanding, usually just taking little steps... I don't think I have any problem understanding the "void," "nothingness," and the compliment of "form." I work in a community of thinkers, and am happy to hear what anyone else has to say. But as for the ultimate answers to the ultimate questions, or as Largo might say, opening myself up to the universe... fine, so what? There are many ways to the enlightenment that our own personal concept of reality is limited and fails to encompass everything that there is... there are many paths to that realization, some of them ancient, some of them new.
I'm sure I come off sounding arrogant to some, and certainly lots of what I write here is not new or original. As far as new goes, the science stuff is part of a rather recent tradition probably not more than 400 years old, in terms of understanding, it has done a very good job. It doesn't answer all the questions you have, of course, and one could dislike the some of the answers when you put them up against 2000 year old traditions, or 5000 year old traditions or 25000 year old traditions...
...you should try it sometime, it is a slow journey into the unknown, an adventure, and you probably end up somewhere you didn't expect to when you started.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 13, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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"The electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known ..."
Now that's a nice statement .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 13, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
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Ed wrote: "one cannot but accept the teachings of whatever system if one just "understands" what that system is about..."
I won't try and bash you over the head with this, but I will try to make it as clear as I can - not so easy, or I would already have accomplished it, even to your satisfaction.
I accept that I cannot rip your mind away from the discursive and evaluating "left brain" function attributed to "understanding," which almost certainly in this case will involve some kind of definition or explanation or breakdown of reality. This is NOT what I have been driving at.
In a tradition like Soto Zen, the entire emphasis is on boring ever deeply into what our life IS, what this moment IS, what reality IS. That is the practice. You are told to shut your trap, loose the beliefs and ideas, sit quietly and listen and watch and be with yourself with no filters, so far as you can. That's Zen. Zen is NOT one person telling the world something to "understand" with your evaluating mind. Zen is, like many other traditions, a process of settling into reality on reality's own terms. Being with the world, and with ourselves, just exactly as we are - fostering a mindset of having no preferences. Good or bad, happy or sad, it's all just shifting experience.
There is no teaching to accept, beliefs to adhere to, or ring to kiss, or God to worship. By the totally open end way the practice is set up, if you reject "it," you are not rejecting Zen, which doesn't have any content of it's own, you are rejecting the reality of your own life, since that's all Zen is - settling ever deeper into your own life, moment to moment.
No one is going to tell you what your life is - but a skilled teacher can keep asking you questions so your inquiry keeps getting deeper as you go.
What most of us want, however, is to be offered a ready done metaphysic (a "bible" or Torah or Koran of some kind) that we can contrast alongside what we already know or think that we know, or deconstruct in the same way we do other things. "Here is a time tested way for you to find out for yourself," is not what most people want to hear, because it involves a big commitment to the unknown, with no guarantees. That's why serious spiritual joints are mostly empty. Most people simply want to noodle their lives on a superficial, analytical level. No harm in that, but it might do well to remember the credo, "Self knowledge avails us nothing."
JL
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bestill
Trad climber
s. ca.
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Jul 13, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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why do people believe in god? beats me.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 04:12pm PT
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" But conducting oneself in a "good" way doesn't need to depend on ultimate reward or punishment. It is an infantile way to enforce behavior which is socially positive."
Pssst...it's not about you Ed (said in a whisper).
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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On that note, I open up my email this morning and viola...
"It's not about being delivered. It's about the Deliverer!"
On this Independence weekend, we have so enjoyed our freedom in America and our freedom found only IN Christ. Both freedoms are a gift from God. We are truly fortunate people indeed. If we did not behave that way this weekend, shame on us. But fortunate we are, whether we meditate and appreciate it or not!
Why are we so fortunate? It is because we have been delivered! In America, we have been delivered from the tyranny of a former ruler. The very words of our original thirteen colonies declared in our "Declaration of Independence" from Britain these words declaring our absolute delivery from tyranny!
"Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. . ."
Though the pain of these earliest of Americans citizens is surely lost on most all of our countryman, it doesn't change the fact that our good fortunes are so valuable that no one in the whole wide world, save another fellow American, is as fortunate as we!
We ought also to be thankful for our freedom in Christ. For in that freedom we have been saved from the tyranny of the devil. Where would your life be without America and its freedom? What would your life be like without Christ and His freedom?
Life is good. But still, though our life has been delivered, it has not been so delivered that we should honor our delivery. But rather it is our DELIVERER that should be honored and He should be honored for His delivery!
"For to me to live IS Christ, and to die is gain." - Phillipians 1:21. If you are alive and free today, IS Christ? Or does He lie dormant in your spirit bound by your unwillingness to give Him access to the life He bled and died for?
Independence from my former dependence is not for me to live it up. It's for Him to live it out!"
Have a wonderful day IN the Lord!
Steven Curington
(Founder of Reformer's Unanimous International)
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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Why do people believe in God?
Why do physicists believe in Dark Energy?
Answer: It's just putting a label on a mystery. Calling it by a familiar term increases our comfort level where we don't know.
People are obsessive about knowing and are driven crazy by a mystery; i.e. things that go bump in the night...was that an intruder, or a bear, or just the ice-making machine in the refrigerator?
If we don't understand it, then it is a mystery, or magic, or a miracle, or a scientific anomaly. The worst ones are where we are convinced that we know.
In actual fact most everything we think we know is probably wrong; based upon analysis of human historical beliefs.
(we have much to learn)
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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Tom,
You may not "know" but I'm 100% certain that when I die I will spend eternity with Jesus Christ!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 13, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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And I am 100% certain that absolutely nothing will "happen" when I die.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
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The worst ones are where we are convinced that we know.
fixed ideas do not improve awareness
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 13, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
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Eternity with Jesus Christ....sounds rather boring, now if you throw in Mary Magdalene.....
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jstan
climber
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Jul 13, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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The evidence seems to be getting stronger.
Humans are psychologically incapable of existing in the presence of mystery. It is a huge flaw.
The world has a lot of mystery in it.
If one has a different frame of mind, mystery is a pot of gold.
Imagine how fun a climb, even a 5.4 can be, if you go up without having any idea what is there.
Some like mystery. Like it because it is something for which an explanation can be found.
Others hate it with a passion.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 13, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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Tom, Jstan- Well, I think you're both falling into a sort of religious trap, here. I say a "religious" trap because we are used to using, hearing, the very same argument delivered to fundamentalist religious people.
Sure, there are mysteries and unknowns out there. But one can also draw some lines- bright red lines- between those and what we know with a high level of confidence through trial and error, everyday living, experience, science, engineering, etc. Of course, however, there is art, skill, that is required to draw some of these lines.
"The worst ones are where we are convinced that we know." Agreed, in some circumstances.
Then again, in a lot of circumstances, "where we are convinced we know" is not a bad thing but a good thing. Performance, behavior, results, of all kinds depends on being convinced we know, on having knowledge and acting on that knowledge. In sports, in business and industry. And I would suggest equally so in the "practice" of living.
We are not yet, by and large, in a habit of reframing this. We are falling for the traditional religious framing here. It's time we reframed it. Reframe it (a) in terms of decision-making, for better or worse, (b) standing up for your decisions, and then (c) accepting accountability, again for better or worse, for those decisions and stances. That is a strategy that we all use, that is played out everyday, in all areas and fields of the human experience, for moving forward.
Yeah, I am pretty "convinced"... in different terms, I have a "high level of confidence" (a) that DNA is a real molecule (even tho I've never seen one personally), (b) that a 10.2mm rope will catch me or hold me sometime in a fall or take in the next couple of weeks, (c) that Aphrodite really didn't emerge from sea foam off some Greek isle 2,500 years ago despite what history's claimed (even though I wasn't there).
I just think we ought to be more careful with blanket catchphrases like (a) Don't judge, or (b) Being convinced you know is arrogant, haughty, not good. -When really performance, success, results throughout our day and throughout our lives (our "practices" of living) depend heavily on these processes.
P.S. Using Norton as an example...
I, for one, totally get Norton. At some point (1) he made a number of decisions (e.g., re: mortality, really biology, and the reality of Jehovah), which means he took stances, and (2) on this thread he expressed them. And continues to do so. As a decision-maker, all the power to him.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 13, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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Lot's of good conversation here lately. Very interesting. Excellent.
For Pate and others,
For those of you who keep pointing out a GOD of vengeance and wrath in the Old Testament, I share with you PhD Michael Heiser. If you want to really know why GOD had his people (the Jews), wipe out all those other many different and separate Kingdoms and People, then you really need to listen to what was going on then and understand according to the Bible. PhD Michael Heiser is a Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages scholar. He has researched these same questions you ponder, and he now knows why. By the way, many of faith ask those same questions. I have. Never really understood why, until recently. It is a very interesting lecture series . . .
PhD Michael Heiser and the Nephilim:
9 out of 9 videos in sequence to watch
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E3B3C4A6F1D8A9F5
PhD Michael Heiser's Website:
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/
There is much I agree with PhD Heiser on, the truth regarding the Nephilim, the truth regarding UFOs, but I disagree with his take on Bible Code. He has a hard time wrapping his head around how GOD could do this, when the Bible has changed very slowly over time from scribe to scribe. Hey, GOD can do what ever he wills. It is probably child's play to do Bible Code for GOD, but light years beyond our ability to understand how.
Well, think about it, you would have to know exactly what the future holds. Well, GOD is Omniscient.
Edit:
Here is a link to PhD Heiser's new book. I haven't read it yet. Gets a lot of great reviews. Looks good. It's in my wishlist . . .
The Facade [Paperback]
Michael S. Heiser (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Facade-Michael-S-Heiser/dp/1931055440
Newer version:
http://www.facadethebook.com/index.htm
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
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An original motivation for learning to climb (solo) in my early teens was as a lab to explore my human reactions facing the unknown apart from other people. Becoming well known as a climber after Royal discovered me was an uncomfortable surprise and worked at cross purposes to this. Although I now enjoy the social aspects of the climbing community, it took me a while to be comfortable with it.
I had been very intrigued by Einstein's observation that we only use a small part of our intelligence, and wanted to explore what I could do apart from the influence of parents and teachers and friends. I felt that a mind full of fixed ideas and words and music was shutting off awareness.
I was a scholar and musician, and not any sort of athlete. I applied the mindset of a dedicated violinist to learning bouldering and soloing; practicing the same climbs many many times. I didn't know any other climbers and explored what could be done independent of the influence of others.
And I went alone into the Idaho wilderness to learn shutting off the barrage of words and music in my head. You could call the result a religious experience; but that's not how I think of it. I think of it as waking up.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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hey Largo, I know that... I've even done that... quieting the chatter and just being...
I also understand what you are saying about the "left brain" thing... which is what I do mostly... I recognize the limitations of both practices. I'm just saying that my choice is conscious and not unexamined.
I know your choice is also a choice... not a whim.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 13, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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hey Largo, I know that... I've even done that... quieting the chatter and just being...
I also understand what you are saying about the "left brain" thing... which is what I do mostly... I recognize the limitations of both practices. I'm just saying that my choice is conscious and not unexamined.
I know your choice is also a choice... not a whim.
Ed, I think we are approaching the same "thing" but from different ends. I tried the strictly intellectual approach and I was not able to level myself out of myself. So I went to where i could experience some results.
I think that Jstan has a very valid point: people cannot hang in the mystery for long. Put differently, we cannot hang in chaos, or in vulnerability, for more than a moment without wanting to steady up. Arno Illgner's Rock Warrior course is set up to address this very thing.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 13, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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somethings you learn to live with, in science, it's the fact that you'll never know everything... never be able to explain everything, that "everything" lays as much in Newton's ocean at the shore as it does beyond the horizon unseen.
If you're not comfortable with that sort of uncertainty science probably isn't a good thing to do...
...I'd love to climb with Arno and discuss his thoughts on climbing.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 13, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
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Ed has published minutes before me. Largo is into "imagining" but what does he mean by it?
Here is a definition.
to imagine: the conscious act of allowing the mind to operate unconstrained
It is conscious and it is an act or a choice.
So tell me that imagining that the presence of mass causes space itself to become curved is not imaginative!
Or today's blockbuster idea that the sun is like a giant vacuum sweeper gathering up dark matter.
Mind you this may even be more than some neurons firing in someone's head. Dark matter in the sun can explain the speed with which energy generated in the center of the sun makes it way to the surface - and once there helps keep us all alive.
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/07/dark-matter-sun/
Hate mystery? Who would do such a thing?
We live for the chance to explain it.
Just as some live for the chance to solve a mystery high up on a face.
I seriously doubt Largo is doing something a lot different from this.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 13, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Dr F
You need to make another post just to keep yourself convinced ......
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 13, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Bitd, I found and put up the Pit and the Pendulum, at Malibu Creek. Mark Wilford came there, and Mike Ayon and I showed him around. We did the Pit and also he soloed a serious boulder problem that became the Eiger Sanction, across from the Pit. Mark bagged the line left of Pick Pocket which he didn't name, so we called it Wild Willie, for good reason!
One time at the Apes Traverse, Dale Bard was there talking with a guy who said he was Troy Mayr. But he isn't my friend Troy, so I thought this is weird? Now I don't know if he has the same name or what? But then he says he put up the routes at Williamson Rock? So I go you're full of it, and I called him out on it, Dale was put a back, trust me I know the real Friends of Williamson Rock, Troy Mayr, we have climbed many days up there and that was just offensive!
Genesis 2:4, These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
Nehemiah 9:6, “You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.
Isaiah 45:12, I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.
Isaiah 45:18, For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.
Jeremiah 10:12, It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
Jeremiah 32:17, ‘Ah, Lord God! It is you who have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and by your outstretched arm! Nothing is too hard for you
.
Jeremiah 51:15, “It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
2 Corinthians 5:1, For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Well not to give God His due, is way more offensive!!!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:45am PT
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It is difficult to listen to the other person in a conversation when you are busy with your own thinking and speaking.
It is likewise difficult to be at a high level of awareness when your mind is busy generating thoughts.
There's an interesting thing about a big thunderstorm; everyone stops and listens at the moment of a big thunderclap.
Step one is to quiet the mind.
There are lots of religious and meditation practices to do this. They are all crutches. Not to say that's necessarily a bad idea, unless it becomes a noisy obsession in itself.
If you can just quiet the mind then you can listen.
Unfortunately all the pain and noise going on in the world makes listening very challenging; and people who manage to listen for a moment tend to retreat quickly back into the familiar noise of their thoughts.
It's great to be off alone in the winter mountains.
I am eager to go into space. There's an experience known to the Apollo astronauts, called the blue marble effect. When you look back towards the earth and see just a little blue marble. Then you look around and begin to realize how very far it is to anything else that might conceivably support our form of life. And so we'd best take better care of that blue marble.
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 14, 2010 - 02:59am PT
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HFCS says:
"Then again, in a lot of circumstances, "where we are convinced we know" is not a bad thing but a good thing. Performance, behavior, results, of all kinds depends on being convinced we know, on having knowledge and acting on that knowledge. In sports, in business and industry. And I would suggest equally so in the "practice" of living.
We are not yet, by and large, in a habit of reframing this. We are falling for the traditional religious framing here. It's time we reframed it. Reframe it (a) in terms of decision-making, for better or worse, (b) standing up for your decisions, and then (c) accepting accountability, again for better or worse, for those decisions and stances. That is a strategy that we all use, that is played out everyday, in all areas and fields of the human experience, for moving forward."
DAMN! That is very well said!
The idea was presented a bit earlier in this string that people cannot tolerate too much uncertainty and in too much confusion will grasp something in order to stabilize the situation. I think that is pretty valid. It might be "God" or it might be "Darwinism", the infallibility of the King, "all corporations are bad", "Don't try to rise above your station in life". Most of us have picked up on something while we were growing up because somebody we thought was cool did it or said it, or because our parents said it -- we adopt data and concepts to fit in, feel a part of the scene - which provides a sense of stability.
Some of these concepts are easily dropped later when we become more used to the idea that we see things and evaluate and judge things from our own viewpoint, that when we do things there are effects created that can come back on us in good and bad ways, and that we personally have to learn our own lessons. (I guess there's quite a lot of people who don't get very far on that though.)
Probably the greater the magnitude of the confusion and the rapidity of development of the confusion have a bearing on how solidly fixed will become the thing we have grasped onto in order to nullify the confusion.
You can tolerate quite a bit of unknowns and confusions as long as you have a modicum of personal certainty of your ability to manage your immediate environment. A population under threat is a sucker for a slogan, a dictator or some tyranical version of whatever political, religious or scientific forms are extant.
Big PhRMA has this down pat. Get "Generalized Anxiety Disorder" invented, pay doctors and media to alarm the public about it and present the stabilizing solution of Paxil to them in TV ads. With their antidepressant ads they got millions of folks, including highly educated ones, repeating with absolute certainty that people are depressed because they have a low level of serotonin. The theory is unproven; no patient can be given a biological test to determine it; when the failed clinical trials were dragged out of the closet, effectiveness = placebo. Add in the harmful effects: suicidality, withdrawal symptoms, birth defects, male sterility, depersonalization, destructive impulsive behavior, etc. Bah, something other than science.
This is a world where there are some people who will do the most dastardly, unethical, manipulative, deceptive, destructive and despicable things quite intentionally and consider that they are totally justified in doing so. And this occurs in high political, religious and scientific fields as well as on the street and in homes and communities.
I don't care where someone is on the scale between the finite and the infinite (or any other way you want to put it). What I really care about is what people do here and now. I object to butchery and unwarranted destruction and degradation of life. If people don't have the ultimates figured out, that's fine. If they have them figured out (right or wrong), that's fine. At least here and now we can operate with good sense, integrity, honor, care and consideration and encourage other people to do so.
As far as censure or punishment goes, you could probably help a child grow up fast and well by directing yourself not to his deed but to where he violated his own sense of right and wrong or his own personal integrity.
"Yer sendin me tuh bed wit no supper cause I burned down thu barn?"
"Nah, we gunna have fun fixin it. Ahm sendin you tuh bed wit no supper cause frum wat you said, you viuhlaated yer own common sense and integridde cause Billy call you a scardy cat. That ther showed very poorly on you and I just can't tolerat dat! Now go tuh bed."
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 14, 2010 - 10:22am PT
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"The first offense is to decry persons who try in their lives to broadcast the glories of the Lord."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 14, 2010 - 11:19am PT
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Engineering and medicine (two applied science disciplines) are real-time, substantive, everyday proofs, illustrations, reminders (a) that science is an awesome effective investigational tool, worthy of respect, on the right tracks to figuring out how the world works and how life works and (b) that the world is intelligible, works according to rules, rules of causality, that are invariant.
Knowing better is doing better.
Knowing the rules means doing better.
Because of science and its everyday engineering products at work in the fields, we can be more "convinced," or more confident, if you prefer, in regard to how things truly work (and how the world truly works) than we could be without them.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 14, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Bump!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 15, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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interesting suggestion about a singularity in your first link there, wanda.
locker, that last woman is too airbrushed, and i see too many like that on ST. you broke my heart with the woman before that, however.
"sex is the consolation prize for those who don't have love." --garcia-marquez
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Jay Karst
Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
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Jul 15, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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Your all going to hell!jk
Speaking only for myself, I have seen Gods good works all around me when I climb, faith has heightend my appreciation for all things! In times of trouble I do have someone to talk to and on every** occation I have gained something from it. And when things are really good there is someone to thank.Faith keeps me thankful no matter what the situation. Several times I have been in situations where the only "logical" explenation was that there wasn't one. Besides seeing thing in black & White is just too boring. Adding some color to your life allows one view the world through a new set of eyes.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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Wanda-
I'll be the first to answer your last post and also make reference to Tony since he recommended a very interesting book that I'm currently reading, called The Conscious Universe: the Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena, by Dean Radin.
The book is a summary of all the psychic research which has been done up to this point in time and I would really challenge all the materialists on this thread to read it. For those of us with more of a consciousness orientation it is also valuable for its very thorough review of scientific methodology, experimental design in particular.
In this book Radin came up with a similar theory to gamma waves several years ago, saying that he believed one possible explanation for psi phenomenon is that some people are better able to filter out mental "noise" than others and thus get a clearer image than the human norm. He did not posit how this was done only that it seemed a reasonable explanation for telepathy and clairvoyance in particular.
Personally, I found the level of corelations in his book to be rather low. In experiments where 25% was random chance, thousands of experiments (he's big on meta-analysis) showed corelation with psi phenomena ranging from 34-39%. Of course most of these experiments were working with a cross section of ordinary people not known for their psychic abilities. He did note that statistically 1% of this random population had extraordinary psychic abilities with much higher success rates than 39%.
Since many systems of prayer and meditation say that everyone has this ability if they reach a certain level of spiritual attainment, it would certainly be interesting to look at the brains of the psychic 1% compared to meditation masters and see if there are similarities.
It seems to me that there is a ton of scientific research to be done amid many indications that the human mind is much more sensitive and aware than it has been given credit for, particularly in the West.
Using the radio wave analogy that your article on gamma waves does, a finding that humans are able to communicate mentally/psychically with each other and across vast distances of geography by that or some other method, would certainly call for a new paradigm in both science and religion. The conscious universe and the holographic universe are two terms already in use in an attempt to label this new paradigm.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 15, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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What's telling? Here's telling:
Do you ever see an effort- any effort at all- ever, ever, ever- on the part of supernaturalists, now on this thread, paranormalists, too, to simply come to grips with the fact that all living things on earth (including hbs) are material and mortal?
C'mon, you supers- and paras-, at least make an effort. Some effort. Challenge yourselves to get a grip on your nature (your material basis, also your one-shot mortality) just as you challenge yourselves to go climb some gnarly route. The difficulties you will experience are growing pains.
Got news for you: Even to us materialists (better: material functionalists, material biotic mechanists), life is a bounty. A bounty of colors. A bounty of wonders. A bounty of joys.
Challenge yourselves. Get with it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 15, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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if precise definitions for things like "consciousness" cannot be made, then any claims of scientific evidence is a priori called into question
scientific evidence is quantitative, empirical and hypothesis based. The hypothesis should have predictive ability which is quantitative, and be based on a rigorous "theory" a system which has a mathematical logic connected with a logically consistent explanation of many related phenomena
I'd say that from the discussion here that there is no way that such a book could even approach scientific rigor. So, while this sounds rather closed minded, unless the book has a "theory of consciousness" that meets scientific standards, it's dead on arrival... the rest of it is just pseudo-science... stuff dressed up in the guise of science which isn't.
Like Feynman said, the first job is not to fool yourself...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 15, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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Ed- You failed to capitalize two sentences. Also, you left out two periods.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2010 - 02:13pm PT
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Radin provides a long discussion along the lines of Ed's critique and is very careful to point out what has NOT been proven as well as what has, and to mention that a theory of psi will have to evolve for it to truly be considered a science.
He also goes on to discuss the four stages of a new scientific paradigm and to say that psi research is at level 1 with level 2 on the horizon.
He also makes the case that the level of validation for psi experiments would be acceptable in any other human subject experiments in medicine and psychology.
As for developing theory first, many scientific discoveries were stumbled upon by accident or came about by observation long before a theory to account for them was developed.
Meanwhile, the gamma wave model of how the brain works attracted my attention because wave transmission of intuitive knowledge, energy and various spiritual states, corresponds much better with my own experiences than the neuron model ever did.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 15, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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Jan wrote-
"...the gamma ray model of how the brain works..."
Gamma wave or gamma ray? ;)
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
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In experiments where 25% was random chance, thousands of experiments (he's big on meta-analysis) showed corelation with psi phenomena ranging from 34-39%.
Some exerpts from God: The Failed hypothesis (pages 92-93) regarding the statistical analysis of psychic phenomena that seem appropriate here:
Parapsychologists argue that they should be held to the same standard of statistical significance as medical science, where claimed positive effects of, say, a new drug, are published when the statistical significance ("P value") IS 5% (p=0.05) or lower...
. . .
Contrast this with the standard in the field of research [of] ... elementary particle physics. There the standard of P value for publication is 0.01% (P< 0.0001).
. . .
A number of studies have claimed to be able to overcome the lack of statistical significance of single experiments by using a technique called "metanalysis", in which the results of many experiments are combined. This procedure is highly questionable. I am unaware of any extraordinary discovery in all of science that was made using metanalysis. If several, independant experiments do not find significanrt evidence for a phenomenon, we cannot expect a purely mathematical manipulation of the combined data to suddenly produce a major discovery.
. . .
In any other field, such an unbroken history of negative resuilts would have long ago resulted in the claims being discarded. At the minimum, psychic experiments cannot be used to show that humans possess and special powers of the mind that exceed the physical limitations of inanimate matter.
In other words, meta anlysis can be used for data mining:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-analysis#Weaknesses
Meta-analysis can never follow the rules of hard science, for example being double-blind, controlled, or proposing a way to falsify the theory in question....
A weakness of the method is that sources of bias are not controlled by the method.
. . .
Another weakness of the method is the heavy reliance on published studies, which may create exaggerated outcomes, as it is very hard to publish studies that show no significant results. For any given research area, one cannot know how many studies have been conducted but never reported and the results filed away.[10]
This file drawer problem results in the distribution of effect sizes that are biased, skewed or completely cut off, creating a serious base rate fallacy, in which the significance of the published studies is overestimated. For example, if there were fifty tests, and only ten got results, then the real outcome is only 20% as significant as it appears, except that the other 80% were not submitted for publishing, or thrown out by publishers as uninteresting. This should be seriously considered when interpreting the outcomes of a meta-analysis.[10][11]
. . .
The most severe weakness and abuse of meta-analysis often occurs when the person or persons doing the meta-analysis have an economic, social,or political agenda such as the passage or defeat of legislation. Those persons with these types of agenda have a high likelihood to abuse meta-analysis due to personal bias. For example, researchers favorable to the author's agenda are likely to have their studies "cherry picked" while those not favorable will be ignored or labeled as "not credible". In addition, the favored authors may themselves be biased or paid to produce results that support their overall political, social, or economic goals in ways such as selecting small favorable data sets and not incorporating larger unfavorable data sets.
If a meta-analysis is conducted by an individual or organization with a bias or predetermined desired outcome, it should be treated as highly suspect or having a high likelihood of being "junk science". From an integrity perspective, researchers with a bias should avoid meta-analysis and use a less abuse-prone (or independent) form of research.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)
I know us Christians do believe in a real; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!
What do the rest of you believe in?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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rrrADAM-
It would be interesting to see the copyright on that quotation as it is almost word for word similar to what appeared in The Conscious Universe with the opposite spin. Who was trying to refute who first?
Meanwhile you realize that if you don't accept meta analysis and similar techniques, you've basically said that any research on human beings is useless unless it is measuring a physiological response? Of course there are some, probably many, from the hard sciences who do say this.
Interesting also, that psychic research, like acupuncture, is being experimented with by industry, intelligence agencies, and the military, even though it is a pariah to academia. There wouldn't be 40 year old ongoing research by these agencies if they weren't getting something useful out of it. Likewise the police departments who employ psychics to find both missing and dead. Incidentally, these groups are credited by Radin with operating at level 2 of the 4 stage paradigm shift.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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Jan
Psychics generally are last resort for finding missing and dead for LEO departments and generally not held in high regard.
I can tell you some really bizarre claims from some of these so called psychics.
On one incident a psychic sent us to an absolutely stupid spot. I believe that psychic swindled the family for money.
But ... on one other particular incident here, the psychic was right on the mark .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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Werner-
That's the whole frustration with anything not connected to material data. It's not 100% accurate or reproducible. I understand why scientists say it doesn't meet their criteria for hard empirical science. I just think they're being closed minded when they say that therefore there is nothing to it.
I am reluctant to come to this conclusion as it means that both sides then retreat to their own disciplines and no exchange takes place. It's a rare thing in my experience, for religious people, people interested in unusual but hard to measure human experiences, and hard core scientists to come together even to discuss their differences.
Even though there have been recent calls to kill the thread (ahem Tony!), I think this discussion, though it doesn't seem to change any minds, is very useful at least for defining the parameters.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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i do not bother with trivialities.
god is such.
i exist above the devil and the details.
i've big horizons to tame. im busy eluding love.
and extremely busy saying goodbye.
"i don't want to be above,
i wanna be amongst the things i love." - mother hips.
you get hung up on god, as have prior, when the fears of the unknown overwhelm, and you feel desperation. those of stout poise eventually recoginize the error, and those of stout poise sometimes remain in their cage.
we are all humans trying to make sense of a dollar when we're only given 66 cents. how you spend the remaining 44 is your choice.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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Looks like God created the chicken first!
http://www.dailytech.com/Genetic+Study+Solves+Which+Came+First++the+Chicken+or+the+Egg/article19040.htm
Edit:
Genesis 1:24, And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds (CHICKENS) and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Jan
There are a lot lurkers here too who would never really venture into a thread of this sort due to the general acidic atmosphere created by too many juvenile individuals on this site.
The idea here is really not to change anyone's mind, but to show and exchange information.
Generally ones mind can not change until an actual experience has happened.
Openness seems more of a useful goal in a thread of this sort.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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Radin goes through a number of possible explanations (including the possibility that there are physical senses involved that we have yet to discover) and concludes that we simply don't know yet.
He does have a chapter at the end of the book discussing gambling (he worked out of the University of Nevada), but I haven't got there. I'll let you know when I do.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 15, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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there comes a redeemer,
and he slowly to, fades away.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 15, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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jesus, more fuking echoes.
gobee if you thunk up something from your own gawdamn rotted mind, maybe we would hear you.
have you been reduced? think about it.
or can you, still?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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Jan...
rrrADAM-
It would be interesting to see the copyright on that quotation as it is almost word for word similar to what appeared in The Conscious Universe with the opposite spin. Who was trying to refute who first?
Nothing in it was in quotations, other than "P Value", and he used "I" statements, so I believe they are his, Victor J. Stenger's, words.
It was published in 2008.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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Jan...That's the whole frustration with anything not connected to material data. It's not 100% accurate or reproducible. I understand why scientists say it doesn't meet their criteria for hard empirical science. I just think they're being closed minded when they say that therefore there is nothing to it.
For what reason would they be closed minded? It could open up new areas of research, that would likely be generously funded, so why?
Perhaps this is your way of denying their claim that it is junk science.
Again... In the over 150 years of reseaqrch into it, NOTHING of statistical significvance has come up. Even just a few psychics leading police to dead bodies is more than significant.
Why do cops go to them? Desperation. When people are desperate, they try anything, as it can't hurt, right?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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r3adam- We have to just let it go and move on, she's incorrigible.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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When the Day of the Lord comes, I wont say I told you so, I'll do it now!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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So how did this one psychic correctly give the location where the body was located?
No one else knew where it was located.
This happened here in Yosemite ....
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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You're pretty good at typing with your left hand, huh go0B.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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Psych-ed, Werner was he the killer?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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Link with details please, Werner? As that's a pretty vague question to have to answer.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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I was on this search budy.
The psychic perfectly described the location.
You rant too much Dr F .....
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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Unexplained stuff does happen! My grandmother knew something happened to her brother and he drowned at another location!
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 16, 2010 - 12:04am PT
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I was on this search budy.
The psychic perfectly described the location.
That's it?
There must be a newspaper article about it, since it was a missing body, right?
You know... My horoscope last month 'perfectly described' what happened last month. But then so did one for another sign.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 16, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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Dr. F.-
"all claims by psychic detectives have been debunked
There has never been an actual criminal case solved by a psychic detective
nor have they ever lead police to a dead body"
is just plain wrong and in any case is not a statement a hard core scientist would make as it violates the same critieria of 100% replicability that you say you are demanding of psychic research.
Ed has already told you something along these lines about a thousand posts ago when you were making similar absolutist statements.
As for winning at gambling, if it only happens a few times you will label it a statistical anomaly and for sure the casinos will find a way to exclude those individuals after a very short time.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 01:32am PT
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i once "solved" a murder mystery in a small town where i reported, but couldn't publish the story. it was a psychopathic murder, and i wouldn't be suprised if the killer went to his grave without being arrested. a psychic was brought in on the case, and although the murder weapon couldn't be found, the psychic's intuitions strongly implicated the prime suspect and corroborated other evidence and suspicions, none of which were strong enough to warrant an arrest. justice never comes easy.
psychic things are like that. when they happen, they comprise evidence of legitimate intuition. no, you don't put in your dime and get a prediction. but information does come across, and that information itself is scientific data. in my own experience, i had a psychic talk about events in my earlier life she had no way of knowing. that's data. you don't have to believe me, but you will find others who are similarly convinced by similar experiences. it doesn't make us any better or you any worse, but it's something you have to encounter before it really registers. not everyone encounters such, but maybe that attests to its scientific aspect. lots of things in science can be elusive that way.
another area of the paranormal is ghosts. if you ask around, you will easily find people who have seen real ghosts. i've already talked with one such witness here on ST. the experiences don't make very good horror movies, but they're real. there are many aspects of ghost science, and the phenomena fall into categories and patterns that are the legitimate foundation of any science. ignore, ignore, deny, deny, but it's there. the problem is that it isn't what you want it to be, but that doesn't make it any less real.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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I've always thought that the best argument against "psychic" powers is based on evolution and selection...
...this is a "materialist's" argument, so for those of you who don't think that mind, consciousness, etc are the result of evolution you can go on to the next post...
let's say that it is possible to "see the future," that it is an attribute of our thought
let's say there is a range of ability to "see the future"
those who have this ability are better able to survive, they know when there is danger, they know where there is food, they know how to mate efficiently, etc...
before too long, this attribute is amplified, people who have more of it can anticipate what is going to happen, and those that do not have it can't, and thus are eliminated at a higher percentage than others
the fact that it is not a major attribute of our abilities indicates that it does not exist at all...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 02:02am PT
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HERE is Nature's review of the book Jan is reading
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 16, 2010 - 02:44am PT
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Good point about evolution Ed. That's why I was interested in Radin's statement that of the tens of thousands of psi test subjects over the years only 1% seemed to have real abilities.
Now take the fact that shamanism is one of the world's oldest forms of religion and shamanistic gifts are said to be passed down in families, something said about psychics as well. This seems to indicate that such talents have a genetic component. Like tends to marry like so they were conserving their talents, not spreading them around. Anthropologists have also discovered that among the 6,000 societies we have studied, a full 1/3 of them preferred to marry their first cousins. More concentration.
Next consider warfare and the fact that it was common practice to wipe out the conquered men and mate with the conquered women and you eliminate more from the gene pool. In south China for example, something like 80% of the female lineages are southern, but only 20% of the males, and they're mostly in remote areas. Southern Chinese males were eliminated by northern Chinese invaders.
Shamans were often feared as well as respected, and since they were believed to carry the power of the tribe, would have been the first singled out for execution along with their whole families in many cases.
Then there is the persecution of people in Middle Eastern and European culture with psychic talents. At least 30,000 women were burned to death as witches during the Middle Ages.Anybody with psychic talents kept a low profile after that and still do because of ongoing ridicule by the scientific establishment.
In Asian societies not burdened by religious dogma or one religion established over others, psychic abilities are much more common and accepted. There are thought to be 30,000 professional shamans on the small island of Okinawa in a population of 1.3 million people and almost anyone you talk to here has had several psychic experiences. Okinawans are also the longest lived people in the world and have the most centenarians, so they are definitely an interesting population of fit survivors in the Darwinian sense. This would be a good place to try to establish a link between psychic phenomenon and genetic inheritance.
But who dares to risk their scientific reputation to do that?
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 16, 2010 - 03:42am PT
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rrADAM, et al.
The scientific method definitely gets tricky when it is applied to life. Which is why drug trials have to account for the placebo effect. The placebo effect has "grown" over the past couple decades such that some drugs that might have formerly tested superior enough to gain FDA approval would currently fail. Big PhRMA has had to search for foreign populations where the placebo effect has not advanced in which to do their double-blind studies.
What I have said above and will say below are not made up by me though I can't shoot you the reference articles or other material right off the cuff. I've been in the midst of litigation against Big PhRMA since around 1999 and I have had daily traffic from numerous sources including journal articles, media, web traffic on both sides of the fence, deposition transcripts, expert reports, whistle blower information, confidential pharma documents including hidden studies, emails and sometimes early info re: investigations by Congress and the Justice Department. Over the years I have read through many thousands of pages of material in this area.
"Science" as far as psychopharmaceuticals is particularly trash. Most of the drugs are "cures" or symptomological relievers for utterly subjective "diagnoses". The diagnoses themselves are subject to manipulation and creation by Big PhRMA $. Biological theories relating to brain chemicals, brain function and genetic factors are floated with great fanfare by media but receive "obituatry" treatment or no notice when the theory doesn't pan out. (I am actually am aware of one theory relating to a particular gene that appears to be valid and specific to several symptoms, the negative function of which gene is capable of being turned off by certain nutritional applications and which should be going to double-blind study soon. However, I'm doubtful that it would make a big impact since it is susceptible to nutritional control -- meaning it would not represent a profit center for Big PhRMA.)
Foreign (not natural to the body) chemical compounds which operate on body chemistry in complex and coordinated body systems are experimented with in an expanding sphere to (a) make sure it doesn't dramatically harm and (b) see if it has any effect on (in the case of psychopharmaceuticals) the "squishy" symptomology which is assumed to be of chemical origin. (Although there may be chemical phenomena present, there is also present the assumption that the phenomena is sourced in chemistry, though there is still the sticky problem of "placebo effect" that has to be dealt with and no papers that I am aware of that have ever located the chemical source of the "placebo effect".)
These chemical compounds do not exist in the pristine halls of science by the time we get to double-blind studies (which require a significant amount of $), they exist in the "pipeline" of a pharmaceutical company.
The black box warnings regarding suicidality on the SSRI antidepressants and the Congressional investigations into the pharmaceutical industry which have been ongoing for several years are in a significant part due to the dogged persistence for the truth exercised by the law firm I am with (and our clients) which unearthed some of its sordid nature AND yanked it kicking and screaming into public records rather than settle with the schmucks and let it remain hidden.
The "squishy" area of mental/emotional phenomena is particularly succeptible to manipulation, however, upon moving into what one might think is "harder" biological science, like diabetes, etc., I discovered that Big PhRMA is quite consistent in their astounding willingness to deceive not only the general public, but medical doctors, regulators, insurance companies, governmental agencies, and themselves.
First, (I believe the figure is) close to 70% of "gold standard" double-blind studies will favor the pharmaceutical company's drug if funded by the pharmaceutical company. If independently funded, only (I believe the figure is) near 40% of studies will be favorable to the drug.
To gain approval from the FDA has required only 2 studies that show an effect greater than placebo (without any otherwise significant negative effects). There had been no requirement that the company reveal negative studies (no matter how many).
In the case of the antidepressant Paxil, SmithKline Beecham (now GlaxoSmithKline - GSK) only received FDA approval (for short term use in Major Depressive Disorder only) because it intentionally and fraudulently manipulated their statistics regarding suicidality in regard to Paxil vs. Placebo). When it was later questioned, the company provided the FDA with a metanalysis which included an anomalous study involving a study population that was already suicidal and which logically included a number of subjects who were suicidal during the study who were on placebo. This put enough "suicidals" into the placebo column of the analysis to fudge the statistical significance of the resulting figures.
During GSK's "delicate" times with the FDA, they had hidden communications with their "friends" in the FDA.
The additional thing we uncovered and brought to the attention of both the FDA and Congress was GSK's "coding" of "side effects." GSK ordered study personnel to code suicidality as "emotional lability" (which basically means getting extremely upset, crying, and all), thus placing it out of sight and out of the statistics.
Furthermore, GSK attempted to gain FDA approval for Paxil use in children and adolescents (and also approval from the corresponding agency in Britain, the MHRA) based on a study that demonstrated NO benefit beyond placebo and a marked increase in suicidality. The study authors (otherwise known as paid PhRMA whores) focused on some minor test function that demonstrated improvement and proclaimed to the medical community and the media that the study showed REMARKABLE efficacy and safety in children!
The lies involved in this resulted in an investigation by the MHRA in Britain and GSK barely avoided criminal prosecution there due to a legal technicality. They remained "haughty" to the authorities.
The focus on "ghost writing" of journal articles (by PR flunkies and then shopping around for authors) was brought to the attention of the public by our efforts and contributed to the revolt of responsible medical journal editors who have formed their own inernational organization of medical journal editors to try and retrieve some sane ethical level to their own journals.
FDA SCIENTISTS are at war with the management of FDA and have their own website. Big PhRMA settlements with individual plaintiffs and with governments, federal and state, are astronomical -- billions of dollars -- over the past several years, for myriad criminal and unethical behaviors.
Pfizer's proven criminality would have eliminated it from participation in Medicare so the federal government allowed it to have a subsidiary plead guilty rather than destroy the largest pharmaceutical company in the world (which paid some $2.5 billion in fines).
Hundreds of thousands of individuals have been killed or injured by Big PhRMA who insist they are a bastion of science. The Vioxx and Avandia cases are noted contributors.
The FDA and FTC attack nutritional products and even information (including lifestyle choices) when it is the lack of good nutritional information and products (including food) and lifestyle changes that are at the rooot of or contribute strongly to the physical (and even emotional/mental) problems from which Big PhRMA and Big Medicine grow rich.
We challenged Big PhRMA when George W. and his crowd came to the Presidency and he appointed Dan Troy to be the Chief Counsel for the FDA. Dan Troy, a year before, had earned hundreds of thousands of dollars representing Pfizer. Bush appointed as Solicitor General of the U.S. a guy who who formerly a big partner in the law firm which represented GSK in our Paxil suicide and withdrawal symptoms cases. The U.S. government logically intervened in several of our lawsuits with amicus briefs that sided with our Big PhRMA adversaries, trying to get our cases thrown out of court. (The Solicitor General has to approve any U.S. intervention in a private civil lawsuit.)
Dan Troy met with Big PhRMA representatives and told them to bring their problem cases to him and he would help them.
Over the years, when there was a pause in the barrage of legal documents being thrown into and around the trenches of the war (and going up aginst Big PhRMA is a f*cking WAR!), I sometimes had the wishful thought that some REAL scientists from the "pure" sciences and engineering fields would step in and examine and raise a ruckus about the despicable state of the "science" which so dramatically impacts the well-being and sanity of the population. It never happened.
I believe that any real scientist would NEVER tolerate the absolute insanity of the state of "science" in the pharmaceutical field. Looking at it now I can think of some reasons why this has not happened:
1. Real scientists must believe that other people who also have alphabet soup after their names must be as devoted to science as they are;
2. Real scientists must believe that the level of personal ethics (by which I mean "personal" rather than some written rules) must be the same in other "scientific" fields;
3. Real scientists must mostly believe that, since the scientists in the field of the mind and emotions are taking a "physical" approach, they must be on the right track. They may have to take into account the "observer" effect, but they don't really understand how different a field "science" becomes when you have to deal with a "placebo effect" which is in many cases an equivalent of a "physical effect" and which is an undefined variable in the same biological terms by which the "physical effect" is assumed to manifest.
I gotta get to sleep. I could go on for hours in this area but I need to get back to work tomorrow. We still have horrifying birth defect cases coming in regarding Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, Celexa, Lexapro and Effexor. Which is why I have stopped calling such things "side effects". They are not "side effects", they are effects.
Oh yeah. Some conclusions reached after these many years:
1. Pharmaceutical companies are, today, not pharmaceutical companies; rather they are Public Relations firms. When you compare the amount of $ they spend on marketing, PR, promotion, lobbying, sales, bribing MDs, financing and manipulating CME (continuing medical education), bribing government officials, etc., it far exceeds R&D. Without such "PR" activities, their sales/income would be significantly less than 1/2 of what it currently is. So what activity is providing the bulk of their income: PR, not science. Therefore, their business category should be placed in the PR category.
2. To begin to take effective action against this overall situation, it is necessary to revert certain Congressional actions taken over the past few decades under the advisement and pressure of Big PhRMA. Specifically, cancel the Congressional act which provided for Big PhRMA funding of the FDA in order to finance the approval of new drugs. (This same law included the proviso that NONE of the $ provide by Big PhRMA could be used to fund after-market safety activity by FDA. Duh!) Also cancel the Congressional act which authorized television advertising by Big PhRMA. Only the U.S. and New Zealand allow this.
3. At initial approval of any and all drugs by the FDA, they should be prominently labeled as "Experimental Drugs" and any and all direct to consumer advertising, etc., of the same should be banned for a period of 5 years. MDs can be promoted to by provision of or direction to medical journal articles. MDs regularly contribute to such journals regarding their own clinical experiences, which is the standard route by which the efficacy and problems with drugs is revealed. Any articles in medical journals must require a full disclosure by the author of ANY possible conflict of interest, including $, goods, services, friendships, provision of prostitutes (actual example), etc. provided by anyone which could influence his opinion -- with the hard and fast provision that any failure to reveal a conflict of interest fully will reslt in the suspension or cancellation of the MD's medical license.
4. Any and all studies of a drug must be posted on a website available to anybody and must not be just a short summary but must include all statistical analyses and full explanation of results by the individuals who conducted the study. The individual(s) writing up the study must declare under penalty of perjury that they had full access to ALL the underlying data for the full study from ALL sites involved in the study. Any individual who is found to have perjured him/herself shall be subject to prosecution and upon conviction shall have whatever relevant license they may bear canceled. The complete underlying data for the statistics and analysis posted on the public website shall be forwarded electronically to a repository maintained by the FDA and which is subject to inspection and evaluation at any time by the FDA and/or law enforcement officers at any relevant level.
Big PhRMA has effectively taken over the practice of medicine. The practitioner is (as a workable generality) the pharmaceutical company rather than the physician himself. His/her judgment has been superceded.
Damn, I gotta get to sleep.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 16, 2010 - 03:48am PT
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Ed writes
I've always thought that the best argument against "psychic" powers is based on evolution and selection...
...this is a "materialist's" argument, so for those of you who don't think that mind, consciousness, etc are the result of evolution you can go on to the next post...
let's say that it is possible to "see the future," that it is an attribute of our thought
let's say there is a range of ability to "see the future"
those who have this ability are better able to survive, they know when there is danger, they know where there is food, they know how to mate efficiently, etc...
before too long, this attribute is amplified, people who have more of it can anticipate what is going to happen, and those that do not have it can't, and thus are eliminated at a higher percentage than others
the fact that it is not a major attribute of our abilities indicates that it does not exist at all...
This is silly materialist thinking Ed, which is, of course, incompatible with "Seeing the future." Materialism doesn't have a mechanism for the future to be seen.
Because if it's possible to see in to the future, there is obviously some kind of "Fate" or "Karma" at play which would mean that "seeing" into the future wouldn't necessarily allow somebody to change the future nor avoid their fate, thus negating any evolutionary advantage. I might know that I'm going to die of a heart attack, but that nothing I do will change that.
For example, 2-3 years ago I had an astrologer (who had already made a series of amazing and specific predictions for me in previous years) tell me I would be subject to accidental injury in the fall of 2009 in my shoulder or ankle. I kept my insurance up but I couldn't keep an alien from pulling on Zodiac and leading to me rupturing my achilles tendon. I could have ruptured it stepping out of my front door if it was bound to happen. That same astrologer in India, for $15, had told my friend, whose legal name he did not have, that between her and her brothers, they had 8 kids between them. She told him he was wrong, that there were only 7 kids. He said, no there were 8, but that one of them had died. A light went off in her head, one HAD died and she forgot to add him in the list of kids.
Of course the "deniers" in this thread will skip this "hard to explain" little tidbit, of which I have dozens of such stories, which is why I don't tell them. But don't think it doesn't happen.
Also, the same spiritual skills to "see the future" might require so much dedication that the practitioners would be less likely to reproduce and pass those genes along. No natural selections with out procreation. How many 5.15 climbers have 3-4 kids?
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 16, 2010 - 04:03am PT
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Tbird- "locker...you broke my heart with the woman before that, however."
Locker has a wonderful and beautiful daughter(and also a son)from the "woman before that" FYI...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 09:41am PT
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you will find intelligence evolving again and again in the history of life. no, there haven't been mozarts and einsteins in other species, but we have great brains in dolphins and remarkable intelligence in certain cephalopods. so perhaps psychic ability is like intelligence. it crops up here and there, doesn't necessarily lead to any great superiority or survival mechanism. look at all the extinct hominid lines. their great intelligence didn't lead to survival. evolution is something which happens freely. don't make an engine out of its attributes.
psychic ability isn't necessarily a good thing. i've known of psychics who don't seem to lead happy lives. it's kind of a burden and it deals with strange and difficult territory. it can easily become disruptive to your life if you don't approach it with some circumspection. i've encountered this stuff, yes, but i'm not real comfortable getting immersed in it, and perhaps that in itself requires cultural mechanisms of which we only have vestiges in the west. i think it's foolish to take too much direction from the psychic. it's just a wider way of perceiving, that sixth sense.
there are many reports from those who have been intimate with the aborigines of australia of their ability to communicate over distance psychically. it seems to have developed culturally over time, and it involves both ritual and circumstance. no, it isn't like picking up a telephone.
that review of radin's book seems fairly trivial and focuses on the probability aspect of certain paranormal experimentation. things have moved on from that. as jan says, this stuff has been stigmatized in american academia. she might also be interested in thelma moss's book, the probability of the impossible, if she can get her hands on it. thelma was a legit ucla academic in her day, but it seems her memory is being drummed out of existence now.
religious belief is perfectly acceptable in american society. you can believe in all sorts of miraculous events taking place across the comfortable separation of a few thousand years of spacetime. many scientists have personal religious beliefs, and they seem to have learned to function separately in two different realms. but the minute you try to integrate the two, you're up against all hell. i've taken to rethinking a lot of religion from the point of view of what i know of the paranormal. i think that's the course that holds the most promise.
---------
nice rant, GB. another kind of pseudoscientific orthodoxy being foisted on us.
thanks for that note, tripl. family can be a wonderful thing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 16, 2010 - 10:39am PT
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"This is silly materialist thinking..." Till you present some "practical definitive" application (otherwise evidence) to support your (ages-old) stance, the "material functionality" model (aka materialist model) gets my vote and is the model of choice. -Which (a) has the full support of all modern science, engineering and technology applications behind it; which (b) jives point for point with my own lifelong study and experience in regard to how the world works and how life works.
The mantra: "Material functionalists unite!" The good news: They are. We are. It's just a matter of time.
Food for thought: (1) Those who are not "material functionalists," - those who diss material functionality- disrespect matter, the power of it in structure and function. Too bad. (2) "Attitude is everything." A better atitude: Respect material. Respect material functionality. By learning about it. How it is structured. How it evolves. How its myriad structures - at micro- and macro- levels- beget powerful functionalities.
To the material "deniers," ask yourselves: (1) Do you dis "material functionality" because it implies the lives of living things are finite? because it threatens conventional faiths? (2) How much science and engineering (like control systems engineering) have you had across multiple disciplines to give yourself a substantive broadband HD picture? Answers to these questions might be the solution to the problem.
Challenge yourselves: Leave behind your psychic books, also your 3rd- 14th century theology books, once in awhile, learn about the marvel of the Kreb cycle, actin-myosin mechanics, the photosynthentic pathway, electromagnetic spectrum, radio transmission, information science, analog and digital electronics. Insofar as one learns about these things and a 1,000 more, and how they all tie together to yield a coherent picture, it is attitude-changing.
"Attitude is everything."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 16, 2010 - 11:21am PT
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Tony-
i've taken to rethinking a lot of religion from the point of view of what i know of the paranormal. i think that's the course that holds the most promise.
Welcome back! Care to elaborate on this a bit?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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the point is, most people trust there experience and feelings over analysis... it is certainly evident on this thread
that is a natural, and common reaction, but it doesn't lead to science, and in the end is profoundly anti-intellectual, (the definition of intellect: the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge, from Merriam-Webster online).
these experiences are so powerful that we dress them up with all manner of significance, and construct fantasies regarding their nature, and also vehemently insist that they are "real" when the only demonstration of their reality is our experience, unexamined
it is pointless to argue, those who believe that their experience and feelings are a portal to a universe somehow separate from the "rational" universe, the "paranormal" universe, the "spiritual" universe, a universe that contains omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being(s), simply based on the collective stories of human experience will not abandon that position simply because it is easier to "know" that the experience is real and significant than to actually understand what reality is
weirdly the scientific objectivism is dismissed as leading to existential nihilism, which somehow is worse than being an atheist, amystic or aspirtualist... simply by observing that in the material interpretation of reality, there is no objective meaning, purpose or value to our existence... we just are...
...and it violates our human conceit and our human aesthetic. As humans, we see the universe through our own eyes, and believe it must exist as some human form
As a footnote, hopefully Tony can examine his own reasons for posting to a thread he wanted killed, he is a victim of being a bit of a drama queen and an attention whore which is unavoidable in such forums.... hopefully he doesn't expand to LEB proportions
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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back, jan? i don't think so, but i've had enough of what you might call jacob's ladder-type commerce, and encountered it with others, to know that the spiritual world impinges on the material, is somehow tied to it, and that there are unusual cases of the former affecting the latter. i still agree with the idea, however, that if you meet the buddha on the road you should kill him. interesting how they did that with jesus, huh? but buddha never pretended to die for our sins.
i will concede that all of the fuss around jesus might be due to an "affect" like this, but it isn't what mainstream christianity has cracked it up to be. more than anything, it's a sphere of mythic influence, and one which leaves much to be desired in face of its claims to divinity and the dismal fascism which seems to accompany it.
dr. f, sounds like werner has personal experience of a case at variance with your study. i'd like to hear more from him. people with preconceived notions love to try to stamp things out that don't fit their beliefs. such studies invite study as well. this is from the central clearinghouse of scientific truth, right?
aw, ed, you're not being nice. it works the other way too, i hope you realize. intuition is probably the greatest driving force in scientific breakthrough. i won't ask about your scientific credentials. i'm afraid we might find ourselves in the red light district as well.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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you know ed, a couple days ago it was "tony, you seem to have a lot to say but you never post about climbing". so i came up with the chingadera thread, and i guess i kinda have to thank you for that.
if you want to know the short story, i am enough of a professional writer and editor to have made my living at it in the past. i'm self-taught in the sciences, but have done a share of scientific reporting and have also been involved in science-related issues like transportation technology. my graduate education is in folkloristics, a sub-sub category of anthropology and very much related to issues on this thread here.
i like to chat online, usually one-to-one. i wouldn't be on supertopo if i hadn't first come to help my friend ben chapman, who i think was taking uncalled-for heat over the situation at echo cliff down here. but you know what? i've wound up having tons of fun. it's like the old RCS campfires, only you don't have to wait for the weekend. i wonder if you've allowed your fun instinct to atrophy, you old coot.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 16, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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Word for the day: ideomachy.
ideomachy: (1a) battle of ideas, (1b) war of ideas.
Who besides me thinks ideomachy is a good thing, e.g., in advancing the "practice" of living?
Or, perhaps I am the lone wolf.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 16, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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Ed
The state of science at this time does not have tool subtle enough to quantify the spiritual world, although the direction of science moves closer and closer all the time.
Thousands of years ago, mystics stated the universe is comprised of the same vibrating energy. Science didn't believe that, but came around.
Even all this "Dark Matter" stuff, now allegedly the most common stuff that exists, was unknown a short time ago and we still barely know squat about it. So it's the height of hubris to say much except "We don't know" and maybe "Ancient religions are full of superstition and cultural relics" regarding a spiritual world. Science ain't there yet.
And while you appear to like to retain an air of empiricism, the experience of the astrologer knowing the exact number of kids that I stated in my last post is an example of a kind of denial. When something is unexplainable but that plainly contradicts our worldview in a non-subjective way, we just forget it. You have to assume I'm either nuts or something is afoot. But being nuts like that doesn't suit me. I'm not making this up and I have a friend who could correlate this story. Nobody within 6000 miles, not even my friend, had the right answer to the question until the astrologer pointed out the error. He didn't have her name. He didn't know she was coming in.
But let's just ignore that.
The human capacity for denial is probably greater in the religious than in the scientific, but I promise you, a unmistakable spiritual event could beat you over the head, and you could decide to ignore it,
Peace
karl
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hanger on
Social climber
Groveland ca
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Jul 16, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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I personally don't, and never did. but as for a serious answer to a serrious question, look for a book called "God is not One". A terrific (in my opinion) short overview of the world's religions.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 16, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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Good post Ed...
To many, 'faith' (believing despite the lack evidence, or even despite direct evidence to the contrary) is a virtue, above all else...
"You just gotta have 'faith'."
So, the more one believes (devotion), despite contradicting evidence, the more virtuous they believe they are.
It is a circle that feeds itself... The more one ignores and denies to 'keep the faith', the more virtuous they are, and thus, the more deserving of God's love and grace.
As an example... Fundamentalists / Creationists, believe they are MUCH more virtuous in their beliefs than are Catholics, who acceopt an old Earth, evolution, and the Big Bang. So much so, that many Fundies believe Catholics are going to hell.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Tony writes:
intuition is probably the greatest driving force in scientific breakthrough
I've been thinking a lot about this lately and that has lead me to the idea that what we call "intuition" is non-conscious thinking... where I would take the concept of "conscious" to mean a thought process that can be communicated...
...in most important scientific discoveries, intuition has nothing to do with it, as those scientific ideas are "non-intuitive" in the normal sense of intuition, that is, they escape a quick insight for insight that takes a long time to develop. Often, at least as scientists, we are aware that somehow we're "thinking" about things when we aren't conscious of it, and at some point this process rises to a level of solution which alerts the "consciousness" of a possible solution, which can be accessed in all its logical steps... That moment of alert is quick, but the work leading up to it may not be.
For a long time now I've stopped saying things like "quantum mechanics is intuitive" because it is not... the modern meaning drift of "intuitive" is that it is something that agrees with how we think it should be.... is Mac OS X intuitive? some people think so, and Apple certainly states it as a goal... it isn't for a lot of people.
You use of the word "intuition" is, in my opinion, incorrect when describing the scientific process leading to discovery.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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huffcuss, it's been thought of before. the catholic church calls it polemics. hegel called it a dialectic. your use of the "mach" root, i guess, derives from the greek "machairan" for knife or sword. you're mixing latin and greek roots here, but that's okay. however it brings to mind a common greek proverb, "me machairan paidio"--don't give a knife to a child.
funny thing, hanger on, i drove past the valley sikh temple the other day and the note on the marquee said "god is one". got me also thinking how god isn't really.
geez, locker, you certainly seem to attract 'em. funny how great women aren't really drawn to good looks in men. my wife is a rare exception.
ed, you're defining "intuitive" to suit your purposes. the big breakthroughs in science--einstein's being perhaps the most spectacular--come from lots of little things not quite fitting into the big picture, these little things bothering a great mind enough so he, or she, begins to start thinking outside the box. in physics, the progression has been spectacular--newton, faraday/maxwell, einstein, bohr right on einstein's heels, then modern speculation on string theory, supersymmetry, stuff way over my head, maybe yours too. my favorite book on the far-out recent stuff is gordon kane's supersymmetry, and his notation about mathematics, an equally far-out field, tells a lot. physicists often find, several years afterward, that a breakthrough in mathematics applies to problems at the cutting edge of physics. i can handle math, but if you bump me, i have to learn it again.
my climbing mentor was a professor of theoretical physics, and i'd ask him about quarks once in awhile. this was back in the late 70s. it was like setting off firecrackers. he hated quarks. his thing was forces, a different way of describing the same phenomena. the existence of quarks, he said, just had to do with a few important reputations in the field of physics, a lot of politics.
fast forward to gordon kane's book, and quarks are now considered the "standard model". but i think dick ingraham would still stick to his guns--it's a model, and suspiciously close to the planetary model of the atom, taking all of that modeling to the next deeper level. is that a good idea? only time will tell.
i guess the only thing that bugs me about the science cheerleaders here is that they're not rolling up their sleeves and signing on as janitors at fermilab. you really have to be around that stuff to get it into your reality. i'm hamstrung at the point of electronics--not part of my real world. the best physics programs, like that at cambridge university, have full-time demonstrators, people who make their living trying to bring this mountain of research and theory into a reality for the next generation to grapple with.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 16, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
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Nope. Gotta get your facts straight, ideomachy is entirely greek, not a hybrid like hydrocarbon or television. Also, "it's been thought of before," what's that mean? ideomachy was simply put forth as a word for battle of ideas, that's all, you ramble sometimes, but that is a standard of the internet, I'm trying to get used to it...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 16, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Ed notes:
Often, at least as scientists, we are aware that somehow we're "thinking" about things when we aren't conscious of it, and at some point this process rises to a level of solution which alerts the "consciousness" of a possible solution, which can be accessed in all its logical steps... That moment of alert is quick, but the work leading up to it may not be.
This is also a perfect expression of how intuitive insight following meditation works as well. It too normally involves years of effort before this stage is reached.
The difference is that the scientist is applying his/her non verbal mind to the material world while the meditator is almost always applying it to the personal psychological or social world and is concerned with the ethics of the insight as well.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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Gary cleans his glasses...wait, am I reading correctly, do I read scientists discussing/considering phenomena that can't be scientifically proven?
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Jul 16, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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It's like I'm sayin' I.D. you gotta believe in Science same at the Bible. It's all someone else's data unless you're doing the research yourself. (or in the case of the Bible, you had to be there).
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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at least I am defining "intuition" rather than leaving it something for people to think of what it is not...
...I don't presume to know what was going on in Einstein's or anyone else's mind.. I don't think this stuff comes in via the astral plane... and I am sure that physicists and other scientists aren't that aware of what is going on in their heads, nor do they care necessarily...
when asked how he could have believed the voices symptomatic of his schizophrenia when he ha created such wonderful mathematics, John Nash replied "they came from the same place" referring to both the mathematics and the voices...
Tony, you can take the rather romantic vision of the "eureka" moment as an icon of the scientist and the scientific process, thus doing violence to the idea of intellectualism and rationalism... that would be a pretty orthodox, shallow and unoriginal narrative. But much more appealing to the popular idea of "hitting it big" in Las Vegas. Funny, when I fly into Vegas for business everyone on the plane around me asks "are you going to gamble." They can't believe it when I not only say no, but point out that the odds of winning are stacked heavily against you.
I don't have a problem with people spending their money on entertainment, which gambling is a form of, but to have that sort of world view infuse the national imagination... it is disturbing.
Karl, how many times has something been "predicted" that did not happen? do you have any idea of how often you'd expect random coincidence to happen? Hey, if you go to Vegas, maybe you'll hit the jackpot! Maybe your stars are lucky!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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I was no different in that I was searching for that quiet place, peace, order, contentment, comfort, freedom and ultimately Love. Locker, and others that have been there, you know what it is like to have experienced this tranquil feeling with a loved one. Let's put science aside here, please Ed (wink), take our masks off and be transparent with one another for a moment. Why do I believe in that there is a God? Because for one, there's only ONE book out there that lays claim to be "the Way, the Truth, and the Life." Jesus said that, and He also said, "the Truth shall make you free." So, I'm looking for that freedom? Bam! I found the answer!
Locker, that feeling that you experienced...I found it dude! My wife has found it too, and my new five year old is learning about this incredible freedom as well. Damn, how I wish I had that Love at his age! Don't get me wrong for I don't live in this bliss for I still suffer like the all of you. I just know that I have found the Truth and I continue to expand my knowledge, just in a different direction now for it is He that gives me this freedom and this is His system of management now, not mine. That is why I give glory to God not patting myself on the back.
Peace to you all.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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huff, i'm not going to pretend to be an expert scholar in classical languages, although i do have some experience and reference for comparing classical and modern greek. "idea" in classical greek meant "form", in the visual sense, and it derived from the verb for "seeing". in latin, "idea" seems to have meant "idea", as a construct of the mind. same word, different meanings, and you're using the latin meaning, which would make "ideomachy" a lot like "television". (haha--unintentional implication!) greek did not come "before" latin, despite the often misguided habit of looking for greek "roots". both were related contemporaneous languages in the indoeuropean family.
i'd suggest taking a different tack entirely. your resort to the classical belies your desire to cloak your nascent belief system in the legitimacy of academic traditionalism. would've worked well 150 years ago. it's really not hip any more. look at "google" and "quark"--dynamite words of whimsical genesis. it's the wave of the future. we can help you with this on ST.
ed, i can only suggest that you spend a little more time studying the sciences you don't know everything about and a little less worrying about the mental processes involved. eclecticism is good for the soul. francis crick's move from physics to biology is an example of what can happen.
"doing violence to the idea of intellectualism and rationalism".
pardon me for being the whore in church. can anyone else see why i tried to kill the god thread?
illusion dweller, you don't come close to being important on this thread. you come and go about every two weeks and have nothing to contribute except your wearying efforts at proselytization. if you were here every day like gobee, we'd probably trip you up once in awhile. just a week ago, we caught gobee in the sound of one hand stroking.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Don't think you're not in my prayers over those two weeks Tony! A good kneeling over the toilet to puke out some of that cynicism might just do you some good. I'll wait here while you go and take care of that...go, get it out your system old man.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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Tony,
"He must increase, but I must decrease." - John 3:30.
Thank God for not giving me a place here!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
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Trip me up once in a while? Lol, where have you been? Ahh, memory failing you old-timer? They don't call it "olds"heimers for nothin'!
You know, I use to deal with "olds"heimers patients on an occasional basis and treated them with respect even with their cynicism. It wasn't their fault though and it was quite sad to have watched a grandmother deteriorate from the illness.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 16, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
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Dinosaurs and humans lived and frolicked together in the land of Hanalee.
Puff the Magic Dragon.
NOPE!
Nothing make believe about the Creationists.
They really DO believe that CHILDISH CRAP.
Why, they even have their own "museum" in Kentucky, where adults AND children
can gaze in rapt wonder at the PROOF of Creationism.
Yes, it is true. Humans and Dinosaurs lived TOGETHER on earth only a couple thousand years ago!
OR, take the time to stroll through biblical HISTORY in the GARDEN>
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 16, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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dfrost7
climber
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Jul 16, 2010 - 10:13pm PT
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If I may, the OP wasn't does God exist. It is "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)
Is JDF really inquiring why I believe? I can say. It's a valid question. It always interests me the conversation is raised, and argued by non believers. But, the original question isn't does God exist.
So, try to kill the God thread, though you may, it seems the non believers believe enough to keep wanting the question settled. The fact remains, one cannot disprove the existence of God.
This is, fundamentally, one of the most important questions asked by any critically thinking mind.
Again, for every believer, you are looking at a once non believer. So, it is a very good question, "What has brought you to this belief?"
You only come to belief in God from non belief. The moment the Living God knocks on your door, you know it. Period. You have a choice. No one must believe. It's your choice. Please don't assume people who believe are non thinking, non intellectual bone heads. It takes faith, not stupidity.
It also takes faith not to believe.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 16, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
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The Land of Hanalee.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 16, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
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Yeah, people probably co-existed with dinosaurs...
Just not on this planet...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 16, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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Yes, that Norton is just AWFUL, and SNARKY too.
He is a BAD person who just makes me SO angry.
I just HATE IT when Norton makes fun of the Creationists.
Nobody but ME should be allowed to say what they want on THIS thread.
This is a GOD thread, so you all better believe what I believe.
Otherwise, you are SNARKY and a BAD person too. Boo hoo.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 16, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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Dr.F.-
The journey from belief to non belief is a common theme for many people who were forced or at least strongly guided, toward a particular religion. I always find in my comparative religion classes, that the most adamant antireligious sentiments come out of the students raised in the most religious homes.
Subsequently I have come to think that the greatest gift my parents gave me was no religion. They told me that if I ever got interested, I could go around to different churches and make up my own mind. Of course they were biased, favoring only mainstream Protestant churches which happen to be my least favorite form of Christianity after fundamentalism. However, when I went to university the world of religion was open to me and I wasn't bigoted one way or the other. A true blessing which evolved into a lifelong interest in the subject.
One thing we always have to deal with in class, is the issue of separating one's feelings about the people who forced religion on them from the religion itself and religion as an institution from ideas of God. The more bitter the experience with either parents or religion, the harder this is to do.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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Cragman is right.
It is a scientifically proven fact that there were dinosaurs on earth at the
exact place his father found human footprints.
Only complete fools say that the last dinosaur went extinct some 60 million years ago.
Everyone knows that humans were created in the Garden of Eden 2000 years ago.
This means that there were dinosaurs living here on earth just 2000 years ago
And here is further proof. Picture taken by my wife, a renowned teacher.
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 17, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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As I said in my extensive "rant" above:
"Over the years, when there was a pause in the barrage of legal documents being thrown into and around the trenches of the war (and going up aginst Big PhRMA is a f*cking WAR!), I sometimes had the wishful thought that some REAL scientists from the "pure" sciences and engineering fields would step in and examine and raise a ruckus about the despicable state of the "science" which so dramatically impacts the well-being and sanity of the population. It never happened."
Ed -- Where is the scientific possee that is willing to take responsibility for cleaning up the un-scientific "Deadwood" that is rampant out here? It's one thing to criticize people who claim to experience or know that which is not susceptible to scientific verification but whom are at the same time leading good lives and helping, not harming those around them. What about those people who claim the mantle of science with all the medals and identity cards and a long list of their publications but whose "science" is what their masters want it to be and around whom the broken lives and dead bodies pile deeply?
- - - - - - - - -
In August of 1969, I balanced on the edge of a 30' cliff far above Boulder, Colorado, watching the full moon rise across the plains. I looked at logical progression of where I would end up if I continued my path in the climbing world. Not dead but living in a nice place away from the churning foolishness of humanity, respected for my past achievements on rock and mountain, a symbol who had the trappings of happiness but was not. I had been getting myself out of the tumult of the City (NYC) for 13 years (summer camp and relatives in the Berkshires, cave exploring and finally rock climbing). I decided to head back into the churn because I knew that, personally, I was running from it.
Climbing cliffs or mountains is a relatively pristine game that gets one away from the churning foolishness of humanity and which can be welcome relief for people interested strongly in understanding, whether of the physical world or the immaterial world. That churning foolishness is the challenge, humanity is the challenge. Failure to apply what one has gained in knowledge to quieting the churning and alleviating foolishness is a failure in responsibility equivalent to saying "not my problem" when it is all of our central problem.
In general, the "churn" is composed of people who, in micro and macro ways, are working on doing something to help humanity, people who are working on screwing humanity and people who are just churning. There are also people who get far enough away from the churn that they can hear the birds chirp and see the stars so glorious in the black sky. I understand it and feel it.
Mankind recovers from catastrophes and goes on to be his worst enemy even as his material knowledge and application expands, even as his political, philosophical and spiritual tenets become more "humane".
Knowledge, good sense and even wisdom are possessed by quite a few individuals. When the society ceases to reflect these sufficiently, when people who would screw humanity for whatever motivation come to dominate enough of the social fabric, and when those with knowledge, good sense and even wisdom retreat before the tide, the remote glories are like prisons surrounded by bars of insanity.
In this computation it seems logical that the solution lies in those with knowledge, good sense and even wisdom, in which case the only thing that would guarantee failure is for them to retreat.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Locker, how many times have I told you to stop beating this dead horse?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 17, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Cragman-
If your father thinks that's what he has found, then he needs to show the evidence to a professional paleontologist at the University of Arizona before he makes a fool of himself and makes the religion he's trying to uphold look backwards and ignorant.
Alternative explanations that come to mind are:
1) Deliberate hoax (he could be set up by either anti-religious people trying to make him look stupid (as in the Piltdown Hoax) or by well intentioned but misguided religionists.
2) He is falsely identifying either the dinasaur or the human footprints (seeing what he wants to see).
3) He could be looking at a now extinct animal footprint ( a large jila monster type lizard for example) that he thinks is a dinasaur.
4) He thinks they are side by side but the rock they are found in is from two different eras (volcanic action or flash floods for example) but look the same to a non geologist.
Please, Christianity can stand on its own without the use of falsified science!
I'm also sure that your father is more useful to himself and God by ministering to people in their need than publishing fake science. Please don't let him ruin his legacy of service by publishing nonsense!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 17, 2010 - 12:50am PT
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GBrown -
Where is the scientific possee that is willing to take responsibility for cleaning up the un-scientific "Deadwood" that is rampant out here? It's one thing to criticize people who claim to experience or know that which is not susceptible to scientific verification but whom are at the same time leading good lives and helping, not harming those around them. What about those people who claim the mantle of science with all the medals and identity cards and a long list of their publications but whose "science" is what their masters want it to be and around whom the broken lives and dead bodies pile deeply?
I don't think that science and scientists have any more or less claim for the horrendous behavior humans seem to be capable of visiting on their fellow humans.
As far as "deadwood" well, it is dead, meaning unproductive... the tree of science knowledge grows on... who has time to trim what time will do itself.
I don't have a problem with people doing well to other people for what ever reason. But I don't have to believe in their reason, and if you ask me what my thoughts are on the topic, I'll tell you.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2010 - 01:22am PT
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GBrown -- "In this computation it seems logical that the solution lies in those with knowledge, good sense and even wisdom, in which case the only thing that would guarantee failure is for them to retreat."
Yes, and they never ever retreat.
Thet just become invisible to those in delusion ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 17, 2010 - 01:52am PT
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Pate-
I've always believed that if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Even people in elite positions should respect the average tax payer who provides their salary.
Talking to a real scientist can be very helpful to people who don't understand how it works. Not to mention it would provide an interesting teaching prop to the paleontologist who had to deal with it.
As for your garden gnomes. For you, I suggest a good psychologist!
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 17, 2010 - 02:06am PT
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With just a little work Werner, you could write in Haikus.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 17, 2010 - 05:11pm PT
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This is an interesting but longish piece. I don't even go into these kinds of articles trying to determine if the scientist (in this case) is right or not - this one has some quackery, no doubt - but only as an exercise in reviewing new ideas. I find this one interesting because the author is not rigidly married to the a priori assumption that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. I don't know one way of the other, but the discussion fascinates me.
A QUANTUM MECHANICAL MODEL OF THE BRAIN AND CONSCIOUSNESS
DR. GRANVILLE DHARMAWARDENA
UNIVERSITY OF COLOMBO.
Psychologists often speak of the mind and the body as two separate entities for convenience, but most acknowledge that they are intimately entwined. Yet none knows exactly how or how intimately. So the mind body problem keeps stubbornly resisting a definite solution. Philosopher John Searle
(Mills Professor of Philosophy, University of California, Berkley) says that today's philosophers are reluctant to tackle such big problems as how people have been trying to understand their relationship to the universe.
All these refer to the elusive relationship between the body and the mind referred to more generally as the brain mind problem. Brain mind relationship has baffled mankind for a very long time. One main reason for this is that it was not considered as a candidate for scientific study until recently.
Psychology and related sciences were able to continue for many years by either ignoring the brain entirely or at best treating it as a black box whose rules of operation could be understood without reference to its internal contents or composition.
Human brain without doubt is the most complex organ in the universe. It is physical and biological. Therefore it has to be amenable to scientific probing without the intervention of such considerations as the Godels theorem, which states that there are statements in mathematical systems which are true but cannot be proven within those systems.
Consciousness on the other hand is neither physical nor biological. Therefore it is a more elusive subject to deal with and Godel's considerations may have a role to play there. Attempts to understand brain and consciousness have been mostly based on restrictive Newtonian classical science and exclusively in the materialist realm.
Although the powers of understanding of human senses and the scope of Newtonian science are limited to three spatial dimensions, the scope of our universe is not limited to three dimensions. Many of the natural phenomena happening within our universe transcend the three dimension scene. Therefore no competent modern psychobiologist considers it viable to assume that the mechanisms of operation of the brain and consciousness remain imprisoned within the confines of Isaac Newton's three dimensional material universe.
Attempts to understand the brain-mind problem within Newton's universe over centuries have introduced divisions and concepts that have become detrimental to having a new look at it from the point of view of modern science, more specifically quantum mechanics.
Intellectual acrobatics within the domain of classical science to find solutions to a problem that transcends the limits of classic science cannot yield any valid solution.
In trying to interpret the mechanisms of operation of the human brain and developing a model for consciousness that explain all practical observations, it is necessary first of all to jettison traditional baggage and clean up the scene. It is also necessary to enlist all the observed properties of the brain and consciousness and ensure that the developed model explains all of them.
There is general agreement that the seat of consciousness is the brain. We can go along with this concept. Philosopher Colin McGinn (Professor of Philosophy at Rutgers University, New Jersey the USA) introduces a property P of the brain in virtue of which the brain is the basis of consciousness and a theory T, referring to P, which fully explains the dependence of conscious states on brain states (mechanical materialism). He adds that if we knew T, then we have a constructive solution to the mind-body problem.
It is reasonable to consider a property P of the brain , but it is not possible at this stage to shut the possibility that, as Nobel Laureate Neurobiologist Sir John Eccles points out, "the scope of consciousness may not remain limited within the confines of the human skull." This is specially so because many of our practical observations and those of many others clearly show that consciousness at times can remain completely disembodied. We can hence, focus our attention on understanding three factors, viz., the nature of consciousness, the property P of the brain that enables consciousness to operate within the brain, and a model that explains the behavior of the brain and consciousness as practically observed.
The evolved, material brain has received much attention over a very long period from both classical and modern scientists. The classical science explanation of the structure and the mechanisms of operation of the brain is easily accessible through medical and biology text books. The brain consists of about 1.3 kg. of gray matter which is made up of dozens of billions of specialized cells known as neurons which have electrical properties akin to those of transistor circuits in computers. Like in transistor circuits these cells are interconnected and there are trillions of such neuron-neuron connections in the brain. Like in transistor circuits electrical signals are transmitted through neurons by unidirectional electrical pulses which are excited, modulated or inhibited by pulses in other neurons, and passed on to other neurons.
However there are differences. In transistor circuits electrical pulses are transmitted across the circuits by the migration of electrons at an enormous velocity of half the speed of light, where as in neurons, electrical pulses are transmitted by the movement of ions which are much heavier than electrons, at a much slower maximum speed of 120 meters per second. This speed is not fast enough to account for the speed of human actions. The interneuron links are established through biochemical junctions, through which signals are passed from one neuron to another by the release of ions. In transistor circuits all connections are exclusively electrical.
Brain is the most complex and most important (from hierarchy point of view) organ in the human body and it is a voracious consumer of energy, consuming ten times more energy per unit mass as compared to other body organs. Failure to supply energy to the brain for a few minutes can cause substantial brain damage and ultimate brain death. The variety of different proteins expressed in neurons is about 30,000. This is greater than in any other body organ.
More than fifteen years ago, the importance of understanding the structure and mechanisms of operation of the brain prompted President George Bush Sr. to proclaim the 1990's as the decade of the brain. EEG (Electro
Encephelography) was the original technique used to study brain mechanisms. Three newer and more effective techniques, PET ( Positron Emission Tomography ), MRI ( Magnetic Resonance Imaging ) and Magneto Encephelography have come into use in studying brain mechanisms during the last twenty years. As a result we understand the functioning of the brain much better today than in 2000.
The slow electrical pulses moving at a maximum speed of 120 mps may, perhaps, be adequate to account for some of the involuntary functions inside the human body. But they are certainly not adequate to account for the speed of human activities that involve computing and the mind. The similarities between the computer circuits and the brain cells have driven brain researchers to construct computer models for the brain. Initially they tried serial computers and then to account for the speed parallel computers came in. Today computer models dominate most brain research.
However computer models are many orders of magnitude slower than needed to account for the speed of human beings. A Neurologist has calculated that if the brain was a standard serial or a parallel computer it would take more time than the age of the universe to perform all the necessary calculations associated with just one perceptual event. But if the brain were a quantum computer, it would try out all the various possible combinations of data arrangement at once and thus unify its experience.
Many who research on the brain-mind problem proceed with the a priori assumption that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. They consider consciousness as another property, emerging as a result of P from trillions of electrical pulses shuttling across the brain. According to this assumption consciousness is only a property and not an entity. John Searle introduces consciousness as a natural biological phenomenon that does not fit comfortably into either of the traditional categories of mental and physical, caused by lower level micro processors in the brain. However on the basis of practical observations made by us and many others we have to reject these assumptions and regard consciousness as a non-material entity capable of independent existence.
Observations on OBE (Out of Body Experience) and NDE (Near Death Experience) suggest, however inconclusively, that while the body is in an anaesthetized or inactive state, consciousness can seemingly remain disembodied, observe events from outside the body and later relocalize in the brain - a thoroughly unproved but often reported phenomenon. After the body renormalizes, the person can relate what his consciousness observed and heard from an out of body location while the body was inactive.
While preposterous on the face of it, it is a fascinating thought experiment to consider consciousness as a non material phenomenon capable of independent existence and not a property - literal ghost in the machine. Ergo, for the moment, consciousness is not emergent. What if it remained localized in the human brain and interacted with the brain through the property P of the brain and thereby control the activities of the human body. Whenever the property P collapses consciousness can leave the brain and go into an independent floating existence.
This behavior of consciousness is akin to the behavior of an electron in and out of an atom. Electron which is a quantum entity can remain localized inside an atom by quantum mechanical interaction with the electromagnetic field around the atomic nucleus, which itself is quantum in nature, so long as the energy of the atom's quantum state it occupies matches the energy possessed by the electron. Whenever the energy of the electron does not match, it has to shift to another matching state or leave the atom and start floating as a free electron. In this case the property that localizes the electron inside the atom, the nature of the electron and the relevant atomic model are well known. All these are quantum in nature.
Let us consider the nature of consciousness, the property P of the brain and a model that satisfactorily solves the brain-mind problem.
Nature of Consciousness
Defining consciousness has been considered as a frightfully difficult problem. Does the word " Consciousness " have one single meaning or does it have two meanings like the words " bank " and " palm ". In my mother tongue, Sinhala, and in Sanskrit there are two separate words with separate meanings relevant to this problem. Words " Smruthi " and " Vignana " in Sanskrit have two separate meanings and the English word " Consciousness " is a common word that covers both these meanings.
The "Vignana " meaning of consciousness refers to the non-material entity which is capable of independent existence and interacts with the brain through the property P. Let me use the word " Consciousness " to mean this entity. The "Smruthi" meaning of consciousness refers to a state created by the interaction of the above entity with properly functioning brain and sense organs. It is what a person loses when he/she is anesthetized or receives a hard blow on the head. Let me use the term " S-consciousness " to refer to this state.
Quantum Physicist Danah Zohar describes consciousness as something that includes general capacity for awareness and purposive response. By this description she accepts the above two meanings of the word consciousness. Roger Penrose refers to these as active consciousness and passive consciousness.
When a person is awake information about his/her surroundings is presented to his/her brain by his/her sense organs. The brain processes and computes millions of bits of information presented to it every second by the sensory organs and presents the processed information to consciousness.
Through this process consciousness remains aware of the surroundings and we say that the person is s-conscious of his/her surroundings. When this link between consciousness and the surroundings is interrupted and consciousness is not able to be aware of events in its surroundings we say that the person is s-unconsciousness. It has been found that when a stimulus is presented to a sensory organ of an anaesthetized person all brain processes relevant to that stimulus takes place as if he/she is not anesthetized. Physicist and Pharmacologist Susan Greenfield ( Professor of Pharmacology at Oxford University and Professor of Physics at Gresham College, London ) points out that none has yet pointed to a single event that occurs in awake but not in anaesthetized brain.
Hence when a person becomes s-unconscious, the property P breaks down and severs the link between consciousness and the brain.
In that state it is possible that consciousness can disembody and observe events in the surroundings directly without the help of sensory organs, keep them in memory and relate what was seen, after consciousness returned to the body and re-established links with the brain. According to our observations the disembodied consciousness possesses visual, auditory and olfactory senses.
It has been shown using such techniques as PET and MRI that the above process of receiving data from a stimulus by a sensory organ, transmitting them to the brain, computing and processing the data and passing the processed data to consciousness, can be reversed by hypnotizing a person. When a hypnotherapist suggests, for example, that he/she is seeing red light to a hypnotized subject, all above processes take place in the brain as if the subject is actually seeing red light.
The ability of a person to describe what his/her consciousness had observed or heard while it is in a disembodied state makes us to believe that memory is, at least partly, non-material.
Several decades ago David Bohm pointed out many striking similarities between the behavior of our thought processes and that of some quantum processes. For example while entertaining a vague train of thought, the act of concentrating on one in order to bring it into better focus, changes the original sequence. Like electrons governed by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, which are never the same again once they have been looked at or measured, a thought which has been highlighted through attention is different from the vague musing which preceded it. The focused thought has " position " like the particle aspect of an electron's two sided nature, whereas the vague musing has " momentum " like the electron's wave aspect. We can never experience both simultaneously. This is a characteristic feature of a quantum entity.
Quantum systems are essentially unified, so are our thought processes. David Bohm says, " Thought processes and quantum systems are analogous in that they cannot be analyzed too much in terms of distinct elements, because the " intrinsic " nature of each element is not a property existing separately from and independently of other elements but is instead a property that arises partially from its relation with other elements."
Danah Zohar analyses the quantum like behaviour and concludes that consciousness functions, according to the laws of quantum mechanics.
We can conclude that consciousness is a quantum mechanical entity that can have an independent existence. It can localize in the human brain when the property P provides the necessary quantum mechanical base conducive for it to interact with and function in the brain. When the property P breaks down, consciousness takes flight and starts floating. It takes away with it at least a part of the contents of the memory. It possesses the ability to acquire visual, auditory and olfactory information in spite of the fact that there are no sense organs associated with it.
Property P of the Brain that Establishes Brain Consciousness Interaction
In most attempts to solve the mind-body problem, it is assumed that computers can be used to simulate or model mental and neuro-biological processes in the brain and this can explain consciousness. Roger Penrose ( Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics, Oxford University ) points out that quantum mechanics and Godel's theorem makes us to reject these assumptions.
John Searle points out that a brain made of neurons is aware of what it is dealing with whereas a computer modeled to simulate some activity of the brain cannot be aware of what is being dealt with inside it. Penrose points out that there is something in the physical actions in the brain that evokes awareness. This aspects is beyond computation. Also it has been pointed out that anything that is infallible cannot be intelligent. Computer being infallible cannot be intelligent. A computer model of the brain cannot explain the distinctive indivisibility of our thoughts, perceptions and feelings.
In most standard brain models, mind is believed to emerge from trillions of signals shuttling across billions of neurons in the brain. A brain structured on mechanical principles cannot account for the property P that can create s-consciousness by interacting with consciousness.
Recent EEG experiments carried out by a team of physicists at Southampton University (England ) confirms that thought processes are quantum in nature. Here the effect of measuring right and left brain activity on a left brain task was tested. They found that measuring left brain EEG improves performance whereas measuring right brain EEG disrupts it. In another experiment it has been found that measuring the left brain EEG makes a right hand activity more accurate.
The major stumbling block in solving the brain mind problem had been how does the brain-mind bind together millions of disparate neuron activities into an experience of a perceptual whole. How does the " I " or " Self " or the perceived wholeness of my world emerge from a system consisting of so many parts, billions of neurons. What creates the " Oneness " or the " Globality " of thought processes ? What creates individuality and " I " ness or " self "? What creates feelings, free will and creativity?
No mechanistic system consisting of separate interacting parts could give rise to above. What are the structures in the brain that create the property P which grant us access to the quantum realm?
It has become clear that to explain the property P one has to consider the most highly ordered and highly unified structures possible in the universe. The structure that possesses both characters ,the most highly ordered and most highly unified is the Bose-Einstein condensate.
In classical science the most ordered structure that we can find is the Crystal. Crystals are rigid, immovable structures. In Bose-Einstein condensates, the quantum properties allow both a " fluid " order and a high degree of unity. Each particle in a Bose-Einstein condensate fills all the space and all the time in whatever container that holds the condensate. Many of their characteristics are correlated. They behave holistically as one. The condensate acts as one single particle. There is no " noise " or interference between separate parts. This is why super fluids and super conductors have their special frictionless qualities and laser becomes so coherent. Super conductors , super fluids and lasers are Bose-Einstein condensates. The photon of a laser beam overlap their boundaries and behaves as one single photon and the whole system can be described by a single equation.
Super conductors, super fluids and lasers are either very low temperature or very high energy systems. Super conductors and super fluids loose their quantum coherence long before they reach room temperature. Quantum coherence at body temperature in body cells was found by Herbert Frolich. Prior to that quantum physciscist Fritz Popp discovered that biological tissue emits a weak glow when stimulated at the right energy levels .
Cell walls of biological tissue contain countless proteins and fat molecules which are electrical dipoles. When a cell is at rest these dipoles are out of phase and arrange themselves in a haphazard way. But when they are stimulated they begin to oscillate or jiggle intensely and broadcast a tiny microwave signal. Frolich found that when the energy flowing through the cell reaches a certain critical level, all the cell wall molecular dipoles line up and come into phase. They oscillate in unison as though they are suddenly coordinated. This emergent quantum field is a Bose-Einstein condensate and has holistic properties common to any quantum field.
Dana Zohar points out that ion channel oscillations in neurons are quantum phenomena which generate a Frolich like coherent electric field. There are ion channels ( protein molecules ) lining the membrane walls of individual neurons, which open or close in response to electrical fluctuations resulting from stimulation. They act like gates to let Sodium , Potassium and other ions through.
They are of a size to be subject to quantum fluctuations and superposition. Each channel as it oscillates generates a tiny electric field. When a large number of ion channels ( there are 10 million in each neuron ) open and close in unison, as they do when stimulated, the whole neuron fires or oscillates and a large scale electric field is generated across the neuron. Certain neurons act as pace makers. When a pacemaker neuron oscillates in response to a stimulation whole bundles of neurons oscillate with it. A finding by a neurobiologist that when a person sees an object all neurons in the Cerebral Cortex , associated with that perceptual object, oscillates in unison regardless of their location in the brain.
Danah Zohar suggests that the original ion channel oscillations are quantum phenomena which, as in Frolich systems , generates a coherent quantum electric field. It is a Bose-Einstein condensate. Existence of such large scale coherent electrical fields across the brain explains how a large number of disparate and distant neurons can integrate their information to produce a holistic picture. The proof fairly recently that nonlocal ( instantaneous or faster than light ) quantum correlations exists between particles apparently separated in space and time has helped us to understand these effects.
The crucial distinguishing feature of Bose-Einstein condensate is that many parts which go to make up the ordered system not only behave as a whole , but they become whole. There identities merge and overlap in such a way that they lose their individuality entirely. This is a quantum property. Such a large quantum synchronicity exists in and accounts for the special properties of lasers, super conductors and super fluids. Only this type of quantum correlated condensed state could explain the unbroken wholeness of thought process.
The property P of the brain which is the non local quantum correlate, or the Bose-Einstein condensate behaves as above . It creates a unity from the diverse bits of information drawing them to a meaningful whole. The millions of sensory data from sense organs received every moment are chanelled to various disparate areas of the brain and processed by the computing facility of the brain. Consciousness receives this processed information through P and creates a holistic scene.
It is this integration of all the processed bits of information to create a one whole that creates the identity as a person , the self or the " I " ness. Here P is the coherent non local quantum correlation of the brain and it is an emergent property.
Model of The Body-Brain-and Consciousness
From the above considerations it is possible to propose a three tier model for Body- Brain and consciousness, where the brain is sandwitched between the body and consciousness. Here the brain-body link is mechanical and it is fairly well understood from classical science considerations. Body and brain operate in Einstein's space-time domain where non locality is forbidden.
The brain consciousness link is established by the property P which links the brain to the quantum domain where nonlocality can operate . Consciousness is a non material entity in the quantum domain that is capable of independent existence. Consciousness can remain localized in the brain so long as the emergent quantum property P is functional , just as an electron which is a quantum entity can remain localized in an atom so long as the energy of the electron matches the quantum state it occupies. Whenever the property P breaks down or becomes weak consciousness can leave the brain and take up a floating existence in the way an electron leaves its atom if it acquires excess energy and starts a floating existence as a free electron. Consciousness can return to the brain if the property P is re-established.
This model explains all the observed properties of Consciousness including NDE , OBE and reincarnation. Since all information transfer in a non local quantum correlation is instantaneous, it explains the speed of human action. It can be extended to explain phenomena such as telepathy. It explains the individual identity or the " I " ness or self.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
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Contrary to the depictions of them from Hollywood, dinosaurs were herbivorous ("he eateth grass as an ox." [Job 40:15]) and lived concurrently and in peace with man.
They did not live 65 million years ago, as evolutionists claim, since nothing but God existed then.
They were created on the sixth day along with the other land animals (plesiosaurs, pterasaurs and others of their kinds are not strictly speaking dinosaurs, and they were created on the fifth day with the other animals of the water and sky.) Dinosaur bones are often found in sedimentary rocks formed during the Flood and are harder than the bones of other animals ("his bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron." [Job 40:18].)
Man and dinosaur lived together peacefully around 2000 BC. (Illustration by Peggy Miller)
Pre-Noachian man tried to tame the dinosaur, wishing to use its might for evilness and arrogantly thinking himself as mighty as the Lord. This grieved the Lord, and He brought the Flood upon the earth [Gen. 6]. Species of dinosaurs were among the animals taken aboard the ark by Noah ("And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee" [Gen. 6:19],) and thus dinosaurs survived the Flood. Scholars theorize that some of these descendents of Noah's ark were used to aid Noah's progeny in building the Tower of Babel. After that fiasco, the Lord felt that man was clearly not worthy of associating with His most powerful creation anymore, and ever since dinosaurs have been hidden from us.
Dinosaurs have been a favorite propaganda tool for evolutionists since the 19th century, and continue to be used to promote the pseudoscientific religion of Evolutionism in the Secular media. Movies such as Jurassic Park and Disney's Dinosaur are designed to indoctrinate the masses into the Evolutionistic world view. The appeal of dinosaurs to kids is of particular interest to Evolutionists since it allows them to gain easy and willing access the minds of our children ("for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" [Gen. 8:21].) And by recasting the Lord's gentle behemoths as blood-thirsty "terrible thunder lizards," they are able to make appeals to -- and further support -- the base desires of our culture for violence ("Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth." [Ps. 58:2]).
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://objectiveministries.org/creation/dinosaurman.jpg&imgrefurl=http://objectiveministries.org/creation/dinosaurs.html&usg=__VG6C4redsajBNXf9aASTPp7PsVo=&h=239&w=300&sz=19&hl=en&start=7&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=TRcGTBDusxvprM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhumans%2Band%2Bdinosaurs%2Bliving%2Btogether%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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Historical References in the Bible
In the Book of Job, the Lord clearly describes dinosaurs (called "behemoths" by Adam, in the original Hebrew, and in the 1611 King James translation of the Bible; the term "dinosaur" having only been coined in the 1800's) by saying that [the behemoth] "moveth his tail like a cedar" [Job 40:17]. The Lord also states in no uncertain terms that the behemoths and man lived concurrently when He says to Job "Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee;" [Job 40:15]. This also indicates that Job was able to view dinosaurs for himself.
Fossil Evidence
Many instances of overlapping human/dinosaur fossil tracks (footprints in mud that have become hardened into stone) have been found world wide. Some of the more famous are the Paluxy "Man Tracks" of Glen Rose, Texas and the "Tango Lagarto" of Patagonia. Also, evidence of human artifacts found with dinosaur bone fossils are surprisingly common -- surprising mainly since you never hear about them in Evolutionist literature. One typical case was the discovery of copper jewelry in the fossilized remains of the gizzard of a protoceratops found in the Gobi desert.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
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Dinosaurs and the Ark
Dinosaurs were on the Ark. Although this is not stated directly in the Bible (as the Bible also doesn't state directly that aardvarks or zebras were on the Ark,) it is an inescapable conclusion based on both physical evidence and, more importantly, what the Bible does state. In Genesis 6:19, God commanded Noah thusly:
"And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female."
We know that dinosaurs were alive at the time since they were fossilized during the Flood, many in active poses suggesting fear of their impending doom and horrific realization, however faint and dinosaurish, of their God-displeasing wickedness. So necessarily, Noah had to have brought representatives of the dinosaur kinds into the Ark in order to properly follow God's command (and since Noah was a righteous man, this he would have done.)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
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And finally, positive proof that humans and dinosaurs DID frolic together!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
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dfrost7
climber
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Jul 17, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Don't assume everyone who is a believer is a right-winger. I have a problem, in recent years, with the GOP assumed the official Christian party. Jesus NEVER fell for this political crap when he was addressed with it. Same exact mentality, the government was going to save the people. It didn't then, it won't now. The use of hot issues that arise every election to sway votes to the right are many of the same tactics used by the Pharisees, and religious leaders of the day. It's a trap. And,
His kingdom is not of this world. Democracy was not His plan for redemption.
I Read this guys book, I recommend it to others who strongly align to any wing, as a believer in God (he is a former atheist):
On The Myth of a Christian Nation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIWs_G4oJaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLTsefTbL1I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBQPN0rVs1I&feature=related
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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And I highly recommend some thoughts from an adult:
Albert Einstein
2. "The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action."
3. "I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls."
4. "The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge."
5. "I came-- though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents -- to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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Joseph Heller, Catch22
12. "'And don't tell me God works in mysterious ways,' Yossarian continued. 'There's nothing mysterious about it, He's not working at all. He's playing. Or else He's forgotten all about us. That's the kind of God you people talk about, a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of Creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatalogical mind of His when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?'"
Mark Twain
13. "Satan hasn't a single salaried helper; the Opposition employ a million."
14. "A man is accepted into church for what he believes--and turned out for what he knows."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 17, 2010 - 06:12pm PT
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And how did the "father" of our Constitution feel about religion, you ask?
Thomas Jefferson
31. "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."
32. "The clergy believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyrrany known to the mind of man."
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 17, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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"...nor tied to any authority ..."
So now YOU have taken the voice of authority .....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 17, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
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The Universe is old. 14 + Billions years. Our Solar System is about 4.5 - 5 Billion years old. GOD doesn't mess with his Laws of Nature he has set in order. He has power over them and can manipulate them for his purposes, but he doesn't play "fake you out games." He makes it so we can read the Heavens and the Earth and know the truth. It all points to his Creative Power and Being. Proves HE IS who HE says HE IS.
The Creation Story is a allegory. You have to study to be approved, rightly dividing the word of truth to know it.
There are now 170+ impact craters identified on Earth. If all 170+ impacts had to occur within a young Earth (4000 - 6000 years according to some young Earth believers), then we wouldn't be here. Many of these impacts were global extinction events. Therefore, the Earth and our Solar system can not be young. Did you know that the Bible talks about impacts in detail? Wow, modern science has just come to this truth within the last 40 years. The Bible has been talking about it for over 2000 - 3500 years!
Theistic Evolution. You can beleive in GOD and do Science too.
Here is another whopper . . .
The Facade, Prologue:
http://www.facadethebook.com/
A fictional book based on real events and resources. The Prologue to this fictional book is accurate.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 17, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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For those who love spouting off Bible verses- (evil bible.com) might be a REVELATION.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jul 17, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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Thoughts on this and that while watching History channel.....
You all know about the story of Adam and Eve....
They got married in the garden of Eden.
Did you know that Adam had a previous wife?
Named Lilith.
Now the rest of the story...
It is said that Adam and Lilith were created out of the ground, together, each an equal to the other.
So Adam and Lilith were in the garden, and Adam told Lil to "lye beneath me" (having dominion over her).. and Lilith would not.
So she was cast out and labeled demonic, a women who would have 100 of her offspring a day die for her sins (not sure what that means as..... no woman has had 100 children yet, have they? Not only that, I hear that infant mortality BITD was pretty high anyway... Oh, yeah, wait.. that's right..... the whole thing is completely fabricated, got it).
They had to come up with another way to have women subordinate to men...
ah, ha!!!!
Let's tell them that Eve was created from Adam's rib... then she would have to bow down before him, thus making all women bow down before man. (Adam could say "hey, you wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for me, baby.. get down there and do me some good".
Problem solved,
You see.. this makes perfect sense from my perspective.. this story shows me that the whole thing is made up..
further proof, for me at least, that there is no god.
remember.. not asking questions leads to stagnation, in doing the same things, over and over again... throughout time
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pa
climber
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Jul 17, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
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John,
thank you for the excellent article...it will take some time to digest.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 17, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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that was fun, gobee. nice mixed-race crowd of cave folk too--pleistocene PC.
c'mon, let's cut the dinosaur lovers a little slack. i want a pet dino too. i want trilobites for our fish tank. trilobites are so cool. and can i have a wiwaxiid? please?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 18, 2010 - 01:36am PT
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No matter who believes what on this thread, nobody is going to swallow this spam!
Too funny, order a T shirt from China for $25 and they want to charge you $20 extra for insurance? If anybody orders even one shirt, come back and report the miracle on this thread.
Die peacefully
Karl
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Jul 18, 2010 - 02:40am PT
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Hey Ed --
I don't think that science and scientists have any more or less claim for the horrendous behavior humans seem to be capable of visiting on their fellow humans.
Quite agreed. I was talking about the science end of this phenomenon and the other end was so fully assumed I did not mention it.
As far as "deadwood" well, it is dead, meaning unproductive... the tree of science knowledge grows on... who has time to trim what time will do itself.
If I had used the term "irresponsibility" instead of amusing myself with the cowboy cliche of "Deadwood", would you say "who has time to take responsibility for it, somebody else will"?
I don't have a problem with people doing well to other people for what ever reason. But I don't have to believe in their reason, and if you ask me what my thoughts are on the topic, I'll tell you.
Of course you don't have to believe their reason. Do you have a problem with people doing . . . ahh, "unwell" to other people? Do you choose the word "well" rather than "good" for a reason?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:49am PT
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karl, be nice to our chinese visitor. you're spoiled by buying chinese at walmart, where they insure whole boatloads. i'll bet these shirts are better quality.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 18, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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Thanks to Largo for the article , A Quantum Mechanical Model of the Brain and Consciousness. This, along with the discovery of information carried on gamma waves in the brain (Thanks Wanda!) makes me think that finally we are getting somewhere with understanding how the brain works and how there might be an overlap between the physical and what has traditionally been called spiritual.
If gamma waves carry information inside the brain, why not information carried from brain to brain by a wave-like action so subtle it hasn’t been discovered yet?
As best I can tell, many mystical experiences, especially those involving what the yogis call the chakras, involve the serotonin system, and thus biochemistry of the brain. Others, like the spiral movement of the kundalini in the spine, are more electrical-like in nature.
The Chinese say that acupuncture works through the electrical-like energy envelope surrounding the human body which they refer to as chi, and which the yogis call the human aura or prana. Western medicine doesn’t know how to measure it and it’s certainly not covered by western medical theory, yet western doctors can’t explain acupuncture according to traditional western understanding either. The Chinese of course say they never will until they accept that there is an energy field around the body.
I am still trying to understand what is common to certain states of meditation, acupuncture needles placed along the spine on both sides, and the energy coming out of the open end of an MRI machine. What I can say is that all three feel the same to me, producing an effect very similar to a dose of Demerol and the appearance of being surrounded by white light. Is this effect provoked by electricity or magnetism, or both? Is the euphoric feeling the result of endorphins, dopamine or something else being released as a result of the energetic stimulation?
Why did I feel this sitting next to a friend undergoing an MRI, and he didn’t feel anything? Are some people born physiologically different so they are sensitive, or did I acquire this from so many years of meditation? Interesting also, given both the Quantum and Gamma wave theories, that the Indo- Tibetan tradition says meditation can be enhanced by the use of crystals and magnets.
We don’t have to talk about God or do meditation to realize how little we know and that something very interesting is going on.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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I read Largo's offering and can comment on it... however, I am not sure what the best way to do that is...
...I suspect that people who want to believe that it is a true will be just based on the apparent "authority" of the sources...
...and those not disposed to believing don't actually need any critique.
But just a question for Jan, if "chi" is associated with an "electric field" surrounding the body, how is it that that electric field escapes detection? and correlation with the health of that body? It would seem to be a simple hypothesis to check, and if it is not detected, wouldn't it call into question that particular model of "chi." If you are going to say, "chi is real and we don't need any physical evidence, unless it confirms our belief" then we're not talking science...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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In Western culture, Jehovah (aka Yahweh aka the God of Moses aka the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims) is the only "God" that counts.
This shouldn't be.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 18, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
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Deuteronomy 4:35, To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.
Deuteronomy 4:39, know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.
1 Kings 8:60, that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other.
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Isaiah 45:5, I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isaiah 45:18, For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am the Lord, and there is no other.
Isaiah 45:21, Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isaiah 45:22, “Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Isaiah 46:9, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 18, 2010 - 05:12pm PT
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Yup. A one of a kind tool he surely is.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
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Interesting that Gobee would pick Deuteronomy to quote from as the WORD OF GOD.
So, let's take a look at some some of Deuteronomy's "bible" quotes, shall we?
More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
Burn Nonbelievers
"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
So the next time some Christian tells you about the "love of God", show them this page and ask them "Why does God want me to burn animals and humans?"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
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God Commands Burning Humans
[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
Child Sacrifice
And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV)
The following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 18, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
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Norton!
Do you hate Jesus too?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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If you could ask "God" (Jehovah for the Christians and Muslims, Hypercrates for HFCS) anything you wanted, what would it be?
I'd ask "God" how does matter do it? how does the matter of the brain lead to perception? to sentience? to feelings?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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i still want a pet wiwaxia. those little buggers are so cute. hasn't been anything like 'em since the cambrian--what, 5,700 years ago? it's so confusing ...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 18, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
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Yeah, cute, but probably filled with primordial neurotoxins. I mean, just look at 'em.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
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Wiwaxia? You mean the Wiwaxia corrugata or Wiwaxia telly savalas?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
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the electrical envelope--
people from the central clearinghouse of scientific knowledge keep telling us that kirlian photography has been debunked. anyone care to reiterate that for those who didn't follow it closely?
please, no links or pastes. i'm learning that those who rely on such haven't really digested the material themselves. besides, i've just pasted largo's monster article into a word file because it screwed the whole ST display into something too wide to read. it better be good.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Of course Christians and Muslims don't believe my "God" counts. They believe he's just a "made-up" God.
-Which in a way would be incorrect, of course, because the underlying "god concept" is ages-old, only the name is recently "made up" so I could refer to it/him/her more quickly, coherently and clearly.
Question: If you could ask "God" anything you wanted, what would it be?
Another: I'd also ask "God" - Was there just no other way for nature to pull it off? that is, to create (a) the robust life of the Earth and (b) my wife's lovely mouth of beautiful teeth- other than by way of predation (phagocytosis to nature red in tooth and claw)? Would it otherwise had been just a (boring) planet of photosynthesis without predation?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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i've just pasted largo's monster article into a word file because it screwed the whole ST display into something too wide to read. it better be good.
It's full of psudo-science and quackery but it poses some interesting questions. I think the most interesting part of all of this is the issue of causation. That's what it boils down to, in the end. I need to bone up on it some more, and that means getting my Hume and Kant and Leibnitz on.
I find the following quote someone in the direction I think this will end up (and I find it hard to believe that many scientists would ever agree with it):
"In modern science, quantum physics in particular, the rigid framework of cause and effect was dropped for the inherent indeterminism of quantum mechanical processes. Natural laws are regarded more like an ordering principle of the human mind which suggests a tendency to an idealist, Kantian view of reality.
Physicists have come to see that all their theories of natural phenomena, including the 'laws' they describe, are creations of the human mind; properties of our conceptual map of reality, rather than reality itself."
In other words, http://www.hyponoesis.org/Book/Chapter/5.1.3.3.5.2 is saying here that the map in NOT the territory.
We'll see . . .
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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re: causality
"I think the most interesting part of all of this is the issue of causation. That's what it boils down to, in the end. I need to bone up on it some more, and that means getting my Hume and Kant and Leibnitz on."
Auggh, not even, man. More like physics and chemistry as hor d' ourves. With a main entree of several engineering courses: statics, dynamics, control systems, electrical and electronics control, information systems. Top off with molecular biology, biochem and biophysics, neuroscience, endocrine systems, all from the perspective of "control theory." Do all that and then that is a modern study of causality- i.e., causal dynamics- in the 21st century. -If a "modern study" of causal dynamics is indeed your goal.
re: Hume and Kant and Leibnitz... Boy, have times changed. Sorry if the truth hurts.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
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well that's Capra's view of it... having taken a course from him in 1976 based on his book, I find it rather odd that it hasn't really changed all that much, were as physics has changed greatly since then...
... a map gets you around, it describes the limits of what you know, and the outlines and boundaries of things "nearly known." Occasionally something happens which changes the map in a large way, yet the things that were previously on the map generally get "remapped" and there is an understanding of how it fits into the new picture...
maps are a great analogy of thinking about a lot of this stuff since mapping is something the brain does very well... likely a hardwired ability which is ancient, meaning inherited from previous species in the line of human descent.
And maps are remade, frequently, with additions as they are discovered... expanding.
But we still haven't really said what it is we are concerned about here... if it is consciousness, we haven't really framed it... and without that framing, we'll just go in circles.
Certainly it is a tautology to create a mysterious thing then call it mysterious... so it is with consciousness in this discussion.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Are you conscious of your own self?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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by my definition "consciousness" and "self" constitute an isomorphism
Edit "they" = "consciousness" and "self"
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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"they?" who's "they" ?
Who are you?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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Trip7!
No, I do not "hate Jesus too"
But I do "hate" literal bible Christian fundamentalists, among other dumbshits.
AND SO SHOULD EVERYONE.
Because they spread pain, death, and torture throughout human history, from
the Crusades right up to now, with their childish IGNORANCE and EGO.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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OT,
Back when the tree was still solid I soloed the Royal Arches! I also free climbed it rather than doing the pengy, using the rope!
I trim trees and used the tree climbing set up. I climbed up to the pengy bolt and fed the rope (leave a bail biner) through like a rap, with both ends down.
I Down climbing to the stance before the 5.9 face climbing. With one end of the rope (left side no twists) tie a bowline into your harness with a three foot tail hanging down past the knot.
Now tie a Blake's hitch or other friction hitch, with the three foot tail, to the other side of the rope (right), coming down through the bolt with the bail biner.
Always tie, dress, and set your knots! You can pull slack out of the system by pulling down on the tail of the rope with one hand (right) and sliding the Blake's hitch up with your other hand (left), or add slack by sliding down the Blake with your left hand grabbing around the knot and pulling down on the knot even with full body weight on the rope, and just let go to stop! Always trail the end of the rope with your right hand loose around the rope below the Blake's hitch incase the Blake's slides too easy, you can grab it tight to stop yourself! (note tree ropes don't stretch like climbing ropes)
Ok, with most the slack out, I just free climbed across with both hands free. When I got past the crux, I untied the Blake and bowline and pulled the rope through like a rap, coiled the rope and finished the route! Cool!
Edit; Tie a figure-eight-knot, on the tail coming out of the Blake's hitch as a keeper, incase it roles out twards the end!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 18, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 18, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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re: Hume and Kant and Leibnitz... Boy, have times changed. Sorry if the truth hurts.
I think it's pretty clear by your many post the nature of how you think - that if you study enough hard science, you will have the answers about "everything." You're mistaking the science that was happening during Hume, Kant and Leibenitz's time the issues they were dealing with, believing that modern science, being infinitely more refined, has infinitely better insight into those issues. This is incorrect, of course, but you are not the first kid to think everyone before had it all wrong.
Understand that the moral direction of human beings is not derived from religious texts nor yet from science, nor yet from mental constructs that have a totally updated "map" of reality. We now live in the most technologically advanced era in history by a huge factor, and knowledge multiplies faster than ever. Yet we are still in wars and bickering over health care and racism and so forth.
Basically, morality is the outcome of our basic psychology, or really, brain stem stuff concerning aggression, sexuality, security, and so forth. What's more, "knowledge will avail us nothing" in the hopes of changing that programing. It can be changed, but not through the application of new science and "reality." Christianity did not "cause" the crusades. Aggression did. Your up in the area of meta reasons (beliefs and so forth) when the driving forces are, as usual, MUCH more basic and primitive.
Now Ed came back with a notion that the farther along we go, the better the maps will be until, just maybe, the day will come when the map is so accurate it will damn near BE the territory. Interestingly, this implies that an abstraction (science) IS reality (matter, according to materialists). And where does that leave us?
The issued of casality cannot be understood at the level of emergence, and reverse engineered down to "first causes. And while Ed disses Capra, just eight years ago a much more substantial bopper (Sowa) said:
"Up until the twentieth century, three assumptions described by Max Born in 1949 were dominant in the definition of causality: there are laws by which the occurrence of an entity B of a certain class depends on the occurrence of an entity A of another class, where the word entity means any physical object, phenomenon, situation, or event. A is called the cause, B the effect.
"Antecedence postulates that the cause must be prior to, or at least simultaneous with, the effect.
"Contiguity postulates that cause and effect must be in spatial contact or connected by a chain of intermediate things in contact.
"However, relativity and quantum mechanics have forced physicists to abandon these assumptions as exact statements of what happens at the most fundamental levels, but they remain valid at the level of human experience."
So while the map improves, it cannot be said to be more than a human mental construct commensurate to the level of human cogintion. The map in not a physical fact, nor yet a living embodiment of qualia. It is merely - a map.
Causation is important if we are going ahead with an investigation of consciousness. First, people are supposedly not able to prove that one thing causes another. That leaves us with two camps. The fundamantal materialists insist that just because we can't yet prove in billiard ball causation doesn't mean it doesn't occur just as mechanically as that, in every emergent form in the material and non-material world.
Meanwhile a second perhaps more ambitious and fearless group wonder if we cannot prove one thing causes something else in a strict mechanical way, then our map of reality, so far as mechanical determinism goes, needs to be explored in other terms, rather than sticking to the ways we WANT things to add up (mechanical materialism ).
Unless I'm mistaken, I think Ed's position is summed by quite concisely right here: http://www.michaelshermer.com/2005/06/what-i-believe-but-cannot-prove/
Dr. F's is that a Militant Agnostic: I don’t know and you don’t either!
Fructose is a revisionist with dreams of moral actions - a good idea, but derived from mental antecedents and therefore impotent in terms of changing behavior.
Me - still don't know hat the hell is going on.
Time for the Sanga now . . .
JL
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jul 18, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
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That's an interesting point insofar as modern mechanistic science had its roots in the more diffuse field of natural philosophy. The divergence took place because the mechanistic approach created reproducible practical results, while the philosophical approach only produced a lot of verbiage. This trend continues, but no one can say that they might not come full circle eventually. At least that's what Chopra et al. are banking on.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 18, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
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Thesis + antithesis = ???
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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Jesus matters, that'll work!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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The Word of God, as handed down DIRECTLY in the words of the BIBLE.
Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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Here are my two personal favorites:
Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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Dr. F. I think John was talking about Norton?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Kiss my ass, Gobee and Trip7
Jesus advocates child abuse:
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7
Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29
Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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Jesus advocates murder and death:
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. Matthew 11:20
Jesus, whose clothes are dipped in blood, has a sharp sword sticking out of his mouth. Thus attired, he treads the winepress of the wrath of God. (The winepress is the actual press that humans shall be put into so that we may be ground up.) Revelations 19:13-15
The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest of us the unchosen will be killed with the sword of Jesus. “An all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” Revelations 19:20-21
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
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Gobee is fond of quoteing Deuteronomy:
A raped, unengaged virgin must marry her rapist and they can never divorce (Deuteronomy 22:28-29
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
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It's to bad that Deuteronomy, got it right that those without selfcontrol will rape!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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And this one's for YOU, Gobee and Trip7:
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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Hi Fructose: Explain your methodology per point "b," especially in terms of practical application.
I believe (and I might be totally wrong here) you are working on the old "superstition" model, believing that outdated and superstitions beliefs about the world/God/Reality/etc., propagated by slavish adherence to antique and superstitious religious texts, determined a whole flood of behavior that was "caused" by those superstitions. Now, if have the courage to update our map, swapping out silly superstitions and "wo wo" with scientific "truth," then our behaviors will reflect the enlightened POV wrought from said truth.
Then you can line up your behaviors, work out a protocol to what matters, and go to town, right?
We've just described what ethics calls "Rule Consequentialism," and much of the legal system is based on this line of reasoning.
JL
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:50am PT
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Romans 9:32, Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
"Woop woop woop!"
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 19, 2010 - 08:24am PT
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But just a question for Jan, if "chi" is associated with an "electric field" surrounding the body, how is it that that electric field escapes detection? and correlation with the health of that body? It would seem to be a simple hypothesis to check, and if it is not detected, wouldn't it call into question that particular model of "chi."
Here are a couple of articles indicating that chi is electrical which I found in about ten minutes of searching (sorry, no time for a peer reviewed search).
http://my-physics-teacher.blogspot.com/2008/08/acupuncture-and-electricity.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/263387.stm
In addition, I once bought an interesting gadget in Hong Kong designed to help train apprentice acupuncturists in how to locate acupuncture points. It had to two wires with metal points sticking out of a flat battery like the old Petzl headlamps used. You were supposed to touch the ends to test if the battery still functioned, and if so, it would let out a squawk.
The theory is that there are certain points on the body which have a stronger electrical charge than others. The gadget was for testing where they are by using one of the wires to establish a connection strong enough to make the box squawk. I did this on myself and others, and sure enough, you could run the point over an area of skin and get no sound while another location would cause the box to squawk. I put a dot on each place that squawked and then looked at an acupunture chart. Every one of my dots corresponded to a traditional acupuncture point.
Meanwhile please note that I did change my description of the kundalini from an electrical current moving up the spine to electric-like current since no research that I know of has been done on what exactly it is. The ancients described it as a serpent moving up the spine, but I don't like snakes much and they're too large to represent the subtlety of the sensation that I experienced.
Since I have felt the movement of chi from one acupuncture point to the other and the kundalini in the spine felt similar though much more powerful, I have just assumed both were electrical, but have no scientific data for the kundalini.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:31am PT
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I think I am just stating the obvious- the more one understands a system (ultimately this means in terms of cause n effect, aka causal dynamics), any system, the more equipped he is to relate to it, manage it, etc. There is no reason this should stop short of the world or universe at large; there is no reason this (idea, principal or approach) should be limited to motors or computer electronics or rockclimbing or medicine.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:35am PT
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As a causal dynamicist, I believe knowing better (again, in terms of cause n effect) translates to doing better. Again, for any system. This includes life at large and the challenge of getting on in the "practice" of living. -Which often means getting through, also coping with, life's problems or predicaments.
All of science and engineering teach causal dynamics (mechanisms of action, etc.) in addition to the oft-touted scientific method. Savvy in causal dynamics (the causal dynamics model) applied in conjunction with what is known as the Scientific Story (aka Epic of Evolution or the Universe Story) makes for the best foundation upon which to build a practice of living in my judgment.
Note here I said "foundation," not the whole shebang, not the entire practice. -Which naysayers or opponents love to extrapolate to.
My hope is one day whole societies and not just individuals will come to the same realization.
The opposite is also true- Knowing worse is doing worse. Supernaturalist belief is mistaken. Supernaturalist belief is superfluous. I don't take it with me climbing, I don't take it with me problem solving. I don't take it with me in my practice of living at large. So there is consistency there that I respect that supernaturalists don't have.
_
I will offer one "prescription" relating to this subject. Those who have picked up a causal dynamics education through years if not decades of science experience and general life experience... should make the effort to "live up to" that education and to play it forward- not only to benefit their own lives but to benefit the states of society and democracy and civilization.
That is a life practice prescription I value. It is a "what matters" value grounded firmly on a "what is" foundation.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
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Jan,
There are stories of people picking up impossible heavy objects, cars etc. to help loved ones!
When I took Kung Fu, from John Leoning back in high school, He did a demonstration of his control of Chi.
There were flags hanging flat on the wall , and using controlled breathing, standing next to the flag, John put his hand out towards the flag,
and it waved like a light wind blew on it! And no he didn't blow on it and the door was closed!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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go-B-
There are many things in this world that western science has not yet explained. If you want to watch an interesting account of chi, Bill Moyers has a four part series called Healing and the Mind, and the first hour is on Chinese medicine and the concept of chi.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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I think I am just stating the obvious- the more one understands a system (ultimately this means in terms of cause n effect, aka causal dynamics), any system, the more equipped he is to relate to it, manage it, etc. There is no reason this should stop short of the world or universe at large; there is no reason this (idea, principal or approach) should be limited to motors or computer electronics or rockclimbing or medicine.
--
Two thoughts. One, "Knowledge availed us nothing" is a proven motto in terms of self transcendence, which is why so-called "talk therapy" has often failed in terms of changing people's lives. Ten years later and you simply have a well analyzed problem and no transformation.
Second, while it DOES seem obvious that the more one understands a system, the better one can control it - and this is true in many cases - it is not always the case in terms of behavior. Why? Various reasons, but it is widely understood that "understanding" gleaned at the level of the problem is of little to no use in solving the problem. This is akin to expecting a cluttered and troubled mind to "fix" itself, when all one can honestly expect is a great confusion.
It is often from detaching from a problem altogether, rather than grocking onto it ruthlessly with our evaluating minds, that solutions present themselves. The "control model" Fructose advances, while handy if not essential with facile and straightforward problems, has no proven track record per changing behavior, which is the crux of the issue - now, and always.
More on causation later.
JL
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pa
climber
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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In the realm of biomedicine and acupuncture, East meets West:
The Chinese description of reality does not penetrate to a truth. The truth is immanent in everything and is the process itself.
Chinese medicine refuses to see a complaint or disease as separable from the rest of the person. It attempts to locate illness within the unbroken field of an individual's total physical and psychological being.
In contrast, the ideal of biomedicine is to probe with laserlike accuracy, penetrating to the microscopic agent of disease, the cell and, ultimately, the DNA molecule. It often leaves the "person" in the waiting room.
Biomedicine breaks the living continuity of experience, the actual texture of human reality, into measurable units. Reality becomes perceptible only in relationship to a projection of units of space, time, motion and matter.
Western thought, at its most noble and honest, is nourished by the constant tension between unknown and known, between imperfect and perfect.
Western humankind is enmeshed in creating and becoming; it labors in growth and development.
It is an idea altogether missing in China, an attitude that contrasts sharply with the Chinese view of truth as inherent in the harmonious
arrangement of the given.
The Western physician asks: What X is causing Y?
The Chinese physician asks: What is the relationship between X and Y?
The Western doctor searches for a precise cause for a specific disease. For the Chinese doctor the question of cause and effect is always secondary to the overall pattern of disharmony.
In the West, the final concern is always the creator, or the cause of phenomena, what is beyond, behind the phenomena. In the Chinese view, the concern is in the web of phenomena, not in the weaver.
Modern biomedicine and traditional Chinese medicine are two discrete systems of theory and practice that have complementary strengths and weaknesses. They seem to need each other very much.
There is a growing perception, in the East and the West, that for a richer paradigm of healing, medicine needs art, progress needs wisdom, and precision needs vision.
From "The Web that has no weaver" Ted J. Kaptchuck
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
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"Knowledge availed us nothing" is a proven motto in terms of self transcendence, which is why so-called "talk therapy" has often failed in terms of changing people's lives. Ten years later and you simply have a well analyzed problem and no transformation."
..............................................................
Millions of people would disagree, surely you know this.
Knowledge avails millions everyday. Cognitive therapy (aka talk therapy) works for millions, too.
"Ten years later and you simply have a well analyzed problem and no transformation." -Unfortunately true for some. But not for others.
I don't know, I guess it boils down to different takes on things.
I do "believe in" these things: Civilization. Knowledge is power. Knowing better is doing better. Then again, I believe this, too: Life is struggle. Life is managed, not cured. In the end, though, I am glad to be living in this century, not any earlier.
As I said above, (1) the "hard facts" of science gathered together, systemized, standardized, could conceivably serve as a kind of "foundation" structure for potential future developments in belief, in life guidance systems, in life strategy models; (2) the so-called hard facts do NOT describe the whole shebang to the practice of living, they're just the starting point; personally, I've never looked to the "hard facts" of science to explain everything, that would be somebody else; (3) "what matters" and "what works" - two other components in a "practice" of living model- would be up to the living thing (be it individual, community, nation or species) to figure out, to develop, to institute through narrative, contract, ritual, custom, tradition, etc.
And I do have faith (evidential faith) and hope that the next 1,000 years will see traction and progress in these areas.
Interesting discourse.
P.S. re: "always the case" I'm not necessarily looking for that. I don't have in mind "always the case." I don't think about designing, developing, building in these terms or with this in mind. Indeed, I try to be mindful, at least once in awhile, of another saying: Don't let the pursuit of the perfect get in the way of the good.
...................
"It is often from detaching from a problem altogether, rather than grocking onto it ruthlessly with our evaluating minds, that solutions present themselves."
Couldn't agree more. A fine problem solving strategy. So there's our common ground: We both believe it.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Here are a few things I've been able to throw together in answer to my own question.
Jan:
I am still trying to understand what is common to certain states of meditation, acupuncture needles placed along the spine on both sides, and the energy coming out of the open end of an MRI machine. What I can say is that all three feel the same to me, producing an effect very similar to a dose of Demerol and the appearance of being surrounded by white light. Is this effect provoked by electricity or magnetism, or both? Is the euphoric feeling the result of endorphins, dopamine or something else being released as a result of the energetic stimulation?
Wikipedia:
In an MRI machine a radio frequency transmitter is briefly turned on, producing an electromagnetic field. The photons of this field have just the right energy, known as the resonance frequency, to flip the spin of the aligned protons. As the intensity and duration of the field increases, more aligned spins are affected. After the field is turned off, the protons decay to the original spin-down state and the difference in energy between the two states is released as a photon.
Wikipedia:
Radio frequency (RF) is a rate of oscillation in the range of about 30 kHz to 300 GHz,
A gamma wave is a pattern of brain waves in humans with a frequency between 25 to 100 Hz, though 40 Hz is prototypical.
Science Daily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091120000140.htm
Information is carried on top of gamma waves, just like songs are carried by radio waves. These "carrier waves" transmit information from one brain region to another. "We found that there are slow gamma waves and fast gamma waves coming from different brain areas, just like radio stations transmit on different frequencies," she says.
Wikipedia:
Experiments on Tibetan Buddhist monks have shown a correlation between transcendental mental states and gamma waves
.....................
I am sure there is a scientific explanation for the physical phenomena involving mystical / spiritual / psychic experiences and their relationship to healing. We just haven't found them yet. Imagine if even a part of our defense budget was put to this use instead of more killing machines?
I'm also sure that 200 years from now when many of the physical manifestations of these phenomena are well understood, it will still be possible to have a thread like this as ultimate causation remains a belief system. I'm betting that the mystics will still be sure there is unseen and unmeasured intelligence and energy in this universe which some will call God, and the materialists will still be arguing that if we build yet more and better measuring devices, we will finally be able to measure and prove how the universe works without any purpose.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
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Yeah, and what's the score in the Materialists vs. Mystics game so far: Materialists: 1000, Mystics: 0. It's already game over. No need to wait 20 years, let alone 200.
No longer am I trying to figure out whether you respect the core sciences more or disrespect them more, I believe I know. Really, have you said anything good, laudatory, memorable about the core sciences (i.e., the physical sciences) since the start of these discussions. I can't remember.
The whole of a modern biology book or anatomy and physiology book or ecology book or modern psychology book (now based firmly in evolutionary psychology) points to material functionality as the building blocks to living things.
Links: Steven Pinker
Yeah, I think it is time to take a break from this thread, HFCS. Just too many supernaturalists, also paranormalists, who don't know they follow in the path of astrologers. So it is time, I think, for more satisfying, more stimulating pastures.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 20, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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Yeah, and what's the score in the Materialists vs. Mystics game so far: Materialists: 1000, Mystics: 0. It's already game over. No need to wait 20 years, let alone 200.
You don't say.
Kindly tell me who you are, then. What, after all, is your basic nature?
JL
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 20, 2010 - 01:05am PT
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Hosea 1:10, “Children of the living God.”
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 20, 2010 - 01:20am PT
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Fructose-
I haven't lauded the physical sciences because they are well enough represented on this thread by people who work in those fields every day and in any case, they're not my field of specialization. I do however, have knowledge about Asian cultures, meditation, and non ordinary states of mind which would seem to be appropriate.
Please keep in mind that I am an anthropologist and the assumptions that work in the hard sciences are useless when dealing with human beings from very different cultures. It's a standing joke in anthropology that whatever hypothesis one takes to a village will be blown out of the water by reality within the first two weeks. After that, one just observes and eventually if they're lucky will see patterns and be able to put together theories of causation.
I've approached spiritual studies with the same mind set I took to anthropology. First I did my field work and now I try to see patterns and seek causation. The people who first discovered the systems for having non ordinary states of mind, thought they came from a spiritual source because of their transformative power which seems beyond mere human understanding and will. Therefore I am inclined to believe that explanation until I see proof otherwise, which I doubt will come in my lifetime.
I am also aware that many modern people see the need for a new paradigm that is more wholistic than mechanistic materialism. And finally, I am aware that progress even in hard science is most often held back not by what we don't know, but by what we are sure that we already do know.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 20, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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Here are a few examples from my own fieldwork where my expectations based on western science did not meet village reality.
I was told that there was a small deer that lived in my Sherpa village which had canine teeth bigger than most dogs. Impossible I said, deer eat grass and the teeth of grazing animals is not the same as carnivores. When I saw my first musk deer however, I was forced to admit local knowledge was right and my western scientific assumptions were wrong. Google "musk deer pictures" and see for yourself.
Then there was the time I was told about a half animal, half plant creature - a worm that had grass growing out of its head. Impossible I said, my culture knows from science that animals and plants are separate beings. Then they brought me a dried up caterpillar with two strands of what looked like grass growing out of its head. Turns out that yer tsa gum bu is a caterpiller killed by a fungus during the monsoon. Google "cordyceps sinensis" which is now being sold to western athletes as a "mushroom" because no one would eat it if they knew it was 99% ground up caterpiller with a little fungus thrown in.
Then there is the yeti. I've spent years trying to sort out Tibetan folklore from physical reality. I'm pretty sure Messner got it right about most citings of it being a bear. I don't rule out the idea however, that the widespread central Asian tradition of an apelike yeti maybe came from the existence of Homo erectus descendants in Asia when modern Homo sapiens arrived, and the battles that took place between them.
Sorry Fructose, if I don't jump to western scientific conclusions as readily as you would like me too, but my experience in Asia has taught me to go slow. I'm not saying that western science may not be correct in the end, but if you automatically assume the nature of things based on what you learned in western textbooks and laboratories, you may miss out on something real that is infinitely more interesting than your own preconceptions.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 20, 2010 - 01:55am PT
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The older I get and the more I learn
The smaller is the proportion of what I think I know
To what I think I don't know
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JML
climber
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Jul 20, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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Largo, Check your email associated with supertopo. I need to get a hold of you as soon as possible.
Thanks.
P.S. I picked this thread because it is the most recent one you posted in.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 20, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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It should be, "Why do so few people believe in God!" (Serious Question)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 20, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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Recent polling shows some 86% of surveyed American adults said they DID
believe in "god".
Not surprising, Gobee should feel comforted that he has plenty of support.
As the level of academic education goes UP, the belief in god goes DOWN.
93% of the members of the American Academy of Scientists do NOT believe in god.
Why do you suppose that the more educated one is, the LESS they say they
believe in the Guy in the Sky story?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 20, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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"since they don't get duped by the ruler bent on Power and control of the masses"
God already has all the power, and gives freewill to everyone!
But He is God and it's His universe!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 20, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jul 20, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
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1 Corinthians 1:18, For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
If such a god existed, I would tell it to its face, "FVCK YOU GOD!"
I would never allow myself to be such an ignorant slave; I will never trade my discernment or search for knowledge for a blind worship and illusory "salvation."
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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Jul 20, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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Norton,
I saw your quoted stats above & have a question. Of all PHD's who's most likely to believe in God? Not trying to be a being a jerk, really do you know?
PS: I probably shouldn't ask, but how's your back doing man? I just got done w/ Lumbar procedure number 7 & spent the last week dc'ing MS ER 30 mg QID plus.. Life's not too friendly sometimes is it!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 20, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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God is holy, just, loving and a forgiving God!
How come you can't see that?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 20, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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go-b,
Thanks. Good stuff. I constantly need to be reminded. The pure word of GOD only.
1 Corinthians 1:18, For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”
Q: Now, ask yourself, why does GOD want to do it this way?
A: Because salvation is not by works, smarts, good-looks, money, power, cleverness, how strong you are, what kind of grade you can climb, etc. etc. He did it this way so that everyone has the opportunity to come to him for salvation through Jesus Christ. It is a gift. Not by works or smarts, but by the grace of GOD.
. . . so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
Brilliant really, when you think about it. No other way to do it. If there was, then you could boast about it. And GOD won't allow that.
All praise and honor to GOD.
You have to come humbly come before GOD and ask forgiveness with all your heart. And he will forgive you. It is by grace we are saved. You can't buy it. You can't earn it. It is a gift of GOD.
Amen and Amen.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 20, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Well said Klimmer!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:04am PT
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Word!^^^^^
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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I'm not grasping the idea behind all the endless bible quotes? What are we trying to say here?
Then again, maybe we are all Proselytizing here.
JL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Robb, sent you an email.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:35am PT
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After observing this thread from a distance and for a while, I had the thought, more of a mental speculation of course, that perhaps everybody’s right when it comes to God.
Perhaps, in a non-materialist/materialist way, God both is and isn’t.
Perhaps God is the dreamer of our being while at the same time we dream his being, a symbiosis of assurance to comfort the anxieties of deities as well as humans.
God seems to be all things to all people and there is no doubt great comfort in the certainty of that existence and his direct action in the lives of believers.
I wonder though, if God is whatever anybody believes he is, each individual experience of God subjective to the “experiencer”, then how can he be anything.
If God is all things/anything then isn’t he/she/it nothing?
God as a reality seems to succumb to its own infinite cultural varieties.
So many versions of deity to which the passionate believer can only reply: but I know, I’m right,
my belief is the correct one; I know through personal experience; this is right and you are wrong. It’s a passion that seems more a declaration of ego than an engagement to some real spiritual life.
If Tom is a Christian and his spiritual experience convinces him of the absolute correctness of his belief and Joe is a Muslim and his spiritual experience convinces him of the absolute correctness of his belief then what is to be said of the “spiritual experience? Wouldn’t this experience have to be in error for one of these two? And which of the two theological dogmas, both born out of significant religious experience, is the correct one?
One wonders how much we should we rely on our experience of the “spiritual” for our existential comfort? And to what degree we are correctly informed by such experience.
It seems strange to me to that Eastern notions of spirituality are so readily embraced by Westerners that have had, as all Westerners have, their egos so carefully cultivated since childhood. I say this since the primary requirement from the East is the abandonment of Ego for the sake of the real self, which is of course, no self at all. I am not my body; I am not my thoughts.
And certainly there doesn’t seem to be much of an interest in abandoning ego on this thread.
No doubt psychic and intuitive experiences are fascinating, real and often mysterious to the experiencer but both are unreliable in the extreme. They are unreliable because they are so exquisitely contradictory to one another.
Why is it that the Christian Catholic has such a problem tolerating the Christian Protestant who has such a problem tolerating the Jehovah’s Witness who has such a problem tolerating the Mormon who has such a problem tolerating the Southern Baptist who has such a problem tolerating the Jew who has such a problem tolerating the Muslim who has such a problem tolerating the Hindu… and so on? Who’s right? For at every religious door we find the dire consequences of choosing unwisely, of not finding the truth.
It’s all just too mysteriously confusing to be real!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:50am PT
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hat, after all, is your basic nature?
I think without discussing the interface and interaction between meat and universal stuff you're just running in circles. Again, with your rigid, b/w view of materialism it seems unlikely, if not irrational, that meat would be capable of any interaction with stuff.
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Robb
Social climber
The other "Magic City on the Plains"
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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Norton
Hurt'in tonite ,
talk to you soon
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:19am PT
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Paul-
As always a thought provoking contribution.
I think however, that you confuse religion and spirituality. No doubt the founders of the great religions had profound mystical / spiritual experiences. The problem is that most of their followers have not, and rest on dogma instead.
As an anthropologist I have of course had to ask if there is so much variety of belief, how can there be any reality behind any of it? So far the best explanation for me at least comes from Yogananda who gave this analogy. God is like the pure light that comes out of a movie projector. We are like the audience who watches what appears on the scene as filtered through the film strip of our culture. We get caught up in the drama; we laugh, we cry, our hearts pound and we experience adrenaline rushes. In the process we forget that the film and our life it is just light dancing on a wall and for sure, we forget the pure light source that began it all. A form of neoPlatinism I suppose.
I believe that experimenting with meditation is a way to get beyond the film strips of individual cultures to something more basic. I can see much more clearly as a result of the skeptics on this thread that it's not certain what that next layer really is - an experience of the divine or merely a human physiological reaction to certain ways of breathing and focussing the mind. I have also come to doubt that we will ever agree on causation.
It does seem to me however, worth exploring these experiences just as cultures different from us are worth exploring, for the expanded view they give us of human potential.
One thing I am sure of, is that once having had the experiences, one can then go back and read the world's mystical literature and find commonalities of experience beneath the dogmas and cultural accretions. I also have the hope that being able to show these commonalities might make some small contribution to intra religious understanding.
I also have the dream that someday physiologists will be able to read about these experiences and corelate them to the physical workings of the human body which will be another advance along the way and that my notes on my experiences might help that process. Currently I am exploring willing my brain to science for that purpose.
Of course, materialism holding sway in our culture, I am waiting until I have published all of my standard anthropological research before I publish anything on mysticism, as academics are not all that much more open to new ideas that clash with their old paradigms than are religious people when you disagree with their dogmas.
So yes, we are all proselytizing on this thread and displaying our egos. Tibetan teacher Chogyam Trungpa even had a label for it - spiritual materialism.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:01am PT
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A question I've been wanting to post for quite a while here; that I think Jan just started answering.
I think it is pretty interesting that there doesn't seem to be discussion about what is the definition of this 'God' that is being discussed here. Are people even discussing the same topic? Or is that something already agreed upon by implication?
So what is the definition of this 'God' that is at the heart of this discussion??
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:03am PT
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Ba da bing! #3,000.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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Healyje: "Again, with your rigid, b/w view of materialism it seems unlikely, if not irrational, that meat would be capable of any interaction with stuff."
Either your language is so loose to be incomprehensible - and no offence intended - or I'm simply not following here, but I think we've all agreed that "meat," or the discursive/evaluating/evolved brain, is quite good at interfacing with "stuff," so long as said stuff is quantifiable, measuirable, "provable," et al. That's what the meat brain is: evaluation in process.
At many times in this discussion I have stated the normal or common usage definition of materialism - bottom-up, linked/linear casuality (in philosophical argot, counterfactual dependence), etc. - and I've repeatedly asked for those with a different take on materialism to define it in your own terms. So I'll put the question to you once again, Healje:
What does a less black and white view of materialism look like in terms of the issues we have raised and which are generally associated with mechanical materialism? Where does your definition differ from the standard bottom-up, linked/linear casuality, matter (meat) "produces" all higher functions etc. What's more, according to materialism, consciousness is an "emergent" phenomenon of the meat brain, i.e., the meat brain "produces" consciousness, like a tuning fork produces a given tone. Is your understanding different than this? If so, specifically how?
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2010 - 03:18am PT
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Either your language is so loose to be incomprehensible...
'Meat' is your word, and "universal stuff" means whatever you are referring to that you feel you are 'connecting to' that is not 'of meat'.
With your rigid view of materialism, how is it that the meat Largo can interact or connect with anything that is not of that meat? For instance, how is it that meat can 'think' at all? And if the meat isn't doing the thinking, then what is? And what is the interface between it and the meat?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 21, 2010 - 05:07am PT
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t*r- "humans have this universal need...to believe in something."
First of all, as King Solomon stated "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men;" Ecclesiastes 3:11
This means that we can never be completely satisfied with earthly(temporal)pleasures and pursuits. Because we were/are created in Gods image, that is we are spiritual beings, and have a spirit that yearns to know God.
We have a deep seated, compulsive drive to transcend our mortality by knowing the meaning and destiny of the world. Because we are made in the image of God, we have an inborn inquisitiveness about eternal realities. We can find peace only when we come to know our eternal Creator.
1) We have a spiritual thirst, 2)we have eternal value, and 3)nothing but the eternal God can satisfy us. He has built in us a restless yearning for the perfect world that can only be found in His perfect rule.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 21, 2010 - 09:02am PT
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re: dharmawardena
i wouldn't call it pseudo science, john, just science lightly grasped.
dharmawardena represents a large group of amateurs who dive right into deep water armed with popularized knowledge about science. he speculates. we all have the right to that, but speculation itself indicates that you probably spend all your time hang gliding without ever walking the landscape. you begin to think you know all you need to know, but you never see the insects, the insides of the flowers, the crystals in the dikes of the rock.
i think the best philosophers of science are scientists themselves who feel inclined to philosophize a bit about the implications of their work. there aren't many of them, but for some reason they don't have to read plato, spinoza and the like.
i have a hunch that if people like dharmawardena get into the science a lot deeper, they might be surprised to find themselves cooking up a whole different set of ideas.
---
hoo-ah--went hiking yesterday and we capped 3,000 on this thread.
"oh damned whale! die, i say!" -- cap'n ahab
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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Healyj wrote: "Meat' is your word, and "universal stuff" means whatever you are referring to that you feel you are 'connecting to' that is not 'of meat'."
Let's back up a bit. I asked you those questions about your take on materialism for a reason. Namely, it's a valid question - when you insist that my interpretation of materialism is "black and white," I assume you have another definition that is not so black and white. I'm simply asking you what that description is before I forge on. And I will forge on - of that you may be sure.
As mentioned, my sense of this is that you, along with most all materialists, believe the evolved meat brain "produces," via forward, linear and linked causal events ("counterfactual dependence"), consciousness - or at any rate, consciousness is an "emergent phenomenon" of the atomic activity in said meat brain. I agree that this is black and white. Where then is the gray in any mechanistic materialist model?
JL
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Clarke Brogger
Mountain climber
Laguna Beach, Ca
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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careful folks., careful.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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Largo, maybe it's the philosopher or logician in you that's so hung up on definitions, but it really isn't the issue. It's a pretty simple question:
if you agree there is meat, and that there is also consciousness, how is it that meat is capable of interacting with consciousness if meat is as incapable you claim?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 21, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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Meat is the (Amazing, Beautiful, Wondrous) tool of the spirit!
Hebrews 4:12, For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 21, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 21, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 21, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
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Actually, I haven't claimed that meat is incapable, and it is patently absurd to believe that the brain does not interface with consciousness. My only contention here is the belief that consciousness is entirely an emergent epiphenomenon of the evolved brain, which materialists claim is mechanically produced by said meat brain.
Now the ironic thing to me here is that I consider Ed, for instance, to be a viable scientist, and perhaps even a great one - I lack the qualifications to really know. But notice how Ed is always pushing for more refined definitions so we know what we are talking about.
This is the core quality and criteria of all scientific method: strive after an ever refined numerical evaluation or "definition" of whatever form, stuff, atomic activity, agency, or phenomenon we are talking about.
In what viable scientific discussion will someone be told not to be so "hung up on definitions, [that this] (measurement) isn't really the issue?
And yet when I put the simple query out there for ANYONE to supply a definition that differs from the standard causal model of materialism (materialism is basically a rigid model of linear causation), not one person has ever stepped forward, and in fact I am said to be hazy and incomprehensible in my requests.
Basically, the whole thing boils down to what they call counterfactual dependence (CD). Materialism, to be real at all, has to be 100% and at all times an example of CD. If it was not, then you would be left with something that was "caused" by something other than material. So materialism is a little like pregnancy. You either are pregnant, or you are not pregnant. There is no "gray area," and suggestions that a person had too black and white an understanding of pregnancy are of course preposterous, since materialism and pregnancy are themselves black and white. Materialists don't say matter determines all things and functions and phenomenon - most of the time. They say this happens ALL of the time.
More later.
It's my birthday today and I have to screw around with friends. But clearly, I love these discussions, and everyone involved.
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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Actually, I haven't claimed that meat is incapable, and it is patently absurd to believe that the brain does not interface with consciousness. My only contention here is the belief that consciousness is entirely an emergent epiphenomenon of the evolved brain, which materialists claim is mechanically produced by said meat brain.
So I guess that I'm left wondering: how is possible that simple meat is capable of interfacing with a consciousness-that-is-not-meat? Wouldn't that interfacing capability have to have organic, mechanistic / material roots? And how is the meat bootstrapped with this consciousness?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 21, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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" how is possible that simple meat is capable of interfacing with a consciousness-that-is-not-meat?"
Luke 18:27, But he said, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 21, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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Psalm 19:1, The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
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Hahaha LOL
The "meat" thing is killing me.
Too funny .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 21, 2010 - 10:49pm PT
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Dr. F. said:
But finally, we can always say "Given enough time, it will be reduced and explained" but it won't be what your looking for
The spiritualist says:
"Given enough time, human consciousness will be expanded and explained, and it won't be what the reductionists are looking for."
It all depends which direction you're looking.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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Everyone knows consciousness exists, unless of course if you're unconscious.
Even in a comma you'll still be ......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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Or a multi-host parasite like pentastomids. Just a few threads of nerves, but they seem to be able to navigate across several host species over its reproductive cycle.
Or a parasitic roundworm which is one a number of parasites which alter the behavior of their host.
Amazing what you can do with just a few nerve cells. I personally wouldn't sell them short...
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 21, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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Proverbs 30:24, Four things on earth are small,
but they are exceedingly wise:
25 the ants are a people not strong,
yet they provide their food in the summer;
26 the rock badgers are a people not mighty,
yet they make their homes in the cliffs;
27 the locusts have no king,
yet all of them march in rank;
28 the lizard you can take in your hands,
yet it is in kings' palaces.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 21, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
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More then the sum of the parts, transcendence, human and alive!
Genesis 9:6, for God made man in his own image.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 21, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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The good Doctor says:
"Since its just a bunch of words from the past, and has no bearing on anything going on TODAY."
Then why are you irritated TODAY if it has no bearing on anything going on TODAY.
Yuck yuk yuk ..... :-)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Found on another thread.
Pate
Trad climber
Jul 10, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
On the Grand Scale Of Assholes though, Mel is nothing. Slobidan Milosovich, Pol Pot, Hitler, Jim Jones, George Bush, Go-b, Illusiondweller, RokJox......... now there's a list of some real as#@&%es.
And this person claims on this thread to represent rationalism???
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pa
climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Healyje,
you might be interested in:
"Science and the Akashic Field", by Ervin Laszlo.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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How did I miss that one? Pady...LOL
Don't lump me in with Rox's...HE HE HE!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:08am PT
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Dr F wrote: you can just keep going, reducing and reducing forever, and never will you be able to account for all the action that you are investigating
Borrowing from various sources here . . .
I find it especially interesting to look at causation in the other direction. For instance, the Fountain Theory of “Realms of Science” states that the laws of physics describe cause and effect within physics, and are believed to be the underlying causes of biological events. In other words, atomic antecedents cause or "produce" bugs and snakes and elephants. In this sense, there must be, in theory at least, an unbroken chain of causal events, starting with atomic activity, that follow a connected, linear sequence forward through time ever producing increasingly complex systems and entities and functions. This is a one-way causal chain: the atoms are said to "produce" consciousness and the tiger shark, for example. The tiger shark and consciousness are not said to "produce" the atoms - according to the materialists.
The problem is the causal connections between the realms of physics and biology are rarely observed directly, and as such, this connection, though materialism depends on it entirely, is rarely studied in either science.
A scientist needs to chime in make this all clear, but for the moment, it is my understanding that at some point in the causal chain - according to materialism - a system reaches a degree of complexity in which the quantum model is no longer viable for investigating or vetting said system.
But going back a step, gravity and molecular forces, say, are believed to be the causes of a dog walking down the street. But studies of dog behavior such as hunting and sleeping rarely get down to series of fundamental events caused by individual molecular forces.
The result is that biology mostly references cause and effect relationships within biology, at a level of complexity far more involved than the atomic stirrings that "cause" them. Hence, biology stays focused on such things as
population, competition, and reproduction.
Consequently, physics and biology generally exist in their own realms, and laws of cause and effect within each tend towards internal consistency, and towards whatever consistency is possible given the smaller connections the other realm of science (for example, animals are effected by the force of gravity). Contemporary knowledge in biology is thus expressed in a self-referential way, with limited causal connections from physics to the current state of scientific knowledge.
A similarly limited causal connection is shown between other scientific realms in succeeding levels, such as physics, chemistry, biology, psychology, and sociology.
What is of particular interest to me are those moments in the causal chain in which different levels of complexities are bridged, where a thing exits one real and is directly "caused" to become something else in another realm.
JL
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jstan
climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 04:19am PT
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A revelation.
People post scripture
Because it makes them feel good.
OK. Two can play that game.
For a hundred years we have argued as to whether dinosaurs were warm or cold blooded.
It feels really good to know this argument is about to end.
A thermometer for modern and extinct vertebrates
By Physics Today on May 27, 2010 10:10 AM
Robert Eagle of Caltech and his collaborators have shown that they can determine the body temperature of living and long-dead vertebrates by measuring the abundance of a molecule made of isotopes—an isotopologue—in bones, scales, and teeth.
The isotopologue is a heavy version of the carbonate ion CO32?. In a typical piece of bone or other biomineral, all but 1.8% of the CO32? ions are made of the lightest carbon and oxygen isotopes, 12C and 16O. At around 45 ppm, 13C18O16O22? is barely present, but its scarcity is made up for by a useful property: the isotopologue’s precise abundance depends on the ambient temperature when the biomineral first crystallized.
The temperature dependence arises because lower temperatures boost the propensity of a heavy isotope to form a bond with another heavy isotope rather than with a light isotope. Five years ago, Prosenjit Ghosh, who is now at the Indian Institute of Science, and his colleagues extracted CO2 gas from carbonate crystals they’d made in the lab. From their measurements they derived a robust formula relating the abundance of 13C18O carbonate to its formation temperature.
By applying the formula to tooth samples, Eagle could accurately predict the body temperature of five vertebrates, including the white rhino (37 °C) and the sand tiger shark (23 °C). From fossilized samples he could also predict the body temperature of the woolly mammoth (38 °C).
Applying the paleothermometer to samples of other extinct vertebrates could reveal when vertebrates first became warmblooded.
(R. A. Eagle et al., Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, in press, doi:10.1073/pnas.0911115107.)—Charles Day
http://blogs.physicstoday.org/update/2010/05/
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 22, 2010 - 05:16am PT
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jstan-
Welcome back! Three thousand posts and still going strong.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2010 - 06:03am PT
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Largo, I don't need to study the atomic behavior of my chair in order to determine whether or not I can sit in it. I similarly don't need to check in with the atoms of my fingers to be sure they are in fact typing these characters. And they don't call it a 'reflex' test for nothing when they whack your knee with the little rubber hammer. By and large no one involved cares about the atomic level of interaction that gave rise to the reflex, and they are pretty sure it an 'organic' and 'material' response - it's just what nerves and muscles do and most folks would posit they don't need any 'outside' assistance to get the job done. It would seem to me to be a context / domain issue where observations in higher, lower, or allied domains are sometimes irrelevant to the task or research at hand.
Consequently, physics and biology generally exist in their own realms
I'd say quite the contrary, multi-discipline research teams are an increasingly common requirement in modern biological research. I know of many teams which include biologists, bioinformatics, computational and biochemists, biophysicists, and bioengineers. I suspect Jan could reel off a few as well. Here's a list from wiki that doesn't include bioengineering disciplines such as mechanobiology and the always interesting neural prosthetic systems:
Biology and molecular biology - Almost all forms of biophysics efforts are included in some biology department somewhere. To include some: gene regulation, single protein dynamics, bioenergetics, patch clamping, biomechanics.javascript:doSave();
Structural biology - Ångstrom-resolution structures of proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, carbohydrates, and complexes thereof.
Biochemistry and chemistry - biomolecular structure, siRNA, nucleic acid structure, structure-activity relationships.
Computer science - Neural networks, biomolecular and drug databases.
Computational chemistry - molecular dynamics simulation, molecular docking, quantum chemistry
Bioinformatics - sequence alignment, structural alignment, protein structure prediction
Mathematics - graph/network theory, population modeling, dynamical systems, phylogenetics.
Medicine and neuroscience - tackling neural networks experimentally (brain slicing) as well as theoretically (computer models), membrane permitivity, gene therapy, understanding tumors.
Pharmacology and physiology - channel biology, biomolecular interactions, cellular membranes, polyketides.
Physics - biomolecular free energy, stochastic processes, covering dynamics.
Quantum biophysics involves quantum information processing of coherent states, entanglement between coherent protons and transcriptase components, and replication of decohered isomers to yield time-dependent
It's actually an exciting time to be a new biologist exactly because of all the cross-fertilization and biomimetics that's happening right now - wish I was 20 again to get in on the fun.
Also, if you follow the line up from virii to primates watching as nervous systems start appearing you can directly observe increasingly complex behaviors and 'capabilities' as you move up that line and nervous systems evolve. At what point along that line is an organism able to interface or become a suitable vessel for all this external non-stuff and by what means?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2010 - 06:08am PT
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pa - I've excerpts of his work in passing, but haven't read it. It would certainly seem to be be as valid a variant within the 'collective consciousness' family as any.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 22, 2010 - 07:50am PT
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Also, if you follow the line up from virii to primates watching as nervous systems start appearing you can directly observe increasingly complex behaviors and 'capabilities' as you move up that line and nervous systems evolve. At what point along that line is an organism able to interface or become a suitable vessel for all this external non-stuff and by what means?
----
I had to read between the lines of your posts to understand what you are saying because frankly, yo always come in sideways to the questions I ask you, and reposit them in your own terms or according to your own understanding. Funny thing is that the comment: "Consequently, physics and biology generally exist in their own realms," which you sited, comes from the same wiki source that you used to refute said statement. So in a sense, you're outsmarting yourself.
A couple things:
I think you are losing your way by believing what I am really saying - but not saying - is that we need some "outside" agency (ghost in the machine?) to "explain" reality and causation. I can only wonder where you got that idea.
The next thing is embedded in this quote: "At what point along that line is an organism able to interface or become a suitable vessel for all this external non-stuff and by what means?"
This is not a question because you already have the "right" answer in your head and are challenging me to refute it. The problem here is that your supposition are so rigidly materialist that your questions beg a materialist "answer." I am not saying that "non-stuff" is external to reality nor yet that "stuff" is the only real aspect to who we are. Stuff is merely the material and quantifiable aspect. The non-material or the natural opposite of material is also our heritage. You position, known in the philosophy of mind as "physicalism," insists that all is physical.
An interesting thing is that both the physical and non-physical can be apprehended by consciousness. I don't want to get into arguments about qualia, but it's fun to consider that within our skin boundary, our senses tell us that we are solid, but at some level level we can be seen as being comprised of precious little "solid matter," (some would say none at all), and that the ratio of matter to space is disproportionately large per the space - meaning we harbor within our skin boundary far more empty space than matter at a ration exceeding a million to one. Now a further investigation would tell us that there is no such thing as empty space or container space, and staunch materialsts would insist that space in fact material, or at any rate is "created" by matter. But just like you" don't need to study the atomic behavior of my chair in order to determine whether or not I can sit in it," I don't need to study the atomic properties of space to know that I can experience, directly, this space with the same level of intimacy that I can the "stuff" in my life.
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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Largo,
My issue with your argument, regardless of who's language, is it is so restrained, not unlike being stuck on a tightwire unable to move or access anything but what is strung out behind or in front of you on the line. It's just as narrow, just as confining. Bottom line is you claim access to, and awareness of, something not-of-Largo or are positing a Largo-as-portal to non-stuff.
While, as you say, detouring the qualia loop, it seems you're intent on claiming that your 'non-stuff' is simultaneously of, and external to, the meat Largo. Pretty much puts your view in as a variant of the 'collective consciousness' / 'ether with information' crew one way or the other. Seems peculiar you can't come out and just say it in clear simple language.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 22, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
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"Seems peculiar you can't come out and just say it in clear simple language."
I've said it and a thousand others have said it better: The "it" you are asking for will only be acceptable to you so long as "it" is a quantifiable substance. Also, I've tried to explain the dual nature of reality - the is and the is-not, the material and non-material, the temporal and the infinite, but this apparently is either not registering for you or you can't imagine it. Ergo, you keep positing things in terms of one or the other - meat brain and non-stuff, as though the two are mutually exclusive. What I am saying as plain as day is that everything, including our meat brains, has this dual nature. Emptiness is form and form is emptiness, stuff is non-stuff and non-stuff is stuff.
I can't posit the "non-stuff" in plain language because "plain language" is
a mode used for stuff; for the opposite, that is for non stuff, the mode of apprehension is not language. This is no fault of non-stuff. That's like saying I only like to us one tool, and if I need to break out another tool, then the task itself is perforce invalid and wo wo.
Anyhow, the tool for working with non-stuff is raw awareness, for the nature of non-stuff is close to qualia, and qualia is ineffable; that is, it cannot be communicated, or apprehended by any other means than direct experience.
I can talk about his in plain language, and will, but it will have to wait a bit because I have a deadline.
Understand that this is not especially easy material to handle in the way folks would like, or in language and constructs that people are used to using.
JL
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jstan
climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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John has said it pretty directly. He can't say what he wants to say using language. So are we all not in agreement?
His picture of the reaching hands, was not language, and I thought did convey something. Not sure what really, but it was a step forward. It seemed to say humans are very desirous, perhaps even needy creatures.
We can't be sure what he is saying when he uses language, but he clearly wants to say something. So is not John himself evidencing that which was shown in the picture?
Perhaps this need shows up in many ways, one of them can be a need to believe some ethereal extension of ourselves "exists".
I could have used "is" instead of "exists" but in this context the meaning of neither is clear. And therein lies the nub of this thread and our lack of progress.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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Could just be me, but while much of this may be rocket science, I believe most of it can be discussed in simple, common language. The words 'collective consciousness' and 'ether w/ information' are close enough to convey the idea we're juggling about like so much a hot coal, always keeping it in the air.
And, hey, I'm a technologist who follows quantum computing developments on pretty much a weekly basis - I get the gist of it. As an ex-photographer I get the particle/wave thing. As a science junkie I roughly get the notion of quantum vacuum, Casimir effect, and virtual particles.
What I don't get is how meat can [consciously] interact with 'virtual information' that is, as Largo seems to posit, ubiquitous within and about us. What I don't get a simple clear statement of where Largo thinks consciousness 'lies' or is 'derived' from, nor do I know of any physiological 'receptor' interacting with any such 'stuff/non-stuff'. What I don't get is how the meat of Largo is so 'causally' incapable on one hand and the vehicle for his experience on the other.
It would all seem incredibly fishy, but I don't think Fish leans that way....
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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" ... so called non-stuff" doesn't exist, can't be proven to exist, and doesn't need to exist for the universe to work just fine."
So as you think.
But it doesn't hold true, ... because if it did .....
You would not exist.
Are you unconscious?
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:50pm PT
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Chalk one up for the gray beards!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
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"... and has never been achieved by anybody, ...."
But you ....
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 22, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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Your looking at it, it's God's world, if your breathing, now thank Him for it!
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jstan
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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"Anyhow, the tool for working with non-stuff is raw awareness, for the nature of non-stuff is close to qualia, and qualia is ineffable; that is, it cannot be communicated, or apprehended by any other means than direct experience."
John says he thinks what he is trying to communicate
is not communicable.
Why is he attempting something he himself considers impossible on first principles?
Since there can be no communication or conversions of others, John must simply be looking for others who have such experiences.
If I were in that position I would, in clear and simple language try to share the feelings and impressions I get in that activity. So individuals can compare their experience.
I don't detect this is happening.
So let me try. I'll describe what happens when I try to still the voice. The most basic experience everyone has.
First I have to set a time scale. Let's say two seconds, about two heart beats. Of course it is the voice that asks whether the time limit has been reached. So that iteration has been completed.
The next violation appears as a question. Did I just hear the voice? Same result.
Eventually it comes down to simply a feeling that the current iteration has to be over. But you can't put your finger on the source of that feeling. It is like something is going on in the background. Subdued but still operative.
Those of you who have imagined in this way
what do you get to next?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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But Santa Claus does exist.
The consciousness of Santa Claus is what "gives" ....
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:10am PT
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Pale reason hides the infinite from us
-Jim Morrison
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:51am PT
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I think JL is doing a fine job of using language to describe levels of awareness that you may not share. If you don't understand what he is talking about, it is probably because the words he is using do not relate to your experience base. In that case you can take what he says as a guide for seeking to add to your experience base. Or not...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 23, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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Or, maybe he and others of a 'like mind' are projecting onto their experiences and those experiences are indistinguishable from religious experience. Belief is a powerful affair.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 10:58am PT
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gobee took a small step in the right direction there, quoting jim morrison. that was so refreshing. anyone else appreciate that?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 24, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 24, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 24, 2010 - 05:44am PT
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Fructose-
It turns out there already is a Greek God of very similar name to yours - Harpocrates.
"Bronze statuettes in the Hellenistic styles favored in Egypt and the Levant have turned up at Qaryat al-Faw. There is Hercules, with his lion skin, and Harpocrates, the Hellenistic child-god of Egyptian origin".
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/24/arts/24iht-melik24.html?ref=saudiarabia
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Sanstone
climber
San Diego
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Jul 24, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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DR F posts:
Hey Goobers
what has God done lately, we haven't seen him doing much lately
all I see is things going to hell, and Christians seem to be bent on an early armageddon
Is that what God Wants?
"Knights Of Cydonia" - Muse
Come ride with me
Through the veins of history
I'll show you how god
Falls asleep on the job
And how can we win
When fools can be kings
Don't waste your time
Or time will waste you
Muse
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Sanstone
climber
San Diego
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Jul 25, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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On the prompting from a close friend,and reluctantly, I decided to see what all the comotion was about on this thread. As a result I went through over 2,000 of the previous posts to see what had been going on. I found it amusing and pathetic at the same time. Along the way lyrics from many musicians popped up in my head. "Freewill" by Rush was one, but it was already posted. I'll throw on a few more that seem to fit the thread.
My God – Jethro Tull
People - what have you done
locked Him in His golden cage.
Made Him bend to your religion
Him resurrected from the grave.
He is the god of nothing
if that's all that you can see.
You are the god of everything
He's inside you and me.
So lean upon Him gently
and don't call on Him to save you
from your social graces
and the sins you used to waive.
The bloody Church of England
in chains of history
requests your earthly presence at
the vicarage for tea.
And the graven image you-know-who
with His plastic crucifix
he's got him fixed
confuses me as to who and where and why
as to how he gets his kicks.
Confessing to the endless sin
the endless whining sounds.
You'll be praying till next Thursday to
all the gods that you can count.
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Sanstone
climber
San Diego
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Jul 25, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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Jethro Tull - Wind up
So I left there in the morning
with their God tucked underneath my arm
their half-assed smiles and the book of rules.
So I asked this God a question
and by way of firm reply,
He said - I'm not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
I don't believe you:
you had the whole damn thing all wrong
He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
how do you dare tell me that I'm my Father's son
when that was just an accident of Birth.
In your pomp and all your glory you're a poorer man than me,
as you lick the boots of death born out of fear.
I don't believe you:
you had the whole damn thing all wrong
He's not the kind you have to wind up on Sundays.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 25, 2010 - 12:24am PT
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Sanstone
climber
San Diego
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Jul 25, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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Let's try a little Soundgarden. Chris Cornell was another one that vomited on his overdose of religion (not to be confused with spirituality). If it's life you want to drink!
"Holy Water" lyrics
Holy water on the brain and I'm losing sleep.
Holy bible on the night stand next to me. As I'm raped by another monkey circus freak. Trying to take my indignance away from me. Holy water is rusting me. Bloody murder is the best I've heard her scream. Holy devil in the flesh some might believe. And they take thine majesty so seriously. It's the big lies that are more likely to be believed. Holy water is rusting me. Damn the water if it's life you want to drink. Mind your mother if it makes you feel at ease. As you're raped by another monkey circus freak. It's the big lies that are more likely to be believed.
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pa
climber
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Jul 25, 2010 - 12:55am PT
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What I don't get is how meat can (consciously) interact with "virtual information", that is, as Largo seems to posit, ubiquitous within and about us.
Healyje,
do we know what "meat" is, really?
and what about information? In-formation...
It brings to mind that split second, when you are seriously run-out, falling is not an option, you have tried the move sixty times...and suddenly, you just do it. The conversation in your head stopped, the split second is a brief eternity, it is not your rational mind directing, nor is it a reflex...what is it?
It is a simultaneous bridging of all faculties, it is a knowing that bypasses thinking, it is visualizing in action. It is the immaterial manifesting.
How?
Beats me.
Maybe that's the interface you speak of.
John used to talk about soloing as the best tool he knew of to go beyond the mind. Not that he didn't cherish the intellect, because he did, very much. But he was convinced it is just a tool, one of many at our disposal.
Soloing allowed him to cultivate them.
We are all questing over this...proof is in this pudding, with over 3000 posts.
In an evolutionary sense, we are still as children playing with matches.
I suffocate
for not understanding the world
The same sky
unfolding over everything
The obstinacy of life
Bertrand Noel
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Sanstone
climber
San Diego
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Jul 25, 2010 - 01:26am PT
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"Waste Of Time" - Pennywise
I've got a question for all you sinners
Have you ever wondered is this all there is to life?
A quick adventure not much to mention
A slow procession leading us to die
Is there a heaven a distant valley
A golden meadow waiting for us in the sky
No one right answer spirit seems broken
Still I just can't help but wonder why
Seems like a tragic waste of time
Who cares what happens when you die?
Life's too short to wonder why
Get on with your life
In towering churches and holy temples
They all conspired to tell me how to live my life
But no religion or new theism
Could ever provide proof to quench my mind
And now I wonder whos's sky I'm under
Is there a heaven waiting for me when I die
No one right answer spirit seems
And still I can't help but wonder why
Seems like a tragic waste of time
Who cares what happens when you die?
Life's too short to wonder why
Get on with your life
So many questions I can't tell the difference
Too many abstract thoughts now wrestle in my mind
But through the darkness somewhere should be waiting
A final truth to shower me with light
Their pearls of wisdom and tales of glory
They fed me nicely until I found it was all a lie
No one right answer spirit seems broken
And still I can't help but wonder why
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 25, 2010 - 06:22am PT
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From the latest issue of SciAm's "50, 100, & 150 Years Ago" column:
August 1860 / Sir Benjamin Brodie on why he did not subscribe to Charles Darwin's theory:
'Man has a power of self-consciousness as principle differing from anything found in the material world. This power of man was identical with the divine intelligence and to suppose that this could originate with matter involved the absurdity of supposing the source of divine power dependent on the arrangement of matter.'
Looks like not much has changed in a 150 years...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jul 25, 2010 - 09:39am PT
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whenas in silks my julia goes,
then, then, methinks, how sweetly flows
that liquefaction of her clothes.
--robert herrick
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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From today's NYTimes:
The Limits of the Coded World - By WILLIAM EGGINTON
In an influential article in the Annual Review of Neuroscience, Joshua Gold of the University of Pennsylvania and Michael Shadlen of the University of Washington sum up experiments aimed at discovering the neural basis of decision-making. In one set of experiments, researchers attached sensors to the parts of monkeys’ brains responsible for visual pattern recognition. The monkeys were then taught to respond to a cue by choosing to look at one of two patterns. Computers reading the sensors were able to register the decision a fraction of a second before the monkeys’ eyes turned to the pattern. As the monkeys were not deliberating, but rather reacting to visual stimuli, researchers were able to plausibly claim that the computer could successfully predict the monkeys’ reaction. In other words, the computer was reading the monkeys’ minds and knew before they did what their decision would be.
We have no reason to assume that either predictability or lack of predictability has anything to say about free will.
The implications are immediate. If researchers can in theory predict what human beings will decide before they themselves know it, what is left of the notion of human freedom? ...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 26, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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Dr.F- "That's the beauty of evolution, and the failing of creationism...evolution explains it all with, with zero gaps, and no faith required."
Dr.F- "Something does not come from nothing."
??????????????
It had to start somewhere, FROM WHAT?
Nothing?
Or there is something that has always existed.
That takes a great leap of FAITH!
You have no answer for WHAT that SOMETHING was.
Creationist do...GOD!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 26, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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The point is everyone has faith in something, Locker!
Dr.F has faith that "something" always existed!
Edit: I have to go to the store...talk to ya later you FAITHFUL ones!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 27, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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I didn't say there was nothing!
There has always been "something", that "Something" was/is God!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 27, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 27, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
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What was before the Big Bang?
Nothing?
Who made the Big Bang happen, and from what...nothing?
You are saying that there was "nothing" and then there was the "Big Bang"?
Which equals "something" from "nothing"?
In your words..."impossible".
Or...
There was always "something"...and then the "Big Bang"?
That equals "faith" in "something" on your part.
YOU Dr.F, are the "illogical" one.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 29, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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Cosmology and the Bible are in agreement.
This video series has something for everyone.
If you are a GODless Evolutionist you will learn that Science and the Bible are now in agreement.
If you are a young Earth Creationist you will learn what the 6 days really are . . . and how is that explained and what does it mean. Very good program. I also recommend his book.
The Science of God - Dr. Gerald Schroeder Part 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRxEeHFHc-Y
Also . . .
Dr.Gerald Schroeder Genesis & The Big Bang Theory (1 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sicqKbFhcq8&feature=related
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 29, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
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"Cosmology and the Bible are in agreement."
This is the most harebrained statement ever recorded at supertopo.com.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 29, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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Dr F, you don't have a clue. You are just spouting your beliefs, which is fine. But thats all they are.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 29, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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Dr.F- "Before the Big Bang there was matter and energy, huge amounts..."
I am simply stating that you believe that there was ALWAYS "something."
The key word is "believe" which equates to "faith" on your part.
Our common ground is the "energy" force behind that "matter".
And I do agree with you in that this "energy" has "always" existed.
Where we diverge is on the subject of this physical/tangible "matter".
I do not subscribe to your "belief/faith" that this "matter" has "always" existed.
I believe this "matter" had a beginning.
I believe that "matter" was created by this "energy"...and this "energy" is in fact, God.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 29, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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Dr.F- You are simply lost(can only wonder/speculate about the past, deny the future/hope there is no eternity).
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 29, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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jesus is a turd on the lawn of life.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 29, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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I'll ask a question.
What are the questions to which the bible says simply, "We don't know"?
Are there any?
About something coming from nothing.
As regards what if anything preceded the big bang I have read that in the presence of that high a mass concenration time itself may have been ill-defined. My feeling is the answer is we do not presently know.
Until recently, while we thought the universe's expansion had eventually to slow. many expected nature to feature cycles of big bangs followed by big crunches. More recent data indicates the expansion is actually accelerating. We have been disappointed before when we had hopes nature was an un-ending process. It was once thought the universe was in equilibrium, but studies of red-shifted light showed it to be expanding at a great rate. String theorists have an interesting idea that there are parallel universes that cannot see each other. We are like bubbles in the head on a beer. You pick the theory you want to study. Face it. Not knowing can be a fascinating experience.
I believe 777 asked "who created something?"
777, your thinking is patently anthropocentric. You can say "who" is just an unimportant word. But if you are looking to put your thinking on firmer ground, your use of that word is a wonderful signpost. You have a chance to learn.
But as to the question can something be created from nothing, I'll suggest the question is purposely constructed to be a conundrum. Nothing is an awfully big concept. There may be several kinds of nothing for all we know. This is a question we are not yet even in a position to word.
Edit:
777:
Your post reveals your goal is only to show Dr. F. is wrong. Nothing else.
Why do you choose such a small goal? At one time or another everyone is wrong.
Did you allow him to offend you? Someone can offend a person only if that person allows it. Why would anyone permit such a thing? Have never understood how this is allowed to happen. Perhaps you can explain this to me.
The goal of improving one's understanding has no end. Now there is a real goal.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 29, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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jstan, Dr.F stated "Evolution explains it all, with no gaps, and with no faith required"!
I was simply illustrating that he has placed everything(the whole enchilada)on his FAITH that there has always been this "energy and matter" before and after the Big Bang. And that his belief in the existence of that eternal "something"(energy and matter)requires FAITH.
According to Dr.F, this "something" energy and matter, had no beginning, and therefore it will have no end. Why? Because then it would have had to have been made/created by something else!
I am simply saying faith is required for what Dr.F believes/postulates...he assumes it to be true without proof, this requires "faith" on his part. Or perhaps he is deluded?
So once again I will state that he is the one who is being illogical by denying that it does not require faith to believe that his proposition is true...to assume/assert the reality of it.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 29, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
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From a science point of view, to go beyond or before the Big Bang is extremely hard to do since the Big Bang is the beginning of time and space, not just the existance of energy, and then energy into matter.
This article eludes to how hard it is to peer before the Big Bang. It is pure speculation. We really do not know. For Science to speculate and say what came before is pure faith at this point using speculative models. And there are several models that speculate prior to the Big Bang. Yes, Science at times excercises faith, believe it or not. It is just guessing and speculating at this point. Once again, we do not really know. About as much as science can say is energy is. And yes, it is faith based. Remember, time and space began with the Big Bang. What exactly existed and in what form prior to the Big Bang is a guess.
Glimpse of Time Before Big Bang Possible
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070702_mm_big_bang.html
From a GOD believing point of view, prior to the big Bang, we can not know exactly either. We know He is forever. He is without beginning and without end. The Good Book says so. It is also Faith based. We just say GOD is. We have some details prior to Creation, in the Good Book, but not a great deal. It is easy to start asking questions that we simply do not know the answer to. This doesn't bother those who believe in GOD. We may know one day, and that certainly is one of our hopes -- to know.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 29, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
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Dr.F, I understand the First Law of Thermodynamics, basically the total amount of energy remains the same(available energy/unavailable energy). Energy is not lost, it is transferred etc. What we are discussing is how did this energy/matter come into existance. You say it has always been here. Hmnnn.
Proove it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 29, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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What I am asking is WHAT exploded in the Big Bang? How is that the world began?
How do you explain the Second Law of Thermodynamics? The universal law of entropy(everything decays over time). Everything gradually gets worse, nothing gets better.
The theory of evolution, and survival of the fittest discribes a process which everything gets better over time. Unneeded and unused traits become extinct, while needed and useful traites(such as the eyeball) evolve.
The Bible is compatible with entropy. "Of old You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Even they will perish, but You endure. They will wear out like a garmet. Like clothing You will change them, and they will be changed." Psalm 102:25-26
As it declares throughout the Bible. How did these "dumb old sheepherders" know this?
Edit: The Law of Cause and Effect states that for every effect there has to be a cause. What caused the Big Bang? What caused the matter and elements to form the way they did?
The Law of Biogenisis states life comes only from life. The theory of evolution calls for(at some point)life evolving from nonliving matter.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 29, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
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Let's get at least one fact right?
In the 1800's when Darwin published his monumental Origin of the Species,
evolution was THEN called a "theory"
It is NOW 2010, and evolution is NOT considered a "theory" anymore.
Evolution is a scientific FACT, supported by rigorous and extensive research.
Does anyone here really believe that constant change(evolution) is not the best
proven explanation for the 4.5 billion year history of the earth? Or course not.
Just because science cannot "explain" by tested research what came before
the big bang, does NOT mean automatically that science is a "failure".
Nor does it mean that this is somehow "proof" of a Guy in the Sky (god).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 29, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
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Norton, then it would be safe to say that evolution does not explain it all with no gaps(not so according to Dr.F).
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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Jul 29, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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Here's the thing......I AM God.
So are You. Dig it, chirrens.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 29, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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Norweenie!!!
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jstan
climber
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Jul 29, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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We get ourselves so confused when we try to reason in absolutes.
We need to think in terms of models that allow us to make calculations that can be compared to observation. Darwin's model has been compared to huge amounts of data so there are points of comparison now too numerous to count. We can hardly count the number of specie that have evolved, demonstrably and now with DNA data people are even able to talk in terms of the rates with which mutations appear.
Some claim the bible presents a competing model. That model invokes a mechanism, a god, for which there is no confirming data at all. And I am not familiar with any successful point of comparison between observables and what is described in the bible. This alternative model is not credible.
That second model also fails the test of Occam's razor which, mind you, is more a rule of thumb. Even if the bible conformed with observation just as well as does Darwin's model, which is not even vaguely the case, Darwin still would be preferred. When two models have equal success Occam's razor suggests one should choose the model having the fewest assumptions. We have been trying for several thousand years to obtain data as to whether any god exists. No success yet.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 29, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 30, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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jstan -- "We have been trying for several thousand years to obtain data as to whether any god exists."
No ... you've just been using the wrong instrument to obtain data.
Every second, every nano second, God's data is being exhibited right in front of you, within you and all around you.
Still you deny.
Very strange way to be a scientist ......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 30, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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Thanks Jan!
Didn't know Christopher Hitchens was battling esophagus(links throat to stomach)cancer...very sad.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 30, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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Faith and Reason are antithetical terms. Nuke this thread, there is no possibility of the warring groups reaching any accommodation. This thread has become an exercise in vanity with the participants showing off their erudition- or so they believe.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jul 30, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
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Dr. F!
Let me begin with this, the Dude I know could have created it in a fraction of a second. I don't know all the mystery's behind the creation, such as "...with the Lord, one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day." 2 Peter 3:8
He created time with the universe. What is it like without time/aging etc? I don't know.
With that said, I believe that He is capable of getting the information to use down through the centuries, regardless of the shortcomings of man. And He did in the Holy Bible. He didn't have to depend on man's inability to do so. Just look at the Dead Sea Scrolls. The King James Bible is identicle to what the DSS contains...1500 years later.
So, if He said He did it in six days, then He did it in six days.
FWIW...I'll say it again, it's a relationship, not a religion. I am the most obstinate, hard headed person I know, but He revealed Himself to me. I have no doubts.
It is about knowing a Person.
So go ahead and start with the imaginary friend thing...
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pa
climber
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Jul 30, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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"SYNTAX:
A man staring at his equations
said that the universe had a beginning.
There had been an explosion, he said.
A bang of bangs, and the universe was born.
And it is expanding, he said.
He had even calculated the length of its life;
ten billion revolutions of the earth around the sun.
The entire globe cheered,
They found his calculations to be science.
None thought that by proposing that the universe began,
the man had merely mirrored the syntax of his mother tongue;
a syntax which demands beginnings, like birth,
and developments, like maturation,
and ends, like death, as statements of facts.
The universe began,
and it is getting old, the man assured us,
and it will die, like all things die,
like he himself died after confirming mathematically
the syntax of his mother tongue.
THE OTHER SYNTAX
Did the universe really begin?
Is the theory of the big bang true?
These are not questions, though they sound like they are.
Is the syntax that requires beginnings, developments
and ends as statements of fact the only syntax that exists?
That's the real question.
There are other syntaxes.
There is one for example, which demands that varieties
of intensity be taken as facts.
In that syntax nothing begins and nothing ends;
thus birth is not a clean, clear-cut event,
but a specific type of intensity,
and so is maturation, and so is death.
A man of that syntax, looking over his equations, finds that
he has calculated enough varieties of intensity
to say with authority
that the universe never began
and will never end,
but that it has gone, and is going now, and will go
through endless fluctuations of intensity.
That man could very well conclude that the universe itself
is the chariot of intensity
and that one can board it
to journey through changes without end.
He will conclude all that, and much more,
perhaps without ever realizing
that he is merely confirming
the syntax of his mother tongue."
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 30, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
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Dr. F,
I gave you the answer you are now asking and seeking. Yes, it will take a little time to view it but it is worth it.
Posted before:
Cosmology and the Bible are in agreement.
This video series has something for everyone.
If you are a GODless Evolutionist you will learn that Science and the Bible are now in agreement.
If you are a young Earth Creationist you will learn what the 6 days really are . . . and how is that explained and what does it mean. Very good program. I also recommend his book.
The Science of God - Dr. Gerald Schroeder Part 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRxEeHFHc-Y
Also . . .
Dr.Gerald Schroeder Genesis & The Big Bang Theory (1 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sicqKbFhcq8&feature=related
I can't explain it better than the good PhD Schroeder. It is a brilliant discussion on Modern Science: Modern Physics, Modern Cosmology, and the Bible, and GOD, and the incredible unity and agreement among them all.
Like Galileo said, Those who misinterpret the Heavens perhaps also misinterpret the Bible (paraphrase). He was correct on both accounts and he suffered house arrest under the rule of the Catholic Church.
Now, the Catholic Church accepts Modern Cosmology and Evolution. Go figure.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 31, 2010 - 12:12am PT
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Here from the Wikipedia post on John Muir:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir
Philosophical beliefs
Of nature and theology
A portrait of Muir, circa 1910. Muir understood that if he hoped to discover truth, he had to turn to what he believed to be the most accurate sources. In his book, The Story of My Boyhood and Youth (1913), he writes that during his childhood, his father made him read the Bible every day. Muir eventually memorized three quarters of the Old Testament and all of the New Testament.[6]:20 Historian Dennis Williams adds that his father had read Josephus's War of the Jews in order to understand the culture of first-century Palestine, as it was written by an eyewitness, and illuminated the culture during the period of the New Testament.[34]:43 But as Muir became attached to the American natural landscapes he explored, Williams notes that he began to see another "primary source for understanding God: the Book of Nature." According to Williams, in nature, especially in the wilderness, Muir was able to study the plants and animals in an environment that he believed "came straight from the hand of God, uncorrupted by civilization and domestication."[34]:43 As Tallmadge notes, Muir's belief in this "Book of Nature" compelled him to tell the story of "this creation in words any reader could understand." As a result, his writings were to become "prophecy, for [they] sought to change our angle of vision."[18]:53
Williams notes that Muir's philosophy and world view rotated around his perceived dichotomy between civilization and nature. From this developed his core belief that "wild is superior".[34]:41 His nature writings became a "synthesis of natural theology" with scripture that helped him understand the origins of the natural world. According to Williams, philosophers and theologians such as Thomas Dick suggested that the "best place to discover the true attributes of deity was in Nature." He came to believe that God was always active in the creation of life and thereby kept the natural order of the world.[34]:41 As a result, Muir "styled himself as a John the Baptist," adds Williams, "whose duty was to immerse in 'mountain baptism' everyone he could."[34]:46 Williams concludes that Muir saw nature as a great teacher, "revealing the mind of God," and this belief became the central theme of his later journeys and the "subtext" of his nature writing.[34]:50
During his career as writer and while living in the mountains, Muir continued to experience the "presence of the divine in nature," writes Holmes[4]:5 From Travels in Alaska: "Every particle of rock or water or air has God by its side leading it the way it should go; The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness; In God's wildness is the hope of the world."[35]:317 His personal letters also conveyed these feelings of ecstasy. Historian Catherine Albanese stated that in one of his letters, "Muir's eucharist made Thoreau's feast on wood-chuck and huckleberry seem almost anemic." She added that "Muir had successfully taken biblical language and inverted it to proclaim the passion of attachment, not to a supernatural world but to a natural one. To go to the mountains and sequoia forests, for Muir, was to engage in religious worship of utter seriousness and dedication." She quotes Muir's letter: Do behold the King in his glory, King Sequoia. Behold! Behold! seems all I can say. Some time ago I left all for Sequoia: have been and am at his feet fasting and praying for light, for is he not the greatest light in the woods; in the world.[36]:100
John Muir, our modern John the Baptist -- Crying Out in the Wilderness . . .
John was many things: Climber, Writer, Evironmentalist, Father of the National parks, Scientist/Naturalist, Theologist, Preacher of Wilderness, and willing to take some amazing dangerous risks. I would say he was very much into adventure. And he shared all of it with the World.
He saw GOD and knew GOD through Nature. He then shared that with the World through his wonderful writings.
Welcome to The Sierra Nevada Mountains and Yosemite: The First Church of GOD, Preacher John Muir. Enjoy the Sermon and Enjoy your Stay. Get Back to GOD Naturally.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jul 31, 2010 - 04:45am PT
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God doesn't promise to bless bible memorizers, he promises to bless bible meditators!
"Blessed is the man...But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His Law doeth he meditate day and night." Psalm 1a-2
What did you meditate on today?
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 31, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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Goodbye to our good friend Jeff Batten (JuanDeFuca) who started this thread.
Peace ......
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Jul 31, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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WB...I agree...also it makes you wonder...are there such things as coincidences...interesting thread and what has transpired.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 31, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
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All of us on this thread make a tapestry, Jeff will be missed!
May we all meet in heaven, thank you Jesus!
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WBraun
climber
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One day of Brahma is calculated at 4,300,000,000 of our earthly years.
And one night is the same, 4,300,000,000 of our earthly years.
Brahma lives for 100 years.
Dr F thinks he knows everything ......
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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A moment to remember please, Jeff Batten who started this thread and many others of entertainment and learning. Our debates about the afterlife obviously did not help him to go on living and for whatever reason he left us on May 25.
I'm sure we can all agree however, that he would want us to keep looking for answers. It's the search that counts, not the conclusion.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there jan... say, i am here, just now...
i salute you for this...
well said, to remember juan, just now...
very very sad...
thanks for the note...
god bless...
and to his family...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"Here is the problem 777...you will have to answer this."
Dr.F, you have some good questions, and I admire your persistence and deliberations...you have/are obviously giving it considerable thought.
What I was attempting to explain or convey, is that I had considerable personal interactions & revelations by the time I was 18. Although very little book/head knowledge. And I must have had a mustard seed size of faith at 8yrs old, because that is all that is required to initiate this relationship.
I called on Jesus at 8 yrs. old, and He(His spiritual presence and power)got me out of a very difficult situation. Saved my life. I was about to be murdered. I was a Catholic at the time, but left the Cath. Church at 13 years old. For one reason, we had moved to Salt Lake City when I was 13, and the closest(perhaps only)church was a long way away. I use to walk to church in Cali. And when I did go, it was because I chose to, and felt that the Guy I new wanted me to go and think about Him for an hour on Sunday. Because other then stand up and sit down on cue, the only other thing to do was look at the pictures. Because Mass back then was in Latin.
I did not know, or had heard of any other church's that believed in Christ, this was the 60's. And the Nun's would scare the hell out of ya by saying that if you even went into another church, that was it, you would go to hell, etc. Well things like that didn't seem to fit the Person I new, etc.
And I had not even seen a bible, let alone read one.
But I did have a personal relationship with Christ. In that ten years, 8 to almost 19, some miraculous/divine intervention, a vision, a prophecy that was revealed to me came true(actually two). An Epiphany etc. Rather unusual experiences for anyone, including Christians.
But I new the moment He intervened in my life at eight. That 1)He was Jesus & 2)He was God. It was His nature/personal attributes/presence, there was no question about it. It is impossible to explain. He is as real as any member of your family, or a friend is to you.
So, about two months before my 19th birthday I met a Christian gal, she gave me a tract explaining some things, and kept telling me that God loved me, and would forgive anything I had done. I had drifted somewhat, and was blaming Him for the mess the world was in etc. And two of my closest friends died at 18. I never doubted He was God, even then, but had become very bitter. Some very remarkable things/revelations occurred, and I started reading/studying the bible.
So, let's say you new some one very well. And then after ten years or so, people start trying to convince you otherwise, that this person does not exist. And they say that this book about him etc. doesn't make sense! Are you going to tell the person you know "hey, get lost"?
It is a relationship, a powerful one.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I don't particularly care when He made/created the world.
But I don't believe it was 1 million years ago. The bible has the time line, and you can follow the generations back to Noah.
Jesus said the bible was the Word of God...good enough for me.
And I feel no obligation to answer the ten thousand questions that you will have over the next ten years if this thread endures...
You are spiritually blind, and lack the faith to correct your blindness. And are frustrated and bitter towards those who obtain it.
I have already told of various instances where God intervened in my life(mainly on other threads) and you can't comprehend them, refuse to. Understandable.
And you have chosen an agenda to attempt to destroy the faith of others.
Nothing can destroy mine.
Adios, Dr.F[aithless]...
~777~
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Trip7,
You say you do not believe the earth is one million years old.
You say to follow the bible time line back to Noah.
Ok, so let's do exactly that, and we will see that there are 42 generations between Adam the exile. Very safe to assume 30 years per generation.
Therefore, only 1950 years passed between Adam and Eve and the exile.
refute this:
It says later in the bible that there were 14 generations between Adam and Abraham, 14 between Abraham and David, and 14 between David and the exile.
 In The Beginning - Adam and Eve. 2:7 and 2:22
130 Seth, son of Adam with Eve, born 5:3
235 Enosh, son of Seth, born 5:6
325 Kenan, son of Enosh, born 5:9
395 Mahalalel, son of Kenan, born 5:12
460 Jared, son of Mahalalel, born 5:15
622 Enoch, son of Jared, born 5:18
687 Methuselah, son of Enoch, born 5:21
874 Lamech, son of Methusaleh, born 5:25
930 Adam dies 5:5
1042 Seth dies 5:8
1052 Enoch walks with God 5:23-24
1056 Noah, son of Lamech, born 5:28-29
1140 Enosh dies 5:11
1235 Kenan dies 5:14
1290 Mahalalel dies 5:17
1422 Jared dies 5:20
1558 Shem, son of Noah, born 5:32
1651 Lamech dies 5:31
1656 Methusaleh dies, the year of the Flood 5:27
1656 On the seventeenth day of the second month, the Flood begins. 7:11
1657 On the seventeenth day of the seventh month, Noah's Ark lands on mountains of Ararat 8:4
1657 On the twenty-seventh day of the second month, Noah and his family exit the ark 8:13-14
1658 Arpachshad, son of Shem, born 11:10
1693 Shelah, son of Arpachshad, born 11:12
1723 Eber, son of Shelah, born 11:14
1757 Peleg, son of Eber, born 11:16
1787 Reu, son of Peleg, born 11:18
1819 Serug, son of Reu, born 11:20
1849 Nahor, son of Serug, born 11:22
1878 Terah, son of Nahor, born 11:24
1948 Abram, son of Terah, born 11:26
Trip7, stick to mysticism, blind faith, and just plain ignorance.
Don't even try to use logic (timelines), science, math, or reason.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton- "Stick to...don't even try to use logic..."
YES SIR, SIR! MAY I BE AT EASE NOW SIR, SIR?
Norton- "You say to follow the bible time line..."
I was telling Dr.Faithless to go look at it for himself if he wanted to know what I believed. I was not trying to use LOGIC to prove anything. Like I said "I have NO obligation to prove anything. I was simply stating I believe what the BIBLE says, so go read and study it to find out what I believe.
Or go to Wikipedia...like you just did for the time line(not saying it is always accurate).
And FWIW, a generation was forty years in the Old Testament.
You guys are really getting wiggy(wigged out)...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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socialclimber- "Fairly certain..."
Bible = Old & New Testament.
Jesus quoted from Old Testament frequently.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1949, and date back to about 200 BC.
They were found to be identical to the King James Bible which was written/printed in 1611...some 1700-1800 years later! That pretty much silenced the KNOWLEDGEABLE naysayers/critics. Of course this day and age people(especially the youth)spout off these fallacies without investigating for themselves...sad.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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If you are so hell-bent on demanding people live by the "word of god" as dictated in the bible, then I assume you are a living an exemplary life as such. If you are deviating by even just one "rule", then why aren't you a hypocrite? Here are some more questions taken from the excellent letter to Dr Laura Schlessinger posted in 2002:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your posts, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes- "splitting hairs...which they clearly are NOT"
The oldest Old Testament manuscript(the most authoritative Hebrew text, Textus Recepticus) used by the King James translators was dated 1100 A.D. Obviously that old manuscript of 1100 A. D. was a copy, of a copy, of a copy, etc. for over 2,000 years. They were VIRTUALLY identical to the Dead Sea Scrolls.
After careful and tedious comparison of the manuscripts, they discovered that, aside from a tiny amount of spelling variations, NOT A SINGLE WORD WAS ALTERED from the Dead Sea Scrolls.
How could the Bible be copied so accurately and faithfully over the centuries without human error entering into the text? The answer is found in the the overwhelming respect and fear of God of the Jewish and Christian scholars who's job was to faithfully copy the Bible. And the inspiration/intervention of God(Holy Spirit).
Is that the best you can do on this subject
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skeptimistic- "if you are so hell bent on demanding that people live by the "word of god" as dictated by the bible..."
"DEMANDING"
WTF??
You must be thinking of the Taliban?
Dude, you are clueless, I have no illusions as to what society/people are going to do, and personally DGAD!
You musta had a bad childhood, or been listening to the wrong voices...
Lol...
Skep- "I have learned a great deal from your posts..."
Oh, OK that explains it, your talking about someone else!!
Edit: Oh I got it, ya cut and pasted the whole damn thing...cept fer the first Q.
Can't ya think for yur self?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I was telling Dr.Faithless to go look at it for himself if he wanted to know what I believed. I was not trying to use LOGIC to prove anything. Like I said "I have NO obligation to prove anything. I was simply stating I believe what the BIBLE says, so go read and study it to find out what I believe.
You can't trust those Biblical Genealogies anyway. If you check the genealogy of Jesus in the new Testament against the Old Testament Geneologies, you'll find they don't match. People are left out. There's no way to square it. One must be wrong.
It's also weird that the new testament would use a genealogy through Joeseph while Jesus supposedly had none of his blood.
Doesn't mean Jesus wasn't great nor his teaching profound, but folks who believe the Bible is the perfect, in errant word of God, perfectly preserved, just haven't studied it. See Bart Erhman's book "Jesus interrupted"
http://tinyurl.com/29595eu
Also worthy of Note: There are over 5000 manuscript of the Bible. Not one of them is perfectly identical to even one other. There are no originals of any book preserved. You'd think if God wanted to communicate through a book, he would have preserved those books. Spriit is within, even a book can be a form of idolotry.
You just don't know what you are talking about Trip. Did you know the story of Jesus and the Adulterer being almost stoned was never included in the bible until after 1200?
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Skept- the best post in a long time. Thanks for taking charge. It's the Trip7s of the world who are clueless, basing their lives on bronze age stupidities. Some of us don't care how appealing the narrative, how inspiring the story, it is still formulated from bronze age stupidities. Time our species moved past it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Heck, it's worth repeating:
Skept- the best post in a long time. Thanks for taking charge. It's the Trip7s of the world who are clueless, basing their lives on bronze age stupidities. Some of us don't care how appealing the narrative, how inspiring the story, it is still formulated from bronze age stupidities. Time our species moved past it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"I would like to sell my daughter into slavery...what do you think would be a fair price?"
PICS...PICS!! The more the better, here on S/T anyway...
Locker would be the dude with the lowdown on such and such...he even has a "BLOW-UP DOll" that he would probably through in fer next ta nothin!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Get a grip. We're mortal beings. Deal with it. "God" at best is a personification of fate or destiny or controlling powers or forces. Deal with it. That is the new attitude that needs to sweep the land. "Attitude is everything." Deal with your fears. Deal with your ignorance (of the science models). Deal with your mortality.
Perhaps that's a good motto for the age-
Just deal with it.
If anything's immortal, it is our genes and our phenotypes. (Phenotypes? Look it up if you must. It's a modern concept worth knowing about.) Every human being "lives on" through the biotic and human functionalities of subsequent generations. -That's as good as it gets. Good enough for you? Great. Not good enough for you? Too bad. The advice: Just deal with it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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You think he meant to destroy the thread frame like that?
How about re-sizing the image.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes- "PICS...PICS..."
It was a Joke...because the Skept is obviously a Joke!
And I was obviously being obnoxious (and was hoping to get a laugh out of Locker). I did so because I thought the poster(Skept)was being obnoxous "I have really enjoyed your posts and learned allot) but then realized he had cut/pasted that from someone else after I had posted...You would make a really rigid/self-righteous Christian with the views you have on what Christians are like...no sense of humor, wouldn't let your kid listen to Heavy Metal, judge people for being Heroin addicts before they become Christians, and on and on.
That's about all you can do Wes is take things out of context and DENY (Dead Sea Scrolls/King James).
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Hmm. Looks like I hit a nerve there... Funny, I don't remember addressing my post to you directly.
By the defensive nature of your replies, I'm guessing that you feel insecure in your philosophy, finding it particularly difficult to resolve your desire to "live the word of the bible" and the often heinous & barbaric laws laid down therein.
If you're going to live by a book that you say is "god's law", then you cannot cherry pick the ones you like or try to write them off as poorly conceived. Doing that means you think you're above god and I believe that's blasphemy in your book.
Relax. Jesus isn't coming. There will be no armageddon. There is no god up on a cloud looking down & deciding who's going to win the lottery or die in a car wreck. Sh!t just happens. Kindness & morality exist in a person's heart and is a product of their environment & experiences, not because certain codes of behavior have been immortalized in a collection of stories handed down through the centuries.
Frankly, people who spout religious verses scare the crap out of me. Largely because I know they haven't the ability to reason for themselves and are in all likelihood certifiable. They like to start wars and bully people into behaving the way they desire. Sure there are some good people too. I know quite a few of them. I do think they're a bit delusional, but they're mostly harmless and sometimes do good.
If you want to live your life "as seen in the bible", then have at it. But don't think I will subscribe to your views just because you wave some moldy book in my face and tell me that some hallucination told you god says so.
The best description of what I think god would look like is detailed in the Bhagavad Gita when Krishna reveals himself to Arjuna. The sum total of everything all at once. Kinda how I envision the universe. We're all just little knots of consciousness interconnected by a plane of energy. And when we die, our energy just flows back into the grid. Taken all together, that's god. But there is no overriding direction of conscience. Just being. In space & time.
Ok, enough of this. Back to studying for my exit exams. Thanks for reinforcing my conclusions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skepti-
You didn't even come close to "hitting a nerve". Norton et. al. have been going to the various atheist websites like www.evilbible.com and cut and pasting Old Testament verses on an almost daily basis for the last year.
If anything, it was a result of knowing that you had absolutely no interest in discussing anything(therefore a "joke"). And your smug derision of a person you have absolutely no clue of in regards to their moral or theological beliefs. That person being go-be(me, or anyone else for that matter) since he is the only one who has posted Bible verses.
Presumptuous and assuming rant...nothing new on your part(as far as "nerve's" are concerned).
Edit: Jesus/New Testament initiated a New Covenant with mankind!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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mistic- "Thanks for reinforcing my conclusions."
Your Eternally welcome!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Trip, one does not need to go to evil bible or any "atheist" websites, in
order to quote things that prove that the bible was written by men.
One can simply go right to the bible itself for the same quotes that you
do not like to read, the ones where "god" tells us all to rape and murder.
You cannot have it both ways Trip.
If as you believe, the bible was written by the Guy in the Sky, then
EVERY part of bible was written by "god".
Nothing factually wrong about direct quotes from the bible, and it does
not matter if those quotes come from a website or a hard copy of the bible.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Ah yes, the Old Testament, the irrefutable word of GOD>
God Commands Burning Humans
[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nope, but my avitar is appropriate, having been called a "devil" on this forum.
So, what is it?
A devout Christian believes that the bible was written by god. Correct.
ALL the bible, not select cherry picked, parts.
So, do we all agree that god did indeed say to do all the butchering, raping,
and murdering that I have quoted directly, and accurately from the bible?
Because no way an ignorant, sex obsessed, HUMAN wrote that stuff.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton- "You cannot have it both ways Trip"
I have been through the entire O.T. several times, and the N.T. dozens in the past thirty years. I have no problem with the scripture quotes from the O.T., we have discussed this multiple times. They are not seen in context. Plus you leave out the mercy and patience of God with such as with the story of Jonah and Nineveh.
Of course I know they are in the Bible. The point I was making to Skepti was that his post was nothing new.
Regardless, as I mentioned, Jesus Christ/The New Testament initiated a New Covenant with mankind.
Yes all the Bible is the inspired word of God.
I have no problem with any of it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Trippy says:
Yes all the Bible is the inspired word of God.
I have no problem with any of it.
------------------------------------
Trip says he has NO PROBLEM with god telling humans to KILL, MURDER, RAPE, and TORTURE.
Because every word in the bible comes from god, and god wrote the bible.
So, let us hear some more of the bible that Trip has NO PROBLEM WITH.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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he following passage describes the sickening practice of sex slavery. How can anyone think it is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave?
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Look at all the sea shells all over various peaks etc.
But like I said, nothing has to be proved or disproved to me. If your relationship with someone could possibly disproved, its a pretty shakey relationship.
Hey Pa, not 100% sure ya really exist...just sayin.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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And another part of the bible that god wrote and Trip has NO PROBLEM WITH
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
Trip has NO PROBLEM with SEX SLAVES, because GOD says so.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton- "So let's here some more of the bible that trip has no problem with."
These practices were firmly entrenched into the cultures that the Hebrew's, against the will of God, got themselves associated with, before Egypt! Laws had to be established in order to prevent them further slipping into the various pagan practices which gave no consideration at all to slaves, women, and children.
God did not initiate slavery, man did.
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jstan
climber
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"There has Never been any evidence of a great Flood, or as you would say Noah's flood, NO GREAT FLOOD, never happened"
In February of last year I posted about a meteor crater recently found in what was a lake district of Iraq. Apparently it happened long before christ's time and the story of a pillar of fire may have been part of legends such as that of Gilgamesh. It is also thought a flood may have been caused. It has also been thought possible the flooding of the Black Sea may have led to oral histories later adopted. The bible, as we know it, came into existence hundreds of years after christ (has been changing ever since), and many parts of oral history were borrowed/used.
Edit:
Thanks to Wes for the data regarding the Old Testament being fluid up till 100 years after christ's death. That was the Old Testament.
Then just as now people were pulling together all the "urban legends" that appealed to them so as to improve the story. The New Testament developed along the same lines, King James taking a much later cut at improving the bible's treatment of kings.
The meteor impacting at hypersonic velocity in a populated area must have been deafening and very memorable. A very dramatic event, even 2000 years earlier, would be well remembered among a superstitious populace. The links:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.rense.com/1.imagesC/wmet04.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.rense.com/general16/mete.htm&usg=__jDYCTmjWhcZUdqfEk0l9-sn9p6E=&h=227&w=320&sz=12&hl=en&start=5&itbs=1&tbnid=3u6dv-T10UV34M:&tbnh=84&tbnw=118&prev=/images%3Fq%3DAl%2BAmarah%2Bmeteor%2Bimpact%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton "Trip has NO prob with BLA, BLA, BLA..."
I have no problem with how God delt with man in the Old Testament. Man was the problem, not God. Just look as late as King Herod's time @ 1 A. D. He ordered his Roman soldiers to go into Bethlehem and all the surrounding environs and slay every child from two years old and up.
Right up to this very day look at all the hideous carnage etc in Uganda for instance. The Boy Soldiers etc.
You obviously have no knowledge of the various Cannanite, Hittite, etc. cultures. They were much worse.
God is omniscient and new that they would become entwined in the paractices of other cultures.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes- "Oh, I see, so now selling LITTLE GIRLS..."
Get your head out of the GUTTER Wes!
It said daughter.
In the Bible times/cultures, daughters were sold when they were of age. That was after no one asked for their hand.It was not like today were anyone can choose a wife/husband when of age. It was different back then. Man made the rules, and the Hebrews adopted these rules via intermarriage with other peoples.
Is that what you thought Wes, a little girl? How sick!
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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The bible is the direct word of GOD. It shall NOT be questioned.
And the most DEVOUT Christians will have NO PROBLEM with everything in the bible.
Because humans did NOT write the bible, GOD DID.
And so, we continue with what GOD wrote and COMMANDS us to do:
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton- "God will make parents eat their own children." Jer. 6-9
Norton, why did you not include verses 4-6? That gives the reason God took away His protection from the people(Israelite)in Jerusalem!
They were sacrificing there children to a god Moloch, and at another place they were burning their children in sacrifice to Baal, another pagan god. So Jeremiah prophesied if they did not stop, that God would simply lift His hedge of protection, and the neighboring tribes would attack and defeat Israel. And it happened as Jeremiah prophesied.
Here is Jeremiah 19:4-5...
"Because they have forsaken Me, and have made this an alien place, and have burn sacrifice's in it to other gods...and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent(children)and have built the high places of Baal to burn their son's in the fire as a burnt offering to Baal..."
19:6 So behold days are coming...
The verses you referenced, 19:7-9, came true twice which were spoken by Jeremiah the great prophet, first when King Nebuchadnezzar Babylonian invasion of Jerusalem, and again in 70 A. D. when Titus destroyed Jerusalem. Prophecy fulfilled. And yes, during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem, they resorted to cannablism and eventually ate their own children. It has happened many times throughout history...including the Donner Party.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Adirondack guide Alvah Dunning called the Book of Genesis "a damn lie. It says here the Lord opened the floodgates of heaven and it rained down forty days and forty nights and drowned the earth to the tops of the highest mountains. Why, I've seen it rain here forty days and forty nights and it never raised Raquette Lake more than a foot."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton, your gonna really hate the Tribulation! Just sayin...
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jstan
climber
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Quote:
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
Aug 2, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
Norton, your gonna really hate the Tribulation! Just sayin...
End Quote
Not a thing has changed in the last 2000 years.
The Old Testament remains a vital document.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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jstan,
Norton has been harping about the OT for the last six months, I was just attempting to shift his focus to the future. I am certain he would find plenty in the NT...
Edit: Obsessed comes to mind!
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
--Buddha
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apogee
climber
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This bears repeating:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
--Buddha
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apogee
climber
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I would consider it a great public service, and in the best interests of all of this great country, if someone could re-post that quote every time another whackjob Christianity thread pops up.
At the very least, I'd buy you a beer.
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jstan
climber
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"Norton has been harping about the OT for the last six months, I was just attempting to shift his focus to the future. I am certain he would find plenty in the NT..."
When Norton cites the Old Testament to us he is telling us the future.
777, you feel it is your prerogative to threaten us with torture following our death. Tribulation.
This is exactly in line with the Old Testament. And it will be the future because you will be here threatening people, of that we may be assured.
Your habits and behavior are uncivil and unacceptable. This kind of behavior has been accepted from some christians for thousands of years because they had gained political power and forced their will upon others upon pain of death.
There are christians who actually try to live the teachings. You might consider joining them.
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MH2
climber
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Werner:
And one night is the same, 4,300,000,000 of our earthly years.
Buddha:
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason
That explains Saturday's night shift. This thread has done at least that.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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jstan- "YOU ARE, YOU ARE, WHY DON'T YOU..."
You have no clue as to why I made that suggestion to Norton.
He doesn't believe any of it anyway, I was simply suggesting that should he desire new fields to quote(since he has been quoting the same stuff over and over) why not go to Revelation.
You sure read into things, and like to put words into peoples mouth.
jstan- "you threatening people here..."
The question is in regards to believing in God(OP)...I believe in the God of the Bible, and I simply suggested Norton start quoting Revelations since it does have similar subjects of seeming interest to him.
Well, if YOU find it threatening, I am not the author of the Bible!
jstan- "Your habits are uncivil and unacceptable..."
That's funny, one of the leading atheist advocates in our country believes otherwise:
"How much do you have to hate somebody to not proselytize? How much do you have to hate somebody to believe that everlasting life is possible and not do that? If I believed without a shadow of a doubt that a truck was coming at you and you didn't believe it. And that truck was bearing down on you, there's a certain point were I tackle you. And this is more important then that." Penn Jillette
jstan- "because you will be here threatening people."
I would just as soon let this thread DIE! But you guys will not give up!!
I only respond to questions here, rarely do i post("threaten") a Bible verse etc. unless it is being discussed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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He's trying to save the world when he can't even save himself ....
Why would anyone require 'saving'...? It's as bankrupt a concept as I can think of...
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jstan
climber
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"Well, if YOU find it threatening, I am not the author of the Bible! "
The bible did not say to us, believe or you shall suffer "tribulation" before god.
777 you gave that voice. You are the agent.
If individual A says to individual B, "I intend to kill you" there can even be legal consequences.
You did not say to Norton, "If you believe the bible you will suffer tribulation.' You said he would suffer tribulation. The ascertion was your's. You took responsibility.
What you did was uncivil and was an imposition upon Norton, who has no duty requiring him to submit to your threats.
The transgression you hold against Norton was his publishing excerpts from the document you claim holds the ineluctible truth. All the truth. And nothing that is not true.
Your position is beyond understanding.
Now here is something I accept. When growing up we had an independent contractor as a neighbor. He, his wife, and their son always had a smile, a good word, and help for others. The son, who died last month at eighty when his tractor rolled on him was a pillar of the business community and of his church for sixty years. The only break came when he was serving in the military.
The entire family was devoted to service through their church. Not once in those years was this service or god ever paraded before others. Their church was not a trick donkey to buttress some weakness. Each of them was living the faith, not parading it.
If someone who feels the bible has meaning were to ask me to put my hand on that book and swear I think those people were a blessing
I would do it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Well, I have never wished anything bad for Trip personally.
Trip is very un Christian to wish "tribulation" on ME, or ANYONE.
The bible is very clear on the meaning of Tribulation.
The bible states that in the time just prior to the Glorious Appearing of Jesus Christ, the world will experience a time of unprecedented trial and tribulation. This seven year period is referred to by most Christians as "the tribulation." But the bible refers to it by many names, including "the time of Jacob's trouble," "the seventieth week of Daniel," and "the day of the Lord's vengeance." Regardless of the phrase used to describe it, the tribulation will be a time of great testing for every person on earth as it will be a time of enormous pain and suffering.
When asked by His disciples to describe the signs of His coming and the end of the age, Jesus pointed to this time period as a time of anguish greater than any since the world first began:
Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/religion-articles/the-tribulation-what-the-bible-says
Jesus pointed to this time period as a time of anguish greater than any since the world first began. THIS is what holy than thou Trip wishes on ME.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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jstan, So you are saying that if he were alive today(your friend), that he shouldn't participate in this thread? Answer questions posed by others, state his beliefs when the questions are raised.
I simply suggested Norton, start quoting Revelation and would reply occasionaly as to there meaning in context...but probably not bother at this point.
You are making no sense, and obviously don't agree with Penn Jillette!
Because Jesus stated it clearly what would happen to Norton, you and myself without Him as our advocate. And He did state that we, His "little children" would suffer tribulation in this world.
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Mar'
Trad climber
Fanta Se
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Serious lack of reflection.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton- "Trip is very unChristian to wish Tribulation on, or ME, or ANYONE."
When did I ever WISH Tribulation on anyone, let alone you?
You guys are really grovelling...
I would hope that you would avoid it.
And therefore follow Penn Jillette's suggestion.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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You owe me an apology, Trip, for wishing Tribulation on me.
All I did was EXACTLY quote the bible.
You just don't "like" the parts of the bible I selected to quote.
You don't like those parts because it is SO OBVIOUS that HUMANS wrote those
parts, and NOT your all loving god.
The eight hundred pound elephant in the room is YOUR "literal" interpretation of the
bible.
Your INSISTENCE that EVERY part of the bible comes from god, and NOT humans.
You CANNOT have it both ways, TRip.
You cannot say EVERYTHING in the bible comes from god, and NOT from humans.
And then have NO "defense" for god commanding his followers to rape, and
torture, and murder.
Because we all know what follows: What PARTS then of the bible were the word of god, and what parts were written by humans?
And THAT forces you in to ADMITTING that the bible is NOT the literal word of god.
Which you will NOT do, because that blows to hell the entire basis of
your belief system.
VERY, very shaky ground you walk on, but I STILL DO NOT wish "tribulation" on you.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Telling me personally that I am going to "love the Tribulation"
Yeah, real Christian of you, I am going to just love the end of days, the
anguish, the worst of times.
Why single ME out? You did not say that everyone would LOVE the Tribulation
ASSHOLE.
My feelings are deeply hurt.
I would not say that to anyone, so that makes me a better Christian than you.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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TripL- "Norton, your gonna really hate the Tribulation...jus sayin!"
DAMN STRAIGHT!
Should you or anyone else that reads this, get to that point in the history of the world, "YUR GONNA HATE IT"...
Know I could have stated "YUR GONNA LOVE IT"...but that would be telling a naughty lie.
So, since, like PENN JILLETTE suggest, I am one of the ones that doesn't HATE, and chooses to warn those with their back to the oncoming truck "THERE'S A TRUCK COMING!!"
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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See, there you go Norton, LIE'ing...
I did not say LOVE, I said HATE!
I was "singleing you out Norton because I LOVE all you guys, with the LOVE OF CHRIST!
Just like PENN JILLETTE pointed out!
And all you can do in return is call me an "ASSHOLE".
Jesus said there would be days like this!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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So says weschrist the ardent Satanist!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Only a complete IDIOT would INSIST that god commands his followers to kill the rape victim.
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
Only a complete MORON would insist that god commands his followers to kill, torture, and rape.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
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jstan
climber
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777:
We are not going to change what you choose to believe.
Do us one favor.
Stop telling us how we will suffer if we do not follow you.
I mean, really.
Absurd.
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WBraun
climber
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Healyje -- "Why would anyone require 'saving'...? It's as bankrupt a concept as I can think of..."
Then rid of all your gear, your rope all your safety sh'it.
Boy you guys are really stupid sometimes ......
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Then rid of all your gear, your rope all your safety sh'it.
Boy you guys are really stupid sometimes ......
Not quite Werner. The issue is having others try to "save" us when we don't ask for it, not if we are taking responsibility for our own actions. I should think that's something you would embrace whole-heartedly. Do you go "saving" people off the Face when they aren't asking for help?
Edit: and actually it's more like having some sales rep try to sell you gear that you know you don't need that will end up as extra weight you regret bringing along in the end...
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WBraun
climber
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You still can't save yourself from anything .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Interesting Article by one of themselves.
The coming evangelical collapse
By Michael Spencer
posted March 10, 2009 at 12:00 am EDT
Oneida, Ky. —
We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.
Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the "Protestant" 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.
This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.
Millions of Evangelicals will quit. Thousands of ministries will end. Christian media will be reduced, if not eliminated. Many Christian schools will go into rapid decline. I'm convinced the grace and mission of God will reach to the ends of the earth. But the end of evangelicalism as we know it is close.
Why is this going to happen?
1. Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society.
The evangelical investment in moral, social, and political issues has depleted our resources and exposed our weaknesses. Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can't articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.
2. We Evangelicals have failed to pass on to our young people an orthodox form of faith that can take root and survive the secular onslaught. Ironically, the billions of dollars we've spent on youth ministers, Christian music, publishing, and media has produced a culture of young Christians who know next to nothing about their own faith except how they feel about it. Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures.
3. There are three kinds of evangelical churches today: consumer-driven megachurches, dying churches, and new churches whose future is fragile. Denominations will shrink, even vanish, while fewer and fewer evangelical churches will survive and thrive.
4. Despite some very successful developments in the past 25 years, Christian education has not produced a product that can withstand the rising tide of secularism. Evangelicalism has used its educational system primarily to staff its own needs and talk to itself.
5. The confrontation between cultural secularism and the faith at the core of evangelical efforts to "do good" is rapidly approaching. We will soon see that the good Evangelicals want to do will be viewed as bad by so many, and much of that work will not be done. Look for ministries to take on a less and less distinctively Christian face in order to survive.
6. Even in areas where Evangelicals imagine themselves strong (like the Bible Belt), we will find a great inability to pass on to our children a vital evangelical confidence in the Bible and the importance of the faith.
7. The money will dry up.
What will be left?
•Expect evangelicalism to look more like the pragmatic, therapeutic, church-growth oriented megachurches that have defined success. Emphasis will shift from doctrine to relevance, motivation, and personal success – resulting in churches further compromised and weakened in their ability to pass on the faith.
•Two of the beneficiaries will be the Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions. Evangelicals have been entering these churches in recent decades and that trend will continue, with more efforts aimed at the "conversion" of Evangelicals to the Catholic and Orthodox traditions.
•A small band will work hard to rescue the movement from its demise through theological renewal. This is an attractive, innovative, and tireless community with outstanding media, publishing, and leadership development. Nonetheless, I believe the coming evangelical collapse will not result in a second reformation, though it may result in benefits for many churches and the beginnings of new churches.
•The emerging church will largely vanish from the evangelical landscape, becoming part of the small segment of progressive mainline Protestants that remain true to the liberal vision.
•Aggressively evangelistic fundamentalist churches will begin to disappear.
•Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism. Can this community withstand heresy, relativism, and confusion? To do so, it must make a priority of biblical authority, responsible leadership, and a reemergence of orthodoxy.
•Evangelicalism needs a "rescue mission" from the world Christian community. It is time for missionaries to come to America from Asia and Africa. Will they come? Will they be able to bring to our culture a more vital form of Christianity?
•Expect a fragmented response to the culture war. Some Evangelicals will work to create their own countercultures, rather than try to change the culture at large. Some will continue to see conservatism and Christianity through one lens and will engage the culture war much as before – a status quo the media will be all too happy to perpetuate. A significant number, however, may give up political engagement for a discipleship of deeper impact.
http://www.csmonitor.com/layout/set/print/content/view/print/243294
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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lol--jan, is that tribulation? doomsday? or just a bad investment?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I liked the article Jan posted - but then, I've been reading a tome (door stopper) called "Christianity: The First 3,000 Years".
Evangelical christianity, in various brands, does go through cycles (revivals) in the US. It is (fortunately) far less monolithic than some would have us believe.
As Jan's article more or less says, many of the modern evangelical US churches are beliefs without theology. Not surprising, in that many of their beliefs about the world (creationism...) are without rationality. Nonetheless, to be enduring, a religion has to have a coherent theology, not just beliefs and world view. The evangelicals are far from that.
It will be interesting to see how many become Muslims, a faith with many similar values/beliefs, but much stronger theological roots.
There are few things more interesting and educational than to meet Catholic theologians. The intellectual underpinnings to their beliefs are formidable, which is perhaps one reason why others find them threatening. But talking with Jesuits is also quite fun.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Hey wessie, as far as overdosing on heroin, and becoming a Christian heavy metal band member or whatever your talkin about, ain't ever happened. Well recently(last 5-6 years)there's been Scott Ian from Anthrax, Dave Mustaine from Megadeath, and more recentlly Brian Head Welch from Korn...who was strung out on meth. But they haven't started any Christian bands that I know about. Maybe Head has.
All the Christian bands, and they are numerous, were young kid's attending church yout groups, commited Christian's, otherwise they would have bailed on the church/Christian music and went to a much larger fan base of secular heavy metal.
So, once again your not making much sense!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jan,
The Great Apostasy(falling away)is a prophecy from the New Testament and is well on it's way. Just another sign of the Last Day's:
"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy come first..." 2 Thessalonians 2-3
And elsewhere in the NT and OT.
This is part of the "End Times Prophecy"...exciting times for Christians.
Thanks for the post!
Edit: Yes, a great falling away from evangelical Christianity, and eventually a one world religion. That is where ecunemical religion comes in.
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jstan
climber
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I think Mr. Spencer's pessimism is probably overdone. The thrust by the evangelical churches to gain the power to tell others how they must live takes us back in time a good 400 years. This particular adventure persuaded me personally I could no longer be passive and permissive. The decision was further hardened by another of Spencer's points. The evangelicals seem mostly interested in church cash flow and not in following something in their good book.
The road to total power is lined entirely with corruption.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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And another question, Who are you saving youself from?
---------
Yourself. Your own conditioning, habits, thinking, feelings spirals, biases, junk. You can't fix or change these all by yourself, for you're working on the level of the unmanageability itself.
The problem is that we don't know that we don't know. And most everyone wants to approach the challenge like a math problem. But we're not doing math here. You ask a hard question and live with the process. The trap is doing what you feel like. No spiritual progress can be made in that way.
I have seen time and time again that the way out is through contrary action - and nobody EVER feels good about doing it. Is it any wonder there aren't more realized folks out there...
I for one hate taking contrary action.
JL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Thank you, Gobee.
I will be sure to pass it on to everyone I know.
Very well written, in depth, fresh and original!
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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so go-B
why is Your imaginary friend the Right One ?
and everyone else's the Wrong One ? you do realize there's been a shitload of different religions with a sh#t ton of followers over the history of the species, right ?
dude. I've avoided this thread like the f*#king plague since blowing up last time
but i have never even met you and i think you are a f*#king idiot
who is preaching because he needs to keep talking
or he will have to think for himself
honestly dude
why would your god give you a brain for you not to use it ?
some sort of psycho test ?
religion is detrimental to the social, intellectual, and SPIRITUAL evolution of the human animal. sorry kids - the universe is much much more than any religion seems to encompass, why y'all need the blinders to feel good or safe is understandable but just plain dangerous in my opinion...
if i'm wrong i will gladly burn. but i'm not ;-)
edit : and yes - I sound this pissed because religion and really religious loudmouths f*#king OFFEND me. You get freedom to preach what you want, I get freedom to tell you just how full of sh#t I think you are.
Kisses !!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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How about we make a list of all the good and bad religion has done to and
for mankind in the past two thousand years.
We could start with the torturing, raping, murdering Crusades in the name of god.
And then we could compare that to the money raised at after Sunday service bake sales for that pesky poor family sitting in the back.
And then we could compare that to the billions sitting in the Vatican's bank vaults
that is not being used to mitigate human misery and suffering.
Naw, sounds too complicated.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Patronized some nice artwork and architecture, anyway.
... Oh, no, beat to the punch.
Glaciers made Yosemite, you idiot.
... But there is no mention of glaciers in the Big Book, oddly enough.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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what's funny go-B is that yes - your 'god' did make everything...i just don't think you really understand what that all entails is a big part of it, and why i'm so offended...
i think i mean a little more when i use the word god than you do. God is not this sentient being but more a sentient collective sum of many different things...it's tough to explain...
believing god has a plan lets us look the other way, or commit serious atrocities gladly and in service of his/her/its name...god doesn't *plan*, god just *is*...
in any case, i will try not to yell at you more than once a day ;-)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Nice self portrait Norton?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wesphissed- "Pantera, a band you claim is a Christian band...or at least worthy of your soul's attention."
Your hallucinating again wessie, or perhaps your spooky nightmare's are returning. Because I have never claimed Pantera to be a Christian band, and never really gave them much attention, let alone my soul. They were excellent musicians when Dimebag Darryl was lead.
And I am familiar with Christ Inversion and their Satanic lyrics and devotion to the so called prince of darkness. Never really listened to their music, nor followed Phil Anselmo after Dimebag caught one in the noggin from behind(other than he was hooked up with CI for a time).
Apogee said that he liked "As I lay Dying" a Christian band, but thought they sounded like Metallica and Pantera, and therefore nothing new or original.
I said...Metallica and Pantera, no shit(no kidding)all bands learn to play music as kids and learn riffs, etc., how to play, from the music they grew up listening to.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion, but I am not surprised!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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You say you need to be saved from yourself, but I don't see where all this saving goes, will I be different after I'm saved, NO
I say its just more spiritual mumbo jumbo
--
Than forget the spiritual and work on the psychological - that's a start. Wherever you are stuck, or rigid, or where your life is not working as well as you think it could. Start there. No mumbo jumbo required. But a lot of hard work is required. That's the hitch.
People want something for nothing, which is a fundamentally dishonest approach to the process, for obvious reasons.
JL
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Tarz
Mountain climber
Oakdale
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I'm with George Carlin.... I worship the sun. You CAN see it, its warm, doesn't punish you for screwing up on these ten rules, and doesn't ask for money. My kind of God.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"doesn't punish you for screwin up..."
Guess ya never ran out of water high on the Captain, let's say May-Sept...
Edit: But then you prob related to Tarz-an the monkey man...cud make the dif!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"what's this supposed to mean?"
I was referring to Tarz...Tarzan...get it Dr.F???
Kinda slow to not make that connection to his handle..Tarz/Tarzan?
It was a compliment, and a bit of fun!
And being related to Johnny Weissmuller could make a difference. The dude won numerous Gold Medals in the Olympics.
Or your just plain anal, with no sense of humor.
...and mind your own business, dude!
Your so bitter and full of hate...your pathetic!
Dr.F- "That if you believe in evolution your related to a monkey?
And if your a Christian your not?"
Your the "so lame" one for coming up with that convoluted thinking!
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Tarz
Mountain climber
Oakdale
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I'm way too shallow and "unlearn-ed" to follow anything but the Carlin Doctrine. Tarz relates to Tarzan, as I have an acquired skill of doing a particularly good Tarzan yell. And as Tarzan would say "it ain't how big the tree is...its how ya swing it"!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Now George had a sense of humor, take note and watch sum a his early stuff Dr. F!! He was one of my fav along with Rich Pryor. Saw them both debut on the Ed Sullie Shew bitd(1965)!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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george carlin:
"i'm an old f*#k. not an old fart. there's a difference between an old f*#k and an old fart. an old f*#k is like an old fellow."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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That's what i liked about GC, stuck up for uz old Fn'-fartz!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I agree Locker, somebody make it go away!
Az in Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaappppp!
Edit: Ya I know, I'll try and pretend it has allready happened!
We need a good Tarzan yell to help it along!
1...2...3
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH>>>
AAAAAAAAHHH AAAH AAAH AAAH AAAAAAAAAAAH...
AAAH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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We CUD all agree to stop posting on this thread. That WUD do it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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No problem Dr.F, apology excepted!
Guess that means yur not lame or convoluted or...forgot what else i might have called ya in the heat of the moment(the devil made me do it anyway).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Dr.F,
I find it interesting(60 min), my two favorite channels are the History ch. and the Disc. channel along with AMC/TCM for movies(and FX channel)!
Like I said before, it's about a relationship. You may call it imaginary etc. But He is very real to me. I don't have all the answers for the Universe. And i don't focus on that so much. There is an answer, not saying that some of your conclusions are totally wrong.
Like I said, He has more than proved Himself to me, long ago, and continues to day by day.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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No I don't say it's wrong, on the contrary. I would be doing the same thing if I didn't have a relationship with JC. And furthermore, I think the more/longer they investigate(seek scientific answers/proof)the more their going to learn about the Creator. I would actually like to see it increase tenfold for instance. Maybe even one area, let's say the study of some aspect of evolution. To speed up the search for truth on that level. Just my opinion.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Founding Fathers Quotes
Ben Franklin - "Lighthouses are more useful than churches."
John Adams - "This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it!"
Thomas Jefferson - "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
makes sense to me...
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WBraun
climber
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Sure it make senses to you since you're only a gross materialist monkey.
When one comes up to the platform of human being, beyond the monkey Darwinism, only then can one begin to understand what God is.
Monkeys just swing around in the forest of materialism .....
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Hope you found your answer.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
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I'll be your monkey, Huckleberry.
Or some such.
;-)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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now listen up, fellas. i tried to make this thread go away. i posted a let's-kill-the-god-thread thread about 3 weeks ago and it actually ended god thread posting for about 24 hours. i think the heavies got discombobulated. sorta like a jeddi mind trick. but it didn't last. i don't know who broke rank, but they all trickled back here.
maybe i made the mistake of naming the god thread heavies, and i won't do that now. i won't even start a separate thread. but you have to consider one thing. these people are co-dependents. the hardcore christians and the hardcore atheists. it's the little shop of metaphysicial horrors, sadists and masochists banging each other's heads til they're bloody and enjoying every minute of it. it helps with self-image. be a hero.
now, you will say, why am i here? good question. i can't pretend to be above anyone else. i have interest in the crossroads of metaphysics and science and i guess i keep hoping the discussion might get a little better, but it doesn't seem to happen. so, until it does, let's do our best to be disruptive and sadistic to the god thread itself. might as well enjoy that, no?
by the way, you'll notice a big gap in when this thread was initiated a couple years ago by the late and great jeff batten to when it was revived earlier this year. what happened?
well, if you missed it, pate owned up to his role in this and apologized profusely. nothing better to do one day than go digging in subterrenia and he revives the thread and reopens pandora's box. he was quite contrite and has even offered to buy me a six-pack. i'll take the beer, but i have no power to forgive sins.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Pate referring us all to a Christian thread?!
Now I know we've been trolled!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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No one seriously believes that because of this thread either theists or
atheists will convert to the other side.
After some 20K on the Republicans are Wrong ALL the Time thread, the same
people on each side of the isle are still going to vote the same way.
So why do I participate on this thread?
Because I like to practice my typing skills.
Because a lot of posts and particular people are just plain fun to read.
Because it is challenging to learn from smart people.
Because it it maddening, and therefore entertaining, to experience the psychology
of mindsets so different from your own.
Because the adrenaline from disagreements makes me forget how much my back hurts all the time.
Because I have led a decadent and sinful life and Gobee and Trip are my penance.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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norton, dr. f--none of those are good reasons. you guys are both BDSM and you know it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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from wiki:
because I did not know what it meant.
BDSM
is a type of roleplay or lifestyle choice between two or more individuals who use their experiences of pain and power to create sexual tension, pleasure, and release. The compound acronym, BDSM, is derived from the terms bondage and discipline (B&D, B/D, or BD), dominance and submission (D&s, D/s, or Ds), sadism and masochism (S&M, S/M, or SM).[1]
BDSM includes a wide spectrum of activities, forms of interpersonal relationships, and distinct subcultures. Many of these experiences are still considered to fall out of conventional sexual activities and human relationships.
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F -- "the power of their own mind, and how easy it is to believe things that are completely wrong"
This applies exactly to you too, along with all the other ranters against the existence of God in this thread .....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Well, we'll all know one day won't we?
Not going to be fun then to say, "We told you so."
I won't get any joy from that. Probably bring lots of tears to our eyes, those who believe.
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WBraun
climber
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The gross materialist scientist has all the baggage.
He thinks he's the body.
That is first and most fatal mistake.
Thus you carry all your excess baggage's in your heads and continuously tax your brains swimming and drowning in the sea of nescience along with your deluded stupor of thinking in your puffed up minds that you and only you thru your defective scientific methods are superior ......
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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I will play....Dr. F....
The Bible as the Unique word of God
1)The Bible claims to be (2 Timothy 3:16, 1 Timothy 5:18; 2nd Peter 3:15, 16; 2nd Peter 1:21; 1st Thessalonians 5:27ef. Deuterronmony 31:11; 29; 1-2.
2. The Bible is a reliable collections of books, historically accurate, meticulously preserved and archaeologically verified.
3. In this reliable book, we have reference to Jesus Christ, to claims that he made and to claims others made about him.
4. This reliable book bears witness to Jesus as God the Son and the only way to the Father.
It is the historicity of the Bible that has everything else beat..yes even Krishna...there for for example attempts to excavate a huge battle that occurred to verify what has been written...to this date only the field that the battle is said to have occurred is there...nothing else.
Historicity is the key...the Bible is much more accurately depicted then lets say Sophocles. Scholars believe that that they have collected all or most of his plays in some form....1000 years after they were written. There are over 5000 different versions of the Bible found...all of them are 99.5 % the same....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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So Get This-
Christians unite! Stop using the term "Jehovah" or "God Jehovah."
I resent the term "God Jehovah," it was forced into the religious lexicon by the advent of meta-religious / post-religious / cross-religious studies. Let's go back to the good old term "God" because that's what He (the God of Moses) is. Continue to use the term "god" or a name (e.g., Aphrodite, Marduk, Ishtar) to describe the fictitious made-up ones.
......................
Compare: A Donini post on a different thread, different subject:
Climbers unite! Stop using the term "Trad climbin."
I resent the term "trad climbing," it was forced into the climbing lexicon by the advent of "sport climbing." Lets go back to the good old term "climbing," because that's what it is. Continue to use the term "sport climbing" to describe that activity.
..........
Goes to show: (a) Words matter. The language we use matters. Naturally, we like to protect the language that describes our interests. (b) It is an ideomachy (a battle of ideas) out there, always, relentless, underway, whether overt or under the surface. On guard.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Next time don't hold back, tell him what you really think.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Well said, fellas.
I take it Go-B posted, couldn't stand the heat, and so deleted? Let me guess, bible verses.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Camping is wrong.. End times are not near. He won't be coming back mainly because he was made up to begin with. There are lessons to be had from reading the book, but come on.... What did you get from the Sodom and Gomorrah story where the two strangers were going be gang raped and the holy man of the city offered up his virgin daughters....
Would you do that with your offspring if presented with the same circumstances?
You know you wouldn't. What would the TV News present to the rest of the world to consume?
Pate Edit: Is this the same site you got that cat in the sky pic from:
http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=Genesis_1
Sound Edit: meticulously preserved, - if by meticulaously preserved you mean destroyed shortly after their fakery.. (I heard the mo dropped the first set of two tablets and broke them.. Lucky him, he was a good friend on the mountain top and got a second set... that have never been seen..)
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jstan
climber
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We all have gone on at length as regards the existence of an all-powerful god. It now appears we have at least some data, seen above.
Two possibilities.
1. No all-powerful god who actually cares about us exists.
2. There is an all-powerful god, but it does not particularly like us. So much so it goes so far as to bring about ruinous floods.
These villagers hope to obtain a package of food. The packages while not containing much rice, do thank god, include a can of Pepsi Cola.
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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the native americans stated...you guys(cristians at that time)..go to your chuches and talk about god,we go to our lodges and speak to god..that was when they made mushrooms and peyote illegal...why would anyone let someone else tell them what to think...your supposed to figure it out youself...dumbass
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GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Tony bird,
I love your summary here:
now, you will say, why am i here? good question. i can't pretend to be above anyone else. i have interest in the crossroads of metaphysics and science and i guess i keep hoping the discussion might get a little better, but it doesn't seem to happen. so, until it does, let's do our best to be disruptive and sadistic to the god thread itself. might as well enjoy that, no? Quote Here
Too freaking true. Hope springs eternal but reality is a bitch when you ignore her! I'm cutting my losses and pulling up my stakes -- no more gold here.
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jstan
climber
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3300 posts and you are ready to give up? Here's the final paragraph:
"A well-informed hunch says American Christians aren't ready for the kind of reformation that will realign their actions with biblical mandates. And in the meantime, the exodus from the church will continue."
The whole piece for those who like to read.
latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-lobdell-religion-20100808,0,3621871.story
latimes.com
The Anne Rice defection: It's the tip of the religious iceberg
American Christianity is not well, and there's evidence to indicate that its condition is more critical than most realize — or at least want to admit.
By William Lobdell
August 8, 2010
Novelist Anne Rice's surprise post last week on Facebook — she announced she had quit Christianity "in the name of Christ" because she'd seen too much hypocrisy — brought cheers and smug smiles from critics of institutional faith, and criticism and soul-searching among believers.
But there's something more at play here than one of America's most famous Catholics — Rice re-embraced the faith of her youth in 1998 and published a memoir just two years ago, "Called Out of Darkness: A Spiritual Confession" — walking away from the church.
Rice is merely one of millions of Americans who have opted out of organized religion in recent years, making the unaffiliated category of faith the fastest-growing "religion" in America, according to a 2008 study by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.
The Pew report found that 1 in 6 American adults were not affiliated with any particular faith. That number jumped to 25% for people ages 18 to 29. Moreover, most mainline Protestant denominations have for years experienced a net loss in members, and about 25% of cradle Catholics have left their childhood faith, the study showed.
And in a 2008 study by Trinity College researchers, 27% of Americans said they do not expect a religious funeral.
American Christianity is not well, and there's evidence to indicate that its condition is more critical than most realize — or at least want to admit.
Pollsters — most notably evangelical George Barna — have reported repeatedly that they can find little measurable difference between the moral behavior of churchgoers and the rest of American society. Barna has found that born-again Christians are more likely to divorce (an act strongly condemned by Jesus) than atheists and agnostics, and are more likely to be racist than other Americans.
And while evangelical adolescents overwhelmingly say they believe in abstaining from premarital sex, they are more likely to be sexually active — and at an earlier age — than peers who are mainline Protestants, Mormons or Jews, according to University of Texas researcher Mark Regnerus.
On the bright side, Barna's surveys show evangelicals (defined by Barna as a subset of born-again Christians, which he sees as a broader group with more flexible beliefs) do pledge far more money to charity, though 76% of them fail to give 10% of their income to the church as prescribed by their faith. Various studies show American Christians as a whole give away a miserly 3% or so of their income to the church or charity.
"Every day, the church is becoming more like the world it allegedly seeks to change," Barna has said.
Barna isn't the only worried evangelical. Christian activist Ronald J. Sider writes in his book, "The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience": "By their daily activity, most 'Christians' regularly commit treason. With their mouths they claim that Jesus is their Lord, but with their actions they demonstrate their allegiance to money, sex, and personal self-fulfillment."
How to explain the Grand Canyon-sized gap between principles outlined in the Gospels and the behavior of believers? Christians typically, and rather lamely, respond that shortcomings of the followers of Jesus are simply evidence of man's inherent sinfulness.
But if one adheres to the principle of Occam's razor — that the simplest explanation is the most likely — there is another, more unsettling conclusion: that many people who call themselves Christian don't really believe, deep down, in the tenets of their faith. In other words, their actions reveal their true beliefs.
That might explain why Roman Catholic bishops leave predator priests in ministry to prey on more unsuspecting children. Or why churches on Sunday mornings are said to be the most segregated places in America. It also would explain why most Catholic women use birth control even though the practice is considered a mortal sin.
Culturally, America is still a Christian nation. The majority of us still attend church at least occasionally, celebrate Christmas and Easter, and pepper our conversations with "God bless you" and "I'll be praying for you."
But judging by the behavior of most Christians, they've become secularists. And the sea of hypocrisy between Christian beliefs and actions is driving Americans away from the institutional church in record numbers.
Some, such as Anne Rice, are continuing their spiritual journey on their own, unable to reconcile the Gospel message with religious institutions covered with man's dirty fingerprints. Others have stopped believing in God. Those with awareness who remain Christians are scrambling to find ways, like St. Francis of Assisi, to rebuild God's church.
But remember, St. Francis offered a radical example during a time when the institutional church had grown corrupt and flabby. He was a wealthy young man who took a vow of poverty and devoted himself to the poor. His motto: "Preach the Gospel at all times — and when necessary use words."
A well-informed hunch says American Christians aren't ready for the kind of reformation that will realign their actions with biblical mandates. And in the meantime, the exodus from the church will continue.
William Lobdell, a former Times staff writer, is the author of "Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America — and Found Unexpected Peace."
Copyright © 2010, Los Angeles Times
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Romans 2:4, Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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after all the millions of prayers to God to save the sick, he didn't once tell us it was germs causing the illness, science finally figured it out, not a peep out of god, but maybe the opposite, leaches, blood letting, witch burning, did God say those things??
Perhaps this illustrates what I have been saying about the pitfalls of us humans demanding that "God" conform to our criteria, in this case, that he should be human-like, speak English, and tell us what ails us. Not only is God positioned this way by many, but others, who are basically just trolling on this subject, insist that God either be this talking puppet Dood or if he is not, then God is a bust. It all seems rather puerile when considered in these "Talking Dood" terms, wouldn't you say?
JL
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Yep, but just keeping the concept around as an ineffable null set, only in order to play word games with it, why bother? Everyone needs a hobby, I suppose.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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...but Dr. F, do you think you could ever accept "God" as a metaphor or personification of fate or destiny?
-esp at a later more mature time in a culture that was less fixated on Jehovah (God of Abraham)?
-As in... "Thank God I wasn't born in Afghanistan." or "I want to take a moment and thank God he held back the Grim Reaper through all the craziness of the lightning storm. Because I really thought we were goners for sure with all the static and buzz in our hair."
Or is all talk of "God" just a deal breaker for you.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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REPOSTED
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Love it Norton. Reinhold Niebuhr (often credited for the serenity prayer) has nothing on your cat.
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WBraun
climber
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Every day these poor slobs here stare God straight into his face and still declare to him "You don't exist!".
This proves you're insane ......
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Ok Werner. Whatever you say...
Here's someone you and goober may feel a kinship with ...
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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everyday the wannabe guru's run around flippin stones and hollerin of the mysteries they uncover.
fools. for to really understand life and its periphery, the wise man stands still, in humble and apparently ignorant silence.
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WBraun
climber
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Hahaha
Knocked that one right over their heads into the center field bleachers.
Hit the sweet spot on the bat.
Ball games over, back to the dug-out for you losers .....
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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werner as long as you're content in your fantasy, all is well.
otherwise, keep searchin, and let others along their own search without insults.
otherwise you galiantly wear the folly that is yours.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 10, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 10, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Or maybe this is god.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 11, 2010 - 12:48pm PT
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Dr. F.-
The spiritual book I am reading at the moment is titled, Without Buddha I could not be a Christian. That should answer your questions in regard to my own interests.
As for other people's religion, that is not my business. They can believe anything they want. Whether it's true or not is not my concern. I am only responsible for my own theology and I feel no need to proselytize.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 11, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
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I do not think in terms of 100% of anything.
I'm an anthropologist. I believe in cultural relativity.
I've lived in Asia for 30 years now.
I like the concept of the unity of opposites.
I believe in both/ and not either/or.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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He was god to me in the sixties.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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And some good Christian parents teach their children all about god:
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 11, 2010 - 01:23pm PT
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It would be interesting to ask those kids to define what a fag was.
It might provide an Art Linkletter moment.
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Pate
Trad climber
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Aug 11, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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It would be interesting to know how far these kids make it in life.
My guess is not very.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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Jan said:
"As for other people's religion, that is not my business. They can believe anything they want. Whether it's true or not is not my concern. I am only responsible for my own theology and I feel no need to proselytize."
Well stated, makes good sense to me.
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 11, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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At least I can answer any question lobed at me, my belief system has a solid foundation, so that most questions put to it can be answered, or I could say I don't know
You have a solid foundation?, does it have a classification?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 11, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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Dr. F-
Are you bored today or what?
As for not fighting over religion, I've got 10 generations of Quakers standing behind me on my mother's side of the family. Peaceful coexistence, searching for one's inner light and recognizing it in others is what I was taught. Those same ancestors volunteered to nurse and bury without discrimination, Brits, Hessians, and Americans in 1776 and both Union and Confederates during the Civil War.
On my father's side I have four lines of French Huguenots who were Catharis before that - believed in non violence, reincarnation and vegetarianism until most were wiped out as heretics in 1209.
I definitely believe in freedom of religion!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 11, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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No.
No.
Like you, Dr. F, I believe in taking a stance in Believersville. For identification purposes. For solidarity, too. Actually, for lots of reasons.
Also, there are a bunch of principles I believe in. One of these: When you stand for everything, you stand for nothing.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
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I have a very good doctor friend, in fact he does the cortisone injections in my spine.
He was born, raised, and remains a real live modern day Quaker.
Clearly, he is very devout Christian.
I tell him that if I was a Christian, I would want to be a Quaker.
Quakers are incredibly tolerant people, they don't judge anyone, totally accept homosexuality for example, and believe in acting out in their lives the good teachings of Christians caring for others.
I admire him and his Quakerness, from what little I have learned of it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 11, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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So Norton, as an outsider, how do you think they square their tolerant lifestyle with the warrior god Jehovah and Numbers 15 (Stone the Sabbath Breaker) and the general Laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus (Stone them all, etc....), so many of which you posted? It is oxymoronic, isn't it, esp in light of what Jesus said about the Old Law being applicable still.
How did they handle adultery in the 19th century? Do you know? Were the Puritans and Quakers closely related in their American origins, can't remember, I'm getting old, I'll have to review.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
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Fructose, no clue on how they handled all those good questions.
I only know that one Quaker, and he has told me that he was raised to not take the bible literally, that clearly some ignorant humans added their own BS many years after Jesus died.
He ignores, does not to get into the contradictions in the bible, just believes the good stuff.
I find this a refreshing outlook, wish more Christians would see things the way he does.
And none of this shakes my own lifelong devout atheism.
We each tolerate and accept each other just fine. I like that!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 11, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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So if we could just set the Quakers loose on Al Qaeda, the Taliban and the Iranian ayatollahs, we might get some traction?
.....
Now that inspired a thought: What this Forum needs is a staunch fundamentalist Muslim climber to weigh in, to argue, and to take a beating.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Dr F, you do not know him, never met my friend.
You should not assume he would do, or not do anything, if he was on the forum.
Not all Christians are the same, he certainly is not.
I like him, and the clear morality that HE stands for.
And I will smash anyone who says otherwise with my cane.
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 11, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
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I find it completely contradictory to not take the bible literally. As Dr. F has said, its either 100%correct or 100%wrong.
As anything, after debate, will be black or white.
edit*
A person that says they live by these semi-literal rules, instantly proves the bible is a lie, and follows it ONLY for moral codes.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
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How do you do that?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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Pate, got it, way cool, thanks.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 11, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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But you have to admit, Jan's a babe. I would've loved to had climbed Mt. Blanc with her. ;)
It is clear HCFS that you are a condescending misogynist. We know her thoughts don't pass your muster but since YOU deem her a babe, you'll give the little woman a pass. Pathetic. Please go crawl back into your paternal bog.
At least it informs me why you and Pate are so tight or is it Corn = Pate?
SF
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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F, then I read it wrongly.
My apologies.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 11, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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You're so predictable Corn.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 11, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
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You can't say nice things about a women now?
Sure you can. Just don't be condescending when you do so.
SF
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 11, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
|
F,
I reached my limit on the Repug thread.
I beat the crap out of them for 20,000 posts.
They are THE dumbest fukers in America.
They are NOT capable of learning, of starting first with credible facts and
only then forming an opinion.
Like unschooled children, they start out and stay forever, ignorant.
You will not make "progress" with them, you post only to amuse your own self.
I commend you for starting and continuing the thread, F.
But I just ran out of gas, I cannot deal with truly stupid people very long.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 11, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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DR F= Please refrain from labeling. thanks.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 12, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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The fundamentalists are gone from this thread.
Trip and Gobee do not post here any more.
They either had enough or have other interests.
No one to disagree with.
Time to let it die now.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Aug 12, 2010 - 12:38am PT
|
Dr. F., "my belief system has a solid foundation"
1 Corinthians 3:11, For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 12, 2010 - 12:44am PT
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The Bible was written by God, via a bunch of people, and it is not %100 correct.
Your posts are written by God, via you, and they are not 100% correct.
Ultimately everything manifests out of God, who cares nothing for correctness. This whole creation is God's play, dark and light, thick and thin, sport and trad.
Peace
karl
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Aug 12, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Maybe it's all a dream.
We are ALL just figments in it.
We just think we're real.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 12, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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Maybe it's all a cosmorrhea like science says.
And we're all evolved beings, evolved to process information,
evolved to perceive, in order to survive and propagate.
Maybe it's all as simple as that.
And maybe it is up to us to make sense of it,
to give our own lives meaning and purpose, to set sail-
in the directions we want.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Aug 12, 2010 - 02:24am PT
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What a tangled web we weave!
So many points of view...
Bottom line: AND IT'S ALL TRUE!
Have fun processing that fact!
Everyone seems to be able to see how they are themselves right; that's not such a great intellectual challenge.
Now process for yourself how it is that each of the other guys is also right!
(And thereby save your insults for the bathroom mirror.)
(as 'GOD' looks over your shoulder and giggles)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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I'm excited. Hypercrates, controller of the universe, saw fit to give us great weather today. So I'm off to climb!
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 12, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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First of all Pate you are a extreme example of a pure nut case.
I'm not a Christian and have nothing to do with your stupid mental projections that you put onto people on this forum.
You need a life loser since you are a dead walking corpse with no soul.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 12, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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It all seems rather puerile when considered in these "Talking Dood" terms, wouldn't you say?
It isn't a "Talking Dood" it's a "Talking Mirror"...
"I know he's in there somewhere..."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Pate, Hypercrates is female, a female personification. She's female. Like Mother Nature. But, hey, it's cool, the confusion's understandable. She's just not well known yet, certainly not as popular as Jehovah. But give it time.
When a thousand stories have been written about her, she'll be extremely inspiring for those yet to be born.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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No...
No...
No...
So what does that tell you? I still believe in God.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
|
It tells us you are a "modern renascent" believer, not a traditional believer. Congratulations.
Hey Weschrist, that's interesting. The Sun is a hypercratic power. By definition. So the Sun could be seen as a manifestation of Hypercrates. So yeah, she's hot!
Dr. F., she's just (1) a bridge concept, (2) a metaphor or symbol. Like Mother Nature or the Grim Reaper or Father Time. Not to be taken too seriously or even not at all if you don't like metaphors or personifications.
But it does make things more fun once in awhile. Remember the song lyric: "God gave us rock n roll" When I hear that at a party, instead of Jehovah I imagine Mother Nature or Hypercrates. That's all. Then I have substance, too, instead of "nothing" when you're put on the spot by some politician, say, or evangelist on tv.
Yeah. Hypercrates is certainly mean at times. Mean! She brings disease. One of her "manifestations" is natural selection. That's pretty harsh. She brought Katrina to the Gulf. Don't get caught underfoot when she's in a bad mood (bad weather, etc.).
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
|
Dr. F, the thing of beauty about Hypercrates or Mother Nature is that they won't get mad at you if you don't believe in them. There's none of this jealousy crap.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 12, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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Your welcome. I thought you were one of those.."there is no god" folks"? How can I be a reasonable person if I believe in something that you think doesn't exist?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Well Dr F. I hope that some day you have the experience that opens your mind and heart to God. I understand that up to this point, you haven't had that experience and I fully understand that until you do, there is no argument or explanation that could cause you to believe in God. The lighting of your heart flame is a personal experience that few can give. I pray that some day you will have this experience.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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Dr. F.-
I think you're the one who has been duped. You take the fundamentalists way too seriously. Their movement has only existed for the past 150 years of 2000 years of Christianity and by their own estimate they were never more than 25% of the American public at their height and are currently by their own admission losing large numbers of their young people.
One of the things they have done that irritates me the most is label themselves Christian and insist that if you don't think just like they do then you don't warrant the title Christian. Thus they claim that Catholics, Mormons and even mainstream Protestants aren't Christian. When you keep insisting that all Christians take the Bible literally, you are only reinforcing them in this misguided labeling.
For an accurate view, see The Battle for God: Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam by Karen Armstrong.In fact, anything she writes is good, including A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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Partly right and partly wrong about what?
Specifics please.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:43am PT
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As for an earlier question asked by someone above, Quakers and Puritans are NOT the same thing. In fact Puritans forbade Quakers from living within the limits of the territory they controlled. Some Quakers had their heads shaved and were paraded through the streets of Boston in tar and feathers and a couple of Quakers were even hanged in Boston.
Quakers have always looked to the inner light within themselves and the moral sense of their own group more than the Bible.They also did not observe sacraments saying that material things can never save the spiritual. The original version of Quakerism and that followed by most of my mother's family, simply sat in a bare church together and meditated for an hour on Sundays. Anyone who felt they had a spiritual message could stand up and declare it to the group. Women as well as men could be ministers from the earliest days.
This plus their pacifism infuriated everyone in England from Episcopalians to Puritans. Later their opposition to slavery got them persecuted by southern Baptists in America. Quakers have always stressed by the way, that actions speak louder than words.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:17am PT
|
With that last post, Jan earned it: the Go-B free pass. Congratulations.
[\sarcasm]
.....
Jan wrote-
"Dr. F, I think you're the one who has been duped. You take the fundamentalists way too seriously. Their movement has only existed for the past 150 years of 2000 years of Christianity..."
Really, I wish there were a way to prove it. Like there is in sports - rockclimbing, skiing, whatever. So the results are real in-your-face like.
Because I'd like to know which one of us over the last 25 years has studied religions, theologies and their psychologies more scholarly. -Because her posts are as chockfull of bias, appeasement and disinformation as I've seen anywhere among those purporting to study the subjects seriously.
So, henceforth, she gets it from me: the Go-B free pass.
.....
Fundamentalist is a euphemism (e.g., a media euphemism) for traditionalist. Wake up. Smell the coffee. (a) We're at war with fundamentalist (traditionalist) Islam right now because so many in those cultures take their scriptures literally. (b) the bulk of Christianity, as Dr. F knows and won't be fooled, down through centuries has too, that is, has taken its scriptures literally. "Jesus is God" when taken literally is fundamentalist / traditionalist. That was the majority in all pre-21st centuries since early times in Europe. Insofar as it is not any longer, it is because of this internet-driven, science-driven info age young people have been immersed in now and are exposed to now.
.....
Watch the new film, Countdown to Zero. If it happens- if militant Islamicists get hold of a rogue nuclear bomb and detonate it in New York or San Francisco, fundamentalist Muslims around the world (yes who believe literally this world is a three layer cake of heaven earth and hell) will not only praise the militants who "engineered" it but they will praise Allah believing it's what Allah wants, wanted, believing it was god gifted, god ordered to smite the infidel. Just as the Quran dictates. (Just as the Holy Bible and Torah dictate, too.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQG4oA66uzI
In this country, we still have millions believing the historical Jesus was God, was buried and resurrected on the 3rd day (not the 5th) and ascended into heaven. That is fundamentalism. That is literalism. That is traditionalism. Millions of grandmas believe it still across the Bible belt. And their grandmas and theirs before them. That is the cold hard truth and shame on those who "cover" for it. Esp those out of religious scholarship - the Huston Smiths, the John Meachams, the Karen Armstrongs.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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Although one may be a very learned scholar of religions and theologies , he may not be able to realize God.
God consciousness is not dependent on academics ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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But you do have to study (indepth and rigorously) to know something (indepth and rigorously) of the world's religious systems and to have the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to cross-studies, descriptions of the many and various beliefs, their structures, etc..
And I can hardly read one of her posts without it setting off my baloney meter on some point or claim.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:49am PT
|
HFCS.. Do you ever get tired of being an ass?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:57am PT
|
John Moosie-
"HFCS.. Do you ever get tired of being an ass?"
It happens to be my field of work for the last 15 years, John Moosie, and I AM a climber. A serious one. -Which sucked me into this disinformation vortex- finally after a couple of months of just lurking. I know, you are one of those who prefer we just stay with (a) your comforting Jesus is God fundamentalism for a few more centuries and (b) the status quo of religious warring around the globe which is costing our species billions and keeping the world needlessly fractured. Is that right? Till the bomb goes off and economies and societies collapse en masse. Well, we disagree then, that is lame strategy, lame problem solving.
You know, this is growing pains for all of us- and YOU are the ass. Ass.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:07am PT
|
LOL, lay down with pigs..
prefer we just stay with (a) your comforting Jesus is God fundamentalism for a few more centuries and (b) the status quo of religious warring around the globe which is costing our species billions and keeping the world needlessly fractured. Is that right? Till the bomb goes off and societies collapse en masse.
Couldn't be further from the truth.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:12am PT
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and I AM a climber.
Is this suppose to impress me? LOL, Are you saying that all climbers are asses??? hahaha.. man, you are one screwed up dude.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:17am PT
|
Maybe re-read. Reading comprehension problems? I'm a climber. -Which is why I'm here at super topo - ass.
"Couldn't be further from the truth."
Oh, yeah, didn't you a few months back admit (confess) to believing the historical Jesus was/is God Jesus? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:19am PT
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You make all these claims about me that aren't true and you say that I am the one with reading comprehension problems? Classic.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:22am PT
|
Here, I'll post it again:
"Couldn't be further from the truth."
Oh, yeah, didn't you a few months back admit (confess) to believing the historical Jesus was/is God Jesus? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Do you accept the "divinity of Jesus" doctrine? Simple question.
.....
11:25p Sorry, Tom, apologies to you. Review the post.
QT Who started with the "name calling?" ANS John Moosie.
When you don't give as good as you get, you get rolled over. That's the strategy I'm applying tonight. Different strategies for different circumstances.
.....
Yeah Moosie, still waiting for an answer, a truthful one.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:23am PT
|
are we supposed to gain some sort of philosophical enlightenment from all this disrespectful name calling?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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HFCS.. First off, I don't lie. Is Jesus God? Yep.. In the sense that he is an aspect of God. So is Buddha and so is Krishna. Were they the fullness of God while on planet earth? Nope.. just like any child of God, they started as a child, (and I am not talking the literal sense). Of course they all started as literal children, but they also started as spiritual children, as does anyone who comes to this planet.
I already answered Dr F's questions. No I don't believe the bible is the inerrant word of God. No I don't believe that God wants us to have wars in his or her name and I also don't believe that God wants us to just role over as a pacifist.
Now answer my question.. truthfully.
Do you enjoy being an ass?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:45am PT
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Hey Tom, I have no idea if you will gain anything from the name calling, but sometimes I get tired of HFCS's high horse sarcasm. Especially when it is pointed at someone nice like Jan.
I know I know. poor excuse. I will say good night now.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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"someone nice like Jan"
Here we go again. Another male defender. Jan can handle herself. Even in this tough subject.
I take it on as a right if not a duty when I am able to expose misinformation or misleading statements where I find them - esp in my areas of interest.
You started the name-calling.
Later...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
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Aug 13, 2010 - 03:03am PT
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HFCS. expose anything you want to, but when you do it in a disrespectful manner, it bothers me. You started with the sarcasm. Do you think sarcasm is treating someone with respect? You complain about name calling, but resort to sarcasm. You ride a pretty high horse. You claim to know what I believe, but you got most of it wrong. That is egotistical and is tiresome.
Edit: You are correct. Jan can defend herself, I was just using her as an example. You talk down to most anyone who disagrees with you. It makes having a conversation on this thread almost impossible.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Aug 13, 2010 - 03:13am PT
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I think climbers, of all people, should be able to understand that we depend upon each other; and should accord each other respect; even especially when our viewpoints, knowledge and opinions are different.
Picture yourself high on a climb with this other person, facing a difficult choice of options with no obvious solution. Do you really want to be disrespectfully rejecting the other person's contributions of thoughts and opinions?!
We are very exposed at a period in our history when even some of the oddest opinions may conceivable be proven correct; even in the face of otherwise broadly accepted viewpoints. In fact that is more likely than not.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 09:52am PT
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Moosie- apparently YOU don't get it.
Jan and I have been going back n forth awhile now. Maybe you shouldn't just jump in on a conversation without knowing more of the context. Your chivalrous but bumbly posts in her defense allude to respect, not being sarcastic, etc. - well, here's Jan recently from another post-
"One then has to ask why people like fructose are intent on creating another alienated and hostile group in our society? Perhaps he secretly sees himself as a new Grand Inquisitor or is he hoping for a holy war or a crusade with him leading the charge?"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1231613&msg=1239243#msg1239243
(1) "hoping for a holy war" (2) "seeing himself as a new Grand Inquisitor" Knowing the history of these events - well, that certainly wasn't called for.
What I posted above about the Go-B freepass and such- what got your panties in a bunch - pretty tame by the Taco standards. Repeat: pretty tame by the Taco standards.
EDIT So don't be such a pinhead goodie two shoes. Remember, too, you started the name-calling. Later...
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 13, 2010 - 11:05am PT
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Deductive reasoning, is still assuming.
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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My statement may be taken however you like.
As for the exact definition for both words, they ALSO may be interpreted however you like.
But as most would see it, they are assuming you are using REASON to come up with the assumption. --example for you
1. I assume elephants are pink.
2. I assume gravity is going to be just as strong, on a planet similar to earth.
Are you saying 1. Is the only type of assumption because it uses NO reason?, the 2nd example is ACTUALLY not assuming anything?
if a number is not 3, it must be 4--
~~~~~
Deductive statements are assumptions.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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lucaskrajnik
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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? too hard of an example for you?-
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 13, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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I want to tell you a story,
about a little man,
If I can...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 13, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 13, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
|
great little drama with the baboon. when our cat was a kitten, she walked into our bedroom and saw her image in the closet sliding doors, which had floor-length mirrors. she immediately arched her back at herself--then walked into the closet behind the mirror to see if that other cat was in there. then she'd come back out, arch her back again, then check inside again. she had us in stitches. it took several days before the game wore off.
i think dr. f quit religion but he hasn't left it behind yet. i felt that way about leaving catholicism for a few years. i'd tell people i felt like the fish that spit the hook--still a sore spot in the jaw, but oh, the freedom. after a few years the sore spot in the jaw went away too.
don't sell baboons short. true story here:
http://www.earthfoot.org/lit_zone/signalmn.htm
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Aug 13, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Dr. F. is right either Jesus is a liar, crazy, or He is all the bible says He is, the Son of God and savior of the world!
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 13, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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Its completely black and white
either, or
Kind of funny you'd say that Dr. F seeing as how the tool (internet programming/database) you use to post it is pretty well "both, and".
BTW, I take exception to the notion of Pate that language is concrete. Language evolves. It is in a state of flux. Meaning of words change over time. They are not 100% (nor is anything) as you claim.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 13, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
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Not an analogy. It is a fact.
SF
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 13, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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Words absolutely positively CANNOT be defined as you see fit. Language is concrete.
Are you willing to apply that to say, the definition of marriage?
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 13, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
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EITHER YOU BELIEVE IT, OR NOT
I feel for you Dr. F. Maybe someday you'll lose the shackles and see.
SF
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 13, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
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I like the easter bunny...
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 13, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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he brought me candy...when I was little...
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 13, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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Dr. F, Is a work of art right or wrong? When you view it do you either love it or hate it?
You seem so mechanistic to me. Do you believe that if you break thinks down small enough you can perform a separation?
SF
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 13, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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some of those malty egg things as well, but yea mostly jellybeans though...
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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That's nice. What was your favorite color? Did you like it 100%?
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:05am PT
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I did'nt like the boiled eggs though....
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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What if they were pink? Any exceptions? I hope not.
SF
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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I enjoyed finding them..but then I'd throw them at my brother...
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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I never knew why the easter bunny had eggs...
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:17am PT
|
I suspect he was messin around with the chickens...
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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The Bible is a work of art. But I think you think it is wrong. I could be mistaken.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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You could have a kid in that time Sir.
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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he'll be back I have faith...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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he'll be back I have faith...
Are you 100% certain?
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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Is he 100% dead?
SF
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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In three days he'll rise..HE died for our sins..on the highway of life...
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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the gnomes...are bitchin...
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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but bunny was my one true god ...of candy...jellybeans mostly...not that there is anything wrong with jelly beans...
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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only 5.95.... salvation can be yours....magic beans...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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Skipt, that's not what it says. What would gobee say about that interpretation?
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:14am PT
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those bunnies were created in the image of the god bunny...(as I cross myself reverently..)
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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my faith is being tested...I must bury my head in the sand ...the bunny promised everlasting candy.. if I believe..(as I cross myself with blind dedication)...
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:30am PT
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the gnome is clearly an infidel..he must be slain...with diabetes...have some jellybeans my gnome friend....
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Sir loin of leisure...
Trad climber
I'm from Idaho..bitch
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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maybe they can help set the time on my dvd...I can't figure it out...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 10:06am PT
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Tung, I regularly read his stuff.
And I am very unimpressed.
Take apart Dawkins? What a joke.
Invite Dawkins to reply directly in print, and its all over, again.
There is NO theistic "defense" against the rigorous scientific method.
If YOU want to believe in the Guy in the Sky, and Santa Clause, then do so.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 14, 2010 - 10:36am PT
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I just got back from doing flowers for a couple of the local Marine Corps chapels. I was doing special flowers for the feast of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary tomorrow and other special flowers for the feast of the Transfiguration for the old calendar Russian Orthodox on Thursday.
At the other end of the large room I was working in, the Muslim congregation was chanting in Arabic and doing their prayers in preparation for the breaking of their Ramadan fast. --- People of different faiths can get along if they want to.
Meanwhile, after reading the NY Times articles and the even more interesting letters which follow, and which cover much the same ground we have on this thread, I've concluded that no one will ever prove God by rational means.
The existence of God is something you either feel or not. You can start out agnostic, but you have to be open to the encounter or it won't happen. A person either enjoys classical music and art or they don't. No one can make them, or prove its value to them, they have to feel it.Same with the spiritual.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 10:38am PT
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Norton,
How about replying to Gutting's stuff -- now, on this thread, in detail -- instead of just dismissing it by saying you are "unimpressed" and throwing off some comment about "the Guy in the Sky."
In other words, provide an argument, like the kind you say theists are incapable of. That's the idea isn't it? That atheists can provide arguments? Show us. And show us at least at the level of Gutting's analysis. Otherwise it is just namecalling, and you are no more evolved than the theists you deride.
Are you up to it? And that goes for Fructose and Pate too. And don't go saying that you have been doing so all along, because so far it has just been fancy namecalling.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 11:58am PT
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Most of us fall into a category of believing in Santa Claus in one sense and not believing in Santa Claus in another. A similar thing exists when it comes to believing in God Jehovah / God Jesus or believing in the Bible stories.
.....
Pate, it appears you were all over the Briar Patch last night. LOL!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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Given that there is always going to be religious people amongst us (i.e., those who are smitten with the God Story and want to live life in its terms), the challenge for us moving forward in the 21st century is...
...how to distinguish (a) the harmless ones (like the Jans and Britney Spears out there) from (b) the harmful ones (those who believe the God Story is true - actual description of how the world really works - who are 100% committed to living up to its story elements each and every one of them, who believe with all their hearts that God hates this and God loves that, and that he expects the righteous to destroy his enemies). Won't be easy.
.....
Highly recommended: the film, Countdown to Zero
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
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do a few flowers, jan, for the dead people in iraq and afghanistan. oh, sorry, forgot. god bless america, screw the rest of the world.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:22pm PT
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Ya know, if I was god, the omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, and I wanted people to believe in me and worship me, I'm sure I'd do something spectacularly obvious to everyone that would leave no doubt as to my existence and beneficence. Say, cure everyone simultaneously from all maladies. Or maybe simultaneously have all the priest pedophiles' (or any pedophiles' for that matter) packages turn into giant bowling ball sized excruciatingly painful tumors. Or instantly turn the deserts into rich tropical paradises. I'd definitely be on board with something like that.
Just seems that the ambiguity of the current situation along with the overwhelming evidence of evolution precludes any real possibility of a sentient god...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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Tung,
I have no problem at all if you or anyone else wants to believe that one individual spirit of some sort "created" the known universe.
BUT, after the great spirit did that, then simple random evolution made life evolve on this particular planet.
Tung, I am not clear what your own position is on this.
Are you a creationist like Gobee and Trip7?
Also like them, do you interpret every word of the bible literally and insist it was all written directly from the god as defined in the Old Testiment?
And so therefore you reject the scientific fossil study of evolution?
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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Fructose,
The labor of separating harmful "Christians" from other Christians is a task for Christians too. I don't disagree with you and T-Bird and others about the problem of Christians using violence in their efforts to prove themselves right (though it should be mentioned that Christians are not the only ones with this problem).
The question is whether it is possible to be a consistent Christian and be non-violent. There is, as you likely know, a whole tradition of Christian non-violence -- Tolstoy, Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement, Martin Luther King. What do you think of these people and movements?
With regard to Pate's last response, I rest my case.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
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Norton- TG exposed himself many pages ago. His God is Jehovah (the God of Moses and Abraham) who gave us orders (Commandments, Laws) to follow. His God isn't some vague abstract God or hybrid God (like Moosie's) about which we know nothing specific.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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TG wrote-
"the problem of Christians using violence in their efforts"
So how can you as (modern reformed) Christians blame them (the traditionalist Christians) when it is written in your own scripture? When what they're doing is actually "living up to" their "God Story" and its commandments and laws.
TG wrote-
"The question is whether it is possible to be a consistent Christian and be non-violent."
-exactly.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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Amongst the religious - who can really blame the traditionalists (even militant Muslims) when all they're doing is (a) taking the so-called "God Story" literally and (b) busting ass to live up to its commandments and laws point for point.
In lieu of battling naturalists, scientists and others who have no love affair with any God Story, modern revisionist Christians should've batttled this issue instead. Indeed, they still have this opportunity to turn their intellectual swords on the traditionalist Christians.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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Norton,
It's been awhile since I have been on this thread. From an exchange you and I had June 24:
Jun 26, 2010 - 09:26am PT
Tung, you missed my point, which was to point out the flawed reasoning of those literal bibleists who insist that the entire bible, every word of it, was written by god.
There are sections of the bible that are very clearly NOT written by a rational and the all loving god.
These sections were clearly written by men.
Does ANYONE dispute this?
Of course not, even Gobee seems to agree that humans wrote the bible.
Which then begs the questions of WHICH sections were written by humans and which sections were written by humans with god directing their pens on parchment?
So, answer that question, kindly please.
Jun 26, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
Norton, your last comment helps clarify. If all you are talking about are biblical literalists who naively interpret the whole of the bible without acknowledging that they are in fact involved in the act of interpreting (the ones I have in mind often highlight teachings on homosexuality in Leviticus and conveniently ignore, for instance, Jesus' teaching on poverty; note the Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, John -- say not one word on homosexuality) then we are in little disagreement. If you want want to move from that to saying that all believers are fraudulent jerk-idiots, then there is not much to talk about.
If you really want to learn about the various ways of interpreting the bible, take a good course in biblical hermeneutics. In my own case, given that I am called to be Christian, I begin with the words and actions that can reasonably historically be attributed to Jesus of Nazareth (because in my belief system God's revelation demonstrates itself most forcefully in Jesus)and work from there. Yes, this often involves rejecting certain parts of the bible as incomplete or even errant readings of who God is.
There is not even agreement among those who start with what they can know about the historical Jesus as to which acts and sayings in the Gospels are most authentic.
Any interpretation of anything will involve a process of selection ("You can't use that hold, its not on the route") and weighting of what is central and what is not ("That's not the crux; up there is the crux"). All I ask in your exchanges, Norton, is that you not take one (in my judgment erring) version of religious belief and leap to the conclusion that all religious believers are willfully deceived oppressive half-minds.
Climb on!
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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High Fructose's argument seems to be: The only authentic Christian is a biblical literalist one. This is what I meant about atheists needing to offer up some rational arguments that can take on Gutting et al. H.F. simply wants to define Tolstoy, Day and King out of existence.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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Select this or that. Select this Commandment but not that one. Select this Law but not that one. Select this day or hour to live up to a biblical prescription but not that one. Why not take it a step further. Select Ashtar or Marduk instead of Jehovah. Or select none at all.
Who needs a hermeneutics (i.e., interpretations) course for this. I didn't need a climbing course. I didn't need a hermeneutics course either. To make sense of these things.
The problem is, the Abrahamic God Story (staring Jehovah) is misleading - it's not an accurate description of how the world works or how life works. It makes no effort at all to deal with reality, the constraints of reality, at all. That's why it is a deal breaker for many of us.
Reality consists of constraints. The constraints of the natural world. Someday we will have belief systems that don't ignore these constraints but teach their adherents life strategies (in narrative form, too) for dealing with them.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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Tung, I have NOT done so.
I NEVER stated that I believed that ALL Christians are fundamentalist.
And, please do not suggest to me that I get some understanding of the bible.
I was raised strict, practicing Christian.
I can quote the bible all day long.
Knowledge of the bible makes no one a better person, or better Christian.
I have NEVER sought to deny anyone what they want to believe.
I am not asking or suggesting that you or anyone else become a non believer.
Among other issues I have is with the literal bible fundamentalists and their anti science, 6000 year old earth contentions.
And if YOU are one of "them", then ok for you. But that is where we differ.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
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TG- the definition of Christian used to be one who believed in the Jesus is God doctrine. (Like my grandmother did, like hers before her, too.) Is the definition changing? Has it changed now? Having hermeneutic skills, have you reinterpretted God Jesus? Is any enlightened human (Buddha to Sai Baba to Dalai Lama) God now? Or at least God-like?
All this hermeneutic restructuring - that we see going on in the world today regarding Christianity - by the Rick Warrens, etc. - you think that's cool? you think that's noble, something to be proud of? Many of us don't. Many think it's lame.
....
TG wrote-
"High Fructose's argument seems to be: The only authentic Christian is a biblical literalist one."
That's not my argument, that's the fundamentalist Christian's argument. But that is part of my point: You revisionist Christians should be battling them instead.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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After reading the most current exchange it almost seems we are striving to disagree.
I think no one has said they have a problem with a person who follows some particular guidance in their efforts to be a good citizen, live a satisfying life, and to support similar efforts by those around them.
Personally, a person's faith was a non-issue with me until certain branches calling themselves christian began doing things I had never associated with christ, began insisting that they be allowed to determine how others must live, and who had no problem with violating the law.
I think one has to object to such behavior if one hopes to be a good citizen.
This why I, from the start, have argued that the argument here should be between the people who in some sense want to be considered christian.
I don't see evidence that these discussions are taking place.
No one is objecting to organized efforts by tax exempt religious organizations to influence public policy.
We should be hearing these objections, daily.
Nada.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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Norton,
My reference was to High Fructose assuming all Christians are necessarily fundamentalists if they are to be authentic. You have never said that. There is a big difference between your posts and those of High Fructose and Pate.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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High Fructose,
Believe me (or not), I spend much more time battling the Christians who get the Gospel wrong than the atheists. The atheists are just much more prominent on this thread.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 14, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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His God isn't some vague abstract God or hybrid God (like Moosie's) about which we know nothing specific.
LOL, dude, you claim to know me, but you don't. I have written many times about what I believe about God and yet you still try to put me in a box of your creation so that you can control me. God isn't some moving target, yet as a Koan, God is not completely knowable to those who only want to define and confine God. We don't define God, God defines God. We only attempt to understand.
Skeptimistic wrote,
Ya know, if I was god, the omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, and I wanted people to believe in me and worship me,
This is a common mistake, to think that God wants people to believe in Him/Her, or even to worship Him/Her. God wants us to know who we are. Jesus said.."Ye are Gods". Create what you want, but realize that you will reap what you sow.
Pate wrote something honest here..
I don't get into arguments with delusional people.
I just like calling them as#@&%es.
I appreciate the honesty.
The thing that bothers me about this thread is the disrespect for peoples beliefs in God, simply because God isn't provable in a manner which that person would accept. Some interpret this thread to be a troll by Juan, and perhaps in some respect it is, as it has drawn out people's beliefs into the open. Some beliefs which are dogmatic and even scary. The thing is I believe that this thread was also a genuine quesiton on his part and instead it has devolved into a debate about religion. Religion isn't God. Religion is man's attempt to understand God, yet it is fraught with mistakes and even evil.
When a person has rules on how God is to behave, then they are saying that they are above God. No one is above God and God will not approach such a person as God allows that person to continue in their belief that they are above God and can contain and control God, as God has given us free will and dominion over this world, with one caveat, that we will reap what we sow.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 02:42pm PT
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Haha, you write as if Western civilization doesn't have a long and bloody history over one singular ages-old theology centered on Jehovah. And you post as if nobody else has any grounds for critiquing it or trying to move past it.
Still seems I described your God accurately, too, even by your most recent post. Isn't your "God" more abstract than the literal "God" of Abraham and Moses of the Bible who ordered a sabbath breaker to death by stoning?
So can we "asses" be friends now? or do you still want to be adversarial.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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Theists have had a long tradition of imposing their Word of God and its Laws on culture. And minorites have had an equally long tradition of having to abide or else. Only in modern times has a light been shown on everything relating to religions and beliefs. And what everyone is experiencing now is growing pains - as a part of graduation, from one age to another - tho it doesn't seem like it day to day.
You guys should catch Agora, with Rachael Weisz, pretty good. There's a lot of that illustrated in this film.
A principal tool of early Abrahamic religionists (Jew to Christian to Muslim) keen on being obedient to God and doing His work was a hefty round stone.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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"When you all finally get the government out of our bedroom will it include having them stop telling us what light bulbs we have to use there?"
I am with you on this Skip. As soon as we let an actual free market set the cost of electrical power at its true value. Ever since Rural Electrification the government has played a role in the power network. As it has in the system of highways.
TG:
Then you are surely a lone voice speaking out in the wilderness. My props.
I can't speak as an atheist because it is not clear to me that the existence of a god has risen to the level of a question. So I call myself a non-believer. A much more general term.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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Now that we have that settled, Jstan brings up the very important issue of
the separation of church and state.
The guys who wrote our Constitution had a bellyful of the Court of King James
and the Church of England, which was VERY authoritative in its explicit rules
for how Christians in England were to live their lives and pay homage.
So back to present day. In my view, there is a serious breech of the separation
when leaders(pastors) of US various denominations openly tell their congregation which political party and candidates to vote for.
This is just in your face offensive. I have sat in Catholic masses and listened to the Bishop rail against the taking of lives through abortion,
and then cleverly so as not obvious suggest that the true Christian will vote for Republicans because they are "pro life", or against the free will of a mother to decide what is best to do with her own body.
When Churches attempt to influence politics then they cross the line.
They SHOULD immediately lose their tax exempt status.
BUT, everyone knows they cross the line all over America on this, and NO ONE
is openly screaming they should lose their tax status.
They "get away" with this because they are like the NRA, too powerful in American
life to mess with, they are sacred cows of the highest order.
It's WRONG. Churches should stick to telling people how to live their lives,
and what to do and not do in their bedrooms,
and NOT tell them which political party to vote for.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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Many - most - churches are 501 (c)(3) organizations, in effect charities. Registered charities in Canada, and I believe in the US also, are prohibited from any partisan political activity (supporting candidates and parties), and very limited in non-partisan advocacy. The system is administered by the Internal Revenue Service, a non-partisan agency, under the law. There's some room for interpretation, but not much. They regularly audit organizations to see that they're in compliance, both on a random basis, and based on complaints received.
Bush et al made a big fuss about auditing and even prosecuting charities that were supposedly sending money raised in the US to terrorist organizations, although it seems to have been a less significant thing than was claimed. (Probably most fundraising/money laundering in the US to support overseas terrorism, whether the IRA, Hamas, Tamil Tigers, al Qaeda, or the Jewish Defence League, is done more carefully.) In any event, it appears open to citizens to complain to the IRS, and advocate increased vigilance in terms of political activities by religious charities. Their work is in effect subsidized by the taxpayer, and they have no excuse for not sticking to their knitting.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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You say that god just wants us to know who we are, without worshiping it. That's fine.
What I have a problem with is the people who wrote the various stories about how god was angry about such-and-so and how it smote them down and told people to go out and kill others to prove their faith. Seems like that god wants people to worship it. In a big way. All religions seem to worship some god. Except Buddism, which is more of a philosophy than a religion.
And so those people who think the authors were ghost writing for god and want us to follow these sometimes historical, often delusion-inspired accounts use these stories as irrefutable proof of god's existence. If they want to live their lives like that, then fine. Do it however you see fit. The problem lies in that this is a country founded on the freedom of religion to be practiced or abstained from however we deem as long as it stays separate from state and national laws. When people go telling me that I can't abort a baby, or marry a different race or the same sex because it's immoral based on this book written & edited over the last few thousand years, or want my kids to say "under god" and recite the 10 commandments because they fear some notion of a vengeful god, then they'd better offer up some concrete irrefutible proof to convince me that they're right.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Way to go, you get him Skep.
.....
Whoa, Moosie wrote-
"This is a common mistake, to think that God wants people to believe in Him..."
This leads me to believe Moosie not only misreads ST posts but misreads the Bible as well.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
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Haha, you write as if Western civilization doesn't have a long and bloody history over one singular ages-old theology centered on Jehovah. And you post as if nobody else has any grounds for critiquing it or trying to move past it.
I don't see how I say anything like that. I said religion is fraught with mistakes and even evil. I recognize that many wars have been fought in a mistaken belief that that is what God wants. God says over and over, vengeance is mine. The law of karma will repay all debts. The koan is that sometimes we do act as the arm of God, but knowing when that is requires a pure heart. Few have that purity.
I just wish that the posts coming from your side of the fence started with:
Right there you have created distance. "my side". I don't have a side of a fence. I disagree with much of what dogmatic christians believe, and have attempted to explain this to them, but they are stuck in their beliefs and don't have any interest in what I have to say. So I let them be, as my way isn't to bludgeon them into acceptance. At one time it was, but now I accept that vengeance really is the lords. I do know that force rarely works and I also understand that sometimes one has to resort to what appears to be force, to break through someone's shell. I did this with my question to HFCS. Does he like being an ass? You understand that you enjoy it, so you are more aware of your nature. I appreciate that. I don't think that HFCS appreciates how he appears, as the know it all. He complains that others on this thread act as know it alls, then acts as one himself. It makes it nearly impossible to have a conversation, as there is no respect. Both sides act as know it alls, and so no progress is made. That saddens me as I know that some are genuine in their search for truth. But the truth isn't found when one thinks they already know it. It is found when one realizes that they don't know, and need help in knowing. Humility is the basis of knowing, but humility is impossible for one stuck in, as Werner would call it, the false ego. Yet humility is another koan, as once one has true humility, then one can know God. Once one knows God, as say someone like Jesus did, then one can speak from authority, and command the earth to be still, and it will. But few have true humility, as evil has infested religion and the ego most often rules the day. That is why Jesus said that the way is narrow, and few there are that find it.
This whole situation makes me laugh, because the ego still gets me sometimes. I was on the right course with HFCS, I just did it with an impure heart, as Pate pointed out to me. I love the irony in that. Thanks Pate for helping me see. And I apologize HFCS, for the anger in my post to you.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
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And I apologize to you Moosie. We're all just trying to figure things out.
So, you ready to climb, I'll belay.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:43pm PT
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Religion IS all about worship.
Ritualistic worship.
And it is very much about control, about telling people exactly how to live their lives.
Lots of rules, lots of do and don'ts.
All predicated on the First Priority, that humans are born WITH Original Sin.
And it ONLY through immersion in the rituals of religion that humans can be
"saved" from that original sin, and thereby get a shot at heaven.
Examples of this highly NEGATIVE view of humans abound throughout Christianity.
Take Baptism for example. When I was being indoctrinated into Catholicism,
new born babies were NOT going to make it to heaven UNLESS they were baptized,
and not just ANY baptism, it had to be a CATHOLIC baptism.
Now, if that new born baby happened to be unfortunate as to die before
being baptized, then he/she could not in effect be forgiven for being
born in original sin, and would spend eternity in PURGATORY.
Now, PURGATORY was a BAD place, not as hot as hell, and no where as "nice"
as heaven.
And you were sent to Purgatory to "do penance" for some SIN you committed.
And how LONG you were CONDEMNED to Purgatory depended on the SEVERITY of
your sin.
Your sentence was decided by some spiritual being, like god or an angel.
So, non baptized Catholic babies were doomed to NEVER be with their parents,
because they were to spend ETERNITY in Purgatory.
Of course, if their parents also screwed up and got sentenced to Purgatory
for a period of time prior to moving on to heaven, then I suppose the
baby could see mom and dad, for a while.
But it was never made clear to me just exactly what sin that unbaptized baby committed to be doomed to Purgatory.
Oh yeah, now I remember, that baby was born with "original sin".
Little sinners, right away, as soon as they pop out.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 14, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
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This leads me to believe Moosie not only mis-reads ST posts but misreads the Bible as well.
No, I don't misread the bible, I just don't accept all of it as being God's word, or the interpretations that some put on it. The only reason to worship God is as Jesus said.."Ye are Gods". So you worship yourself. How do you do that? By being true to your true nature, yet few know their true nature. Anyone stuck in the ego does not know themselves.
If you fully understood that God/you was all that there was, then why would you do evil to yourself? You wouldn't. So few know their true self and thus evil exists. Not because God, who knows himself, creates evil. God allows evil to exist because he has given us dominion over this planet in that it is a school room where we, as children, can experiment with what we think is true. He warns us that we will reap what we sow, and he gives us guidance if we are open to it, but he also leaves us to our experiment. God is the ultimate scientist and creator. This is the ultimate experiment in freedom and growth. Science is a creation of God, it is just overrun with ego, as is religion and all mankind. Ego is not a creation of God, it is a creation of man. It takes true humility to be a true scientist, as it takes true humility to be a true spiritualist. Both can work together to understand all that there is, but only in a spirit of humility.
Edit: have to go now. I have a class coming up. Thanks HFCS, I appreciate that. I don't climb anymore. Too many health problems. Which is part of why I have been so angry. Oh the irony. Never was much of a climber, but living in Yosemite, most of my friends are climbers and I appreciate the sense of adventure of climbers and that the stakes create a sort of furnace that distills what is important.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 14, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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LOL, okay Pate,
You.. climber
Me.. former climber.
Oh dang, another fence.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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Pate:
"I am an atheist. I believe there is no god. You believe there is. "
Got to be careful Pate. There is no evidence gods exist. There is no evidence gods do not exist. So if you go with either conclusion you are ascerting something for which you have no evidence. You become a "believer."
Avoid that entirely by being a non-believer. Draw conclusions only when supported by data.
This is what I meant when I said the existence or non-existence of gods has not risen to the level of even being a question.
If you want to discuss something that is not yet even a question, merely state the data.
There is no evidence for the existence of gods.
When people all over the world start growing back amputated arms and legs with no medical intervention and doing so after interacting with certain people or after perusing certain literature, then we can ask whether gods have risen to the level of being a question. Even then there will probably be equally good explanations in contention.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
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Pate wrote-
"I disagree that there is no evidence against the existence of god. There is plenty of evidence. Millions of years of natural history, and tens of thousands of years of human history.... The existence of Zeus was disproved by time. These modern gods are suffering the same fate."
I held back hoping someone else would pipe in. That's exactly right, Pate.
.....
Also, when one takes into account the human factor in the thinking, that's also plenty of "evidence" the gods of ancient cultures (from ancient Egypt to ancient Greece to ancient Mesopotamia) didn't exist.
Never leave out the human factor. Humans suffer false perceptions. They err. They lie, they exaggerate. They tell stories, including false ones. They bait and they take the bait. They like to use metaphors. They like to personify natural forces. All this is evidence, too, to be taken into the thinking along with science and history.
Speaking of being careful: One has to be careful he doesn't fall into old traps. Of thinking. Of phrasing things. Reframing it helps.
Also, if you're trying to move ahead, win people over to your side of the debate and such, you have to watch your language. Just as any marketing and branding expert would tell you. Stop referencing everything in terms of religious and theistic frames. E.g., by calling yourself a nonbeliever (jstan), even atheist (Pate). -Since these reference the very things (many nonexistent) you're trying to push past. I'm a "believer" in many things. A lot of Christians and Muslims, in comparion, are nonbelievers. In evolution for example. In Buddhism. In the machinery of life, etc.. Reframe it so that they have to wear these negative unbecoming titles (e.g., "nonbeliever") for a change.
.....
It is NOT reasonable to be agnostic or open-minded concerning Aphrodite or Poseidon. Neither Jehovah. Neither Amon-Re. Not in this day and age taking into account (a) the Scientific Story, (b) the human factor and (c) all of history.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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Trying to prove that something doesn't exist is a logic trap. Prove to me that unicorns don't exist. Of course you can't.
The onus of proof is on those who claim that god exists. Offer up one irrefutable shred of evidence that god exists. Just one. Take all the time you want. But don't bother me again until you have it. Hint: Your main obstacle to overcome is statistics.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
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The onus of proof is on those who claim that god exists.
god = consciousness
we are conscious, therefore the onus of proof are on those who deny consciousness.
SF
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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Armed with an education, e.g., science education and general life education, it is quite "reasonable" to conclude, to decide - as informed decision makers of the modern age- that all ancient deities - all ancient Mediterranean / Mesopotamian Gods - all of them - at best were personifications of those great powers our ancient forebears felt were controlling their lives.
We're decision makers. We are a decision-making species. Decision-making is a power. Don't pass on it. Don't fall for the slippery sophisticated theologian's argument (of past times, all gussied up through centuries of use) that modern man (and woman) has to remain open-minded (and not draw any conclusions) about Artemis being the Daughter of Zeus or Ptolemy being the Son of Amon-Re or, in the case of Christians, Jesus being the Son of Jehovah. It's an old trap, don't fall for it. That's the updated thinking of today's age. And it will be the updated thinking of tomorrow's young people.
.....
Amon-Re needs to prove he exists. Quetzalcoatl needs to prove he exists. So does Jehovah. That will be the attitude of tomorrow's young people ("Attitude is everything.") when the new institutions of tomorrow are in place.
Fundamentalist Abrahamic devotees of the 21st century need to adapt, they need to work on their attitude - that should be the message of the Sunday sermons in churches across America - if they don't want to be left behind in the rush of the info age. No age of human history has escaped growing pains nor tragedies from failure to adapt. Our age is no exception.
Jehovah is not exempt from modern age reasoning.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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modern age reasoning
Examples of which are numerous acts of genocide such as during both world wars. Mass killing is always "reasoned".
SF
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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god = consciousness
we are conscious, therefore the onus of proof are on those who deny consciousness
Well apparently there are some that are unconscious here...
I really shouldn't address such a weak attempt, but I'm procrastinating from studying so I'll bite.
Prove to me that god=consciousness. I don't see where that is obvious at all. You may think otherwise, but you offered it up; it's your responsibility to back it up with some sort of supporting data/argument.
From where I stand, consciousness is a result of evolution. Consciousness allowed a survival advantage and was therefore selected for. A complex brain circuit that allows the individual to understand the concept of self and not-self. A step beyond the herd mentality. Probably something very primitive in the paleocortex or even archecortex (parts of the brain).
Now really. Do some deep thinking and research before you offer up these sophmoric retorts please.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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So you believe that only humans are conscious?
edit: You dualists sure have a lot of rules.
SF
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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Dude. You're out of your league or perhaps you're just very tired. Either way, try reading & rereading the post a few times, then look up the biological terms I used and see where they fit in the evolutionary chain. Hint: "something very primitive"
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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You're out of your league
BS and condescending.
So somewhere between very primitive and now consciousness appeared?
How do you define this event?
SF
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
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Skep- Way to take up the charge.
Tell Scarface to just go read a book. I agree, he's out of his league.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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Good question!
What is "consciousness"?
Well, let's start with the normally accepted classic definition.
From Wikipedia Consciousness
Consciousness is variously defined as subjective experience, or awareness, or wakefulness, or the executive control system of the mind.[1] It is an umbrella term that may refer to a variety of mental phenomena.[2] Although humans realize what everyday experiences are, consciousness refuses to be defined, philosophers note (e.g. John Searle in The Oxford Companion to Philosophy):[3]
"Anything that we are aware of at a given moment forms part of our consciousness, making conscious experience at once the most familiar and most mysterious aspect of our lives."
—Schneider and Velmans, 2007[4]
Consciousness in medicine (e.g., anesthesiology) is assessed by observing a patient's alertness and responsiveness, and can be seen as a continuum of states ranging from alert, oriented to time and place, and communicative, through disorientation, then delirium, then loss of any meaningful communication, and ending with loss of movement in response to painful stimulation.[5]
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
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Moosie, you are not only on the other side of the fence, but the other side of reality. I believe.
I am an atheist. I believe there is no god. You believe there is.
You can not come into my field, no matter how nicely you ask. You are on the other side of the fence. I do not respect your beliefs for a minute, but I respect your right to have them.
You- I believe crazy side of fence.
Me- I believe realist.
--
There is no fence. There's just life, and we all have all the parts: crazy, unreal, enlightened, know-it-all, objective, subjective, "realist," romantic, junkie, addict, et al. But consciousness itself is no such "part."
JL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
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Scarface asks if others here believe that only humans have consciousness.
Well, I don't believe that.
For example, I do believe that many species of animals have consciousness.
So, it is not just humans that do.
But I think the point being made was that a spiritual being, a "god" made a
decision at some point in history to impart a "consciousness" in to humans.
And that this consciousness in humans is then necessarily "proof" that god exists.
And also then the supposition is that consciousness could NOT been bestowed
into humans in any other way.
Therefor the conclusion must be, that evolution could NOT have been
responsible for humans having consciousness.
This then, is therefore "proof" of that god does indeed, exist.
Do I have this right, Scarface?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
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re: consciousness
Consciousness, esp the sentience part, is a material function of brain circuitry and metabolism. We just haven't figured it out. But I'm confident if the world's societies don't collapse as a result of fossil fuel depletion, if somehow we're lucky and they progress and science progresses unabated, we'll have it figured out by century's end.
Once upon a time, people couldn't believe it - that a family member's voice could be heard, replicated, in a coil of wire over a magnet. But today this IS a commonplace understanding. -Even for those (e.g., 10 year old kids) who don't know how it is done. Keep the faith.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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And Scarface asks about "modern age reasoning" and points out genocide
as an example of bad stuff that happens when humans practice reasoning.
It should be pointed out that "modern age reasoning" also is responsible
for the car that he drives, the surgeries to stay alive he may need,
and every single good and positive advancement in human life.
NONE of which would have come about WITHOUT modern age reasoning.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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Norton wrote-
"But I think the point being made was that a spiritual being, a "god" made a
decision at some point in history to impart a "consciousness" in to humans."
I remember how disappointed I was to read Jane Goodall saying that. In one of her latest books. Some just cannot accept brain as a basis for mind and move on. -Such is the power of childhood indoctrination and the Abrahamic narrative.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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First, let me show you how to "google" a concept.
1. type http://www.google.com/ into your address bar (that's the thing at the top of the page that has the supertopo address in it right now).
2. when the google page pops up, type in the words "evolution" and "consciousness" and hit return on your keyboard. (you may also be interested in googling paleocortex and archecortex)
3. scroll down the list of articles until you come to this one This will take some time to load because it is 23 pages, but it's full of interesting information that will help you to understand how consciousness evolved. I know you will understand it because you are not "out of your league" when it comes to this subject.
Once you have read it & understood it, please reply to the earlier request to offer more proof that god=consciousness.
If you have any questions about the article, I suggest you ask one of your esteemed colleagues who are also in your league.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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There is no fence. There's just life, and we all have all the parts: crazy, unreal, enlightened, know-it-all, objective, subjective, "realist," romantic, junkie, addict, et al. But consciousness itself is no such "part."
Largo has it exactly right.
This bears repeating. Dualists love fences and division. Categories and sub-categories. They forget that they are part of the action and that they really can't define (consciousness=god). All I know is that it is all just consciousness. The universe is conscious.
Argue all you want. Complain that my methods don't follow your prescription. I really don't care. Your argument and $2 plus will buy you some coffee at Starbucks.
SF
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
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"Largo has it exactly right."
Yes, in regard to climbing anchors. No, in regard to consciousness.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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And you do Corn? Did you read something you agreed with? Please illuminate us. When did consciousness begin?
SF
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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April 1st, 1,367,986 BCE
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
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April 1st, 1,367,986 BCE
Well that is easy Skeptilicious. Now answer the hard part. What is it? What changed on April 1st, 1,367,986 BCE?
SF
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
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Wow. You are really unrelenting in your quest to avoid proving god=consciousness.
Somewhere, millions of years ago, an animal was conceived that possessed a "mutation" that allowed it to differentiate between self and non-self. This new ability to perceive allowed it to mate or defend itself or find food better than others. It mated and had offspring that also had the mutation. After a number of years, it became the dominant life form in its environment. The mutations continued and brought about new species with the new brain structure that could also compete. Eventually humans evolved and further improved on that mutation in that we can reason and post on supertopo.
There are some that still lack some of the reasoning skills, but eventually they will evolve or fade away from lack of ability to compete.
Of course, this doesn't preclude them from sharing their misperceptions on the 'taco...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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Well, a venti carmalata at Starbucks will you a lot more than $2.
Ok, so AGAIN, how EXACTLY does my dog having "consciousness' PROVE that the
Big Guy in the Sky "exists"?
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
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So let me see if I got this right mastur. Consciousness = mutation? Is that like a spark or sumpthin?
Where did this "mutation" come from? Like the Big Bang?
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
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Norton,
I don't believe in the "Big Guy In The Sky". I am certainly not going to try to explain that concept.
Can someone perceive god as such? Sure, why not.
SF
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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Sorry. Are you really that uneducated? Try using the google instructions I posted above.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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Sorry. Are you really that uneducated? Try using the google instructions I posted above.
If I wanted to google I wouldn't be on ST taking the pulse of the resident dualists.
Pate, Yaawn, Get over it. I don't need to answer to your sense of how things should be. Anyhow, your morality is in question after what you did to that poor bunny.
SF
edit: I don't follow instructions very well. Skeptilicious, I don't expect you to answer my question either, because I know you can't.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Aug 14, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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Let everyone's beliefs be their own, and let it be.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Here you go Pretty sure you won't understand it, but that's probably the simplest I can make without spending hours on 6th grade biology (Hey, maybe Klimmer can explain it to you in terms a 6th grader can understand).
By the way, if you google "mutation" and "evolution" this is the first thing that pops up of over 10.6 million hits. I'm guessing there will be something remedial enough for you to grasp.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 14, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
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Everybody knows "google" is a mind trick to plant lies on the unsuspecting
"sheeple" by the Main Stream Media, or something.
I don't need no stupid search engine or whatever they are called to know the TRUTH!
So there.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
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Skeptifungi,
Lets see, gene's mutate. Check
Gene's contain information in order to produce certain proteins. Check
There is a mutation in this "information" and before this mutation it isn't conscious, but after this mutation it is. Check
What did I learn.
That you enjoy being condescending.
Is this condescension the result of a mutation?
My conclusion.
Yes. Sometimes evolution happens in a punctuated event.
Were you beat as a child?
SF
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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Nice. You've just shown that if you can't win a debate with someone, then you'll resort to calling them names to try and provoke them. Very mature indeed. I'll bet you'd like to hit me too. I'm still waiting for you to irrefutably prove that god=consciousness.
I've answered all of your questions, why can't you answer mine?
Oh sorry. No, I had a very happy childhood.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 14, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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I'm trying to win something?!?
god = consciousness. I stated that I think everything is consciousness. If you want to call it god or a mutation that is fine with me.
SF
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 14, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
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Personally, a person's faith was a non-issue with me until certain branches calling themselves christian began doing things I had never associated with christ, began insisting that they be allowed to determine how others must live, and who had no problem with violating the law.
I agree jstan. That's why I find the way our military handles religion to be so instructional. In fact, I don't know if I could ever work again in a non ecumenical environment.
Our military is sworn to uphold the constitution as a whole, and religious freedom is only a part of the whole.You could say a general civic religion comes first and only afterwards, the various denominations. Perhaps if we had some sort of universal service (not all of it military), those ideals would trickle down.
As for praying for dead Iraqis and Afghanis, that is done too. Keep in mind Tony, that the military does what it's ordered to do. if you don't like our imperialism, change the political establishment, but of course that takes changing the voters so they're not misled by vested interests.
Any way you look at it, education is the key and there are plenty of indications that young people feel differently than the older generation. Just look at gay rights. The majority of young people polled see it as a civil rights issue primarily, not a religious one.
Meanwhile Fructose and some others might be interested to hear that the minister of the largest fundamentalist church off base, where they're allowed to be as narrow minded as they want, specifically told his congregation that education was good but whatever they did, they should avoid taking classes from myself because "she will challenge everything you believe". Of course, there's no higher compliment you can give a teacher.
Fortunately, young people being rebellious, I found out about this as several of their congregation appeared in my very next comparative religion and physical anthropology classes to find out what I was really like! What was so threatening, it turns out, was that I can quote scripture and give a different interpretation than what they've heard. Religious pluralism is a much greater threat to fundamentalism than atheism ever was.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Aug 14, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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What I believe:
First, a clarification: This is not an attempt to proselytize. High Fructose and Norton have asked me at different times to state as clearly as I can my beliefs. This is a second attempt. I am just throwing it out there.
1) That God became human in Jesus of Narareth.
2) That Jesus' primary mission was to witness to the poor and the "wicked" (social outcasts) the offer of love.
3) That this mission got him killed.
4) That he rose from the dead.
5) That the belief that he rose from the dead is not rational in the modernistic understanding of rational. In fact, to the modern rationalist, this belief must appear very bizarre. This is not to say that a person cannot make sense of it, only that it does not fit in the worldview of modernist rationalism.
6)That, for the (authentic) Christian, the Resurrection confirms the mission to love the poor and outcast.
7) Therefore, the primary calling of the Christian is to love (affrim the dignity of) the poor and the outcast, even at risk to one's own life (This is not to say that people of other convictions cannot or do not have analogous callings.). The calling to risk one's life for the poor and outcast can only be argued so far; the best argument is to display the way of life of this calling (The web forum genre is limited in this respect.).
8) Although risk is not the point (love is), the clearest sign that a "Christian" is not a Christian (follower of Jesus Christ) is a life that has never been at risk for the poor and the outcast. Do such "Christians" think Jesus was joking or only being metaphorical when he said that anyone who follows him must take up the cross? In most societies, following the call to affirm the dignity of the poor and the outcast will marginalize and even be life-threatening to the (authentic) Christian. This is because most societies are oppressive in the fact that they rely on the construction of scapegoats (in most cases the poor and the "wicked") to retain social order. Violence-grounded order is not a fact only of Christian societies, but of most societies. To affirm the dignity of the outcast is to risk that violence oneself. I do work in warzones -- scenes of genocide, really -- and post-conflict zones. It's the best I can do.
Nort, Fructose, Pate, I know fake Christians piss you off. Fructose and Pate, perhaps all Christians do. For me, fake Christians bring a combination of anger and sadness.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 14, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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The real issues before us do relate to the separation of church and state. Not just the U.S. policy but also the basic idea. -Which has all these sides and dimensions and ramifications to it.
It's only natural (a) that Christians and Muslims want to see their values (their religious values) reflected in, also upheld by, their society's norms, policies and laws; (b) that they work, and are seen working, toward that objective.
This is where things get complicated and why they can get ugly.
.....
I did try to raise this discussion before. Of course it went over like a lead baloon and broke out into all these lines of misunderstanding. I guess I wasn't clear enough as some even thought I was trying to bring prayer to public schools.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1101085/Separation-of-Church-and-State-Not-in-Schools
.....
Pate- Once again, a little uncanny here. For a long time I've drawn a distinction between (a) respect for one's belief and (b) respect for one's right to belief. Just sayin' - as you posted that very thing a few pages back and in the zeitgeist (spirit of the times) one hardly hears that nuanced in public discourse. But maybe 10 years from now, a new zeitgeist will be at hand and more will be made of it, this distinction.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 15, 2010 - 12:02am PT
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HFCS
On teaching comparative religion in public school.
When a realistic person proposes public policy they have the duty also to examine what approaches will be taken to game the new system. Like get real - as they used to say.
Comparative religion in schools fails that test. It is all we can do to enforce the blanket prohibition we have now.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 15, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Yes, permission to teach comparative religion in public elementary and secondary schools might easily be abused.
But then, part of the issue is the increasing proportion of students in private schools, placed there by parents concerned about standards in the public system, for religious/cultural reasons, or for "white flight" reasons. There's an open question as to what is taught in private schools, particularly given that many of the children of the wealthier attend them.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 15, 2010 - 02:35am PT
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Yes, in regard to climbing anchors. No, in regard to consciousness.
Thank's for the plug, but I've studied consciousness a lot more than anchors. You're mistaking "self-awareness" for consciousness. But consciousness makes no sense without no-thingness from which it arises and to which it returns.
JL
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 15, 2010 - 06:49am PT
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But consciousness makes no sense without no-thingness from which it arises and to which it returns.
It makes perfect sense that consciousness comes and goes with us, percolating in and out of existence from a roiling vacuum no differently than anything else in our universe.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
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you've been on your island too long, jan, believing what you're paid to teach. i know that you must have a front row seat to the regular rapings of young local women by u.s. marines and the covering up that goes on by the u.s. military and its japanese government lackeys. put a flower or two in your chapel for the deflowered.
that's american empire. hope you're happy being a part of it. personally, i'm more in sympathy with the young fella who returned home after a year in iraq, mad as hell because he hadn't been given the chance to kill anyone. spirituality begins with being honest with yourself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
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re: hermeneutics
OMG. Just listened to We Are the Champions. By Queen. It is as if this was written for the atheists of history. Now THAT is a beautiful interpretation.
I've paid my dues
Time after time
I've done my sentence
But committed no crime
And bad mistakes
I've made a few
I've had my share of sand kicked in my face
But I've come through
The atheists of history (e.g., Thomas Paine, Thomas Huxley) were heroic, they were champions. Someday we'll have an institution or two that recognizes this fact.
But it's been no bed of roses
No pleasure cruise -
I consider it a challenge before the whole human race
And I aint gonna lose -
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2010 - 01:07pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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I don't know, Pate. Not long ago, Skip posted some crazy sh#t on an electrical thread that proved he knew nothing more than crazy sh#t regarding electrical stuff to those in the know but posted up anyways. So it's going to be awhile before he earns back MY faith (i.e., my results-based faith). At this point, he's got a big scarlet question mark drawn on his forehead in my coloring book.
.....
That is beautiful, Wade. Beautiful structure. Beautiful material. Looks comforting, warm to the touch, too.
.....
Healy wrote-
"It makes perfect sense that consciousness comes and goes with us, percolating in and out of existence from a roiling vacuum no differently than anything else in our universe."
-My belief exactly.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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i have come to the guarded conclusion that pate and fructo are the same individual in that advanced state of schizophrenia where certain personality traits--in this case, the coining of inutile words on the part of fructo and an obsession with nuns on the part of pate--remain distinct.
the only alternate explanation for their unusually concordant behavior was inadvertently suggested by misterE on the paranormal thread. it could actually be that one of them, and i can't determine which, is a human being and the other is a metaphysical entity being channeled by the human.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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"inutile" <<L in-, not + utilis, useful>>
bwahahahah!
What's with the fixation anyhow? Did you want to be the only applied linguist at the the Taco? Okay.
From my perspective, tho, you are - or at least you turned into - the proverbial obstructionist to the creative process. -Criticizing something before you've even tried it out.
EDIT 1:19p Didn't need to look it up - any more than I need to look up "cordelette" - there you go - another false premise on your part. You're chockful of them.
ah, that's it, I shot down your paranormalist theories (pseudosophies, really) and so you're striking back the only way you know how.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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neener neener--made ya look it up. i thought entities never had to do that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:28pm PT
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re: schizo
Most of us are schizophrenic <<Gr split + minded>> when it comes to Santa Claus. Believing in him on one level and NOT believing him on another level. Perfectly sensible. I'm glad America if not the entire world is enriched by the custom, story, celebration of Santa Claus. -But this does point the way moreover to an understanding of God and the Abrahamic narrative as well.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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you know, fruct, i was leaning towards pate being human and you being the entity, but i fear it's the other way around and i'll never get that six-pack of beer. pate's nun habit probably arose from nondimensional exposure to the repressive aura broadcast from convent life, something which has resonated in his bodyless existence for centuries. on the other hand, you seem to have much more ego invested in your online image, a sure sign of blood pulsing feverishly through real arteries.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 15, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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For a view of how death and afterlife may work, and a modern day example of a human physically resurrecting from the dead, I'd recommend those participating in this thread read the following chapter in Paramahansa Yogananda's book "Autobiography of a Yogi" I it, Yogananda's dead Guru physically materializes from thin air and describes what happens to souls after death and how they evolve though the heavenly realms.
Note that Both Yogananda and Yukeshwar were lovers of Christ and both wrote books reconciling Christianity with eastern traditions
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.html
A bit of an example from the chapter
"..."There are many astral planets, teeming with astral beings," Master began. "The inhabitants use astral planes, or masses of light, to travel from one planet to another, faster than electricity and radioactive energies.
"The astral universe, made of various subtle vibrations of light and color, is hundreds of times larger than the material cosmos. The entire physical creation hangs like a little solid basket under the huge luminous balloon of the astral sphere. Just as many physical suns and stars roam in space, so there are also countless astral solar and stellar systems. Their planets have astral suns and moons, more beautiful than the physical ones. The astral luminaries resemble the aurora borealis-the sunny astral aurora being more dazzling than the mild-rayed moon-aurora. The astral day and night are longer than those of earth.
"The astral world is infinitely beautiful, clean, pure, and orderly. There are no dead planets or barren lands. The terrestrial blemishes-weeds, bacteria, insects, snakes-are absent. Unlike the variable climates and seasons of the earth, the astral planets maintain the even temperature of an eternal spring, with occasional luminous white snow and rain of many-colored lights. Astral planets abound in opal lakes and bright seas and rainbow rivers.
"The ordinary astral universe-not the subtler astral heaven of Hiranyaloka-is peopled with millions of astral beings who have come, more or less recently, from the earth, and also with myriads of fairies, mermaids, fishes, animals, goblins, gnomes, demigods and spirits, all residing on different astral planets in accordance with karmic qualifications. Various spheric mansions or vibratory regions are provided for good and evil spirits. Good ones can travel freely, but the evil spirits are confined to limited zones. In the same way that human beings live on the surface of the earth, worms inside the soil, fish in water, and birds in air, so astral beings of different grades are assigned to suitable vibratory quarters.
"Among the fallen dark angels expelled from other worlds, friction and war take place with lifetronic bombs or mental mantric3 vibratory rays. These beings dwell in the gloom-drenched regions of the lower astral cosmos, working out their evil karma.
"In the vast realms above the dark astral prison, all is shining and beautiful. The astral cosmos is more naturally attuned than the earth to the divine will and plan of perfection. Every astral object is manifested primarily by the will of God, and partially by the will-call of astral beings. They possess the power of modifying or enhancing the grace and form of anything already created by the Lord. He has given His astral children the freedom and privilege of changing or improving at will the astral cosmos. On earth a solid must be transformed into liquid or other form through natural or chemical processes, but astral solids are changed into astral liquids, gases, or energy solely and instantly by the will of the inhabitants.
"The earth is dark with warfare and murder in the sea, land, and air," my guru continued, "but the astral realms know a happy harmony and equality. Astral beings dematerialize or materialize their forms at will. Flowers or fish or animals can metamorphose themselves, for a time, into astral men. All astral beings are free to assume any form, and can easily commune together. No fixed, definite, natural law hems them round-any astral tree, for example, can be successfully asked to produce an astral mango or other desired fruit, flower, or indeed any other object. Certain karmic restrictions are present, but there are no distinctions in the astral world about desirability of various forms. Everything is vibrant with God's creative light.
"No one is born of woman; offspring are materialized by astral beings through the help of their cosmic will into specially patterned, astrally condensed forms. The recently physically disembodied being arrives in an astral family through invitation, drawn by similar mental and spiritual tendencies.
"The astral body is not subject to cold or heat or other natural conditions. The anatomy includes an astral brain, or the thousand-petaled lotus of light, and six awakened centers in the sushumna, or astral cerebro-spinal axis. The heart draws cosmic energy as well as light from the astral brain, and pumps it to the astral nerves and body cells, or lifetrons. Astral beings can affect their bodies by lifetronic force or by mantric vibrations.
"The astral body is an exact counterpart of the last physical form. Astral beings retain the same appearance which they possessed in youth in their previous earthly sojourn; occasionally an astral being chooses, like myself, to retain his old age appearance." Master, emanating the very essence of youth, chuckled merrily.
"Unlike the spacial, three-dimensional physical world cognized only by the five senses, the astral spheres are visible to the all-inclusive sixth sense-intuition," Sri Yukteswar went on. "By sheer intuitional feeling, all astral beings see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. They possess three eyes, two of which are partly closed. The third and chief astral eye, vertically placed on the forehead, is open. Astral beings have all the outer sensory organs-ears, eyes, nose, tongue, and skin-but they employ the intuitional sense to experience sensations through any part of the body; they can see through the ear, or nose, or skin. They are able to hear through the eyes or tongue, and can taste through the ears or skin, and so forth.4
"Man's physical body is exposed to countless dangers, and is easily hurt or maimed; the ethereal astral body may occasionally be cut or bruised but is healed at once by mere willing."
"Gurudeva, are all astral persons beautiful?"
"Beauty in the astral world is known to be a spiritual quality, and not an outward conformation," Sri Yukteswar replied. "Astral beings therefore attach little importance to facial features. They have the privilege, however, of costuming themselves at will with new, colorful, astrally materialized bodies. Just as worldly men don new array for gala events, so astral beings find occasions to bedeck themselves in specially designed forms.
"Joyous astral festivities on the higher astral planets like Hiranyaloka take place when a being is liberated from the astral world through spiritual advancement, and is therefore ready to enter the heaven of the causal world. On such occasions the Invisible Heavenly Father, and the saints who are merged in Him, materialize Themselves into bodies of Their own choice and join the astral celebration. In order to please His beloved devotee, the Lord takes any desired form. If the devotee worshiped through devotion, he sees God as the Divine Mother. To Jesus, the Father-aspect of the Infinite One was appealing beyond other conceptions. The individuality with which the Creator has endowed each of His creatures makes every conceivable and inconceivable demand on the Lord's versatility!" My guru and I laughed happily together.
"Friends of other lives easily recognize one another in the astral world," Sri Yukteswar went on in his beautiful, flutelike voice. "Rejoicing at the immortality of friendship, they realize the indestructibility of love, often doubted at the time of the sad, delusive partings of earthly life.
"The intuition of astral beings pierces through the veil and observes human activities on earth, but man cannot view the astral world unless his sixth sense is somewhat developed. Thousands of earth-dwellers have momentarily glimpsed an astral being or an astral world...."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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isn't it weird to you, Karl, that such descriptions are so human-, earth-centric?
I would expect that if such places really existed they'd be like nothing we have experience of... yet all these descriptions are made in terms of what we would consider "ideal," as if just an extension of our current lives.
Perhaps that description is just a metaphor...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
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not only is it human and earth-centric, karl, but it's also culture-specific. paramahansa is in ecstasy over his vision of lord krishna, the way a catholic saint would get over a vision of jesus and his sacred heart or mary bluegown. not to disparage these experiences--i think paramahansa led an interesting life--but they have parallels and, therefore, i believe, nothing absolute about them. rather, just more data for a scientist with an open mind to start sorting it.
another notation: the politically weaker east loves to imagine collegiality with jesus (cf. baha'ullah), the key myth of western imperialism, but you'll notice it never works in the other direction. you don't have gurus coming over here and getting their holy butts into the canon of saints.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 15, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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Ed wrote
"isn't it weird to you, Karl, that such descriptions are so human-, earth-centric?
I would expect that if such places really existed they'd be like nothing we have experience of... yet all these descriptions are made in terms of what we would consider "ideal," as if just an extension of our current lives."
and Tony wrote
"not only is it human and earth-centric, karl, but it's also culture-specific. paramahansa is in ecstasy over his vision of lord krishna, the way a catholic saint would get over a vision of jesus and his sacred heart or mary bluegown. not to disparage these experiences"
Which just goes to show you guys didn't read the chapter. Yukteshwar goes on to describe higher levels of evolved life that are without body or form. Yogananda is clear that God appears in the form that the devotee expects and desires because the ultimate being is ultimately formless.
from the link
"..."Joyous astral festivities on the higher astral planets like Hiranyaloka take place when a being is liberated from the astral world through spiritual advancement, and is therefore ready to enter the heaven of the causal world. On such occasions the Invisible Heavenly Father, and the saints who are merged in Him, materialize Themselves into bodies of Their own choice and join the astral celebration. In order to please His beloved devotee, the Lord takes any desired form. If the devotee worshiped through devotion, he sees God as the Divine Mother. To Jesus, the Father-aspect of the Infinite One was appealing beyond other conceptions. The individuality with which the Creator has endowed each of His creatures makes every conceivable and inconceivable demand on the Lord's versatility!" My guru and I laughed happily together..."
peace
Karl
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 15, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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WTF???
LOL111!!!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 15, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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Fructose is damn good at it too.
I am but a lamb.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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it's too sad to be gleeful about, pate, and too outrageous not to mention. i know about this because my wife is from japan and she happens to read the leading newspapers daily as part of her job. such incidents have gone on for years and came to a head a few years back when the okinawa locals were in the streets protesting. murder often goes along with such rapes. if you care about america you open your eyes to such things. ugly americans hate to look in the mirror.
i've come to admire jan's adventurousness and erudition, but she closes her mind to certain things. her last post shows a naïveté about america that belies a long absence and a tendency to look the other way, especially on payday.
you don't have to join the military unless you want to. the government learned some hard lessons during the vietnam era about pushing the mainstream into half-assed wars and contrived conflicts. most people in the military these days are kids without college opportunity and--open your eyes, you stupid rednecks--illegal aliens. the first body bag to come back to los angeles in the second iraq conflict was occupied by a guatemala native who had been an illegal two years before. when my wife became a citizen, half a dozen of the inductees were wearing military uniforms with rank all the way up to sergeant. the marine recruiters who provide jan her students are known to go down to tijuana high school and tell the assembly, "if you've got a green card, we've got an offer for you".
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 15, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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But consciousness makes no sense without no-thingness from which it arises and to which it returns.
It makes perfect sense that consciousness comes and goes with us, percolating in and out of existence from a roiling vacuum no differently than anything else in our universe.
---
IMO, that's getting close, but still no cigar.
The roiling vacuum is a great metaphor.
The limitation is the implication that consciousness is something our evolved brain does, as opposed to what the whole shebang is. Ergo, you're still looking for a cause in the "stuff," a material producer, whereas it's just the infinite interplay of nothingness and form, which are two side of the same coin, phasing in and out of time and through this phasing, producing time.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 16, 2010 - 02:02am PT
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We're a pretty arrogant bunch of spirits in meat suits thinking our few hundred years of serious science has given us all the answers. Here's a gem off the NASA site at
http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/
"What Is Dark Energy?
More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe..."
So science knows almost nothing about the majority of the universe but enough to ignore spirituality and the subtle realms it points to.
Peace
Karl
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 16, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
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"So science knows almost nothing about the majority of the universe..."
Then again, it knows magnitudes more about it than our bronze-age ancestors - who sourced the Abrahamic religions - ever did.
.....
Earlier TG encouraged us to check out a couple of links to Gary Gutting. I had never heard of him previously. But here's a conclusion of his:
"The God Delusion [of Richard Dawkins] does not meet the standards of rationality that a topic as important as religion requires."
What a mind blowing, facepalm-inducing statement. Yes, we're definitely saying good bye to one age and walking through to another. Gary Gutting is an Edsel, he's an expert from another era.
.....
Do the religious people have anything good to say about our mechanistic nature, our machinery of life, our 100 trillion cells working in synergy - that the sciences over the last couple centuries have figured out, revealed - do they?
Do the Abrahamic religions or their leadership in the 21st century make any effort at all to deal with nature as is? to adapt? to re-orient their attitudes? to come to grips with the constraints, the limits, of the natural world? Making such an effort would be a sign of increasing (growing) spiritual maturation.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 16, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
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Earlier I posted a line from Sam Harris:
"Tolerance of religious stupidity has a way of making liars and cowards of people who should have nothing to fear from the fruits of honest reasoning."
His made me think of a corallary:
Partisan defense of ol' time religions and theologies has a way of turning people against science. It's really unfortunate.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 16, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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"...It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe..."
Well, put it this way- if my protection pulled, I'd rather fall a couple hundred feet and deck against that immeasurable majority than than the measurable minority - the 5% - you seem to enjoy trivializing.
.....
Earlier, somebody expressed the idea that the two (or more) sides of this thread can't be reconciled. I think this is the view of many. What this thread and all its content do is reinforce the growing realization that there needs to be alternative genres of belief - one religious, the other or others TBDious - to reflect the wide cross-section of personalities of believers - each genre free to express their own ideas and practices for getting on in the "practice" of living. That would be a mark of growth, headway, I think.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 16, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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Tony-
I'm working against a deadline for the next day or so and don't have time for a long reply but I definitely will. While I appreciate your role as the village contrarian, you don't really have your facts straight and you will never get a straight story about Okinawa from a mainland Japanese wife reading Japanese papers.
Next thing you will be telling me that the Japanese did not commit atrocities in Okinawa and the rest of Asia, that the rape of Nanjing never happened etc. because that's what the Japanese textbooks say. Try reading some Okinawan history from their point of view or ours instead.
You want to talk about the atrocities of rape and murder, read how a quarter of the civilian population here was killed in a month's time because the mainland Japanese decided to sacrifice the occupied Okinawans to save the mainland. Read about the enslaved Korean comfort girls who died in the war here or the poor Okinawans who committed suicide because of Japanese propaganda, or the Okinawans who were killed for speaking their own dialect during the war, or the Okinawans who were hiding in their family tombs who were shot so the Japanese soldiers could hide there instead.
After you've made your way through that, then ask yourself how bad the Americans really are in comparison.And while you're at it, ask your wife if she knows about the schools refusing to play the national anthem or fly the Japanese national flag until just a few years ago. Ask about the Japanese flag being burned at the national athletic meet attended by the crown prince when Emperor Hirohito was dying. Ask her if she knows about the Okinawan independence movement.
This is for starters. I could write a lot more.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Tony Bird,
You sure like to shine the light just where you want to look.
that's american empire. hope you're happy being a part of it.
I assume that you are a US citizen and are part of the "american empire" as well. Forgive me if this is incorrect, but if not, then I could say say something similar to you. It is meaningless to do so.
Your derision characterizes the military wrongly. There are many fine people in it. Like any other sub-group in our culture there are those who do bad things.
I'd rather hear about what you are doing to end the american empire that you dislike than to deride a person who devotes time and energy to positive actions as you lump them with the type of person who rapes and murders.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
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Obviously you do Pate. Addiction is hard.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 05:53pm PT
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Because you monitor ST like a cop on a beat. You are always here. You've got this place wired like a V3 in your backyard. You need to get out a bit lad.
My conclusion: You care, the bully in you just can't take being trolled.
Edit: for precision.
SF
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 16, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
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sorry, scarf, not my empire. the american system i subscribe to abides by its own laws and plays fair at home and abroad. sound familiar? i doubt it.
let's see if i have this right, jan--the japanese raped nanking so it's okay for u.s. marines to rape okinawans. of course, the japanese government won't prosecute any marines since they learned who the boss is a long time ago. so you're championing the okinawa cause against the japanese, but not against your employer, the u.s. military, right? you're smarter than i gave you credit for.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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Tony,
You're lumping individual marines with the US Marines.
edit to add:
So what are you doing to make america become your ideal? Posting on the internet?
SF
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 16, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
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if there were honor in the marines, rapes would not be covered up, restitution would be made, and perpetrators would be discharged, prosecuted and made examples of.
hey, i'm cool. i know that joining the military has always been a trade-off. your life may go on the line in the battlefield, but certain other rules are relaxed. it's why the girls were named after general hooker. that has been a big industry in okinawa, but it seems some want the extra thrill of picking on local housewives and schoolchildren, all the way down to an 8-year-old girl.
i wouldn't be on jan's case if she just took the federal paycheck and went climbing, but she pretends to champion the fragile okinawan culture and eclecticize all manner of religious mysticism, east and west. perhaps she's a warrior nun in the new earth army.
it's the same situation, really, with the roman catholic church. a priest may have to give up sex with women, but he can have his way with altar boys provided for his comfort, and if things get hot, there's shelter in the vatican. empires feed on power sex and they never follow their own rules.
scarfy, i do what i can, and you don't want to know what i do. since you're happy with the empire, i won't even ask what you do, because i know it's--nothing.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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Tony,
Actually, I am active. But I can't go into it.
I think that you misdirect your anger. Most soldiers that I know (many) are some of the most resolute with the concept of protecting the natural rights of people everywhere.
I am sure you and I would find a lot of common ground with respect to those who pull the strings. I am all for transparency of organizational decisions be they government or corporate. I am not an elitist. There is an unintended consequence to the fact that we have put a generation into a decade plus of war. I'm sure glad I didn't spend my 20's in Iraq. On the plus side, They don't harbor a lot of illusion.
The state of our imperialism is becoming very obvious and will continue to do so as the insulated populace begins to deal with returning soldiers. These soldiers have multiple deployments and trauma under their belts. They are not bad people. Many who made the choice to join have had quite an education. I hope more of them enter politics. I much prefer a John Kerry who did tours in Vietnam than a Bush or Cheney who are poseurs (thanks Pate).
Sorry, I know this is off topic to this thread, but this thread has been beat to death.
SF
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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Pate,
Thank you. You always sink to a lower level. Predictability is comforting even as it is boring.
SF
Edit to add: I think you are having a crisis of will. You may find that getting out on a route that is over your head very therapeutic.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 16, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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Tony-
You really need to start relying on something other than left wing Japanese papers for your information. The all volunteer U.S. military does not cover up rapes and in fact, court martials many service people after the Japanese have declined to press charges. If there's any hint of impropriety they are thrown out of the military. The incidence of rape and murder over here are far lower than in the States (though even one is too high), and the percentage of rapes by our people are lower than by the locals.
Regarding the two cases you are referring to, the men who raped the 12 year old got only 6 years in prison because three Okinawans had raped a 12 year old only six months before and gotten 3 years for it. In good conscience even the justly irate Okinawans could not sentence foreigners to more than double what their own people got. All Americans on Okinawa were asked by the military to contribute to that girl's restitution fund by the way, and everyone from the local commander to President Clinton made an apology.
Then there was the more recent case of the high school girl who claimed rape which turned out to be a kiss and groping. Charges were dropped when it was discovered that the girl regularly sold herself to both Japanese tourists and Americans, for spending money, and had taken money from that guy before. He was a civilian by the way and lost his job and was deported as soon as he got out of jail. Of course in Japan, the police can hold you for 11 days with no charges and if you're Japanese or Okinawan beat you until they get a confession.
Meanwhile, ask yourself why we are still here? Do you really want the Japanese to rearm? Do you want an arms race in Asia if they do? Do you really think the Chinese and North Koreans wish them well? Yes, we have an empire. Like all empires it sometimes does good and sometimes does bad. On the good side it has prevented WWIII for 60 years now.
Our empire has also shamelessly backed many dictators, especially if they had oil. Noriega and Hussein went from allies to deposed when they defied us, but they were hardly innocents that anyone defended. It is much more dismaying that our government backed by the majority of our people, chose to believe lies in order to attack someone, anyone, for 9/11. Just like Vietnam, that will come back to haunt us for at least a whole generation. However, the world is full of shades of gray. It's easy to criticize, much harder to find a solution.
I happen to think that teaching America's lower classes and enterprising immigrants - giving the guys from the ghettos, barrios, and tar paper shacks of our country - an education and shot at middle class life, to be an honorable calling. I could have made more money and certainly had a lot more comfortable life in the U.S. teaching the middle and upper classes at some elite school.
Meanwhile, I am aghast that that our military members are getting killed and maimed to keep the price of oil low so that the average American can keep their heat and air con 10 degrees above or below room temperature and drive everywhere on cheap gas. No rationing, no war bonds, no tax raises, just death and destruction in our name while America parties on. However, unless you are off grid and bicycle everywhere and withold that part of your income tax that goes to the military, forcing the IRS to confiscate it and fine you every year, you're guilty too.
As for my paycheck, it comes from the University of Maryland. My W-4 is issued by the state of Maryland. Of course if you trace it back far enough, it actually comes from the U.S. taxpayers, including you, as does a large part of any professor's, whose institution collects government money in any form whether research grants or student loans and grants. Perhaps that is also your complaint?
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jstan
climber
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Aug 16, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
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One of the toughest choices to be made on ST is the decision as to which posts merit a response and which do not. Seems to me posts possessing a high temperature and a low rationality are best ignored. Other people who are also typically running at elevated temperature will be sympathetic both to the lack of rationality and the temperaure. Any response is wasted on them. Those not in this category will dismiss such posts out of hand.
But it's always a tough call.
As to Japan's rearming I am not sure it is going to be avoidable. If I were Japanese would I trust the US to make the very hard decisions potentially needed to support the Japanese people? In recent years I myself have lost the confidence I once had in this regard.
Japan, clearly can go nuclear in a very short time. An inabiliy to test is the crux. But an aggressor will be just as much in doubt over the lack of testing as will the defense.
The question is will the Japanese revert to the psychology that existed in the 30's when under pressure? In Japan I wonder if that is not primarily a cultural thing. From what I see of young Germans I don't get the feeling they would do so except under extreme dislacement.
Frankly, at this time, I think the US is closer to that psychology than almost any other major country.
The Japanese are educated and they are not dumb. If I see something like this, so might they. Indeed if my worries are on target I would expect Japan to begin serious efforts to develop new alliances.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 16, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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jstan-
The question is who else could possibly be their ally? None of the countries they occupied, which excludes China, the Koreas, Taiwan, and all of S.E. Asia with the exception of Thailand, not exactly a military power. They are also deeply at odds with Russia over their occupation of the Russian speaking Kuril islands.
A recent Foreign Affairs article predicted that 50 years from now our "Asian" bases will be in the Marianas and Hawaii and our only allies in Asia will be the two strong democracies - Japan and India. Perhaps the two of them would form an alliance without us?
In any case, the rest of Asia is rushing to realign with China which is being very astute with its strategic planning. The Chinese interior minister mentioned a few years ago by the way, that the Ryukyu islands of which Okinawa is a part "were taken from China by force." In fact, Okinawa was an independent kingdom and a tributary state of China until conquered and bled dry by mainland Japan starting in the late 1600's.
The same interior minister added, "China is willing to lose 50 cities to nuclear attack to regain Taiwan. The U.S. is not even ready to sacrifice Los Angeles". Needless to say, that was heard loud and clear in Tokyo. And let us hope he was only posturing.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 16, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
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Tung asks two questions:
So here is my first question: Has the history of the theory of evolution -- from the beginning tightly interwoven with the theory of social evolution -- been any less violent than the history of religions? It seems to me that it has not been any less violent. This does not make the point that religions have been violent go away, but it does mean that patterned violence is not found uniquely in religion
---------------------------
The answer to this is NO. Evolution is packed full of violence, kill or be killed for many species.
There is no hypocrisy in evolution, it is what it is.
The perverse hypocrisy is of religions that profess to be all about emulating a supposedly loving god, and then torturing, raping, and murdering
other human beings because they don't worship the same god you do.
(think the Crusades, as just one example)
As for the second question: Tung, please understand that the language
that some here use is a result of their exasperation with fundamentalist
Christians who continue to insist that humans did NOT "evolve" from
earlier primates, but instead were "created" a couple thousand years ago.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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Jan:
What you mention is the primary barrier, possibly a cultural barrier that Japan it seems to me, has to vault in forming its new alliances. S. Korea is a large economy based upon high technology but there is so much emotional residue left over from WWII. Suppose Japan and S. Korea have together developed ties to rapidly developing Malaysian countries along with Australia. And they have reasonable working relations with China. (Working together is a given in light of globalization. You have to be able to work with those who have agendae different from your own.) The cost of producing goods in Malaysia is becoming lower than that in China. And that trend is accelerating. But Malaysia needs scale! Malaysia, and for that matter India have to try and emulate the miracle threaded by China. But for them the US will no longer be able to act as a rich uncle. We are tapped out.
What is India going to think? India will love it. If you have two centers to play off against each other - you have it made. It is like the person who reports to two supervisors. You can do what ever you darn well please.
To achieve this it seems, in my ignorance, individual Japanese may have to swallow some bitter pills. You are closer to this than am I. I don't see any way around it. This is Japan's future. And Japan has the chance to hold the aces.
Russia will be leveraging its natural resources and has to remain as concerned now with what it sees developing to its East as it was 30 years ago. Were the US to develop a rational and consistent world view, Russia is perhaps our natural ally. You guess is as good as mine as to whether the US is capable of developing same.
For so long as the US is absent a functional system for public education, I think all bets are off.
The future will be a runaway train.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:26am PT
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Nice Post Jan.
Things are not as simple as people think and info from somebody who is there and knows what she is talking about is helpful
peace
karl
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scarface
Trad climber
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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norton,
You offered up a prime example of argument from assumption.
You're emphatic that it is "survival of the fittest". Head to head competition. But evolution could also follow from a core concept of "elimination of the weakest". Quite a different thing than what you describe. One that takes a more (eco)system view.
SF
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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[while standing at the entrance to the Triple Rock church watching the service with much dancing and Hallelujah choruses, a heavenly light shines down on PATE and he has an epiphany]
PATE:...I preach on Supertopo
Reverend Cleophus James: DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT?
PATE: My computer screen???????
Reverend Cleophus James: DO YOU SEE THE LIGHT?
Elwood: What light?
Reverend Cleophus James: HAVE YOU SEEEEN THE LIGHT?
PATE: YES! YES! JESUS H. TAP-DANCING CHRIST... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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Scarface, thank you.
And good night.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 17, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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Haven't really been following along of late to know how all this Okinawa business got going, but I will comment that local girls were being raped by American servicemen when I was there in '72, '73, and to my knowledge it has never stopped. and from what I can tell it's always been considered a cost of posting a large number of American servicemen on the island and accepted by both the U.S. and the Japanese governments as such. The ones who do not accept it are the Okinawans, and rightfully so. But then they have a long history of not being treated well by anyone who has occupied the island, especially the Japanese.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Aug 17, 2010 - 02:00am PT
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Our consciousness thrives in the strange soup of dualism, dialectic is the natural condition of discourse: Light/dark, up/down, right/left, right/wrong, belief/non belief. The position too often irrelevant to the need for rightfulness
Why does humanity take such joy in the great pleasure of disagreement? Because in it is the potential power of rightfulness in which the universe itself seems to lay fine victory on the head of one and intolerable shame on the other.
The righteousness of the self, the celebration of individual superiority over the other, the pissing contest writ large; isn’t this what matters? With some exceptions, I’m not sure anybody really cares about God’s existence or non-existence on this thread, since the important thing is simply the sure superiority of being right and the disdain of the other: pure vanity!
Ask any sophist: to be perceived as right is all in all even if that perception is in error, because the foolishness of others is a function of the superiority of ourselves.
“It is a fine thing to be superior, though it is a superior thing to be fine.”
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 02:13am PT
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interesting, healjye--i was about to concede the point to jan, but your report seems to confirm the impression i've gotten through my wife, who was raised in japan, studied both there and here, and stays in touch with current events professionally.
from my point of view, jan and scarface represent a political orthodoxy which, if overturned in my lifetime, would put a smile on my face when i die. it's a simplistic version of geopolitics administered by big media and that periodical jan quotes with reverence, foreign affairs, designed by insiders to lead americans to think they should have no opinions except what their betters cook up for them. just go shopping, we'll take care of it.
some suggested reading: confessions of an economic hit man by john perkins, a window on what really goes on and how it works. the new word for it is deep politics, and there's already been a conference on it. funny how people coming at it from different directions seem to be reaching the same conclusions.
i'll never forget george bush sr. villifying manuel noriega, then a year later, sadam hussein. same plodding cadence, same song: behold thy antichrist. shortly after that he sunk his bowie knife deep into the back of the chinese freedom movement.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:18am PT
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So Tony, what or who exactly are you proposing to improve the situation? What country in this world would do a better job than the U.S.?
All the major European powers have been tainted by colonialism, all of Asia distrusts if not hates the Japanese, the Russians have already shown us their misuse of power, the Germans didn't have much of an empire but held their own with Nazi imperialism. What if the Arabs could reunite and suddenly decided to return to their conquering days of glory? Some seem to have that idea already.
So who's left?
Seems to me it is the Indians and the Chinese. In general the Chinese have had a pretty benevolent empire as you have already pointed out on another thread. Then there's what the Chinese did in Vietnam for a thousand years and Tibet more recently and what the Chinese did to each other during the cultural revolution, which does not give confidence.Indians fought many wars among themselves but have so far not been expansionist though they have been brutal in Kashmir and towards their own citizens deemed Untouchable.
Maybe, the problem is human beings, not individual nationalities? I believe senseless violence was one of the major issues for the Old Testament prophets, Jesus, Mohammed, and Confucius anyway. Perhaps controlling violence has been a function of religion and philosophy even though it too, was often the cause of violence?
Or maybe the Quakers and Amish and Mennonites are right, better to be someone's slave than ever lift our hand in violence? Of course they won't face that dilemma because they have chosen to live in countries where other people provided the security for their freedom of religion.
So what is your solution, Tony?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:38am PT
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healeyje-
The Vietnam War era and its aftermath in the early '70's was the low point of the American occupation as far as the Okinawans are concerned. There were even race riots between blacks and whites off base during that time. It was unsafe for me to walk across a base in Germany during that era also. It's very hard to discipline an unwilling and often drugged out draftee.
While I have my qualms about a professional military in a democracy, I think you would be amazed at how professional and disciplined the volunteer military is. Random urine tests and the Japanese laws against guns since reversion in 1972, have done wonders here.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 17, 2010 - 03:56am PT
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jstan-
Malaysia was occupied by the Japanese and has no love for them. Meanwhile they have a market in the Muslim countries of the Middle East. Australian and New Zealand prisoners of war were treated so brutally by the Japanese, an alliance would be a very hard sell to them as well. Koreans are more angry about the 50 year Japanese occupation before WWII than the war itself. Then there was the Japanese invasion in the 1500's before that.
A hopeful sign is that the present left of center prime minister did not go to the national war shrine where Gen. Tojo and others have their ashes, this August as is customary, and did apologize for Japan's actions during WWII on that day instead, the first prime minister to do so.
However, Japan's society is rapidly aging and conservative about change and the country is deeply in debt. Personally I don't see any alternative for them but to cling to us.
One of the many paradoxes of life in Japan is that the very cultural rules which work so well among themselves, are the source of them being misunderstood by others. At the top of this list is their habit of ignoring anything that is embarrassing or uncomfortable. I get mainland Japanese students in my classes who have never heard of Pearl Harbor.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 17, 2010 - 04:32am PT
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Jan, all true, but you would be naive in the extreme if you think anything about a more 'professional', drug-tested military will substantially change the problem of rape when you base 25-30K servicemen on a small island with a large population of locals. There is simply no way to avoid rape being a periodic part of the cost of maintaining a military presence there. And the fact that Okinawa bears the brunt of the burden of our military support of Japan is another sad and very telling story about the Japanese people and government all by itself.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 17, 2010 - 05:53am PT
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healeyje-
I agree. Of course all this is part of the complicated triangular ballet that the U.S., Okinawans, and Japanese do every day. Another aspect of American crime in Okinawa is that each incident which is protested is worth millions more in subsidies from Tokyo.
The U.S. only provides 10% or so of the economy now while a much larger chunk of the rest comes from mainland.They have given far more than we ever did and have to a certain extent, bought Okinawan cooperation. You would be amazed at the higher standard of living now compared to the early '70's.
A bigger long term problem than us in my view, is that the mainland Japanese are slowly buying up the island and driving up the cost of living.This is useful to the mainland as it provides lots of cheap temporary Okinawan workers who are easily laid off from the mainland factories.
For sure, never have a nicer group of people than the Okinawans been more screwed over by more people.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2010 - 08:32am PT
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your mistake, jan, is thinking you're dealing with a lot of separate countries.
here's a good place to start. recognize the guy here?
having grown up in chicago, i'd recognize that baseball cap anywhere. but why put it on a mural in the federal building in santa ana, california?
__
another mistake being made here is trusting the u.s.a. with nukes. the nuclear power club is quite large. members all have rings through their noses. japan doesn't belong, but it has a ring as secure as any of the others. club membership is no big deal if you have a dynamic duo like india and pakistan staying peaceful with it. the whole charade just keeps folks like yourselves, and your counterparts in japan, involved in superficial debate.
from my front row seat at the gladiatorial arena, i've gotten the impression that we came quite close to nuking iran during the bush administration. if you didn't notice it, there was a furious back-and-forth on the internet about it. dick cheney was the spearhead, george bush, my guess, dragged his feet, as he did against the great agenda throughout his administration. i can almost admire him for it. there isn't 100 percent concordance in the club that controls things, but there is a brutal discipline. it's highest priority is to hang onto power and continue to control the world. the public is totally out of the loop. you will see grassroots democracy in small towns, and, rarely, in larger cities. in the u.s. the link to the public is severed when someone--anyone--enters congress, again with rare exceptions like paul wellstone. you don't get into the congressional club without joining that other club. weak dissent is allowed, even encouraged, because it enhances the myth of democracy. my favorite weak voices these days belong to ron paul, dennis kucinich and barbara boxer. what sweet little guppies they all are.
iran may still get nuked at the behest of israel, which seems to have far more control over the course america takes than americans. iran today, sadam hussein and manuel noriega, whom jan brought up, and a couple you can read and weep about in perkins' book, jaime roldos and omar torrijos. all independent heads of state, refusing to join the good old boys who really run things. hitler and mussolini went the same route, long before that war came to a head. it's easy to turn people into devils after going through a real war. learn to look for the devil in the winning side. in our lifetimes we got john kennedy, born, like george bush, into the club. he made the tremendous mistake of thinking he could yank free from the ring through his nose.
--
healyje, just to push your historic memory back a few years, our "support" for japan has a certain continuity going back to 1945. there wasn't a helluva lot of choice in the side they took in the cold war. and to push jan's a little further, we must remind you all of the only nation ever to use nuclear weapons as weapons, in the good old tradition of war, which is war on everyone, not in accordance with the niceties of the geneva convention.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Aug 19, 2010 - 10:50pm PT
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Matthew 17:5, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Aug 22, 2010 - 04:17am PT
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Wes- "Tony...care to explain the significance."
Well, I suspect that T.Bird is referring to a young Barrack Obama's likeness, which is displayed along with other culturally significant achievements which our great nation is famous for, on a mural in the federal building in Santa Ana, Ca(believe I read an article about the artist/muralist and the mural some time ago). How this ties into Jan's post i am not sure(haven't been following this thread lately). But your appeal to Tony sparked my curiousity.
edit: the hat would be a Chicago White Sox hat(me thinx)...it would simply say SOX (in white)! B.O. being from ChiTown!!
BTW, I recognised the kid in the pic because it first reminded me of my sixth grade teacher Mr. Cain, who has a striking resemblance to our current Prez.!!
FWIW, Mr. Cain was my greatest role model/influence when I was growing up, other than my father.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Aug 22, 2010 - 10:11am PT
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Psalm 32:11, Be glad in the Lord, and rejoice, O righteous,
and shout for joy, all you upright in heart!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 25, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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Tonight is the last night of Obon in Okinawa - the three days when the ancestors come back to visit their families. The streets are full of costumed dancers beating taiko drums, singing and dancing to give them a good send off. No hassles over dogma, no competing theologies, just a communal celebration with a little magic in the air.
Here's a typical group
http://www.3gpdb.com/videoy.php?b=fyXy2gKAUG1&
and here's a well known Okinawan folk singer with scenes from the island.
http://www.3gpdb.com/videoy.php?b=RaRLz9F69Mm&begin-a
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 26, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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the mural was painted in the late 90s and installed for the dedication of the building in 1999.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 26, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
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Yes Tony, and LONG before anyone had ever heard of a guy named Obama.
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Gregg Olson
Boulder climber
Moorpark, Ca
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Aug 26, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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3 words... Fear Of Death.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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an interesting mural, to say the least. wonder what an art history genius would have to tell us about it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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jstan
climber
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Aug 27, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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"A bigger long term problem than this in my view, is that the mainland Japanese are slowly buying up the island and driving up the cost of living.This is useful to the mainland as it provides lots of cheap temporary Okinawan workers who are easily laid off from the mainland factories."
Something like this could be coming our way because the Chinese are swimming in dollars. All they have to do is start using those dollars to buy properties in the US, companies, whatever. Since they have so many dollars and we have only the debts we floated to allow the dollars to go over in the first place
it could get difficult here.
If we get something like a bottom in the prices of commercial property in New York City and Boston that's where I would start. Then they could build rapid rail between the two cities they own and make it into a powerful economic center, as they seem to be doing in China. Start generating even more dollars right here in the US. US labor will have to be "reallocated" the way labor was reallocated in China. If their economic power gets big enough they might even be able to set up something akin to what the British did in Hong Kong.
They would want to set up US shell corporationsso that they can make unlimited secret political contributions. Once the elections are going their way getting us "reallocated" won't be a problem.
The last few years tells us that.
Interesting.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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not very good fotos--just my cellphone camera.
the security guard noticed me taking pictures and he came up and asked if i could find president reagan in the mural. the federal courthouse building is named for reagan. i looked for quite awhile before he told me. reagan is way in the background, towards the right of the chinese woman, under a yellow balloon.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Aug 27, 2010 - 02:54am PT
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Tony, so was I wrong about it actually being President Obama, or was it just a coincidental likeness to a young B.O. with a White Sox hat?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 27, 2010 - 08:04am PT
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Looks more like a young Tiger Woods to me. But you're right, it's probably some sort of Illuminati mind game they're playing on us sheep...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 10:19am PT
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obama supposedly wore that cap often during his campaign. white sox--that's the team in santa ana, right?
every professional investigator will tell you that there is no such thing as a coincidence. they get paid to believe that, and they're usually right, but sometimes there are coincidences and they make for spectacular acquittals--or wrongful executions. here we have not one, but two coincidences--obama late 90s likeness, chicago baseball cap. perhaps even, or some might say quite obviously, a third--he's about to step onto a skateboard and enter this strange and diverse scene, prominently positioned as a key figure in the language of artistic composition. could have put him back there next to ronald reagan, under that yellow balloon.
it's just a mural, right? decoration of a wall. you can bet an expensive one, paid for with public money for a high-profile building, a federal courthouse. a lot of people in big trouble, and their handlers, get to look at it. i found out about it from a chance acquaintance who went there to pick up the papers he needed to file suit against the federal government. he said he couldn't believe looking up and seeing obama. for him, the baseball cap made the point beyond a doubt, a point which skeptimistic seems to have caught effortlessly. i couldn't believe all this either, which was why i took pains to see for myself. the artist's name is john valadez, grew up in los angeles, a world-famous muralist and also an occasional filmmaker. on the inside track in the art world, not on the outside looking in like every artist i've ever known.
you will find strange murals in public places these days. they tell me the one in the denver airport is quite disturbing. contrast these with the wonderful county courthouse murals of the 1930s, where WPA artists really portrayed the "culturally significant achievements which our great nation is famous for", to use tripl's words. let's take a closer look at this one.
lots of diversity here. many nations. lots of confusion and strangeness, but there's barack. was he a prominent figure in 1997, when valadez started painting this? and notice how he's about to mount a skateboard, as though he's about to take charge of the whole phantasmagoria.
now look at the other prominent figures. the tough latina and her high-strung son, most prominent of all, the arizona rednecks' worst nightmare. how many cases from the border merry-go-round get tried here? the chinese woman seems to be offering dry goods, as if for sale. she wears a yellow tunic, offers red goods. ever go shopping these days? and oh, haha, notice her shiny gold cap?
over to the left you'll see a strange tug of war taking place, a cowcart with a flamenco dancer and a dominatrix in black lingerie pulling against a bunch of grown white men in boy scout uniforms, tied and harnessed with bedsheets, one of them wearing a chief's headdress.
just what some flaky artist dreamed up. art is stupid, but you have to put something up on a blank wall like that. over at the far left stands a white suburban couple, bewildered, defensive. i'd be interested in that article you read, tripl, and how i'm sure it tries to explain this monster back to normalcy.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 27, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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Wow. How do you people sleep at night, knowing that shadow forces are feeding us cryptic prescient messages through public art that foretell the coming New World Order?
Whom should we trust? Who will break us free from the impending bondage and misery of Satan that is surely to follow? Will the magic imaginary friend descend from the sky (as foretold in the world's oldest compendium of fairy tales) to lay waste to all non-believers? Will Glenn Beck be our spokesman?
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jstan
climber
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Aug 27, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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Glenn Beck is not available to be our spokesman. He has been called back for a conference at the space ship on the moon.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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Aug 27, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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Obama supposedly wore that cap often during his campaign. white sox... there is no such thing as a coincidence. ... here we have not one, but two coincidences ... some might say quite obviously, a third ... it's just a mural, right? ... they (edit: who exactly?) tell me the one in the denver airport is quite disturbing. contrast these with the wonderful county courthouse murals of the 1930s, ... notice how he's about to mount a skateboard, as though he's about to take charge of the whole phantasmagoria ... the chinese woman seems to be offering dry goods, as if for sale. she wears a yellow tunic, offers red goods. ever go shopping these days? ... just what some flaky artist dreamed up. ... explain this monster back to normalcy.
I guess the above isn't implying some sort of secret conspiracy?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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interesting--didn't know about barbee, but it sure doesn't look like him--and he's not from chicago. um, do "they all look the same" to you, wes?
i did live through california in the 90s, however, and never saw anything like grown men in scout uniforms being tugged by latina babes with a cowcart. never got into the mainstream, my bad.
china keeps sucking our money, dood. we don't have choices in the stores. but that's "free" enterprise, right? must have a pretty good system there under communism if they can produce everything that cheap. maybe we'll get that here too.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
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wiki says barbee born in '71 in san jose. that vid was a teen, so therefore wes is bringing up a possibility. if he's a cult figure in skateboarding, it could well be. but for my money, it doesn't look like him at all. an obama face on a barbee persona would be a great camouflage. i know one thing about artists--there's a reason for everything, and the subtler the better.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 27, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
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k, wes, you win. it's obviously a mural of commonplace occurences like whiteguy boy scouts trying to out-tug latina dominatrices with cowcarts. gotta lay off that bong--i just don't see the world as it is.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 28, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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if you paid attention through the politics of the past 40 years, you would have noticed a constant "yellowing" of republicans, beginning with nixon's so-called "opening" to china, reagan's high-profile visit in 1984 and george bush sr.'s backing of the brutal repression at tian an men square. during the bush jr. years, china took over our retail markets COMPLETELY.
the talk about freedom and the evils of communism from these people might make me laugh, but my mouth fills up with puke first.
oh, the dems always carry the same ball, but they don't seem to do it quite so well.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 30, 2010 - 11:24am PT
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the art game is a sly one, wes, and you obviously haven't played it. interpretations can never be more than conjectural, and artists never tell.
you got me digging on the denver airport too, a far higher profile there and a storm of conjecture, such that the artist apparently went into hiding for awhile.
here's an example of how subtle it gets. look at what valadez chose for the background for his picture on his website:
http://www.johnvaladezart.com/
coinkydink? he'll never tell.
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pc
climber
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Story about Stephen Hawking changing his position on God.
God did not create the universe, says Hawking
Buzz up!326 votes Share
By Michael Holden – Thu Sep 2, 9:08 am ET
LONDON (Reuters) – God did not create the universe and the "Big Bang" was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics, the eminent British theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking argues in a new book.
In "The Grand Design," co-authored with U.S. physicist Leonard Mlodinow, Hawking says a new series of theories made a creator of the universe redundant, according to the Times newspaper which published extracts on Thursday.
"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.
"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."
Hawking, 68, who won global recognition with his 1988 book "A Brief History of Time," an account of the origins of the universe, is renowned for his work on black holes, cosmology and quantum gravity.
Since 1974, the scientist has worked on marrying the two cornerstones of modern physics -- Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, which concerns gravity and large-scale phenomena, and quantum theory, which covers subatomic particles.
His latest comments suggest he has broken away from previous views he has expressed on religion. Previously, he wrote that the laws of physics meant it was simply not necessary to believe that God had intervened in the Big Bang.
He wrote in A Brief History ... "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God."
In his latest book, he said the 1992 discovery of a planet orbiting another star other than the Sun helped deconstruct the view of the father of physics Isaac Newton that the universe could not have arisen out of chaos but was created by God.
"That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions -- the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass, far less remarkable, and far less compelling evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he writes.
Hawking, who is only able to speak through a computer-generated voice synthesizer, has a neuro muscular dystrophy that has progressed over the years and left him almost completely paralyzed.
He began suffering the disease in his early 20s but went on to establish himself as one of the world's leading scientific authorities, and has also made guest appearances in "Star Trek" and the cartoons "Futurama" and "The Simpsons."
Last year he announced he was stepping down as Cambridge University's Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, a position once held by Newton and one he had held since 1979.
"The Grand Design" is due to go on sale next week.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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It may not be necessary to invoke God to explain the existence of the universe, but God is still not dismissed as an explanation.
No one can explain the random quantum level effects that drive evolution or any other natural process. The element of randomness in quantum effects is the very process that drives evolution and makes life possible.
There is still plenty of room in our 100% naturally existing world to permit a god to be present.
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jstan
climber
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There can be a god. But it is not necessary that that god created the universe. We have a perfectly adequate natural process for the creation of the universe. If a god exists it could well have just been a bystander during the creation of the universe.
The god may even be all-powerful
just inactive during the big bang.
Which brings me back to square 1.
Does anyone have actual data showing an incident in which a god actually was active.
Edit:
Such as cases where ten or twenty amputees all read the bible for the first time and all woke up the next morning with perfect limbs? That would not be conclusive but it would cause others to conduct tests.
The second test might involve two groups of Muslims one reading the bible and the other the Koran. And a similar test for christians.
We could begin to learn something about god if god were to start doing something.
We might then even start to read the bible more carefully than we do at present.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Yer all gonna...
DIE!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Starting right now on NOVA on your television, the descent of man.
Showing clearly how modern humans evolved over the past 200,000 years.
Seems appropriate for the god thread.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Ask, and It Will Be Given
Matthew 7:7, “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
The Golden Rule
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i don't like hawking. i suspect that his spectacular handicap has made him a bit of a dog in the manger. his declarations are the sort that get revised in nanoseconds at every turn in the esoteric game of physics cosmology. i wouldn't take sleeping pills over anything he says. now a gobee quote--where are those pills?
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jstan
climber
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Tony:
Let us disregard for a moment that Hawking was the first or one of the very first to lead the charge regarding emissions from black holes. Forget about his actual achievements. Surely you are aware the thing most able to elevate his standing in the free for all that is science, is his holding the Lucasian professorship at Cambridge. Since you must have been aware of this, your dog in the manger charge implies you believe he was awarded that position because of his disability.
So let us hear the data you have supporting that claim.
Oh, and before I forget. Whether someone is liked or disliked is totally irrelevant. Actually saying this to yourself every morning when you wake up is a very constructive way to start the day.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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hawking is one of many scientists with an advanced, esoteric understanding of the material he's involved with. his honors have nothing to do with his philosophy, which must stand on its own merits. i hope you understand what a dog in the manger is.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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If someone acts like a dog in the manger, they don't want other people to have or enjoy things that are useless to them.
I'm pretty sure Dr Hawking is secure enough in his own philosophy that he couldn't care less what people think about god. He was just stating what he believes is fact.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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here you go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dog_in_the_Manger
Tony keeps us all honest, the big trout, the middle sized ones and the fry...
...I don't know what authority Tony has to do this... he's not so well written or read or distinguished in anything but his ability to post on the STForum; from which we certainly are learning his likes and dislikes...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i'm questioning hawking the man, skept, not hawking the scientist. life brought him a tremendous disappointment and a supreme irony. i'm suggesting this is something quite basic to his outlook. he's not finding god in advanced physical cosmology because he probably doesn't want to look for one.
when a scientist gets to the point where he departs from the science and begins to draw wider conclusions about it all, he's often in strange territory. we've discussed several on this thread: fred hoyle, richard dawkins, stephen jay gould, simon conway-morris, pierre teilhard de chardin. hoyle could certainly be considered one of the hawkings of his day, and he went from atheist to some sort of grudging believer. i think such scientists bring things to the table they may not realize they're bringing. one is the imprint of their early upbringing, religious or whatever. and the other is their personality and disposition, and i don't think it's unfair to suggest that may be a factor with hawking. no one has the final word on these things.
thanks, ed--i'm going to consider that an offhanded compliment. i take as many of those as i can get. one thing the wiki article neglects to mention is that the word "cynic" comes from this ancient greek proverb, deriving from "kion", the greek word for "dog".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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God Commands Burning Humans
[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
Josiah and Human Sacrifice
At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)
He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)
Human Sacrifice
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Child Sacrifice
And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.
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Jefe'
Boulder climber
Bishop
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Because you should
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WBraun
climber
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If everything was happening by chance, how can there be necessity?
By chance certain chemicals combined and formed the basic molecules.
Now where did the chemicals come from? Duh!
If everything is directed by chance, why do people send their children to school?
Let them grow up by chance.
The "Chance Theory" is a fools theory ....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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life brought him a tremendous disappointment and a supreme irony
Apparently you are close friends with Dr Hawking that you can make a judgement such as this.
As someone who works daily with people with all sorts of disabilities, I can safely say that surprisingly few find it a tremendous disappointment. Would he prefer to be "normal"? Likely, but who's to say he would've achieved the great insights he has. There are tradeoffs for every fork in the road of life. I haven't read any reports of him being depressed or maladjusted, so I think your statement above needs some evidence before I accept it as fact. He's one of the most (if not "the most") respected mind in his field; I think life brought him a tremendous honor.
I know it's hard for the "god-fearing" to imagine life without god. It's much easier for us on the other side of the argument. Don't worry, we'll be ok. Go ahead and live your life as you see fit; live and let live.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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none of this matters...
except insofar as previous indiscretions may have led my deserving this incarnation...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Natural selection is not entirely random. Two counter examples are sexual selection and offspring selection. In both cases, the females of various species have had more impact than the males.
Careful observations of birds and other animals indicate that females prefer the slightly different. The male bird with the longer or brighter feather wins the female. If these characteristics are selected repeatedly over time we end up with drab colored females mating with flamboyantly colored and plumaged males, the male peacock being perhaps the most amazing example. Offspring selection ranges from preferential feeding patterns to outright abandonment.
Of course among humans the picture is much more complex. Human females prefer photos of macho looking guys when they are ovulating, more neutral looking guys when they're not. 1/3 of recorded societies preferred to marry their first cousins, thus concentrating certain genes. Polygyny and Polyandry both skew the gene pool. Rampagers and pillagers do as well. 14% of Eurasians contain the genes of Gengis Khan, his brothers or first cousins.
Men have invented elaborate social customs to try to ensure that they propagate their genes and care for their offspring and not someone else's. Human females have been pampering, neglecting, abandoning and now contracepting and aborting selectively as well, in an effort to have some control. And then there is artificial insemination, surrogate parenting and in the future perhaps, cloning as well.
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F -- "Evolution is fact, myths are make believe."
Yes this is true, (Evolution), and has never been denied.
Creation is also true, and has never been denied.
Only those under the spell of the illusionary energy are forced to deny ......
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Wonder
climber
WA
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"The Traditional Monkey"
It all started with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, a banana was hung on a string and a set of stairs was placed under it. Before long, a monkey went to the stairs and started to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touched the stairs, all of the other monkeys were sprayed with cold water. After a while, another monkey made an attempt with the same result - all the other monkeys were sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, anytime another monkey tried to climb the stairs, the other monkeys tried to prevent it.
After a couple of days, the cold water was removed. One monkey was removed from the cage and replaced with a new one. The new monkey saw the banana and wanted to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attacked him. After another attempt and attack, he knew that if he tried to climb the stairs, he would be assaulted.
Next, another of the original five monkeys was removed and replaced it with a new one. The newcomer went to the stairs and was attacked. The previous newcomer took part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, a third original monkey was replaced with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.
Every time the newest monkey took to the stairs, he was attacked. Most of the monkeys that were beating him had no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they were participating in the beating of the newest monkey.
After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys had ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approached the stairs to try for the banana.
Why not?
Because as far as they know, that's the way it's always been done around here.
I dont know why Im telling you this, you should know it by now.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Talking to dog, presumably.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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That's the coolest, Locker!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there all, say... just taking a fast peek in here to see how you all are....
oh my.... the animal kingdom, by looking at all the pics, real fast...
:)
hey there to jan, and all...
well, back i go to look at some trip reports, i missed a lot of them lately... it takes a long time for the pics to load, too...
say, these critter pics were fast...
well, god bless...
and nite-nite to all...
:)
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Wonder
climber
WA
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This guy just loved chapatis the Tibetans would feed him. Then he would sit on my porch and eat them. No one God here, way too many to count.
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jstan
climber
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Life as it exists on earth took more than 3,000,000,000 years to develop. During that time innumerable creatures fought day by day to survive long enough to reproduce. Throughout, fate was the impartial judge determining what was a success and what was a failure.
I ask you. Can you imagine a story more awesome than this immense and never ending struggle?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Food for thought...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Cosmic-
You made my day!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Cosmic,
Too funny. That was good.
lol
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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AN ATHEIST IN THE WOODS
Pretty funny stuff. Interesting that these stories are always told with a christian god. Never heard a Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, etc version.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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The old story goes that sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you.
The way my dad from Wisconsin used to tell the story, the guy turns around and reaches inside the bear's mouth and reaches way back inside and grabs his tail and gives a big jerk and turns the bear inside out so that it winds up running the other direction.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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that's the roman catholic grace, as i recall.
if the bear's parents didn't use birth control, he would have had to use the shorter version to beat the competition:
fodder, son an' holy ghost
who eats the fastest gets the most.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Wasn't that exactly what Steven Hawking said recently, that the universe IS
a "cosmic accident" in effect, and no "god" was necessary for its creation?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Here it is, his new book:
Scientists vs. God
By Alliance Defense Fund
Author: ADF Senior Counsel Kevin Theriot
Renowned physicist, Steven Hawking, is reportedly releasing a new book that concludes “God did not create the universe, and the Big Bang was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics.” Hawking writes:
“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.”
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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I've mentioned several times my opinion that we all have very much to learn. And that I think we are on the verge of a massive breakthrough in our understanding of what we boldly call 'reality'.
Go see the new movie 'Inception'; a spy movie about exploiting dreams. It has more seeds of truth than generally realized, based upon discussions with my impressively wise kids.
And it is incredible to stretch our understanding to fathom all the work that has gone into dreaming up the 'reality' that we all think we are sharing (no accident about it). It's no wonder people seek out a 'Creator'.
Never mind blaming 'God' as the dreamer(and especially don't get so wrapped up in 'his prophets'). We all share in this same bath of creation dreaming.
And, unlike the movie, limbo is not at the bottom of the dream stack; it's more like the top: as in, it resembles what happens when you die out of this shared reality. (Which is really just to say that you lost your body...)
And physicists have been driving themselves nuts nibbling at the edges of the dream construct.
In this world, there is a penalty for death.
We call that penalty 'birth'.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Hi...
Genesis 1:1, In the a beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Simple things amuse simple minds.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Matthew 18:3, and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nice one, Goby.
So the Guy in the Sky says that adults should revert back to acting, and
thinking like CHILDREN, so they can go to "heaven".
Real good advice.
When are YOU going to finally grow up?
We are getting tired of waiting.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Someone who posts only what others have written without any original thought contribution is just a plagiarising troll wasting space on the newsgroup. Something original that actually came from your brain & not written hundreds of years ago would go a long way towards your credibility.
Probably not possible at this late stage of the neurosis.
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nature
climber
Whereverland....
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go-B is a long way past having ANY credibility.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Luke 20:13, Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Gobee is getting what he wants and desperately needs.
He is playing the role of "martyr", or "victim".
He enjoys likening himself to Jesus, because he is being "persecuted" by
me and others in this thread, just like Jesus was persecuted.
This then brings Gobee closer to The Big Guy In The Sky.
Expect more of the same. He is really digging this.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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I really don't pay any attention to him. Once I see his moniker, I move on to the next post. I was just supporting your effort.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Their is only one Lord and savior and that is Jesus, and I need him too!
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go-B
climber
Proverbs 26:12
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Sep 10, 2010 - 10:20am PT
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Matthew 18:10, “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. 12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 10, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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Once again, Deepak Chopra proved himself simultaneously (1) an astute money making guru and (2) a complete pinhead regarding science and how the world works (whether according to science or truly) on Larry King Live. Catch it at 9:00p, see for yourself. Friggin' embarassing he is.
For those keeping a list - perhaps, Largo, Jan - you can now add Hawkins and Mlodinow as (causal) determinists, mechanists, who have manned up, taken the sharp end, led, and come public. Still waiting for the other girly scientists, engineers and technologists out there to come forth, they know who they are.
Also, very childesque treatment of "free will" too, always the perrenial accompaniment to cause n effect, mechanistic mechanics, etc. in public discourse - worth watching for that. Or maybe not.
Peace out.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 10, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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FINALLY, the atheists have their own billboard.
And right smack in the middle of the Bible Belt, Oklahoma!
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go-B
climber
Jude:24
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Sep 12, 2010 - 01:38am PT
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"Life without God is like an unsharpened pencil - it has no point."
-author unknown
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Sep 12, 2010 - 04:59am PT
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Like the primevel Big Bang, Stephen Hawking has created a blast out of nothing. Surely his publisher is ecstatic.
In his latest book, our tiny Earth's master of the universe says, "Because there are laws such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself out of nothing. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going."
A revolutionary statement? Hardly. It's not original, it's not definite, and even if absolute it would be no threat to confirmed faith.
Mr Hawking may have forsaken the tentative, conditional speech of his middle years for a more absolute dialectic opinion...but in his well known book, A Brief History of Time, he held essentialy the same views. He just wasn't bold enough to reference God by name.
Others have held like opinion and written or spoken similar words. Is his position reasonable? I think it's reasonable...It is a reasonable analysis and interpretation from INCOMPLETE evidence. However, there is surely more evidence to be discovered and other explanations that have yet to be examined and scrutinized.
Mr Hawking doesn't deserve excess credit for uttering old concepts...neither should anyone assume he has special authority to expound on or detemine, for us, the existence of God. Similarly, individuals who feel that proven scientific evidence or claims must be false or their whole belief system will crumble do not have true faith.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 12, 2010 - 11:00am PT
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go-B -- "Their is only one ..."
Actually the spelling is correct. The wrong word was used and it really doesn't matter except to an envious snake like you pate.
You're just a loser, leg humper and stupid stalker to feed your out of control huge ego. Your posts have really nothing to do with the actual subject matter. They are really all about YOU!
An envious snake and attention whore to the extreme.
Your constant incessant need to post stupid retarded attacks everywhere on this forum show your out of control false pride.
This reflects your inner being as the true worthless piece of sh'it you really are with no life.
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go-B
climber
Psalm 34:8
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
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The spelling is correct if you personalize your faith!
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jstan
climber
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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Criticizing Hawking for not having complete data acts only to trivialize. For my own part I have seen no evidence that any god has ever done something on earth. Does this prove the negative that no god exists? Of course not. But the absence of any objective data means the question has no practical value on earth.
Now people who follow some train of thought allowing them to do more "good" for others while they are here than they might otherwise do, is good. But that good has no bearing on the correctness of what ever train of thought they are following.
Hawking would, I think, have been more effective had he explained his thought more completely, and had left the conclusion to the reader. There is evidence neither for the existence of a god or the nonexistence. And we are in the process of discovering physical models that now can fully explain the creation of the universe. No god needed. Hawking might have then explained Occam's Razor, advice which has successfully guided us for a very long time. When constructing a model to explain physical phenomena, any model that needs to posit the existence of something a competing explanation does not require - is probably not the correct explanation.
We don't need a god to exist to create the universe so the existence of a god is, once more, irrelevant.
Do I argue believers should all cease to believe? No.
I advance only this. The good you do on earth does prove that you exist.
Your existence is actually relevant in the real world and is provable.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 12, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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^^^
Well said! Really should be the end of the thread...
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Sep 12, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 12, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
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re: (1) reason (2) reasonable vs. unreasonable (3) "proving" God
OMG. This thread hasn't advanced any. Naive, shallow, as ever.
Here's theology #999: They say the continents of the world were made by a sword. They say the old Gods dipped a cold blade into the endless water and when they pulled it out, seven perfect drops fell back into the water. Those drops became the continents of Earth.
Now some say that theology #999 CANNOT be "proved" (in other words, shown by argument) to be fictitious or at best metaphorical or mythological. These people are mistaken.
Likewise, it IS "reasonably" shown (proved) or "reasonably" argued that gods and theologies (esp those of the ancient Mediterrean or ancient Mesopotamia) were fictitious.
Stop surrendering your reason in order to be the nice guy who doesn't hurt peoples' feelings. We pay an enormous cost for surrendering our reason. This cost is paid long into the future, across generations, and it is paid across cultures everywhere.
.....
21st Century Vantage Point BABA says...
(1) Challenge yourselves: Distinguish between (a) mathematically "proving" something and (b) reasonably "proving" something.
(2) Don't fiddle - in other words, don't let the pursuit of the mathematical proof (100.00000%) get in the way of the reasonable proof (95-99.9%) - while America, Rome to Afghanistan and the world burn.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Sep 12, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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Pate = High Fructose Corn Spirit
Just saying.
SF
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 12, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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A post to the naive irreligious people...
Stop falling for the traditional trappings of yesterday's religions and theologies. They set you up with them, you take the bait, you all practically trip over each other in a rush to spring them.
Here it is straight up- You don't have to mathematically prove it. You only have to reasonably prove it. Take into account, take into your thinking, the human factor (to which a great body of evidence applies). Do that and, on that basis, Aphrodite and Zeus (uh, throw in Poseidon, too) are "reasonably" shown (proved) to be fictitious, otherwise mythic. Agree? (Hope so, otherwise you're a joker or 21st century nutjob.) If you agree with this "starter" step, then extend to God Jehovah / God Jesus. Voila. Done.
Stop shooting (a) yourself and (b) your own team (of like-minded "freesprites") in the foot by siding with the religious who say it cannot be shown (proven) or argued. When you do this, they love it, they eat it up. -Unless your goal is actually to endlessly argue this archaic superstition. -Which for some apparently it is.
Marduk is "reasonably" shown (proved) to be fictitious. By the same lines, so is the God of Moses (aka the God of Abraham aka Jehovah aka God Jesus).
It's time "God" was relegated at best to a simple personification of fate or destiny or history (cf: Grim Reaper re: death) or as a synonym for Mother Nature. -e.g., "I thank God everyday I wasn't born in Afghanistan." "There but for the grace of the Gods go I."
.....
My suggestion to the supernaturalists who suckle the teat of the Abrahamic super-religion: Strive for some maturity of thought (a) on this thread, (b) in regard to those natural forces of physics and chemistry and on up to ecology, environment and weather that control, shape, leverage our lives. Quit embracing the same ol' horse n buggy if not roman chariot theology that your animal-skinned forebears did. Take some pride in updating your mental software.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 12, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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"naive irreligious people"
High fruit loop..."judge ye not..."
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Sep 12, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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Just checked back in after months.... no improvement on this thread yet. But the humor value has increased slightly:
HFCS says: "Strive for some maturity (a) on this thread...."
HA, HA, HAAAAAAAAAAA
HA
HAAAAA
Coming from the most immature nutjob on the taco, that's rich!!!!
HA!
Well, wait, maybe the honor should go to Pate.... I'm torn... it's a real toss-up. Oh well, back to your regular programming.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 12, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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You also called Carl Sagan a nutjob once upon a time, so I'll be headed to bed tonight honored by your description of me.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 12, 2010 - 11:41pm PT
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jstan
climber
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Sep 12, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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I'll be so bold/naive as to take Fructose on.
I'm not talking to the believers. They are going to do what they do. As shall I.
I am trying to talk to those who question. So that our reasoning is as solid as possible.
If I say it is a fact there is no god, I can be challenged successfully. It is not possible to prove a negative. This is the weakest position one can take, not the strongest.
If I say there is no data showing a god, any god, has ever done anything on earth, when challenged I merely ask for the data. There is none. It places the burden of proof on the ascerting party. The burden of proof will be dropped
When dealing with superstition providing an opportunity for people to reinforce their beliefs through argument strengthens those beliefs.
It is a win when scriptures reappear. They were the only reinforcement available.
Pavlov.
You would have us make grand claims, equivalent to those that adroit children are able discount when being addressed by cape wearers. This is strength?
We have been so abused in this country we no longer are able to distinguish the difference between strength and the perception of strength. Even persons at the highest levels have had massive failures on this account.
They are not one and the same.
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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Sep 13, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196
Is Believing In God Evolutionarily Advantageous?
Jesse Bering's mother died of cancer on a Sunday, in her own bed, at 9 o'clock at night. Bering and his siblings closed her door and went downstairs, hoping they might somehow get some sleep.
It was a long, hard night, but around 7 a.m., something happened: The wind chimes outside his mother's window started to chime.
Bering remembers waking to the tinkle of these bells, a small but distinct sound in an otherwise silent house. And he remembers thinking that those bells carried a very specific message.
"It seemed to me ... that she was somehow telling us that she had made it to the other side. You know, cleared customs in heaven," Bering says.
The thought surprised him. Bering was a confirmed atheist. He did not believe in any kind of supernatural anything. He prided himself on being a scientist, a psychologist who believed only in the measurable material world. But, he says, he simply couldn't help himself.
"My mind went there. It leapt there," Bering says. "And from a psychological perspective, this was really interesting to me. Because I didn't believe it on the one hand, but on the other hand I experienced it."
Why is it, Bering wondered, that even a determined skeptic could not stop himself from perceiving the supernatural? It really bothered him.
It was a very good question, he decided, to take up in his lab.
God, Through The Lens Of Evolution
For decades, the intellectual descendants of Darwin have pored over ancient bones and bits of fossils, trying to piece together how fish evolved into man, theorizing about the evolutionary advantage conferred by each physical change. And over the past 10 years, a small group of academics have begun to look at religion in the same way: they've started to look at God and the supernatural through the lens of evolution.
Whether it's a dead ancestor or God, whatever supernatural agent it is, if you think they're watching you, your behavior is going to be affected.
Jesse Bering, psychologist, Queens University, Belfast
In the history of the world, every culture in every location at every point in time has developed some supernatural belief system. And when a human behavior is so universal, scientists often argue that it must be an evolutionary adaptation along the lines of standing upright. That is, something so helpful that the people who had it thrived, and the people who didn't slowly died out until we were all left with the trait. But what could be the evolutionary advantage of believing in God?
Bering is one of the academics who are trying to figure that out. In the years since his mother's death, Bering has done experiments in his lab at Queens University, Belfast, in an attempt to understand how belief in the supernatural might have conferred some advantage and made us into the species we are today.
In one experiment, children between the ages of 5 and 9 were shown to a room and told to throw a Velcro ball at a Velcro dartboard. They were told that if they were able to hit the bull's-eye, they'd get a special prize. But this particular game had an unusual set of rules: The children were told that they had to throw from behind, they weren't allowed to throw the ball while facing the dartboard, and they had to use their nondominant hand — rules that basically made it impossible for any of the children to win the game unless they cheated.
The children in the study were divided into three groups. The first group was left alone and told to play the game as best they could. The second were told the same, with one difference — the children in the second group were told that there was someone special who was going to watch them. The experimenters showed the kids a picture of a very pretty woman — a character that Bering had made up whose name was Princess Alice.
Princess Alice, the kids were told, had a magical power: Alice could make herself invisible. Then the children were shown a chair and were told that Alice was sitting in the chair and that Alice would watch them play the game after the researcher left. The third group of kids was told to play the game, but the researcher sat with them and simply never left the room at all.
The question that Bering sought to answer was this: Which group of children was least likely to cheat?
The children in the first group — the completely unsupervised kids — by far cheated the most. But what was surprising was the behavior of the second group.
The children who were under the impression that Princess Alice was in the room with them were just as likely to refrain from cheating as those children who were actually in the room with a physical real-life human being. A similar study Bering did with adults showed the same thing — that they were dramatically less likely to cheat when they thought they were being observed by a supernatural presence.
Deities From Around The World
A Change In Behavior
Bering has a credo, a truth he says he's learned after years of studying this stuff.
"I've always said that I don't believe in God, but I don't really believe in atheists either," Bering says. "Everybody experiences the illusion that God — or some type of supernatural agent — is watching them or is concerned about what they do in their sort of private everyday moral lives."
These supernatural agents, Bering adds, might have very different names. What some call God, others call Karma. There are literally thousands of names, but according to Bering they all have the same effect.
"Whether it's a dead ancestor or God, whatever supernatural agent it is, if you think they're watching you, your behavior is going to be affected," he says.
In fact, Bering says that believing that supernatural beings are watching you is so basic to being human that even committed atheists regularly have moments where their minds turn in a supernatural direction, as his did in the wake of his mother's death.
"They experience it but they reject it," Bering says. "Sort of override or stomp on their immediate intuition. But that's not to say that they don't experience it. We all have the same basic brain. And our brains have evolved to work in a particular way."
Through the lens of evolution, a belief in God serves a very important purpose: Religious belief set us on the path to modern life by stopping cheaters and promoting the social good.
Why would the human brain have evolved to work in that way?
For Bering, and some of his friends, the answer to that question has everything to do with what he discovered in his lab — the way the kids and adults stopped cheating as soon as they thought a supernatural being might be watching them. Through the lens of evolution then, a belief in God serves a very important purpose: Religious belief set us on the path to modern life by stopping cheaters and promoting the social good.
God And Social Cooperation
Dominic Johnson is a professor at the University of Edinburgh in the United Kingdom and another one of the leaders in this field. And to Johnson, before you can understand the role religion and the supernatural might have played in making us the people we are today, you really have to appreciate just how improbable our modern lives are.
Today we live in a world where perfect strangers are incredibly nice to each other on a regular basis. All day long, strangers open doors for each other, repair each other's bodies and cars and washing machines. They swap money for food and food for money. In short: they cooperate.
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This cooperation makes all kinds of things possible, of course. Because we can cooperate, we can build sophisticated machines and create whole cities — communities that require huge amounts of coordination. We can do things that no individual or small group could do.
The question is: How did we get to be so cooperative? For academics like Johnson, this is a profound puzzle.
"Explaining cooperation is a huge cottage industry," Johnson says. "It dominates the pages of top journals in science and economics and psychology. You would think that it was very simple, but in fact from a scientific academic point of view, it just often doesn't make sense."
It doesn't make sense because there's often tension between the interests of the group and the interests of the individual. Johnson gives an example. Recently he was on the subway in New York and as he was going through the turnstile a little child ran in with him and got through the barrier. He got onto the subway without ever paying.
Everywhere you look around the world, you find examples of people altering their behavior because of concerns for supernatural consequences of their actions. They don't do things that they consider bad because they think they'll be punished for it.
Dominic Johnson, professor, University of Edinburgh
"Now we only have the Metro if everyone pays," Johnson says. "But there's an advantage for everyone if they don't have to pay themselves."
And what's true of the subway is true of everything.
Why fight in a war, risk your own death, if someone else will fight it for you? Why pay taxes? Why reduce your carbon footprint?
These all have clear costs, and from an individual perspective, you and your offspring are much more likely to thrive if you don't get killed in a war or pay your taxes — if you behave like the child in the subway.
The problem is that even a relatively small number of people who choose to behave like the child can affect the functioning of the whole.
"Even a few cheats undermine cooperation," Johnson says, because once people realize that they are paying for the same thing others are enjoying free, they become less willing to cooperate.
Punishment And Deterrents: Enforcing God's Law
Today, if you cheat — if you decide to pass on paying Uncle Sam or if you steal a car — there are systems in place that will track you down and punish you. And this threat of punishment keeps you on the straight and narrow. But imagine if you lived hundreds of thousands of years ago.
"We know that punishment is very effective at promoting cooperation," Johnson says. "The problem is: Who punished in the past before we had police and courts and law and government? There wasn't anyone formally to carry out the punishment"
In those early human communities when someone did something wrong, someone else in the small human group would have to punish them. But as Johnson points out, punishing itself is often dangerous because the person being punished probably won't like it.
"That person has a family; that person has a memory and is going to develop a grudge," Johnson says. "So there are going to be potentially quite disruptive consequences of people taking the law into their own hands."
On the other hand, Johnson says, if there are Gods or a God who must be obeyed, these strains are reduced. After all, the punisher isn't a vigilante; he's simply enforcing God's law.
"You have a very nice situation," Johnson says. "There are no reprisals against punishers. And the other nice thing about supernatural agents is that they are often omniscient and omnipresent."
If God is everywhere and sees everything, people curb their selfish impulses even when there's no one around. Because with God, there is no escape. "God knows what you did," Johnson says, "and God is going to punish you for it and that's an incredibly powerful deterrent. If you do it again, he's going to know and he is going to tally up your good deals and bad deeds and you will suffer the consequences for it either in this life or in an afterlife."
Differing Views
So the argument goes that as our human ancestors spread around the world in bands, keeping together for food and protection, groups with a religious belief system survived better because they worked better together.
We are their descendants. And Johnson says their belief in the supernatural is still very much with us.
"Everywhere you look around the world, you find examples of people altering their behavior because of concerns for supernatural consequences of their actions. They don't do things that they consider bad because they think they'll be punished for it."
Of course there are plenty of criticisms of these ideas. For example one premise of this argument is that religious belief is beneficial because it helped us to cooperate. But a small group of academics argue that religious beliefs have ultimately been more harmful than helpful, because those religious beliefs inspire people to go to war.
And then there are the people who say that cooperation doesn't come from God — that cooperation evolved from our need to take care of family or show potential mates that we were a good choice. The theories are endless.
Unfortunately it's not possible now to rewind the movie, so to speak, and see what actually happened. So these speculations will remain just that: speculations.
As unknowable — ultimately — as God himself.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 13, 2010 - 02:42am PT
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As I've said many times, the single biggest problem arises when people try and approach the "God" subject as though it were another math equation, and when this tact bears no fruit, or the wrong fruit, they blame the subject and never once question that just maybe, quantitative efforts to bottle the divine are themselves the problem. Second problem is the illusion that the measurements of anything lay outside of their own minds. The idea that measurements exist outside of mind is itself not an example of the idea, but is simply more mind stuff. Astonishingly, this is lost on many who simply fire back with - that's right, more ideas (mind stuff), meticulously phrased.
Ain't it something . . .
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 13, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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17 is a unitless number. "God" is a indefinitive word.
Are we talking 17 miles or 17 gallons or 17 volts? It matters. Are we talking Poseidon (ancient Egypt) or Jehovah (ancient Hebrew) or Diacrates (hypothetical Intelligence behind everything that Einstein, e.g., speculated about as a possibility)? It matters.
jstan wrote-
"If I say it is a fact there is no god, I can be challenged successfully. It is not possible to prove a negative. This is the weakest position one can take, not the strongest."
Compare:
(a) There never was a Quetzalcoatl (feather serpent God of Central America), I CANNOT be challenged successfully regarding this claim. -Not on "reasonable" grounds.
(b) There never were Mesopotamian Gods (e.g., Ishtar, Jehovah, Marduk) any more than Mediterranean Gods (e.g., Apollo, Artemis), I CANNOT be challenged successfully regarding this claim. -Not on "reasonable" grounds.
(c) If I say it is a fact to 100.0% certainty there never was a Diacrates, I COULD be challenged successfully. But who is saying that? Nobody.
Nine times out of ten, talk of "God" on this thread has to do with Jehovah (God of Abraham) - the specific Guy in the Sky who ordered Aaron to tell Moses to have the people stone to death the Sabbath Breaker. (Num 15)
Granted, this is accounting of facts, experience, education, opinion, attitude, decision-making, judgement, reasoning, all the above. It's time we had a genre of belief or branch of belief - modern, innovative, reasonable, science informed, lifeguidance minded whose focus was better practices in the practice of living - one that preserved the best traditional belief systems and their institutions have to offer (e.g., comfort, solidarity, in hard times, celebration of life through ritual, etc) but "discontinued" their absurdities. I know changes are underway, sometimes it just seems so inefficient.
.....
Wes, videos like that do make me wonder things - like where our species is headed long term, if it has any durable future.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 13, 2010 - 03:00pm PT
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"where our species is headed long term, if it has any durable future."
Given enough time all specie eventually become extinct. You have your answer. It is just a matter of our behaving intelligently and extending our time here.
What we are seeing locally here in the US is an extremum.
When a society is headed downward, some people are attracted by the proposition of being the "first" to hit bottom. Particularly when they have never before experienced real and long term privation.
High unemployment may become a fixture in the US for the foreseeable future. Decades ago we ceased making many of the investments required to keep us at the leading edge of technology and educating our people so as to make it happen. Almost everything we do now has become a commodity. If you make a commodity you must compete. The cost of American labor has become unsustainable and must move down closer to the global mean.
A Spanish firm is going to build a solar facility for SCE.
Chinese firms have a good chance of building rapid rail in California. If the winner is not Chinese it will be French or German.
German firms are becoming very important in solar power.
On all of these there will, of course, be extended discussion as to domestic content. ie. grunt labor probably
More than a few young Californians may, in time, come to think their future involves jumping off El Cap.
Here ST is, arguably, at the leading edge.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 13, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Hashbro- Thanks for the refresher in EOG (evolution of god) theories, in your piece the emphasis having to do with cheating.
Also of interest, EOH (evolution of heaven) theories and their role of motivating us (e.g., even into our 50s, 60s and beyond) when otherwise, for instance, many would feel they have had enough. Together they make for a powerfully appealing narrative to serve (a) as mental software and (b) basis for institutions of life support (e.g., religions) - to get H. sapiens through. Through the day. Through their reproductive years. Through their entire course of life.
A "science" of God, religion and belief is emerging tho slowly. For an instance of this, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
I wonder if Andy Thomson would follow me up Crescent Arch. I should invite him, he'd be fun.
.....
jstan- Nicely put.
It is interesting to hear political candidates and parties in these pre-election days blame each other for lame economic numbers and loss of jobs. -When by and large it has nothing whatsoever to do with partisan sides or shenanigans and everything to do with saturated resources (e.g., land and fossil fuels), over-population, a flatter global playing field, end of drawdown (economic) growth. Why pay out $30-100k to an American engineer when you can pay out $3-10k to an Indian engineer for the same quality work? America will get used to the new rules in the 21st century - really it's got no choice - all the while our political leaders will go on per usual and blame the other side for it. What a show and Joe Q Public eats it up. See ya at the Tea Party.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 13, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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Fructose being called a NutJob?
I thought Pate had that one sown up.
Me, I have been called a Devil and a Communist. (by Bluering The Birther)
I like the company I am in.
And as W.C. Fields said, I would never want to be a member of a group that
would want me as a member of that group.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 13, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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Well said! Really should be the end of the thread...
haven't you heard, skept? the goal is to surpass "why are those republicans so wrong on everything" in time for the holidays. i think a special award should go to the person who posts "this is my last post" the most number of times.
scarface, we've been over that territory before. the suspicion is rampant that pate and HFCS are the same poster, trolling each other, as it were. each has denied it vehemently, and yet each seems to reserve the kind of tenderness for "each other" which ordinarily you'd see in only a trolling individual on ST. their claim of being separate would be much more credible is they'd get at each other's throats once in awhile.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 13, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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Pate, love ya, brah.
Truth is, the suspicion is "rampant" only in your own conspiracy-seeking, misinformation-spewing, paranormal-dwelling, crazy-quilted thinking.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 13, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
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that's post number three for that photo of huffcuss and his granddaughter. don't you have some photos of other family activities?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 13, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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the goal is to surpass "why are those republicans so wrong on everything" in time for the holidays
Sorry, I was posting drunk when I wrote that...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sep 14, 2010 - 01:13am PT
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Fructose-
Excellent video about the brain's predisposition to religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
Thanks!
What I found equally interesting was how that information was interpreted to fit the belief system of the atheist speaker. He was completely unable to see that his prior atheistic belief system colored his interpretation of religion. While some religions have been deliberately created by people for their own benefit, it is really being paranoid to say that is always the case.
One can just as easily say that because the brain is predisposed to religion, religions naturally evolved systems of belief which were extremely beneficial in helping the majority of people on this planet survive difficult lives. Thus religion has been of great benefit to humankind.
I would remind the smug atheists at those conferences that they do not represent the majority of people on this planet, and no doubt would feel differently if they did not live in educated middle class comfort provided by a society founded on religious idealism. They are as much a product of their environment, in this case fortuitous circumstances, as the exploited religious peasant in a third world society is, or even a poor American.
And none of the talk by either atheists or religionists really tells us if there is a God or not, nor does it deal with what are the causes of the extraordinary phenomena that some people experience that do not fit into either the religious or atheist model of reality.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 14, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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The problem is that even a relatively small number of people who choose to behave like the child can affect the functioning of the whole.
Seems we may have reached critical mass on that score.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 16, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Sep 17, 2010 - 01:33am PT
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We were gods
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go-B
climber
Psalm 34:8
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Sep 17, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
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Psalm 118:8, It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in man!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 17, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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From the Satanic bible:
3. For I stand forth to challenge the wisdom of the world; to interrogate the "laws" of
man and of "God"!
I have lots of these...
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Sep 19, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
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Mark 8:36, For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul? 37 For what can a man give in return for his soul? 38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
I've lost track...
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Sep 20, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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Dalai Lama posted on FaceBook today:
As long as we observe love for others and respect for their rights and dignity in our daily lives, then whether we are learned or unlearned, whether we believe in the Buddha or God, follow some religion or none at all, as long as we have compassion for others and conduct ourselves with restraint out of a sense of responsibility, there is no doubt we will be happy.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Sep 20, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Psalm 118:8, It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in man!
go-B, why should I believe anything that the pope, you, or any other person who supports a belief in God, says, since you are all corruptible men who are not to be trusted?
And the funny thing is that those words were written by man.
Dave
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 20, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
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the dalai lama is a pushover, pushed out of tibet, standing for passivity and compassion in a world where the passive and compassionate will alway be taken advantage of by a cynical, aggressive and sinister power elite. his failure to articulate that, and his lack of moral critique of that elite, remarkably like that of the other "holiness" we are subjected to, makes him not only incredible but suspect in the bolstering of that elite.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
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Dave- "And the funny thing is those words were written by man."
Written by men with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit(God)!
"Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)"
I wonder what inspired/caused JDF to ask/post this question four years ago(Sept. 30th)? I now believe he was serious...deadly serious. NOT trolling.
I believe JDF was seriously searching for meaning, something to hope in/for, something to cling to, believe in and help him through his suffering. What did we(collectively)share with him...Hope? Or was it the Dr. Kevorkian(Dr. Death)answer to terminate his illness/end the pain that is being pushed here, that finally won him over..."(Serious Question?)".
If so, congratulations...you succeeded!
And perhaps we failed!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Sep 20, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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Trip, that's despicable. We all know guilt is your faith's stock in trade, but man, that's low even by those standards.
Here's some interesting data:
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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cintune- "that's despicable..."
What is dispicable is/was the post by one of you God haters blaming Christians for Dr. Kevorkians imprisonment! Dr. Death is the dispacable and ultimate issue of godless reasoning.
Guilt?
Ultimately, it was JDF's "choice", and none of us should carry any "guilt" over his choice.
But yes, guilty we all are of sin. Believe what you will.
Cintune, I was simply saying that perhaps you were successful in convincing JDF of that, according to the non-believers, there is no God. If he was seriously considering such. There is so much hate spewed here against those of faith...it is pathetic.
We offered(i didn't start posting untel the last 10 months)hope in a God that would have given him peace.
He asked a simple question...you gave him your conclusions.
JDF came to the final conclusions. His choice.
edit: I think about JDF everytime i come to this thread, but was thinking about the recent post(maybe on another S/T thread)about Dr. Death!
Once again, JDF initiated this thread with the possible hope of believing in God. Of course we, or perhaps many of us if not all, considered it somewhat of a troll. I am as "guilty' as anyone in not taking him serious. I wish I would have e-mailed him or something.
Many of you "non-believers" offered him lots of support ie, going climbing at Stony Point etc.
We all have our own beliefs, there just seems to be an incredible amount of hate and derision of "believers" here...very depressing. And not what JDF asked. Go back to his first couple of posts. He was sincerely searching. You should have started your own thread "Why DON'T so many..."
Just my opinion. I'll live with it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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"What is dispacable is/was the post by one of you God haters blaming Christians for Dr. Kevorkians imprisonment! "
I believe he's referring to me. -Which would be a mis-reading of what I said. No surprise there.
Cintune- Excellent graphic. Thought-provoking. It's been a long day, am I just not seeing China in there?
.....
"God-hater" - no. Apollo and Jehovah and Marduk dejector, rejector, repealer, recaller, yes. Reminder: I believe in certain "Gods of Deification" as useful symbols, tools, utilities. Big diff. Big. (Great forces or powers deified, personified, by man for purposes of metaphor use, mythology or story telling - but any more elaboration there is for another day.) - Astrophes and Hypercrates to name two - both reflections and representations of how the world works in accordance with science, science edu and the Scientific Story. Granted, it's a more advanced "technical" theology - those raised and imprinted on ol' time "simplified traditional" theistics or theology aren't expected to get it or take to it so why try.
If he repeals, he "hates". If he discontinues, he "hates". If he rejects, he "hates". Is that it? More than a few of us now are on to the "attack words" and "talking points" and "victimization" language and passive aggressive strategies of the evangelical fundamentalists of whatever Abrahamic religion as they fight their final battles on the losing side of history.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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If we follow Tony's advice we would have the Dalai Lama and a population of 6 million making a suicidal last stand against 1.3 billion. Good plan Tony!
If you knew your history, our government already sponsored that in collusion with the Dalai Lama's brother. Lots of good Tibetan Khampa guerillas got killed, but no Americans. We did get one or two mail bags of intelligence in one raid. We probably spent a million dollars for each letter and managed to poison the relationship between Tibetans and Chinese for at least two generations. Another excellent plan, Tony!
Of course we then backtracked on our policy and while the last of the Tibetan guerillas were fleeing across Nepal to safety in India on horseback, they were gunned down from Nepalese helicopters originating in the United States and their bloody clothes put on display in tents in the public park in downtown Kathmandu as a lesson in the efficacy of violent resistance. Another good plan no doubt.
As for the Dalai Lama supporting Tibet's elite, they were the backbone of the Tibetan guerillas whose work you advocated. Now you're suggesting he turn on them? Or perhaps he already has, by advocating democracy and setting up a Tibetan parliament in exile?
Or perhaps you're against all the teachers and social workers who are Tibetan Buddhist monks and nuns, giving Tibetan refugee children a free education in their own culture in India, a country which can not provide free schooling for all its own citizens even. Better they grow up illiterate I suppose, than be taught by elites who work for free. Another great plan!
Once again, it's easy to be negative and criticize, but a lot harder to come up with constructive alternatives, isn't it Tony?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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tony , you've outdone yourself...again
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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Jonnnyyyzzz!
Thanks for the link "Privileged Planet" i watched all 12 parts...excellent, informative, and thought provoking.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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High- "I believe he is referring to me. -Which would be a miss-reading of what I said. No surprise there."
High- "It is America, the land of the free after all. And if, because of your beliefs, you don't gang up with others of like mindedness to try to legislate- to try to (a)persecute gays, (b)jail the Dr. Kevorkians, (c)limit stem cell research, (d)limit pro-choice people in their choices, (e)teach the bible in public school, etc.- all the better.
So, what you are implying is, according to (b), "all the better" to not hold the Dr. Kevorkians responsible for their actions. I call it murder.
That is "despicable" in my opinion, and for that matter, according to the Hippocratic Oath, etc. And what i was alluding to above.
"No surprise" whatsoever.
It is no surprise to me that the prophecy of "The Holy Bible" is coming true in these days, in that:
"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil.
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness." Isiah 5:20
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 20, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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Trip7!
You are really pissing me off now with your talk calling Dr. Kevorkian guilty
of "murder".
You ignorant slut.
Kevorkian had more human compassion in his little finger than you ever will.
He did NOT "kill" anyone.
Those miserable, terminal, suffering human beings ASKED him to become involved.
THEY made the decision that THEY did NOT want to suffer any more.
Kevorkian KNEW he would be arrested and spend years in prison.
I ADMIRE the courage and guts he had to face that consequence and STILL
decide to help one more TERMINAL, SUFFERING, human being end their life.
I ADMIRE men with his compassion. You should too.
Don't you dare shoot your ignorant, 13th century, mouth off like that.
YOU ought to be ashamed of yourself
Oh, by the way. Don't lump me in with the "god haters".
You can't hate what does not exist.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 20, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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I don't believe in a God of the past, but I could conceive of a being with more-or less God-like qualities coming into existence in the future. I'm talking about a being with qualities like immortality, omniscience, and omnipotence. I'm pessimistic it will come from the human line, although, in principle, it could.
It's certainly not inconceiveable that virtual immortality (within the time-frame of our galaxy or Universe) could be achieved by a merging of the human mind with technology. It's also not hard to envision all of those minds linked together. That would cover the 'omniscient' part. Let's see, we still have 'omnipotent' to go. Omnipotent's always a tough one, because there's always some joker in the crowd asking thing likes "can You create an object so heavy You can't pick up?". Since it's hard to get everybody on the same page when it comes to defining 'omnipotent', let's such say, our God's is successful on 99% of the 'all-powerful' questions anyone could conceive of.
Anyhow, if it doesn't happen on this planet, there are likely billions of other planets with life where such an evolution might take place. In fact, like evolution, where millions of lineages die out, I suspect that only a very few will survive to evolve these God-like qualities.
So don't hate evolution - embrace it. Don't be a roadblock to God's First Coming.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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Norton.
They were depressed. As an O.T. I have worked with the terminally ill. I worked at Midway Hospital in Los Angeles, in conjunction with Ceder Sinai in L. A., it was the leading care provider for the Aides epidemic of the 80's and 90's and also with the terminally ill cancer patients, etc. I worked there for several years, and have held dieing people in my arms and have grieved with their loved ones on dozens of occasions. They were kept "comfortable", that was the primary focus at that point. There suffering was equivelent and surpassed the suffering of the various patients of Dr. Death. They have sufficient pain meds. that is not the issue. It is self worth, depression and no longer willing to live.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 20, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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the united states and china have been in bed together ever since george bush sr. was ambassador over there. the student freedom movement in china made the mistake of thinking it could turn its dictatorial government around at tian an men and that the freedom-loving, communism-hating "leader of the free world" would stand with them. big miscalculation.
if the united states wanted to put pressure on china, it could have done so then and any time since then. but they're in bed together. maybe klimmer has it right, it's all being dictated by aliens from an ark on the moon. china owns our markets, siphons the money out of our wallets every time we shop. want to pressure the sumbitches? shut 'em out from our markets. easy as pie. why doesn't it happen? the politics goes a little deeper than you calculate, jan. the guerilla efforts were just a charade. it made us look "good", doing what we're supposed to do, like when we were trying to ferret bin laden out of caves. believe me, if this government really wanted to do either of those things, it would've been a piece of cake. you can't hide from the technology and the surveillance. every country in the world knows that, but you on your marine base apparently don't.
don't expect to hear your dalai lama talk about any of these things. he knows not to rankle people who have the real power in ways that would embarrass them. at such times he shifts into holy gear and gives us platitudes to live by. he's almost as good at that as jimmy carter. any day now, the meek will inherit the earth, and they'll all be wearing aloha shirts.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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Norton/Fans of Dr. Death!
BTW & FWIW.
I was diagnosed by Kaiser as having a "TERMINAL" illness and believe me i "SUFFERED" for over four(4)years with a hideously painful peripheral nerve disease/diagnosis that i have described elsewhere on the Taco. Can't say that I didn't consider/pray for death because I did. I am very happy that there is NO Dr. Death available for such circumstances.
Suffering is a terrible thing...
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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We have more mercy for our pets than we do for ourselves. We've got over 6 billion people on the planet. What matter if a few of them want to end their suffering when they've been diagnosed with a terminal, excruciatingly painful condition. Perhaps they don't want to saddle their families with the astronomical costs that will be incurred just to give them an extra month of pain.
If you think it's immoral, that's your own choice. Don't inflict your religious views on others. Are you afraid there's going to be a mad rush to be euthanized? Just like they're afraid everyone's going to go gay if marriage is finally realized to be a civil right?
Ever hear of locked-in syndrome? How about Huntington's Chorea? Just a tiny sample of terrible things that can't be cured and I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Not giving them a chance to shorten their suffering is cruel beyond words.
I don't think a compassionate god would inflict that kind of suffering on his children, do you?
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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When I lived in India I had an apt right down the road from the Dalai Lama in the middle of little Tibet.
I agree with everything Tony Bird says. I lived there 7 months and and got to know my neighbors very well. I have 1000 more photos to prove it. The good the bad & the ugly.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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eeyonkee, what about Jesus, son of man and son of God?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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Skeptic- "Don't inflict...are you afraid..."
I'm not inflicting anyone. I have a right to voice my opinion and beliefs, just as you have, and vote if I so choose. And comment, etc.
.
"Don't inflict..." what a joke.
And I have no fear...period.
I am a licensed and registered occupational therapist(OTR/L). We are trained to diagnose, establish treatment plans, and treat such diagnosis as Huntington's Chorea and locked in syndrome and various other progressive neurological/degenerative disorders/diseases. How do you think I felt when I was diagnosed with one in 2003?
edit: BTW, I can understand your points of view. someday, sooner or later, you will also.
a "compassionate god" didn't inflict it upon mankind. death and disease came with the fall of mankind/sin. things you don';t believe, nor have the capacity to understand since you are a part of that very fallen nature. it requires a 'relationship' with the Creator. He will reveal Himself to anyone who asks...something i doubt you will ever do. so i have no time to waste on such futile endeavors(you)...later!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 01:49am PT
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Skeptic!
i just took a quick look/scan of you 170 or so posts. something like 98% or more are related to the religion/God/political etc. threads.
Hmmmmnnnn.
I can see how some individuals have an agenda to further political and anti-god views, but this is a climbing/climbers thread, I am sure you have more to offer.
BTW, I for one am fully in favor of ending this thread. Giving the front page and the thread more relative topics. Probably why I rarely post here and similar threads anymore.
With all due respect to JDF, I believe he has found the answer to his question by now(as will all who have posted here when the time comes). Maybe we should let him and this thread rest in peace.
FYI, one of the last things JDF did was to delete/nuke this thread. Someone didn't respect his decision to do so, and they brought it back to life.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 21, 2010 - 02:32am PT
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i have no time to waste on such futile endeavors(you)...later!
Aww, now you've gone and hurt my fillings... Thanks for taking the time to review my posts. I guess that means I've hit a nerve.
As far as your being an OT, that's great. But here in CA at least that means you treat the hand/wrist and sometimes the elbow. Physical Therapists like myself treat the entire body including the cardiovascular, pulmonary, integumentary, musculoskeletal, and nervous systems (which is my chosen specialty). We have been lax in allowing parts of our profession to be coopted by others. But we're actively involved in taking back that which was once exclusively our domain.
While I agree that you have a right to your opinion, your beliefs, and your ability to vote as you see fit, I take great exception to the conservative agenda that is trying to steer the political process toward a christian-focused agenda and adoption of fundamental morality to interpret laws. If you want to live your life according to those principles, I fully support you. But see, there's the difference- you don't allow me the same courtesy.
You might want to rethink what you interpret as my understanding of religion. I'm pretty well read on the mainstream religions and quite a few of the more esoteric ones. I spent many years looking for god. Thought I found it a few times, but I fortunately grew out of blindly accepting what others think and learned to think for myself. I am very comfortable with my personal spirituality.
I think if you distill all of my political and religious posts down to one common message, it's that I defend personal freedom and choice where I perceive a threat from dogma and blind fundamentalism. If you happen to fall on that side of the fence, then I guess we will always be at odds. Come on over and visit some time. You might find a great weight is lifted off your shoulders and you can learn to trust your instincts as well as others'. Don't worry, I won't bite.
BTW- your math's a little off. It's more like about 50% of my posts are religious topics. Try not to exaggerate please. It takes away from your credibility.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 03:23am PT
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Skeptic.
I can tell you either no little, but most likely feigning so, in regards to Occupational Therapist, a much more comphrehensive discipline. You are limited to the physical nature of disease not the area nor depth of the neurological disorders that we are. Shoulder/elbow/wrist/and hand are in relation to the outpatient physical disorders. In patient is much more neurologically expansive in regards to OT. But who gives a sh#t about this here? And both professions have been working side by side for over 90 years or so. Not really of much interest to me since we are both well compensated and should focus more on who we are treating instead of feeling insignificant in what we have been blessed with, and, for example attempting to steal an area of focus and superior understanding/schooling ie. "upper extremity..." and just be happy with what you have(PT=backs)...I could care less. Can you, as a P.T. work in a locked psych unit? No. Do you work with the neurological retraining of individuals in the activities of daily living skills(ADL's) required by HT(head trauma), stroke, or neurological disorders that we have been discussing in order to be discharged home(rather then to a nursing home)? No. We both work with the physical aspects of such disorders. Sit to stand. Bed mobility(at least I do this one). Transfers to wheelchairs/walkers/etc. But do you(PT's)facilitate in the actual improvement of basic skills such as dressing, shaving, washing, eating etc. to eventual discharge from the hospital or nursing home when applicable to there desired residence? Surely you have sat and listened to who the burden/weight is placed upon by the M.D.'s when an individual is up for either being sent home, or to a nursing home for the rest of their life...the O.T.(us, not P.T.'s)think about living with that ultimatum. Your focus is wether or not the person can walk, period. We have the burden of preparing the person/evaluating/treating/ and discharging the patient to one or the other. Not an easy task. Plus of course, much more depending on our specific area of specialty. Blah, blah blah. But I do have utmost respect for P.T's. Even if they are attempting to weezeel their way in to our profession/and the upper extremity etc.
This is all very blase'...
As far as religion etc. goes, the burden is on the Church being right with God, not the Church trying to convince the world they are going to hell. God can deal with the pagan world with a snap of His fingers. It is about our obediance to Him. We are called to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. And to stand up for what the Bible teaches as truth. You are the ones attempting to remove thousands of years of truth, such as "Thou shalt not kill." from existence. I believe America, non believers, can expect a much heavier judgment for their non belief when the time comes.
The Church(Christians)are who God is calling to repent. And live as an example to the lost. That is my focus. Not politics, science, etc. We are the ones God is holding responsible, just like He expected the Hebrews of the Old Testament to set an example and obey. We care about(or at least should)you, and our lost family and friends, more than ourselves. But it has got away from the Church with the prosperity gospel/health & wealth gospel etc. God is calling the Church to repent(in America anyway).
I have perfect peace. I am free from bondage. Free from fear and death. You have nothing to offer me.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sep 21, 2010 - 03:26am PT
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Tony-
There were in fact a few westerners who helped the Tibetan guerillas, some who worked for our government and others who were volunteers.
I presume Tony will be among the volunteer group to take on the Chinese as soon as the Dalai Lama passes? And of course he'll send his family to live in Tibet so that they will be subject to the same retributions that the Tibetans he is encouraging to make a Masaada last stand, will be subject to?
Meanwhile, he tries to shift the argument to the U.S. China economic embrace which is something different. I agree that our current U.S. policy toward China as toward everywhere else, is dictated by the ruling rich of our country. So what else is new?
One can certainly make a case against the ruling elite of Tibet for their head in the sand attitude which left them with no allies/connections in the outside world when China invaded. The Dalai Lama was an isolated teenager during this period. However, his predecessor, the 13th Dalai Lama, had warned the monastic establishment against just this sort of reaction.
Today the Dalai Lama keeps the case of his people alive by fostering the connections and allies among people of good will that were so lacking before. Realistically that's about all he can do until China changes internally. Interestingly, Tibetan Buddhism is undergoing a renaissance in China among the young who are disillusioned by their leaders and society.
I agree completely with the Dalai Lama when he says that Tibet will only be free, when China is free, and that change will come from within, initiated by the Chinese themselves. Certainly that is how democracy has been introduced to every other East Asian country, with the exception of Japan where it was forced on the ruling classes by MacArthur after the end of WWII.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 03:50am PT
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skeptic- "50% are religious topics..."
I included the political etc topics. I saw little other than arguments about religion, politics, ethics, etc. that you gravitated to. Well over 50%, that is your choice(just look at the las two or three pages which amount to a couple of weeks. No big deal.
"gone and hurt my feelings..."
Just saying that i have no obligation to try and convince you to change YOUR beliefs. I can not do that no matter how much time i "waste" trying(only God can change your heart). We are asked by Jesus Christ/God to bring the Good News to "him who has ears to hear..."! If I where out on the street or at the beach etc. offering some free tract etc. if someone says they are not interested, I would move on to someone who is. Obviously you are WAY past that.
Why should I, or anyone else waist our time with YOU here??
Just the way it is. Live with it Bro!
edit: we are called to be "Fisher's of men." The vast majority of "men" here have no interest in recieving what Jesus offers, eternal life. And I would further venture to say, there agenda is to discourage others from recieving it. Jesus makes it very clear that God only "strives" with men for so long until He turns them over to their own lusts/bondages(drugs/porno/alchohol/more money/better looks/gambling/fame/addictions/bigger chouse/car, more-more, etc.) and disbelief. No longer makes an effort to reach them. Their hearts are so hardened that it is impossible for man, and nolonger desired by God to do so. Many are the ones of such discription that control this site with their presence and atheist "agendas".
I remember the years(4-5) that i spent in the streets working with all the lost kids and homeless of the streets of L.A. and Hollywood Ca., were they, for some reason at the ripe old age of 12, left home to become the next child star and escape their sometimes hell on earth existence. I would always buy them food and listen. Not saying much, and then just before i left them give them a simple tract that told them how much Jesus loved them. I quit counting at 1200 hundred kids and homeless. i didn't want to make it a #'s thing. But there were thousands more over the years. Some only spent a few minutes or hours with. Others days, weeks and months.
Not that i don't care about you Skeptic, but some you just let go. And maybe my own heart has become a little hardened. Nothing personal...
Peace!
BTW, In regards to "Locked In Syndrome" during my first semester(third year)of being excepted into the O.T. program at SJSU, we were required to watch and do man essay on the film "Awakenings" starring Robert dinero and robin Williams...excellent!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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Trip7 -- " .....to stand up for what the Bible teaches as truth. "Thou shalt not kill".
Then why they hypocrites?
They say animals have no soul and man can kill them and eat them.
This is not the truth.
Instead they maintain huge industrialized, mechanized slaughterhouses for "killing" animals to satisfy the tongue.
Instead they use word jugglery and false interpretations saying it really means "murder" and it's OK because we are not murdering any humans.
Pure stupidity. Even if you take this nonsense rascaldom interpretation they are murdering millions of animals every year.
It says: "Thou shalt not kill"
Such mind blowing rascaldom going on so no wonder the so called "Christians" are losing their so called stance.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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But who gives a sh#t about this here?
Well, apparently you do. A little defensive, eh? You might do well to read the APTA's Guide to Physical Therapist Practice before you spray about something you know apparently very little about. I'll let your following reply be the final word in this thread about that. I'm sure it will be very illuminating...
You are the ones attempting to remove thousands of years of truth, such as "Thou shalt not kill." from existence.
Are you a vegetarian? Do you wear leather? Do you support the death penalty for whatever crime you deem it appropriate? Do you believe that the bible is the literal word of your god?
Morality does not stem from religious upbringing or texts. It existed long before religion became organized. It's a basic instinct, not "god-given", which is shaped by our family and our society. One of the reasons we have such tension in the world between countries is that what is considered moral in one country is considered abhorrent in another. It has nothing to do with god.
I am free from bondage. Free from fear and death.
I beg to differ. Your bondage is strict adherence/obediance to that book without the freedom to question its lessons and principles. Your fear is that there is an exclusive club beyond this existence that only special people are allowed into.
You seem to think that the "end times" are upon us. Any idea when that might be? 2012 perhaps? In your lifetime? Plenty of "prophets" have claimed "the end is near" over the last couple thousand years, only to be utterly disproven. I take issue with those who profess an inevitable apocalypse because they are doing nothing to further the peace process and deter such a scenario. In fact, as I've mentioned elsewhere, Jimmy Carter has stated there are people in the gov't who are actively attempting to force a "final war" in the Middle East in an attempt to fulfill this "prophecy". Nice. Definitely the kind of people I want to spend eternity with.
If you believe that your god created everything, then you have to accept that it created evil and all of the "bad" things in this plane and is therefore capable of "uncreating" it. Pretty wacky thinking. If your god is so loving and forgiving, then why is there so much suffering in this world, especially of the pure of heart and innocent of deed? Take your homeless kids for example. If you say it's a test of faith, that's not what I call a very loving god. Your philosophy has so many holes in it, it's impossible to take seriously with any kind of critical thought.
I included the political etc topics Ok, now we're up to 65%. Still some math issues. I think your posting 2 posts to reply to my single ones say something about your prolific nature on the subject also... And while we're on the subject, you might want to consider doing a grammar check on your posts. Using words like "waist", "no" and "excepted" instead of "waste", "know" and "accepted" do little to impress the reader that you possess an advanced education. And you didn't hurt my "feelings"; I said "you hurt my fillings" That was a joke.
"Awakenings" starring Robert dinero Is that the Spanish actor? Oh, you mean De Niro! Carry on.
Yes, a good movie. A better book. All of Dr Sacks writings are excellent. But that movie is about Parkinson's disease, not Locked In. The book you want to read for that (which is also excellent) is "The Diving Bell & The Butterfly", which was dictated by a sufferer to the writer by using blinks of his eyelids for each letter, one by one. He died soon thereafter.
But don't take my rantings above as a personal attack on you. I'm sure you're a very caring person, as evidenced by the profession you've chosen and the work you've done with the homeless. That speaks volumes to your character. That's the currency I bank my life on. I just don't happen to share your views on god and thoughts that those who don't share your views are somehow condemned to a miserable end. Who's to say which view is ultimately correct? I guess we'll find out soon enough. And at least one of us will be surprised.
Ok, have at it. I'm sure it will be a convincing post...
P.S. - Here's a funny thing I just saw today! Jesus Stoned by Conservatives
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
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Skepticalmystic,
I really question why I am bothering to continue on. because 1). these very same questions have been asked, and answered over and over, on this(although part/half of it was deleted by JDF back a few months ago. 2). I don't have all the answers, pastors and theologians with doctorate degrees don't have all the answers. 3). I have already spent way to much time here as I have already explained...no "ears to hear..."
To begin, in regards to nobody gives a sh#t here. "obviously you do." i was speaking of the people who post on this site, climbers. And i doubt that any of them care("give a shit")about O.T.'s & P.T.'s quibbleing(sp) about there respective careers etc.
In regard to morality being a "basic instinct" that is purely your conclusion. I believe we were given a conscience by God. A part of being created in His own image. Knowing right and wrong, and the guilt associated with it. No other species has this aspect of conscience. And it certainly isn't conducive to the Darwinian evolution theory/survival of the fittest. To stop and give pause to...
I had a spiritual experiance/intervention of sorts, back when i was twelve that convinced me then that this was true.
I have good reasons not to share these personal experiances(sp), because they were just that...personal, and i have already done so on at least one occasion already here on the Taco. As a matter of fact, I find it repulsive, kind of like "sharing pearls with swine"...(as of late/here on this particular thread)!
When I was 12 i was getting on my bike, when for the first and last time in my life I had a flash back to when I was peering into the eyes of an individual who exactly one month before, had tricked me into going into the woods(he used his wife and two kids, a boy and girl a little younger than me)with them. Once in the woods he told me how he was going to torture and kill me.
I was eight years old and had heard a little about Jesus in school on one or two occasions. We were Catholics, but rarely went to church, and I learned little when we did(it was all in Latin). My parents said little or nothing about the religion/God, but I did see my father on his knees, in his bedroom, every morning and night. It was how he started and ended everyday. So I guess I gave it(the God thing)some significanse(sp) consideration/personal thought. The only time I remember being told who Jesus was, was at school in New York. We were given the option back then(1957)to go to a church of our own choosing once a week during the last hour of the day, or stay in school and do secular activities. My family left it up to me. I recall once when for some reason I went and a nun had us color pics. Mine was of Jesus and a bunch of kids. The nun told me that Jesus loved children. That was about all the knowledge I had regarding the Bible/God etc., except we did occasionly(sp) sing "God Bless America" in school etc. So I guess I gave Him some significance/thought/consideration.
Well, I forget how he said he was going to torture me, but I do remember he said that "They would think I was run over by a train when they found me." I turned to the little boy on my right thinking "How could you have fooled me into coming here?" But it was obvious that he was forced/made to take part by the look on his face and his eyes were darting back and forth(trying to avoid my gaze). My next thought was for help. And I recall thinking "He is only six years old, he couldn't help me anyway."
I next turned to the little girl who was directly behind the boy. i only briefly looked at her. She was standing very stiff and staring at the back of the boy. My memory of the lady is, in a way, the most repulsive. She was standing behind and to the right of the two kids. She at first had a blank look on her face, and then, in response to my pleading look, I was thinking "What, your a mother and your not even going to help?" She gave me a disgusted look and turned(her face)away. She was blocking the way through the trees/bushes that we had come.
It was then that i took one or two steps in an attempt to flee. I stopped because I new I was trapped. And just then I remembered this Jesus character, and for some reason called out "Jesus please help me." At that moment something happened that words cannot describe, this incredible presence filled the place(the area, not me) and a peace filled me. I heard a voice tell me to just walk over to this field and follow what looked like a cow path through the field back to the road and my house. I did.
I didn't tell my family or anyone what happened. I was protecting them in a way. a month later I was going into town(Norwood/Norfork NY)with my next door neighbor and kids. I remember her saying "We are going to visit----He was electrocuted at work, and is staying at his mothers house." The very same guy. He either worked for, or was a friend or the son of the man who owned the little delapidated(sp) farmhouse that we were living in. It was a duplex, and about three familys(all related)lived next door with a ton of kids. He would walk directly up to me(single me out)and gained my friendship, etc. I would never had followed him into the woods alone though, that's where/why he used his kids that afternoon. It was a very rural area,. and I was on my way to visit a friend up and over the hill. Something I did every Saturday.
I remember walking into the living room and closing the door behind me. He was sitting on the couch wrapped head to toe in bandages. His mother was sitting on the opposite side of the couch. I remember walking up and standing eye to eye and peering deep into his dark/black eyes and thinking "Your as good as dead. You will never be able to hurt me or anyone else ever again." I had absolutley no fear, but was very bitter and full of hate for this man. Suddenly his mother let out a deep sigh, breaking my concentration and I simply turned at walked out. Never giving him much thought after that day(a couple of days/weeks later we moved to Masena NY, and I heard nothing else about the guy).
Which brings me to the time I was twelve, and getting on my bike. Suddenly I was locked into that gaze into his dark eyes, and thinking the exact same thoughts. I was filled with anger/bitterness/and hate for this guy. In fact it went to a point of utter lack of any sort of remorse for his condition(I thought he was suffering and about to die. And I suddenly realized that the way I felt about him, absolutely zero empathy, was the way he felt about me and the rest of mankind. The dude was a psychopath. It was a very strange revelation, but it dawned on me as I relived that hate filled encounter/gaze into his soul.
Then suddenly, pulling me out of that dark place, was an instant and over whelming filling/feeling of guilt. I immediately spun around and looked up at God and snapped "Why should i feel guilty for what he did? Your wrong!" I was certain that God had made a mistake in putting guilt upon/in me. And that I was right, and had every right to be/feel anger, bitterness and hate for this guy.
I had a very strong personal relationship with God/Jesus, and had been convicted of my wrong doings(swearing, picking on little brother etc.)and had an understanding of sin and Gods use of guilty feelings/conscience to warn me when I went astray. And new that this powerful and overwhelming feeling of guilt that intruded/was placed upon me that afternoon was from God...it certainly didn't arise from me.
I never had any thoughts or similar experiences, but did come to realize years later that God was right, that bitterness and hate can eat away at your soul. Better to forgive.
BTW, I eventually started telling people about how God/Jesus did both figuratively and spiritually save me that day. But not until around 1980 or so. Both family, friends and strangers.
And I never forgot the mans or lady(his wife) face. It was burned into my memory. If I had a computer linked to my brain, I could print a perfect picture/image of them.
So one afternoon around 2002, I decided to turn on the TV to catch the CNN news. It was at the beggining of the hour, and I wanted to catch the days top news(first five min. or so). It was on the Court TV channel and just as I was about to change the channel on the remote, I hear this this middle aged guy on the show turn to the camera(he was driving a car)and say "My father was a serial killer, and just before he killed them, they would turn and look at me as if I had willingly tricked them."
Well, it stopped me cold, and I thought how that was exactly what I did that afternoon. He went on to say how his father would use him and his mother, and sometimes his sister to get kids(young boys)to let down their guard and lure them somewhere and murder them. According to him, at least thirty, and most likely over 50 young boys. His two sisters, one older and one younger, confirmed his allegations. This started in the mid fifties, and continued into the sixties. My story happened during the middle of summer 1957.
Well this got my attention, and they lived on the east coast(NY/Mass/NJ)so i continued to watch, but of course had doubts. They were slow at showing the "man" and when they did he was old and didn't even vaguely resemble the young gur I remembered. Then the started showing pictures of when they were young. They first showed a pic of the mother, who had already passed away. I was shocked. It was the same lady. I remember her plain, makeup-less face. And then they showed him. I never forgot that ear to ear chesire cat smile.
To make an even longer story short, I contacted the head of the D.A's office here in San Diego(2005)after the program came on a second time. After several interviews and many questions and call backs they pretty much confirmed/said they believed my story and were working with the D.A.'s office in Ayres, Mass.(where they are attempting to solve the murder of one boy.
They wanted to know different things, like how did i know that "he" was in the veterens hospital in Massena that summer etc. Well eventually the D.A. told me that he was the same guy but that it was circumstantial and they needed "Hard evidence." to prosecute him, and that they were focusing on the one murder in Mass. at the time. Said that it was a very slow process, etc.
The name of the Court TV show was "Investigative Reports: Investigating Father" it was last aired around 2008, and can still be purchased on line under "Investigating Father". It was produced by Nancy Grace at the time(she is no longer with Court TV)and was the work of the British journalist Peter Edlinger.
Long story to make a not so simple point.
Skeptic- "Grammar check...it will do little to ipress that you hold an advanced degree in education."
I am sure you will find many spelling and grammatical errors in the above account...what can I say? Maybe I should give back my B.S. degree...eh?
Skept- "I think your posting 2 posts to my single one says something of your prolific nature..."
No, I have never had a way with words(I assume that's what you are implying(that I don't)...ahhh, now you have gone and "hurt my fillings." Lol.
Perhaps i will attempt to get to the rest of your post later(keeping with my "prolific" nature).
Later...maybe.
Edit: I haven't, and I am not about to go back and read this and edit it...i know there are allot of senteces/paragraphs that could use some attention, but why bother? It will probably just get delited again, or simply not read or believed and will surely simply fade into obscurity.
But like I saaid, it was a "personal experience, not meant for sharing."
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 21, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Thank you for sharing. I can see that you have a deep and profound faith. I would never want to take that away from you. In the same way, I have my own deep and profound convictions. They are at odds with your views, but I would never presume to assert anyone has less of a right to live their lives as they see fit, as long as it doesn't impinge on another's freedom.
I hope you can respect my POV and allow me and others like me to live our lives with the convictions we have.
That's all I'm trying to get across. Enjoy.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
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Skep!
I totally agree with you, that you have the right to live as you(we/everyone)see's fit. That is why we are so priviledged to live in a country were we can vote/elect who ever represents those(our individual)ideals and beliefs. I have difficulty with being tossed/included with a political party/war etc. As if that had anything to do with the relationship i have with my Creator. And I feel there are/were many mistakes made in the 80's etc. with the corealtion(sp) between the two.
And I could say allot more. But won't.
"I would never want to take that away from you."
It could never be taken/or lost. And is a gift that once received will never be taken away. And I know this is impossible to comprehend, but it is a relationship. And, it is difficult to portray or explain as such. I know many probably all religions are a matter of following rules/laws etc. That is what God was showing the ancient Hebrews, and the world, that they/we can not work our way to heaven by keeping the law.
A person can got to the same church and work his way up to head pastor most famous American in that respect, and fool everyone including himself on the way. I am sure there are many who have/are.
It's a relationship. The thief on the cross next to Jesus initiated one. It is about our hearts, not our heads. Knowledge has nothing to do with it. It is a very humbling experience.
The bottom line is that it should be about love. Period. Things are a real mess in America with the political etc. aspect...
I did want to comment briefly reguarding one of your presumptions.
Two thousand years isn't a long time with God. "A thousand years is like a day, a day like a thousand years." Time is irrevelent(sp)in His timing of things. There were certain prophecies that had to come to fruition. For example Israel returning back to the Promised Land after being spread out across the globe(just a handful/few million)persecuted for centuries, and then return. The Temple was torn down just as Jesus prophecied(not a stone left) in 70AD.
The size of the army that attacks Israel 200 million prophosied in Ezekel wasn't possible until Mao SeTung actually announced that he had the ability to produce an army of 200M(1960's)...etc.
And the ability for one man/system to be able to control a one world government/econ/bank etc,...etc.
It's all falling into place, but not necessarily my focus.
Sorry about the 99.999% or whatever I accused you of. I admit i was way over exaggerating(sp). Not necessarily anything wrong with those threads if it were true. Look at Dr.F... I just felt as though you had much more personality and experience wise to offer.
BTW, that's a great shot of you and a couple a beautiful gals on top of Robbins Crack. One of my favorite locations and climbs at Mt. Woodson!!
Take care Bro!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 21, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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You were not created by The Guy In The Sky.
Two opposite sex humans had intercourse and your zygote just happened to form.
Please just grow up.
Santa is coming soon.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Sep 22, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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Nothing we did...
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Sep 23, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Sep 25, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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Every one can believe or not believe what ever they want, but that can't change the fact that there is a God and that He loves us and He sent His Son to prove it!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 25, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
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Stephen J Gould:
Homo sapiens did not appear on the earth, just a geologic second ago, because evolutionary theory predicts such an outcome based on themes of progress and increasing neural complexity. Humans arose, rather, as a fortuitous and contingent outcome of thousands of linked events, any one of which could have occurred differently and sent history on an alternative pathway that would not have led to consciousness.”
— "The Evolution of Life On Earth," Scientific American 271 (October 1994): 85-86.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 26, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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The real facts are; we don't know if there is a God
Who's we?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 26, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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Dr F -- "I can save myself"
No you can't.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Sep 26, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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"and if you never heard of Jesus"
But we did!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 26, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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"you are a child of the universe. like the trees and the stars, you have a right to be here."
we don't need no stinkin' savin'.
:-)
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 26, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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But we did!
Ya know, gob, I'm really happy for you. You apparently gain great comfort and satisfaction from your guidebook. I think you believe it, but the frequency and constant quotes from it you post make me wonder if you're not just a little unsure about the whole deal. Now I know you're going to post a reply to this stating emphatically that you're just one totally blissed-out jesus-freak and use scripture to support your rant, but take a minute before you hit send and think about this:
Most people who are really comfortable with their philosophies and beliefs don't go around beating people over the head with them. They quietly let their deeds do the talking, and if someone should be so impressed, they will impart the nature of their strength to them.
Perhaps we'd be more impressed in what you're actually doing to help the downtrodden, like "today I went and washed the homeless' feet" or "next Tuesday I'm helping build shelters for the impoverished" or "today I'm taking inner city ghetto kids out to learn to climb", you know, that sort of thing. You could start your own thread - What go-B did to spread the works of god today.
Just a suggestion.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 26, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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^ Not one original thought. ^
You're probably doing more to drive people away from your beliefs than you realize. How do you think your man upstairs feels about this?
(try to do it just this once without any quotes- betcha can't)
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Sep 26, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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Poets, priests and politicians
Have words to thank for their positions
Words that scream for your submission
And no-one's jamming their transmission
And when their eloquence escapes you
Their logic ties you up and rapes you
De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
De do do do, de da da da
Their innocence will pull me through
De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
De do do do, de da da da
They're meaningless and all that's true
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 26, 2010 - 06:12pm PT
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I believe that Gobee's constant and unsolicited copy and pastes of biblical
quotes is designed for two reasons.
1) He throws them in simply because he does not know what else to do.
He is unable to participate in any of the discussions going on because
he feels others do better than he at representing his beliefs.
As such, he relies on Trip7, and JLB, and the other fundamentalist Christians to speak for him.
2) Jesus was persecuted. Gobee want to also be a victim, be persecuted
"wronged" by what he sees as the rabid god deniers posting here.
He posts ONLY scripture, and not any thoughts of his own, because he knows
from experience, that he will get a reaction, often ridiculing him.
This then brings him closer, in persecution and suffering, to Jesus.
Throughout time, fanatical Christians would inflict physical suffering
on their own bodies to show how they identify with Christ's suffering.
Nowadays, psychology identifies them as Masochists, people who
truly do enjoy hurting their own bodies, just like Sadist enjoy making
other people suffer.
In this sense, Gobee is a Penitent, he digs being persecuted and especially
when he can bring it on himself, like these fellow Christians believe.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Sep 26, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M19g4KtVAGQ
After surviving severe burns ... resulting from an airplane crash while skydiving, Mickey Robinson had a "Death's Door" experience and spiritual rebirth
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 26, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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William Catton (Overshoot) defines one kind (definition) of "fate" as outcome - whether micro or macro - that cannot be influenced by any purposive action a person or group might take. Now if the Abrahamic religions and their God (God Jehovah) weren't so strong in terms of their influence - which might be the case 100 years from now if trends keep trending on - anybody have a problem with using "God" as just an indefinite general name for the personalization (or personification) of fate?
Or, we could go with Mother Fate. But that could be unwieldy if not silly given that we already have Mother Nature.
.....
"anybody have a problem with using "God" as just an indefinite general name"
I mean, besides Dr. F. LOL.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 26, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
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Yes, Gobee.
It was God who "wanted" that man to suffer severe burns.
Just so he could have a religious experience.
You IDIOT.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 26, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
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God has never let any creature live! He, she, it has killed every living thing that has ever existed and will continue to do so for eternity! death is God's inevitable consequence for all living things.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sep 26, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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anybody have a problem with using "God" as just an indefinite general name for the personalization (or personification) of fate?
The Buddhists do just that and call it karma.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 26, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
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Good point!!!
Class, in this example, God made a decision to NOT let the man die pretty quickly.
Instead, and here is the lesson, God chose to make the man suffer horrible
pain by burning his flesh.
Why would a loving God intentionally do that to the man?
BECAUSE that way, the man could have a religious experience! This is the LESSON!
YES: NOTHING has changed in 2000 years, has it?
The same dogmatic, ignorant, lunacy of contorted effort to "reason" that
humans dealt with back then, is still, incredibly, STILL going on in 2010.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 26, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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^^^^
Logic has nothing to do with TRUTH.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 26, 2010 - 11:09pm PT
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Yeah, baby, I have it figured out - this week's puzzle. I'd bet 10 to 1 on it. Here goes...
TripL7=ThaDood.
That's pretty lame, not to mention duplicitous, man. Men of God Jehovah shouldn't be so, it's unbecoming. Remember these things, according to the narrative, whether myth or not, are recorded in the book. Duplicity is sin. "So it is done, so it is recorded, so it shall be judged."
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Sep 27, 2010 - 01:13am PT
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 27, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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Hahahahaha
LOL
Hahahaha
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 29, 2010 - 09:33am PT
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Did you see the article in the NY Times about the religion quiz? Seems that the group who scored highest on religious knowledge were the atheists/agnostics. Are we to infer that the more you actually know about religion/god the less likely you are to believe in same?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 29, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
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Donini, lets keep it real!
"On questions about the Bible and Christianity, the groups that answered the most right were white evangelical Protestants and Mormons."
"On questions about world religions, like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and Judaism, that groups that did the best were atheist, agnostics, and Jews." The New York Times
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 29, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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"On questions about the Bible and Christianity, the groups that answered the most right were white evangelical Protestants and Mormons."
-Which isn't surprising either - given how "stenotheistic" they are. -Which is nothing to be proud of in the advancing 21st century. Would not a 16th century Ayatollah get the most questions right regarding the Quran? And would this be something to be proud of if this ayatollah lived in the 21st century? Not.
stenotheistic : narrow-minded regarding god concepts or god-based narratives
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 29, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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And what a "telling" conclusion from the co-author of the study"
"Greg Smith, who co-authored the survey, told Pitts, "the three groups that really come out on top of this survey are atheists and agnostics, Jews along with Mormons." Smith added, "at the bottom are mainline Protestants, Catholics and those who describe their religion as just nothing in particular."
The more one knows, the more one is LEAST likely to buy the Big Guy in the Sky story.
Same conclusion from polling the members of the American Society of Scientists.
93% of some of the most educated, smartest, people in American, do NOT believe in "god".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 29, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
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93% of some of the most educated, smartest, people in American, do NOT believe in "god".
And that per cent probably would rise to 99.7 if the question were framed in terms of Jehovah (aka Guy in the Sky, aka God of Abraham).
Hence my interest in prodding the irreligious / post-religious - if in fact they want to get traction in these areas - to raise the bar a notch - to stop "dangling deities" - to call out God Jehovah instead of the vague indefinite "God" which only plays into the hands of the Abrahamic religions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 29, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
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Norton- "Telling."
Knowledge about everything that is not God/Jesus Christ, will amount to just that "knowledge".
Christianity is about a relationship with the Creator.
edit: It is not a religion, it is a relationship.
Religions attempt to work their way to God.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 29, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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One of my most dearest friends, who was 75, died last Sunday.
He developed an Aneurysm in his lower right leg. The doctors told him that
the only way to save his life was to cut off his leg.
He hands and arms were too weak to support him getting around on crutches after such a surgery.
He was faced with the choice of either "living" the remainder of his life in
a wheelchair,
unable to work in his shop, walk with his dog, or have any kind of "normal" life.
He made the very emotional and deeply personal decision to not have his leg
cut off, and instead they took him home, where he lay in bed suffering while
the pain of gang-green spread though his body.
The doctor gave him morphine for the pain, and when my friend could not
stand the agony any more, the Doctor did what doctors do all day long,
he gave him a little extra morphine. He died while asleep.
Now, here is my point. According to the fundamentalist Christians like
those right here on this thread, that doctor committed "murder" because he
knowingly made my friend die sooner than if he he would have just let the
injection made him scream in agony a few more days.
That's right, just like Dr. Kevorkian was vilified and called a "murderer"
right on this thread a few days ago, ALL doctors all across the world who
"help" ease the agony of death when their patients are literally begging
them to do so, are MURDERERS.
Well, fuk every one of you hard core "Christians". I hate your guts.
How dare you judge and call these fine Doctors "murderers".
And how dare you DENY my friend dying with peace and without agony.
Murderers should be prosecuted, you all would put all those doctors in
prison with life sentences for MURDER.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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So much hate and spite and pride just oozing out of this thread.
Topic seems to bring out the worst in many.
Guess I'll just keep moving on. Peace.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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weschrist- "knowledge of the dominant fairytale is not...."
And visa versa!
That was the exact same point that I was making in regards to donini, et al;
That knowledge of the world religions, does not equate to the atheist having more knowledge in regards to what Christians have about their Bible, God, Jesus Christ etc.
Donini, et al. where getting all puffed up about atheist and agnostic's having more "knowledge" about religion. He/they were infering that they new more about God & Christianity, the Bible, etc. than we(born again/evangelicals) do...KNOTT.
weschrist- "keep your relationships to yourself".
You sound like a NAZI...
I wouldn't have even come on this site if you guy's were capable of keeping the facts straight.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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You are thick headed weschrist.
I made no claim of Christians being more knowledgable regarding "religion" because they..
Just like the report/article states, Christians know more about Christianity...
Who cares about the 100's or according to your buddy "Fruitcake" 1,000's of other religions? There own followers, and atheist because atheist study all the religions to find faults with them, period.
I have found the one true God and I am happy. I have no need to study all the others. Although I have in college, in discussions, through work and relationships over the last 50 years, etc. I am sure I know more about them then you and "Fruitose" put together,,,,SO WHAT, WHO GIVES A DAMN.
You and the other GOD HATERS are on this site simply stir up trouble, and feed your bitter and sick contempt for the God that created you and anyone who believes in Him. You could care less about the other religions.
Like i said I/we know the Holy Bible better than anyone else. That is what the study/report said, and far as I am concerned all that matters.
GOOD-BYE!!
~777~
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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donini- "Seems that the group that scored highest on religeous knowledge were atheist/agnostics.
No, like the report that donini was quoting(the NY Times)they(atheist, agnostics)scored highest on religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism the atheist had more knowledge.
Christians(evangelical Protestants) new more about the Bible and Christianity.
donini- "Are we to infer that the more you are to know about religion/god, the less likely you are to believe in same?
"religion/god"....???
You know much less, and next to nothing about God, because you don't even believe there is one.
Saying you know more about God, when you say "there is no God". Is like saying you know more about some city/town/valley/river etc. when you claim that place does not even exist to someone who has been there.
We know more about the Holy Bible, and the God of the Holy Bible.
atheist know more about the various other religions.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wes,
The other day, donini and I were discussing specifically the NY Times article. I am sure you can find/contribute volumes of other evidence one way or the other....like I said, who cares??
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I quoted the article(notice the quotation marks)up thread. It was the one that donini was talking about, and was what came up for that specific day/NYT...
My quotes are from the article that donini was referring to.
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WBraun
climber
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Of course anyone can know a lot about religion through mental gymnastics, mental speculation, and book reading.
That proves absolutely nothing except you're some so called rubber stamped scholar.
God consciousness does not in any way shape or form rely on any of the above methods .........
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wes, a couple days ago they had only part of the report, enough ton draw interest in his study. What you found is in addition to what was on the internet link.
But what is the point?
So atheist know more about other "religions" outside of Christianity/Bible...great, congratulations.
That does not mean they know more about God, or the Bible.
Wes- "I don't see where..."
Let me ask you this, do you see my quotes up thread in the article/report?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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The survey is not designed to explore God Consciousness...."
donini- "Are we to infer the more you know about religion/god, the less likely you are to believe in same?"
Donini seems to possibly think otherwise, as he asked/questioned.
That atheist have "more" knowledge about God. And that the more knowledge you have of Him, the less liklely you are to believe in Him.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes, i made a direct quote from the NY Times article that came up when I googled the guys name/article.
I quoted the article.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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The article i quoted, and my quote two days ago said, "White Evangelicals"
It says "7.2 %.
Go back and read it.
So what!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Your not even worth discussing this with, you are missing some critical thinking/whatever axons Bro.
I quoted what donini said "religion/god"..."the more we know about, the lees likely we..."
YOU said somethingn about God Consciousness, which IS knowledge/knowing God.
Christians know Him through a relationship.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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"...you are missing some critical thinking/whatever axons Bro."
Rich!
.....
Keep the charge, Wes. The info age is to ol'time religious fundamentalists what Na is to H20 molecules.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Correct, I said Christians...the article i quoted said "evangelical Protestants".
I was speaking of what I believe to be known as, and referred to as "The Body of Christ."
And evangelical Protestants is who the "Body of Christ" is in my opinion. When I say "Christians" that is who I am referring to. Not all the others which are not/do not claim to be "born again" that call them selves "Christians". That is the dif. What is wrong with the quote(that i made from the NY Times article)is that there are many "Evangelical Christians" who are of others races/colors other than "white", that didn't make sense to me.
Edit: "Critical thinking skills"....is what I was referring to.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Twisted thinking!
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scarface
Trad climber
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Oh, I see. In your world you can take information, interpret it in your own context to support your own preconceived notion of reality, then loudly proclaim the truth of your conclusion. That must be convenient.
This seems to be SOP, more or less, for just about everyone Wes.
TripL7, don't mind Wes he is dealing with Mormon repression issues.
SF
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Wes, you really need to read up on the various definitions of "God Consciousness".
According to the Vedic priest...an example would be comparing a wave to the ocean, blah, blah, blah(not being condescending, just don;t have the time to explain their belief in the Oneness of the universe, etc.....
As a Christian, we can be very aware of His Spirit. And I am sure you have little or more likely zero interest in hearing my"Bah, blah, blah, on the subject.
You are extremely ignorant, arrogant and insulting to demean our relationship with God.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wes- "know more about..."
It's not what you know more about, it is what you believe.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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The fact of the matter is, the more you know and hear about the "Good News" the more accountable you are for following and obeying that knowledge. I am speaking in regards to the Holy Bible. And receiving Jesus Christ as Lord.
America, with churches and bibles everywhere etc. is going to be held much more accountable, and receive a much harsher judgment then Sodom and Gomorrah.
And the devils advocates, all the anti-Christs I shudder at the thought of the wrath that awaits them.
I know you will know say "Scare tactics..."
Well, I would be held accountable for not warning you of the wrath of God that awaits you.
The fact is that He loves you every bit as me, at this point. His love for you is a deep, deep grief. Somewhat similar as a mothers lament for a loss child. But times that by tens of thousands of times more pain and grief...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I was a Catholic, and went to church and catchism(sp)on my own as a youth(up to 13yrs)and have some "knowledge" of the transubstantiation of the body and blood of Christ. I remember thinking it rather strange, and questioned it. I went to communion(and went to confession prior to that)and focused more on my repentance, and making an effort not to do what I had confessed to the priest, and then supposed that he passed on to God.
But I had a very personal relationship with Jesus/God from 8 years old as I have all ready stated. And around thirteen years old, I started moving away from/questioning many of the beliefs that the Roman Catholic Church holds.
Evangelical protestant Christians believe that practicing, or taking part in the sacrament/communion is a way of remembering what Christ did on the cross("Do this in memory of Me..."). That is the focus. And it is not the literal body and blood of Christ. What is more important is, have we confessed and turned from our sins...is our heart right in considering the price that He paid for us.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Not to interfere too much but... All I can think about when I see this thread is Jaun/Jeff passing away. I am sure he now knows the deeper truth behind this.
AFS
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nope. No he doesn't. Life for the individual is a one-shot deal, honey.
But it might take a few years to come to grips with this reality. We're built to survive, not necessarily to come to full-on grips with our own mortality. A few years? More if you were raised in the expectations of traditional Abrahamic theology. I think the formula is Y=5*X. -Where Y is the number of years to recast your thinking, X the number of years you imprinted on Christianity and its promise of eternal lifeafter. So plugging in the numbers, it is easy to why some raised in a Christian environment NEVER make the transition, NEVER free themselves. Sad.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Dr.F "What will He do, send us..."
He will honor your request/belief, that you do not want to spend eternity with Him. That is pretty evident from the discussion onn this thread, and I imagine what you have stated elsewhere and believe.
He is not going to force you here on earth, to make that choice. That is the whole Bible story in a nut shell.
i know that others, such as WB, believe otherwise, but this is it.
All that was prophesied is coming true regarding the latter days. He is bringing the knowledge of Him to the whole world. Through satelite television, radio, and through missionaries, etc. America is very cold, and is drifting further and further from the Biblical truths/beliefs.
Other continents such as South America and Africa, and countries such as China and Iran etc. it is just the opposite. There are hundreds accounts of Jesus Christ appearing to people and revealing Himself to them coming out of Iran. A country where the Bible is restricted/not available or allowed.
There are only two places to spend eternity, with Him, or away from Him.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Nope. No he doesn't. Life for the individual is a one-shot deal, honey
Now this sure is a proclamation of faith and belief fruity.
SF
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Yeah, it's faith (aka, trust) and yeah, it's belief (aka, mental holding). (a) A few years of education (e.g., science edu) and (b) commitment to live up to it would do wonders for you, then you'd get it.
Believe you me, I'm the last person who's going to let ol'time religious crackpots keep the words "faith" and "belief" to themselves. These are good English words.
I trust in my climbing gear. I have faith in it. But it's no blind faith, it's experiential faith, evidential faith, science-based faith, reason-based faith. That's the difference. For those who don't get that, what a pity.
What's more, I believe. I believe in science. I believe in education. I believe in the good works so-called atheists and agnostics do now that they have the freedom to express themselves without persecution by the townspeople. Indeed, I believe in lots of things. -That makes me a believer. Yeah, baby!
"A-theists" who relinquish these words to Abrahamic supernaturalists slow the movement. But I trust (i.e., I have faith) that insofar as they start thinking like strategists in a campaign - which is what this is - they will come around to breaking with old habits, reframing things, using these words.
Reminders: (1) Christians are infidels. Christians are non-believers. -When the "God" is Amon-Re or Ishtar. Do the movement a favor - have the courage and originality to reframe it - and start calling them on it. (2) Only religions make a mess of the words belief and faith. As peoples and cultures evolve, as they move past "blind" faith and "supernaturalist" belief, the usefulness of these words will be clear.
Faith in education,
belief in rock n roll,
HFCS.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Anastasia,
Yes, I to believe that Juan/Jeff knows the very answer to the question he asked here. As you succinctly put it "the deeper truth behind this". And as I stated 3-4 pages back that i also think about Jeff every time I come to this thread. I wish i had contacted him, or taken him more seriously.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Nope. No he doesn't. Life for the individual is a one-shot deal, honey
This adamant proclamation goes beyond your following explanation fruity. You state with complete certainty that you know what comes with death. And you deliver your thought with a hint of fire and brimstone. You must be repressed as well.
SF
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Memory, thought processes, consciousness, sentience - they all derive from brain circuitry. When the plug is pulled on these circuits, it's pulled on these mental functions, too.
Go to school. Read the biology. You know, some people have actually dedicated their lives -decades upon decades - to these subjects. This dedication and the education that follows from it are clear. Brain produces mind in all its aspects. There is no ghost in the machine.
Challenge yourself. Do yourself and the world a favor and come to grips with this reality. For many it has to do with attitude. Attitude is everything.
First, acquire the education. Second, live up to it. -Which for many is the harder step. That's the new adaptive proactive orientation. Strive to gain it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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One of my most dearest friends, who was 75, died last Sunday.
He developed an Aneurysm in his lower right leg. The doctors told him that
the only way to save his life was to cut off his leg.
He hands and arms were too weak to support him getting around on crutches after such a surgery.
He was faced with the choice of either "living" the remainder of his life in
a wheelchair,
unable to work in his shop, walk with his dog, or have any kind of "normal" life.
He made the very emotional and deeply personal decision to not have his leg
cut off, and instead they took him home, where he lay in bed suffering while
the pain of gang-green spread though his body.
The doctor gave him morphine for the pain, and when my friend could not
stand the agony any more, the Doctor did what doctors do all day long,
he gave him a little extra morphine. He died while asleep.
Now, here is my point. According to the fundamentalist Christians like
those right here on this thread, that doctor committed "murder" because he
knowingly made my friend die sooner than if he he would have just let the
injection made him scream in agony a few more days.
That's right, just like Dr. Kevorkian was vilified and called a "murderer"
right on this thread a few days ago, ALL doctors all across the world who
"help" ease the agony of death when their patients are literally begging
them to do so, are MURDERERS.
How dare you judge and call these fine Doctors "murderers".
And how dare you DENY my friend dying with peace and without agony.
Murderers should be prosecuted, you irrational zealots would put all those doctors in
prison with life sentences for MURDER.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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weschrist- "keep it to your self..."
Dr.F- asked me a question, and i answered it.
And I will do what ever i feel like doing with my beliefs, this thread is titled "Why do so many people BELIEVE in God? (Serious Question?)"
I am sharing my "BELIEFS" and why I "BELIEVE"...
weschrist, when I think of you, this Bible verse often comes to mind. "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Fructose,
I have had years of biology and the sciences/neuro-sciences. We are required to take the premed undergrad program before we enter(or apply for)the Occupational Therapy program. I find/found it fascinating. It is a Person that I know. Nothing in science will prove anything in regards to His not being God.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Ed, I am very sorry to here of your friends suffering, and the difficult decision he and the doctor ultimately made.
What was the date, last Sunday the 27th.?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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"I have had years of biology..."
Well, it sure isn't reflected in your BELIEFS. Sad.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Anastasia!
I stayed away from this thread for months, it is inhabited by the God haters that lurk here and, I imagine elsewhere that seek to destroy what others are searching for, and believe.
My faith can not be destroyed.
Unfortunately, those who ask a simple question, such as Jaun/Jeff, are often turned off by the rabid bitterness and hate that is spewed forth by those who despise the very answers that are offered by "believers" such as myself and others to his simple question "Why...".
I think of Jaun/Jeff and wonder, if he had found that "mustard seed" of faith/belief that we have to share, would he still be with us.
He was sincere in asking, that is clear by the following posts that he made at the beginning of this thread.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Fruity,
You never did answer my question (though likely you have the same complaint about me) about what is consciousness. Fact of the matter is that nobody can explain what it is. You do not know that the mind follows from the brain.
Pure and simple. I am educated. I am not a christian. You do not know what happens when one dies.
Norton,
Sorry you are grieving, but really, you like to create demons.
what religion is that?
SF
Edit to add:
Interesting take on consciousness in this book by a physicist Henry Stapp called Mindful Universe - Quantum Mechanics and the Participating Observer.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Just as it's taken time to work through evolution, climate change, etc., so too it's taken time to work through "consciousness" issues and human mortality. But the knowledge systems are there. For those who want to (a) work through them and (b) live up to the education they impart. -Which clearly isn't everyone in the good ol' U.S.A.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Scarface, I am not getting your point.
You say I "like to create demons".
What exactl demons have I created?
Clue: Atheists do NOT "believe" in devils, or gods, or demons.
Maybe my stating my horror at the fundamentalist Christians on this thread
claiming that a doctor helping a patient in agony to "die" was a "murderer"?
How did I "create a demon" there? I would say the real demons are those that
would criminalize doctors for committing "murder".
And make no mistake about it: Trip7 calls such doctors "murderers" because
they "took a life" before it ran its "normal" agony of dying.
Just like he called the great compassionist Dr. Kevorkian a "murderer".
Trip7 and his 12th century sadists who would prefer to see humans suffer
in agony rather than just have a doctor give them that little more morphine
that happens all day long in developed countries, are the real "demons"
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scarface
Trad climber
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Norton,
Your friend has been dead less than a week. Grieve.
I think that using your loss to so singularly fuel anger creates demons (metaphorical in your case). You'll cover up and lose things about your friend that deserve more nuance than just anger IMHO.
After all, he did accomplish what he wanted. That should be celebrated.
SF
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Scarface, I will thank you to not tell me, or anyone else, when or how to grieve.
That is a very personal issue.
And frankly, none of your business.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Norton,
So that is why you put it up on an internet forum. Get a grip.
SF
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton,
In all due respect, it sounds like "your friend" decided against having his leg amputated, which would have obviously prevented the gangrene/pain. Many people are wheelchair bound, and live productive and meaningful lives with one leg amputated.
"His arms and hands were to weak to support him getting around after such a surgery."
Well that is why they have therapist like myself(an O. T.)an P.T.'s to get them back functioning.
But he didn't have the surgery, so his hands/arms were fine.
He basically didn't want to live life without his one leg. And possibly spend his remaining life in a wheel chair.
Like i said, there are many people that spend their whole lives in wheel chairs.
And many people that have both legs amputated and live great lives.
Very strange case Norton.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Locker, you can help with my loss by making me laugh.
How about the picture of you and Fatty and the tailpipe?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Norton,
I work in hospitals with patients that are terminally ill etc. I am well aware of what goes on with patients that have reached a particular age, have a particular diagnosis or a combination of both. Particularly in this day and age of HMO's.
I remember this guy that was about 60-61. Had perfect health. Just didn't want to live any longer, and decided to starve himself to death. He had convinced his family that he no longer wanted to live.
He got to the point where he could not care for himself. so he was moved to the TCU (Transitional Care Unit) that i was working at. It was up to him and his M.D., and evidently he had convinced his M.D. to let him go through with it. The M.D. i worked for/with was really upset about it, and said it was an outrage, etc.
I was in the room when the nurse practitioner who was on duty told me/us that he had less then 5-10 min to live. I just happened to be working with a patient directly across from him.
I will never forget the look on the guys face when he suddenly sat straight up in bed and after about 10-15 extremely deep breaths and blowing out air shouted:
"OH NO!" IS THERE ANYWAY WE CAN TURN THIS AROUND?"
His exact words. The NP just shook her head no, and walked out of the room.
It wasn't about physical pain. He told me that he didn't want to go where he had just been headed.
He was dead in less then 10 minutes.
True story.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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God bless you Locker.
And Santa too.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Trip, your story is meaningless to this discussion.
I have given you plenty of opportunity to come out and stick to your faith.
Your faith says thou shalt not kill. Doctors "kill" people every day.
Say it loud and clear, Trip. Right now, I want everyone to hear you call
Doctors "murderers", just like you called Dr. K.
And then tell us what we do with murderers in this country.
We either kill them, which again makes "us" murderers.
Or we put them in prison for life.
So Trip, be PROUD of your rigid, 13th century "faith".
Tell us that Doctors who are asked by their terminal, suffering, patients to
give them just a little "more" morphine so they can pass away, are MURDERERS.
Time to "man up", Trip. Call them murderers.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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My story was very pertinent to this thread, because you asked if i was aware of what doctors are "doing all day long". I just told you that I worked with doctors, and patients and other therapists, nurses and techs. that here about how patients are doing. I have been doing it for nearly 20 years. The patients are not in pain because they are on pain meds in the hospital that control that. They are on IV's/drips etc.
Since when did you become a specialist on pain management and whatn M.D's are doing every day. I think you have been mixing to much wine with YOUR pain meds.
And quit ordering me around in regards to your hysterical illusions.
The the guy described the hell that he was going to.
Norton "I want to hear it right now, call Dr. Murderers.
You are certifiably cracking up fella.
Your logic makes about as much sense as a grade school fib.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I call Dr. Death a murderer a couple days ago, and you come to some twisted irrational reasoning that demands that I call all Doctors murderers??
go to bed Norton, you need a good nights rest.
I wouldn't drink anymore wine with the pain pills your taking tho fella, sounds like your geting a little to close to the deep end...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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You are chickensh#t, Trip, and shut your mouth about MY back pain.
It is none of YOUR business.
This is NOT about "pain management", and you or I working in a hospital has
nothing whatsoever to do with what I have asked you over and over to admit.
You tell stories and duck the issue.
It was YOU, Trip, who called Dr. K a "murderer" because he "helped" terminally
ill patients to die a little faster than continued suffering "natural death".
You can't dodge and duck this one. When one doctor is a murderer for
doing the SAME thing ALL doctors do, then you damn right YOU should be
called on the carpet for calling ALL doctors who hasten death murderers.
You see nothing wrong with calling doctors who do this "murderers", because
as you have stated, it says in the bible, Thou Shalt Not Kill.
In this country we lock up murderers for life in prison.
Say it loud and clear Trip, tell us all again you want those doctors
prosecuted for murder.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Clearly Sartre nailed it.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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I called Dr. Death a murderer.
I did not call "doctors" murderers, and I know of no one else "who does this".
You are one twisted soul. Full of hate and bitterness. Take your pathetic scenarios somewhere else.
I called Dr. Death a murderer because that is what the D.A. called him. And the public agreed by and large. You and your atheist buddies and their perverted beliefs amount to about 8% or less of society.
Your sick Norton, get yourself some help.
edit: I am serious Norton, Get Some Kind of Help with your psych. issues.
Hate and bitterness eat away at your soul. And believe it or not, you have a soul Norton, and it will be with you forever. Best make some peace with it know before it is to late.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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L'enfer, c'est les autres.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"Not about you or i working in a hospital..."
I work in and have worked with doctors for nearly 20 years. I know that current pain meds are capable of keeping a person pain free.
Your scenarios are bull, coming from a person that has a total atheist agenda. One that revolves around death, and like Fructose is fond of referring to "The Grim Reaper".
You are completely illogical, and your claims are totally unfounded.
Doctors work under, and take the Hippocratic Oath.
They preserve life, and make sure that anyone suffering from pain is comfortable. I am around patients day in and day out.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Merci Cintune!
C'est vraiment juste.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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And for all those on this thread who argue that only religion is unethical and harmful to human beings, here's the latest out of the science world.
Instead of bashing each other, it seems to me that people on this thread should be looking for ways to teach their fellow humans and our society some kind of universal ethics and respect for life. Clearly there are good and evil people in both the science and religion categories.
U.S. apologizes to Guatemalans for secret STD experiments
U.S. scientific researchers infected hundreds of Guatemalan mental patients with sexually transmitted diseases from 1946 to 1948.... On Friday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius issued a formal apology to the Central American nation, and to Guatemalan residents of the United States.
"Although these events occurred more than 64 years ago, we are outraged that such reprehensible research could have occurred under the guise of public health," said Clinton and Sebelius in a joint statement. "We deeply regret that it happened, and we apologize to all the individuals who were affected by such abhorrent research practices."
The discovery of the long-ago experiments stems from another, far better known episode of federal tampering with test subjects to study sexually transmitted diseases: the long-running "Tuskegee experiment," studying 399 poor black men from Macon County, Ala., who had been diagnosed with syphilis but never informed of their condition. Federal scientists simply told the men they had "bad blood" and researchers compiled a four-decades-long study monitoring "untreated syphilis in the male Negro."
Researchers never treated the illness over its usually fatal course, even after the simple remedy of penicillin was shown to be an effective syphilis treatment; participants received only free meals and medical exams, together with federal funding of their funeral expenses after they died. The study began in 1932, continuing right through to 1972, when it was exposed in media reports.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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You and your atheist buddies and their perverted beliefs amount to about 8% or less of society.
Well, I thought we had reached a mutual understanding a few pages ago regarding this. Now, I know that there has been some agitation on both sides and it really needs to end asap, but really, I do take offense at being called "perverted".
Again, you are perfectly welcome to live your life as you see fit and even advise those who will listen to your philosophy, but don't go INFLICTING your views on those who don't share them. I am as firmly convinced of the TRUTH of my views as you are of yours. Neither of us is more right than the other, but neither is less right too. You don't seem to get that. No matter what either of us thinks or is told by others, no one will truly know until the time comes.
We treat our pets better than we treat our brethren. As a medical professional, if I perceive that one of my patients is suffering, it is my duty to relieve that suffering. If that means ending their intractable suffering by empowering them to terminate their own life, then it is my professional and moral duty to do so. Kevorkian never killed anyone. He provided the means for others to do it themselves using his device.
Do not waste your or our time trying to convince us that we're going to burn in hell. If it's true, then you can stand at the edge of the pit and dance, singing "I told you so". But if you're wrong, then in those last moments when you realize it was all a fairy tale, I expect you to feel the full weight of the guilt you will bear for being a road block in the quest to relieve suffering of your fellow humans.
Hard-over, myopic bible thumpers like yourself are one of the great evils in this world.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skeptic,
And I haven't been back to this thread until today(since we last spoke)and had not intended to waste my time posting here and generally ignore the thread untel today when i noticed Donini comment in regards to the NY Times article in regards to knowledge. Which I feel, like most i do about most polls is meaningless/proves nothing either way. So i felt compelled to point out a discrepancy in his statement/correct an error.
Then weschrist makes a major issue out of minor media attempting to sell magazine crap...
Then Dr,F asks a question about if God is going to send him to hell. He has already asked me or others that question dozens of times, so i shouldn't have waited part of a beautiful day explaining to him that God is not sending anyone anywhere....
So, frankly i could care less about the lost God haters here any longer, WAY to much time and energy on my part already over the last year or so.
But, I, like you can share the Good News when ever i please, i don't cow down to you or any other atheist, agnostic, etc.
But i plan to "shake the dust off my feet" as Jesus instructed us to do when we leave a town that rejects Him/our testimony of Him.
The one thing you are wrong about and don't understand is that "someone can know for sure" that it is a matter of faith, then He reveals Himself to you. But that is the way He chose to do it.
And I would never/won't laugh at your destiny, nothing funny about it....
~777~
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pa
climber
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"When the love of power changes to the power of love, there will be peace".
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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A quote from the article: “Angry atheism does not work,” Mr. Kurtz said. “It has to be friendly, cooperative relations with people of other points of view.” To that end, he and several former employees of the center are starting a new organization, the Institute for Science and Human Values.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Brilliant:
Skeptimistic said:
We treat our pets better than we treat our brethren. As a medical professional, if I perceive that one of my patients is suffering, it is my duty to relieve that suffering. If that means ending their intractable suffering by empowering them to terminate their own life, then it is my professional and moral duty to do so. Kevorkian never killed anyone. He provided the means for others to do it themselves using his device.
Do not waste your or our time trying to convince us that we're going to burn in hell. If it's true, then you can stand at the edge of the pit and dance, singing "I told you so". But if you're wrong, then in those last moments when you realize it was all a fairy tale, I expect you to feel the full weight of the guilt you will bear for being a road block in the quest to relieve suffering of your fellow humans.
Hard-over, myopic bible thumpers like yourself are one of the great evils in this world.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Skep wrote-
(1) "Now, I know that there has been some agitation on both sides and it really needs to end asap..."
(2) "Neither of us is more right than the other, but neither is less right too."
Totally disagree. On count one, sometimes the benefits of agitation outweigh its costs. This is such a case. On count two, it depends on whether we're talking facts, views, preferences, etc.. If we're talking facts, then certainly one side can be "more right" than another.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Angry atheism does not work
In the same vein, paternalistic, dogmatic fundamentalism doesn't either. If no one is willing to listen, then it's just a shouting match.
HFCS- on point 2- No one on this plane of existence knows what lies beyond. Anyone that tells you differently is trying to sell something. I believe I know just as the Xtians believe they know, but there is absolutely no evidence to conclusively prove one way or the other, which is why this thread is sooo long.
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WBraun
climber
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"No one on this plane of existence knows what lies beyond."
Well you don't that's for sure.
Doesn't mean there are those that know, you wouldn't recognize them anyways even if they were standing right in front of you unless they revealed themselves to you.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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"No one on this plane of existence knows what lies beyond."
To what degree of certainty? 13%, 92%, 100.00000000000000%? This is an old philosophical theological thought trap - developed long long ago and maintained by "sophisticated" theists or theologians - that's easy to fall into. Don't fall for it. Avoid it. Instead, reframe it.
"No one knows..." I have a high level of confidence that when I pull the plug on my cpt, it's functionality doesn't transcend to some other plane. I have a high level of confidence that when a sparrow falls from the tree, it's functionality doesn't transcend to some other plane. I have that same high level of confidence in regard to our species. Special dispensation for H. sapiens would be a form of anthropocentrism, anthropic chauvinism or animal apartheid, whatever.
"No one knows..." When you say that, you ignore decades of education from biology and evolutionary theory and all across science. Every science and engineering discipline points to close relations between structure and function, cause n effect.
The problem is attitude, also courage, and coming to grips with the mortality of living things - evolved living things - which includes H. sapiens. How many umpteen millions don't even try. Another problem is we don't (yet) have a full-on narrative to inspire this attitude, change in attitude, and courage, nor to offer us support in this area and related areas. But I'm confident in time, we will. Human ingenuity is needed. But it is on the way.
We are decision-making organisms. That is our species special ability. Don't surrender this ability.
.....
EDIT
I am NOT "agnostic" concerning Mediterranean Gods (Aphrodite to Zeus) or Mesopotamian Gods (Ishtar to Yahweh). I am NOT "agnostic" concerning the mortality of evolved lifeforms on this planet either. Also, I am NOT "agnostic" concerning Satan (a so-called fallen angel according to this ancient theology, theistics) as a basis for evil (why bad things happen in the world). My decision made long ago: That is fiction, superstition, bronze age misconception laid down in myth (narrative, story) and institution long ago. Again, my decision. I exercised my decision-making powers in these areas - my right, my interest, even arguably my duty as a responsible citizen in today's world - and am accountable for them.
To be "agnostic" in these areas in this day and age esp is a cop out. Repeat: Cop out. At least for those who have a lifelong science education and general life education and a certain value system. Yeah, that is an attitude, too. Right now, it is mine. And millions of others. And soon enough, I predict, an institution's in the making. Can't wait.
.....
Science is clear. Mind is a product of brain. No brain, no mind. When the brain decays, the mind decays. That is an example of decision-making ability that doesn't require proof to a mathematical certainty, only proof to reasonableness. (-Which beats the sh#t out of any decision-making that "you have to be open-minded regarding Lazereth or Meshack or Samson because you were not there.") Decision-making ability based on reasonableness. Millions of people educated in science and engineering disciplines and general life savvy are using it. Be one of them.
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WBraun
climber
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I have a high level of confidence that when I pull the plug on my cpt, it's functionality doesn't transcend to some other plane.
Then plug the plug right now dude and be real scientist instead of all your cheap talk.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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hey Fructose, not so fast...
...if I sit down with a copy of Newton's Opitcks and read it, working through the experiments, I get a bit of Newton with it... like having a conversation with him across nearly 300 years. Not bad, his brain has long rotted away but his ideas, and even his voice, seem to persist.
I don't mean to infer that there is something supernatural about this persistence, but rather our consciousness may expand beyond individuals...
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WBraun
climber
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It's a special technical vocabulary.
Those words only describe, just like the word water will never quench your thirst.
You actually need the substance water.
There are words that are non-different from the substance and are absolute and saying/vibrating that word will quench your thirst anywhere.
Inferior words made up by a mundane person will only go so far but real sound vibration is non-different from the source and actually accomplish what one really needs/wants ....
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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I have a high level of confidence that when I pull the plug on my cpt...
Yes, but your machine isn't biological. While I believe that there is no "great beyond" to which our individual consciousness (aka: soul) transcends, I cannot conclusively deny the possibility. The only way we will know is to cross that dividing line (live/dead) or figure out a way to detect/disprove it.
If you've figured out some way to conclusively prove that there is no next level, then please share it and oh, stop by Stockholm to pick up your Nobel Prize on your way to your tenured position at the University of your choice.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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"I cannot conclusively deny the possibility..."
I use the word “conclusively” to mean... designating or of a conclusion.
Curiously, how are YOU using (or defining) the word. It is as if you’re using it synonymously to mean... to a mathematical certainty (100.0000%). If that is the case, we do not disagree – and you have never heard me say I am certain to a mathematical standard of 100.00% that there is no beyond or that this life is a one-shot deal. Then again, there is a world of difference between reasonable certainty and mathematical certainty (or a reasonable conclusion and a mathematically derived conclusion). Also, there is a world of difference between reasonable certainty (in order to proceed with further decision making) and what many a religious conservative calls out as certainty (which we might call religious certainty) to further his case, decision-making, etc.
Bottom line. I don’t need 100.00% mathematical certainty to draw conclusions in my decision-making process, only reasonable ones. -Not in problem solving, not in my creative pursuits or adventures, not in my everyday living, not in my beliefs as a basis for my practice of living either. -In order to proceed. Thank goodness, too, because if I did, I’d perhaps never get off the couch, let alone go climbing.
Anyway, that's all I'm saying. For now. ;)
....
But all this tempest in a teapot does point out that our modern culture REALLY is in need of some new subjects or disciplines in academia (even high school) along with some new language or short terminology sets to improve the discourses circa such elementary issues as these. It's really lacking. In so many ways, there is a great deal of catching up to do.
.....
"I believe that there is no "great beyond" to which our individual consciousness (aka: soul) transcends..."
Sounds like a "conclusive" statement to me in that it is drawing a conclusion - indeed a "reasonable" one, science supported, to boot - that I too have made. Which means... we agree.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Compare-
(a) "If you've figured out some way to "conclusively" prove to a reasonable standard that there is no next level, then please share it."
(b) "If you've figured out some way to "conclusively" prove to 100.00% mathematical certainty that there is no next level, then please share it."
For the latter I haven't. But for the former, I have. Yes, that's right. I'll share it now. ANS: Modern science education. A lifetime in the making. Kinda like climbing - for some, a lifetime in the making. -Not for the faint of heart. And "therein lies the rub."
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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You're right- we're arguing over semantics. I do mean 100% because I think that is what it would take for people on the opposite side of the argument to accept it, as it would take that for me to believe in their interpretation.
We both are in agreement as to our views. Sorry if it sounded like an attack. I like precise definitions...
Edit: Ha! this post is #4020 and it was 4:20 on my computer! Must be a sign!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Repost for the Abrahamites:
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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I like that idea Ed. There is an us that is made up of each of us, and that us has an intelligence (information) that transcends anyone's individual intelligence (information).
For each of us (and all of us people), our information is uniquely incomplete. Individually, we have innate information (genetics, instincts) and learned information (experiences). The greater us has some extra information about latency of information change in individuals, what is best for the species, or maybe ultimately reality as a whole, that it builds into each of us, but we don't yet understand it's benefits. Maybe an inkling, looking at the efficacy of learning algorithms.
I think the benefits of that latency, as well as the diversity of individual's beliefs (information), is the key to the OP's question. Our incomplete information suggests that it's stupidity, but I think that's just a reflection of our own inability to understand the unfathomable intelligence of reality.
There is some extremely important information in people's belief in God, and it's not to our advantage to lose that information.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I feel hurt and persecuted by the literal fundamentalists on this thread.
Trip7 in particular has acted very unChristianlike by attacking my back pain
and suggesting that I am drug addled and not really in need of pain meds.
Gobee continually assaults my senses, and he refuses to talk about it.
If I can't turn to men of God, then who can I turn to?
Guess I will have to follow the bible's teachings and sell my wife into slavery.
Or beat the crap out of my child, or else he will be "spoiled".
Maybe sacrificing my daughter will makes things ok again.
Sigh, so little time and so much torture and murdering left to do to be saved.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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^^^
Makes a great gag gift for the secret santa or office party!
As a kid, my dad used to tell me frequently that there are more people today that believe the earth is flat than any other time in history. (He's not a flat-earther). Apparently there is a place out in the Mojave that these people use to prove their "truth".
Oh well, back to listening to a little "music of the spheres" (Eine kline spheremusik?)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dr. F.-
I'm pulling a Fructose on you and telling you need to refine your definitions.
This is what Christian Science looks like
In fact Christian Science as you have spelled it is a modern interpretation of Christianity founded by Mary Baker Eddy. They have no objections to modern science except for its application to medicine and their own members.
Christian Science in regard to astronomy is an incorrect term. The model came from Aristotle. European Medieval Science would be a better term since Jews, Muslims, and nature worshipping religions such as the Druids etc. upheld this view until Galileo's knowledge became accepted. It took even longer for Gallileo's views to reach Asia.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that face judgment." Hebrews 9:27
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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i have no time to waste on such futile endeavors Maybe we should let him and this thread rest in peace So, frankly i could care less about the lost God haters here any longer
You keep bowing out, but then you come back. If you're questioning whether to "stay or should you go?", you know what more than a few of us vote for. And feel free to invite your friends along too.
I know you can't, (just like the rest of us...)
Now if I could just get this hook out of my cheek...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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skeptic- "I have no time to waste on such futile endeavors."
Why didn't you cut/paste the whole quote?
I posted: "I have no time to waste on such futile endeavors(you) goodbye."
I wasn't saying goodbye to the thread, I was saying it to you. And then you said "Ah, you hurt my fillings." And continue to persist in twisting the dialogue/discussion.
Obviously I am very threatening to your atheist beliefs, good. As is Go-B...GOOD!
I like Go-B's tactics. Simply sharing Gods Word and Wisdom. I think I will do likewise. It is meant to stir up peoples hearts and souls/spirits.
"Maybe we should let him(JDF)and this thread rest."
The key word here is "WE"...
I ignored the thread for over a month, came back to read a few of Go-B's quotes, couldn't help but respond to Dr.F's question about why does God send people to hell. He came up with that on his own initiative, I felt compelled to respond. And like I told him, God created heaven for Him and all of His children created in His image(mankind).
It is truly sad that many reject Him, and His promise of eternal life. And choose eternal spiritual death(hell)instead. Jesus said that hell(the lake of fire/outer darkness)was created for the devil and his angels, not mankind. There are only two places to go, if you reject Him, then it is your choice, certainly not His.
JDF asked "Why do so many people believe in God(Serious Question)."
I believe JDF was "Serious"...that is why he put it(Serious Question)in parenthesis!
I continue to take JDF's question, and my belief in God "Seriously"
Edit:
Dr.F- "God is sure mad at us atheist. What will He do send us to hell with the...."
that is why I gave the answer i did.
And then Skeptimistic comes on and accuses me of trying to force my beliefs on "him". Hardly...typical atheistic tactic of putting blame/guilt on anyone who doesn't adhere to their "beliefs".
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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Weschrist - maybe we misunderstand each other.
I'm not saying that the important information in people's belief in God is that the earth is 6000 years old. My sense is that the information is that we are each a part of a larger self. That larger self is helping itself hold onto that information by maintaining many people's belief in God, even in the face of many of the disadvantages of them maintaining associated beliefs. I think that's what the OP was asking about.
We can help our larger self by each understanding and valuing that information. When we do that, we can free others to stop defending it with the federation of disadvantageous associated beliefs, and they can help us create a better us.
It's not them - it's us. We're all in it together.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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It is meant to stir up peoples hearts and souls/spirits.
You might want to rethink that. I know it has the exact opposite effect on most people I talk to, and that includes my devout christian friends.
God created heaven for Him and all of His children
So who created hell? "God, as a punishment for satan and his like" you say? But who created satan? Oh yeah, god. So why doesn't god just get rid of satan? Isn't god all powerful? Doesn't "he" love "his" children? Would you let a child-raping meth addict live in your house while you just turn a blind eye to his misdeeds? Certainly you wouldn't, especially not for thousands of years. If god can't just off satan, then it follows he's not all-powerful then. So if he's not all powerful, then who created the universe? Isn't that the god we should be worshiping? Sounds like your version of god is either mean-spirited or pretty wimpy.
As someone who claims to have a knowledge of scientific principles (I assume, since you are an O.T.), you are likely aware of Occam's Razor. Your system of god/jesus/resurrection/salvation is pretty complex and requires a lot of ifs ands and buts. The elegantly simple (and therefore most likely) explanation is that the whole thing is just nature doing its thing- no "god" needed.
Your turn... (how's that hook feeling? I'm quite enjoying mine!)
reply to above edit:
trying to force my beliefs on "him"
Not quite- I object to your (and by "your" I mean the fundamental conservative movement) trying to define the laws of this country in a very narrow and xtian-centered way. My basic point is that this is a country founded on freedom of religion (which includes non-religion) and that just because you or I believe one particular view doesn't make it more right than our neighbors' for society at large. The basic objections to abortion, euthanasia, etc always boil down to how one defines morality. For each of us that's different. You choose to live by the bible, I choose not to. You are free to not have an abortion or to not choose euthanasia. By making laws that limit those choices based on your views, you have now "inflicted" your religious tenets on me. And that's unamerican.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skept- "You might want to rethink that. I know it has the exact opposite effect on most people I talk to, and that includes my devout christian friends."
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper then any two edged sword piercing even two the division of soul and spirit, of bone and morrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Bone and marrow is an analogy for soul and spirit. Bone being the outer hard part = soul(self defined/who I am/personality, etc.) Marrow being the soft, life giving inner part = spirit(that which was given to relate to God). It gets you to think about what motives and attitudes you are acting upon. Cuts deep into the soul to the spirit of man. Convicts men of wrong attitudes motives.
The word/scripture, speaks to that part of man(spirit)and if he is a Christian shows him the right way to go in life(path). This is sometimes creates conflict with the soul of man, that soulful aspect that wants to please the man's lusts, which may not be have others, or God, or the mans own long term consequences of such actions taken into consideration.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skept- "So why doesn't God get rid of satan.?"
God could have, still can, and will "get rid of Satan" when the time comes; After the Melliniam when He casts him into the "Lake of Fire".
He didn't get rid of him when he rebelled and 1/3(one third)of the angels followed him(Satan)because the remaining angels would have stayed/continued to stay and obey Him because of fear, not out of love!
That is integral in God's plan, that love not fear is the motivator behind our choice to follow Him.
God has the power to destroy the earth and man again, as He did with the flood. He promised to never again do it with a flood.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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skepti- "non-sequitor."
How so?
Care to elaborate on: "it has the exact opposite effect on most people" and be sure to include your "devout christian friends.".
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Hey! gob came up with his own (more or less) thought! Congratulations!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wes- "Sounds like the M.D. was a good christian, who else would call someone else's descision about their own life an outrage?
Well, to begin with, the good Dr.(that I was working with)was referring to the descision that his fellow doctor made "outrageous" in regards to letting this physically healthy man, who had no reason to die at the age of 59 other than he no longer wanted to live(we call that depression/mental illness)and decided to kill himself by starving himself to death.
Well this is called suicide. When a person is suicidal and threatens to take ones life, they are a risk to themselves and given help.
If someone is going to jump off a bridge, they hopefully are stopped, and they are placed in a psych ward and given help.
weschrist, you are obviously one of the people that would be cheering them on to jump. How pathetic.
wes- "Sounds like he was a good christian"
No, the doctor was not a Christian.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Ok, here we go-
After the Melliniam And when will this "melliniam" (I assume you mean millennium) occur? Haven't we had 2 already?
God's plan, that love not fear is the motivator Really? and this "lake of fire" is all about love, eh? Kinda interesting that sooo many preachers & priests throw this "hell" in our faces- but hey, it's all about love...
If you accept that god created the universe, then he created everything in it, and therefore he created evil. To say that evil was satan's idea is to say that god isn't all powerful. Why would god create evil if he wanted everyone to love one another? Seems like a pretty twisted dude. And if he's not omniscient, omnipotent & omnipresent, then he's not the top god. So take me to his leader.
Non-sequitur for that post, but you tried to address it in the following post.
"The opposite effect" means that people are turned away from your message. My devout friends (and I literally have dozens- christian, catholic, buddhist, hindu, muslim) don't go around spouting chapter & verse. They find a falseness in those who have to continually profess their love of god in that manner. Like you're desperate. Actions, as I said in an earlier post to gob, speak louder than words. I'm more interested in people who give their time freely doing good works than those who bend my ear just cheerleading. Without good deeds, your words are just empty promises.
Any other questions I can help with?
oops, edit:
When a person is suicidal and threatens to take ones life... So now you're playing god? Mighty presumptuous of you. Who says that a person can't decide his own fate? It's his life, not yours. I agree that he was likely depressed and should be offered counseling, but it's his choice to accept/reject. Again, this boils down to your personal morality. By blocking his free choice, you've imposed your religious rules on him. Feel free to do that in whatever country has the bible as its official religion, but not america.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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skept!
There are laws. Prior to 1972 people chose to outlaw abortion.
When a majority of like minded judges filled the supreme court(1972)that law was overturned. Well, the people voted for the president that put those judges in place, so the law is in effect untel those seats are filled by a majority of like minded judges that see otherwise(probably not until 20+ yrs)s.
The Bible does call for a righteous indignation to be voiced if a law goes against Gods law(simply said). So, I will vote accordingly to put people into office who will eventually elect judges that represent the will of the people(75% or more are against abortion).
You are saying that those who fought against slavery, even though it was lawful, were living by there own "moral choices". Your argument makes about as much sense as them using it to allow slavery.
I haven't gone into any of that here, I simply answered questions regarding the OP's "Serious Question" of why I believe in God.
Dr.F asked about "Hell", I answered.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Crimony your spelling sucks!
The common thread in my arguments is the right to choose to live life as one sees fit. But if your "freedom" impinges on someone else's personal rights, then it's not defensible. Slavery impinges on the slave's personal right to autonomy.
75% or more are against abortion
And where did you get that statistic? I believe that there are probably more than 50% of americans who don't think abortion is a good option, but I'm pretty sure that less than 50% would want the right to choose taken away.
Here's the results of last year's gallup poll according to Wiki:
2009 Jul 17-19
Legal under any circumstances 21%
Legal only under certain circumstances 57%
Illegal in all circumstances 18%
No opinion 4%
So clearly, more than 78% support choice at some level. Will of the people?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skeptic!
Sorry about the mistake in regards to % of for/against. Like I have said many times, it is not my focus. Besides, the situation in America in regards to the moral issues, falls heavily on the shoulders of the Christians not being a good witness/example of how to live, etc. The only way revival is going to take place in a country is when the Church repents/gets on their knees and asks for forgiveness. God deals with sin in the church first. Perhaps there is a huge house cleaning about to take place.
I focus on living a holy/Godly life. And if others want to know why(just like JDF asked)and have "Serious Questions" I will attempt to answer. But the majority of posters, the ones who have hijacked this thread, have no desire to find out the "Why!" and are only intent on destroying the "beliefs" of the ones that do "believe in God." That is who I have no time for!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Stick by your guns then, by all means.
But I've asked some serious questions regarding the very nature of god that have gone unanswered by those here who claim to know. These are difficult questions, I know. But sorting out just how evil has come to exist despite an all-powerful, loving god goes to the root of "why do people believe in god?" (at least for me)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"The moral situation falls heavily on Christians..."
"When I shut up the heavens and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7 13-14
He is speaking to the church, and more specifically, speaking to the church/body of Christ here in America. Sit back and take notice.
Like I said earlier, it is the church where revival/judgment starts. He is/will do a spiritual house cleaning by judging the church first. That is the way it works.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skept!
Yes, that was an excellent question. And I have done my best on various times here on this thread, and a few others on S/T (Christians take a called strike...")etc. And I said there and will say again here, I am not a pastor, and I don't believe that even pastors or theologians of the highest degree can fully answer that question.
But I will simply add to what i already said a few posts above(He could have destroyed Satan)that He wanted us to believe in Him and love Him. The only way that I can imagine or comprehend that occurring is if we had free choice. The angels were created with that free choice, just like Adam and Eve, and everyone else. A&E were in Paradise/Eden and as close to God as a person ever was. We would have done the very same thing they did. Therefore we inherited that nature.
Man could not follow the Law, that was shown in the long and drawn out process of the Hebrews/Israel. So God Himself came down and payed the price.
Evil in the world is a result of the fall of man, and man giving the right to rule over the earth "and all that dwells there in..." to Satan.
This all sounds absurd, but it is true. There is a spiritual realm.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Thanks for the effort. Doesn't quite put a cap on it for me.
This is one of the basic questions that has haunted man since the inception of organized religion, and I don't really expect anyone here to be able to answer it by asserting god exists to my satisfaction.
As I have said, I spent a lot of years searching, but always came up short. Only when I looked deep inside myself and put together the evidence did I realize what I consider to be the truth.
To each his own. 'nuff said (I hope...)
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WBraun
climber
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Since you don't have any clue what so ever of the soul, it's constitutional position, and how it works, your whole game is a useless childish nonsense.
You're no scientist.
Just a little kid guessing ......
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Interesting course you're charting. Might've deserved its own thread, but I see fully why we are discussing it here.
I guess I'm a little unclear on your definition of "Startling" (btw- do you mean "starling" instead- like the bird?). When you say anthropy are you meaning humans only, or do you mean to include other sentient species?
Personally, I would say I'm pretty solidly in your "robin" camp. My difficulty lies with the whole cosmology. If there was a point where nothing existed, then suddenly there was something, what's that all about? Is there just one universe? Are there multiple universes kinda like plastic balls in a kid's jumpy pen? It can all be parsed down to energy quanta, but where did that energy come from? What lies beyond? That's where religion keeps its tentative hold.
Once things came into existence, then I'm down with random combinations leading to life akin to the Urey -Miller primordial soup experiment. I think self-awareness developed at some point as an evolutionary advantage. The big problem is that there is no meaningful & reproducible way to measure this awareness in a way that could exclude the possibility of a "soul." Using current imaging techniques can only show alive vs dead. If the "soul" leaves the body at death, how can this be demonstrated or disproven?
edit: So werner, you're so smart; tell us what a soul is. And please be detailed and specific...
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Pate seems so bold when HIDING behind an internet psuedo name. Werner said it right and it
certainly applies to Pate:
"The way you are behaving you are likely to be reincarnated as a urinal".
Doug
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scarface
Trad climber
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High Fruity,
Your challenge is contained in this part of your set-up.
Robins accept the mechanistic origin and evolution of life and living things (as revealed by science) and the Starlings do not.
Firstly, it is black or white. This mode of thought has been going the way of the dinosaur for some time. In fact, many humans, scientist, religious types, even some atheists have let go of it. Even from way back. There is a bigger tradition (thousands of years) than you think.
Secondly, science doesn't come down on a mechanistic view of life as you suggest. You're making this up. A lot of the industrial revolution and technology bows to a mechanistic view, but this is changing.
Quit trying to slip stuff into the white space.
You're a language narcissist. May I suggest you dial 1-800-help-me.
SF
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WBraun
climber
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If the "soul" leaves the body at death, how can this be demonstrated or disproven?"
Classic case of over educated people.
When the soul leaves the body it's dead, so simple.
But obviously you can't see that as your head is filled to the brim with "Science".
When you turn off the engine and get out of the car it's dead, until a living entity turns it back on (crude example).
And Fruitcake: Good thing you have that little chihuahua Pate to come to your defense, you'll need him.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Call Larry the Cable Guy when you need a heart bypass surgery.
I mean really, what do those elite "science" people know about cardiology?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sigh...
Wern- I guess in your book ignorance is a good thing, education is bad. That's a sure-fire path to progress!
So if you believe the soul exists, do you believe that people can have out of body experiences? If so, are they dead when they're out taking a "spin around the block" so to say? Or did you mean to say, as your grammar implies, that the soul is dead once it leaves the body?...
If the "soul" leaves the body at death The point of using "if" in that sentence was more to say, "given that the soul exists..." I'm sure even you could've figured that out with a little extra thought.
Since you don't have any clue what so ever of the soul, it's constitutional position, and how it works Still waiting for you to impress us with your depth of knowledge on the subject. If you're going to hold forth on being such an expert, then don't be spineless. Let's hear it, Loud & Proud!
Dood- I'm sure w can speak for himself. But since you've weighed in, your comment doesn't define anything about the essential nature of the "soul".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Education, knowledge, science. Who cares?
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scarface
Trad climber
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Norton, I thought you blew a fuse..
Werner didn't mock science. He mocked the adolescent folks on this thread who lay claim to all things science.
SF
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WBraun
climber
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Yes scarface got it right.
skeptic I'm not here to impress anyone the least which be you.
I already gave my answer although it can be expounded infinitely from the simple beginning I gave up thread.
Just as one can explain the nature of the ocean by taking just one drop out of it.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Werner- when you want to stop sniping & spewing your little hate turds to actually contribute something well-reasoned and meaningful to the topic at hand, I'm all ears. Until then you're no better than those you're accusing of being obtuse & jejune. (Yeah, I know those are big words, but they should be no problem for a person of your intellect.)
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WBraun
climber
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Again
I already gave my answer up thread but you seem to not be able to read nor understand.
It's too simple for a complex overloaded mind like yours.
Therefore you only see what you project and you take offense at what you see in the mirror of your own self.
It's never going to come the way YOU want it ......
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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The human soul is the organ of our self-consciousness
Ok! now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for that excellent start. I'll give it some consideration and see if I've got more questions perhaps you can help with.
See Werner- it's not that hard. Much more descriptive and reasoned than anything I can remember reading from you on any subject you've chimed in on. Ever. Sorry you have this chip on your shoulder about educated discourse. It's something you really need to work on; it (ignorance) casts a bad light on you.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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I think it's time for another monkey pic
So would this guy have a soul or not?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Interesting question.
I would say yes.
http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/f/animalsinheaven.htm
The Good Book says that a Sparrow doesn't fall without GOD being there. They must have a spirit then. Why would GOD then care if they didn't. Why would he bother to be there at the end if it didn't matter, if that was their end to be no more. It wouldn't make sense. I would imagine he is there to accept their spirit coming back to him.
I would like to think they will all be there. It will be an overwhelming Zoo. And loved pets could indeed be there. My opinion. Bear 46, though will probably be locked up. Sad.
I do not think they need salvation like man does. They are not at the same creation level as man. The animals were made, and Man has dominion over them. We aren't doing a good job of taking care of them are we? We can do better.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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But Klimmer, I have seen animals show guilt like dogs and cats and even monkeys act out when they have been caught doing something their masters didnt want them to do.
Does not this soul want redemption? We have dominion over slaves too.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Ephesians 4:32, Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Weschrist-
You photo above is of chimpanzees not monkeys.
Meanwhile, can you explain to me what centaur consciousness is in your diagram above?
Fructose-
What is your souce for Goodall's interpretation of human evolutionary consciousness? I've never read that about her before.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
I've lost track...
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Dalai Lama:
We can think of honesty and dishonesty in terms of the relationship between appearance and reality. Sometimes these synchronize, often they do not; but when they do, that is honesty, as I understand it. So we are honest when our actions are what they seem to be. When we pretend to be one thing but in reality we are something else, suspicion develops in others, causing fear.
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WBraun
climber
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It's obvious to you too even though you can't understand it but you experience it yourself every single breath.
Animals never go against their own true nature so there's no real problem.
Humans act as animals or thru their real nature act as humans according to the consciousness they've developed.
Humans act worst than any animal at times when they under the severe spell of the illusionary energy.
You've witnessed this also .....
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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I believe that reality is rational.
I believe that there’s a rational reason why we observe that the large majority of people believe in God. I don’t believe that that rational reason is wrong – I believe that it’s just right.
What is the alternative to that belief? Does people’s belief in God create (or is it evidence of) an irrational reality?
We have access to a lot of information. We can’t store every bit of information in our limited memories. As we refine our scientific theories, we encode more and more information into a single theory. When we create a new theory that includes all of the valuable information from the old theory, along with some new valuable information, we no longer need to store that information - we can use the space for something else. Why do we do that? It’s good for us, isn’t it?
Who created our latest scientific theory? We did, a lot of us working together, with our observations and analysis of those observations. We did it in steps, one theory building on the previous, conserving the salient information from the previous. We didn’t do it individually, just one of us with our individual powers of perception and reasoning.
Our beliefs are not solely a result of our own individual thought processes in our individual brain. There’s more to us than that.
We’re influenced by the genetic information that is given to us at birth, and the environmental information that we receive through our perceptions, including other people influencing us. Where does that information come from?
Most people still believe in God. Is that irrational?
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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Thanks HFCS. To me, that seems to be what we're stuck with. Do we chose to believe that we live in a miserable reality or a good one?
We each have our own uniquely incomplete set of information about reality. Sometimes we use that set of information to measure others’ beliefs and behaviors, and conclude that they’re wrong – they shouldn’t believe and behave as they do.
But reality uses it’s complete set of information, and concludes that they’re right – they should believe and behave as they do. And reality is always right about it – they do believe and behave as they do!
So whose information should we each believe?
Most people believe in God.
Most people also believe in science – that we can use past observations of reality to predict future behaviors. And we believe that we have free will to choose whatever belief or behavior we wish, that we’re individually responsible for those choices, and that those choices change (or create) reality. Is that combination of beliefs irrational? How can we use science to predict future reality using past observations if we're free to change that reality with our choices?
I believe that our perception of contradictions like that is just a reflection of our incomplete information – that actually there are no contradictions. I think that can be interpreted as both a belief in science and a belief in God.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Wescrist-
I can't for the life of me think why someone would label the highest level of understanding after the Centaurs who were half horse and half human, often shown in ancient art as raping young women with enormous phalluses. This is progress?
I have the same, though lesser problem, with Fructose's use of Diakrates for the new name of God to replace Jehovah. I don't think any of us should be looking to either the pagan or Christian past for the symbols of the future. We need symbols that are global and without so much baggage.
And yes I do know my monkeys from my apes as I teach physical anthropology sometimes. I also teach comparative religion. I am definitely not trying to convert anybody to a particular religious view.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
Thanks for taking the time to give me the Goodall references. I have ordered her latest biographical book.
The question you pose regarding evolution - robins and starlings - is an interesting one which I have often pondered but come to no fixed conclusions about.
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WBraun
climber
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Of course one can make up any name for water as it just describes water and ones thirst in the desert will never be quenched by saying the word water.
One needs the actual substance water.
On the spiritual platform the actual names of God such as Jehovah, Yahweh, Kṛṣṇa, Vasudeva are non different from him. These are transcendental sound vibrations.
So trying to rename God according to ones mental speculations show complete utter lack of true understanding leading to creating just another dogmatic sectarian religion to mislead oneself and others.
The cheaters and the cheated band together to mislead each other .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Weschrist-
You have me reading up on Greek mythology which is not a bad thing to do. I agree that Chiron would definitely be the better word to use than centaur. Quite a lot of interesting history there.
You're also right that they're only words but words are important. I know from teaching comparative religion how difficult it is to use neutral words that don't push someone's buttons. Still, western culture has already been through the use of Greek to define both pagan and Christian beliefs. I think we need a new language.
I also agree that the suppression of our animal instincts instead of their recognition and transformation, has got the West into a lot of trouble. Better than Chiron even in my books, would be the use of the word tantra as it deals specifically with humans and their transformation rather than some phantastical half human, half animal form.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Romans 8:23, we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we await for it with patience.
Romans 12:2, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Ephesians 4:1, walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Oct 10, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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Go-B, I love you, but even I, another Christian, wishes you would do more than simply cite Scripture. Even among Christians, the Gospel is not always self-explanatory. Risk some interpretation for us. Say something about what it means to try to live out what is written.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 01:45am PT
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Go-B- "By the witness of Moses (Law), and Elijah (Prophets)..."
Thanks for that explanation! I never understood why they(Moses & Elijah)appeared with Jesus.
Now I do.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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A survey recently conducted by the Pew Research Centre indicates that atheists, agnostics, Jews and Mormons tend to have more knowledges of the core teachings, traditions, holy books, founders and beliefs of the major world religions. Most of the various brands of christianity tend to be less well informed, particularly the evangelicals.
On average, Americans correctly answer 16 of the 32 religious knowledge questions on the survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life. Atheists and agnostics average 20.9 correct answers. Jews and Mormons do about as well, averaging 20.5 and 20.3 correct answers, respectively. Protestants as a whole average 16 correct answers; Catholics as a whole, 14.7. Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons perform better than other groups on the survey even after controlling for differing levels of education.
I guess if we could just educate the believers, we could have an intelligent discussion with them about their religions.
http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx
And here's a skill-testing poll about religions and their histories:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/opinion/10kristof.html?src=me&ref=homepage
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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Wonder!
Beautiful pictures. A glimpse into the past and the exquisite culture of India.
Wade!
Reminds me of "A Man Called Horse". Actually I was familiar with the "Ghost Dance" long before that movie made it's debut. My father gave me a bow and some arrows for my 8th birthday, and for the next 5yrs. i devoured every book and article on the Native Americans.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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MH, that may be true but the Evangelicals have the greater knowledge of the Old and New Testament(Bible)than any of the groups. Of course that is what is important to them, not the other "various world religions".
We discussed this at length following a similar post by Mr. Donini a while back.
edit: "On questions about Christianity - including a battery of questions about the Bible - Mormons(7.9% right out of 12)and White Evangelical Protestants(7.3% out of 12)show the highest knowledge."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:10am PT
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Jennie, I was typing my edit at the same time as you were typing your post. I had to re-read the article to get the specifics.
BTW, if you go back to the discussion we had about a week or two ago, you will see that I gave everyone, including Mormons their due respect in regards to this little poll. And likewise on another thread that weschrist started in response to this same article, making the same boisterous claims as MH and Donini...go figure.
I find it rather humorous that three of the more vociferous atheist amongst us(MH/Donini/Weschrist)find it necessary to make a claim of being more knowledgeable in religions of the world somehow puts them in a more superior position in regards to Christians ability to discuss our religion.
Mighty Hiker- "I guess if we could just educate the believers, we could have an intelligent discussion with them about their religions."
And then he leaves a link to the article from which I post here:
"On questions about Christianity - including a battery of questions about the Bible - Mormons and whit Evangelical Protestants show the highest knowledge."
So evidently MH, us "believers" in Jesus don't need to be "educated" by the atheist and agnostics...so fire away!
edit: Of course there are believers other than the Christian "believers" I'll let them speak for themselves.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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Then how is it you didn't know why Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration? It seems to me that anyone thinking about its significance would have figured out that they represented the highest of the two traditions of the Old Testament. To use Buddhist and Hindu terminology, they were the lineage gurus of Jesus.
The Transfiguration by the way, was a dramatic demonstration of what individuals go through at certain point in the mystical life. It corresponds to what the Hindus and Buddhists from India call seeing the Thousand Petaled Lotus, the Zen people call Satori, the Orthodox Christians, the Uncreated Light, the Pentacostals the Baptism of Fire etc.
The world's Scriptures were originally based on internal experiences of people all over this planet and are better understood from that experience IMHO than as legalistic documents. All too often I fear, people get so involved with memorizing chapter and verse that they forget the obvious, like how to make observations and connections on one's own.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:36am PT
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Jan- Then how is it why you didn't know why Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration?"
It wasn't that i didn't know why, I had come to a different conclusion which i will get to in a moment.
I have never made a big effort to memorize verses, but it is a good practice in regards to being prepared to use examples in scripture to support your beliefs. I have become acquainted with many scripture verses over the years from studying the Bible and therefore have many memorized.
In regards to Moses an Elijah, of course I new Moses was a representative of the Law, the Ten Commandments. And Elijah is my favorite Prophet, and 1 Kings 18 is one of my favorite chapters in the OT.
I always looked at it from the perspective that God was making it clear to Peter, James and John that Jesus was higher then Elijah and Moses.
Peter, James and John wanted to make three Tabernacles for each of them(Jesus, Elijah, and Moses)therefor they considered them equal. But God took away Moses and Elijah, and left Jesus suspended in glory and then stated "This is My only begotten Son, in whom I am well pleased." At which Peter, James and John fell down and worshiped Him. That is the reason that I felt God had Moses and Elijah present. To make it clear to P, J & J that Jesus was the Son of God, and therefor equal to God. I haven't spent any time doing an in depth study of the Transfiguration.
edit: So, I believe that Jesus was giving Peter, James and John a view of the Kingdom. And that the Old Testament saints represented by Moses(Law)and Elijah(Prophets) are one church with the New Covenant saints(believers)who they(P, J & J)represented. They, together, would be one united church with Jesus Christ at it's head.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:38am PT
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Thanks for predicating farther on your scriptural knowledge post,TripL7. I know committed Evangelicals are sincere about bible study.
I’d suggest that Mighty Hiker’s statement was made as tongue-in-cheek humor rather than an expression of contempt. Though serious about his beliefs, Anders likes provoking smiles more than engendering altercations.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:54am PT
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Jennie, yes i agree with you about Anders. If I were an agnostic or atheist, I would have found it difficult to not do likewise. Such opportunities are hard to pass up.
But it gets kind of old on this side of the fence, especially after viewing similar comments on such shows as Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, and Bill Maher, etc. Get's old, and increasingly misrepresented.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 06:39am PT
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Jan- "It seems to me that anyone thinking about it's significance would have figured out they represented the highest of the two traditions of the Old Testament."
Where did i state that I didn't understand who Elijah and Moses represent? Moses has represented the Law throughout the Old & New Testament. And Elijah was one of the prophets. That they are representative of the Law and the prophets wasn't what I was unclear of. That is obvious.
And I am fully aware that Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets(the Messiah)with his sacrificial death. I can also see how Peter wanted to build three Tab. by giving equal weight to to the three. Peter would later call Jesus "the chief cornerstone".
go-B's post simply got me tying some things together, some things i haven't given a lot of thought to in a long time.
Jan- "The Pentecostals Baptism of Fire."
This has nothing to do with the Transfiguration, it is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit similar to what took place at Pentecost in the first chapters of Acts. That is where Pentecostal's got there name. The Holy Spirit fell down on men like tongues of fire.
I hope this, and your further study and meditation on the Word/Bible will lead you to new understanding, meaning and relationship with Jesus Christ.
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scarface
Trad climber
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Oct 11, 2010 - 10:49am PT
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I thought it was the Old Testicle and the New Testicle.
You know, reflecting the paternal nature of Christianity.
SF
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2010 - 10:50am PT
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Trip-
I am well aware of the difference between the Transfiguration and Pentecost and I don't want to get into a technical discussion with you. The point I am making is that there is more than one way to interpret these events, that people of other religions have experienced similar things, and that all religious people have to be careful not to get so caught up in memorizing words, that they forget the spirit behind the words.
In our global culture, Christians do not have a monopoly on interpretation of Scripture, even their own. You and others may insist that your interpretation is correct, but that will not stop other people from understanding it in a different way, especially if they have their own internal experiences and other Scriptures to compare to.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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Weschrist-
Not all religions kill each other over language and scriptures although that is all too common among the exclusivist monotheistic religions that originated in the Middle East.
My suggestion to use a language other than Greek was in the hope that we might get a fresh start with language that is not associated with all the negativity that has gone before.
Meanwhile, I'm wondering what book/author your diagram came from as it looked like quite an interesting and comprehensive scheme even if centaur is not one of my favorite words.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
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Evangelicals have the greater knowledge of the Old and New Testament(Bible)than any of the groups There is a very great deal about the origins and evolution of Christianity (more accurately, Paulism) that you won't learn from reading the bible.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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Should've known, you can't win in today's world- critics on all sides.
Not all observations that don't agree with your own are criticisms. Sometimes they're just differences of opinion.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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Thanks Weschrist!
I like Ken Wilbur too. One of my all time favorite books in this field is his 1973 work, The Spectrum of Consciousness. To me, he represents the way forward.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
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the exclusivist monotheistic religions that originated in the Middle East. The roots of Paulism are, amongst many other things, found in Mesopotamian creation myths, Greek intellectualism and historicism, and so on. Zoroastrianism, which appeared in Bactria (now Afghanistan - central Asia) in perhaps 800 BCE, was the first known monotheistic religion, and as it was adopted by the Persians, the Jews and so Christians were well aware of it. The Eygptians also briefly gave a kind of monotheism a try, but it didn't take. But possibly the Jews at least acquired something of it.
All religions are human-developed and syncretist.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Oct 11, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
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The syncretic nature of all mythology is, upon a close examination, a self evident truth, though few on this thread seem to understand this simple idea, an idea that mitigates against the specific correctness of any existing religious dogma... congratulations mighty hiker!
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Oct 14, 2010 - 06:55pm PT
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1 Corinthians 2:9, but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 14, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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Can we all agree that this is THE most beautiful motor ever EVOLVED?
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 14, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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"Make one fast choice now and no second! Come, clear your heart and quickly walk with me into Brahma, while there is time!"
Ramayana
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Oct 15, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
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Dr. F.,
Thanks for posting.
TG
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
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in your mindless advance
Oh oh .....
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Oct 17, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 18, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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"Adoration unto the supreme Being, pure, eternal and all-pervading, the changeless Reality, the one Being, meditating upon whom sages attain liberation, eternal and undifferentiated, the One out of whom the visible world, the scene of diversity, comes into existence, in whom it rests, and to whom it returns in the end when the world-cycles come to a close."
Brahmapurana
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Oct 23, 2010 - 08:20am PT
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NASB-Psalm 72:3, Let the mountains bring peace to the people,
And the hills, in righteousness.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel,
Who alone works wonders.
19 And blessed be His glorious name forever;
And may the whole earth be filled with His glory
Amen, and Amen.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Oct 24, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Deuteronomy 32:1, “Give ear, O heavens, and I will speak,
and let the earth hear the words of my mouth.
2 May my teaching drop as the rain,
my speech distill as the dew,
like gentle rain upon the tender grass,
and like showers upon the herb.
3 For I will proclaim the name of the Lord;
ascribe greatness to our God!
4 “The Rock, his work is perfect,
for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
just and upright is he.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 24, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Big on good old Deuteronomy today, Gobee?
Here is some more from your hero.
More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Oct 24, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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Numbers 31:35, 40 describes the sacrifice of 32 virgin girls for the glory of God ("the Lord's tribute" means sacrifice as burnt offerings).
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 24, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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Sounds like fun.
One woman outside began screaming at the Christians to kill each other and rape children.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
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Once again God approves of forcible rape.
You said there is no God.
And now say there is one.
You wouldn't know nor recognize God if you met him face to face although in every breath in your entire life you are face to face with him.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
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It was written by God.
You are wrong.
And God says that we should rape, murder, and torture each other.
You are wrong again.
You need help.
The kind money can't buy ......
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 24, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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Cliffhanger,
Not so, they were given as a "Heave offering" to the priests, and most likely became their servants.
God forbade child sacrifice. That is what all the tribes were doing(sacrificing children). It(human sacrifice)was an abomination to God, and the reason He had all the men and women(who had born and sacrificed children)killed. It was the women who were indoctrinating the Israelite men into Baal/Ashteroth worship and human(child)sacrifice. These people were hideously evil. They were Satanic worshipers, and every woman who had born children had offered their first born as a fertility sacrifice to Ashteroth, the Canaanite fertility goddess. She was worshiped for fertility, along with Baal who was worshiped for a plentiful harvest, success in battle, etc.
These tribes were exceedingly evil. Any women who had born at least one child had dutifully, and willingly had it sacrificed to an idol, beginning with sacrificing their first born to Ashteroth. The women were the most guilty in teaching the men(Israelite)whom they were taken by in marriage, and who integrated their religion(Baal & Ashteroth worship)into their own. This brought the wrath of God upon both the Canaanite's and the Israelite peoples.
"Have you allowed all the women to live? Their the ones who followed Balaam's(a false prophet)advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the Lord..." Numbers 31:15(Moses speaking).
You guys are pulling verses out of scripture and judging them/twisting them without having the slightest idea of there contextual significance.
And by the way, it comes as no surprise that Ashteroth is used in incantations by Wicca to this very day.
~777~
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 24, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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Norton- "The bible was NOT written by man. It was written by God."
It was written by man with the spiritual(indwelt Holy Spirit/God the Holy Spirit)inspiration by God.
"All scripture is given by inspiration by God." Timothy 3:16
It is "God breathed" meaning God the Holy Spirit(spiritual breath/life).
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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Skepti- "God says that we should rape murder and torture each other!"
How pathetic an evaluation of the scripture.
First of all, God told no one to rape. You guys are bringing one HELL of a judgment upon your blasphemous souls!!
In the above quotes(Numbers)that you are referring to, He gives an intirely human approach to taking these women(virgins)as wives. First of all, He requires a thirty(30)day's of mourning by the women for their families, before they even began the step's towards marriage...you call this rape??
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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And ....
Now you're the authority on Christians.
You wouldn't recognize a real christian if you saw one face to face.
Again ....
Money can't buy the help you need ....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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Yes, I love it when atheists start dictating who is or is not a Christian!
Once again Norton, only a minority of Christians maintain these days that the Bible is the literal word of God. Just because fundamentalist Christians are the ones who post here does not change the fact that they are in the minority.
One of my big complaints with the Old Testament is that it blames women for most sin - clearly a male dictated document. Also that it picks and chooses. If foreign women sacrifice children that is evil, if patriarch Abraham goes up on the mountain to sacrifice his only son, that is a sign of great faith that is admirable.
Jesus broke through this one sided patriarchal outlook as he went beyond the bonds of so many other social stereotypes of his day. Unfortunately, Paul reverted right back. I say a true Christian is one who follows Christ and not the Old Testament or the Apostle Paul.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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You guys are pulling verses out of scripture and judging them/twisting them without having the slightest idea of there contextual significance. Imagine that! I wonder where they got that idea from?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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Just because fundamentalist Christians are the ones who post here does not change the fact that they are in the minority.
Hmm. I'm thinking the same thing can be said for muslims. Problem is, it's the noisy, obnoxious ones that get all the attention. Just as has been asked of the moderate muslims, why don't moderate christians issue a consensus statement distancing themselves from the lunatic fringe?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
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They already have. Most of them made statements of doctrine about the Bible being inspired not literal truth, early in the 20th century already.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
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NOPE
You do NOT get to "cherry pick" which parts of the bible are written by
man and which parts are written by God.
The bible IS the bible. It is the word of God.
Maybe humans sat down and actually wrote it out, BUT they were TOLD by
God what to say.
EVERY WORD. No CHERRY PICKING
God Commands Burning Humans
[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
Josiah and Human Sacrifice
At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)
He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)
Human Sacrifice
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Child Sacrifice
And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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Human sacrifice happened all over the world. Remember those Inca mummies on the tops of Andean peaks? Or all the servants and animals buried alive with their master in China? Confucius by the way, taught against that. Eventually almost all societies gave it up though it seems to be alive and well in some places still.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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Skepti!
Sorry, i meant to address Norton not you! Didn't have anything to do with what you posted. "And God says we are to..." Norton posted it...my bad!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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I used to wonder why GOD would have his chosen people wipe out certain races of people also.
777 said a great deal in regards to this.
In addition, PhD Michael Heiser really explains it well.
After the flood there was still Nephilim. And GOD had Israel wipe out the rest of the remaining Nephilim as much as possible. Remember, Nephilim were an abomination. They were a life form that was not meant to be. A hybrid between Fallen Angels and Fallen Man. Read the Book of Enoch to understand how big, strong, smart, and unbelievably evil they were. They were even into cannibalism.
GOD instructed his chosen, the Jews, Israel to wipe them out. Yes, GOD used them as a tool to do so. That is GOD's right and we don't have a right to question him about it.
Who among us can instruct GOD?
Listen to what PhD Michael Heiser has to say:
Mike Heiser Genesis 6 hybrids, Sons of God, Nephilim 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E3B3C4A6F1D8A9F5
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
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The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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I just read Jello's account of climbing Pumori complete with unseen climbing friend and the voice of his human friend calling for help in the middle of the night from miles away. It reminded me again, that many of us have experiences that do not fit neatly into either the materialist or religionist world view but do convince us that there is more to life and consciousness than both suppose.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/498905/A-solid-companion-first-edit
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Abenda
climber
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Oct 25, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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"There is another world, but it is in this one."
W.B.Yeats
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:38am PT
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Norton- "...burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord, for he commanded it." (Nortons words)!!
First of all, where did God command him to do such and evil thing?
Answer: He(God)didn't.
This was a rash and unrealistic vow by Jephtath, God had no part in it. Read the story. God forbade child sacrifice, or any type of human sacrifice period.
And there were four types of offerings to the Lord, the Alter of Incense(as a symbol of the peoples prayers going up to God). And three others, the burnt offering being one of them. And it required an unblemished lamb or for those who could not afford such a goat or dove. One of these would be offered in place of his daughter, who was being offered as an undefiled virgen to serve in the house of God(the priests)as a servent, etc. for life. That is why she mourned because she would never mary or "know a man" etc. READ THE STORY!!
Regardless, it served as a warning to people to NOT make vows to God. Even Jesus stated this in the N.T.
And I could go on and on if I had the time, but you would simply go to the atheist threads that have all the out of context quotes, and blindly cut and paste to your hearts content...without a clue!
Clueless Norton! Whenever I here your name now days i am reminded of this quote:
"The Queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater then Solomon is here." Luke 11:31
The people of America will especially fall under greater judgment because of hearing of Jesus and rejecting Him. With all the church, Bible, and testimony from Believers that is so prevalent in this day and age(just as prophesied). The Word of God is going out to the ends of the earth, via Missionary's and the Internet, etc.
And Norton is here bringing upon himself one Hell of an eternal damnation. Norton leading the charge into Hell. So much hate for the God of the Holy Bible filling your soul, Norton. If you would only take a few seconds and get on your knees and ask God if He was really who Christian's say He is(Jesus)that you ask for forgiveness and ask Him to take over your life!
But you won't because you HATE Him! Plain and simple. And would not want to spend eternity with Him regardless. So He has no choice other than to grant you your wish. Sad but true.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:02am PT
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Didn't Jesus also teach that his followers should not judge others, but leave that up to God?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:09am PT
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Norton- "This passage condemns humane sacrifice but admits that it happened by early God worshipers."
Yes, exactly what I was talking about in regards to "Numbers" above. God over and over again told His people not to mix and take wives from the pagan culture because they would also take up their practice of child/human sacrifice. So over and over again he brought judgment down on the pagan tribes and the Israelite's.
Jan, the story of Abraham and Isaac was a story of Abraham's faith. And secondly, a preview of what would happen on the very same Mtn. that Abraham brought Isaac to(Moriah)where the Son of God was sacrificed for all mankind. If you have failed to make this connection to the story of Abraham and Isaac, and Jesus(i don't believe you have)then...
What is admiral about it is that Abraham had faith that God would raise Isaac from the dead. He(Abraham was promised on several occasions that he would raise up a great nation from the loins of Abraham, that being Isaac. The only son of Abraham and Sarah(pure Hebrews). God promised to do so, so he believed he was capable of doing what he promised. That was incredible faith. A personal relationship. Not dependent on word of mouth/book knowledge, or personal wisdom, etc. He new the living God, and trusted Him.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:26am PT
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Jan- "Human sacrifice happened all over the world... Eventually most societies gave it up though it seems to be alive and well in some places still."
Yes, how about in good old America?
With well over 50 million abortions in the last 40 years!
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; before you were born I set you apart..." Jeremiah 1:5
And people question why God's wrath would come down on America! He gives people a living soul at conception, this is what the Bible teaches us. If you don't believe the Bible, that doesn't change what it says. But then, you can discuss this with God at the judgment(just sayin, if it just happens to be true). I am certain it is...100% sure. If you are not certain(100% sure)then i would strongly consider giving it(Jesus being the only way)some serious thought, and asking Him to come into your life if He is real. What have you got to lose?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:31am PT
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Jan- "Didn't Jesus also teach that His follower's should not judge others, but leave that up to God?"
No!
Jesus taught that His followers were not to judge other believers, fellow brothers in Christ! He taught them to judge non-believers as He did judge the Pharisee's , etc.!
edit: What i warned Norton about is what will happen to him if he doesn't turn from his wicked beliefs, plain and simple. That is done in hope that he will turn. And i have hope that he will, but only God knows for sure. Otherwise i wouldn't wast my time replying to his posts. Call it judgmental if you must, but God has commanded us to warn the lost(including Norton)of where they are heading.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:10am PT
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Well in that case, thank God that your interpretations are the minority view!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:25am PT
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Yes, how about in good old America?
With well over 50 million abortions in the last 40 years!
Please, whenever you are going to quote numbers like that, cite your source for edification and verification.
You appear to be correct in that, but if you're implying that the US is particularly egregious in performing abortions, perhaps you might want to reconsider, according to this study:
Worldwide abortion rates 1995
scroll down the page to find the table comparing abortion incidence
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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Skepti,
Yes, i gave a conservative estimate of 50 million! Your chart says 1,365,700 abortions for the year of 1996 in The United States. I was not comparing America to other countries rate/ratio, etc. Of course some of these countries have more abortions per capita. i was referring to the gross number, and the flagrant guilt of the American populace, who continue to murder the innocent in the face of the what God has to say in regards to life beginning at conception. America has been confronted with this head on. And is guilty of allowing it. America is going to be held accountable for its actions. Like i said, with churches and preachers and Bibles at everyone's disposal, it knows what the God of the Holy Bible states, and chooses to ignore it/Him. He will judge America. You can say "Hogwash!" or i don't believe that!" I say "Doesn't change what God/Bible says he will do! Judgment is coming America, mark my words!"
The Nation(America)was confronted with a national catastrophe(the banking colapse)with major banks closing/declaring bankruptcy, and so forth. It could have been ten times worse then 1929. What did it do? Turned all it's hopes to a man to solve it's problems(not God).
So God gave them the man of their choosing(Obama). And what did he(Obama)do the very next day(after being elected)? The VERY NEXT DAY! His first presidential action was to sign and set forth the paperwork/legal actions to have abortions during the third trimester legal!! How hideous, and evil! Abortions legal from 7-9 months! And this guy calls himself a Christian? I didn't vote for this/him. The very first thing he did the day after he was elected. He didn't even wait until after his inauguration. And not a word of dissent was spoken from the right or left.
And secondly, the abomination that is taking place in our nation regarding the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, and homosexual rights, etc....!
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light, and light for darkness..." Isaiah 5:20
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
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Trippy-
Is there any reason you believe abortion should be allowed for? (please answer this if possible.)
Again, this boils down to our previous exchanges- Your version of morality is absolutely your right, but you cannot constitutionally justify forcing me to live by those rules.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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Jan,
Matthew 7:1-5 He is telling us to not judge hypocritically "You hypocrite, first remove the plank in your own eye, then you can see clearly to remove the speck in your brothers eye." There is a righteous kind of judgment we are supposed to exercise-with careful discernment. "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." John 7:24
This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope, and with the ultimate goal of bringing repentance in the other person.
"Remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins." James 5:20
We are to speak the truth in love. "Instead, speaking the truth in love..." Ephesians 4:15
"Preach the Word, be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage-with great patience and careful instruction." 2 Timothy 4:2
We are to judge sin(in the Church and the world)but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and it's consequences-the Lord Jesus Christ "Jesus answered, O am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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Skepti- You can't constitutionally justify foring me to live by those rules."
And i wouldn't even think of let alone suggest forcing anyone to live by these rules. This is where you/the left, or whoever has it wrong. It is the Word of God that will judge. You are guilty for not recognizing the conviction of right vs wrong in your own heart...Gods tablet to your conscience. Forcing someone, or a nation to do something does not change their heart! This is where the problem lay's, not in rules and regulations...Laws. Jesus came to set people free from the bondage of the Law.
You are missing the point if you think it is a legal matter. It is a spiritual matter, and this country is lacking!
Edit: Do as you will, but you will suffer the consequences...that is my message.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
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Do as you will, but you will suffer the consequences...that is my message
Message received, understood, disregarded. Thanks for your concern!
Would really like your opinion on what constitutes justifiable abortion though.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Trip7 says:
"And Norton is here bringing upon himself one Hell of an eternal damnation. Norton leading the charge into Hell. So much hate for the God of the Holy Bible filling your soul, Norton."
And THEN he says that Skeptemistic will "suffer the consequences".
Can I PRESUME that Skept will also be joining me in ETERNAL DAMNATION?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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Can I PRESUME that Skept will also be joining me in ETERNAL DAMNATION
All my friends are going to be there! Sure don't want to end up in the same place that the insufferably pious go...
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 05:48pm PT
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Skeptic- "Would really like your opinion on what constitutes justifiable abortion though."
We are speaking of a matter of faith. Jan questioned Abraham's faith. you are questioning my faith. I have total faith in my Creator. We had a similar situation with my great niece. My sister's daughter's daughter. i had a large part in raising my niece, her father was a casualty of the Viet Nam war, and they lived with us for about 5-6 years. My niece and sister's are Christians, but her grandaughter isn't. They had a situation in which the M.D's said the baby was most likely going to be a veggie(don't like that term, they said brain dead i believe)and that she could/would be risking her life to continue with the pregnancy. I encouraged her to continue on and trust God. It would have been a very deep spiritual journey for all involved. They/grand niece decided otherwise. I assured her that her baby boy was in heaven.
I have seen Him work miracles. I have heard Him speak to me and it came to pass(true). It is a deep and trusting relationship. I trust Him for my total life and death. And if He puts a mortal soul in a being, I trust Him to decide on it's time of death, not me.
In Roe vs Wade, five out of the nine judges decided to legalize abortion. A majority of U.S. citizen's were against it. The lady who was Jane Roe in Roe vs Wade is Norma McCorvey; "I am 100% sold out to Jesus, and 100% pro life! No exceptions, no compromise."(Norma McCorvey)! I have heard her personal testimony and her stating that she was not raped by a black man as she had claimed. It was a consensual relationship, and she had lied about it at the behest of her attorney's, along with other lies and fabrications which she believed swayed the vote.
It is America's conscience that is on trail. America knows God's will. Jesus and the Holy Bible show us the will of God. There have been several abominations that have been allowed to become new laws in our nation that are completely against God's will and His Holy word.
The nation is now feeling the effects of us drifting further away from the Almighty, and we are experiencing the lifting of His blessings from us.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Oct 25, 2010 - 05:56pm PT
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I am confused by the Christian understanding, disapproval and abhorrence for abortion.
This disapproval is the primary motivating force against abortion in contemporary western culture.
Don’t Orthodox Christians believe the following:
Life's short. The wink of an eye!
And aren’t we all sinners?
And isn’t the road to salvation difficult and narrow?
Don't Christians believe most of us end up in the lake of fire suffering eternal damnation victims of our inevitable sin?
Most of those born, according to this dogma, are destined for eternal suffering in hell. Few make it to the right hand of God. Few are saved from eternal punishment.
But wait a minute, aren’t the innocent unborn protected by the blood of Christ.
Doesn’t each innocent child aborted from this brief experience we call life reap the greater and sure reward of eternal bliss in the presence of God!
Wouldn't the logical Christian feel duty bound to save all potential children from the sinful risks of this brief life and for the better good of his/ her children to seek abortions of all pregnancies and send those very children to a certain eternal bliss?
Christianity, like most belief structures, is caught up in solipsistic and nonsensical dogma.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
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Well Trip7, since YOU think public opinion on abortion is SO important.
As follows is the most current national polling on this.
ONLY 19% of Americans believe as you do, that there should be NO abortion.
Clearly, Americans "beliefs" have changed, dramatically,
JUST like American's "beliefs" changed on the women's right to vote,
and on civil rights for minorities.
Both of which, and MANY more through the years, Americans back in time
were opposed to.
Oh heck, here is the latest polling, you can click on it yourself
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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you are questioning my faith
Not in the least. I know and have acknowledged a few times now that you have a profound and unshakable faith. I wish you all the joy in the world.
A majority of U.S. citizen's were against it
Can you back up that claim with a citation? Didn't work the last time you tried to sell me on "the will of the people"
And regarding the actual decision, Roe v Wade was a "right to privacy" decision that did not dictate the legality of abortion. a concurrent decision, Doe v Bolton, allowed abortion throughout the full term, with progressive restrictions in each trimester.
People who want to criminalize abortion seem to be forgetful or ignorant of the history that brought the decision to the forefront. Prior to legalization, abortions were performed in unsterile "back rooms" by anyone who claimed to be able to provide them. As a result, thousands of women were dying or mutilated each year.
Repealing RvW/DvB will not prevent abortions. They will continue as before, only now more women will die. And all because someone thinks their view of morality is "righteous." As I posted earlier, it is NOT the "will of the people" by any stretch of the imagination.
America knows God's will. Jesus and the Holy Bible show us the will of God
Is that the same America that includes all faiths and philosphies, not just your view? Because I'm certainly not "in the know" as you seem to think I am.
The nation is now feeling the effects of us drifting further away from the Almighty
Yeah, my interpretation is a bit different. What I see is that we are, as always, living in a moment that is the result of past decisions. There is no "god" directing the whole shebang. Just average humans making what they think are the best choices and moving ahead. I know you think differently, so you don't need to waste pixels rebutting that statement. I'm comfortable with it, as are billions of others.
Keep America free as the founding fathers intended.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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Norton- "ONLY 19% of Americans believe as you do, that there should be NO abortion."
And ONLY 21% of Americans believe as you do, that there should be legal under ALL circumstances.
edit: it just underlines what i said about the Nation turning away from the will of God and the reason we are experiencing His lack of blessing and protection!!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
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Skeptic- "didn't work last time when you tried to sell me on the will of the people"
When was that? I thought i cleared that up in my post in regards to the "egregiousness" of the American people? Their glaring, flagrant, extremely bad decisions they have made? In opposition to the will of god that is widely known and preached throughout our country. And has been regarded from the beginning of this great nation up until about 50 or so years of shifting away from it? I wasn't comparing it to other country's which are not as accountable as America!
"the last time" i gave a conservative estimate of the number of abortions that have taken place in America since R vs W, 50 million, and as you stated, it seemed correct. What are you claiming?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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"the last time" i gave a conservative estimate of the number of abortions that have taken place in America since R vs W, 50 million, and as you stated, it seemed correct. What are you claiming?
Uh, I think there's a disconnect here between us. Perhaps re-read my last post to be sure what I've rebutted.
Basically, you've claimed that "the majority of Americans were against Roe v Wade" at the time of the decision, and I asked you to cite a poll from that era that supports your claim.
I also pointed out that you tried previously to claim that the majority of Americans are currently in favor of overturning said decision. So I had posted the same Gallup poll Norton has also now posted, showing that the overwhelming majority of Americans support keeping abortion legal in at least certain circumstances.
So please show me your cites for your abortion claims. Thank you.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
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Skeptic!
I never said the majority of Americans are currently in favor of over turning Roe vs Wade!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
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Sigh. Do I really need to go sift back through the thread to find that? Absolutely you did. I'm in the middle of some imaging homework, so I won't get to that for a while.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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Skeptic,
You can sigh all you want, I stand firm! I did not make such a claim.
edit: and regardless, i could care less about your charts, i already said that Norton's chart confirms my statement that Americans are turning away from the will of God! That is what is going to bring judgment on this nation. The decision was taken away from the people by and large when the decision was made to make it a federal issue and not a state issue. And with prayer being taken out of public schools, God left also(His spiritual protection. Look where it has gone.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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(^^^^ very funny!)
From your post Oct 4, 2010 at 4:55 pm PT:
So, I will vote accordingly to put people into office who will eventually elect judges that represent the will of the people(75% or more are against abortion).
So yes, literally you didn't speak the words, "the majority of Americans are currently in favor of over turning Roe vs Wade." But by stating (falsely, as I & Norton have pointed out) that "75% or more are against abortion", you implied that their "will" is to overturn Roe v Wade. Do you have some other interpretation of the above that I'm not understanding?
i could care less about your charts
????? Trippy, did you go out and smoke a big fatty at 420 today? What in the hell are you talking about? Charts? I asked you to support your claims with some form of verifiable documentation- a poll, news story, whatever. Chart?
If you're going to use the Fox tactic of just making stuff up without any actual basis in fact, then your credibility is shot. You seem to sidestep every question or point that you don't have a pat answer for. All I'm doing is trying to get at a common consensus rooted in some fact. Your points are weak without some verifiable facts to back them up.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 08:35pm PT
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Yes Trippy,
You say God "left" America when prayer was taken out of schools.
WHERE did God go? Just took off? Not enough time in his day?
God just DECIDED to CUT and RUN.
And all because "prayer" was take out of schools.
Kind of like Sarah Palin not finishing her elected term?
God just got angry, just so disgusted with Americans, he just "left"?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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Tripy, please provide your credible source for your LIE that President Obama
signed a pro choice piece of legislation into law BEFORE HE WAS INAUGURATED.
Are you really THAT stupid?
A president, you MORAN, cannot sign anything into law until he becomes
President, and that is AFTER he is inaugurated.
EXACTLY what anti abortion did the HOUSE AND SENATE pass and then he signed
into law immediately after he took office, or before?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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He began the process/paperwork, he initiated it! The first steps in the process of it becoming law. He did this the very day after his election. Check the newspapers.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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Did i say He left America?
No!
You need to sharpen your reading skills.
I said He left the classroom/school ground!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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And what did he(Obama)do the very next day(after being elected)? The VERY NEXT DAY! His first presidential action was to sign and set forth the paperwork/legal actions to have abortions during the third trimester legal!!
Again you play fast and loose with your semantics. What you implied (strongly) is that he signed this into law before he was even sworn in.
Again, if you're going to make these kinds of claims, then back them up with some sort of reference. Then you can't be shot down. But from where I'm standing, you're looking kinda Kamikaze-ish....
Please respond to my last posts with an admission of misspeaking or clarify what you meant as I requested. Thank you.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
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Trip7.
AGAIN
PROVE YOUR SOURCE.
Prove that the House and Senate passed a law that President Obama signed
before OR right after he took office that expressly allowed abortion past
the second trimester.
NAME THE LEGISLATION.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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Norton- "And all because "prayer" was taken out of schools?"
God was taken out of schools. The name of Jesus was/is forbidden, along with the Holy Bible.
God took the hint, He wasn't welcome. So He removed His blessings, protective presence, etc. It is no longer a safe haven and so forth...
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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Rational discourse isn't your thing, eh? Have fun in fantasy land where everything is exactly as you want it and no one challenges you to use that weight sitting above your shoulders...
C'mon, just admit you were wrong, just this one time. Haven't I done the same for you?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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rip7.
AGAIN
PROVE YOUR SOURCE.
Prove that the House and Senate passed a law that President Obama signed
before OR right after he took office that expressly allowed abortion past
the second trimester.
NAME THE LEGISLATION.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
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rip7.
AGAIN
PROVE YOUR SOURCE.
Prove that the House and Senate passed a law that President Obama signed
before OR right after he took office that expressly allowed abortion past
the second trimester.
NAME THE LEGISLATION.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 25, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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Haven't checked in here in awhile. Suuuup ?!
Last couple pages are more like a political thread than a belief in God thread.
I have a question. When Jesus ran into people he didn't tell them how wrong they were ( except for the religious elite ). He told them about God and the invisible world.
So, my question. Why do so many church going people tell others how wrong they are and not about how great God and the invisible world is ? lynne
Something I read recently.....
"The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the end of the world."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
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PROVE YOUR SOURCE.
Prove that the House and Senate passed a law that President Obama signed
before OR right after he took office that expressly allowed abortion past
the second trimester.
NAME THE LEGISLATION.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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Hi Dr. F who is also my friend Craig in disguise :DD
If you are addressing me, I didn't say they were not Christians.......
When yo going to climb in Josh ?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
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Trip-
I did not question Abraham's faith. I did and always will question the idea of blind faith.
I did and always will question the idea of one small group of people on this planet having the truth and all the rest walking in darkness.
You are so fixated on what Americans think and whether or not they are close to God. Please keep in mind that America represents only 3% of the world's population and Christians of all kinds are only 20%.
I've lived in Asia for 30 years and reality looks very different from over here. You will never convince me that a loving God only cares about 3% of the human race or that all are judged by the same standard of dogma.
I also don't believe that Americans ever were closer to God than anybody else. That's just an egocentric view of ourselves encouraged by our early religious heritage. The rest of the world either laughs at our sense of self righteousness which we project onto everything from religion to our justifications for needless wars - or they find it downright revolting.
What the rest of the world does see is a lot of hypocrisy on the subject. It was good old Bible believing Americans after all, who hung witches in Salem, lynched Joseph Smith and countless African Americans, practiced genocide against the Native Americans and enslaved the Africans. In more modern times, our military has managed to kill more Iraqi civilians than even Saddam Hussein, all because George Bush thought he had a commission from God to start that war.
And isn't it more than a little hypocritical for the very men who supported Bush on his "crusade" which has killed so many innocent women and children in Iraq and Afghanistan and Johnson in Vietnam before that, to then get so self righteous over women and abortions? I agree that murder is a sin. I don't agree that men have the right to dictate to women about the sin of murder however, until their own war mongering hands are clean first.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
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Nuton,
It wasn't right after he took office, it was right after election day. He started the process that would reinstate third term abortion. I read it in the San Diego Tribune newspaper and i am not about to go through the process of hunting it down just to qwell your rabid demands and satisfy your apparent ignorance on the matter.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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Trip, you are a delusional liar.
You flat made it up.
I read six major national newspapers every day.
There was NEVER anything reported about ANY kind of "groundwork" that
President Obama "laid" to allow abortions past the second trimester.
The fact is that is what YOU want to believe.
Why? Because he just happens to be a Democrat.
And Democrats believe government should NOT tell a woman what she can or
cannot do with your own personal reproductive organs.
Democrats ARE as "Christian" as You are. And MANY Christians long ago
broke with their Churches on this issue.
I will not get into an actual abortion debate with you.
But, I also will NOT allow you to flat our LIE and MAKE UP stories
that somehow YOU have access to Obama's PRIVATE records of what legislation
he was planning to sign while President.
YOU DON'T have that information. No one does.
You should apologize for spreading lies.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
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Hmm. I think I found what you've been alluding to, Trippy. And it's from your favorite source for fair & balanced news!
President Obama made clear on Wednesday that a controversial abortion rights law is not among his top priorities, despite a campaign promise that signing the bill would be his first act in office.
Amazing what happens when you look at an issue with your mind already made up...
C'mon, just admit you did imply that "over 75% of Americans" want RvW repealed. It would mean so much to me.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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Dr. F-
At last we agree on something!
I suspect we would agree on a lot more.
The main problem as I see it, is that the exponents of mindless religious dogma have driven a vast wedge between those who believe in a non physical dimension to this universe and those who don't, to the point that it is now difficult to carry out any kind of dialog between us.
Natural curiosity, philosophical speculation, spiritual experiences and religion have all become tarred with the same dogmatic brush.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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In FACT, the OPPOSITE is true.
The ONLY legislation that President Obama has signed having to do with
abortion is the one in the healthcare bill that OUTLAWS spending Federal
dollars on abortions.
Obama signs executive order on abortion funding limits
HEALTH CARE
March 24, 2010|By the CNN Wire Staff
Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan and 12 other House Democrats attended the signing of the executive order.
President Obama signed an executive order Wednesday ensuring that existing limits on the federal funding of abortion remain in place under the new health care reform law.
Unlike the signing of the health care bill Tuesday -- which was conducted under the glare of television cameras -- Wednesday's event was closed to the news media.
It was attended by Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan and 12 other House Democrats opposed to abortion rights, without whose help the landmark overhaul bill would not have passed, political observers say.
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-03-24/politics/obama.abortion_1_offer-abortions-abortion-funding-abortion-opponents?_s=PM:POLITICS
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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Taco pontificators, the world we live on revolves 67,000 mph through space around a ball of fire...it is not just another ordinary day.....
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
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Jan- "America represents 3% of the world population...you will never convince me that god only cares about 3% of the human race..."
Get a handle on it!
I never said that God was only interested in 3%/America. And to begin with, only a very small percentage of America are Christian. There are millions, perhaps somewhere close to a billion practicing Christians through out the world that are every bit as important to God as Christians in America. Your putting words/false accusations into my mouth. I don't have a clue what you are referring to!
I am not fixated on America. I was referring to the quote I made early on in regards to the Queen of the South! She only had the wisdom of Solomon to convince her of the God of the Bible. We have Jesus Christ, and the forgiveness of sins, churches, Evangelist, the Bible, etc...
"The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation and condemn them; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear Solomon's wisdom, but someone greater than Solomon is here..."
America, and the people of this generation is who Jesus was prophecying about, along with the people that had Him crucified. We have more churches, Bibles preachers, etc. yet it turns it's back and passes abominable laws.
That is why is wrath is coming down on America. They will be held more accountable. Simply because it has access to more knowledge of God, and rejects it, passes laws that are in direct defiance of God's laws.
If you believe in some other god, that is your choice.
BTW, i didn't vote for Bush, support going into Iraq, nor did I vote for Johnson. I did demonstrate against the Viet Nam War. But I did then and continue to know support our soldiers.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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Trip says that only a very small number of Americans are Christian.
WHAT A CROCK!
Trip, you really do just make up your own facts!!
WRONG
The VAST majority of Americans are Christians.
Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. Most of the rest, 13 percent, have no religion. That leaves just 4 percent as adherents of all non-Christian religions combined — Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and a smattering of individual mentions.
That's quite different from the world at large: Fifty-two percent of the world's population is non-Christian, compared to 4 percent in the United States; and one-third is Christian, compared to 83 percent in the United States. (These are rough comparisons, because the world figures, reported by the Encyclopedia Britannica, are for the full population, while the U.S. figures are among adults only.)
Religion in the U.S. vs. the World:
United States World
Christian 83% 33
No religion 13 15
All non-Christian religions 4 52
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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Norton, I said he initiated/restarted the process to have it brought before Congress. I should have made more careful note of the specifics back then, since no one else seemed to take much notice. But it was a definate instigation of a process. Once again, sorry that I didn't keep a copy of the paper. The point was then, and now was/is it will eventually pass with the current liberal majority supreme court we have firmly in place for the next 15-20 years.
But the real problem is the heart of the people, including the back slidden, hypocritical Christian church. That is who God is calling to repent and turn from there wicked ways. I already covered this on another thread. The one about the guy burning the Koran or whatever!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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America, and the people of this generation is who Jesus was prophecying about ......... We have more churches, Bibles preachers, etc. yet it turns it's back and passes abominable laws.
That is why is wrath is coming down on America. They will be held more accountable. Simply because it has access to more knowledge of God, and rejects it, passes laws that are in direct defiance of God's laws.
This is exactly the kind of reasoning that I was objecting to!
Just because we have the most physical church buildings, or a Bible in every motel room or are the most preached at people, doesn't mean that we have most access to the knowledge of God.
I also feel confident that a loving God will understand and excuse the people who turned away because they just couldn't stand any more self righteous and hypocritical preaching of dogma.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
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Norton, I am talking about the Protestant/Evangelical born again believing church.
Not the Catholic, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, etc. church. If you remove the Catholic church, that's a significant portion. Although there are born again believers in Christ among those denominations, they just haven't seperated from them. i was an 8u yr old Catholic who asked Jesus into my heart. I didn't knows of any other churches that believed in Him. And was told if i simply entered another church I would be damned. This was the late 1950's, a different world at that time. Things certainly have changed.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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Trip, I am really seeing it now.
You are factually challenged.
You are just wrong about a lot of things.
NOW you say the "court" as in the US Supreme Court is LIBERAL and as such
will be for the next twenty years.
YOU ARE A IDIOT.
The present US Supreme Court is one of the most CONSERVATIVE in history.
It is solidly 5-4 hard core right wing conservatives.
AGAIN, your "facts" are flat wrong.
Don't you ever FACT CHECK anything before you form an opinion? NOT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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I am talking about the Protestant/Evangelical born again believing church.
Not only are Christians only 20% of the word's population, but that's not even good enough. One has to disregard Catholic and Orthodox Christians who are the vast majority, and mainstream Protestants, and Mormons etc. and acknowledge that only evangelical born again Christians have the truth?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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Norton, OK i relinquish the fact that i am not in tune with the current political environment. I have always stated that i am not interested in politics, it is not my particular focus. And i felt that this so called marriage between the Christian church and politics was a big mistake. So, that doesn't mean that what I read the day after the election(when everyone else was all in a buzz)was not true.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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So, I will vote accordingly to put people into office who will eventually elect judges that represent the will of the people
Yep.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
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Skeptimistic!
Now you have gone and "hurt my fillings". Lol...
BTW, where is the quote that you were certain i made?
Thought so, believe i deserve an apology.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians.
Rubber stamped themselves as such.
A true real Christian is unbelievably rare and very very difficult to find in this day and age.
Show bottle is very predominate in this day and age .....
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 25, 2010 - 11:58pm PT
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BTW, where is the quote that you were certain i made?
Huh? Could you please clarify?
Oh, do you mean this one that I posted 2 pages ago? Still waiting for an answer on that one.
From your post Oct 4, 2010 at 4:55 pm PT:
"So, I will vote accordingly to put people into office who will eventually elect judges that represent the will of the people(75% or more are against abortion)."
So yes, literally you didn't speak the words, "the majority of Americans are currently in favor of over turning Roe vs Wade." But by stating (falsely, as I & Norton have pointed out) that "75% or more are against abortion", you implied that their "will" is to overturn Roe v Wade. Do you have some other interpretation of the above that I'm not understanding?
I know a good dentist if you need one.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 26, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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This bears repeating.
FACT: President Obama is AGAINST Federal dollars going for abortions.
Don't you DARE make another dumbass comment that he is not a good "Christian"
Did BUSH sign a Bill flatly denying our taxpayer dollars paying for abortions?
NO
But, Obama DID. Now, you should apologize for LYING about his very clear
stance on the involvement of the Federal government in abortions.
It is exactly the OPPOSITE of what YOU "believed" it was.
President Obama signs executive order on abortion funding limits
HEALTH CARE
March 24, 2010|By the CNN Wire Staff
Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan and 12 other House Democrats attended the signing of the executive order.
President Obama signed an executive order Wednesday ensuring that existing limits on the federal funding of abortion remain in place under the new health care reform law.
Unlike the signing of the health care bill Tuesday -- which was conducted under the glare of television cameras -- Wednesday's event was closed to the news media.
It was attended by Rep. Bart Stupak of Michigan and 12 other House Democrats opposed to abortion rights, without whose help the landmark overhaul bill would not have passed, political observers say.
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-03-24/politics/obama.abortion_1_offer-abortions-abortion-funding-abortion-opponents?_s=PM:POLITICS
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 26, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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Yes, exactly what i do. Or should be doing. I didn't vote in the Bush/Obama election, and as far as i can remember, I only voted at the most, twice in my whole life. But then my memory isn't that great. Like I said plolitics isn't my focus.
But I do believe I/Christians should vote for who they believe would best fullfil the values they believe in.
Do you have a problem with that Skep?
But i believe it is even more important to live out those values/beliefs with out any hypocrisy, in your day to day life. This is where the salt of the earth is. This is where your children/neighbors/friends/fellow workers will learn from. WWhat will make a difference.
Therefore, I believe Christians are the one's who are largely at held accountable for the condition that America is in.
God was speaking to the Christians/believers when He said;
"If I shut up the heavens so that there is no rain, or command locust to devour the land, or send a plague among My people, if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves and seek My face and pray and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:13-14
I believe at this time he is speaking directly to the Christian church here in America. No Jan, I am not fixated on America! But it is "our land" and we are going through some serious trials. And i am fully aware of the hypocritical and apathetic condition of the church in my country. And I, along with my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ have are responsible, and held accountable.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 26, 2010 - 12:33am PT
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I am fully aware of Obama's not allowing fed funing of abortion. I am also aware of his taking a firm stance in support of Israel(i believe this was about one day after his taking office, or inaugeration.
But you guy's are changing the subject. I said long ago that i have little interest in politics.
We were discussing hell, etc...that, and keeping people out if it, is my focus.
edit: I didn't lie about anything, and i owe no apologies. Obama acted on the day after his election, and it was regarding the last tri-mester of pregnancy. That i am sure of. A man that doesn't allow a national day of prayer, then invites Muslim's(or perhaps it was Hindu's)into the Whitehouse for prayers is questionable at best. And declares that the United States is no longer a Christian Nation?
Don't go preaching to me about what a "good Christian" is Norton the avowed atheist. I have studied this guy's so called relationship with Christ, from day one.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 26, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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Do you have a problem with that Skep?
Of course not. You know I support your right to vote/pray/live as you see fit.
What I do have a problem with is your constantly contradicting yourself and spreading lies & innuendo wrapped up in the bible to further your agenda. I think you do it unconsciously and truly believe what you post. But when we point out the deficiencies of your statements, you don't issue a "mea culpa", you just behave like the picture I posted upthread.
If what you had posted was the verifiable truth this exchange would never have happened. Do some research before you make blanket statements that can be easily checked. Google is an amazing tool. And it is your responsibility to check your facts before you post, not ours.
Carry on.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 26, 2010 - 01:02am PT
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Skep- "Constantly..."
What?
You come up with one example two at best after hundreds of posts...get lost!
You just can not face the truth of God's Word, so you nit pick one controvescial topic. The number of people who are against abortion. And it get's turned into a three part question. That goes way back to the ttactics used back in 1973 in regards to would you allow abortion in the first three months...
Like I said, my focus is on Heaven and Hell. You are apparently agitated by the subject and prefer to look for some excuse to discredit me and what Jesus Christ said about the two. But then you don't believe in God/Jesus, heaven or Hell. Hmmmn...
Like the verse says "We are not fighting against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness in this world, against the spirit of darkness in high places." Ephesians 6:12
"The spirit of the anti-christ..."
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Abenda
climber
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Oct 26, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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"You find youself in this transient, joyless world.
Turn from it, and take your delight in me.
Fill your heart and mind with me, adore me,
make all your acts an offering to me,
bow down to me in self-surrender.
If you set your heart upon me thus,
and take me for your ideal above all others,
you will come into my Being.
Bhagavad Gita, IX
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 26, 2010 - 01:46am PT
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Skeptimistic- "Constantly contradicting yourself and spreading lies and innuendo wrapped up in the Bible to further your agenda."
Lies and innuendo? I stated what i read about Obama in the local newspaper. And the number of people who believe in abortion verses those who don't, one or the other has fluctuated in the past ten years. and will probably do so in the coming ten years.
You couldn't contribute in any way to the subject at hand( i joined this subject to correct "cliffhanger" on what a specific offering entailed). And continued in educating Norton to the judgment of the Israelites who had began the practice of sacrificing their young by adopting the practices of the pagan Canaanites. And how this judgment came down on both of them and how it parallels the Christian believers to this very day. And our country in regards to judgment and the sacrificing of the innocent children(abortion). And all you can do is jump in and tag team with Norton in regards to the amount of people that support or are against abortion at one time or another!
Norton was quoting the Bible out of context, and with out any understanding of what or why God was taking the actions He did. It is all confirmed in the Bible. I quoted the verses, gave insight into the Bible relationshops between God and the Israelites and the Canaanites, etc. Drew parrales to the situation between the church in America today, and all you can do is accuse me of a flagrant lie "contradicting yourself again and again."
You were enraged because i had some sound teaching and was able to contest the the conjectures of both "Cliffhanger' and Norton, and not able to contribute to the discussion in any way then to jump on one small and controversial subject, unable to counter my sound Biblical teaching and acuse me of being a liar.
That makes sense, coming from someone who is a pawn of the "father of lies."
You are the one with an agenda Skeptimistic. You came to this forum with one agenda, your hate for the God of the Holy Bible and the people who believe in Him.
I am content with the fact that i stirred the pot, got the enemy(Satan)annoyed and without defense. that is what the Word of God will do...Hallelujah!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Oct 26, 2010 - 02:37am PT
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I'm a Christian. Not perfect by any means. Running the race. No matter what, I want to know the truth.
Christendom and Christians in America really need to pray for our nation and try to turn it around from so being smug and arrogant and return to GOD. GOD does judge nations. He has done so many times in the past as related in his Good Word The Bible. I am very concerned for America. We seem to be making things worse around the world and not better.
Is this by design? Out of planned Chaos comes Order? The Order "they" want is not designed or wanted by GOD. The signs of the time suggest this is true.
I voted for Gore, Kerry, and now Obama. At the time they were the best choice between the 2 choices given. None are perfect. I wish I knew more about Obama before I voted. But again we were really only given 2 choices. I thought I knew him. I didn't. He has done some good things, but then other things he has done I can not wrap my head around. How can a Constitutional Law Professor do some of the things he does? Why hasn't he turned around all the illegal acts of the Bush Administration and returned to the Constitution and Bill of Rights and the rule of Law? He has no excuse.
This bothers me. I wish I had seen this short film before I voted. Probably would have voted the same, but I wouldn't have had my hopes up. I thought he was going to be different.
Obama Mocks Bible, but said he's Christian.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvnY8WY24bA&feature=related
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Oct 26, 2010 - 07:25am PT
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"A true real Christian is unbelievably rare"
There was only one real Christain, Jesus!
The rest of us ride in on Jesus' Robe!
Forthwith there would be no hope for us either!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 26, 2010 - 09:55am PT
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Ok, "constantly" was a stretch. My bad, sorry. (see? that's all it takes.not too difficult at all.)
But wow. How do you sit down with your panties so bunched up like that? Seems endemic in the ultra-pious population that you can't deal with fact when it contradicts what you've already decided.
"Enraged?" Hardly. The fact that you think I was tends to confirm my conclusion above. Frustrated that you ignored my rebuttals to your claims is more like it.
I don't "hate god & the bible & christians." I can't hate something that I don't believe exists or people that I think are misguided & slightly delusional. Like my patients with a TBI when they act out. They can't help it & if I took it personally, I wouldn't last long in this profession. What I do take issue with are people who blindly (or purposefully) propagate lies and innuendo, even when presented with concrete proof to the contrary.
I have never questioned your biblical knowledge or faith once you posted that very moving story back at the beginning of October. I have only pointed out where claims you made were wrong and provided references to back up my rebuttals. That you read into it an attack on your religion is very telling. Very obtuse. The fact that you are not willing to do the same when you make claims like you have tells me you have a dark agenda. I think your jesus would not shy away from the truth when presented it. Funny you do.
Be sure that whenever I read something as egregious as "75% of Americans" support banning abortion without some evidence to back up that claim, I'll be there to shine a light on the truth, defend the Constitution and protect "the will of the people."
Enjoy!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Oct 26, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
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dudes, religion don't make sense unless you stop taking everything so literally.
paul, to explain the catholic position on abortion. the catholics, btw, have spent the most time trying to think things through, and they present something which makes the most sense, far more sense than their breakaway bretheren. but they suffer from the same mistake, taking it all too literally.
catholics will tell you that all humans are tainted from conception with original sin, the consequence of adam and eve's big mistake. it's okay for catholics to accept evolution, but they must accept, at some unknown point, a fundamental difference between ourselves and "lower" animals, even those as close as the chimpanzee and perhaps half the extinct hominids. anyway, adam and eve had a choice. if they had chosen obedience, paradise would have been at hand, but we are cursed to our vale of tears, into which jesus has come to light the way.
original sin is taken away by baptism. the reason they want to protect all the fetuses is to give them the opportunity to get to heaven, which begins with baptism. it's also the reason it's okay to kill people like crazy in wars. they've all been born into this world, hopefully as many have been baptized as possible, and you may actually be sending some to heaven, although for sure a bunch will go to hell.
now how about these poor unbaptized unborns? you get the same problem with a miscarriage, and catholic women who suffer one are encouraged to baptize the remains before the life goes out of it. like i say, it's well thought out.
the catholic church invented a place called limbo to house the unbaptized innocents. it comes from the latin word for "border", and we are told it is "neither here nor there". there is no pain for these sorry ass unfortunates, like there is for those in hell, but they will never know the bliss of heaven because they just didn't make it into the program.
i tell you, klimmer, you gotta become a catholic. you will be so at home with this stuff.
Jan
I am behind you 100% on your above post
nice work
yeowks, actually agreeing with dr. f here. ¡milagrone!
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Oct 27, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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Best shot ever of Juan and his best friend
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2010 - 12:47am PT
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Nobody is in favor of abortion. Everyone realizes that in an ideal world it wouldn't exist. The question is why it persists and whether it should be legal in some circumstances.
The bottom line is that women get pregnant and men don't. Until men do get pregnant and fall victim to sexual violence at the same rate as women, any attempt by them to say who should or should not have access to abortion is hypocrisy at best and criminality at worst.
Unfortunately, men still control most of the powerful institutions in our society so its easy for them to voice their moral concern for something that will never happen to them. And when they really want to control women they try to make birth control illegal as well. Of course those Third World countries where birth control is illegal are precisely the countries that have the highest abortion rates. Thus the male moralists bring about the very conditions they say they dislike the most.
I'll say again, leave abortion laws to women and let men control their own desires for capital punishment and war.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 27, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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Dood- Good job on preparing and executing a rebuttal with references. I applaud you. Keep it up.
Unfortunately, what I have understood you to want is total banning of abortion, according to your interpretation of "god's word." Therefore 78% of people would not support your extremist view of abortion. Now if I'm wrong about your view, then I'm at a disadvantage. But I'm reasonably certain of my analysis since you demonstrate a largely strict literalist position when it comes to scriptural morality. And if you do support abortion at all, how does that jive with your faith? You know, the whole "thou shalt not kill" and "life begins at conception" thing?
Sorry to blow a hole in your analysis. But I guess that's what we "devil's pawns" do.
I await your pious wrath...
Edit: well said Jan!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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thaDood-
I definitely agree with you. I just wish more people calling themselves Christian had similarly compassionate attitudes.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2010 - 04:30am PT
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thaDood/Trip-
This just proves that when you're talking from your own experience, you are a warm compassionate person that we learn from. I'm still amazed by your story of your frightening childhood experience and spiritual conversion as a result. It's only when you go into your autopilot Bible quoting that you turn people off.
Scripture is obviously important to you, but how those principles work out for you in person, as you wrestle with all the gray areas of life, is what is meaningful for the rest of us.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 27, 2010 - 05:07am PT
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Dood/Trip-
We're all guilty at some level.
My equivalent is falling back on some dry intellectual argument.
A wise person once told me - few are converted by logic, many by love.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oct 27, 2010 - 10:19am PT
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Ya know, I think I like ThaDood more than Tripl7. ;-)
Seriously, I rarely get offended when people show they're human once in a while by becoming defensive. I certainly have been guilty of that too many times myself. I know and have said a few times here that you are a compassionate, deeply faithful person. I'm sure I'd be proud to call you my friend.
Certain people on this n.g. have gone off the deep end and seem to be stuck on trying to out-offend their "opponent." I used to be that way in spades back on wreck-dot and even my early posts here. But over the last year especially, I've been trying to be more like Brutus and not at all like "the carabiner guy."
I try not to come off as attacking, but my obviously my insistent tone can be easily interpreted as such. Objective, logical discourse is something I hold dear to my heart, probably because I'm trying to be better at it.
Likewise, I apologize for any offensive remarks or images I might have posted. (saaay, where'd that picture of the kid with his fingers in his ears go...? ;-))
Can't say it won't happen again (being rude), but I'll be extra vigilant in trying to minimize it and be more like a high water mark in the n.g. as Brutus was.
You did well with your rebuttal and I hope others will follow suit so we can arrive at the objective truth of whatever we're discussing rather than melt down into a flame war.
Good on'ya!
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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Oct 29, 2010 - 11:17am PT
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Thanks for your thoughts.
I find it reflective of our confusion Jan that you say a wise person, and not a kind person. We often misunderstand which is more convincing.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Oct 30, 2010 - 08:43am PT
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John 7:6, Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.
Matthew 11:28, Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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DR F stated,
Sorry
all your dayz on earth wasted, worshipping graven images and mythical gods
Please! Please! Don't tell me that! I thought every thing else I do in life is a waste; climbing, kayaking, working, hanging out. I was hoping I could make up for it, but now you say that worshiping mythical gods is a waste too??? Dang!
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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If you knew a fixed line was tattered would let your neighbor jug it or warn them? Jesus is my new lifeline from heaven, bomber!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Just to go off topic for a second:
THIS is what a perfectly jetted spark plug should look like.
Note the nicely shaded insulator color.
And also note the distinct color change right at the bend of the side electrode.
This indicates the motor is perfectly timed, not too advanced or retarded.
And now we return you to your regular program.
Thanks for watching!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Didn't I already answer this question correctly like 3000 posts ago? It's because their parents taught them to believe.
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pa
climber
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If you want to hear God laugh, tell Him your plan...
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dood- The problem with your argument is that you can't have any idea what it's like to face that decision. You'll never be a woman (at least one that can bear children) and understand the emotional turmoil that exists. My wife is a devout catholic and spent her teenage and early adult years as a teen pregnancy counselor (advising against abortion). Through her experience, I have come to understand the gut-wrenching emotion and guilt that these women face. But my wife also believes that it is a personal choice and should be left up to the woman with appropriate, non-confrontational counseling provided.
I was going to counter your points about multiple births and % of convenience terminations because you didn't use any supporting references. I'll let you do that (and they're not difficult to find).
I'll try not to be confrontational here, but let me make sure I've got your position correct. You believe that abortion should be outlawed because life begins at conception and your god has condemned it. What else am I missing?
I also believe that life begins at conception, but "personhood" doesn't develop until significantly later. You know my position on god. The issue is that of legislation. You can vote in as many people that want to reinstate criminality, but that isn't going to change the point that your basic premise is founded on religion. As such, in this country you may not make laws based on that.
Also, outlawing abortion is not going to stop abortion. It has existed for thousands of years, and it will continue for thousands more. All it will do is prevent the less fortunate from having medically safe procedures because the rich will travel to countries that still perform it. Therefore, legislation is discriminatory. It also discriminates against professional women who might become pregnant as a result of failure of birth control methods. I can't think of how it discriminates against men. It also forces families who may not have the resources or desire to care for a severely disabled child to do so. Then the state has to spend countless thousands (or millions) on extraordinary medical care and special needs services throughout the life of this person. Now the family must use time and resources that might have been available for other family members to excel in life just to keep the unwanted challenged one alive until it dies with no hope of improvement. I know your story, but realize that your story is not typical and therefore not representative of the world at large. (unless you can find some references to contradict my view)
As in the drug issue, you need to address the reasons why people seek to do it. You cannot legislate morality. And as in the drug debate, the need for it has existed since time immemorial despite extraordinary efforts to prevent it. Legalize it (or for abortion, keep it legal) and put those resources to use addressing the root of the problem, not the symptom.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Well I believe in the Cosmic Governance (that I sometimes call "God") because it gave rise to our galaxy, solar system, planet and all living things on it. -Also because it is the "high law and order" that rules over everything. -Also I "believe in" it because with study, examination, a lot of it is intelligible, learnable.
Where I'm from, some choose to personify the Cosmic Governance while others don't. Or sometimes it goes either way depending on context, the conversation, etc. Notwithstanding any personification, the Cosmic Governance - just like "Mother" Nature - has never shown any sign of personal intelligence or sentience (personal mindfulness) like the persons in my life.
So is it a step up from something lower to something higher (a graduation of sorts) to move from believing in an ancient local deity (e.g., Quetzalcoatl, Aphrodite, Jehovah/Jesus) to believing in the Cosmic Governance? Some think so.
.....
re: the Cosmic Governance that I sometimes call "God" - that is, as long as there is no danger of the Cosmic Governance being confused (in the conversation) with Zeus or Jehovah or Ishtar.
Sometimes I call the Cosmic Governance by name: Hypercrates (hi perk' ruh tees) to further distinguish it/him. -Esp when I'm in conversations with Hindis or Christians / Muslims who think it's all about Siva or Jehovah when it is not. ;)
But I perhaps go too far since all this is new age (for lack of a better word) sh'it (or, innovation) that conservatives, otherwise creatures of habit, loathe. Keep it simple and don't change too much, they say.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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“… most remarkable of all are those patients who have deeply moving spiritual experiences, including a feeling of divine presence and the sense that they are in direct communication with God. Everything around them is imbued with cosmic significance. They may say, ‘I finally understand what it’s all about. This is the moment I’ve been waiting for all my life. Suddenly it all makes sense.’ Or, ‘Finally I have insight into the true nature of the cosmos.’ … God has vouchsafed for us ‘normal’ people only occasional glimpses of a deeper truth… but these patients enjoy the unique privilege of gazing directly into God’s eyes every time they have a seizure.” [V S Ramachandran & Sandra Blakeslee, Phantoms in the Brain, Fourth Estate Limited (1998), p179]
http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/the-argument-from-religious-experience/artificial-religious-experiences/
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jstan
climber
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From cintune's link, most interesting.
"Religious experiences, then, appear to be simply events in the brain; they need not be experiences of anything real at all."
The link, quite correctly, then points out that this does not prove god does not exist.
I would point out however it does disprove the very common assumption a religious experience proves god exists.
Cintune's link cuts the ground from beneath people who believe god exists because of an experience they had
AND
who also believe in rational thought.
A null set? I would hope not.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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I am a human being that cares about the rights of the unborn(human being).
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Science proves that there is an ENERGY in us that keeps us TICKING...
I'd love to read the reference source on that claim.
Aerobic cellular energy (aka: life) is derived from the cleavage of a phosphate group from the adenosine triphosphate molecular complex. This complex is largely formed in the mitochondria of cells as a result of oxidative reduction, the key term being "oxidative."
Without oxygen, the mitochondria cannot function, which essentially turns off energy production, causing cell death (aka: death).
No magic, just straightforward biochemistry and physiology. Same thing for consciousness.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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god schmod , governance via cosmic , glucose,... I wanna know why so many people believe in LOVE as an expression of God.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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You want PROOF???.
I thought you were alluding to some sort of proof that the soul exists.
Frankenstein I get...
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Isaiah 55:6, “Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call upon him while he is near;
2 Corinthians 6:2 For he says,
“In a favorable time I listened to you,
and in a day of salvation I have helped you.”
Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Re-read what you QUOTED me as saying...
Wow. Feeling a little lonely and desperate for someone to argue with? Maybe you should re-read my post you just quoted me from and try to figure out that maybe I was saying "oops". Go back to bed. It's still early.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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my sympathies re: dmv. See the salt of the earth there...
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 10, 2010 - 08:18am PT
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Psalm 80:17, But let your hand be on the man of your right hand,
the son of man whom you have made strong for yourself!
18 Then we shall not turn back from you;
give us life, and we will call upon your name!
19 Restore us, O Lord God of hosts!
Let your face shine, that we may be saved!
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Adventurer
Mountain climber
Virginia
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Nov 10, 2010 - 11:12am PT
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"Why do so many people believe in God"? (serious question?)
Here's a serious answer.
Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that live their entire lives with an awareness of their certain death to come someday. Humans also have a fear of death, and a strong tendancy toward self preservation.
Since nearly all religions promise some form of eternal life, after life, or a re-birth if you accept their God, it's easy to understand why so many believe.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 10, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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Human beings are the only creatures on Earth that live their entire lives with an awareness of their certain death to come someday
Really? You've determined this exactly how? Perhaps you have some sort of conclusive scientific research you can point me toward?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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Seems to me there is pretty good data saying humans are the only specie unaware of the fact they could die today.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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No we are completely obsessed with death.
Everything is geared towards trying to stop it ......
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jstan
climber
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Nov 10, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
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Like going rock climbing?
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 12, 2010 - 09:48am PT
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Matthew 12:33, “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 13, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Nov 13, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:07am PT
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Not sure what Tom's photo was meant to convey other than sadness for some very intelligent creatures. God certainly had nothing to do with this but there is good evidence that many dolphin and whale beachings occur just after U.S. Navy exercises which blast huge volumes of noise under water. Some beached whales have had blood coming out their ear holes after these exercises.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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But still people try to save them...
2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Hebrews 9:27, And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Just because everybody is going over a cliff doesn't mean you have to follow!
God only has children, you have to come to Him yourself!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 14, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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Just because everybody is going over a cliff doesn't mean you have to follow!
Now you understand my viewpoint on your religion!
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:12am PT
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Psalm 115:1, Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory,
for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!
2 Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in the heavens;
he does all that he pleases.
16 The heavens are the Lord's heavens,
but the earth he has given to the children of man.
17 The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any who go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the Lord
from this time forth and forevermore.
Praise the Lord!
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 09:12am PT
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Again... Life after death is like life before birth.
If you are missing the point in that, let me rephrase it in the form of a question...
WHY do you think life after death is going to be different than life before birth? Do you believe God made your soul and put it into your infant body? If so, then it is NOT eternal, as it has a beginning. Also note that if you do believe God made your soul, and it was in your infant body (or even en utero), why is it that you have zero memory of anything prior to you developing language? If you had died before 2 years old, what would the memories and essense of your soul, or even YOU, be? Seriously, as I'm sure many of you believe that you will take all of your memories into the afterlife with you, so what if you have none, and can't even communicate with others?
Point... There is no soul, only your consciousness... And when you die, so will your consciousness die, no matter how much you WANT to believe otherwise. As Werner said (and I finally agree with him), "we humans are obsessed with death", and it's that desire to quell that uncomfortable obsession with the comforting delusion that we really won't die.
Now, if you disagree... Then PLEASE articulate WHY you believe differently? And please be specific: "I believe you are wrong because ... ". If your beliefe is REASONABLE then you should have no problem "reasonably" articulating it... If you cannot, then perhaps your belief is not as "reasonable" as you'd like to think.
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jstan
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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Excellent, IMO.
Some can articulate. Some cannot. But some will refuse to articulate because that gets too close to justifying a belief. By definition a belief cannot be justified on any grounds other than "That's the way I prefer to live." Which is cool.
Just as long as you do not attempt to force others to hold your beliefs.
Pick up any day's newspaper to see that believers fail miserably on this.
Beliefs are aggressive.
Many very good people, who are not by nature aggressive, hold aggressive beliefs.
Have you ever wondered why?
If it were me, I would ask myself why.
Are you who you think you are?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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Religions don't own the word belief. Belief is ANY mental holding (or mental acceptance). I wish people would break the bad habit of expressing themselves (through talking, writing) AS IF belief referred only to the mental holdings of religious people. It plays right into their hands. Reframe it.
Call it what it is: religious belief or supernaturalist belief or batshit belief.
Don't you have lots of "belief" concerning rock climbing, etc.? If so, you're not an unbeliever. Christians and Muslims are unbelievers (nonbelievers) in regard to Aphrodite, many in regard to the Big Bang and evolution. Letting them have this word is shooting "efforts to evolve, to progress" in the foot.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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There is no soul, only your consciousness.
If one says there is no soul then there would be no consciousness.
The soul is felt all over the body as consciousness.
Consciousness is the symptom of the soul and the seat of the soul is within the heart.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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HR... Perhaps you missed it...
Everything I said in my previous post was in reference to the belief that one has a soul that will live on after one dies...
I see no attempt to even articulate what I asked... Did you even understand what I was asking? Maybe you need to reread my reply:
Again... Life after death is like life before birth.
If you are missing the point in that, let me rephrase it in the form of a question...
WHY do you think life after death is going to be different than life before birth? Do you believe God made your soul and put it into your infant body? If so, then it is NOT eternal, as it has a beginning. Also note that if you do believe God made your soul, and it was in your infant body (or even en utero), why is it that you have zero memory of anything prior to you developing language? If you had died before 2 years old, what would the memories and essense of your soul, or even YOU, be? Seriously, as I'm sure many of you believe that you will take all of your memories into the afterlife with you, so what if you have none, and can't even communicate with others?
Point... There is no soul, only your consciousness... And when you die, so will your consciousness die, no matter how much you WANT to believe otherwise. As Werner said (and I finally agree with him), "we humans are obsessed with death", and it's that desire to quell that uncomfortable obsession with the comforting delusion that we really won't die.
Now, if you disagree... Then PLEASE articulate WHY you believe differently? And please be specific: "I believe you are wrong because ... ". If your beliefe is REASONABLE then you should have no problem "reasonably" articulating it... If you cannot, then perhaps your belief is not as "reasonable" as you'd like to think.
So, perhaps you think you can articulate WHY you believe that you have a soul, and that it will live on for eternity, either punished or rewarded?
Instead you trot out Pascal's Wager... Thing is, you lose on that too, as of all the world's religions, past and present, you chose one... So what makes you think it's the "right one"? See, by your logic, you could end up being judged only to find that you chose the wrong deity/belief. Others who worship the same root God as you are equally confident that you are wrong (Jews, Muslims), and that's just ones who believe in the same God as you... There are others who do not. So, just judging by the odds... Chances are you are "betting your life" on the wrong one, especially seeing as how you can't even articulate why you believe as you do, which suggests that your belief isn't even distinct but is instead nebulous.
HFCS... My bad for not being precise with my words, as in the context of this thread, I think many would understand what I mean by "belief"... And in ther context of my previous thread, it means "the active confidence that one has a soul that will live for eternity".
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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Consciousness is the symptom of the soul and the seat of the soul is within the heart.
That's interesting, Werner... So, when one gets a heart transplant, they get that person's sould as well? What happens to their previous soul?
Please... Tell me more.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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When you change to a new room are you the room or the person in it .....
When you total your vehicle (car) and get a new one are you the car or the driver .....
These are all crude examples ..
The gross materialists falsely identify themselves thinking they are the body.
When you do an engine transplant in your vehicle does the driver (You) change?
Or are you the engine ?..... :-)
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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I agree with what you are saying, NOW, Werner... But that's not what you said.
In the context that your are speaking, now, heart and soul are one and the same... Thus the soul cannot reside in the heart, which IS what you said. Speaking like that is a carry over from when people thought that the "spirit" ("breath") resided in the heart, and gave additinal definitions to the word "heart". Note that literally, back in the day, "spirit" and "soul" were NOT the same.
Tenzin Gyatso, the current Dalai Lama, has some great stuff to say about this in one of his recent books, The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality, in which he has an entire chapter on this very subject... And more importantly, the subjectivity of it, due mainly to the limitations we have in trying to describe our own consiousness due to different definitions of words like: heart, mind, spirit, etc... Due to culture and language, which in influenced by culture.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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HR... Image for a moment, that you are a future space traveller...
You come upon a world, far from Earth, who's inhabitants believe that their deity created their world JUST FOR THEM... As a proving ground of sorts for them to show themselves worthy of living for eternity with their deity, who they believe created them in his own image. They too call him God, and even capitalize pronouns when they refer to Him.
(Note - They look nothing like humans)
Tell me... What would you think of those people, and their confident belief?
Also note that, regarding ANY religion on this planet, past and present, that competes with your own, you already think this of them... And they are even human.
You really need to try to step out of your box of dogma... I'm not asking you to change what you believe... I am mearly trying to get you to look at it from a different light. Don't you owe that to yourself? To look at it from all angles, instead of JUST ONE? Especially when that one angle doesn't agree with some things we know reality to be?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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Again... For the third time... "WHY", as in specifically "WHAT" leads you to confidently believe that you have a soul, and that it will live on for eternity?
You have done a lot of "this is what I believe", but absolutely zero "this is WHY I believe it". That's what I'm trying to get you to look at.
As to "only memories going to Heaven"... Specifically, what do you think the sould consists of? Your memories are a part, yes? If there is more, PLEASE elaborate, and again, WHY do you believe that?
Also... Since you believe that "salvation" is only won through the grace of God, and in Jesus dying to win us that grace... Then that means John the Baptist is in Hell, right? Since he died before Jesus was able to win him grace... Same goes for all the other sinners who lived and died before Jesus atoned for their sins (E.g., Moses, Noah, Job, King David, etc...) How do you avoid this conflict? Or, do you just NOT think about things like that, that way there is no conflict?
Lastly... You "win" (or I "lose") only if God is petty, and if there is a God, I doubt he would be that petty, as that is a human traight pushed onto him... Just like Jealousy: "For I am a jealous God...".
In other words... If there is a God, it certainly isn't what you think it to be, and doesn't exist solely to care about whether people believed in him or not.
Now, I'll bet $$$ that you believe that God answers prayers, right? But, even though this has been shown to be wrong, time and again, that he does not answer prayers, you still believe it anyway. God answers prayers just as much a a robbit's foot brings luck.
See... Watch...
According to John, Jesus said:
"You may ask anything of me in my name, and I will do it." John 14:14
Jesus... Please reveal yourself and reply to me in this thread! It is certainly well within your powers. In Jesus name.
[crickets]
I'd get the same results if I rubbed on a rabbit's foot, huh?
Now don't get all, "he doesn't answer prayers like that." Read his words, then perhaps look up the word "anything". Or, do you suppose there's no internet in Heaven? Yea... That's it. Jesus is 'old skool'.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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rAdam, you're trying to use reason grounded in the Scientific Story on some people some of whom have never taken a physics or chemistry class. Or even ever read a nonfiction book outside of high school. Let alone hundreds of such books or courses.
You cannot squeeze blood out of a tulip.
But I admire your interest in the subject. American culture would have a different personality if more Americans were like you. And perhaps it wouldn't be losing so much ground year after year on the UN's achievement lists.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
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No worries, HR...
Just remember what I said... If you cannot reasonable articulate WHY you confidently believe something, then perhaps that belief isn't very reasonable... Certainly not worthy of 'confidence'.
Perhaps when you are able to really look into that... WHY you can't really articulate it in any reasonable manner*, you may be closer to looking at it from a different angle. It's one thing to 'feel' our way through somehting, and all together another to 'think' our way through... We buy used cars with more skepticism than we do in our beliefs of an imortal soul, and regardless of the belief system, it's believers always seem to be on the "winning side", and everybody else will pay for chooosing wrong. Just like you belief, as per your own words.
If you have a PhD, then I'm sure you will agree with the statement:
One's confidence should be directly (not inversely) proportional to the evidence.
Unfortunately, there are MANY who view keeping the faith in the face of contradicting evidence as a virtue... Like they win extra God points, worth a seat closer to God in the end. So to them, it is inversely proportional.
When one believes something, with all their heart... It is often at the expense of all their head.
*Articulate with words, in writing... Not just up in your head. Many things make perfect sense up in our heads, until we have to actually write them out, or explain them in detail to someone else.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 15, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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HR,
You state that those who choose to not "believe" in I presume your definition of a god will have made the wrong decision because, well, they will somehow be denied something in the event that there IS an afterlife.
Denied exactly what?
Are you saying it is your personal belief that billions of humans whom have lived and died throughout the past 200,000 years of homo sapien existence on this planet will be in effect "punished" by god when they die because it never occurred to them in their culture that there was such a thing as a god? Surely you are aware that the concept of a Christian defined god is only some 2000 years old, and not surely not everyone got the word that they were supposed to believe?
Also, you seem to be saying that god will somehow punish or deny those humans who simply did not care to believe in a god, in spite of having been clued in at some point in their lives. Your god will actually hurt, deny, punish people after they die?
Do I have your beliefs right?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 15, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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bump for HeucoRat
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 15, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
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Boys, it looks like this thread has come to its end.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 15, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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Over? Nobody's even been physically threatened on this thread yet, have they?
Well, I mean in this lifetime.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Nov 15, 2010 - 11:11pm PT
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hey F...he got you to respond.....so what would you call that someone?
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 16, 2010 - 08:14am PT
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 16, 2010 - 10:01am PT
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:09am PT
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 18, 2010 - 08:14am PT
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You make the call, but how cool is Jesus...
One thing I think about when the men who wanted to stone the woman is, how stupid are they, is the woman alone in adultery, or is a man involved?
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 19, 2010 - 08:16am PT
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It says it all...
Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2-John MacArthur
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 20, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
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Maybe you can help me with this, go-b... As I'm having trouble envisioning how Jesus could ride into town on two animals, according to Matthew:
Matthew 21:5 "Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."
Of course, you do know where that comes from, right?
Zechariah 9:9 "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
As I've said, numerous times before, the author of Matthew scoured the OT for any and all prophecy that he could spin Jesus into, and this was just one of many attemps to do so.
So, how exactly did he ride two animals AT THE SAME time, and why do the accounts in other Gospels have him only riding a donkey (I.e., one animal)?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 22, 2010 - 07:20am PT
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Wow... You got it bad, huh go-b?
You drank it, didn't you?
ALL of it... Intoxicated, you are.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 22, 2010 - 10:09am PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit...
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 25, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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go fuk yourself,
use the bible to wipe up the jizm
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 26, 2010 - 11:06am PT
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1 Corinthians 1:25, For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 26, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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1 Atheists 1:25, For the foolishness of the unthinking will be their downfall, and the inconsistencies of their philosophy will bring untold suffering upon them at the end of their days.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 26, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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rrrADAM- "So exactly how did he ride two animals AT THE SAME time...?"
It doesn't say that He was riding two animals at the same time necessarily, although I also asked the same question when I first read that reference in Matthew to Zechariah!
The prophecy from the Old Testament(as you noted)states:
"Rejoice greatly O daughter of Zion; shout O daughter of Jerusalem, behold, thy King cometh unto thee: He is [just] and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." Zechariah 9:9
This is referring(prophecy)of both His first coming to earth as a servant upon a donkey(ass), and "the second coming" upon a horse(colt), when He will return to rule the earth as King!
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war...and He was clothed in a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God." Revelations 19:11
See bold above, brutha... "And" means, in this case, "both".
Like if someone askes you, what did you eat tonight? Where you answer steak and potatoes. It means both.
Spin it however you like, but the fact remains, it's BS, REQUIRING you to rationalize it, so it "still could make sense". Note also that it isn't what other gospels state happened.
Thing is... Ya'll believe "it's in the Bible, therefore it MUST be true", so you bend over backwards sdo it "still can be true". Run into a problem? Just reinterpret whatever you need to make it fit.
Example... How old do you think the Earth is, and do you believe that we have evolved from a more primative species?
You'll be hard pressed to find ANYONE who believes in a young earth who is not a religious fundamentalist. Point being... Even though there is irrefutable evidense to support the a VERY old earth, and evolution, people must bend over backwards (ignore reality) so it (their belief) "still can be true".
Like I said:
Run into a problem? Just reinterpret whatever you need to make it fit...
Or, just mindlessly spew scripture, like a bot.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 26, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
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Skep- Bravo, way to keep the charge!
You, too, Dr. F.
Complex problems call for the use of many strategies, not just one.
(e.g., like skis AND snowshoes, from another thread)
You, too, rAdam!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 26, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
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and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Nah, I think you misinterpreted it still: there should've been a comma after "colt" to indicate that the foal was riding on the colt. Or perhaps another mistranslation was using "an" instead of "his"...
This is the problem with trying to translate ancient dead languages.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
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"His return as King upon a white horse."
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 26, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
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Furthermore, I am under no obligation(Biblical or otherwise)to proove anything to you
Dood- Sorry you felt personally attacked. I have no ill will towards you personally, or most other xtians in general. Some of the televangelists I'm not so crazy about. I was just responding in kind to gobshite's relentless mindless cut-and-paste posts.
Werner- Isn't that krisna?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 26, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
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Kalki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
He's living in the Himalayas right now in incognito and will appear 428,000 years from now on that white horse and kick ass .....
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 26, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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Dr. F., I like it that you take a stand! I'll just have to work harder to wear you down?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 27, 2010 - 10:26am PT
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Nov 27, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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He hits it out of the Park ladies and gentleman...
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
Sorry wrong Forum!
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Nov 28, 2010 - 10:23am PT
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The only reason I got game at all is because of Jesus, otherwise I strike out on my own!
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
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ah, dr. F--think of me as mister answers's stand-in.
Answer these questions
and without Biblical quotes
Once a quote comes out, I will have to take away credit for not using your brain that God gave you, and thats a sin
If Jesus was resurrected, he came back to life, right?
right on, bro
1) so he didn't die for my sins, right?
but he did! he did! every last one of them, including your sincere challenge to faith here.
2) Maybe he was never dead, he was just in a coma?
not a coma at all. dead as a doornail in that old tomb there, although i'll bet his flesh didn't start to decompose. anyway, he descended into hell and cleaned out that mofo of all the people who had to wait there for him to come along. these were nice old testament people, but couldn't get into heaven until jesus.
3) After he came back to life, what did he do then? go to America?, hang out in Israel?
a little difference of opinion here. the mormons among us will soon be along to tell you about all his splendid doings in america, where he nevertheless failed to excite much among the natives of the time, enmeshed as they were with their pagan myths. it took a nice white guy like joseph smith to find what was left of his efforts. he did this by translating plates written in ancient egyptian which an angel would hold for him behind a curtain. it was great fun.
otherwise, he hung out in israel for 40 days and 40 nights. doubting thomas came along and stuck a finger in jesus's wound. jesus giggled. then he went off to heaven on a cloud but said, "i'll be back". not sure what kind of cloud that was, or how high he went on it, but it was definitely out of sight of his camp followers. i think it was probably just a handy cumulus cloud which he was able to control with his anti-gravity belt. no way it was a stratus, and if it was a cumulonimbus, people would have remembered.
4) or did he fly up to heaven, like superman?
it was just a gentle, gradual elevation to the point of being out of sight. he didn't go beyond the troposphere. probably somebody hang-gliding could have followed him quite a ways, but, if there woulda been a hang-glider then, he just woulda out-distanced him. or her.
5) or did he die again? so his spirit would go to heaven? so he died, then came to life, then died again in a couple hours, then came to life again in heaven, are you sure about that?
here is where the wisdoms of catholicism come in. the catholic church has thought this out far beyond the powers of poor evangelicals to add or detract.
when jesus got resurrected, he got what is referred to as a glorified body. there are two glorified bodies in existence to date, that of jesus and his mom, with whom i'm sure you're somewhat familiar. jesus got resurrected and ascended into heaven, mary's body was assumed into heaven after she died a natural death. this is celebrated by all catholics everywhere on the feast of the assumption. never assume anything, unless you happen to be god almighty him- or it-self. (i think we have established on other threads that there is not a shred of the feminine in god almighty, beverly sills be damned.)
anyway, glorified bodies. that's what you can look forward to, dr. F, if you repent and are saved. on the last day god will resurrect all the good folks and put you into your glorified bodies and you'll live forever. you'll be able to eat, drink and be merry, but forget about having any sex with someone else and his or her glorified body. strictly forbidden by the new rules. if you're interested in anything like sex, it's now or never. drinking beer may also become forbidden, judging from a fun little polka they used to sing in primarily bohemian and german catholic southern minnesota:
"in heaven, there ain't no beer,
"that's why we have to drink it all down here ..."
i won't belabor this part of this answer much further except to note that there were a character or two from old testament days that got swept directly into heaven, did not pass go, did not collect two hundred dollars. ezikiel or elijah or someone like that, name started with an "e". they wrote a song about him (them):
"swing low, sweet chariot,
"comin' for to carry me home ..."
this little factoid does great violence to some of the thinking-through subsequently done by the catholic church.
6) how do we know he was the son of God, are we just taking his word for it?
big loaded words here, bud. jesus never called himself "the son of god", although he often referred to his father in heaven and once let on that, neener, neener, no one comes to the father except through me. but it was other guys that jesus set up to make big declarations about who he was. peter was probably the best at that, and for his reward he became pope peter the first. there hasn't been a pope named peter after that. the legend in italy is that when some mofo chooses the name pope peter the second, look out brother, game over.
or did God say he has sons once in a while, and that Jesus guy is one of them?
we all have "the power to become sons of god" if we join the program, dr. F. give it a shot. let me know how it works out.
Who did he tell that to ?
those who told others and somebody eventually wrote it down. buy a bible. read books on bible scholarship. it'll get a bit difficult to sort it out, but you're a smart guy.
he never told me he can have sons, he told me that if someone says they are the son of God, its Satan trying to trick you into believing in false Gods and spirits
god's talking to you now, dr. F? wow! why am i trying to explain all this?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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i try not to take sides, doc. as i said long ago on this thread, i consider the business of god to be an open question, and i'm quite comfortable with that.
i did learn something, however, just this past week, and that's how to prove euler's problem with the seven bridges of königsberg. sonofagun, it can be proven.
so the question is over to you, dr. F, and i kinda doubt you're up to giving us a reasonable answer: what standards of proof do you require?
ironically, it was euler himself who scared off no less a personage than denis diderot from the court of catherine the great (catherine well understood the business of having sex down here) with:
"Sir, XXX, hence God exists—reply!"
i can't copy in XXX, since i don't have ed hartouni's math rendering program, but you'll find it at the end of the wiki article on euler. if that's not enough for you, you have to tell us why.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 28, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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See, it's just as Michael Dowd described it in Thank God for Evolution - Today, Christian theology (the bedrock of Christian religion) has been, and continues to be, trivialized.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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tony, aside from using TeX (if you want it you can get it... free...) when I find something on the Wiki page I usually just pull the image over and put it between the img tags used on SuperTopoForum, e.g.:
this links to the Wiki image (or any other image), e.g.:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/e/9/7e9e6db7b0e8c3bd81ca5d54ab0302d5.png
it is an academic affectation to add the citation to the article from which the image is "quoted"
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler ]
I often do this by including the image in a url tag with the url pointing at the reference, but this often confuses the reader here who is not certain or is unaware that their cursor changes when passed over the image indicating that it is linked....
...it is frequently asserted that the existence of mathematics is "proof" of the existence of God... it is a strange proof but one that madbolter1 had begun to embark on in other threads on this topic. Essentially the argument goes that mathematics is not deduced from the physical universe, that it is based on some universal, absolute ideals beyond the physical universe, thus proving such things exist, and that the creation of these things must also have been formed from some intelligence beyond the physical, GOD ∎
But this is really an incomplete proof since it has not been shown that mathematics could not have been a consequence of the existence of the physical universe. It is especially interesting as the proposed universality of mathematics is based on the physical evidence (that is, we observe processes taking place in other parts of the universe and infer that these observations indicate that those processes are describable as they are here on earth). We do not know if our description of mathematics is universal (it most certainly is not, it does not even extend to our own, brief history of mathematics among recent human culture).
There are also troubling problems with the completeness of a logical description where consistency of the axiomatic basis upon which Hilbert sought to put mathematics is called into question, see, e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_theorems
Also interesting to note that Hilbert's program was to expunge from mathematics the sort of "proof" that my universality argument above uses, that is, proofs based on physical observation (which were common in the 19th century, especially in differential equations associated with hydrodynamics).
So Euler was uncharacteristically sloppy in his mathematics, but he know what side his bread was buttered, vis-a-vis pleasing his royal patrons.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 28, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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Look at the animals they just look out for themselves and food
Wow. You need to do some simple research before you make ignorant statements like that. I'd agree that humans are the only ones that are destroying the planet by their selfish greed.
Decades of research on animal social behavior contradict your simplistic world view. Here's a start:
John Lilly - Dolphins
Jane Goodall - chimpanzees
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
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ah, gobee, lad, beware the lurking icebergs of convenient dogmatism. catherine the great sicced euler on poor diderot, not for the lofty reverence of god to which you are annealed, but the subjugation of serfdom therein, to which you are unknowingly annealed, whilst she herself broke many a commandment for convenience and sovereignty. (they say the story is apocryphal, anyway, like so many books about jesus.)
t'was im kant himself, favorite son of the city of seven bridges, who laid out the stark, noble, but, in the end, impossible categorical imperative--"the greatest wonders are the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me"--whisked away as the noble backbone of old prussia buckled to the exigencies of geopolitics down to this day, when the very name königsberg is buried in modern russification and the memory of that imperative--like yours?--prostrate to the demands, and conveniences, of the present.
there may be more to life than our next sandwich, but chaos is only a paycheck away.
ed--what's an axiom, exactly?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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Skeptimistic/rrrADAM,
To begin with, I haven't even finished reading your last posts, but evidently I failed to make it clear to you previously that I rely upon a relationship, a personal one, not what others have concluded. That relationship(spiritual)began on 1957 at the age of 8 yrs old. He intervened during a life and death moment. I had never seen let alone read a Bible at that time. I have had, over the last 50+ years experienced His presence perhaps 8-10 times. It is rare even amongst Christians, but He is very capable of being able to let you know Who He is by His personal presence. The point being is, that He proved to me, by His very presence, who He was over 50 years ago. Since then it has been a growing relationship, nothing needed to be proven on His part, other then that He keeps His promises.
I am in need of no proof. I could care less if it said He rode in on fifty(50)various four footed and cloven beasts...
Furthermore, I am under no obligation(Biblical or otherwise)to prove anything to you. I just present the Good News(and, as in this exchange, attempt to answer your questions). It is up to you to believe it or not. That is your choice. But mark my(and God's)words, you will be held accountable for your choice.
It has been a long time since I studied the scriptures in relation to your question(rrADAM's)of the ass and the colt. Like I said, I had the very same question at that time. Regardless, Jesus will fulfill the Second Coming prophecy, and "All eyes will see" His return as King upon a white horse.
1. You imply that your "confidence" in the existance of God, namely in Jesus, is based on what you interpret as him acting within your life. Now, can a follower of Islam claim the same thing? Seriously, if a Muslim told you that he was shure that that his idea Allah is correct, and listed the same "self evident proofs" that you did, would that make him correct?
Now, if NOT... Then why does that work for you, but not for him? Seriously, why, as you BOTH cannot be correct, right?
2. You also show that you believe this with all your heart, and that what you feel in your heart guides you to the truth... But, we all know that following our heart alone can get us into plenty of trouble, as it clouds our reason, since we'll often go to great lengths to believe what we "want to believe", even when there is ample evidence that we are wrong.
Example... A mother sits in a court room, sees her son in an orange jump-suit on trial for murder... She even sees all of the evidence against him -- his gun, motive, heckm even a video of him shooting the guy... Yet, she will confidently believe in her heart that he is innocent, and not capable of murder. Doesn't mean he's innocent, just means that she's unable to see the truth, due to her emotional belief.
3. You state that you don't bother yourself much with the Bible, as far as your confident belief goes, yet IT IS THE SOURCE OF YOUR BELIEF, as where else are you getting your info for the "second coming" that you are so confident about?
See... The thing is, you axiom are incorrect, thus everything built on it is flawed. Just like the statue in Daniel symbolizes... When you distill it down, it is built on feet of clay.
Let me show you a very simple way of highlighting thit FACT, by a simple question:
What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong in regards to your belief?
Your answer (I'm assuming it's: "nothing") to that question shows what I am talking about... As if NOTHING can cinvince you, then you are by definition closed-minded, and blind to any truth other than what you already believe, and even if you are wrong, there is absolutely no way for you to see it, since "nothing" will convince you otherwise.
Can you not see how this type of thinking (let's face it, your "feeling", not thinking here anyway) is flawed?
go-b... Re: animals:
Humbolt squid have a faster nervous system than we do, meaning they think and react faster than we do.
Also, MANY animals show curiosity, which is a sign of higher intelligence, and they wil try to figure things out, just because they are curious. Same goes with play.
You, especially, aren't as highly evolved in regards to some animals as you think you are.
Tony... An axiom is "a self evident truth that needs no proof"... They are what more complex theories or hypothesis are built off of.
Example of a flawed axiom, that lead to the wrong view of reality...
People believed that the Earth was "fixed and motionless" (as per the Bible), and this was "self evident", as they didn;t dfeel motion, and when they jumped up, they came down where they left the ground. That belief was an "axiom", and upon it, theories about how the heavens moved around the Earth were made, even having to come up with elaberate "epicircles" to account for the motions of the planets.
Problem was, that "self evident" truth wasn't correct, thus the axiom was wrong, and all theories based on it were wrong.
That said, people will often start with an arbitrary or made up "axiom" (think: value of a variable) just to see what happens when a theory or hypothesis is made with that axiom... To see if it matches reality.
In the contexct I used the word axiom above to 'dood', is that to the faithful, the (flawed) axiom is that there is a God, and/or that the Bible is correct.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Nov 28, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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Our pint sized alpha male Chihuahua Peanut, can't go around our condo without trying take on the neighbors German Shepard!
The birds that nest in the overhangs of the roof seem to fend off the other birds!
Tony your right, "but chaos is only a paycheck away", that's what family is there for, and sometimes God uses hard times to draw us to Him!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
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the "img tag" works like this:
[img]url for image here[/img]
do that in your "Post a Reply" box, NO SPACES are allowed between the tags [img] and [/img]
how are you going to understand God or even the simpler axiom, if you can't even get the image tags right? You're not giving me much to work with there, tony
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 28, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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The problem with all of these arguments - and why they are always circular - is that they are entirely beholden to materialist language, constructs, yada yada. Materialist constructs such as "real," "physical," "existing," "measurable," and so forth serve us invaluably in our everyday, practical lives. When spiritual concerns are extruded through spiritual filters they are always found lacking for there is never anything "there," nothing "real" (material) to measure, ergo what (what thing) are we talking about if "it" cannot be said or proved to exist in any substantive (material) way. "Prove it," is the common refrain, and this is a fair question. Unfortunately, "prove it," means, show me the material footprint of that spirit you keep talking about, which is just the discriminating mind's attempt to make "it" into a thing (a thought).
And so long as this is the approach, demanding that the spirit suddenly become material for the benefit of our evolved brains, we will likely never find "any thing" and we can rightly pitch all of the spiritual shite as so much imagining or as mere a rhetorical tautology which cannot be disproved but nevertheless tells us "no thing."
And so we circle till we die. And the questions linger . . .
JL
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
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Not sure I follow you, Tony... "I" haven't vanquished anything.
And axioms do not need 'consensus', but rather, they MUST truely be of the nature that they do not need proof. In fact, 'consensus' can be a problem, as if it's incorrect, 'consensus' only reinforces an incorrect axiom.
Example... 1 + 1 = 2, and so forth (the axiom)... Because this is true, and 'self-evident', we can use this to be CERTAIN that 124,099,001 + 347,001,301 = 471,100,302 without someone having to count it all out to "prove" it.
Now, one can say (and a few actually have to me, I believe even in this thread pages back regarding the Big Bang), "Yea... But how do we KNOW that 1 + 1 has ALWAYS equaled 2?"
Ever heard someone who believes in the creation of the universe as per Genisis counter with, "Well, one day is a 1,000 years to God"? (see 2 Peter 3:8) And fully believe that they've found their out, that it "still can be true". Problem is, we have no reason to believe that, AND, even if it were true... ~13.4 BILLION - 6,000 years, is still ~13.399994 BILLION.
And the answer to previous question, "How do we know 1 + 1 has always equalled 2", is... We have absolutely no reason to believe it hasn't, since all through recorded history, there has never been a case of it not being true. BUT, people will use this type of flawed logic to dismiss what doesn't fit into their 'box of dogma'. Even if a large group of people arrive at this concensus, it still won't be true, BUT they will reinforce an incorrect belief with each other in order to dismiss a correct axiom.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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The problem with these threads is that they are beholden to, and suffer from (I might add) religious language, constructs, yada, yada.
What's more, they are populated by climbers who are clinging by last thin threads to the old notion of there being a "ghostly spirit" in the machine (when there is none) way more than by climbers willing and able to invest their energies to come to grips with the scientifically supported view that they are molecular machines, material bodies, which borrow their life energy (or life spirit) for a short time, yada, yada.
So round n round it goes. For awhile still...
Get a grip, fellas. Geez, I thought you were climbers.
Willing to explore on the wild side. So show it.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Largo... What reason to believe that:
1. There is a spirit/soul, of the etheral type?
2. Considering everything that you believe the spirit/soul to be (non-material), were to someday soon, have just one, or more aspects of it explained naturally, thus reducing those aspects to material, will/would that change you mind at all regarding exsistance of the spiriot/soul, or will/would you just move the goal post, so to speak, and say, "Well, what about the rest? You can't explain that."
(Sorry for the run on sentence.)
See... It seems like you are confident only in this where it cannot be explained, yet. But what if some of it were explained? Would that lessen your confidence?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
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Forget it, rAdam.
I tried long ago to get Largo out of his shell and to be specific, he won't come forth.
.....
For instance, I asked him (a) how much time have you actually spent with the material biological model, how much have you tried to adapt to it? to come to grips with it? to take it for a test drive? to "work it in" to your belief system - just to see if you could engage in the "practice" of living in its terms.
But like the others, he just won't try. Too scary or something.
So I didn't even proceed to (b). :)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
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nice avatar image there Largo...
I'll attempt to avoid its metaphor
I don't disagree with your assessment
thoughts need not be about something that is real to be real themselves
experience which is real may be in response to something perceived but that thing may not exist outside of that experience
while science using materialism (whatever that is, really) may explain us physically, it will never explain our individual experiences exactly, their meaning to us or their value
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:21pm PT
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rrrADAM- "what you feel in your heart guides you to the truth..."
Let me make it very clear that I had enough faith to call on His name that afternoon in 1957..."Jesus please help me!" It was this "faith" that He responded to.
"We live by faith, not by sight." 2 Corinthians 5:7
I had heard of Him, that He claimed to be God, and that He loved little children. I will be forever grateful to the Roman Catholic nun who shared this much with me. In 1957 we were still given the choice of attending the denomination of our choice once a week for prayer, etc during the last hour of school once a week. Or we could stay in class for secular activities. Evidently I had given this some consideration, and it payed off that afternoon. He saved me physically from a serial killer(alleged to have murdered more then thirty young boys). He also initiated a spiritual relationship with me. No matter what would have happened after that day, I new that He, Jesus Christ, was God. That is who He presented Himself as.
rrrADAM- "What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong?"
NOTHING!
Let me ask you this question. What would CONVINCE you that you are wrong about your father, son, wife/brothers, etc. existence? He is that real to me, and in many ways even more so.
A while back on this thread I did a brief synopsis on how we are "body, soul, and spirit." You are looking at it from a material/physical or worldly standpoint. You are using reason, and looking for a rational(in the physical sense)explanation. But you are completely void of a spiritual awareness, or even the possibility of one existing. You are the one with the closed mind, you have decided that He doesn't exist because YOU can not find physical evidence of His exsistance.
rrrADAM- "Following your heart alone can get you into trouble..."
This is true! And thank God that I don't follow my own heart. I met and know JC, and I follow Him(and growing in this relationship).
rrrAdam- "You state that you don't bother yourself much with the Bible, as far as your confident belief goes, yet, IT IS THE SOURCE OF YOUR BELIEF..."
Once again, I new without a shadow of a doubt that He, Jesus Christ, was God at the very moment He intervened and entered my life/heart. As far as reading the Bible(The Living Word)I have that same confidence that He was/is capable of giving His Church(Believers)the scriptures that guide us and so forth(whole other subject that could be covered). I read, study, and meditate on the Holy Scriptures on a daily basis...
Your personal thoughts, or the picture you paint of the Christian God is from a very limited viewpoint/perspective. And you have denied Him, and any personal knowledge of Him, access to your life.
Thanks for the most excellent questions and observations. Please keep in mind that I do not have a degree in theology, nor have I studied for a pastoral position, etc. just personal experience, observations, and study of scripture every now and then.
1. I asked you, and you totally ignored this part, that why is it that a Muslim can say the exact same things that you say, "they feel it in their heart... evidenced in their lives", yet they OBVIOUSLY (to you) would be wrong, yet to you, this is proof positive. So, again, why, if a Muslim in theis thread, were to say the exact same things you say, regarding "their belief" would they be wrong, yet you are right? Specifically, what would the difference be?
2. I was once a born again christian, and felt much the same way you did, and was equaly as confident in my beliefs, so you don't claim some "secret knowledge"... Which IS what you are doing. You are arguing from a point of authority, based on your "experiences". The same ones that you would NOT believe from a Muslim (see #1).
3. I don't have to prove the existance of my relatives, they exist, and ANYONE can verify that... Even anybody who may initially believe they don't exist. To even attempt to put the two, obvious and verifiable fact vs. unverifiable supernatural belief, in the same context is a pretty huge leap in flawed logic. But then again, you have to justify the fact that NOTHING can convince you that there isn't a dfragon in your garage:
The Dragon In MY Garage by Carl Sagan
4. My knowledge of Jesus is NOT very limited, as a) I research theology, especially Christian theology, and b) I used to be a born again Christian (see #2). In fact, in regards to my precious belief, that "proves" that this is incorrect:
One saved, always saved
But then you MUST say that "I cannot know him", as a simple means of dismissing what I say outright. Do you know what fallacy that is?
Now, of course, oyu wqill just believe, confidently too, that "I cvouldn't have believed like you do", so... What makes you so sure of this? You don;t even know me, but you are "certain" that I could noty have believed as you do now... So, seriously, what makes you so certain? The answer is, you MUST believe that, in order to dismiss what I have to say.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 28, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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HFCS... I am very interested in what Largo has to say, as I have spoken with him before in the past about this, and even have some CDs he gave me, but I have failed to actually attempt do the techniques described in them. (Sorry, John)
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Nov 28, 2010 - 10:12pm PT
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You see the manifestation of God's creation all around us, they aren't God Himself, but it's apart of Him!
When you do something like climbing, skiing, driving on windy roads etc. where you are committed to it, hopefully you are in the moment, and reacting to it! Even when your reading something you have to be open and alert to take it in, and at that time you are not aware of yourself, none the less you are there! We are fearfully and wonderfully made!
Edit; 1 John 2:19, They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
My pastor say's that those that do leave, were not real believers to begin with?
But I know God never gives up on us, and I'm living proof!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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as i understand axiom, rrradam, it's a pillar on which you build a logical structure. the pillar may be self-evident, easily proven, or commonly accepted--using your example, celestial bodies revolve around the earth, which nobody contested for years. but eventually the axiom was disproved and the logical structure built on it fell down.
fine. but--you got some axioms of your own now? certainly, the earth revolves around the sun. i never figured that out for myself, but i'm going by a pretty big consensus. but we're talking about more than the earth and the sun here, we're arguing about that god entity.
dr. F seems to think that god has to do something, something which can be proven. well, how about the big bang? something happened there. maybe god did it, maybe there's another explanation, i don't think anyone has the final answer yet. for me, god might have done it, so god remains an open question. kinda like the bridges of königsberg, but that was an easy one to reason out. this one's a little harder. my quarrel with dr. F is that, just because you can't prove god did anything, you can't prove god didn't do it either. not being able to prove that god did something doesn't disprove the existence of god.
let's see here
Sir, , hence, god exists--reply!
voila!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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there may be hope for you yet, tony...
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Nov 29, 2010 - 12:45am PT
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Ephesians 2:20, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
1 Peter 2:6, For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 07:33am PT
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my quarrel with dr. F is that, just because you can't prove god did anything, you can't prove god didn't do it either. not being able to prove that god did something doesn't disprove the existence of god.
Using this logic...
Who can disprove that I, rrrADAM, am God?
Now, since you cannot, does that mean that you must accept the possibility that I, rrrADAM, am really God, testing the waters in this thread to see what ya'll believe about me?
If no, then why not? Same argument: You cannot disprove I am not God, therefore, you cannot discount it, and must consider the possibility. As that IS the jist of that argument.
Now, why isn't it equally absurd for the 'faithful' to so easily discount and dismiss all other Gods, except their own, when the same argument(s) can be made for all other Gods that they make for their own?
IMHO, I believe the answer to be, because it isn't what they "want" to believe... It isn't the way they "want" to see the world. As in their belief (any religion), it is THEY who are right, and all others wrong... This is self-righteousness, and it gives its believers a sense of empowerment, entitlement, and superiority... For it is they who are saved, and know the one true God (again, any religion), have that God on THEIR side, and even believe that praying (wishing) may result in that God intervening on their behalf and altering or influencing an outcome for which they have no control in some way to benifit them.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Nov 29, 2010 - 08:12am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
Jesus held back nothing from us, even death on a cross, and loves us with an everlasting love!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Nov 29, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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Who can disprove that I, rrrADAM, am God?
easy to do, rrradam. you're obviously a human being. if you want to pretend to be god, you've got to act a lot holier.
william saroyan (1908-1981): "Everybody has got to die, but I have always believed an exception would be made in my case. Now what?" (he actually wrote that in the 1930s, but he did eventually die.)
only one human being pretended to be/was god (your choice there), and since that human being may have overcome the extinction of death, for me it remains an open question. lots of apparently normal people believe that, lots of other apparently normal people don't.
if we are to consider that you are god, rrradam, perhaps we could prove/disprove that by trying to kill you. i would prefer to spare you that risk and begin by trying to determine an axiom, such as i've been trying to squeeze out of dr. F. what is the standard we would have to hold you to for this premise?
if we were tribal folk, ignorant of the modern world, and you landed in our jungle clearing in a helicopter, we might think you were god, or at least a god. if you pointed to the local volcano and it erupted when you held up your hand and stopped erupting when you put your hand down, we'd probably conclude you were god almighty. me, i'd want you to make the sun go backwards in its track as well. but even if you were able to do all that, gobee might still think you were the devil, since he believes jesus is the only human version of god. he'd consider it one of those tests, like god did with job. as i believe i once established on a klimmer thread, god enjoys making side bets. perhaps if einstein had read the book of job more carefully, he may not have quarreled with niels bohr.
(it wasn't a vicious quarrel:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Niels_Bohr_Albert_Einstein_by_Ehrenfest.jpg);
so you see, the problem here is agreeing on the axiom, don't you think?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 10:52am PT
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Who can disprove that I, rrrADAM, am God?
easy to do, rrradam. you're obviously a human being. if you want to pretend to be god, you've got to act a lot holier.
Flawed logic...
Zeus, and many other Gods, as well as Jesus, assumed human form. And, remember, if I am God, I can do anything I want. Not to mention, that you have never, ever, met me, so how do you know I am a human? All assumtions.
You disproved nothing, other than my point that people believe "what they want to be true". Since nobody want me to be God, it's easy to not believe, but what REASON does one have for not believing so?
Like I said, nobody can disprove it... It's up to me to prove it, if I want people to believe it. And I'm not trying to pretend I'm God, but rather show the flaw in your argument that, "since something cannot be disproved, it MUST be considered possible."
Remember, many people believe that God flooded the Earth, killed first born sons, burned entire cities (man, that's a lot of killing he did, even of innocent infants, but that's another story), allowed a man to live in the belly of a fish/whale for three days, etc... So, as many believe, 'back in the day', he was more than willing to show himself pretty dirrectly, but not at all now, why? Because all of that is myth.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Nov 29, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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RRR...I may be wrong trying to remember my Greek mythology but Zeus and others did not have human form, thus the myth in ology. They were worshiped by cults, had alters made of ashes from sacrifices. ..... So at this point your observation is flawed
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 29, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Who can disprove that I, rrrADAM, am God?
Ooh, let me try!
Do you have a book thousands of years old written about you that people have used to exert their dominion over others, justify genocide, rape, child molestation, torture, deny scientific fact, prevent progress, create an elite cult of leaders who can only be joined by arcane rituals and rules laid out in other supporting texts?
No? Not god...
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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luggi... Zeus took human form, as well as animal form, often.
skep... Why would I need a book? Does the Vedas make those beliefs any more plausible? How about the Qur'an, or the Dead Sea Scrolls, or the writings of Norse, Roman, or Greek Gods?
And, if I were God, I wouldn't be a murderous God... So petty that he tortured people who simply didn't believe in him for eternity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68
My point is... As 'dood' stated, NOTHING can convince him otherwise! So, IF he is wrong, he would be blind to it.
Let me highlight this, this was...
Imagine for a moment, that Jesus really was a supernatural being, BUT, not as 'dood' believes he is. Imagine that, being supernatural, he could return in human form... Imagine he did, and PERSONALLY met 'dood' and told him directly that he is way wrong on what his message was, and that salvation isn't through him, but in adherance to the Law of God, as God and Jesus stated*. Would 'dood' believe him, or deny him, since Jesus isn't telling him what he "wants to believe"? Or, at the very least, would 'dood' ask for "PROOF" that he is Jesus?
* Matthew 5:17-21
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
Remember, Jesus was a practicing Jew, and he taught and lived by 'The Law' (Torah). BUT, Christians believe that 'The Law' no longer applies, as NO MATTER WHAT, as long as the believe correctly, they win salvation, regardless of whether they live by the law, or break them all... It's the ultimate 'get out of jail free' card, as they can live the most sinful, blasphemous, murderous life possible, but if on their death bead, they truely accept Jesus into their heart, and ask for his forgiveness, all is good and they win the prize.
At least the Muslims MUST live righteously, where as Christians merely should, but that's not really what counts. In fact, most Christians put their 'shoulds' on others, but not themselves. They do a poor job of walking in the footsteps if their prophet.
As Bruce Lee said, "A closed mind cannot think freely."
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 29, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
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Great thread!
This thread shows something about the psyche of rock climbers and the lure of our sport.
How many other sport-oriented web forums would spawn a guess like, "Is it logical to believe in something that cannot be proved? Why do you believe in God?" And get over 4,000 replies.
I don't see that happening on a bowling, golf or baseball-oriented website. Our sport lures in the most creative, open minded, curious and thoughtful amongst the human race.
I have another response to offer: What difference does it make whether I believe (or know for sure) whether a "God" exists?
Since my belief or knowing won't change the external reality my answer is: No. However, my own belief or knowledge may change ME in some way.
Thus, what matters to me is: Should belief or knowledge in existence of God change me or the way I live my life?
My answer is no. If I don't believe in God, I won't suddenly change my behavior and become amoral, anti-social, evil, hateful or perverse.
And if that answer is no, then the question itself becomes irrelevant.
Which leaves me at this point. During a lecture by a Tibetan Buddhist monk someone asked: "What is the purpose of life?" Without hesitation he answered in one sentence:
"To be happy and live in the present."
He felt no reason or need to say more.
I became completely satisfied with his answer and now adopt it as my own.
Thus I need not waste anymore time trying to prove to myself whether God exists even though I remain fascinated with the scientific efforts to understand the origins of the universe and life itself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
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It matters (that you believe in the "one true God") because if you do NOT believe, you'll burn in hell.
PAUSE / EDIT
Such is the belief of millions of grandparents, still. (Mine included.) Taught to them by their parents, ad infinitum. And foisted, moreover, upon their grandchildren.
The modern prescription: Break this chain.
What we in America and Europe have to be thankful for is that our countries have been much more successful in recent generations at breaking this chain than the Middle Eastern ones. But with the internet and Wikipedia, there is hope.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
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TWP... The reasons it matter are:
-9/11
-Blue Laws
-Anti Evolution & Big Bang (see Texas school board)
-Dispensationalists influencing wars in the Middle East, and US policy regarding Israel
-Murdering of abortion doctors
-Denying civil rights to minorities (Gays)
And that's just a bit of what's current... You do know history, right? It mattered further back in the past too, and hundreds of millions of people were killed because of it.
It needs to matter less, BUT, many of the faithful organize and lobby to push their agenda of everybody, and they are succeeding in some areas of the US, to the detriment of our collective best interest.
As a friend of mine says, "Religion should be like masturbation... Somehting you love to do in private, but don't do publically."
Thing is... Many of the faithful believe they have to wank off on us publically, because the Bible commands them to do so... To "witness", and "spread the word".
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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"Many of the faithful believe they have to wank off on us publicly ..."
Isn't that what you and HFCS are doing too, constantly here, especially HFCS who's trying so hard to start his "alternative religion"
You're just the other side of the coin and preaching your "brand" of "religion".
I know you guys are are going to scream "Hey we're not preaching any "religion" !!!
You guys crack me up .....
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Yea, Werner... I'm wanking off on people, making claims that you have to just take on my word for, that cannot be verified.
SHEESH!?!?!?!
But, hey... At least that reply didn't read like you have Tourette's, as per your usual retorts.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 29, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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re: "alternative religion"
No. Then again, "alternative operating system" for the "practice" of living in the 21st century, sure, why not.
.....
EDIT
Just think, too... Climbers are supposedly the easy group - more open to change, more open to walking the wild side, than average - it's the public at large which is the harder group - that is, to dialog with about bringing innovation to beliefs that make up one's OS (operating system) for the practice of living.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
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"alternative operating system"
Yeah, name it anything you want.
Like you really understand the real operating system to begin with in completeness which you obviously don't otherwise you would see how everything naturally adjusts to time and circumstance.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 29, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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"Like you really understand the real operating system to begin with..."
So until we do, do nothing? Just sit on our butts when we're not climbing, is that it? Rescue in the valley is your job, looking past traditional belief systems - in the interest of best practices in the practice of living - is mine.
.....
Who would argue with the fact that modern man knows a great deal more about nature's operating system - esp as it applies to him on this earth in this solar system - than pre-scientific man. That fact is the justification (the grounds) for a new operating system.
"Our future depends powerfully on how well we understand this Cosmos..." -Carl Sagan
...and how successfully we incorporate this understanding into an adaptive "operating system for life guidance." -HFCS
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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"So until we do, do nothing?"
It's already perfectly presented and understood by 3/4 of the entire cosmic creation.
You are in the 1/4 portion, completely lost and following all your other lost cases.
That's what lost cases prisoners do in jail, they learn and manufacture new ways to farther their criminal efforts.
There's no escape for you yet ......
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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It's already perfectly presented and understood by 3/4 of the entire cosmic creation. WOW!!! What a self-centered thing to say, and so confidently to boot.
What makes you so confident that we, here on Earth, are the only living beings capable of complex and/or abstract thought?
Not sure why I ask... It's not like you are going to give an answer with anything of substance.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 29, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
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Responding to rrrADAM who wrote:
"TWP... The reasons it matter are:
-9/11
-Blue Laws
-Anti Evolution & Big Bang (see Texas school board)
-Dispensationalists influencing wars in the Middle East, and US policy regarding Israel
-Murdering of abortion doctors
-Denying civil rights to minorities (Gays)"
Your comments are relevant on the legal and political level rather than philosophical reasons to dissent from what I said. In fact, I may be in sympathy with your political prejudices on the issues you enumerate.
I know my history and the lesson to be learned about religion on the one hand and law and politics on the other: the two should never be mixed. Government should never take sides or become entangled in religious issues.
The First Amendment to the US Constitution seeks to create a division between church and state. This is the solution though in practice the line is hard to draw and battles over the boundary will persist forever. You are describing the behaviors of people who in my opinion don't share the American values of separation of church and state and freedom of speech. Those actions are the types of evil that should be resisted at every turn. I do believe in resistance to evil, ignorance and intolerance, but not because of any religion of my own or belief in the existence of God.
Thanks for your feedback rrrADAM.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
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You're not ready for the answer yet since you cant understand the "entire cosmic creation".
The "entire cosmic creation" includes everything including the spiritual stratum.
You're stuck somewhere, mostly trying to debunk gobee and his bible.
:-)
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
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TWP... Agreed.
Werner... I asked you directly, as your statement implies that we here on Earth ARE the entire cosmic creation... That 3/4 of its population understands.
So, I asked you "what makes you so confident that we here on Earth is all there is", as far as thinking individuals capable of understanding, or asking about God?"
It was a simple question... But, as I said, you would provide nothing with substance. See, if you ask me "why" I believe something, I will give you an answer. You on the other hand, will not and/or cannot.
And a "careful" reading of my posts show that 'debunking the Bible' isn't my primary focus, nor topic... It is the thinking process of many believers, and their ability to keep their beliefs compartmentalized and seperate from their thinking critical mind. But, since the Bible is the "proof" for many, and that's all they offer to support their "thinking", it's an easy topic to debunk. People are more skeptical buying a car, than they are in regards to something they view as the "most important thing in their life". Doesn't make sense, does it? What's more important... A car, or their belief?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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what makes you so confident that we here on Earth is all there is
Again ... I never ever made any statement like that.
You are the one that is projecting yourself onto what I said.
You also can't read nor understand because it's way over your head.
Stick to trying to debunk the bible. At least that's your game you're familiar with.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 29, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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Fair enough... We'll play this game...
Please explain what you mean here, how you get the numbers, and what they refer to:It's already perfectly presented and understood by 3/4 of the entire cosmic creation.
They are your exact words, so you can explain what you mean, right?
Please, be specific... Again, what do you mean, how do you get the numbers, and what do they refer to?
I look forward to a chance of getting a detailed reply... Even though I'm sure youo recognize you stepped in poo here, and just want to hide the fact and discretely try to get it off your shoe.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 29, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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What's more, they are populated by climbers who are clinging by last thin threads to the old notion of there being a "ghostly spirit" in the machine (when there is none) way more than by climbers willing and able to invest their energies to come to grips with the scientifically supported view that they are molecular machines, material bodies, which borrow their life energy (or life spirit) for a short time, yada, yada.
This was aimed at me, of course, but High Furc. looses his way the moment he projects his "ghostly spirit" onto the machine, which is once more the evolved and discriminating mind trying desperately to contrast no-thing with something, namely a machine, matter, stuff we can evaluate, measure, and so forth, all the things that "exist" in the material world. Spirit does no "exist," but it IS.
John
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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so you can explain what you mean, right?
Adam LOL
I already did in my post previous to my last one above.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 29, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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But I notice you again didn't answer the question.
There is this idea - and I remind you, it is not only my idea but the growing idea of umpteen million others - that we are our material-based lifeworks, the sum total of our machinery of life. So the question again, how much time have you tried to adapt to this idea, to come to grips with this idea - psychologically - instead of fighting it - to see if it is as bad for belief, as bad for the practice of living, as many a naysayer would have us believe.
It's a pertinent, totally relevant question - because umpteen millions (conservatives esp) don't even try.
"If this body is all there is, then life is a big fat joke." Pat Robertson.
You think he gave any effort at all to try to adapt to the modern view as revealed by science?
Counsel: Spend your energies adapting to it, not fighting it.
.....
spirit (derived from the Latin, spirare, to breathe) that's all - there needn't be anything mystical or supernatural about it. My dog is a spiritual being having a canine experience. Pat Robertson is a spiritual being (although a seriously ill-informed one) having a human experience.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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that we are our material-based lifeworks, the sum total of our machinery of life.
This is where you and I differ completely. ^^^^^
Life comes from life and the spiritual soul is that life force not that matter is the source of life ....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Nov 29, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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thaDood
You have the Muslim and Allah thing totally skewed.
Allah means "the Supreme Being." Allah Akbar.
"God is great." Allah means the greatest.
Try to see beyond the "dogma" ......
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
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No Allah is the same God you worship.
God has infinite names ....
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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Then you are in poor fund of knowledge .....
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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I just liked the #.
No agenda, thanks!
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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Why not? Believe in God? Are you too smart for a god? Think about it?
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 29, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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No I never every disrespected Jesus Christ.
He is bonafide saktyavesa-avatara of the Christians.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Nov 30, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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There is this idea - and I remind you, it is not only my idea but the growing idea of umpteen million others - that we are our material-based lifeworks, the sum total of our machinery of life. So the question again, how much time have you tried to adapt to this idea, to come to grips with this idea - psychologically - instead of fighting it - to see if it is as bad for belief, as bad for the practice of living, as many a naysayer would have us believe.
------
I think these are valid questions. They are also age-old questions which have not been changed much by technological advances insofar as human nature hasn't changed much. The content of our rational minds also does not alter the basic questions, which were looked at in fantastic detail by Yalom and existential psychology in the 80s and beyond. There are many more questions beyond the decline and demise of our bodies and psyches and egos. The work is in staying with the discomfort to realize, at depth, that we are not, at the most basic level, the "machinery of life." Those are only forms, ever mutating, the coming and going dance of the "eternally nameless" Tao.
JL
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Nov 30, 2010 - 07:17am PT
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dood...
Again, you don't know me, and, as I said, you would just dismiss me being a "born again Christian" (you know what that means, right?), by saying I must not truely have believed... Which is EXACTLY what you did. I need not go into how, I believed, he came into my life and heart, other than to say it was similar to yours, and I was just as confident.
But you just CANNOT accept this, so you have to dismiss it, and the only way you can do that is to think: I must not have truely accepted him. Flawed thinking.
As far as Allah goes... It is simply the Aramaic word for God. Jesus spoke mainly Aramaic, and, as a practicing Jew, he fell prostrate to (as per the Torah) and prayed to "God", which he called "Allah". The Abrahamic religions are mainly Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and they ALL three worship the same God (the God of Abraham), as they all three use the OT, just as you do. Do you know what other religion falls prostrate to and prays to Allah? Muslims. The Qur'an even refers to Mary, mother of Jesus, more by name than does the NT, and they too are awaiting the 2nd coming of Jesus. Like I said, same God... But NONE of that fits within your small box of dogma, so you must reject and deny it, even though simply looking outside of your box will show this to be true, and irrefutable.
So, if you can "step out of your box of dogma" for a second, and really think about it... Muslims pray in the same manner, and to the ssame God that Jesus did. You, however, DO NOT EVEN PRAY TO THE SAME GOD JESUS DID!... You pray to Jesus, and he would rebuke you for this.
But... Just as you need to dismiss my previous 'conversion', in order for everything in your box of dogma to "make sense", you do the same to the Muslims, in falsely believing that they have a different God. Their God, is the God of the OT, just as was Jesus', and all Jews.
Which highlights, that you didn't really answer my question... "Why if Muslims can use the EXACT same arguments as you do, they are wrong, but you are right?"
Imagine a Muslim in this thread, posting up his "personal conversion experience" in this thread as evidense of his God... Would you accept this? Would you believe it is genuine evidence that his idea of God is correct? If not, then WHY, as that's what you expect us to do? Saying "Well, it's the wrong God" isn't an answer, as again, they could say that to you as well.
See... (your words, with two words changed)I have nothing "skewed". Christianity is a religion, and Jesus is their god.
That is their "dogma"!!
I don't believe in their dogma, religion, or their god!
See how that works? I'll bet you don't, though. Works only for you.
As Johannes Keply said:
"...the truth emerges only when all ideology, prejudice and dogma are set aside."
But, you are blind to any truth but your own, as "ideology, prejudice and dogma" are strong within you, and you cannot see past it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 30, 2010 - 11:02am PT
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L, that's quite a paragraph you wrote there.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 30, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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Largo wrote:
"The content of our rational minds also does not alter the basic questions, which were looked at in fantastic detail by Yalom and existential psychology in the 80s and beyond."
Please recommend some books/publications/websites on this subject. This sounds like material in line with my thought. I'd like to read more.
Post or send me a personal message.
Thanks for your time responding to my query.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 30, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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I'm reminded of something Carl Sagan mentioned in Cosmos. It was something like: Since there are 100 gazillion books in the world and you can't get to them all in a lifetime, choose wisely.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 30, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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High Fructose said:
"there are 100 gazillion books in the world and you can't get to them all in a lifetime, choose wisely."
Indeed. I shall waste no more time on the Bible or the Koran.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Extra, extra get your good news right here...
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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So I invite you to share your conversion experience like I have so graciously done so. Where exactly do you stand? Are you "born again Christian."? And to answer your question, of course I know what a "born again Christian " is!! I am one!!! What is your point? My POINT is that, even if I share with you my "conversion experience", you MUST dismiss it, since, yes I am an atheist, as you believe that once saved, always saved, and this is wrong... I prove that.
The details of my "conversion", and acceptance of Jesus into my heart, won't really matter to you, as NO MATTER WHAT, you will dismiss it as not as meaningful as yours, and this is flawed logic. But you MUST do this so what you believe "still can be true". Can you think of ANYTHING I can write, that you won't try to just pick apart, looking for differences, so you can dismiss it, and you can "still be right"?
Let's just say that after he came into my life, I believed with all of my heart that he was with me, and I eagerly partcipated in witnessing, camps, and lived that life. I was 100% sure of his existance, not 99.99%, 100%!!! But, see, you dismiss this, as it just must not have been the case... You MUST believe that I had some reservation, but it's NOT the case.
YEARS after living that life, I simply began to seriously consider things that didn't fit inside my "box of dogma", and the more I looked, the more I saw that what I believed just didn't match up to reality, nor was it even plausible.
Just as I said, that if Jesus were to appear to you, and tell you himself that you are very wrong in your belief that hsi death wins you salvation, you would deny him, since it isn't what you "want to believe". At the very least, you would demand proof, and if he gave it to you, you would find a reason to still deny him. YOU ONLY BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT TO, PERIOD!
And, as far as conversions and 'proofs' go... I have a collegue here at work who truely believes, 100%, "that her grandmother couldn't afford new teeth, and had dental desease that was making her sick... She prayed to Jesus one night, and awoke with all new teeth... Even the dentists couldn;t explain it!" She was told this when she was 8, by her grandmother, and she believes it, and cites this as proof of the existance of Jesus as God. Yea! OK...
Now, I'm sure you "interpret" your experience as supernatural too, all I can say is: Yea! OK...
I'm sure you dismiss this guy's "testimonial" as well:
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/3884
Sad... His family even turned their backs on him when he became an atheist.
And I did not limit my suggestions as to what you currently believe, to you singularly being "never really born again". I don't know where you stand. I assumed you are an atheist, therefore I said you must either be in denial(if you indeed had a born again commitment/experience) or etc. You, of course, latched on to the "I must not truly have believed" and furthermore added "which is EXACTLY what you did." And you are either blind, or short on memory, because I also added "in denial" and so forth! Please tell me(us)...where do you stand? Are you a Muslim? I was under the assumption that you were an atheist, and were of the mindset that there is no God. If that is the case, and you believe that there is no God, then you never "truly" had a relationship with Jesus, because He doesn't exist as far as you are concerned!! He never existed(as far as you are concerned)so how could you have had an experience with The Living Word, if, as you believe, He doesn't exist?
Within this one paragragh, you state that I am wrong in you simply dismissing what I'm saying regarding my previous status as a born again, by say that "I must not truely have believed", then you say, I must not truely have believed, else I'd still be saved. This is exactly what I said you would do, and you did it, denied doing it, but still do it. Because, again, I MUST not have been, so your belief "still can be true", as if my conversion was genuine, then it means your belief is wrong. Easier for you to just deny my being a born again. Flawed thinking.
rrrADAM- "All three use the Old Testament."
This is true. But they include their own book, the Koran, which comes first and foremost in regards to their beliefs. And they do not believe that the OT and the NT are infallible. And they certainly do not believe in the Divinity of Jesus Christ. They consider Him a mere prophet, even lower then Mohamed(their prophet). We do not believe that Mohamid was indeed a prophet of God. We believe he was a false prophet, and the angel whom appeared to him was actually a demon, not an angel sent from God!.
Same goes for the Jews, of which Jesus and his mother were. Tis their religion Christians have hijacked, just as the Muslims hijacked Judaism as well. You also look to the NT first, as the Muslims do the Qur'an. And of course you believe that Mohamad was approached by a demon... You have to ratinalize a erason to dismiss their belief, so yours "still can be true".
See, the thing you miss is... When you truely understand WHY you dismiss all other religions, you will understand why I dismiss yours. But, just as Muslims can easily see the delusion in Christians, they cannot in themselves, since they are in their own box of dogma. Same goes for you... You can easily see the delusion in Muslims, or any competing faith, but not your own, since you are hopelessly stuck inside your box... Seeking only to allow things insode your box that reaffirm your belief, but reject ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that does not fit within the box. As exampled by my experiance as a born again. Even to the point of using grossly flawed thinking to dismiss things that just don't fit.
Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.
rrrADAM- "Muslims pray in the same manner, and to the same God that Jesus did."
This is not true. Jesus prayed to God the Father, the Triune God of the Trinity. The Godhead: "Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name..." He referred to Him as Father through out the New Testament. Again, DENIAL!!!
Jesus was a practicing Jew, most likely an Essene, meaning he lived his life by a pretty strict code, and he prayed as the OT outlined... He fell prostrate to, and prayed to "Allah", the aramaic word for God, which is what he mainly spoke.
And AGAIN... The God of the OT, is the God of Abraham, so both Jews and Muslims, and Jesus, ALL prayed to this God. You do NOT, regardless of how you choose to rationalize it. Again, more denial, so that what you want to believe "still can be true". It is Christians, NOT the Muslims who have 'changed' the God of Abraham, and the OT, to suit them. Again... Jews, Jesus, and Muslims all pray(ed) to the same God. You do not.
And Jesus didn't pray to the "Triune God of the Trinty"... The idea of the Trinity didn't even come about until the 4th century, during the 1st Council of Nicaea. You lack a deep understanding of the history of your belief system, as one major reason for this convening of this council was to fight Arianism, which is/was the belief that Jesus, while of divine nature, was NOT God himslef, but more a divine "creation" of God, sent to do his work.
Again... Look outside you box of dogma. Not that I think you will, but regarding that, you can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
Note, that from there, you can look into the 1st Council, and even the history of the belief in the "Trinity".
See all of the above... Much of this is what I actually considered, OBJECTIVELY, that lead me to see the delusion that I was in... No different than the delusion I could easily see in other religions, and even within other sects of Christianity. You, however, dismiss all of this because you only look at it SUBJECTIVELY, and most often through a soda straw, because you want to believe what you want to believe, and that influences your ability to be objective.
Morton's Demon is very strong in you, my friend.
(Note - The authour of this found his own way out of his "box of dogma" in terms of believing in a young Earth.)
To highlight this type of thinking, I wrote this some time ago, and it appies to you 100%:
Note... If you are unfamiliar with the Branch Davidians you should read up on it first, here's a great source of information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_Dividian
Imagine for a moment that David Koresh, whom we all know was killed allong with many of his followers in Waco, TX when his compound burned, reappeared and claimed to be resurrected, which is proof of his claim to be the Messiah.
He was willing to prove this by submitting to DNA tests, to prove that it really was him, and that he had in fact been resurected from the dead.
To move through this quickly, we will state that the entire process of DNA verification has been thorough and transparent. (i.e. Previous DNA samples from him and his family prove a valid standard, DNA confirmation of his burnt corpse, and present DNA, transparent and perfect chain of custody of samples, perfect lab practices to preclude contaminations, and all this has even been tripple verified at 2 other labs independantly, who collected their own samples, etc... Hell, for good measure he even turned the Sparklets water to wine in the labs, simply by touching the bottle on the cooler, as we'll say he has a sense of humor.)
And any other tests asked of him, he performed and passed.
Now... My point is, that I do NOT currently believe in the supernatural, because there is absolutely no 'evidence' of it... But that I would be forced to believe that he has been resurected, despite my 'strong belief' that it would be impossible, as I would now see overwhelming evidence that it is possible, and in fact has happened. I would believe it, and would reconsider my atheism. So I am open minded enough to consider any evidence, and let it lead me where it takes me, despite my present views.
How about the 'faithfull'... Would they believe it ??? Would they believe that something that's prophecised in their 'faith', and that actually comes with overwhelming proof, is true in the form of David Koresh ??? Would they put all their faith in David Koresh, and believe him to be their Messiah ???
If not, then why not ??? It has been prophecised, it even comes with proof--proof that cannot be explained away, or even reasonably doubted. Would it be because it doesn't fit with what they want to happen--their hopes ??? For those who forsake him, David even asks them directly, "What would it take for you to believe I am the Messiah?" Would they believe it if he provided that proof as well ???
Now, given the above, please answer the question I posed in it ???
How about the 'faithfull'... How 'bout you, 'dood'? Would you believe it ??? Would you believe that something that's prophecised in your 'faith', and that actually comes with overwhelming proof, is true in the form of David Koresh ??? Would you put all of your faith in David Koresh, and believe him to be your Messiah ???
See, I'd have to believe it, but would you ???
Point is, I am more open minded that you 'think you are', as I am guided by the evidence, more so than my wants and desires... You are guided by your desire to maintain your faith, and that desire influences what you see as reality, as no matter what, if it doesn't agree with what you believe, in your core, you will ultimately deny it... And come up with some rationalization. Even Jesus himself, if he were to return and tell you that you have your head up your arse, you would deny him.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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OK, I'll play this game, to prove my point*...
When I was 14 my dad died, bad circumstances... Lived with uncle, who was a Lutheran, so was "taught" that way of life, but just went, never REALLY believed.
Then his marriage broke up, he couldn't afford to keep me an my cousin, and asked my mon to take me back. Didn't want me. Ended up in group homes and fostor homes, and juvie when one wasn't available (long story, not relevant).
Through all that time, I never really believed, and just went through the motions... Mainly consisting of praying at night.
Then, I ran away from a group home that was terrible and abusive, got caught and ended up in juvie again.
At that time, feeling isolated and alone, and in tears, I started reading the Bible in earnest, then fell to my knees and asked Jesus to "help me". I felt an overwhelming sense of peace and hope come into me at that time. I BELIEVED at this time. I FELT him, just as much as I feel the love for my kids today. Convinced that he was in my heart, and sought only to improve my connection to him, and to do his will.
For the next several years, I lived as a "born again"... Reading the Bible, attending camps, church, witnessing, etc. These weren;t things I was TOLD TO DO... They were things I WANTED to do... I loved him just as much as I was convinced he loved me. Even in times of great dispare, I still felt his love for me, and that gave me hope.
Note - This came to a head when I was working the 2nd Step in a revovery program, as I am currently 22 years clean and sober, and that step deals with a "higher power". That step took me quite some time. And, get this, I even sponsor people who are Christians, and if that works for them, great. It's a higher power of their understanding, not mine. And, my wife is a Cathy (although she's really a Protty, but doesn't know it), and I was there when my kids were baptized, as it was important to my in-laws.
OK... There. Now what? How is the story of my conversion any less valid than is yours? Because your's was/is longer?
See, there is no "denial" here... That lies with you. I once believed, confidently, but came to SEE that I was drawing hope from a delusion, for reasons I outlined in previous replies to you, which you neglect to OBJECTIVELY weigh.
Now, how about going back and addressing the very things I've taken the time to compose, instead of switching the topic, and ignoring it. Just address the points in my last post, OK? ALL of them, not just "cherry picking", and ignoring the meat. I gave, now it's your turn.
Seriously... I you believe you have "reasonable answers" to my points, then you should have no problem "reasonably" articulating them... As the one "pulling teeth" here, is me trying to get you to address some very simple points.
I even pointed out where you have a totally incorrect view of the very history of some of your beliefs, yet you just "ignore" it. Easier to "deny" that way, huh?
*Now, what's the point I'm proving in telling you my conversion stroy? I've already said it... You will only attempt to pick it apart, in order to dismiss it, so your belief "still can be true".
How do I know this? Because predictable people, are just that predictable. And what is required for you to maintain your beliefs makes you predictable. Sorry you view this as arrogance, but, hey, it's not like I can "beat around the bush" with you.
As Thomas Jefferson said:
"Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them."
Now, what makes much of what you believe "unintelligible propositions"? Your denial of facts and history... Like your incorrect view that Muslims worship a different God than that of the OT. Your statement that Jesus worshipped a "Triune God". Defending the obvious contradictions in the Bible, yet believing that it is without flaw. I can go on if you like, but you have a view of reality and history that is incorrect, and even when this is pointed out to you, you REFUSE to "objectively" look to see if you are wrong... You just regergitate rationalizations and denial.
Which, is what I couldn't do, and that lead to me seeing the "true light", that I was living in a delusion.
So, I "believed" and was "convinced", just as you are of the existance of Jesus... I even "believed" I saw him working in my life... Giving me strength. I just saw that I was wrong.
Hell, if a person really "believes" that wearing the same underwear during the World Series will have an impact, they draw HOPE from it, as if they believe that, but forget to wear the underear, they are truely worried. But, it's a "false hope", as it's all in the head, isn't it? But, even though it's all in the head, it still has a very REAL effect on their psyche, doesn't it?
EDIT: Sorry to sound like such a weenie about this now, but if you look back, my original replies to you were much more cordial, yet still direct. It is all the ignoring of most of my points, and throwing out blatently false facts and histories that tries my patience... I don't to willful ignorance well, or repeating myself trying to get an answer well either... My bad.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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BTW, I have been studying scripture since before you were born.
Are you familiar with the logic fallacy: Argument from authority?
Again ^10... Your few answers can be used by any other competing religion, yet you believe them correct only for yours. And this is what you will not address.
Like I said... Even if Jesus appeared to you himself and told you that you were all wrong, you would deny him, as you will only believe what you want to believe. Try to think about that for a while, then when it clicks, report back.
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WBraun
climber
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Jesus Christ was son of God and direct messenger of the God himself.
The same God Jesus Christ worshiped is also worshiped by the Muslims.
There's only ONE God and he has unlimited forms.
Why this daDood guy think that Christians are the only ones that worship God and that the only God is theirs.
DaDood do you even know what God looks like?
The Supreme Lord is not the exclusive sole property of the so called Christians only .....
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WBraun
climber
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We are body, soul, and spirit
We are not the body. The material body is the vehicle we operate from.
Soul and spirit are not two independent.
The soul is spirit .....
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WBraun
climber
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DaDood
Jesus Christ said you are wrong .....
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WBraun
climber
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I'm not playing any games.
I'm telling you the truth.
You're wrong.
The same God you are worshiping is being worshiped by the Muslims as Allah.
The transcendental sound vibrations of Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Madhava, etc. all are non different from God.
You are being challenged .....
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WBraun
climber
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Why would He die for the sins of the world if the didn't need Him to?
Not everyone on the planet is/was sinful as you so claim.
He was preaching to some very poor fund of knowledge class of people and that was his method according to time and circumstance.
Other bonafide representatives taught in different manners according to time and circumstance.
Jesus Christ was not the only bonafide teacher.
Only according to the Christian misinterpretations and understandings .....
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WBraun
climber
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You are taking the wide path WB.
No you are just guessing what a path is according to the bible only.
Jesus Christ was far more advanced than anything you've let on to how it's a narrow path.
Jesus Christ knew 100% that Allah, Madhava, is the God.
Even lord Buddha was God himself but ultimately preached an atheistic philosophy for a reason unknown to you.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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'dood'... Yes, I did say what convinced me I believed in a delusion, in many previous replies in this thread, to you and others... I even said as much in my last reply regarding my "conversion"... Reading comprehension fail: See, there is no "denial" here... That lies with you. I once believed, confidently, but came to SEE that I was drawing hope from a delusion, for reasons I outlined in previous replies to you, which you neglect to OBJECTIVELY weigh.
And, as to you thinking my reasoning is flawed regarding how could I be saved if I later realized there is no God, you reading comprehension needs work my friend, as I wrote:So, I "believed" and was "convinced", just as you are of the existance of Jesus... I even "believed" I saw him working in my life... Giving me strength. I just saw that I was wrong. It's not MY premise, that "once saved, always saved", it's yours. Think is, I "was saved", just as saved as you believe you are now. I later saw I was wrong, and believed in a delusion. But see, just like I said, you will do backflips in twisting your thinking in order to dismiss what I say, so now you do 'circular reasoning'... I couldn't have been saved then, since I am not now. You try to put it on me, saying that my "conversion" or "belief" was not real, since I don't believe now. Like I said, predictable people act predictably, which is why I said you would do this, and you did. Remember this:
OK, I'll play this game, to prove my point*...
[snip story of my conversion]
*Now, what's the point I'm proving in telling you my conversion stroy? I've already said it... You will only attempt to pick it apart, in order to dismiss it, so your belief "still can be true".
How do I know this? Because predictable people, are just that predictable. And what is required for you to maintain your beliefs makes you predictable. And, guess what... You proved my point!
See, what you are doing is trying to shoe-horn in this argument:
"If you were truely saved, it is because there IS a God, and since there is (according to you) and I no longer believe, I am a) either in denial that there is a God, or b) I was never truely saved, since, as you believe, once saved - always saved", both of which conveniently dismiss what I'm saying, so what you believe 'still can be true', but it is flawed circular logic, based on an a flawed axiom - That there IS a God, and that he is exactly what you believe him to be. What you are NOT considering, is that there is no God, and that it is a delusion... Not in the least... You absolutely cannot consider this, thus your thinking with limited tools, as you HAVE TO COME UP WITH THE SAME OUTCOME: THERE IS A GOD, AND IT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE. You cannot employ any tool, or line of reasoning that even has ther possibility of showing that you are wrong.
And, no, you HAVE NOT addressed my main point, which is that the very same arguments you use for the validity of your belief, can be used by any competing religion, yet you dismiss all others as wrong, yet the argument works for you. You know, just like you, they quote scripture too. What you are missing is you do the exact same things that you dismiss as false in all religions that compete with yours, but have NOT said why the arguments work for you, but not anyone else.
Even your answer to "If David Koresh...", and "If Jesus appearred to you and told you you are wrong...", as you answer boils down to, "I already know the truth!" As I said, even if you are wrong, there is nop way for you to see this. That midset is what I was able to get out of, and to objectively consider eberything, where you are hoplessly stuck in SUBJECTIVE thinking, leading you to "confirmation bias".
The FACTS and HISTORY are there, staring you in the face, but you avoid looking it in the eye... You just wave your hand, and say, "I know the truth", and will not even weigh it. You refuse to even put anything in your scales that doesn't fit into your box of dogma.
Why do I even try?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/09/25/notes092509.DTL
Again, this REALLY does surmise the problem with your thinking, and exactly what I'm trying to get you to see:
http://godisimaginary.com/i7.htm
Just like in that article, you even make up your own answers, so it "still can be true"... 2nd animal Jesus mentioned in Matthew MUST be referring to his 2nd coming, 'yea... that's it'... Mohomad MUST have been approached by a demon, 'yea... that's it'... Jesus prayed to the Triune God, 'yea... that's it'... "Allah", the same Aramaic word for God that Jesus used MUST be a different God, 'yea... that's it'... Shall I go on?
'My belief doesn't come from the Bible', but all you do is quote scripture in many of your arguments -- and even of John, no less... Do you know what most Biblical scholars think of John, and the value of that Gospel? And "Jesus" didn't say anything in the Bible... The Bible is a collection of what OTHER PEOPLE WAY AFTER THE FACT, WHO NEVER EVEN MET HIM, SAID HE SAID, OF WHICH MUCH IS CONTRADICTORY. Are you familiar with the Synoptic Gospel Problem, and/or the Jesus Seminar? Note that the Jesus Seminar is composed mostly of theologians and academic clergy. Buit then, hey, all those academic Christians MUST be wrong, since it doesn't fit into your box of dogma. And who's right? ONLY the ones who agree with you, and your narrow interpretaion.
So... Curious... Some simple questions here...
Care to declare your position on these?
1. How old do you think the universe and Earth are?
2. Have human beings evolved into what we are today, meaning, some time ago, we were NOT human beings?
3. Did God flood the world, killing all, sans Noah and his family, and all the animals he took on the Ark?
4. Did Jonah live for 3 days in the belly of a fish/whale?
5. Did Jesus know, all along, that he was going to end up crucified?
6. When does the soul FIRST inhabit the body?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
Indeed, made part of the family of God by the saving work of redemption of Christ!
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Matthew 13:9, He who has ears, let him hear.”
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jesus knows what He's talking about...
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.2, John MacArthur
John 8:58, Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Does go-B stand for "God Bot"?
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 10, 2010 - 10:34am PT
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So after 4000 plus posts the god haters are plum worn out and have fled the field
You're such a flippant buffoon sometimes.
Your so-called "god-haters" are religious critics.
You should thank God this morning you live in America - with just enough of a glut of religious critics that it is not Iran or Afghanistan.
I knew it would turn out this way.
My, you ARE the genius.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Dec 11, 2010 - 08:46am PT
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I'm reading a very interesting book: The Evolution Of God by Robert Wright. It covers the development of religions from early animism and shamans to our present day "Jihads."
It just thought I'd throw that out there for anyone really seriously asking the question.
It's a fascinating read. I can't wait to see how it ends!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 11, 2010 - 11:05am PT
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another one in that vein, phil-g, is god: a biography by jack miles, a former jesuit priest who spent a lot of time in rome and the middle east and then decided to up and get married.
this book won the pulitzer prize one year for ... biography. some might think it ought to have been for fiction. it produced the most amusing book review i ever read, by paul wilkes in the l.a. times, where god jots a note back to miles for this rather unauthorized biography:
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-04-09/books/bk-52454_1_god-biography-jack
a similar book, the origin of satan by elaine pagels, deals with the evolution of the devil, good old (bad old) satan-lucifer, who actually started out as one of those angels who put people to the test. it seems satan really came into his own when rigorous orthodoxies showed up and he got to play the role of being responsible for the wrong beliefs of the other guy.
miles became an episcopalian, a handy shelter for those who can't live by catholic rules but have become addicted to its beliefs and comforts. i suspect that our overposting gobee has had a similar current in his life. pagels was pretty much an agnostic scholar until hit with a double punch of personal tragedy, when she says it felt so good to walk into that baptist church where the black folks were singing so fervently.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 11, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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What the world needs is for an Engineer to redesign religion, make it better than it was before.
dingus, i've been through this before with huffy, but here's the prospectus:
i represent belief systems, incorporated.
having trouble out there in the big bad universe? things not making sense? feeling ill-at-ease, queasy, even a little depressed? before you take the test for lyme disease, consider that you may well be suffering the effects of the wrong belief system.
there are so many belief systems out there. a lot of them work well for a lot of people, but if yours puts you off balance, you may well need a new one, tailored especially to your karma, charisma, chrism and jism, the right geist for your zeitgeist.
come to belief systems, inc. our expert system engineers will exam every nook and cranny of your misery and construct the edifice of belief which will give you a new lease on life, improve your score in the dating game, bring untold wealth and power, and perhaps even jack you up a full tenth higher on the YDS. two letter grades are guaranteed. this for a modest advance on the reasonable tithe to be levied on certain health, prosperity and, dare we say, ecstasy (now, now), or at least, rapture.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 11, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
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Psalm 124:8, Our help is in the name of the Lord, who made heaven and earth.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 11, 2010 - 10:52pm PT
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"So after 4000 plus posts the god haters are plum worn out and have fled the field, leaving the faithful as strong as ever, proselytizing away.
Enlighten me if possible, DMT. Do you consider all the posters to this thread to be either god haters or faithful?
If there are other categories, do they count for anything?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 11, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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It is a study in madness
Hundreds of years after christ a subset of people decided they could be "better" than the obnoxious christians. They would actually follow the christian story literally and stone people to death. And so they do until today. It has been 1200 years of outdoing the Jones's."
How can you do anything but laugh?
Someone is always trying to burn you at the stake. But at the least, you know what is really happening.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 12, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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Yeah, that DMT rascal is certainly an enigma wrapped in a riddle. 9 out of 10 of his posts are spot-on, so it's strange when they're not.
.....
Yeah, criticizing religion is feckless, therefore silly, stupid. Also any musings or efforts directed toward potential new belief systems beyond traditional belief (religions that rely on supernaturalist doctrines) are silly stupid, too.
Yeah, that's the thinking I sometimes lapse into, too. -When I spend too much time talking it up in pop culture down at the Mall or in Walmart. Then I recall the 19th century naysayer who answered musings or attempts at flying something "heavier than air" with "That's crazy! If God wanted us to fly, he would've made us birds." Today's youth probably cannot relate, but yeah, that really happened.
Of course an irony here is that DMT is a high-freq flier. Haha.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 12, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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at last this thread has produced ripe fruit! dr. F, who began as a crusty skeptic, now talks to jesus every day! he'll be the next reverend moon!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 12, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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Evolution = theory. Supported by abundant and consistent facts and virtually the entire scientific community. Open to updating and nuancing, as new information is discovered and new techniques developed.
Creationism = hypothesis. Supported by a few, cherry-picked facts and fewer peer-reviewed scientists. Does not have standing of a theory, as it lacks proof apart from belief. Not open to change as knowledge improves. Will never be considered a theory, in that its claims aren't falsifiable.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 12, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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I so look forward to the Daily Readings From The Life of Christ.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 12, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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Me too! I'm just on the verge of converting! So inspirational. I'm going to write my own fairy tale book one day too for the world to obey.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 12, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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Merry Christmas and Happy NEW Year!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 12, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._MacArthur#Biography
Biography
The son of Jack MacArthur (an accomplished preacher in his own right),[7] John MacArthur was an athlete and attended Bob Jones University before transferring to Los Angeles Pacific College (now Azusa Pacific University). He later obtained his Masters of Divinity from Biola University's Talbot Theological Seminary, in La Mirada, California. He graduated with honors. From 1964 to 1966, he served as an associate pastor at Calvary Bible Church, in Burbank, California and, from 1966 to 1969, as a faculty representative for Talbot Theological Seminary. Then, in 1969, he became the third pastor in the then-short history of the nondenominational Grace Community Church of Sun Valley, California.[8]
His daily radio program, Grace to You, which is now broadcast throughout much of the world, began as an audio recording ministry to provide cassettes of his sermons to church members who were unable to attend. They were first broadcasted in Baltimore, Maryland, in 1977.[9]
In 1985, MacArthur became the president of The Master's College (formerly Los Angeles Baptist College), an accredited, four-year, liberal arts Christian college;[10] and, in 1986, he founded The Master's Seminary.
MacArthur also received an honorary doctorate from Talbot Theological Seminary[11] and an honorary doctorate from Grace Graduate School.[12]
Theological views
MacArthur describes himself as a "leaky dispensationalist."[13] While he holds to a premillennial and pre-tribulational rapture of the church and fulfillment of all the covenant promises made to the Jews at the end of the tribulation, he rejects some of the classic dispensational ideas, such as the Law having no application to the church. Dispensationalism has been a frequent source of controversy; critics claim that MacArthur's deviation from Reformed eschatology has led to an inconsistent Calvinism or self-contradiction suggesting two people groups of God, two roads to salvation, and the so-called, "Great parenthesis."
MacArthur is a key person in the debate over "Lordship salvation" in the 1980s, arguing against, "Free Grace theology." He states, "you must receive Jesus Christ for who He is, both Lord and Savior, to be truly saved (II Peter 2:20)."[14] Regarding eternal security, he states, "It should never be presented merely as a matter of being once saved, always saved--with no regard for what you believe or do. The writer of Hebrews 12:14 states frankly that only those who continue living holy lives will enter the Lord's presence."[15] MacArthur's views raised controversy within American, conservative evangelicalism and were challenged in print by non-lordship dispensationalist theologians, Charles Ryrie and Zane C. Hodges, who argued that MacArthur was teaching a form of works-based salvation.
In December 1989, the Bible Broadcasting Network terminated MacArthur's "Grace to You" program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ, "Lordship Salvation," and, "Hyper-Calvinism." Davey called these teachings, "confusing." In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a, "....drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to," and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election, "....convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism...." MacArthur preaches "Salvation" by election of God's sovereignty.[16] However, the term "Hyper-Calvinism" is used by some to denote 5-point Calvinism or even any strong defense of Calvinism, rather than the historical "Hyper-Calvinism" position that only the "Elect" may be offered the Gospel. This position does not seem to reflect the truth of MacArthur's position in his sermons. The controversy concerning the efficacy of the Christ's blood stems from MacArthur's statement that it is not the literal liquid blood of Christ that saves, but his sacrificial death on the Cross, a view that he espoused in an article titled, "Not His Bleeding, but His Dying," published in the May 1976 issue of the Grace to You family paper that is distributed to his church.
In 1983, MacArthur first published his belief in the doctrine of "incarnational sonship." In 1989, after some criticism, he defended his views in a plenary session of the annual convention of the Independent Fundamental Churches of America. Subsequently, MacArthur has written that he has reversed this position and no longer regards Christ's sonship as a role he assumed in his incarnation.[17]
MacArthur is a cessationist, arguing that Charismatic and Pentecostal theology and their practice regarding the "gifts of the Spirit" (healing, miracles, Speaking in Tongues, etc.) are not for these times.[18] Rich Nathan, pastor of Vineyard Church of Columbus published "A Response to Charismatic Chaos" in 1993[19].
His writings are similarly critical of other modern Christian movements such as those who run "seeker-friendly" church services such as Robert Schuller, Bill Hybels, and Rick Warren.[20] He is also an advocate of Biblical Counseling (also known as Nouthetic Counseling), which stresses the Bible as a tool for counseling and rejects psychological theories and techniques, considering Psychology as contrary to the Bible.[21] His stance has caused several controversies, the most notable of which was the first time an employee of an evangelical church had ever been sued for malpractice.[22][23][24]
He has called Catholicism "a Satanic religious system that wants to engulf the earth."[25]
John MacArthur does not believe that Roman Catholics are Christians, and believes that ecumenism will not work because it is "another religion". He said that Roman Catholic "Priests are broken, shattered, tragic, sad, disconnected people; no past, no present, no future. They belittle the sanctity of the marriage relationship. They are denied normal relationships; the friendship of marriage. They are victims of a terrible system with no biblical basis whatsoever. It is a soul-destroying process that leaves them in a situation of rampant temptation, exposure to the worst. And the only way to fulfill these drives is sinfully. And they do not have the restraint of a transformed or sanctified life." Regarding monks, MacArthur says "the inmates, I call them inmates, of monasteries, are unmarried men. Its just bizarre and abnormal. I read today the 50% are homosexual when they get there. The rest have no chance. These people are predators." He says of convents, "I am surprised Amnesty International doesn't raid these places."[25]
MacArthur has stated that the "theology of Islam is false," and that Allah is the "wrong god."[26]
MacArthur has also been a proponent of Christian abstinence from alcohol, though he does not think it is necessarily sinful.[27] (See Christianity and alcohol.)
He is the fifth cousin of US General Douglas MacArthur.[28]
END QUOTE
Type boldened by myself.
Edit:
I took this opportunity to learn what a cousin is.
If two generations separate John from Douglas, being a fifth cousin means John's line sprang from Douglas's Grandfather. Genetics are amazing. John acts a lot like Douglas did.
The base drummer in our band served in the South Pacific during WWII. He said MacArthur always had twelve uniformed and armed body guards with him even when among the troops.
The guards always faced the troops.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 12, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 13, 2010 - 09:29am PT
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The trouble with some of you is you want to take away what we have (Jesus), but you got nothing!
I don't think anyone wants to take away what you "have."
1) if you truly believe it, no one can take it away,
2) you can't take away what doesn't exist,
3) the problem - as stated many, many times here - is that we tire of having to scroll through your endless "cut and pastes" to get to content that someone actually used their own brain to create. If anyone wants to read the pages you post, they certainly know where to go.
4) you're not converting anyone and it's more likely you're actually driving people further away from being interested in your views. Therefore you're actually performing "satan's" work by driving people away from "the truth" you promote. Good job!
Edit: I for one (and I think I speak for most of the rationalist viewpoints here) believe it is you that clings to a delusion (aka; "nothing") and are not accepting personal responsibility for your own morality & direction in life. I don't live my life by some dubious parables in a book written by humans to control other humans. That's not to say that some of the concepts in the bible aren't good to live by. On the contrary, many of them are essential. I just believe they are concepts we naturally gravitate towards and don't need to pin the authority on a higher power in order for us to accept them.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 13, 2010 - 09:53am PT
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So after 4000 plus posts the god haters are plum worn out and have fled the field, leaving the faithful as strong as ever, proselytizing away.
I knew it would turn out this way.
DMT D... You know me better than that... I'm not much of a 'hater', as that's a pretty powerful and destructive emotion. I don't hate God, or any deity, any more than you hate unicorns. I would hope that you would take issue with people living their lives in accordance with the way they "think" a unicorn wants them to live, and even trying to get others to live in accordance with laws, imposed on all, derived from the unicorn.
And Dr F... goobers has nothing to offer but regirgitation of the book. He cannot think for himself, as even his most profound thinking is vacuous.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 13, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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any fifth cousin of douglas macarthur is a friend of mine.
um, that's true, catholics are not christians. mormons, however, are. if you go to the LDS website, in the Q & A, it has it right there: "Q: are mormons christians? A: yes, they are!" exciting, huh?
the most christian of all churches is the church of jesus christ christian. i think that means that jesus was a christian even before he invented christianity. i know that christ was a scientist even before science was invented--there are lots of churches of christ, scientist, out there. he probably would've gotten a PhD if they'd been invented. i would like to see a picture of jesus in a white laboratory smock.
now i hate to inject personal stuff in here, but i think it's time to focus on gobee a little. we've done a little private emailing and even talked about having lunch sometime, since we both live in the beautiful san fernando valley. i'm not going to tell you what gobee told me about himself, but there are certain irregularities, and i think he owes a little self-disclosure to this thread. c'mon now, gobe, man up. gobee isn't a dummy, but it seems harder than heck to get him out of this quotation loop.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 13, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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To those who think Dr. F's comments to Go-B are mean or uncalled for: Remember a couple of things: (1) Go-B puts himself out there. (2) Go-B votes. He's not a child, he's mature enough by law to vote.
Those who vote are open to criticism. Those who put themselves out there (e.g., on an internet forum by their own choosing) are open to criticism. They open themselves up to it. -Just like the ballerina in today's news: She put herself "out there" as a ballerina so if she was chubby she should be called for it - because ballerina's are "expected" to model certain standards in performance, appearance.
It's not a perfect heaven, just the world we live in - nature red in tooth and claw under the accoutrements.
.....
EDIT
"certain irregularities" ???
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 13, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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Yeah, Gobbee.
Man up.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 13, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
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I'm throwing the gantlet down, make my day!
Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?), is the topic of this post,
Psalm 40:5, You have multiplied, O Lord my God, your wondrous deeds and your thoughts toward us; none can compare with you! I will proclaim and tell of them, yet they are more than can be told.
OK, let's see what you have to share, from anyone or anywhere that's good for the soul!
I know where I get my daily bread, and Who feeds me, and it nourishes my soul!
I can take what you want to throw my way, but give me something good that keeps you going and not just say nothing...
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 13, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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Ok-
I get to live each day knowing that I'm completely responsible for my destiny- my joys, my pains, my successes, my failures.
I don't have to live in fear that some unseen being is going to send me to hell for being compassionate & loving to people who are living their lives in ways that some consider an abomination, even though those people are consenting adults who aren't infringing on any one else's human or civil rights.
I don't have to spend countless hours rereading the same book each day.
I know that when I die, that's it. I live each day with that knowledge, so I try to focus on making each moment count.
And so much more I don't have time for now.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 13, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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dr. F, i'm flattered--that was a long time ago.
gobee, i just don't think you're living by the rigorous rules you propound. admittedly, you're a happy fella, and you thank god for all that, and i don't think anyone begrudges that to you. but you just dump stuff out of the bible here and that's downright irritating. people are trying to have a discussion here. discussion is putting stuff in your own words.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 13, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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This is why people believe in GOD . . .
Bruce Cockburn -- Lord of the Starfields
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFkM_R3CZvI
If music in praise of GOD like this doesn't touch your soul . . .
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nature
climber
Tuscon Again! India! India! Hawaii! LA?!?!
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Dec 13, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
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nature red in tooth
dood! I ain't got no teeff... did you miss that thread? it was stunning, absolutely stunning!
wait!
I do got a tooff. but it ain't red. still white.
sorta
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 14, 2010 - 08:16am PT
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Like ripe fruit, for the pickins...
Proverbs 3:5, Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
Jesus wept, for you and me!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2010 - 09:36am PT
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Dec 14, 2010 - 09:48am PT
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Go go Go-b, post some thought of your own. Here's mine. I put it on the other "god" thread, but given this discussion, it goes here too. A poem I wrote after Denali. The original had the scatological eschatology left in, but it seems the automatic censor on ST put in "*#": at any rate...
The West Rib of Denali
“What was it like?”
It was all light, white, and hell.
Picks chatter and bite.
We pull
they groan
We groan
under seventy-five pound packs
the straps
groan
our chests expand out and out
our legs
pump
slowly
one (breathe)
then (breathe)
the other (breathe).
No respite for a good vomit.
Oh, Holy God
is this the cost of heaven?
By faith alone my ass.
Every day load ‘em up
Every day move ‘em out
Rawhide!
Mules into thin air.
Adroit mules
on foot-and-a-half width snow ridges
seventy-degree slopes on each side that
fall away and away.
Is that a solid step?
Freeze-dried turkey tetrazini
our reward
will be in heaven
or the summit
whichever comes first.
curse and praise
praise and curse
praisecursepraisecursepraise
All rise while we sing hymn number 439.
Crevasse!
Boy that f*#ker goes a long way down.
Joe! Crevasse!
Keep the rope tight!
Holy! Holy! Holy! Lord God Almighty!
I pray the Lord this snowbridge keep.
Shit!
easy. easy.
F*#kinggoddammitYes!
(You may all now be seated.)
Mugs Stump died so that I may cross this bridge.
His body and blood
still on the South Buttress of Denali
(No, no, no, not Mount McKinley.
That fat f*#k could never climb this mountain.)
Denali. The High One.
There is no need for Mugs to resurrect.
Gather your breath; gather your breath.
Okay, Joe. Go now. I’ll keep it tight.
This is what it is like.
Drudgery and panic.
Heat and cold.
Light and more light
Inside your body
lifting it
because it is so damned tired of lifting itself.
Go again.
Before it all bleeds out.
There, on Denali,
blood pumps and rushes
and sometimes stains
snow and ice and rock.
Better than no constricting vessels
and the curse of not being haunted.
Having only the outline of a face
behind smoked glass in an SUV christened
Explorer or Expedition or
even (why didn’t God forbid?) Denali.
and the mantra:
Risk nothing. Repeat. Risk Nothing.
The only honest SUV is the Suburban.
Stillborn blood.
Still angry born blood with no place to go:
God I hate my job.
God I hate my wife.
God I hate
God.
Nail me to the Cassin Ridge
with rusted pitons.
I am looking for Johnny Waterman
The one hundred forty-five day solo traverse
Mount Hunter Johnny Waterman
lost in a crevasse on the Ruth Glacier.
And Guy Waterman,
the father who begat this son,
Who, like any good father,
would not send his son to death,
but would freely follow him there.
Kyrie eleison.
Hammer my petitions to the Moonflower Buttress
or else they float detached or
for less than a moment
clutch
life to life
to Elmore James’ “The Sky is Crying”
in the car on the way to work.
In South Bend,
there are no places.
Only locations.
Barnes and Noble
features Kenny G.
eucuch jazz
and kills
(softly)
the soprano saxophone.
I cannot listen to it
any more
than I can Beethoven’s fifth piano concerto
after Roger said it sounded like
“I want to be an Army Ranger.”
It can no longer be an instrument of anything.
In South Bend,
we cannot speak,
we cannot sing,
we cannot love and die.
We are all connected
to nothing.
On Denali in June,
there is no division between night and day,
no fifty hats for fifty tasks.
I do one thing.
I am one person.
I am risen.
Todd "Tung Gwok" Whitmore
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Dec 14, 2010 - 09:54am PT
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F sez "I'm an atheist, and am doing quite well all on my own"
I say "Oh really"?
Doug
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 14, 2010 - 10:50am PT
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As I wrote elsewhere this morning...
What God was thinking, just before he created everything...
OK... I'm going to create an entire universe, MUCH larger than anyone can ever even see, in which a I will create a planet just for a being I will make in my own image... I will make them so they can love and worship me, and if they don't, I will make them spend eternity suffering.
But, since I am such a just and caring God, and they couldn't live by my laws for the first few thousand years, as a second chance, I will have them kill me so that they can still prove to me their love by just 'believing' all of this... As long as they 'believe', I will let everything else slide.
Yea... That's what I'm gonna do!
But it will be such hard work, that even I can't do it all in an instant... Heck, it's gonna take me six friggin days to pull all of this off, then come back thousands of years later to have them kill me.
And, so it is...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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"What God was thinking, just before he created everything..."
No, that's what you are thinking and the rest of you mental speculators.
What's even worst, at times you try and put your words into his mouth and pass it on as facts coming from him.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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We have had discussions as to where the universe was before the Big Bang. There had to have been something before. Right?
Below is a fascinating article indicating the outline of the answer to this was found by Chandrasekhar while on his way to his first job in 1930! That was eighty years ago.
We are incredibly behind the times.
http://ptonline.aip.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_63/iss_12/44_1.shtml?bypassSSO=1
He reasoned that relativistic velocities might be obtained during collapse of a star following consumption of its primary fuel. Based upon his calculation he found there was no equilibrium solution for that collapse when the star's mass exceeds our sun's mass by some 50%. The "Chandrasekhar Limit."
Later work by Oppenheimer indicated time actually stops during supermassive collapses, and so was born the idea of the Black Hole. Everything we know from common sense and our daily experience was turned on its head.
Read some of this in "Physics Today."
One is prompted to wonder if humans do not always seem to be living in a stone age. Is this an inevitable part of being human?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 14, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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No, that's what you are thinking and the rest of you mental speculators.
What's even worst, at times you try and put your words into his mouth and pass it on as facts coming from him. Werner, you need to either:
a) replace batteries in your sarcasm/ridicule meter
b) remove stick from butt.
You seem to have oput WAY more into what I wrote, as I'm not passing off as 'fact' that those were his actual thoughts in that reply... But it does align with the beliefs of Xians, and the bulk of the beliefs of other Abrahamic religions, sans the Jesus as God.
Jumping to such extremes and absolutes like that makes it apparent for all to see that your X Chromosome is stronger than your Y, but that may be due to your age. There are suppliments you can take for that you know. (Get the sarcasm/ridicule there?)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 14, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
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Folly begins with "I know..." No, you don't. Period.
What a pinhead.
Take some science and engineering courses, you might discover a science and engineering education is worth something, worth incorporating into one's beliefs, and worth defending.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 14, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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Truly, in this subject, you remind me of the tourist wandering on paths and rocks in Yosemite littering and crapping all over the place. Having no standards and no inclination to live up to any.
You defend what you love.
Clearly you love the Abrahamic narrative. Go live in Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran for a year, you'll get even a greater dose of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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Well Im not infallible and missed the sarcasm in your post rrrADAM the same way others have misunderstood my sarcasms.
But as we see HFCS is now trying to paint a broad brush stroke as to what a tourist in Yosemite is.
Projectionist .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 14, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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Folly begins with "I know..."
Modernity knows the sun doesn't revolve around the earth. Modernity knows God Jehovah didn't send kings to rule over men. Modernity knows the lamb doesn't lie down with the lion because of Original Sin (that can ONLY be forgiven through belief in God Jesus). That's enough for now.
You're an obfuscator. Chances are, if you valued knowing how the world works and valued knowing how life works, acquired a hardwon science and general life education as a result, you'd sing a different tune, wouldn't be so eager to obfuscate.
.....
EDIT Certainly I didn't broadstroke all tourists, I said the tourist engaging in said behavior.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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Actually real science begins with understanding the constitutional position of the soul.
This is the root.
Without knowledge of the soul all so called science will be incomplete in it's conclusion .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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No, so sorry, you have not proved that.
You are just mouthing words .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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If science proved there is no soul to reincarnate in another body due to karma after the the termination of the present body the courts would never ever need to issue consecutive life in prison sentences/terms.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 14, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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From another thread, Port:
Supertopo is not a place for people with thin skin, and I kind of like it that way. I've been hammered here before and I consider it a learning experience.
And another from Rectorsquid:
The only maturity here is not visible because it is the people who don't fight, don't respond to bullies, and don't post crap, that are the mature ones. The rest of us are just cry-babies fighting about God, republicans, and about who is the bigger baby.
And the frosting on the cake, from Tom C:
never argue with a fool... people won't be able to tell the difference
.....
The trouble with advice is you often don't know whether it's good or bad till you try it.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 14, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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To those who think Dr. F's comments to Go-B are mean or uncalled for: Remember a couple of things: (1) Go-B puts himself out there. (2) Go-B votes. He's not a child, he's mature enough by law to vote.
Those who vote are open to criticism. Those who put themselves out there (e.g., on an internet forum by their own choosing) are open to criticism. They open themselves up to it.
A rather light-footed rationlization for bullying, Fructose...
Much of the high minded "criticism" Go-B receives, here, is nothing more than odious offense...hateful to him and useless to the rest...
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
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In defense of Gobee:
Gobee, like many others, has an unshakable belief in a higher power that he
is certain oversees life here on earth. This higher power then steps in
and answers some human prayers and ignores others, just as fervent.
The reason for this higher power choosing to answer some prayers and ignore
others is because, well,....., something about we were given free will.
Fine.
So, the reason people "believe in a god" is because they want to.
Makes them feel certain, valued, and gives a reason to believe in life after death. Very comforting!
NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. At least in America people are not persecuted
for their religious, or non religious, beliefs.
Let's at least toast and celebrate our freedom to think what we want.
End of stupid rant.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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You will return in your next life to finish your prison sentence if you do not finished it in this life time.
I guarantee it .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 06:12pm PT
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You are in prison right now unknowingly ......
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
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The warden hasn't released you yet otherwise you would have never been born .....
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MH2
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
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"MH2 - Deep down I don't consider the posters to this thread anything at all. Its just two labels, in and of themselves they are meaningless.
My opinion of the posters in this thread, and by tangent, my opinion of the posters themselves, is really quite irrelevant to the original topic.
You know, the same folks show up for the same threads, over and over. What'
s up with that???
Seekers?
Argumentative?
Bored?
DMT"
Wow, that's pretty deep down!
You seem to undercut your own use of the labels 'god haters' and 'the faithful'.
Pretty much every word is meaningless in and of itself. It's connections and context that matter. How we create "meaning" is a mystery to me but I am pretty sure we rely heavily on other people than just our selves to do it and I find interest in a lot of posts to this thread.
Including your own of course, you old sh*tdisturber.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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All has been proven to be true.
Only Dr F has no "eye" .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 14, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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I confess. I might be having a conversion here. Just watched a second episode of Sarah Palin's Alaska. God and Country. Big family. Five children. Eight children. (The Gosselin's visited. You know, Kate Plus Eight, something like that.) Huntin and Fishin. Living off the land, God's resources. God bless. You have to admit - it is a pretty appealing narrative. Combined with the strategy- If you can't beat em, join em - it's all pretty compelling. Life's so short, why swim against the tide? We'll see...
EDIT No, sorry, I just got caught up in the moment, the storyline. Back to my senses.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
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don't you think we would all be believers
No
There will always be a class of atheists in the material world, the rebellious souls due to their poor fund of knowledge of the absolute truth.
Just like in the prison house most of the criminals there deny they are criminals and they were imprisoned by an unjust law or they even deny they committed a crime to begin with ....
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jstan
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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I keep coming back here because this is the thread to which people bring ideas.
Werner's prisoner may always claim he is innocent because that has become his "absolute truth." He "believes" that and so remains sane.
A realist, on the other hand, would say "I am here for whatever reason. What can I do here?"
The Birdman of Alcatraz would possibly be a realist.
Edit:
When each of us goes to work in the morning, freedom comes because of what we intend to accomplish.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 14, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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Nice wordsmith poem, Tung Gwok!
Thanks Jennie, for watching out!
Dr. F. pass me a tissue!
Thanks Norton!
It's funny how in courts they made you put your hand on a bible and swear to tell the truth, to add weight to your conscience if you have one!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 14, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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"I am here for whatever reason. What can I do here?"
Perfect.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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Outstanding metaphor!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
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"It's funny how in courts they made you put your hand on a bible and swear to tell the truth, to add weight to your conscience if you have one!"
Gobee there is an assumed correlation between the bible and conscience. Lots of things like this are assumed in the world. Our assumptions are literally killing us.
As for courts:
Once when trying to learn about the process of divorce I attended a hearing. The lady, who was trying to regain possession of the house, swore her husband had threatened her by chopping up all the furniture with an axe.
The judge's obvious response would have been to hold the woman in court till an officer was available. And then to send them both to the house to see either that furniture or recent receipts for the furniture that was present. In the event this evidence was not found he should have had the woman charged with perjury.
In fact the judge did a double face palm and asked the two lawyers to "go out and get some kind of agreement."
By our behavior we are causing brutal cynicism to become the norm.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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Just see ....
How I have these guys spinning in their seats .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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I'm dead serious ....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
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Batso's words?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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compare people who believe in an invisible man in the sky to inmates at a mental institution
Perfect!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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I hung out with Batso for 2 winters.
Did you .... ?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:09pm PT
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Guess
Since you're so good at it .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
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You believe you're educated.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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Yes, speak for yourself ....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
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Then why are you speaking for others .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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Guess
Since you're expert .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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Why would you or I want a religion to begin with?
Oh I get it, you want to fly and imitate a bird.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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Yes much better
Now you're doing what you know best and are expert at.
Guessing .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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You're getting desperate now ....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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Then why are you being an idiot?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 12:17am PT
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There's nothing to win or lose here.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 02:45am PT
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We got a higher thread count.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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Yes you have some numbers .
Generally the gross materialists have the need to quantify in order to grasp hold although they know there are things that they can not quantify and thus they become frustrated .....
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 15, 2010 - 03:02am PT
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interesting seeing how philosophies of materialism evolve as agreements holding together a physical universe dissolve in thought
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 03:46am PT
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I did feel as though something was dissolving as I read this thread.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Dec 15, 2010 - 03:49am PT
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LOL
;-)
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MH2
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 04:01am PT
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"Sarcasm is a difficult thing to put across in this medium"
Yah, like, 'cause most posts are serious, right? Who would expect sarcasm?
I myself am blameless. Always straight-up and considerate. I would never compare Go-bee to a child who believes in Santa. That would be disrespectful to the child.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 15, 2010 - 04:05am PT
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What if he's right?
I guess what I mean is if you meet the Buddha on the road do you give him
five bucks? I only gave him three the other night and now I feel bad,
especially as I was coming out of a performance of the Messiah.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 04:09am PT
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"What if he's right?"
What if who is right about what?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 15, 2010 - 04:11am PT
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Exactly, that's why I try not to knock anyone's belief.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 04:15am PT
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Sure, but are you serious?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 15, 2010 - 08:23am PT
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Ironically enough, you will not understand this paper Werner:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10626367
I've posted this before... Perhaps in this very thread, as it certainly does apply.
Curious, Werner... Do you have tourette's?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 15, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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Who is this Malemute, I think I like him.
Expressing himself in terms of AND and OR gates. Even posted to my electrical thread way back when to help counter all the b.s. it attracted.
Climbers with more than a dollop of brain power, imagine that.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
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What little I have read regarding Buddha tells me he was not interested in anything like what we call a religion. He talked about what is good sense in the relationships between people.
If I met him I would shake his hand and listen to what he had to say.
Instead of fearing such a meeting, as we are taught to do in what we call a religion, I would look forward to it.
Such a meeting would be an unparalleled chance to learn.
The transmogrification of what Buddha was trying to do that has occurred over the past millennia raises a question someone here may be able to answer.
Did Abraham suffer the same fate? On the face of it the old testament seems not to be a credible document.
I would also be interested in the time frame in which Buddha's counsel has been changed. Is this a new phenomenon among us?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 15, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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Carl Sagan:
"Those who dismiss the gods tend to be forgotten. We are not anxious to preserve the memory of such skeptics, much less their ideas. Heroes who try to explain the world in terms of matter and energy may have arisen many times in many cultures, only to be obliterated by the priests and philosophers in charge of conventional wisdom."
Demon Haunted World, p310
As Lucretius summarized:
"Nature free at once and rid of her haughty lords is seen to do all things spontaneously of herself without the meddling of the gods."
Sagan: "Except for the first week of introductory philosophy courses, though, the names and notions of the early Ionians (scientists like Lucretius) are almost never mentioned in our society."
We embrace what we love. It's clear from this thread that a few have no passion for science or the Scientific Story, no love affair with science education.
God Hypercrates help us.
EDIT
Or, China.
China help us.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 15, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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what i find amazing and disturbing is how so many atheists denounce christians in the crudest terms and mock their beliefs...yet, will line up to kiss the dalai lama's hand...why no ridicule over his claim to be the 14th reincarnation of a boddhisatva? or his belief that it's wrong to kill insects because they might contain the souls of your ancestors?
why the attacks against christians and the simultaneous defense of muslims?
claiming christians are bigots is no different than claiming muslims are terrorists...and anyone who is proud of mocking jesus should have the balls to criticize mohammed or shut up
now, on to my main point
i watched a nova special on fractals last night and heard an interesting comment:
"...natural selection has hit upon a design..."
if ever there were a statement that begs dissecting, this is it
are we to assume that the fractal geomoetry that is the basis of all known life systems was a one-time accident? that a single mutation created the system? what are the odds of that?
or are we to believe that the system grew out of a series of mutations that eventually became the fractal system? what are the odds of that?
are not fractals powerful evidence of "design" in the system?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 15, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
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are not fractals powerful evidence of "design" in the system?
No more so than is a Fibonacci Spiral:
See, the thing is, 'Evolution by the process of natural selection' is NOT a random process... 'Natural selection', the mechanism directing evolution, acts as a gate, for the most part allowing practical changes (achieved through random mutations) through, and useless or detrimental ones generally don't get through. That is not random... It is a 'selection' process, that's why it's called 'natural selection'.
Because 'natural selection hit upon a [good] design' is no surprise, it's happened often... Two eyes for binocular vision to better gauge distance, flight for efficient transport, photosynthesis to harvest the sun's energy, etc... If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Natural selection tends to build upon what works well. That's how it works. Every living thing on the planet is not an individual random compilation of traits... They are related to others, and can be traced back along their family tree to predecessors that had many of those traits as well. Just like us.
jstan... Agreed on the message of Buddha, just as I doubt that Jesus would approve of much of Christianity today, and would be dismayed that his message has been so twisted, and that he has been deified.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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"why no ridicule over his claim to be the 14th reincarnation of a boddhisatva?"
Using the word ridicule and the use of ridicule itself are generally counterproductive, but I dealt with your complaint just before your post.
"why the attacks against christians and the simultaneous defense of muslims?"
I can recall not one incident of the sort you hypothesize. Have you an example? Please cite.
"anyone who is proud of mocking jesus should have the balls to criticize mohammed or shut up"
Mocking, like ridicule, is a generally counterproductive activity. For discussion to be productive and not simply an effort to persuade one's self that they alone have the indelible truth
animus has consciously to be reined in.
:"...natural selection has hit upon a design...""
If you look at Darwin's work you find your answer. In any number of areas numerous designs are dug up. Indeed DNA researchers today attempt to project the time scales for the appearance of new designs based upon known values for mutation rates.
This is a new science and though we have already come far along that road, we still can go further.
Edit:
In an earlier post as to what existed before the Big Bang I wondered why it is we humans, as individuals, always seem to be in a stone age. Chandrasekhar and Oppenheimer already by 1939 had shown that in a massive stellar collapse time for the internal observer is so slowed the collapse of a Black Hole's progenitor can take billions of years while to those of us sitting outside drinking a beer, the collapse can be over in a nanosecond. The questions we ask today were dealt with seventy years ago.
On further thought I think climbing experience is relevant. We are very interested in routes not yet done as we are very interested in discovering new things like natural selection. But once the route is done or the new knowledge is found what follows is a slow diffusion limited process. We may possess the knowledge needed for our survival but not use it. Simply because it does not interest us or it requires us to give up something comfortable.
In the final analysis it seems hard to believe such an unnecessary death is made adequately comfortable in this way.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 15, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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Bookworm, I thank the Cosmic Governance everyday I was blessed to live in Christendom over Islamadom. I don't think I would've survived being born in Islamadom. I certainly wouldn't have ended up a middle aged rockclimber.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 15, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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In an earlier post as to what existed before the Big Bang I wondered why it is we humans, as individuals, always seem to be in a stone age. Chandrasekhar and Oppenheimer already by 1939 had shown that in a massive stellar collapse time for the internal observer is so slowed the collapse of a Black Hole's progenitor can take billions of years while to those of us sitting outside drinking a beer, the collapse can be over in a nanosecond. The questions we ask today were dealt with seventy years ago.
You are applying this the wrong way, as a stellar collapse is an event we are not a part of, thus we can view it from a different frame of reference, thus we are not part of it, so there would be a time delta between frames of reference. The Big Bang included the entire universe, thus it is/was our frame of reference, so there would be no time delta, as you would be drinking bear in the same universe, analogous to within the stellar collapse, since we are 'internal observers' within the universe.
Get it now? As what you are trying to apply, doesn't apply.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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I am pointing out that our questions come from an inadequate understanding of how time behaves. If there were a massive singularity before it was disturbed by the Big Bang what we take as time here, would have been proceeding very slowly. Of course there was no here at that point but we think that way anyhow. That's all.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 15, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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jstan... We do understand how time behaves pretty well.. GR and SR describe the deltas due to gravity and velocity very well.
What we don't quite understand is the true 'nature' of time... Why it has an arrow that points only one way. Even entropy and the laws of thermodynamics do NOT specifically preclude (generally they do) the arrow from pointing the other way.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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"jstan = hmmmmmm let me see"
I'll try and prevent Werner from figuring that out.
The world and especially the US are in real mess that seems be coming to a climax at a faster rate with each passing year. I don't see any exit that does not include people discussing real issues sincerely and squarely facing things we would rather not face. I am watching an experiment.
Is it possible for a group of really talented people who love to fight
to make that transition?
Enough excellent discussions have taken place on ST to give me
a little hope.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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Dr F,
I understand where you are coming from.
However, I do honestly believe that religions in general were created by man
in order to provide a basic sense of structure and answers.
As such, humans do seem to have an innate need for order and hierarchy in their lives.
Humans from our early beginning as developing consciousness also have a
almost biological strong need to want to believe in something other than themselves.
As a species, we seem to really need to believe in an afterlife.
This provides humans with a real sense of peace of mind, a sense that it is
not all over when we die, that we can go on.
My mom will be 95 on Friday. She is very frail and in a Catholic nursing
home. She goes to Mass every day, as she has all her life. I see the peace
that her faith in a god and an afterlife give her. It truly does give
meaning to her life and the really good feeling she has that she will be
with her family for eternity.
So Dr. F. Please do not generically lump all religions together and brand
them as "bad" or their believers "delusional".
That really is a personally insulting thing to say. And it is hurtful to
the billions of humans who do want to believe in an afterlife.
I, like you, am an atheist. But I also have respect for the longing that
people have for what and why they believe in.
Can you understand this and not be so attacking of people like my mom?
And people like Gobee. They all are just trying to get through this life
any way they can, like you and me. We are all human in this together.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 15, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
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you would be drinking bear
I ain't gonna drink no stinkin' BEAR!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
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I don't believe anything until I "see" it ....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 15, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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Oh for Christ's sake.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Dec 15, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
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'Natural selection', the mechanism directing evolution, acts as a gate, for the most part allowing practical changes (achieved through random mutations) through, and useless or detrimental ones generally don't get through. That is not random... It is a 'selection' process, that's why it's called 'natural selection'.
You've got it wrong. Natural selection does not exist because there is no <b>selection</b> in nature. It would best to talk only of mutation and "survival of the fittest." For example, the track that runners run on does not select who will win the race. It does affect the outcome of the race but it does not select, act, direct, or do anything consciously. There is no selection going on in "natural selection" and it is a stupid term.
If you discuss evolution, don't use any words that even hint at something controlling it. "Direct" is wrong. "Select" is wrong. "Act" is wrong.
Don't anthropomorphize evolution.
Dave
P.S. To be fair, everyone uses those terms mentioned above when discussing evolution. I'd just like to see it discussed in more scientific terms that are descriptive of the actual process. To use those anthropomorphic terms makes scientists look like hypocrites to the religious types who might be smart enough to notice. At a minimum, it conveys the wrong information to people who don't understand evolutionary theories very well.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 15, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
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What are you guys ultimately trying to do here?
Some of us here have a passion for how the world works and like to talk about it. What's more, we also like to criticize those institutions (religious or not) that mischaracterize how the world works, that give a false impression of how it works. And it's not just because we are critics with nothing better to do either; it's because we get the link - the relationship - between (a) our understanding of how the cosmos works and (b) our prosperity, pursuit of goals, successes, in the practice of living.
.....
"I don't see any exit that does not include people discussing real issues sincerely and squarely facing things we would rather not face. I am watching an experiment."
jstan, I feel the same way, like I'm watching an experiment.
.....
rAdam, that's some pretty good writing on the previous page - for someone who doesn't have a college degree let alone graduate. Right on.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 15, 2010 - 07:49pm PT
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Rectorsquid, I enjoy all your posts. But you really have a hangup in regard to the word, selection. IMO.
"Selection" derives from the latin meaning "apart + to choose or gather". The word doesn't imply there has to be any mental faculty or conscious agent behind it.
But then we've already had this discussion, I think.
.....
"If you discuss evolution, don't use any words that even hint at something controlling it. "Direct" is wrong. "Select" is wrong. "Act" is wrong. Don't anthropomorphize evolution."
This is just so off-base. For instance, in regard to style points. Read Dawkins and Dennett. They talk about this indepth. Also a couple of linguistic courses or books.
It's not anthropomorphizing. Use of words like "want" as in Nature "wants" the sodium and water to react... could be argued as anthropomorphizing. So if your interest is eliminating these anthropomorphic "carry over" words, well, good luck to you. It's innate to our language. A course on metaphors and how broad and deep they extend into our communications should disabuse you of any hope of eliminating these instances. IMO.
(a) The eddy "directed" the raft into rapids. (b) The surf "acted" upon the broken glass shards over the years, making them smooth and exciting to the touch. (c) These seed types are "selected" (or chosen or picked) for the journey at the expense of the heavier ones. Everybody gets these. -Which is the point of communications.
.....
"P.S. To be fair, everyone uses those terms mentioned above when discussing evolution. I'd just like to see it discussed in more scientific terms that are descriptive of the actual process. To use those anthropomorphic terms makes scientists look like hypocrites to the religious types who might be smart enough to notice. At a minimum, it conveys the wrong information to people who don't understand evolutionary theories very well."
Well, I do get this, too. Then again, there's also the problem of people (including scientists, science enthusiasts, science communicators, etc.) appearing overly-analytical (anal) about things. That doesn't "sell" either. (Is it okay to use the word sell? :))
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 15, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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"Don't anthropomorphize evolution."
What about nature? (Mother Nature)
The cold? (Jack Frost)
The Mississippi? (Old Man River)
What about death? (Grim Reaper)
last but not least...
What about the force, or forces, behind gift giving? (Santa Claus)
Jan might be able to tell you I'm pretty fond of personification (aka anthropomorphism). It has its place in the human enterprise.
When people get it, I think it contributes to the language, the communications, the zeitgeist.
Dave, I'm responding to you just because I'm spent on Go-B, that's all.
Peace.
.....
Yay, George Carlin.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 15, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
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Excellent post, Norton.
It shows the complexities of the subject and issues were dealing with here.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 16, 2010 - 09:40am PT
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i admit i haven't been following all along, but...
"I can recall not one incident of the sort you hypothesize."
i did not mean to refer specifically to the thread but to the general attitudes...a single abortion doctor is killed by a single gunmen espousing christianity and the entire religion is implicated...hundreds of homocide bombers repeatedly target and murder innocent civilians in the name of allah, but everybody wants to be the first to praise islam as "peaceful"
"In any number of areas numerous designs are dug up."
a "design" implies a DESIGNER
"But my Main Point, that can NOT BE DISPROVEN!!!
Is that if Booky, Bluey, JE, TGT Goobers, and the rest of the so called " Good Christians"
If they were born in Iran, Saudi, or anywhere else beside America
They would be what ever they grew up with
And if it was a Muslim Country, the same exact person, would be saying that they HATE Christians
No one can disprove this fact"
once again, f, you proclaim your ignorance...do you know that there are actually christians and jews born and living in iran? probably a few other religions, too...do you mean all muslims are extremists? do you understand that most iranian muslims are shiite and a good number "hate" sunnis more than they hate christians and jews?
ever heard of a guy named jesus? peter? paul of tarsus? matthew, mark, luke, and john? they lived in a jewish state ruled by the pagan romans...martin luther? he lived in a catholic state and grew up with a religion ruled by the pope...siddhartha gautama? he was born a hindu in a hindu state ruled by hindus...mohammed? he was born into a pagan society ruled by pagans...zoroaster? akhenaten?
ok, how many examples do you require before admitting that you're wrong? or would you rather explain how the human mind works for those of us whose minds don't work anything like yours?
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 16, 2010 - 09:57am PT
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dmt, your own story refutes your own argument
true, most people will adopt their parents religion, politics, eating habits, sense of humor, etc.; however, one's personal development rarely end with one's parents
for most religious people i know, their journeys were much more complex...and typically, the more religious they are, the more complex their journey...to assume religion is simply a matter of rote shows a shallow understanding of faith (including atheism)
and, would you not prefer your children to have a thorough understanding of religion before rejecting it? or will you just "foist" your beliefs on your children rather than allowing them to decide for themselves?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2010 - 10:17am PT
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 16, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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dmt doesn't offer stats, either
and what is an "exception"
we're ALL influenced by our parents; however, if dmt/f were right, we'd ALL be sun worshippers or worshippers of the mother goddess
dmt is the exception to his own rule unless he's including himself when he says we're all just blind/mindless followers of what our parents "foist" on us, in which case, why take him seriously if he admits his own ideas are mindless?
the existence of god is a "serious question" and i'll assume most people think seriously about it before deciding on an answer
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 16, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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Really, what's the difference between going along with Santa for a day or two and going along with God (Father in Heaven) for a year? Not much some might argue. -Esp for good times and esp for the sake of the children and young at heart.
Alright, I'm in.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 16, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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book... You are confusing 'as a general rule', with 'as a hardfast rule'. Actually, you are attempting to force his statements into meaning something he didn't say, as he was carfeul to use the correct qualifiers.
You even said yourself:
dmt, your own story refutes your own argument
true, most people will adopt their parents religion, politics, eating habits, sense of humor, etc.; however, one's personal development rarely end with one's parents
for most religious people i know, their journeys were much more complex...and typically, the more religious they are, the more complex their journey...to assume religion is simply a matter of rote shows a shallow understanding of faith (including atheism)
Note the 'qualifiers' you used in bold above. D used the very same qualifiers, yet you want to ignore his using the word 'most' and suggest he is making hardfast rules, which he is not. In doing so, you find 'exceptions' and say that it is invalid and refuted. There are exceptions to 'general rules'... That's why they are general.
Example:
Most people are right handed. This is a true statement, yet what you are doing is analogous to pointing out people who are left handed saying that that refutes the statement. It does not. Left handed people are the exception, not the rule. The statement is correct.
Get it?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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Book:
Thanks much for your reply.
My original question:
["why the attacks against christians and the simultaneous defense of muslims?"
I can recall not one incident of the sort you hypothesize. Have you an example? Please cite.]
I was asking for an example of where we have seen anyone attack Christians for their religious zeal while at the same time defending Muslims. I am having difficulty reading your reply as an answer.
Your reply:
["i did not mean to refer specifically to the thread but to the general attitudes...a single abortion doctor is killed by a single gunmen espousing christianity and the entire religion is implicated."]
I see equal condemnations of Muslim and Christians for stoning and shootings. An example supporting you would be a person who condemns a shooter while supporting the stoning of a Muslim rape victim.
Now as to the flow of blame onto a whole religion because of the shooting of a medical doctor, consider this. When such an event occurs is it not entirely reasonable and prudent that the religious body as a whole begin to ask whether their advocacy and practices need to be refined so they are in no way causing such tragedies?
I have not seen this. By its lack of prudent action the religious body is seen as supporting the act.
Would you not agree?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 16, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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Yes. To both rrrAdam and jstan posts.
But fellas, I pose a way harder crux. C'mon, take a stab at it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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Fructose, if the crux you refer to is Santa for two weeks being similar to believing in a god or religion for one year, then a response would be that Santa is not really believed but a simple social occasion for most everyone and god or religion is an a serious commitment to a innate human desire to believe that individual continues to exist after death.
Big difference, no?
Love,
Norton
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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I just went to the Santa analog to this thread and saw the post:
"Santa is our only hope of defeating Bin laden."
Thereby was exposed a perfect( I think) example of a whole body being tarred by the actions of a few.
Mohammed Mosaddeq's democratically established administration was overthrown forcibly in Iran through the activities of British Petroleum and the CIA. Subsequently Iranian natural resources were exploited for the benefit of persons who were not citizens of Iran.
Let me ask a question. Would you be upset if intrigues sponsored by China had overthrown one of our presidents along with our Congress and had resulted in strip mining throughout our west with the proceeds going to Chinese businessmen?
And in the absence of protests by the Chinese people generally would you not hold those people generally accountable?
Governments proceeding under cover of security and citizenry who do not insist upon fairness do great and lasting damage.
This damage surfaces as hate. Hate that can last 1000 years.
I know I am setting a high bar for Christian organizations opposing abortion. But let me ask.
How would Jesus have counseled us?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Dec 16, 2010 - 02:24pm PT
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Santa is an educational tool. That one big white dude in the sky is all a made-up story designed to get children to behave better is a good thing to learn, imo.
DMT I see what you did there, D... Very slick!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 16, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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Very slick.
So comment, rrrAdam. Does it have a place. In our society. To a point.
It IS a more complex issue, conundrum, consideration. Than arguing with the Go-Bs.
Later...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 16, 2010 - 04:10pm PT
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Norton, I was just interested in exploring the subject from the perspective of the narrative: given the diversity of our species, demographics, personalities, sometimes the pursuit of life strategies for living (by way of a comforting narrative, e.g., and its customs, rituals) outweighs the pursuit of truth. As your post alluding to your mother (and mine) indicated, it adds extra dimensions (to consider, to contemplate) to the overall themes of this thread.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 16, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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Good point Fructose,
My only real point was to ask Dr. F to back off a little on his stridency
as regards essentially branding all religious people as "delusional".
They are not.
And their very real human need to believe in an afterlife should be respected
with the same intensity as atheists, like me, choose not to believe.
Such stridency only alienates and angers.
And pisses people off.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 16, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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There is a Santa analog to this thread?!
That is difficult to believe.
Thanks to DMT for reminding me that sarcasm is better left to Mark Twain. And also for exposing the word/idea problem. Part of our inability to agree on certain things comes from our having different ideas about what certain words mean. As a less controversial example, "most" means anything above 50 per cent. Then we have "sarcasm". Is it good humor or bad humor? How does it differ from kidding, irony, parody, etc., etc.? I get the feeling that 2 people seeing the same event and then trying to describe it can use the same word with very different ideas about how that word will be received by other people. Winston Churchill, if I recall my Reader's Digest correctly, liked to construct progressions of the sort:
"I am thin."
"You are skinny."
"He is gaunt."
All describing the same condition but with differing spin.
So, because jstan is pretty smart, I'd like to point out that he once posted something like what follows to a thread somewhat like this one (if I remember correctly).
from the pages of medical transcription:
The patient has no previous history of suicides.
The patient has been depressed since she began seeing me in 1993.
She is numb from her toes down.
Rectal examination revealed a normal size thyroid.
Examination of genitalia reveals that he is circus sized.
Skin: somewhat pale but present.
The pelvic exam will be done later on the floor.
When she fainted her eyes rolled around the room.
Between you and me we ought to be able to get this lady pregnant.
Patient has two teenage children but no other abnormalities.
The patient was to have a bowel resection. However, he took a job as a stock broker instead.
At least if there is a God you have to admit he has a sense of humor. But what kind of humor?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
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"So, because jstan is pretty smart, I'd like to point out that he once posted something like what follows to a thread somewhat like this one (if I remember correctly)."
I would like to contest one of these two claims made by MH2.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 16, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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same qualifiers...different arguments
dmt argues that religion is unthinking; i argue it is not
dmt, by his argument, claims his belief is mindless; i do not make any such claim about myself and previously would not have made any such assumption about dmt
last time i recall somebody killing an abortion doctor in the name of christ, i also recall immediate, loud, and repeated condemnation from many denominations...as well as prayers for the doctor's soul
every time i recall somebody killing innocent people in the name of allah, i also recall hearing nothing from any muslim leaders...but i do recall hearing members of the media cautioning us not to assume the killing was religiously motivated (that is, when and if they every get around to mentioning the killers religion) and fretting about an anti-muslim backlash that has never occured in america
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MH2
climber
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Dec 16, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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Okay.
Jstan is extremely smart.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 16, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
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Book:
I am glad to hear there was condemnation within the community. I did not see any evidence of this so that is all I had to go on.
But what has actually been done by the community? Did they change something they were doing? Perhaps changing their suggestions as to the sermons on abortion that were being issued?
Some actual act? Some changed policy?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 17, 2010 - 08:13am PT
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Come along...
...for the JOY ride!
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Dec 17, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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"Did they change something they were doing? Perhaps changing their suggestions as to the sermons on abortion that were being issued?"
huh? do you have proof of sermons that demand/encourage/or even suggest a christian duty to murder abortion doctors?
just go to youtube and search 'jihad'
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jstan
climber
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Dec 17, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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"huh? do you have proof of sermons that demand/encourage/or even suggest a christian duty to murder abortion doctors? "
Book:
You have jumped to an extreme position that no one has advocated.
Religion along with all the rest of us attempt to promote things that are good and to advise against things that are not good. What I am saying is that sermons advising against abortion also need to advise the faithful that those not present in the room have rights also. And that rights need to be respected.
Just as you feel you have rights so must you respect the rights possessed by those with whom you may disagree.
Because a person's rights were terribly violated supposedly in a cause promoted by an organization, it is reasonable to expect that organization to review its policies and positions to make sure the organization is in no way at fault. Doing this is a concrete action.
Would you not agree?
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MH2
climber
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Dec 17, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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"at least in Ft. Worth, TX"
The whole world sought audience with [Fort Worth] to hear the wisdom God had put in [its] heart."
from the Book of Wisdom
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 17, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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re: anthropomorphizing
Food for thought:
These bits of iron are "attracted to" the magnet.
(a) Is this anthropomorphizing? (b) Is it improper to use the verb "attracted" (say, for instance, in lieu of "pulled") to describe the action or process?
Just a small hors d'œuvre to leave you with before the dinner hour.
cf: (a) want (b) select (c) choose
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 18, 2010 - 08:19am PT
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...all on ST, my friends and buds!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 18, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x536302
Does God Exist? A Debate (Part 1 of 2)
Stossel Debate between an Atheist, an Agnostic, and a Believer
Everyone will find someone to agree with here . . .
Part 1: (7:46 min.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz4R0GHfM-Y
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5wdSHONzNM
The well known Catholic Priest has good points, he is a Theistic Evolutionist, agrees with the Big Bang, but he could go so much further.
There is scientific evidence that supports The Good Book. If someone wants physical evidence that points to an Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient GOD, the evidence is vastly available.
The Scientific World is at a loss to explain it: Biblical Archeology supports The Good Book. Prophecy fulfillment supports The Good Book. Bible Code supports that The Good Book is authored by GOD. The Star of Bethlehem phenomenon and the fact that we now know what occurred, and you can use an Astronomy observation computer program like "Starry Night" to validate it. The Shroud of Turin and the amazing work they have been able to do with forensic science. The science of Comet/Asteroid Impact Theory proves the validity of The Good Book. The Good Book precisely demonstrates the phenomenon of Impact Theory and many events that have occurred in the past, present, and yet to come in the future are fully revealed in The Good Book. Modern man has only come to the full recognition of Impact Theory and Science within the last 60 years or less. Yet The Good Book has very accurately given historical examples and very accurately describes a serious and massive impact to occur in Earth's future, and this was all written over 2000 years ago. Read The Book of Revelations.
GOD and his word are way ahead of man and our tool of science on many levels. Both are in agreement, it is just that GOD has already told us the way it is, and now we are just beginning to understand these truths through the very slow and methodical tool of modern science. One validates the other. Read PhD Gerald Schroeder: The Science of GOD.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 18, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Rector,
it occurred to me, Richard Feynman was also fond of anthropomorphizing. Or personifying. Like Carl Sagan, he also often used it to improve the communications.
Examples: (1) X "wants" to Z - just like a ball "wants" to roll downhill. (2) A carbon atom and an oxygen atom "like" each other, they "want" each other - except there is an energy barrier at normal temperatures.
I don't think there's no getting around it. Even if there is, many wouldn't want to. Success is a function of the communicator.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 19, 2010 - 10:55am PT
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We all receive the same incomprehensible Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, and Father God!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 19, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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it occurred to me, Richard Feynman was also fond of anthropomorphizing. Or personifying. Like Carl Sagan, he also often used it to improve the communications.
It's a form of artistic license at best, but it does muddy up the point that these are things that happen without conscious volition; deeply troubling to those who find comfort in an a priori, ego-based cosmology.
Whatever gets you through the night.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 19, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Good point. There is art in it. For better or worse. Like climbing.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 20, 2010 - 08:07am PT
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Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Dec 20, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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re: proof
Drinks for thought: (1) proof to the whiskey standard, (2) proof to the wine or champagne standard, (3) proof to the beer standard.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 20, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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MH2
climber
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Dec 20, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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Gunkie,
Thanks for the link. A surprisingly long, coherent, and emphatic statement from Ricky Gervais.
I like it, but
"75 percent of Americans are God- ‐fearing Christians; 75 percent of prisoners are God- ‐fearing Christians. 10 percent of Americans are atheists; 0.2 percent of prisoners are atheists"
Something odd, there. Americans who are neither God-fearing Christians nor atheists are disproportionately common in prisons. Why?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 20, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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A surprisingly long, coherent, and emphatic statement from Ricky Gervais.
The guy is full of sh'it and has no clue ....
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MH2
climber
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Dec 21, 2010 - 04:11am PT
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"Muslims...duh"
"The guy is full of sh'it."
Always fun to hear from the READY! FIRE! AIM! brigade.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Dec 21, 2010 - 04:23am PT
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God, or a God, the biggest one, or whatever, would be the one who could accept the most responsibility.
Responsible for everything, everywhere. The one who is in control and willing to fess-up to things, even if they aren't working out.
You can hand that all off to some big guy in the sky and tell yourself, "I'm nobody."
Or you can own up and put your shoulder to the wheel. Just like young Jesus.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Dec 21, 2010 - 05:22am PT
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Estimates of Atheists in America seldom agree.
American Atheist .. 9 % .. 30 million
World Almanac .. 0.5% .. 1.6 million (North America)
Aris Study .. 0.4% .. 902,000 (Graduate Center of the City University of New York interviewing over 50,00 adults in 2001)
Gallup Poll 2008 .. 6%
Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life .. 1.6% (2007 study interviewing 35,000 adults)
2006, Harris Interactive poll,.. 4%
1995, Encyclopedia Britanna .. 0.3%
JCnot4me.com .. 35%
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 21, 2010 - 06:31am PT
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Matthew 20:16, "So the last will be first, and the first last.”...
...we all get there at the same time!
-John MacArthur
Jesus makes us right with the father, are you ready for that day?...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Dec 21, 2010 - 07:43am PT
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go b proselytizing
elsewhere please.
i do not wish to
speak for jdf,
but your
cut&paste angle
is tiresome
not to mention
disrespectful
to the
question
posed.
the dogmatic
pigeon hole
you've stuck
your mind in
is obvious,
if that is
what your
getting
at.
off now to
make jam
out of
the fruits
of my labor.
love and respect.
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Dec 21, 2010 - 08:57am PT
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perhaps not
dingus.
tho some of
the wisdom
and knowledge
imparted here
is what garnered
my respect.
my folly for
taking the
bait.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 22, 2010 - 08:12am PT
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Luke 24:46, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 23, 2010 - 07:49am PT
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Psalms 22:16-18, For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet —
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
Psalms 34:20, He keeps all his bones;
not one of them is broken.
Psalms 69:21, They gave me poison for food,
and for my thirst they gave me sour wine to drink.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dec 24, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
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Gobee, stop being such a door knob.
If YOU have something to say, then say it.
But you are not making any points or winning anyone over by copy and bible pastes.
In fact, Gobee, you are cheapening your own cause.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 26, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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Thanks illusiondweller,
We have a God that takes away our shame, guilt, and fear through Jesus!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 28, 2010 - 11:39pm PT
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That's okay Wescrist, we don't expect anything less, "...for they know not what they do." - Luke 23:34. Your response rings of the scripture in the book of Luke, when the two malefactors hung on the right and left sides of Christ:
" 39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."
There will be many "surprises" in heaven based on verses 42 - 43, yet this shows the mercy that God has for the lost. You can have this too Wescrist!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 28, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
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Yeah, and verily I will smite the unbelievers, and heathens, and trolls on SuperTopo, unto the 9th if not the 99th generation. And then I'm going to smack them upside the head with a 2 x 4.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 29, 2010 - 12:23am PT
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"1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear (hence, science will not be able to prove existence).
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
God could fix everything so it was a "perfect world" if He wanted to, and He will, but not yet. First, He's giving you/me, a sinner, an opportunity to receive His free gift, without having to work for it nor having to prove Himself to you (though He'll do that too if you let Him!):
"6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." - Hebrews 11:6
"8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 29, 2010 - 12:26am PT
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Prayed for you (literally, just now in front of my laptop) Mighty Hiker.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 29, 2010 - 12:29am PT
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Troll? "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)" Yep, I was sure that was the subject.
Have a safe and happy New Year everyone!
Glory to God
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jstan
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 12:40am PT
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"You can have this too Wescrist! "
ID:
You state this based upon your reading of some texts written by you know not whom but who certainly never spoke directly to either god or Jesus.
Yet you have made the above promise to Wes with no certain knowledge of what will actually be decided.
Do you not feel some ethical discomfort? Do you feel no personal responsibility?
If I were to assure you that I have tested a hold you are about to use and that it is assuredly sound, but the hold came off without resistance and resulted in your becoming a quadriplegic, would you hold me blameless?
Would you hold me blameless?
If you would act upon my ascertion and yet hold me blameless can you explain how it is you believed me and did not believe me all at the same time?
This next post has such a lyrical feel to it. After reading it I have decided what I have to buy next.
What a relief.
I have been worrying about that all day.
EDIT:
The spam post referred to has been deleted. Very strange indeed! Its author must have returned to it. Very strange.
My point was a person can use any text as a scripture if they, somehow, invest it with value. Whether real or imagined is of no consequence.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:02am PT
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Eastern religious beliefs are puzzling.
EDIT
"The spam post referred to has been deleted. Very strange indeed! Its author must have returned to it. Very strange."
Which makes my own post puzzling.
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EddieMedina
Trad climber
Charlotte,NC
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Dec 29, 2010 - 10:43am PT
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I think the question is flawed. Over the course of the Enlightenment and the introduction of Newtonian physics and rationalism, the word belief has come to mean something completely new and different. Whereas it once meant 'to prize, to value, to hold dear', 'loyalty to a person or idea', it has now come to mean an intellectual acceptance of a metaphysical 'reality'. In The Case for God, Karen Armstrong argues that it is this rationalized interpretation of religion that has resulted in the rise of both fundamentalism and atheism.
On a more Darwinian level, people believe because this has somehow imparted to them a mechanism for survival that is absent in their non-believing brethren. As evidence of this reality you simply have to look at global demographics. 99% of the world's population are believers. If non-belief were as good a tool for survival as belief, the atheists would make up 99% of the population.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 12:15pm PT
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Please cite your source for the 99%.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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HFCS -- "A main reason "99% of the world's population are believers" is because (1) science illiteracy rules, (2) the inertia of ignorance rules, (3) the inertia of bad habits rules"
No that's you! 99% of what you post here is just plain dumbshit stupidity.
You can't speak for the 99% of the world and put words into their mouths.
You're a total idiot on this one.
Get an eduction kid ....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
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You don't even know nor have a slightest clue what the perfect truth is and that reflects perfectly by your ignorant posts here.
Get an education kid .....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Now you've just proved you really do need an education .....
And money can't buy the education you need ....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Looks like your education in life just keeps failing you ....
Being able to manipulate the material energy does not take much brains.
There are far far greater and superior sources of intelligence than what you can even begin to proclaim.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 29, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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If you start to love God NOW, you'll have less regrets later that you didn't start sooner!
Jesus gives us a fresh start, and that's from God's Son! That's the truth!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:24pm PT
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"If you start to love God NOW, you'll have less regrets later that you didn't start sooner!
Jesus gives us a fresh start, and that's from God's Son! That's the truth!"
GB:
Over the internet you are telling billions of people you have never met, from cultures with which you have had no contact, that they will feel what you have felt. This is baseless on the face of it.
A question. Since you feel you have to make a promise of some personal reward to get an audience, are you not talking down to people? You feel they do not have the ability or the courage to do what is needed purely and simply because it is needed or right?
This says something about the special esteem in which you hold yourself.
Does it not?
Now a tougher question.
Is it your opinion that Jesus held himself in a regard this high?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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Go-Bee:
You demonstrate you have no answers.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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without getting into the metaphysical details, i do beleive there is a god. not an anthropormorpic god, but some kind of power -- that which is creation.
i mean, the universe did not spontaneously "decide" to create itself, right? there is something out there. go and find it.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 29, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
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Either all the bible say's is a crock, or Jesus is the answer!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 29, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
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i love this song. larry norman, "the outlaw", youtube it. it's brilliant. even if you don't buy the whole christian thing, it's just a beautifully rendered song.
THE OUTLAW
Some say he was an outlaw, that he roamed across the land,
With a band of unschooled ruffians and few old fishermen,
No one knew just where he came from, or exactly what he'd done,
But they said it must be something bad that kept him on the run.
Some say he was a poet, that he'd stand upon the hill
That his voice could calm an angry crowd and make the waves stand still,
That he spoke in many parables that few could understand,
But the people sat for hours just to listen to this man.
Some say a politician who spoke of being free,
He was followed by the masses on the shores of Galilee,
He spoke out against corruption and he bowed to no decree,
And they feared his strength and power so they nailed him to a tree.
Some say he was a sorcerer, a man of mystery,
He could walk upon the water, he could make a blind man see,
That he conjured wine at weddings and did tricks with fish and bread,
That he talked of being born again and raised people from the dead.
Some say he was the Son of God, a man above all men,
That he came to be a servant and to set us free from sin,
And that's who I believe he is cause that's what I believe,
And I think we should get ready cause it's time for us to leave.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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I learned to respect Go-B in the Creationist thread. But unlike DMT I think it is the believers who have given up on discourse in this thread.
I respect religious faith. In people I know who have sincere faith I feel able to place trust which comes less easily for non-religious folk. That's a utilitarian stance but I think it has something to do with why religious belief persists. I am sure that the 99 per cent figure came out of a hat, but people who believe together share a bond that helps them to work together, too, and that is very important. Once a group gets too big, however, defectors in the group can destroy the mutual trust without serious consequences to themselves. Without serious consequences unless the God they profess to believe in is real, that is.
And another problem is that believers who don't share the same belief can cause all kinds of grief to believers and non-believers alike.
I'd rope up with Go-B. It doesn't seem like he'd be distracted with thoughts of what to say, here.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 29, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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Everyone, "believer" or not has the potential to do good and to do right by others IMO. If this is the case we have a very significant consequence.
Belief is not the highest resource. People are the highest resource.
As for respect. The questions I have asked GB have to do with respect. By saying what he does and by assuring us of things he cannot possibly know GB shows an underlying lack of respect for others.
I have immense respect for all those I have known, who have deep religious belief, and who have not possessed this lack of respect. They have been many. They are made from the salt of the earth.
There are many who try to put on this great cloak.
But they reveal themselves for what they are.
I would that he would answer.
Edit:
As I suspected.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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jstan:
"As I suspected."
You have been generous and patient with him.
go-B:
"I am grateful God didn't give up on me!"
Go-B, what do you think about what people are asking you?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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MH2:
Over the decades so many people have treated me generously, I have no choice.
When you dig down and imagine what the culture that gave rise to the Old Testament must have been like, one has no trouble accepting there must have been more than a few people who tried very hard to do better and to change it. There almost certainly never was a christ as portrayed by the brochures and PR releases we read today. But there had to have been, not just one. There had to have been many good people. What we see is what the myth makers and politicians constructed.
Whenever I want to see someone stoned to death, I think "No. Wait. We have been there and done that."
Even today, that lesson has not been learned as it must be.
2000 years.
In just my lifetime we have seen the entire Universe come into focus.
Between people? Nothing in 2000 years.
There has to be a reason.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 30, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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MH2
climber
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Dec 30, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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jstan:
"Even today, that lesson has not been learned as it must be."
It's good to see a shoulder at the wheel, though.
go-B:
"That's how the bible lays it out, and I know that even real bad guy's can be good to their own, and others seem to do good all the time apart from God?
But apart from God we can do nothing! I wish that if we did more good than bad we would all get to Heaven, Jesus is the sure way sent by God, and that's good enough for me!"
I'd rather guess that go-B is a construct than accept that the above is good enough for him.
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MH2
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:45am PT
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A spiritual paint-by-numbers randomly generated landscape
Product of a golem
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 05:44am PT
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Why? Because God's word is Truth and anything contrary to "the Truth" IS A LIE, ANYTHING Jstan, ANYTHING! If what you say in response to God's word is contrary to IT then your words are just that Jstan, as harsh as that sounds. And not only is it the infallible Truth but I am constantly being taught knowledge that I cannot find anywhere else nor at any other time in my life without it. Let me give you just another example of how God's Word opens doors that just aren't opened in my own power:
"A picture is a "likeness or resemblance of anything." There are many pictures in my home that are very valuable to me. They are photographs of family members or others whom I love dearly. Some of them have been taken during the holidays or other important times of the year. They have been carefully matted and framed to bring just the right attention to the subject. Located in prominent positions in my home as well as my office, you will find several special family photographs. As I see them throughout my day, they bring to my memory those whom I hold so dear.
I also carry photographs in my wallet, as does my husband. He is always prepared to "show off" his family to those who ask about them (and sometimes even to those who do not ask!) Recently, I was meditating on this subject of pictures and I wondered, "If God had a wallet, what pictures would He carry inside of it?"
After studying this thought, I now realize that God loves pictures! I believe this because God gives us so many "pictures" in the Bible. There were no digital cameras, photography studios, or even Polaroids during the time that the Bible was written, so God gave us "pictures" of the things He held dearly in a different format. For example, baptism is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord. Romans 6:4-5, "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." The Lord's Supper is a picture of His crucifixion. I Corinthians 11:24, "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." I believe these two pictures are precious to God and undoubtedly, He would carry them in His wallet because they represent very significant events to God.
There is another picture I believe would be found in God's wallet...it is the picture of the relationship between Christ and the church. It is called marriage.
Ephesians 5:22-31, "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives are to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loved his wife loved himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourished and cherished it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."
For ten full verses, God gives us this picture. However, He knows in our finite minds this picture will be difficult for us to fully see or understand. Therefore He calls it a mystery...Ephesians 5:32-33, "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as he; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."
Dissected and Defined: Ephesians 5:32-33, "This is a great mystery (this is a something beyond human comprehension that only God can reveal) but I speak concerning Christ and the church (but I am talking about the relationship between Christ and His bride, the church). Nevertheless (Though it is a mystery, [as we cannot see the entire picture, for God has not fully revealed this picture to us]) let every one of you in particular (let each of you specifically) so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband (obey these two rules that others may stand in awe of the picture they display!)."
God said, "Hey look, this is something you are not fully going to understand, it is beyond human comprehension. You cannot fully understand it as your relationship with Christ will not be revealed until you reach heaven. But even though you don't understand it, I expect each of you to display this precious picture in a prominent way that others may stand in awe."
In contrast, I recall an episode in my public high school library. Sitting at my table were two students looking through yearbooks, putting mustaches and horns on photos of people to make fun of them, while scratching out the faces of those they did not like. This is not new; people have been defiling photographs (or pictures) for centuries. If someone came into my office, my living room, or into my wallet, and defiled the pictures of those who are precious to me, I would be upset. Yet, it seems that many of us are guilty of this very thing. We have allowed Satan to deceive us into defiling God's precious pictures. Sprinkling for baptism; fermented wine for the Lord's Supper; divorce, separation, alternate lifestyles, bickering, nagging, abuse in marriages.
Many have defiled God's precious pictures. They have defaced them or thrown them aside. However, we, as Christians, need to stand in awe of this picture, treat it with the reverence that God portrays, and stop defiling the precious pictures He carries in His wallet."
You see Jstan, we're not continuing these responses for ourselves but to glorify God, to make Him look good. Second, this is for you and others, of saving even just one lost soul, "I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance." - Luke 15:7:
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all the heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:38-40
And, in doing so, "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5:11,
What a God!
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 10:14am PT
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"fermented wine for the Lord's Supper" (like that's a bad thing!)
OK, now I KNOW you're out to lunch - when you start re-interpreting the bible to fit your own views (anti-alcohol) of things (but I guess every religion does that, huh?)
Wine (by definition) is fermented - otherwise it's just grape juice. That's the only way these ancient folks could keep fruit juices for the long term.
Didn't Jesus turn water into wine at a wedding party, or some such thing? Now THAT'S a miracle I can sink my teeth (palate) into!
Growing up, I always envied the catholics who got the real thing at communion, when all we got were those little cups of welches. Anyway, Jesus and the disciples couldn't have had concord (North American variety) grape juice, would have had to have been some cultivar of vinifera (Eurasian grape) - so I guess you shouldn't really be using Welches for communion.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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not to worry, walla, it took years before run-of-the-mill catholics got to take a dainty sip of the divine alcohol. before that, it was just tasteless crackers, pure bleached wheat starch. it left you with the impression that there really wasn't much flavor to god. i think that proves out in many ways. meanwhile, many a celibate priest has come to enjoy the comforts of drinking up the leftover altar wine.
i came away from christianity with the impression that it's a great cultural sickness, incapable of engaging, embracing and directing human nature with any sort of wisdom, never capable of practicing, on the macro scale, the love that it preaches and instead devolving into excesses of evil which other cultures seldom exhibit. it's given us centuries of rancor and political and spiritual fascism and become, to the modern world, an ill-fitting jacket we are currently in the process of outgrowing.
here we have gobee and illusion dweller crusading for it. both admittedly had to reform some pretty rugged living habits and found support and solace for that in their respective church programs. nothing against these guys, but they have to get out of people's faces with it and argue, if they can, on a rational level instead of blabbering out scriptural quotations à la tourette. ya's guys gotta understand, those things are only meaningful to your fellow believers. me, i just skip over your blah-blah to the places where you're using words of your own.
while we're at it here, i have to ask gobee point-blank: aren't you married to a divorcee? and to illusion dweller, who spends a lot of time praying for me, bless his heart: what's the use of prayer? isn't god all-knowing and all-loving? it would seem that any special requests would be presumptive of that. rather than pray, just sit there. god knows the situation better than you ever will and, you can rest assured, is always doing the right thing.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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What does go-bee's wife have anything to do with this????
You're nuts Tony ....
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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back in the old days, gobee, women were expected to suffer more. the option was basically go into the convent if you got a real bad husband. the vows were taken literally. the vows are still the same, but the rules are bent. why is that? could it be that the rules and vows were unreasonable to begin with?
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jstan
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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ID:
All I need do is tell you that what I now say is the word of god. You rely entirely on others to tell you what the word of god is.
Now you have described in detail on the internet how essential (whatever those words are) to your continued existence. I accepted that, without comment.
In return you need to accept my statement that the quality of my life is degraded when deeply flawed people keep telling me they know MY truth.
May I suggest you stop imagining, now that christ is dead, that you are a suitable person to stand in his place and spread his word?
I don't tell you that your interest in pornography hurts your loved ones and that you are therefore a BAD person.
Please accord me the same courtesy. If you will.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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Tony/kpinwalla2, gobee just defended God's Word with an incredibly rich Truth that it stops people in their tracks as it did you, based on your response. You and many others have a gift but your applying it for the wrong purpose. We've been lied to folks, whether you choose to believe it or not. If Jesus puts His reputation on the line by claiming to be "the way, the truth, and the life", and the ONLY book in history to make these claims, then anything contrary to that statement is a lie. That's pretty simple logic. As far as twisting things to fit my purpose...no, no, you've got it backwards. You've read this before but ill keep posting it as long as you all keep making the same mistakes:
The problem I am facing with folks is that willful unbelief will not listen to reason. Why should they, if they can create a pseudo-reality that is tailor-made to satisfy their itching ears? I know that this sounds strange, but that is the world in which we live. The drug culture is a booming industry because it specializes in transporting people into a fantasy world that offers a temporary escape from aching reality of emptiness and the horrifying suspicion that judgment is real (John 16:8, Romans 2:14-16). It's like a person who chooses to stay in the temporary comfort of their stateroom on the Titanic, rather than the available seat on the lifeboat. Furthermore, that person becomes greatly offended when you plead with them to escape to safety. But there is another dimension here with which we must battle: unbelief is
supernatural. No one should be able to logically withstand all the evidence of the empty tomb of our risen Savior, the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, the unmatched miracles of our Lord, His historical impact that punctuated our B.C./A.D. world by His unequaled life, and the transformed lives that bear witness to His saving power. There is no longer room for
reasonable doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. But people do. To reject such compelling evidence is not natural. It is the supernaturally imposed Satanic influence that blinds unbelievers to the reality of Christ, prompting them to reject the salvation that God offers freely at heaven's ultimate expense. That is the reality beneath the surface. 2 Corinthians 4:4 applies.
And so we preach, persuading as many as who will yet enter into our Savior's lifeboat...
and yet there is room. This is our supreme calling. This is our Savior's command.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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You see jstan, He's a "risen Savior," he's not dead. He defeated death and because of that you and I, as sinners, now have a "way" ("I am the way...") to overcome our sinful state. I'm sharing the Truth. Your truth is not true for Jesus is Truth and anything contrary to that is a lie. There can't be two truths for one would be contrary to the other. I'm being transparent by sharing my testimony to help others realize that "hurting people, hurt other people." I now know that my addiction hurt myself and many others. Please tell me this again and again for it can only help. I'm not offended in the least. I share this openly for I hope to help others by doing so.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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I ask only that I be treated civilly.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
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i kinda think i've been lied to, ID, with the very program you seem to find so much truth in. me and a lot of people like me feel this way. i'm fairly live-and-let-live, believe-and-let-believe about it, but the world is getting smaller and we seem to interfere with each other more and more. usta be, you could hop on a boat to the new world and have a little colony to live life the way you want to believe it, after you've genocided the pesky pagan natives, of course.
i don't think that reliance on "reason" is going to cut it for you in the long run. faith has to come in when reason fails. i got tired of having a fruitless faith and discovered a new one--faith in life, faith in people, faith in what's good, faith in truth, with a small "t"--it doesn't have to be capitalized because it stands on its own.
nobody has to be "saved", ID, except maybe in out-of-control cases. the human race didn't "fall". the great error of christianity is its failure to recognize human worth without the imposition of an artifical theology. not to say there aren't human problems. but christianity seems to intensify them, rather than alleviate them.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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I'm surprised you haven't addressed this Tony:
" But there is another dimension here with which we must battle: unbelief is
supernatural. No one should be able to logically withstand all the evidence of the empty tomb of our risen Savior, the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies, the unmatched miracles of our Lord, His historical impact that punctuated our B.C./A.D. world by His unequaled life, and the transformed lives that bear witness to His saving power. There is no longer room for
reasonable doubt that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world. But people do. To reject such compelling evidence is not natural."
"Dimensions, logic, evidence, history, witnesses," it's all there.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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"unbelief" is a figment of your imagination, and that of whoever wrote that tract you're quoting. it's a hunky-dory world when you can get everyone to believe the same thing, but it seems to go to hell in a handbasket anyway. christianity proved that about itself in the long, stinking history of europe throughout its middle ages. everyone embraces jesus, but they kill each other anyway, and no society evolves without the basic evolutionary principles of competition and survival. christianity is unfortunately subject to this basic darwinism and it plays out within its own many-splendored sectarianism. bottom line, ID, is truth with that small "t". the world won't move forward until it begins to build some consensus, and i think we're as far away from that as we've ever been, although i think we're beginning to define the problem. as someone remarked back upthread a bit, religion 100 years hence will probably look a lot like buddhism.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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Bible Prophecy and Probability
The record of Bible prophecy and the corresponding historical fulfillment (figures are conservative).
By: Brother David Hall, San Diego, CA
PROPHECY/ PROBABILITY
1. His birth in Bethlehem from the tribe of Judah. - Michah 5:2/Matt 2:1
/1:2400
2. He would be preceded by a messenger. - Isaiah 40:3/Matt 3:1-2
/1:20
3. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt. - Zech 9:9/Luke 19:35
/1:50
4. He would be betrayed by a friend. - Psalm 41:9/Matt 26:47-48
/1:10
5. His hands and feet would be pierced. - Psalm 22:16/Luke 23:33
/1:100
6. He would be scourged by His enemies. - Isaiah 53:5/Matt 27:26
/1:10
7. His betrayal for 30 pieces of silver. - Zech 11:12/Matt 26:15
/1:50
8. He will be spit upon and beaten. - Isaiah 5:6/Matt 26:27
/1:10
9. His betrayal money would be thrown into the temple. Zech11:13/Mat 27:5-7
/1:200
10. He would be silent before His accusers. - Isaiah 53:7/Mat 27:12-14
/1:100
11. He would be crucified with thieves. - Isaiah 53:12/Mat 27:38
/1:100
12. People would gamble for His garments. - Psalm 22:18/John 19:23-24
/1:100
13. His side would be pierced. - Zech 12:10/John 19:34
/1:100
14. None of His bones would be broken. - Psalm 34:20/John 19:34
/1:20
15. His body would not decay. - Psalm 16:10/Acts 2:31
/1:10000
16. His burial in a rich an's tomb. Isaiah 53:9/Mat 27:57-60
/1:100
17. The darkness covering the earth at midday. - Amos 8:9/Mat 27:45
/1:1000
Total odds against the above prophesied events occuring by chance are:
4.8E+33
Man is good...but not that good!
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jstan
climber
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Dec 31, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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I think we are seeing people suffering from a psychological difficulty. A tendency to intemperance. A person subject to some dreadful behavior, something way at the end of the pendulum swing, then takes up some "belief" that says all truth can be found in one place and can be applied everywhere. A concept absurd on its face. This too is about as far as a pendulum can swing.
Mind you I have known many very good people who believe as they choose, associate with other good people and together try to help fellow creatures. Altogether esteemable lives, without at any time telling anyone else that they have found the "answer" that others must accept if they are not to suffer the fate of the "unsaved." For such is an attempt at coersion. Force. The sword.
We are dealing with a malady. A malady that has long been with us. Intemperance, the inability to properly weight life's priorities is found among murderers, molesters, and even capitalists. Should we be surprised it may also appear behind faces bearing beautific smiles?
The malady lives in the person, not in the mode of life chosen.
People, not beliefs, are the source of all good, and the source of all evil.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
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Okay, let's deal with the evidence Tony. Put what we believe to the side for now. Refute the evidence.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
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you have to consider, ID, that stuff written later merely picked up on stuff written beforehand. that's literary tradition, not prophecy. sorta like saying "a rose by any other name". shakespeare said it first. is it divine inspiration if someone says it again on supertopo? not really, just a reflection of a commonly held tradition.
i've talked previously on this thread about putting scripture in perspective. christianity threw out gobs of its own inconvenient scripture when it attempted to stamp out the gnostic gospels. this resulted in a religion which could be forced on the public in the style of the roman empire's domineering ways, an unkinder, ungentler religion, at war with itself and universally intolerant of anything else. sound familiar?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 31, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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"I think we are seeing people suffering from a psychological difficulty."
Perfect jstan! I have no problem with that statement for it is in direct agreement with God's Word, it is the truth. You see, from the beginning in the garden, Eve encountered "psychological difficulty". She was tempted and made a decision, a thought process, she had to use her "imagination." And from the beginning God reminds us what caused our demise...
"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." - Genesis 6:5
"for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;" - Genesis 8:21b
"Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." - Romans 1:21
...and what the treatment is for our condition:
"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" - 2 Corinthians 10:5
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2 Corinthians 4:4
"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." - Ephesians 1:17-23
And finally...
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
Thank God for you, jstan.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Dec 31, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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How to Deprogram an Ex-Cult Member
Being indoctrinated into a cult does not happen overnight, nor is it a simple psychological maneuver to completely take over someone's will and belief system. So it should be no surprise that deprogramming an ex-cult member is a difficult and painstaking process. You will need much patience and must realize it will be emotionally and psychologically wrenching for both you and the person you are attempting to retrain.
Difficulty: Challenging
Instructions
1
Prepare yourself for the ordeal you are about to go through. Find reliable information about the cult you are dealing with so you know what to expect. It is very helpful to find an ex-cult member who understands what the cult member is going through and can guide you through the minefield of extricating him or her from the cult.
2
Control your emotional responses when talking to the cult member, especially anger. Try to interact with them as often as possible, preferably face to face, but also in letters and phone calls. Let them know you love them and they have a place to go if they want to leave. Never be condescending or insulting when talking to them about their beliefs or the leader while they are still inside.
3
Find a deprogrammer to help you get the cult member out. Once this is accomplished, you must keep the person in a safe, but isolated, place and allow the deprogrammer to retrain the cult member in his beliefs. It is important for cult leaders to be discredited by pointing out the contradictions in their ideology versus their actions and to provide proof of these contradictions if possible.
4
Appeal to the emotions of the victim. They have been taught techniques to block outside influence. Make sure you do not use any catchwords or phrases which will trigger a relapse into cult thinking. Keep switching subjects to keep them off balance so they have to think. This is difficult and painful for them but with persistence they will begin to think on their own again.
5
Provide a stable environment for the ex-cult member to live in. Make sure he goes to a therapist regularly and goes out to develop interests of his own. Safeguard him against cult members who may try to draw him back into the cult, and if possible, find an ex-cult member to spend time with the victim, reassuring him that things will be okay.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Dec 31, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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Psalms 19:1, The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
2 Day to day pours out speech,
and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words,
whose voice is not heard.
4 Their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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Dec 31, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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Perspective, as always, is everything.
Think about that. THEN act accordingly. Kindly, even?
I'm trying. Living what you believe is your best example.
Cheers!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dr. F, et al,
"Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil agaist you, falsely, for my sake." - Matthew 5:11
Remember, "falsely" is anyting contrary to the Truth, or the Word of God, "I am the way, the truth, and the life..." I just wanted to make sure that you all do realize that you're blessing me and gobee and other believers and glorifying God or "making Him look good," with you're hurtful responses. If you insist, we'll take everything you throw at us and give glory back to God!
Are you guys getting this...?
"In whom the god of this world (the little "g" god called satan) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2 Corinthians 4:4
We're not posting these verses up in order to create hurt to you all but it's obvious that that is what you're intentions are. They are God's Word not ours! Do you see that you're responses are already forseen and anticipated? We've accepted the Word of God and now it not only promises and protects us but benefits us when those who "believe not" choose to persecute us for our beliefs. If I may speak for them, this answers the topic question, "Why do so many people believe in God..." Thank you Lord!
What a God!
Edit: Gobee, God is good!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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If you read Roman and Greek lit. you'll find more evidence for the existence of Apollo than there ever was for Yashua or Jesus.
Josephus who mentions Jesus also believed Emperor Vespasian was the savior!!
Every believing Christian should read Romans 11:32 five times and reflect on it as Augustine did.
It is Augustine's oxymoron "O felix culpa". Oh happy fault or my joy is my sin that I may be redeemed.
Ask yourself, how is it that the predicate of my Christian joy is my inherent sinfulness?
Why would God create a universe in which evil is the necessary foundation of goodness?
Solipsistic nonsense! Christian doctrine unravels around Romans 11:32.
That is: Why would a God condemn us {anyone} to eternal damnation only to be able to redeem us?
The argument here isn't one of reason against faith. Christian doctrine is so un-reasonable as to defeat the possibility of faith.
Faith cannot exist in the face of what is finally unreasonable.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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God saves as a function of his condemnation, since without condemnation one cannot be saved.
Such an idea is a spiral into nonsense.
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WBraun
climber
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paul roehl
Everything you write in this thread is pure bullsh'it mental speculations.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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WBraun
climber
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Yeah wow!!!
I know you're gettin a little bored in that other thread .....
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"I'm staying right here in the good old USA where I know I am under God... ready for whatever he wishes to drop on me."
Glory to God for another believer!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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"Illusiondweller" - how apt.
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jstan
climber
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"God saves as a function of his condemnation, since without condemnation one cannot be saved.
Such an idea is a spiral into nonsense."
Climbers have their sharp corners so this is a biased group. But when I imagine I as a six year old being told that because someone named Eve ate an apple, I would have to remove a horrible guilt through out my whole life.
In the HOPE someone would decide I was not to burn in Hell for eternity.
None of this having anything to do with me at all.
I mean.........
I mean.....really..........
I did not even hear the word f*#k until I was maybe 19?
If I had known it at the age of six I would have used it, right to someone's face.
Then and there.
I have not changed.
When I went home I would merely have asked my parent's do you want people to be held accountable for things over which they have no control?
They would have said, "No, of course not."
That would have been the end of the discussion.
So now we know what is happening here.
A cancer.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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jstan,
I only have to answer to God for my own sins!
But I'm glad that God will see Jesus's sacrifice, and not my sin's!
That is what Jesus offers all who believe in Him!
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MH2
climber
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go-B
"I only have to answer to God for my own sins!"
So.
No DUI
No homicide
Just let God sort it out?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I'm staying right here in the good old USA where I know I am under God... ready for whatever he wishes to drop on me.
Glory to God for another believer!
God is NOT more present in America than other countries! I would argue the opposite. People go to sleep in Confucian and Buddhist Okinawa with their doors unlocked; nobody does that in America. I have traveled alone all over the world as a young woman and never been mugged anywhere but America. I've also walked through the many people living and dying on the streets of Hindu and Muslim Calcutta with only one other person, and felt completely safe, but I wouldn't dare to do that in a poor neighborhood in the States.
And then there's the fact which anyone can check for themselves, that the majority of Christians no longer live in Europe or America but rather, the poor developing countries of the world. The missionaries who converted the ancestors of these people at least had the courage to travel.
Surely a large part of what has killed off Christianity among educated people in the West are the narrow minded ethnocentric Christian people who wrap themselves in the flag and the Bible, proclaiming the superiority of their way at the same time they know little of the rest of the world.
Jesus didn't discriminate against pagans or Samaritans, why should modern Christians?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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I have enough sin's in my life time I don't need to look to my forefathers to find some!
I wouldn't want to go before God without Jesus!
Because of what Jesus did for us all I try to live to please God by what I do, instead of looking at all the bad things to avoid!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jstan,
Show me one other "nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Like it or not lost souls, those of you that live in the U.S.A., you live in a nation "under God." What a priviledge, yet you live in it on your own, giving credit to none other than yourselves...pity. Don't get me wrong, I did the same for 45 years but now, it's not about me, it's about God, and you all. Thank God!
Edit: And Jstan, in all of the other "safe" nations in the world that contain the "nice" buddhist's, confuscians, muslims, mormons, etc., I pray for their salvation one day as well.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Four direct references to God on our Declaration of Independence...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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With regard to the Declaration: What were those Christian revolutionaries thinking?
Romans Chapter 13
13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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It's called, "God's System of Management." There is "freedom" in boundaries Paul. Such as an infant being put in a crib for it cannot protect itself from harm on it's own. The infant can move about the crib in any way it may. It has "freedom" with boundaries. As a child grows, the parents put the toddler in a "play pen" providing a bit more "freedom" but still with "boundaries" to keep it safe. Gates are put up in front of the staircase keeping the child from falling down the stairs, although still with "freedom." A fence may be put up around the front yard to keep the growing child from running into the street. The child is given more and more space, "freedom" as it gets older, although under boundaries. These principals are kept around us (atleast, here in the U.S.A.) till the day we die. They are to give us "freedom," under the safety of boundaries.
Being "subject" to "higher powers" "ordained of God."
Titus 3:1-8...
1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates...
(A public civil officer, invested with the executive government of some branch of it. In this sense, a king is the highest or first magistrate, as is the President of the United States. But the word is more particularly applied to subordinate officers, as governors, intendants, prefects, mayors, justices of the peace, and the like.),
...to be ready to every good work,
2To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
Why?
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Solution:
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Romans 3:1, Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”
5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Go-B, God opened those doors perfectly didn't He?
Glory to God!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Talk is cheap! It's how those words are lived out in reality that is important.
There are numerous countries in the world where people live in freedom, including the freedom to worship whomever they wish. While America was the first large modern country to have democracy,there have been Swiss Cantons practicing democracy since 1291, and there are many democratic countries now.
The Declaration of Independence is an American document, and relied on religious principles in part, but it didn't fall out of the sky. Rather, it originated in 800 years of Anglo Saxon tradition - Magna Carta and all that. It also was closely related to the French philosophes and the Enlightenment. Further back in time, the Greeks and Romans contributed many ideas which later became part of our democracy.
Like the Greeks and Romans however, our democracy was stained with the practice of slavery for many decades after all men were declared equal. And of course genocide was practiced against the Native population.
America has much to be proud of, but time has moved on. Talking about American moral superiority is not going to help us compete economically against the Chinese and looks like egotistical entitlement when measured against the modern democracies of western Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and India for that matter.
Religion is or should be a private matter. Leave politics out of it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Adopted by Congress, July 4th, 1776"
Better go back an reread the D.O.I. Wes.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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7) Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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EVERY word of the bible comes from god.
No way a bunch of sick twisted dumb ass sheep herders wrote it.
Thou shall not question what is in the bible.
It is all god's word.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
KILL THEM!!!!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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KILL WOMEN!!!
KILL ENTIRE TOWNS!!!
RAPE WOMEN!!!!
It is ALL in the bible.
ALL of the bible is the word of god!!!!!!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
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WBraun
climber
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There is intelligent design.
God gave you good intelligence.
Unfortunately some people became just plain stupid and lost all their original good intelligence ......
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Grow up already
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jstan
climber
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Even at the age of six I could have told my interlocutor to buzz off for trying to plant in me something infinitely corrupt that rails against justice and fair treatment among people as does the theme christians mouth as writ in the bible, because I knew my parents valued justice and fair treatment.
I knew they would agree with my stand.
I was lucky. So many others are not so lucky and have to put off expressing their revulsion until they are of age.
A cancer.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Paul,
Since I fall WAY short of defending the Word of God I do get wise counsel (Psalm 1:1). Here is the response to your "Romans" post. This was not taken from a website but from a friends email response to me which he took the time to respond:
Dear Brother,
Anytime you are engaging in validating the truth of God and His Word (apologetics), you must recognize that you may well be like a brilliant lawyer delivering a watertight case that leaves no room for reasonable doubt, but the jury is so corrupted and distracted that no amount of evidence will suffice to prompt them to render a fair and truthful verdict. That being said, we are nevertheless instructed to "sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" (1 Peter 3:15). Notice the emphasis in this verse. FIRST and FOREMOST, apologetics is about honoring God, not convincing the skeptic, though we should have an ordered defense that is persuasive and reasonable. Pray about your motives, brother, before you wade into the forum of this world's willful ignorance, which argues from the perspective of the natural mind. Cater to intellectual integrity, but never pander to intellectual arrogance.
Peter, in his second epistle, warns that the things written by "our beloved brother Paul" are in some cases "hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:15,16). So it should not be surprising that Paul's epistle to the Romans, which is such a superb example of clearheaded reasoning, may be rejected as foolishness by the natural mind (1 Corinthians 2:14). As for me, the more times a I read Romans 11:32 (why should we stop at only 5 times as your poison-pen pal suggests?), the more sense it makes to me, until I am led to exclaim with Paul "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" (Romans 11:33). Let's consider this verse that evokes the vitriol of your friend:
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32). Paul gives us a logical and historical account of Israel's past (Romans 9), Israel's present (Romans 10), and Israel's future (Romans 11), showing the marvelous tapestry of God's workmanship in the nation Israel, which He will again exalt as the head of the nations when He completes His work with them. Israel was chosen to be a spectacle to the nations around them, whether by their obedience and blessing or their rebellion and chastisement. In either case God has concluded that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). The Law condemns Jew and Gentile alike. If we could keep the Law to the satisfaction of God's holiness, then we would not need faith in God, since "the Law is not of faith: but the man that doeth them shall live in them" (Galatians 3:12). So what is so unreasonable about Romans 11:32 in the light of God's gift of righteousness which comes by faith? God puts us all in the circle of unbelief; then He says that everyone in that circle qualifies in to receive His salvation freely, Jew and Gentile alike. Everyone is equally able (and urged!) to step out of that qualifying circle of unbelief and come into the sphere of saving faith that responds to God's gracious offer of salvation, purchased at heaven's highest expense. Obviously, we're not talking about the circle of mere intellectual unbelief, but the unbelief that has not exercised the God-given prerogative to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 1:12,13). We can intellectually believe that the Lord is knocking on the door of our heart (Revelations 3:20), and still neglect to open it in spite of the enormous body of evidence (Hebrew 2:3,4).
How absurdly the natural mind concludes that "the Christian doctrine unravels around Romans 11:32" as your friend as asserted, obviously ignoring the careful case that Paul built in Romans chapters 1-3, laying the 7-fold foundation of the Gospel's credibility (refer to attached, Why Should You Believe the Bible?, addressing verses 1-4 & 18-20), and then laying out the threefold view of the sinful society (Romans 1:21-32), the self-righteous society (Romans 2:1-16), and finally the Semitic society (Romans 2:17-29), proving finally that
"both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin" (Romans 3:9).
So, brother, we can expect blind unbelief to rant, ignoring the obvious, casting aside the marvelous wisdom of God as foolishness. A fool can deny that there is no such thing as gravity after scaling Yosemite's El Capitán, imagining that he can simply float to the bottom. Neither the sincerity of his faith nor the force of his argument will diminish the effect of the law of gravity. Nor shall it ever change the Law of God that demands righteousness, which can only be obtained by saving faith in Christ, "even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ" (Romans 3:22). How foolishly the unbeliever replies against God! "For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?" (Romans 3:3).
Never.
(Bro. David Hall- quiettimepoems.blogspot.com)
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Attachment:
1. The Bible declares that Christ changes lives (2 Corinthians 5:17).
This truth is quite evident in the lives of Christians in every time and place. The apostle Paul, who was once an enemy of the cause of Christ, was transformed into a bold “servant of Jesus Christ.” –Romans 1:1
2. The Bible exhibits the promise and fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies with 100% accuracy: Christ’s place of birth, His betrayal, His suffering, His crucifixion, and His resurrection, to name just a few (Micah 5:2, Zech.11:12, Isaiah 53, Psalms 16 and 22). –Romans 1:2
3. The Bible declared that Christ must be a descendant of David, the ancient king and psalmist of Israel. The Lord Jesus met that criterion
(Mat. 1, Luke 3). –Romans 1:3
4. The Lord Jesus promised to rise on the third day after His death. He staked His whole reputation on that claim. His enemies posted guards at the tomb, hoping to prove that His claims were false. But three days later, He rose. The empty tomb could not be explained then, nor can it be today, except by this conclusion: Christ is risen indeed! –Romans 1:4
5. God has historically revealed His judgments from heaven. Whenever he warned of a national or personal chastisement, it came to pass to the letter. The flood in Noah’s day, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Egypt’s plagues, and the calamities upon Israel all testify to the wisdom of taking the warnings of God very seriously! - Romans 1:18
6. God has already placed within each of us a witness of Himself. Those who deny the witness of God still “hold the truth,” even though they suppress it. This inner witness is two-fold. We have all been given a “conscience...bearing witness” of God and of His moral absolutes of right and wrong (Romans 1:19, 2:15).
God also holds us accountable for His witness by the Holy Spirit, who con-tinues to “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judg- ment” (John 16:8). –Romans 1:19
7. Finally, the obvious design in creation that we observe all around us everyday testifies to the God of the Bible, that “it is He that hath made us, and not we ourselves” (Psalm 100:3). “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord” (Isaiah 1:18). “He that planted the ear, shall He not hear? He that formed the eye, shall He not see?” (Psalm 94:9). This is a logical appeal to the Law of Cause and Effect. The Bible is in perfect agreement with the laws of science, but it opposes the irrational idea that we are all a mere product of chance! -Romans 1:20
“But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them that diligently seek Him” (Hebrews 11:6).
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i love it when norton gets on a roll like that.
ID, you need to take yourself a little trip to europe. nations under god galore over there, been that way for centuries. more churches per hectare than we got 7-11s. in good old germany, churches are supported by taxes. you get to check on your tax form whether you want it to go to catholic or protestant.
europe loves the way the world is being run these days. they've effectively passed all the sh#t off on the u.s.a. which they carried on for centuries. they devote themselves to enjoying life and taking month-long vacations. what we gotta do is get smart and dump world leadership onto someone else.
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WBraun
climber
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illusiondweller
Instead of constantly just giving sermons and bible verses one should prove how God exists in practical examples using the scientific method that even the layman can understand.
Those that say it can't be done and there is no proof are the same fools & rascals that originally said the earth is flat and you'll fall off the edge.
Otherwise no one will take to it just based on faith and belief alone for they can always change.
It has to be bonafide and there must be absolute proof.
Even the American Indian long before the so called Christian preachers came had a very good understanding of God.
Saying that the United States is the only country under God is poor fund of knowledge.
The whole planet is under God including the atheists, agnostics, etc etc.
God is within every living entity along side with the individual soul.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Tony,
Freedom of religion is supported by the Basic Law adopted by the United nations. Show me a country who's laws were founded under God, the Creator, the Supreme Judge and Divine Providence.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sincerely praying for you all...see you out on the rocks.
Thank you Lord God
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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werner, making me laugh and cry. the american indian's understanding of god was enhanced a thousand percent by the widespread genocide committed in the name of spreading christian civilization. they learned a real lesson about god, the ones that survived, that is. i'm sure norton can dig up some bible quotes for that. there are plenty. it isn't about "love" unless you join the club. jesus said he came to bring a sword, and it was used liberally in these united states.
Show me a country who's laws were founded under God, the Creator, the Supreme Judge and Divine Providence.
right there, ID, you've pretty much defined every islamic theocracy from the caliphate onward. of course, they prefer the name "allah".
klimmer would make a great catholic, and i think you, ID, would make a terrific muslim. i've known at least three very smart guys, two of them with PhDs, western guys, who converted to islam early in their adult lives and remained there happily ever after. (one of them, admittedly, did it under the influence of a "gorgeous moroccan babe".)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Yeah, I like having Pate back in fine ass healthy form.
And Cintune? Home Run image post.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Under - In a state of pupilage or subjection; as a youth under a tutor; a ward under a guardian; colonies under the British government.
I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. Matt. 8
Declaration of Independence:
1. "powers of the earth...to which...nature's God entitle them."
2. "rights...endowed by the Creator"
3. "We, therefore...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world..."
4. "with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence"
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Wrong frame of reference. You can't have it both ways, obviously.
Deism in the philosophy of religion is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that a supreme being created the universe. Further the term often implies that this supreme being does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe. Deists typically reject supernatural events such as prophecy and miracles, tending to assert that God (or "The Supreme Architect") has a plan for the universe that is not to be altered by intervention in the affairs of human life. Deists believe in the existence of God without any reliance on revealed religion, religious authority or holy books.... Benjamin Franklin wrote in his autobiography, "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism
(boldface added to highlight the significant difference.)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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My puppy is UNDER me.
He needs constant supervision and direction from birth to death.
Are you a man or a puppy?
Damn, you are one weak ass primate.
Still struggling with your infant birth original sin?
GROW UP
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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You guys have been busy, I feel left out.
Nice to see more distinction being made between (a) "God" in a higher more abstract "Einsteinian" sense and (b) the God of Moses (aka Jehovah or Allah) who mated with a young human female (a virgin) to produce a baby god.
Nice to see it because this IS the 21st century, not the 11th..
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Here you go:
Heaven is for real. It's number 1 at amazon.com. Shame on all you skeptics!
http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/dp/0849946158/ref=pd_ts_b_?ie=UTF8&s=books
Heaven Is for Real is the true story of the four-year old son of a small town Nebraska pastor who during emergency surgery slips from consciousness and enters heaven. He survives and begins talking about being able to look down and see the doctor operating and his dad praying in the waiting room. The family didn't know what to believe but soon the evidence was clear.
Colton said he met his miscarried sister, whom no one had told him about, and his great grandfather who died 30 years before Colton was born, then shared impossible-to-know details about each. He describes the horse that only Jesus could ride, about how "reaaally big" God and his chair are, and how the Holy Spirit "shoots down power" from heaven to help us.
Told by the father, but often in Colton's own words, the disarmingly simple message is heaven is a real place, Jesus really loves children, and be ready, there is a coming last battle.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Told by the father, but often in Colton's own words
But not completely. Do you think the father might have any ulterior motive to tout such a tale? Nah...
Addendum:
Jesus really loves children
So much that he lets them be abducted and abused, born with all sorts of maladies, and die with horrible pain. Such love!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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So get this. Part of the first reviewer's review:
"As I mentioned before, I'm a skeptic at heart. A book like this one wouldn't likely catch my attention and certainly wouldn't win any praise from me. So many books like these are fanciful, unbiblical, and simply outright inconsistent with what I know to be true from the Bible. Colton Burpo's story was a refreshing and surprisingly accurate portrait of what awaits each of us whose destiny is Heaven. I read the book with a critical eye, looking for those little details that would prove this story to be at best inaccurate or at worst a fraud. I couldn't find them. His tale seemed honest. His descriptions fit the way a child would describe things, not one whose words had been fed him by an adult. Some of his revelations were simply amazing!"
Yeah, you go, girl!
.....
I recommend this book to Go-B and ID.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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I'm a skeptic at heart.... Some of his revelations were simply amazing!"
Sounds like a true skeptic to me! She knows what is true from the bible and she couldn't find any inconsistencies. Wow. That coming from an obviously awesome intellect is good enough for me! I especially like that it confirms her firsthand, undisputable, scientific, factual knowledge of the afterlife. And the icing on the cake is that it is written as a child would describe it, because no adult could possibly reproduce such prose.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Reincarnation = (The Judgement)either Heaven or Hell? But you will remember!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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what about coming back as a music savant?
I don't know, but we all have some gifts from God and some people were born that way?
Edit; Look at Bach, he had like eighteen children was a teacher and wrote a new piece of music each Sunday for years and years, all to the glory of God!
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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It's for me to know and you to find out! lol
Like the movie Shine, where that's all they can do?
It's a mystery, I think God is showing us something to blow us away!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"One Nation, Under God"
A Few Declarations of Founding Fathers and Early Statesmen on Jesus, Christianity, and the Bible
(This list is by no means exhaustive; many other Founders could be included, and even with those who appear below, additional quotes could have been used.) -David Barton 05/2008
John Adams
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; DIPLOMAT; ONE OF TWO SIGNERS OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECOND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.1
The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.2
Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company: I mean hell.3
The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.4
Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. . . . What a Eutopia – what a Paradise would this region be!5
I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.6
John Quincy Adams
SIXTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES; DIPLOMAT; SECRETARY OF STATE; U. S. SENATOR; U. S. REPRESENTATIVE; “OLD MAN ELOQUENT”; “HELL-HOUND OF ABOLITION”
My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.7
The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the Divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made “bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God” [Isaiah 52:10].8
In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.9
Samuel Adams
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; “FATHER OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
I . . . [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.10
The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe [Proverbs 18:10]. Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.11
I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.12
He also called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .
the peaceful and glorious reign of our Divine Redeemer may be known and enjoyed throughout the whole family of mankind.13
we may with one heart and voice humbly implore His gracious and free pardon through Jesus Christ, supplicating His Divine aid . . . [and] above all to cause the religion of Jesus Christ, in its true spirit, to spread far and wide till the whole earth shall be filled with His glory.14
with true contrition of heart to confess their sins to God and implore forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ our Savior.15
Josiah Bartlett
MILITARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
Called on the people of New Hampshire . . . to confess before God their aggravated transgressions and to implore His pardon and forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ . . . [t]hat the knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ may be made known to all nations, pure and undefiled religion universally prevail, and the earth be fill with the glory of the Lord.16
Gunning Bedford
MILITARY OFFICER; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; FEDERAL JUDGE
To the triune God – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost – be ascribed all honor and dominion, forevermore – Amen.17
Elias Boudinot
PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT
Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned… [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ’s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer.18
A letter to his daughter:
You have been instructed from your childhood in the knowledge of your lost state by nature – the absolute necessity of a change of heart and an entire renovation of soul to the image of Jesus Christ – of salvation through His meritorious righteousness only – and the indispensable necessity of personal holiness without which no man shall see the Lord [Hebrews 12:14]. You are well acquainted that the most perfect and consummate doctrinal knowledge is of no avail without it operates on and sincerely affects the heart, changes the practice, and totally influences the will – and that without the almighty power of the Spirit of God enlightening your mind, subduing your will, and continually drawing you to Himself, you can do nothing. . . . And may the God of your parents (for many generations past) seal instruction to your soul and lead you to Himself through the blood of His too greatly despised Son, Who notwithstanding, is still reclaiming the world to God through that blood, not imputing to them their sins. To Him be glory forever!19
For nearly half a century have I anxiously and critically studied that invaluable treasure [the Bible]; and I still scarcely ever take it up that I do not find something new – that I do not receive some valuable addition to my stock of knowledge or perceive some instructive fact never observed before. In short, were you to ask me to recommend the most valuable book in the world, I should fix on the Bible as the most instructive both to the wise and ignorant. Were you to ask me for one affording the most rational and pleasing entertainment to the inquiring mind, I should repeat, it is the Bible; and should you renew the inquiry for the best philosophy or the most interesting history, I should still urge you to look into your Bible. I would make it, in short, the Alpha and Omega of knowledge.20
Jacob Broom
LEGISLATOR; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION
A letter to his son, James, attending Princeton University:
I flatter myself you will be what I wish, but don’t be so much flatterer as to relax of your application – don’t forget to be a Christian. I have said much to you on this head, and I hope an indelible impression is made.21
Charles Carroll
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; U. S. SENATOR
On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits, not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts.22
Grateful to Almighty God for the blessings which, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, He had conferred on my beloved country in her emancipation and on myself in permitting me, under circumstances of mercy, to live to the age of 89 years, and to survive the fiftieth year of independence, adopted by Congress on the 4th of July 1776, which I originally subscribed on the 2d day of August of the same year and of which I am now the last surviving signer.23
I, Charles Carroll. . . . give and bequeath my soul to God who gave it, my body to the earth, hoping that through and by the merits, sufferings, and mediation of my only Savior and Jesus Christ, I may be admitted into the Kingdom prepared by God for those who love, fear and truly serve Him.24
Congress, 1854
The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.25
Congress, U. S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854
Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle... In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity... That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.26
John Dickinson
SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE; GENERAL IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION
Rendering thanks to my Creator for my existence and station among His works, for my birth in a country enlightened by the Gospel and enjoying freedom, and for all His other kindnesses, to Him I resign myself, humbly confiding in His goodness and in His mercy through Jesus Christ for the events of eternity.27
[Governments] caould not give the rights essential to happiness… We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.28
Gabriel Duvall
SOLDIER; JUDGE; SELECTED AS DELEGATE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; COMPTROLLER OF THE U. S. TREASURY; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE
I resign my soul into the hands of the Almighty Who gave it, in humble hopes of His mercy through our Savior Jesus Christ.29
Benjamin Franklin
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.30
The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer, like the cover of an old book, its contents torn out and stripped of its lettering and guilding, lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not be lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more in a new and more beautiful edition, corrected and amended by the Author.31 (FRANKLIN’S EULOGY THAT HE WROTE FOR HIMSELF)
Elbridge Gerry
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; MEMBER OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS, GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
He called on the State of Massachusetts to pray that . . .
with one heart and voice we may prostrate ourselves at the throne of heavenly grace and present to our Great Benefactor sincere and unfeigned thanks for His infinite goodness and mercy towards us from our birth to the present moment for having above all things illuminated us by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, presenting to our view the happy prospect of a blessed immortality.32
And for our unparalleled ingratitude to that Adorable Being Who has seated us in a land irradiated by the cheering beams of the Gospel of Jesus Christ . . . let us fall prostrate before offended Deity, confess sincerely and penitently our manifold sins and our unworthiness of the least of His Divine favors, fervently implore His pardon through the merits of our mediator.33
And deeply impressed with a scene of our unparalleled ingratitude, let us contemplate the blessings which have flowed from the unlimited grave and favor of offended Deity, that we are still permitted to enjoy the first of Heaven’s blessings: the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 34
Alexander Hamilton
REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; AUTHOR OF THE FEDERALIST PAPERS; SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY
Following his duel with Aaron Burr, in those final twenty four hours while life still remained in him, Hamilton called for two ministers, the Rev. J. M. Mason and the Rev. Benjamin Moore, to pray with him and administer Communion to him. Each of those two ministers reported what transpired. The Rev. Mason recounted:
[General Hamilton said] “I went to the field determined not to take his life.” He repeated his disavowal of all intention to hurt Mr. Burr; the anguish of his mind in recollecting what had passed; and his humble hope of forgiveness from his God. I recurred to the topic of the Divine compassion; the freedom of pardon in the Redeemer Jesus to perishing sinners. “That grace, my dear General, which brings salvation, is rich, rich” – “Yes,” interrupted he, “it is rich grace.” “And on that grace,” continued I, “a sinner has the highest encouragement to repose his confidence, because it is tendered to him upon the surest foundation; the Scrip¬ture testifying that we have redemption through the blood of Jesus, the forgiveness of sins according to the richness of His grace.” Here the General, letting go my hand, which he had held from the moment I sat down at his bed side, clasped his hands together, and, looking up towards Heaven, said, with emphasis, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.” 35
The Rev. Benjamin Moore reported:
mmediately after he was brought from [the field] . . . a message was sent informing me of the sad event, accompanied by a request from General Hamilton that I would come to him for the purpose of administering the Holy Communion. I went. . . . I proceeded to converse with him on the subject of his receiving the Communion; and told him that with respect to the qualifications of those who wished to become partakers of that holy ordinance, my inquires could not be made in language more expressive than that which was used by our [own] Church. – [I asked], “Do you sincerely repent of your sins past? Have you a lively faith in God’s mercy through Christ, with a thankful remembrance of the death of Christ? And are you disposed to live in love and charity with all men?” He lifted up his hands and said, “With the utmost sincerity of heart I can answer those questions in the affirmative – I have no ill will against Col. Burr. I met him with a fixed resolution to do him no harm – I forgive all that happened.” . . . The Communion was then administered, which he received with great devotion, and his heart afterwards appeared to be perfectly at rest. I saw him again this morning, when, with his last faltering words, he expressed a strong confidence in the mercy of God through the intercession of the Redeemer. I remained with him until 2 o’clock this afternoon, when death closed the awful scene – he expired without a struggle, and almost without a groan. By reflecting on this melancholy event, let the humble believer be encouraged ever to hold fast that precious faith which is the only source of true consolation in the last extremity of nature. [And l]et the infidel be persuaded to abandon his opposition to that Gospel which the strong, inquisitive, and comprehensive mind of a Hamilton embraced.36
One other consequence of Hamilton’s untimely death was that it permanently halted the formation of a religious society Hamilton had proposed. Hamilton suggested that it be named the Christian Constitutional Society, and listed two goals for its formation: first, the support of the Christian religion; and second, the support of the Constitution of the United States. This organization was to have numerous clubs throughout each state which would meet regularly and work to elect to office those who reflected the goals of the Christian Constitutional Society. 37
John Hancock
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS
Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement.38
He called on the entire state to pray “that universal happiness may be established in the world [and] that all may bow to the scepter of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the whole earth be filled with His glory.”39
He also called on the State of Massachusetts to pray . . .
that all nations may bow to the scepter of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and that the whole earth may be filled with his glory.40
that the spiritual kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be continually increasing until the whole earth shall be filled with His glory.41
to confess their sins and to implore forgiveness of God through the merits of the Savior of the World.42
to cause the benign religion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be known, understood, and practiced among all the inhabitants of the earth.43
to confess their sins before God and implore His forgiveness through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.44
that He would finally overrule all events to the advancement of the Redeemer’s kingdom and the establishment of universal peace and good will among men.45
that the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be established in peace and righteousness among all the nations of the earth.46
that with true contrition of heart we may confess our sins, resolve to forsake them, and implore the Divine forgiveness, through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, our Savior. . . . And finally to overrule all the commotions in the world to the spreading the true religion of our Lord Jesus Christ in its purity and power among all the people of the earth.47
John Hart
JUDGE; LEGISLATOR; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
[T]hanks be given unto Almighty God therefore, and knowing that it is appointed for all men once to die and after that the judgment [Hebrews 9:27] . . . principally, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of Almighty God who gave it and my body to the earth to be buried in a decent and Christian like manner . . . to receive the same again at the general resurrection by the mighty power of God.48
Patrick Henry
REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; “THE VOICE OF LIBERTY”; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA
Being a Christian… is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast.49
The Bible… is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.50
Righteousness alone can exalt America as a nation. Whoever thou art, remember this; and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others.51
The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone, that renders us invincible.52
This is all the inheritance I can give to my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.53
Samuel Huntington
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; JUDGE; GOVERNOR OF CONNECTICUT
It becomes a people publicly to acknowledge the over-ruling hand of Divine Providence and their dependence upon the Supreme Being as their Creator and Merciful Preserver . . . and with becoming humility and sincere repentance to supplicate the pardon that we may obtain forgiveness through the merits and mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.54
James Iredell
RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; ATTORNEY GENERAL OF NORTH CAROLINA; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT GEORGE WASHINGTON
For my part, I am free and ready enough to declare that I think the Christian religion is a Divine institution; and I pray to God that I may never forget the precepts of His religion or suffer the appearance of an inconsistency in my principles and practice.55
John Jay
PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; DIPLOMAT; AUTHOR OF THE FEDERALIST PAPERS; ORIGINAL CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE U. S. SUPREME COURT; GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK
Condescend, merciful Father! to grant as far as proper these imperfect petitions, to accept these inadequate thanksgivings, and to pardon whatever of sin hath mingled in them for the sake of Jesus Christ, our blessed Lord and Savior; unto Whom, with Thee, and the blessed Spirit, ever one God, be rendered all honor and glory, now and forever. 56
Unto Him who is the author and giver of all good, I render sincere and humble thanks for His manifold and unmerited blessings, and especially for our redemption and salvation by His beloved Son. . . . Blessed be His holy name.57
Mercy and grace and favor did come by Jesus Christ, and also that truth which verified the promises and predictions concerning Him and which exposed and corrected the various errors which had been imbibed respecting the Supreme Being, His attributes, laws, and dispensations.58
By conveying the Bible to people . . . we certainly do them a most interesting act of kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced. The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer in whom all the nations of the earth should be blessed – that this Redeemer has made atonement “for the sins of the whole world,” and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy, has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve. The Bible will also [encourage] them with many explicit and consoling assurances of the Divine mercy to our fallen race, and with repeated invitations to accept the offers of pardon and reconciliation. . . . They, therefore, who enlist in His service, have the highest encouragement to fulfill the du¬ties assigned to their respective stations; for most certain it is, that those of His followers who [participate in] His conquests will also participate in the transcendent glories and blessings of His Triumph.59
I recommend a general and public return of praise and thanksgiving to Him from whose goodness these blessings descend. The most effectual means of securing the continuance of our civil and religious liberties is always to remember with reverence and gratitude the source from which they flow.60
The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts.61
[T]he evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds... they who undertake that task will derive advantages.62
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.63
Thomas Jefferson
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.64
The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.65
I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.66
I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.67
William Samuel Johnson
JUDGE; MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; PRESIDENT OF COLUMBIA COLLEGE; U. S. SENATOR
. . . am endeavoring . . . to attend to my own duty only as a Christian. . . . let us take care that our Christianity, though put to the test . . . be not shaken, and that our love for things really good wax not cold.68
In an address to graduates:
You this day. . . . have, by the favor of Providence and the attention of friends, received a public education, the purpose whereof hath been to qualify you the better to serve your Creator and your country. You have this day invited this audience to witness the progress you have made. . . . Thus you assume the character of scholars, of men, and of citizens. . . . Go, then, . . . and exercise them with diligence, fidelity, and zeal. . . . Your first great duties, you are sensible, are those you owe to Heaven, to your Creator and Redeemer. Let these be ever present to your minds, and exemplified in your lives and conduct. Imprint deep upon your minds the principles of piety towards God, and a reverence and fear of His holy name. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and its [practice] is everlasting [happiness] . . . . Reflect deeply and often upon [your] relations [with God]. Remember that it is in God you live and move and have your being, – that, in the language of David, He is about your bed and about your path and spieth out all your ways – that there is not a thought in your hearts, nor a word upon your tongues, but lo! He knoweth them al¬together, and that He will one day call you to a strict account for all your conduct in this mortal life. Remember, too, that you are the redeemed of the Lord, that you are bought with a price, even the inestimable price of the precious blood of the Son of God. Adore Jehovah, therefore, as your God and your Judge. Love, fear, and serve Him as your Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. Acquaint yourselves with Him in His word and holy ordinances. . . . [G]o forth into the world firmly resolved neither to be allured by its vanities nor contaminated by its vices, but to run with patience and perseverance, with firmness and [cheerfulness], the glorious career of religion, honor, and virtue. . . . Finally, . . . in the elegant and expressive language are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report, if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things” – and do them, and the God of peace shall be with you, to whose most gracious protection I now commend you, humbly imploring Almighty Goodness that He will be your guardian and your guide, your protector and the rock of your defense, your Savior and your God.69
James Kent
JUDGE; LAW PROFESSOR; “FATHER OF AMERICAN JURISPRUDENCE”
My children, I wish to talk to you. During my early and middle life I was, perhaps, rather skeptical with regard to some of the truths of Christianity. Not that I did not have the utmost respect for religion and always read my Bible, but the doctrine of the atonement was one I never could understand, and I felt inclined to consider as impossible to be received in the way Divines taught it. I believe I was rather inclined to Unitarianism; but of late years my views have altered. I believe in the doctrines of the prayer books as I understand them, and hope to be saved through the merits of Jesus Christ. . . . My object in telling you this is that if anything happens to me, you might know, and perhaps it would console you to remember, that on this point my mind is clear: I rest my hopes of salvation on the Lord Jesus Christ.70
Francis Scott Key
U. S. ATTORNEY FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA; AUTHOR OF THE “STAR SPANGLED BANNER”
[M]ay I always hear that you are following the guidance of that blessed Spirit that will lead you into all truth, leaning on that Almighty arm that has been extended to deliver you, trusting only in the only Savior, and going on in your way to Him rejoicing.71
James Madison
SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; AUTHOR OF THE FEDERALIST PAPERS; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; SECRETARY OF STATE; FOURTH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven.72
I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.73
James Manning
MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; PRESIDENT OF BROWN UNIVERSITY
I rejoice that the religion of Jesus prevails in your parts; I can tell you the same agreeable news from this quarter. Yesterday I returned from Piscataway in East Jersey, where was held a Baptist annual meeting (I think the largest I ever saw) but much more remarkable still for the Divine influences which God was pleased to grant. Fifteen were baptized; a number during the three days professed to experience a change of heart. Christians were remarkably quickened; multitudes appeared.74
Henry Marchant
MEMBER OF THE CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; ATTORNEY GENERAL OF RHODE ISLAND; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; FEDERAL JUDGE APPOINTED BY PRESIDENT GEORGE WASHINGTON
And may God grant that His grace may really affect your heart with suitable impressions of His goodness. Remember that God made you, that God keeps you alive and preserves you from all harm, and gives you all the powers and the capacity whereby you are able to read of Him and of Jesus Christ, your Savior and Redeemer, and to do every other needful business of life. And while you look around you and see the great privileges and advantages you have above what other children have (of learning to read and write, of being taught the meaning of the great truths of the Bible), you must remember not to be proud on that account but to bless God and be thankful and endeavor in your turn to assist others with the knowledge you may gain.75(to his daughter)
George Mason
DELEGATE AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION; “FATHER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS”
I give and bequeath my soul to Almighty God that gave it me, hoping that through the meritorious death and passion of our Savior and Redeemer Jesus Christ to receive absolution and remission for all my sins.76
My soul I resign into the hands of my Almighty Creator, Whose tender mercies are all over His works. . humbly hoping from His unbounded mercy and benevolence, through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins.77
James McHenry
REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; SECRETARY OF WAR UNDER PRESIDENTS GEORGE WASHINGTON AND JOHN ADAMS
[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. Without the Bible, in vain do we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions.78
Bibles are strong protections. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.79
Thomas McKean
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE
In the case Respublica v. John Roberts,80 John Roberts was sentenced to death after a jury found him guilty of treason. Chief Justice McKean then told him:
You will probably have but a short time to live. Before you launch into eternity, it behooves you to improve the time that may be allowed you in this world: it behooves you most seriously to reflect upon your past conduct; to repent of your evil deeds; to be incessant in prayers to the great and merciful God to forgive your manifold transgressions and sins; to teach you to rely upon the merit and passion of a dear Redeemer, and thereby to avoid those regions of sorrow – those doleful shades where peace and rest can never dwell, where even hope cannot enter. It behooves you to seek the [fellowship], advice, and prayers of pious and good men; to be [persistent] at the Throne of Grace, and to learn the way that leadeth to happiness. May you, reflecting upon these things, and pursuing the will of the great Father of light and life, be received into [the] company and society of angels and archangels and the spirits of just men made perfect; and may you be qualified to enter into the joys of Heaven – joys unspeakable and full of glory!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Oh, ruck me funning.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Please do not lay genocide at the feet of Christ.
He had nothing to do with it. Many atrocities are done in Christ's name. Many atrocities are done in GOD's name.
He has nothing to do with it.
Haven't you read the Good Book where Christ says to so called "believers" and those who did works in his name, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity. I never knew you." (to paraphrase Jesus)?
Manifest destiny, genocide of Native North Americans, is not GOD/Christ's doing or will. Did he know that is what we would choose to do? Yes. Does GOD use our bad decisions to his advantage? Yes. He isn't fooled. And he will make use of our bad behavior, or our misdeeds, or our crimes against humanity to bring about change and judgement against a people.
Manifest Destiny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny
Many of faith do not know that the United States of America is indeed discussed throughout the Bible. Learn all you can about "Mystery Babylon" and you will learn the fate of the United States.
There is only one nation that fulfills all the prophecy throughout the Bible regarding "Mystery Babylon," and that is the USA.
The United States has done many wonderful things throughout its history, but we have also done a great many atrocities. GOD knows.
We can do the right thing right now as a Nation and turn back toward GOD and do what is right. We need to treat the rest of the World right, in truth, with justice, with caring, and with love. Doing so we would hold back GOD's judgement for a time as long as we return back to him, and do his will. We need to use our power for good and not evil. It could be different. It could. But, many in power who are corrupt, are bent on destroying our Nation, one way or another.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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It's fascinating to consider that every creature that has ever existed on this planet, every plant, every organism, every living thing has died or will die, and that more than ninety percent of the species that have existed on the Earth are now extinct... how can one discern from the extreme violence and largess of nature that behind this chaotic and extravagant violence exists a providential God with a plan and an interest in your well being?
Where is the evidence of a plan? Where is the evidence for an inherent goodness? Where is the evidence for God's love beyond the idiosyncratic feelings of believers and their self proclaimed divine texts?
If you are miraculously saved by God through prayer from some disease or some danger, it's only to postpone the inevitable end that is so grave and constant in human experience. All must experience death.
If there was a God wouldn't it be a little kinder than that.
Ultimately God is only the feary father that begins to fade in any man's life. The scary being that both supported and punished us and on whom we depended for protection. We can't let him go and so he continues as a metaphor for a necessary obedience, and a resulting approval.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Paul, again...
"Dear Brother Gary,
Anytime you are engaging in validating the truth of God and His Word (apologetics), you must recognize that you may well be like a brilliant lawyer delivering a watertight case that leaves no room for reasonable doubt, but the jury is so corrupted and distracted that no amount of evidence will suffice to prompt them to render a fair and truthful verdict. That being said, we are nevertheless instructed to
"sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" (1 Peter 3:15). Notice the emphasis in this verse. FIRST and FOREMOST, apologetics is about
honoring God, not convincing the skeptic, though we should have an ordered defense that is persuasive and reasonable. Pray about your motives, brother, before you wade into the forum of this world's willful ignorance, which argues from the perspective of the natural mind. Cater to intellectual integrity, but never pander to intellectual arrogance.
Peter, in his second epistle, warns that the things written by
"our beloved brother Paul" are in some cases
"hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:15,16). So it should not be surprising that Paul's epistle to the Romans, which is such a superb example of clearheaded reasoning, may be rejected as foolishness by the natural mind (1 Corinthians 2:14). As for me, the more times a I read Romans 11:32 (why should we stop at only 5 times as your poison-pen pal suggests?), the more sense it makes to me, until I am led to exclaim with Paul
"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" (Romans 11:33). Let's consider this verse that evokes the vitriol of your friend:
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32). Paul gives us a logical and historical account of Israel's past (Romans 9), Israel's present (Romans 10), and Israel's future (Romans 11), showing the marvelous tapestry of God's workmanship in the nation Israel, which He will again exalt as the head of the nations when He completes His work with them. Israel was chosen to be a spectacle to the nations around them, whether by their obedience and blessing or their rebellion and chastisement. In either case God has concluded that "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). The Law condemns Jew and Gentile alike. If we could keep the Law to the satisfaction of God's holiness, then we would not need faith in God, since "the Law is not of faith: but the man that doeth them shall live in them" (Galatians 3:12). So what is so unreasonable about Romans 11:32 in the light of God's gift of righteousness which comes by faith? God puts us all in the circle of unbelief; then He says that everyone in that circle qualifies in to receive His salvation freely, Jew and Gentile alike. Everyone is equally able (and urged!) to step out of that qualifying circle of unbelief and come into the sphere of saving faith that responds to God's gracious offer of salvation, purchased at heaven's highest expense. Obviously, we're not talking about the circle of mere intellectual unbelief, but the unbelief that has not exercised the God-given prerogative to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 1:12,13). We can intellectually believe that the Lord is knocking on the door of our heart (Revelations 3:20), and still neglect to open it in spite of the enormous body of evidence (Hebrew 2:3,4).
How absurdly the natural mind concludes that "the Christian doctrine unravels around Romans 11:32" as your friend as asserted, obviously ignoring the careful case that Paul built in Romans chapters 1-3, laying the 7-fold foundation of the Gospel's credibility (refer to attached, Why Should You Believe the Bible?, addressing verses 1-4 & 18-20), and then laying out the threefold view of the sinful society (Romans 1:21-32), the self-righteous society (Romans 2:1-16), and finally the Semitic society (Romans 2:17-29), proving finally that
"both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin" (Romans 3:9).
So, brother Gary, we can expect blind unbelief to rant, ignoring the obvious, casting aside the marvelous wisdom of God as foolishness. A fool can deny that there is no such thing as gravity after scaling Yosemite's El Capitán, imagining that he can simply float to the bottom. Neither the sincerity of his faith nor the force of his argument will diminish the effect of the law of gravity. Nor shall it ever change the Law of God that demands righteousness, which can only be obtained by saving faith in Christ,
"even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ" (Romans 3:22). How foolishly the unbeliever replies against God!
"For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?" (Romans 3:3).
Never.
God bless you, brother Gary. Above all, honor God.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"right there, ID, you've pretty much defined every islamic theocracy from the caliphate onward. of course, they prefer the name "allah"."
"pretty much" but not even close...nice try Tony. "allah" is not the God that's in my KJV! The top of the "ladder rung" in islam is "jihad," according to the Ko'ran. God forbid!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCHb9dAAx0w (Parts 1-5)
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Cater to intellectual integrity, but never pander to intellectual arrogance."
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night." Psalm 1:1-2
Good advice...I'm out.
Glory to God!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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my, people do get going. it was amazing, though, for about six posts there was actual dialogue between dr. F and gobee. cheers for that, fellas.
klimmer, i'm afraid i do lay a lot at the feet of jesus. the modern world, especially the powerful, dominant nations in it, are pretty much of jesus's making, the result of two millenia of christianity. you can turn jesus's own words against him: "by their works you will know them". the good guys do good works, the bad guys do bad things. christians stopped being good guys when they turned to fascism, which happened when they got into bed with the roman empire. suddenly the people who were being fed to the lions started burning heretics at the stake. christianity has thrived on its fascism, and what irks me about it most is the false innocence in which it portrays itself. the priests preach lovey-dovey while the conquistadors put all the nonsubmissives to the sword--and then confess their "sins" and, for the price of a few mumbles, are right back in the program in all their soldierly glory. don't kid yourself--this plays out right down to the present.
it's just a f*#ked-up world, klim, i'll grant you that, but jesus hasn't made it any better, and it makes far less sense when you try to view it through the distortions of christian doctrine. your performance on some of your other threads, i think, demonstrates that spectacularly.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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"Have you ever watched 60-minuites, or any other News program and seen the Musical savants?"
The thought came to me and is humbling, it seems impossible that in their state they could do what they do with music, God makes no mistakes there is a place for everyone, and he can use us! In life the race is not always won by the fastest, strongest, or smartest, but it depends on God! God wishes that all would come to repentance and that none should perish! My grandfather said to me one time "Don't cut your nose off to spite your face!" and that's bona fide!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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http://mysticbanana.com/is-this-a-possible-past-life.html
And don’t forget Carl Sagan. Carl Sagan – brilliant scientific mind behind the “Cosmos” miniseries and books, part of the science team for the Voyagers spacecraft – and known for his tireless dedication to debunking claims of the paranormal. As a serious scientist, Sagan detested the “baloney” in the so-called supernatural world, and even founded a group specifically to examine and debunk paranormal claims. But after looking into the studies conducted by serious researchers, such as Dr. Ian Stevenson, in the field of reincarnation, Sagan was so impressed that he concluded [emphasis mine] that reincarnation is possible:
“At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: … (3) that young children sometimes report the DETAILS OF A PREVIOUS LIFE, which upon checking turn out to be ACCURATE and which they COULD NOT HAVE KNOWN ABOUT IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN REINCARNATION. I pick these claims … as examples of contentions that MIGHT BE TRUE.” – “Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark” by Carl Sagan (pg 300)
i would disagree here on one point, and it probably portrays the limitations of sagan's thinking and that of so many others like him: "could not have been known about in any other way". he's judging something phenomenal by his own experience, a dangerous thing to do on the outer limits. i think gobee is doing the same.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Along the same lines...
A genius explains, Daniel Tammet is an autistic savant
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2005/feb/12/weekend7.weekend2
"When I multiply numbers together, I see two shapes. The image starts to change and evolve, and a third shape emerges. That's the answer. It's mental imagery. It's like maths without having to think."
"It sounds silly, but numbers are my friends"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Hey! I am a drug addict.
Finally, me and Gobee got something in common!
How you doing buddy go bee?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Yep, quit that nasty sh@t for years now, don't ever start is the best advice!
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WBraun
climber
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paul roehl -- "If there was a God wouldn't it be a little kinder than that."
If God kills you personally it would be the ultimate kindness.
Your view of kindness is based in the mode of passion and ignorance.
Most peoples view of kindness is steeped in those modes of passion and ignorance because they have a very limited or no understanding of why you're here.
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WBraun
climber
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Don't believe anything without testing it first ......
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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you see what you want in islam, ID, and project into christianity what you please. jihad is popularly known in the west as "holy war", but a better translation would be "righteous struggle," a lot like what christians says jesus did (muslims say mohammed did too), and their own supposedly righteous struggles as his followers.
"onward christian, er, bonington ..."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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You know, I sure miss elcap-pics and wish he would visit threads like these more. No doubt his posts would raise the grade level. So get this, here he is, from an ancient thread, responding to Trippy7 or ID4Jesus:
"Sorry Bro... don't believe in the Devil either. Did you know that a survey recently found that 25% of americans believe that the devil is actually a little creature that comes out of the ground to cause trouble? Amazing!!
Sorry but I don't believe in the power of Prayer either. So many go unanswered ... Prayer makes no sense to me. Either there is no god and it is thus useless or there is a god and it is still useless...
Here is why.
You believe that god is all knowing and powerful.. right?
So, even though you have free will, god still knows what is going to happen to you in the future... if he didn't then he wouldn't be all knowing now would he.. right? In fact you believe that god already knows if I will be "saved" or not. He knows what you are thinking and what I am thinking, according to your beliefs ... right? And you believe that god knows far more about my situation that you do. You believe that god is perfect and never makes mistakes... right?
You have confidence that god will do the right thing, because of course what ever he does is always the right thing and you can't tell him anything that he doesn't already know anyway. Right? So your prayer is not going to influence him in the least because he already knows if I am going to be "saved" or not. And because he already knows then he is powerless to change that or that would mean he didn't really know the situation in the first place and that is, as you know, impossible.
In fact the very idea of you telling him what he should do is in a way a statement from you that you don't think he can handle the situation without your input. Or that he doesn't already know that you.. say..hope I am saved. So by asking him to do something you are really saying that he needs to be told what is going on. He already knows what is going on so you are wasting your time. God can figure things out without your input, unless of course you think he can't... then by all means... pray on Bro!
I will take my chances with god. I am perfectly confident he is a myth and nothing more.
I have tried these discussions with the religious in the past in hopes of finding some rational to their beliefs. It never works. Religion is not rational. I was educated as an engineer and taught Physics and mathematics for 30 years... as such I taught critical thinking and problem solving. I think that reason and scientific proof is the best way to understand the universe. So I am always asking for proof and reasons and the religious, like yourselves, have none of that to offer in the final analysis. You believe without such tools. I can't. I find these topics interesting but quickly tiring .... as you yourselves do.
I think I have heard what you have to say and none of it meets my criteria. Of course none of what I have to say meets yours either. So life goes on ... and know that hate has no place in my life. In fact that is one dagger that would be best left unthrown, as it is unproductive in an argument... argument meaning an exchange of ideas not an emotional response of anger.
Thanks for your input.... no personal offense meant and none taken. Good luck!"
.....
A candle in the dark. For sure. Where are you elcap-pics? :)
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jstan
climber
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"Please do not lay genocide at the feet of Christ.
He had nothing to do with it. Many atrocities are done in Christ's name. Many atrocities are done in GOD's name.
He has nothing to do with it."
But
But
God is all powerful.
By god's inaction, god becomes a co-conspirator.
God is equally guilty. as though the knife were in god's own hand.
I love it how god's being all-powerful gets trotted out sometimes and not other times.
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WBraun
climber
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HFCS -- "I find these topics interesting but quickly tiring .... as you yourselves do."
I'm never tired, my energy increases exceptionally with every thought on the Supreme absolute truth.
That is the proof that God exists.
The mundaners like you are limited by beginning and end, birth and death .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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What, are you trying to get a rise out of me you old Rascal? Where are you quoting me from? Or perhaps you've got me confused with one of your other heroes, hahaha.
Oh, I see. You quoted elcap-pics. That's elcap-pics, not me, read more slowly, comprehensively next time.
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WBraun
climber
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See ... I got YOU to read comprehensively ......
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Captain...or Skully
climber
leading the away team, but not in a red shirt!
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100% of Truckers surveyed will NOT shake your hand if you introduce yourself as Satan.
So far......The survey continues.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Toni, you're still stretching things with Sagan.
a quote's a quote, huffy. sagan believed that once. he believed a lot more when he wrote contact than he did when he wrote demon-haunted world. sagan is like any prophet, yours, mine or gobee's. we cherry-pick what we want from these suckers. gobee and norton use the same prophets--you and i ought to be able to quote sagan to our purposes.
-------------
thanks, jstan, for reiterating my gripe. jesus claims to be a good shepherd, but his many flocks stray confusedly and erringly across the wide world. better he should have been a good cowboy and known how to ride herd.
I'm never tired, my energy increases exceptionally with every thought on the Supreme absolute truth.
look out for werner. he ain't
NEVER GONNA DIE!!
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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"pretty much" but not even close...nice try Tony. "allah" is not the God that's in my KJV! The top of the "ladder rung" in islam is "jihad," according to the Ko'ran. God forbid! Your ignorance SCREAMS.
Again, although you just keep denying this, "Allah" is simply the Aramaic word for "God".. it is the same God that Jesus prayed to, that of the God of Abraham. Even modern Christians who speak Aramaic call God, "Allah", as AGAIN, it's the word for God in that language.
Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[3] The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah#Christianity
See, the thing is, since this does NOT fit with what you "want" to believe, you deny and ignore this. So, what would you tell the Christians who only speak Aramiac? That they are wrong?
Mulims worship the same God of Abraham, which is the same God as Jesus worshipped, but NOT the same God that you worship, as you worship Jesus. Then, you delude yourself into believing that he IS God.
See, these are the things that you deny and ignore...
Jesus:
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come." (Mark 13:32-33)
So, how can Xians believe that Jesus is God (a la the Trinity), if even He isn't privy to what 1/3rd of Him knows?
Oh, wait... I already know that... Selective interpretation, rat6ionalization, and delusion.
Looks like, if there was any devinity involved here with Jesus, Arius was right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
Lastly, "your KJV", is a terribly edited and even twisted text, written in the early 1600s, with the explicite direction of King James I that it align with the beliefs of the Church Of England, which had split from the Cathies since the Kings didn't want to be subserviant to the Popes. (I.e., don;t like the religion, then just rewrite it to your liking)
de·lu·sion
a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
ra·tion·al·ize
to invent plausible explanations for acts, opinions, etc., that are actually based on other causes
to ascribe (one's acts, opinions, etc.) to causes that superficially seem reasonable and valid but that actually are unrelated to the true, possibly unconscious and often less creditable or agreeable causes.
faith
strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence
a conviction of the truth of certain doctrines of religion, esp when this is not based on reason
allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause
Or, if you prefer:
Let's look at Phil. 1:27 & 2 Thess. 2:13
It shows that "faith" is in general the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true.
Consider that for a second: "Persuasion of the mind"
But just because the mind has been persuaded doesn't make it true, does it? Worse, the persuaded mind becomes convinced that it is true, to the point that it is "resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact", thus inspiring a "strong or unshakeable belief in something", then an "allegiance or loyalty, as to a person or cause", even requiring it to "invent plausible explanations for acts, opinions, etc.," when confronted with ANYTHING that doesn't fit. This 'rinse and repeat' cycle only serves to reinforce the belief, but it still doesn't make it so... It only makes it stronger, and more unshakable.
See... The thing is... ALL of this you can verify yourself to be true, ALL OF IT. But, you just can't do that, as it would mean that you are wrong, therefore you must ignore and deny all of this. "Rinse and repeat".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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In our world we have all kinds of retardants, fire retardants and education retardants, to name two. Though I just learned magnesium hydroxide is a "fire retardant", I've known for a long time the three Abrahamic religions - at least since the renaissance - when practiced to extreme by their (fundamentalist) devotees - are "education retardants".
Wish more people did.
Today's a day I'm contemplating retardants - the many types of retardants - that populate our world. There are many types.
P.S. All this snow on the crags is a climbing retardant. Tsk.
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jstan
climber
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"Paul,
You seem to blame God for all the ill's of the world because He IS God?
Go-B"
I do hold god responsible, definitely. Do you want to know why?
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WBraun
climber
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"I must know what he did"
He created you.
And then you made your own nightmare .....
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jstan
climber
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Werner is on track here, But I am waiting for Go-B.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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jstan
climber
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I know. I know.
Mind you I am assuming a person trying to save my soul thinks I am worth talking to.
That is an assumption.
I, of course, will jump at the chance to be saved by someone who thinks I have s..t for brains.
Such an honor.
By the way that is a great hat.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Thanks rrrADAM
for explaining that Allah simply means God or more specifically, the One God. Let us not forget that the Palestinian Arabs are descended from the same father as the Israeli Jews - the patriarch Abraham who had two wives.
That's why the Muslims accept the Old and New Testaments in addition to the Koran. Some scholars have even said that Islam was the true universalizing offspring of Judaism rather than Christianity, as it kept the monotheistic emphasis of Judaism which the Christians departed from with their concept of the Trinity. Even then, one could claim that Muslims at least worship 1/3 of the same God as the Christians?!
As for the teaching of the Trinity, there were a number of African and Middle Eastern churches which did not accept the version put forth by the Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox. These are churches few have heard of such as the Copts, the Chaldeans, the Armenians, the Nestorians etc.
These Christians, and Jews as well, were treated better under the Muslims for many centuries than Jews or dissenting Christians were treated in Europe. Now thanks to three centuries of western imperialism in the Middle East, they have unfortunatley been lumped together with western Christians as "crusaders" and are now subjected to violence.
Christian history did not begin with Martin Luther or the King James Bible!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dr. F.
It's always good to be known as open minded!
:)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Let us not forget that the Palestinian Arabs are descended from the same father as the Israeli Jews - the patriarch Abraham who had two wives.
strictly speaking, I think you meant to say that there is a presumed lineage to Abraham, we don't know if the guy actually existed let alone who his kids were... it is just a story passed down and eventually retold in the book...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan, if you have the time, watch Sam Harris at Berkeley, Nov 2010, I'll get the link and post it in a moment. I'm curious to know what you think in general about it and also your reflection on the response from the woman in the Q and A section and, in turn, Harris' response to her, and, for that matter, on anything else you find interesting or noteworthy.
I mean, if you want. :)
I'll go find that link now. And post it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0GvH-3Nm70
P.S. I thought the lecture was very good. Certainly worth the time. (Thanks Internet.) I suppose, to you, no surprise. :)
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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jstan
I do hold god responsible, definitely. Do you want to know why?
Yes I would!
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WBraun
climber
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go-B has never said a harsh word to anyone here.
He's a very kind soul.
One should never be harsh to him.
He loves Jesus Christ unconditionally and that's all that matters .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
I did read Sam Harris' latest book, The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values on your recommendation and agree with you that it's a good step in the right direction though he could have done a better job.
As for his talk and the example of the woman scientist who ended up stating that putting out the eyes of every third child could not be condemned if it was part of someone's religion and the statement by the American Anthropological Association that there can be no universal human rights because of cultural relativity, I think both demonstrate the problem of relying more on logic and logical sequence than a sense of compassion or what some might call just common ethical sense.
Both of those positions emanated from compassion originally and the attempt to make people in the western world less judgmental and ethnocentric. The problem for both religion and science it would seem, is in the execution.
History has numerous examples of how one can take an idealistic view in religion and logically step by logical step, end up with events like the Inquisition. We have fewer such events in the history of science because it is a shorter history among other things. Nazi and Japanese medical experiments on prisoners comes to mind however, as an example of science gone awry by the same process.
Personally I believe that far more people will be converted away from fundamentalist religion by the presentation of a scientifically based universal morality than by the attack methods of the other well known atheists of the day.
I have always believed that values and ethics could be taught without reference to any specific God or religion. In East Asia, I see it every day under the guise of the secular humanism taught by Confucius more than 2,500 years ago.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Luke 19:37, As he was drawing near—already on the way down the Mount of Olives—the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice l for all the mighty works that they had seen, 38 saying, “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” 39 And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” 40 He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”
If that happened in Yosemite it could get pretty loud!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dr. F-
Kind is not an adjective that I would ever apply to Mao ???
The whole point of revolution is that it often starts with an altruistic impulse but always ends with lots of bloodshed which history may or may not deem worthwhile, depending on the results obtained.
To paraphrase Mao himself,
"Revolution is not a ladies' teas party or a knitting society, it is a violent act whereby one social class overthrows another".
Particularly after the 20 something Mao saw his young first wife killed by Chiang kai shek's forces, he was not known for gentleness or kindness and understandably so.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Religion mutilates reality as a means of generating its own (religion's) continuation. It declares what is morally evil to be righteous in order to make sense of itself.
When the inquisitor tortures the witch into confession it is an act of kindness ultimately for the benefit of the witch.
When someone declares that to be killed by God is a great kindness, human experience is turned upside down; reality is abandoned.
When the suicide bomber destroys the innocent, it is an act of kindness in favor of a God and the bomber's brother believers.
Religion is the poison that placates our fears at the expense of our sanity.
How comfortable it is to exist in a state of faith, of absolute and perfect knowledge and how dangerous and how corrupting.
The safety and comfort of faith incubates an unreasonableness without limitations.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan-
I too thought the book came up short though I did get a few tidbits of insight out of it I think. Glad you watched the video, actually liked it better than the book as I felt I got more out of it. The woman I referred to in the QA section exchanged with Sam over whether or not Mahammad was a man of peace (like Islam is a religion of peace). But the account you alluded to about the policy advisor and every third shall walk in darkness was poignant if not a bit funny, too. I found it one more vignette that hints to where the field (of thinking) is development wise, etc.
re: getting behind one's moral intuitions, correcting for one's moral failures
One of the more interesting parts of the lecture for me personally was when Sam discussed (a) our moral intuitions and how these can fail us (drawing analogies with our logical intuitions and perceptual intuitions and how these can fail us), (b) how we could / should get behind them, overcome them by correcting for them - but then seemed to stop short of giving examples in doing this (e.g, by pushing the fat man off the bridge in the traintracks example even though it goes against the pusher's moral intuition or by saving 3-4 kids instead of one's own 1-2, again even though it goes against a parent's moral intuition). This was one of the lecture's more insightful points that he failed to carry through on to finish, I think, though more subtle, maybe you caught it. If you know what I mean...
Thanks for posting up.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Pate-
Particularly enjoyed "verses" 2 and 3 from your bible.
re: courage, real courage
"It's when you know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you do."
.....
"You can plan all you want to. You can lie in your morning bed and fill whole notebooks with schemes and intentions. But within a single afternoon, within hours or minutes, everything you plan and everything you have fought to make yourself can be undone as a slug is undone when salt is poured on him. And right up to the moment when you find yourself dissolving into foam you can still believe you are doing fine."
re: A creature does what it can - till its destiny is revealed to it.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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James 4:13, Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. 17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.
No man is an island, some rules help us get around, but God's rules are for life, and more abundantly!
Isaiah 43:25, “I, I am he
who blots out your transgressions for my own sake,
and I will not remember your sins.
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jstan
climber
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Go-B:
Thank you very much for your reply.
I propose that you and I have a dialog that either of us can end without prejudice, as we choose.
To start I ask a question.
Is God all-powerful?
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jstan
climber
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Go-B:
Thank you very much for your reply.
I propose that you and I have a dialog that either of us can end without prejudice, as we choose.
To start I ask a question.
Is God all-powerful?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 10:52am PT
"Is God all-powerful?"
Yes, but He stay's true to His word, (Himself), and His covenant!
Stannard:
Good. Now another question.
Is God also all-knowing?
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jstan
climber
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Go-B:
Thank you very much for your reply.
I propose that you and I have a dialog that either of us can end without prejudice, as we choose.
To start I ask a question.
Is God all-powerful?
jstan
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 10:52am PT
"Is God all-powerful?"
Yes, but He stay's true to His word, (Himself), and His covenant!
Stannard:
Good. Now another question.
Is God also all-knowing?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
"Is God also all-knowing?"
Yes!
Jstan:
Excellent.
Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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"Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?"
Yes!
Genesis 1:1 In the a beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...
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jstan
climber
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jstan
Go-B:
Thank you very much for your reply.
I propose that you and I have a dialog that either of us can end without prejudice, as we choose.
To start I ask a question.
Is God all-powerful?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 10:52am PT
"Is God all-powerful?"
Yes, but He stay's true to His word, (Himself), and His covenant!
Jstan
Good. Now another question.
Is God also all-knowing?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
"Is God also all-knowing?"
Yes!
Jstan:
Excellent.
Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
"Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?"
Yes!
Genesis 1:1 In the a beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...
Indeed.
Did this all-knowing all-powerful God create each and every one of us?
Jstan
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Did this all-knowing all-powerful God create each and every one of us?
Yes!
Genesis 1:27, So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
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jstan
climber
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jstan
Go-B:
Thank you very much for your reply.
I propose that you and I have a dialog that either of us can end without prejudice, as we choose.
To start I ask a question.
Is God all-powerful?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 10:52am PT
"Is God all-powerful?"
Yes, but He stay's true to His word, (Himself), and His covenant!
Jstan
Good. Now another question.
Is God also all-knowing?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
"Is God also all-knowing?"
Yes!
Jstan:
Excellent.
Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
"Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?"
Yes!
Genesis 1:1 In the a beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...
Indeed.
Did this all-knowing all-powerful God create each and every one of us?
Jstan
Edit
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Did this all-knowing all-powerful God create each and every one of us?
Yes!
Genesis 1:27, So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
jstan
Does this all-knowing all-powerful God who created each and everyone of us sometimes find it necessary to consign some to writhing for an eternity in the flames of Hell?
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jstan
climber
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Dr. F:
Actually not slow at all. I knew Go-Be was a fair minded sincere person. So the both of us might learn from a dialog.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Now I do not agree with the Pope on everything that is for sure (I'm Protestant), however, I do agree with him in this regard . . .
God was behind Big Bang, pope says
'The universe is not the result of chance, as some would want to make us believe'
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40945242/ns/technology_and_science-science/#
Science is about Cosmic Order, the search for truth through the physical and empirical, and answers What and How questions. Science is a wonderful tool.
Religion, Philosophy, Logic are about Cosmic Purpose, the search for truth through the spiritual and reasoning, and answer Who and Why questions.
Both are searches for truth. Both are very important human endeavors.
In the end they become one. As we get closer to the light of truth, they both converge and get closer and closer together. One day Science and Faith will be one. They will completely agree in all accounts.
"Read The Science of GOD" by PhD Gerald Schroeder. Science and The Word of GOD are in agreement. Theistic Evolution.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 7, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
jstan
Go-B:
Thank you very much for your reply.
I propose that you and I have a dialog that either of us can end without prejudice, as we choose.
To start I ask a question.
Is God all-powerful?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 10:52am PT
"Is God all-powerful?"
Yes, but He stay's true to His word, (Himself), and His covenant!
Jstan
Good. Now another question.
Is God also all-knowing?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
"Is God also all-knowing?"
Yes!
Jstan:
Excellent.
Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
"Did this all-powerful and all-knowing god create the universe and everything in it?"
Yes!
Genesis 1:1 In the a beginning, God created the heavens and the earth...
Indeed.
Did this all-knowing all-powerful God create each and every one of us?
Jstan
Edit
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Did this all-knowing all-powerful God create each and every one of us?
Yes!
Genesis 1:27, So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
jstan
Does this all-knowing all-powerful God who created each and everyone of us sometimes find it necessary to consign some to writhing for an eternity in the flames of Hell?
go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
Jan 7, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
"Does this all-knowing all-powerful God who created each and everyone of us sometimes find it necessary to consign some to writhing for an eternity in the flames of Hell?"
No, If God tells us all we need to know and do to avoid hell, did not we ourselves?
Jstan:
But if God were all-knowing and all-powerful when he created us, he knew how it would end for us, and to avoid having to send us to Hell he could have simply changed how he created us. Being all-powerful, it would have been easy.
We place a huge burden of responsibility on a god when we imagine they are all-powerful and all- knowing. Do we not?
I would not have blamed god at all if when god was nominated for the post he had said he would do it only on the condition either the all-knowing or the all-powerful had to be dropped from his job description.
If it were you, would you not have insisted upon this? I think you would.
Now let me, humbly, ask myself what I would do were I offered the post.
I would have asked myself which of the two stories below might most powerfully inspire people in their struggle each and every day to treat each other well and to express fully all the generousity, compassion and forgiveness of which each of us is capable.
The story of a courageous man, no different from you or I who is willing to lose even his own life in his struggle to help people of his day learn to value each other more highly. And to undertake this struggle against hopeless odds and dangerous forces, just as you and I do even today. (Each of us gets to chose the name of this man.)
Or the story of an all-powerful entity who creates men he knows beforehand are so flawed he will have to consign some to the flames for eternity. Knowing even at their creation it was perfectly within his power to create people who would not need to face this fate?
It is a choice between heroism - and raw power.
Go-Be, this very day each one of us continues the struggle described above.
The struggle has not changed in the slightest.
It has been a pleasure talking to you.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Does prayer work? Does God relent?
Exodus 32:11, But Moses implored the Lord his God and said, “O Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, ‘With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, to whom you swore by your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your offspring, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.
Psalm 106:45, For their sake he remembered his covenant, and relented according to the abundance of his steadfast love.
Jeremiah 15:6, You have rejected me, declares the Lord; you keep going backward, so I have stretched out my hand against you and destroyed you— I am weary of relenting.
Jeremiah 18:8, and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 18:10, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.
Jeremiah 26:3, It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may relent of the disaster that I intend to do to them because of their evil deeds.
Jeremiah 26:13, Now therefore mend your ways and your deeds, and obey the voice of the Lord your God, and the Lord will relent of the disaster that he has pronounced against you.
Joel 2:13, and rend your hearts and not your garments.” Return to the Lord your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.
Joel 2:14, Who knows whether he will not turn and relent, and leave a blessing behind him, a grain offering and a drink offering for the Lord your God?
Jonah 3:9, Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.”
Jonah 3:10, When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.
Jonah 4:2, And he prayed to the Lord and said, “O Lord, is not this what I said when I was yet in my country? That is why I made haste to flee to Tarshish; for I knew that you are a gracious God and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, and relenting from disaster.
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WBraun
climber
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Jstan said:
"But if God were all-knowing and all-powerful when he created us, he knew how it would end for us, and to avoid having to send us to Hell he could have simply changed how he created us. Being all-powerful, it would have been easy."
It starts out with "but if"
That's guessing. Doesn't work at all with God Almighty.
Otherwise you would be supreme, God himself. No we're subordinate.
You need to ask him the questions not guess and make statements.
That would constitute a made up religion and you'll mislead yourself and everyone else.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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There's more than one way to parse a "but if."
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The prayer for life is never answered. Ultimately all living entities experience death; it is the inevitable distinguished thing. If Christian prayer worked there would be 2000 year old men who would testify to the veracity of such prayer,
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jstan
climber
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Werner:
I structured the dialog along the lines you and I learned in plane geometry. Four hundred years before christ the Greeks created the process for mathematical proof that we use today. The "but if" prefaced something that all parties to the discussion had accepted. The words were used to make clear the presence of an essential contradiction.
The dialog was also structured entirely to eliminate all inclination by either party to confuse in the hopes of scoring points. Go-B did his part like the real trooper he is.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I wish Juan was still here living and posting.
He seemed like a very thoughtful and nice person.
I miss him.
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WBraun
climber
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The presence of an essential contradiction.
Yes excellent Jstan.
We have now come to an incredible crux.
Since God created us in his image we must have some independence although not infinitesimal.
Thus through our limited independent free will we can choose and he desires to see where we so want to go.
Otherwise there would be no meaning to unlimited and thus no such thing as ever fresh, meaning, (unconditional pure love) ....
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jstan
climber
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Werner:
So you say God is conducting an experiment and accepting failure when God has the power to assure success?
He is all-knowing so he already knows the result of the experiment.
There is no reason to perform an experiment, provided god is well meaning.
Are we challenging his intention now?
The bible is naught but a deception?
But why would god deceive? He is all-powerful and needs no deception to achieve what he wants.
When a god is all powerful, what he wants JUST IS.
That's what I meant when I said we place a huge burden on a god when we imagine they are all-powerful.
Whatever exists around us - is exactly what that god wants.
Pretty grim implications, Eh?
"Free will" was dreamed up relatively recently when the challenge raised here first arose, I don't know. Less than a thousand years ago?
Does it wash? I guess it washes if I can be burned at the stake when some Schmoo decides I need to go.
Is this where we want to go again?
It really comes down to a simple question.
What does imagining a god is all-powerful do for us? We dreamed this up after all..
Why did we dream it up?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Cheers, we'all got each other think'n!
Thanks Brothers!
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WBraun
climber
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There's no experiment except ours.
There's no deception as he instructs the correct method always before one acts.
Just as the child who wants to stick his finger in the moving fan and is adamant to do so.
Out of love you let him.
But first you instruct him of the consequences.
Then still he insists.
So you pull the plug and and fan will have slowed down enough to provide only the required action so he can learn.
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jstan
climber
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What you say cannot be challenged if you do one thing.
Agree that god is not all-powerful.
Given that, all manner of twistings and turnings are no longer necessary. And a lot of what we see around us also begins to make sense.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes, God can be challenged.
You can challenge him, but you will fail ultimately, other wise you would be God, Supreme.
God is all powerful.
If you can't understand that, then that will be your ultimate search as to why.
That is critical thinking not that you blindly believe.
One must have complete practical understanding, why this is so ....
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jstan
climber
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Werner, as I have said many times I have yet to see any real data on earth suggesting a god has done anything here.
If you were to pray hard and document both your prayer and that you wished to grow an additional appendage, when you had grown the desired appendage I would listen up. I would however suggest we do an experiment with people all over the world praying to different gods asking for an additional appendage. Even were only a portion of these people to grow that for which they had asked, you would find a lot of people becoming very interested.
I am trying to help the people who believe a god exists. God does not need to be all-powerful. Indeed I am amazed god agreed to take that job. People need only look about and see all the mayhem around us, to begin to wonder just what kind of all-powerful god they have got.
Being all-powerful is just not a good way to go.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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What's wrong with seeing God as all powerful but also self restraining? Like a martial artist who could kill with one blow but never strikes the first blow no matter how provoked? It's not a way that I think about God but I'm just saying......
To me, rather than worry about God and make 2,000 cc. naked ape brain statements about the infinite and eternal, it makes more sense to me to look within and ask how I can align myself with the principles of nature and later, how I can operate at the high end of human potential. This puts the burden on me rather than God (in Asia it's called paying attention to your karma), and allows me to use the reasoning powers I have rather than relying on a book.
I understand that some people like the structure of a book or an institution or the logical process. When I think of God however, I think of mystery, love, and beauty, not logic ??
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jstan
climber
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"What's wrong with seeing God as all powerful but also self restraining?"
Not a thing. Since god is self restraining( to your knowledge) the power will never be used. If it is never going actually to be used, then you are imagining it for your own purposes.
That was my question. Why do people want to believe their god is all-powerful?
There has to be a reason.
Is it just a matter of "My rabbit is bigger than your rabbit!"
(I know that would not be Jan's reason.)
Jan's next paragraph cuts to the heart of what we all try to work toward every day. Some like to think a "god" is traveling that road beside them. Others, not so much.
Same difference.
The proof is in the pudding.
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F
Then don't search. Be done with it. Simple as that.
There's no God according to you and all those who align themselves with such a belief.
Instead you keep wasting your time trying to convince yourself you're right and the go-bees of the world are all wrong.
You're the same as them only on the other side of the coin.
How stupid is that .....
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jstan
climber
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I'll try.
God has been on both sides of just about every war that has been fought. People go into these things convinced their all-powerful god will pull them out if it goes badly.
I am not arguing against war here. In a war both sides put everything they have onto the table.
When they do this it is best if people are thinking clearly.
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WBraun
climber
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Yes
Many people pray in war time and other times for various reasons.
When those prayers are not answered in the way they want then they sometimes become atheists.
God is not ones order supplier ever .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Agreed jstan.
This goes along with the philosophy that there is a God whom we can know by looking at the workings of the universe, including the life on this planet (the Prime Mover scientist's God if they have one) and then putting ourselves in tune with it.
We don't ask God to help us but rather ask how we can align ourselves with this natural order in the best possible way (and I would argue war is not the best possible way). We help ourselves by acting in harmony with nature/God and even improving on it if our motivation is compassion rather than Darwinian tooth and claw.
Actually I think that is what Gobee is trying to say, it's just that he relies on a particular book rather than nature, his own feelings, reasoning, meditation or science??
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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it seems we don't understand
language is composed of word symbols representing what we understand
so if we don't understand, why should we expect words to provide adequate explanation?
granted it is very interesting to speculate and discuss
or otherwise, since important mysteries are very uncomfortable; to seize upon unfounded assumptions and thus blindly build a concept of reality based upon them
perhaps the word 'god' is a placeholder for aspects of reality that are not understood
it's all about awareness
and we have much to learn
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jstan
climber
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Virtually every person will do that with which they have been successful and comfortable with in the past. Sometimes this works in the daily struggle we make each day to become better. Sometimes it does not.
It is always essential to admit someone may well be right, when that is the case. But the receipt of such should never be a goal. The goal is always to focus as clearly as one can on the center. On the core.
The core I am trying to focus on here is that we do ourselves great disservice when we expect more of a god than we ourselves are able to deliver. You meet a god of love - with love. You meet a forgiving god - with forgiveness.
We do not need a god more powerful than ourselves.
Edit:
The satisfaction one gets from believing in a god depends critically upon one also believing that god is all-powerful. That is what I am hearing. Otherwise why the insistence?
Desire for power is at the root of belief then. Very substantial evidence exists for this over the millennia but one yet hopes.
Very sad.
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WBraun
climber
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We do not need a god more powerful than ourselves.
How would you know ...... ?
Material Nature which is the inferior external energy of God is still more powerful than ourselves than what to speak of the Lord himself.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons' - Times Online
http://www.timesonline.co.uk
Dolphins have been declared the world’s second most intelligent creatures after humans, with scientists suggesting they are so bright that they should be treated as “non-human persons”.
we are not the only intelligent people
look how long it took us just to give the vote to women of our own species
my perceptive son was nearly drummed out of grade school for insisting on defending the mice people
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MH2
climber
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go-B:
"Cheers, we'all got each other think'n!
Thanks Brothers!"
Amen to that, brother go-B.
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jstan
climber
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Thanks for the Einstein link Tony. In slightly different words Einstein says, below, what I have been trying get at.
“Why do you write to me ‘God should punish the English’? I have no close connection to either one or the other. I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of His children for their numerous stupidities, for which only He Himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only His nonexistence could excuse Him.”
Albert Einstein, letter to Edgar Meyer, a Swiss colleague, January 2, 1915; from Alice Calaprice, ed., The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2000, p. 201.
Probably useful to note here that WWI was fast approaching in 1915 when Einstein made this observation. War and gods always seem to be joined at the hip.
Becoming persuaded god does not exist is not the central point however. The central point is to cease giving powers to that entity that are belied just by reading a newspaper. If one wants to have a god, take care to construct a credible one.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Well, I would like to see the concept of "free will" discussed.
This seems to be the core defense of why the Guy in the Sky refuses to
intervene and stop the endless torture, murder, and suffering.
How does prayer work exactly?
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jstan
climber
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Norton:
It is a very old subject and if you dig into it, it is indistinguishable from a supertopo thread that has been going on for thousands of years.
The whole issue of whether beings can have the power to make their own decisions, and face their own consequences, in the presence of an all-powerful god misses the point.
If the god is all powerful then that god created people who were designed to make bad decisions.
If you make an all-powerful god, no matter how one uses words, that god cannot be absolved of the the responsibility for what he created. Empty verbiage.
No one has come up with a reason why we even want all-powerful gods. If this goes on without being addressed one has to conclude we don't wish to pull it out into the open.
It must be very ugly.
One might say in this reluctance we are working hand in glove with
Satan.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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re: "free" will or "free will"
That was/is my work, Norton. The facts are, many people myself included have worked it out already. Pages ago, I tried to get you guys in dialog about so-called "free will" - its different forms and definitions - the role language plays in the bruhahah, etc. - to see what might spring from it - but to no avail. Discourse on the thread quickly lapsed back into chapter and verse. Tsk.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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re: solution to free will
jstan-
Step one on getting a grip on the subject of free will is to quit mixing it up with "God" particularly Jehovah. -Which is just what the theologians (of Abrahamic theology) want you to do.
Traditional theology brings with it a complicated mix (of story and subject entities). Set the whole shebang aside. Science provides all the understanding one needs today to come to terms with "free will" in the context of ability, powers, of living things.
But those without the education and familiarity with the subjects will continue unabated to mix them up, muck them up, all together.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Oh, that tired old statement...
"the debate of X is hundreds to thousands of years old"
plays right into the hands of religious leaders and their flock, too, who desire to persist in the bygone status quo. If you want to make progress, or share it, try to leave it behind, try to reframe the subjects and issues for once. Moreover, try to think strategically. As there are different parties, sides, in these ongoing battles of ideas and beliefs.
It's a new age now. Because of the sciences, science education. All sorts of 1000 year-old ideas and superstitions and models (mental and belief models) for how things work have fallen by the wayside.
So, too, it already has for so-called "free" will. Only those persisting (stuck) in the Abrahamic narrative or those who don't know the subject (e.g., through study) do not know this.
.....
From another perspective, only the inertia of pop culture (umpteen millions in biomass, tonage, now the world over) keeps us from gaining the higher understanding more quickly. Tsk.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Let's face it, I think even some of you "atheists" relish the Abrahamic narrative, where would you be without it? Naked? Unroped? Cold? Directionless?
Nothing to frame your "atheism" against.
Nothing to anchor your "atheism" against. Untethered. Unroped.
Oh, the horror!
"I think even some of you "atheists" relish the Abrahamic narrative..."
I mean, really, how quirky is that?
I mean, is it not MORE exciting to carry on, if not rant, against Satan and demons and succubi and those who persist in a three-layer-cake version of the world than to dig deep on the subjects of free will, for instance, and mortality? -With the aim to get a full grip on them (and other subjects) and then to move forward? Are not the subjects of the Abrahamic bibles way more colorful, dramatic, etc., esp with all the images pertaining to God and Satan and Jesus on internet Google now available to post up. Let's get real. Lets face it. It's human nature, here.
Food for thought.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Here it is:
(1) The world is a orderly system obeying mechanistic rules which (2) can be discovered, figured out, (3) even appreciated, valued, (4) by those who have the courage, imagination, and persistence to go on searching for them.
(adapted from Tony's link to Einstein stuff)
How succinct is that! ;)
.....
But I loved this one:
“I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.”
Einstein
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jstan
climber
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Good to hear that HFC. Hope you don't mind my addressing you in the familiar.
To understand Abrahamaic stories, at all, I think you have to realize living in the middle east 2000 years ago was, in some ways. like living in East LA. You can be walking down the street and someone like a member of a gang can cut you down for no reason with "justice" never even being attempted. The "wrong place at the wrong time" story. Or your landlord drives your family into the street for no cause. A whim or he found someone who would provide more profit.
People must have been desperate for some way to make sense of their lives and also desperate for the "belief" someone powerful was interested in "justice."
As we descend even further into a corporatocracy even the formation of a nobility here in the US becomes possible. If it has not already happened.
Absent a rededication of our people to critical thinking
we may only guess at what the future will bring.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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100 per cent agree.
I cannot tell you the number of times over several decades now I've appreciated the Abrahamic narrative for its range of abilities in addressing human needs.
On many levels, it IS the "greatest story ever told".
On many levels, it IS the greatest life strategy - or system of life strategies - ever worked out.
IMO.
.....
But now it is time to step out, to move past it, to move on. In the interest of 21st century adaptation. In the interest of best practices in the practice of 21st century living.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Along the lines of Fructose's thinking, Anthropology (and Science Fiction) is full of examples of societies who suddenly encounter a civilization with a more advanced technology and a different belief system and can't handle it and disintegrate as a viable society. Just think of what happened to most Native Americans who somehow managed to survive. Some joined nativistic, messianic or cargo cults, many retreated to drugs and alcohol.
Of course after 150 or more years of just surviving, Native culture is on the rebound and they are doing it as I believe our larger society must, by bringing back those elements of the past that worked well and accepting the best of the new society. They are also adept at understanding the difference between science and symbol. They haven't revived the Sun Dances again because they believe anymore that if they don't do the dances the sun will disappear, but because of the sense of purpose, community solidarity, and satisfaction it gives them to have outlasted the BIA, the boarding schools and the missionaries, and still be here to celebrate. Some go to both sun dances and church.
I think something similar must happen in our society. Right now we are at the phase of nativism, messianism, and cargo cults on the one hand and a massively drugged society on the other. At some point if we are to survive, we too will have to figure out what of our past is worth saving and how to integrate that with the new scientific understanding, particularly of neurobiology. The new integration will never satisfy the hard core science types, but should result in a society that they at least feel more comfortable with.
This is not just an American phenomenon. Everywhere I go in Asia, people are wrestling with the same issues of how to reconcile tradition and modernity. The big advantage over here however, is that unlike the Abrahamic religions, the Asian ones never made exclusivist truth claims. That is a huge plus in the process.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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(1) "The world is a orderly system obeying mechanistic rules which (2) can be discovered, figured out, (3) even appreciated, valued, (4) by those who have the courage, imagination, and persistence to go on searching for them."
Aint going to happen:
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." - Hebrews 11:3
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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That's good Go-B, that's good!
Preach!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Then just follow the book of goodness for the rest of life, if you have a question, you frantically search for the appropriate verse, paste it some where, and you are saved from having to think on your own."
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind (change your way of thinking...why?---->), that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." - Romans 12:1-18
You see Dr. F,
God is not saying not to "think on your own" but to take your "gift," which he has given to you, by His grace (what you don't deserve because of your inherent sinful nature), and to serve the church effectively. Look at your responses and contrast them against what these verses are saying. You're approach and intentions are wrong is all. You're using your talents for the wrong purpose. No one is saying to stop "thinking." But God is saying to stop searching in "vain" (for nothing). And when you think about it, that's what all men's knowledge, without a purpose for God, is....for nothing, eternity without Him:
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15
If you're willing to take that chance, well, then, that's your choice. But we Christians are commanded to go and search for the lost, save and baptize them, just as Christ and other Christians did:
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." - Matthew 28:18-20
Praying for you Dr. F
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MH2
climber
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I too like the aptness many of the Einstein quotes to jstan's exchange with go-B.
An all-knowing all-powerful Supreme Being does not seem compatible with what we understand of quantum indeterminacy. And there is the caveat that a Supreme Being would also be incomprehensible, which seems downright unfair given all the other hard-to-grasp items in the job description of a Supreme Being. So maybe we must cut the Supreme Being, if Such there Be, some slack on the issue of compassion and mercy.
Anyway, there has been a lot of sweat spent in puzzling over omniscience and omnipotence. We observe that some people know more than others so we can make an inductive leap to the possibility of knowing everything.
To some, a Being who knows all prevents free will in the sense that before putting on your shirt in the morning you could choose one or another shirt. The Being knows what you are going to do, so the choice is determined and not freely made by you. Others say the Being simply knows what free choice you made.
Other discussions:
http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=271762
http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/52599-does-omniscience-limit-free-will/
From the above
I like the idea that multiple universes could be God's storage media for keeping track of what is going on in this universe, and the idea that although there is no way to decide if there is anything God-like out there (or in here, if you prefer), theologists who propose that God cannot be understood by Man nevertheless usually assign other attributes to God and that these attributes are the 'soft underbelly' of religion; statements that are open to question.
And a strange claim from a Wikipedia entry on omniscience: that having more than one omniscient omnipotent Being per universe is not allowed under quantum rules. Therefore...
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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MH2, at least it appears that you recongnize that there is a "God".
That's good.
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jstan
climber
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"theologists who propose that God cannot be understood by Man"
This is one of the self-apparent failures we force onto ourselves when we say god is all-powerful. If god is all-powerful then god created all the horrors we see all around us. What kind of god would create that?
We try to escape this by pleading we do not understand god. God causes us injury but due to a plan we cannot know.
Here, by implication we now assume god is NOT all-powerful. If god were all-powerful he would have made a plan that did not injure me.
We use sloppy thinking to have our cake and eat it too.
All for nothing. When has god's all-powerfulness done something in the real world that did you good?
So his all-powerfulness works only in our minds.
It is an imagining.
Imaginings are OK as long as they do not destroy our ability to use our minds properly.
This particular imagining is very destructive.
Almost without exception people chant to themselves that god will rescue them with his immense power as they put their neighbors to the sword.
If I were inclined to speak in biblical terms I would say the idea of an all-powerful god
is the work of Satan.
But I have seen no evidence for a Satan just as I have seen no evidence for a god.
What have I seen?
I see that each and every one of us is our own unique mixture of good and evil.
And when we let imaginings degrade our ability to use our minds, the balance tips precariously to the side of evil.
Seen another way:
If you benefit by having a god in your life, be understanding and be kind with him.
Don't insist he be all-powerful.
Give him a break.
For God's sake.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but can't this problem be avoided with the idea that God is all powerful but chooses to let the universe evolve on its own after the current laws of physics are put in place?
Or another possibility is that with multiple universes to manage, God sometimes hears prayers in this one and sometimes doesn't? Omniscient in any one universe but not in all at the same time?
Or that depending on our individual karma and state of consciousness, our prayers do or don't get through, but the burden is on us?
And if even by chance, something happens to save our lives and we caused it, we give thanks to God because it feels unseemly to thank ourselves when we were stupid enough to get in that life endangering position to begin with?
Of course these are all eastern ideas, not Abrahamic.
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jstan
climber
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Jan:
"Maybe I'm missing something here, but can't this problem be avoided with the idea that God is all powerful but chooses to let the universe evolve on its own after the current laws of physics are put in place?"
I have been placed in the position of having absolute and total power. Can I then say, "Uh. That's nice, but I am not going to use it"?
If you have power. You have power. That is why the framers of our constitution set a four year term of office for the chief executive. Going in, its end was already marked.
My understanding is the idea of parallel universes is a hypothesis, a trial solution, an anzatz. It is not something we place in our list of theorems and so are ready to build upon it.
Pate:
Thanks.
I am doing something new here. The idea is that a lot of the damage we do is caused not by our having a personal god. The damage is caused by our making completely unreasonable demands upon that god. Since the demands are unreasonable, we end up doing unreasonable things.
Rather like the climber who worships climbing but who ends up splatting.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Why do so many people believe in God?
Because we want so badly to believe that life goes on somehow after death.
That's why, pure and simple.
And so man created religion to provide the private rituals that reinforce
the notion that life after death is possible ONLY through indoctrination
and ritualistic practice of THAT particular religion.
There would be NO reason to believe in a god if there was not the hard wired
desire to believe in life after death. Take that out, no need for a god belief.
Sh#t happens, deal with it.
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jstan
climber
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"Sh#t happens, deal with it."
Something like this is probably going to be the new eastern thought of which Jan speaks. And she is right. It will not be possible here in the West.
Long before Pavlov, religionists had discovered positive reinforcement as a means of training animals to be obedient. Hope of perpetual life is, as Norton points out, one of the hooks used by religionists. The problem is, there is no perpetual life cookie to be given us when we are obedient. That is where scripture comes in. Using extensive training beginning at a very early age it is possible for a person to feel some strange sense of reward on hearing a passage from scripture for the hundred and eleventy thousandths time.
And there is your cookie.
Absent clarity of thought here in the West in all probability we are now entering into one or more centuries of Eastern primacy, as it once existed in Alexandria. A friend just back from three months in China told of a train ride. The train is supported from above and travelled at 200 mph, with hardly a sound. On a test run that same line has travelled at 300 mph. Cost to go 100 miles? 80 Yuan. About $10.
Here in the West, we are back to murder as a popular mode of communication.
After yesterday, tell me I am wrong.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oh but "free will" killed them, not a god.
God always gets a free pass, never held responsible for anything.
Because you don't want to say anything that could hurt your chances of
getting to heaven.
Better not think or say anything to piss her off.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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einstein is an interesting figure, not only for his tremendous pioneering in science, but at the personal level, frank about his thoughts and beliefs, and humble as well. he knew lots of people were looking to him for more than he was prepared to give. i sympathize with his agnosticism: keep the question open, it's a big question, don't slam the door on it. even einstein could be mistaken in his own bailiwick, physics, and he realized that.
having recently finished hilbert by constance reid, a book recommended here by ed hartouni, i've come to conjecture a few things about scientific personalities. hilbert and einstein have some interesting similarities. totally absorbed in their work, both made lousy fathers. einstein had his three children, one of them mysteriously lost, in a first, chaotic marriage. he subsequently found marital happiness--it's interesting to observe, as charles darwin did--in marriage to his first cousin.
not being judgmental here--hilbert and einstein, and darwin for that matter, were attractive people and i'm sure we'd all have delighted to have known them personally. but their lives became engrossed in a single mental dimension, if you will, to the neglect of other potential. here on this thread, we seem to have focused, broadly, on the realm of the spiritual. on other threads, we've crossed swords on subjects like the paranormal. i would suggest that science, for all its glories, is not leading us to a spiritual destiny. our religions, by the same token, don't do a very good job of it either. but i think it's important to keep sight of a common goal, and perhaps conclude that the big adventure is really still ahead for the human race.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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jstan
I am doing something new here. The idea is that a lot of the damage we do is caused not by our having a personal god. The damage is caused by our making completely unreasonable demands upon that god. Since the demands are unreasonable, we end up doing unreasonable things.
Tony
i would suggest that science, for all its glories, is not leading us to a spiritual destiny. our religions, by the same token, don't do a very good job of it either. but i think it's important to keep sight of a common goal, and perhaps conclude that the big adventure is really still ahead for the human race.
Both worth repeating and remembering.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)"
This was the original post and after 5000+ posts, it is finally clear that this question, whether intended or not, really only applies to those that "believe in God." Sure, it's a open forum and opinions will continue, but how does a person answer that question that doesn't "believe in God?" What basis do they have other than unbelief?
Let's revitalizing the original question, "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)" by hearing from the select few of you believers and let us fellowship "one to another"!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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So, so beautiful and rich go-B! It makes so much sense that I am in awe of God even more. It was a long time of hurt, and hurting others but in the last four years I now understand more of who I am and my purpose in life than I ever was taught in the fourty five years prior. Thank God for the small taste of his Word!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Let's revitalizing the original question, "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)" by hearing from the select few of you believers and let us fellowship "one to another"!
This is the real problem in my opinion - that certain types of believers automatically assume that other believers will think and feel the same way they do about the subject and naturally want to fellowship.
There are many views of God even among those who base their belief on the Bible. Otherwise we wouldn't have over 500 denominations of Protestants alone.
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jstan
climber
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"that certain types of believers automatically assume that other believers will think and feel the same way they do about the subject"
And if they do not we have a "clash of civilizations"
Lots of death.
Very little civilization.
The individuals on both sides get the pleasure of rapture.
I'm guessing most of the suicide bombers go out in a blaze of rapture.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 10, 2011 - 10:19am PT
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BRIAN ENO
"Bone Bomb"
My
Body
So
Thin
So
Tired
Beaten
For
Years
Ploughshare
To
Bomb
So
Hard
Bone
Bomb
Bone
Bomb
Bone
Bomb
My
Town
So
Dusty
So
Dry
Buildings
Pushed
Over
Lives
Heaped
Together
Young
Girls
Dreaming
Of
Beautiful
Deaths
Popstar
Pictures
Above
Their
Beds
Above
Their
Heads
Troops
Everything
Stolen
Except
My
Bones
Now
I
Am
Only
Bone
I
Waited
For
Peace
And
Here
Is
My
Peace
Here
In
This
Still
Last
Moment
Of
My
Life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxY6NLVQaPc
"Bone Bomb" was inspired by a newspaper story about a Palestinian girl who becomes a suicide bomber. On the same page there was an article by a Israeli doctor who explained that wounds from the scenes of suicide bombs are often caused by tiny fragments of the bomber's bones, which embed themselves like shrapnel in the people around.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 10, 2011 - 11:07am PT
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"Free will" means critical thinking.
Independent freedom to use and develop your God given intelligence.
Atheists are the drones that rely on their own defective mental speculations to think.
It must be this? No maybe like this? No later that's not how it's like. Oh wait there's new data now it's wrong again so it must be like this? And so on.
Spinning wheels must go round ... :-)
There is "Perfection"
The word is in your dictionary even.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 10, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
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Werner you describe exactly the process by which we discovered the earth actually orbits the sun and not the other way around.
And yes the dictionary does include words that describe things that may not even exist.
honesty
integrity
honor
courage
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 10, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
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"Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)"
This was the original post and after 5000+ posts, it is finally clear that this question, whether intended or not, really only applies to those that "believe in God." Sure, it's a open forum and opinions will continue, but how does a person answer that question that doesn't "believe in God?" What basis do they have other than unbelief?
Let's revitalizing the original question, "Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)" by hearing from the select few of you believers and let us fellowship "one to another"! Ummm... Actually, many, if not most, people who do not believe in God did at some time in their past... Myself included. Thus, atheists have a unique perspective from both sides of the fence, having lived on each. Also note that the VAST MAJORITY of atheists and agnostics know much more about religion(s) than do the VAST MAJORITY of the faithful.
So... Given that, who would have a more "informed [not emotional] opinion"?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 10, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
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WC... It's just another attempt to dismiss everything that doesn't agree with his world view in one fell swoop.
A better way to say it to ID, since he uses this line of flawed logic when it suits HIM is this:
How can you have any opinion about "Allah", when you have convinced yourself that it is a different God, and thus don't believe in him?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 10, 2011 - 02:21pm PT
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It almost seems the outlandish things said these days are just an attempt to be noticed.
People seem starved for attention.
In earlier generations you tried to avoid being noticed. Being noticed resulted in your being assigned something more on which you had to work,
Edit:
Indeed if this is true it is only a small leap to conclude one of the root causes for the approaching failure of representative democracy is
child labor law.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 10, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
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reminds me of the case of lou gottlieb's estate.
lou was the bass player of the limelighters, a successful 60s folksinging group. he also ran an extensive hippie-style commune somewhere on the fringe of the bay area. lou was a wit and a scholar, in addition to being a great singing and songwriting talent. when he died, he willed the entire estate to god. as i understand it, the matter made it to the california supreme court--i guess everyone was taking god seriously up to that point. but the supremes wouldn't allow the will to be probated because, they said, god could not be contacted for assessment of property taxes upon taking possession of the land.
think about it, fellas. that's a pretty lofty authority refusing to take god seriously.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 10, 2011 - 09:31pm PT
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 10, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 10, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 11, 2011 - 07:32am PT
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*The Supreme Court swears by the God of the Holy Bible(Old & New Testament).
Yea, so what? That is an argument from authority, but...
Remember this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison_(politician)
After elected to Congress, he swore in on a copy of the Qur-an once owned by Thomas Jefferson (remember him?),
NOT the Holy Bible.
Now fill in the blank, and see if you get the relevance:
"Congress makes the laws that are enforced by the ___."
Or, here are some Presidents that weren't "sworn in" with the Bible:
-John Quincy Adams
-Lyndon Johnson
-Theodore Roosevelt
-Franklin Pierce
-Herbert Hoover
So, again, what's your point?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jan 11, 2011 - 10:10am PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:17am PT
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Dr. F-
So what's your view of God as metaphor? as an atheist; or what's your opinion, your stance, on continuing to use "God" idioms or metaphors? -As a part of speech or conversation. Just curious.
e.g., "From your lips to God's ear."
e.g., "He ain't got the brains God gave a squirrel."
e.g., "There but for the grace of the Gods go I."
Is this okay? weak, lame? what? Just curious as to your take on it
.....
I'm trying to think of a couple more favorite God figures of speech. But they escape me right now. But there are many.
cf: Use of "God", "Mother" Nature, the "Grim Reaper"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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Fructose, what's up the concept of Original Sin?
Isn't this one of the core things, especially Christianity?
The idea that new born babies come out as "sinners" and only through the
indoctrination into the rituals of X religion can they be saved from evil
and have a shot at a pleasurable afterlife eternity.
Do religions other than Christianity have original sin as a base tenant?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:25am PT
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God damn it: is used a lot as a god metaphor thing
or teenage girls' favorite: OH MY GOD
God help us!
There go I for the grace of god
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:25am PT
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It was the Abrahamic religion's story element for explaining a number of things. All through one neat tidy package. Right?
.....
Norton, I'm out the door right now. For my first ever colonoscopy. Wish me luck! Hahaha!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 11, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
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Norton-
Original Sin was an idea first taught by St. Augustine three hundred years after the founding of Christianity. It was never accepted by the Eastern Orthodox, African or Middle Eastern Christians. Later on, Protestants rejected it as well.
One of the things that always makes me nervous about the modern day fundamentalists is their emphasis on man's sinfulness. It's as though they were emulating Augustine, an odd stance for a group of people who don't care much otherwise, for Catholic doctrine.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 11, 2011 - 01:13pm PT
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More idiocy by the Westboro band of haters Can't you just feel the love of Jesus from these fine Christians?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 11, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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After a (very) little research following Jan’s input I find:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo#Original_sin”
"Augustine of Hippo (/????st?n/;[1] Latin: Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis)[2] (November 13, 354
– August 28, 430), also known as Augustine, St. Augustine, St. Austin,[3] Blessed Augustine, or
St. Augustine the Blessed,[4] was Bishop of Hippo Regius (present-day Annaba, Algeria). He was
a Latin-speaking philosopher and theologian who lived in the Roman Africa Province. His writings
were very influential in the development of Western Christianity.
Augustine, a Latin Church Father, is one of the most important figures in the development of
Western Christianity. He "established anew the ancient Faith" (conditor antiquae rursum fidei),
according to his contemporary, Jerome.[5] In his early years he was heavily influenced by
Manichaeism and afterward by the Neo-Platonism of Plotinus.[6] After his conversion to
Christianity and baptism (387), Augustine developed his own approach to philosophy and
theology, accommodating a variety of methods and different perspectives.[7] He believed that
the grace of Christ was indispensable to human freedom, and he framed the concepts of original sin and just war.
When the Western Roman Empire was starting to disintegrate, Augustine developed the concept
of the Church as a spiritual City of God (in a book of the same name), distinct from the material
Earthly City.[8] His thought profoundly influenced the medieval worldview. Augustine's City of
God was closely identified with the church, the community that worshipped God.[9]”
End excerpt
It would appear this person, born in present day Algeria, was converted to xity while aged 33 at
a tumultous time when the Western Roman Empire was collapsing. The above work also states
this person was in conflict with the Pelaguisian school having quite different views on the
enterprise. In the process he “developed his own approach to philosophy and theology.”
Presumably following his own lights and the demands of the day.
Bottom line? Many of the concepts embodied in the christian enterprise were developed
independently more than three centuries after christ by a person who converted at middle age
and whose creations were developed in response to the environment that existed more than
1500 years ago.
Edit:
I need to go back and find out what he did prior to his conversion.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jan 11, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
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Can't you just feel the love of Jesus from these fine Christians?
Seems to me this is as good a reason as any for some sentient deity to make its presence & intentions known. Or perhaps it has and the message is "These are the kinds of people that exemplify my true followers"...
If that's the case, a friend of the devil is a friend of mine...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 11, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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jstan-
I had not made that connection with Augustine before but you're right and that is more intelligible probably to the average person than nativisitic, messianic cargo cults but here's how they apply.
Nativism - the religious idea that if we go back to the ways of our ancestors, then life will again be good as it was then. The Ghost Dance movement is an example of this and I would argue, fundamentalism in all its forms.
Messianic cults look to a singular person to save them from the situation. Oddly enough this seems to particularly afflict Americans who supposedly believe in equality.
Cargo cults arise when a superior civilization showers gifts and then disappears again as happened to Pacific Islands occupied by the Americans during and after WWII. There are people still hacking out runways in the jungles so the big silver birds will have a place to land and disgorge the abundance of the military BX once again.I personally think all of America is on a cargo cult mentality at the moment, now that the easy days are over.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 11, 2011 - 11:12pm PT
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Jan:
Perhaps it would be unsurprising if we were in all three simultaneously. We have adored celebrity for some decades now and as things get progressively worse the "good old days" will come up frequently.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 12, 2011 - 01:05am PT
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Exodus 20:7, “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 12, 2011 - 12:57pm PT
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augustine came shortly after the nicean councils and the romanization of christianity. it's difficult to reconstruct that time--the western roman empire was supposedly collapsing and constantine seemed to turn to the christian religion as a way of extending the empire. with that came a real religious fascism, the stamping out of doctrinal quarrels and imposition of orthodoxy. i think christianity has been a nightmare ever since.
augustine is quite the figure--his longsuffering mother, good old santa monica, prayed and prayed for him and eventually he came around from his philandering and hereticizing and got to be mr. true blue jesus man, and after that a big shot bishop. read his books--he's got all the answers.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 12, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
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While participating in a conversation about God and religion amongst Albert Einstein, Max Plank, Wolfgang Pauli, and Werner Heisenberg, Paul Dirac said: I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way. What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards—in heaven if not on earth—all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 12, 2011 - 05:27pm PT
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I'm for it: keeping "God" as a metaphor, idiom or figure of speech. Consider "keeping one's fingers crossed" for comparison. Or, "Yeah, the Grim Reaper didn't catch us today, thank God!"
.....
Keep your fingers crossed... that our descendants will have the wherewithal to carry on without fossil fuels because cheap easy energy, after 200-plus glorious years, is near its end.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 12, 2011 - 05:39pm PT
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Norton-
re: Original Sin
My take on "Original Sin" is that it's got a dozen or more different interpretations (incl. the so-called "First Sin" by Adam and Eve) all of which in the end - by today's standards - muck up otherwise clear waters having to do with dystropy (bad turn events), why bad things happen, evil, disease, illnesses, shortcomings, flaws, etc. - the mucking up of which much of today's religious leadership and community of theologians and educated traditional theological devotees just love. Because it gives them wiggle room, everlasting work or jobs, or simply because they just love to wallow in it.
Soon new frameworks will emerge - new frameworks of thinking, new frameworks of belief - that will open up new territory and landscapes which in turn will warrant setting aside all that old stuff - the whole shebang of it. In one fell swoop. Unless for some reason you don't want to, like because you want to study the early or ancient bronze age stuff. Like astrology or witchcraft.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 12, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
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OMG.
"God is he scary looking."
Chris Matthews on the mugshot of Loughner.
We are SUCH a function of our genes. All the way around. Aren't we? Case in point:
Or...
Who would YOU rather meet up with on a cold dark winter night deep in the sierra?
I say...
Sometimes Nature's a cruel Mother (or Mistress).
Food for thought.
There but for the grace of (a) fate, (b) Mother Nature, (c) God, (d) all the above, go I.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 12, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
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Hey Gobee, since you like to quote Exodus, you like this one from the word of God?
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Seriously Gobee, surely you can agree that God would not be so petty as to tell parents to kill their own children?
Surely, you can agree that a mentally screwed up, ignorant man some 2000 years ago heard voices
in his head and concluded that god was talking to him and to write this down for all God's followers
throughout eternity to believe.
ALL of the bible is NOT from the word of God, is it Gobee?
But of course you would say YES, it is ALL the word of God and who are we to question it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 12, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
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re: special case
My view: I say Go-B and ID4Jesus and thaDood (Trip7) qualify as a "special case" - let them have their narrative ("Under Jehovah") and let's move on. To the new areas awaiting, the pioneers we are. FA's await...
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:38pm PT
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HFCS -- Playing with words again ^^^^
When the lightning strikes, all your mundane made up speculative words and ideas become instantly useless ...
Just as the man in the desert cries water and that word alone will never satisfy nor quench the thirst.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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OK, so where did the universe come from? what happened right before the Big Bang??
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:45pm PT
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" ... what happened right before the Big Bang??
Some guy lit the fuse .....
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 12, 2011 - 10:53pm PT
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When you subtract everything there is only God!
"special case"
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jan 12, 2011 - 11:23pm PT
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Hey Gobee, since you like to quote Exodus, you like this one from the word of God?
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Seriously Gobee, surely you can agree that God would not be so petty as to tell parents to kill their own children?
Surely, you can agree that a mentally screwed up, ignorant man some 2000 years ago heard voices
in his head and concluded that god was talking to him and to write this down for all God's followers
throughout eternity to believe.
ALL of the bible is NOT from the word of God, is it Gobee?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 13, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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When there ain't nothing, that something IS God!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jan 14, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
Nooooooooooo!!!!! Not gnashing of teeth! The horror!
Thanks Gob! Now I'm one more step further from believing your absurdist philosophy. Keep 'em coming!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 14, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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A couple days ago I posted some material dealing with the rise of St. Augustine who created a number of current christian beliefs and practices. He lived during the fourth century at the time the Western Roman Empire was in decline. Now a tree ring study that concerns climate changes of that day.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12186245
Science & Environment
14 January 2011 Last updated at 12:19 ET
Roman rise and fall 'recorded in trees'
By Mark KinverScience and environment reporter, BBC News
An extensive study of tree growth rings says there could be a link between the rise and fall of past civilisations and sudden shifts in Europe's climate.
A team of researchers based their findings on data from 9,000 wooden artifacts from the past 2,500 years.
They found that periods of warm, wet summers coincided with prosperity, while political turmoil occurred during times of climate instability.
The findings have been published online by the journal Science.
"Looking back on 2,500 years, there are examples where climate change impacted human history," co-author Ulf Buntgen, a paleoclimatologist at the Swiss Federal Research Institute for Forest, Snow and Landscape, told the Science website.
The team capitalised on a system used to date material unearthed during excavations.
"Archaeologists have developed oak ring width chronologies from Central Europe that cover nearly the entire Holocene and have used them for the purpose of dating artefacts, historical buildings, antique artwork and furniture," they wrote.
"Chronologies of living and relict oaks may reflect distinct patterns of summer precipitation and drought."
The team looked at how weather over the past couple of centuries affected living trees' growth rings.
During good growing seasons, when water and nutrients are in plentiful supply, trees form broad rings, with their boundaries relatively far apart.
But in unfavourable conditions, such as drought, the rings grow in much tighter formation.
The researchers then used this data to reconstruct annual weather patterns from the growth rings preserved in the artefacts.
Once they had developed a chronology stretching back over the past 2,500 years, they identified a link with prosperity levels in past societies, such as the Roman Empire.
"Wet and warm summers occurred during periods of Roman and medieval prosperity. Increased climate variability from 250-600 AD coincided with the demise of the western Roman empire and the turmoil of the migration period," the team reported.
"Distinct drying in the 3rd Century paralleled a period of serious crisis in the western Roman empire marked by barbarian invasion, political turmoil and economic dislocation in several provinces of Gaul."
Dr Buntgen explained: "We were aware of these super-big data sets, and we brought them together and analyzed them in a new way to get the climate signal.
"If you have enough wood, the dating is secure. You just need a lot of material and a lot of rings."
End of report
I have been familiar with the road systems archeologists have studied in North Africa and the evidence that part of the world used to support a substantial civilization, unlike today.
Would be interesting to know whether the fall of that region and a redirection of christianity were all tied in to what happened to the climate. Forests are the first thing that goes when population becomes dense. And forests are the major mediator for ground water and the local disposition of incident solar energy.
Original sin may have been created to explain why people were being punished by a deteriorating climate. St. Augustine came out of the region we now call Algeria.
Fascinating!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Jan 14, 2011 - 03:36pm PT
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"I guess the only thing left to do is save your soul, whatever that means."
Royal Robbins - Movie, 180 degrees South
Sounds like Royal's heart has been touched. Glory to God!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 15, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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The rise and fall of Chinese dynasties has also been corelated with multi year failures of the monsoon which brought drought and famine, leading people to conclude that the emperor had lost his mandate from heaven.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 15, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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Jan, I think we are onto something.
Finger pointing is not a recent phenomenon.
Science is just a modern tool used to figure out where one needs to point.
Those who don't use science just have a list of favorite places they like to point.
No nasty experiments to do. And no chance of being surprised.
The human condition has finally been revealed.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:20am PT
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Forests are the first thing that goes when population becomes dense. And forests are the major mediator for ground water and the local disposition of incident solar energy.
jared diamond in his book collapse makes note of one place where they decided against this: japan, in the early 19th century. deforestation was becoming an obvious problem. it was checked by government decree. japan still keeps its forests and has been able to support a dense population alongside them.
japan is a wetter region, admittedly. the mediterranean is a different climate, and its deforestation came early. cutting forests seems to be in the european blood. when kaiser wilhelm ii went into exile in holland,
Much of his time was spent chopping wood (a hobby he discovered upon his arrival) and observing the life of a country gentleman. During his years in Doorn, he largely deforested his estate, the land only now beginning to recover.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 17, 2011 - 11:50am PT
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Tony-
At the same time the Japanese were reforesting their country, they were denuding Korea which was a Japanese colony then. Korea is just now beginning to recover.
Which reminds me, and jstan will like this too, in terms of fingerpointing. The Koreans believe that the Japanese planted metal stakes throughout their country to disturb the earth's chi energy and cause the Koreans no end of problems. A few years ago, the Korean government spent a lot of money to have people go around with metal detectors to find and remove them. A lot of them looked like metal survey stakes to me, but what do I know?
Anyway, it's one of those many things in Asia that I put in the "don't know" category. I don't know if the Japanese did it on purpose, if it was a type of psychological war they waged, if it's random chance. I also have no idea if the earth has acupuncture lines that can have their chi disrupted as so many in east Asia believe and what this might have to do with the earth's magnetism etc. I also don't know if this would have something to do with North Korea's continuing craziness. Something sure disrupted something up there. Screwed up chi makes as much sense as anything. And I do know this should all be testable by modern science.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
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Amazing how much stuff to learn shows up here.
When the Japanese were staking out Korea after the Sino Japanese War in 1910 I don't see why they would have made the 38th parallel a demarcation line. Since the phenomenon in North Korea is so unlike that of South Korea, barring evidence to the contrary, I am not inclined to accept the stake hypothesis.
Without a doubt an invader coming in and staking out my farm would be adequate to generate hatreds able to last hundreds of years.
Do you suppose homo sapiens will ever start including this when they calculate the present value of the war they are about to start?
I'll repeat a story about hatred.
On a caving trip in Virginia a farmer allowed us to sleep in his hay loft. Talking the next morning he mentioned that his grandfather had had to take all his cattle into the hills every time Phil Sheridan had made a trip down the Shenandoah.
When you do injury to someone, count on it. The children of that person's children will curse your grandchildren- daily.
Edit:
HFCS=Klimmer?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
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OMG. I thought everywhere knew about this already.
Chi disruption occurs NORTH of metal staking, chi enrichment occurs SOUTH of metal staking. BTW, a similar chi effect occurs with pyramid shapes, esp those containing metal, most of all Al. But here the positivity (enrichment of chi) is focused at center of pyramid. Those ancient Egyptian engineers were pretty smart, eh?
EDIT
This chi focusing of the pyramid (don't know about the metal staking) is also used to access the paranormal dimension. Tony might have insights in this area, too.
I have been wondering, too, is this why the Chinese have turned their attn to Egypt and the Sudan? Who really knows anything anymore. Agree. It's amazing how much stuff turns up on the Wild Wild Web.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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Aluminum does not conduct chi. Everyone knows that.
Maybe more stakes were planted in North Korea than in the south. Also they have a lot of iron ore up there, so it might have had a bigger effect.
Meanwhile, somebody better take a metal detector up to that UFO pyramid on Pike's Peak.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
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I have to ask. If there is more chi north of the 38th do you have to worry about chi squared up there?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:39pm PT
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You're asking a humanities and social science person about math ???
Meanwhile I just read over on the vocations thread that ydpl8s is an actual geophysicist who measures earth's magnetism, does calculations, and makes maps of it. Somebody should invite him/her to the discussion.
It's 3 am over here and I have to go to bed.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 12:58pm PT
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that, jstan, was a very very bad pun...
...go sit in the car with Mighty Hiker, that would be an appropriate punishment
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jstan
climber
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
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I have finally made the big time!!!!!!!
Don't you think for a moment I missed the italics.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
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Jan, I am a geophysicist that makes maps of the earth's magnetic field (in fact I'm analyzing one right now for a project), but I have to admit a total ignorance of it's effect on Chi or any other higher plane of influence. Being a scientist, I tend to be convinced more by things that are repeatable through rigorous experimentation. That being said, I will be the first to admit that there are plenty of phoemonena out there that are not easily explained. I just happen to believe more in the view of the "Ocam's Razor" principle, (until proven otherwise, go with the simplest explanation).
I lived in South Korea for 1 1/2 years in the early 70's. At the time I was an air traffic controller in the Army and so I didn't have any knowledge of the metal stakes. However, the effect of the deforestation was very apparent. Hiking way back in the boonies, miles from any roads, the trees were all lined up in straight rows. I was told that this was from the country wide reforestation that was effected after the Japanese cut down most of the trees during the building of their war machine.
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MH2
climber
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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Thanks for showing up, ydpl8s.
And the worse the pun, the better id is.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
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Yes jstan, that's a mean trick to pull on this population.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 17, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
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We are back to the scorpion and the frog you know.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
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From an email today...
Splinters in Her Crotch .
A woman from Los Angeles who was a tree hugger, a liberal Democrat,
and an anti-hunter, purchased a piece of timberland near Colville ,
WA .
There was a large tree on one of the highest points in the tract. She
wanted a good view of the natural splendor of her land so she started
to climb the big tree. As she neared the top she encountered a
spotted owl that attacked her. In her haste to escape, the woman slid
down the tree to the ground and got many splinters in her crotch.
In considerable pain, she hurried to a local ER to see a doctor. She
told him she was an environmentalist, a democrat, and an anti-hunter
and how she came to get all the splinters. The doctor listened to her
story with great patience and then told her to go wait in the
examining room and he would see if he could help her.
She sat and waited three hours before the doctor reappeared. The
angry woman demanded, "What took you so long?" He smiled and then
told her, "Well, I had to get permits from the Environmental
Protection Agency, the Forest Service, and the Bureau of Land
Management before I could remove old-growth timber from a
"recreational area" so close to a waste treatment facility. I'm
sorry, but due to ObamaCare they turned me down."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
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That's a gem, Go-B. Hahaha.
Fattrad will be posting it shortly on one of his threads.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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It actually is a politization of an old joke.
What was god thinking when he ran a sewer through a recreational area?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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thaDood:"We should all pray and try to help the people in this world that find the pain of life to much to handle." JuanDeFuca
Actually, the OT spells it out quite clearly what we should do
if the 'pain of life is too much to handle':
"Give strong drink unto those about to perish,
and wine unto those with heavy hearts;
Let them drink to forget their poverty,
and remember their misery no more."
Proverbs 31:6-7
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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OK, so where did the universe come from? what happened right before the Big Bang??
1) We don't "know". There is lots of speculation, but we just don't know. See, the thing is, 'not knowing' doesn't equal God. That is the 'God of the Gaps'.
We do however know quite well what happened at 10^-11 seconds after the Big Bang and on. In fact, from just minutes on, we know VERY WELL.
Maybe this is what happened 'just before':
http://flimmr.passagen.se/movie/family_guy_bigbang.action
OK... I answered yours, now you mine, fair enough:
What was God doing before he created the universe?
And for bonus points, why didn't he create it earlier?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
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go-B:When God created the world perfect and the devil cheated us, God rather than wiping out everything He had made He sent His Son Jesus to restore us to God!
Ummm... And he waited literally thousands of years to do this, why?
And what of the souls of all those who came before Jesus 'saved them'?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:49pm PT
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wes:Seriously, a new universe is born in every black hole. It is a whole new universe in there. This is some intriguing speculation, and there is no difference between the signularity of a black hole, and that that the universe 'banged' from.
Lee Smolin wrote a great book about this, The LIfe Of the Cosmos:
It is a really good book, with some thought provoking stuff, but it is 'still' speculation.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Jan 17, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
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yes, an old(er) joke--and a lesson for gobee:
so three engineers are having a discussion about what kind of an engineer designed the human body.
"it must have been a mechanical engineer," said the mechanical engineer. "just look at it--all those muscles and bones, all that lever action, those rotating joints--a superb example of mechanical engineering!"
"no, no," said the electrical engineer. "look at what's governing it--nerves and sensors coordinating all the stimuli, processing it through that magnificent computer, the brain--it must have been an electrical engineer!"
"you're both wrong," said the civil engineer. "it was obviously a civil engineer. only a civil engineer would put a toxic waste duct through the middle of a recreation area."
engineers 1: 1-11.
this is the process of literary tradition which preceded the invention of the printing press and the development of copyright law. it's how "sacred scripture" came down to the present--re-done, borrowed, embellished, worked over and distorted innocently and not so innocently by various "authors" and copyists, many of them with obvious personal agendas.
as i've mentioned before, bart ehrman, a leading bible scholar, started out as an honest, conservative, protestant christian, intent on serving god through scholarship. he eventually decided there was could be no hand of god concocting the unauthoritative literary mess popularly known as the bible, and he now counts himself a "happy agnostic". so it goeth.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 17, 2011 - 03:06pm PT
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ID:"I guess the only thing left to do is save your soul, whatever that means."
Royal Robbins - Movie, 180 degrees South
Sounds like Royal's heart has been touched. Glory to God! Ummm... I guess you either 'ignored' or 'denied' the part in bold?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jan 17, 2011 - 03:47pm PT
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You are in deep, DEEP, denial then my friend, as MUCH in there has been proven to be false.
And note that people who deny reality, are delusional.
de·lu·sion
noun
Definition:
1. false belief: a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of a psychiatric condition
2. mistaken notion: a false or mistaken belief or idea about something http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861603557/delusion.html
I fear that there is no way out for you... That you are truely a 'lost cause', as you honestly do not care to understand ANYTHING that threatens your worldview.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Jan 17, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
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A woman from Los Angeles who was a tree hugger, a liberal Democrat,
and an anti-hunter, purchased a piece of timberland near Colville ,
WA
You forgot to mention she is also a witch. Burn the witch!!
Was the person who sent you the email a right wingnut, lunatic gun-nut, pro-no-corporate-oversight, anti-environment, anti-personal choice, pro-big government supporter who would rather live in a concrete jungle breathing in polluted air with no freedom from unwarranted search making next-to-nothing because the corporations don't care if the "little people" live miserable lives?
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 21, 2011 - 09:37pm PT
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Thank You
DEAR GOD:
I want to thank You for what you have already done. I am not going to wait until I see results or receive rewards; I am thanking you right now. I am not going to wait until I feel better or things look better; I am thanking you right now. I am not going to wait until people say they are sorry or until they stop talking about me; I am thanking you right now.. I am not going to wait until the pain in my body disappears ; I am thanking you right now. I am not going to wait until my financial situation improves; I am going to thank you right now. I am not going to wait until the children are asleep and the house is quiet; I am going to thank you right now. I am not going to wait until I get promoted at work or until I get the job; I am going to thank you right now. I am not going to wait until I understand every experience in my life that has caused me pain or grief; I am thanking you right now. I am not going to wait until the journey gets easier or the challenges are removed;
I am thanking you right now. I am thanking you because I am alive. I am thanking you because I made it through the day's difficulties. I am thanking you because I have walked around the obstacles.
I am thanking you because I have the ability and the opportunity to do more and do better.
I'm thanking you because FATHER, YOU haven't given up on me.
With God ALL Things Are Possible (Matthew 19:26)
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MH2
climber
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Jan 22, 2011 - 03:59am PT
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a snippet from goB's missive just above:
"I'm thanking you because FATHER, YOU haven't given up on me.
With God ALL Things Are Possible (Matthew 19:26)"
An interesting pair of statments. Is it possible for God to give up on you, go-B?
The rest the go-B post can be condensed:
Parent reasures child, "Don't worry, things always work out okay in the end."
Child asks, "But what if they don't?"
Parent, "Then it's not the end."
from Canada's favorite storyteller
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Jan 22, 2011 - 11:48am PT
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Go-B,
Thanks for the post. I find gratitude to be the most difficult part of trying to live a Christian life.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 23, 2011 - 10:36am PT
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John 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
It doesn't depend on me, but on Thee!
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 26, 2011 - 08:19am PT
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Psalms 73:26, My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Jan 29, 2011 - 10:23am PT
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O God of Our Salvation
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. A Song.
Psalms 65:1, Praise is due to you, O God, in Zion,
and to you shall vows be performed.
2 O you who hear prayer,
to you shall all flesh come.
3 When iniquities prevail against me,
you atone for our transgressions.
4 Blessed is the one you choose and bring near,
to dwell in your courts!
We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house,
the holiness of your temple!
5 By awesome deeds you answer us with righteousness,
O God of our salvation,
the hope of all the ends of the earth
and of the farthest seas;
6 the one who by his strength established the mountains,
being girded with might;
7 who stills the roaring of the seas,
the roaring of their waves,
the tumult of the peoples,
8 so that those who dwell at the ends of the earth are in awe at your signs.
You make the going out of the morning and the evening to shout for joy.
9 You visit the earth and water it;
you greatly enrich it;
the river of God is full of water;
you provide their grain,
for so you have prepared it.
10 You water its furrows abundantly,
settling its ridges,
softening it with showers,
and blessing its growth.
11 You crown the year with your bounty;
your wagon tracks overflow with abundance.
12 The pastures of the wilderness overflow,
the hills gird themselves with joy,
13 the meadows clothe themselves with flocks,
the valleys deck themselves with grain,
they shout and sing together for joy.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Jan 29, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
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Hey Go-B -
Why don't you just post the whole bible and get it over with...
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jan 29, 2011 - 02:32pm PT
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No Need For A Bible
All that proof and still.. no god.
Treat humans like a human. No one human, no matter how upset or angry they may get, have the answer. The answer is found within, however, there never was a question in the first place.
All those sayings wrought with meaning for some, if spoken in space, or the middle of the desert or middle of the ocean, would have the same effect... Nothing at all. Serving to self console a human when they themselves choose it.
Why do some post quotes of scripture? Because they find it important to them at this moment. (if you ask yourself, you may find that it fits what they are thinking in this moment, and have no relevance beyond that, after all... time marches on and minds change in ways that are most unexpected) .
Throwing pebbles in a pond as metaphor: Pebble is good deed, action, or intention. Pond is everyone in the world.
How often do your pebbles have constant self-reverberation?
Your actions should lead to others actions, and on, and on.
Your intentions should lead to others intentions, and on, and on.
Your deeds should lead to others deeds, and on, and on.
This never needed a bible in order to be done. in order to be spoken. In order to be completed. In order to be learned.
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Feb 12, 2011 - 10:53am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
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go-B
climber
Revelation 7:12
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Feb 12, 2011 - 10:54am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 12, 2011 - 11:20am PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 13, 2011 - 10:33am PT
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Feb 13, 2011 - 10:44am PT
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Good one.
Look, there's Go-B, and Werner, and madbolter, and illusiondweller!
No, Aunt Em, this was a real truly live place and I remember some of it wasn't very nice, but most of it was beautiful--but just the same all I kept saying to everybody was "I want to go home," and they sent me home! Doesn't anybody believe me? But anyway, Toto, we're home! Home. And this is my room, and you're all here and I'm not going to leave here ever, ever again. Because I love you all. And... Oh Auntie Em! There's no place like home!
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Douglas Rhiner
Mountain climber
Truckee , CA
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Feb 13, 2011 - 10:47am PT
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The avatar "illusiondweller" seems apropos.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 13, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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Illusion dweller was apropos. Truthdweller points to delusions of grandeur. Before you could imagine the presence of sardonic humor. That was welcome. Now?
Saying God will save me implied one knows god's mind. Something so seriously disapproved in centuries past you were liable to be in a hot spot for it. I guess it was thought to imply one was possessed by satan. You know. That sort of reasoning.
Clearly satan would say he knew god's mind. If at all enterprising he would also say he planned to reduce taxes. That is a guaranteed crowd pleaser.
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 14, 2011 - 08:11am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Now this is LOVE!
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 15, 2011 - 08:12am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
God knows where your at!
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 08:29am PT
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God, and I thought this tread was dead!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:46am PT
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we haven't heard from klimmer for awhile. maybe he took my advice and joined the catholic church. if he wants to leave his wife and family behind, he could even join a monastery.
i think gobee would make a great catholic too. catholics love to pile things up like this. they have something called the doctrine of brownie points. father guido sarducci puts it in terms of dollars and cents. it's all in the letter the virgin mary of fatima sent to the pope: life is a job. god pays you for it, but when you die, you have to pay god back--pay for your sins. gobee gets maybe a dime from god every time he puts a little screed page on here.
father sarducci said that a big sin, like murder, would probably cost around $100. masturbation, the most common sin he hears in confession, probably doesn't amount to much, maybe 35 cents. but it can add up ... a-thirty-five, a-thirty-five, a-thirty-five ...
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 16, 2011 - 07:41am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
It's crazy to live without God!
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 17, 2011 - 08:40am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
You are Almighty God and Heavenly Father and in You I hope and trust and there is no good apart from You.
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 19, 2011 - 10:26am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Galatians 3:26, For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Feb 21, 2011 - 10:55am PT
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yea, you could pass her off as divinity. she sure strikes fear in oldfarts' hearts. and, like god, she comes and goes as she pleases, despite many prayers to influence her.
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 23, 2011 - 01:16am PT
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glanton, nice add LEB'N
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 23, 2011 - 08:15am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
When you know you have God, you have all you need!
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Andree Hussar
climber
bedford,ny
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Feb 23, 2011 - 11:09pm PT
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People believe in God because there is a God, and just because you choose not to believe in God does not make him not exist.
I believe in the God of the bible.
The big bang theory was God creating the earth.
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Andree Hussar
climber
bedford,ny
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Feb 23, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
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If you died and turned into a piece of foam on the sea your life would be meaningless.
But that is Darwinism, there is no creator and life is meaningless.
There is a God and he put that in every person's heart to believe.
How can anyone look at the stars and the universe and the complexity of ants and microbes and humans and say it was created by nothing. That is illogical reasoning.
Even going back to the "big bang", something had to start it ; nothing cannot start something..it is the first law of motion; NEWTON'S LAWS OF MOTION: every body remains in a state of rest unless it is acted upon by an external force.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 23, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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PETERSBURG - Kentucky
A panel of prominent scientists and paleontologists have discovered new groundbreaking evidence that Jesus walked with dinosaurs.
Jesus and his disciples walked with dinosaurs 2000 years ago and the earth and universe are only 10,000 years old.
Independent scientists funded by the Christian Neocon Church of Kentucky have also discovered that Adam and Eve wore fashionable garments given by God. This goes against the grain of the popular belief that they wore leaves over their genitalia in the Garden of Eden.
These are just some of the myriad of facts which have now been discovered to be true by the Scientists working in tandem with archeologists all over America.
Evolution Myth
Professor Alan Johnsons from the University of Mobile, Alabama says: "Blasphemers and evolutionists deny the fact that humans and dinosaurs coexisted. This is not the true Christian path that God and Jesus wrote
Image courtesy Monty Propps
about.
"Children and adults outside of America are indoctrinated with the false 'belief' that man did not co-exist with dinosaurs starting from early childhood with books that teach it. It's reinforced in their school systems, the media and the entertainment industry.
"God wrote in the Bible that he created humans and dinosaurs on the same day. Jesus walked and talked with dinosaurs. He even had one as a pet sometimes - an Agilisaurus which he kept in his Carpentry workshop. We have eyewitness accounts and scientific evidence about this, folks, and it's all in the Bible."
The scientific study was not only all encompassing with profound discoveries in three continents, but also took over twenty years of research to finally come up with definitive answers to everything.
George W Bush has even been named patron of the Creationist movement and was last year honoured at Kentucky Fry University with a Masters in Young Earth Studies.
The University at Kentucky Fry has also discovered dinosaur footprints dated 2000 years ago alongside the footprints of man. This incredible discovery alone is enough to cement the theory.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 23, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 23, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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The Bible says God made the dinosaurs with man. They both lived peaceably, side-by-side, and were vegetarians. Neither man nor the animals were meat-eaters until after the flood. The terrible T-Rex may have become a meat-eater after the flood (and God's curse on the ground). The dinosaurs didn't live for millions of years before man as evolution says. Dinosaurs have never ruled the earth; mankind was given that task by God.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 24, 2011 - 10:22am PT
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 26, 2011 - 08:12am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Jesus IS good enough, and He wants to share, thank God!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Feb 28, 2011 - 09:36am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
John 6:37, All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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"If we want to postulate a deity capable of engineering all the organized complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, that deity must already have been vastly complex in the first place. The creationist, whether a naive Bible-thumper or an educated bishop, simply postulates an already existing being of prodigious intelligence and complexity. If we are going to allow ourselves the luxurt of postulating organized complexity without offering an explanation, we might as well make a job of it and simply postulate the existence of life as we know it!"
Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker (New York: W.W. Norton, 1986), p. 316.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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And speaking of Men of God: Another one bites the dust.
Rev. Grant Storms, a renowned anti-gay Christian pastor from Louisiana, was arrested last week for masturbating at a public park, in the vicinity of a carousel and playground where children were present.
According to the New Orleans Times-Picayune, one woman saw Storms parked in his van "looking at the playground area that contained children playing, with his zipper down...," the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office report read. After judging that Storms was masturbating, the woman and another mother who witnessed the event both alerted deputies.
After being apprehended by authorities, Storms claimed that he had been urinating into a bottle. He was then booked for obscenity -- charges that he denied -- and then released due to overcrowding in the jail.
The reverend appeared less willing to discuss the matter at a press conference on Tuesday, during which he blamed "pornography" for the incident.
"Pornography is destructive and it can ruin a person's life, and it ruined my life," he said at the conference, admitting that he had his hands in his pants, but maintaining that he wasn't masturbating. "Do I have problems? Yes. Did I do something wrong? Yes."
Despite his apology, which he also extended to the gay community, to which he has been a prominent opponent, Grants also denied claims that he had been "looking at the children" in the area.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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The creationist, whether a naive Bible-thumper or an educated bishop, simply postulates an already existing being of prodigious intelligence and complexity.
this shows the lopsidedness of dawkins' education and the lack of imagination in his conception of god.
hey, those folks in new orleans got more apology and contrition outa rev. storms in one day than catholics have gotten out of all their priests and bishops in the last 50 years. he joins the rush limbaugh do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do dittohead club.
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
No one knows when it's your last shot, are you ready to meet your maker!
Jesus is the crash pad of God, the one you really need!
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go-B
climber
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Hope that God opens your eyes to the truth of Him!
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Luke 23:43, And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
What a promise!
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Matthew 9:12, But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Mar 10, 2011 - 10:55am PT
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That's so DARK-SIDED!!!
Here's her MySpace page. Definitely give the rap song a listen..
"I am extremely patient as true Christians are..."
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 10, 2011 - 11:03am PT
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And, after making a big "show" for the cameras, and ripping up the check cause it was 'tainted', off screen she acceped the money, and got gastric bypass surgery.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Mar 10, 2011 - 11:12am PT
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And god rewarded her unwavering faith by killing her oldest daughter in a car crash.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Mar 10, 2011 - 11:23am PT
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In Jeff's honor I'll answer is question.
Because they are dyslectic.
They should be looking for a good dog. In that you can have faith.
Even a bad dog is better than no dog.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 10, 2011 - 11:36am PT
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Skeppy,
Mother Nature works in mysterious ways.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Mar 10, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
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^^^^^
aka: random events....
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 10, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
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And god rewarded her unwavering faith by killing her oldest daughter in a car crash. Unfortunately, that is also the one that the God Warrior blamed much of her problems on in that video... Said she didn't pray enough.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 10, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
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Said she didn't pray enough.
That always confuses me. Sometimes people say that God has a plan for everyone. If you can pray enough to make God change his plans, doesn't that mean that you are somehow changing Gods plan? If God is omnipotent then wouldn't the plan already be the best possible plan?
Do any of the believers have an explanation for that?
Can you pray enough to actually make your life better somehow or not?
How about praying for others? Can you make someone else's life better by praying?
And in the end, doesn't praying for someone life to be better constitute greed which is a sin? After all, averting Gods original plan so that you are happier that little Timmy got his heart transplant is just human greed.
Thanks for any insights about this.
Dave
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 10, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
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Do any of the believers have an explanation for that?
Or this one: Would it be okay to pray to God to blow the roof off your 25 year old trailer in the storm so your insurance buys a new one?
Would it be child abuse if Marguerite - the God Warrior - demanded her one remaining daughter to pray for this? and if the daughter didn't because she thought it was wrong would it be child abuse if the mother punished her?
And if so, how could the state step in? Because it would be freedom of religion. Hmmm....
Thanks for any insights about this.
....
Wes, haha.
My extended family was really into the Left Behind series. Proof right there that there is something in the world called "religious fiction."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 10, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
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Would it be okay to pray to God to blow the roof off your 25 year old trailer in the storm so your insurance buys a new one?
And if you removed just a few nails to aid your roof blowing off a few days later after praying for it... who really did it? Was it you, under your own "free will" entirely or (b) was it the Holy Ghost, influencing your will (if not "possessing" it entirely) helping you along?
Who's to say? Pat Robertson? Ted Haggert?
Thanks for any insights about this.
.....
EDIT
Or you could just sneer at them!
Who says there has to be just ONE strategy?
Religious superstition is a complex problem requiring many and various strategies. Kinda like climbing.
Don't get yourself locked into a one-strategy playbook. Not good.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Mar 10, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
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Really some people take the wrong things much to seriously, & that does not let them see what is right in front of them.
Everyone needs to find a good dog & have faith.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 10, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
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If humans lack free will then...
Then God or the big bang has pretty much forced all of us to act exactly how we are acting right at this moment. At least if that's the case, I can't be blamed for being what I am.
Funny thing about free will; if we have it, then God cannot possibly know how this will all end. Not so omnipotent after all, not being able to see the future. Even if God could see all possible futures, not knowing which one will be the right one puts a damper on being supreme.
Dave
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 10, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
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What word that starts with an 'H' best describes this?
I don't know, I can't decide, hassoles or hypocrites.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 10, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
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I must be insane, I keep posting and keep getting the same results!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 10, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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Cintune,
I'd like your synopsis if not essay on Peterson's lecture posted HERE by 7:30 morning tomorrow. But if you post up by 7:00 I'll be able to review it over coffee. :)
This was an interesting take:
"The man who goes out to confront chaos when the traditions are crumbling is more likely to find a mate."
So this was Peterson's take on what myth?
And it probably assumes the man is under 50 years old. ;)
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MH2
climber
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Mar 10, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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Thanks for that real-life example, weschrist.
Always go to the source, they say.
Doesn't seem to work in religion.
So back to the obfuscating board.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 10, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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The idea with Jonah,
1. Now and then, what lurks underneath in the darkness rises up to swallow you.
2. But if your attitude is proper, then you can come back out sometime later changed for the better.
A story of recovery or redemption.
.....
Jordan Peterson-
"The purpose of life as far as I can tell from studying mythology and from studying psychology for decades is to find a mode of being that is so meaningful that the fact that life is suffering is no longer relevant or maybe that it is even acceptable."
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Mar 10, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
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HFCS...what is your concept of the Book of Jonah? I didn't follow if you were commenting on someone else's interpretation or?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Mar 10, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
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Luggi,
Sorry for the lack of clarity there. Those were just a comment and quote or two from Jordan Peterson. From the link Cintune above posted. Earlier I watched the lecture. I thought it was pretty good.
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luggi
Trad climber
from the backseat of Jake& Elwood Blues car
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Mar 11, 2011 - 12:17am PT
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Thanks HFCS...there is so much in that short book that I thought might be worth some exploration. But...prolly not a good idea
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 11, 2011 - 10:40am PT
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I must be insane, I keep posting and keep getting the same results!
that's because you keep posting the same stuff, gobee. as i've suggested to you before, put it in your own words. your message isn't very popular, so you'll have to work extra hard at that.
any fool can dump tons of crap into a post window, but it won't get read unless it engages the others directly. in order to do that, you actually have to listen to what others have to say, whether you like what they're saying or not. if you think it's a simple debate, you'd better think again.
maybe this will help:
"Listen, Meg, God made the angels to show Him splendor, as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But Man He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of his mind."
--from a man for all seasons
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 11, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
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a man for all seasons was written in the 20th century about a man who lived in the 16th century. it's very true, thomas more had no appreciation for the periodic table of the elements and never looked through a microscope, which hadn't been invented yet.
so then, weschrist, are you telling me sex is not innocent? or homosexual sex is sinful--for dogs? please think this out for me, it's strange territory.
delusion of self-importance? according to the prophet john muir, everything is important.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Mar 11, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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Could you kindly kept dogs out of your human thinking.
& people wonder why we get bit.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 11, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
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i'm still not clear as to whether gay dogs are going to hell.
but i think glanton had a good one there with the jewish zombie. jesus is such a two-dimensional human, so aloof, so administrative. just never had the feeling he was one of us. some people think he never existed. others find a very different religion in the apocrypha, buried now for centuries as we dodder along under an orthodoxy which seems increasingly obsolete in a modern world.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Mar 12, 2011 - 10:20am PT
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"The road to Hell may be paved with good intentions: the road to Heaven is paved with lost opportunities." --Apsley Cherry-Garrard
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mar 14, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Mar 15, 2011 - 11:06am PT
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I suggest all you bible-ignoring, Jesus-hating vile heathens repent and join His Cause!!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Mar 15, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
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funny to see that jesus freak trying to spindoctor the disaster in japan. she should have been around in 1964, when the alaska quake hit, thought to have been a 10 on the richter scale. it was on a good friday, and a lot of people thought the world was ending. but it wasn't.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Mar 15, 2011 - 08:56pm PT
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 16, 2011 - 08:57am PT
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Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?) Because if you pray to him, he will protect you from Earthquakes and nuclear events... Oh, wait...
Ok, because he is making this stuff happen (E.g., causing the deaths and suffering of countless innocents [infants, children, and even the 'faithful']) to signal his return is near. Oh, wait...
Becasue it makes them feel good, that all the above is in some way true, if you just twist how you look at somethings, and ignore other things.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 16, 2011 - 09:41am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
You get to choose?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Mar 16, 2011 - 11:41am PT
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Dear god, hope you get the letter and...
I pray you can make it better down here
I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer
But all the people that you made in your image
See them starving in the street
'Cause they don't get enough to eat from god
I can't believe in you
Dear god, sorry to disturb you but...
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
And all the people that you made in your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet about god
I can't believe in you
Did you make disease and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!
Dear god don't know if you noticed but...
Your name is on a lot of quotes in this book
And us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look
And all the people that you made in your image
still believing that junk is true
Well I know it ain't, and so do you
Dear god
I can't believe in
I don't believe
I won't believe in heaven or hell
No saints, no sinners, no devil as well
No pearly gates, no thorny crown
You're always letting us humans down
The wars you bring, the babes you drown
Those lost at sea and never found
And it's the same the whole world 'round
The hurt I see helps to compound
That father, son and holy ghost
Is just somebody's unholy hoax
And if you're up there you'll perceive
That my heart's here upon my sleeve
If there's one thing I don't believe in
It's you
Dear god
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 16, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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Well said, D... As always.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 16, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
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2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 17, 2011 - 08:04am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
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MH2
climber
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Mar 17, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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"Others see angry clouds and assign the emotion to god."
Yes, and still others see sunlight as God's love or gods' gift and that may have helped our distant ancestors look past times of angry clouds and other trials and hardships.
If you want to know what is in the mind of an owl, first you'd need to forget language, how to drive, history, TV and movies, etc. We can begin by saying there is a lot that isn't in the mind of the owl, from our perspective.
The same may be said for human infants.
One of my sisters did a Masters Thesis on animal play. Watching young animals play is the best way I know of to get the sense that animals and people share at least a little emotional common ground.
Last October I was out at a clifftop enjoying a post-climb glow and watching the sun set and noticed a small translucent red spider in the lichen near a coil of the rope. In the mood I was in I felt connection to the spider; how it didn't have a house to go to and didn't have health insurance or any protection at all besides what it could do on its own, but I guessed it was possible the spider, when it grasped and injected its next bug might feel savage exultation. Or was it savage exaltation? (Sheridan Anderson reference)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 20, 2011 - 10:45am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 21, 2011 - 10:41am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Jesus holds the keys to God's Kingdom, and He wants you to have them, you but have to ask!
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 21, 2011 - 11:35am PT
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Mar 21, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
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This sign-reading tendency has a distinct and clear relationship with morality. When it comes to unexpected heartache and tragedy, our appetite for unraveling the meaning of these ambiguous "messages" can become ravenous. Misfortunes appear cryptic, symbolic; they seem clearly to be about our behaviors. Our minds restlessly gather up bits of the past as if they were important clues to what just happened. And no stone goes unturned. Nothing is too mundane or trivial; anything to settle our peripatetic thoughts from arriving at the unthinkable truth that there is no answer because there is no riddle, that life is life and that is that.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=signs-signs-everywhere-signs-seeing-2011-03-13
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 24, 2011 - 08:13am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Jesus had the compassion for the hurting!
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Mar 24, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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Never posted here.
I'm going to waste an hour and write some thoughts here even thou only a few people will read them.
I was brought up a catholic and even was an alter boy for a while. My oldest brother is a priest, and spent most of his time in the highlands of Peru.
I've traveled quite a bit and seen many cultures. It seems the human race wants to believe in a "Higher Power". It's been many years since I was a practicing Catholic and I've thought quite a bit about this subject.
As I get older, I realize that there are fewer years ahead. I think for many the belief in a "Higher Power" gives some comfort--so to speak.
I went to the IMAX theater in L.A last week and saw the pictures of the universe taken by the Hubble Telescope. I've always been an astronomy nut since I was a teen. I was blown away!!!
I've often pondered how the universe was created and really have a hard time getting my head around it and never will. For many, Religion, solves this problem. It's pretty easy to explain that the universe was created by
a "GOD", and that your spirit will also live after you, once your dead.
I hold no ill will towards the people who believe in a "GOD". The question I keep pondering is the same question which human beings have been asking since the cave man. If there is a "GOD" ---who created "it".
The "Big Bang Theory" explains how the Universe was created. Well, where did the matter come from before the "Big Bang"?
I said that I couldn't get my head around it.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Mar 24, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
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The "Big Bang Theory" explains how the Universe was created. Well, where did the matter come from before the "Big Bang"?
There was no matter before the Big Bang, in fact, there was no matter just after it either, just energy and spacetime.
Read up brutha, and enjoy the journey...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang
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MH2
climber
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Mar 24, 2011 - 03:32pm PT
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from steveA
"It's pretty easy to explain that the universe was created by
a "GOD", and that your spirit will also live after you, once your dead."
Whether you wasted time posting is a whole other question.
But your spirit and every other part of you may live after you once you are dead, at least in what we call "the past". Time is one of the harder subjects to wrap one's head around, probably more so than where matter and energy came from.
Glad you posted.
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MH2
climber
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Mar 24, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
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All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration... duh
Good. Now tell us what energy is.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 25, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
I am sure blessed, and you can be to!
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 27, 2011 - 06:17am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
If God is for us that is enough!
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 28, 2011 - 08:14am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Not by sight but by faith and God's word, doing what God will's that which is perfect, righteous, and Holy!
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 29, 2011 - 08:09am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
All things come from the Hand of God, it's amazing He lets us be apart of it!
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 30, 2011 - 08:10am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
When we truly repent and turn to God, He will always forgive us when we ask Him in the name of His son, Jesus !
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Mar 31, 2011 - 08:12am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
John 15:5, “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 31, 2011 - 11:25am PT
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Go-b, what's with the Bible posts? The atheist's don't read them so you not converting anyone any more than the atheists are converting you with Jesus zombie pictures. You seem to be over-doing it a bit compared to the atheists.
Dave
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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re: the scientific study of religious beliefs
re: the afterlife (aka lifeafter)
In one experiment, children aged 4-12 viewed a puppet show in which an alligator eats a mouse and then answered questions about the mouse. Now that it has died, does it miss its Mom? Is it still hungry? Can it still taste the grass that it ate before it died? Curiously, the younger the children, the more likely they were to attribute mental states to the recently deceased mouse.
.....
"Is it still hungry?"
"Does it miss its mom?"
LOL!!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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So, a long while back I did a few favors for a fundie family who were just moving in up the street, and as a "thank you" they bought us tickets to the Easter pageant at their megachurch.
Couldn't say no.
There we were, sitting front and center as the passion play unfolded. They had this gruesome prosthetic latex back-piece all red and oozing for the scourging bit. That was quite a hit. Also some unambiguous improv from the Pilate character as to who was at fault for all the shenanigans (rhymes with "the Jews").
I happened to be sitting next to their 6-year-old daughter, and at the climactic moment when the disciples rolled back the stone and Jesus wasn't there she looked up at me all wide-eyed and asked "Where did he go?!"
Quite the dilemma.
My instinct was to whisper that there was a trap-door at the back of the tomb.
But that just seemed wrong, so I opted into the fantasy and said "He went to heaven."
And then I winked. I think she got the message.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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God loves us, no fool'n!
From what I hear, He hates me. I'm an atheist.
Dave
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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From what I hear, He hates me. I'm an atheist.
No, Dave. He loved you enough to die for you. Unfortunately, some of His followers didn't get the message.
john
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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The Easter Bunny is coming soon!
All children love fairy tales.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
Talking about infinite interest on your investment!
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jstan
climber
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Apr 10, 2011 - 10:50am PT
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The article below well describes how the looney medical bills come about. This most certainly is not the free market upon which the republican proposal for doing away with medicare is based.
The ultimate death panel. You got money or friends – you get to live.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/08/business/la-fi-lazarus-20110408
A remedy for medical bill ills
(The obvious solution for making the cost of treatments clear and consistent is to replace individual contracts between insurers and providers with fixed prices determined by a panel of experts.)
April 08, 2011|David Lazarus
There are loony medical bills, and then there's the bill Robert Hsu was hit with after undergoing heart surgery at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in January.
Hsu, 84, of Thousand Oaks had an aortic valve replaced on his ticker. He spent four nights in the hospital.
The bill: $266,567.46.
But is that how much his insurer, Medicare, was billed? No. As I recently reported, hospitals routinely inflate their charges — often by huge margins — so they can still make money after contractual discounts are imposed by insurers.
In Hsu's case, the discount was a hefty $224,819.89. In other words, Cedars-Sinai shaved about 84% off its bill to meet the terms of its contract with Medicare.
In response to my column, dozens of people like Hsu contacted me to share their experiences of jaw-dropping bills — and the steep discounts that invariably followed. Cedars was mentioned frequently, but a number of other hospitals also figured in the tales of medical woe.
For example, John Reynolds, 88, of Koreatown injured himself in a fall and spent a week at California Hospital Medical Center. "There was no special treatment of any kind," he said.
He was billed $115,409.21 for the hospital stay, or almost $16,500 a day. But the bill to Medicare was discounted by $101,103.73 — a more than 87% reduction.
Eric Sherman of Tarzana went to Cedars for cancer surgery. The initial bill was for about $150,000. It was discounted by about 77% before going to Sherman's insurer, Blue Shield of California.
The discount system began decades ago when Medicare and other government-run insurance programs demanded reduced prices from healthcare providers. Private insurers insisted on equal treatment, and soon it became standard practice for medical bills to be heavily inflated to accommodate the contractual discounts.
This is a system that makes a mockery of free-market economics and leaves the consumer in a bewildered state of ignorance when it comes to medical pricing.
"There's no correlation with what things actually cost," said Dr. Phil Schwarzman, medical director of the emergency department at Burbank's Providence St. Joseph Medical Center. "It's impossible for patients to know the real cost of treatment."
And because each insurer cuts its own contract with healthcare providers, the cost to one can be wildly different from the cost to another. Again, consumers are left out in the cold when it comes to understanding what they're paying for when they receive treatment.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Apr 10, 2011 - 11:36am PT
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need to get an expensive lawyer who will take on one of these hospitals. establish a pattern of unfairness and selective billing. make them pay the lawyer's fee and ask the judge to order restitution to all those billed unfairly in the past.
melvin belli is no longer available. most lawyers these days are scared to death of the guv-mint. i think their noses are fitted for rings in law school.
"i believe in a government of laws, not of men." -- from the jaycee creed. no longer operative?
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 10, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
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Bertrand Russell said, “What we need is not the will to believe, but the will to find out.” I do think one of the vices of religion is it teaches you to be satisfied with not understanding. As Augustine said, “There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives us to try to discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should not wish to learn.” But as Mark Twain said, “When you know a man’s religious complexion, you now what sort of religious books he reads when he wants some more light, and what sort of books he avoids, lest by accident he gets more light than he wants.”
http://friendlyatheist.com/
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shut up and pull
climber
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Apr 10, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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Feel the hope!
Feel the change!
From Powerline today:
Today the White House announced that President Obama will deliver a major speech Wednesday evening to "lay out a broad plan to reduce the nation's soaring deficit and debt." David Plouffe says the new plan will make clear that Obama "believes we need significant deficit reduction in the coming years."
But wait! Didn't Obama just lay out for us his vision of the nation's fiscal future? Indeed he did: the administration presented its FY 2012 budget on February 14, less than 60 days ago. And already, that budget has been relegated to the scrap heap. Obama will now start over with a fiscal plan that he hopes will be more credible than his official FY 2012 proposal.
That tells you everything you need to know about who won the standoff over FY 2011. Republican calls for a responsible budget are in the ascendancy, as the administration's polling evidently confirms. You can draw the same conclusion from the evolution in Harry Reid's statements about spending cuts, as noted by Andrew Stiles at The Corner:
Harry Reid, Feb. 3, 2011, on Paul Ryan's initial offer of $32 billion in spending cuts:
The chairman of the Budget Committee today, today sent us something even more draconian than we originally anticipated...So this isn't some game that people have been playing. The House of Representatives [is] actually sending us some of these unworkable plans.
Harry Reid, April 9, 2011, on a deal to cut $38.5 billion:
This is historic, what we've done.
When the Democrats are trying to take credit for spending cuts (much as President Clinton tried to claim credit for welfare reform, after vetoing it twice), you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 14, 2011 - 08:14am PT
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Hey TB, what's not to like...
Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
All to Him I owe, thank you Jesus!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Apr 14, 2011 - 11:24am PT
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here's what's not to like, gobee. this is a climber's discussion thread. discussion means to talk in your own words, not to post gobs of propaganda and garbage. most of us don't like what you're doing here. we're waiting for you to run out of steam so this rather important discussion can get back on track. you've killed it with the screed.
you're not helping your case any, if you're out to talk about what your religion means to you. it shows you can't even put it in your own words, and you can't take the criticism you're likely to get.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 16, 2011 - 07:59am PT
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Your glory is higher than the mountains,
I long to be where you are.
What a friend we have in Jesus,
Son of God, Son of man our brother,
High exalted one.
Grace on earth,
good will towards man,
the Cornerstone,
the great I AM!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 16, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
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Physics Today carried an article about attempts to computer model how the Universe evolved during the first billion years. During the first half billion years charged particles interacted with light so light from that period( coming across 13 billion light-years of space) cannot be seen by our telescopes.
The following is excerpted:
"Associated with the ionizing radiation( ultraviolet light) of the massive primordial star is a rise in pressure that repels material from the dark matter halos at 10 times the gravitational escape speed. Consequently, as shown in figure 4, within a few million years of being born, massive stars have largely evacuated their birthplaces. At the end of the star's life, the surrounding density may be as low as 0.1-1 particles/cc. with such low densities, if the star dies in a supernova explosion, the heavy elements it ejects can travel more than 1000 light years into the intergalactic medium. The inexorable force of gravity will collect that material into small star forming regions; figure 5 shows a simulated image. Over the next billion years, tens of thousands of those regions came together to form the Milky Way. Indeed, as many as one in a thousand carbon and oxygen atoms in our bodies is thought to have been made in the earliest generations of massive stars."
End of excerpt
Some parts of us may be almost 13 billion years old.
http://twitter.com/PhysicsToday/status/55269786132819968
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Andree Hussar
climber
ny
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Apr 16, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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GOD CREATED ADAPTATION/ EVOLUTION . THE BIBLE LEAVES THAT OUT BECAUSE IT IS NOT IMPORTANT.
THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IS THAT WE HAVE SEPARATION FROM GOD BECAUSE WE INHERITED SIN.
JESUS IMPUTED OUR SIN WHEN HE DIED ON THE CROSS.
AND BECAUSE HE IS RIGHTEOUS/ WITHOUT SIN WE NOW ARE COVERED BY HIS BLOOD AND ARE RIGHTEOUS BEFORE GOD AND WILL NOT HAVE TO PAY THE PENALTY THAT SIN DEMANDS ;
IE ( PERMANENT SEPARATION FROM GOD FOR ETERNITY).
THAT IS WHAT EASTER IS ALL ABOUT...
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 16, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 16, 2011 - 09:04pm PT
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our original sin happened as a sting operation in the Garden of Eden?
because we used our "free will" freely?
I'll stick with science and continue to consider "God" as a fantasy.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 16, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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Brilliant cintune!
Gorgeous eggs in a filthy pot.
Pretty well sums it up.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 16, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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Or perhaps that out of an old, well used vessel, something beautiful can still be created?
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 17, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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Psalm 127:1, Unless the LORD builds the house,
They labor in vain who build it;
Unless the LORD guards the city,
The watchman keeps awake in vain.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 17, 2011 - 12:59am PT
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hey there say, jan... as to your quote:
Or perhaps that out of an old, well used vessel, something beautiful can still be created?
say, i like that--as, well, :) i AM gettig older, and i like to think of myself as an older-well-used vessel, but one with some beauty to give my grandkids, and eggs are wholesome enough picture, and they also when not eaten,are hatched into new lif, or new "wisdom" as an example, so to speak... and they look pretty when share as inspiration and colored so nice for spring... :)
thanks for the share, as to that pretty colored egg picture
:)
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Apr 17, 2011 - 01:10am PT
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Even children get it . . .
Children have a lot of fantasies, such as monsters, aliens, and imaginary friends. And you think this brings validity to your belief in God?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2011 - 01:54am PT
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Everyone knows God exists just as the finger can not be independent from the whole.
Everyone sees God 24 hours a day everyday and with every breath.
Even the atheists.
Some just don't recognize him.
Thus their minds wander and loose control although they think they're in control.
They think they are the chief.
But little do they know that they're only Indians ....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 17, 2011 - 01:57am PT
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Some parts of us may be almost 13 billion years old.
Isn't every single atom we're made up of 13+ billion years old? The hydrogen and helium atoms because that was 99.999% of the universe after the Big Bang, and all the heavier elements made from fusion of that hydrogen and helium? The protons, neutrons and electrons of the heavier elements, and any other bits that Ed has found, were all there at the start, they're just combined in different ways.
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Apr 17, 2011 - 02:34am PT
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Once again, Werner seems to have it all figured out.
Even the atheists.
And you're an authority on atheism how? I love how you make broad sweeping claims of ignorance. what a joke.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2011 - 02:48am PT
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No
God is the authority .....
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Apr 17, 2011 - 03:30am PT
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To know God is the authority, you must have an authority on God to know God. Of which, I don't. And I don't believe anyone else does either.
The way I see, none of us has any knowledge of who we are or where we came from. Why not just let that be?
I will never trust anyone who claims otherwise.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 17, 2011 - 04:04am PT
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For sure, no one makes any progress with any field of knowledge, whether science or spirituality, if they are sure they have nothing more to learn before they even start.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 17, 2011 - 04:19am PT
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They think they are the chief...
There is no chief, no authority - be brave, be your own.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 17, 2011 - 10:13am PT
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I learn something new everyday reading the word (Bible) of God!
Lamentations 3:22, The LORD'S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
24 "The LORD is my portion," says my soul,
"Therefore I have hope in Him."
25 The LORD is good to those who wait for Him,
To the person who seeks Him.
26 It is good that he waits silently
For the salvation of the LORD.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 17, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
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The way I see, none of us has any knowledge of who we are or where we came from.
There is no chief, no authority - be brave, be your own.
You 2 guys are hypocrites.
You just made your own authority statements.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 18, 2011 - 02:01am PT
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To the Bible believers:
Do you pick and choose what you want to believe from the Bible? Or is it all the word of God?
If you pick and choose, why would you choose to believe the parts that condemn minorities like gay folks?
If it's all the word of God, then you believe slavery is acceptable right?
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 18, 2011 - 11:59am PT
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glanton,
You don't eat Christ's real flesh and drink His blood, it is to remember what He did for us!
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 18, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
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The Lord's Supper
Luke 22:14, When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him.
15 And He said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16 for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
17 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."
19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 18, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
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CSI Calvary.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 18, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
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So go-b you are saying it's ok to pick and choose what parts to believe? That makes a lot more sense to me.
However it does make one responsible when they choose to believe the bigoted/evil parts.
We can ignore things like:
Psalms 137:8-9, God is asked to bless those who would bash Babylonian babies against stones in an act of mass infanticide.
Exodus 21:7: "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 18, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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Psalm 137
http://www.brfwitness.org/?p=518
How would you feel if you were a Jew under the Natzi regime in WWII, an eye for an eye? Jesus said to love your enemy, I would need God's help to do that!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
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it isn't symbolic, gobee. it's called transubstantiation. it's the real mofo, the really, really stuff, not the welch's grape juice you get in certain churches. there's a quote about it somewhere, no matter which pitter-patter you subscribe to. can't get into the kingdom of heaven without it. god's lawyers got you cornered. it's not the piece of cheese you think.
sometimes jesus says love your enemy, sometimes he says turn the other cheek, sometimes he says he's here to bring a sword and turn brother against brother. he don't have his sh#t straight. ergo? he can't be god, just another confused human.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 18, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
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There's a lot of good stuff in the Bible and a lot of B.S.
Love thy enemy I take as advice for yourself. If you hate someone that consumes you and makes YOU miserable and doesn't harm your enemy at all. If you try to love and understand your enemy YOU are better off. It doesn't mean you can't kill your enemy as a last resort if you need to.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 18, 2011 - 09:41pm PT
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Uh, nope, sorry. He clearly identifies himself as an instigator.
You must not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a son’s wife against her mother-in-law; and a man will find his enemies under his own roof.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
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cintune's got it right. "prince of peace" is not what it's about. what it's about is: join my club, or else.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 18, 2011 - 11:28pm PT
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Do you think Matthew was misquoting?
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 19, 2011 - 12:40am PT
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The idiots
They claim the bible is all bullsh'it and the same time they take it as fact for their stupid mental speculations.
Total hypocrites and it proves they can't think nor see themselves out of a paper bag.
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fresh pow
Boulder climber
phoenix
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Apr 19, 2011 - 12:51am PT
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The Gospel of Thomas is my favorite.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 19, 2011 - 10:12am PT
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Isaiah 49:18, As I live," declares the LORD
Woo doggie!
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jstan
climber
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Apr 19, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
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"Next, the researchers hope to delve deeper by finding out why children behaved well when being watched by Alice: whether it was from fear she would punish them directly, or that she would tell the experimenter."
I think another approach would be to correlate obedience with whether the person telling them about Princess Alice is another child or an adult. It is a three person interaction, Princess Alice being the third.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 22, 2011 - 10:02am PT
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http://www.christianpost.com/news/belief-in-angry-god-keeps-students-from-cheating-49917/
“The idea that gods used to be more authoritarian vengeful agents is consistent with the idea that … the initial role of religions was to foster moral behavior which made cohesive cooperative societies in a time where there were no secular laws, policing systems,” he noted. “And so the idea of having moral systems and moral regulations outsourced to a punitive agent was a very effective thing in religious societies.”
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Apr 22, 2011 - 10:25am PT
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goodness--agreeing with cintune again. if you would understand religion, study anthropology. societies need sanctions to behavior. for this we have myths, many, many kinds of myth. it's organic. the product of our animal nature--animals have emotions, but probably not quite projected into myths--combined with the extra leaps our cutting-edge nervous systems have developed.
which isn't to say that there is no god.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 22, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
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So then you'd be open to the possibility of the Easter Bunny too?
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 23, 2011 - 11:42am PT
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Message to American Atheists
By CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS - AA CONFERENCE, VIA PHARYNGULA
Added: Friday, 22 April 2011 at 5:08 PM
Dear fellow-unbelievers,
Nothing would have kept me from joining you except the loss of my voice (at least my speaking voice) which in turn is due to a long argument I am currently having with the specter of death. Nobody ever wins this argument, though there are some solid points to be made while the discussion goes on. I have found, as the enemy becomes more familiar, that all the special pleading for salvation, redemption and supernatural deliverance appears even more hollow and artificial to me than it did before. I hope to help defend and pass on the lessons of this for many years to come, but for now I have found my trust better placed in two things: the skill and principle of advanced medical science, and the comradeship of innumerable friends and family, all of them immune to the false consolations of religion. It is these forces among others which will speed the day when humanity emancipates itself from the mind-forged manacles of servility and superstitition. It is our innate solidarity, and not some despotism of the sky, which is the source of our morality and our sense of decency.
That essential sense of decency is outraged every day. Our theocratic enemy is in plain view. Protean in form, it extends from the overt menace of nuclear-armed mullahs to the insidious campaigns to have stultifying pseudo-science taught in American schools. But in the past few years, there have been heartening signs of a genuine and spontaneous resistance to this sinister nonsense: a resistance which repudiates the right of bullies and tyrants to make the absurd claim that they have god on their side. To have had a small part in this resistance has been the greatest honor of my lifetime: the pattern and original of all dictatorship is the surrender of reason to absolutism and the abandonment of critical, objective inquiry. The cheap name for this lethal delusion is religion, and we must learn new ways of combating it in the public sphere, just as we have learned to free ourselves of it in private.
Our weapons are the ironic mind against the literal: the open mind against the credulous; the courageous pursuit of truth against the fearful and abject forces who would set limits to investigation (and who stupidly claim that we already have all the truth we need). Perhaps above all, we affirm life over the cults of death and human sacrifice and are afraid, not of inevitable death, but rather of a human life that is cramped and distorted by the pathetic need to offer mindless adulation, or the dismal belief that the laws of nature respond to wailings and incantations.
As the heirs of a secular revolution, American atheists have a special responsibility to defend and uphold the Constitution that patrols the boundary between Church and State. This, too, is an honor and a privilege. Believe me when I say that I am present with you, even if not corporeally (and only metaphorically in spirit...) Resolve to build up Mr Jefferson's wall of separation. And don't keep the faith.
Sincerely
Christopher Hitchens
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/618232-message-to-american-atheists
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 23, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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None of us should have any problem with the Constitutional separation of Church and State. Works both ways. Keeps those of religious faith (of all persuasions) from controlling government, and it keeps government from controlling the right of all people to have personal faith and to practice their personal faith without any interference or control from government.
You shouldn't close your mind . . .
The Physics of Immortality: Modern Cosmology, God and the Resurrection of the Dead:
http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Immortality-Modern-Cosmology-Resurrection/dp/0385467990/ref=pd_sim_b_1
The Physics of Christianity:
http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Christianity-Frank-J-Tipler/dp/B003D7JZC6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303565918&sr=8-1
"From Publishers Weekly
The relationship between science and religion has long been a tenuous one. Some have worked to put these disciplines in "dialogue" with each other, while others have dismissed any possibility of a collegial relationship. To his credit, Tipler, professor of mathematical physics at Tulane University, attempts the former. He proposes that Christianity can be studied as a science, and its claims, if true, can be empirically proven. "I believe that we have to accept the implications of physical law, whatever these implications are. If they imply the existence of God, well then, God exists." After a cogent description of modern physics, Tipler embarks on a crusade to prove that God exists, that miracles are physically possible and the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Jesus do not defy scientific laws. The author's arguments are somewhat intriguing—his knowledge of science seems exhaustive and this may attract other scientists to consider the importance of religion. Many of his theological insights, however, are problematic. Christianity a "science" does not automatically make it so, and Tipler seems to dismiss the centuries-old importance of the apophatic tradition in Christianity, that is, approaching the mystical nature of the Divine by positing what cannot be said about God. Tipler's interest in integrating science and religion is noble, but his method is uneven. (May)"
I haven't read it yet but it looks really interesting. Just found out about PhD Tipler recently. Looking into it and his writings.
TEDx Brussels 2010 - Frank Tipler - The Ultimate Future
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNkuJvhyfP0&feature=player_embedded#at=78
http://129.81.170.14/~tipler/wired.html
http://129.81.170.14/~tipler/body.html
Edit:
No matter what. After all the empirical evidence that can help prove the existence of GOD and that Jesus Christ is Emmanuel - GOD with us, the Christ, The Messiah, and he is who he said he is - "I am" the I am, you still must come to GOD through faith. GOD requires this. Faith in the gift of salvation through the Sacrifice and the Blood of Jesus Christ to cover our sins. There is only one way. You can not do anything to earn it. None of us are worthy. But he loves us. It is a gift from GOD. And the gift is paid for. You just have to accept it. And then we can return to GOD and have a relationship with him again.
Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father but by me." No one can claim this but Jesus Christ.
Happy Easter. GOD lives and his Son Jesus the Christ rose on the 3rd day. Death has no power over him. He is now at the right hand of his Father, to return one day again soon. He gave us the gift to become Children of GOD. Take it.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 24, 2011 - 06:25am PT
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Luke 24:6, "He is not here, but He has risen Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, 7 saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 24, 2011 - 10:03am PT
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Excerpt from Cintune's timely post of Hitchens:
Our weapons are the ironic mind against the literal: the open mind against the credulous; the courageous pursuit of truth against the fearful and abject forces who would set limits to investigation (and who stupidly claim that we already have all the truth we need). Perhaps above all, we affirm life over the cults of death and human sacrifice and are afraid, not of inevitable death, but rather of a human life that is cramped and distorted by the pathetic need to offer mindless adulation, or the dismal belief that the laws of nature respond to wailings and incantations.
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haystacker
Trad climber
martinez,ca
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Apr 24, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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The general population is seriously lacking faith.....In themselves
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10b4me
Ice climber
Happy Boulders
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Apr 24, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
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The same people who believe in god believe in the tooth fairy
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 24, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
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The Ultimate Easter Quiz
By David Fitzgerald
1. When did Jesus get crucified?
a. At the 3rd Hour (9am), on Friday, the morning of Passover.
b. Shortly after the 6th Hour (noon), on Friday, the day before Passover.
c. He didn’t really get crucified, his identical twin Thomas Didymus did.
d. He didn’t really get crucified, he only appeared to be crucified.
e. We don’t know for sure, since the gospels disagree irreconcilably.
2. What supernatural events occurred at his death?
a. An earthquake hits Jerusalem (actually, two); strong enough to break stones.
b. Supernatural darkness covers all the land.
c. The sacred temple curtain spontaneously rips in half.
d. A mass resurrection of all the Jewish holy men, who crawl out of their graves and appear to many in Jerusalem.
e. All of the above, depending on which Gospel you read.
3. What historical evidence do we have for those supernatural events?
a. Every major ancient writer of the time worldwide mentioned them.
b. Many important writers in Judea discuss them.
c. Several writers in Jerusalem mention them.
d. No one mentions them, but we do have archeological evidence for them.
e. There is not a single lick of evidence for any of them, written or otherwise.
4. How many women went to the tomb?
a. Three: Mary Magdalene, James’ mother and Salome.
b. Two: Mary Magdalene and “the other Mary.”
c. Lots: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, James’ mother Mary and other women.
d. Just one: Mary Magdalene.
e. No way to know, since none of the Gospels agree.
5. What did they find there?
a. A young man, sitting inside the tomb on the right.
b. Two men, standing inside.
c. Two angels sitting on each end of the bed.
d. An armed guard of Roman soldiers standing watch, when suddenly a great earthquake occurs, and an angel descends from heaven, his face blazing like lightning and his clothing white as snow; the Roman guards are utterly terrified and all faint dead away; the angel rolls away the stone and sits on it.
e. No way to know, since none of the Gospels agree.
6. What happened after the visit to the tomb?
a. The women ran away in terror and never told anyone what they saw.
b. Jesus appears, is initially mistaken for the gardener, and then is tenderly reunited with Mary.
c. The women tell the disciples, who don’t believe them.
d. Peter runs and beats everyone to the tomb; or possibly gets beaten by one of the other disciples.
e. No way to know, since none of the Gospels agree.
7. Where/when did the risen Jesus first appear to the disciples?
a. On a mountain in the Galilee (60-100 miles from Jerusalem), just as the angel told them he would.
b. We don’t know; we aren’t told anything after the women run from the tomb.
c. He appears to two followers (not disciples) on the road to Emmaus (seven miles from Jerusalem)
d. He materializes in a locked room in Jerusalem as the disciples are at dinner.
e. No way to know, since none of the Gospels agree.
8. When/Where did Jesus ascend back to heaven?
a. Jesus returns to heaven on the same day he arose, right after dinner, from a room in Jerusalem.
b. We don’t know exactly, but it’s at least 8 days after the resurrection, when the despondent apostles have gone back to being fishermen on the sea of Tiberias.
c. After his resurrection, Jesus spends at least 40 days of teaching his disciples in Jerusalem before ascending to heaven from the Mt. of Olives.
d. Jesus didn’t ascend into heaven; he met his disciples in the mountains of Galilee and told them he would be with them always.
e. We don’t really know; Luke is the only gospel writer who actually mentions the ascension.
9. Who wrote these gospels, anyway?
a. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John – I mean, come on, it says so right there.
b. Actually, none of the gospels even claim to be written by eyewitnesses – all were originally anonymous and written at least a generation later.
c. Well, it’s more like the end of first century for Mark and sometime in the early to mid 2nd century for the others, if you must know.
d. Hold on – Not only that, but Matthew and Luke just reworked Mark gospel, adding their own material and tweaking Mark’s text to better fit what they thought it should say.
e. Get this – if all that weren’t enough, all the Gospels have been edited and added to by later editors, and for the first 200 – 300 years, we have no way to determine how faithfully the originals were preserved.
10. Where does the word “Easter” come from?
a. From the Aramaic word for Passover.
b. It originally was “Eastern Holiday” – referring to the Passover celebrated by Jews in the eastern part of the Roman empire.
c. From est ova, Latin for “Where are the eggs?”
d. From an ancient Celtic pun that means both “Bunnies” and “Chocolate.”
e. from Eastre/Eostre, the pagan Goddess of Spring.
Answers in the back of the book:
http://www.skepticmoney.com/the-ultimate-easter-quiz-jesus-gets-nailed/
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 24, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
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But the puddle always returns ......
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Apr 24, 2011 - 09:17pm PT
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so very, very deep
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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If Jesus is the lord of all nature, could one of you Christians ask him to lay off of the tsunamis, the cancer, the heart disease for a while. I mean, good grief, two or three million years of death and destruction is enough already, don't you think? And, yes, it's good to think... Whaddya imagine god gave you a brain for? Speculation is liberating!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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If nature is but a thorny manifestation of original sin, then how does one discern God in nature?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Your not answering the question: if God curses his own creation, "I curse the ground for thy sake" then what part of nature is good and what is bad and how can we possibly say that the beauty of nature, as declared in above poem, is a reflection of God's creative genius or even the reality of his existence?
It is a cursed world after all.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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This all seems to beg another question. If evil entered the world through earthly disobedience then where did evil come from in the first place?
It apparently preceded original sin, as it was a possible repercussion of the act in the garden before it happened.
If evil existed in the universe prior to the original sin in the garden of Eden, evil then surely already existed on earth, earth being a part of the universe and all.
The possibility of disobedience to God is surely a creation of God. How could it be otherwise?
If God created evil as a necessity for the test of "free will" then God is nothing but the great vivisectionist and perfectly evil as well as perfectly good!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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But he'll still play the fear card at the drop of a hat. Big bolshy bastard that he is. Always the implied threat, love me or else. But then, what else can a demiurge do, really.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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IF God created the angels and "gave" them "free will" then he gave them an existing choice: that is the choice between good and evil which by the necessity of the gift existed prior to any creation.
How can we conclude anything except that evil existed in a universe created by a "loving, perfect" God?
The horrors of this world can only be a function of an omnipotent being if that being exists.
Furthermore, an omnipotent being must have known the failure rate with regard to the sin of his creation prior to bringing it into being.
The lynch pin of absurdity in the New Testament is Romans 11:32: "They are condemned that they might be saved."
This is a solipsism that unravels a belief system.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Angels my ass.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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New Heavens and a New Earth
Isaiah 65:17, “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
infants who live but a few days,
or older people who do not live out their years;
those who die at a hundred
will be thought mere youths;
those who fail to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the LORD,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
but dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the LORD.
Looks like the glass is overflowing!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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I thought this question was debated rather elegantly in the movie "Contact".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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naw, that was science
this is fiction
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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They are committed to sin, concluded to unbelief, why? That they may be saved. It's still an oxymoron, in fact it's called Augustine's Oxymoron. Whether speaking of Israel or the gentiles.
It simply begs the question: Why would an omnipotent being create an imperfect creature of any sort. And further, why would he multiply that imperfection as a punishment for the failure of his own creation, essentially God's own failure? How can the perfect creator fail?
For man, humanity's true perfection, according to you, is based on the necessity of evil as part of a choice. Are you telling me that goodness can only exist in the presence of evil as part of a moral choice?
Then isn't evil perfectly necessary for the existence of a perfectly good deity and if this is the case then what exactly can this deity be?
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WBraun
climber
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W Why would an omnipotent being create an imperfect creature of any sort.
Only a fool that can't think for themselves would even think like this.
All creatures are created perfect in every way.
It's you that's projecting your own mental speculations and fantasies onto everything outside of you of what perfection is.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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It's good to know that all creatures are created perfectly. I'll run down to the local hospice and let everyone know. What BS!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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How does not having the choice to do evil make you a puppet? Try and imagine a world where it is impossible to do evil, a world in which the paradigm is not to devour your fellow beings in order to just exist. In fact the paradigms of our universe are built upon a foundation of horrific violence.
I can't believe that some shark in the middle of the pacific is devouring a tuna because somebody ate a piece of fruit in God's garden! Can you?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I can't believe that some shark in the middle of the pacific is devouring a tuna because somebody ate a piece of fruit in God's garden! Can you?
PR,
Evolution happened and happens. The Heavenly Hosts (Angels etc.) were witness to creation. They were created and were here Billions of years prior to modern man who was created in GOD's image came onto the scene in the Garden of Eden.
Lucifer had already along with a 33% of the Angels fell long before. Sin and rebellion against GOD changed all creation and affected all creation. There was a time when the fauna of Earth didn't feed on each other. Fauna at some time were herbivores only. Then rebellion against GOD occurred. Sin occurred. Changed everything. Animals then turned against each other, and evolution continued to bring about carnivorous fauna.
Read:
The Science of GOD, by PhD Gerald Schroeder
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/About.aspx
This occurred long before Adam and Eve. Modern man created in GOD's image was tricked into rebelling against GOD. Because sin didn't originate with us, we were fooled into it or tricked into it, we are given a second chance with GOD through the redemption of his Son Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. That and the fact that he loves us deeply. We were made in his image, just a little lower than the Angels. He loves us so much so that he came down and paid the price and took our place on the cross and was crucified in our place.
That is true love. Would you do the same to save your loved ones? Would you be crucified and hung on a cross if it could save your family? Could you then raise from the dead and conquer death and overcome death and give the World hope of salvation?
Only one could possibly do that. Jesus the Christ, Emmanuel, GOD with Us.
Sometimes, knowing the future helps to understand and clarify the past. This is a great article in that regard:
The Millennial Kingdom Reign of Jesus Christ
Matthew McGee
http://www.matthewmcgee.org/millen.html
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i love klim's little world of scientific orthodoxy. much more entertaining than ed hartouni's, which goes right over my head.
let's see--god creates us naughty-naughty so's he can come along and redeem us. nothing like creating a market for your own services. and a monopoly market at that.
meanwhile, back at that "hell of a good universe next door," it seems that all this old way of thinking has been left at the starting gate. time to rethink, thank, thunk the whole kaboodle. forget your angels, klim. forget your good and bad aliens. the universe has to be a lot better than all that. i just know this.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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weird little passage that Dood put up above... when you think of it as the basis of a scientific test, that we are all descendants of Noah's family...
if you Google "genetics of Noah" the first hit is a creationist web site which states that modern genetic studies affirms the bible stories in Genesis, including the flood. Of course they do no such thing, but it is interesting that the attempt is made to bend the results to support the "Bible hypothesis" and us it as "proof" a misappropriation of the hypothesis testing which can only negate a hypothesis...
The hypothesis is not quite consistent with the interpretation of the data, which you find on the wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test , in particular the map of human migration out of Africa, note that the legend is 1000 of years with the earliest data being 120,000 to 130,000 years ago, starting the migration.
Tony should be happy to dig into this as it is a science topic related to people... and cultures.
The hypothesis that all of us come from Noah can be tested, and unless Noah was an African and the flood happened more than 6,000 years ago, we can pretty much eliminate that hypothesis using genetics.
The Bible story may have value as a parable, but it certainly isn't an accurate history...
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jstan
climber
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If the present is any guide to the past, humans probably migrated out of Africa because conditions there had deteriorated. It came to me that it would have been very interesting to be there. But then for all we know we are going through just such a challenge today. It has all the hallmarks.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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DMT has a point, "Eve" was African as was "Adam"... in a metaphoric sense...
has there ever been such a depiction? I suspect not.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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DMT - really fine critique of what I had to say, thoughtful, intelligent and thorough. Good job.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Somebody put out a call for an oxymoron?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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This "perfect" Gods that some of the people here go on about may be perfect and the plan may be perfect and we and all of creation may be perfect but being an ass and punishing me in hell because I believe all of the perfectly formed evidence of dinosaurs, evolution, a round earth, etc..., seems pretty screwed up. After all, I'm only using my perfect brain in my perfect situation with my perfect observations of science and nature to come to my perfect, and so would say wrong, conclusions.
At least the believers should be able to understand why others do not believe.
Dave
P.S. I once threw a dog off of the top of a building then I punished it because it didn't fly.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Psalm 36:5, Your lovingkindness, O LORD, extends to the heavens,
Your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
6 Your righteousness is like the mountains of God;
Your judgments are like a great deep
O LORD, You preserve man and beast.
7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!
And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.
8 They drink their fill of the abundance of Your house;
And You give them to drink of the river of Your delights.
9 For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Adam and Eve were not white people?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Unless you want to hang the whole dang mess(the fall of man)on a specific skin color/people...
Blame it on God. He created the whole mess in the first place.
Dave
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Or blame it on man. He created God in the first place.
Adam and Eve is such a nice children's story. Like the Easter Bunny and Santa.
No serious adult would be so naive as to truly believe that fairy tale.
And Dood, of course it matters what skin color Adam and Eve were.
They were created in God's own image. So that way we would know if God was black, or white, or Hispanic or even Asian looking.
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WBraun
climber
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HAs nothing to do with color/skin pigmentation, physical stature or facial characteristics, & hair color, texture etc.!
Oh yes it does.
God is person, Male ......
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Blue...
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Bump, to the Lord's mother!
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Happy Mother's Day
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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God likes you Dr. F.
No man or woman has ever cared about you more, no matter what you think.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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May 25, 2011 - 09:41am PT
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 25, 2011 - 10:25am PT
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them balloons about equalize that coffee mill. i'd say he's freeing it.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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May 27, 2011 - 10:46am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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May 28, 2011 - 10:42am PT
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Credit: Daily Readings from the Life of CHRIST, vol.3-John MacArthur
God's love is all in all perfect our first love, we can't do without!
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MisterE
Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
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May 28, 2011 - 08:35pm PT
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Great to see a Juan thread keep on keepin' on.
RIP, Juan.
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shut up and pull
climber
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May 29, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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The fundamental root of the left's animosity towards Jesus and God is simple -- our country was founded upon the belief, as stated in the Declaration of Indpendence, that our individual rights are endowed to us by our Creator, NOT MAN. Liberals (oh, they call themselves "progressives" now), in order to achieve their "utopia" must necessarily crush the invidual in order to create their ideal collective society. Individual rights to a liberal are anathema to their goals. Hence, they must therefore be against God, since he is the one who gave us our individual rights, not the liberals who want to take them away.
Example -- abortion has been seen for thousands of years, in almost every culture, as a mortal sin (i.e., against God). Liberals love abortion since it allows them to easily rectify their free-love/free-sex "mistakes." In order to justify abortion in our culture liberals must destroy the obstacle that is in their way -- God.
A great book I suggest you read is "Witness" by Whittaker Chambers. It deals with this subject quite well.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 29, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
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The American revolution was a profoundly secular and anti christian act!
By revolting against the king, the founding fathers declared the superiority of individual rights and needs over the commandment of God as set down in Romans 13 to obey government leaders that rule by divine right.
Paul declared Christians must obey their government since it is put in place by God himself... and he was talking about folks like Nero!
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 31, 2011 - 10:44am PT
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good point, BK. the "command" to believe and to love--kinda indicates a basic lack of understanding about the nature of believing and loving, don't you think? authoritarian command-and-control applied to something so basically personal, spiritual, even mystical. kinda indicates a basic lack of understanding about the nature of spirituality. often i think that christians are the most un-spiritual gang on the planet. they certainly have produced a society which turns its back on its own religion whenever convenient.
no offense to gobee, who's a nice guy when you meet him personally, but his monologue here represents a basic hard-headed lack of flexibility, the thinking and "testifying" of a robot. gobee is better than that, but he isn't when the subject of his religion comes up.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 31, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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May 31, 2011 - 11:57am PT
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Liberals love abortion...
That has got to be the most screwed up thing I have ever heard. Maybe liberals love freedom to do whatever they want, and maybe liberals love letting a woman do whatever she wants, but loving abortion? I don't think so. That's like saying that conservatives hate civil rights.
Dave
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 31, 2011 - 12:18pm PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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May 31, 2011 - 02:47pm PT
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The fundamental root of the left's animosity towards Jesus and God is simple -- our country was founded upon the belief, as stated in the Declaration of Indpendence, that our individual rights are endowed to us by our Creator, NOT MAN.
The key word is OUR, not YOUR, Creator.
The entire problem with Religions in our country derives from the need to IMPOSE one's religion upon others. Some religions consider it a right and a neccessity to do this. Historically, at the point of a sword.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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May 31, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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Either nothing we do matters or everything does!(other than to us, that is)
God said to rest on the seventh day!(even resting matters)
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Psalm 103
Of David.
1 Praise the LORD, my soul;
all my inmost being, praise his holy name.
2 Praise the LORD, my soul,
and forget not all his benefits—
3 who forgives all your sins
and heals all your diseases,
4 who redeems your life from the pit
and crowns you with love and compassion,
5 who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
6 The LORD works righteousness
and justice for all the oppressed.
7 He made known his ways to Moses,
his deeds to the people of Israel:
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
slow to anger, abounding in love.
9 He will not always accuse,
nor will he harbor his anger forever;
10 he does not treat us as our sins deserve
or repay us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth,
so great is his love for those who fear him;
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.
13 As a father has compassion on his children,
so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him;
14 for he knows how we are formed,
he remembers that we are dust.
15 As for mortals, their days are like grass,
they flourish like a flower of the field;
16 the wind blows over it and it is gone,
and its place remembers it no more.
17 But from everlasting to everlasting
the LORD’s love is with those who fear him,
and his righteousness with their children’s children—
18 with those who keep his covenant
and remember to obey his precepts.
19 The LORD has established his throne in heaven,
and his kingdom rules over all.
20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.
22 Praise the LORD, all his works
everywhere in his dominion.
Praise the LORD, my soul.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Jun 19, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
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Happy Father's Day,
To God who sent His Son Jesus to pay for our bail for all eternity!
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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people belive in god
because they lack the emotional verve and resolve
to manage their own destiny.
faith is a cop out.
a surrender to fear.
a cowardly gesture.
an expression of absolute ignroance.
we come with a flame burning inside of us,
it makes us warm and glow.
life is drawn to it, our flame.
this inherited spark is extinguished
by one's commitment to religion.
those folks appear ghastly and pale.
their presence emits cold.
in hopes of taming creation,
they have bludgeoned to death their own creativity.
f*#king thought zombies, they.
any day i'd rather converse with a tree than religious zealot.
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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Dingus - My Thoughts EXACTLY...saw the title, came here looking to write exactly that as well...sniffle...
We hope you've found peace, Juan.
-Tom
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Wake me up when Emma Thompson gets done "refuting" religion. Maybe at that time we can convince her to explain the awful historical track record of state-mandated atheism.
BTW norwegian's poem lacks a distinctive haute couture despite its poem de jour status .
I "refute" said poem because it is overly emotional, reactionary , and fails to make some critical and necessary distinctions!!
LOL
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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What political party, or even prominent current political person, is advocating "Atheism"
as the official US government non-religion?
non that i know of
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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What political party, or even prominent current political person, is advocating "Atheism"
Give them time ---they'll eventually get around to it.
Besides it currently is too politically disadvantageous to do so.
The statism of the western Left is built upon incrementalism. Unlike the Soviets or Chicoms who were more revolutionary.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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The United States is, by design, a secular democracy. This is the only governing formula so far that enables a peaceful coexistence between those who choose to believe and those who choose not to.
Do you have a specific idea to improve this system? If so, what is that idea?
My second question is in regards to one of your statements - do you believe there is a campaign afoot to amend the Constitution to strike that part of the 1st Amendment that secures religious freedom in this country? If so, can you provide links to such a campaign so that the rest of us may educated ourselves about it?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Atheism to become the US official policy, Ward
but maybe you are right, those pesky 50 million people who vote for Democrats (the left) gather secretly and plot to incrementally introduce Atheism, they being Pagans and all
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Do you have a specific idea to improve this system? If so, what is that idea?
To prevent a slide into state-mandated atheism , for one thing.
plot to incrementally introduce Atheism,
Its not a "plot" per se, but an open jihad on traditional values. In case you haven't noticed?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Specifically, what actions would you propose the government of the United States take, Ward?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Specifically, what actions would you propose the government of the United States take?
It's more a matter of those current morons not doing anything at all ---beyond simply observing the Constitution.( I know---fat chance)
For myself I see it as a matter of convincing people the history and origins of attempts at social engineering that takes the shape we have seen in the modern totalitarian states.
One of the salient features of same has been the outlawing of religion.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Do you believe that the leadership of the United States should not observe the Constitution, ei, that our government should operate outside the rule of law? If so, what specific actions would you like to see our government take outside the rule of law?
Has the government of the United States outlawed religion? If so, how? If not, can you identify a specific movement or campaign that seeks outlaw religion in the United States? How does this movement propose to accomplish this?
If you suddenly found yourself in a position of power - the Presidency, Speaker of the House, or Chief Justice, for example - what action would you take to rectify the harms you see?
And finally, if you are unsuccessful at convincing other people to come around to your viewpoint - if they choose other beliefs and values, are you OK with that?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Its not a "plot" per se, but an open jihad on traditional values. In case you haven't noticed?
curious, Ward, since you see the American "left" as engaging in an open "jhad" on traditional values.....
what traditional values are under such manic assault in this country?
oh wait, you mean "social positions" that you personally disagree with?
like that pesky US Supreme Court making abortion legal decades ago maybe?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Do you believe that the leadership of the United States should not observe the Constitution, ei, operate outside the rule of law? If so, what specific actions would you like to see them take?
My answer to this question is indicated in my above post.
I would never suggest the political leadership in this nation violate our laws---especially Constitutional law, quite the opposite.
Has the government of the United States outlawed religion? If so, how? If not, can you identify a specific movement or campaign to outlaw religion in the United States?
At this moment in time ,as everyone knows, religion has not been outlawed in the US. Whether or not there are "movements " or "campaigns" currently on the scene advocating the eradication of the First Amendment is of no particular interest to me---until or unless they become more visible.
More specifically, if you suddenly found yourself in a position of power - the Presidency, or Speaker of the House, for example - what action would you take to rectify the harms you see?
What specific "harms" that I see?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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the harms being the assault on traditional values, specifically by the political left?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I wasn't able to glean an answer to my first question from any of your posts, Ward. You stated that 'the morons', by which I assume you mean the Federal Government, and perhaps other levels of government (its entirely unclear), are doing the minimum by observing the Constitution. That implied that you feel they should do more than that - ei, take actions outside the Constitution. Am I wrong in any of those assumptions? If so, perhaps you'd like to clarify.
I can determine, from you latest post, that you do not, in fact, believe that religion has been outlawed in the United States, nor are you aware of any movements or campaigns to do so. You've claimed that our country is headed in that direction - the outlawing of religion, the institution of state sponsored atheism. That's why I asked the question. Apparently, you do not actually believe any of those things are actually happening in any measurable, verifiable manner.
I'm actually not sure of what 'harms' you see, Ward - that's why I'm asking you these questions. You're clearly dissatisfied - I'm asking you to specifically identify the source of your apparent dissatisfaction, and what actions you'd like to see taken to rectify them.
Can you articulate that for us?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Do you believe that the leadership of the United States should not observe the Constitution, ei, that our government should operate outside the rule of law? If so, what specific actions would you like to see our government take outside the rule of law?
The answer that I alluded to was:
It's more a matter of those current morons not doing anything at all ---beyond simply observing the Constitution.( I know---fat chance)
Why are you having trouble gleaning anything I have said thus far? I have been rather clear and straightforward .
Are you a trial lawyer? or in training for same?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I must confess that I cannot determine what you actually mean by these statements.
I don't know who 'those current morons' are, for example. You'll admit - it's rather open to interpretation.
Your statement would imply that you want 'those current morons' to do more than simply 'observing the Constitution'.
What more would that be, specifically? And who are 'those current morons' anyway?
Regarding who I am - I'm just someone who speaks English, as are you. I'm not an attorney, nor am I training to become one, if that makes you more comfortable. Let's leave it at that and use our English to have a conversation.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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I must confess that I cannot determine what you actually mean by these statements.
Are you a trial lawyer?
Do you want me to painstakingly walk you through my comments or paraphrase them anew?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Most people will expound on their own ideas when respectfully asked to do so. I have no interest in wasting time with anyone who will not.
You never phrased your ideas to begin with, so to paraphrase them would be impossible.
It's fine. We're done here. I give posters a few minutes to engage - or not. So far, you have not, or will not, do so productively. That's a lost opportunity for you to openly express what you actually believe in a way that others might actually understand. I was genuinely interested in your beliefs and what you wanted to happen - hence my questions. Your responses to my questions were either repetition or dodges. There was one honest answer regarding the outlawing of religion in America - but it directly contradicted a statement you'd made moments before.
Sorry, I prefer more red meat in my exchange of ideas. More articulation, more consistency, more thoughtfulness. After all, life is short.
If you're going to spend the prodigious energy it takes to be angry at something, it helps to be able to articulate exactly what that something is. It also helps to have an idea of what action you'd like to see happen, or better yet, help make happen, so that you may eventually put that anger to rest.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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It's fine. We're done here. I give posters a few minutes to engage - or not. So far, you have not, or will not, do so productively. That's a lost opportunity for you to openly express what you actually believe in a way that others might actually understand.
My friend, I'm not accustomed to arguing with someone who lacks the imagination to infer the clear meaning of my comments , or who thinks they have stumbled upon some sure-fire polemical gimmick of expecting someone to parse and fill in all the spaces. I see it as a transparent attempt ,by yourself, to allow your assumptions to characterize the debate.
By asking if you were a trial attorney I was holding out the possibility that you are less obtuse and more resourceful than you apparently are.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Be well, Ward.
Goodbye.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Be well, Ward.
Look, I can still walk you through my comments , and the thinking behind them---only if you promise to actually listen.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I always actually listen.
I've asked some specific enough questions - and I didn't do it for any other reason than I would like to know your answers to them. They're all still hanging, if you'd like to take a crack at any one of them.
I don't care about any other aspect of who you are outside this conversation - trial lawyer, dog owner, ladies underwear aficionado, dumbsh#t, knowitall - I don't give a rip.
I won't exchange the usual recycled Righty/Lefty barbs - so don't go there if you expect me to continue to hang wicha.
This works both ways. If you ask me something relevant to this discussion, I'll do my best to answer that question as clearly as I can.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Its not a "plot" per se, but an open jihad on traditional values. In case you haven't noticed?
You got that right!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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You got that right!
another country heard from!
you have the floor Blue, please tell us about all those traditional values under assault?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^^ you ever climb at Dreamland?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I believe in the Big Man.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oh you've heard mine before Norton.
I push the strictest of conservatism to the youngest minds.
Knowing that in the end all is forgivable.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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I won't exchange the usual recycled Righty/Lefty barbs - so don't go there if you expect me to continue to hang wicha.
Quit trying to superimpose more of your unwarranted assumptions, it only further clouds the issue at hand---which is common in most debates. The bulk of my political , philosophical, or historical observations are usually disinterested ones.
Look , I'll take your stated desire to seek further clarity at face value and make a general statement of my thinking on this matter , in the interests of time.
Anti-religionist sentiment in the United States has been of interest to me in recent years.(I am an agnostic, BTW). While I understand the historical roots of the rejection of religious culture on an individual basis--- nevertheless what concerns me is the increasingly robust collective group efforts currently afoot to attack the religious life, and spirituality in general.
When one looks closer at the origins of these efforts they seem to be , like most of the featured fronts in the culture wars , associated with a particular political enclave, namely , what has become identified as "progressive" and so on.
Moreover, this enclave tends to draft Science on its side---despite the fact that science is a disinterested investigation of nature and nothing more.
The progressive left is also associated in modern times with an unprecedented growth in government, a concentration of power in a political class, and largely socialist type principles; and other features that look , to the detached observer, like Deja vu all over again, and invite the immediate drawing of historical parallels.
When representatives of the progressive intellectual class ( including Marx) in the late 19th and early 20th centuries gathered to sip coffee in cafés throughout Europe and plot the demise of the ancien regimes they had no idea their formulations would ultimately lead to Stalin or the murder and imprisonment of political and religious opponents, or the official outlawing of religious life.
They were progressives after all, concerned only with the salvation and emancipation of mankind from the shackles of the centuries. They did not represent any identifiable group that anyone could point to, nor were they elected or appointed government functionaries. And yet their progressive ideals ,among other draconian results ,led to the closing of Churches throughout Russia, and later to those in Eastern Europe.
I have to cut this short . I gotta go. Thanks for listening.
Much more needs to be said. Maybe later...
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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It seems that a lot of anti-religious sentiment today stems from certain sects - most famously the Mormons, Catholics, and Fundamentalist Christians (although not limited to these 3) very active and well funded campaigns to
a) Deny equal marital rights to all Americans (The now defunct DOMA and its many state level counterparts)
b) Deny family planning services to all Americans, but most particularly to poor women. Catholic owned hospitals - 20% of all hospital beds in America, and a whopping 45% in my home state of WA, deny all family planning services - contraception and abortion - in violation of the ACA and state statutes. Why is the Catholic church able to gobble up so many other hospitals and therefore own so many beds? A huge competitive advantage called the religious tax exemption. Hmmm. That sounds an awful lot like State sponsored religion to me.
c) Require religious indoctrination, ie, Creationism, to be taught in public schools, at the expense of real science education, and in flagrant violation of the 1st Amendment. This effort, not-so-cleverly rebranded as 'intelligent design', fortunately met defeat in the SCOTUS. The campaign is far from dead, however.
Also, the Catholic Rape Camp system and many decades long cover up didn't help much.
Religion brought this opposition on itself by becoming increasingly involved in its attempts to force specific religious doctrine into public policy, that is, on all of us, regardless of our beliefs.
It would seem to me that all three of grievances are legitimate and the ire they generate very well deserved.
I don't deal with 'isms' or 'ives. I don't much care what the 'progressives' - whoever that might be, are up to because, lets face it, the BogieMan or ConjureWoman is up to whatever you need them to be up to to validate your desired emotional response. I focus on specific actions - THIS GROUP IS FUNDING THE PASSAGE OF THIS LAW. I like to keep it simple that way. If the Evangelicals want to believe that Jesus rides a Harley, I couldn't care less. When they want to prevent a certain group of Americans from marrying the person they love - that's when I get off the couch.
I won't address Marx or Stalin. Although too often trotted out in these discussions, neither are relevant, at all, to the struggle between religious and secular governance in America today. There may be statistical similarities between the USA and Russia today - our incarceration rates, nuclear arsenals, and spying on our own citizens rank #1 and #2 in the world, for example, those have little to nothing to do with religion in any real sense.
There is copious evidence that the State has sponsored religion too much in this country (the above is the tip of a much larger iceberg) - and scant evidence to the contrary. Moving towards a more secular democracy, as codified in the Constitution, is arguably the best available way to ensure that the beliefs are all Americans, as well as the law, are respected in a fair manner.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
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re: Vonnegut... and (only) an eye for an eye
kurt vonnegut had an interesting note on hammurabi. he said most people think "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is the old testament ethic and that it has been replaced with the new testament ethic of "turn the other cheek". "eye for an eye" is actually an old testament quotation of hammurabi's code, which was well-known at the time, and hammurabi's sense is "ONLY an eye for an eye, ONLY a tooth for a tooth--don't take more".
a very humane code. so many christians so often take more. you can only keep turning that other cheek so long. -Tony Bird
...
Speaking of Kurt Vonnegut...
"I want to stay as close to the edge as I can without going over. Out on the edge you see all kinds of things you can't see from the center."
Curious thing, only one other here at ST has cited this. I was thinking there would be more.
Ontos... 2007...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=463725&msg=467000#msg467000
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:46pm PT
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HFCS, You are a premier pot stirrer (note: euphemism alert). Why did you resurrect this?
As to the OP question -
Because people are afraid of the principle of cause and effect and don't like the idea of having to take responsibilty for themselves.
There..
Oh, and science doesn't cover all the ground...
;-)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 22, 2016 - 10:19pm PT
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There have always been skeptics.
The God shaped hole
Is a scar
Inflicted on children
By the irrational
Indoctrination.
And because the unknown is pretty big.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2016 - 10:33pm PT
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 22, 2016 - 10:46pm PT
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Flipper^^^are you trying to sound intellegent?
most indoctrinated kids, as you put it. Never experience god, good example is our strange bedfellow friend Fruitless. You can teach a kid for 10yrs how to paint a car, but until he tries it he don't know sh#t. NWIM?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 22, 2016 - 10:57pm PT
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2016 - 10:46pm PT
Flipper^^^are you trying to sound intellegent?
Intelligent
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 22, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
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I wish Tvash was still posting here he atleast had some originality.
You bash the slip of a thumb, deep dude. Deep
Go ahead and get off the bus now your rides ova
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2016 - 06:28am PT
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Why do so many people believe in God?
Lack of imagination.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 25, 2016 - 06:30am PT
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Why do so many people believe in politicians?
Haven't they learned?
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:45am PT
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Being an atheist is difficult
Faith in science is a more of an acceptance that we can constantly be proven wrong
Whereas having faith in a god is believing that there can be no other belief
I'm alone as a thinker in my clan
Building my resolve
With the understanding that in some circles I will be ostracized
And that some are so threatened by my atheism that they become indignant
Judged by those who claim a love of God above all else
Forsaking their own humanity and all the world
The essence of all life
Exchanged for a promise of deliverance
From the life that we perpetuate
It's hypocritical beyond all reason
Now unload you faithful minions upon me with your derision
Or walk away
And hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil
Maybe it's not so easy to do?
So I expect to be unaccepted
And in that respect
Life rarely disappoints
-bushman
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:58am PT
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^^^^ Or, as Richard Feynman once said:
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."
Curt
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:59am PT
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Why do so many people believe in God?
Lack of imagination.
Makes me feel sad. Causes me to believe that you haven't met some of the amazing people that I have. I have of course met many people who believe in God and lack imagination, but I have also seen many atheist who lack imagination. I see atheism as a lack of imagination as they can only experience what is put smack dab in front of their face. They can't imagine anything beyond themselves. And if they do try and it doesn't respond like a magic genie in a bottle, then they get mad. They often get stuck in what they believe God should be like, rather then what God is like. But then of course so do many who believe in God. LOL.. That seems to be the nature of many people, both believers and non believers.
Forsaking their own humanity and all the world
man is in his infancy of knowing himself and God. You judge based on the lowest common denominator.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 25, 2016 - 08:01am PT
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Why do so many people believe in God?
Lack of imagination.
Lack of imagination and not credible information? People who don't believe in (a) God may seriously lack recognition of their own imagination.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 08:05am PT
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I miss him too Dingus. I learned a lot from him. I wish that I had been able to help him get past the darkness, but I was still in the grip of my own.
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Al Barkamps
Social climber
Red Stick
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Aug 25, 2016 - 09:01am PT
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....and what truth us that?
That, according to Christians, he's "burning in hell" for having ended is own life?
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Aug 25, 2016 - 09:08am PT
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"I like your christ, I just don't like your christians" - Gandhi
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Aug 25, 2016 - 09:25am PT
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But I believe all of us, upon our death, will know all the answers. Is it so wrong to seek answers and then more questions about the meaning of existence and the origin of the universe while we're still living, if we are more concerned about the quest for knowledge than the possible existence of the hereafter?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 25, 2016 - 09:39am PT
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But I believe all of us, upon our death, will know all the answers.
Where is the fun in that? Boring eternity and not logical.
Is the Supreme going to change tactics and lay it all out? How did you get that idea? I think you have an incorrect assumption as to the depth of the Creator's intellect.
I would say, "We may begin to spend millenniums scratching the surface of understanding some of the answers."
Respect the depth of it all.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 09:56am PT
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So what exactly is this God that so many people believe in?
I seriously doubt you can even agree on what it is.
why do you need everyone to agree on what God is?
Have you heard the parable of the blind men and the elephant?
This gives a reasonable version of it, though there are other ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:05am PT
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Its a parable.. try to look deeper. Human's understanding of God is "like" a group of blind men touching an elephant.
And at the same time, yes, there are aspects of God that are absolute. Such as "God is Love". That is an absolute, though man interprets that through his or hers lower mind and rarely reaches high enough to even mildly grasp what Love really is. And so man often gets it wrong. Just as a child often gets the parents love wrong. Wah.. you won't let me eat ice cream for breakfast. And so the child believes the parent doesn't love it. In the perspective of God, humans, even adult humans, are much like children.
Especially their belief about an eternal hell. There is no such thing. That would be intensely cruel.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:16am PT
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atheism as a lack of imagination as they can only experience what is put smack dab in front of their face. They can't imagine anything beyond themselves. And if they do try and it doesn't respond like a magic genie in a bottle, then they get mad. They often get stuck in what they believe God should be like, rather then what God is like
I think that proves my point. If you really have such a limited view of what atheists think, at least going by what you have written here, then truly you lack imagination. Go ahead and stretch your brain, you won't break it! And you don't need an imaginary friend to hold your hand.
It's okay to take personal responsibility. If there was a god, wouldn't it want you to do so?
The universe is infinite. There is more going on than we can ever comprehend. There is no need to limit it by assigning it to the work of "God."
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:20am PT
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I don't doubt hell Moosedrool. I am saying that Christians understanding of eternal hell is false. Hell is a creation of mans lower mind. It was not created by God, and thus is not eternal. We put ourselves in hell by our choices.
...
Aw Jaybro.. you misread me. That is not my only understanding of atheists. I know many atheists, and many of them have active imaginations.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:23am PT
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Well, you can count me in as an atheist with an active imagination...I look at Locker's picture above, and my mind starts a-wanderin'....
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:29am PT
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Native Americans have multiple gods. When they would see something that they did not understand the would credit a god for it. When the missionaries came along the Indians willing accepted the white mans god as yet another god, they saw no need to bicker about which god was more powerful. This frustrated the missionaries and let to much retribution. Sadly we marginalized the Indians and their beliefs, but in reality had we learned from and adopted their wisdom the world would be a much better place.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:30am PT
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Maybe, John M, but you used my answer, " lack of imagination" which says nothing about whether God exists or not, and used it as a reason to write up a Strawman about atheists.
I really don't think I misread you.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:32am PT
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The universe is infinite. There is more going on than we can ever comprehend. There is no need to limit it by assigning it to the work of "God.
God is infinite therefor the material universe is the inferior energies of God. The spiritual world is the superior energies.
The chimpanzee DNA is over 98% same as ours
The shows brainwashing and the worst poor fund of knowledge.
DNA is NOT the living person.
The difference between a chimpanzee and human is their respective soul and consciousness.
Stoopid modern scientists think DNA is the living entity/person.
This why gross materialists become atheists, poor fund of knowlege of the living entity itself and the source of life itself.
Life comes from life, and life is eternal .......
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:34am PT
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I'm atheist, a scientist. I sure see things beyond what is all up in my grill, it would be hard to be do my job if I didn't believe that there are all kinds of chemicals and contaminants in the wastewater coming out of factories and WWTPs. A lot of times, it looks perfectly clean and is not.
I took a bunch of LSD in college and that cured me of any of this old man with a beard in the sky nonsense.
I asked our old pastor why if his god was an all knowing all powerful and loving god, he would allow things like child rape, or bombing that blew up little kids to happen. "He works in mysterious ways". Yeah, that's a fkin copout. Have fun with your make believe sky-man, pastor I'm not down with any god that lets that stuff happen.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:44am PT
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but you used my answer, " lack of imagination" which says nothing about whether God exists or not,
Your response says nothing about whether god exists or not? I find that genuinely hard to believe. And I have nothing against you Jaybro. Though you seem to have something against me as you try to belittle me as though I have not the imagination to believe the humans are not powerful in some manner. I believe that humans are infinitely powerful because we are children of God. That makes us so much more then what atheists believe. Which is that we end when our bodies die. There isn't much imagination in that.
But you say your statement was not about whether God exists or not.
Okay.. but I don't accept that. You are kidding yourself if you believe that. And by the way, I am sorry if some who believe in God have hated on your because you do not believe in God. I believe that I have not ever hated on you in any fashion. So please do not lump me in with everyone.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:46am PT
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Coach, you asked one man about his beliefs in God, and didn't like the mans answers, and so gave up on God? Huh.. what kind of scientist gives up after one failure?
Edit: and before you and Jaybro get upset with me. I happen to think both of you are quite good people. Though you haven't posted as much as Jaybro has.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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So many people use surprisingly weak justifications to back their position.
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anita514
Gym climber
Great White North
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:52am PT
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 25, 2016 - 10:57am PT
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I took a bunch of LSD in college and that cured me of any of this old man with a beard in the sky nonsense.
Love the scientific deduction. ^^^^
How does God avoid detection and the 6:00 news?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 25, 2016 - 11:19am PT
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I've believed for a long time many people believe in God because of fear of death. If death is the end of our existence it's very scary/depressing to many of us. If you believe in God and heaven (or other belief system with life after death) I imagine it can take a huge weight of your shoulders.
Mark Force:
Because people are afraid of the principle of cause and effect and don't like the idea of having to take responsibilty for themselves. That is probably a factor as well. Especially for the people who do bad things and take confession and get to clean their slate, or people who justify terrible/evil actions (like terrorists) by convincing themselves God wants it. I don't know if there is a God but I really believe if there is he/she is good and wants people to act in good ways, not evil ways.
But some people may have simply experienced things that I have not so I'm not one to discount what they have seen/felt that I haven't. I also am a big advocate of reason. I can't disprove God exists, so I'm an agnostic atheist, meaning I doubt there's a personal God, but I don't have proof there isn't so I'm not claiming I know one way or the other. But I know other people promote belief instead of reason and belief doesn't jive as well with uncertainty so they profess to know the "truth" and talk in absolutes and certainty. Maybe they see/know something I don't, but it comes across as condescending and/or insecurity when they speak like other people are stupid for not believing what they believe. It sure doesn't make me think they know what's really going on when they act like that.
I wonder if there's something in our brains that is just different so we have a different propensity to believe. Like some people are more likely to be alcoholics I wonder if some people are more likely to believe in God (not equating those in any way just showing an example). I've been to churches and have prayed and opened my heart up to God and didn't hear/feel anything other than the universe is good and amazing and I am incredibly lucky (along with all of us) to be here, to think, to have this beautiful, bountiful Earth, and if there is a God it's beyond my grasp what that truly is.
I had a change of heart and started thinking about God as whatever created the universe instead of just a personal God (A personal god is a deity who can be related to as a person instead of as an impersonal force, such as the Absolute, "the All", or the "Ground of Being"). It could be a superior being (which would be nice but I don't see any evidence of that) or it could just be the laws of physics and all the energy/matter that enables all of this. Now I am no longer offended when I hear things like One Nation Under God or In God We Trust, because I take it as one nation under the universe, or yes I trust the nature and reason of God more than men who can be corrupt. I'm not saying whether or not I think those terms should be part of American governmental function, I'm just saying they mean something different to me now and I don't find them as exclusionary as I previously did.
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Coach37
Social climber
Philly
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Aug 25, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
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"Coach, you asked one man about his beliefs in God, and didn't like the mans answers, and so gave up on God?"
Come on now John, that wasn't my point. My point was, any "god" that allows the things I described, is nothing I want anything to do with. It wouldn't have mattered what the old pastor said, I just asked him because I was trying to make a point to him. That his "god" wasn't any of the things he preached from the pulpit, unless you can reconcile an all knowing, all loving god, with child rape, kids getting cancer, kids getting blown apart or orphaned due to some other religious nuts setting off bombs.
then they excuse all the mental gymnastics required to believe this crazy stuff by saying nonsense like "faith" or "works in mysterious ways". It's 3rd grade imaginary friend stuff.
Religion is all a power play to control people. Always has been, always will be. and you guys knocking the LSD, what do you think all those religious epiphanies of prophets came from back in the ancient desert? Hallucination states, that's what. Whether peyote, or mushrooms, or ergot fungus, or just mediating and fasting alone for long amounts of time. They were trippin out man.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
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t. My point was, any "god" that allows the things I described, i
I agree with you that that particular definition of God is not a very good one.
What if there was a different one? Could you wrap your mind around a different picture?
In this world there are basically two different ways that a child ends up raped. It is either their personal karma, brought on from previous lifetimes, or it is world karma. One decides to take on world karma before their lifetime. So in either case, a choice was made that led to that rape. God does not allow anything to happen to us that was not a part of our original decision. That is the part most people have trouble with. We were not originally created in this mess. We, each and every one of us, chose at some point to help create this mess. Either through arrogance, or anger, or pride. And it does not become this way through one choice, but through lifetimes of choices. I repeat. It does not become the mess that we currently have, such as rape of anyone, through one choice, but through lifetimes of choices. This planet has experienced many dark ages and many golden ages. We are currently coming out of a dark age. but we have a ways to go to reach a golden age.
If you can understand this, then you can see how it is that on the one hand, God could stop all rape, but then that would mean that we did not have free will and would in essence end up as robots. The consequence of free will is that poor choices can be made. If one does not turn away from the guiding hand of God, then those poor choices can be forgiven and no harm will happen. But if one, over a long period of time, choses to turn from God, then God allows us to experience the consequences of those choices. That is the basis of free will. There is no free will without consequences.
Of course, one has to believe in reincarnation to find this understanding and many do not. Plus one has to belief that we have free will. and some here do not.
That is one of the attractions of climbing. It has consequences. If you were always saved from your poor choices, then the challenge would be gone. It would be like a permanent top rope. I'm sure that most of you would grow bored with a permanent top rope.
There is so much more then saying.. "God allowed it". I hope that you can see past that.
I understand that these are difficult concepts to accept. Especially if one is steeped in disdain for any belief in God. I simply offer this to you as an answer beyond.. "God is mysterious". And isn't that the true nature of a scientist. To seek answers. And then test them to see if they are true?
We are of course testing every day our disbelief or belief in God. We do this every day in our lives with our choices.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:18pm PT
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Karma eh?
I didn't read anything about that in the Bible, in fact according to it, you only get one chance.
So John, are you saying you are not a Christian?
Because reincarnation is Not a Christina principle.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:22pm PT
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In this world there are basically two different ways that a child ends up raped. It is either their personal karma, brought on from previous lifetimes, or it is world karma.
Sorry but I see that as an example of blaming the victim. I see "previous lifetime" or "world karma" as very far fetched compared to the simple explanation that the perpetrator was simply acting very evil. And the victim was simply a victim and usually did nothing to contribute.
Maybe God gave us freewill and he wants to allow things to run their course, or maybe the devil / evil is controlling the perpetrator. But to assign blame to the victim is a cop out and counterproductive in my eyes.
If people acting evil like Dictators live a rich and spoiled life does that mean they had good karma from a previous life? I don't buy that, they wouldn't be good, then come back as evil.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
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Craig, Jesus taught karma. Its simplest form is "you reap what you sow". Though the bible contains few detailed teachings on Karma. At the time of Jesus there were many teachings/books that taught karma.
Reincarnation was also an accepted part of Christianity before the 6th century. All teachings in Christianity on reincarnation were removed during the 6th century at the Fifth general council of the Church. The emperor at the time, Emperor Justinian, forced the council to remove them. At one point he even jailed the Pope at that time, Pope Vigilius,, to try and get him to agree.
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
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DMT, I am fairly certain that I have never disdained your disbelief. Edit:, If I have, then I apologize. I was speaking more generally. On the Taco, any belief in God faces considerable disdain. Many here call any teaching about God "fairy tales".
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
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Karma eh?
I didn't read anything about that in the Bible, in fact according to it, you only get one chance.
I take It you haven't actually read the bible.
Galatians 6:7 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Job 4:8 - Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
Galatians 6:8-9 - For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Proverbs 26:27 - Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Matthew 7:12 - Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[/QUOTE]
Pretty much everything in the Old Testament from the fall of Adam and Eve, to the murder of the first borns, to the Babylonian captivity is about Karmic consequences.
And in the New Testament, repentance pretty much resets the table. Read PAUL.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 25, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
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WRONG
Sow and you will reap means you get to go to heaven
and then that's it, no more human lives
You get one chance to submit your life to Jebus, and be a servant for God
You sow good seeds, go to heaven
sow bad, go directly to HELL!
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:11pm PT
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Stoopid modern scientists think DNA is the living entity/person.
No, they don't.
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
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I see atheism as a lack of imagination as they can only experience what is put smack dab in front of their face...
There is perhaps some truth to this, but you need to realize that your statement can be reworded as:
"Atheism is a lack of belief in the imaginary and belief in the observable."
The meaning is the same, but the connotation is quite different.
Curt
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:22pm PT
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The reason given by the devout to the less than devout is, among others, always,
John3:16
Hey! Goyle!
I need ta kno?
How'd it go?
Rock on!
Ainta5.14!
I laugh - still ~ brwahahh !
Good to you to!
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:26pm PT
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Sorry Craig. there is no permeant hell. If you eat too much, you get fat. That is hell.
So John, are you saying you are not a Christian?
Because reincarnation is Not a Christina principle.
Craig, I will answer this more fully. I fully believe that I am a Christian. But more then a few modern Christians have called me a heretic for my beliefs and I do not identify with many modern Christian beliefs.
I do not accept that the bible is the inerrant world of God. I believe parts of it are the inspired word of God, but that is different then inerrant. That alone gets me tossed out of most current Christian churches.
I believe in reincarnation, which I believe was a part of early Christianity.
I believe that we are all called to put on the full mind of Christ, and thus all can become the Christ. And that there have been many Christs on this planet. Jesus and Buddha to name two. When Jesus said that he was the only son of God, he was speaking figuratively, not literally. A lot of the bible is figurative.
And when Jesus speaks about the way.. he is talking about putting on the Christ mind and doing away with the carnal mind. So anyone who puts on the full mind of Christ is/knows the Way and has thus become The Christ. The Way is the way to life eternal. Life eternal is not in this physical body, but does have a spiritual body.
I do no accept that there is an eternal hell or that God condemns us to it. I believe some verses in revelations have been changed to reflect an eternal hell. I do believe that there is a death of the soul, called the second death, where a soul meets its end if it has not followed The Way. Fallen angels such as Lucifer have been taken to the second death. But it is not eternal hell. It is the dissolving of that being to the point where that identity no longer exists. There is no reason for God to torment a part of His/Her creation in hell for eternity. At the same time, evil and those identified with it will not be allowed to exist forever. So they are sent to the second death.
Cheers Craig, I can see by your Jebus statement that you are not serious about understanding my beliefs, so cheerio..
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
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John M,
I am interested in your a*#ertion that early Christianity accepted reincarnation. What is the basis for that? John the Baptist and Elijah?
Other than Jesus, I am not sure there is a reincarnation tradition.
Just curious.
Edit
Funny how ST turns a normal word into an expletive ;-)
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 25, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
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Fascinating John M. Really . I fully apologize for saying you lacked imagination. In a lot of ways, that's similar to what I believe as an atheist. Though I take a more poetic interperetation of eternal life...
And Dr fry, I really liked your assessment of the reap/ sow litany. I just try to keep in mind, " you plant ice and you harvest wind." More practical than religious....
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:01pm PT
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Of course I'm just having fun by posing questions that atheists' will always ask.
I respect most Christians, no problems with me
especially liberal Christians
but if you want to debate, I will ask questions that of course is a sort of a nice troll for a response for a further debate.
It's all fun, I would for sure have a beer with you all
Before Coz died, he was planning a "Kan't We all Get along" Party
Even Norton committed to make it
Right Bro?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
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I believe in the Creator for who can create Life out of nothing, except he who knows all and sees all?
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John M
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
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Thanks Jaybro... I always knew that we had common ground in our belief/disbelief.
Stalhbro asked this question.
I am interested in your a*#ertion that early Christianity accepted reincarnation. What is the basis for that? John the Baptist and Elijah?
Other than Jesus, I am not sure there is a reincarnation tradition.
John the Baptist and Elijah are part of it. But there is more. The Gnostics believed in and taught reincarnation. They were around at the time of Christ, and their teachings were at that time considered to be true teachings. When the bible was put together, their teachings/books were left off. You must know of course that the Bible was not compiled together by Jesus.
then there were two main early Christian Fathers who taught reincarnation. Origen, and Clement of Alexandria. In the 6th Century, the 5th council of churches put together a list of 14 Anathemas for teachings of Origen. For them to go to this length can be interpreted to mean that his teachings were widespread enough that they felt that they needed to do something. What you must also know is that the push to exclude these teachings came from two places. One was high church leaders, another was the emperor at that time. The current pope at that time was against the anathemas and was jailed because he would not go along with it. The church has always had power struggles.
There is more, but I am not an expert on this subject. My teacher taught these things and I believe her.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:26pm PT
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Good for you studly
so no on evolution, never happened.
Did God create every thing on the same schedule that the geological record and biological evolution has chronicled?
what species has God created recently?
will he create new species in the future?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:34pm PT
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You sow good seeds, go to heaven
sow bad, go directly to HELL!
See? I knew you never read the bible.
Acts 3:19
19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 25, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
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You caught me
never read it, and never will
my opinion of it,
completely unreadable, can't make it through a single page
But I study religions, so am quite knowledgeable of the Basic tenants of Christianity on the after life
If you say Karma is a part of Christianity, then it is IN this LIFE,
not a reincarnated life where karma will affect you.
Since in Christianity there is Only One human earth life, you get One Chance,
after death you go to the after life dimension, be it heaven, purgatory, hell, or maybe there other places up there that the bible hasn't described...
But no where in the bible does it say that you will be born back on earth in the future and have your past life karma following you around.
next
And if you say that Karma affects you in this life, then you agree that tornadoes kill Gays and floods purge the un-holy.
Tony Perkens, The Gay bashing Christian Family Hate Inst. or whatever, had his house flooded and destroyed last week in the big Baton Rouge floods.
Trump gave his $100,000 donation to the flood victims directly to Tony Perkens,
I guess he can buy a better house now on higher ground, so maybe he did win God's blessings.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Aug 26, 2016 - 01:15am PT
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completely unreadable, can't make it through a single page
But I study religions, so am quite knowledgeable of the Basic tenants of Christianity on the after life
If you say Karma is a part of Christianity, then it is IN this LIFE,
not a reincarnated life where karma will affect you.
Attention deficit disorder is a bitch. I feel for you. But don't say you understand religions without delving into them. You have no knowledge at all.
I'm not sure how you can study religions without reading the original works and most of what you said about the tenets ( not tenants - those are people living in a structure they rent from somebody else) of Christianity is stuff going on in your own personal head.
And to show you know nothing about what the bible says after life :
"Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."
So, in the NEXT life, not this one. Paul actually doesn't think much of This life.
im pretty sure you have no idea about Vedic Karma and what the Mahabharata says happens to Krishna, either.
Most of the expectations of the New Testament are about what happens after death. Surely you have been to a baseball game...ever wonder what the guy holding up the John 3:16 sign was referring to? Hint: it's not the box score of the game.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 26, 2016 - 03:05am PT
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have you ever heard of the atheist dial-a-prayer?
you call it up and nobody answers.
as you get older, you will notice more coincidences, which are really miracles in which god prefers to remain anonymous,
shoving this stuff down peoples throats does not work, it just causes rebellion, and why deny someone their own journey into spirituality, they will get it sooner or later, hopefully not during the last half hour,
just don't let your dogma get run over by a kharma, but if it happens, i don't mind being on the bus watching, as i am not perfect nor ever will be, other wise i would be god, jus sayin, wtf, over?
listen to William James - Varieties of Spiritual Experience they have it on audio book youtube, might put you to sleep, might wake you up,
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:16am PT
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So, no purpose beyond existing now?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:29am PT
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^no, obvi also looking forward to the next great adventure. or next first human 'sperience on an isolate proud summit. or next orgasm. or nexf sammich. or next greeting of a new day with my smiling ginger-dog daemon. also kinda into the concept of a re-melding with the earth, as my particles leave this eddy of my human sekf and rejoin the superior flow of all things cosmic, freed of this mortal coil - after all, no one gets to die my death but me. no gods, no masters
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:44am PT
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Why debate this????
"Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection."
It doesn't say anything about Reincarnation
No where in the bible does it say that you will be born back on earth in the future with your past life Karma, how many times do I have to repeat myself?
the bible deals with the after life by it being your Reward in Heaven
like it says above in your quote, you are like an angel floating around in spirit world after death, period..........
I love how he accuses me of not know nothing about religion because I haven't read the bible, like it really matters.
You know about religion by what the religious Believe, not what they're ancient scripture say.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:57am PT
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Why do you need one?
DMT
I would like a crutch similar to Gandalf's.
Am I supposed to have a purpose, and a further one? I am so over just existing.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 26, 2016 - 08:08am PT
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Yes
There is No purpose to life
other than breeding and adding your genetic code to the human race pool.
But since we are over populated as a species
most humans should not even bother to breed,
asking the purpose of anything in the natural world makes no sense.
it's like asking what is the purpose of the moon?
It has no purpose, it just exists.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 26, 2016 - 08:36am PT
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Fry, too easy for an overdeveloped conscienceless.
Brave one, you forgot cheeseburger and no such list can be complete without it included.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 26, 2016 - 09:30am PT
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Am I supposed to have a purpose, and a further one? I am so over just existing. Then get on it! It's your job to build something beyond your own life. Only You can do it.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 26, 2016 - 10:42am PT
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No skipt. Except for a class here and there.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Aug 26, 2016 - 11:22am PT
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It is amazing that all of these atheists seem to be fairly moral people. Many of them even seem to have found "purpose" in their lives!
How do they do it without an Almighty, or an almighty book, to tell them what's up.
You guys are talking to God on the sly, aren't you . . .
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Aug 26, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
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After debating on these threads for sometime, I've really reversed my opinion with regard to all this stuff whether on the "What is mind?" thread or the "Religion versus Science thread." I started out as a stone cold atheist ready to smash all religion and now I've come to a couple of conclusions:
It really serves no purpose to convince anyone through reason or rational thought that religion is just foolishness and it's wrong to argue against what some find as their only consolation in this very difficult life, a life in which everyone is eventually touched by the tragic. I know, there are crazy muslims that need to have their faith declared absurd so they'll stop whatever their doing, but they represent a tiny fraction of the millions of believers throughout the world that find great reconciliation through their faith, a faith that serves a very important purpose. I know, you don't need it but others do.
I've also discovered that in the atheism and science I initially fully supported there is a kind of arrogance that makes it impossible to perceive the wisdom found in religious thought, primarily because there is no understanding of the nature of metaphor and what it means. There's great wisdom in ancient texts and religious thought but all the science crowd can see is the ridiculous, literal nature of talking snakes and so on. The inability to understand the function of metaphor and allegory seems outside the realm of the "hard" sciences.
Is there a purpose to our lives? Yes, and that purpose is what we make of it, what we create, how we live our lives, the eudaimonia, the virtue we create: the things that make life worth living. Do these purposes require religion? No. But religion offers a shortcut to understanding and wisdom.
I know these kind of threads are often disparaged as off topic and pointless but I've enjoyed putting ideas into the crucible and over some period of time I've changed my mind.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Aug 26, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
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"clinker, you're the former skipt?"
clinker definitely is not skipt.
EdwardT....now that's a different question.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 26, 2016 - 01:16pm PT
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You know about religion by what the religious Believe, not what they're ancient scripture say.
Yikes. If this was how I learned about Christianity I'd be an atheist by now too.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Aug 26, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
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Amen to that, locker . . . ^^^^
Free the mind!
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Aug 26, 2016 - 02:42pm PT
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2 points:
~ While religious doctrine can inform public policy and legislation, religious doctrine should never become the law of the land. Ever.
~ To coerce any child into a religion is nothing less than psychological violence, and in some cases (as in the FLDS) this leads directly to physical violence.
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John M
climber
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Aug 26, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
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~ To coerce any child into a religion is nothing less than psychological violence, and in some cases (as in the FLDS) this leads directly to physical violence.
Its not the religion. Its the creeps and perverts in the religion. And it doesn't matter which religion you belong to, including the religion of atheism, every religion or group of people has its creeps,bullies and perverts. Including the religion of climbing. I know 2 climbers who were physically abusive to their girlfriends. One of them went to jail for it. There is no climbing organization that one belongs to in order to climb, so there is no way for it to be organized abuse, but the point is simply that abusive people are found everywhere.
so its not about religion causing this or that. Religion is just something a group of as#@&%es saw as something to use to hide in. There is a power structure in churches, and that power can be abused and twisted. There are perverts everywhere. In schools, in governments, in corporations. Fox news is being sued for its corporate policy that allowed women to be sexually harassed.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 26, 2016 - 05:32pm PT
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Most likely NOT a wild guess on my part that you learned about Christianity from your parents(???)...
That's how they most likely learned it too... (Their parents)...
Until that awful cycle is broken and people start thinking and living in REALITY...
the SH!T will continue and ZERO true progress will be made...
JUST my opinion...
Fair enough, I should say if that was how I judged any belief system then I'd have been an atheist long ago. I think it should be judged by its teachings, not by the people who screw them up.
What to teach children is a weird thing. Pretty sure 99% of parents teach their children about what they believe is true. If you believe something as truth it would be odd to not want your child to know about it. If you believe something as truth and that it will improve their lives, and you love them, then it only follows to share it with them but love them no matter what they end up believing. i.e. I'm going to teach my children that doing their best will be good for them rather than telling them they can try hard or not and nobody knows which is better. Who knows... Also, just my opinion.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 26, 2016 - 05:35pm PT
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You people are stoopid and brainwashed yourselves.
I was was born into an atheist family.
Everyone I know is atheist.
Yet I'm God conscious .....
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 26, 2016 - 06:42pm PT
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I was once very into the belief that the same God we all reference was the head of it all
and that a spiritual lifestyle would bring me closer to God
and as I perused it to the furthest reaches,
I realized that it was all in my mind,
I could believe in things then that I would now say
are nothing more than coincidences exaggerated into being something that had meaning.
I worked hard to not become an atheist
But when I looked into the after life as a possibility,
I had to say no,
There is no possibility of an after life if you are able to think about it critically. It's completely an impossibility for any life form to die and then be born again with it's karmic history intact.
and once you come to terms that there is no after life of any sort,
no reincarnation, no heaven, no hell, no nothing other than becoming fertilizer, like every other living thing.
You have revaluate reality with NO after life.
Then you go to the next step, if there is no after life, all hope in God quickly dissipates into a realist reality, there is No God.
No life after death = No God
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jstan
climber
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:12pm PT
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Some people are just born needing to believe in something. It seems god just has invested in the marketing.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:13pm PT
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Choice, is what we were taught
Hate to break it to you, Locker, but you enjoy only the illusion of choice. If living in the land of illusion is what you want, more power to you. But that's what you disparage religionists for doing.
If you want to live in the land of reality (so you say), then it's not even acceptable loose-speak to talk about choice. You are a determined automaton, nothing more.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
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I'd rather be a self-exciting geodynamo than a determined automaton living in a world of illusory choice, and that is for sure. Illusory superiority OTOH, sure sounds and looks ga-rrrrrayyyettt!
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:21pm PT
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You are a determined automaton, nothing more.
So says MB1
I say MB1 couldn't pass the Turing Test
pure predictable talking points
with a wall of gabber about how the automation is the authority on all subjects that the automation has up loaded.
and as a last note
Locker does make choices
and no one will make them for him
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:26pm PT
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Hate to break it to you, Locker, but you enjoy only the illusion of choice. If living in the land of illusion is what you want, more power to you. But that's what you disparage religionists for doing.
If you want to live in the land of reality (so you say), then it's not even acceptable loose-speak to talk about choice. You are a determined automaton, nothing more.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 26, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
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Locker, do you make choices or not?
I wonder if he thinks I can make choices?
probably not
Who among us can make choices???
just like WB, only he has the keys to the universe.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 26, 2016 - 08:10pm PT
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So says MB1
So says science, which is your religion.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 26, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
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Apparently, I don't...
Not to worry. We all live within our preferred delusions.
Whatever it takes to get you through the day....
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 26, 2016 - 08:14pm PT
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So science has determined you to be an automation, without choice or free will.
I guess it's easy to get through a day being an automation.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 26, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
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So science has determined you to be an automation, without choice or free will.
No, science has demonstrated that you are an automaton with only the illusion (delusion) of free will.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 26, 2016 - 08:18pm PT
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So you are the only one that has free will
and you say I don't, that I am an automation.
what is your proof that confirms this statement?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Aug 26, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
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That's Sci_nce to you, good sirs.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 26, 2016 - 09:07pm PT
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what is your proof that confirms this statement?
That's a malformed question.
Science can neither prove nor confirm anything.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 26, 2016 - 09:08pm PT
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That's Sci_nce to you, good sirs.
I might be incorrect, but I think you meant "Sci-nce." LOL
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Aug 27, 2016 - 07:41am PT
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Blush, blush, thou lump of foul malformity [sick]
-WS
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 27, 2016 - 08:16am PT
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Personally, I choose not be an atheist and accept no(naught) for an answer.
The majority of my acquaintances consider themselves agnostics. Among a few of them "science" is being used as a final stop for continued philosophical query.
Has science(at it's current fetal stage), already eliminated the question of the existence of God? Through science we inquire and explore our bodies, minds, the elements, this planet and the universe. We find healing of disease and sustenance, possibly habitable worlds, ways to catalog vast amounts of information in increasingly smaller spaces. We collectively can be so smart.
We may yet discover God. A few millennia, give or take after the discovery of a workable warp drive.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 27, 2016 - 09:05am PT
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Has science(at it's current fetal stage), already eliminated the question of the existence of God?
all scientific enquiry into the existence of a God has proved that God can not be found or communicated with
nor has God done anything on earth that can determined to be the product of God's direct or indirect action.
I looked for him as well
By proxy, science has determined that it's more highly probable that God does not exist than the possibility of the existence of a God.
If God can't be found, and has not done anything that can be scientifically investigated, you can assume that God is all in the mind of the believers.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Aug 27, 2016 - 09:23am PT
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Everyone needs a hobby
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 27, 2016 - 09:42am PT
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Why do so many people believe in God?
Because he's the truth, and the 'light'. And he guides us through the darkness. He is love.
http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/catholic/interview-with-an-exorcist.aspx?
Father Gary Thomas discusses why demons attack us, why they are envious of God's love of us, and how we can defend against them. And he's the first to caution you that while most cases of demonic possession are not that, "If people saw what I saw, they’d be at church every single week." Fr. Gary Thomas.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 27, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
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Two sentences by the same person.
Who is pointing out the absurdity of what empiricists believe.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Aug 27, 2016 - 12:44pm PT
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Devolvement by threa...
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 27, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
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people want to be right, their ego would not like it if it found out that all their life they had been wrong,
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 27, 2016 - 09:19pm PT
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If your God shows up please tell him that his idea of "Hide and Seek" is dumb.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 28, 2016 - 01:27am PT
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that sounds like contempt prior to investigation,
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 28, 2016 - 06:53am PT
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If your God shows up please tell him that his idea of "Hide and Seek" is dumb.
Lose, lose. Show up and it's Micro-manager. Macro-micro-manager?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 29, 2016 - 11:55am PT
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"physicists at the time didn’t understand"
what about the stuff we thought we understood but is now wrong?
like the electron being the smallest particle,
they keep splitting atoms and they keep finding new particles, when do you think that is going to end?
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Aug 29, 2016 - 04:49pm PT
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We believe in God because we believe stuff. True stuff, false stuff, stuff we used to believe was true but now believe is false, stuff we used to believe was false and now believe is true. Whatever stuff. It's how we work.
I try to flap my wings and fly but I just can't do it. But when I try to convince myself that what I believe is true, however near or far fetched it is, whatever it is, it's like I'm a fish in water.
59% of likely voters believe that the way Trump talks appeals to bigotry. A majority or plurality of every demographic measured (other than republicans) agree that the way Trump talks appeals to bigotry - democrats, independents, men, women, white people with and without college degrees, every age group, whites and nonwhites alike - agreed that Trumps words appeal to bigotry. But only 29% of Republicans believe it, because now he's their God.
I prayed to Jesus and then he filled my gas tank. Climate change is a liberal hoax.
Ok, sure, yea I do that too, in my own way ... Yea, it's kind of embarrassing, but what's a human to do?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 29, 2016 - 05:01pm PT
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some get spiritual because they see the light,
others because they feel the heat,
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Aug 29, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
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Here's something I read today that makes sense to me anyway.
Simone Weil, whose religious philosophy weaves Plato with the New Testament and shows a scrupulous concern with the material world, writes in Gravity and Grace,
“The mind is not forced to believe in the existence of anything…the only organ of contact with existence is acceptance, love. That is why beauty and reality are identical. That is why joy and the sense of reality are identical.”
If God is the ultimate transitional object, occupying an intermediate space between our subjective experience and external, measurable reality, so be it. God is both transitional object and provider of the re-enchanting holding environment we all still need
To live is to be in transit, moving as we do between fleeting people and moments. One option is to let the Great Big, Very Real Disappearing Act make us seek escape in the deadening pendulum swing from private anxious fantasies to external distractions.
Another option is to trust that with repeated exposure, the signs and wonders of religion—undeniably tarnished by abuse and neglect—can become less rote, more real. And with its increasing vividness, the imagined world that takes shape inside our brains can draw us more fully out into the world of hurting, in-transit humans, who need as much real presence and attentive holding as we can pass along.
http://religiondispatches.org/the-meaning-of-make-believe-why-religion-doesnt-have-to-be-real/?utm_source=Religion+Dispatches+Newsletter&utm_campaign=046ffb4729-RD_Weekly_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_742d86f519-046ffb4729-84561257
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Aug 29, 2016 - 05:08pm PT
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Yea I'd say that people form beliefs about why people get spiritual. But if you can't convince yourself to believe your own beliefs are true, however wacky or wrong they are, then you're a defective human. What we see in human belief creation processes today is the result of survivor bias, not the omniscient omnipotence of human thinking. IMHO :-)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Aug 29, 2016 - 05:29pm PT
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There's only one thing I know
For sure.
Is that I don't know anything
For sure.
I'm not quite certain of that.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Aug 29, 2016 - 07:38pm PT
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I thought I knew a few things before I started on these God Mind Religion Science threads. Now I realize I know less and less but so does everyone else if they're honest. And so the quest continues.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 29, 2016 - 08:02pm PT
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Tonight let's combine 1 part science with 20 parts fiction. Hand me the remote.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Aug 29, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
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Nicely said. To be honest, I dont think that our evolutionary ancestors' environment favored them being honest with themselves. As we gain more information, I think that tips the balance of advantage more towards more honesty with ourselves and our beliefs, but we fight against our own inherited 'lack of wings' to believe it.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Aug 29, 2016 - 08:45pm PT
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My wife has an inherited form of catholicism that has somehow conditioned her to practice going about living her life unfettered by formal religious rituals. She believes in God just in case and never dwells on the particulars or talks about the details of her beliefs.
I on the other hand am an extreme spiritual cynic, rebellious and conflicted about any belief system outside of science, but am also extremely septical of the long term ecological effects of corporate, industrial, and military applications of such science.
We don't agree on a lot, but combined, we somehow make up for each other's weaknesses and at the same time we tolerate each other's particular variety of irrational philosophy.
To have faith in something is also not exclusively a human experience by my estimation.
I don't believe its anthropomorphizing to say that dogs not only understand much of our basic language, but in some instances, I think they have faith in us and believe that we look out for their welfare and best interest.
It's a stretch, but I've seen stranger things.
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omclimber
Mountain climber
Soquel
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Aug 30, 2016 - 08:00am PT
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CorporateDogReligion may well have sprung from a sincere proto-human desire for explanation of an amazing world - but a few thousand years of dubious human interference has given us a factuous, divisive, profiteering perversion that enslaves more than enlightens.
Whoa. Quite truly the most profound, succinct and, in my opinion, accurate assessment.
Fine print: have not and likely will not read the other posts - this one just caught my eye and will be rolling around in my noggin today. Struck a cord.
Nice.
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Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
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Aug 30, 2016 - 10:41am PT
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The " Why?" is not easily answered, but in my mind religious beliefs are very personal to all of us, and we each find a way to accommodate a belief system as the core of what guides us and our behavior. Quite frankly, I have an easier time subscribing to an actual belief system, complete with norms and guiding principles than actually answering the ultimate question you pose "Does God exist?" I don't know.
But I was raised Catholic and ascribe most of my moral beliefs to that upbringing. It gives me peace to go to mass, especially with my wife and kids. I take comfort in knowing I am trying to instill in them a sense of belonging, not just to the church, but to humanity in general. And I always tell my kids they will eventually make up their mind whether it is for them or not. But I have no doubt my life long dedication to contributing to my community, especially fighting for justice and equality, is grounded in my religious beliefs.
What I don't agree with, or appreciate, is proselytizing, in any form. I'm especially turned off by religious sects that hound you and try to convince you that you are not a GOOD person if you don't subscribe to their beliefs. I turn them away before they speak a word.
By the same token, I don't appreciate people that claim to be atheists and take issue with my beliefs. You should ask yourselves why the majority of the world's population DO hold some kind of belief (religious) system, and only a small minority do not. (BTW, most do not because they are not curious enough to ponder the question, which I find morally and intellectually repugnant).
So, in sum, do you not think that the way you phrased the question here is intolerably arrogant? You should have asked "Why do so many people NOT believe in God? Your phrasing of the question implies a denigration of those that believe, and a superiority that those that acknowledge a lack of proof of the existence of God are smarter than the rest of us.
(God my wife would be proud to read this.)
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Aug 30, 2016 - 11:18am PT
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From the article:
Children from religious families were less likely to share with others than were children from non-religious families. A religious upbringing also was associated with more punitive tendencies in response to anti-social behavior.
The results were at odds with the perceptions of religious parents, who were more likely than non-religious parents to report that their children had a high degree of empathy and sensitivity to the plight of others.
https://news.uchicago.edu/article/2015/11/05/religious-upbringing-associated-less-altruism-study-finds
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 30, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
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i believe that the benifits of spirituality far outweigh any egotistical hangups i have about it, if i can just remove my bias and prejudice,
science? has science proven that there is no great spirit? if anything, it's the opposite,
explain gravity and magnetism. we haven't yet. two basic forces of the unniverse.
if you could see or hear the great spirit, then he wouldn't be that great, would he?
you start with a little faith, don't take much, if that works out, then you have knowledge,
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 30, 2016 - 04:14pm PT
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You should ask yourselves why the majority of the world's population DO hold some kind of belief (religious) system, and only a small minority do not. (BTW, most do not because they are not curious enough to ponder the question, which I find morally and intellectually repugnant).
Gorgeous George, no doubt you are bound for heaven!
and damn those atheists!!
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 30, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
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Atheists are stoopid.
Without God they can't even be atheist ......
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Aug 30, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
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People are stoopid,
Without stoopidity, there wouldn't be as many stoopid people.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Aug 30, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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without dog they could not be dog-ist either, nawmean?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Aug 30, 2016 - 07:01pm PT
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You are stupid if you're not asking why after how is partially explained.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Aug 30, 2016 - 11:57pm PT
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as long as you know that you know, then you will never know.
but as soon as you begin to know that you don't know,
then you will know.
that sounds crazy?
i know.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 31, 2016 - 07:32am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^
The force is strong in this one.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Believe it or not, this is why I do, well said from today's Daily Devotional...
In Touch Ministries www.intouch.org DR. CHARLES STANLEY
SEPTEMBER 07, 2016
The Heart of Our Faith
Galatians 2:15-16
Paul believed nothing merited his boasting more than the cross (Gal. 6:14). He had good reason to think so: God’s entire plan of salvation hangs upon two beams of rough-hewn wood. It is through Jesus’ sacrificial death that we are reconciled to the Father. And we are justified by Christ’s blood—freed from the guilt and penalty of sin.
Galatians 2:16 says, “By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.” That is, clean living cannot earn God’s acceptance. Even so, many people choose to put confidence in some sort of cosmic “scale”—they believe their good deeds will outweigh their bad deeds, and as a result, the gate of heaven will be open to them.
However, if this scale philosophy were true, Jesus’ death would be senseless. A Father who accepted multiple paths to salvation but still sacrificed His Son couldn’t be called good or loving. Yet so many overlook the obvious logic of such reasoning and cling to their vision of a God who ignores personal sin.
The problem is pride. Since it is natural to desire acceptance, people want to believe something within them is worth loving. But the cross requires kneeling before God empty-handed. When we humbly admit we’re powerless to settle our own sin debt, we must accept the payment Jesus made for us.
We have nothing to offer God, but the fact is, He expects nothing. Instead, the Father created a salvation plan that cleansed the stain of our sin and reconciled us to Him. The cross is a symbol of His love—a love that deserves our boasting.
...Woo hoo hoo hoot!
I'm in it for the long haul, in this life with faith, hope, love, praise, and thinksgiving to God, then before His throne saved by grace and mercy through Jesus finished work on the cross and on into paradise for eternity!
Sorry that's all i got Cheers, goB
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Oh cheesus- here we go again...
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Way Anti-Christ. Way. If he existed and wasn't a total dick then he'd have cleaned up his big messy turd a long time ago. F*#k. That. Guy.
Um Werner, without fancy imaginings theists wouldn't be delusional, stoopid.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 10:46am PT
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^^^^
A day late for heaven's glory...
The Truth About Salvation
Acts 16:31
Do you ever wonder if faith in Jesus is really the only way to be saved? Satan is a crafty liar who will twist God’s Word to cause confusion. In order to steer people away from following Christ, he tries to create the impression that eventually everyone will make it to heaven. But that is not what Scripture teaches.
The truth is, we can choose to reject the salvation that Jesus Christ freely offers. John’s gospel tells us, “God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:17-18).
The Word of God clearly states that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved (John 3:16). The Bible also stresses that we make this choice during our earthly life—there will be no further opportunities once we die.
So if you would like to be sure of your salvation, you can do so by inviting Jesus to be your personal Savior. God, who wants you to spend eternity with Him, offers compelling reasons to make this all-important decision: “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life” (John 3:36).
There are no more chances to place faith in the Savior after death. The free gift of salvation is available only in this life—and only through Jesus (John 14:6). Receive Him now, and you will never have to wonder what awaits you in eternity.
https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/the-truth-about-salvation
...true that!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 11:56am PT
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Oh Locker! he he
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Sep 17, 2016 - 12:25pm PT
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^^^^^
Anthropomorphizing our wise pious pets again...
Someone please save me from all this.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 17, 2016 - 12:33pm PT
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I wonder if a muslim wandered in here praising the glory of Allen, if he'd be disrespected as much as a humble Christian praising his faith in God.
I know the answer already. The only thing higher to Atheism is respect for anything not-Christian. Buddhists are 'enlightened' with their mysticism, Hindus for their crazy-looking Deities and practices.
All you know is that you hate the Christian, and his God he worships.
I call you Christophobes.
EDIT: Conditioning during early childhood (Aka, "Brainwashing")...
Did you ever send you children to school when they were young? Why did you do that? To 'brainwash' them to learn something?
Learning the philosophy and understanding of Christ is a valuable tool that many people are lacking.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
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A little understanding is good...
How God Reveals Himself
Romans 1:18-21
Look at the delicate veins of an oak leaf, and you experience the beauty of God. Observe the storm-whipped surf beating against a beach, and you witness His power. The Lord’s sense of order is revealed in the march of the seasons and the precise tilt and turning of the earth. People need to look no farther than nature to understand that God is real.
Romans tells us that the revelation of the Lord in nature is sufficient to render inexcusable those who would deny His existence (Rom. 1:20). There’s no reasonable explanation for the creation of the material universe other than an omnipotent God putting it all together. The matter and fuel for a “big bang” had to come from Someone.
But nature can’t give us a full revelation—creation does not show the Lord’s holiness or eternity. That is why He gave us His Word. The Bible reveals God’s character, records His laws, and explains His expectations for the faithful. In its pages, we can learn about our Father and the kind of life He wants us to lead. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness” (2 Tim. 3:16).
Scripture teaches about the living Word—Jesus Christ—who is the full revelation of God. The heavenly Father wanted to ensure that humanity could know Him intimately, so to make Himself known, He sent His Son clothed in flesh. Jesus said, “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” (John 14:7). Spend time in Bible study and prayer to know your Father better.
https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/how-god-reveals-himself
Psalm 36
5 Your lovingkindness, O Lord, extends to the heavens,
Your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
6 Your righteousness is like the mountains of God;
Your judgments are like a great deep.
O Lord, You preserve man and beast.
7 How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!
And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.
8 They drink their fill of the abundance of Your house;
And You give them to drink of the river of Your delights.
9 For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
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Woody Allen Quote
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Sep 17, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
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GOOD people are in all walks of life and RELIGION has ZERO to do with being a good person...
A strange statement, and perhaps you meant it in the sense of "you don't have to be religious to be a good person" which is true. But religion has plenty to do with being a good person. Some people are made better (more kind, generous, peaceful) by their faith, and unfortunately, some people are made worse (narrow-minded, bigoted, violent). Many people get a little of the good and the bad. This seems quite obvious to me.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 17, 2016 - 02:24pm PT
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I wonder if a muslim wandered in here praising the glory of Allen, if he'd be disrespected as much as a humble Christian praising his faith in God.
I know the answer already. The only thing higher to Atheism is respect for anything not-Christian. Buddhists are 'enlightened' with their mysticism, Hindus for their crazy-looking Deities and practices.
All you know is that you hate the Christian, and his God he worships.
I call you Christophobes.
Proving conclusively that you know absolutely nothing about atheism.
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 17, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
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GOOD people are in all walks of life and RELIGION has ZERO to do with being a good person...
A strange statement, and perhaps you meant it in the sense of "you don't have to be religious to be a good person" which is true. But religion has plenty to do with being a good person. Some people are made better (more kind, generous, peaceful) by their faith, and unfortunately, some people are made worse (narrow-minded, bigoted, violent). Many people get a little of the good and the bad. This seems quite obvious to me.
Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg perhaps put it best:
"With or without religion you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, that requires religion"
Curt
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Sep 17, 2016 - 02:33pm PT
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No, it doesn't...
Good is good and has ZERO to do with ANY religion...
Are you saying that in the nature vs nurture debate, it's 100% nature all the way? The sum of all life's experiences, beliefs and memory, has no effect on ones actions or the choices they make?
Also there's an entire branch of philosophy dedicated to the study of morality who'd probably find your claim that "good is good" is a little, uh... underdeveloped.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 17, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
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What is "good" anyway? What's the difference between a "good" act and a "bad" one? What makes the "good" act "good?"
Just asking so I can understand this "good people" idea from someone else's perspective...
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Sep 17, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
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Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg perhaps put it best:
"With or without religion you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, that requires religion"
Curt
But the inverse of that statement is also true.
"With or without religion you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For evil people to do good things, that requires religion"
Although I disagree with the notion that there are "good people" and "evil people" in the world. Just people of varying circumstances, intelligence, mental illness, disposition, culture, and beliefs, who are sometimes brought into conflict and other times assist one another in beautiful ways.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
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How good are you?...
Ten Commandments
You shall have no other gods before Me.
You shall make no idols.
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
Keep the Sabbath day holy.
Honor your father and your mother.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet
In the NT Jesus said...
Mark 12:30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Luke 6:31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
John 8:2 Now early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people came to Him; and He sat down and taught them. 3 Then the scribes and Pharisees brought to Him a woman caught in adultery. And when they had set her in the midst, 4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman was caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?” 6 This they said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger, as though He did not hear.
7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them,“He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” 8 And again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 Then those who heard it, being convicted by their conscience, went out one by one, beginning with the oldest even to the last. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
The Truth...
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Psalm 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
...That's what it's about if you want it!
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Sep 17, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
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Locker,
Does being a vegan make one a GOOD person?
Does joining the army make one a BAD person?
Or is there perhaps a bit of nuance to all this?
But at least we're in agreement that being good or bad is determined by ones ACTIONS. So really the only question is this: does a person's beliefs affect their actions?
To make my point, say you're on a jury. And after listening to the prosecution, you come to believe that the defendant has murdered a baby? How could this belief not possibly prompt your next action, that of voting for her guilt? And if you were raised with certain religious teachings, which have lead you to believe that abortion is murder, wouldn't that also affect your actions in life?
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Sep 17, 2016 - 03:48pm PT
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Pretty sure you KNOW what I am getting at...
Someone DOES NOT have to KNOW a damned thing about God or Religion in order to do GOOD things...
Well, the very first sentence in my first response to you was:
A strange statement, and perhaps you meant it in the sense of "you don't have to be religious to be a good person" which is true.
So yes, I guess I know what you're getting at... even better than you ;-)
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 17, 2016 - 04:36pm PT
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Murder and rape = BAD...
Giving someone a ride to the hospital without charging them = GOOD...
Maybe, but from a genetic point of view it might be the opposite. From an atomic point of view it's chemicals and electricity so it doesn't matter. From an ecological point of view it might be good if a few more people were murdered.
I'm just always interested in people's personal beliefs in something that they often think is inherent and factual. Everyone has faith in their view of good an bad. What I mean is that nobody can know the difference between good and bad without faith, beliefs, perspective and opinion. AKA, religion.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Sep 17, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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What Locker meant was GUD! That should clear things up. Locker IS GOOD, GUD, or however you want it......he set me off on a new path in life and it had nothing to do with God, god or GUD!
Thanks Brother!
Peace
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 17, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
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I'm responding to this part of a post on last page:
The problem is pride. Since it is natural to desire acceptance, people want to believe something within them is worth loving. But the cross requires kneeling before God empty-handed. When we humbly admit we’re powerless to settle our own sin debt, we must accept the payment Jesus made for us. .
"People want to believe something within them is worth loving. But the cross requires kneeling before God empty-handed." Does this imply that, in order to earn God's love and acceptance, you must surrender the idea that you are worthy of love? In my personal emotional/spiritual journey in giving up old resentments and angers, and learning to live more harmoniously with my fellow humans while being less subject to emotional triggers, learning to love more openly- in this process I found that realizing I am worthy of love was a major foundational element. Surrendering this opens the floodgates to all manner of things that spread the opposite of love, and the shield of faith that God loves you anyways, that's just too inconsistent for feeble humans to hold onto as a means of keepthing a check on the emotions that trigger negative behaviors.
Am I incorrectly extrapolating meaning from the quote above? Or is it true that to deeply embrace Christianity you must surrender the idea that you are worthy of love to come to the cross empty-handed?
My suspicious nature thinks this methodology is much better suited to recruit soldiers to die for you in the crusades than to help create a harmonious and civil society.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Sep 17, 2016 - 06:20pm PT
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I was pondering this a bit in the shower, and found a way to reconcile the good impacts of Christianity with my belief system.
I think the key thing is how to achieve emotional independence, in the sense of how to be able to act in accordance with ones intentions without being derailed by emotional triggers. The need to be loved, to feel worthy of love, is a very deep need that can trigger amygdaloid fight/flight responses which overrule the conscious preconceptions we have. The Christian Way of dealing with this conundrum is to train one's self to accept not being worthy of loved, not needing love from anyone except God which is there as a fundamental article of faith and hence pretty robust.
The way I have learned is to provide love to myself, to develop my inner sense of being worthy of love, and through this exercise become more resilient to external triggers that would undermine that idea.
In both cases, the outcome is to be resilient to messages that, upon removing layer after layer, boil down to "you are not accepted, you are not loved, you are not worthy of love."
So I'm back to accepting that Christianity is a path to meeting these fundamental human needs. But, it still comes with the baggage of forming a community among like-minded individuals at the expense of including folks of different faiths. Though it does seem that modern branches of many religions emphasize the practical element of accepting those of other faiths, which bodes well for humanity.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 06:26pm PT
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God loved us so much that He send His “Beloved Son” Jesus!
1 John 4:19 We love Him because He first loved us.
In the parable of the prodigal son, the father is running out to meet him!
Mark 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
We can't save ourselves!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 17, 2016 - 09:39pm PT
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Does this imply that, in order to earn God's love and acceptance, you must surrender the idea that you are worthy of love?
Firstly, his "comin to Jesus with empty hands.." is confusing, to me too. Maybe his meaning is coherent with "surrendering"? That's my feeling anyway.
You used surrender in the above quote, but prolly inappropriately. What I see most people here are getting wrong is they think one has to do good to gain God's favor. Let me tell you this, EVERYTHING that's good is God's favor! Even the good that's done by the wicked tax collectors. Ha. Where secular's get it wrong is in thinking God punishes one for doing bad! He hasn't contorted that kind of power since He left Adam in the garden.. These days His only ability for discipline of sinners is to merely turn His back, and allow the lawless to be tempted by the hangman.. Another words, your in satan's hands. Jesus said, " I come here not to claim the ""righteous""(if you will), the ""good do'ers"", the ""secular saints""(if I might add), I Jesus come here as a doctor for the ill, the downtrodden, the "law breakers"". If you read back to go-B's quote from John. You can find the accumulation for the need for Jesus. The law is cut and dry! But if one is ready to concede AND forgive, then He is also. There is no earning!(another secular atrocity!) once one is "saved", all good deeds are realized as benefit to ,God. And are done IN HONOR! Not as a stepping stone. So in corralling this all, action gets you nowhere, it's merely a statement of where your at. Jesus' words are above that. He's dealing with your soul, your everythingness.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 17, 2016 - 10:05pm PT
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"comin to Jesus with empty hands.." or hat in hand, fessing up, without excuse, come clean, confessing!
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 17, 2016 - 10:58pm PT
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1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Yep. This is the new "law". Praise our hevenly Jesus for Grace!
His is the root, and we's are the branches.
Amen.
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Sep 18, 2016 - 12:43am PT
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"The Beings, or the Being, collectively called Elohim, who first (if ever) pronounced the cruel words, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live for ever . . . " must have been indeed the Ilda-baoth, the Demiurge of the Nazarenes, filled with rage and envy against his own creature, whose reflection created Ophiomorphos. In this case it is but natural -- even from the dead letter standpoint -- to view Satan, the Serpent of Genesis, as the real creator and benefactor, the Father of Spiritual mankind. For it is he who was the "Harbinger of Light," bright radiant Lucifer, who opened the eyes of the automaton created by Jehovah, as alleged; and he who was the first to whisper: "in the day ye eat thereof ye shall be as Elohim, knowing good and evil" -- can only be regarded in the light of a Saviour. An "adversary" to Jehovah the "personating spirit," he still remains in esoteric truth the ever-loving "Messenger" (the angel), the Seraphim and Cherubim who both knew well, and loved still more, and who conferred on us spiritual, instead of physical immortality..."
The Secret Doctrine p 243
Praise to The Lightbearer for waking humanity so that we might know good and evil. Amen.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Sep 18, 2016 - 04:14am PT
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What is "good" anyway? If someone doesn't know good from evil, then they lack empathy, not God.
You don't need religion to be a good person.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 19, 2016 - 03:04pm PT
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What is "good" anyway?
Mark 10:17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
...(We like Peter have our sights low though he thought he gave a good answer!)
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him,and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
...(In the parable of the good Samaritan Jesus shows us what true goodness is like! The audience Jesus was talking to held Samaritans with disdain but he was the one that helped the the victim, cleaned his wounds, brought him to the safety of the inn, paid and left an open tab so he could recuperate! Above and beyond us!)
Isaiah 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Revelation 5:1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
“To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
...(Jesus is good, i.e. God)
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 19, 2016 - 04:30pm PT
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That New Testament is quite a nice artifact. I bet it was even more inspiring before the Romans and then later the various Popes' twisted it with really bad marketing copy.
It's pretty fun and I respect your right to get into it.
However, you can postulate a supreme being and humble yourself in hopes of a better life, or you can get busy and assume responsibility for creating a better life for everyonne and everything in all directions like you own the place (with humility and respect for the fact that everyone else really owns the place). The best way to help the Lord is to help yourself and then others. Getting everyone to bow down doesn't heal the sick or brighten up the poor or turn the hopelessly sad to see that there is a future.
I wish I was bouldering again with Jeff like so long ago. He was a fun guy. I would have loved to have a long discussion with him on this subject at the bar. Perhaps he would still be here.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Sep 19, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
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Why believe in God?
Because he's the only being vengeful enough to have created Trump. We shall pay for our sins.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 19, 2016 - 04:35pm PT
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If someone doesn't know good from evil, then they lack empathy, not God.
You don't need religion to be a good person. I agree using my definition of good. What's yours?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 19, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
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Spurgeon, Charles Haddon
"If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
Galatians 5:25
The two most important things in our holy religion are the life of faith and the walk of faith. He who shall rightly understand these is not far from being a master in experimental theology, for they are vital points to a Christian. You will never find true faith unattended by true godliness; on the other hand, you will never discover a truly holy life which has not for its root a living faith upon the righteousness of Christ. Woe unto those who seek after the one without the other! There are some who cultivate faith and forget holiness; these may be very high in orthodoxy, but they shall be very deep in condemnation, for they hold the truth in unrighteousness; and there are others who have strained after holiness of life, but have denied the faith, like the Pharisees of old, of whom the Master said, they were "whitewashed sepulchres." We must have faith, for this is the foundation; we must have holiness of life, for this is the superstructure. Of what service is the mere foundation of a building to a man in the day of tempest? Can he hide himself therein? He wants a house to cover him, as well as a foundation for that house. Even so we need the superstructure of spiritual life if we would have comfort in the day of doubt. But seek not a holy life without faith, for that would be to erect a house which can afford no permanent shelter, because it has no foundation on a rock. Let faith and life be put together, and, like the two abutments of an arch, they will make our piety enduring. Like light and heat streaming from the same sun, they are alike full of blessing. Like the two pillars of the temple, they are for glory and for beauty. They are two streams from the fountain of grace; two lamps lit with holy fire; two olive trees watered by heavenly care. O Lord, give us this day life within, and it will reveal itself without to thy glory.
...Heavenly minded and earthly good!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 19, 2016 - 05:28pm PT
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IMHO, morality is a human belief process that helps us work together, because we're more effective working together than individually.
Theres an entire branch of philosophy dedicated to the study of morality who'd probably find your claim that "good is good" is a little, uh ... underdeveloped.
A young child at school was playing with sticks with his friend. I tried to get him to explain what they were doing. These sticks are the good guys and those sticks are the bad guys. The bad guys stole some bread from the good guys, so now the good guys are hunting them down to kill them and get their bread back. I looked at him and told him "sticks are sticks," but he told me that my understanding of sticks was a little underdeveloped :-)
We come out of the box with the ability to form beliefs (the way that humans form beliefs) already baked in. Nobody really needs to teach us how to form beliefs the way that humans form beliefs.
We come out of the box with an ability to easily learn languages too, thanks to our evolved Broca's area. Which language, and which belief, we form probably depends on our environment and specific genetics. But our facilities and tendencies are already baked in, whether the moral belief we end up forming is "whites are superior to blacks" or "you should spend your resources on my dogs surgery", or any of the rest of humans diversity of beliefs.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 19, 2016 - 07:17pm PT
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Unfortunately (but maybe not), you can't help but believe what you do (mostly because of your early childhood experiences with respect to religion). Seems to me that if you want to change, you would have to start hanging out with different people. You can't do it yourself.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 19, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
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Egoistic altruism per Selye.
Hierarchy of Needs per Maslow.
Secular ethics per Jesus and Gyatso.
Civil stoic philosophy per Aurelius.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 20, 2016 - 09:42am PT
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Life, liberty, & freedom give it to me...
CHARLES SPURGEON
"The liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free."
Galatians 5:1
This "liberty" makes us free to heaven's charter--the Bible. Here is a choice passage, believer, "When thou passest through the rivers, I will be with thee." You are free to that. Here is another: "The mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed, but my kindness shall not depart from thee"; you are free to that. You are a welcome guest at the table of the promises. Scripture is a never-failing treasury filled with boundless stores of grace. It is the bank of heaven; you may draw from it as much as you please, without let or hindrance. Come in faith and you are welcome to all covenant blessings. There is not a promise in the Word which shall be withheld. In the depths of tribulations let this freedom comfort you; amidst waves of distress let it cheer you; when sorrows surround thee let it be thy solace. This is thy Father's love-token; thou art free to it at all times. Thou art also free to the throne of grace. It is the believer's privilege to have access at all times to his heavenly Father. Whatever our desires, our difficulties, our wants, we are at liberty to spread all before him. It matters not how much we may have sinned, we may ask and expect pardon. It signifies nothing how poor we are, we may plead his promise that he will provide all things needful. We have permission to approach his throne at all times--in midnight's darkest hour, or in noontide's most burning heat. Exercise thy right, O believer, and live up to thy privilege. Thou art free to all that is treasured up in Christ--wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. It matters not what thy need is, for there is fulness of supply in Christ, and it is there for thee. O what a "freedom" is thine! freedom from condemnation, freedom to the promises, freedom to the throne of grace, and at last freedom to enter heaven!
...hallelujah!
It takes one to know one, Elvis the King, and Jesus the King of Kings...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf0vJiyeLIo&list=RDNf0vJiyeLIo&index=1
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Sep 20, 2016 - 09:54am PT
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It's easy to believe in gods, angels and fairies
They are the answer to all life's difficult questions
It's hard to be honest enough to admit you may be wrong
and even more difficult to admit your answers before were complete BS, and you have to look for answers the hard way.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Sep 20, 2016 - 03:53pm PT
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It's hard to be honest enough to admit you may be wrong
and even more difficult to admit your answers before were complete BS, and you have to look for answers the hard way.
Well said. You must be a "believer",one that struggled with Faith the same was I.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2016 - 04:00pm PT
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As a religion Jesus's tenets make great foundation for a secular ethic.
And, as a religion.....myths have their value.
Seems like the forgiveness of sin thing just let's you off the hook for being responsible for your actions.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 20, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
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Good one Locker, and that's when Elvis got his hair do, helmet hair!
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Sep 21, 2016 - 09:54am PT
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Hey Matt/Gobe
Good to have you back
now I can say this once again, no more scripture,
say it in your own words
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 21, 2016 - 10:04am PT
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Craig you cut and paste your stoopid cartoons everyday..
Thanks goB we all need scripture everyday!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 21, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
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Hey Craig, Thanks!
I'll leave you with this one anyway...
"I will rejoice over them to do them good."
Jeremiah 32:41
How heart-cheering to the believer is the delight which God has in his saints! We cannot see any reason in ourselves why the Lord should take pleasure in us; we cannot take delight in ourselves, for we often have to groan, being burdened; conscious of our sinfulness, and deploring our unfaithfulness; and we fear that God's people cannot take much delight in us, for they must perceive so much of our imperfections and our follies, that they may rather lament our infirmities than admire our graces. But we love to dwell upon this transcendent truth, this glorious mystery: that as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so does the Lord rejoice over us. We do not read anywhere that God delighteth in the cloud-capped mountains, or the sparkling stars, but we do read that he delighteth in the habitable parts of the earth, and that his delights are with the sons of men. We do not find it written that even angels give his soul delight; nor doth he say, concerning cherubim and seraphim, "Thou shalt be called Hephzibah, for the Lord delighteth in thee"; but he does say all that to poor fallen creatures like ourselves, debased and depraved by sin, but saved, exalted, and glorified by his grace. In what strong language he expresses his delight in his people! Who could have conceived of the eternal One as bursting forth into a song? Yet it is written, "He will rejoice over thee with joy, he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing." As he looked upon the world he had made, he said, "It is very good"; but when he beheld those who are the purchase of Jesus' blood, his own chosen ones, it seemed as if the great heart of the Infinite could restrain itself no longer, but overflowed in divine exclamations of joy. Should not we utter our grateful response to such a marvellous declaration of his love, and sing, "I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation?"
CHARLES SPURGEON
...Woot!
But God
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D. | Sep. 21, 2016
“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.” (Galatians 4:4-5)
God makes all the difference! There was a time when the whole world was in bondage to sin and death. But God!
“But . . . God sent forth his Son . . . To redeem them that were under the law.” Because He did, “the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God” (Romans 8:21). But there was a problem, for every man was still a lost sinner, deserving to die under the righteous, well-deserved wrath of a Holy God. But God!
“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). He died for us, suffering in our place, because He loved us. The issue is not yet settled, however, for how could a dead redeemer complete the work He was sent to do? But God!
“But God raised him from the dead” (Acts 13:30). The price for sin was for ever settled, so that God, in full righteousness and in mighty power, could raise His beloved Son, alive forevermore. Yes, but we ourselves are still sinful—still dying. Our very nature keeps us in bondage to sin, even though the price for our deliverance has been fully paid. But God!
“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ. . . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . . it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:4-5, 8). We cannot fully understand. But God does not require us to understand—only to believe, and receive. HMM http://www.icr.org/articles/type/6
...That'll work!
Cheers!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 21, 2016 - 01:53pm PT
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IMHO, morality is a human belief process that helps us work together, because we're more effective working together than individually. I agree with that too. Which also means that in a purely physical, logic based world there is no such thing as right and wrong. Just rules we made up to help humans survive, which is neither right nor wrong if we are simply another animal in the universe.
I'm trying to explain why I think (know) that without some sort of faith in a higher power or creator you can't KNOW the difference between right and wrong because there is none. It's an interesting thought and I enjoy discussing it so sorry if I'm beating a dead horse. Or beating a live human, because what's the difference?
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Sep 21, 2016 - 03:51pm PT
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Love the holier than thou, self-righteousness of the non-believers.
Love the irony.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 21, 2016 - 04:26pm PT
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When someone denigrates someone else because they don't "believe" the same things they do, their credibility is suspect.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 21, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
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Not sure if you're referring to me? That's not the intent of my posts. I often hear the argument that goes something like, "you don't need God/religion/book/faith to know right from wrong. I know what's good and bad and if you need someone else to tell you then you have issues."
My question is always, what do you use to define right and wrong? I'm not trying to say one view is more valuable than another, I just don't understand the other side of the debate.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 21, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
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Stalbro, I hope you're among those who appreciate the importance of distinguishing between (a) the denigration of someone else because they don't "believe" and (b) criticism of ideas innate to belief (chances are, old, out-dated, iron aged belief) in the pursuit of better practices.
(2) "their credibility is suspect" Why their credibility? Seems to me their character would be suspect way moreso.
My two cents tonight.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2016 - 06:02pm PT
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Only stupid atheist believe in God.
They believe that God doesn't exist and believe that saying so will make it true.
Theists don't believe in God, they absolutely know he exists since they see him in everything and localized.
Atheists are stooopid and waste all their stooopid time denying ........
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 21, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
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I probably use the same sources as you do, by and large.
My question to you - why does the prospect of no higher authority undermine your morals? Not mine, not others; yours. What is it about your morals that would go... absent, if not for the presence of god?
DMT
I don't know if they would change, what I mean is that there would be no logical reason for them. As it is now, I believe there is a creator who defined right and wrong. If there is no creator then, logically, it's all atoms and electricity so I can't come up with any reason for atoms and electricity to do/not do certain things.
Don't kill anyone. Why? So people can survive. Why is that good? Because it will make people sad. Why is that bad?
I'm not saying I would go around raping and pillaging if it wasn't for my belief in Jesus, but I am saying that logically it wouldn't matter.
Maybe I'm not doing a good job explaining or answering questions. It seems like a simple concept that I might be unintentionally complicating. I just want to know if anyone can explain the difference between right and wrong in the absence of a "guidebook" so to speak. Not which actions are right or wrong, but what makes actions right or wrong?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 21, 2016 - 07:11pm PT
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Mark 7:20-23 “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 21, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
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My comment was not aimed at anyone in particular. I think it is important for people to distinguish between their beliefs, other people's experiences, and the world at large.
No one has a monopoly on the meaning of human existence. No one.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Sep 21, 2016 - 10:54pm PT
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My higher mind tells me what the answer is to everything
It is my superior intellect
Too bad I don't know what that means...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2016 - 10:59pm PT
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As it is now, I believe there is a creator who defined right and wrong.
Then they did an incredibly suck job of it. I mean, seriously suck job of it. And what about newborns and infants who die without ever experiencing either? Having worked in the peds wing of a nursing home taking care of newborns and infants who only had a short time to live my lasting take is that if there is a god, s/he totally and relentlessly sucks balls.
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John M
climber
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Sep 21, 2016 - 11:25pm PT
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Reincarnation explains all of that. There are very few people on this planet currently who haven't had more then one lifetime. And most have had many lifetimes. There are layers to everything.
God never ever wanted any child to die. We were created to live long lives. But we were also given free will and through our choices we create the karma that rules our lives. Including a child who is born with illness or dies young. Those children are not young souls and that was not their first human lifetime.
And yes, I understand that the christian church does not teach reincarnation.
If people could only understand the layers and levels of life that this planet has undergone. We were originally created with a less dense body that could easily go 1000 years. Our current body maxes out at about 120 years. That was not God's choice for us, but the result of our choices. One can't have free will without consequences. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction applies to more then just force or motion. It has a spiritual meaning. You reap what you sow. The difference in the spiritual understanding is that the reaction does not have to happen immediately.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Sep 22, 2016 - 06:00am PT
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The impermanent and transitory nature of life is all so meaningless.
Here it is, almost to end of the barbecue season again.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Sep 22, 2016 - 07:08am PT
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Religion is evil.
Indoctrination stunts the developing mind.
Fancy imaginings by broken brains.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Sep 22, 2016 - 07:15am PT
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Reincarnation explains nothing, other than it's a way out of a logical explanation of what's true.
First of all????
What about other animals??
Do they reincarnate??
If no, then why not?
are you sure?
What about bacteria?
What happens when you become enlightened?
no more reincarnation?
If you were a biologist, you would see the obvious link between man and all of the rest of the living kingdom
You step on a ant, it is Dead and not coming back
You kill a rat, it is dead
you kill a whale, it is dead
You kill a chimp, you kill a human
It's all the same
dead is dead
there is no spirit or soul w/o a living flesh and blood body to support it.
There is nothing that can come back and start a new life in a new body.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Sep 22, 2016 - 08:19am PT
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If this is the limit of your philosophy then you've stopped thinking. Don't lean on your own misunderstanding.
I'm not saying I would go around raping and pillaging if it wasn't for my belief in Jesus, but I am saying that logically it wouldn't matter.
Simply put, if you try to kill me or my people then you might get killed or hurt. Even if you succeed, my people will kill you and your people. Simple self preservation. People are a cooperative herd by nature. The Golden Rule predates Jesus. The Bible is incredibly divisive. Intellectually, you theists are responsible for most wars and atrocities.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 22, 2016 - 09:59am PT
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The Bible is incredibly divisive. Intellectually, you theists are responsible for most wars and atrocities.
It does not follow that because theists are responsible for "most" wars that theology was the motivation. Wars are started over a variety of complex issues usually dealing with control, power and territory. Religious wars are usually the result of secular class distinctions as in Protestant vs. Catholic problems in Ireland or the need for Cromwell (control/ territory) to take Ireland in the first place.
there is no spirit or soul w/o a living flesh and blood body to support it.
There is nothing that can come back and start a new life in a new body.
This is a gross simplification of the mind body problem. That affecting the brain results in effects in the mind does not automatically equate mind and brain as in affecting the bulb effects the light it produces but the light is not the bulb.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2016 - 10:04am PT
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But we were also given free will and through our choices we create the karma that rules our lives. Including a child who is born with illness or dies young. Those children are not young souls and that was not their first human lifetime.
There's nothing in there that's any more palatable and I personally find the concepts of a child being born with karma or original sin both entirely interchangeable and equally reprehensible.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 22, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
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Thank you for giving your thoughts on this question:
I just want to know if anyone can explain the difference between right and wrong in the absence of a "guidebook" so to speak. Not which actions are right or wrong, but what makes actions right or wrong? Most people seem to avoid it but I like hearing other perspectives, so thanks.
I agree that the most logical reason for human morals, in a purely physical world, would be that humans cooperate better with them and it promotes our survival. And also self preservation when there are consequences. Basically, DNA with an organic shell keeping whichever mutations make it more likely to spread in the population, whether it be empathy or a dopamine release when improving the survival probability of the group.
Unfortunately I don't think that answers the question. If our atoms are just along for the ride and some other "human" quality makes the decision then that seems to imply that there is something other than the purely physical and electrical human body.
I don't see how people can reconcile some sort of concept of good and evil or right and wrong having value in the absence of the spiritual part of life.
Not to go into wall of text mode, but how does the value of earth change if it goes from every species surviving and reproducing to a big dead mass that's been nuked into oblivion by weapons or a comet or volcano or whatever? If physical existence of matter is the extent of it, then the form and shape of matter doesn't have any importance, does it? Aside from the individual wanting certain parts of their brain to be stimulated to they have pleasant feelings. Even though feelings are chemical and electrical reactions with no distinction from lightning hitting a tree if the human doesn't have a spiritual component.
I don't know if this is making sense. Funny how people on opposing sides of a thought have trouble conveying their ideas and understanding those of others. Or, sometimes, trying not to. I'm trying, honest. I thought about this a lot during times when I doubted the existence of God.
I guess I'll pose the question again, I just want to know if anyone can explain the difference between right and wrong in the absence of a guidebook so to speak. Not which actions are right or wrong, but what makes actions right or wrong?
And rephrase:
Why would the physical location, form or actions of purely physical matter, matter? All that happens when humans die is that we not longer send electrical signals. So what?
Edit: I don't mean any of this in a way to imply value or say one way is better than another. I'm trying to understand out of curiosity. I'm actually more impressed than anything by people who cope with life with this underlying question unanswered. Or maybe unasked...
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 22, 2016 - 01:20pm PT
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Only stupid atheist believe in God.
That would be a stupid atheist.
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 22, 2016 - 02:56pm PT
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You can't expect much from an angry government employee.
Or a smoking duck.
Curt
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 22, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 23, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
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Ha! I like the term electric meat. Future route name!
Anyway, that example still appeals to emotion. I'm wondering if anyone has a logical reason for right and wrong. In a world of simple "electric meat" emotions aren't anything logically important. Other than for the survival of a species. Just electricity in a different part of a mass of neurons. Right?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 27, 2016 - 09:59am PT
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There's no buyer's remorse with Jesus, He never fails!
-goB
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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"He himself hath suffered being tempted."
Hebrews 2:18
It is a common-place thought, and yet it tastes like nectar to the weary heart--Jesus was tempted as I am. You have heard that truth many times: have you grasped it? He was tempted to the very same sins into which we fall. Do not dissociate Jesus from our common manhood. It is a dark room which you are going through, but Jesus went through it before. It is a sharp fight which you are waging, but Jesus has stood foot to foot with the same enemy. Let us be of good cheer, Christ has borne the load before us, and the blood-stained footsteps of the King of glory may be seen along the road which we traverse at this hour. There is something sweeter yet--Jesus was tempted, but Jesus never sinned. Then, my soul, it is not needful for thee to sin, for Jesus was a man, and if one man endured these temptations and sinned not, then in his power his members may also cease from sin. Some beginners in the divine life think that they cannot be tempted without sinning, but they mistake; there is no sin in being tempted, but there is sin in yielding to temptation. Herein is comfort for the sorely tempted ones. There is still more to encourage them if they reflect that the Lord Jesus, though tempted, gloriously triumphed, and as he overcame, so surely shall his followers also, for Jesus is the representative man for his people; the Head has triumphed, and the members share in the victory. Fears are needless, for Christ is with us, armed for our defence. Our place of safety is the bosom of the Saviour. Perhaps we are tempted just now, in order to drive us nearer to him. Blessed be any wind that blows us into the port of our Saviour's love! Happy wounds, which make us seek the beloved Physician. Ye tempted ones, come to your tempted Saviour, for he can be touched with a feeling of your infirmities, and will succour every tried and tempted one.
"If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
1 John 2:1
"If any man sin, we have an advocate." Yes, though we sin, we have him still. John does not say, "If any man sin he has forfeited his advocate," but "we have an advocate," sinners though we are. All the sin that a believer ever did, or can be allowed to commit, cannot destroy his interest in the Lord Jesus Christ, as his advocate. The name here given to our Lord is suggestive. "Jesus." Ah! then he is an advocate such as we need, for Jesus is the name of one whose business and delight it is to save. "They shall call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins." His sweetest name implies his success. Next, it is "Jesus Christ"--Christos, the anointed. This shows his authority to plead. The Christ has a right to plead, for he is the Father's own appointed advocate and elected priest. If he were of our choosing he might fail, but if God hath laid help upon one that is mighty, we may safely lay our trouble where God has laid his help. He is Christ, and therefore authorized; he is Christ, and therefore qualified, for the anointing has fully fitted him for his work. He can plead so as to move the heart of God and prevail. What words of tenderness, what sentences of persuasion will the anointed use when he stands up to plead for me! One more letter of his name remains, "Jesus Christ the righteous." This is not only his character but his plea. It is his character, and if the Righteous One be my advocate, then my cause is good, or he would not have espoused it. It is his plea, for he meets the charge of unrighteousness against me by the plea that he is righteous. He declares himself my substitute and puts his obedience to my account. My soul, thou hast a friend well fitted to be thine advocate, he cannot but succeed; leave thyself entirely in his hands.
-CHARLES SPURGEON
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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One can follow the ethics that Jesus expouses according to the New Testament and leave it at that and that alone is incredibly satisfying. Is more needed? At least for me, no.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Michael Shermer, after speaking... That's bullsh#t.
I don't cheat on my wife because there is a god.
I don't cheat on my wife because I promised her I wouldn't
I don't cheat on my wife because I love her. Period.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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One can follow the ethics that Jesus expouses according to the New Testament and leave it at that...
Yes. And the World would be a better place. It is the teachings that are important--all the BS embellishments and claims that he was the son of God add absolutely nothing.
Curt
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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In discussing religion I am sometimes reminded of . . .
[youtube=Q1zbgd6xpGQ&list=PLOHbM4GGWADc5bZgvbivvttAuWGow6h05&index=15]
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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"Now on whom dost thou trust?"
Isaiah 36:5
Reader, this is an important question. Listen to the Christian's answer, and see if it is yours. "On whom dost thou trust?" "I trust," says the Christian, "in a triune God. I trust the Father, believing that he has chosen me from before the foundations of the world; I trust him to provide for me in providence, to teach me, to guide me, to correct me if need be, and to bring me home to his own house where the many mansions are. I trust the Son. Very God of very God is he--the man Christ Jesus. I trust in him to take away all my sins by his own sacrifice, and to adorn me with his perfect righteousness. I trust him to be my Intercessor, to present my prayers and desires before his Father's throne, and I trust him to be my Advocate at the last great day, to plead my cause, and to justify me. I trust him for what he is, for what he has done, and for what he has promised yet to do. And I trust the Holy Spirit--he has begun to save me from my inbred sins; I trust him to drive them all out; I trust him to curb my temper, to subdue my will, to enlighten my understanding, to check my passions, to comfort my despondency, to help my weakness, to illuminate my darkness; I trust him to dwell in me as my life, to reign in me as my King, to sanctify me wholly, spirit, soul, and body, and then to take me up to dwell with the saints in light forever."
Oh, blessed trust! To trust him whose power will never be exhausted, whose love will never wane, whose kindness will never change, whose faithfulness will never fail, whose wisdom will never be nonplussed, and whose perfect goodness can never know a diminution! Happy art thou, reader, if this trust is thine! So trusting, thou shalt enjoy sweet peace now, and glory hereafter, and the foundation of thy trust shall never be removed.
CHARLES SPURGEON
...Yes thank-you please!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 11, 2016 - 10:23am PT
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The Meaning of the Cross
Matthew 27:11-26
The cross—the symbol of Christianity—has great meaning to God. First of all, through Jesus’ death, the Father proclaimed the value of every single human being: He offers forgiveness and eternal life to anyone who places faith in Jesus (Rom. 6:23). Second, it meant a great cost. Holy God separated Himself from His beloved Son while Jesus bore the weight of mankind’s sin. (See Matt. 27:46.) Third, the redemption of man was accomplished. Jesus’ shed blood purchased us from slavery to sin and reconciled us to God (1 Peter 1:18-19).
What’s more, divine justice was carried out on the cross. Scripture tells us that death is the debt owed for sin (Ezek. 18:20). However, God requires an unblemished sacrifice (Deut. 17:1). We could not adequately pay our own penalty because we would only die in our sin. For holy God to forgive us, a sufficient substitute had to be found—one who qualified to pay for our disobedience. Jesus, the only one who was without sin, willingly took our place and assumed responsibility for our debt. All our iniquity—past, present, and future—was placed on Christ, and God’s judgment upon us was carried out against Him.
The meaning of the cross was experienced firsthand by Barabbas, the notorious prisoner who was condemned to die. God’s innocent Son was substituted for him, giving the criminal freedom. Like Barabbas, we’ve had our death sentence commuted, and, though unworthy, we have been set free in Jesus. Today, the cross continues to offer life and freedom to the undeserving.
https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/the-meaning-of-the-cross
Jesus Paid It All | Elvina M. Hall
I hear the Savior say,
“Thy strength indeed is small;
Child of weakness, watch and pray,
Find in Me thine all in all.”
Refrain:
Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
For nothing good have I
Whereby Thy grace to claim;
I’ll wash my garments white
In the blood of Calv’ry’s Lamb.
And now complete in Him,
My robe, His righteousness,
Close sheltered ’neath His side,
I am divinely blest.
Lord, now indeed I find
Thy pow’r, and Thine alone,
Can change the leper’s spots
And melt the heart of stone.
When from my dying bed
My ransomed soul shall rise,
“Jesus died my soul to save,”
Shall rend the vaulted skies.
And when before the throne
I stand in Him complete,
I’ll lay my trophies down,
All down at Jesus’ feet.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 12, 2016 - 10:34am PT
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The Indwelling Trinity
“That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.” (Ephesians 3:16-19)
This prayer of the apostle Paul applies to us as well as “to the saints which are at Ephesus” (Ephesians 1:1). Paul directs his prayer “unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (3:14), and he requests both that “Christ may dwell in your hearts” and also that the Holy Spirit would strengthen our “inner man.” We know elsewhere that Christ is at the right hand of the Father in heaven (Ephesians 1:20), so that the Holy Spirit is the person who actually indwells our bodies as believers. And yet, because God is a triune God, if the Holy Spirit indwells us, so also must “the Spirit of Christ,” or else “he is none of his” (Romans 8:9).
But the prayer doesn’t end with Christ dwelling in our hearts. He further prays that “ye might be filled with all the fulness of God,” and thus the Father is there too! When we accept Christ, we accept also the Father and the Holy Spirit, for the three are one, and God in all His tri-une fullness thenceforth lives in our bodies.
The Lord Jesus Himself had prayed essentially the same prayer. “I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; . . . and my Father will love [you], and we will . . . make our abode with [you]” (John 14:16-17, 23). What a priceless privilege and responsibility is ours as believers, that our triune God of creation and redemption and direction is with us always! HMM http://www.icr.org/article/9552/
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Oct 12, 2016 - 06:01pm PT
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Next time that you have a wild and very vivid dream and wake up wondering where it came from, maybe you will realize that logic is only one tool. The dream came from somewhere. A collective consciousness? Faith is another tool towards understanding. Try meditating if you wish to journey mentally. It is yet another tool.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 17, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
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If I were the Prince of Darkness
If I were the Prince of Darkness I would want to engulf the whole earth in darkness.
I’d have a third of its real estate and four-fifths of its population, but I would not be happy until I had seized the ripest apple on the tree.
So I should set about however necessary, to take over the United States.
I would begin with a campaign of whispers.
With the wisdom of a serpent, I would whispers to you as I whispered to Eve, “Do as you please.”
To the young I would whisper “The Bible is a myth.” I would convince them that “man created God,” instead of the other way around. I would confide that “what is bad is good and what is good is square.”
In the ears of the young married I would whisper that work is debasing, that cocktail parties are good for you. I would caution them not to be “extreme” in religion, in patriotism, in moral conduct.
And the old I would teach to pray — to say after me — “Our father which are in Washington.”
Then I’d get organized.
I’d educate authors in how to make lurid literature exciting so that anything else would appear dull, uninteresting.
I’d threaten TV with dirtier movies, and vice-versa.
I’d infiltrate unions and urge more loafing, less work. Idle hands usually work for me.
I’d peddle narcotics to whom I could, I’d sell alcohol to ladies and gentlemen of distinction, I’d tranquilize the rest with pills.
If I were the Devil, I would encourage schools to refine young intellects, but neglect to discipline emotions; let those run wild.
I’d designate an atheist to front for me before the highest courts and I’d get preachers to say, “She’s right.”
With flattery and promises of power I would get the courts to vote against God and in favor of pornography.
Thus I would evict God from the courthouse, then from the schoolhouse, then from the Houses of Congress.
Then in his own churches I’d substitute psychology for religion and deify science.
If I were Satan I’d make the symbol of Easter an egg
And the symbol of Christmas a bottle.
If I were the Devil I’d take from those who have and give to those who wanted until I had killed the incentive of the ambitious. Then my police state would force everybody back to work.
Then I would separate families, putting children in uniform, women in coal mines and objectors in slave-labor camps.
If I were Satan I’d just keep doing what I’m doing and the whole world go to hell as sure as the Devil.
-Paul Harvey 1965
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Oct 17, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
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And how would you vote in November?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Oct 17, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
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Because the devil is real.
Lol
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Oct 17, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
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Platypus Dreams
Thomas the Egret
Sat high on his perch
Way up on a river bank
In a cluster of birch
He'd swoop down for a fish
Or rabbits in a lurch
The raccoon's reputation
He would often besmirch
Henry the fish
Was a grim kinda sort
Whenever he'd sneeze
Great big bubbles he'd snort
He'd spasm and tremble
And start to contort
'Till the top of his head
Grew a humongous wart
Don't ask me the point
Of this ludicrous tale
Because animals will do
What they do without fail
They don't believe in heaven
And they don't believe in hell
They just do what they want
It's unbelievably swell
Mark, the platypus
Was stuck in a rut
The fact he couldn't evolve
Was like a kick to the gut
As if a platypus cared
What the scientists said
He just turned out the light
And he went straight to bed
-bushman
10/17/2016
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 17, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
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Before the throne of God above
Before the throne of God above
I have a strong, a perfect plea;
A great High Priest, whose Name is Love,
Who ever lives and pleads for me.
My name is graven on His hands,
My name is written on His heart;
I know that while with God He stands
No tongue can bid me thence depart.
When Satan tempts me to despair,
And tells me of the guilt within,
Upward I look, and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin.
Because the sinless Savior died,
My sinful soul is counted free;
For God, the Just, is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me.
Behold Him there, the risen Lamb!
My perfect, spotless Righteousness,
The great unchangeable I AM,
The King of glory and of grace.
One with Himself, I cannot die;
My soul is purchased by His blood;
My life is hid with Christ on high,
With Christ, my Savior and my God.
-C. L. Bancroft
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Oct 18, 2016 - 04:22am PT
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Another sad verse in bushman's impossible mission to persuade the opiated religious masses to cast aside their religious addiction for some fleeting chance at an original thought in leu of believing they are wrought with original sin;
I see a whole nation of writers and artists in defiance of tyranny. What would they do without freedom? They must exercise their creative minds.
Some of them, they cannot lie awake in bed at night and babble endless rote scriptures acquiescing all their original thoughts to some nonexistent godhead puppet-master of the imagination.
Fight! Fight against the will to lie down and accept sweet death. Though you may see in it only pulchritude, I see only rot and the eternal abyss. Must you run and hide behind religion when you can chose to truly live?
Fight, and you still may die. But dying in your beds and not exercising the full force of your imagination would be a waste. Would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to your last day for that one chance at eternal life?
But I would look you in the eye and say I'd rather trade all of my tomorrows and any chance at eternal life under some tyrannical father figure for the freedom to fully exercise my creative mind. If your God exists he might take away my immortal soul, but for this one brief moment...
he will never take away my freedom!!!
-bushman
(Bastardized from the Braveheart Movie's William Wallace battle speech).
10/18/2016
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Oct 18, 2016 - 09:10am PT
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^^^^^
I agree in part about the physical self being broken down and recycled after death.
As far as the spiritual, I don't believe we have a soul any more than a mollusk would have a soul. So I entirely disagree with you about all the rest.
As far as freedom goes, right or no right, I choose to exercise it, and do so fully at this time until the bombs rain down on me or I otherwise meet my demise.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 18, 2016 - 10:21am PT
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God the Owner
“The earth is the LORD’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.” (Psalm 24:1)
In communist countries, “the people” own the lands, while in capitalist countries, individuals may own “private property.” Both are myths unless these are viewed as a stewardship from God. We don’t really own anything, “for we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out” (1 Timothy 6:7).
In the mineral kingdom, the most important substances are the precious metals upon which monetary standards are based, yet God makes it clear that all “the silver is mine, and the gold is mine” (Haggai 2:8). The greatest members of the plant kingdom are the mighty trees of the forest, and God reminds us that “the trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted” (Psalm 104:16). All the birds and beasts in the animal kingdom are His also. “For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills” (Psalm 50:10).
Again and again God reminds us that “all the earth is mine” (Exodus 19:5) and even the infinite heavens belong to Him. “Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD’s thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is” (Deuteronomy 10:14).
God has, indeed, given man “dominion . . . over all the earth” (Genesis 1:26), and Satan has, indeed, laid false claim to “all the kingdoms of the world” (Luke 4:5-6), but the fact remains that “the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will” (Daniel 4:32).
Most of all, every Christian should understand that he and all he has belong to God, by both creation and blood-bought redemption. “Ye are not your own. . . . For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s” (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). HMM www.icr.org/article/9558/
...Just passing through!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 20, 2016 - 10:29am PT
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Because animals will do
What they do without fail
To the Animals
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
Evidence for Creation
“Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise: Which having no guide, overseer, or ruler, Provideth her meat in the summer, and gathereth her food in the harvest.” (Proverbs 6:6-8)
Adam and Eve originally were given dominion over all the animal creation (Genesis 1:26), but sin came in and things changed. Then, after the Flood, God placed the fear and dread of man “upon all that moveth upon the earth” (Genesis 9:2), and the primeval fellowship between man and his animal friends was broken.
More seriously, their fellowship with God was broken, and soon, in their autonomy, the source of true wisdom was largely forgotten. “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things” (Romans 1:22-23).
Ironically, God now directs such foolish people to the animals they worship to find the wisdom they should have learned from God. “Go to the ant,” says the Lord, to learn industry and prudence. “There be four things which are little upon the earth,” the Word says, “but they are exceeding wise: The ants . . . ; The conies . . . ; The locusts . . . ; The spider” (Proverbs 30:24-28). “The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider” (Isaiah 1:3).
“But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee” (Job 12:7-8).
If nothing else, the intricate design of even the lowest animal is eloquent testimony to the wisdom of its Creator and the madness of those who deny Him. HMM http://www.icr.org/article/9560/
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Oct 20, 2016 - 11:36am PT
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Same as it ever was
God creating us,
God owning us,
God owning women and children,
God owning slaves,
God punishing us for all of eternity,
or rewarding us with mindless debauchery…Hmmmm,
Sounds like the same old, same old.
Glad I live in the good old USA… At least for now.
Too bad the Trumpsters never acknowledged that they lost the Civil War 150 years ago.
Now I guess they're unwilling to accept it if they lose this election.
Same old BS as it ever was… Might as well nuke all the threads unrelated to climbing.
I won't lose any sleep over it, in fact, I can start planning to get a life again... Preferably not a born-again one.
I've already been born once, and if my second birth is anything like my first one, I'll pass.
-bushman
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the barber
Social climber
burlington, va
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Oct 20, 2016 - 11:58am PT
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the people whom
believe in god
cannot think
beyond nothing.
fear corrals a soul;
the soul seething for escape.
but fear develops a bind
that exceeds the simple union
of mind and heart.
now i hate god
and marginally
subscribe to fear,
though i see a great
and beautiful
void that only
begins at nothing.
i want within that void.
i seek it and invite it within me.
though death is not a liberal patron of life.
mine and your passage is like a first kiss
and must be earned.
don't believe in god.
because then you will
surpass her bounds
and she will latch
onto your coat-tails
and accompany us
beyond the logic of
common understanding
and only then
will we arrive
at the commencement
of our journey.
thus god is riding
bitch like a hitch.
hiker. and she
reeks of foul practice,
though she and she only
holds the map right-side up;
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 20, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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Brush your teeth!!!...
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 22, 2016 - 10:12am PT
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The Pleasure of the Lord
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
“Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.” (Isaiah 53:10)
The very concept of God having pleasure in things that take place on Earth staggers the imagination. Most amazing of all is the revelation that it pleased Him to put His own Son through a terrible, bruising death, as the tremendous Messianic prophecy of our text reveals.
Nevertheless, this was the only possible way whereby “the pleasure of the LORD” could be accomplished in the redeemed lives of lost men and women, whom He had created for eternal fellowship with the triune God. “For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation” (Psalm 149:4).
Five times we read in the New Testament that God the Father spoke from heaven assuring us that He was “well pleased” with His “beloved Son” (Matthew 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22; 2 Peter 1:17). “Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him!” This is almost impossible to understand, but had it not been so, none of us ever could have been saved. The Lord Jesus Himself has confirmed to His own “little flock” that “it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” (Luke 12:32).
Thus, not only have we been created “for thy pleasure” (Revelation 4:11), but also we have been “predestinated . . . unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will” (Ephesians 1:5). This is far beyond our comprehension, so we merely rest in the great truth that “it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13). We know that “the LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him” (Psalm 147:11), and we rejoice with thanksgiving! HMM http://www.icr.org/article/9562/
"I will love them freely."
Hosea 14:4
This sentence is a body of divinity in miniature. He who understands its meaning is a theologian, and he who can dive into its fulness is a true master in Israel. It is a condensation of the glorious message of salvation which was delivered to us in Christ Jesus our Redeemer. The sense hinges upon the word "freely." This is the glorious, the suitable, the divine way by which love streams from heaven to earth, a spontaneous love flowing forth to those who neither deserved it, purchased it, nor sought after it. It is, indeed, the only way in which God can love such as we are. The text is a death-blow to all sorts of fitness: "I will love them freely." Now, if there were any fitness necessary in us, then he would not love us freely; at least, this would be a mitigation and a drawback to the freeness of it. But it stands, "I will love you freely." We complain, "Lord, my heart is so hard." "I will love you freely." "But I do not feel my need of Christ as I could wish." "I will not love you because you feel your need; I will love you freely." "But I do not feel that softening of spirit which I could desire." Remember, the softening of spirit is not a condition, for there are no conditions; the covenant of grace has no conditionality whatever; so that we without any fitness may venture upon the promise of God which was made to us in Christ Jesus, when he said, "He that believeth on him is not condemned." It is blessed to know that the grace of God is free to us at all times, without preparation, without fitness, without money, and without price! "I will love them freely." These words invite backsliders to return: indeed, the text was specially written for such--"I will heal their backsliding; I will love them freely." Backslider! surely the generosity of the promise will at once break your heart, and you will return, and seek your injured Father's face. - CHARLES SPURGEON
...We were lost and unable to save ourselves. So God sent Heaven's Search and Rescue best, JESUS who gave His life in rescuing them!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 27, 2016 - 09:42am PT
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And can it be?
And can it be that I should gain
An int'rest in the Savior's blood?
Died He for me, who caused His pain?
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! how can it be
That Thou, my God, should die for me?
Refrain:
Amazing love! how can it be
That Thou, my God, should die for me!
He left His Father's throne above,
So free, so infinite His grace;
Emptied Himself of all but love,
And bled for Adam's helpless race;
'Tis mercy all, immense and free;
For, O my God, it found out me. [Refrain]
Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night;
Thine eye diffused a quick'ning ray,
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free;
I rose, went forth and followed Thee. [Refrain]
No condemnation now I dread;
Jesus, and all in Him is mine!
Alive in Him, my living Head,
And clothed in righteousness divine,
Bold I approach th'eternal throne,
And claim the crown, through Christ my own. [Refrain]
-Charles Wesley
God’s Call to Repentance
Luke 15:11-24
In the parable of the prodigal son, the younger brother asked for his inheritance early so he might live as he chose. Once the father gave him his share, the young man made many unwise choices that led to hunger and destitution. What happened next illustrates the principles of godly repentance.
After squandering all of his money, the wayward son found work feeding pigs, a bottom-of-the-barrel kind of job. One day he came to his senses and recognized his terrible plight. His repentance began with an awareness of his wrong choices and the fact that his bad situation was due to them.
Knowing that his difficulties came from unrighteous behavior, the prodigal grieved over his mistakes and acknowledged his sin (Luke 15:18). He declared he was no longer worthy to be his father’s son. Godly sorrow and confession led the young man to leave that place and go home. His repentance was made complete when he turned away from his old ways and returned to his father. The Lord likewise calls us to repent and return to Him.
What a welcome the prodigal son received! Upon seeing him, the father was filled with compassion and ran to embrace him. Forgiveness and acceptance were extended to the son. Both are blessings that God freely offers to whoever asks Him.
The prodigal son did not clean himself up before returning home. He simply left his old life, turned toward home, and trusted in his father’s mercy. The heavenly Father calls us to repent and offers us forgiveness when we turn away from our self-centered ways and move toward godliness (1 John 1:9).
https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/gods-call-to-repentance
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 28, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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Psalm 65
There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God, And to You the vow will be performed.
O You who hear prayer, To You all men come.
Iniquities prevail against me; As for our transgressions, You forgive them.
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You To dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple.
By awesome deeds You answer us in righteousness, O God of our salvation, You who are the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea;
Who establishes the mountains by His strength, Being girded with might;
Who stills the roaring of the seas, The roaring of their waves, And the tumult of the peoples.
They who dwell in the ends of the earth stand in awe of Your signs; You make the dawn and the sunset shout for joy.
You visit the earth and cause it to overflow; You greatly enrich it; The stream of God is full of water; You prepare their grain, for thus You prepare the earth.
You water its furrows abundantly, You settle its ridges, You soften it with showers, You bless its growth.
You have crowned the year with Your bounty, And Your paths drip with fatness.
The pastures of the wilderness drip, And the hills gird themselves with rejoicing.
The meadows are clothed with flocks And the valleys are covered with grain; They shout for joy, yes, they sing.
Our Generous Provider
Psalm 65
Generosity is usually a term we apply to people, but have you ever considered how generous the Lord is toward us? First of all, He created the earth and all it contains as a habitation for mankind. He made the sun to give light and cause vegetation to grow, and He sends rain to water the land and quench our thirst. The Lord has abundantly made provision for our physical needs.
This alone should cause us to stand in awe of His love and care for us, but His generosity doesn’t end with the physical necessities. He’s also provided for all our spiritual needs through His Son. As a result of Jesus’ death on the cross for our sins, we who believe in Him are reconciled to God and given a wealth of spiritual blessings. We have His Word to guide us, His Spirit to empower and transform us into Christ’s image, and His church to encourage and support us. Yet His generosity doesn’t end there.
The Lord has also promised us an imperishable, undefiled, and unfading inheritance in heaven. (See 1 Pet. 1:4.) All that He has prepared for us is beyond our human understanding, but Revelation 21 and 22 describe the new heaven and earth as a place of abundance and blessing, untainted by sin and death.
In light of all that the Lord has so richly provided and promised, gratitude should be our first response. However, since we are His people, who are called to walk in His Spirit, we should also be characterized by generosity toward others. That means meeting not only physical needs but also spiritual ones by proclaiming the gospel and encouraging fellow believers.
https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/our-generous-provider
...God is good, very very good!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 30, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
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No, not one - Johnson Oatman, Jr., 1895
There’s not a friend like the lowly Jesus,
No, not one! No, not one!
None else could heal all our soul’s diseases,
No, not one! No, not one!
Refrain:
Jesus knows all about our struggles,
He will guide till the day is done;
There’s not a friend like the lowly Jesus,
No, not one! No, not one!
No friend like Him is so high and holy,
No, not one! No, not one!
And yet no friend is so meek and lowly,
No, not one! No, not one!
There’s not an hour that He is not near us,
No, not one! No, not one!
No night so dark but His love can cheer us,
No, not one! No, not one!
Did ever saint find this Friend forsake him?
No, not one! No, not one!
Or sinner find that He would not take him?
No, not one! No, not one!
Was e’er a gift like the Savior given?
No, not one! No, not one!
Will He refuse us a home in heaven?
No, not one! No, not one!
The Joyful Sound
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D. | Oct. 30, 2016
“Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.” (Psalm 89:15)
Many have been the Christians who have joined in singing “We have heard the joyful sound: Jesus saves; Jesus saves!” Not all have known, however, that this beautiful phrase comes from a great psalm extolling God’s marvelous works of creation and then His promises of redemption.
“The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. The north and the south thou hast created them” (Psalm 89:11-12). Earlier verses note that “the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD” (v. 5), speaking of the angels, “the sons of the mighty” (v. 6), literally, “the sons of God.” It is exciting to realize that the very first “joyful sound” was heard when God “laid the foundations of the earth.” Then it was that “the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy” (Job 38:4, 7).
There was also a joyful sound when Christ was born, and the angel came bringing “good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born . . . a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. . . . And suddenly there was . . . the heavenly host praising God” (Luke 2:10-11, 13).
Whenever a soul is saved, there is another joyful sound: “Joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth,” said Jesus (Luke 15:7). Finally, there will be a most wonderful sound of joy on Earth when the Lord comes again. “And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away” (Isaiah 35:10). Therefore, even now, “my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation” (Psalm 35:9). HMM http://www.icr.org/article/9570/
...looking to fill your opening in the Heavenly choir, no singing experience needed!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Oct 30, 2016 - 07:24pm PT
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I Solomon said unto him: "Beelzeboul, what is thy employment?" And he answered me: "I destroy kings. I ally myself with foreign tyrants. And my own demons I set onto men, in order that the latter may believe in them and be lost. And the chosen servants of God, priests and faithful men, I excite unto desires for wicked sins, and evil heresies, and lawless deeds; and they obey me, and I bear them on to destruction. And I inspire men with envy, and desire for murder, and for wars and sodomy, and other evil things. And I will destroy the world.
So I said to him: "Bring to me thy child, who is, as thou sayest, in the Red Sea." But he said to me: "I will not bring him to thee. But there shall come to me another demon called Ephippas. Him will I bind, and he will bring him up from the deep unto me." And I said to him: "How comes thy son to be in the depth of the sea, and what is his name? "And he answered me: "Ask me not, for thou canst not learn from me. However, he will come to thee by any command, and will tell thee openly.
I said to him: "Tell me by what angel thou art frustrated." And he answered: "By the holy and precious name of the Almighty God, called by the Hebrews by a row of numbers, of which the sum is 644, and among the Greeks it is Emmanuel1. And if one of the Romans adjure me by the great name of the power Eleéth, I disappear at once."
excerpt from the ancient scroll document, The Testament of Solomon.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Oct 31, 2016 - 07:04am PT
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That which can be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence.
Thread dead.
TY
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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"I am the Lord, I change not."
Malachi 3:6
It is well for us that, amidst all the variableness of life, there is One whom change cannot affect; One whose heart can never alter, and on whose brow mutability can make no furrows. All things else have changed--all things are changing. The sun itself grows dim with age; the world is waxing old; the folding up of the worn-out vesture has commenced; the heavens and earth must soon pass away; they shall perish, they shall wax old as doth a garment; but there is One who only hath immortality, of whose years there is no end, and in whose person there is no change. The delight which the mariner feels, when, after having been tossed about for many a day, he steps again upon the solid shore, is the satisfaction of a Christian when, amidst all the changes of this troublous life, he rests the foot of his faith upon this truth--"I am the Lord, I change not."
The stability which the anchor gives the ship when it has at last obtained a hold-fast, is like that which the Christian's hope affords him when it fixes itself upon this glorious truth. With God "is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." Whatever his attributes were of old, they are now; his power, his wisdom, his justice, his truth, are alike unchanged. He has ever been the refuge of his people, their stronghold in the day of trouble, and he is their sure Helper still. He is unchanged in his love. He has loved his people with "an everlasting love"; he loves them now as much as ever he did, and when all earthly things shall have melted in the last conflagration, his love will still wear the dew of its youth. Precious is the assurance that he changes not! The wheel of providence revolves, but its axle is eternal love.
"Death and change are busy ever,
Man decays, and ages move;
But his mercy waneth never;
God is wisdom, God is love."
CHARLES SPURGEON
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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4832 posts and you geniuses haven't sorted this out yet?
No wonder people believe in God!
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rockrat13
Trad climber
Eagle Mountain, UT
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Those that don't must only climb in the gym or stay down in the boulders. I've met atheists, but never a true one, they seem to be just telling themselves that so they don't have to be responsible to God. No person in there right mind can truly believe this universe in all it's magnitude just happened. The point is it's not suppose to be easy to believe in God, but everything denotes the existence of a GOD. Every animal organism,every plant organism, snow flakes, frozen waterfalls, the Granite in Yosemite, the slot canyons of the desert the list is endless. Man is merely a spec in all of gods creations. If you ever climb something beyond your limits all alone you'll wish you new God, because that's the only way you'll make it out alive. He is the ALPHA and the OMEGA.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Theism is a perversion of god. Atheism is the denial of god. Neither of which are a sin, because sin is a construct of theism, thus is meaningless. Humans will never be able to get over themselves....nor should they.
Meanwhile....god exists in quiet perfection
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Yo!
I-b goB,( no got that wrong ) i-b-goB
I am
You are not
Knot even close
Sputtering the lies that have led to this dismal society that rejects my true words
As to one it is so to, with all now.
You
Make a mockery of my finest creations
And mistreat them
Reduce them instead of holding them up as the holy seplecures that they are?
Do you read? Read this,
GotD will not be found & is not wrote learning
of lying deceitful mutterings, of self-serving (sieving)false prophets....
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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The Happiness of Those Whose Help Is the Lord
146 Praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord, O my soul!
2 While I live I will praise the Lord;
I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 Do not put your trust in princes,
Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
In that very day his plans perish.
5 Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help,
Whose hope is in the Lord his God,
6 Who made heaven and earth,
The sea, and all that is in them;
Who keeps truth forever,
7 Who executes justice for the oppressed,
Who gives food to the hungry.
The Lord gives freedom to the prisoners.
8 The Lord opens the eyes of the blind;
The Lord raises those who are bowed down;
The Lord loves the righteous.
9 The Lord watches over the strangers;
He relieves the fatherless and widow;
But the way of the wicked He turns upside down.
10 The Lord shall reign forever—
Your God, O Zion, to all generations.
Praise the Lord!
Blessed! Precious Is Our Freedom / http://www.davidjeremiah.org
The LORD gives freedom to the prisoners.
Psalm 146:7b
Have you ever thought of the river of blood that has preserved our freedoms? As it relates to America, more than 4,000 soldiers died during the American Revolution. More than 2,000 perished in the War of 1812. Approximately 116,000 gave their lives during World War I. The Second World War claimed more than 405,000 U.S. military deaths. More than 54,000 American servicemen died in Korea, and 90,000 died in Vietnam. Another 8,000-plus have given their lives in the Persian Gulf Wars and the War on Terror. Add to that the 498,332 known military deaths during the Civil War, and it’s believed the total number of Americans killed in all U.S. Wars exceeds 1.1 million.
How precious is our freedom!
And how precious is the spiritual and eternal freedom gained for us by the death of the one Man, Christ Jesus. If our political freedom means so much to us, how much greater is the freedom of heart bestowed by Christ that leads to eternity!
We must always cultivate a heart of deepest gratitude for our freedoms and for those who died on our behalf. We must always remember the Savior who died on Calvary’s cross who made us “free indeed” (John 8:36).
My chains fell off, my heart was free, I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
Charles Wesley, in the hymn “And Can It Be”
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zak tessier
climber
3rd rock from the sun
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ABSOLUTELY 0 freaking clue! religion is for those too weak to believe in themselves
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Proselytizing never inspired me. It always struck me as people trying to convince themselves their faith was sound if they could convince somebody else to think the same way.
But this did...
"By their fruits ye shall know them."
Matthew 7:16
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 11, 2016 - 09:08am PT
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Thanks to all the Veterans!...
To End All Wars
“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (Isaiah 2:4)
It has been over 90 years since “The War to End All Wars” ended in victory for those who had “fought to make the world safe for democracy.” A celebration of thanksgiving followed, and a holiday was established to commemorate that great Armistice Day (now Veterans Day).
However, an even greater war soon followed, only to be repeated by innumerable local wars and revolutions. Instead of a world of liberty and democracy, many of the world’s nations are now under the brutal heel of totalitarian dictatorships. With the threat of potential nuclear obliteration hanging over the world, the prophecy of Christ is being literally fulfilled: “Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth” (Luke 21:26).
In the 25 centuries since our text was first uttered, there has been a war going on somewhere in the world at least 11 out of every 12 years, and it certainly seems unlikely that such a promise will ever be fulfilled.
Yet it is God who has promised, and only He can accomplish it. “He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people” (our text for today). “Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, . . . The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this” (Isaiah 9:7). When the Lord Jesus Christ comes again, “He shall speak peace unto the (nations): and His dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth” (Zechariah 9:10). Finally, world peace will come, and Christ “shall reign for ever and ever” (Revelation 11:15). HMM http://www.icr.org/article/9607/
...Hey Bushman and Warbler we already have our pruning hooks!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:06pm PT
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Turns out that the Biblical Coney, aka Rock Badgers, aka Hyrax is something that looks more like a ground hog!
"The conies are but a feeble folk, yet make they their houses in the rocks."
Proverbs 30:26
Conscious of their own natural defencelessness, the conies resort to burrows in the rocks, and are secure from their enemies. My heart, be willing to gather a lesson from these feeble folk. Thou art as weak and as exposed to peril as the timid cony; be as wise to seek a shelter. My best security is within the munitions of an immutable Jehovah, where his unalterable promises stand like giant walls of rock. It will be well with thee, my heart, if thou canst always hide thyself in the bulwarks of his glorious attributes, all of which are guarantees of safety for those who put their trust in him. Blessed be the name of the Lord, I have so done, and have found myself like David in Adullam, safe from the cruelty of my enemy; I have not now to find out the blessedness of the man who puts his trust in the Lord, for long ago, when Satan and my sins pursued me, I fled to the cleft of the rock Christ Jesus, and in his riven side I found a delightful resting-place. My heart, run to him anew tonight, whatever thy present grief may be; Jesus feels for thee; Jesus consoles thee; Jesus will help thee. No monarch in his impregnable fortress is more secure than the cony in his rocky burrow. The master of ten thousand chariots is not one whit better protected than the little dweller in the mountain's cleft. In Jesus the weak are strong, and the defenceless safe; they could not be more strong if they were giants, or more safe if they were in heaven. Faith gives to men on earth the protection of the God of heaven. More they cannot need, and need not wish. The conies cannot build a castle, but they avail themselves of what is there already: I cannot make myself a refuge, but Jesus has provided it, his Father has given it, his Spirit has revealed it, and lo, again tonight I enter it, and am safe from every foe.
CHARLES SPURGEON
Rock of Ages
Amy Grant
Rock of ages, cleft for me
Let me hide myself in Thee
Rock of ages, cleft for me
Let me hide myself in Thee
Let the water and the blood
From Thy riven side which flowed
Be of sin the double cure
Cleanse me from it's guilt and pow'r
Nothing in my hand I bring
Simply to Thy cross I cling
Nothing in my hand I bring
Simply to Thy cross I cling
Naked, come to Thee for dress
Helpless, look to Thee for grace
Vile, I to the fountain fly
Wash me, savior, or I die
Rock of ages, cleft for me
Let me hide myself in Thee
Rock of ages, cleft for me
Let me hide myself in Thee
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
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The fastest growing belief system in the world vis a vis a god or gods is non belief.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 22, 2016 - 02:56pm PT
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New Birth: God’s Part
John 3:9-13
Ever since the original transgression of Adam and Eve in Genesis, all of mankind has been born with a sinful nature, and our sin creates a chasm separating us from our holy, perfect God. To be able to commune with Him, we must be born again, which is the way we receive a new nature, a new spirit, and a new eternal destiny.
Spiritual rebirth is a miraculous work of the Holy Spirit—He doesn’t simply freshen up our old nature but instead brings about a radical transformation, creating a brand-new spirit and life. As 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature” (emphasis added). As a result, believers can worship, praise, and serve the living God out of genuine love and devotion to Him.
God’s part in this rebirth involves forgiving us of our sins, and to do that, He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross as our substitute. In that way, Jesus paid our sin debt in full. He is our sacrifice—that is, He is the one who suffered vicariously on our behalf.
Our Savior’s substitutionary atonement is the means by which a holy and righteous God forgives sin and makes us holy like Himself. Our cleansing doesn’t come from being religious, or even from confession of sin and repentance. Rather, it comes from the blood that Jesus shed on the cross at Calvary. When we believe that He died to pay the penalty we owed and then accept His sacrifice on our behalf, we are forgiven of our sins and God wipes them away (Eph. 1:7 ).
https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/new-birth-gods-part
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
...God took care of the east, west, north, and south by sending Jesus!
But we will go SOUTH with an H without Him!
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 22, 2016 - 03:22pm PT
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bet you're a lot of fun at parties
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Norton
Social climber
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Nov 22, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
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There is no real evidence, either in the Bible or in science, for evolution
keep saying that Gobee, over and over while tapping your shoes together and it will come true
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 22, 2016 - 05:59pm PT
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Hey Norton my friend evolution is a nonissue because God didn't say believe in evolution but in Jesus!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 23, 2016 - 09:51am PT
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"The power of his resurrection."
Philippians 3:10
The doctrine of a risen Saviour is exceedingly precious. The resurrection is the corner-stone of the entire building of Christianity. It is the key-stone of the arch of our salvation. It would take a volume to set forth all the streams of living water which flow from this one sacred source, the resurrection of our dear Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; but to know that he has risen, and to have fellowship with him as such--communing with the risen Saviour by possessing a risen life--seeing him leave the tomb by leaving the tomb of worldliness ourselves, this is even still more precious. The doctrine is the basis of the experience, but as the flower is more lovely than the root, so is the experience of fellowship with the risen Saviour more lovely than the doctrine itself. I would have you believe that Christ rose from the dead so as to sing of it, and derive all the consolation which it is possible for you to extract from this well-ascertained and well-witnessed fact; but I beseech you, rest not contented even there. Though you cannot, like the disciples, see him visibly, yet I bid you aspire to see Christ Jesus by the eye of faith; and though, like Mary Magdalene, you may not "touch" him, yet may you be privileged to converse with him, and to know that he is risen, you yourselves being risen in him to newness of life. To know a crucified Saviour as having crucified all my sins, is a high degree of knowledge; but to know a risen Saviour as having justified me, and to realize that he has bestowed upon me new life, having given me to be a new creature through his own newness of life, this is a noble style of experience: short of it, none ought to rest satisfied. May you both "know him, and the power of his resurrection." Why should souls who are quickened with Jesus, wear the grave-clothes of worldliness and unbelief? Rise, for the Lord is risen.
CHARLES SPURGEON
...I LUV CHUCKY!
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Nov 23, 2016 - 01:27pm PT
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I've been a Petroleum Geologist for almost 30 years. I have to learn the stratigraphy of many areas. Right now, I'm dating a Palynology collection via stratigraphy. Palynology is the study of spores and pollen.
So I've looked at rocks for decades.
The other morning, the TV was on the Trinity Broadcasting Network, home of Pat Robertson and the 700 Club, among others.
They had a 30 minute segment on Creationist "Science," and had an "expert" explain how all of the strata exposed in the Grand Canyon were laid down in a single day. Then he told some big whoppers about Carbon 14 dating.
That is not the story that the rocks tell. Not even close. I've seen some fairly spirited debates about Intelligent Design vs. Evolution, but this guy wasn't even close. He was telling bald lies.
I guess that it is important to Religion that a Creator exists. All of the evidence that there was not a creator, that there are only natural processes, is overwhelming. If there was a Creator, he took his time about it. There is no evidence of a global flood. There are countless examples of transition species in the fossil record.
If you look at the rock record, and add the fossil record to it, the story is that the planet is incredibly old. Time so deep that most people can't even grasp it. We see no evidence for a 7 day creation.
Everything points to an old Earth, and Cosmology points to an old Universe.
To accept the account in Genesis, you have to ignore the incredible amount of study that has gone into dating and understanding not just the Earth, but the whole Universe.
It would be much simpler if it all fit into a 7 day creation, trust me, but that is not the story that nature shouts.
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couchmaster
climber
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Nov 23, 2016 - 01:38pm PT
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Hey Base104, anyone having to resort to dating a Palynology collection must be pretty damned lonely. Get yerself onto OK cupid, Match.com or Eharmony man, we're worried about you. I suppose it's still better than dating sheep like some of us other Hayseeds though.
Ref quote - "Right now, I'm dating a Palynology collection"
Carry on!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 24, 2016 - 09:50am PT
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Fullness of Blessing
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
“And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.” (Romans 15:29)
One beautiful characteristic of life in Christ is its fullness. Jesus Christ is Himself “the fullness of him that filleth all in all” (Ephesians 1:23), and He does everything to the full! When He fed the multitude, there were 12 baskets left over (John 6:13); when He brought in the miraculous catch of fishes, the nets were so full that they broke, and the boats so full they began to sink (Luke 5:6-7).
First of all, He gives fullness of grace. “And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace” (John 1:16). Then comes fullness of joy and peace: “These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full” (John 15:11). “Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing” (Romans 15:13).
It is then possible—in fact, we are commanded—to be “filled with the Spirit . . . making melody in your heart to the Lord” (Ephesians 5:18-19). Not only does the Holy Spirit indwell us, but so do the Father and the Son, by the Spirit. Jesus said: “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him” (John 14:23). In this way, the triune God indwells us, and thereby we “know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that [we] might be filled with all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3:19).
All the fullness of God! In Jesus Christ “dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him” (Colossians 2:9-10), “for it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell” (Colossians 1:19). With the resources of such fullness of blessing available to us, we should be constantly growing “unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13). HMM http://www.icr.org/article/9620/
Luke 6:38 Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”
...Double down goodness!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 24, 2016 - 10:07am PT
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LMAO at how evangelically the anti-theists proselytize. They believe in evolution but
don't believe that Hillary lost.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Nov 30, 2016 - 10:25am PT
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Enjoying Life
Ecclesiastes 2:1-23
Not only was King Solomon the wisest man who ever lived (1 Kings 3:12); he was also blessed with wealth beyond imagination and the privilege of building God’s temple. So we might expect him to know deep contentment.
In searching for that profound fulfillment, Solomon devoted himself to exploring all kinds of things. Ecclesiastes tells us that he indulged in the pleasures of the world, even dabbling in pursuits he recognized as folly to see if there was anything worthwhile in them. But the satisfaction Solomon sought evaded him, and he concluded that self-indulgence was without value.
To feel content, the king tried another avenue: personal achievement. He undertook great projects, such as building houses for himself, improving the environment with gardens and parks, and carrying out an extensive irrigation project (Eccl. 2:4-6). The king had everything he could ever need to enjoy life, but in the end, he concluded it was all without meaning.
The story has a familiar ring, doesn’t it? Our world has many highly educated and successful people, but there is also much dissatisfaction. Our culture pursues pleasure and does not accept limits on its passions. Sadly, such lack of restraint has ruined countless lives.
Solomon possessed the wisdom and resources to accomplish whatever he decided to do. Yet the goals that he pursued brought no lasting contentment. He concluded that the best course was to obey God (Eccl. 12:13). True enjoyment comes only when we align ourselves with His will. Any other way is meaningless.
Liberty Versus License
November 30, 2016
Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.
Philippians 4:8
Recommended Reading: 1 Peter 2:15-16
Parents teach children about boundaries: moral, ethical, legal, courtesy, and safety boundaries. Boundaries are established because of man’s propensity to sin: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9) Fortunately, the boundaries that surround what is true, noble, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous, and praiseworthy are huge—seemingly limitless.
We can spend a lifetime pursuing things that are pleasing to God without running out of options. The danger is the heart: The heart wants to turn liberty into license. The heart says, “I’m free to do what I want!” But God says, “You’re free to do what I want.” And once we realize how big that freedom is, it’s hard to want anything more.
Don’t confuse liberty in Christ with license for carnality. A lot of things are possible in life that are not edifying or wise (1 Corinthians 10:23).
Freedom is not the right to do as you please; it is the liberty to do as you ought.
Anonymous
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Nov 30, 2016 - 11:51am PT
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I'll take license for carnality, thank you very much.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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"O that men would praise the Lord for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men."
Psalm 107:8
If we complained less, and praised more, we should be happier, and God would be more glorified. Let us daily praise God for common mercies--common as we frequently call them, and yet so priceless, that when deprived of them we are ready to perish. Let us bless God for the eyes with which we behold the sun, for the health and strength to walk abroad, for the bread we eat, for the raiment we wear. Let us praise him that we are not cast out among the hopeless, or confined amongst the guilty; let us thank him for liberty, for friends, for family associations and comforts; let us praise him, in fact, for everything which we receive from his bounteous hand, for we deserve little, and yet are most plenteously endowed. But, beloved, the sweetest and the loudest note in our songs of praise should be of redeeming love. God's redeeming acts towards his chosen are forever the favourite themes of their praise. If we know what redemption means, let us not withhold our sonnets of thanksgiving. We have been redeemed from the power of our corruptions, uplifted from the depth of sin in which we were naturally plunged. We have been led to the cross of Christ--our shackles of guilt have been broken off; we are no longer slaves, but children of the living God, and can antedate the period when we shall be presented before the throne without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Even now by faith we wave the palm-branch and wrap ourselves about with the fair linen which is to be our everlasting array, and shall we not unceasingly give thanks to the Lord our Redeemer? Child of God, canst thou be silent? Awake, awake, ye inheritors of glory, and lead your captivity captive, as ye cry with David, "Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name." Let the new month begin with new songs.
CHARLES SPURGEON
...God is Good!
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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"You are going to what you want to, if that's what you think you need to do."
One of the greatest hypocrisies in religion today is is the fact that believers rely upon science for 99% of their survival along with the rest of us non believers. There's no denying it. Scientist using scientific theories and the scientific methods have developed the life enhancing and life destroying inventions, devices, machines, and infrastructures of our world today, be it climbing equipment, food production, housing, industry, communications, transportation, medical treatment, defense, penitentiaries, nuclear arsenals, research and development, or exploration.
Religious people use most or all of these technologies to survive and yet attribute all of life, the universe, and science itself to being the works of God. I say their leaders and espousers of such, by laying claim to the work of men of science as being part of gods glory, are guilty of a sham. They are irresponsible children who believe in hocus pocus, fairies, and wishes (prayers). They are charlatans or worse.
Too bad religion is so steeped and ingrained in society we can't hope to free ourselves from the bonds of people who would purposely bring on Armageddon just to try and prove the point that it is prophecy. They would damn us and our children along with them. It takes more balls to ask hard questions, to protest and challenge authority, than to lay down like sheep and believe in the wife abuser, child abuser, man lie that is Abrahamic religion.
-bushman
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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God's Shining Face
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
“The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee.” (Numbers 6:25)
This request is part of the well-known Mosaic benediction for the children of Israel (Numbers 6:24-27). The first occurrence in verb form of the word “shine” is in this verse, although in the noun form, translated as “light,” it appears in the third verse of the Bible when God said, “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3).
True light comes only from God, since “God is light” (1 John 1:5). As the world depends on the sunshine for its physical life, so we continually must receive the Son’s shining in our hearts to sustain our spiritual life.
It is noteworthy that the prayer of our text occurs seven other times in the Scriptures. These are as follows:
“Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: save me for thy mercies’ sake” (Psalm 31:16); “God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; ” (Psalm 67:1); “Turn us again, O LORD God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved” (Psalm 80:19; also vv. 3, 7); “Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; and teach me thy statutes” (Psalm 119:135); “O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord’s sake” (Daniel 9:17).
Since God, in His omnipotence, dwells “in the light which no man can approach unto” (1 Timothy 6:16), He shines on us for salvation, spiritual illumination, and daily guidance only through His Son, the Word made flesh, for “in him was life; and the life was the light of men” (John 1:4). “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6). HMM http://www.icr.org/article/9655/
...Let the sunshine, let the Son shine in! : )
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Evolution, like eternity, takes a really long time. Outside of scientific studies of the natural world, we are not likely to witness the evidence of evolution in our lifetime. Now I must go visit my cousin, Fredo, at the zoo. Fredo cracks me up every time I see him. He lives in the ape exhibit with the other orangutans. Life of the party, that one.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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I'm a fan, Bushman, but there is a ton of evidence for evolution, and not only indirect evidence. It has been observed and documented, period. Read Why Evolution is True by Jerry Coyne or The Beak of the Finch by Jonathon Weiner. We met, by the way, at Humber Park in 1976.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Why a scary large number of people believe that the son of god was born of a virgin, performed a bunch of miracles, and then was crucified before rising from the dead and ascending into heaven but don't believe in evolution is a total mystery to me.
Yeah, the God who created us and everything else felt the need to send his one and only son down to atone for our sins by being crucified on a cross.....sure, happens all of the time in other galaxies.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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I was only pointing out that many don't see the evidence of evolutionary change without looking at it from a scientific perspective. It's evidence is all around us and in our biology, in our chromosomes, in the water we drink, preserved in stone, and fueling our machines.
Humber Park, can you give me a more specific clue, eeyonkee? My memory has devolved somewhat since way back then. Thanks, I will check out the reading you recommended sometime soon.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Mr Donini, I've visited those other galaxies and they don't do any of that sacrifice your kid, or crucify god's kids things like that there. That must a new thing, like just in the last 2000 years.
Kids these days...
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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"I have much people in this city."
Acts 18:10
This should be a great encouragement to try to do good, since God has among the vilest of the vile, the most reprobate, the most debauched and drunken, an elect people who must be saved. When you take the Word to them, you do so because God has ordained you to be the messenger of life to their souls, and they must receive it, for so the decree of predestination runs. They are as much redeemed by blood as the saints before the eternal throne. They are Christ's property, and yet perhaps they are lovers of the ale-house, and haters of holiness; but if Jesus Christ purchased them he will have them. God is not unfaithful to forget the price which his Son has paid. He will not suffer his substitution to be in any case an ineffectual, dead thing. Tens of thousands of redeemed ones are not regenerated yet, but regenerated they must be; and this is our comfort when we go forth to them with the quickening Word of God.
Nay, more, these ungodly ones are prayed for by Christ before the throne. "Neither pray I for these alone," saith the great Intercessor, "but for them also which shall believe on me through their word." Poor, ignorant souls, they know nothing about prayer for themselves, but Jesus prays for them. Their names are on his breastplate, and ere long they must bow their stubborn knee, breathing the penitential sigh before the throne of grace. "The time of figs is not yet." The predestinated moment has not struck; but, when it comes, they shall obey, for God will have his own; they must, for the Spirit is not to be withstood when he cometh forth with fulness of power--they must become the willing servants of the living God. "My people shall be willing in the day of my power." "He shall justify many." "He shall see of the travail of his soul." "I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong."
CHARLES SPURGEON
...CLAIMED BY CHRIST HIMSELF SO DON'T FIGHT IT, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! : )
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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If I understood the multiple religions which I explored rather fruitlessly for many years before giving up on it, God is ineffable. Right?
Ineffable.
It seems as though some who agree that he/she/it is ineffable have found some sort of avenue right into his/her/its mind. Or perhaps they are persuaded by their own interpretation of a book written thousands of years ago by a hodge-podge of rather primitive people in one or more archaic languages, translated through dozens of languages, in multiple versions, edited depending on the politics of the time, and still detailing some horrible pronouncements - which are avoided by the book's adherents.
Secular humanism would seem to incorporate all that Jesus preached, in terms of human relationships, while denying the existence of God and an afterlife. Seems like a beneficial attitude -though not a religion - which would be valuable in today's world.
Interesting quote:
"There are scores of thousands of human insects who are ready at a moment's notice to reveal the will of God on every possible subject."
George Bernard Shaw
I wish he hadn't got into entomology there, as it is gratuitously insulting. And you can understand believers who have been indoctrinated since childhood. But scratch "insects" and the statement is true.
Of course this will attract thunderbolts. But one can't argue with true believers when there is no evidence on any side, so I'll not post again on this.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Good link, Moose!
Tim, I can hardly remember the El Cap routes that I've done, but for some reason I remember the time that I was on my way back from spending a winter on Vancouver Island. I was driving this car owned by one of my Canadian friends who stayed and couldn't get this American car registered in Canada. I decided to spend the night in Humber Park for the last night of my journey. I just remember running into you and hanging out together for a bit. I was one of the Poway Mountaineers and knew Tobin. Not much of a story.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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What Child Is This?
BY DAVID JEREMIAH
The two trajectories of Infinity and Infancy crossed at Bethlehem, making Christmas a mystery that flows like a bottomless river from the depths of God’s heart. On the most remarkable night that ever was, a baby cried and eternity was changed. In a stable in Bethlehem, the God-baby passed from a virgin’s womb into humanity and into history. A child was born; a Son was given; a Savior came down from heaven, and earth received her King.
We’ve never gotten over it. His name was Jesus, and we’ve never gotten over Him.But why did Jesus come in this way, as a baby? What if Christ had chosen to descend from heaven fully grown? What if He had simply appeared on earth at age 33, ready to die for our sins? Why did God choose to bring the Savior of the world to us through a process of supernatural conception and natural birth?
Everything about the Gospel is bound up in that question, and all the answers are in God’s Word.
First, Jesus came into the world as an infant so the bloodline of all humanity would flow through His veins. The New Testament begins with these words: “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham” (Matthew 1:1). In Luke’s account, Jesus’ line of descent goes all the way back to Adam (Luke 3:38). Jesus didn’t simply come to die for us; He came to shed His blood for all the world, and the lineage of all the world was in His blood.
Second, through the miracle of the Virgin Birth, Jesus acquired a twofold nature, being both God and Man. He is unique, fully human and fully divine, simultaneously. Nothing about His humanity detracts from His godliness; nothing about His godliness detracts from His humanity. As God, He has the power to save; as Man, He has the ability to provide salvation by dying for our sins. Only through this can He reconcile the Father in heaven with His children on earth. He is the bridge by which God comes to earth and by which people come to heaven.
Noted theologian Wayne Grudem wrote:
It probably would have been possible for God to create Jesus as a complete human being in heaven and send him to descend from heaven to earth without the benefit of any human parent. But then it would have been very hard for us to see how Jesus could be fully human as we are…. On the other hand, it probably would have been possible for God to have Jesus come into the world with two human parents, both a father and a mother, and with his full divine nature miraculously united to His human nature at some point early in His life. But then it would have been hard for us to understand how Jesus was fully God, since his origin was like ours in every way…. God, in his wisdom, ordained a combination of human and divine influence in the birth of Christ, so that his full humanity would be evident to us from the fact of his ordinary human birth from a human mother, and his full deity would be evident from the fact of his conception in Mary’s womb by the powerful work of the Holy Spirit.1
Third, Jesus also came as a newborn baby to fulfill the possibility of living a perfect life. He had 33 years to demonstrate His righteousness before giving His life as a sinless substitute. Even His executioner proclaimed, “Certainly this was a righteous Man!” (Luke 23:47) His chief apostle called Him “a lamb without blemish and without spot” (1 Peter 1:19). Dr. G. Campbell Morgan put it like this: “The death of Christ would have been of no avail for the redemption of the world, had it not been preceded by His perfect life.”2
Earlier this year, an interesting letter arrived at the town hall of Owendale, Michigan. It contained an apology and some money—fifty dollars. The anonymous writer said he had been drinking heavily one night during the holidays sometime in the 1960s and had stolen lights off the town Christmas tree near the town tavern. He had endured years of remorse, and so no, at last, he wanted to pay for what he had stolen.
Every human being since Adam has battled a guilty conscience—except for Christ, whose conscience was as pure as His life. Because of that we can draw near to Him “in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience…” (Hebrews 10:22).
Fourth, Jesus came as a baby and grew to manhood as we do so He could identify with every phase of our lives. The Bible says,
Both the one who makes people holy [Jesus] and those who are made holy [us] are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters…. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, He is able to help those who are being tempted. (Hebrews 2:11-18, NIV)
Fifth, Jesus came as a baby to show us the importance of families. Before God created the institution of the state, the entity of the Church, or the nation of Israel, He created a home—a family, starting with Adam and Eve. How fitting, then, that the Lord would begin the process of bringing salvation to the world within the context of another couple—Joseph and Mary. As Nicole Cottrell points out,
God chose for the Savior of the world to be born into, what else, but a family. God knows that families can provide the support, encouragement, discipline, and love that we need to become whole and healthy. God chose for Jesus, the Savior of the world, to be raised by a mother and father, surrounded by siblings and other family members… [Jesus] was born into a family because families are important to God.3
That’s why Christmas is so child-friendly. Have you noticed how children are drawn to nativity sets? Later in this edition of Turning Points, I’ll give you some suggestions for using a simple nativity set to teach children the great truths of Jesus and His Gospel. But for now, just think of the wonder in the hearts of children as they hear the words, “Away in a manger, no crib for a bed, / The little Lord Jesus laid down His sweet head.” Children are mentioned about a hundred times in the Gospels, and the One who wants the little children to come to Him provided a wonderful starting point for them—His own picturesque birth in a stable filled with hay and hallelujahs.
I love the carols of Christmas, but sometimes they have a pensive, almost melancholy, mood to them. That’s all right. The Incarnation is a story that tugs at the heart of all the world and sends its shafts of meaning to the very depths of our souls. One example of a plaintive carol is “What Child Is This?” He’s the one whom shepherds guard and angels sing. He is God and Man, Lord and Savior, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. He’s Savior and He’s Judge. He’s the Lamb and the Lion. He’s Lover of all and Lord of all. He came as a tender baby to share the bloodline of all humanity; to combine in Himself a twofold nature to save us from our sins; to demonstrate perfect righteousness; to identify with us in every way; and to show us the importance of families.
If God so thoroughly planned a way for you to be reconciled to Himself, isn’t Christmas the perfect time to receive that gift? Isn’t now the time to be saved? There’s no greater tragedy than putting down this article without saying: “Lord, if You were born to die for me, I’m ready to proclaim You as my Lord and Savior right now.”
Do as the shepherds of Bethlehem did that night long ago. Bow before Him, behold Him, believe Him, and go tell someone else about Him this Christmas!
Haste, haste to bring Him laud,
The Babe, the Son of Mary.
...Mr. Donini, not sure why God picked our Earth for this but I'm glad He did! : )
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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The Christian's Position
by Henry M. Morris III, D.Min.
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.” (Ephesians 1:4)
The search for identity and meaning can drive one to great successes or tragic failures. For the Christian, however, the question is answered throughout Ephesians.
We are chosen! We are selected as a favorite out of “many [who] are called” (Matthew 22:14) “out of the world” (John 15:19). What a privilege! We are God’s choice to bear His name, represent His cause, and share His glory throughout eternity.
In fact, we are “predestinated [previous boundaries set] . . . unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself” (Ephesians 1:5). And “if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17).
Furthermore, we have been “accepted in the beloved” (Ephesians 1:6). That word, “accepted,” is a specialized form of the word most often translated “grace.” We have been “graced” by almighty God, who has set absolute boundaries around our lives and made us His children. We were purchased “through his blood” (v. 7) “that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar [that is, ‘precious’] people, zealous of good works” (Titus 2:14).
Moreover, we are forgiven (Ephesians 1:7)! Our sins are “covered” (Psalm 32:1); “cast” behind God’s back (Isaiah 38:17); removed “as far as the east is from the west” (Psalm 103:12); “remember[ed] . . . no more” (Jeremiah 31:34); and cleansed “from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).
Hallelujah! Since we are God’s children, we should have no identity crisis. We are a chosen, predestined, accepted, redeemed, forgiven, and holy people. Finally, we are predestined “to be conformed to the image of his Son” (Romans 8:29). HMM III http://www.icr.org/article/9657/
...We love, because He first loved us and who doesn't love a rich friend!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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goB, how might I know that it is really Jesus and the Christian God and not, say Mohammed and Allah that we should be worshipping? Why not display some spam from The Koran?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Why not display some spam from The Koran?
Uh, because Muslims don't do the pork thing?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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re: bliss of ignorance
Maybe the bliss of ignorance would've been better?
"Well, it's not like psychologists don't tell you that. All those positive illusion people - that's their whole shtick. That's right, it's better to be a little bit dumb about how things work because otherwise there's no way you can be happy. It's like that's an idiotic notion on two counts - (a) Happy isn't the point and (b) Dumb is not the goal."
"It's so ignorant it's actually corrupt.... It's a hell of a thing to teach people. You have to delude yourself in a minor way, otherwise you can't stand being alive. Oh my god. That's awful."
"Here's a different story: Maybe you're tough enough to open your eyes. That would be a much better story. And it's possible too. Because people are really really tough."
Jordan Peterson
Maps of Meaning
Years ago here I enjoyed making the point re belief and belief systems: When it's not about facts, it's often about attitude.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”. ...
Werner Heisenberg
I may never reach the bottom of the glass, but it's an interesting statement.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 14, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
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An Introduction to Christ
Revelation 1:4-8
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
John gives us a compact description of the Lord. Verse 5 in today’s passage condenses the wondrous nature of Jesus Christ to the bare but beautiful essentials of who He is.
Jesus Christ is the faithful witness. Jesus came to earth to more fully reveal the character and ways of the Father (John 14:9). The miracles He performed validated His claim to be the Son of God.
Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead. The Savior bore our sins and died on the cross, was buried, and rose again on the third day. His resurrection proved that eternal life is possible for us, too, which is what Jesus taught when He said, “He who believes in Me will live even if he dies” (John 11:25).
Jesus Christ is ruler over the kings of the earth. The Lord raises men to power, just as it is He who removes them (John 19:11; see also Rom. 13:1). And believers have access to a higher authority than human leaders. In God’s throne room, we can beseech Him on behalf of our land and lay claim to His promises.
Jesus Christ loves us and, by His blood, released us from our sins. Note the change of tense in Revelation 1:5. The Lord’s love is ever-present, but He has freed believers from their past (NIV). Both the penalty and power of sin have been broken by His sacrifice.
When people ask you about Jesus, introduce Him by guiding them through this mini biography. In just a few sentences, John describes Christ’s character, divinity, and authority. The disciple was not timid about proclaiming the Lord to whomever he encountered. We shouldn’t be shy, either, when we serve so great a Savior. https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/an-introduction-to-christ
...Jesus 101 - Jesus is BOSS!
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Dec 14, 2016 - 03:42pm PT
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I would imagine if you were to do a statistical analysis, you would find an extremely high correlation between what people believe and what their parents believe. Certainly there would be a very high correlation coefficient in Muslim countries - probably well above 90 percent. It would probably a little lower among Christians (I, myself, am a "lapsed Catholic"). So, statistically, this is the correct answer -- it is because their parents believe/believed in God.
Why humans, as a species, have a strong tendency to believe in a God is a different question altogether. This is an evolutionary biology question, the answer of which will eventually be teased out of the data, in my opinion.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Dec 14, 2016 - 05:51pm PT
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you would find an extremely high correlation between what people believe and what their parents believe.
That bridge goes both ways. I can see how letting your kids come up with their own beliefs is a rational decision from an atheistic point of view, but you gotta cut parents who want to pass on their faith some slack.
Look at it from our perspective, if you had knowledge that you believed to be true and also believed it would greatly improve the lives of your kids in this life and the next, wouldn't you share it?
In a practical sense, if they had an illness and you had the medicine, would you not tell them about it? I think most parents would. We simply do not agree on whether the medicine helps (or is real).
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Dec 14, 2016 - 07:03pm PT
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Ya I bet you're right about that.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 14, 2016 - 07:59pm PT
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Good points above. Concur on correlation re my folks to me. I failed re my kids due ro divorce and other spiritual factors.
I have a degree in engineering. I an smart and skeptical. Having studied the evidence (Bible, etc) the preponderance of evidence suggests the Resurrection occurred, and Jesus defeated death abs paid the price for a wanker like me. For which I give thanks.
From Bimini.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 14, 2016 - 09:39pm PT
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Malemute: The human brain appears to be hardwired to find causes for any "effect" experienced in the world, from eerie sounds, to scary thunder, to terrifying ground shakes, and deadly diseases.
Enter Science.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 17, 2016 - 10:40am PT
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Little Children
“And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:2-3)
Many adult Christians have the mistaken notion that little children are too young to understand the gospel and so should not be allowed to decide for Christ until they are much older. The problem, however, is not the children; it is the adults who find it hard to understand! They must become like little children before they can really comprehend the way of salvation and be converted. Jesus said, “Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. . . . Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein” (Luke 18:16-17).
After all, what is there to understand? A very young child, instructed in the Scriptures from infancy as God has commanded his parents (note 2 Timothy 3:15, which uses the Greek word for “baby” as the state in which young Timothy began to know the Bible), can surely comprehend that the God to whom his parents pray made him, that he has sinned against God when he does wrong, that God sent His Son, Jesus, to die for his sins, and that Jesus can save him and take him to heaven. An adult may require much explanation and may imagine many difficulties, but a child will simply believe—and that’s enough!
The word for “little child” or “little children” actually means children who are not much more than toddlers. It is the same word rendered “young child” when the wise men came to find Jesus in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:8, etc.). Little children should, by all means, be taught the gospel and should be encouraged to come to Christ before they grow too old to understand with their hearts! HMM
http://www.icr.org/article/9669/
...Children love & trust their Father!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Dec 17, 2016 - 10:59pm PT
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10 Reasons You Should Never Have a Religion
Sounds like he went through some rough stuff with religion. Hope someday he sees it's about a relationship, not some messed up man made power struggle (AKA religion)
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Dec 18, 2016 - 09:27am PT
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I am smart and skeptical.
Everyone seems to believe that, but very few believe they believe it because they're self-confirmation biased.
We believe stuff - it's how we work. We're still working out exactly how it is that we work.
Sure social influences (like our parents and friends and local community) exert a huge effect on what we believe.
But IMHO, believing that we're smart and skeptical comes more from the 4 billion years of evolution that created our parents. If we don't believe that what we believe is true, what's the use of our 4-billion-years-in-the-making belief processes anyway? We're smart and skeptical, and we believe that what we believe is true, so we're motivated to act according to our beliefs.
So sure - Jesus or Trump - believe it! if that's the way your beliefs roll. You're smart and skeptical so you're probably right.
But in the end, the value of our beliefs is not so much whether or not they're true, as it is whether or not they inspire advantageous behaviors.
The socialization of our beliefs, as a big piece of how our belief processes work, used to be wildly advantageous. But in today's informational environment, in some ways it's becoming disadvantageous.
Sure we can try to fight it by not telling our kids what we believe, or trying to be rigorously anti-social, to avoid the social entanglement of our belief creation processes.
But can we, really? IMHO, that's just not how we work.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 18, 2016 - 09:41am PT
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Many have observed that we resort to god when we (reach the bottom of the glass) where we don't know how things work. We all used to know how to fix our car. Now how many can do this? If so the complex technologies issuing from science work against widely held understanding.
More of the principle that all things carry within them the seeds of their own destruction.
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Norton
Social climber
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Dec 18, 2016 - 09:52am PT
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The 10 Best Evidences from Science that Confirm a Young Earth
The earth is only a few thousand years old. That’s a fact, plainly revealed in God’s Word. So we should expect to find plenty of evidence for its youth. And that’s what we find—in the earth’s geology, biology, paleontology, and even astronomy.
Literally hundreds of dating methods could be used to attempt an estimate of the earth’s age, and the vast majority of them point to a much younger earth than the 4.5 billion years claimed by secularists. The following series of articles presents what Answers in Genesis researchers picked as the ten best scientific evidences that contradict billions of years and confirm a relatively young earth and universe.
Despite this wealth of evidence, it is important to understand that, from the perspective of observational science, no one can prove absolutely how young (or old) the universe is. Only one dating method is absolutely reliable—a witness who doesn’t lie, who has all evidence, and who can reveal to us when the universe began!
And we do have such a witness—the God of the Bible! He has given us a specific history, beginning with the six days of Creation and followed by detailed genealogies that allow us to determine when the universe began. Based on this history, the beginning was only about six thousand years ago (about four thousand years from Creation to Christ).
https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/the-10-best-evidences-from-science-that-confirm-a-young-earth/
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Dec 18, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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^^^^^
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.
I am so incredibly tired of hearing about God, spiritual mumbo jumbo, and all of the othe supernatural bullshit that people heap upon each other in the hopes of trying to figure out why they exist and to validate their own lifelong struggles to do so.
Consequently, I have decided to cancel my membership to the human race. Please see here my official letter of resignation;
My Letter of Resignation from the Human Race
To whom it may concern and/or
Dear fellow humans,
Multiple times throughout the course of human history
Humanity has fallen victim to its own violent tendencies
And it's propensity for abject ignorance
In men's pursuit of power
And it's need to validate it's own horrific actions
In the name of religion, destiny, or biology
But due to the most recent increase of late
Of the mounting stupidity of those of our kind
Please cancel my membership
To the human race
And cancel my subscription
To the magazine also
Keep the deposit I sent just last week
But good look cashing it
For I have cashed out and have retreated
To a hole in the side of a mountain
At the furthest corner of the planet that is habitable
To await my inevitable demise
For I am loathe to witness or be a party to
The extinction level atrocity
Which you so rapidly are approaching
And to which you are hellbent to visit upon yourselves
-PaLise Leif Meeout Offit
12/18/2016
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 18, 2016 - 01:38pm PT
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John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.” 37 Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Dec 18, 2016 - 04:50pm PT
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Because religious people indoctrinate their children with terroristic threats. That's the whole Bible story. Nothing else. Believe my fancy creation mythology or suffer eternal torture by your savior.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Dec 18, 2016 - 07:51pm PT
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Unless you're taught about what you gain, not what you are trying to avoid. Like a friends says, heaven and hell don't even need to be part of the conversation.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 19, 2016 - 08:35am PT
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When people reach the "bottom of the cup", to use your terms. I see it as a time when people are exploring with more than their eyes and ears..💙
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 19, 2016 - 09:18am PT
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A VERY hopefull statistic....in just five years the number of Americans thirty and under who say they never doubt the existence of god has dropped 15% from 83% to 68%. They are the future and it seems that among them reason and logic are gaining over superstition and tradition.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 19, 2016 - 09:48am PT
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John 1
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
The Witness John
6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
...The reason for the season!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 21, 2016 - 09:10am PT
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Our True Identity
Ephesians 1:3-8
When I hear a believer say, “I’m just a sinner,” I feel like responding, “That’s what you used to be.” A lot of folks cling to a view of themselves as a patched-up, slightly-better-than-before version of their old self. The Word of God contradicts that opinion: “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Cor. 5:17). In fact, according to Scripture, we’re dramatically different once we are complete in the Lord.
The question is, Will Christians trust in what they feel, or will they believe what God says about them? His Word calls us saints (Rom. 1:7), disciples (John 13:34-35), and fellow heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17). If your opinion is that you are “just a sinner,” then you cannot fully experience and enjoy your identity as a follower of God.
Believing what the Lord says about our new self is a choice. Satan certainly schemes to convince believers that Scripture doesn’t apply to them. He knows that people held captive by spiritual poverty back away from opportunities to share the gospel and serve God’s kingdom. It’s much easier to spiritually bankrupt someone who already thinks of himself as “just a sinner” than it is to conquer a disciple who knows he is a child of the loving heavenly Father.
Our true identity is defined not by our past actions but by the Savior’s. Jesus purchased our lives with His blood and brought us into relationship with the Father, who adopted us as His beloved children. We have every reason to hold our heads high, stand firm, and courageously proclaim the gospel. https://www.intouch.org/read/magazine/daily-devotions/our-true-identity
...Jesus made me do it! ; )
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Dec 21, 2016 - 10:08am PT
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Gobi,
I am trying to respect your right to believe what you believe, that it must comfort you, and I mean not to disparage you for it. But I believe in taking the 'heat,' so to speak, by taking full responsibility or blame for my part in whatever mistakes I have made in this life. I believe that I have this one life, a brain and a physical biology, that I have no soul, and there is no hereafter.
I believe there is no overseer, or god if you will, and only our consciousnesses, which for me is myself looking at the world, and at myself. A soul? I believe it is my brain acting as my conscience, which I choose to listen to (hopefully when it is overbearingly logical) or not listen to it (when it is overbearingly emotional).
I've read some of the scripture when you post it, but mostly not, I would rather hear your personal 'take' on this discussion rather than 'rote' quotes from the bible, which I read several times cover to cover along with the Encyclopedia Brittanica and the Webster's New World Dictionary by age 12. After which, due to my own life experiences, I rejected religion and the idea of 'God' outright. Please tell us more about your opinions.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2016 - 10:52am PT
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No one points to their head when they say "I" but always to their heart which is the seat of the soul, which is the real living being within the material body.
When we make mistakes we point to our heads.
Believing is ultimately worthless .
The absolute truth is the only real science .......
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Dec 21, 2016 - 11:05am PT
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That's why you should always aim for center of mass. It's not enough to hit them in the head, you got to shoot them in the soul!
Though it makes you wonder, if someone receives a heart transplant, who's soul gets control of the body? The donor or recipient?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2016 - 11:17am PT
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Soul is eternally indestructible, but when the the heart stops or is damaged beyond repair the soul will leave the gross physical material body.
This why the light in the eyes leaves at the time the soul leaves the material body which we call "death".
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Dec 21, 2016 - 11:47am PT
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when the the heart stops or is damaged beyond repair the soul will leave the gross physical material body.
So the patient loses their soul when they remove the failing heart, and the organ donor gets to live on in a new body. Got it.
Edit: Oh wait, I forgot about those mechanical hearts they sometimes put in people. The NIH really needs to update their FAQ "What To Expect After Total Artificial Heart Surgery" to include a section on "loss of soul".
https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/tah/after
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2016 - 11:55am PT
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No
The the organ donor goes on to be reborn according to the consciousness it has developed in its present life.
The heart transplant patient gets the organ donor's physical heart and re-enters that replaced heart to go on living unless not allowed.
The not allowed part is very difficult to be explained here and easily misinterpreted and abused by those in poor fund of knowledge.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Dec 21, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
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Werner- you got some secret stash of Sunshine you've been holding out?
Bushman- exactly!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 21, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
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Donini: They are the future and it seems that among them reason and logic are gaining over superstition and tradition.
Everything comes and goes within phases. Nothing truly repeats.
At the moment reason and logic might be gaining over superstition and tradition, but I’d be hesitant to bet against the status quo at any point. You’re taking chances. With that said, I admit that everything is transient.
Whatever good you can imagine can be turned to the dark side. You KNOW this.
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Gunks Guy
Trad climber
New Paltz, NY
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Dec 21, 2016 - 08:15pm PT
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The only thing that will reverse the inexorable trend away from a belief in deities is some catastrophic event that reverses the constant, albeit inconsistent, march of science and rationality. The more educated a society is, the less it needs gods to explain or justify its existence.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 29, 2016 - 10:55am PT
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"Hitherto hath the Lord helped us."
1 Samuel 7:12
The word "hitherto" seems like a hand pointing in the direction of the past. Twenty years or seventy, and yet, "hitherto the Lord hath helped!" Through poverty, through wealth, through sickness, through health, at home, abroad, on the land, on the sea, in honour, in dishonour, in perplexity, in joy, in trial, in triumph, in prayer, in temptation, "hitherto hath the Lord helped us!" We delight to look down a long avenue of trees. It is delightful to gaze from end to end of the long vista, a sort of verdant temple, with its branching pillars and its arches of leaves; even so look down the long aisles of your years, at the green boughs of mercy overhead, and the strong pillars of lovingkindness and faithfulness which bear up your joys. Are there no birds in yonder branches singing? Surely there must be many, and they all sing of mercy received "hitherto."
But the word also points forward. For when a man gets up to a certain mark and writes "hitherto," he is not yet at the end, there is still a distance to be traversed. More trials, more joys; more temptations, more triumphs; more prayers, more answers; more toils, more strength; more fights, more victories; and then come sickness, old age, disease, death. Is it over now? No! there is more yet-awakening in Jesus' likeness, thrones, harps, songs, psalms, white raiment, the face of Jesus, the society of saints, the glory of God, the fulness of eternity, the infinity of bliss. O be of good courage, believer, and with grateful confidence raise thy "Ebenezer," for--
He who hath helped thee hitherto
Will help thee all thy journey through.
When read in heaven's light how glorious and marvellous a prospect will thy "hitherto" unfold to thy grateful eye!
CHARLES SPURGEON
...for thou art with me!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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These two go together for a good life and after...
Blessed Are the Dead
by John D. Morris, Ph.D.
“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” (Revelation 14:13)
This promise applies specifically to those recent believers who will suffer martyrdom during the last half of the awful tribulation period (“henceforth,” in context). But dealing as it does with the state of the believing dead, in principle, it surely likewise applies to all who die “in the Lord.”
How are they blessed? In numerous ways, according to this verse.
First, they are blessed in that they “rest from their labors.” In this life we earn our physical sustenance by “the sweat of [our] face” (Genesis 3:19). Here we must work hard to train our minds (Ecclesiastes 12:12). Now we constantly battle our inward, fallen nature: “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Romans 7:24). Even as we attempt to serve our fellow man, our efforts are spurned and rejected. Not so for the dead! There all these labors will cease, and joyous, eternal service to the Lamb will commence (Revelation 22:3).
Secondly, they are blessed in that their labors continue to bear fruit even after they have gone. Perhaps even a previous word or act of testimony will be the eventual tool God uses to bring someone to Himself, and the reward will be properly distributed. No act done to the glory of God will pass unnoticed.
Thirdly, what a blessing to know that this state is promised by the very Spirit of God Himself. One’s worth at death is not measured by the content and sincerity of the opinions of friends at his funeral.
This doctrine should produce both great courage for the Christian and great comfort for the bereaved. JDM http://www.icr.org/article/9712/
...Matthew 11:11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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I like you, Locker.
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