Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
|
Trip7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is indeed about a "relationship".
A relationship with logic, reason, and unfettered intellect.
A relationship that does NOT include members of the flat earth society.
Or people who insist the word of god in the bible includes implores men
to rape their wives, beat their children, or hold humans into slavery.
ALL of which are advocated by the god you INSIST wrote the bible.
So, some 90% of children "left" their church by the age of 18.
Interesting statistic.
Care to speculate WHY?
You first.
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
|
"WHY?"
Well, like i said, it is about a personal relationship based on faith.
Like all relationships, it begins with an introduction. Do you believe He actually exists? Some do some don't. But for those who do believe, there is one more step to take, they must recognize the need of His personal forgiveness and trusting Him to take over their lives. This is what Jesus explained to Nicodemus..."You must be born again!"
This is something that each person must do individually. People like Franklin Graham(son of Billy Graham)have attested to this. He became a Christian at about twenty-five, after years of "rebelling".
For some people it is a matter of pride "I have been a good person." "I have been going to church since I was born." "The Pastor was caught cheating on his wife, I have never done that."...etc.
Some people have an incredible "head knowledge" of God and Scripture, profoundly so. They may become Sunday school teachers, deacons, and even pastors of congregations large and small. But...
There are MANY church's that operate on good works etc. Preach a social gospel...but not the risen Christ.
And some kids simply know that they need to be "born again" but just want to 'sow some wild oats', and sadly, never get around to it.
There are many reasons.
But I do know this, He gives to each a measure of faith "as God has alloted to each a measure of faith." Romans 12:3
"And He has set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end." Ecclesiastes 3:11
And He has written the Ten Commandments on our hearts/conscious.
And He convicts each of us of sin/breaking those Commandments...we are all guilty. "For all have sinned and fall short..."
There are many reasons why Norton, my father was very bitter, as a matter of fact hated his father who sent him out into the world to fend for himself at a very young age(fourteenth birthday)...a cruel birthday present. And he had much difficulty embracing a loving Heavenly Father.
I am not called to explain all the short comings of the "church" on earth, or the inadequacys and downfalls of a fallen race.
But I am called to share the good news of a risen redeemer named Jesus Christ.
EDIT: "How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, AND FEW ARE THOSE WHO FIND IT."...
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
|
Dr. F wrote-
"Your thoughts in your head don't count in the real world, if they contradict reality." Playing the devil's advocate, some might say they would "count" even if they contradicted reality. -If they helped the person to get on with the practice of living.
Hence the crux or pickle: (a) In the pursuit of truth versus (b) in the pursuit of "better practices" in the practice of living.
What's your pleasure?
|
|
go-B
climber
In God We Trust
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
|
Psalm 12
To the Chief Musician. On an eight-stringed harp. A Psalm of David.
1 Help, LORD, for the godly man ceases!
For the faithful disappear from among the sons of men.
2 They speak idly everyone with his neighbor;
With flattering lips and a double heart they speak.
3 May the LORD cut off all flattering lips,
And the tongue that speaks proud things,
4 Who have said,
“With our tongue we will prevail;
Our lips are our own;
Who is lord over us?”
5 “For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy,
Now I will arise,” says the LORD;
“I will set him in the safety for which he yearns.”
6 The words of the LORD are pure words,
Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
Purified seven times.
7 You shall keep them, O LORD,
You shall preserve them from this generation forever.
8 The wicked prowl on every side,
When vileness is exalted among the sons of men.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
|
some might say they would "count" even if they contradicted reality
You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.
|
|
dfrost7
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
|
Where did HowweirdDean go? He was usually good for this conversation.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
|
For those of you who love to cite the "Holy Book. "Take your only son- yes, Isaac, whom you love so much- and go to the land of Moriah, sacrifice him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will point out to you." That's for you mom and dads out there.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
|
It's disingenuous for people to constantly cite bible passages that only suit their purpose, talk about taking things out of context. For those who would like to see the other side, google "evil bible." Sure it's also taking things out of context but from a different perspective.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
|
Dr F. wrote: "Your thoughts in your head don't count in the real world, if they contradict reality."
The entire field of psychology and much of philosophy would beg to differ with you on that one, Craig. People's heads are totally filled with all kinds of crazy and nagative or self-defeating thoughts and beliefs. In fact changing one's attitudes (though not strictly a cognitive procedure) can have spectacular results - good and bad - on one's real life.
BTW, Craig made the FFA of this route (w/ me and Mo). Who can name it:
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:16pm PT
|
About five years ago the Billy Graham Assoc. published the results of an ongoing poll that was initiated in the first quarter of the last century @1925, that came up with this statistic(among others): Among children raised in the church from youth, 90% never return to church after the age of 18!
That 1925 statistic, if valid, seem startling to me in light of recent statistics presented by the Pew Research Center that only 16.1 percent in the U.S. claim no religious affiliation and just 1.6 million Americans claim to be atheist or agnostic.
Religious demographer, Eric Kaufmann, predicts the “no religious affiliation”group should top out at about 17 percent between the years 2030 to 2040, claiming “Nones” may be their own worst enemy because they have low fertility rates and thus trend older. The Non-Religious Identification Survey (NRIS) by the Center for Inquiry seemed to suggest the same conclusion according to Luke Galen, an associate professor at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids, Mich., wrting in CFI's magazine, Free Inquiry.August/Sept 2009.
http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/Profiles_of_the_Godless_FI_AugSept_Vol_29_No_5_pps_41-45.pdf
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
|
BEHOLD, for THIS is the WORD of God.
If it says it in the bible, then GOD said it.
Natural Disasters are God's Wrath
The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
|
More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
|
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property".
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
|
Jennie!
Perhaps I was not very clear in regards to the "poll"!
The poll was ongoing since 1925(yearly)!
I do not recall if it was of all Christian denominations(I believe so)or just Fundimentalist/Evangelical(possibly).
But the results were disturbing at best, as I stated above.
And that was that 90% did not return to church after the age of 18!
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
|
TripL7, some would say "encouraging" rather than "disturbing."
|
|
TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
|
No doubt they would, I would expect as much. The point being made is that a false premise is being pushed here in regards that we "grew up" with this ingrained in us therefore we believe, yada yada, blah blah blah!
Not so, donini!
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:48am PT
|
Gotta love all this great family values stuff, from the pentateuch/old testament particularly. Murder, mayhem, rape, ethnic cleansing - you name it. No wonder followers of those cults find it fascinating. More than anything you'd get on reality TV.
Surely it's time we had a discussion of solipsism. I can't believe I'm so creative as to imagine all of you, but there you are.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 01:29am PT
|
I should have thought of this earlier, just let Largo and jstan write my stuff for me... genius!
Alas, I am back after spending too much time tracking down info on the WSJ editorial.
What do I believe? Well, contrary to the representations of my colleagues here, I do believe there are things we don't know and can't describe.
John's "nothing" the great unknown, the vast sea of whatever laying out there... perhaps, but the funny thing about a thing that isn't a thing is you can't say much about it. You are not even sure you experience it because you are not sure what it is...
It is often said that there is an infinite amount of the unknown out there, it is a funny statement because we don't know precisely anything about the unknown, by construction. It could be vast, it could also be small... maybe we're about to know everything there is to know about both the known and the unknown, how could you tell?
I have been a scientist for a long time, but I have not neglected to learn about spiritualism and mysticism and religion... there is the assumption by those who practice in those areas that because I reject them I could not have studied them correctly, or deeply, or genuinely. It is possible that I have done all that, and I just can't find the answers I'm interested in along those particular lines... perhaps it works for others... but I am only slightly offended by the presumption that I failed to correctly learn those disciplines. I say slightly offended because I feel the same way about people talking as if they know something about science who I believe never really studied it to understanding.
So, where are we? "Nothing" it is a trivial thing, really, if you say it is everything that is not a "thing." It is an idea with not much intellectual depth because by its very definition we cannot know about it, and so it represents all that is unknown (the amount of which is also not known) as well as all the things that we know are not things, but can be described...
...however, because these things are apart of the unknown, we can't know them...
I ask, not being a wise ass, SO WHAT? Does studying "Nothing" lead to any greater knowledge and/or understanding? How could it?
Newton famously wrote:
"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
But he used the word (at least as quoted in this history) "undiscovered." And so it is not a "great ocean of truth" that "lay unknowable before me."
It is not nothing... though it is not yet known.
Knowledge expands into the domain of the unknowable... there is a universe hiding in the clumsiness of our exquisite measuring devices, hiding in the random noise of our detectors... beyond our current ability to extend our perception that much farther.
Is that nothing?
The quantum nature of the universe forces us to a probabilistic view, and the quanta break up the familiar continuity of everything, energy, momentum, space, time... what lies in between the quanta?
Is that nothing?
Believe or not, thinking about how to do science, at least for a little bit, helps you decide how you might go about solving a particular problem in science... so perhaps we could think of a way to use "nothing" to help. I've thought about it, long before this STForum was even possible... the fact that I'm proceeding along what John has called an demonstrated intellectual dead end guaranteed to make no progress is by choice.
If John can make progress understanding the universe through "nothing," more power to him... I'll take the "thing." My suspicion is we're interested in completely different questions...
|
|
Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 03:01am PT
|
Hey Ed, welcome back.
Just a thought...why won't some, including you I'm assuming, put a concerted effort into studying the Bible with all diligence? It could even be done in private so as to not to affect what others might think of another. Why not, what does one have to lose?
..."We in NASA were often asked what the real reason was for the amazing string of successes we had with our Apollo flights to the Moon. I think the only honest answer we could give was that we tried to never overlook anything." - Wernher Von Braun
|
|
Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 03:11am PT
|
Wernher Von Braun,
"Many men who are intelligent and of good faith say they cannot visualize a Designer. Well, can a physicist visualize an electron? The electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects that we use it to illuminate our cities, guide our airlines through the night skies and take the most accurate measurements. What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electrons as real while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer on the ground that they cannot conceive Him? I am afraid that, although they really do not understand the electron either, they are ready to accept it because they managed to produce a rather clumsy mechanical model of it borrowed from rather limited experience in other fields, but they would not know how to begin building a model of God."
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!