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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 22, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
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Disclaimer: This is an unauthorized application for the Cinch. Trango has not tested the Cinch for this use, and specifically discourages the practice of self-belaying with their device. Although this is how I go about Cinching, this post is for informational purposes only. I am not recommending that anyone use this system, as they could be seriously injured or killed if the device fails.
For top-rope soloing I have been using a 2014 Trango Cinch oriented with its brake-release lever on my right-hand side. This specific orientation, and keeping the device in an upright position, is the key to it being self-tending. I hang just a little weight on the free end of the rope, a 9.5mm semi-static.
For redundancy, I trail a Petzl Microcender attached to a 9.4mm dynamic backup rope that's also weighted. The Microcender is trailed from a 12-15" nylon sling. Girth-hitching the sling at both ends eliminates the possibility of carabiner cross-loading. The Microcender needs to be removed from the rope before descending.
An oval auto-locking carabiner attaches the Cinch to my belay loop, as well as to an improvised chest harness made from nylon webbing. The chest harness keeps the Cinch in an upright position, and by decreasing slack in the system, it significantly reduces the dynamic loading of the device in a fall.
I am happy to report that the Cinch has caught me every time, but all my falls have been pretty much vertical. No pitching away from the rock face, no falling from overhangs, no inverted falls, so far. I'm testing the system cautiously.
I am hoping that other climbers who use the Cinch will share their experiences concerning its safety and reliability in this particular application. Please address any issues with the current model of the Trango Cinch when specifically used as a self-belay device as described above.
This is not the right thread in which to bring up concerns about standard belaying or rappelling with the Cinch. I also beg you to spare me (and the other readers) from your opinions about and experiences with TR-soloing using Traxions, Shunts, Soloists, Ushbas, Grigris, etc.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 22, 2015 - 02:55pm PT
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Thank you I am gonna look for a Rope gun but as that has so far led to conflict I am always kinda looking for a better Mouse Trapp
I do the same thing with a 1st gen GriGri. that has a blown spring, on the Handle. I also some times double up the system by adding a Wallhauler Up at the top and then send the rope from me to the 'Pulley'/clamp and back to me.
(in this Mode I only go up it works for short very steep & overhangs)
This years, injury tally has raised fear in me. Not a good thing it's not that i'm a-quakein' in my lone boots I like the solitude, but The safety in #s or at least One COMPETENT partner is the best way to climb IMO.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
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Do you mean fixed-rope soloing?
Any modifications, like on the Gri-Gri?
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
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Mickster said: "I am hoping that other climbers who use the Cinch will share their experiences concerning its safety and reliability in this particular application. Please address any issues with the current model of the Trango Cinch when specifically used as a self-belay device as described above.
This is not the right thread in which to bring up concerns about standard belaying or rappelling with the Cinch. I also beg you to spare me (and the other readers) from your opinions about and experiences with TR-soloing using Traxions, Shunts, Soloists, Ushbas, Grigris, etc."
Trango was adamant NOT to use the Cinch for TR soloing. I have never tried it, nor have I ever heard of anyone else except for one other (who was happy with it), doing so. Especially given how many other choices there are. Ones we are not suppose to discuss of course, per your request.
As a related aside, it doesn't look like you have done very much of it either as your gear looks right out of the box new.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
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ALLCAPS MAKE THIS THREAD CRITICAL!!!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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Any system that requires a second rope as a backup isn't worth the time.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
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Having done many thousands of feet top rope soloing over the years it's so hilarious to read these insane posts here on the use of weird inefficient gear by people.
Using a device that fails and requires backup is insane also, lol.
What are you people actually doing out there?
Supertopo is insane ......
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
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he's rad?
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2015 - 09:43pm PT
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Responding to the posts so far:
I believe that self-belaying with a rope fixed to a top anchor is commonly referred to as top-rope soloing.
The Cinch design was improved around 2008. No mods are necessary.
As is obvious from my unbattered 2014 Cinch, I'm early into my cautious testing.
Moose, are you using a Cinch above, and Micro Traxion below, on a single rope?
I would like to know the circumstances in which the Cinch didn't engage and the Traxion caught your fall. What was your rope's condition and diameter? How was the Cinch oriented? This is the sort of information I'm looking for.
Sorry about the all-caps title. My mistake. Is there a way to fix that?
If using a Cinch for self-belay is really all that dangerous, perhaps this thread should, after all, be designated as critical. Werner seems to think that using a Cinch is insane, even though his beloved Soloist is no longer sold because of safety (product liability) issues.
Robert, I haven't seen where Trango has tested the Cinch for top-rope soloing and assessed its unsuitability. According to Chris McNamara, who sent a query to Trango about using the Cinch for self-bely after testing it against a Mini Traxion and liking it better, the company's reply was, "We can not, under any circumstances, recommend the Cinch for soloing, either TR or lead. We've done an enormous amount of testing on it, all to get it dialed for belaying and lowering rock climbers. We haven't spent one second testing it for soloing."
The clove-hitch method works for lead soloing, but I'd really hate to use it for top-rope soloing.
DMT, the use of two ropes and two different devices is what's suggested by Petzl:
http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/General-principles-for-solo-climbing-with-a-fixed-belay-rope
Every mechanical device used for self-belay seems to have some risk for malfunctioning; none are 100% reliable. Check out these examples of possible malfunctions during self-belayed solo climbing with a fixed rope:
http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Appendix-1--Petzl-does-not-recommend-using-only-one-ascender-for-self-belaying-
Thank you all for your feedback. I didn't mean to offend the Traxioning faithful by asking them not to proselytize here. It's just that there is already enough Traxion scripture scattered throughout these ST forums. Rest assured, I'm not trying to establish Cinching as a replacement for the reigning faith. I'm just exploring a "different strokes for different folks" alternative, and trying to gather relevant data on the safety and efficacy of the Cinch when used for self-belay.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:26pm PT
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I don't have any love for the soloist (the OP made that up and now you too) and have only used it a few times many years ago and even then had no love for it.
If the cinch fails on people and they use it as their main belay device for top rope belay and they need backup because of that they're insane ..
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:34pm PT
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Mickster - you seem to have a penchant for complexity, overthinking things and a bit of an unwillingness to listen and learn from folks with far more experience in the matter. Self-reliance and forming your own opinions are great, but in this matter your responses pretty much keep belying the fact you're not really talking from a strong base of experience.
All great if this mucking around with gear is some sort of hobby, otherwise consider listening to what people are attempting to tell you.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:58pm PT
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I use a microcender for top rope soloing with plenty of weight on the rope at the bottom to avoid slack buildup. No backup.
I'm gonna die.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Mar 23, 2015 - 03:49am PT
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The second rope for backup is essential for my TR-solo setup.
The most positive way to use a second rope backup is to tie loops and clip in as you ascend.
Tying the loops while ascending is about as difficult as placing gear, so it seems to be a good simulation of the motions.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 23, 2015 - 05:40am PT
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Bill M said: "The most positive way to use a second rope backup is to tie loops and clip in as you ascend."
Ding ding ding! Winner. BTW, great backup and use of this alone, knots in a rope, may the best single system to use IMO. Make sure the rope isn't over a sharp edge and pad it if it is. 3 locking biners for 3 knots, dropping the 3rd and clipping as you ascend - good to go.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Mar 23, 2015 - 07:17am PT
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But it would perhaps turn-out to be hell for you if ya recommend that approach to someone who suffers a catastrophic failure using your system.
Please quit assuming that I'd ever do that.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 23, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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Do they recommend two full sized ropes for leading, too?
DMT No, but they probably recommend an active belayer who is able to competently use a belay device without distraction. When soloing there is no such person available. It is all up to you and you are busy climbing. I see nothing wrong with an added level of security provided by a backup system, even if that includes a second strand of rope. Of course it is up to you how far you go with that backup, but I don't know why you'd ever fault someone else for doing so.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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This is great. Thanks, everyone.
Werner, sorry if I incorrectly attributed to you a fondness for the Soloist. I do recall you saying that you used one for the 5.11 sections of Astroman, when you weren't free-soloing the rest of it. Which, by the way, I think is insane.
Robert, your input has been interesting. You obviously dislike the Cinch, but is that based upon your personal experience with it? If so, then under what circumstances did it fail to meet your expectations?
An independent test report by Beverly & Attaway on the strength of belay devices can be seen at:
http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/51/Hang_Em_High_Final.pdf
In dynamic strength-testing with a stopper knot below the device, Cinch failures occurred with forces >8kN. Of course, the test had little relevance to belaying or rappelling, but it did set in motion a lot of negative posts about the Cinch being unsuitable for self-belay. It is interesting to note that the report mentions 12kN as the maximum force the human body can survive, according to studies done by the military. OSHA stipulates 8kN as the maximum allowable arresting force on a falling employee.
In response to the Beverly & Attaway tests, Malcolm Daly wrote:
"It's my understanding from Marc Beverly that the only time that the Cinch failed under a regular FF2 fall (no stopper knot) was in his initial tests in the gym. In these tests he used himself as the test weight (Really!), used gym ropes of uncertain history, and a borrowed pre-production Cinch that was improved before it ever hit the market. While these tests were alarming, the fact that they are unrepeatable and used prototype equipment and ropes of unknown history only is useful insofar as it indicates the need for further testing. This additional testing was what initiated the re-design to a stronger body to meet the TUV's 10kN specification, and the warning to not use a backup knot. I know of no incident anywhere, anytime, of a Cinch failing or breaking when subjected to a standardized UIAA/CE FF2 fall. If I did, the Cinch wouldn't be on the market.
When we submitted the device to the CE for certification the lab manager suggested that the strength of the Cinch be increased to the point where a knot dragged into the device wouldn't cause a failure below 10 kN. We did so, and all of the Cinches with the CE mark will pass that test. Regardless, we do not recommend the use of stopper knots for any reason. The Cinch is designed, evaluated and tested for recreational belaying, lowering and rappelling only. Additionally, it is certified for use only with dynamic ropes."
So, there you have it. Pretty good CYA from Trango. Petzl comes right out and says, "Self-belaying with the Grigri is prohibited." Those warnings and prohibitions don't seem to stop some people from assuming the risk, judging from forum posts. Inventive people like to repurpose devices and explore their off-label applications. Who pioneered the use of a Traxion hauling pulley as a self-belay device, anyway? What kind of flak did they get from their fellow climbers (most likely the Shunting acolytes) for their heresy?
Since I weigh about 73kg with gear, and I've eliminated almost all the slack in my system, I don't think I'd get anywhere close to device (or body) failure forces in a fall. What remains uncertain is the Cinch's ability to reliably arrest falls with different rope diameters and body positions. With a fairly new 9.5mm that self-feeds very smoothly, I have not yet experienced any slippage when the device engages on vertical falls. I probably should report back here after surviving hundreds of falls.
At this point, I am not concerned about upside-down falls from overhangs. The chest harness securely attached to my belay loop does seem to prevent me from tipping over backwards when I fall away from the face. Of course, anything is possible! The suggestion to avoid using another mechanical device for a backup and instead clip into a series of loops on a second (dynamic) rope seems bomber, but Petzl says it has poor ergonomics and a high risk of error. Are they just trying to sell more Microcenders? Try it out, and you decide.
I've linked to a video of a solo climber using two fixed ropes, each of them weighted on their free end. A Trango Cinch is on the primary rope, and a Goblin is attached to the backup rope. The Goblin is an industrial fall-arrest device made by CAMP Safety in Italy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku1_y6zHEIU
The video demonstrates a self-tending system for top-rope soloing that would likely reduce the risk from inverted and horizontal falls. Because of the tether between harness and Goblin, the climber needs to be high enough above obstacles for the device to safely arrest a fall. I'd still want to use some sort of chest harness with the Cinch, keeping it closer to my sternum so it could catch me a little faster in a fall and produce less of a drop and impact when it catches. Of interest is that the Goblin creates an arresting force of less than 6kN. It is certified for use with semi-static ropes, does not require a shock-absorbing lanyard, and can handle loads up to 200kg.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:00am PT
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The Hover Drone-Partner will solve all the complicated rope based safety scenarios.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:55am PT
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RobertL: It [Soloist] has the same problems as the Gri Gri and Cinch in that it won't work in the event of an upside down fall when leading.
It also won't necessarily hold a fall where you merely go horizontal as opposed to fully inverted. Took a highly-experience partner several broken ribs, an elbow and a solid head bang to learn this so folks should take heed.
Mickster: This is great. Thanks, everyone.
Except you're still not listening and largely missing point after point.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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I do recall you saying that you used one for the 5.11 sections of Astroman, when you weren't free-soloing the rest of it.
Which, by the way, I think is insane.
Yes it's true. it's insane.
I also never tied into the end of the rope and just plain left it hanging in free space on purpose.
The point is: NEVER do as I do.
And never imitate ......
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