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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 22, 2015 - 01:24pm PT
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Disclaimer: This is an unauthorized application for the Cinch. Trango has not tested the Cinch for this use, and specifically discourages the practice of self-belaying with their device. Although this is how I go about Cinching, this post is for informational purposes only. I am not recommending that anyone use this system, as they could be seriously injured or killed if the device fails.
For top-rope soloing I have been using a 2014 Trango Cinch oriented with its brake-release lever on my right-hand side. This specific orientation, and keeping the device in an upright position, is the key to it being self-tending. I hang just a little weight on the free end of the rope, a 9.5mm semi-static.
For redundancy, I trail a Petzl Microcender attached to a 9.4mm dynamic backup rope that's also weighted. The Microcender is trailed from a 12-15" nylon sling. Girth-hitching the sling at both ends eliminates the possibility of carabiner cross-loading. The Microcender needs to be removed from the rope before descending.
An oval auto-locking carabiner attaches the Cinch to my belay loop, as well as to an improvised chest harness made from nylon webbing. The chest harness keeps the Cinch in an upright position, and by decreasing slack in the system, it significantly reduces the dynamic loading of the device in a fall.
I am happy to report that the Cinch has caught me every time, but all my falls have been pretty much vertical. No pitching away from the rock face, no falling from overhangs, no inverted falls, so far. I'm testing the system cautiously.
I am hoping that other climbers who use the Cinch will share their experiences concerning its safety and reliability in this particular application. Please address any issues with the current model of the Trango Cinch when specifically used as a self-belay device as described above.
This is not the right thread in which to bring up concerns about standard belaying or rappelling with the Cinch. I also beg you to spare me (and the other readers) from your opinions about and experiences with TR-soloing using Traxions, Shunts, Soloists, Ushbas, Grigris, etc.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Mar 22, 2015 - 02:55pm PT
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Thank you I am gonna look for a Rope gun but as that has so far led to conflict I am always kinda looking for a better Mouse Trapp
I do the same thing with a 1st gen GriGri. that has a blown spring, on the Handle. I also some times double up the system by adding a Wallhauler Up at the top and then send the rope from me to the 'Pulley'/clamp and back to me.
(in this Mode I only go up it works for short very steep & overhangs)
This years, injury tally has raised fear in me. Not a good thing it's not that i'm a-quakein' in my lone boots I like the solitude, but The safety in #s or at least One COMPETENT partner is the best way to climb IMO.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 05:00pm PT
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Do you mean fixed-rope soloing?
Any modifications, like on the Gri-Gri?
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 05:45pm PT
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Mickster said: "I am hoping that other climbers who use the Cinch will share their experiences concerning its safety and reliability in this particular application. Please address any issues with the current model of the Trango Cinch when specifically used as a self-belay device as described above.
This is not the right thread in which to bring up concerns about standard belaying or rappelling with the Cinch. I also beg you to spare me (and the other readers) from your opinions about and experiences with TR-soloing using Traxions, Shunts, Soloists, Ushbas, Grigris, etc."
Trango was adamant NOT to use the Cinch for TR soloing. I have never tried it, nor have I ever heard of anyone else except for one other (who was happy with it), doing so. Especially given how many other choices there are. Ones we are not suppose to discuss of course, per your request.
As a related aside, it doesn't look like you have done very much of it either as your gear looks right out of the box new.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
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ALLCAPS MAKE THIS THREAD CRITICAL!!!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Mar 22, 2015 - 06:18pm PT
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Any system that requires a second rope as a backup isn't worth the time.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:13pm PT
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Having done many thousands of feet top rope soloing over the years it's so hilarious to read these insane posts here on the use of weird inefficient gear by people.
Using a device that fails and requires backup is insane also, lol.
What are you people actually doing out there?
Supertopo is insane ......
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pb
Sport climber
Sonora Ca
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Mar 22, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
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he's rad?
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 22, 2015 - 09:43pm PT
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Responding to the posts so far:
I believe that self-belaying with a rope fixed to a top anchor is commonly referred to as top-rope soloing.
The Cinch design was improved around 2008. No mods are necessary.
As is obvious from my unbattered 2014 Cinch, I'm early into my cautious testing.
Moose, are you using a Cinch above, and Micro Traxion below, on a single rope?
I would like to know the circumstances in which the Cinch didn't engage and the Traxion caught your fall. What was your rope's condition and diameter? How was the Cinch oriented? This is the sort of information I'm looking for.
Sorry about the all-caps title. My mistake. Is there a way to fix that?
If using a Cinch for self-belay is really all that dangerous, perhaps this thread should, after all, be designated as critical. Werner seems to think that using a Cinch is insane, even though his beloved Soloist is no longer sold because of safety (product liability) issues.
Robert, I haven't seen where Trango has tested the Cinch for top-rope soloing and assessed its unsuitability. According to Chris McNamara, who sent a query to Trango about using the Cinch for self-bely after testing it against a Mini Traxion and liking it better, the company's reply was, "We can not, under any circumstances, recommend the Cinch for soloing, either TR or lead. We've done an enormous amount of testing on it, all to get it dialed for belaying and lowering rock climbers. We haven't spent one second testing it for soloing."
The clove-hitch method works for lead soloing, but I'd really hate to use it for top-rope soloing.
DMT, the use of two ropes and two different devices is what's suggested by Petzl:
http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/General-principles-for-solo-climbing-with-a-fixed-belay-rope
Every mechanical device used for self-belay seems to have some risk for malfunctioning; none are 100% reliable. Check out these examples of possible malfunctions during self-belayed solo climbing with a fixed rope:
http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Appendix-1--Petzl-does-not-recommend-using-only-one-ascender-for-self-belaying-
Thank you all for your feedback. I didn't mean to offend the Traxioning faithful by asking them not to proselytize here. It's just that there is already enough Traxion scripture scattered throughout these ST forums. Rest assured, I'm not trying to establish Cinching as a replacement for the reigning faith. I'm just exploring a "different strokes for different folks" alternative, and trying to gather relevant data on the safety and efficacy of the Cinch when used for self-belay.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:26pm PT
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I don't have any love for the soloist (the OP made that up and now you too) and have only used it a few times many years ago and even then had no love for it.
If the cinch fails on people and they use it as their main belay device for top rope belay and they need backup because of that they're insane ..
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:34pm PT
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Mickster - you seem to have a penchant for complexity, overthinking things and a bit of an unwillingness to listen and learn from folks with far more experience in the matter. Self-reliance and forming your own opinions are great, but in this matter your responses pretty much keep belying the fact you're not really talking from a strong base of experience.
All great if this mucking around with gear is some sort of hobby, otherwise consider listening to what people are attempting to tell you.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Mar 22, 2015 - 10:58pm PT
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I use a microcender for top rope soloing with plenty of weight on the rope at the bottom to avoid slack buildup. No backup.
I'm gonna die.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Mar 23, 2015 - 03:49am PT
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The second rope for backup is essential for my TR-solo setup.
The most positive way to use a second rope backup is to tie loops and clip in as you ascend.
Tying the loops while ascending is about as difficult as placing gear, so it seems to be a good simulation of the motions.
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 23, 2015 - 05:40am PT
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Bill M said: "The most positive way to use a second rope backup is to tie loops and clip in as you ascend."
Ding ding ding! Winner. BTW, great backup and use of this alone, knots in a rope, may the best single system to use IMO. Make sure the rope isn't over a sharp edge and pad it if it is. 3 locking biners for 3 knots, dropping the 3rd and clipping as you ascend - good to go.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Mar 23, 2015 - 07:17am PT
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But it would perhaps turn-out to be hell for you if ya recommend that approach to someone who suffers a catastrophic failure using your system.
Please quit assuming that I'd ever do that.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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Mar 23, 2015 - 08:51am PT
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Do they recommend two full sized ropes for leading, too?
DMT No, but they probably recommend an active belayer who is able to competently use a belay device without distraction. When soloing there is no such person available. It is all up to you and you are busy climbing. I see nothing wrong with an added level of security provided by a backup system, even if that includes a second strand of rope. Of course it is up to you how far you go with that backup, but I don't know why you'd ever fault someone else for doing so.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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This is great. Thanks, everyone.
Werner, sorry if I incorrectly attributed to you a fondness for the Soloist. I do recall you saying that you used one for the 5.11 sections of Astroman, when you weren't free-soloing the rest of it. Which, by the way, I think is insane.
Robert, your input has been interesting. You obviously dislike the Cinch, but is that based upon your personal experience with it? If so, then under what circumstances did it fail to meet your expectations?
An independent test report by Beverly & Attaway on the strength of belay devices can be seen at:
http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/51/Hang_Em_High_Final.pdf
In dynamic strength-testing with a stopper knot below the device, Cinch failures occurred with forces >8kN. Of course, the test had little relevance to belaying or rappelling, but it did set in motion a lot of negative posts about the Cinch being unsuitable for self-belay. It is interesting to note that the report mentions 12kN as the maximum force the human body can survive, according to studies done by the military. OSHA stipulates 8kN as the maximum allowable arresting force on a falling employee.
In response to the Beverly & Attaway tests, Malcolm Daly wrote:
"It's my understanding from Marc Beverly that the only time that the Cinch failed under a regular FF2 fall (no stopper knot) was in his initial tests in the gym. In these tests he used himself as the test weight (Really!), used gym ropes of uncertain history, and a borrowed pre-production Cinch that was improved before it ever hit the market. While these tests were alarming, the fact that they are unrepeatable and used prototype equipment and ropes of unknown history only is useful insofar as it indicates the need for further testing. This additional testing was what initiated the re-design to a stronger body to meet the TUV's 10kN specification, and the warning to not use a backup knot. I know of no incident anywhere, anytime, of a Cinch failing or breaking when subjected to a standardized UIAA/CE FF2 fall. If I did, the Cinch wouldn't be on the market.
When we submitted the device to the CE for certification the lab manager suggested that the strength of the Cinch be increased to the point where a knot dragged into the device wouldn't cause a failure below 10 kN. We did so, and all of the Cinches with the CE mark will pass that test. Regardless, we do not recommend the use of stopper knots for any reason. The Cinch is designed, evaluated and tested for recreational belaying, lowering and rappelling only. Additionally, it is certified for use only with dynamic ropes."
So, there you have it. Pretty good CYA from Trango. Petzl comes right out and says, "Self-belaying with the Grigri is prohibited." Those warnings and prohibitions don't seem to stop some people from assuming the risk, judging from forum posts. Inventive people like to repurpose devices and explore their off-label applications. Who pioneered the use of a Traxion hauling pulley as a self-belay device, anyway? What kind of flak did they get from their fellow climbers (most likely the Shunting acolytes) for their heresy?
Since I weigh about 73kg with gear, and I've eliminated almost all the slack in my system, I don't think I'd get anywhere close to device (or body) failure forces in a fall. What remains uncertain is the Cinch's ability to reliably arrest falls with different rope diameters and body positions. With a fairly new 9.5mm that self-feeds very smoothly, I have not yet experienced any slippage when the device engages on vertical falls. I probably should report back here after surviving hundreds of falls.
At this point, I am not concerned about upside-down falls from overhangs. The chest harness securely attached to my belay loop does seem to prevent me from tipping over backwards when I fall away from the face. Of course, anything is possible! The suggestion to avoid using another mechanical device for a backup and instead clip into a series of loops on a second (dynamic) rope seems bomber, but Petzl says it has poor ergonomics and a high risk of error. Are they just trying to sell more Microcenders? Try it out, and you decide.
I've linked to a video of a solo climber using two fixed ropes, each of them weighted on their free end. A Trango Cinch is on the primary rope, and a Goblin is attached to the backup rope. The Goblin is an industrial fall-arrest device made by CAMP Safety in Italy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku1_y6zHEIU
The video demonstrates a self-tending system for top-rope soloing that would likely reduce the risk from inverted and horizontal falls. Because of the tether between harness and Goblin, the climber needs to be high enough above obstacles for the device to safely arrest a fall. I'd still want to use some sort of chest harness with the Cinch, keeping it closer to my sternum so it could catch me a little faster in a fall and produce less of a drop and impact when it catches. Of interest is that the Goblin creates an arresting force of less than 6kN. It is certified for use with semi-static ropes, does not require a shock-absorbing lanyard, and can handle loads up to 200kg.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:00am PT
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The Hover Drone-Partner will solve all the complicated rope based safety scenarios.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:55am PT
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RobertL: It [Soloist] has the same problems as the Gri Gri and Cinch in that it won't work in the event of an upside down fall when leading.
It also won't necessarily hold a fall where you merely go horizontal as opposed to fully inverted. Took a highly-experience partner several broken ribs, an elbow and a solid head bang to learn this so folks should take heed.
Mickster: This is great. Thanks, everyone.
Except you're still not listening and largely missing point after point.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 23, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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I do recall you saying that you used one for the 5.11 sections of Astroman, when you weren't free-soloing the rest of it.
Which, by the way, I think is insane.
Yes it's true. it's insane.
I also never tied into the end of the rope and just plain left it hanging in free space on purpose.
The point is: NEVER do as I do.
And never imitate ......
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son of stan
Boulder climber
San Jose CA
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Mar 23, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
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Seeing is believing and I have not seen this in action or video.
Snugging that chest harness down like a training bra outrages my manly
sensitivities somehow. Is it a gender neutral rig? Insist that the OP post a image of his gf-wife wearing it.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2015 - 12:41pm PT
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Except you're still not listening and largely missing point after point.
OK, healyje, I'll get a Hover-Drone Partner, make my chest harness unisex, and never imitate Werner. Notice that I am listening, and responding, to point after point.
As I recall, your ex-partner was using a Soloist, not a Cinch, when he had that backward-leaning, horizontal fall.
Your whole point seems intended to just shut me up. Spoilsport!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 23, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
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Mickster: Your whole point seems intended to just shut me up. Spoilsport!
On the contrary, it's what's turning out to be a vain attempt to get you to listen, but it appears you aren't interested in that.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 23, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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healyje, if you would kindly state the "suggestions" that you want me to hear, instead of accusing me of not listening, I'd be more receptive to your comments. I've read your post about roped solo free climbing where you allow that the Cinch may be OK for TR solo:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Training_and_Technique/Roped_Solo_Free_Climbing_-_The_essence_of_self-reliance_one_path_among_many_675.html
While many of the posters prefer their own self-belay method and obviously don't agree with what I've presented here, I hope that this "controversy" will stimulate people's thinking, and that some readers will be able to benefit from this discussion. There is much more that can be said about risk reduction, product safety and liability issues, and the value of experimentation, but I'll leave those topics for others to discuss.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jun 26, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
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Eric- that's just plain rope soloing. No top involved right? Anchor at the bottom?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Jun 26, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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I am an idiot, and deleted my stupid posts.
I can only hope my community forgives me for my transgressions.
The wife is much smarter than me.
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Andy KP
climber
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Hi
I did do quite a bit of talking to people over the years and the Silent partner does work like a seat belt in that it works on a inertia-reel (maybe I'm wrong), that allows the drum to run but locks down when a sharp force is applied. Happy to admit I'm wrong if that's not correct, but when teaching people about the device that's the best way to describe how it works.
Cheers
Andy
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overwatch
climber
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Yes I would be interested in how it does work rather than how it doesn't work.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
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Yes, I'm still alive and well. Thanks for asking, Dingus. Haven't been doing much TR soloing since finding a reliable belay partner, but I did make some upgrades to my system, such as a BD chest harness and a DMM Belay Master 2 carabiner to hold everything together. As a backup, I've been using a very dynamic rope with a series of loops, and two short tethers for clipping in with Edelrid HMS Strike Slider FG auto-locking carabiners.
This is strictly my own exploration that I am sharing here, and I do not advise anyone to try this.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Kinda looks like something from my other homepage site, BDSMfetish.net
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Yeah I'll stick with two minis thank you. Although if I had disposable income I would probably switch to micros purely because of weight saving
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couchmaster
climber
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The BD chest harness looks perfect. Thanks for sharing that. I've been using a Misty Mountain big wall gear sling and it's sloppy. BTW, I don't use a Cinch. However, you asked us not to talk about what we we have found which works better than a Cinch on your first post, so I will continue to respect those wishes as have many others. Quote first post: "I also beg you to spare me (and the other readers) from your opinions about and experiences with TR-soloing using Traxions, Shunts, Soloists, Ushbas, Grigris, etc." What I use is much better than a Cinch. So I'll spare you as you don't want to discuss that, per your request. Have fun with the Cinch. Glad you found a partner.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 4, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
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Couchmaster, thank you for keeping your chosen self-belay device a secret. The reason I requested that people refrain from talking about all the other devices that have been used is that I didn't want this thread to get hijacked, as so often happens.
However, I am curious as to why you think your method is better. Have you actually tried using a Cinch in the way I've described and run into problems that have not occurred with your chosen device? If you have tested the Cinch as a self-belay device, I am most eager to hear about your experiences with it.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Lead rope solo or Fixed Line TR solo, Gri Gri #1 unmodified works for me, every time! No back up needed. LOL just don't imitate me, I'm insane! You may get hurt. The Cinch I call the Pinch friggin hurts. Me no like.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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cool picture... how do you get rope to feed when you're free climbing? PDL type method?
OP how do you expect couchmaster to compare and contrast methods without talking about what he uses? You can't have it both ways
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Pull up slack on the dead side, hold in teeth, then pump the slack out on the live side as needed. Yes you are setting up for a big whipper, Don't Fall.
Falling
Always
looks
lame.
Shoulder strap/ chest harness is going to hinder your climbing ability.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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pretty fuggin smart dude thanks for the reply. What about top rope do you just pull the slack through? I used that method all the time before I got the two Mini. It definitely seems more like leading and if I'm going to fall with slack on a rope I want it to be a gri-gri
That said I will stick with a silent partner for leading
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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In general I do not like devices that contain sharp teeth.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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ooops breaking the thread rules and restrictions.
Thanks for the replies
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Roots
Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
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There were a few instances when the Cinch didn't engage
enough said...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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However, I am curious as to why you think your method is better.
Most any more xxx-like device.
Lead rope solo Gri Gri #1 unmodified
Yeah, did that for years before xxx came along - kinda sucked though.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 5, 2016 - 08:08pm PT
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Roots, you've quoted moosedrool, who never described or explained those instances, despite my inquiry. AFAIK, there is no device used for top-rope soloing that is 100% reliable, which is why most climbers want redundancy in their self-belay system.
As for my request that this discussion stay on-topic, there are plenty of other threads for people who need reassurance that their way is the right way to climb. I've never said, nor implied, that the Cinch is the best tool for the job. My intention here was to arouse the curiosity of those who can think outside the box, and stir up controversy among those who can't.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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I don't see how all the extra encumbrances is thinking outside the box but to each his own.
Seems like a lot of extra junk just to do some top roping. Controversy? please this is nothing this is Super Topo
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I've never said, nor implied, that the Cinch is the best tool for the job.
Well, you recognize that at the very least.
My intention here was to arouse the curiosity of those who can think outside the box...
If you were really 'thinking outside the box' I suspect you'd have moved on from the Cinch some time ago rather than locking onto it. Also, it would be good if 'the box' were a bit better parameterized.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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What was your secondary, xxxx or xxxxx?
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
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For me, thinking outside the box means exploring an application for the Cinch that Trango has not. The company specifically discourages the practice of self-belaying with it. My guess is that they have product liability concerns, rather than direct evidence of its unsuitability.
The fact remains that a small number of climbers have actually self-belayed with a Cinch, and lived to tell the tale. However, most of those intrepid explorers have not described their methods in detail. To satisfy my curiosity, I invited members of this forum to share their personal experiences with the Cinch in this specific application. I am disappointed that most of the responses have been efforts to dissuade me from using the Cinch, convert me to another device for self-belay, or are tangential to this topic.
As for specific parameters, this is what I would want from a primary self-belay device that's used for soloing on a fixed top-rope:
1) Self-tending, with only a minimal amount of weight on the free end of the rope, thereby eliminating most of the need to pull slack through the device while climbing.
2) Rapid change-over to descending/rappelling without having to unweight the primary device, remove it, and rig a separate device for lowering off.
3) Eliminate the need for extra equipment, such as a rappel device, descender, backup ascender, and foot-loop slings to escape the system mid-pitch or descend from the top anchor.
4) Low risk of causing rope damage when the primary device catches a fall.
5) Compatible with a secondary (back-up) system that will not interfere with the operation of the primary device, or vice-versa.
So far, the Trango Cinch has met all these requirements. If your personal experience with the Cinch as a self-belay device has been different, I'd really like to hear about it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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For me, thinking outside the box means exploring an application for the Cinch that Trango has not. The company specifically discourages the practice of self-belaying with it. My guess is that they have product liability concerns, rather than direct evidence of its unsuitability.
Trust me, Trango, and specifically Malcolm, more than thoroughly vetted the application of the Cinch for both TR and lead soloing and found it wanting and so have repeatedly (or in the case of Malcolm, personally) discouraged those applications of the device.
I have thousands of pitches of free lead rope soloing under my belt at this point and by extension thousands of pitches of TR soloing because I second all the pitches I lead. I evaluated the Cinch for myself and found it problematic and not as reliable in either application as I had hoped or require.
But I also preach that rope soloing is something people definitely have to come to terms with for themselves and sort out what works for them. So have at it, but it's not really an 'out of the box' sort of deal or a proposition that hasn't been thoroughly vetted by Trango as a company, Trango as individual climbers, or by other knowledgeable and experienced folks.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2016 - 08:48am PT
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healyje, thank you for sharing your conclusions from personally testing the Cinch as a TR-solo device. I also appreciate your "insider information" about the testing done at Trango, and by Malcolm personally, to see if the Cinch was suitable for TR-soloing. That certainly has put a damper on my desire to do further testing of the Cinch myself.
I do remain curious about the specific limitations that you, and Malcolm, discovered from the testing. I am also curious about how well your preferred device meets the parameters for TR-soloing that I set forth. Not wanting to be the cat who was curious and now dead, I am certainly open to better solutions for TR-soloing than the Cinch. However, I would like factual evidence to support any such proposals, as I am not inclined to simply take things on faith.
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