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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 13, 2006 - 10:43am PT
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Hi Kevin,
Welcome to ST land. I think that your excellent post on the Salathe slabs, John Hansen's Bolts on El Cap thread [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=251146&msg=252263#msg252263"]The Warbler[/url] and Mike's bolt removal is your first post.
Some of the best times I had climbing were with you and Geroge on Middle.
Best, Roger
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:50am PT
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Mr. Worral's long shot of Herr Alex Huber on the Salathe Headwall circa 1997(?) is one of the most breathtaking climbing photos I ever saw. Taken from over near Ribbon Falls or something, and I believe it took him all day (hike in, sunset photo, hike out all night) for one shot. Bravo!
Umm, Buzz, if you're gonna keep inviting people in here make sure some of them nail, okay? Otherwise it's a total double stannard.
(Thank you.)
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:54am PT
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Kevin Worrall??? NO way... where is he? Welcome to the TacoDome.
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hardman
Trad climber
love the eastern sierras
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:45am PT
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yo or anyone have a link to the pic?
blinny those are some mighty fine guitars!
welcome to supertaco Kevin
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:53pm PT
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Hi Kevin
Good to see you on here.
Cheers
Pat Nay
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Sep 13, 2006 - 06:14pm PT
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Kevin,
Nice to have to you around. Glad you could remember that day on the Salathe slabs so well. It was pretty cool free climbing to the terraces one afternoon without a care or a thought of the ramifications to come.
I’ll track you down.
Mike
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 13, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
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swami belt. small backpacker's stuff sack as a chalk bag. huge loop of slack in the rope. crisp, new e.b.'s. spring updraft lifting breezes up the face.
when my wife and i finally sacked up to do quicksilver, i'd had this photo stuck in my head for seven years. one of the more classic valley images ever, in my not-so-very-humble opinion.
welcome, indeed. if we see so far, it is because we stand on the shoulders of giants.
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Blitzo
Social climber
Earth
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Sep 13, 2006 - 11:17pm PT
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Wow, Kevin Worrall! I haven't seen him in twenty years!
Welcome!
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:23am PT
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Hey Kevin,
How do you like being a Dad? Heard you were up here recently from Sabina and Eddy. Sounds like you had fun on Hoffman. Sorry I missed you.
Ken Yager
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:27am PT
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On Quicksilver, the second pitch. WTF were you guys thinking back then. I could've died from that run out.
It didn't happen, and look where we ended up.
Here?
Bawhahahaha ..... oh man.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 14, 2006 - 12:45am PT
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Kauk told me to lead that pitch because it's the "easy one".
Sh#t .........
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 11:56am PT
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Jeeze, Kath, with all this talk about guitars what will come next: politics, conspiracy theories, pets, climbing ethics...?
Buzz
And what's wrong with plywood, other than it sounds dead? I had to keep my concert guitar at my parents home the whole time I climbed. It didn't like the great outdoors.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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I had a beater that I played in Camp 4. But I totaled a car I owned, collected the insurance, and purchased a fine, spruce topped guitar made by Mario Martello in about 1967, from the guitar shop in Berkeley. I think Mr. Martello lived in the Bay Area at the time.
You can hear that guitar all the way to the last row with a nice open sound I like for modern classical, with its precise overtone structures. You had to play carefully though, any sound you made--intentional or otherwise--was projected to the back of the hall.
I still have the guitar. It suffered a non-threatening crack in the rosewood back somewhere along the way. However, the string length is very long--close to 670mm and it is a bear to play--the fingers on my left hand are still a 1/4 inch longer than on my right. I have considered getting a 650mm with a mellower more forgiving sound.
Hard to climb hard and maintain guitar fingers.
Buzz
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 12:27am PT
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Remember jamming in the old wooden Camp4 bathrooms, Kevin.
The acoustics were awesome .......
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 01:08am PT
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What electrical cord, do you remember any electrical cord going to the site? Nah!
Hahahahaha .............
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2006 - 01:44am PT
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Hey Kevin, while you and Mike are around, I've wondered about this for years. When I first led the crux pitch of Space Babble, the belay at the top was a 1/4" bolt backed up by a No. 2 stopper with MG on it. Was Mike involved in putting that route together? My recollection was that it was you and Ron.
Greetings,
Steve
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2006 - 02:37am PT
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Hey Kevin, I did the third ascent leading all the pitches without chalk. It's still my favorite Valley free climb. I have an Ansel Adams photo of that part of Middle hanging where I see it everyday. Thanks for putting up such a masterpiece and encouraging me to get out on that wild piece of rock.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2006 - 01:39pm PT
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I have more pictures of you climbing, Kevin. I think that 1973 or so was the year that I scraped up enough cash to buy that little Rollie 35. I recorded Jim Pettigrew doing the entire first ascent of "Catchy" in which you can just make out a white shirt in various positions, moving up the rock. I was such a terrible photographer. (Still glad I have some of the those all shots, with our long hair, EBs, swamis, and nuts only racks.)
I have pictures of you leading "Ugly Duckling" on Swan Slab with my hand covering half the view to keep the sun off the lens. The sun would have been better. So would have a SLR camera.
That day that you and George were getting up the first pitch of "Ugly Duckling" I was walking by and just assumed that it was my turn next. I remember two things: the giant flapper I cut into my finger on the razor sharp, sloping hold just a few moves up, and the sense that it was your climb and you didn't want any help for anyone else, especially someone as 'old' as me--I was probably 24.
First time as a climber that I felt the passage of time and place.
Great times.
I will dig up more picture so you to show to your bride. You were the longest limbed, baby face in the Valley.
Best, Roger
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Sep 15, 2006 - 02:12pm PT
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Steve that’s funny. I did do Space Babble with Ron after he and Kevin did it. Great first pitch huh!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 15, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
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Indeed, indeed... To one of the Stonemasters who befriended me, Kevin you are a most welcome addition to the SuperTaco world, a most welcome addition.
I hope all is well with you dude.
Thanks Roger for pointing it out as I never saw that thread.
I have all the time in the world for Kevin. All the time.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 15, 2006 - 08:29pm PT
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More stories of your adventures would be much appreciated.
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Sep 15, 2006 - 09:05pm PT
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Hey there Kevin! What brings you to this neighborhood?
Just thought I would say hi. Sorry I missed you and everyone at Georges party a couple of weeks ago. I am currently building a climbing gym in Phoenix, and wasn't able to make it.
I hope you are enjoying being a daddy.
Best Regards
Tommy T
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 15, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
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Kevin,
That route is so good that I wouldn't worry about doing too much more that making sure the original number of protection points still remain. Those fixed pins on the first pitch would be my main concern because I don't think any other gear would be as solid or at least seem as solid. Whether to switch to bolts or somehow cement in beefy pins to preserve the original flavor is the dilemma. Space Babble is the crown jewel of Middle Rock and a true masterpiece. Little is visible from below in all of the rippling smoothness and just enough shows up to keep you from stalling. You just have to narrow your focus, forget about the fall, and flow upwards. Even when it showed up, I stopped putting in pro after a while because it broke the spell of pure movement. No other line on Middle requires the same kind of groove.
I remember doing Black Primo with you before getting up on SB and feeding on your enthusiasm. I also remember the chirp of disbelief that came out of Ron Kauk who was doing the traverse below when you yelled down that I wasn't carrying a chalk bag. It made my day since his recollection of the route, being not so tall, was surely one of desperation. Reach is a real help on those routes.
I also remember failing on the crux of Jigsaw in part because of the foil-thin Clevenger hanger (with nothing else anywhere nearby) got into my head.
I talked to Scott Burke about rebolting on Middle. It sounded like the routes were slowly getting equipped with stainless bolts by him and a few other hardcore face freaks. Don't sacrifice wildness for access or popularity, these lines are unique and should be preserved as the gems that they are. Plenty of bolts elsewhere.
Fond memories all, Steve
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Sep 16, 2006 - 08:52am PT
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Hi, Kevin. Long time!
Here’s a shot of you ice climbing. Even when the ice was good, winter in Camp 4 was a grim existence, despite the luxurious heated bathrooms.
One memory of your musical talents sticks out. One night I walked up to a campfire where you were strumming the guitar. You greeted me with a jovial, “Rock-omazzo!”
I see a light bulb go on as inspiration strikes, and then you start singing, accompanying yourself on the guitar:
“Rock-a-ma-zoe in the bosom of Abraham…”
Thirty years later, whenever I hear the tune of that old spiritual, these are the lyrics that come to mind.
Rick
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 16, 2006 - 11:00am PT
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Hi Kevin and welcome to Supertopo.
It has been quite some time.
Got any pics of your old brown mini truck with the home made color coordinated shell?
'Twas a very distinctive set up for the times.
All those Middle Apron routes are so creative and stimulating; the other side of your contribution which I've much appreciated are the offbeat yet distinguished multi pitch crack line gems which you and Chapman pioneered for us, often my favorite tours, things like Windfall, Beggar's Buttress, Joker/Thief and the like.
('Never sampled The Warbler (not your route but your namesake? I forget the story) or Ramblin' Rose).
I still see Teri Martin once in a blue moon and more so her daughter Lisa, who lives out her in Boulder with her husband John Christie and kids.
Cheers,
Roy McClenahan
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 16, 2006 - 11:44am PT
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Kevin, I usually climbed with Claude Fiddler, Jim Keating, David Yerian, Hank Ward, Bob Jones (some) but also some with Ed Barry, Dave Hitchcock, Lew Dawson, Rich Jack, couple of times with Charlie Porter.
Unfortunately I partied too much and didn’t get enough climbing in when I hung out in the Valley off and on from 1975 to 1977.
I never climbed a route with you (I don’t think) but use to boulder with you and partied some.
I’m 50, 5’6” and I use to be blonde, from the Bay Area and I had an old 1948 Ford pickup with a home-made wood camper and the truck was ‘psychedelic’ color as when I was sanding the body down to repaint all the old paints came through (the truck must have been painted five or six times in its life) so I just shellacked it over. Always got stopped crossing the Central Valley going from the Valley to Walnut Creek/Lafayette. The truck was a magnet for CHP, deputy sheriffs and city police (Manteca, Oakdale, etc).
I only have a few pix of me climbing (never took a camera along climbing) so I’ll try and dig them up to see if you recognise who I am. I have an box in the closet with some old photos as well as some undeveloped film that I hope to develop and see if they are any good, perhaps there is one of the truck. I’d think though that after 20-30 years the film may not be any good.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Sep 16, 2006 - 11:53am PT
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Kevin,
Yeah, the decades are rolling by.
That's one of the smears below the trail to Half Dome. I think we were just top roping...pretty thin ice. I rememember Charlie Porter was there that day, but I don't remember who else.
Rick
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 16, 2006 - 12:42pm PT
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Here Patrick,
A few very recent photos of your old buddys and a few others to boot.
Kevin, I'm sure you remember all of these folks well.
Dave Hitchcock & Dave Bircheff:
Jim Keating:
Ellie Hawkins & Phil Bircheff:
Mike Ferrel & Phil Bircheff:
Ferrel, Tom Carter, Bob Harrington:
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:06pm PT
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Wow Tarbuster, thanks for the pix, when were they taken?
Haven't seen Jimbo since...?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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Alrighty then,
Just a couple more to welcome Kev' here.
For me, this opportunity to put us all back together is what I most value in Super Topo.
These all taken during a fairly impromptu gathering July of '06.
Chuck Cochrane, Bill Russel, and Carter during a hilarious 'ole story sesh:
Rick Cashner & Ken Yeager:
Carter and Dennis Oakeshott:
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:24pm PT
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That's a good one Kath,
er I mean eKatBallerinaNijinskaHotBabeoftheWayBack...
Bill Nichol, Clevenger & Son:
Phil Bircheff, Ellie Hawkins, Bob Finn:
Base of Werner's Wiggle.
Bob Finn is a personal favorite of mine.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 16, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Here's another of Cochrane in illustrious tall tale form:
More Carter, Keating, Harrington:
And a very distinguished Oakeshott:
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 16, 2006 - 02:01pm PT
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OK, here's the last of some substantial thread drift,
But I think Kevin 'gits the pic-hure.
Yes, Kevin, maybe there's a few Warbler snapshots finding their way onto your scanner as we speak?
Man I bet you got some gems from the bad 'ole days...
Tarbousier convinced Phil to the takin' of a dram at a time honored overlook:
Clyde Minaret, Ritter/Banner above Red's Meadow, Devil's Postpile,
From San Juaquin Ridge/Minaret Summit.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 16, 2006 - 07:08pm PT
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Ok,
To straighten out the collateral way back to the future snapshot tread drift,
Here's a photo of The Warbler (Kevin) I ripped from, er, borrowed from Falkenstein and I think Tom Carter may have taken it:
Who are them other longhairs?
This is before my time I think...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 16, 2006 - 08:58pm PT
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'Cud that one dude on the right side be Klonica?(sp)
(One ah them ruff'n tumble too high boyz)
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 09:19pm PT
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Rick Reeder with the guitar and Dave Bircheff in foreground.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2006 - 09:25pm PT
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Or maybe Phil Bircheff, one or the other for sure.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 17, 2006 - 01:19am PT
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Here's an 80's Kauk, Fish, Kevin, Mittendorf:
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Sep 17, 2006 - 11:13am PT
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Roy are you sure that is Fish? Looks more like Russsel to me.
Ken
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Sep 17, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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Ken, thats Russ, sure as the day is long, note how the two handed pocket-pool set up he's running with the slightly bent wrist flair.
Kevin, is the Pannikan still on your morning rounds?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 17, 2006 - 07:33pm PT
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Mike and Kevin,
Your stories about doing the Graham Traverse en route to a chopfest on the lower Salathe jogged my memory.
Back in 1983, I climbed through that area while putting up The Turning Point. The second pitch ends at the belay where you guys began that huge sweeping downward traverse to the left to reach the Salathe.
After rappelling at the end of the day, Yosemite caretaker John Bachar, approached to ask if I was aware that I had been on hallowed ground. I said yes, and told him that I had added a bolt to protect the very last 5.11a sequence to reach the belay. I watched as his jaw tightened and he pondered his response to the indiscretion. Only after I pre-empted his certain sneer by informing him that fifty feet of runout 5.10 all the way up the down ramp had left The Graham Traverse, with its enormous windshield wiper pendulum fall, essentially intact, did he smile. "Just checking," he said as we parted company, just a little closer for having shared an obscure bit of history that few would know or appreciate.
We old guard carry around a lot of great tales. I thought you guys might appreciate this one.
Cheers-Steve
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 18, 2006 - 02:41am PT
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Kevin wrote:
"Space Babble is the only route I've done that I would consider adding bolts to or condone adding bolts to simply because, as you mentioned, the climbing is epic and so central, but rarely enjoyed by anyone as far as I know. I know you would argue that the sparse protection only makes the route better, and I hear you, but it is kind of a shame so few people taste that part of Middle. How 'bout adding bolts, but enforcing a special no chalk rule? "
Quite a few years back, I top-roped Space Babble pitch by pitch while rapping from Kor-Beck. It hadn't had many ascents as evidenced by the fact that I could rip the faded 1 inch tubular webbing apart with my bare hands. A couple anchors are truly shaky too.
I couldn't believe the quality of the climbing. Really one of the best routes in the valley. It is a shame that it's never done. At least replacing the anchors would let folks do it wimpy style like I did.
Peace
Karl
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 18, 2006 - 07:35am PT
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I am curious, having been out of the Valley scene since the late 1970s, but what is up with doing Space Babble chalkless? I don't know anything about the route except that is is 5.11a/b and on Middle.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 18, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
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Yo, KW--
Tell us the story about you and three others on Mother Earth, and how you battled up to the big ledge after many heroics only to find that George had mistakenly bought dog food for dinner.
JL
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Sep 18, 2006 - 01:49pm PT
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Did Royal chop my bolts? I don’t think so but Steve you will be pleased to know, Royal did take my hammer from me.
Hey, had a great weekend with some old Slabmasters, Muir, Hensel, Bolton, Graham (my son Ian) a new route even got established. Went to fill my chalk bag with this white stuff, turned out to be like Talcum power. Had to do the routes with a handicap.
Cheers
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 18, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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Rik (I think he spelled it without the c) Reider, another very nice guy who had time for me. I remember when he got injured on (I think) the PO Wall when Bridwell and some of you guys were putting it up. Something about a flake and an awful head injury. I think Bachar was up there with him and had to lower him off, but my memory may not be serving me well.
Hell of a nice guy and damn good climber.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 19, 2006 - 12:09am PT
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No non-essential pro that I recall on SB. Hee Haa. Middle Rock fixed pins were always pretty psychological anyway. Don't pop, psychology. It might help explain the lack of ascents if those short arrows are gone.
Mike, nice story about Royal taking your hammer! The Valley never saw such a stern farmer again. If you would like to elaborate on that classic intergenerational moment, I'm all ears. LOL! I don't remember seeing more that two old rusty Leeper hangers out left once I pieced your route together while leading on TP. Were you around when Fawcett and Livesey repeated SB and presumably that photo in Yosemite Climber was taken?
Cheers-Steve
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 19, 2006 - 01:11am PT
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Kevin,
Instead of big shiny modern bolt hangers I would happily send you some historical stainless SMC 3/8" hangers. There has never been a failure on the stainless version. Perhaps the old pin positions could be reused and somehow pinned or reinforced? A drilled 1/2" angle epoxied in would work too since the runouts aren't too ridiculous. Perhaps that is going too far in the name of flavor but I would be happy to help in the effort to refit SB if you are thinking about it. What am I going to do with all that ironmongery anyway? Any excuse to visit Yosemite is a great one.
Cheers-Steve
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tom Carter
Trad climber
CA
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Sep 19, 2006 - 10:27am PT
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That's Kevin, Phil & Rik Reider
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Sep 19, 2006 - 11:38am PT
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Hi Tom, How goes?
moyles
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Sep 19, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
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Great story Kevin, I hope you’re published.
Steve, one of my favorite encounters with Royal was when I first met him. I was working at our local ski\climbing shop in Newport Beach. He was visiting the store with his wife and three year old daughter. We were selling his “Galibier” Boot line he was importing so his mission was somewhat business. Me of course being all business, walks up to him shakes his hand and can only say “Did you hear we freed the Vampire”! He looks at me kind of cross-eyed, tries to grin and musters a faint “Really????” I don’t remember if I was more cordial after that (probably not) but he didn’t stick around long. All I could think of, was it something I said? He really was one of my heroes maybe I should have opened with that line.
Hi Tom! Yeah I knew that was Rik and Phil, Rik and I were pretty close after his mishap on PO. I could barely get him down the five pitches by myself since he was unconscious for the first three. that story will have to wait for some other time.
Mike
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Jorge
climber
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Sep 19, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
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Kev
Okay, okay, that was a low blow and has forced me to totally refute your otherwise wonderful post about the BO. Unfortunately I have gotten lost in the cobwebs of my mind in trying to find anything that might for sure say that was NOT dog food.
Great to connect again.
Jorge
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Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
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Sep 19, 2006 - 10:02pm PT
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Kevin,
That was a great long post and a worthwhile tale of a great route. I hadn't heard that story before.
Sept 19, 2006
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 20, 2006 - 12:04am PT
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Kevin,
A nice historical snapshot of Mother Earth served upon a bed of tasty prose...
Three Cheers!
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Sep 20, 2006 - 01:01pm PT
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Great story, Kevin, keep em coming.
You don't remember me.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 20, 2006 - 01:16pm PT
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Mike, you jogged my memory, excuse me for saying Bachar lowered Rik on that PO mishap when now I recall it was you.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2006 - 05:02pm PT
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Hey Jorge, (George Meyers) just start slow. Look at some old pictures of Middle. Maybe glance at some old photos of your climbing friends.
Maybe it will start to come back.
Just to get you going, you were climbing in the Valley in the early 1970s. Had lots of close friends. Did some really stellar routes. Things were going really well for you until you ruined it all by going into the writ'ng and publish'ng business.
We all make mistakes. Let it go.
I know that dementia really sucks. But we'll help you through it.
Just glad that you are setting a new low standard for memory retention. I'm feeling better about myself already. Hee, he.
Your friend, Buzz
PS: Of course it was dog food! It was cheap. Besides it was only John and Kevin that had to eat it. What the hell did they know?
Got any pictures?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Sep 21, 2006 - 03:36am PT
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Pinnacles has some of those drilled pitons, they seemed plenty solid, except the bolt itself was a star dryv.
oh, and it was Pinnacles rock. :)
Cheers,
Munge
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 21, 2006 - 06:49am PT
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I know my climbing prowess wasn’t at the top of the game/chain, and I know I farted around too much in the Valley when I should have been on the rock, but I am having a second ‘reckoning’. To be remembered for my truck more than my climbing is… ‘sobering’ to say the least. ;-)
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 21, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
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It was dog food, Jorge, and sans vittles, we had to bail meaning when I returned to do the whole route I had to climb those lower pitches again, which was exciting. I remember being very proud that I made it all the way up those first ten leads with no falls.
I also remember Mark Chapman had just returned from Alaska and wasn't really dialed into rock climbing at that exact moment and he got out there on one of those 5.9 pitches down low-- with basically no pro--and things got a little sketchy. There's also a 5.10d pitch up high, like 2,000 feet up there--Kauk led it and it's a dandy. Ron also ended up with the short but chilling A4 bit.
Those adventures on Middle were amazing, none moreso than the first ascent of Stoners, before any of us knew what the hell we were really doing. Kevin was at the top of his game and did some amazing route finding out on the sharp end. There must have been like 20 people involved in all the probes of that route.
JL
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 21, 2006 - 06:10pm PT
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Rokjox, I had an old pair of EBs with leather but I don't remember selling them. Could be, that was like, 30 years ago or so. I also had a pair of PAs with rubber on the sides.
I don't think I was that fussy about the truck being touched, but that was like, how long ago...? heh heh
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Jorge
climber
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Sep 21, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
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Hey John: Yeah those routes were special. Mostly the wandering into the big unknown that set them apart from the crack lines. I truly don't know how anybody could do similar routes any faster than we did. It just was mentally tiring to get out on the sharp end over and over, and placing those bolts by hand.
Stoners was a breakthrough climb. I've got some classic pics of you on stuff. We'll get it out there eventually.
I think I lost interest in the upper Mother Earth when we started putting in the ladder off the ledges. You know some young punk could probably sport it out free these days...
And remember the impressive wall above the traverse ledges? WHat stunningly steep and featured climbing that would be? Maybe 3 pitches, way up high and real steep. How we fanticized how it could be protected on lead with hooks and slings on horns, opposing slings held with bungies, etc., not rap bolted by some yahoo... And it's still there.... Certainly bigger than us...
Jorge
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:09am PT
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Unbelievable...Kevin W., George M., Roger B., Largo ??., (well largo!...he always defied description) Mike G., Werner B., and others...What have I stumbled upon in cyber space?? To the Mother Earth crew: I have a photo of Kev in his RRs with George (chesire cat grin in place!)at the base of Mother Earth that fateful day the four of us set out...One of my favorites and a fond memory indeed.
Chappy
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 22, 2006 - 02:21am PT
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Wow!
Way to go Chapman; 'good thing you showed up.
Right on time.
Cheers,
Roy
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Sep 22, 2006 - 07:05am PT
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Wow, welcome Mark Chapman. Another Stonemaster who has succumbed to the Taco Stand.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 25, 2006 - 01:27am PT
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Dug up these slides of climbing on Middle Rock. Except for the first shot, these were taken by The Warbler himself.
North Face slab on a nasty day. Black Primo climbs the black coneshaped intrusion above and left of the climber.
Black Primo.
Crux pitch.
Jigsaw - wild 5.9 climbing and sparse pro.
Same nasty day as above, further up the trail; snow in the Gunsight.
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Hangerlessbolt
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Nov 25, 2006 - 03:25am PT
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I totally shouldn't even be allowed in this thread...this is unreal...Color me starstruck
-RB
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:26pm PT
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Boy, those pics of Black Primo bring back some memories. Like KW said, that snowbank shot gives a visceral feel for the magnitude of the place. The dark rock and shady vibe made it all the more intimidating when you're up there, on sight, trying to find your way. A couple things stand out in my mind.
First, the boots back then were not great for smearing, which is mostly what you find on Middle. I climbed Stoner's in those old red PA's and had to edge everything. EBs weren't a lot better. I remember going back and doing Stoner's in sticky boots (the original Fires) and thinking how much more secure they made the climbing. Also, especially on Stoner's (before we got dialed into route finding), we often did the hardest climbing on stuff that was actually off route. Kevin led a pitch down low that was probably 5.11+ (remember that weird roof thing) that we later found we could travers around at 5.10b.
Another thing(on first ascents)-- when you really had to buckle down and go for it the main concern wasn't so much cranking the moves, it was hoping that somewhere in the next twenty or so feet you'd find a hold to place the next bolt, or maybe a crack for a wire or a blade. This was particularly so on Mother Earth and Black Primo (or Black Rose as it's now called) because they were steper than the other routes and you couldn't eyeball options with much certainty.
On the hardest pitch of Black Primo, Kevin and I went up and down putting bolts in and after Kevin finally sank the last bolt before the crux (a sh#t-your-pants placement on a truly steep wall), I recall going back up on the sharp end and studying the rock below for quite a while, trying to see what I'd hit if I popped. The wall below was steep and smooth and eventually I went for it, on fairly rounded holds, totally clueless if I could crank the moves and if so, if there was anytwhere above on which to stop and arrange the next pro. That was one of thge few times in my whole climbing career that I said, F*#k it, I'm going for it and come what may. I'd seen Tobin work this strategy to disasterous results but thiings worked out for us on that day. More than simply hard (I imagine this route is still pretty hard), Black Primo was a great route with high adventure. You had to be a solid face climber with good mental control to have any chance at all.
Great memories.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
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Funny how abject terror fades to great memories!
I remember going back to that slab recently to climb some of the better protected routes that seemed like sport climbs when they first went up (in my mind) now they seemed pretty led out!
A long time ago, I took a 35 foot upside down and backwards whipper on Freewheelin when my foot slipped on some sand after the crux. Knocked out half of one of my front teeth. We bailed to the denist! I went back for revenge a number of years later and when I got to the place where I could clip the bolt to protect that section, the bolt was gone! I finally found the rusty hole and figured "enough is enough" and I was outa there.
great memories!
;-)
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
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Kevin wrote: "Maybe Largo could guide me up it for old times sake."
Since Christmas time is nigh upon us, kindly bone up on a classic X-mas song known the world over as, "I'll be home on Christmas," paying special attention to the line, ". . . if only in my dreams."
JL
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 26, 2006 - 01:49pm PT
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Greetings All
I hope everybody tucked away a little mantle insurance over the holidays, just in case. Great to have you on Mark. How about posting that teaser photo of KW? Lots of juice kicked up by those dusty old images.
Great post on Black Primo John! Locking and loading in the spirit of God's righthand man, I love it. Not just another day pulling the trigger at the office fa sure! Incidentally guys, Black Primo is Black Primo and by any other name would not smell as sweet though the Rose lingers curiously on.
The grand cast of characters and quality stone on Middle Rock make for such a uniquely rich and wonderfully challenging experience if you are solid enough to pay the piper and get on up there. I dream on it every day. An Ansel Adams photo of the lower main wall from Space Babble to Stoner's winks at me every time I sit in the clawfoot tub at days end.
More tales and pics please!!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
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Kev wrote " then up a left facing corner to a bolt protecting the crux. When he fell above the bolt all the nuts in the corner lifted out and came spinning down the taut rope, adding to the length of his fall and leaving one of those quarter inchers between him and a huge (100ft?) ride. "
Yeah, that sounds like the culprit. I thought that maybe I could get away with a piece in the corner but the memory of the previous flight made me think better of it. It was one of those deals when the crux was all but finished and there was one move to bombersville but that when the mind slipped it's attention for a microsecond and whoosh...!
I know the first part of the climb was rebolted and I think I remember that they went back and finished the job. I'm gettin too old for long flights though. Maybe Russ will guide me up there.
I was on the first pitch of Stoner's a few years back and Bridwell shows up and says he thinks the route used to start like 35 feet to the left. I'd done the route over 20 years earlier and it hadn't moved so it was hard to agree, but it was Bridwell so it was hard to disagree. I'm pigheaded so I disagreed anyway.
Peace
Karl
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
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I might be mistaken about this but I believe I made the second ascent of Freewheeling, and Kevin came along as a guide. Kevin was huge on these new routes and being a face climber I had to go up for a look see. I also remember a sling belay up there off dreadfully sketchy wires pasted behind a little flapjack flake, and Englishman Ed Drummond climbing directly off said belay on greasy, insecure slab moves and me thinking if Ed pops here we're all done for. I trust that belay has been shorn up since.
JL
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2006 - 08:04pm PT
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Hey Kevin, I don't think that Royal would have had any difficulty with the bolts we placed on Freewheeling--they were a long way apart and he was only concerned about slipping standards. I don't think anyone accused us of that--maybe stupid!
I have some old b&w pictures of you, me and George on the first day tries on Freewheeling. I'll try to get them scanned and posted.
I have a question on the first bolt. I placed one directly above the bleay on the second pitch, to move up and right into that thin corner. I thought that that was the first bolt we placed, but that would have meant no bolts on the entire first pitch. But in all the topos, I've seen there is bolt half way up the first pitch. Do you remember if we placed that bolt on the first pitch? Is this the one that was missing?
Roger
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 26, 2006 - 11:46pm PT
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Hey, Roger--
I'd love to see any photos of any of our generation during Middle C. explorations. I never had a camera during all my early climbing days and the only pics I have prior to about 1976 were taken by others. It doesn't much matter to me who the photo is since back then we were all basically interchangable partners.
Per the second ascent of Freewheeling, I don't remember the first pitch having any pro whatsoever. It didn't seem all that horrendous for one reason: We'd spend hours traversing and climbing around at the base of Middle in order to get used to the rock. Many, many times we'd go crack climbing and on the drive back from the Cookie or Arch Rock or El Cap or wherever we'd stop by Middle and spend an hour or so traversing. After about fifty of these sessions you learned just how far you could go on the orange, white, grey and black holds, what your boots would stick to and not stick to, and you developed a certain style of cross presuring and mantling off finger tips and so forth--stuff that worked well on Middle and nowhere else. This gave us the confidence to go for big runouts and keep the lid on because there was nothing you'd find out on the lead that you hadn't seen in one form or another during the traversing workouts. Sometimes you'd have like six guys, some 30 or even 40 feet off the ground, just meandering around and getting the whole thing dialed in. The reason for this was that there were sections of the harder routes like Space Babble and Black Primo where you couldn't afford to fall. That's why stuff up to about 5.10b (probably 5.10c/d in the old EBs) had very sparce pro. They guys who put in the time traversing knew what they could do. I think what made this climbing so interesting is that it was far more mental than gymnastic--especially so on first ascents. It was much more a confidence game than a bouldering fest.
JL
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:12am PT
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hey steve --
been trading some old war stories and pm's with a few folks on greasy but groovy -- did you ever get on GBG, or shaky flakes? seems like the kind of self-inflicted, one-move-at-a-time chinese water torture you'd be attracted to. did thanksgiving with hatcher and eve in moab this year, was flipping through the new "valley free climbs" book and noticed the GBG now sports an R/X rating, as oppposed to the old "R" rating...
by my count i've now identified three parties i personally know (not counting the FA party, I sort of knew rick back in the 70's when he was going to USD) who've done the route, and they all count it as a rite of passage. pretty sure danny McD has done it, gotta call him and chat him up about that rig.
shaky flakes felt a bit harder, but it was a sportclimb compared to GBG.....usually it was ok to fall on shakey flakes...GBG felt like free-soloing with a rope and (very nervous) belayer...!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:33am PT
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Man, I've taken nearly all my most harrowing free climbing falls on Middle Cathedral. Maybe I should do some traversing. I've never actually found anybody doing it there.
What's the beta for the best places on Middle to traverse, you know, for mortals that don't want to deck from high up?
peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 12:42am PT
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Bvb
Done all of Shakey Flakes but only done GBG to to top of the third pitch. That Third pitch of GBG is so continuous and beautiful, it's one of the best slab pitches in the valley. It's got good pro too, except if you fall on the 15 foot (more or less) runout to the first bolt and crash down onto the lower angle slab below. Jeesh.
There's one pitch high up on Shakey Flakes where you're something like 50 feet runout, have to make some dicey moves, and if you fall you're going over a roof way down below, but will hit the slab eventually anyway.
I love(d) it, but no wonder slab climbing is more or less dead these days. Somebody stop me from going back on those routes.
it's kinda like hard aid climbing. You don't know for sure if you gonna fall until get "that feeling" all of a sudden and bye, bye, hope you come in for a happy landing.
Peace
Karl
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 27, 2006 - 01:17am PT
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karl -- jeeeeebus dude -- you lived through P3 and didn't gun for the top? lotsa runout sh#t up there as i recall (after 19 years it's a bit fuzzy...) but i'm guessing P3 is the R/X pitch. althogh P4 has it moments, i beleieve you can fall anywhere on it and walk away with nothing worse than a bad rug burn and a good story...as you sell all your gear and take up knitting...
mt first peek at greasy but groovy was when i beleayed lance lynch on a new route he was working on just left of it in '75; became an obsession that took 12 years to put to bed after that....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 27, 2006 - 01:30am PT
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bvb, haven't heard that name in a great while. What has become of Mr. Lynch? He and a bunch of other Tucson climbers were at a party. Lance was very drunk, and coupled with exceptionally bad eyesight, led him to hit Mike McEwen, the top dog in Tucson, in the neck with a dart. He had no idea he'd done it and I'm not entirely sure why Mike didn't knock his block off. He still holds a grudge about that.
I'll write up my tale about an early repeat of GBG another time. I took the screamer on pitch 3 and kept on climbing. More later.
Cheers,
Steve
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 27, 2006 - 01:59am PT
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"I'll write up my tale about an early repeat of GBG another time. I took the screamer on pitch 3 and kept on climbing."
that'd be killer, steve.
having been nudged by a PM from one of the psychos still breathing after the FA, i've been calling around to the olddads to see who's been on it. a very short list it apprears.
i'd recalled that me and joc just went up there and fired it after doing shakey flakes, but she has inserted the reality that we pecked away at the sucker for close to a year before we managed a continuous, no-falls ascent. she refreshed my memory on how i wore through a brade-new pair of levis on one mmemorable skider....
this during a time when we'd go do the calf and play misty and quicksilver for laughs.
it's time GBG recieved it's due as one of, if not THE, gnarliest, longest, most nerve racking "slab" routes around.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 02:03am PT
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If I remember correctly, pitch 3 of GBG has OK pro after the first runout, which probably wouldn't kill you. (I do remember thanking God when I reached the 'hole' where you clip the first bolt after some 10a moves looking at 30 foot slab whack if I screwed up. I do think of that pitch as probably my proudest no-falls onsight on slab. It never lets up and burns your calves and tips good.
I think the X rating probably comes from the 2nd pitch, which, even though it's only 5.7, has only one bolt in a ropelength. (maybe none now, can't remember)
Either that or some of these routes have sick chossy pitches near the top. My newer guides are buried in the car and I ripped all the relevant pages out of the ones in the house to take up the climbs back when.
I enjoyed the Rambler and Mid-Life Crisis. Both of these are exciting, thought provoking, and yet, not so death defying.
Peace
karl
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 27, 2006 - 02:13am PT
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i dunno man, the first "hard" pitch on GBG is a hairball sonofabitch lead..and as with all hard slab, seems casual on a tr....i'm pretty f*#king sure we pretty much soloed the first two pitches and didn't think much of it.
as i try to ressurect these old memories, i would not be surpriseed the the X rating comes from the long, long stretcheds of 5.8 - 5.9 on the last 4 pitches where you basically solo a pitch, trailing a rope for your buddies....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 02:51am PT
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I think you're right about the higher pitches of GBG getting the X rating.
The first 7 pitches of the Hall of Mirrors is another place I used to go for mind-numbing slab-0-meditations. Your shoes would squeek on the stone like you were climbing a balloon and you could turn a 30 foot slider into a 15 foot slider by simply grabbing the sling on the bolt on your way past it! (not that doing so was a good idea.)
Falling on the Apron seems comforting compared to Middle, which is steep enough to make you fly.
Peace
Karl
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2006 - 10:08am PT
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Hey Kevin and John,
I have some very good sequence shots of 'Freewheeling.' Some were used by Wilson in my history of Middle Rock that he published in Mountain.
Those bolt protected climbs on Middle, both the Northeast face and the Apron, set our generation apart. The 60s guys had nailed crack systems and then guys like Beck, Sacherer, and Fredericks did them free. But by the early 70s, we were climbing on blank faces, running out the leads, and placing bolts for primary protection. Ray's comment: "I got us into trouble, and Rik got us out," sums it up pretty well (about their first ascent of 'Paradise Lost’, the first of the new routes.) The second route, CPoF followed a crack system and had no bolts until my ‘chicken sh#t traverse—didn’t Jim have a way of summing up the whole matter?—at the first ‘top’. Then Jim returned with Billy and John and climbed straight up, thereby ruining a great climb with hard climbing.
I heard that John led the pitch by doing a full, four points off, lunge to a single blade of grass, which he captured in his teeth for a deadpoint, off balance, stemming smear.
Launched a writing career, I think. Probably 5.8 static in sticky shoes.
The 60s guys never ventured onto those bolted face routes--I am sure Jim's comment to Kevin about leading on the Apron is pretty indicative.
Regarding the first pitch of 'Freewheeling,' I don't think that we placed any bolts. I remember George belaying me, just standing on the ground, and asking me if I was going to put anything in, in his super polite, gentle way. I remember replying that there were no cracks and it was easy climbing. George just gave me one of his trademark quizzical looks and dropped the belay rope, with an open palm gesture of resignation--(hip belays). I kept wandering around, back and forth, as if I were tacking into the wind. I claimed the lead on the second pitch since the first pitch was an 'approach pitch.' I place a couple of bolts on that pitch. To John's point, we had the head-trip wired so to speak, although I never bouldered on the base--too lazy.
(Come on John, what sort of freak were you? Driving back from climbing in the lower Merced River Valley, on your way to a beer and hanging out, with the possibility of pretty girls to chat up, and you stopped at the base of Middle to boulder? To my knowledge, pretty girls never hung out at the base of Middle, serving beer, waiting for climbers to show up. You had a lot of drive but no focus, man. Heehe.)
As natural as it seemed at the time--fun too--those runouts above single ¼ inch bolts were sort of crazy. I don't think any of us gave it a second thought.
I’ll dig out the pictures I have and post them up. George has some photos from those first years, right after he got his camera. He promised that he would post them after he and Merrill returned from their trip.
Best, Roger
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 27, 2006 - 10:32am PT
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Working on old Breedlove routes you get the feeling that there was a lot more "head work" going on in the training program... bouldering or not, actually I'd call it "boldering." The correct identification of the climbing "limits" issue is that it is mostly mental.
Those routes had to venture onto ground that had no real natural protection to get to the features. Once you identified that ground as "climbable," the only challenge was to actually go and climb it. Sometimes a 1/4" x 1" split shaft steel bolt was placed with one of those Dolt hangers... probably was strong enough (originally) to hange a 1200 lb VW bug off of... and way less sketchy than a lot of pro that got pounded in on other routes....
...but then Royal was watching over your shoulders too, at least in your thoughts, so you guessed you shouldn't put too many bolts in.
You left us many examples of what it means to break through the thoughts that keep us planted on the ground... when you can climb at a 5.10d level, you should be able to safely run out stuff at 5.8 and 5.9, maybe even solo at that level... and you put theory to practice. But it was the idea that the mind needed to be able to do the route more than any body training (which you also did... at least some of you); you left us some mental exercises to work on.
Thanks!
The Arches Apron is great for that squeaky rubber sound!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 27, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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Greasy but Groovy
This was a sure bet for Richard Harrison, Rick Accomazzo and yo because the climbing on that apron was almost exactly like the steep slabs at Suicide, one of our home crags, and we were totally dialed into that kind of work back then. However, the major challenge on GBG was (like on Middle C.) not so much the moves or even the runouts, but route finding and drilling all those bolts on the lead. This was especially the case on the 5th pitch, which has some decent edges but is no longer a true slab--it's steeper.
Truth be told, Rick A. was going for the Mother of all Runouts on the 3rd pitch, about 35 feet above the first bolt (the one placed in that hole) when he ripped a flake off the wall and took a huge whistler. The 2nd bolt on that pitch was never supposed to be there (it's about 10 feet below where Rick took his fall) and never would have been placed had Ricky not rodcketed off. Too bad, too, because he was already on easier stuff when the hold ripped. This kind of dicy fandango was in line with the philosophy many of us held back then--that you had to run the rope peoperly "to keep the fluff off" the route. Pretty arrogent come to think about it, but it worked for us . . .
Speaking of Rick A., few people these days understand how skilled he was at the king-sized runout. Two routes come to mind: Mouth to Perhaps, on the Apron, and Spooky Tooth, on Lower. I wouldn't suggest falling on either route. And all of these routes were done in either RDs, PAs, or later, EBs. If anyone repeated Greasy but Groovy in EBs, my hats off to them.
I could go on and on . . .
JL
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Nov 27, 2006 - 02:01pm PT
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Good insight on GBG John. I have some vivid recollections of that route.
I thought I would contribute a few photos that seem relevant to both a Worrall Route and GBG conversation.
Bridwell and I did Free Wheelin with Max Jones and Augie West (is the last name right?) we were two parties of two which seemed the most efficient and gave you more leads to boot.
If memory serves me right Augie did the long awaited second ascent of GBG with Bill Price And all.
Bridwell smiling in the sun
Augie working out a great section of moves
Max Jones in heavy concentration.
Edit: Auggie Kline, Thanks now I Remember.
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Tired Trad Tales
Trad climber
southern cal
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Nov 27, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
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It's Auggie Klein
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 27, 2006 - 06:53pm PT
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Kevin-
Here you are in Eldo in the mid 70's
And here you are on the Northwest Corner
And the red line is that unprotected variation to Jules Verne that you, Breashears and I did. Good memories, thanks!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 27, 2006 - 11:07pm PT
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Howdy folks,
Lots of action on this thread! Fig and I also did Shakey Flakes in preparation. Greasy But Groovy was a very mysterious undertaking back when I was asking around. Nobody had been on it and the name alone seemed to invoke a good clench among the folks that were aware of its reputation. I think that Fig and I did the third repeat of the first three pitches before the short October days sent us down. My guide is hiding and I have been sorting through slides to bolster my memory.
I recall nothing of note until the thirty foot runout at the bottom of pitch three. The wall steepens and the entire pitch looks like a mirage with hangers at first. A little rubbernecking and the celebrated hole shows itself as the only visible feature. Immediately, its all silver dollar edges and every move feels 5.10. I remember being so absorbed that I was a little startled to suddenly see the beacon of security just a couple moves away! To call it a hole is generous when you get to it and can't even catch your breath. A quick glance down the wave face to Fig was the wrong idea and the adrenalin surf was up! Surging back on the tiny edges again for my hands, I smeared with the left and foot dynoed high into the hole. My right foot missed the back of the saucer and just caught the lip. Unable to press it out, of course, the left foot begins to ooze downward along with the rest of me. "Fig, I'm coming off!" I yelled as the ooze turned into a squirt, then a gush, then a torrent. I looked down at Fig hastily hauling in rope through his belay plate as I went geek skiing on by. Eventually l passed the stance and began sliding on my side down the lower angled intermediate run coming up. About ten feet below the belay I suddenly stopped. Fig had reeled in no less than seven arm lengths of rope! After the usual niceties and a moment's recollection, I swarmed back up to the belay. Awash in adrenaline and with much less fear of the consequences, I didn't wobble the second time around and stood up proudly in the beacon hole.
Then the hard climbing actually starts and the entire coin collection is in play. The thin work doesn't let up for the rest of the pitch. My memories are vague on what the fourth pitch had to offer beside more relentless crimping. Suicide style as JL pointed out. All this fun and more since neither of us carried chalkbags back then. More images soon.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Nov 28, 2006 - 10:27am PT
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steve, you did it without chalk???? didja use refried beans instead?? damn you are one crazy mutha. but from my visits to tuscon when you and off and eve et al lived there, i always knew you tuscon guys were a bit addled from all that heat....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 28, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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Eeewww...!
Steve, you fell from the ho'! the longest and knarliest whip! That was a totally classic description. Always wondered what would happen if I whipped there! Nice fishing reel by the Fig.
The fact that you didn't get ripped up somehow doesn't help summon the inspiration to jump back on that thing. I AM inspired, I just hope I know better.
I had no idea the thing had a reputation. We were just going through the book doing all the 5.10 or so multipitch routes that didn't seem like certain death.
Thanks!
Karl
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yo
climber
The Eye of the Snail
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Nov 28, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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Y'all is crazy. I dig this thread.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 28, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
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Christ, Steve, I can't believe you ripped from that hole--and lived. Skidding down that lower-angled slab below, with a head of steam up, is enough to take you down to the bone, or so I thought. Fig must have had a power winch to reel in that much slack so fast, otherwise that would have been a genuine 80 footer. That you went BACK up there suggests to me that professional help is indicated. You da man.
Dood, I'd love to see any slides of this thing if you have any.
JL
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Nov 28, 2006 - 04:48pm PT
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THIS is the shot I was looking for, Kevin. The Warbler out havin' fun in the olden days!
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Nov 28, 2006 - 09:49pm PT
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I wanted to ad my thoughts on why these routes like GBG and the ones on Middle Cathedral are runout. I think it was more than just “to keep the fluff off” as Johnny said.
I think we were aware that too many bolts could lead to the “murder of the impossible,” in Messner’s famous phrase. It made for a better game if you got above the protection until you were a bit (or more than a bit) uncomfortable about the consequences. Also we knew that placing bolts was completely inconsistent with the “clean climbing” ethic of the time, discussed recently in Jello’s nut thread. Placing a bolt was an admission of defeat of sorts , since you had to resort to permanent and unnatural anchors to complete the route. Consequently, we all tried to keep these defeats to a bare minimum. Add to this the ordeal of hand drilling from small stances and it seems to me that it was a combination of sporting reasons and practical reasons that caused the bolts to be few and far between on rocks like Royal Arches and Middle Cathedral.
Correction to JL’s post: Richard Harrison and I did a couple of very unusual routes on the East face of Lower Cathedral, Shake and Bake and Starfire. Spooky Tooth was the third route on that face and was done by Richard and Yabo.
Mike- that shadowed shot on Freewheelin really captures the brilliant colors that are a key part of the Middle experience.
Steve-Yikes! Great description of a monstrous fall. I can still envision those last moves like it was yesterday. As you indicated, the hole is not as good as it looks from below. I remember that I climbed past it and then gingerly stepped left into it. Great effort for you to go right back up there after that.
But this is Kevin’s thread and the subject is Middle Rock , so back on the topic. I helped in trying to push the Jigsaw project up a bit with Roger, Kevin and George one day, but we were all stymied by some moves trying to go straight up one of those tiny corners like the ones that can be seen in one of the photos early in this thread. When I met Roger and George for lunch recently, Roger brought me a photo he took on that day. Thanks again, Roger. Hey Kevin, do you remember who eventually solved the part of the Jigsaw puzzle that foiled us that day?
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
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Geesh, I leave for a while and you guys can't leave it alone...
Here are some shots...A number of Jigsaw, then two of Black Primo. I really don't remember much from yesterday, let alone last week, but I do remember Kevin getting burned a bit on pushing the last pitch of Jigsaw, as it steepened a bit more...and we talked Clevenger into going up on that. We nicely led him up to that pitch, then said, well, we did the work, you just go ahead and finish this off...He was straight up above us perhaps 25 feet with a #2 stopper in as sole pro, trying to blast in a bolt while holding the holder behind his head. The bit split, hit his lip and the blood started flowing, he started freaking--we were a bit concerned ourselves since we were directly below, and when he lowered off a slightly anchored bolt he was covered with blood and pretty much swore off going with us ever...I really don't recall who finally did the pitch, Kauk?, but I do remember getting to a nice flat ledge at the top...
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:27pm PT
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A few more, mostly to show the line of Mother Earth...perhaps explains the allure...
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:30pm PT
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Well, shoot, those Black PRimo shots, must be taken while we were on Jigsaw? who was it?
Looks like Yabo and Bachar
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2006 - 08:51am PT
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Welcome back, George. Hope you had a nice trip. Great thread isn't it?
Rick, I wasn't part of any of the drama on Jigsaw. I think that picture of you was taken by George. But I love that back story of George and Kevin tricking their unsuspecting cohorts into leading the 'death' pitches. Someone is going to have to fess up to leading the last pitch.
The lunch we had together in Denver was pretty special, at least for me. To spend some time with you and George after all these years was great. I was a little disappointed that you looked so young and fit. I don't wish anyone any ill will, but compared to George and me I doubt that anyone would believe we were in the Valley together. Must be the Italian blood line, like my bride.
So far, with everyone I have been able to re-connect with, the feeling and impact has been the same. All the great times come roaring back and within half an hour, we are finishing each other's sentences. Talk about a time machine.
You raise an interesting point on the bolting and runout issues on those early 70s routes. I have never placed much importance on it until it occurred to me recently--while reading posts--that the bolting and runouts may have been one of the first unique contributions our generations made. Based on comments here on ST, very few climbers today have followed that path. Ed and I have had lots of discussions about those times and I have tried to articulate why we did what we did—and we were all doing it to one degree or another. I want to look at the first ascent data, but now that so many of the players are posting on ST, I think a thread where we can try to figure it out is in order.
Roger
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Nov 29, 2006 - 11:01am PT
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Steve, that was a hair raising tale of big wave surfing. That headwall invoked the same analogy for me as I remember. I didn’t know fig was off the white stuff back then. Great job, Largo’s right you da man
Rick you could rest your case on your summation on why the bolts were so spaced. Well said.
More nice pics Jorge!
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
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Yeah Kev, I do vaguely remember something about finding a better way on toprope, but had we gone back up with Kauk? I just don't remember. I do remember that on that dike pitch, I was pretty far out--I think on a single nine mil-- with Bridwell belaying, trying to work out some moves when this voice comes up saying "I don't think I can catch you if you peel..." that snapped me out of feeling pretty good and thus putting in that first bolt in lower than I was happy with. He was probably right, but then you went up, stacked some pins to protect going higher still to another bolt placement, before Largo pretty much fired it... Or am I combining days? If only I had a guidebook to refer to, it might all make more sense, but alas I have none but in storage...
Rick's thing on bolt placing ethics is right on. I'm gonna start a new thread here with some photos of the east face of lower, one from a helicopter...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 29, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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George wrote:
> If only I had a guidebook to refer to, it might all make more sense, but alas I have none but in storage...
Fortunately you distributed a few thousand backup copies to fans worldwide, so here is your topo of Jigsaw, pitch 4:
If you want to see the full page, just let me know.
Thanks for showing us how to do guidebooks right!
Not to mention the awesome action photos and stories in Yosemite Climber and above.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 29, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
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"Rick you could rest your case on your summation on why the bolts were so spaced. Well said."
Yes! I copied it so that I could show my boyfriend later. He loves those routes and sees the style that you guys chose back then as something to presently aspire to on new routes.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 29, 2006 - 09:22pm PT
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Those are good points Ricky brought up per our feelings about bolting back then. Messner, with his "Murder of the Impossible" motto, was on our minds; but we also knew he was a child of the Alps and big mountains, and in the 70s, both venues were not short of huge natural lines to knock off. Our situation was different.
At Joshua Tree we still had natural lines to bag and in doing dozens of first ascent out there I only had to place a handful of bolts. However at Tahquitz and Suicide, and later in Yosemite, most of the obvious crack systems had been bagged, which left us the open faces. So we accepted we could prosecute the Messner "no bolt" ethic in absolute terms, but we wouldn't be able to do many new routes. Our compromise was to consider that bolts were legitimate but that their use had to be justified, and simply being scared was not enough justification to start drilling. If it had been, all those Middle C. routes would have been sport bolted bottom to top. The result is that people usually pushed things to the edge of danger and possible physical harm–sometimes farther–and then sunk a bolt.
This ethic, running the line far as your mind could handle, was the thing that vitalized the game for most of us. The idea was to acquire some modicum of mastery and self control, and you did so out on the sharp end. I went bouldering if I wanted to merely crank hard moves. If I wanted the full dose, I had to get out there on new terrain with a few friends dedicated to finding out just how far we could go and get away with it. Basically we were in it for the excitement, the more the better. The idea that 35 years later I'd be writing about any of this never entered my mind. I was just worried about the next move.
What hasn't been mentioned here is Ricky A's blood-curdling roped soloing that he carried out on Middle. If I'm not mistaken, he rope soloed a stack of the routes we've been talking about. That, ladies and gentlemen, is a very scary proposition, then, and now.
JL
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 29, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
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So how did one rope solo a scarey slab/face in the pre-auto-feeding device era (so far as I'm aware)? Did you drag bights and hope that the didn't catch on anything so that you had to fiddle with it less often? It seems hard to imagine being able to mess with a clove while doing that kind of free climbing.
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
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Well, yeah, you got that right about up there feelin' free, just thinking of going up. Rick is of course right on with the ethic we were operating under... We felt that bolts were basically to be avoided, so you were honor-bound to stretch em out. Good times. Yeah, that Black Primo dike pitch we all had a piece of, that worked out pretty well. I really need to see a guidebook. I remember so little, but your mention of a real nice pitch above rings a bell...
I'm gonna overload the system with photos, and please bear with me if I repeat..
a couple more Jigsaw, a bouldering, 3 Orange Peels (kinda a minor, but fairly technical slab I remember, and then a string of Mother Earths.
I may have to start a thread of my (at the time) unclimbed big ideas that time left...I'm so out of touch, I really wonder if some of these have been done.
I forgot to load the Jigsaws./.I'll get to em..
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:31pm PT
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and mother earth: I particularly like the "staging"\
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:37pm PT
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and then, above the traverse ledges on Mother Earth:
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
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And then more Jigsaw
and Roger Breedlove:
and no, ROger those shots of Black Primo were not tilted. They look pretty right on..
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Fellow Anchorites,
Here are some prototypes for the pinbolt and Leeper replica bolthanger. As I mentioned above, I still have plenty of stainless 3/8" SMC hangers that look exactly like any SMC already in place. These pups are plasma cut from 3/16" stainless steel angle and are massively beefy. The pinbolt eye profile was taken directly from a thick CMI blade. The beef has some utility beyond being sexy and secure. The Leeper replicas would probably take a pretty good rock strike with a 3/8" stainless machine bolt attachment (I use 1/2" hole size stainless Rawl 5-piece bolts).
This shot shows the pinbolt in profile. The 3/8" stainless steel cap screw would be epoxied into a hole drilled once the shaped pinbolt has been driven into its final position. The pinbolts start out uniform thickness of 3/16" and will need to be customized to fit the individual placements. A set of conventional LAs or blades could be used as an approximate feeler gauges to match the crack characteristics. Since the epoxied cap screw acts as a bolt, these pinbolts would be a little different in performance requirements from a conventional piton placement which relies entirely on resistance to rotation and shifting. What would seem to be crucial is that the tip area is solidly engaged against rotation around the bolt axis.
These pinbolts and replica hangers would seem to have a lifespan well beyond 100 years, possibly several. After having placing more than a hundred 3/8" mild steel split shafts with great effort and usually under duress, I sincerely regret not having used stainless steel to equip my routes. All those old bolts, even the big ones, become suspect after a relatively short time as we all know.
The easiest thing about re-equipping Space Babble is the low low bolt and pin count. The future will be overjoyed to clip into any of this heavyweight hardware. In fact, I can't wait to clip in to this stuff myself. Any complaints? hahaha
Cheers,
Steve
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thanks for working on solutions Steve. I was worried about freeze thaw cycles but now i see that you also drill a hole to keep the thing in place.
Which of course brings up the question. Since you're drilling a hole anyway, and since the pin might need to be laborious customized for it's placement, is the pin part mostly a moral placeholder to show that the drilled protection was a legitimate substitute for once natural but destructive and unsustainable hammered pro?
Peace
Karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Karl- This is all about original flavor which is to say maintaining appearance and mystery. Fixed pins are much more subtle than shiny bolts which are usually placed out in the optimal spot with respect to perceived rope travel and hence more noticeable from near or far. When I think back to climbing the first pitch of Space Babble, the three fixed pins were such a joy once you discovered them up tucked into each ear of rock along the way. The crux Leeper buttonhead is virtually invisible from below and doesn't really show itself until you are at the last pin. The protection really spurred me along and I would love to preserve that delightful sense of urgent exploration for future enthusiasts. Topos do enough to dispel adventure. A line of four modern bolts would be a very different experience even though the fall potential would essentially remain the same.
I just happen to have a big attachment to this particular route. The larger question (especially in the light of bolting work parties at large in the land!)is whether to restore older routes to original look and feel. I just bought a twist press for punching holes and am set up to knock these things out. Should the East Buttress of middle be equipped with stainless steel replica strap hangers? Bolt ladders on the Nose set up in period stainless? I am working on an all stainless rappel set up for the upcoming 50th anniversary of the Nose. Replica Bill "Dolt" Feurer double hole hangers and welded 1/2" stainless chain! I just have to figure out a good process to blacken stainless if any metalheads are out there.
I hope this answers your questions. This is all about process and I value everyone's input especially anchorites like yourself.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
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Very cool ideas, Steve. I was agreeing with Karl about placing pins and drilling at the same time, but I think that you are right in your sense of preserving the feel of clipping into a fixed pin. There have been other comments on the issue of the difference between bolts versus fixed pins on ST in the past. Aside from the need to reset fixed pin and the inability to check the condition of a bolt, there was always a difference in moving towards a bolt that was visible versus a hidden fixed pin.
However, I am trying to think of fixed pin placements where there may not be an adequate corner wall to fix the bolt to--a degree of memory that I no longer process.
Roger
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Steve
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
"Karl- This is all about original flavor which is to say maintaining appearance and mystery. Fixed pins are much more subtle than shiny bolts which are usually placed out in the optimal spot with respect to perceived rope travel and hence more noticeable from near or far. When I think back to climbing the first pitch of Space Babble, the three fixed pins were such a joy once you discovered them up tucked into each ear of rock along the way."
Sounds like a fine idea to me.
"The crux Leeper buttonhead is virtually invisible from below and doesn't really show itself until you are at the last pin."
I've looked up at that thing, squinting to see the pins and unable to spot the bolt. Maybe you'll guide me up it!
"The protection really spurred me along and I would love to preserve that delightful sense of urgent exploration for future enthusiasts. Topos do enough to dispel adventure. A line of four modern bolts would be a very different experience even though the fall potential would essentially remain the same.
I just happen to have a big attachment to this particular route. "
Agreed on those aesthetics. It's a beautiful thing to love a route and serve it.
"I hope this answers your questions. This is all about process and I value everyone's input especially anchorites like yourself."
I think it's great stuff Steve and welcome it. The question is whether this high standard of care can become the expected norm, or merely the standard of excellance practiced by those with the time, money, effort and care to value it enough to modify the gear, glue, and need for various sizes in order to fit placements.
That would be great. As a lazy person, I'm afraid many routes wouldn't get worked on if this was the case, but hey, I know folks who work on routes and rebolt and they aren't lazy people. They take pride in their work.
And as it sits, those folks are mostly staying on the community-safe side of dealing with the fixed pin issue, either leaving pin placements empty without a bolt nearby, or replacing critical fixed pins with more fixed pins.
So it seems like a step forward and a clear enough statement regarding avoiding the slipperly slope of more bolting, that pin placement issues can be resolved without losing ground on any bolting standards.
peace and thanks
Karl
Edit:
What's your take on fixed angle placements? I was thinking of the fixed angle on the crux of East Buttress or El Cap. It was there for many years and eventually fell out. It was replaced by a bolt with Steck's approval (afterwards) but later chopped. It's possible to use modern gear to protect this move, which is twice as hard as any other on the climb, but the solutions are a hassle and less than ideal, needing special gear or climbing up to downclimb.
This is just an example but if replacing fixed pins with enduring pin/bolt solutions catches on, these issues will come up and it's good to discuss that in advance?
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Steve: Is your idea to place solid anchors that look like pins, but are actually bolts, and would be placed in the same locations as the original pitons? That looks to be the case - quite intriguing.
Stainless steel seems invariably shiny, and I'm not sure how you can get around that. Paint is pretty temporary.
Chouinard pins were generally a brown/black, except bongs. So they blend in very well, especially with a bit of rust, and maybe some sand/pine needles for camouflage. Likewise Leeper hangers. The SMC hangers were shiny stainless (or plated?), as were the SMC pins, but the latter at least were less common. Most of the homemade hangers were aluminum, often fairly blocky - so they stand out more.
As for anchorites - well, who'd've thunk the thread would drift into a discussion of asceticism?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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This is a question of holding the center as the edges gyrate through time is it not? The questions are still fresh.....
Karl- I don't have the capability to form angles just yet but somebody at BD could likely be enticed into a run of stainless baby angles which could be notched and epoxied in place neatly. To pursue the pinbolt option on an angle shape you would have to square up and fill the area adjacent to the eye so that a hole could be drilled through sufficient steel to allow a 5/16" or larger stainless cap screw. Twist shearing might force you into thicker plate stock and a heavier overall finished shape and profile. The challenge would be keeping theft down by making the installation conspicuously intentional and yet unobtrusive. I would love to have a run of stainless steel Lost Arrows but I don't think anybody could resist the urge to snag such a shiny prize. I plan on stamping some date info and the word "fixed pinbolt" in plain sight on the blades.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2006 - 07:14pm PT
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Steve, there are lots of different stainless steels to choose from. I don't know enough about them to give an exact reference, but maybe another ST camper can help.
410 grades have a mild surface corrosion--rust--that might take the shine off your hardware without causing pitting. Also 'rouging' occurs in most stainless steels in certain environments. Rouging discolors the surface--rust--without affecting the resistance to pitting. Also the surface finish has a big impact on the surface corrosion--in stainless steels, shiny surfaces are more resistant to corrosion, but in the absence of pitting there is no lose of integrity.
Anyone a metallurgists?
Roger
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Steve, Kevin: You may want to donate one of the pinbolts to Ken for the museum. Which may save him "acquiring" it by other means.... :-)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I had a bried talk with Ron about Space Babble a number of years back. Told him it was a shame that more folks couldn't get on the route. He was OK with adding bolts at the time and considered doing it himself, but I was lazy and didn't want to start a fuss or a slippery slope, and I didn't know how to get ahold of you either.
Fixing the anchors and having some pro where the FA had pins would be a good compromise. Ron seems to still visit that face traverse (or at least he's filmed it in detail for "Ascending Rhythmn" (Highly recommended) and I bet he'd be stoked to go play.
I remember the 5.10 and 5.9 pitches being pretty solid and the wall pretty clean. You might survive a 100 foot fall up there if the belay was Ok.
Peace
karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Kevin and Buzz, the prototypes shown are a mild grade 3/16" stainless and I have not had a chance to performance test them. To be absolutely clear to everyone involved in retrobolting anywhere, under any circumstance, the bolts and hangers definitely have to be stainless steel for reasons of longevity. The material overkill on the Leeper replica and pinbolts gives me every confidence in their lasting integrity and strength.
As I mentioned earlier, coloring the metal is something I am still working out. The simple fact that no rust would be generated is a huge advantage of stainless. Chromoly steel pitons all suffer from stress fracturing and for that reason, will not yield a pinbolt with the same service life as an all stainless assembly.
One other installation option for the pinbolts that comes to mind if the rock is exceptionally good would involve driving the pinbolt, marking a hole, removing or shifing it away from the hole, and installing a 3/8" stainless drop in type anchor. This type of anchor requires a shallow 1/2" hole and relies on a setting tool to expand the back of the threaded insert left behind. The pitonbolt would then be pounded back into position and the 3/8" cap screw installed once the holes realign.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Jorge, Kev,
I have done Jigsaw now three times. The first was with you two.
Being the relative Middle novice at the time (I must thank you both for opening my eyes to Middle and inviting me to participate on some awesome climbs) you guys would give me the "privilege" of leading a lot of the pitches. I remember feeling like a guinea pig...With a smirk on your faces you would say, "Here you go Chappy, your lead!" I got to lead that last 5.11 pitch among others. You guys had been up there before and wandered somewhere up and left and then back right and wanted to do a more direct finish. The variations joined up at a broken knife blade at the last 5.10 section. I believe the second time was with you Kev along with John Middendorf?? We were making an attempt on that line up the middle of the N. Face. Wasn't that when you climbed that last pitch variation on a TR? John couldn't do the 5.11 and led the pitch via the original line. Or so I remember...We climbed that awesome 10a corner for the first time on that attempt. I went up there with Shaggy as well making another attempt on that same face ("Jason and the Largonots") Jay led that 5.11 section on our ascent (as well as most of the other pitches). I couldn't do the crux...I was pissed. I had these really mushy Huecos on and they would just melt off the little crux bead you had to stand on. Give me some stiff shoes!! I remember being a little impressed by what we did all those years ago. We got pretty far before being stopped by a somewhat blank section below an arching corner/roof. There were some mysterious bolts up above. Who placed them and how I don't know. Fun times back then...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Hey Mark,
That crux sequence on Jigsaw was only rated 5.10d if I remember correctly and stopped me cold. I recall a spooky Clevenger hanger and being totally unable to leave the narrow ledge that it was placed from despite trying every trick in the book with my feet. It is still on my list busted blades and all.
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Steve,
Howdy! Its been a while. Its hard to remember everything from those days. I do, however, remember being impressed with your no chalk ascents. To tell you the truth I don't remember what we rated it back then. Are you thinking of the variation that we did to the right or the original route up to the ledge on the left?? I like your ideas on preserving the original look and feel of a routes such as S.B. It sounds like a labor of love but some routes are worth it.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve,
Your SS pinbolts are interesting and beautiful, but probably quite difficult to install (on Space Babble p1 + higher) to meet your goals of protection that visually blends with the rock.
1. To minimize visible metal, you want to have the pins driven up to the eye under the flakes, right? You may need to manufacture a large number of lengths and thicknesses to accomplish this, since the cracks will vary.
2. A key assumption is that the crack under the flake is in the same plane as the rock surface below the flake, so that the piton head will lie flat against the rock. If this is not the case, and the piton sticks out from the rock, the bolt portion will be visible and will not look nice.
Personally, I think you could accomplish the desired minimum visual impact by using Petzl Coeur hangers in the spots where the piton eyes would be. They have similar dimensions to the eye of the CMI replica you made.
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Dec 13, 2006 - 05:30pm PT
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Hi Mark-
I remember that attempt with you and Kevin on Middle. I was in awe of climbing with some of my Yosemite Heroes. We planned to spend a couple days up there, and hauled bags up the slabs. But then we spent the night up there on some bushy ledge, and I got eaten by mosquitoes all night, and was a sleepless mess by morning. I think we bailed early on day 2, thinking we would stock up on mossie repellant and try it again later. Ah well...
During that climb, I remember looking over at El Cap with its clean hauls and mosquito free bivys, and longing for it. But it was great to climb with you guys! It helped me see what was possible, and kicked me into gear for one-day ascents!
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chappy
Social climber
ventura
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Dec 13, 2006 - 08:07pm PT
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John,
Good to hear from you! That was a fun little adventure. Its flattering you think so highly of Kevin and I. We were just like you and so many others who followed, just living the Valley life. We were lucky to be there at a happening time in the Valleys history. I always felt like a lightweight on our attempt. I didn't really push myself. I think by that time I had seen better days as a climber!I still think that line would be a good one. Sort of surprised no one has done it. It sure looked like it might all go free. As I mentioned I did go back with Shaggy and reclimbed to the top of that cool pinnacle and then we attempted the cleaner looking variant to the right. Shaggy was on the sharp end for pretty much everything. We(he!)got shutdown by a blank (though not necessarily impossible) section. Never made it to those clean corners that take you up to the N. Face traverse ledges. And then there were those mysterious bolts... Don't know what's up with them. Some great new climbing potential up there unless someones done it. Who knows maybe someone will chime in about it. Hey, anyway all the best to you and I will keep an eye out for your S.Taco comments.
Mark
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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Classic shot of Middle Rock.
Two views of the beautiful rust colored shield on the East Buttress bolt ladder crux pitch. This pitch at 5.10c is a full value onsight and rather devious!
Starting the long traverse pitch midway up the EB in the early 70's. Stylish hats were somehow more common in the old days!
The Central Pillar Of Frenzy with its classic second pitch overhang.
Here's a rarity for you Middle freaks! Any body ever do the direct start to the CPOF? Pete Livesey's original baby blue topo guide to Yosemite Valley has the pitch rated at 5.11d and my memory is that it was very hard and a real thriller.
Movin' and groovin' on the clean stone.
About thirty feet short of the belay was a fixed wedge Lost Arrow in a tiny corner which protected the right angling crux traverse. My partner, Rich Thompson, took all these pictures and was in the habit of foregoing belay concerns for a better photo opportunity. He was well away from the base when I took a twenty five foot whipper onto the lonely Arrow. Not much else around for pro so the fall was a hard one and Rich got hauled through the rocks to his proper belaying spot. I managed to make the moves on the second go and continued on up.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2006 - 12:14am PT
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I did it too (direct start), but I cheated, I used a top rope. Kevin and Steve you trying to kill me with those crazy ass leads on Middle?
On a serious note though you guys did some beautiful leads, thanks.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 25, 2006 - 12:55pm PT
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Just trying to blow a little air up your skirt Maestro Braun, that's all!
Kevin, I get the impression that the Bird didn't really care for this dicey face stuff. Do you remember anything about the creation of the blue Livesey topo guide? That's way back in time but I always was fascinated that an outsider would go to that kind of effort. Happy holidays everybody and more mantle insurance for all!
The scolding from AM is truely funny considering he came from Groundfall central.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 25, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
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I have a copy buried somewhere and I bet the C4 notebook was the basis for it. I wonder if Pete pinched it?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 25, 2006 - 10:32pm PT
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From the shots included here, "Jigsaw" (5.11a) and "Black Primo" (5.11b) are obviously great lines. Looked 'em up in the Reid Yosemite Climbs: Free Climbs and noticed on p. 295 that they both only have one quality star. How so? Is it because the 1/4 bolts are bad? Always heard from word of mouth that both routes were ultimates of their type and angle. It seems as though bolt-protected face climbs are consistently assigned lower quality ratings than cracks. Bias?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 26, 2006 - 12:39pm PT
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Kinda like "my best vacation is your worst nightmare!"
I wonder if Donny has done most of the Middle Rock testpieces? Out of curiosity, how many stars does Rainbow Bridge muster?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 26, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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One star, page 286 of the Reid Yo Free Climbs (1994). Remember that Cantwell, S. Burke and I fell for the better part of an afternoon before C. Cantwell finally got the crux section up to the belay near dusk. 40 lead falls?
TRed the direct on CP of F once. Didn't seem that bad on TR, but thinking about a lead put it in a class by itself as far as sheer terror was concerned. 11d with a bolt and a long fall is one thing. 11d with a grounder is "quite another kettle of fish, Ollie," to quote Oliver Hardy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2006 - 01:56pm PT
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Rainbow Bridge seemed like a fine route (I had to bail at the last bolt) but probably loses points for having a crux that's all out of proportion with the rest of the climb.
Maybe if that last bolt was beefy enough for folks to feel safe about belaying from, folks could climb it as a 'moderate' 5.11 while they wait in the line for Central Pillar
Peace
Karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 26, 2006 - 02:06pm PT
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Karl: RB has been a vue flashed (unless climbers are all liars).
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 26, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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Black Primo and Jigsaw are both 5 star, and I don't know sh#t about face or slab climbing.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 26, 2006 - 03:19pm PT
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Sorry, I meant Stan Laurel.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 26, 2006 - 06:01pm PT
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Bruce wrote
"Karl: RB has been a vue flashed (unless climbers are all liars)."
Bruce, I was just referring to the "quality" rating. It'd be a good quality route with a short approach for mid-5.11 climbers if it weren't for the final crux. I don't doubt that a fine climber could flash it, that's what tends to happen when a route is new or a cliimb is "in style"
RB is past both those qualification and so it just sits there even though it has a 5 minute approach. Most folks who could do it aren't interested at this point.
A Vue flashed? Is that like "French Flashing" (one of my specialites!)
peace
Karl
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 27, 2006 - 01:51am PT
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Yes, you have to be led to the base with a sack tied over your head and no one can give you verbal beta in advance. Best to spend the previous night standing on your head in the C4 bathroom.
I get the feeling that that 5.11d rating for "Rainbow Bridge" is probably a bit stingy, too.
Just wondering outloud, but just how many ascents has "Black Primo" had over the years? Seems like that crux pitch is a must-do for anyone who wants to extend the "Great Tradition" of face climbing in the Ditch. Are there such individuals around anymore? Maybe that's why the "Shining" is still unrepeated.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 29, 2006 - 12:18pm PT
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The Shining, hmmm, isn't that JB's testpiece on the Footstool of all places? No repeat still? That's amazing at this point in history. No takers for such a bonafide thriller?
John mentioned that route way back as something he really wanted to photograph somebody on and asked if I was interested in giving it a go. When I asked him, "John, how hard is it really?" and got a wider than usual smile to accompany the standard "Oh, not too bad," I knew that he might be handing me a snake in a can.
Should have gone for it anyhow! The same question about the Bachar-Yerian in those days got you an "Oh, not too bad, 10c, 10d." So I came to know that the numbers were not relevant and that I had to pay attention to other indicators when trying to ferret out reliable beta from Maestro Bachar. Might just have to dust off my Sailin' Shoes and head on up there for old times sake!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 29, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
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No, the "Shining" (5.12c) is Scott Burke's 1988 route in the Royal Arches Area (Reid, Yo Free Climbs, p. 178). Says 5.12c, but I see a 5.12d pitch on the topo. Oh well, you'll have to go up there and see for yourself.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 29, 2006 - 04:56pm PT
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Understarred face climbs?
Bruce's comment about the understarred face climbs like Jigsaw and Black Primo made me curious. Here is a list of some of the mostly and * face/slab climbs in Reid's 1994 guidebook:
El Cap
 General Dynamics 5.13a ** R
Armageddon 5.10d R
The Promise 5.11b * R
The Believer 5.12a * R
The Bluffer 5.11a *
Champagne on Ice 5.11d ** R
Submen 5.11b * R
El Matador 5.12a ** R
Burden of Dreams 5.12b **
Never Say Dog 5.11b **
The Big Juan 5.12b **
Golden Years 5.12a ** (I heard a hold broke on the crux p3 traverse pitch recently)
Royal Arches / Arches Terrace
Firefingers 5.11b **
Poker Face 5.10b **
The Shining 5.12c ** R
The Rambler 5.10d ** R
Shaky Flakes 5.11a * R
Mid-Life Crisis 5.10 **
Greasy but Groovy 5.10d * R/X
Crest Jewel 5.10a ***
Mt. Watkins
Escape From Freedom 5.11c A1 (maybe unstarred because it was relatively new? although The Chief and Southern Belle get *** and have not been done much, either; a tricky problem for guidebook authors to deal with)
Golden Dawn 5.10d
Half Dome
Dome Polishers 5.9 ** R
Snake Dike 5.7 *** R
Dreamscape 5.11+ **
The Fast Lane 5.11+ ** R
Autobahn 5.11+ ** R
Karma 5.11d A0
Glacier Point Apron
Wild at Heart 5.12b **
Dead Baby 5.11b **
Grack Marginal 5.9 *** R
Misty Beethoven 5.10d *** R
Hall of Mirrors 5.12c *** R
Goodrich Right Side 5.9 *** R
Zoner 5.11b **
Cold Fusion 5.10a **
Point Beyond 5.8 **
Angel's Approach 5.9 ***
Anchors Away 5.11a ***
Sailin' Shoes 5.10d **
The Token 5.11d ** R/X
Green Dragon 5.11b *** R/X (not R/X; definitely not at the crux)
Middle Cathedral
Space Babble 5.11a R *
Tour de Force 5.12b R *
Rainbow Bridge 5.11d *
Stoner's Highway 5.10c ***
Pulsing Pustules 5.11c *
Pieces of Eight 5.10c * R
Paradise Lost 5.10a * R
Direct North Buttress 5.10b ***
Middle Cathedral Apron
Ramer 5.10c ***
Jigsaw 5.11a * R
Black Primo 5.11b * R
Road to Ruin 5.12a **
Ticket to Nowhere 5.11c *** R
Quicksilver 5.9 *** R
Walk of Life 5.10+ * R
Freewheelin' 5.10b *** R
Stupid Pet Tricks 5.10b **
Bottom Feeder 5.10a *
Cat Dancing 5.10a **
Orange Peel 5.11b ** R
Exodus 5.10b * R
Tapestry 5.9 * R/X
Five O'clock Shadow 5.9 X
Home Run 5.10d *
Tears of Joy 5.10a *
Mother Earth 5.11c A4 **
Teacher's Pet 5.12a *
That'll Teach You 5.12a *
Smith-Crawford 5.11d **
Crazy 5.11d **
If there is constructive criticism to be made, one good way is to send a list of the climbs you've done to Don Reid, with the star ratings you think they should get.
If it helps, I couldn't find a definition of "what the stars mean". But I suppose you could construct one statistcally; perhaps * are supposed to be in the top 5% of routes in terms of quality (possibly hard to define exactly) or popularity. Maybe are 85-95% and * are 70-85%? One of the difficulties with assigning stars is routes which are new or rarely done - maybe they should get something like a ?* rating; the stars are unknown, and it would be nice if they were not seen as being in the same category as the lower quality routes.
One star system explanation that I like (from Traprock) is:
*** exceptional in nature due to some memorable combination of moves, length, exposure, difficulty, and aesthetic appeal.
** very good but lacking that essential ingredient which would make it outstanding.
* only average in quality but still worth doing.
(no stars) ranges from average to poor in quality and is not worth doing by someone with limited time.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 31, 2006 - 03:49pm PT
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I finally unearthed my guidebooks to assist my recollection! The route that I was thinking of is The Promise if I am not mistaken. The Shining sounds way out of my league!
Scott's route on Middle, Pieces of Eight, should have seen some repeats by now. I think he refitted it and replaced the 5/16" Taperbolts, so it should be solid enough. Any takers out there?
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Dec 31, 2006 - 06:26pm PT
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Don't know the particulars, but I think the Promise has been repeated. Not so, "The Shining". Sure has a nice position on that wall, but 5.12d micros sounds a little hard on the tips. Have also heard that the cruxes are run-out.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 31, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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Steve wrote:
> Scott's route on Middle, Pieces of Eight, should have seen some repeats by now
I think you meant Tour de Force as Scott Burke's "hard" (5.12) route on Middle. I recall hearing that Steve Schneider tried to repeat it, but didn't get up it. Pieces of Eight, FA by Scott Burke and Steve Schneider, is much more moderate (5.10).
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Kevin wrote:
> Is Tour de Force the route that starts just left of the BW? Always looked at that before it got done.
Yes - there's a nice topo in the 1994 Reid guide. p1 is rated 5.11d and looks quite steep in the rounded dishes. p3 is supposed to be 5.12b gastonning.
> Howbout Yabobabble to the left of SB, anyone ever continue that up to the KB? I think maybe Yabo started that with Graham? Nice and steep over there.
I have seen a few bolts over there - some directly under the Kor-Beck, and also at least one visible if you rap directly from p2 of Space Babble to the ground. It is shown in my modified topo just above an arch. I don't know if it's been connected to SB.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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I remember that route next to SB but I’m vague on the beginnings of it. First went up there with Kauk and later took Moffatt. I got a ways up it, I remember there wasn’t much to hang on to. That was so long ago we were still in EB’s surely its been finished with all the boot advancements and all.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I haven't seen Burke for awhile, but he told me that "Pieces of Eight" was a great route but that he regretted making it so run-out that people don't do it. He said that, with the conditions of the bolts, that it would be madness for anyone to head up there now.
It's my understanding some service minded folks might have started replacing the old-bad bolts, but I didn't hear that the project got finished so beware or find out if you head up "Pieces of Eight"
Peace
Karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I ran into Scott back in 99 and asked him about the face climbing scene. My comments about the bolt replacement on Pieces Of Eight are not definitive so beware unless you get confirmation from the mouth of the Burke himself. Those old Taperbolts are crap for sure!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Kevin, I came across the topo that you drew from memory circa 1977 of Space Babble and Mother Earth on a page in my old Meyer's guide. All was mysterious up there for me back when you passed on the treasure map and I started scheming on me own share of the riches!
Vis a vis Pieces Of Eight, I posted some info on Taperbolt extraction on BFTWM for information sake.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The "5.10 up&down" and "Leap or 5.12" on the Mother Earth topo are absolutely classic! Wasn't that 5.12 section "the hardest moves that I've done on rock" to quote Kauk after he did it statically? I just noticed that neither comment made it into the Yellow Meyer's guide topo. Donny, you checking this out?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 18, 2007 - 11:03pm PT
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A few shots of Greasy But Groovy located on the obvious clean slab below the main Royal Arch.
Fig starting up the opening pitch.
Fig following the second pitch.
Pondering the thirty foot runout up the wave to the hole on pitch three.
Into the hole at last!
Well Largo, by me footwear, I'll be havin' yer hat! But since we didn't do the fourth pitch, perhaps one of those fashionable period sport headbands might do. A superb route and next on my list to refit and restore unless there are any objections?
Cheers
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2007 - 08:33pm PT
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For your consideration folks, allow me to introduce the Space Station. An all stainless steel system designed for remote, high use belay/rappel anchors. Central to its design is the welded master link which offers the equivalent of a 3/4" round wear profile. The hangers are an adaptation of an old Dolt three hole hanger design placed low on the Nose while he was involved in the project. Thickened by 1/16" in all dimensions, the design happens to work out perfectly. Clip, relax, babble a bit......
Note the half link welded in as a wear bar. Sectioning chain produces lots of half links which can be used to produce a 100+ year anchor if configured as shown. With all the effort involved in replacing remote anchors we should all be thinking in terms of anchor lifespan. Here is one possibility in prototype.
Here is the Dolt original and my adaptation.
Any concerns about using this system for the proposed descent line?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 25, 2007 - 08:35pm PT
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I'll belay and rap off it any day.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 25, 2007 - 08:41pm PT
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Steve: The scale of your photo is unclear, but with the number of links shown, I'd be concerned that in many rock types, the two bolts would be too close together. With anything less than solid and unfractured rock, it could get marginal.
The classic alpine dilemma - more gear facilitates climbing, but its weight may hinder it.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Feb 25, 2007 - 10:11pm PT
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Kevin, I am trying to carve out a month to work on a couple of projects. Let me know your schedule and I'll make it work.
Anders, this is a single prototype with a chain link size that allows a neat 8" equilateral triangle. This particular chain is a little high in iron content but clearly shows the design intent. More readily available 1/2" stainless chain has a shorter link length and will result in a larger spread with five and five on either side of the master link. This system is extendable in either direction to increase the hole spread.
I was thinking of the Nose and a nice clean solid anchor that lasts for a long time and arrived at this one. Lots of tweaking is possible.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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No worries about GBG Kevin, I have other plans for you..... Has anyone done Reefer Madness that crosses GBG. I don't think 5.10 slab climbing, even with the old crusty rusties, should be enough to load up my grampers just yet!
I can hopefully entice you to check the lovely slab climbing on the Captain's toe, my #2 project after SB!
Here is the Meyers guide for the area around GBG.
RM seems like a viable way to get at the upper pitches of GBG. I would like to finish the rest of the route above the end of pitch 3 anyway.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve,
I did Reefer Madness, about 20 years ago. It is not too bad. I led the 5.10c which has the runout on 5.8. My partner led the 5.10d, and ripped small flakes off several times, but never fell. My one attempt on Greasy But Groovy ended where p3 steepens and there was no bolt. I'm "fluff".
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Clint- thanks for the info on Reefer Madness. Is the climbing on that one high quality? Would you be interested in refitting GBG and/or Reefer Madness this spring? I would like to finish GBG above the third pitch and update the anchors with 3/8" SMC hangers on protection bolts and possibly Space Stations at the belay/rappel stations. Largo or Ricky, any interest, opinions or concerns with what I just proposed anchorwise?
Kevin- I think that you will appreciate the quality stone on the Toe. No worries, the free blast will get to most of the pitches fairly easily from above so no lead stress on old steel or otherwise required to check it out. First things first on SB and perhaps the Central Pillar Direct Start? Stoner's Highway to get in the groove first, of course.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve, I'm not sure how to rate the quality of Reefer Madness. I don't think it was dirty. Just unpopular due to the one runout. I'd be happy to help replace bolts on Reefer Madness and GBG.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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I'm all for replacing the bolts on GBG. I suspect the route rarely if ever gets done these days, and considering how much water comes down that face and how old those bolts are (30 years??), as is the route is probably unclimbable (that is, if you want any pro). I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bolts came out under body-weight so if you go up there Steve I'd assume the worst. The route never gets real steep but because there are fall possibilities directly onto the belay (in a few places), I'd want to make sure you had some pretty burly anchors for those bits. I think most if not all of those anchors were off short quarter inch bolts, some of them drilled with a #14 instead of the regualar #12 drill -- that's all we had and so some of the bolts were loose to begin with. None of this is good. The only way that route will ever live again is to retrobolt the whole thing. With new bolts and sticky shoes I wouldn't be surprised if it's 5.11a, possibly even 10d. But exciting.
I remember being over there another time with Kevin W. who was way up there on one of those hideious John Edgar run outs on - what route was that? Man, that looked fatal up there and I was just glad it was Kevin and not me.
JL
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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KW, You were up too high for me to see what the holds were like but it appeared to be hard climbing looked like you were easily sixty feet out at one point. I can still see in my mind's eye yo uup there on the skyline, whimpering and moving slowly. Of course you made it because you were the man.
JL
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Hey Largo, while you are here. GBG pics bring back any more memories from the FA? Glad to hear that the bolts are shorties. Easy in, easy out! I think you will appreciate the beef that I plan on leaving behind!
Out of curiousity, did you do the Mouth to Perhaps way back when?
Clint, you're on for GBG. Let me know your availablility in May-June if you have constraints. Nice to get on this before the reflector oven gets going full tilt.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Hey Largo, while you are here. GBG pics bring back any more memories from the FA? Glad to hear that the bolts are shorties. Easy in, easy out! I think you will appreciate the beef that I plan on leaving behind!
Out of curiousity, did you do the Mouth to Perhaps way back when?
--
I have a bunch of bolting gear I could probably send you if you're up for the job. That's no small job, either. There's probably at 30 some odd bolts on the GBG if you take it all the way to the "Tree of Leaves" at the top. Though easier, the upper pitches are very clean and very run out but you're so dialed into that kind of climbing by then 5.9 feels like 5.0.
And yes, Ricky Accomazzo, Fig (Mike Brittenback--sp??) and I did Mouth to Perhaps. Now that's got a king sized run out on the first hard pitch, very sketchy in the old shoes. Naturally, Ricky flashed it.
JL
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rmuir
Social climber
the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Ricky and I did an early repeat of Reefer Madness, maybe the first year that thing was put up. My memories of that route are nearly non-existent, but Ricky too confirms (via e-mail) that we share a (vague) collective recollection of doing that thing.
My only surviving neuron from that era, when fired, reminds me of how remarkably sore both my tips and toes were during that last pitch. Too much edging, and the same little crimpers move after move, pitch after pitch...
Like they say, "If you remember the Sixties, you probably weren't there." ...same thing for the Seventies, too. (Maybe true, but I really can't recall.)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So if Kevin and Steve do some climbs, will they automatically be worralled-class? Or will they be like gross, man?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Largo- the yellow Meyers guide doesn't have you in the FA list for MTP. I had a feeling that you were involved somehow. I posted a description of that nasty runout on the Accomazzo Wall thread a while back. Did you see it? I was curious if my memory was accurate on the crux section.
Tree of Leaves here I come!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nice write up of Mouth to Perhaps, Steve. That really was a route that downright dangerous. I vaguely remember the second pitch (after the crux friction bit) as also being hard. Man, that's way back there.
JL
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve, I'm available all of May and for June up until the 13th at least.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Cool, let me coordinate this whole show and I'll get back to you soon with some firm dates.
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ol one eye
Trad climber
south lake tahoe,ca
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Wow, people actually have climbed Reefer Madness? I thought that thing would be ignored, sitting next to more famous routes.
Fred and I only went up there with the promise of pipeloads. A day on the rock , no worries, honey oilers - what could be better. But somehow we got snookered into the lead. I guess those bolts might have been far apart. But, not having placed too many of those buggers, and figuring there was some so cal- suicide rock tradition to live up to, I just kept climbing.I do remember a lot of flakes popping. Still ,it was fun. I'll bet those bolts are mank now.
And hi kevin. How have you been?
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder
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Kevin is an Icon.
We need recent photos of you man!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Kevin, you've got to get set up with a good scanner that has a slide attachment. The whole process is a little complicated but worth the thrashing about once the gold pours onto the screen! You have probably got a treasure trove of images just like I do all the way to the back of beyond, so break stash fella!
Besides, the really old images are starting to fade so burning them now is crucial before you lose too much color and clarity.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 8, 2007 - 12:35pm PT
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Hey Kevin, the easiest was to digitize old pictures is to take some to a photo processing store and have them converted and loaded onto a disc. It gets you started and allows you to get a better idea of what you would want if you purchased a scanner and photo editing software.
On the other hand, you could just get some Crayons and draw old climbing scenes on you PC screen. It works best if you draw them backwards, so that we can see them properly from this side. That's what I have heard anyway.
This new technology is hard to master.
Best, Roger
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Yo Kevin.... if you have some snapshots that you want to share all quick style.. just take a picture of them with your digi camera. I took this one of a polaroid on my wall. Not too bad on the quality and fast.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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Something I was searching for led me back to this old thread. Great stories and pictures (such as the one of Russ above)ranging all over the place.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 13, 2009 - 07:15pm PT
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Back into the Middle of the action! This is the first thread that really lit my fuse about the historical potential of the ST campfire!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 27, 2009 - 02:35am PT
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Still burning...bump!
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Kevin Worrall and Middle Cathedral bump . . . excellent Valley history lessons. Get yer steep slab on!
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Les
Trad climber
Bahston
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wow, I'm so not worthy, but man it's been a real treat to read this thread from start to finish. You guys must have had custom-made pants to fit yer ballz in 'em!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Big fun on small holds...It just don't get mo betta!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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In May, when Rik Rieder and I returned to the Valley for the Sacherer remembrance, our first stop was the base of the NE face of Middle Cathedral Rock. Throwing caution to the wind, we kicked steps to the top of the snow cone at the base of the “Central Pillar of Frenzy” and chatted with the climbers waiting to climb.
Then we walked along the base to the DNB where I discovered that I can no longer look up and walk without falling on my face—no pictures were allowed of my inglorious, blood-drawing sprawl. However, the view from my supine position wasn't so bad.
Rik re-enacted the opening moments of the 70s climbing on Middle when he soloed up the first bit of “Paradise Lost,” the route that started it all for our generation of Middle climbers.
It felt great to be back in the Valley and touching Middle rock. It still looked so inviting and deceptively low angle and highly featured.
I understand that all of the routes on Middle, except maybe the Sacherer-Fredericks, have had all bolts replaced. "Paradise Lost" is a good introduction.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Rik- How did you manage to talk Ray into getting up on PL?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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Steve, I don't mean to speak for Rik, but Ray always said, "I got us into trouble, Rik got us out."
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> I understand that all of the routes on Middle, except maybe the Sacherer-Fredericks, have had all bolts replaced.
Getting close, but not quite - it's a big rock!
The (2 belay) bolts on Sacherer-Fredericks were replaced by Erik Strom in 2003:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/rep/036ysacf.txt
Still to be replaced (as I understand it):
a couple of rusty 3/8" belay bolts on Space Babble
Tour de Force (taper bolts; should be pretty good)
Central Pillar of Frenzy extension, belay bolts at top of p8
Pieces of Eight, top of p6 and maybe p5
Paradise Lost, all replaced by Roger in May, except a couple he missed up high (on p7?)
Ho Chi Minh Trail, one on p1 var start, one on p10
North Buttress, p15 (probably still original), the p11 bolt was added in the 80s/90s
Mother Earth, p11 bolt ladder, anchor bolts on p12 and p16.
Smith-Crawford, p7-12
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Any idea who put up that pointless bolted start to the first forty feet of the Powell-Reed?
How many bolts on the direct start to the Central Pillar at present? I saw at least one recently.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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2406. Pulsing Pustules FA: Brian Bennett, Norman Boles, 7/1991
Cool idea on the direct start to Stoner's. I bet Chad would be psyched to establish that on lead.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 26, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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The unfortunate pitch in question is a sideways bolt ladder that reaches a point about forty feet up the first pitch of the Powell-Reed.
I like the original start to Stoners. Don't give these folks any ideas or you will get a half dozen half pitch variations to muck everything up.
People are willing to put in some pretty foolish routes these days, take a look next time you are up there.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 26, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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So, has anyone lead the CPOF direct start with the two new bolts?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 26, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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I haven't led it, but I rappelled it a few years ago. :)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 26, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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New only in the sense that they weren't there when I did the direct start. I didn't see the second bolt last time I walked up there but the first was easy to spot.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 22, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
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skating on stilts
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Bump for Primo face climbing stories...
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hashbro
Trad climber
Mental Physics........
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Jan 22, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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Bumping for more tidbits and recollections of this fantastic era.
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Port
Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
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Jan 22, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
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Climbed with Kevin in San Diego Co when he was just establishing Eagle Peak. Had no idea who he was at the time. Cool f*#king guy.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 22, 2015 - 02:34pm PT
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Throwing caution to the wind, we kicked steps to the top of the snow cone at the base of the “Central Pillar of Frenzy” and chatted with the climbers waiting to climb.
Roger, the first Grade V I ever attempted was the Chouinard-Pratt in April of 1971. Back then, Chouinard-Pratt was predominantly an aid climb, and the CPOF hadn't been done yet. We were so intimidated at the thought of being on a wall that climbing to the top of the moat scared us to death, and we ended up turning back low on the route. It turned out to be fortuitous, because it snowed that night and stormed for two more days.
Also, I, too, can't figure the purpose of those bolts near Powell-Reed. I remember when Stoner's Highway got put up, because I had just recently climbed Powell-Reed. At about the 500-foot level of Powell-Reed, the "fine route" (Roper's words) turned into about 100 feet of munge, with water dripping down it. I found it quite a bit more difficult than anything below, and I eventually resorted to some aid a bit higher, but there is a lot of beautiful rock near that route, and we thoroughly enjoyed Powell-Reed, munge and all.
John
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Jan 23, 2015 - 10:30am PT
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Clint wrote:
Getting close, but not quite - it's a big rock!
The (2 belay) bolts on Sacherer-Fredericks were replaced by Erik Strom in 2003:
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/rep/036ysacf.txt
Still to be replaced (as I understand it):
a couple of rusty 3/8" belay bolts on Space Babble
Tour de Force (taper bolts; should be pretty good)
Central Pillar of Frenzy extension, belay bolts at top of p8
Pieces of Eight, top of p6 and maybe p5
Paradise Lost, all replaced by Roger in May, except a couple he missed up high (on p7?)
Ho Chi Minh Trail, one on p1 var start, one on p10
North Buttress, p15 (probably still original), the p11 bolt was added in the 80s/90s
Mother Earth, p11 bolt ladder, anchor bolts on p12 and p16.
Smith-Crawford, p7-12
Wondering if this list has been updated since your post, Clint? Is the Paradise Lost p7 lead dodgy with the missed bolts, do you think?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
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more tales of Kevin Eleven
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 19, 2015 - 10:58pm PT
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there are days that being eleven would be truly wonderful...
but neither you nor I will ever be that again.
Thanks for the correction, Five Eleven Kevin...
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Feb 19, 2015 - 11:54pm PT
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Being 11 again now would be horrible. Worrying about what cell phone to get, listening to Katy Perry... If you ever went climbing, it'd be in a gym. You'd probably get childhood obesity and never end up climbing. Forget that!
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Feb 20, 2015 - 12:14am PT
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I have one and for that spawn I am so greatful,
adventures are just starting out, for the little
Monster,
no crap Muzak or top down power drilled high bolt count
Lines, OLD SCHOOL groundup it's up to us to bring 'em up right!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2015 - 03:44am PT
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Poetry of an age: It's actually Five Eleven Kevin. Ramon, the suave black bellman/coke dealer for years at the Ahwahnee named me that, and every time he saw me he'd get a big grin on his face and say "Five Eleven Kevin!" With the kind of rhythm only a brother can muster.
I would not want to be eleven again, but I would not mind being five eleven again if it denoted my skill.
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this just in
climber
Justin Ross from North Fork
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Feb 20, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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What a great thread, so much good stuff in here and cool to read your guys stories. Thank you. So glad you are apart of this forum The Warbler.
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youknow
Trad climber
W of the Pecos
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Jun 16, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
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Hey Kev, Hope you're okay. I'm living in the Lone Star State, temporarily. You know, N.
P.S. Who "outed" Ramon?? thought he was your friend. . .
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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Jun 16, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
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At one of Todd's get togethers.....
TY
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 23, 2017 - 09:46am PT
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Bump for tell it all tall tales...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
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Oct 15, 2018 - 02:39pm PT
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Sadly, CMAC & RJ have seen fit to vaporize all of Kevin Worrall's writings on the Supertopo forum.
Kevin always, to my knowledge, comported himself very well in his communication here on the forum, especially so on the controversial threads which got him banned and his entire retinue of posts deleted.
That's the part of it that just seems wrong: he rarely, if ever used foul language or invective. If so, then very, very rarely, but I never saw it. Certainly he was persistent with some of his views, which was his downfall, as I understand it.
CMAC and RJ don't make sense, from the standpoint of valuing historicity and respect for rational discourse.
Game over, for a metric ton of valuable stories, insight, and commentary, from one of the most valued members of our climbing community, Kevin Worrall.
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Trump
climber
|
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Oct 15, 2018 - 04:06pm PT
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Right? Kind of makes me wonder what I’m doing here. I might start jotting my fine thoughts down on toilet paper instead.
On the flip side, I’ll bet CMac and RJ know what they’re doing here. Sorry if we don’t like it while posting to their site.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Oct 15, 2018 - 05:14pm PT
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getting kicked off this place is a blessing
anyone with over 1,000 posts on this site should be kicked off immediately in my view
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Oct 15, 2018 - 05:19pm PT
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^you do understand that the internet is still largely anonymous (in the immediate sense, strictly speaking), right? throwaway accounts would just grow if that policy (or furtherance of the banhammer) were set in effect. ^
and yeah, agree with Roy: the Warbler was polemical but not overboard as far as I saw or knew. pretty silly to erase the historical and important recollections of action on rock that Worall contributed. That kinda thing is pretty much why I wanna be here talkin' to the old dogs.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Oct 15, 2018 - 05:19pm PT
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anyone with over 1,000 posts on this site should be kicked off immediately in my view
^ Do you know that was post 2,011 for you? ;-)
pretty silly to erase the historical and important recollections of action on rock that Worall contributed
I completely agree. I can think of quite a few posters who had valuable beta and historical content, who have been similarly booted. It's NOT a very clued in way to run a site imo, no matter who owns it or pays the electrical bills.
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Oct 15, 2018 - 05:22pm PT
|
Seems we have two threads discussing this.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
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Oct 15, 2018 - 05:58pm PT
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We do, John.
I posted the same thing to the Welcome to Kevin Worrall thread and the Warbler Appreciation thread, because I felt those were the appropriate places to make it clear, and establish a record that he had his posts, and with them the entirety of his historical contribution to Supertopo struck by the "moderators".
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 15, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
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doesn't it turns out most of the time its the banned person does it themselves
I don't know about "most of the time", but there have definitely been a few people who, while not banned, have either erased all their posts, or asked the ST gods to do that for them.
And I agree with those of you who are saying this should not be done. Or at least not done in climbing-related threads. No one really gives a rat's ass if you or I delete a bunch of stupid politard crap, but when you pull the plug on your contributions to climbing threads... Well, the message that sends to everyone else who contributed is: "F*#K YOU!!!"
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Oct 15, 2018 - 07:37pm PT
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ephemeral passage ... route name?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 15, 2018 - 07:48pm PT
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Two cents real quick.
Kev's a big boy. We all appreciated his historical input, but he darn well knew his BIG MOUTH might get him (and his contributions to climbing history) banned.
He's a big boy, just not too mature, I'm afraid. He ought to have used better judgement bout some of the things he said.
Words and actions have consequences. I hope some here learn that or their histories can be as easily erased, just like Warbler's.
Heck, maybe he'll write a book with all the free time away from TacoLand.
If you're lurking, Kev, you are a very good writer and should think about a book. I'd buy at least three copies myself.
Cheers, bud!
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:07pm PT
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It's most likely he asked for his posts to be deleted.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:18pm PT
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Aeriq! Thanks for speaking up & you too MFM!
I agree with Aeriq's post on the subject:
As much as I appreciate KW's contributions to the climbing community, he is like a pit-bull with his "men are superior to women" perspective.
It really left a bad and lasting impression for some of us, irregardless of his historical contributions.
I may be part of the politically-incorrect crowd here on occasion, but Kevin's incessant & seemingly compulsive bashing of women bothered the hell out of me. I was especially offended when he would not shut up on the thread that commended Crimpergirl on her recent accomplishments.
I appreciate his legendary climber status & I regret all his posts were deleted, but he is not mature enough to be a ST contributor.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:20pm PT
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What did he do? Post a dick pic? Because that is definitely private property violation.
internet bully is already fresident of usa so why not confront digital dicks of other and ofher variant?
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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he is not mature enough to be a ST contributor.
I could parse that, but instead I am only going to quote, because the richness of that quotation could not be lost on the dimmest person who has ever posted on this forum.
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WBraun
climber
|
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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Tami Knight, Crimpie and eKat are no longer here...wonder why?
That's because you guys are all a bunch of whiny pussies NOT men just whiny pussies .....
Muwahahaha .....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:41pm PT
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^^^^^^ Jajajajajajaja! Concur with Werner.
Never saw you down at the Meadow during the rescue yesterday, Werner. Were you there? Seems like a pretty good outcome all things considered.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:46pm PT
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Pete
I'm NOT rescue anymore, haven't been for a few years now .... way too old .... I been working on LEO vehicles now, upfit and maintenance ..
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WBraun
climber
|
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Oct 15, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
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LOL ... you just proved my point .....
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oct 15, 2018 - 09:00pm PT
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Too old???? You're never too old! [look at me]
Hey Werner, tell those LEO's to please enforce the speed limit down at the El Cap Bridge! Man, people come flying across there at like 50 mph. One of us is going to get hit soon....
Mucho peligroso, siiiiiiiii............
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 17, 2018 - 08:51am PT
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2 quotes from this thread standout:
Wayyyyyy up high back at the start Scuffy said:
"Great story, Kevin, keep em coming."
Ending with Tarbusters statement: "Sadly, CMAC & RJ have seen fit to vaporize all of Kevin Worrall's writings on the Supertopo forum.
Kevin always, to my knowledge, comported himself very well in his communication here on the forum, especially so on the controversial threads which got him banned and his entire retinue of posts deleted.
That's the part of it that just seems wrong: he rarely, if ever used foul language or invective. If so, then very, very rarely, but I never saw it. Certainly he was persistent with some of his views, which was his downfall, as I understand it.
CMAC and RJ don't make sense, from the standpoint of valuing historicity and respect for rational discourse.
Game over, for a metric ton of valuable stories, insight, and commentary, from one of the most valued members of our climbing community, Kevin Worrall. "
And Fritz, a little heads up to your blindside: you do the same thing as KW with your viewpoints. The difference is that you are much more self righteous in your views and your climbing contributions pale in comparison to this thread alone. That's doesn't mean I think you should be banned any more than Kevin who seemed like a good guy even whom I often found myself disagreeing with.
Take care all!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Oct 17, 2018 - 09:52am PT
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Naw, it's Mark, the original Blinny
edit-whoops my bad! Didn't sound like you Kat
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Oct 17, 2018 - 10:03am PT
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The administration of this site should just erase All old Time climbers!
I think history will put KW in his rightful place one day. With Warren, Robbins. Birdwell, Prat etc.
A loss for the few who still spend time here.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
|
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Oct 17, 2018 - 11:13am PT
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Kevin always, to my knowledge, comported himself very well in his communication here on the forum, especially so on the controversial threads which got him banned and his entire retinue of posts deleted.
Tar - from a woman's perspective, a barrage of misogynistic posits doesn't really fall under the category of comportment. Unless, I suppose, you belong to the Boy's Club - No Women Allowed sort of old school.
I agree that his trip reports had value, and am not sure why they would choose to wipe those away. Maybe they have a reason to NOT let the gender-bashing live on the site(advertisers have already told them once that they'd pull ad support, back on the Titty Thread), but they don't "know how to" code in a way that allows some posts to stay.
At any rate, in case some of you oldsters missed the memo, the women are sick and tired of having to pretending the shite doesn't bother us, that being deemed "lesser" is a valid stance, that we have to accept gross sexual innuendo as just the way things are, and have declared "No More." Continue at your own risk.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Oct 17, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
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Good Gawd Happy, give it a rest. You are part of the problem; one of division. I never read Kevin bashing women. He just had the BALLS to admit we are not equal in every way and let's stop pretending that we are. Women are far superior to men and any guy lucky enough to have a gal willing to stick around and help run the homestead is doing OK in my book.
Look we are all partners on this planet and somehow we ended up here together. I'm glad you have skills that I don't and hopefully maybe you will recognize a few of mine. Progression towards equal treatment has come a long ways and sure, has a long long way to go still but why turn it into an "us against them"? Pretty much guarantees you'll continue to stay alone.
Arne
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Oct 17, 2018 - 12:15pm PT
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Kev is doing just fine... I heard he is dating that angry chick that was always yapping about middle age paunches, sausages, and lab coats. Match made in heaven
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Trump
climber
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Oct 17, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
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Women are far superior to men .. progression towards equal treatment ..
Hmmm, I’m gonna have to look up superior and equal again. Sometimes words can be tricky.
Or maybe it’s just the tricky slanted ways we use them. It’s crazy how those far superior women somehow misunderstood what Warbler really meant when he called them superior.
Maybe Warbler’s homage to women’s aesthetic superiority, and women’s superior skills at wanting to be admired for their aesthetic superiority, wasn’t the equal treatment they were looking for.
But running homesteads - yea, they’ve sure got superior skills there. Now it’s their turn to admire us. Just maybe let’s not hold our breath waiting for it.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Oct 17, 2018 - 01:58pm PT
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Good Gawd Happy, give it a rest. You are part of the problem; one of division.
No, I won't shut up. As for "giving it a rest;" perhaps if Kevin gave it a rest when people BEGGED him to, he might not have had his history taken off the forum, hmmm?
Progression towards equal treatment has come a long ways and sure, has a long long way to go still but why turn it into an "us against them"? Pretty much guarantees you'll continue to stay alone.
I DIDN'T turn it into an "Us v Them" fight. That's part of the myth - that when a minority points out aggressive/abusive/obnoxious behavior, a selection of people SOMEHOW assume the finger is being pointed not only at them, but every single member of whatever group they have in common with the one whose behavior was pointed out.
Here's the deal - When women are saying "No More," they are WELL aware that there are a good percentage of decent men who are not "part of the problem," to use your own phrase.
Not all men are misogynists. Not all priests are pedophiles. Not all cops will shoot a black male rather than risking a second or two to analyze the situation. Not all politicians are corrupt. Not all park rangers hate climbers, and so on.
If a person considers themself part of a group that has come under a spotlight, that might be their conscience tapping them on the shoulder, I suppose.
Edit - Oh, just noticed the "stay alone" barb. How very kind of you. Guess what? I LIKE my life. I like the unencumbered freedom I have being a single unit. And if who I am is so unattractive to a man, that doesn't bother me a whit. A guy who wants a submissive female would never have been attracted to me know matter how cleverly I disguised the fact that I know what I know.
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dhayan
climber
culver city, ca
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Oct 17, 2018 - 02:50pm PT
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Good Gawd Happy, give it a rest. You are part of the problem; one of division. I never read Kevin bashing women. He just had the BALLS to admit we are not equal in every way and let's stop pretending that we are. Women are far superior to men and any guy lucky enough to have a gal willing to stick around and help run the homestead is doing OK in my book.
Look we are all partners on this planet and somehow we ended up here together. I'm glad you have skills that I don't and hopefully maybe you will recognize a few of mine. Progression towards equal treatment has come a long ways and sure, has a long long way to go still but why turn it into an "us against them"? Pretty much guarantees you'll continue to stay alone.
Arne
Wow, guess warbler can rest easy knowing you’re carrying the torch...real classy post.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 17, 2018 - 04:43pm PT
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Bump
I must say I don't object to its being called McNamara's War. I think it is a very important war and I am pleased to be identified with it and do whatever I can to win it.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Oct 17, 2018 - 10:27pm PT
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^^^^ ionlyski/Arne is a real piece of sh#t.
Always has been.
Always will be.
But I'll buy you a beer when I pass through your way:)
DMT-is that you?
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Oct 18, 2018 - 06:26pm PT
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I never read Kevin bashing women.
Arne- KW put up many posts disparaging women. He shouldn't have been banned, but he should have had the sense to tone down his rhetoric.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Oct 18, 2018 - 06:55pm PT
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IMO, The Warbler was not a misogynist. A little hung up on "the differences" between men and women, maybe, and what that might mean in terms of "performance". But I never saw someone who had contempt for women. I usually read his posts with interest, although not always with the agreement. We did agree that "climbing" and "free climbing" are essentially one and the same
And whether or not there's any truth to the rumor, I think Sycorax and The Warbler are "tal para cual", as they say in Spanish.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Oct 18, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
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There's always something to be learned here!
Couchmaster! Re your post:
And Fritz, a little heads up to your blindside: you do the same thing as KW with your viewpoints. The difference is that you are much more self righteous in your views and your climbing contributions pale in comparison to this thread alone. That's doesn't mean I think you should be banned any more than Kevin who seemed like a good guy even whom I often found myself disagreeing with.
Thank you for taking the time & to “set me straight.” Since I was raised in rural Idaho as a Red-state Republican, I always appreciate a little “tough-love!”
Heidi’s father, who was raised in rural North Dakota, had a story about the kid he beat up three-times & the kid still wouldn’t be his friend.
I know your gruff at times posts, likely are not your real personality.
Best wishes!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 18, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
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I must say I don't object to its being called McNamara's War. I think it is a very important war and I am pleased to be identified with it and do whatever I can to win it.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Oct 18, 2018 - 08:05pm PT
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WTF, another top flight contributor erased along with a significant chunk of original history. For what, humorous bantering with over sensitive bimbo's?
This place is about as lively and engaging as a funeral home lately.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2018 - 08:26pm PT
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Ha!
I just read that post to my wife, Rick.
She said you were doing fine until you wrote bimbo's.
It's bimbos.
(Dude ... honestly. Your PC filter must be clogged)
...................
And you, Fritz!
You rascal ...
I'm saddling you with this whole shebang.
You are the one who called Kevie a fokking misogynist, prompting him to post that flip the bird picture for you.
Now that was a good thread. Until locker crashed it.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Oct 18, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
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My favorite thread and one Kevin enjoyed and contributed to prolifically- "Notes on San Diego Rock Climbing", OP- Ray Olson.
Ray, BVB and Kevin rifting in the woven vernacular of surf and rock, disjointed in perfect clarity- it reads like the Pump House Gang.
Ray and BVB are gone but I encourage you to read what they left behind on that thread. You'll encounter the odd blank spot here and there, once occupied by Kevin's comments.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Oct 18, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
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Tarbuster! Re your kindly comment!
And you, Fritz!
You rascal ...
I'm saddling you with this whole shebang.
You are the one who called Kevie a fokking misogynist, prompting him to post that flip the bird picture for you.
My fault, I'm sure!
So many, many, mis-steps are my fault.
And I'm always ready to admit them.
It's part of having stayed married to Heidi for 30 + years.
And Roy, while I'm apologizing, I'm still kinda-sorry for stealing my favorite image of all those you have posted on ST.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2018 - 09:14pm PT
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Hi Fritz!
........................
Cheesus-Cripes!
Contractor reminded me I resaved, maybe ... the Notes on San Diego Rock Climbing thread to PDF recently, and wrote it over the original I had. If I had one ...
Going to have to see if I can suck the earlier one, if it exists, out of my Carbonite backup and find Kevin's old posts. Fingers crossed.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Oct 18, 2018 - 09:32pm PT
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Thanks for the heads up on the errant apostrophe Roy. You're doing a good job of resurrecting state edited history. On another note- was it you that I caught a ride with from Tahoe to Yosemite in a late spring snowstorm about 1980?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2018 - 09:42pm PT
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Rick,
Possibly ...
May of 1980 I moved to Mammoth Lakes.
I met this guy named Jerome Carlian, at the time 29 years old, who lived in Kings Beach. I was introduced by Hugh Burton's Wife, Kathy Dermitzakis.
He owned two Fiat coupes, both red. Lived in a tiny yellow cabin.
I owned a white Toyota SR five pickup, with one green door.
I visited him that spring, once or twice.
Not sure I remember giving anybody a ride to the Valley from Tahoe, however.
Any of that sound familiar?
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Oct 18, 2018 - 10:24pm PT
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Actually it was from Strawberry (The Leap) to Yo Roy. I vaguely remember a fair amount of talk of rodeos and big walls.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 18, 2018 - 10:46pm PT
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I hadn't been to any rodeos at that point, or ever ...
Only big wall I had under my belt was The Nose, from the year prior.
... And the Pan Am on El Gran Trono Blanco, Mex
But Jerome did by a copy of your guidebook later that year.
We'd been using the red guide prior, during spring.
Climbed:
Something on Hogsback
East Corner, I think I stepped right to get over the roof
Surrealistic Pillar to Travelers Buttress
90 foot wall, top roped some 5.9 on the right side, probably Fallout … on acid, in a snowstorm.
Couple of things on Ball Buster Rock
X Rated at the Black Wall, maybe ... or just looked at it.
Crystal Bay Boulder
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 19, 2018 - 05:12am PT
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Fritz, I hope you're well.
Happy Girl, I wish you all the best in your climbing, quest for vehicular staying power, and spirited ramblings.
.................................................
Though he's no longer welcome here on Supertopo,
In several installments, (or however many it takes) I'm now going to slavishly repatriate this thread with Kevin's original posts, including the posts of other's to which Kevin was responding.
Here is Kevin's first post which appeared on the Welcome to Kevin Worrall thread:
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:16am PT
Talkin' shop on the net sure beats those nights in the smoky mountain room bar or some funky smellin' camper. Roger - those
days on Middle were the best- the adventure, the virgin eversofine stone, that cheshire cat grin on Meyers' face! Kathy, what's a
'69 D18 in OK condition worth for a trade-in? Mike - you've reminded me that on Free Blast we were on a youthfully idealistic
mission to raise the free climbing standards above all (we should have kept going!). Mr. Nay, Blitzo - all you guys - thanks for the
warm welcome.
A priceless conversation string between Werner & Kevin, from the Welcome to Kevin Worrall thread:
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:27am PT
On Quicksilver, the second pitch. WTF were you guys thinking back then. I could've died from that run out.
It didn't happen, and look where we ended up.
Here?
Bawhahahaha ..... oh man.
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:41am PT
Sorry Wonder Brawn. Ask Vern, he led the second pitch. I think we were thinkin we'd run out of bolts if we placed too many and we
didn't have the scatch to buy more. Besides, when's the last time you fell on a 5.9? or a 5.10? or a 5.11 for that matter?
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:45am PT
Kauk told me to lead that pitch because it's the "easy one".
Sh#t .........
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:51am PT
What was that Chappy quote about Kauk's stretching program? something like "the only thing he stretches is the truth"! har har!
These are re-posts of the same stuff I put on the Warbler Appreciation thread, and I will continue from here after a bit, so this thread has everything he posted to it, from the beginning to that point at which I saved this thread to PDF, prior to the deletions of Kevin's contributions.
And yes, faithful readers, it's only a coincidence that I made this post at 5.12 am Pacific Standard Time.
Berg heil!
– Roy
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 19, 2018 - 07:38am PT
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Hey Fritz, I just reread my comment and it's right as far as it goes, but I forgot the rest of it. ie, I'm sure that you, like Kevin, is a real good dude. I'd tie in with either of you anyday.
Thread is awesome Roy, please keep up the good work! Re-reading the thing and seeing so many top tier Yos climbers weighing in back when is still fantastic.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 19, 2018 - 08:23am PT
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Thanks, couchmaster. I've enjoyed rereading these exchanges as well.
It's going to be a bit of work for me to resurrect the rest of the missing posts.
I'm hoping we can all get along here, so this thread doesn't get vanquished.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 19, 2018 - 12:06pm PT
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Okay, back to it!
From the original, undiluted Welcome to Kevin Worrall thread,
A snappy conversation between eKat, Roger Breedlove, Werner Braun, and Kevin Worrall about guitars, the Camp 4 bathroom, Dale Bard and Jim Bridwell:
eKat:
Sep 14, 2006 - 11:46am PT
Yay, Kevin. . . I always wondered if you ever got your Martin! Good for you! That must mean you're still playin'!
YAY!
Here's Katrianna. . . Blanchard #1. . . built for me as a mind boggling, life changing surprize Christmas present many, many years
ago! She's what started this whole thing!
She's a far cry from that old "cheap plywood topped Japanese nylon stringed guitar" (that's what Blanchard always called it!) I had
back in the dirt. You can acutally TUNE Katrianna!
:-)
MAN. . . I would love for you to play some of Mark's stuff! Come to Montana!
Keep the MAGIC alive!
Kath
Roger:
Jeeze, Kath, with all this talk about guitars what will come next: politics, conspiracy theories, pets, climbing ethics...?
Buzz
And what's wrong with plywood, other than it sounds dead? I had to keep my concert guitar at my parents home the whole time I
climbed. It didn't like the great outdoors.
eKat:
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:00pm PT
YoBuzz! (that's killin' me, by the way!)
Didn't know you had a concert geetar! Dang! And. . . the only way my old classical made it in the great outdoors was that "Cheap
Plywood Top!"
Thud!
eKatNoPoliticinOrEthicsJiveForMe
Roger:
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
I had a beater that I played in Camp 4. But I totaled a car I owned, collected the insurance, and purchased a fine, spruce topped
guitar made by Mario Martello in about 1967, from the guitar shop in Berkeley. I think Mr. Martello lived in the Bay Area at the
time.
You can hear that guitar all the way to the last row with a nice open sound I like for modern classical, with its precise overtone
structures. You had to play carefully though, any sound you made--intentional or otherwise--was projected to the back of the hall.
I still have the guitar. It suffered a non-threatening crack in the rosewood back somewhere along the way. However, the string
length is very long--close to 670mm and it is a bear to play--the fingers on my left hand are still a 1/4 inch longer than on my
right. I have considered getting a 650mm with a mellower more forgiving sound.
Hard to climb hard and maintain guitar fingers.
Buzz
eKat:
Sep 14, 2006 - 12:41pm PT
Buzz. . . you are CORRECT about climbing hard and playing the guitar well. . . they really don't go hand in hand, as it were. Good,
especially classical, technique calls for loose and kind of floppy hands, while climbing calls for crimped, strong, stiff hands.
But . . . anybody can rip at both if they're willing to let the fine details get lost in the shuffle!
:-)
Keep THAT magic alive!
Twang!
Kevin:
Sep 15, 2006 - 12:23am PT
Kathy I remember playing that guitar in your van! I still have the early 60's yamaha classical I learned to play on and had in the
Valley. A childhood friend of mine became a guitar builder and I watched over his shoulder as he built a steel string for me, I cut
and sanded the abalone for the fret markers myself. It's a great guitar- redwood top, birdseye maple sides and back, cutaway, and
we worked together on the neck and fretboard to make it fit my hand just right. Really broad tonal range, solid bass, mellow highs
and good volume. Makes my Martin look bad. Reading your post prompted me to pick it up for the first time in a while. Thanks!
Roger I got your Email and those photos were great to see! The photo of us on Freewheelin' - I didn't even recognize myself, my
wife had to convince me it was my nose and then I came around. That's what they're for I guess (wives) - to help you see
yourself.... sounds like your guitar playing has gotten serious - I remember you as an intellectual among heathens! I'll contact you
soon! (Keep those daughters away from climber types!).
Werner:
Sep 15, 2006 - 12:27am PT
Remember jamming in the old wooden Camp4 bathrooms, Kevin.
The acoustics were awesome .......
Kevin
Sep 15, 2006 - 01:02am PT
Werner- the acoustics were awesome, they were squeaky clean in the wintertime, and they had those big heaters in there.Ahhh the
good life! How about when Bridwell got Dale to tunnel through that little culvert with an electrical cord, buried it all the way to the
bathroom, hid it in the siding and poached electricity for the season! Big old reel to reel tapedeck, 3 way tablelamp, who knows
what else. Classic!
Werner:
Sep 15, 2006 - 01:08am PT
What electrical cord, do you remember any electrical cord going to the site? Nah!
Hahahahaha .............
Kevin:
Sep 15, 2006 - 01:16am PT
I might be mistaken, but how else to explain the constant buzz from bridwell's tent?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 19, 2018 - 12:26pm PT
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From the original, unabridged, Welcome to Kevin Worrall thread,
A conversation between Steve Grossman, Kevin Worrall, eKat, Roger Breedlove, Mike Graham, and Patrick Sawyer about SpaceBabble & stuff:
Steve:
Sep 15, 2006 - 01:44am PT
Hey Kevin, while you and Mike are around, I've wondered about this for years. When I first led the crux pitch of Space Babble, the
belay at the top was a 1/4" bolt backed up by a No. 2 stopper with MG on it. Was Mike involved in putting that route together? My
recollection was that it was you and Ron.
Greetings,
Steve
Kevin:
Sep 15, 2006 - 02:22am PT
Hi Steve, it's been a while - Mike was not part of our effort, but maybe his gear was, assuming yours was an early ascent and no
one else left it. I hope doing the route didn't cause you to quit freeclimbing. hahaha!
Kevin
Steve:
Sep 15, 2006 - 02:37am PT
Hey Kevin, I did the third ascent leading all the pitches without chalk. It's still my favorite Valley free climb. I have an Ansel Adams
photo of that part of Middle hanging where I see it everyday. Thanks for putting up such a masterpiece and encouraging me to get
out on that wild piece of rock.
eKat:
Sep 15, 2006 - 10:11am PT
Kevin. . . I have such fond, clear memories of making crazy music with you and Chappy! Do you remember all the funny climbing
words we used to make up for songs of the day? Remember how BEAUTIFUL Bridwell's voice was when he'd sing "Please Come to
Boston" with me when he didn't think anybody was listening? He was so self concious about it. . . not like you. . MAN. . . I always
loved your style! You were always willing to let it all hang out. . . I'm there, RIGHT NOW! And. . . cruisin' around in my bus with
Sue Crawford the three of us singin' Joni Mitchell songs with Bridwell gazin' out the window in a trance!
THOSE WERE THE DAYS, DooHood!
One time Werner told me he had Joni Mitchell songs in his head when he was climbing. . . but they were in MY voice. . . ahhhhhh.
Just the thought makes me miss you all so much!
I wonder how many nights I sang Dale to sleep without even knowing he was up in his tent?
HellDamn. . . I better change the subject or else I'll fire up the way back machine so bad these kids won't know what hit 'em!
:-)
SO . . . how very cool that you had a hand in building a guitar with your friend. Who is he? Does he still build?
RIGHT ON!
AND. . . are you surfin'?
I've got a serious Jones to take a Cold Salt tour out of Sitka, Alaska. Perfect point break with Mt. Edgecumbe in the background.
Whoa. . . think I gotta go there!
Keep THAT magic alive!
Twang!
Kath
Roger:
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2006 - 01:39pm PT
I have more pictures of you climbing, Kevin. I think that 1973 or so was the year that I scraped up enough cash to buy that little
Rollie 35. I recorded Jim Pettigrew doing the entire first ascent of "Catchy" in which you can just make out a white shirt in various
positions, moving up the rock. I was such a terrible photographer. (Still glad I have some of the those all shots, with our long hair,
EBs, swamis, and nuts only racks.)
I have pictures of you leading "Ugly Duckling" on Swan Slab with my hand covering half the view to keep the sun off the lens. The
sun would have been better. So would have a SLR camera.
That day that you and George were getting up the first pitch of "Ugly Duckling" I was walking by and just assumed that it was my
turn next. I remember two things: the giant flapper I cut into my finger on the razor sharp, sloping hold just a few moves up, and
the sense that it was your climb and you didn't want any help for anyone else, especially someone as 'old' as me--I was probably
24.
First time as a climber that I felt the passage of time and place.
Great times.
I will dig up more picture so you to show to your bride. You were the longest limbed, baby face in the Valley.
Best, Roger
Mike:
Sep 15, 2006 - 02:12pm PT
Steve that’s funny. I did do Space Babble with Ron after he and Kevin did it. Great first pitch huh!
Patrick:
Sep 15, 2006 - 03:33pm PT
Indeed, indeed... To one of the Stonemasters who befriended me, Kevin you are a most welcome addition to the SuperTaco world,
a most welcome addition.
I hope all is well with you dude.
Thanks Roger for pointing it out as I never saw that thread.
I have all the time in the world for Kevin. All the time.
Kevin:
Sep 15, 2006 - 08:28pm PT
Roger - belated apologies for nudging you into adulthood at the base of Swan Slab.... I guess that what kids are for!
Steve - you're really diggin deep into the memory files, judging by your other threads and your ascent of SB with no chalk, you get
the purist of the decade award 3 times in a row. Even if the rest of us falter occasionally, it's inspiring to be reminded of what's
possible. Space Babble is the only route I've done that I would consider adding bolts to or condone adding bolts to simply because,
as you mentioned, the climbing is epic and so central, but rarely enjoyed by anyone as far as I know. I know you would argue that
the sparse protection only makes the route better, and I hear you, but it is kind of a shame so few people taste that part of Middle.
How 'bout adding bolts, but enforcing a special no chalk rule?
Kathy - speaking of singing, the name I post under was given to me by Mark Klemens, a guitarist with the blues down deep in his
soul. He would never sing and used to make fun of me every time I did!
Patrick- help me out, I can't place you. I've read your posts and we see eye to eye often, but I'm not getting a face along with it.
eKat
Sep 15, 2006 - 08:35pm PT
Don't feel bad, Kevin, Klemens made fun of EVERYBODY!
:-)
Kath
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 19, 2018 - 12:37pm PT
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^^^Cool, I forgot reading the Warbler origin story! ... Klemens gave it to him. (...sounds like I'm talking about a dead guy, WTF.)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 19, 2018 - 12:52pm PT
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... 'Had a dream last night that CMAC and RJ made me the SuperTweako™ moderator.
What a nightmare, herding all you TacoBenders™ into neat little boxes of organized behavior ...
I woke up in a cold sweat!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Oct 19, 2018 - 04:11pm PT
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Roy,
You would make an awesome moderator. I can think of no one more fair and balanced than you.
Arne
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Oct 19, 2018 - 04:33pm PT
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I did find a copy of Ray's thread with all of Kevin's posts intact!
For all you ruffians, paste this whole string into your browser, rather than attempting a click through:
Tar: how do I paste the thread in to my browser. I did run through the linked thread but saw nothing posted by Kevin. There were posts from others responding to KW's deleted posts.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 19, 2018 - 05:04pm PT
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John,
Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
You need to be sure the entire string, including the prefix with the web archive is pasted into your browser.
What's happening is you are only getting the latter half, maybe, just taking you to Supertopo.
Highlight this whole thing from left to right. You'll see it's maybe trying to break into two parts. But you can get all of it. It is not a simple click through.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170930224918/http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1010167&tn=0&mr=0
Hold Control then press C to copy.
Go to your browser.
Highlight whatever is in it, (or open a new one) then press control, hold that down and press V to paste.
Press enter.
See here what I have from doing this:
I have found that I did also do a PDF save in late 2016.
But this way back machine (web archive) had it also, and saved from late 2017.
Look closely in the screenshot of my browser and see how long the string is. Note that it has a prefix for web archive, followed by the Supertopo link.
[edit] 10 four, John.
The nice thing about web archive/way back machine, is all of Kevin's pictures are there as well. And it is all just sitting there.
I probably wouldn't want to go to the effort to repopulate all of those after-the-fact, from PDF or Browser archive file type. I say "probably" ...
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Oct 19, 2018 - 05:45pm PT
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Roy
I know how to cut and paste links to google (my browser). No worky.
Not a big deal, I've read most of Kevin's posts before. Not gonna lose sleep over it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 19, 2018 - 09:02pm PT
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Yeah, eKat: I don't like stories getting lost, if it's at all possible to prevent such an occurrence.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 22, 2018 - 08:09am PT
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From the original, unfiltered, Welcome to Kevin Worrall thread,
A conversation string between Tommy T, Steve Grossman, Walter Flint, Rick Accomazzo, eKat, Roy McClenahan, Patrick Sawyer, and Kevin Worrall about Space Babble, guitars, Yosemite ice, and old friends.
Tommy T:
Sep 15, 2006 - 09:05pm PT
Hey there Kevin! What brings you to this neighborhood?
Just thought I would say hi. Sorry I missed you and everyone at Georges party a couple of weeks ago. I am currently building a
climbing gym in Phoenix, and wasn't able to make it.
I hope you are enjoying being a daddy.
Best Regards
Tommy T
Steve:
Sep 15, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
Kevin,
That route is so good that I wouldn't worry about doing too much more that making sure the original number of protection points
still remain. Those fixed pins on the first pitch would be my main concern because I don't think any other gear would be as solid or
at least seem as solid. Whether to switch to bolts or somehow cement in beefy pins to preserve the original flavor is the dilemma.
Space Babble is the crown jewel of Middle Rock and a true masterpiece. Little is visible from below in all of the rippling smoothness
and just enough shows up to keep you from stalling. You just have to narrow your focus, forget about the fall, and flow upwards.
Even when it showed up, I stopped putting in pro after a while because it broke the spell of pure movement. No other line on
Middle requires the same kind of groove.
I remember doing Black Primo with you be fore getting up on SB and feeding on your enthusiasm. I also remember the chirp of
disbelief that came out of Ron Kauk who was doing the traverse below when you yelled down that I wasn't carrying a chalk bag. It
made my day since his recollection of the route, being not so tall, was surely one of desperation. Reach is a real help on those
routes.
I also remember failing on the crux of Jigsaw in part because of the foil-thin Clevenger hanger (with nothing else anywhere nearby)
got into my head.
I talked to Scott Burke about rebolting on Middle. It sounded like the routes were slowly getting equipped with stainless bolts by
him and a few other hardcore face freaks. Don't sacrifice wildness for access or popularity, these lines are unique and should be
preserved as the gems that they are. Plenty of bolts elsewhere.
Fond memories all, Steve
Walter Flint:
Sep 15, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
Sorry for off-topic, but hey Blinny, didn't you and and I go through the PSIA exam together in Tahoe backin 87-88? Peter Mayfield
was our examiner. We met at Millpond in 97 or 98 and you said Norman Blake came by and tried out one of Marks guitars. Tony
rice was there also. Are you she???????
Walleye
Walter Flint
Yosemite, CA
Ricky:
Hi, Kevin. Long time!
Here’s a shot of you ice climbing. Even when the ice was good, winter in Camp 4 was a grim existence, despite the luxurious
heated bathrooms.
One memory of your musical talents sticks out. One night I walked up to a campfire where you were strumming the guitar. You
greeted me with a jovial, “Rock-omazzo!”
I see a light bulb go on as inspiration strik es, and then you start singing, accompanying yourself on the guitar:
“Rock-a-ma-zoe in the bosom of Abraham…”
Thirty years later, whenever I hear the tune of that old spiritual, these are the lyrics that come to mind.
Rick
Ricky's photograph:
Roy:
Sep 16, 2006 - 11:00am PT
Hi Kevin and welcome to Supertopo.
It has been quite some time.
Got any pics of your old brown mini truck with the home made color coordinated shell?
'Twas a very distinctive set up for the times.
All those Middle Apron routes are so creative and stimulating; the other side of your contribution which I've much appreciated are
the offbeat yet distinguished multi pitch crack line gems which you and Chapman pioneered for us, often my favorite tours, things
like Windfall, Beggar's Buttress, Joker/Thief and the like.
('Never sampled The Warbler (not your route but your namesake? I forget the story) or Ramblin' Rose).
I still see Teri Martin once in a blue moon and more so her daughter Lisa, who lives out her in Boulder with her husband John
Christie and kids.
Cheers,
Roy McClenahan
eKat:
Sep 16, 2006 - 11:39am PT
Great ice climbing pic. . . . dang. . . reminds me of a time back in the day when Kevin was up doing something transient (like
Widow's Tears? Staircase Falls? . . . .help me out here, Kev!) and he came back to the dorms ten kinds of weirded out. . . with his
ice ax in 2 pieces - the adze/pick had separated from the shaft. . . just shortly AFTER doing one of those GNARLY, temporary frozen
dreams! (that WAS you, wasn't it? or was it Chappy?)
FREAKED ME OUT back then. . . . freaks me out, today!
HohMahn!
OldDadBrockman
Patrick:
Sep 16, 2006 - 11:44am PT
Kevin, I usually climbed with Claude Fiddler, Jim Keating, David Yerian, Hank Ward, Bob Jones (some) but also some with Ed Barry,
Dave Hitchcock, Lew Dawson, Rich Jack, couple of times with Charlie Porter.
Unfortunately I partied too much and didn’t get enough climbing in when I hung out in the Valley off and on from 1975 to 1977.
I never climbed a route with you (I don’t think) but use to boulder with you and partied some.
I’m 50, 5’6” and I use to be blonde, from the Bay Area and I had an old 1948 Ford pickup with a home-made wood camper and the
truck was ‘psychedelic’ color as when I was sanding the body down to repaint all the old paints came through (the truck must have
been painted five or six times in its life) so I just shellacked it over. Always got stopped crossing the Central Valley going from the
Valley to Walnut Creek/Lafayette. The truck was a magnet for CHP, deputy sheriffs and city police (Manteca, Oakdale, etc).
I only have a few pix of me climbing (never took a camera along climbing) so I’ll try and dig them up to see if you recognise who I
am. I have an box in the closet with some old photos as well as some undeveloped film that I hope to develop and see if they are
any good, perhaps there is one of the truck. I’d think though that after 20-30 years the film may not be any good.
Kevin:
Sep 16, 2006 - 11:44am PT
Hey Ricky - haven't seen you since that camp 4 / historic register thing I think. Where the hell is that ice shot taken - I've iced
climbed so few times, I'm suprised I can't place it. Actually, I know I never hangdogged on ice so I'm suspecting you're one of
them photoshop guys.
Tommy T - when are you gonna get your priorities right and go craggin here in SD with the boyz again?
Roy - thanks to you for all the photos, if I figure out this scanner we just got, I might bust out a picture of the chuck wagon. If you
think those routes are off beat, you should see the last 20 years worth!
Russ - those videos are hilarious! I was beginning to miss Josh til I I saw that flapper.
Patrick - say no more, I totally remember you and that truck! I still tell people about it, particularly if they're painting an old
vehicle. Nothing like a little non-conformity to attract the Man.
Ricky:
Sep 16, 2006 - 11:53am PT
Kevin,
Yeah, the decades are rolling by.
That's one of the smears below the trail to Half Dome. I think we were just top roping...pretty thin ice. I rememember Charlie
Porter was there that day, but I don't remember who else.
Rick
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 22, 2018 - 08:31am PT
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Here's a post which I skipped because it wasn't referred to in any of Kevin's responses (my metric for curating these lost conversation strings), but it's a gem worth a second look:
BVB
Sep 13, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
swami belt. small backpacker's stuff sack as a chalk bag. huge loop of slack in the rope. crisp, new e.b.'s. spring updraft lifting
breezes up the face.
when my wife and i finally sacked up to do quicksilver, i'd had this photo stuck in my head for seven years. one of the more classic
valley images ever, in my not-so-very-humble opinion.
welcome, indeed. if we see so far, it is because we stand on the shoulders of giants.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 22, 2018 - 10:05am PT
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^^^ Some wag might say ol' Kevie looks like a girl. heh
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ExfifteenExfifteen
climber
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Oct 22, 2018 - 10:35am PT
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^^^ Some wag might say ol' Kevie looks like a girl. heh
Hmmmm, Mr. Mouse, what about the photo makes him look like a badass girl... I've seen that photo numerous times over the decades and I think he looks like a damn hippie!!! A long hair hippie!!! Never thought he was a girl, but a damn hippie. Oh those damn hippies...
//Good days during horrible times
Overused bodies, neglected minds
Shoulder to shoulder we formed as one
The next miserable generation
We were
The hippy killers// BR
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 22, 2018 - 11:48am PT
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Yeah, I should've included that post by BVB, along with that photograph from Middle in the string at the top of this page.
Here was Kevin's response, excerpted from a larger paragraph:
The photo of us on Freewheelin' - I didn't even recognize myself, my
wife had to convince me it was my nose and then I came around.
On other threads, at least one other person misconstrued him in that photograph as a girl.
Some of the best rock in the world! Slab climbing has never been more interesting ...
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Oct 22, 2018 - 12:22pm PT
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That iconic picture of Kevin still says a thousand words.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 30, 2018 - 09:01am PT
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From the original, uncensored Welcome to Kevin Worrall thread:
I started out here by offering a bunch of photographs from a 2006 Eastside reunion.
Responses from eKat, Patrick Sawyer, Werner Braun, Kevin Worrall, Ken Yager, Pat Ney, Anders Ourom.
Roy
Sep 16, 2006 - 12:42pm PT
Here Patrick,
A few very recent photos of your old buddys and a few others to boot.
Kevin, I'm sure you remember all of these folks well. For the full photo stream, please go here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=252358&msg=254177#msg254177
You'll see: Dave Hitchcock, Dave Bircheff, Jim Keating, Ellie Hawkins, Phil Bircheff, Mike Ferrel, Tom Carter, Bob Harrington, Chuck Cochran, Bill Russell, Rick Cashner, Ken Yeager, Dennis Oakeshott, Bill Nichol, Vern Clevenger, and Bob Finn.
eKat
Sep 16, 2006 - 12:54pm PT
Dang, TarBaby, you've done it again!
Look at that darling LittleHerringBone!
And the Bircheffs look the same. . . MY GOD! And Carter and Hitchcock. . . UNREAL!
Watch out, kids. . . somebody's revvin' up TheWayBackMachine!
eKat
Patrick
Sep 16, 2006 - 01:06pm PT
Wow Tarbuster, thanks for the pix, when were they taken?
Haven't seen Jimbo since...?
eKat
Sep 16, 2006 - 01:19pm PT
WHOA. . . good ones!
Everybody looks so cute. . . dang, Cashner's still got all that BIG HAIR!
Oakeshott is SO DARLING!
One day, no less than 10 years ago, I was skating up to Lake Mary (at Tamarack Lodge) and workin' like a slave to make it up
without stopping and hackin' my lungs out (took me THIRTY DAYS to be able to ski/skate that road without a break!) and I was
strokin' to make it happen this one day and I could hear somebody behind me yelling:
"Dennis!"
"DENNIS!""*DENNIS*"
And, since my name isn't Dennis, I just kept strokin' . . . until I got to the Lake Mary overlook and some guy skied up and as he
approached, said "DENNIS, damn it!"
This dad thought I was Dennis Oakeshott!
IT TOTALLY CRACKED ME UP!
I had my hair in the EXACT Oakeshott ponytail. . .
So. . . everytime I see Oakeshott now, I quietly bellow:
"DENNIS!"
He cracked up when he heard the story!
:-)
eKat
eKat
Sep 16, 2006 - 01:30pm PT
Speakin' of BIG HAIR. . . Those Clevenger dads have the tresses! And Bab (that would be theFinnMaster) is the BEST! Good to see
some pix of Ellie, too!
eKat_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
eKat
Sep 16, 2006 - 01:45pm PT
And. . . I should say. . . that littleChickieMan sure looks darling in that shot with Cashner. . . and Carter. . . well. . . it's good to see
he's still air climbin'! Dang.. . recently somebody mentioned climbers not being much into dancing . . . well. . . I can remember
going down to Cedar Lodge (back when it was downhome and mellow) and we would watch the MonkeyBoys air climb and hangin'
from anything they could reach - but not one of them would DANCE with us. It wasn't til that LittleBachStar moved to Mammoth
that he'd cut a rug. . . and he always wore FANCY shoes when he did. I mean. . . we were all at a "Pretty In Pink" party at
Schneider's on time and that LittleBachStar actually asked me to dance. . . IT CRACKED ME UP. . . he went from a total WallFlower
(pun intended, I guess) to havin' the hot footwork of a classically trained Broadway dancer!
We tripped the light fantastic!
I was hopin' it would nudge Blanchard (that would be the REAL Blinny) into stompin' a bit, but. . . to no avail. . . the man refuses
to dance standin' up!
:-)
eKat
Roy
Sep 16, 2006 - 07:08pm PT
Ok,
To straighten out the collateral way back to the future snapshot tread drift,
Here's a photo of The Warbler (Kevin) I ripped from, er, borrowed from Falkenstein and I think Tom Carter may have taken it:
Who are them other longhairs?
This is before my time I think...
eKat
Sep 16, 2006 - 07:16pm PT
HolyFrickinMcGuillicutty! Remember when we all had those blue Adidas marathon trainers?
HILARIOUS!
Now. . . I know those other dads. . . but I can't, FOR THE LIFE OF ME, remember their names! (a rare occurance, mind you!)
And. . . what's with the Lefty classical?
Whoa?
OldDadBrockWoman
P.S. DANG. . . this is a perfect example of the "Tip of the tongue syndrome!". . . who are those dads?
AND. . . Kevin. . . you are SO darling! (I shoulda told you that back in the day, back in the dirt. . . but I was too embarassed!
Notice I didn't say shy?)
Roy
Sep 16, 2006 - 08:58pm PT
'Cud that one dude on the right side be Klonica?(sp)
(One ah them ruff'n tumble too high boyz)
eKat
Sep 16, 2006 - 09:12pm PT
Craig Calonica? The speed skier?
Whoa. . .
I don't think so. . .
Kevie?
Werner?
HELP!
OldDadBrockWoman
Werner
Sep 16, 2006 - 09:19pm PT
Rick Reeder with the guitar and Dave Bircheff in foreground.
eKat
Sep 16, 2006 - 09:22pm PT
OF COURSE!
Rick Reider!
Bircheff?
Whoa - I'm slippin'!
K
Werner
Sep 16, 2006 - 09:25pm PT
Or maybe Phil Bircheff, one or the other for sure.
Kevin
Sep 16, 2006 - 11:59pm PT
Hoh man, that's Dave and Rick lookin pretty irie on a misty Valley rest day. Hardly believe there's photos like that out there.
Almost cut ma hair, happened just the other day..... Rick was the best guitarist of the bunch, and a bad ass climber. What ever
happened to the other RR?
Roy
Sep 17, 2006 - 01:19am PT
Here's an 80's Kauk, Fish, Kevin, Mittendorf:
Ken
Sep 17, 2006 - 11:13am PT
Roy are you sure that is Fish? Looks more like Russsel to me.
Ken
Pat
Sep 17, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
Ken, thats Russ, sure as the day is long, note how the two handed pocket-pool set up he's running with the slightly bent wrist flair.
Kevin, is the Pannikan still on your morning rounds?
Anders
Sep 17, 2006 - 04:12pm PT
Interestingly, "Warbler" is NOT one of the many nicknames recorded in the thread from a few weeks ago on that subject -
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=240808&msg=242408#msg242408
Anders |
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Oct 31, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
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Continuing to diligently revive Kevin's posts to this Welcome to Kevin Worrall thread,
And including the input from other people to which he was responding, in order to curate and preserve context.
In this conversation, Steve Grossman and Mike Graham bring up some history about bolting Free Blast, Kevin responds to general interest concerning the people portrayed in my photograph, plus a photograph I posted on Tom Carter's behalf, and a coffee shop question from the prior page (Click on the last 20 posts, I repopulated both photographs for convenience. Carter IDs his photo at the bottom of this conversation string) ... Karl Baba and Patrick Sawyer have more questions for Kevin about Space Babble, and John Long is curious about George Myers packing cans of dog food for the bivouac on Mother Earth!
Steve:
Sep 17, 2006 - 07:33pm PT
Mike and Kevin,
Your stories about doing the Graham Traverse en route to a chopfest on the lower Salathe jogged my memory.
Back in 1983, I climbed through that area while putting up The Turning Point. The second pitch ends at the bela y where you guys
began that huge sweeping downward traverse to the left to reach the Salathe.
After rappelling at the end of the day, Yosemite caretaker John Bachar, approa ched to ask if I was aware that I had been on
hallowed ground. I said yes, and told him that I had added a bolt to protect the very last 5.11a sequence to reach the belay. I
watched as his jaw tightened and he pondered his response to the indiscretion. Only after I pre-empted his certain sneer by
informing him that fifty feet of runout 5.10 all the way up the down ramp had left The Graham Traverse, with its enormous
windshield wiper pendulum fall, essentially intact, did he smile. "Just checking," he said as we parted company, just a little closer
for having shared an obscure bit of history that few would know or appreciate.
We old guard carry around a lot of great tales. I thought you guys might appre ciate this one.
Cheers-Steve
The Warbler
climber
the
Kevin:
Sep 18, 2006 - 12:25am PT
Hey Pat - you know me well, I still network at Pannikin. Since I never answer my phone I gotta give people a chance to talk to me
somehow. Not today though - spent the day craggin in the backcountry with George and Beaver. Looks like climbing season to me!
You're right, that's the Fish. That guy on the left looks like Tom Cruise though!
Kevin
Kevin:
Sep 18, 2006 - 12:30am PT
Steve - Are Mike's bolts still there? Or did Royal chop 'em?
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Karl:
Sep 18, 2006 - 02:41am PT
Kevin wrote:
"Space Babbl e is the only route I've done that I would consider adding bolts to or condone adding bolts to simply because, as you
mentioned, the climbing is epic and so central, but rarely enjoyed by anyone as far as I know. I know you would argue that the
sparse protection only makes the route better, and I hear you, but it is kind of a shame so few people taste that part of Middle.
How 'bout adding bolts, but enforcing a special no chalk rule? "
Quite a few years back, I top-roped Space Babble pitch by pitch while rapping from Kor-Beck. It hadn't had many ascents as
evidenced by the fact that I could rip the faded 1 inch tubular webbing apart with my bare hands. A couple anchors are truly shaky
too.
I couldn't believe the quality of the climbing. Really one of the best routes in the valley. It is a shame that it's never done. At least
replacing the anchors would let folks do it wimpy style like I did.
Peace
Karl
Patrick:
Sep 18, 2006 - 07:35am PT
I am curious, having been out of the Valley scene since the late 1970s, but what is up with doing Space Babble chalkless? I don't
know anything about the route except that is is 5.11a/b and on Middle.
Largo:
Sep 18, 2006 - 01:07pm PT
Yo, KW--
Tell us the story about you and three others on Mother Earth, and how you battled up to the big ledge after many heroics only to
find that George had mistakenly bought dog food for dinner.
JL
Mike:
Sep 18, 2006 - 01:49pm PT
Did Royal chop my bolts? I don’t think so but Steve you will be pleased to know, Royal did take my hammer from me.
Hey, had a great weekend with some old Slabmasters, Muir, Hensel, Bolton, Graham (my son Ian) a new route even got
established. Went to fill my chalk bag with this white stuff, turned out to be like Talcum power. Had to do the routes with a
handicap.
Cheers
Patrick:
Sep 18, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
Rik (I think he spelled it without the c) Reider, another very nice guy who had time for me. I remember when he got injured on (I
think) the PO Wall when Bridwell and some of you guys were putting it up. Something about a flake and an awful head injury. I
think Bachar was up there with him and had to lower him off, but my memory may not be serving me well.
Hell of a nice guy and damn good climber.
Kevin:
Sep 18, 2006 - 08:31pm PT
Patrick - only one person has done, and probably ever will do SB without chalk. Maybe you didn't read Steve Grossman's earlier
post.
Karl Baba - The fixed pins Ron and I left on the first pitch were later removed, and they were the only protection option for us at
the time. They and a stopper or two protected climbing to the first bolt some fifty feet off the deck. If modern passive pro can't
safely replace the pins, bolts may be in order if RK concurs. I would rather see stainless bolts on it than more pins that need
testing by hammer, but only in the same location as the pins were. I remember the pins(3?) being driven under roofs and in a
leaning corner, and that their failure would ruin your wilderness experience. Same goes for all the protection and belay pins we
used. I only remember 3 or 4 protection pins on the next 6 pitches. By the way, I like your photo and written perspectives.
Yo Largo - I remember it as if it were yesterday.
Steve:
Sep 19, 2006 - 12:09am PT
No non-essential pro that I recall on SB. Hee Haa. Middle Rock fixed pins were always pretty psychological anyway. Don't pop,
psychology. It might help explain the lack of ascents if those short arrows are gone.
Mike, nice story about Royal taking your hammer! The Valley never saw such a stern farmer again. If you would like to elaborate
on that classic intergenerational moment, I'm all ears. LOL! I don't remember seeing more that two old rusty Leeper hangers out
left once I pieced your route together while leading on TP. Were you around when Fawcett and Livesey repeated SB and
presumably that photo in Yosemite Climber was taken?
Cheers-Steve
Kevin:
Sep 19, 2006 - 12:57am PT
George Meyers climbed with barely contained excitement - his fingers would flutter on each feature as he chose the exact position
to move from. His gapped tooth grin was ever present on Middle, and his enthusiasm for the mind game played on her burnished
flanks quickly worked it's way into some of us and grew to a passion ordinarily reserved for the fairest of maidens. John Long and I
became two of her most ardent suitors.
General Meyers had found a weakness on the slab laying just right of the massive triangular North Face Apron, and had recruited
one of my earliest climbing partners, Eric Schoen, to help explore the possibilities. As John will remember, we were together at the
base of the Dihardral on Slab Happy Pinnacle when Eric, after sending the crux, uttered the classic "Jams are good, protection's
good, I'm coming down!" All other versions credited to someone else are just that. Eric was the original. His mild manner,
juxtaposed with an uncanny mantling ability and a herculean build, earned him the nickname "Mellow Brutus".
Eric and George boldly pushed upward little by little following the route as it led them. George's vision was a free climb ascending
the entire slab, crossing the old North Face Traverse route, and continuing up the sweeping Northwest Buttress to the highest
topout on the most massive Cathedral. An ambitious project for the era.
I kept track of their progress as I climbed elsewhere, always pinning GM down for details after one of his skirmishes. Then one day
they reached an impass. I don't remember the details, but chances are Mellow Brutus was a little too mellow for the increasing
difficulty. General Meyers needed special forces.
George and Eric had pioneered six pitches of increasing difficulty and angle to a lonely belay seemingly within striking distance of a
deep corner system leading down 200 feet from the North Face Traverse. Steeper climbing had stopped them, but George believed
only a short section remained and that it was doable. I had been hoping for just such an opportunity, and John shared my interest.
My regular climbing partner, Mark Chapman also joined the team.
Our plan was to stock the huge ledge on the North Face Traverse with bivy gear to eliminate hauling on the route below, and to
have a base camp for the upper thousand feet of rock. That done, we spent the night at the base to get a jump on the first half.
We were immediately impressed by the beauty and boldness of the climbing. George's descriptions of the route deliberately hadn't
done it justice, and he reveled in our experience as section after section of perfect stone and variety greeted us. The last pitch they
had done was a continuous barrage of technical moves past bolts placed on stances that were difficult just to clip from. It follows a
magical line up an otherwise unclimbable section of the wall and as such was used by Jay Smith and Paul Crawford to advance their
own route nearly ten years later. It is surely George's best pitch on the rock, and it ends at a small ledge with lower angle rock
only 30 steeper and smoother feet higher. I think George had even placed the first bolt on the next lead but was unable to
continue.
Somehow the lead fell to me. I cinched my EBs, checked my swami, exited my butt bag, and went. Barely made the moves to the
bolt, clipped and started toward the next stance. Thin smeary moves up a small fold in the stone brought me to a meager stance
and I made the best of it. 15 minutes later, as I clipped the new splitshank, my toes were experiencing the kind of pressure that
turns coal to shining gems. I lowered and handed the sharp end to Largo.
John moved on past my bolt and with his characteristic power and finess surmounted the headwall. Having attained the level of the
beginning of the long corner system leading to our plush bivy, John placed a bolt and began the fifty foot traverse. As the three of
us craned our necks fom the belay, we watched him steadily move toward easy ground and the skyline. But Middle is full of
suprises, and John arrived at a sloper ledge surrounded by featureless rock, with the coveted crack system two feet out of reach.
Much hollering ensued and John informed us that it didn't look good, but that he would place a bolt and do what he could. I had
seen Largo blast bolt holes in half the normal time before and I always attributed it to his overall mass and thigh size forearms, but
this hole was placed with the speed of light.John's frame was a silhouette on the skyline, the afternoon sun piercing our eyes.
When he announced he was going for it, we all hopefully squinted into the sun. A cumulus cloud of chalk dust rose on the updrafts, and John pulled slack, but did not reach higher. His bulk disappeared from the skyline instead, and our moment of confusion was his moment of decision. He suddenly reappeared, arms outstretched, not unlike Superman, flying upward. Another chalk cloud appeared as he slapped the target and swung sideways tugging the rope abruptly. After much cheering, the pitch was ours, and the ledge followed.
Meyers botched it and brought a family size can of some kind of artificial meat for our dinner. The serving suggestion on the label
looked good, but it was false advertising. As John said, it might as well have been dog food. It was inexpensive though.
That night we built a big fire with oak branches cleared from our sleeping areas, and cast giant shadows of ourselves up the
massive untouched Northwest Buttress of Middle Rock.
Steve:
Sep 19, 2006 - 01:11am PT
Kevin,
Instea d of big shiny modern bolt hangers I would happily send you some historical stainless SMC 3/8" hangers. There has never
been a failure on the stainless version. Perhaps the old pin positions could be reused and somehow pinned or reinforced? A drilled
1/2" angle epoxied in would work too since the runouts aren't too ridiculous. Perhaps that is going too far in the name of flavor but
I would be happy to help in the effort to refit SB if you are thinking about it. What am I going to do with all that ironmongery
anyway? Any excuse to visit Yosemite is a great one.
Cheers-Steve
Tom:
Sep 19, 2006 - 10:27am PT
That's Kevin, Phil & Rik Reider
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Oct 31, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
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there's only a few of forms of devastation in the climbing world, and we've been
dealt one of them here on the forum re: warbler reportage.
save the day mister 'buster
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johntp
Trad climber
Little Rock and Loving It
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Oct 31, 2018 - 06:43pm PT
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Thanks Roy.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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hooblie & johntp: chapeau.
To continue, a conversational string of historical relevance between Mike Graham, Georgia Myers, Roger Breedlove, Kevin Worrall, John Long.
We begin here with Mike Graham addressing Steve Grossman concerning Royal Robbins, and also Tom Carter concerning his photograph of Kevin Worrall, Rik Reider, Phil Bircheff.
Mike:
Sep 19, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
Great story Kevin, I hope you’re published.
Steve, one of my favorite encounters with Royal was when I first met him. I was working at our local ski\climbing shop in Newport
Beach. He was visiting the store with his wife and three year old daughter. We were selling his “Galibier” Boot line he was
importing so his mission was somewhat business. Me of course being all business, walks up to him shakes his hand and can only
say “Did you hear we freed the Vampire”! He looks at me kind of cross-eyed, tries to grin and musters a faint “Really????” I don’t
remember if I was more cordial after that (probably not) but he didn’t stick around long. All I could think of, was it something I
said? He really was one of my heroes maybe I should have opened with that line.
Hi Tom! Yeah I knew that was Rik and Phil, Rik and I were pretty close after his mishap on PO. I could barely get him down the five
pitches by myself since he was unconscious for the first three. that story will have to wait for some other time.
Mike
George:
Sep 19, 2006 - 09:24pm PT
Kev
Oka y, okay, that was a low blow and has forced me to totally refute your otherwise wonderful post about the BO. Unfortunately I
have gotten lost in the cobwebs of my mind in trying to find anything that might for sure say that was NOT dog food.
Great to connect again.
Jorge
Roger:
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2006 - 05:02pm PT
Hey Jorge, (George Meyers) just start slow. Look at some old pictures of Middle. Maybe glance at some old photos of your climbing
friends.
Maybe it will start to come back.
Just to get you going, you were climbing in the Valley in the early 1970s. Had lots of close friends. Did some really stellar routes.
Things were going really well for you until you ruined it all by going into the writ'ng and publish'ng business.
We all make mistakes. Let it go.
I know that dementia really sucks. But we'll help you through it.
Just glad that you are setting a new low standard for memory retention. I'm feeling better about myself already. Hee, he.
Your friend, Buzz
PS: Of course it was dog food! It was cheap. Besides it was only John and Kevin that had to eat it. What the hell did they know?
Got any pictures?
Kevin:
Sep 21, 2006 - 01:22am PT
Steve - Your idea of epoxied pins - I don't think it'll work. Even if you could prep the stone for good stone to epoxy bond, I think
you'd still have the rusting on the pin's surface and expansion/contraction that cause problems with any fixed piton. Not to mention
the potential mess around the placement. I do agree that shiny hangers could be an eyesore. I retrobolted an obscure route once
leaving the original Leeper hangers and 1/4 inch splitshanks next to the new ones for a little history.
If there were pitons available with wider than standard blades, a 3/8 inch hole could be drilled near the eye for a bolt without
weakening the eye too much. If the pin was driven intentionally leaving that part of the blade exposed, and then a hole drilled in
the rock through the hole in the pin, and a bolt placed through it, you could clip the eye of the pin like a bolt hanger. Wouldn't be
doable in some situations of course, but it might solve the problem. You'd have to finish driving the bolt home with some kind of
steel rod or punch. You're the man for the R&D!
KCW
Largo:
Sep 21, 2006 - 12:30pm PT
It was dog food, Jorge, and sans vittles, we had to bail meaning when I returned to do the whole route I had to climb those lower
pitches again, which was exciting. I remember being very proud that I made it all the way up those first ten leads with no falls.
I also remember Mark Chapman had just returned from Alaska and wasn't really dialed into rock climbing at that exact moment
and he got out there on one of those 5.9 pitches down low-- with basically no pro--and things got a little sketchy. There's also a
5.10d pitch up high, like 2,000 feet up there--Kauk led it and it's a dandy. Ron also ended up with the short but chilling A4 bit.
Those adventures on Middle were amazing, none moreso than the first ascent of Stoners, before any of us knew what the hell we
were really doing. Kevin was at the top of his game and did some amazing route finding out on the sharp end. There must have
been like 20 people involved in all the probes of that route.
JL
George:
Sep 21, 2006 - 10:12pm PT
Hey John: Yeah those routes were special. Mostly the wandering into the big unknown that set them apart from the crack lines. I
truly don't know how anybody could do similar routes any faster than we did. It just was mentally tiring to get out on the sharp
end over and over, and placing those bolts by hand.
Stoners was a breakthrough climb. I've got some clas sic pics of you on stuff. We'll get it out there eventually.
I think I lost interest in the upper Mother Earth when we started putting in the ladder off the ledges. You know some young punk
could probably sport it out free these days...
And remember the impressive wall above the traverse ledges? WHat stunningly steep and featured climbing that would be? Maybe
3 pitches, way up high and real steep. How we fanticized how it could be protected on lead with hooks and slings on horns,
opposing slings held with bungies, etc., not rap bolted by some yahoo... And it's still there.... Certainly bigger than us...
Jorge
Kevin:
Sep 21, 2006 - 10:27pm PT
Largo, I'll never forget your response when we were all at the base of Stoner's and I voiced my skepticism about the first pitch
going. I said something naive like " it doesn't look like there's any holds up there!" ,
You simply replied with the utmost confidence " Oh man, there's holds up there!"
Must have been all that Tahquitz /Suicide experience you already had, 'cause you sure were right!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Back to it!
Here, Kevin's longtime climbing partner and storied Valley first ascensionist, Mark Chapman introduces himself to the thread, and is welcomed by Patrick Sawyer. Steve Grossman introduces a quantity of archival photographs from FA activity on the Middle Apron: Kevin and John Long respond.
Karl Baba provides some modern context; Kevin, Largo, and Steve Grossman take it from there.
Mark:
Sep 22, 2006 - 02:09am PT
Unbelievable...Kevin W., George M., Roger B., Largo ??., (well largo!...he always defied description) Mike G., Werner B., and
others...What have I stumbled upon in cyber space?? To the Mother Earth crew: I have a photo of Kev in his RRs with George
(chesire cat grin in place!)at the base of Mother Earth that fateful day the four of us set out...One of my favorites and a fond
memory indeed.
Chappy
Roy:
Sep 22, 2006 - 02:21am PT
Wow!
Way to go Chapman; 'good thing you showed up.
Right on time.
Cheers,
Roy
Patrick:
Sep 22, 2006 - 07:05am PT
Wow, welcome Mark Chapman. Another Stonemaster who has succumbed to the Taco Stand.
Steve:
Nov 25, 2006 - 01:27am PT
Dug up these slides of climbing on Middle Rock. Except for the first shot, these were taken by The Warbler himself.
North Face slab on a nasty day. Black Primo climbs the black coneshaped intrusion above and left of the climber. Please go here to see Steve Grossman's photo string:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=252358&msg=285306#msg285306
Kevin:
Nov 25, 2006 - 11:54pm PT
Hey Steve- just got back from craggin and saw the photos you posted, really nice way to end the day. Thanks for taking the time
to do that. I especially like the shot of the climber on the snowbank, it really captures the wild feel of that area.
Of all the routes I did on the North Face slabs, Jigsaw could be the most unique and probably the least done. Looking at the shots
of you leading off the belay on the second pitch, I could almost feel the hidden cutter edges that make that section so positive and
improbable.
When George and I did that pitch first I led straight up off the belay to an arch filled with 10 or 15 stacked breadloaf sized blocks all obviously depending on each other for support. As I gingerly probed for a weakness George had no choice but to totally trust me
as I was twenty feet directly above him with little pro. Then I noticed the sequence of edges that you're climbing on in the photo
down and left of me, and carefully downclimbed to check it out.
It went together so well it was as if it was designed to climb. A sensation not uncommon on Middle Rock.
Later when we rapped the route I gently pulled on one of the breadloaves and a couple hundred pounds of stone rained down and
over the belay bolts to the ground.
Thanks again Steve.
Kevin
Largo:
Nov 26, 2006 - 12:26pm PT
Boy, those pics of Black Primo bring back some memories. Like KW said, that snowbank shot gives a visceral feel for the magnitude
of the place. The dark rock and shady vibe made it all the more intimidating when you're up there, on sight, trying to find your
way. A couple things stand out in my mind.
First, the boots back then were not great for smearing, which is mostly what you find on Middle. I climbed Stoner's in those old red
PA's and had to edge everything. EBs weren't a lot better. I remember going back and doing Stoner's in sticky boots (the original
Fires) and thinking how much more secure they made the climbing. Also, especially on Stoner's (before we got dialed into route
finding), we often did the hardest climbing on stuff that was actually off route. Kevin led a pitch down low that was probably 5.11+
(remember that weird roof thing) that we later found we could travers around at 5.10b.
Another thing(on first ascents)-- when you really had to buckle down and go for it the main concern wasn't so much cranking the
moves, it was hoping that somewhere in the next twenty or so feet you'd find a hold to place the next bolt, or maybe a crack for a
wire or a blade. This was particularly so on Mother Earth and Black Primo (or Black Rose as it's now called) because they were
steper than the other routes and you couldn't eyeball options with much certainty.
On the hardest pitch of Black Primo, Kevin and I went up and down putting bolts in and after Kevin finally sank the last bolt before
the crux (a sh#t-your-pants placement on a truly steep wall), I recall going back up on the sharp end and studying the rock below
for quite a while, trying to see what I'd hit if I popped. The wall below was steep and smooth and eventually I went for it, on fairly
rounded holds, totally clueless if I could crank the moves and if so, if there was anytwhere above on which to stop and arrange the
next pro. That was one of thge few times in my whole climbing career that I said, F*#k it, I'm going for it and come what may. I'd
seen Tobin work this strategy to disasterous results but thiings worked out for us on that day. More than simply hard (I imagine
this route is still pretty hard), Black Primo was a great route with high adventure. You had to be a solid face climber with good
mental control to have any chance at all.
Great memories.
JL
Karl:
Nov 26, 2006 - 12:45pm PT
Funny how abject terror fades to great memories!
I remember going back to that slab recently to climb some of the better protected routes that seemed like sport climbs when they
first went up (in my mind) now they seemed pretty led out!
A long time ago, I took a 35 foot upside down and backwards whipper on Freewheelin when my foot slipped on some sand after the
crux. Knocked out half of one of my front teeth. We bailed to the denist! I went back for revenge a number of years later and when
I got to the place where I could clip the bolt to protect that section, the bolt was gone! I finally found the rusty hole and figured
"enough is enough" and I was outa there.
great memories!
;-)
Karl
Kevin:
Nov 26, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
Karl- sorry about that! I think on the second ascent of Freewheelin' the first and last bolt on the route were missing, probably the
result of rockfall, most likely in winter.
If your fall was on the fourth pitch, I caught Meyers on a good one there also. The pitch traverses up and right from the belay on
runout but easy face on big incut orange edges, then up a left facing corner to a bolt protecting the crux. When he fell above the
bolt all the nuts in the corner lifted out and came spinning down the taut rope, adding to the length of his fall and leaving one of
those quarter inchers between him and a huge (100ft?) ride.
On the first ascent I led up the right facing arch all the way til it hooks over to meet the left facing one before I realized the face
traverse off the belay was the way to go. Last time I did the route the arrow I drove under the high point of the arch was still
there.
Talking about this stuff 30+ years later makes me realize how intense the experience was. The sensations are still there.
I hope all those bolts get/have been replaced. Black Primo is the best route over there IMO, due to the amazing line it follows, and
its consistent difficulty. It's gotta be a lot easier with sticky rubber, but I still get butterflies in my stomach thinking about leading
it.
I took Bridwell up on the first pitch before we finished the route 'cause he wanted to check out what we were doing up there. When
he got to the belay he just said " you're f#cking crazy, I'm not leading anything up here!"
Maybe Largo could guide me up it for old times sake.
Largo:
Nov 26, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
Kevin wrote: "Maybe Largo could guide me up it for old times sake."
Since Christmas time is nigh upon us, kindly bone up on a classic X-mas song known the world over as, "I'll be home on
Christmas," paying special attention to the line, ". . . if only in my dreams."
JL
Steve
Nov 26, 2006 - 01:49pm PT
Greetings All
I hope everybody tucked away a little mantle insurance over the holidays, just in case. Great to have you on Mark. How about
posting that teaser photo of KW? Lots of juice kicked up by those dusty old images.
Great post on Black Primo John! Locking and loading in the spirit of God's righthand man, I love it. Not just another day pulling the
trigger at the office fa sure! Incidentally guys, Black Primo is Black Primo and by any other name would not smell as sweet though
the Rose lingers curiously on.
The grand cast of characters and quality stone on Middle Rock make for such a uniquely rich and wonderfully challenging
experience if you are solid enough to pay the piper and get on up there. I dream on it every day. An Ansel Adams photo of the
lower main wall from Space Babble to Stoner's winks at me every time I sit in the clawfoot tub at days end.
More tales and pics please!!!!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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We start off in this segment of post renewals featuring Kevin Worrall's deleted content, with Karl Baba, addressing the previous post by Kevin Worrall concernin Freewheelin'. Then, we get John Long, Kevin Worrall, Roger Breedlove, Bob Van Belle, Steve Grossman, Ed Hartouni, and finish up with John long.
Note to the reader: when discussion takes up again about Greasy but Groovy, it might be noted that that is not a route on Middle Cathedral, but over near Royal Arches, on a smooth slab designated the Arches Apron.
Karl
Nov 26, 2006 - 02:27pm PT
Kev wrote " then up a left facing corner to a bolt protecting the crux. When he fell above the bolt all the nuts in the corner lifted
out and came spinning down the taut rope, adding to the length of his fall and leaving one of those quarter inchers between him
and a huge (100ft?) ride. "
Yeah, that sounds like the culprit. I thought that maybe I could get away with a piece in the corner but the memory of the previous
flight made me think better of it. It was one of those deals when the crux was all but finished and there was one move to
bombersville but that when the mind slipped it's attention for a microsecond and whoosh...!
I know the first part of the climb was rebolted and I think I remember that they went back and finished the job. I'm gettin too old
for long flights though. Maybe Russ will guide me up there.
I was on the first pitch of Stoner's a few years back and Bridwell shows up and says he thinks the route used to start like 35 feet to
the left. I'd done the route over 20 years earlier and it hadn't moved so it was hard to agree, but it was Bridwell so it was hard to
disagree. I'm pigheaded so I disagreed anyway.
Peace
Karl
Largo:
Nov 26, 2006 - 06:24pm PT
I might be mistaken about this but I believe I made the second ascent of Freewheeling, and Kevin came along as a guide. Kevin
was huge on these new routes and being a face climber I had to go up for a look see. I also remember a sling belay up there off
dreadfully sketchy wires pasted behind a little flapjack flake, and Englishman Ed Drummond climbing directly off said belay on
greasy, insecure slab moves and me thinking if Ed pops here we're all done for. I trust that belay has been shorn up since.
JL
Kevin:
Nov 26, 2006 - 07:13pm PT
Whoa! THAT stirs up some memories. As I posted earlier I think the first and last bolts of the route were gone, and I remember
discussing the possibility that Royal had chopped them to keep us upstarts in line. The route was one of the first bolted slab climbs
in the Valley aside from those on the Glacier Point Apron, and the first on Middle to be mostly bolt protected, so we thought maybe
it offended him like the Dawn did. As I said I think it was rockfall.
Drummond was a jolly good chap as were all the limeys that hung out with us in the Valley. The old Mountain Room Bar really had
a good flavor at night with Al Harris, Pete Minks, Drummond and the like. We may have shown them how it was done on the cracks
during the day, but those guys ruled in the pub afterward.
Roger:
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 26, 2006 - 08:04pm PT
Hey Kevin, I don't think that Royal would have had any difficulty with the bolts we placed on Freewheeling--they were a long way
apart and he was only concerned about slipping standards. I don't think anyone accused us of that--maybe stupid!
I have some old b&w pictures of you, me and George on the first day tries on Freewheeling. I'll try to get them scanned and
posted.
I have a question on the first bolt. I placed one directly above the bleay on the second pitch, to move up and right into that thin
corner. I thought that that was the first bolt we placed, but that would have meant no bolts on the entire first pitch. But in all the
topos, I've seen there is bolt half way up the first pitch. Do you remember if we placed that bolt on the first pitch? Is this the one
that was missing?
Roger
Kevin
Nov 26, 2006 - 11:18pm PT
Hi Roger! Good to hear from you!
The bolt that was missing was the only one on the first pitch some forty or fifty feet up, not the scond pitch. I just can't remember
the sequence of events. Maybe you saw my post on the rescue thread about me passing a gripped Ron Kauk on that lead to drop a
toprope for him. I also remember it was missing after a winter passed.
I vaguely remember debating whether to replace it or not after it disappeared, 'cause it didn't seem so bad after you got used to
Middle. Don't remember doing it though, just know it got done.
Maybe General Meyers can shed some light on this most perplexing issue, or perhaps Largo who did the second ascent.
I really like that black and white photo- we both look so young and psyched! Happy holidays to you and yours!
Largo:
Nov 26, 2006 - 11:46pm PT
Hey, Roger--
I'd love to see any photos of any of our generation during Middle C. explorations. I never had a camera during all my early climbing
days and the only pics I have prior to about 1976 were taken by others. It doesn't much matter to me who the photo is since back
then we were all basically interchangable partners.
Per the second ascent of Freewheeling, I don't remember the first pitch having any pro whatsoever. It didn't seem all that
horrendous for one reason: We'd spend hours traversing and climbing around at the base of Middle in order to get used to the rock.
Many, many times we'd go crack climbing and on the drive back from the Cookie or Arch Rock or El Cap or wherever we'd stop by
Middle and spend an hour or so traversing. After about fifty of these sessions you learned just how far you could go on the orange,
white, grey and black holds, what your boots would stick to and not stick to, and you developed a certain style of cross presuring
and mantling off finger tips and so forth--stuff that worked well on Middle and nowhere else. This gave us the confidence to go for
big runouts and keep the lid on because there was nothing you'd find out on the lead that you hadn't seen in one form or another
during the traversing workouts. Sometimes you'd have like six guys, some 30 or even 40 feet off the ground, just meandering
around and getting the whole thing dialed in. The reason for this was that there were sections of the harder routes like Space
Babble and Black Primo where you couldn't afford to fall. That's why stuff up to about 5.10b (probably 5.10c/d in the old EBs) had
very sparce pro. They guys who put in the time traversing knew what they could do. I think what made this climbing so interesting
is that it was far more mental than gymnastic--especially so on first ascents. It was much more a confidence game than a
bouldering fest.
JL
Kevin:
Nov 27, 2006 - 12:09am PT
Whoa whoa whoa Largo easy on the trade secrets!
BVB:
Nov 27, 2006 - 12:12am PT
hey steve --
been trading some old war stories and pm's with a few folks on greasy but groovy -- did you ever get on GBG, or shaky flakes?
seems like the kind of self-inflicted, one-move-at-a-time chinese water torture you'd be attracted to. did thanksgiving with hatcher
and eve in moab this year, was flipping through the new "valley free climbs" book and noticed the GBG now sports an R/X rating,
as oppposed to the old "R" rating...
by my count i've now identified three parties i personally know (not counting the FA party, I sort of knew rick back in the 70's when
he was going to USD) who've done the route, and they all count it as a rite of passage. pretty sure danny McD has done it, gotta
call him and chat him up about that rig.
shaky flakes felt a bit harder, but it was a sportclimb compared to GBG.....usually it was ok to fall on shakey flakes...GBG felt like
free-soloing with a rope and (very nervous) belayer...!
Karl:
Nov 27, 2006 - 12:33am PT
Man, I've taken nearly all my most harrowing free climbing falls on Middle Cathedral. Maybe I should do some traversing. I've
never actually found anybody doing it there.
What's the beta for the best places on Middle to traverse, you know, for mortals that don't want to deck from high up?
peace
Karl
Karl:
Nov 27, 2006 - 12:42am PT
Bvb
Done all of Shakey Flakes but only done GBG to to top of the third pitch. That Third pitch of GBG is so continuous and beautiful, it's
one of the best slab pitches in the valley. It's got good pro too, except if you fall on the 15 foot (more or less) runout to the first
bolt and crash down onto the lower angle slab below. Jeesh.
There's one pitch high up on Shakey Flakes where you're something like 50 feet runout, have to make some dicey moves, and if
you fall you're going over a roof way down below, but will hit the slab eventually anyway.
I love(d) it, but no wonder slab climbing is more or less dead these days. Somebody stop me from going back on those routes.
it's kinda like hard aid climbing. You don't know for sure if you gonna fall until get "that feeling" all of a sudden and bye, bye, hope
you come in for a happy landing.
Peace
Karl
Kevin:
Nov 27, 2006 - 01:02am PT
Karl - DNB to Stoners is all pretty reasonable, in places there are two or three heights to do it at. Seems like barely 5.11 if you do
it the easiest way, if I recall. From the start of SB toward the Kor Beck gets kinda off the deck as the base begins to rise, Steeper
and harder over there. The hardest traverse is SB to the Bircheff Williams, that's where "Kauk's Bead" lies. Kauk and Bachar had a
little competition going to try to do it first, and Kauk bested him. It's a section underneath a long 4 inch roof, can't miss it.
Kauk called it his favorite climb in that fifty favorite climbs book, it's a lot of fun and the best way to tune into Middle.
BVB:
Nov 27, 2006 - 01:17am PT
karl -- jeeeeebus dude -- you lived through P3 and didn't gun for the top? lotsa runout sh#t up there as i recall (after 19 years it's
a bit fuzzy...) but i'm guessing P3 is the R/X pitch. althogh P4 has it moments, i beleieve you can fall anywhere on it and walk away
with nothing worse than a bad rug burn and a good story...as you sell all your gear and take up knitting...
mt first peek at greasy but groovy was when i beleayed lance lynch on a new route he was working on just left of it in '75; became
an obsession that took 12 years to put to bed after that....
Steve:
Nov 27, 2006 - 01:30am PT
bvb, haven't heard that name in a great while. What has become of Mr. Lynch? He and a bunch of other Tucson climbers were at a
party. Lance was very drunk, and coupled with exceptionally bad eyesight, led him to hit Mike McEwen, the top dog in Tucson, in
the neck with a dart. He had no idea he'd done it and I'm not entirely sure why Mike didn't knock his block off. He still holds a
grudge about that.
I'll write up my tale about an early repeat of GBG another time. I took the screamer on pitch 3 and kept on climbing. More later.
Cheers,
Steve
BVB:
Nov 27, 2006 - 01:59am PT
"I'll write up my tale about an early repeat of GBG another time. I took the screamer on pitch 3 and kept on
climbing."
that'd be killer, steve.
having been nudged by a PM from one of the psychos still breathing after the FA, i've been calling around to the olddads to see
who's been on it. a very short list it apprears.
i'd recalled that me and joc just went up there and fired it after doing shakey flakes, but she has inserted the reality that we
pecked away at the sucker for close to a year before we managed a continuous, no-falls ascent. she refreshed my memory on how
i wore through a brade-new pair of levis on one mmemorable skider....
this during a time when we'd go do the calf and play misty and quicksilver for laughs.
it's time GBG recieved it's due as one of, if not THE, gnarliest, longest, most nerve racking "slab" routes around.
Karl:
Nov 27, 2006 - 02:03am PT
If I remember correctly, pitch 3 of GBG has OK pro after the first runout, which probably wouldn't kill you. (I do remember
thanking God when I reached the 'hole' where you clip the first bolt after some 10a moves looking at 30 foot slab whack if I
screwed up. I do think of that pitch as probably my proudest no-falls onsight on slab. It never lets up and burns your calves and
tips good.
I think the X rating probably comes from the 2nd pitch, which, even though it's only 5.7, has only one bolt in a ropelength. (maybe
none now, can't remember)
Either that or some of these routes have sick chossy pitches near the top. My newer guides are buried in the car and I ripped all
the relevant pages out of the ones in the house to take up the climbs back when.
I enjoyed the Rambler and Mid-Life Crisis. Both of these are exciting, thought provoking, and yet, not so death defying.
Peace
karl
BVB:
Nov 27, 2006 - 02:13am PT
i dunno man, the first "hard" pitch on GBG is a hairball sonofabitch lead..and as with all hard slab, seems casual on a tr....i'm
pretty f*#king sure we pretty much soloed the first two pitches and didn't think much of it.
as i try to ressurect these old memories, i would not be surpriseed the the X rating comes from the long, long stretcheds of 5.8 -
5.9 on the last 4 pitches where you basically solo a pitch, trailing a rope for your buddies....
Karl:
Nov 27, 2006 - 02:51am PT
I think you're right about the higher pitches of GBG getting the X rating.
The first 7 pitches of the Hall of Mirrors is another place I used to go for mind-numbing slab-0-meditations. Your shoes would
squeek on the stone like you were climbing a balloon and you could turn a 30 foot slider into a 15 foot slider by simply grabbing
the sling on the bolt on your way past it! (not that doing so was a good idea.)
Falling on the Apron seems comforting compared to Middle, which is steep enough to make you fly.
Peace
Karl
Roger:
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2006 - 10:08am PT
Hey Kevin and John,
I have some very good sequence shots of 'Freewheeling.' Some were used by Wilson in my history of Middle Rock that he published
in Mountain.
Those bolt protected climbs on Middle, both the Northeast face and the Apron, set our generation apart. The 60s guys had nailed
crack systems and then guys like Beck, Sacherer, and Fredericks did them free. But by the early 70s, we were climbing on blank
faces, running out the leads, and placing bolts for primary protection. Ray's comment: "I got us into trouble, and Rik got us out,"
sums it up pretty well (about their first ascent of 'Paradise Lost’, the first of the new routes.) The second route, CPoF followed a
crack system and had no bolts until my ‘chicken sh#t traverse—didn’t Jim have a way of summing up the whole matter?—at the
first ‘top’. Then Jim returned with Billy and John and climbed straight up, thereby ruining a great climb with hard climbing.
I heard that John led the pitch by doing a full, four points off, lunge to a single blade of grass, which he captured in his teeth for a
deadpoint, off balance, stemming smear.
Launched a writing career, I think. Probably 5.8 static in sticky shoes.
The 60s guys never ventured onto those bolted face routes--I am sure Jim's comment to Kevin about leading on the Apron is pretty
indicative.
Regarding the first pitch of 'Freewheeling,' I don't think that we placed any bolts. I remember George belaying me, just standing on
the ground, and asking me if I was going to put anything in, in his super polite, gentle way. I remember replying that there were
no cracks and it was easy climbing. George just gave me one of his trademark quizzical looks and dropped the belay rope, with an
open palm gesture of resignation--(hip belays). I kept wandering around, back and forth, as if I were tacking into the wind. I
claimed the lead on the second pitch since the first pitch was an 'approach pitch.' I place a couple of bolts on that pitch. To John's
point, we had the head-trip wired so to speak, although I never bouldered on the base--too lazy.
(Come on John, what sort of freak were you? Driving back from climbing in the lower Merced River Valley, on your way to a beer
and hanging out, with the possibility of pretty girls to chat up, and you stopped at the base of Middle to boulder? To my knowledge,
pretty girls never hung out at the base of Middle, serving beer, waiting for climbers to show up. You had a lot of drive but no focus,
man. Heehe.)
As natural as it seemed at the time--fun too--those runouts above single ¼ inch bolts were sort of crazy. I don't think any of us
gave it a second thought.
I’ll dig out the pictures I have and post them up. George has some photos from those first years, right after he got his camera. He
promised that he would post them after he and Merrill returned from their trip.
Best, Roger
Ed:
Nov 27, 2006 - 10:32am PT
Working on old Breedlove routes you get the feeling that there was a lot more "head work" going on in the training program...
bouldering or not, actually I'd call it "boldering." The correct identification of the climbing "limits" issue is that it is mostly mental.
Those routes had to venture onto ground that had no real natural protection to get to the features. Once you identified that ground
as "climbable," the only challenge was to actually go and climb it. Sometimes a 1/4" x 1" split shaft steel bolt was placed with one
of those Dolt hangers... probably was strong enough (originally) to hange a 1200 lb VW bug off of... and way less sketchy than a
lot of pro that got pounded in on other routes....
...but then Royal was watching over your shoulders too, at least in your thoughts, so you guessed you shouldn't put too many bolts
in.
You left us many examples of what it means to break through the thoughts that keep us planted on the ground... when you can
climb at a 5.10d level, you should be able to safely run out stuff at 5.8 and 5.9, maybe even solo at that level... and you put theory
to practice. But it was the idea that the mind needed to be able to do the route more than any body training (which you also did...
at least some of you); you left us some mental exercises to work on.
Thanks!
The Arches Apron is great for that squeaky rubber sound!
Largo:
Nov 27, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
Greasy but Groovy
This was a sure bet for Richard Harrison, Rick Accomazzo and yo because the climbing on that apron was almost exactly like the
steep slabs at Suicide, one of our home crags, and we were totally dialed into that kind of work back then. However, the major
challenge on GBG was (like on Middle C.) not so much the moves or even the runouts, but route finding and drilling all those bolts
on the lead. This was especially the case on the 5th pitch, which has some decent edges but is no longer a true slab--it's steeper.
Truth be told, Rick A. was going for the Mother of all Runouts on the 3rd pitch, about 35 feet above the first bolt (the one placed in
that hole) when he ripped a flake off the wall and took a huge whistler. The 2nd bolt on that pitch was never supposed to be there
(it's about 10 feet below where Rick took his fall) and never would have been placed had Ricky not rodcketed off. Too bad, too,
because he was already on easier stuff when the hold ripped. This kind of dicy fandango was in line with the philosophy many of us
held back then--that you had to run the rope peoperly "to keep the fluff off" the route. Pretty arrogent come to think about it, but it
worked for us . . .
Speaking of Rick A., few people these days understand how skilled he was at the king-sized runout. Two routes come to mind:
Mouth to Perhaps, on the Apron, and Spooky Tooth, on Lower. I wouldn't suggest falling on either route. And all of these routes
were done in either RDs, PAs, or later, EBs. If anyone repeated Greasy but Groovy in EBs, my hats off to them.
I could go on and on . . .
JL
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 20, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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You're welcome, Gnome.
Damn, I guess I've been distracted. Back to work.
In this installment I am going to repost photographs from other people, so that they are protected against photo hosting account deletions. This increases my workload considerably, but I feel it is worth it. This way the photographs are stored on the Supertopo server, under my avatar. Unless of course, I suffer an account deletion. I will endeavor to behave according to guidelines.
Well, in the previous post, Largo said he could go on and on. Now some other seminal players take up the slack!
We start off with three archival photographs offered by Mike Graham, followed by some wonderful photographs of Kevin Worrall by Jeff Lowe, and then some of George Myers' historical images. Respondents include Kevin Worrall, Steve Grossman, Bob Van Belle, Karl Baba, John Long, Rick Accomazzo.
Mike:
Nov 27, 2006 - 02:01pm PT
Good insight on GBG John. I have some vivid recollections of that route.
I thought I would contribute a few photos that seem relevant to both a Worrall Route and GBG conversation.
Bridwell and I did Free Wheelin with Max Jones and Augie West (is the last name right?) we were two parties of two which seemed
the most efficient and gave you more leads to boot.
If memory serves me right Augie did the long awaited second ascent of GBG with Bill Price And all. Mike:
Edit: Auggie Kline, Thanks now I Remember.
Tired Trad Tales:
Nov 27, 2006 - 02:49pm PT
It's Auggie Klein
Jeff:
Kevin:
Nov 27, 2006 - 09:40pm PT
That's it- I'm gonna break outta my rut and learn how to use this scanner my mother in law gave us, I know I've got some classic
photos to add to the awesome ones you all posted.
Funny how you can talk til you're blue in the face about the old days and then a photo comes along and just takes you right back,
no flappin needed whatsoever.
I went up on Reefer Madness with Fred East and John Edgar and got a taste of the climbing on the arches apron and a good look at
GBG. I remember leaving the bolts behind on move after insecure move on almost identical holds and trying in vain to relax in the
face of steadily oncoming meltdown. The suicide boys were primed for that place for sure, Rockamazzo was the king of cool on the
lead. I'm sure John's boundless energy and Richard's quiet confidence helped make GBG a done deal.
I pretty much left the Arches Apron that day with me tail twixt me legs. On Middle rock you rarely climb such unrelenting stretches
of stone. There's almost always something to go for, definitely more mental as Largo said.
Thanks Jeff- I remember you hiked the Northwest Corner that day and I barely pulled it! What a great line that is!
Mike- cool photo of Augie on that traverse- I remember you tiptoe across on orange and black dots there that rise out of the white
wall just a touch. Makes me wanna go do it again.
Steve:
Nov 27, 2006 - 11:07pm PT
Howdy folks,
Lots of action on this thread! Fig and I also did Shakey Flakes in preparation. Greasy But Groovy was a very mysterious
undertaking back when I was asking around. Nobody had been on it and the name alone seemed to invoke a good clench among
the folks that were aware of its reputation. I think that Fig and I did the third repeat of the first three pitches before the short
October days sent us down. My guide is hiding and I have been sorting through slides to bolster my memory.
I recall nothing of note until the thirty foot runout at the bottom of pitch three. The wall steepens and the entire pitch looks like a
mirage with hangers at first. A little rubbernecking and the celebrated hole shows itself as the only visible feature. Immediately, its
all silver dollar edges and every move feels 5.10. I remember being so absorbed that I was a little startled to suddenly see the
beacon of security just a couple moves away! To call it a hole is generous when you get to it and can't even catch your breath. A
quick glance down the wave face to Fig was the wrong idea and the adrenalin surf was up! Surging back on the tiny edges again for
my hands, I smeared with the left and foot dynoed high into the hole. My right foot missed the back of the saucer and just caught
the lip. Unable to press it out, of course, the left foot begins to ooze downward along with the rest of me. "Fig, I'm coming off!" I
yelled as the ooze turned into a squirt, then a gush, then a torrent. I looked down at Fig hastily hauling in rope through his belay
plate as I went geek skiing on by. Eventually l passed the stance and began sliding on my side down the lower angled intermediate
run coming up. About ten feet below the belay I suddenly stopped. Fig had reeled in no less than seven arm lengths of rope! After
the usual niceties and a moment's recollection, I swarmed back up to the belay. Awash in adrenaline and with much less fear of the
consequences, I didn't wobble the second time around and stood up proudly in the beacon hole.
Then the hard climbing actually starts and the entire coin collection is in play. The thin work doesn't let up for the rest of the pitch.
My memories are vague on what the fourth pitch had to offer beside more relentless crimping. Suicide style as JL pointed out. All
this fun and more since neither of us carried chalkbags back then. More images soon.
BVB:
Nov 28, 2006 - 10:27am PT
steve, you did it without chalk???? didja use refried beans instead?? damn you are one crazy mutha. but from my visits to tuscon
when you and off and eve et al lived there, i always knew you tuscon guys were a bit addled from all that heat....
Karl:
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
Eeewww...!
Steve, you fell from the ho'! the longest and knarliest whip! That was a totally classic description. Always wondered what would
happen if I whipped there! Nice fishing reel by the Fig.
The fact that you didn't get ripped up somehow doesn't help summon the inspiration to jump back on that thing. I AM inspired, I
just hope I know better.
I had no idea the thing had a reputation. We were just going through the book doing all the 5.10 or so multipitch routes that didn't
seem like certain death.
Thanks!
Karl
Largo:
Nov 28, 2006 - 01:59pm PT
Christ, Steve, I can't believe you ripped from that hole--and lived. Skidding down that lower-angled slab below, with a head of
steam up, is enough to take you down to the bone, or so I thought. Fig must have had a power winch to reel in that much slack so
fast, otherwise that would have been a genuine 80 footer. That you went BACK up there suggests to me that professional help is
indicated. You da man.
Dood, I'd love to see any slides of this thing if you have any.
JL
Jeff:
THIS is the shot I was looking for, Kevin. The Warbler out havin' fun in the olden days!
Ricky:
Nov 28, 2006 - 09:49pm PT
I wanted to ad my thoughts on why these routes like GBG and the ones on Middle Cathedral are runout. I think it was more than
just “to keep the fluff off” as Johnny said.
I think we were aware that too many bolts could lead to the “murder of the impossible,” in Messner’s famous phrase. It made for a
better game if you got above the protection until you were a bit (or more than a bit) uncomfortable about the consequences. Alsowe knew that placing bolts was completely inconsistent with the “clean climbing” ethic of the time, discussed recently in Jello’s nut
thread. Placing a bolt was an admission of defeat of sorts , since you had to resort to permanent and unnatural anchors to
complete the route. Consequently, we all tried to keep these defeats to a bare minimum. Add to this the ordeal of hand drilling
from small stances and it seems to me that it was a combination of sporting reasons and practical reasons that caused the bolts to
be few and far between on rocks like Royal Arches and Middle Cathedral.
Correction to JL’s post: Richard Harrison and I did a couple of very unusual routes on the East face of Lower Cathedral, Shake and
Bake and Starfire. Spooky Tooth was the third route on that face and was done by Richard and Yabo.
Mike- that shadowed shot on Freewheelin really captures the brilliant colors that are a key part of the Middle experience.
Steve-Yikes! Great description of a monstrous fall. I can still envision those last moves like it was yesterday. As you indicated, the
hole is not as good as it looks from below. I remember that I climbed past it and then gingerly stepped left into it. Great effort for
you to go right back up there after that.
But this is Kevin’s thread and the subject is Middle Rock , so back on the topic. I helped in trying to push the Jigsaw project up a bit
with Roger, Kevin and George one day, but we were all stymied by some moves trying to go straight up one of those tiny corners
like the ones that can be seen in one of the photos early in this thread. When I met Roger and George for lunch recently, Roger
brought me a photo he took on that day. Thanks again, Roger. Hey Kevin, do you remember who eventually solved the part of the
Jigsaw puzzle that foiled us that day?
George:
Nov 28, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
Geesh, I leave for a while and you guys can't leave it alone...
Here are some shots...A number of Jigsaw, then two of Black Primo. I really don't remember much from yesterday, let alone last
week, but I do remember Kevin getting burned a bit on pushing the last pitch of Jigsaw, as it steepened a bit more...and we talked
Clevenger into going up on that. We nicely led him up to that pitch, then said, well, we did the work, you just go ahead and finish
this off...He was straight up above us perhaps 25 feet with a #2 stopper in as sole pro, trying to blast in a bolt while holding the
holder behind his head. The bit split, hit his lip and the blood started flowing, he started freaking--we were a bit concerned
ourselves since we were directly below, and when he lowered off a slightly anchored bolt he was covered with blood and pretty
much swore off going with us ever...I really don't recall who finally did the pitch, Kauk?, but I do remember getting to a nice flat
ledge at the top...
George:
Nov 28, 2006 - 11:27pm PT
A few more, mostly to show the line of Mother Earth...perhaps explains the allure...
George:
Nov 28, 2006 - 11:30pm PT
Well, shoot, those Black PRimo shots, must be taken while we were on Jigsaw? who was it?
George:
Looks like Yabo and Bachar
Kevin:
Nov 29, 2006 - 12:49am PT
George, o discupame, Jorge-that is the Yarbarian and Backstar on Black Primo and I love that shot of Yabo leading the black dike
pitch! I remember that day and being so stoked that two expert climbers were there to watch on the best route up there. I also
remember Yabo going up and down repeatedly at the crux just like I did the first time. Thanks for posting those.
Regarding the top of Jigsaw, I remember finding an easier route on toprope after whoever managed to do the lead to the ledge and
I think our intention was to go back and lead it that way 'cause it also offered pro possibilities, and less rope drag potentially. It
involved climbing to the right and over a small roof on hidden holds if I recall.
Ricky-I'd love to hear about those three routes on Lower straight from the horse's mouth, all I heard about them I've forgotten or
gotten second hand. I was just up there in September admiring that wall- what a great place to faceclimb and that rock looks
insane! With Yabo up there some classic stuff had to go down.
Jellmon- I wasn't smiling like that at the crux, and you were peering down at me like a gargoyle, trying to talk me up it. The first
time I drove up into Eldorado canyon after two years in the Valley, I remember being blown away by the lines of chalked holds
leading up to and over the roofs around Kloberdanz- didn't make sense to a Valley boy, but what a fine area it is. My crack climbing
improved a lot after Eldo taught me to look everywhere for creative solutions to cruxes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Dec 21, 2018 - 08:50am PT
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The conversation resumes with Roger Breedlove, Mike Graham, George Myers, Clint Cummins, Melissa, John Long, Kevin Worrall, finishing with an historical run of photographs from George Myers, which I've reposted here.
(Again, I am doing these photo reposts to guard against issues like photobucket pay walling people, or the company going out of business altogether, or with whatever host is being used, having the subscription run out. Of course these reposts read easier if all of the photos are in situ as well. Consider it historical archive insurance.)
Roger:
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2006 - 08:51am PT
Welcome back, George. Hope you had a nice trip. Great thread isn't it?
Rick, I wasn't part of any of the drama on Jigsaw. I think that picture of you was taken by George. But I love that back story of
George and Kevin tricking their unsuspecting cohorts into leading the 'death' pitches. Someone is going to have to fess up to
leading the last pitch.
The lunch we had together in Denver was pretty special, at least for me. To spend some time with you and George after all these
years was great. I was a little disappointed that you looked so young and fit. I don't wish anyone any ill will, but compared to
George and me I doubt that anyone would believe we were in the Valley together. Must be the Italian blood line, like my bride.
So far, with everyone I have been able to re-connect with, the feeling and impact has been the same. All the great times come
roaring back and within half an hour, we are finishing each other's sentences. Talk about a time machine.
You raise an interesting point on the bolting and runout issues on those early 70s routes. I have never placed much importance on
it until it occurred to me recently--while reading posts--that the bolting and runouts may have been one of the first unique
contributions our generations made. Based on comments here on ST, very few climbers today have followed that path. Ed and I
have had lots of discussions about those times and I have tried to articulate why we did what we did—and we were all doing it to
one degree or another. I want to look at the first ascent data, but now that so many of the players are posting on ST, I think athread where we can try to figure it out is in order.
Roger
Mike:
Nov 29, 2006 - 11:01am PT
Steve, that was a hair raising tale of big wave surfing. That headwall invoked the same analogy for me as I remember. I didn’t
know fig was off the white stuff back then. Great job, Largo’s right you da man
Rick you could rest your case on your summation on why the bolts were so spaced. Well said.
More nice pics Jorge!
George:
Nov 29, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
Yeah Kev, I do vaguely remember something about finding a better way on toprope, but had we gone back up with Kauk? I just
don't remember. I do remember that on that dike pitch, I was pretty far out--I think on a single nine mil-- with Bridwell belaying,
trying to work out some moves when this voice comes up saying "I don't think I can catch you if you peel..." that snapped me out
of feeling pretty good and thus putting in that first bolt in lower than I was happy with. He was probably right, but then you went
up, stacked some pins to protect going higher still to another bolt placement, before Largo pretty much fired it... Or am I
combining days? If only I had a guidebook to refer to, it might all make more sense, but alas I have none but in storage...
Rick's thing on bolt placing ethics is right on. I'm gonna start a new thread here with some photos of the east face of lower, one
from a helicopter...
Clint:
Nov 29, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
George wrote:
> If only I had a guidebook to refer to, it might all make more sense, but alas I have none but in storage...
Fortunately you distributed a few thousand backup copies to fans worldwide, so here is your topo of Jigsaw, pitch 4:
Clint:
If you want to see the full page, just let me know.
Thanks for showing us how to do guidebooks right!
Not to mention the awesome action photos and stories in Yosemite.
Melissa:
Nov 29, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
"Rick you could rest your case on your summation on why the bolts were so spaced. Well said."
Yes! I copied it so that I could show my boyfriend later. He loves those routes and sees the style that you guys chose back then as
something to presently aspire to on new routes.
Largo:
Those are good points Ricky brought up per our feelings about bolting back then. Messner, with his "Murder of the Impossible"
motto, was on our minds; but we also knew he was a child of the Alps and big mountains, and in the 70s, both venues were not
short of huge natural lines to knock off. Our situation was different.
At Joshua Tree we still had natural lines to bag and in doing dozens of first ascent out there I only had to place a handful of bolts.
However at Tahquitz and Suicide, and later in Yosemite, most of the obvious crack systems had been bagged, which left us the
open faces. So we accepted we could prosecute the Messner "no bolt" ethic in absolute terms, but we wouldn't be able to do many
new routes. Our compromise was to consider that bolts were legitimate but that their use had to be justified, and simply being
scared was not enough justification to start drilling. If it had been, all those Middle C. routes would have been sport bolted bottom
to top. The result is that people usually pushed things to the edge of danger and possible physical harm–sometimes farther–and
then sunk a bolt.
This ethic, running the line far as your mind could handle, was the thing that vitalized the game for most of us. The idea was to
acquire some modicum of mastery and self control, and you did so out on the sharp end. I went bouldering if I wanted to merely
crank hard moves. If I wanted the full dose, I had to get out there on new terrain with a few friends dedicated to finding out just
how far we could go and get away with it. Basically we were in it for the excitement, the more the better. The idea that 35 years
later I'd be writing about any of this never entered my mind. I was just worried about the next move.
What hasn't been mentioned here is Ricky A's blood-curdling roped soloing that he carried out on Middle. If I'm not mistaken, he
rope soloed a stack of the routes we've been talking about. That, ladies and gentlemen, is a very scary proposition, then, and now.
JL
Melissa:
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
So how did one rope solo a scarey slab/face in the pre-auto-feeding device era (so far as I'm aware)? Did you drag bights and hope
that the didn't catch on anything so that you had to fiddle with it less often? It seems hard to imagine being able to mess with a
clove while doing that kind of free climbing.
Kevin:
Nov 29, 2006 - 09:54pm PT
Hey George- as I remember it , the "pin stack" you're talking about was probably actually a tied off long thick arrow upside down in
a horizontal seam below the crux of the dike pitch. Again, as it's been over thirty years, not 100% sure, I think there was a bolt six
feet or so below that for back up and the crux moves were started with feet on the edge of the seam level with said pin and several
feet left. Up down up down up down...... It's all in the footwork there.
I think the day we finished the route Largo was there and I placed two bolts off the belay with the second being one of the steepest
stances I've drilled off of. Two opposing inch wide mini ramps made the stance semi secure fo the feet, but I was cooked after the
effort and John led past that bolt on the fourth pitch crux. The easy fifth pitch sticks in my mind as being especially sweet.
I completely agree with Ricky's evaluation of the style of bolting. I would add that we a had strong sensation on those new open
face climbs that something very special and powerful was at our fingertips and nothing less than an all out mental and physical
effort did the route justice.
Y'know - old fart idealism.
George:
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
Well, yeah, you got that right about up there feelin' free, just thinking of going up. Rick is of course right on with the ethic we were
operating under... We felt that bolts were basically to be avoided, so you were honor-bound to stretch em out. Good times. Yeah,
that Black Primo dike pitch we all had a piece of, that worked out pretty well. I really need to see a guidebook. I remember so
little, but your mention of a real nice pitch above rings a bell...
I'm gonna overload the system with photos, and please bear w ith me if I repeat..
a couple more Jigsaw, a bouldering, 3 Orange Peels (kinda a minor, but fairly tech nical slab I remember, and then a string of
Mother Earths.
I may have to s tart a thread of my (at the time) unclimbed big ideas that time left...I'm so out of touch, I really wonder if some of
these have been done.
George:
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:31pm PT
and mother earth: I particularly like the "staging"
George:
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:37pm PT
and then, above the traverse ledges on Mother Earth:
George:
Nov 29, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
And then more Jigsaw
George:
and Roger Breedlove:
George:
and no, Roger those shots of Black Primo were not tilted. They look pretty right on..
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Powder
Trad climber
the Box
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Dec 22, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
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Thank you, Tarbuster!
This was/is one of the most valuable threads on ST...
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