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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Behold the divine myth junkies, otherwise the supernatural fiction junkies, who "cover" for the scriptural literalists (JE to Kim Davis to Baghdadi to...) who teach their children the old ways of thinking are truth (historical truth, operational truth).
Meanwhile San Bernardino to Paris to Syria rages. Tens of billions of dollars spent around the world on security against religious crazies instead of new particle colliders (go China!). Today it is the Saudi embassy in Iran that is burning. Tomorrow? A dirty bomb?
No, there's no link between iron-age beliefs in a warrior god and burning in hell and tribal barbarism in our streets today. None at all.
Where is the interest / responsibility to modernize? I don't see it in half the populations everywhere.
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WBraun
climber
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The usual cluelessness begins to seep thru again.
It only takes a few posts and HFCS fails again ....
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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the Bible's text is much more strongly supported by physical evidence than any other work of comparable age, including, but not limited to, the works of classical scientists and of philosphers such as Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Plato and Socrates.
Physical evidence? Sounds like you're talking scientism. The Bible has been revealed to be false by the brilliant and inspired Richard Dawkins. There are some things which are beyond the scope of physical evidence and science, and in these cases we must look towards revelation and other sources of truth.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Moose,
Funny thing, "scientism" could actually be a very useful word. But it's evolved unfortunately as a pejorative because of ol time religion's chokehold on half our population. The members of which sadly we could refer to accurately not as "science types" but Abrahamic supernaturalists.
I just hope when the Abrahamic supernaturalists go at it (chances are, Christians vs Muslims) - which they will soon enough if some critical number of em don't take advantage of the info age and social media and wise up - they somehow do so far far far far away from me. Leave me out of it. Leave us out of it.
And hopefully when this time comes, this armageddon smackdown will occur out in some barren desert somewhere, and not in any prime ecosystem. We can hope.
Perhaps Paul, Jan and others however would enjoy the experience of an up close and personal encounter though. They could take notes.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Meanwhile San Bernardino to Paris to Syria rages. Tens of billions of dollars spent around the world on security against religious crazies instead of new particle colliders (go China!). Today it is the Saudi embassy in Iran that is burning. Tomorrow? A dirty bomb?
I propose a scientific experiment: quit watching the news for two months and see if your conception/view of the world changes, becomes more peaceful, bucolic.
You know the huge majority of humanity in the world gets along very nicely even though they practice a myriad of different religions. The fanatics are the fanatics, but they're few and far between even in the middle east.
Those news guys only want to sell you soap and to do so they've got to have something lurid to show/seduce you, makes for a distorted view of what is.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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re: respecting other's beliefs
It seems only about three in ten who engage in these discussions care enough... or are discerning enough... to distinguish (1) respecting one's right to believe from (2) respecting others beliefs.
There is a difference and it's an important one, enough to not disregard in conversation.
No, I don't respect the following Abrahamic beliefs: (1) kill those who leave the faith (2) Jesus rose from the dead on the third day as a historical truth claim; (3) demons exists under the command of Satan and they can possess a body. (4) a woman's testimony is worth half a man's testimony. (5) Bad things happen in the world because of Original Sin (The Fall from the Garden).
These are iron-age prejudices or superstitions. There is no reason to respect them (other than in historical context).
three in ten...
So that probably means three in 30 in the general population?
It continues to be a hard row.
.....
Where's your focus, Paul?
It's not just about watching the news feeds.
Moreso it's about the HUGE sums of money being spent whether alarmist or not. HUGE sums that could be spent in other ways than security (anti-cancer gene therapy, a Mars mission, a US particle collider) if only the Abrahamic religious world could/would more quickly update its beliefs (its understanding of how the world really works, for starters).
Instead those who push for this modernization meet with obstacles and deniers - not to mention dipsh1ts - and are called bigots.
If there's a 9/12 in the next couple of years, a mere few thousand MORE lives lost (true, just a tenth lost to gun violence) and we lose even more freedom to security because it's such a scary unknown, one thing's for sure: culture won't be the same, it'll change that much more.
A stitch in time saves nine.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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What specifically have many believed for 2,000 years about Jesus Christ?
Bryan,
the easy answer is John3:16. The hard part that causes confusion is
when Jesus said,"I come not to condemn The Law, but to fulfill it".
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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It is quite mysterious to me how some people are able to believe... -Moose
I get what you are saying. But it shouldn't be mysterious.
You have a rich background in science. You have a science education. You're grounded in a science education. THAT is/ was your compelling reason to challenge (not "insult" btw) the old system that is so embarrassingly out of touch, misleading, and terribly costly.
How many in 30 can say that? If Spock were here he'd identify that as a major source if not the source of the problem. Clear as the points on his ears.
Those without (a lifelong science edu) are shooting blanks. They're operating from a vacuum. An iron age supernaturalism is their only alternative. By default.
Mystery solved.
Sometimes the positive change is quick and plain as day. Other times it's like watching the proverbial pot come to boil.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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The Bible has been revealed to be false by the brilliant and inspired Richard Dawkins.
Oh yeah, and could you please direct me to the revealings by the "brilliant and inspired" mr Dawkins to even one falsity?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Where's your focus, Paul?
My focus is on reality and the wisdom required to deal with that reality. "Where shall wisdom be found?"
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Moose: I am a scientist and I am proud of it.
Proverbs 16:18
HFCS:
The sky is not falling.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Thank you JEleazarian for the considerate reply.
I respect revelation. I once conceived a way to tune my viola without a pitch pipe but the method did not survive my waking up.
I would respect another person's revelation. If there were revealed facts which appeared to contradict the truth as I saw it, I would at least question my facts. If there were no facts to check there would be no way to question the revelation other than offering a counter-opinion.
I am not sure what you mean by the scientific method. I would say that babies get a lot of knowledge about things without using the scientific method.
Science has many limits. There are ethical, moral, legal, and practical limits. Beyond human limits, there are basic limits which physics and information theory have discovered.
A hundred years ago, mathematics was thought by some to be our best example of certain and eternal truth. Now we know that even within arithmetic and algebra there are true statements about arithmetic and algebra which cannot be proved using the axioms of those fields, and further that the systems themselves cannot be proved consistent using the axioms from which their true statements are derived.
Often the mathematician or scientist must wing it. Humans are good at discovering things which a systematic method will not. A discovery may even appear as a revelation, though not without a lot of study beforehand.
The human talent for seeing patterns and having insights that a systematic approach misses is also a potential danger.
When I see the word scientism without reference to a specific instance of it, I'm reminded of Joe McCarthy and his briefcase with a list of names. People are easily convinced that a creeping menace is threatening what is good and Holy. Communism is not the only example.
Our fears, hopes, vanity, and entire rich range of emotions are too easily attached to words. The words have power and should be used carefully.
On the other hand, if you were a Neanderthalensis worrying about Sapiens, you were probably justified. Sapiensism blotted out the Neanderthalism sun. But we do have a few leftover genes.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^that was nice Mh:)
Yeah Moose, we all have the God gene.
It is quite mysterious to me how some people are able to believe in god(s). (No disrespect)
When I was a kid and believed in God, the prayer helped me to survive some hard times.
Jesus gave a bit of insight to the mystery when He said, only those sick seek out a doctor. Sure you might say that seems a logical pursuit for the material body, so what? But you must remember the bible is a spiritual guide. And what's read on the surface is only half the truth. There is a mystery to everything that Jesus said. It's written that we might be caused to seek His truth. And with each insight we long to know the whole truth, spiritually His Face. Within this longing, we each try to help prepare the paths of our brothers and sisters. Not till then does our faith grow.. With a growing faith our imagination is able to put to work the Word which has been stirred in our heart by the Holyspirit. When the truth is rendered before our eyes, it's only the Ego that's able to deny the truth.The mind see's the truth, the heart knows the truth, it up to you
to decide which way to go from there..
A lot of people call on God when their in a bind. Goes back to the injured needing a doctor. When the human organism is inflicted with injury,pain, suffering our mind intensify's on an inward intuitive realization that we each are not a singularity in this universe, that we are all connected and even the strongest in us needs help time to time. This isn't the revelation, the revelation is that for many it takes getting to this point of humbleness and openness to be inclined to listen for His voice or to recognize His works.
You said when you were a kid you Believed in God and you prayed, and He helped you.That's faith, working, receiving reward(being blessed) i'd attest to that as Truth. It's up to you what you do with that truth next.
He's not just a healer, He's our Father. His aspirations are even more for us than our own..
Peace
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^ We are all sinners! By Graceism We are forgiven! Ha.
Wiki
Scientism is belief in the universal applicability of the scientific method and approach, and the view that empirical science constitutes the most "authoritative" worldview or the most valuable part of human learning - to the exclusion of other viewpoints. Accordingly, philosopher Tom Sorell provides this definition of scientism: "Scientism is a matter of putting too high a value on natural science in comparison with other branches of learning or culture."[1] It has been defined as "the view that the characteristic inductive methods of the natural sciences are the only source of genuine factual knowledge and, in particular, that they alone can yield true knowledge about man and society".[2] The term "scientism" frequently implies a critique of the more extreme expressions of logical positivism[3][4] and has been used by social scientists such as Friedrich Hayek,[5] philosophers of science such as Karl Popper,[6] and philosophers such as Hilary Putnam[7] and Tzvetan Todorov[8] to describe (for example) the dogmatic endorsement of scientific methodology and the reduction of all knowledge to only that which is measurable.[9] Philosophers such as Alexander Rosenberg have also appropriated "scientism" as a name for the view that science is the only reliable source of knowledge.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^Why is that statement so offensive to you?
Do you not believe any of your actions have a negative reaction in this universe?
and
Moose, Why would faith be easier than what you have now?
You are right about it being easier, but its much more work..
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Oh yeah, and could you please direct me to the revealings by the "brilliant and inspired" mr Dawkins to even one falsity?
A falsity? You mean like using historical evidence and logic and stuff? No I'm talking revelation. That's where someone tells you something and then you believe it. It's one of the many ways of uncovering truth which scientism ignores. Dawkins wrote a book and I believed it. The revelation is all the evidence I need.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Bryan, ok thanks.
i thought you where saying dawkins proved the bible wrong. Maybe if you read the bible you might also find revelation there?
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WBraun
climber
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Dawkins can't prove sh!t.
All he can prove is that he can run his mouth ......
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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You don’t even really know if I exist, much less or more whether these words refer to any experience at all about “mu.” Speaking for others is unsanitary.
Was referring to mu after I referred to beginners mind a trick? You weren't really talking about the zen principle? Got me!
Mushin might be what you had intended to refer to? The threshold for getting little glimpses of mushin after long and consistent effort appear to be much lower than mu. What wonderful practices no mind (mushin) and beginner's mind (shoshin) are!
Unsanitary - that's a very interesting choice of words. If words actually have any meaning....
I can't speak to who people are - I can speak to what they say and what they do. I don't speak for you. You speak and I respond. Well, often I react rather than respond to what you post because my tendency is to act dogmatically and bombastically, too. I'm trying to get better. The evil witch Ego "turned me into a newt but I got bettah!" Well, most days, at least a little bit,'some of the day anyway. ;-)
You display too much ego to experience mu and so do I. Mu is a concept that has an extremely high threshold for experiencing it and a very elite few will ever meet it. Even the ego of wanting to experience mu knocks us out of the running.
You could be playing around as an avatar and be someone completely different. It's a reasonable assumption a human is posting as MikeL.
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