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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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I would venture a guess, though, that those who squawk the loudest are probably those who feel most threatened by the exposure of scientism as a mere belief.
By your definitions, no one here is a scientism-ist. Maybe there are some out there, but maybe the whole characterization is a straw man. For more on that, see:
http://theness.com/roguesgallery/index.php/creationismid/the-scientism-straw-man/
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Norton
Social climber
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Base, Thanks for that last post. It was wonderful!
seconded
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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C'mon, it's the 21st century.
So all ancient history is false? More importantly, if I told you I enjoyed reading the paper this morning, am I not revealing something to you that you would not otherwise know? Are you saying that's therefore false?
And yes, I was not intending to do anything more than stir the pot, as I stated when I posted the picture. I know Bill Cosby as now been revealed as a complete disgrace, but he has a great story from "Why Is There Air?" He tells of a shop teacher where a student put a bullet in the furnace. The shop teachers ask "Who put the bullet in the furnace?" When no one fesses up, the teacher continues "Whoever put the bullet in the furnace must have a terrible mother." Next thing you know, a kid goes "I didn't put no bullet in the furnace, and quit saying those things about my mother!"
Thou protesteth too much, methinks.
John
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Good response John.
And mark, I'm more or less at the same place right now, just trying to do it with more compassion as I go along.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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No "science type" here believes nor states there aren't sources of knowledge apart from "the scientific method." That's only a caricature or gross misunderstanding. Obviously everyday general life experience is also a source of knowledge. A few weeks back I learned to double check a piece of lumber (by wearing my glasses, for starters) before cracking it over my knee. That learning experience was a source of knowledge. Indubitably. And a far cry from an angel or God.
You might as well go all out then and believe in the Greek Gods. And their "revelations."
So all ancient history is false?
It seems few around here can make a pt without hyperbole.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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re: (divine) revelation
I ask again...
how are you NOT a scriptural literalist drawing off
the same theology as your ancestors of the middle age?
insofar as you believe a sky god revealed knowledge, one way or another, to moses or to any OT kings, judges, prophets...
.....
You don't think religious leadership... down through the centuries... pretended to knowledge it simply didn't have?
Remember, you're a student of human nature and a student of history.
You think pretending to knowledge is an okay thing?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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MF:
You don’t even really know if I exist, much less or more whether these words refer to any experience at all about “mu.” Speaking for others is unsanitary.
Ed:
In other places I’ve written, more than once I believe, that no one view can provide a full view of What This Is. I have repeatedly written that all views should be entertained and integrated, perhaps even the so-called crazy ones. My definition of a narrow mind would be one that cannot be self-reflective or recognize his or her biases and preferences. It is that set of self-aware understandings—to my mind at least—that makes the human being most human. To that end, each and every view makes a contribution. Again, . . . even the crazy ones.
On the other hand, it strikes me as the very height of arrogance to argue and believe that all things in reality can only truly come under the view of empiricism, logical positivism, and naive realism . . . or that one holds no paradigms, biases, or rules of thumb that fall outside of experience. By all accounts professionally that I am aware of, human beings are programmed from birth psychologically, sociologically, educationally, by our trades, by our myths, by our genetics, by our experiences, and so forth. In my view, the only project worth undertaking is to get to the bottom of all of that to see how things really are.
Maya’s veils seem to be almost infinite and infinitely nuanced.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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HFCS, I don't have a lot of time today, but ST has been so entertaining I keep checking back. Yes, I believe what many have believed for 2,000 years, when it comes to Jesus Christ. I also believe what many have believed even longer about Julius Caesar, Aristotle and Hammarabi.
Have at it.
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"Yes, I believe what many have believed for 2,000 years, when it comes to Jesus Christ."
So there it is.
Alright. Have a good one.
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Norton
Social climber
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and everyone believed the earth was flat for a far, far longer period of time
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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You might as well go all out then and believe in the Greek Gods. And their "revelations."
I believe in the Greek pantheon. You should too. Greek Gods offer wisdom that applies to right now. Do you have any idea what they reveal?
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Norton
Social climber
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Paul,
You speak of Greek gods as if you believe they actually were real and
exercised super human powers.
Is that correct?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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and everyone believed the earth was flat for a far, far longer period of time
I don't believe you're correct there, Norton. There's significant evidence that, even in Columbus's time, he was hardly unique in thinking the earth was essentially spherical. The real issue was how far it was to get to India sailing westward. In classical times, the surviving fragments of scientific literature show a general belief that the earth was round, not flat. ironically, the Bible's text is much more strongly supported by physical evidence than any other work of comparable age, including, but not limited to, the works of classical scientists and of philosphers such as Seneca, Marcus Aurelius, Aristotle, Plato and Socrates.
I did, however, use a similar line to yours in a letter to opposing counsel in 1980. He said my client's taking the Fifth was ridiculous because it was "inconceivable" that his answers could incriminate him. I responded that one's perspective could make it easy to conceive the inconceivable. I then added "but take heart. For generations of other great minds, it was inconceivable that the earth was anything but flat."
Somehow, his threatened motion to compel deposition answers never materialized after that letter.
John
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Yes, I believe what many have believed for 2,000 years, when it comes to Jesus Christ.
What specifically have many believed for 2,000 years about Jesus Christ? Are you just referring to the minority of the world's population who hold Christian beliefs? Because even that group can't seem to agree on much.
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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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What specifically have many believed for 2,000 years about Jesus Christ? I interpret that to mean what do I believe that many others have believed for 2,000 years (obviously a bit less). that's a fair question.
I believe in what the Bible, as determined by the canon settled upon by the early church (in other words, excluding the Apochrypha as biblical, just as the church did until after the Reformation), and further confirmed in the early creeds through and including at least Chalcedon in 451 A.D. (since I know that abbreviation should annoy some), say about Jesus Christ. I can find evidence of what we Protestants would call orthodox Christian belief continuously from the time of the writing of the New Testament to and including today.
I'm sorry I can't be more detailed, but I have a brief due Wednesday, and I have to budget my entertainment on ST to a few minutes each hour. I've pretty much exhausted my budget for today, so you have lots of time for pot shots.
John
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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You speak of Greek gods as if you believe they actually were real and
exercised super human powers.
Insofar as they represent powers that humanity has difficulty controlling: yes.
If you take the Parthenon, for instance, a temple dedicated to the Goddess Athena, born from the head of God, the mind of God, representing reason and rational thought in all situations, protector of Athens through wisdom. Below her pediment representation, depictions of the battle of the Lapiths and Centaurs as the battle between anarchy and civilization. Athena's message: reason over emotion, the triumph of the polis, that a good life is a civilized life. What's not to like?
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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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And what uplifting message can we glean from Hades? Because that's where the generic "Christian" creeds go one better. The resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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And what uplifting message can we glean from Hades? Because that's where the generic "Christian" creeds go one better. The resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
The Chthonian Gods are inscrutable and difficult and even when they're charmed by the likes of Orpheus problems arise and so return from the underworld is difficult. Only Persephone who leaves for part of the year, every year, to bring life in the form of spring back to the world before she returns to spend the rest of the year in the underworld really succeeds: in death is the vitality of life. Great wisdom in the notion which is common in agricultural cultures.
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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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Very nice.
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