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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 24, 2015 - 10:05am PT
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Alex Jones. That guy is pretty smart. He got rich from being an idiot.
Have any of you watched his youtube videos? He is a nut. I don't like using such language, but in his case, there is really no other way to put it.
As for Religion, every human civilization that we know of has a religion, a creation story, and various rules. I've never heard of a civilization without religion, anyway. Correct me if I'm mistaken.
The interesting thing is that they are all different. For instance, Christianity didn't pop up independently in multiple locations. As far as I know, no religion has independently flowered in multiple locations. It would have been interesting if the first Europeans to reach the Rocky Mountains found Native Americans practicing Christianity, or any other geographically separated spiritual faith.
If you want to date a rock, there are a number of methods. If 5 independent methods all arrive at the same date, you can be pretty sure that it is correct. Independent verification of evidence is always a good thing.
I'm not aware of this ever happening with any specific faith.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 24, 2015 - 10:15am PT
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From MikeL's post of Dec 22, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
Ed: Economics is a sub-discipline of ecology even if we somehow resist the notion, but remember that ecology is the study of the interactions among organisms and their environment, where as economics studies the factors determining the production and consumption of goods and services, that is, the interactions among humans and their environment (from which the raw products are acquired, including energy).
Mike: I’m expecting that JEleazarian is going to be responding to this notion or definition. I hope he does, anyway.
Inviting me to post is like waving a cape in front of a bull. In this case, I think Ed stated it pretty well, even if his somewhat imperialistic definition of "ecology" includes all of the social sciences. Economics studies the allocation of goods and services, which certainly makes it an element of ecology.
Of course, all of this begs the question of whether that relationship is predestined or subject to free will of the actors. . . .
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 24, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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I'm not aware of this [ independent verification of evidence] ever happening with any specific faith.
I'm not sure what you mean by specific verification of evidence, but if you mean verification of fact, the New Testament is full of appeals to independent verification.
In Chapter 15 of First Corinthians, for example, Paul describes Jesus's appearances after the Crucifixion and burial, first to the apostles, then goes on to say in verse 6: "After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep."
This is an appeal to the readers to ask those who say they saw him, while they were still alive and able to be questioned. The first believers called themselves "witnesses" for an obvious reason: they were available to testify to what they saw.
In addition, archeology in the Near East has engaged in much activity seeking to verify or refute specific Biblical factual assertions, as well as gaining insights on Classical society and culture.
i find it particularly signficant that by the middle of the 19th century, those who considered themselves most learned in western society believed that almost every account from classical times - including, for example, The Iliad and, of course, the Bible - was largely fable or myth. This carried over to a general belief that, e.g., Troy and Nineveh both did not exist, but were allegories. The discovery of those two cities (particularly the latter, whose identification is unmistakeable) forced them to change their tune.
John
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 24, 2015 - 11:26am PT
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The interesting thing is that they are all different.
Different, but similar as well: how is it that over a period of many thousands of years, say from 2200 BCE to 800 CE or so and many thousands of miles away on a different continent we see folks building artificial mountain temples on the top of which acts of propitiation take place to anthropomorphic deities? People, humans, humanity, we are much more alike than we are different. We experience similar events in our lives that lend themselves to similar conjectures and interests and we do similar things. The basic idea of God dressed in the local inflection of a particular culture.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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i find it particularly signficant that by the middle of the 19th century, those who considered themselves most learned in western society believed that almost every account from classical times - including, for example, The Iliad and, of course, the Bible - was largely fable or myth. This carried over to a general belief that, e.g., Troy and Nineveh both did not exist, but were allegories. The discovery of those two cities (particularly the latter, whose identification is unmistakeable) forced them to change their tune.
the empirical fact of a thing is usually very powerful convincer... as opposed to speculation and belief...
many smart people believe in a lot of speculation, the smartest of those know when the jig is up, not when a better speculation is proposed, but when a humble observation is made, or perhaps that should be a humbling observation.
persistent speculations avoid the possibility of comparison with observation, carefully crafted to have unverifiable "facts" and so avoiding the possibility that the observations would challenge the speculation... it is the evolution of an argument, which dies on demonstrations of falseness, but lives on by avoiding such falsifications.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 24, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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Base: The interesting thing is that they are all different.
Er, . . . Joseph Campbell made his living as a scholar for some 50 years teaching how myths (and their parts) were structurally similar and recurrent across the world. (See also Northrup Frye's works.) Many of those myths (most?) seem impossible to link by geography or time logically. Saviors who arise from the dead, virgin births, tests by the devil, and so forth were common. What was different were the particulars of name, context, and appearance.
You know, it's like much of what science is arguing about in this or that field.
Look at Wiki, or you can read one of many books, watch one of Campbell’s many videos from PBS, or take a class on the subject.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 24, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
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True about Campbell, and the Minoan and Mycenaean and Assyrian discoveries as well: that what is so often called myth and what we take for historical reality are very often entwined and that fact alone should give us pause before outright dismissal.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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hey Paul, did I ever tell you the story of the FA of The Drift?
rotten band of rock cutting across the upper parts of that wonderful Yosemite granite,
Eric had been desperate to get gear in, as was apparent by the #4 Camelot placed in a horizontal crack on dirt.
no sh#t, there I was...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 24, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
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The interesting thing is that they are all different. For instance, Christianity didn't pop up independently in multiple locations. As far as I know, no religion has independently flowered in multiple locations. It would have been interesting if the first Europeans to reach the Rocky Mountains found Native Americans practicing Christianity, or any other geographically separated spiritual faith.
The Mormons said the golden plates came from the South American Indians.. The Indians claim Jesus visited them the day after He was hung on the cross.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Dec 24, 2015 - 02:30pm PT
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Love that poem!
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 24, 2015 - 03:10pm PT
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Yeats is greats.
There is a story I heard, no doubt myth, that Yeats was not hired for a teaching position because he misspelled "professor." Says something about academic hiring committees.
hey Paul, did I ever tell you the story of the FA of The Drift?
Yes, and I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now.
Happy Holidays
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 24, 2015 - 03:11pm PT
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Ants, shmants. Read Metamorphosis by Kafka.
Why? Did he build a bridge or fly to the Moon?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 24, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
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The Mayans didn't build crosses. Not one true cross was ever looted from the Aztecs. The truth is that Christianity arose in a small area of the world and spread later. Like all other religions. The Mormons have claimed a lot of things. It would further their cause to put those golden tablets on display.
Every read Black Elk Speaks? Probably my favorite spiritual book of all.
As per Joseph Campbell, he called them myths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 24, 2015 - 05:50pm PT
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As per Joseph Campbell, he called them myths.
Yes, but for Campbell myth meant much more than simply untrue. He saw myth in the Jungian sense as a revelation of the psyche of humanity and perhaps even the universe itself.
He promoted three ideas that are important to the discussion here:
All myth needs to conform to the nature knowledge of a particular culture.
That myth can be read as metaphor that does, in fact, conform to that knowledge yet still reveals the spiritual interests of the psyche.
That myths tend to great similarities couched in the local inflections of cultures, but as a result myths carry a kind of universality.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 24, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
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I can give you the topo... but I'm not responsible for anything that might happen to you...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 24, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3YltnBjqZU
The most sold single of ALL TIME. For your Christmas pleasure..
The words are nice. But the music is what keeps you coming back for more. i'm not a musician, but it was explained to me that this writer added one extra note to each piano cord which is very rare. Seems to give it a bit of melancholy which leaves you wishing for more...
Music,rhythm,vibration, seems to resonate with the heart. Words, for the brain are merely in the passenger seat.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2015 - 08:22pm PT
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Yes ^^^^ the seat of the living entity resides within the heart.
The brain is dull, dry and sterile without the living entity.
There are sound vibrations that can change the DNA.
Modern science has no clue and use violent methods against the material bodies.
They have no real cure.
The real cure is the resonance vibration that revives the living entities real soul within the heart that cures the disease of separation.
"There's no need for God" they say.
And thus separation and disease starts ......
And thus ...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 26, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
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the empirical fact of a thing is usually very powerful convincer... as opposed to speculation and belief...
many smart people believe in a lot of speculation, the smartest of those know when the jig is up, not when a better speculation is proposed, but when a humble observation is made, or perhaps that should be a humbling observation.
the New Testament has many examples of man's speculations becoming empirically f actualized through their faith in God..
To know weather or not the book is true. One needs merely to look at God's methods and humbly experiment within their own conscious the truths proposed by some of the smartest men of all time. try putting their works to work in your life, and humbly ask the Lord for confirmation.
He has been known to be a very powerful convincer :)
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