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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 22, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
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Ed: Economics is a sub-discipline of ecology even if we somehow resist the notion, but remember that ecology is the study of the interactions among organisms and their environment, where as economics studies the factors determining the production and consumption of goods and services, that is, the interactions among humans and their environment (from which the raw products are acquired, including energy).
I’m expecting that JEleazarian is going to be responding to this notion or definition. I hope he does, anyway.
At a graduate level, economics is highly mathematical and oriented to finding or discovering clever tricks in problem sets and finding a small narrow domain of study where one can make a name for themselves.
With regards to the strategic management of firms (other than game theory), economics describes a very broad, aggregated field of activity, which doesn’t help to tell companies how to become superior performers in their industries. Indeed, nothing does alone. Certainly not finance, HRM, production, economics, accounting, marketing, R&D, operations management, technology, or what have you. A good *start* seems to be seeing how all functional perspectives come together to paint a single picture of a competitive environment—and add in a considerable amount of creativity / innovation / entrepreneurship.
To say that it’s a complex situation is simplistic.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 22, 2015 - 06:52pm PT
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If you check you will find that clifff's avatar pic is the same as Jan's. When I first saw clifff's post my mind saw Jan's name under the avatar pic. When I went to post a reply, I couldn't figure out where Jan had gone, at first.
Anyway, there was a good discussion on CBC Radio this morning of bees, their calming influence, the ways they communicate, and how well they cooperate.
And then there is Gabby's viewpoint.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 22, 2015 - 10:09pm PT
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P. , great Russian literature celebrates nihilism. Look at Raskolnikov, "The Nose," "The Overcoat"...
Look at Chekhov plays as well.
Also, Shakespeare's Richard lll ranks right up there with Iago.
True... and in the visual arts from Goya to Nancy Spero and many others. Consider the Judge in "Blood Meridian." How about those Greek Tragedies? What is the meaning of all this art "celebrating" nihilism, violence and inevitable destruction. Read the epilogue to "Blood Meridian" and you are confronted with the painful awareness that the very energy of life itself leads us to violence and hate and evil and these things are eternally available and active in our lives and they are seductive and overwhelming and what is your place in this dystopian world of sorrow and inevitable mortality? Nothing less than to realize what it is you're up against and then stand up and do the right thing. Be virtuous.
And then there is Gabby's viewpoint.
Oh please, go read "The Great Gatsby" and come back and tell me we're the equivalent of ants.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 22, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
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Strange musings by the way, about Clifff's avatar and mine. His shows cliffs in a semi desert environment and mine shows a 14,000' peak in Colorado.
I suppose this says something about science and art and their different perspectives?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2015 - 07:46am PT
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Jan--wonderful quote and picture.
Paul is not destroying the quality of our suffering. ;-D (Thanks, Paul.)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 23, 2015 - 08:16am PT
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Yes, they are quite different.
Gatsby would not know Khlebovvodov from Konstantin Konstantinovich.
Tom Waits would.
For a long time no one knew on what floor L. Vuniukov and his subordinates had disembarked from the elevator. The police came, and there were many awkward questions. A month later, two sealed packages addressed to the head of the Municipal Economic Committee were found on the roof of the car. One package contained a packet of decrees on cigarette paper that recorded reprimands of Comrade Farfurkis or Comrade Khlebovvodov, mostly for displaying individualism and some inexplicable "Zuboism." The second package contained the materials for a report on the plumbing in Tmuskorpion (the conditions were acknowledged to be unsatisfactory) and an application to Accounting for extra pay for high-altitude duty.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 23, 2015 - 09:37am PT
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large parts of Colorado are climatologically arid, interesting to note the decreasing forests in the mountain regions...
one wonders what Jan's avatar image will look like in time
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 23, 2015 - 11:16am PT
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Well, this post is certainly on topic.
The Christians just can't stand the fossil record. We know this, but here we are, in 2015, and Louisiana is reading from the Bible in the biology classroom again. It isn't just Louisiana, many other states are dealing with this. I can list them if you like. It is a nationwide attack on the Science classroom and the Constitution, which protects us from this nonsense.
Slate ran a good story about Louisiana's new law:
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/06/louisiana_science_education_school_boards_principals_and_teachers_endorse.html
A federal judge decided that it is unconstitutional to teach "intelligent design" in the science classroom. This decision is for now the law of the land. The New York Times had a great article about the decision, which was about teaching Intelligent Design in Pennsylvania:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/21/education/judge-rejects-teaching-intelligent-design.html?_r=1
I grew up in the Bible belt, and I learned about evolution in school. There was no Intelligent Design back then. ID is merely an attempt to teach a form of Christianity in the Science classroom.
I will say it plainly: The Biblical account of creation in the Bible is hogwash. A drunk person could have written it.
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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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Dec 23, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
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My son was in the Junior High class in PA that got this whole thing rolling. He thought it was all a joke, but the local fundamentalist community really showed its colors. For a few days a guy in a gorilla suit protested across the street from the school as the kids were getting on the buses to go home.
I was working at a landscape nursery owned by a family of some of the staunchest believers around. Their friends would come in and they'd all commiserate over the atheists in their midst. Although they knew exactly where I stood, they never held it against me. I worked a lot with one of the brothers. He was a Gregg Allman lookalike who talked all day about the End Times Upon Us, while we planted trees.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 23, 2015 - 12:30pm PT
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In answer to Ed, The high mountains of Colorado are not having problems from drought as they get the lions' share of both rain and snow. If the high forests are dwindling, it's because winter temperatures are higher and do not kill off enough of the pine bark beetles.
So far the beetles have not reached this area on the west side of the Maroon Bells near Aspen. When they do, we will end up with more aspen trees which are increasing all over the West.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 23, 2015 - 12:35pm PT
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We have only emerged from a state of constant warfare, from a world of bloodshed and violence, from a world of lies, baseness, and greed, we have not yet washed off the dirt of that world. When we come up against a phenomenon that our reason cannot yet grasp, when all we have at our command is our vast but as yet not assimilated experience, our psychology prompts us to create a model of the phenomenon in our own image.
Our egotism, our anthropocentrism, the thousand years of education by religions and naive philosophers who taught us to trust in our primordial superiority, in our uniqueness, and in our privileged position in the universe - all this suggests that there will be a monstrous psychological shock, an irrational hatred of you, a hysterical fear of the unimaginable possibilities that you present, a feeling of sudden debasement, and a dread that the rulers of nature have been dethroned.
"Is that enough?" asked Eddie in a whisper.
Everyone froze, as if in a photograph.
"I don't know," I said, "It seems a pity."
"It did come out rather well, didn't it?" said Eddie. "But I must stop it. Such an expenditure of brain energy. . . ."
He turned off the humanizer and Farfurkis started whining immediately.
"Comrades! It's impossible to work, what are we doing?"
Lavr Fedotovich expressed his opinion that the examination of Case 72 should be postponed until December of this year in order to give Comrade K. K. Konstantinov time to get back to his permanent residence and return with the appropriate documents.
And a Merry Christmas to all.
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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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Dec 23, 2015 - 01:16pm PT
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And here we are today:
Sylvia Allen, the GOP state Senator from Snowflake, AZ, believes the Earth is 6,000 years old. She will run the state Senate's committee to oversee educational legislation.
Allen also believes in chemtrails and mandatory church attendance.
She has promised to "focus on parents' responsibility in their children's education" -- a dogwhistle for those who advocate for abstinence-only sex education as well as a ban (or limits) on teaching evolution through natural selection as the origin of humankind.
Senate President Andy Biggs on Monday named Allen to lead a committee that acts as a gatekeeper for education-related legislation, such as Common Core and spending. Allen succeeds Sen. Kelli Ward, who resigned last week to run full-time in next year's GOP primary against Sen. John. McCain.
"She understands what Arizona students and parents need in our education system," Biggs said in a prepared statement. "She is a very experienced legislator and I know she will do a wonderful job."
Note that she hasn't actually done anything yet. But they're everywhere, it's like whack-a-mole.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 23, 2015 - 02:09pm PT
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Senate President Andy Biggs on Monday named Allen to lead a committee that acts as a gatekeeper for education-related legislation, such as Common Core and spending. Allen succeeds Sen. Kelli Ward, who resigned last week to run full-time in next year's GOP primary against Sen. John. McCain.
Oh, Man, the Republicans are still a little whacko when it comes to one of their core constituents: Christian Fundamentalism. They appointed Allen to a post of responsibility in education based legislation that comes before the Senate. That is like letting the fox run the hen house.
They are up against The Supreme Court case: Edwards v. Aguillard (1987), although instead of creationsism, they call it Intelligent Design. As can be shown in the emails below, it is a full court press by Christians only.
The Supreme Court, decided that Creationism cannot be taught in public schools, as it would violate the establishment clause. Not much of a stretch. In the case, In support of Aguillard, 72 Nobel prize-winning scientists, 17 state academies of science, and seven other scientific organizations filed amicus briefs that described creation science as being composed of religious tenets. There is little doubt that this is the case. I doubt Sen Allen will follow that ruling. She will keep hacking away at the establishment clause until she finds a way around it, which is what Louisiana just did. The new ID groups will continue to try to circumvent that decision, mainly through more careful wording.
Through an open records request, the writer of the story in Slate found the following emails (since nobody will take the time to read the story):
Through a public records request, I obtained dozens of emails from the Bossier Parish school district that specifically discuss teaching creationism. Shawna Creamer, a science teacher at Airline High School, sent an email to the principal, Jason Rowland, informing him of which class periods she would use to teach creationism. “We will read in Genesis and them [sic] some supplemental material debunking various aspects of evolution from which the students will present,” Creamer wrote.
**In another email exchange with Rowland, a parent had complained that a different teacher, Cindy Tolliver, actually taught that evolution was a “fact.” This parent complained that Tolliver was “pushing her twisted religious beliefs onto the class.” Principal Rowland responded, “I can assure you this will not happen again.”
**Another email was sent by Bossier High School assistant principal Doug Scott to Michael Stacy, a biology teacher at that school. “I enjoyed the visit to your class today as you discussed evolution and creationism in a full spectrum of thought,” Scott wrote. “Thank you for the rich content as you bring various sources to bear in your curriculum.”
I highly recommend that you read the Slate article. It isn't long, and the point is clear. The Louisiana Law is allowing the Bible to be taught in public schools....in the science class. The Bible is allowed to be taught in the home, home schools, and Sunday schools. It isn't like Christians are being muzzled. I will take a snippet from the Pennsylvania Judge to make my point:
Judge Jones, a Republican appointed by President Bush, concluded that intelligent design was not science, and that in order to claim that it is, its proponents admit they must change the very definition of science to include supernatural explanations.
This is an important point. Science does not deal with the Supernatural. If it is addressed in an academic setting, it should be within the theology department. There are many private Christian schools in this country as well. They can also teach whatever they like, and are only beholden to the parents.
The 1987 Supreme Court decision prevented Creationism from being taught in public schools, as a clear violation of the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment. The case was decided by a 7-2 majority. The dissenters were of course our old friends Scalia and Rehnquist.
I wonder what BB has to say about all of this. He seems to be our resident Christian Voice. JE can also chime in, but he seems to be a much more reasonable person.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 23, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
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A viable question is: What was the source religious sentiment or religious experience? What do these terms even mean?
A common misconception (IMO) is the belief that religion and "God" were human inventions to counter existential terror and to try and answer questions about origins per where we came from, tending toward answers that countered our physical puniness and apparent lack of inherent significance.
But there is another angle worth looking at.
In the experiential adventures, one quite naturally begins with their attention fused to objects, or phenomenon that Mind can objectify, typically sounds, sensations (fidgeting from aches or the angst of sitting perfectly still with no texting etc.) feelings, memories, planning, or thinking and analyzing. Over time, the awareness slowly detaches from this content (the domain of science) and becomes centered on the experience of BEING aware, NOT on what awareness can glom onto moment to moment. As the objects of awareness drop away, so does any sense of some autonomous, objective observer HAVING or being aware of any thing, including awareness itself.
Note that when you look up awareness, ALL definitions are predicated on awareness as one thing, and the objects of awareness as some other thing. The experience of raw awareness sans object is not understood and in many cases in not even believed to be possible.
Anyway, once awareness is sufficiently detached from objects, internal and external, and the observer melts away, awareness shifts to what many traditions simply call "presence." The duality between observer and observed has dissolved and this presence is experienced as a kind of unborn and limitless being. Slowly, as one gets deeper into this phenomenon, presence exerts a kind of felt-sense and quality of the numinous that after the fact many seek to objectify by names like God, Allah, and so forth. Many meditation paths avoid trying to objectify the presence and, for example, Zen simply calls it the Dharma. And other names, all accepting that the name is NOT presence itself.
This presence is somehow and on some way the crossroads of the personal and impersonal, what the old Catholic mystics called "the other." It is my impression that many if not most religious and spiritual modalities issued not from the existential concerns mentioned at the start of this post, but rather from certain people having certain experiences with this no-thing presence.
Of course our rational minds will say that all of this is just the brain doing its thing when idling with no task. But this evaluation almost certainly exists between the presence and the non-stuff from which particles and and matter arise - energy, which we can measure but which no one can ever truly objectify or hold up as an object. Same thing with presence.
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2015 - 03:08pm PT
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Base:
I don’t mean to pull your chain. I hear what you’re saying about taking the Bible literally. It seems to be a mistake.
On the other side, however, I wonder how much it’s a mistake to believe in the power of modern day intelligence and science. This morning at my in-laws (I’m bored), I picked up a recent Time magazine which had an article about how China is trying to reverse the effects of the “one child” policy it initiated back in the 70s. Today that policy looks not only wrong but it looks like it has caused more problems than it was supposed to solve.
As you know, I’m somewhat of an academic (teaching in college, some research, Ph.D. and stuff), and so I’m somewhat familiar with really smart people. It seems to me (and maybe a few other pundits) that the great intelligence of smart people cannot solve the problems of contemporary life. All big problems in contemporary life look to be larger than the abilities of the smartest people on the planet to solve them. I’d say more often than not their attempts to solve those “problems” (economies, health care, poverty, wars, political conflicts, etc.) by smart people has lead to unintended consequences that present larger “problems” than they were meant to solve.
Perhaps we should simply say that myths (of all sorts, even the modern ones) shouldn’t be taken too concretely or all too seriously.
People with advanced education may be smart, but it’s highly questionable (empirically) whether they can affect the changes they want. As is often said of Ph.D.s who teach business (like me): “if you’re so )*&^$% smart, how come you’re not rich?”
Don’t you think that what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Should you be throwing rocks at glass houses?
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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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Dec 23, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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The intelligent design movement started back in the early ’90s with a lot of fanfare and high hopes. The leading organization, the Discovery Institute in Seattle, found some influential allies at first (William F. Buckley perhaps being the most notable), but as the years went by and no research ever emerged from their self-funded ‘labs’, the movement has shrunk to nothing more than a public relations firm for the promotion of creationist books.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnfarrell/2015/12/20/how-creationism-has-evolved-since-the-dover-trial/
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2015 - 04:34pm PT
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So the point is.
Everyone that designs something is unintelligent ......
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 23, 2015 - 07:31pm PT
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tell me we're the equivalent of ants
It depends on how you choose to compare.
Taking the long view, it is unlikely we will ever pull even. We are headed in the wrong direction.
Humans are one of the four extant hominid genera.
How many hominid genera were there a few million years ago? Quite a few more than four.
See 1.2.3 Fossil in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
How many ant genera are there today?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ant_genera_(alphabetical);
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
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The advanced civilizations on this planet millions of years ago cremated the bodies and still do to this day.
Modern western material science never thinks very well.
They just guess and conclude that there is no need for intelligence.
In the future "we" (only us so called scientists) will know.
Until then "No One Knows".
No One .....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 23, 2015 - 10:38pm PT
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It depends on how you choose to compare.
Taking the long view, it is unlikely we will ever pull even.
Yep, it's true. Just read an article today on the Alex Jones Insanity Forum of evidence it was actually a species of ants that planned and constructed the Golden Gate Bridge as well as further irrefutable evidence ants had been to the moon and returned sometime before 1936. This would make their moon landing decades before any miscreant humans, lying as usual, claimed that achievement. Ant superiority was further proved by Jones through a series of IQ tests in which ants excelled in both math and science as well as language skills, many of them fluent in dolphin. Ants rule.
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