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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 27, 2015 - 11:18am PT
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the New Testament has many examples of man's speculations becoming empirically f actualized through their faith in God..
Your problem here, and it is not unique to Christianity, is that everything revolves around one book. We all know about the miracles of Jesus and God's revelations to Moses....from the Bible, and the Bible only. The problem is that they are not independently verifiable. There is no empirical evidence. If the Bible were to suddenly vanish from the Earth, there would be nothing to tie down the Christians. They would wander off. The same notion applies equally to other religions. They are belief-laden. There is no verifiable independent proof. As I said before, when the first European explorers showed up in the Americas, they did not find Christians. They found a variety of beliefs.
The similarities (and differences) in religion are interesting. You can look at various faiths honestly if you aren't beholden to a single one. Joseph Campbell studied that. He looked at all of the myths and faiths that he could find: comparative mythology and comparative religion. He studied ALL faiths, and compared them, just as a comparative anatomist compares anatomy of different species.
It is a useful area of study. Mythology and religion have played a huge part in the development of human civilization. You would be hard pressed to find a significant civilization that didn't have myth and or religion. There are similarities in most religions, as well as basic differences. It is, in my mind, a necessary field of study if you are going to study humans. It would be foolish to ignore it all. Myth and religion have helped shape who we are now, despite the veracity of any of it.
There is the problem of death, a recurring theme in religion. Perhaps it is the most important recurring topic in religion. Humans are one of the few species that is able to contemplate its own demise, deeply. The notion that upon your death, your soul, or who you are, dies as well, is a scary notion. Most religions address this. The notion that your soul is immortal, and will live forever, is a far more attractive situation than one that says lights out, you are worm food.
That is a common feature in most religions. It isn't evidence of the afterlife. It is just a common belief. If there is anything that should be covered in this thread, it should be the difference between belief and evidence. People have a hard time with this as they cling to their sacred notions.
Step back. Look at your beliefs carefully. Evaluate evidence. Be critical of your own beliefs. This is easy to do with science, but if you do it to your faith, you risk burning in hell, or coming back as a dung beetle.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 28, 2015 - 11:09am PT
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There is the problem of death, a recurring theme in religion. Perhaps it is the most important recurring topic in religion. Humans are one of the few species that is able to contemplate its own demise, deeply. The notion that upon your death, your soul, or who you are, dies as well, is a scary notion. Most religions address this. The notion that your soul is immortal, and will live forever, is a far more attractive situation than one that says lights out, you are worm food.
It’s a mistake to think that mythology and religion are born of fear alone. What mythology does is to make profound those inevitabilities so grave and constant in our lives that they demand some sense of meaning for the sake of consolation. I don’t believe anybody here believes the human psyche should get along without consolation or reconciliation.
When a loved one dies something has left them, they are not animate in the way they were before, what has gone? What’s missing? It’s not the flesh as that sits before us rotting. Why does the lifeless body not remain animated? Where has that animation gone? What is it? Do we simply abandon what remains? What really has vanished when someone dies? An elaborate ritual including, often, an elaborate burial seems to help. Only human beings with their enhanced sense of consciousness participate in the notion of burials with grave gear and elaborate tombs from ship burials to pyramids.
Religion takes this problem and lends us a sense placation and resolution. It does this largely through myth and its necessary cousin, ritual. Art is the accompaniment to ritual and it’s important to note that mythology, universally, is the mother of the arts. Religious rituals that make profound the difficulties of “being” run from birth to death. They encapsulate every aspect of human experience and mortality is only one aspect.
I doubt anyone writing on this thread would be in favor of re-plastering the Sistine Chapel ceiling and replacing it with a periodic chart of the elements. In Michelangelo’s work is an insight, through the aesthetic, of what it is to be human. Not as a physical master plan of empirical certainty, but as a mythological, metaphorical key to the profound nature of our existence.
Whether or not you think of our existence as profound it is at the very least rare for this solar system and our ability to give reconciling sense to what is inevitable in our lives is a great achievement for us.
When science has realized all it can those grave and constant inevitabilities will still be with us and we will still need to find a way to cope. If you can cope through the certainty of precise knowing more power to you. Most need more.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 11:27am PT
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Step back. Look at your beliefs carefully. Evaluate evidence.
That's what you really should be doing.
Be critical of your own beliefs. This is easy to do with science,
but if you do it to your faith, you risk burning in hell, or coming back as a dung beetle.
Such sweeping of the hand bullsh!t ....
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 28, 2015 - 02:07pm PT
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Base:
You don’t see the paradigm- / narrative- / myth-in-progress that you’re using.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Dec 28, 2015 - 04:46pm PT
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Thanks sycorax!
After practicing for 2 1/2 months, I came down with bronchitis and laryngitis and couldn't sing in the concerts, :(
Next year.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
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Base, Enjoyed the post.
Especially -
"Step back. Look at your beliefs carefully. Evaluate evidence. Be critical of your own beliefs."
Seems like good and arguably universal advice.
There's nothing necessarily wrong with having faith that a religion is valid/true. That's why it's called faith because you believe it even though you don't have any proof. You wouldn't have faith If you had proof.
Myths/religion/archetypes can all be useful as tools for exploring the psyche. Doesn't mean they're real just 'cuz it seems like they're "real" in your head.
Stuff I believe based on observation, experience, and contemplation (disclaimer: doesn't mean it's true).
Don't believe everything you observe. Don't believe everything you feel or think. Delight in finding out you're wrong so that you can bring your models closer to reality over time. Bring more to the table than you take away. Ask for help when you need it and give help when you can. Nobody knows the Truth. We all just make sh#t up and hope for the best. You can't really tell much by what a person believes you can tell a lot by what they say and do. Seems like the only way to figure how useful a belief/faith/philosophy is is by observing the outcomes produces through people who practice them.
Paul, liked what you said about art.
And, art? It is a demonstration of the anima/animus of an individual that has been created in a format that is available for the experience of others. It is part of the commonwealth that humanity has to draw from to explore the outer and inner world. As such it deserves respect and conservation even if it doesn't happen to be our cup of tea.
Seems pretty simple. Seems like we make it way too complicated.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
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Nobody knows the Truth.
Then why are you a hypocrite trying to make an absolute truth ....
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2015 - 06:55pm PT
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Werner, Didn't say I did know the Truth with a capital T. You don't and anybody who says they do don't. I'm a radical agnostic - I know I don't know and I know that you don't either.
I like a lot of the mystical stuff, too. I really like a lot of your posts from that experience. Because we have "mystical" experiences does it mean they exist in physical reality outside of our mind? Even if they don't doesn't mean they aren't powerful and useful.
I'm making up sh#t just like you and everyone else is. Check out the model, use it, and get back to me on how useful it is for you or not. If you look closely some sh#t does stick better than other sh#t when you throw it up on the wall of observable reality.
Here's my "we all make sh#t up" model from a previous post.
"Apes throw their sh#t. They can throw a lot of it and they can throw it a long ways.
We've evolved to the point we can invent our own sh#t, a lot of it and in great variety. We become convinced that our sh#t is better than everybody else's sh#t and that they're stupid or evil if they don't believe our shift is the best sh#t.
We are so creative that we deceive ourselves into believing that we didn't just make this sh#t up and it is actually reality.
There's a guy who once said that by their fruits we shall know them. We could make up less sh#t and just make a point of showing up and being useful."
PS I just made this sh#t up.
PPS Science does appear to have the greatest intellectual rigor and come the closest to developing models that match what we are able to observe about reality. But, hey, that's just me.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
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I know I don't know and I know that you don't either.
You must be the impersonator god to make claims you know what people on this planet know .....
Every living entity knows the truth that is within them ......
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
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Werner, Do you claim that you know the absolute Truth? I don't; I'm just having fun throwing in and seeing where things go. Also, the stuff I threw in has been really useful for me even though I don't know if they're true or not. So, the idea is they might end being useful for some other folks, too.
"Every living entity knows the truth that is within them ......"
Inner experiences and feelings are what they are. They are subjective and are experienced directly by an individual. How can I judge what someone feels or experiences? I can only speak to what they say or do and should do so very carefully and only if the is good reason to do so. When a person makes claims about the nature of external and observable reality that's a different story. Ya gotta have some meat to your claim; ya gotta be able to back yourself up.
I don't know what you know or don't know, feel, or experience. Your actions that I know of are admirable. You know a lot lot of great stuff that has done a lot of great things for a great deal of people in great need! Thanks! :-)
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
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You make big claims and then back down.
You should really think clearly with what you're trying to do.
Be really really serious with this stuff.
It's your life that you are playing with ....
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2015 - 07:35pm PT
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I am perfectly serious. I am clear that death can take me and/or anyone in my life in any moment and I need to be as complete as I can possibly be with everyone and everything.
I didn't make claims; I stated my thoughts, observations, and positions. I've spent some time with them and have observed the outcomes of using the models. I'm satisfied they're basically sound, though certainly not finished and I'm not backing down from them.
It appears to me that the utility of a philosophy or religion can be reasonably determined by observing those who diligently practice them.
Look at the courage to choose a conscious and compassionate path by the Dalai Lama -
"He chuckled when I told him that his younger brother thought his high office was past its sell-by date. Then, quickly becoming serious, he added that all religious institutions, including the Dalai Lama, developed in feudal circumstances. Corrupted by hierarchical systems, they began to discriminate between men and women; they came to be compromised by such cultural spinoffs as Sharia law and the caste system. But, he said, ‘‘time change; they have to change. Therefore, Dalai Lama institution, I proudly, voluntarily, ended.’’
~ from The Last Dalai Lama?, NYT, 11/30/2015
The ‘‘world picture,’’ as he saw it, was bleak. People all over the world were killing in the name of their religions. Even Buddhists in Burma were tormenting Rohingya Muslims. This was why he had turned away from organized religion, engaged with quantum physics and started to emphasize the secular values of compassion. It was no longer feasible, he said, to construct an ethical existence on the basis of traditional religion in multicultural societies.
~ from The Last Dalai Lama?, NYT, 11/30/2015
Seems like a philosophy that has utility.
May there be something there that's useful for you. May all of us be more conscious, kind, and useful. May all of us act in ways that diminish ignorance and suffering.
Werner, Can you be more specific about the parts you have an issue with and what the issues are? Then we can converse!
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 29, 2015 - 09:21am PT
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Mark Force: May there be something there that's useful for you. May all of us be more conscious, kind, and useful. May all of us act in ways that diminish ignorance and suffering.
All of those things are biases, Mark. Who’s to say what is conscious, kind, useful, ignorant, or suffering? If you follow Buddhist precepts (another belief system), then you might have heard that all of those things are interpretations . . . not good, not bad, just interpretations, theories, abstractions, models, definitions, and the like.
Is there suffering? Well, there appears to be. Is there consciousness? There appears to be. Is there ignorance, kindness, usefulness, ignorance? There would appear to be. But who’s to say what any of those things actually are? We’re only going to get into arguments by attempting to pin down or finalize any of those things. In the end, this might lead a person to the notion that no thing is substantial or serious. As MH2 has said in another thread recently, all such things might as well be feathers in the air. We are fighting with pillows.
Nothing is really happening. It just seems like it. Everything is *like* a dream. Everything is completely open-ended, absent, spontaneous, and unity. (Weird, huh?)
Of course we can talk, but in the last analysis (I think you’ll note on many levels), nothing is really happening around here.
When one gets a glimpse of how everything is inextricably connected, then it’s sort of like watching a TV: there are all those things seemingly moving around, great drama, emotions welling-up, and concepts swirling all around, but actually nothing is happening other than light. And as Largo has attempted to point out repeatedly to us, we aren’t sure what the hell that is, either.
Everything is a puzzle. To “solve” the puzzles, one must transcend them (as it were). But they are fun to work on, aren’t they? But they really don’t have any final meaning to them. It’s like climbing . . . fun, but fundamentally useless.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 29, 2015 - 10:29am PT
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"Apes throw their sh#t. They can throw a lot of it and they can throw it a long ways.
That is funny. I watched something on the tube a while back where people were in a forest with a lot of monkeys in the trees.
The monkeys seemed to delight in pissing on people as well as hucking their feces at them.
Mike. Please explain this:
You don’t see the paradigm- / narrative- / myth-in-progress that you’re using.
Feel free to use small words. Speak as you would to a small child, or a Golden Retriever.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2015 - 10:33am PT
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Mikel, reading your post all I can say is "Oi!"
But, then I'm apparently not as smart or deep as you are. You consistently allude to a deep insight, understanding, or knowledge that is beyond our grasp and therefornot worth explaining.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 29, 2015 - 10:36am PT
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but actually nothing is happening other than light. And as Largo has attempted to point out repeatedly to us, we aren’t sure what the hell that is, either.
This isn't true. We know a lot about light.
Mark Force, MikeL doesn't believe in anything. It takes a while to get used to it.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2015 - 10:48am PT
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but actually nothing is happening other than light.
Ok, as that was posted by itself it grabbed my attention.
Really? What is your position based upon other than you just made that sh#t up?
If you want to make a grand statement about the nature of the universe try "nothing is happening but infinite binary interaction and combination of positive and negative charges (forces)." Science will give you support, it more closely fits observation, and you won't sound so silly.
Mark Force, MikeL doesn't believe in anything. It takes a while to get used to it.
That's pretty weird. Oh yeah, MikeL considers himself a Solipsist. Those are people who believe that the only thing that exists is themselves. My five and seven year old grandsons used to believe that, too, but they're now getting over it.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 29, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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Me: You don’t see the paradigm- / narrative- / myth-in-progress that you’re using.
Base: Mike. Please explain this:
Naive realism. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism_(psychology);
Logical positivism. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_positivism
Base, we’re all making assumptions about what’s real and what isn't real. Those assumptions constitute paradigms, models, stories, myths. Everyone seems to have one that they hold dear to—perhaps even those of us who are favoring no paradigm at all.
Science has theirs. Religions have theirs, too. Yada yada.
Self-reflection (full awareness) seems to be the most eminent capability beings have. Coming to understand who and what “you” (sic) are is what wisdom revolves around—not so much what things in the world are.
Mark Force:
You can call me anything if it helps you understand. I’d say that I don’t know anything other than my own existence as experience. (How about you? What are you sure of?)
There’s no “deep insight” if there is nothing that can be grasped onto. If there is any insight, it’s more that all the so-called sh#t (your word) that everyone throws around (i.e., beliefs) is just that, and nothing more.
As for “actually nothing is happening other than light,” tell me . . . what is it that you actually see with your eyes only—without your imaginative interpretations? The eye only perceives light, I believe.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Dec 29, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
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Of course we can talk, but in the last analysis (I think you’ll note on many levels), nothing is really happening around here
I agree. And that's OK. Anyone who takes this seriously needs to stand back and take a deep breath and relax. Or meditate.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 29, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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I agree. And that's OK. Anyone who takes this seriously needs to stand back and take a deep breath and relax. Or meditate.
Truth, although following the forum here relieves the stress of dealing with Cal football.
John
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