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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 12:18pm PT
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"If someone posits an idea that is without substantive evidence and then creates a surrounding morality predicating laws that must be obeyed by the general population of a given society, then I would say there is an obligation to prove the "reality" of that idea. Theists have an obligation to prove the existence of God for precisely the above reasons."
"If I declare that aliens from another galaxy had visited me and left me with a book of laws that I swear they left me and we had all better obey these laws including the imprisonment of all right handed individuals. Don't you think I'd have an obligation to prove the reality of my experience?" Paul R, 2009
Couldn't agree more.
Look how sensible you were in 2009!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=760296&tn=360
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 13, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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btw, the two books, Amythia and Masks of God have what to do with each other? ANS Pretty much nothing.
IF you read them you wouldn't say that and the idea isn't even entirely new with Campbell and, in fact, goes back at least to G. Vico.
The first of the quotes by me was a joke the second a valid question. Like the aesthetic, spiritual experience cannot be purely subjective, it must have some commonality as its origin is a common source: the human mind.
Look how sensible you were in 2009!
No more than I am now! I've alway said I stand with the atheists at least in terms of a participating deity. I would have once described myself as an anti theist but realize the error in that. What I stand against is the certainty of those advocating for science and the denial of what continues to be a staggering mystery in the sure sense that science will solve that mystery. What I've come to see while posting on these threads over the years is the the need for consolation through belief isn't the plain foolishness I once thought it was and in fact it seems a human necessity. You might do well to realize the same thing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 01:10pm PT
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No more than I am now!
You ARE incorrigible!
I would have once described myself as an anti theist but realize the error in that. -Paul R
What, you're saying you are not anti-theist with respect to the God of ISIS?!
Is that what you're saying for the record?
"What I stand against is the certainty of those advocating for science and the denial of what continues to be a staggering mystery in the sure sense that science will solve that mystery." -Paul R
And for the, what? 100th time now? no science type worth his salt says this. You describe here a cartoon figure. lol
And for the 100th time, nobody I know doesn't recognized the components of value of religion.
What seems to upset you is (a) any critique of religion or (b) interest/ambition (eg, on the part of innovators or problem solvers or social critics) to bring innovation to the space of which it is a part in the hopes ultimately of best practices.
We will not sit idly by or be still and be the fall guy or punching bag for those of superstitons or narrow-mindedness when it comes to advancing both science education and post-religious belief.
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Norton
Social climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 01:22pm PT
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the Scientific Method seems to be humanity's best means of solving the riddles and mysteries of that which we do not yet the answers for, doesn't it?
I am not aware of any prominent scientist who believes that all mysteries will ultimately
be solved, that would be a very egoist stance to take.....
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 13, 2015 - 01:23pm PT
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With regard to God or gods of any kind I don't think I have any way to know. What you disagree with in regard to Islam or Isis is a political action that is entirely human and predicated on human foibles. If not how do you explain all the believers of all the religions in the world who are living peacefully? Take away religion and people will find some other excuse to hate each other as it seems to be the nature of our race.
Reminds me of the Judge: "There will always be war because young men love it and old men love it in them."
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 13, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
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the Scientific Method seems to be humanity's best means of solving the riddles and mysteries of that which we do not yet the answers for, doesn't it?
But is it enough to solve as solving doesn't necessarily bring reconciliation?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 01:26pm PT
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Well obviously it's entirely human. It's not muskrat or bumble bee, sheesh.
But the problem solving lies above the level of "human". One component of this problem solving is the elimination of a backwards 2000 year old pseudo-ideology (aka Abrahamic theology).
How do you eat an elephant. One bite at a time. Some are solving the theology problem. Others are working of course on the political side of it.
Ask yourself: What would Joseph Campbell say? You know he was a Stars Wars fan. He'd be disappointed with you I think for not showing more obvious support - much more! - for Skywalker and the Great Cause.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 13, 2015 - 01:30pm PT
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I don't think religion has much to do with it the problem is simply a sense of injured merit.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
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"Take away religion and people will find some other excuse to hate each other" -Paul R
Exactly.
But at least then it won't be fantasy-set and on that basis there will be greater chance - imo, much greater chance - (a) of problem solving on a reasoned basis; (b) of best practices on a reasoned basis.
Case closed.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sep 13, 2015 - 03:07pm PT
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Really? What world are you living in in which the only fantasy is religion and all other disputes are defined by logic?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 03:49pm PT
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So perhaps this philosophy of yours serves a useful function: armed with it, you can lie back, observe and not get involved?
J Campbell urged us: despite the setbacks and injustices we see and experience all around us do not withdraw but instead participate - roll up your sleeves and do something.
.....
Recall Sagan from Cosmos #13. He was reflecting on the 1000 year period of Darkness after the Greek Ionian period. He noted no where in the preserved scrolls from the Alexandrian Library was there any evidence of the scientists (the natural philosophers) at the time questioning the social / moral issues of the day (e.g., slavery). He made his point with something like... The age of the stars was questioned, the morality of slavery was not.
That was his way of urging science types in the know to not limit themselves just in the barest of facts but to get involved in the arts and humanities and to get involved in the current affairs of civil society large and small and not just to leave it to others, the career politicians and entertainers.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Sep 13, 2015 - 03:54pm PT
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I will repost the poem I posted here at a later date on another thread with some minor edits.
-bushman
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 13, 2015 - 06:01pm PT
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JL:
How about that which we cannot see, such as consciousness,
Here you make the mistake you accuse others of. The word 'consciousness' is a part of our mental map of the world around us. It isn't, as you put it, the territory.
If you claim that experience is somehow not a physical and biological phenomenon you need to be clear on what the difference is. Words will not establish the distinction by themselves. You need evidence.
In the meantime a dream is activity in the brain accompanied by rapid eye movements. Your experience of the dream is biological, too, as is the brain activity that generates your feelings on the matter and your posting contrary opinions.
Language is a powerful tool and you should take more care with it.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 06:31pm PT
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that which we cannot see, such as consciousness,
Every living entity can "see" consciousness with their third eye .....
Also modern science at its best (rolls eyes) ....
Forget the soap and bath gels! A Massachusetts company says spraying live bacteria on your skin is all you need to keep clean.
Chemical engineer and MIT grad Dave Whitlock says he hasn't showered in 12 years.
He believes showering strips the skin of healthy bacteria -- so much so, that he founded a company and came up with Mother Dirt.
It's a bottle of live bacteria you spray on your skin twice a day in place of showering.
Whitlock says the spray is odorless and feels like water.
A small bottle is $49 on the company's website.
http://store.aobiome.com/product/the-mother-dirt-bundle/ |
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
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He believes showering strips the skin of healthy bacteria
Not only that but it can strip the skin of Vitamin D-- which I did not know until relatively recently.
I still shower but limit the use of soap only to crotch and underarms . Your personal micro biome extends to your skin and I want to keep those little fellas around .
I've trained them to alert me as an early warning system when and if anything tries to sneak up on me.
Thugs stay away when I walk through downtown alley ways.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
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So it proves my point all along.
American gross material mechanistic consciousness brainwashed scientists are sterile ......
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sep 13, 2015 - 09:03pm PT
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I have a soft spot in my big heart for those little guys.
No way will I callously wash them down the drain like WBrown does.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 13, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
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Gen. Bradley's words below will become more prevalent than ever in the coming days.... (Cragman)
Stop tantalizing us, Cragman. What's going to happen?
The Rapture?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 13, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
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Now let's consider our description of how that the cell produces that list of proteins. It is vastly longer than the actual list... we'd say this system has a large degree of complexity.
Ed
Well I didn't see DMT give yours the happy face? Would you say my examples of the seed or the fetus fits within your descriptions?
Could we say human emotions are at the pinnacle of complexity?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 13, 2015 - 10:51pm PT
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Ed, Thanks for the Arvix's link. I'm still trying to get through that PDF.
In truth, Hamiltonians are sets of rules for dynamical evolution, and in the arbitrary nonequilibrium scenario, the probability of being at a given location in phase space at time t clearly can depend strongly on where the system was at some earlier moment. There is, however, a tempting special case to consider even when the Boltzmann distribution does not apply: in circumstances where h(x, t) is periodic, that is, where h(x, t) = h(x, t + 2π/ω) for some frequency ω,
So can we say ice or steam fits this scenario since earlier they were water?
Progressing further, might we say that when a man is "steaming pissed" or "warmfully in love" also fit this scenario?
Do you know if anyone has recorded a temperature difference between when a man is feeling normal compared to when he really mad, compared to when he's really happy?
Seems like raising angst(Testosterone), raises the heartbeats, and temperature? Which cause the body to "get'er done!"! Moving the nonequilibrium? So maybe sitting still, solemnly could cause this too??
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