Any Christian Pentacostals in the ST crowd?


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Dingus Milktoast

Jan 23, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
"Only God can prove He exists. "

Who told you this?


Trad climber
fresno, ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
I'm not sue any man can "Prove" God exists to another on his own merit or academic prowess.

I do however believe that God has the ability to prove himself, beyond all question to man. He has done it for me. I have seen him do it for others, much more hardened and skeptical than the guys on this site. Ive seen supernatural changes in lives that go beyond any explanation of science, philosophy, psychology or other creation of man.

I can only bear witness to the change in my own life and the things I have witnessed first hand.


Trad climber
Apple Valley, California
Jan 23, 2009 - 07:39pm PT
Hey Micronut;
I believe that "Evidence that demands a verdict" was written by,
Josh Mcdowell.
It's a very good book.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
Jan 23, 2009 - 07:59pm PT
If God doesn't have the ability to prove himself then how can he be omnipotent? How can he be God?

There are philosophical proofs that exist as ontological reality. Numerical relationships that describe the phenomenological world with certain accuracy are an example. These numerical relationships that describe things like the area of a circle or square or whatever they may, these are transcendent truths that are so exactly the same in all human experience as to be the same certain experience to all and therefore must exist outside the mind alone.

These relationships must be objectively real outside the realm of human experience because of their transcendent universal nature which can be proved by the simplest measurement.

These relationships will exist after we are all gone and after all humanity is gone as well.

If the world were nothing but illusion this would not be true. If personal subjective experience was all human beings knew this would not be true as well.

The sleep of reason produces monsters.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
Jan 23, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
C.S. Lewis was a shill for Christianity. But he said that either Christ was God or a liar or a madman. The idea that Christ was simply a good spiritual guy, a kind of prophet, or deeply religious character was absolutely unacceptable to Lewis. How you gonna prove Christ was God?

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2009 - 09:33pm PT
Hard words weschrist; but you have a point and as I mentioned up thread this is a question that confounds many faithful people.

here is a fairly standard Christian answer (I'm not endorsing it)

But your portrait of karma is a little off base. Karma, as properly understood is not God's punishment. It is merely a reflection of our own souls back at us. In Hinduism this whole experience of material and sensual life must be understood first and foremost as an illusion. Something like a dream, or a nightmare more properly. If you are devoured by a tiger in a dream you aren't destroyed in reality, but if you are at all sensitive you are changed from the experience.

Hindus measure time in billions and trillions of years and lives are understood to be repeating cycles, millions of times, birth, old age, disease and death. The soul cycles through over and over. From the human perspective much seems "evil". From the eternal perspective this temporal reality is something like a reform school. As you think, as you act, as you relate to reality, so you will see reality. We make our own beds, now we must live in them. God's love and our love of God is the foundation and destination of all of reality. be patient.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
Have posted on this thread. Much posted here includes individuals life philosophies et al.

I am living a life right now that is so difficult I could quit ....almost did today....on God.

The life, theories, etc. spewed on this thread are good sounding.

But when your entire world crashes down around you, one needs to think and process the hey out of the disaster.

That's where the jesus thing on faith kicks in.

It's either there and you have faith .... or not. I choose to believe....sometimes I feel like I may die doing it, but I do.

Yikes ! Sorry if this does not make sense to some. :D
del cross

Jan 23, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
Micronut, I just read the first 5 chapters of "Beyond the Cosmos" by Hugh Ross.

Contrary to what you stated above Hugh Ross does indeed use string theory in his book . He first states that the 11-dimensional character of string theory has been recently (1996) proven, then later states that it is supported by overwhelming evidence. Later still he claims that due to Godel's theorem no theory of everything can ever be found!

Ross also explicity states that modern physics provides "a direct scientific proof...for God's existence".

The gist of these first several chapters are that he goes about loosely explaining modern cosmology in a somewhat sloppy fashion and occasionally tacks on a reference to where God fits in. His basic idea seems to be that God lives in the seven curled up dimensions described by string theory.

Not surprisingly I found these first few dozen pages pretty disappointing. I'm not sure I can read any more of it. The guy is a quack. Maybe I'll take a look at the book by C.S. Lewis. I loved his novels when I was a kid. Back when I was being force-fed catechism my mother was pushing me to read "Mere Christianity". I am already aquainted with Lewis's "False Trichotomy" that you mentioned above, but hopefully his book will be a big improvement over Ross's work. Hard to imagine how it could fail to be.
del cross

Jan 23, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
Lynne -- that's the kind of thing that I was alluding to earlier. It takes more than just words. I mean, think about it: What could you possibly read or hear that would cause you to lose your faith? Is there anything anyone could tell you?

Something big has to happen.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
valley center, ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
del cross, nothing I read or hear could cause me to lose faith in jesus. Life and living it each day is the challenge of belief. We be good so far .... today was horrendous in challenge.

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jan 23, 2009 - 10:53pm PT
The evidence for God and for Christ is what it has always been, individual eyewitnesses. "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands concerning the word of life -- the life was made manifest, and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us -- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ." [1 John 1:1-3]

The reaction of the skeptics is also what it's always been. As to the Resurrection: "So the other disciples told [Thomas] 'We have seen the Lord.' But he said to them, 'Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.'" [John 20:25] In other words, you say you saw it, but it's so incredible, I can't believe you unless I see it myself.

I find that an honest response, and I think Jesus does, too. After all, he doesn't zap Thomas; he appears to him and shows him the proof he asks. God doesn't despise doubters, and neither should those of us who believe because of our personal experience. Jesus confronts honest doubt with Himself -- for those who desire to know Him. In that sense, therefore, I disagree with the idea that God cannot prove His existence. Rather, He chooses not to reveal Himself to some who will not acknowledge their need of Him and His salvation, and who therefore don't seek Him.

Even there, though, we need to be careful. Jesus revealed Himself mostly to those who knew they were unrighteous, but not always, else, why appear to Saul of Tarsus?

The reaction to speaking in tongues is also unchanged. "And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, 'What does this mean?' But others mocking said, 'They are filled with new wine.'" [Acts 2:12-13] That reaction is also understandable. Paul the Apostle warned the Corinthians of undisciplined speaking in tongues throughout 1 Cor. 14, in particular. It's hardly surprising that an outsider hearing what sounds like unintelligable babbling would think he was seeing and hearing only fakery and nonsense.

The proof there is also experiential. I have spiritual gifts, but neither tongues nor their interpretation are mine. Still, I have enough life experience with the Holy Spirit in the 35 years since my conversion to know -- for myself -- that the gift is real. It's really the aspect of spiritual gifts of healing that I understood this thread to be about from Rockermike's original post.

Anyway, as I said earlier, the choice in belief is yours -- for now. I can hardly blame you for disbelieving me or the others whose experience differs from yours, but I also cannot refrain from urging you to seek the LORD while he may be found.

Further affiant sayeth not.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jan 23, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
Paul wrote

"The proof of god's existence or non existence is the responsibility of the theist not the atheist"

It's nobody's responsibility. Whose responsibility is it to prove orgasms exist?

It's merely the quest of somebody who has never had one.

Say you are a character in a dream, how would you prove it?

Folks say an omnipotent God would could prove God exists. It's pretty obvious from the mystery of this world that either no God exists or God has zero will to make God's existence obvious.

Maybe that would spoil the game eh?

Big walls and offwidth are pure suffering, yet we do it for the adventure and experience.

LIfe is like that too. This isn't a "play" planet.


del cross

Jan 23, 2009 - 11:03pm PT
Great post, John.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
If someone posits an idea that is without substantive evidence and then creates a surrounding morality predicating laws that must be obeyed by the general population of a given society, then I would say there is an obligation to prove the "reality" of that idea. Theists have an obligation to prove the existence of God for precisely the above reasons.

If I declare that aliens from another galaxy had visited me and left me with a book of laws that I swear they left me and we had all better obey these laws including the imprisonment of all right handed individuals. Don't you think I'd have an obligation to prove the reality of my experience?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
All democracies must be mediated by a bill of rights lest we suffer the tyranny of the mob.

Mountain climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 04:35pm PT
Too much to read all the above posts, but, to quote Voltaire,
"If God did not exist it would be necessary to invent Him."

Your interpretation of this quote may vary but I am struck by the sarcasm in it.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 04:50pm PT
Our bill of rights is ultimately based on self evident truths, too bad god isn't a self evident truth. Wouldn't that make all this a lot easier?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
Deist perhaps, Christian never in the orthodox sense. Jefferson had more in common with Hadrian than he did Christ. Have you ever wondered why D. C. is filled with Roman and Greek Architecture? The Supreme Court, Capitol Building, even theWhite House all take offs on pagan Roman temples. Jefferson was no Pentecostal. He had more in common with Orpheus.

Trad climber
Apple Valley, California
Jan 24, 2009 - 05:23pm PT
Christ is either, the LORD, a LUNATIC, or a LIER.
For me, after examining the evidence that I have researched,
I believe He is the LORD.
I am a simple man which I will admit to,
But to me, I wake up every morning, and I see all around me,
ample proof of Gods existance.

I do not claim to be a holier than thou person either,
as I know that I have many faults that are not pleasing to Gods Eye. I do try to follow the 2 Commandments to the best of my ability though. (NO, I don't always succeed. :) )

paul roehl

Boulder climber
Jan 24, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
The Pantheon was built in the second century CE well into the Roman Imperial period not the republic. It was built by Hadrian and much imitated in the Renaissance.

I didn't say Jefferson worshipped multiple gods. I was simply pointing out his and the founding fathers delight in the idea of reason which the Pantheon and other Roman buildings are based on. My argument against "Religious Faith" is based on the same reason as opposed to your argument which is based on emotion and subjective experience.
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