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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Isn't this poetry and storytelling "mythopoetic"?
However, experiments and observations show that Einstein's description accounts for several effects that are unexplained by Newton's law, such as minute anomalies in the orbits of Mercury and other planets. General relativity also predicts novel effects of gravity, such as gravitational waves, gravitational lensing and an effect of gravity on time known as gravitational time dilation. Many of these predictions have been confirmed by experiment, while others are the subject of ongoing research. For example, although there is indirect evidence for gravitational waves, direct evidence of their existence is still being sought by several teams of scientists in experiments such as the LIGO and GEO 600 projects.
i use the bible just like Einstein used newtons notes. i read some, try it, use the truths to make some predictions, and the experiments are always a success. That is when I ask in Jesus' name of course.
THIS is the real scientific method ; )
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Melville (a Transcendentalist, mind you) harkens back to a famous fire and brimstone East Coast preacher before his time. This preacher would give a sermon to rile up whalers going out to sea. Later in Moby-Dick the real Melville (Ishmael) in the whaling chapters goes into the SCIENCE of whether Jonah could have survived, given tides and location.
Cormac Mccarthy uses a similar device in "Blood Meridian." The firebrand preacher early in the story is immediately and falsely discredited by the consummate evil, the judge. And what is the judge in his large size and absolutely pale white skin but Melville's whale, the source, focal point, the terrible Iago, the mysterious source producing evil in the minds and lives of men, evil that is so intimately a part of human nature. The same terrible evil buried in the mind of some Russian student unable to pay his rent.
The problem is there and not in religion or anything else. Science can't know Jonah it can only know the temperature of the water.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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I wish I had more energy to respond tonight, but I’m just too tired.
The only way to avoid being one-side (HFCS) is to embrace all interpretations. Priviledge none.
Tonight I browsed through a book written on spirituality by a Hindi around 1929. Him, someone who talked before Christ, or someone who’s talking and writing today—it’s all the same f*cking thing. Same message--if you have learned and practiced enough to hear it. Zen, Dzogchen, Buddhist, Hindi, Vendanta, Jain, Chistian, . . . whatever. Still the same.
IT"S right in front of everyone’s nose. See THIS, and you're done with everything. Everything else is just foolish.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The story of Jonah is also a message of hope. Never give up even if you are in the belly of a whale for three days.
ah, I don't think so, maybe a reread? but in short, Jonah pissed God off, God dispatches a whale to swallow Jonah (imprisoning him), once Jonah figures out he pissed God off he reconciles and God let's him go...
where's the hope? Don't piss off God!
Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son”
Abe says, “Man, you must be puttin’ me on”
God say, “No.” Abe say, “What?”
God say, “You can do what you want Abe, but
The next time you see me comin’ you better run”
Well Abe says, “Where do you want this killin’ done?”
God says, “Out on Highway 61”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Jonah
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Jonah-Chapter-1/
Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.
But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.
So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not.
And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
Then said they unto him, Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us; What is thine occupation? and whence comest thou? what is thy country? and of what people art thou?
And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear the LORD, the God of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land.
Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.
And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.
Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.
Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.
So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.
Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.
And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.
And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.
Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?
So Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.
And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.
But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.
And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.
Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Even fundamentalists often describe biblical language as mythopoetic.
Man, you've obviously encountered some VERY different crews of fundamentalists than I. Would love so see a survey done from Southern Illinois east to Morgantown, southeast to Atlanta, and south along the Mississippi to New Orleans asking fundamentalists the meaning of 'mythopoetic' and it's relationship to the bible. Good one!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The idea that eliminating religion will some how create a kind and peaceful world is a pretty anemic hope.
Again, this is a caricature.
-------
What's both anemic and a caricature is the notion, long ago dismissed by measured thinkers, that technology will somehow provide all the answers we need as human beings. This is as deluded as believing that all human woes issues from poor programming, and that if we only delete the superstitions, reboot, and download the revised, more accurate measurements, we are half way to the Golden City.
If we were objects, instead of subjects, this might work to some extent. As is, technology as Savior is so much chanting at the altar of the slide rule. Thank God that we HAVE the data to manage our lives, but CHANGING them requires something else.
JL
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The story of Jonah is also a message of hope. Never give up even if you are in the belly of a whale for three days.
ah, I don't think so, maybe a reread? but in short, Jonah pissed God off, God dispatches a whale to swallow Jonah (imprisoning him), once Jonah figures out he pissed God off he reconciles and God let's him go...
where's the hope? Don't piss off God!
Christianity acquires some of its efficacy in its relationship to the old Hebraic text. The story of Jonah is used in Christian art from the catacombs to Giotto and beyond, Michelangelo uses it on the Sistine Ceiling, as an Old Testament prefiguration of the death and resurrection of Christ.
Jonah is the story of death and resurrection as allegory. In that sense it's similar to the story of Orpheus or Persephone, or any number of mythological figures who have witnessed the underworld, seen death and have come back to tell about it. In this sense it is nothing if not a story of hope: the hope that death is more than simply an end, the hope for redemption.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Man, you've obviously encountered some VERY different crews of fundamentalists than I. Would love so see a survey done from Southern Illinois east to Morgantown, southeast to Atlanta, and south along the Mississippi to New Orleans asking fundamentalists the meaning of 'mythopoetic' and it's relationship to the bible. Good one!
When you read Aesop's Fables I'm guessing you don't say, "That's Bull sh#t animals can't talk."
Many biblical stories are used by Christians as allegories and that in itself is a mythopoetic approach.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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So go tell it to Kim Davis in Kentucky this morning. And tell it to her many supporters who like millions of traditionalists take those stories for real.
Go set THEM straight.
You know the adage about choosing your battles. Look who you're choosing to battle here.
While Kim Davis gets the free pass?
While Blu, Cragman and other fundamentalists here at ST get the free pass? First go set them straight and then your arguments with the "science types" might get more traction.
Of course they would. Because then "religion" wouldn't be a problem in the first place - if everyone understood them as (mere) allegory, myth, literature.
Go set them straight. There's the problem. Talk about misdirected efforts. Go set them straight. All of them. Till you do you just continue to run cover for them, esp the hardcore ones - and there aren't hundreds of them, there are millions of them - and for their crazy bronze age misconceptions. Covering for fundamentalists in the 21st - not a very noble effort, imo.
Start here at ST. There are many. Heck, there is even a dentist, two actually I think - who take the supernatural of the Bible for real, as reality (and then, btw, in their own way, cover for the more extreme as well).
Start here. At ST.
But I predict...
crickets.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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but in short, Jonah pissed God off, God dispatches a whale to swallow Jonah (imprisoning him), once Jonah figures out he pissed God off he reconciles and God let's him go...
I guess that would be your understanding of this as a mythopoetic moral? I see more of the scientific method. Combing experiences I could easily replace "Jonah" and "whale" with "Mike" and "mountain" and curtail some of the same truths as Jonah..
So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not.
And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil is upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
Then said they unto him, Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us; What is thine occupation? and whence comest thou? what is thy country? and of what people art thou?
And he said unto them, I am an Hebrew; and I fear the LORD, the God of heaven, which hath made the sea and the dry land.
Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do unto thee, that the sea may be calm unto us? for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous.
And he said unto them, Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you.
Nevertheless the men rowed hard to bring it to the land; but they could not: for the sea wrought, and was tempestuous against them.
Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.
So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
I see a scientific method here as to how one can come to SEE God..
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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None of the above. To me it seems ten minutes to sum up a subject that is as complex as the title suggests is great for someone that wants a quick and tidy box for this. This Dawkins guy's publishers must love this stuff. Kinda fluffy.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Nice video fructose. That's certainly the way anthropology approaches religion. I see several problems with it however. First of all it assumes that most people are "reasonable" and all they need are reasonable alternatives and a few trips to an art museum. Fine for the educated upper classes but I don't see its widespread appeal.
Secondly, the question is with what are going to replace the social support institutions of religion? In Europe and other industrialized countries this has been done to a certain extent by the government but it's hard to see that happening here with the anti government individualized society we have. How well Bernie Sanders does in the elections should give us a hint of that.
Another problem is that even with the best of education and health care, people still need the personal touch. Maybe educators and health care workers can supply it and societies with intact families, which ours doesn't have. Otherwise, more counselors, and therapists and New Age healers?
And finally, it seems to me that the next step for atheists or non theists or naturalists (that term sounds more positive to me), is to stop attacking religion and get on with setting up the next generation of institutions to demonstrate that the non religious can fulfill the functions of religion. How about a non theists' nature defense fund, orphanage, hospital etc. ?
And how about not attacking people who are on an inner search whether they are simply cruising their brain waves as naturalists believe or discovering another understanding of consciousness?
There's plenty of work to do beyond attacking the old order. I think the 1960's demonstrated that it's easy to tear down the old social order, but much harder to come up with constructive alternatives.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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You can tell a lot about a man and his perspective by his adjectives and verbs.
"Attacking"
"Insulting"
"Hating"
Compare...
Criticizing.
Challenging.
Prodding.
If you're waiting for Dawkins to Harris to cajole or mother hen the crazies, sympathizers, retros, deniers or holdbacks, you're wasting your time. It's simply not their role on the team or in their playbook. Mine neither. Sorry.
As far as one of your last lines goes, a couple in every thousand of us are actually in that very line of (developmental) work. Where have you been. Don't you read my posts? :)
And you seem to keep returning again and again to this darling of yours - that such a substitute system needs to appeal to every body... that it needs to appeal to every Tom Dick and Mary and their second cousins and pet dogs and cats to be effective or to be a success. It does not. REPEAT: It does not.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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So what is your goal fructose? To be part of a superior elite complaining about the peasants or to change the broader society? If it's the latter, how about some specific plans for those things you're working on, that you're always alluding to.
I'm not an institutional person myself, but I recognize the power and importance of institutions.
If a person has a drug problem and needs some sober friends, who do they turn to?
If a single mom can't pay the rent, who does she turn to?
If a lonely old man in a nursing home wants a visitor, what atheist performs that role?
Those are the kinds of reasons that people turn to religion, not because they think that religious cosmology is superior to science.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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You people are silly. It's no longer a search once the Holy Spirit grabs hold of you.
Climb down to the bottom of your boat tonight and hide from the world as Jonah did,
and pray for our Heavenly Father to send the HS and receive you. There doesn't need to be a Volatile storm impeding or a health crisis like it takes for many. Just an honest heart :)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Here's one more, Jan, to round out the subject for discussion...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL--1Z_g4DE
If you listen closely these videos (eg, at the end of the last one) hint to future developments and to what's next.
One might ask what's harder... putting a colony on Mars (becoming a multi-planet species); building an artificial heart that's viable practically, commercially etc.; or moving past religion of old with new understandings and new support systems?
I see all three as possible. Not only possible but likely? The future's wide open.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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HFCS: The future's wide open.
Only if your mind is wide open. If it’s not, then the future would seem to be very narrow.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Thanks fructose. That's video is exactly how I'm thinking about the current state of secularism. Now the big question - does he have a followup explaining the next step(s)? That's where everyone seems to be hung up. Or perhaps it's a task for a younger generation.
It strikes me that his viewpoint on secularism is also from the vantage point of Europe. It's much easier to be mellow about the whole thing when you don't have a lot of fundamentalists surrounding you.
Europe also got to that point in large part, out of disgust with the religious wars between Catholics and Protestants.. The first scientific society founded in England said in its preamble "science seems to be the one subject which gentlemen can discuss without coming to fisticuffs". Perhaps we are getting (or at least the younger generations) to that point.
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