The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Sep 2, 2015 - 10:30am PT
Hmmmm.

I thought there was more to the story of Jonah. My source may be suspect, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonah:_A_VeggieTales_Movie
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 2, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
The "supernaturalist type" here really proves the rule that insofar as you don't have science - phys, chem and bio in particular - you've got nothing. At least in regards to a foundation.

And you can say the same thing about the humanities as they are as much the shapers of our consciousness as the knowledge yielded by the sciences.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
Well so we're clear, the humanities are one thing, fundamentalist (traditional) religion as support for superstitions and militant theo another. I guess what millenials will be figuring out, insofar as they haven't already, is not to confuse them because of what ol timers wrote in their obfuscating ways.

I'm all for it: bible reading as literature. As literature. Dawkins does a great job with this in The God Delusion, Ch 9 or 10.

Bible As Literature. Any sympathizer here want to have a talk with Blu about that then. Until, you're just something of a participant phony doing your part to maintain a "tradition" of palming bouffant off on the unknowing for its expediency, perhaps under the guise / justification of "consolation."





EDIT

Or a talk with Werner. Pretty clear it's not just "literature" with him either. Show some backbone and let's see it.
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
YOU ARE INSANE ^^^^^
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 2, 2015 - 01:51pm PT
Are we to understand that the majority of people are literalists, and understand no other manner of truth?

Yes. And by 'modern' I can only assume you mean educated.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Sep 2, 2015 - 02:43pm PT
Define “legitimate,” “experiential,” “dreaming,” “escapades,” and “adventure.” (MikeL)

Of course I know what I consider (Largo's) experiential adventures, but I get the feeling that to him this expression has some more specialized meaning - which I keep asking him about. For me, climbing was a superb example, but I don't know if it is for JL. For him it seems to be more narrowly defined in some vague way to Zen sitting. But he won't say.

Come out from behind the curtain, oh Wizard.

;>)
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 2, 2015 - 03:56pm PT
Ram Das wrote a book called " the only Dance there is" ;I always thought the title referred to each moment is all there is from an experiential point of view. As in the experiential adventures.

But I tend to find myself wishing the moment to be something other than what it is? Tending to want out of the dance when it gets too difficult. But I think Ram is saying there is no getting out; there is no other dance.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 2, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
Are we to understand that the majority of people are literalists, and understand no other manner of truth?

Even fundamentalists often describe biblical language as mythopoetic.

it seems a mistake to describe religion as a source of evil manifested in fundamentalism. The truth is human beings are inclined to do bad things sometimes and they do those bad things in the name of a variety of causes. The problem isn't so much ideology and faith, it's the nature of humanity.

The idea that eliminating religion will some how create a kind and peaceful world is a pretty anemic hope.

People will just find some other reason to kill each other. Muslim terrorists are in it for the politics as much as the religion and, in fact, religion is absolutely inseparable from politics in that part of the world and has been historically.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 2, 2015 - 04:36pm PT
Yep. It's usually just window dressing.
Opiate of the masses and all that.
And so we're back to Nietzsche again.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Sep 2, 2015 - 05:20pm PT
Such cynics and so one sided! I could make just as good a case about any number of human institutions being the root of all evil as I can about religion. The interesting thing is nobody seems to get nearly as vexed about racism, sexism, or capitalism and its evils as they do religion on this thread.

I'm pretty sure if I started ranting about male privilege and oppression like some do about religion, the religion haters would be the ones to jump down my throat hardest about my lack of balance and empathy, my exaggeration, my extrapolation from a few bad examples etc. etc.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 05:29pm PT
cynics... one sided... religion haters... lol

A bunch of debbie downers here, more like it.

It's as if I'm an engineer-mechanic aware - fully aware - that the vehicle I'm charged with has multiple problems but somebody's over my shoulder saying the problem's not there, it's over here while somebody else is over my other shoulder saying it's not there or there or there but here.

Here's an idea / strategy: One problem area at a time and here the problem (the one I'm working on, I don't know about you all) is an antiquated theology.

I said it the other day, it's quite well known. How do you eat an elephant? ANS One bite at a time.

Sure the current age has its problems, cultural evolution and technology their risks... a 6th extinction underway, climate change, political unrest (eg, Putin), fossil fuels running out, impending nuclear risks a result, nuclear proliferation, killer asteroids swooshing by, last but not least over-population and dwindling resources beyond fossil fuels; and teen males everywhere all over the place their egos feeling restless and frustrated.

But it is as if you all need to be reminded a mere 150 years ago our main transportation was horseback and we thought Evil Eye could cause disease.

The fact is... Abrahamic religion and its conceptual foundation... God of Moses and Abraham theology... is going away. Under the pressures of science and the info age. That's the good news. One less factor problem in 21st century cultural evolution / civilization. (One more bite from the elephant.) The bad news (here) is that you guys... most of you anyways... are either not aware of this dvt at all or choose to deny it.

Or choose to lament it.

Deniers! Lamentators! Debbie Downers!

.....

So Paul, you think our resident Blu has even heard the word "mythopoetic" before? lol

On the subject of Abrahamic religion, Jan's posts are so sloppy and full of holes (eg. percentage of fundamentalists, present and past, lol, etc. etc etc. ) you're overwhelmed, don't know where to start and so you don't. Me thinks she needs to stick to Sherpa Nepalese anthro and climbing history.

A million plus "bad apples" in the ME would like to cut your head off for a dozen things you've said here.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 2, 2015 - 06:21pm PT
The interesting thing is nobody seems to get nearly as vexed about racism, sexism, or capitalism and its evils as they do religion on this thread.

Oddly enough, purveyors of all of those things have co-opted religion - right up to the present - to legitimize or expand their own power, with great success. So despite all the solace, community-building, and other feel good aspects of basing one's world view on imaginary stories and unfounded promises, there's another whole problem with it right there.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
"Yep. It's usually just window dressing."

Window dressing? As if it's a good thing?

It's not a good thing, it's a bad thing...

Like sugar in your gas tank or sand in your oil pan.



Certain to run better... from the operator's perspective... once it is removed.

Keep the (evidence-based) faith. :)

.....

Yeah, it's been explained before.

This is a r vs s thread. It's not a capitalism thread or a racism or sexism thread. Pick your meat or poison. I'm here because I am a "science type" and like Dawkins and Harris and a million others I'm sick and tired of religion / theism / theology interfering with its developments or enlightenment one way or another. Am I biased? Sure. In a positive way. I LOVE science. I am a LOVER of science. So I advocate for it.

Sick and tired. I am. But the good news is this MOTHER of SUPERSTITIONS is most definitely not as bad as it once was. Remember the tv faith healers of the 80s? Remember Jerry Falwell and his predictions of God's Wrath. Notice we don't have any of that anymore to the extent we used to. And that was just ONE generation ago. So... progress!!

H. sapiens... wising up!!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
The idea that eliminating religion will some how create a kind and peaceful world is a pretty anemic hope.

Again, this is a caricature.

(Such caricatures, quite common on Fox NEWS.)

Nobody worth their salt in social problem solving says that.

How about instead... a kinder and more peaceful world. Due to greater wisdom concerning the human condition, its history and functioning.

I'd settle for that.
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
HFCS -- "Remember Jerry Falwell"

You are the other side of the coin.

You're just as whacked out as he was, just the opposite side.

You and those whacked out evangelists all deserve each other.

You create so much nutcase Karma daily with your deluded insanity.

You consistently and daily reveal you have zero clue WTF you're talking about .....

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 2, 2015 - 07:06pm PT
Due to greater wisdom concerning the human condition, its history and functioning.

I'd settle for that.


And the greater wisdom is what? Describe the wisdom of science that lends itself to a kinder humanity. Does it have anything to do with big bombs or nerve gas, commodities that will, no doubt, assure peaceful coexistence?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
The greater wisdom is everywhere. Look around.
You're an older adult I shouldn't have to explain it to you.

If you need perspective, or you need to reestablish it, I'd suggest (a) some history reading, (b) less tv (which focuses on the negative) and more hard data (again: Better Angels, by Pinker).

A lot has to do with expectations. If you're looking for Utopia, it doesn't exist. Life is managed, not cured.

What are your circumstances, Paul? Are you happy?
Outlook depends very much on one's personal circumstances in addition to his meaning system (religion or other).

History reading is not a morale booster. But it can show just how far we've come... and how we're currently trending... since medieval times, for example.

I try to remember this statement from Sam Harris...

“We have barely emerged from centuries of barbarism. It's not a surprise that there are shocking inequities in this world. It is hard work to climb down out of the trees and walk upright,and build a viable global civilization when you start with technology that is made of rocks and sticks and fur. This is a project, and progress is dificult.”
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
If you're looking for Utopia, it doesn't exist.

Modern atheist scientists always deny God and then immediately turn around and play God.

Just clueless imitators ....
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Sep 2, 2015 - 07:19pm PT
The greater wisdom is everywhere. Look around.
You're an older adult I shouldn't have to explain it to you.

If you need perspective, or you need to reestablish it, I'd suggest (a) some history reading, (b) less tv (which focuses on the negative) and more hard data (again: Better Angels, by Pinker).

A lot has to do with expectations. If you're looking for Utopia, it doesn't exist. Life is managed, not cured.

What are your circumstances, Paul? Are you happy?
Outlook depends very much on one's personal circumstances in addition to his meaning system (religion or other).

History reading is not a morale booster. But it can show just how far we've come... and how we're currently trending... since medieval times, for example.

Nice, infinite wisdom in that response.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 2, 2015 - 07:25pm PT
It was a cairn, Paul. A pointer.

I'm not about to lay out life wisdom as I see it, way too long a job.

Here you go... These two are great go-to sources in my view. You'll probably find some fault with them?

School of Life...

http://www.youtube.com/user/schooloflifechannel/videos?flow=grid&view=0&sort=p

Brain Pickings...

http://www.brainpickings.org/

To each their own. :)
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