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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Although, as HFCS suggested, I find the proceedings here tinged with ennui, I congratulate the participants for being directly on target for this thread! No thread drift.
Well done.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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"science seems to be the one subject which gentlemen can discuss without coming to fisticuffs".
During the 18th century, the gusto that had characterised the early years of the society faded; with a small number of scientific "greats" compared to other periods, little of note was done. In the second half, it became customary for His Majesty's Government to refer highly important scientific questions to the council of the society for advice, something that, despite the non-partisan nature of the society, spilled into politics in 1777 over lightning conductors. The pointed lightning conductor had been invented by Benjamin Franklin in 1749, while Benjamin Wilson invented blunted ones. During the argument that occurred when deciding which to use, opponents of Franklin's invention accused supporters of being American allies rather than being British, and the debate eventually led to the resignation of the society's president, Sir John Pringle.
The 18th century featured remedies to many of the society's early problems. The number of fellows had increased from 110 to approximately 300 by 1739, the reputation of the society had increased under the presidency of Sir Isaac Newton from 1703 until his death in 1727,[15] and editions of the Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society were appearing regularly.[16] During his time as president, Newton arguably abused his authority; in a dispute between himself and Gottfried Leibniz over the invention of infinitesimal calculus, he used his position to appoint an "impartial" committee to decide it, eventually publishing a report written by himself in the committee's name.[15] Because of the laxness of fellows in paying their subscriptions, the society ran into financial difficulty during this time; by 1740, the society had a deficit of £240. This continued into 1741, at which point the treasurer began dealing harshly with fellows who had not paid.
Wiki
They may not have resorted to fist fights but they certainly had their share of wars within the mere population of 100 ;(
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Which tells us something important about human nature.
I've always said that if humans work at it hard enough, they can screw up any good religion (turning nature worshipping Shinto into a WWII suicidal cult is my favorite example).
It also seems that if humans work at it hard enough, they can also screw up any good science.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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^^^ got that right!
Starting at the top;
1. A -bomb
2. Napalm
3. Electric chair
4. The Ford Pinto. Hehe
Etc
Etc
Etc
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the zipper fly
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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We do have blue here as a staunch christian. Do you think the bible is the word of god to be take literally? If not then can some subset of it be taken as such? Kind of starts getting pretty damn murky if it's not all the literal word of god.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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I've always said that if humans work at it hard enough, they can screw up any good religion (turning nature worshipping Shinto into a WWII suicidal cult is my favorite example).
Mine favorites are the Crusades, especially the 1212 children's Crusade that promised free passage and absolution for kids to travel to the holy land to convert muslims (Those who survived the ordeal to Pisa and Marseille where passage was to begin were sold into Slavery in Tunesia by German Counts. Alternative accounts have most survivors dying on the return home across the Alps)
and the fourth Crusade, which resulted in the sacking of Christian Constantinople instead of Saracen Jerusalem which was allowing pilgrimages.( more booty in Constantinople)
This was under the sanction of pope Urban's "Peace and Truce of God" and hastened the downfall of the Byzantine empire and split the church forever.
Close behind is a tie between Pope Innocent III's genocidal Albigencian crusade against Cathar reformers who wanted to return the church to the heretical concepts of sanctity, poverty, and preaching, and the wholesale slaughter of native Americans by the Spanish in order to save their souls for Christ.
( read Bartolomé de las Casas' " a Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies" )
And who could forget the inquisition?
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peladob
Mountain climber
Mason City, Iowa
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Hemingway also takes human tragedy down to the "its not gonna get better, is it" stage....very Old Testament.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Lorenzo, I used Shinto as an example of screwing up a religion because it made it some 1,900 years before that happened whereas Christianity was compromised already in 312 when Constantine started fighting battles under the Greek symbols for Christ. All the rest merely followed that tradition.
The common element in the moral downfall of both Christianity and Shinto was their reliance on political power instead of their original inspirations.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Do you think the bible is the word of god to be take literally?
i think if anyone were to read it cover to cover once they'de have enough understanding to become a believer enough to be saved. In that regard i don't think anything in it is "literally" wrong or untruthful. With that said, the term "literal" has multiple meanings these days, even among Christians. One thing forsure, it's a Spiritual manual. To truely understand any of it one must take every line in context with the entire book. Or you may miss out on the spiritual message. I've heard it said, the Old Testament was a shadow of things to come. Those "things" were the New Test. and Jesus the Christ. While the OT describes how God/Jesus dealt very literally with man"s transgressions through a very literal avenue, "The Law". The NT and the blood sacrifice of Jesus the son of God paid the debt for ALL of mankind. The belief in Him pardons us all and leaves you and i GUILTLESS, yesterday, today, and forever. The church that uses guilt as a motivator is not Christian. (Sorry to preach).
"Literal" wording? I think even an 8th grader can recognize when not to take the literal definition of a word depending on the context it's presented. Take the word "water", sometimes it insinuates the drinking kind. Sometimes it means the Spirit. For example;
Jesus is talking to the Samarian woman and asks her for a drink from the well. (John 4) She questions Him and Jesus replied with, "Whoever drinks of this well will thirst again. But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will be On my way! In him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life".
You be the judge.
If your asking if i believe in the miracles of Jesus, like when He reattached the guards ear after Peter cut it off. Or if He walked on water, the answer is YEA! He is the son of God for cryin out loud..
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The common element in the moral downfall of both Christianity and Shinto was their reliance on political power instead of their original inspirations.
And so true of Islam now. What the Persians and the Mesopotamians don't seem to realize is they now practice/facilitate the political hegemony of the Arabs. It's hard to believe the great Persian nation, nation of the "great king" as the Greeks called him, has succumbed to the will of nomadic camel drivers to the south. Be they Sunni or Shiite their will is bound to the political whims of Mecca and they don't even realize it. Better they go back to Zoroaster and emerge from the middle ages and the blinding politics of stupidity.
Hemingway also takes human tragedy down to the "its not gonna get better, is it" stage....very Old Testament.
I have to tell you, I just love Woody Allen's depiction of Hemingway in "Midnight in Paris." What a great, silly caricature... too funny. But what an incredible stylist. I wonder if there would have been a Salter without a Hemingway?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Sep 6, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
Lorenzo, I used Shinto as an example of screwing up a religion because it made it some 1,900 years before that happened whereas Christianity was compromised already in 312 when Constantine started fighting battles under the Greek symbols for Christ. All the rest merely followed that tradition.
The common element in the moral downfall of both Christianity and Shinto was their reliance on political power instead of their original inspirations.
Yes, I understand that. But it's important to note that not many religions are without their power and military components, and that both Christianity and Judaism ( and Islam) aren't isolated havens for religious navel contemplations. It's fashionable to talk about Muslims now, but it's been repeated a whole bunch of times with many religions - Probably more than any other in the entire history of the church from Jesus on.
The Christian religion has its roots in war and power well before before 312. The early church fathers were embroiled in many rebellions and wars that had their roots in inflexible demagoguery. Jesus' crucifiction was for treason based on his disturbance in a temple he called a den of thieves. It was the power center of the Jewish world. It was an act of rebellion.
Let's not forget that a guy named Saul of Tarsus was a Jew hell bent on Persecuting Heretical Jews who believed in a risen messiah until he had his vision on the road to Damascus while pursuing them. About 70% of the New Testament is the work of he and his disciples.
James the Just (called the brother of Jesus) was stoned to death over a power struggle for control of the outer temple, according to Josephus. He was considered a Jew even by the priests until then.
And before that several factions of Jews had battled each other for centuries over power. It's why you often see two parallel stories, one Levite, one Priestly, and each each different in the Old Testament, and was still evident in the power struggles between Sadduces, Pharisees, Nazoreans, Siccarii, Essenes, and others at the time of the second Jewish revolt. The downfall of Jerusalem was largely self inflicted, with a civil war going on as the Romans sat outside the city while Jews and their leaders and Priests massacred each other. The Romans took almost no casualties. It was the same climate that existed during the lifetime of Jesus and before. Both branches of the religion were pretty apocalyptic by then.
Both modern Judaism ( After the Temple) and Christianity grew out of that rebellion. It was established as part of the religion well before Constantine.
In fact, the fall of Jerusalem was the Third or Fourth religion changing war or rebellion.
Moses against Pharoh, Joshua conquering Cannan, and the Exodus and return all changed the basis thrust of the religion. Not even counting Maccabees and such.
And what happened to the tribe of Dan if not a result of religious genocide?
Not all power is religious in nature, of course. Ghengis Khan had an animist father and a Nestorian Chistian mother. The Khanates were very religiously tolerant. Several converted to Islam and one, at least, to Christianity as one of his religions.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Lorenzo that was really nicely written. I question this part tho.
Jesus' crucifiction was for treason based on his disturbance in a temple he called a den of thieves. It was the power center of the Jewish world. It was an act of rebellion.
Jesus' table turning incident in His Fathers house was His only rebellious act(as you wanna call it). I think what the money changers, and the tax collectors were the ones being rebellious. But that's another matter. But what Jesus did there was by no means the reason He was crucified, IMO. I'd like to hear how you came up with that idea? Neither Mathew or Luke give any mention as to why. John says the priests charged Him as an evildoer. Mark prolly has the closest reason when he says Pilate knew the chief priests wanted Jesus crucified because they were Envious.
Your right about Saul/Paul. He was a big time rebel until he met Jesus!
Where did you find that part about James? Who was Josephus?
The Christian religion has its roots in war and power well before before 312.
I guess this would be right if you call the few Christians that existed during that time went walking around talking and telling people what they had seen and heard about Jesus and cities wanted to lynch them for it.
And before that several factions of Jews had battled each other for centuries over power. It's why you often see two parallel stories, one Levite, one Priestly, and each each different in the Old Testament,
Could you point to one or two examples of these several, please?
It was the same climate that existed during the lifetime of Jesus and before. Both branches of the religion were pretty apocalyptic by then.
Why would you use the description "apocalyptic"? I mean Revelation wasn't even written yet.
Both modern Judaism ( After the Temple) and Christianity grew out of that rebellion. It was established as part of the religion well before Constantine.
Do you realize that Judaism and Christianity are at exact opposite ends of the poles? What are you inferring when you say Christianity grew out of that rebellion? Rebellion against who?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I personally don't really see how anyone can consider the bible as anything but another mythology. What distinguishes christian mythology from Greek, Roman, Celtic, Persian or Indian mythology? Nothing whatsoever from where I sit.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Well, there was a bunch of previous speech or acts before the temple incident.
There was facing down the Pharisees in the woman at the well incident, " let he who is without sin..." It was considered opposition to Jewish law and almost got him thrown off a cliff.
There was the famous "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's ( Caesar was a God, remember?) it was used as a point against him at trial in Luke 23
There was the entry into Jerusalem on a donkey in an act declaring fulfillment of the prophecy of the coming Messiah to free the Jews.
"See your king ( Messiah) riding on a Donkey"( Zecheriah 9:9) the Jews called their kings Messiahs ( the bible also calls Cyrus the Great Messiah for allowing the return)
To the Jews, if not to Romans, that was declaring Kingship. Every Jew would have grasped the meaning. It was at the root of the Questioning at his trial
Remember, there was no King ( Messiah) in Judea then. Pilate was the Prefect appointed by Rome after Archeleus, the last Hasmonian King ( ethnarch, really) there died. The Herod (Antipas) mentioned in the passion was Tetrarch of Galilee visiting during Passover and had no jurisdiction, which is why he sent Jesus back to Pilate. ( Pilate sent Jesus to Herod because he was from Galilee)
The Hasmonians weren't even considered Jews by the population of Jerusalem, being from Idumea. They were seen as occupiers as much as the Romans. Any threat against their legitimacy was serious.
Pretty much all of his last trip to Jerusalem was rebellion against the establishment.
Even after he was crucified, his followers denied the power of the priests and Levites and declared him above them declaring Jesus high priest forever in the Order of Melchizidek ( the king/priest of (Jeru)salem who revealed Yahweh to Abraham) ( Hebrews... 20, I think) this bestowal would predate the legitimacy of Aaronite and Levite priests.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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And before that several factions of Jews had battled each other for centuries over power. It's why you often see two parallel stories, one Levite, one Priestly, and each each different in the Old Testament,
Could you point to one or two examples of these several, please?
I'll let you look.
Tell me, how many people saw God on Mount Sinai and what were the consequences of seeing him?
How many of each animal did Noah take with him on the Ark?
What were the religious responsibilities of the sons of Aaron and the sons of Levi?
Who killed Goliath?
You'll find two lists for all of these and more. At the root was political/priestly power.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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was the same climate that existed during the lifetime of Jesus and before. Both branches of the religion were pretty apocalyptic by then.
Why would you use the description "apocalyptic"? I mean Revelation wasn't even written yet.
Apocalyptic writing, Armageddon, and the coming of the Messiah is much older than Christianity. Was pretty big by at least 200-100 BCE With the Syrian Aramaic conquests of Antiochus Epiphanes ( and is why Jesus spoke Aramaic) There was also some with the removal to Babylon.
The whole Jesus thing is scripted in fulfillment of those prophecies.
A good discussion is here:
https://www.gci.org/bible/rev/apocalyptic
Or read the book of Daniel ( written in the second century BCE). That's pretty much what it's all about ( Zecheriah, too. )
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Hey Paul R, Blu is a literal fundamentalist.
Literal fundamentalism (aka fundamental literalism) is a problem in today's world struggling to adapt. (If you haven't noticed.)
Curious if you have any response to him / for him? as you do - it seems without fail - for us "science types" - any words of wisdom from your bible- as-literature and love-of-myth-(mythopoesis) philosophy.
But I suspect more silence. Why not surprise me.
If you don't simply run cover for the Abrahamic fundamentalists whether Christian or Islamic why not show it here. Golden opportunity right here to speak up and to tell it how it is to those in the dark.
.....
Oh my, perfect timing. Look what popped up on my internet this morning...
How suitable to these recent thread pages that feature PaulR.
Richard Dawkins said something similar years ago on a podcast...
"I am not so much anti-religious as I am pro-science."
If only religion didn't advance truth claims (claims to truth re how the world works, how life works (eg at the embryo, fetus stages), then science and religion wouldn't butt heads.
Then it would of course be much easier to be pro science and without the anti-religious attachment.
Where is the religious leadership that needs to come forward to acknowledge / declare that the perceived truth-claims of the past that conflict with modern science are to be understood henceforth as allegory or myth?
Where is this religious leadership? We could use it right now.
.....
IRL: internet slang: in real life
Usage: "I'm lucky enough to be friends, both FB and IRL, with this person."
(My internet slang for the day.)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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To appreciate nature poetry, why not look to one of its origins
perhaps you meant "to appreciate western nature poetry..."
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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I don't wish to get into a discussion of Christian theology but have to point out once again that blu is espousing a particular sectarian interpretation of Christianity that has always been a minority of Christians. It is also a very ahistorical view. I think blu would really appreciate reading more about the early history of Christianity and the many different interpretations of the scriptures we know plus all the scriptures that didn't make it into the New Testament. Check out the gnostics for example, read up on the centuries of disputes about the nature of the trinity, check out who Josephus was and the arguments as to his particular political position. None of this detracts from the essence of the teaching of Jesus that have been handed down to us but certainly makes it clear that there is more than one interpretation.
And congratulations to Lorenzo for his excellent Bible literacy and balanced view as presented. One of the things I have observed is that increasing numbers of Christian students of mine, including those who claim to believe the Bible literally, are actually unfamiliar with it, relying on preachers to tell them what it says rather than reading it for themselves, which is exactly one of the sins they often throw up at the Catholic church and list as one of the causes of the Reformation.
In answer to fructose's question of where are those who look at the Bible as allegory or myth, this has been going on for a long time. There is a two volume Encyclopedia of religion in America in which volume I ends with the Holiness Fire Baptized Apostolic Church. One wonders what could possibly be in Volume II but it starts out with the Mormons and ends with the many churches attempting to reconcile science and religion, such as Unity, Science of Mind, Divine Science etc.
In general, the mainstream Protestant churches are dwindling in numbers and the Protestant churches that are growing are the fundamentalists (though they are losing many young people) and the newer churches that stress personal interpretations of the traditions and a more modern outlook. Catholics and Orthodox are growing as many people turn away from literal interpretations to rituals where they can participate in a community and the sermons are short. Christian yoga, Christian meditation, and the charismatic movement are all going strong.
Some scholars argue that our society is returning to the conditions of the Roman Empire and Christianity is becoming more like the Christianity of the first century - diverse and divided.
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