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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 26, 2015 - 01:46am PT
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Fear of the unknown; fear of an uncertain future. It isn't rocket science.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 26, 2015 - 02:06am PT
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Fear of the unknown; fear of an uncertain future. It isn't rocket science.
But it is rocket science!
Why fear, what is there to fear? It's an explanation too simple in form. How does humanity come to be so fearful it seeks untenable gods? I'd say the natural inclination is to consolation rather than fear. The individual seeks peace within a confounding mystery whether through knowledge/science or religion and that desire for peace is an ever so natural and ubiquitous element of the human condition. The notion that religion is simply the fearful imaginings of the masses diminishes and dismisses the difficult plight and strange reality we find ourselves in and suggests weakness, even foolishness. The natural inclination to see existence as confusing and difficult is because it is just that.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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May 26, 2015 - 02:40am PT
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And who doesn't have doubt in their mind? Science itself is predicated on the necessity of doubt. As well, faith too is predicated on doubt Paul , you come from a place of love . I think , maybe I am wrong.
When you do not come from "a place of love" you can not
And do not get a lot of the deep faith or respect for the cath/judayo godhing the worst is that you see the greatest failings of the church and the brethren.
Like climbers,the fundamentalist in all of the faiths that I have looked at
(superficially, by many standards) leave the masses with mixed signals .
, for what would be the value of faith without the presence of doubt? Ironically, it's the believing disbeliever whose faith is most profound, most powerful.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 26, 2015 - 07:29am PT
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It's an explanation too simple in form.
You're over-thinking the issue.
One drop of faith...
My point exactly...
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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jgill: If I owned this website I would not tolerate this (inaccurate) religious bigotry. My humble opinion.
There appears to be too many self-contradictory terms in this line. How can one want to own something and be humble yet opinionated about bigotry and inaccuracy while indicating no toleration for any of it?
Which are you? Humble or opinionated?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 26, 2015 - 08:40am PT
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Sure there is. You just can't read very well.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 26, 2015 - 12:32pm PT
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If I owned this website . . . (jg)
How can one want to own something . . . (ML)
Back to reading class for you, young man . . .
;>)
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 26, 2015 - 01:02pm PT
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 26, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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"In mainstream media the Higgs boson has often been called the "God particle", from a 1993 book on the topic; the nickname is strongly disliked by many physicists, including Higgs, who regard it as inappropriate sensationalism" (Wiki)
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 26, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
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'who regard it as inappropriate sensationalism"
Which it no doubt is. But still, It's interesting that the public perception of science is that it's building a figurative tower of Babel (colliders and telescopes and such) which will inevitably lead to a viewing of God as a final/ultimate term.
That there must be some ultimate source, some unified theory of everything seems sensible from a human perspective. It's a function of our observation of the universe as an existing, ordered structure in which becoming appears an inevitable paradigm. It's an evolutionary question: why becoming? Why the passion for survival? It's interesting as well that passive evolutionary survival gives way to the passionate need to be as organisms become more and more "complex."
Over thinking? Not really, the subject is much more complex, weird, strange and difficult than you/anyone can possibly imagine.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 26, 2015 - 02:03pm PT
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Over thinking? Not really, the subject is much more complex, weird, strange and difficult than you/anyone can possibly imagine. Not really. It's no more complicated than hearing strange and frightening sounds coming from outside a dark cave entrance in the middle of the night. Or wondering what happened to Zed when he never comes back from going out to hunt.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 26, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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suprema, you're determined to bring it down to 7th grade, huh?
trying to one-up blu?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 26, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
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It's no more complicated than hearing strange and frightening sounds coming from outside a dark cave entrance in the middle of the night. Or wondering what happened to Zed when he never comes back from going out to hunt.
You're missing the point: why is a strange sound frightening? Why should anyone be concerned with Zed? The answer can't be simply "evolutionary survival mechanism" because that begs the question: why and how does that mechanism exist? If you say simply in order to survive then you haven't addressed the mechanism's impetus and source. What is that drive, need, passion to be? It evolved out of an ordered structure where it must have existed as an inevitable potential at the very moment of any first cause. The inevitability of fear as an experience must have been built into the very nature of what is a possibly eternal and certainly ordered structure. An eternity of time plus an eternity of material and an eternity of energy mediated by a restrictive order would inevitably reveal all possibilities within that order: life and all the emotions that might accompany it. The desire to be is more than a means to an end (survival) it is an end in itself and that's a sublime mystery.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 26, 2015 - 03:22pm PT
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Again, not rocket science, just an extension of primitive predator/prey response which gains complexity as the complexity of the organism increases.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 26, 2015 - 03:24pm PT
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I'm beginning to think rocket science must be pretty damn complicated!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 26, 2015 - 03:27pm PT
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I'm beginning to think rocket science must pretty damn complicated!
What is "The desire to be?"
Does one need desire to be?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 26, 2015 - 03:33pm PT
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Does one need desire to be?
The will to life is written in to the evolutionary process as in: I desire to live therefore I will run from the predator.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 26, 2015 - 03:34pm PT
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With all due respect, Paul, I don't think you have nearly the feel for it - namely our evolutionary history - also our recent history and current trends - as you think you do. Sorry.
Imo, of course, based on the net-weight of your many and various posts over a very long time now.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 26, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
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Funny, I was just going to say the same thing about you... and I'm sorry too.
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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May 26, 2015 - 03:37pm PT
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Religion, spiritualism, and philosophy have had their run. Let's see what science has to offer for say...the next twelve thousand years. That ought to be enough time to then compare and make an honest assessment as to the merits of all the different schools of thought.
In the meantime I'm pretty sure I can convince all the religious and spiritual folk to suspend their ideology while the jury is still out.
Announcement to all you religious and spiritual folk;
Please suspend all your prayers and beliefs for the next twelve thousand years. I'm sure there are enough saints and sinners in heaven and hell to keep your God busy. I'm sure that if your God is discovered to be real at the end of the twelve thousand years he will reinstate your non-existent cold dead souls and deliver them to their proper destinations. That is all.
PS
As a caveat to those in need of divine intervention or only simple consolation, at the end of 12,000 years scientists just might discover that a man named God on a faraway moon in a distant solar system is frantically working at the controls behind the curtain at the end of a long corridor in a large green hall at the center of the Emerald City in a magical place called Oz.
Hope springs eternal!
-bushman
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