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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 16, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
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^^^^ If anyone can do it, it would be the Prodigies.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 16, 2015 - 10:13pm PT
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Just think, these prodigies, when meditating, actually experience these tiny entities, much as John does! Please ask them to divulge how doth dwell the universe inside Planck spheres, as related by jammer. That one has me puzzled.
Still no cigar on that one, John. But nice effort.
What John is trying to do is shunt virtual particles into being what I referred to as a "book keeping device for qm." But no fast, says the prodigies.
"The Lamb shift is a direct measurement of the effect of virtual particles on the hydrogen atom. So yes they do exist. There are other interactions that require virtual particles to exist such as the Coulomb Force, Weak and Strong Nuclear Forces, and the Casimir effect to name a few. The key to understanding virtual particles is that there existence is limited by an extremely small time and space but they do leave evidence of their existence."
But of course John latched onto the thing (virtual particles), and missed the point.
What John is missing here, and which he can easily confirm for himself if he can ever "shut up and stop calculating," is that in the borderless field of awareness, qualia arise and then go. No need for John's "God" to be "rising them up." It matters little if what rises and falls away is a tiny entity or a pine cone. The point is that from no-thing, things arise and fall away.
In scientific language, it might be useful to consider virtual particles rising up and falling away, not as "things" to discursively latch onto, but rather as yet another metaphor to grasp the fundamental truth, which is NOT a mere scientific calculation, but a basic law of fact of consciousness. The only reason scientific language is ever bothered with at all is for fun and because the prodigies work with it
and quite naturally look for contrasts in that realm with the deeper work they do with mind.
The question about how a universe doth dwell in a Planck sphere is something that is perhaps part of David Boehm's implicate order take on QM.
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 16, 2015 - 11:10pm PT
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Jgill:
So what’s your take on existence, on what’s real and what’s not real (quantumly or grossly)? You continue to poo-poo other’s ideas (of various sorts), and so now I’’m wondering . . . what does Jgill think / believe?
I think you and everyone else will see that it is immensely easier to say what doesn’t exist than to say what does.
There is a very important reason for that.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 17, 2015 - 07:29am PT
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I think I see where I may have gone wrong. I've been trying to grasp the fundamental tooth.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 17, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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Overlooking an important demographic...
Losing their religion: the hidden crisis of faith among Britain’s young Muslims
http://www.theguardian.com/global/2015/may/17/losing-their-religion-british-ex-muslims-non-believers-hidden-crisis-faith?CMP=share_btn_tw
.....
Moose, check out the Star Trek Voyager series!
I recommend... S3: Distant Origin; S4 Mortal Coil; S4 Living Witness; S5 Course Oblivion; S5: Think Tank. S6: Blink of an Eye
Storycrafting at its finest!
Science-based, science-respecting, too. :)
You've probably already seen "Inner Light" ST:TNG. Master storycrafting there too.
.....
Mayflies. Emotions, too?
If so, let's hope they never get science.
OMG! To discover/ learn you only live three days! When the bulk
of other creatures live far longer. How unfortunate! How unfair!
How depressing!
To discover your true nature - so constrained, limited, finite - just an insignificant dit in a universe w so much potential!
Pain!!
Fuk science! Fuk education! Fuk knowing thyself!
Where's the Oxy? Where's that little blue pill? Where's the Zoloft?!!
Screams the enlightened Mayfly, the emotional Mayfly.
Maybe the emotional fruitfly, too?
.....
I'll be at Leonard Mlodinow's talk today...
http://www.skeptic.com/upcoming-lectures/
If you're close, why not come. Baxter Lecture Hall. Starts at 1:30pm.
If you can make it, find me and say hi. (I'll be wearing one of my favorite climbing t-shirts, for sure, easy to spot.)
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 17, 2015 - 11:59am PT
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MikeL: I think ... it is immensely easier to say what doesn’t exist than to say what does.
There is a very important reason for that.
MikeL
Do this ST thread exist?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 17, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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Man-oh-man, or should I say woman-oh-woman, Locker you have done "hath wrought" again. And on the perfect thread. Lol.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 17, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
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I'm not sure but my hath wrought meter is pegged right now.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 17, 2015 - 12:46pm PT
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I recall a prof I had in a lit class who asked us students what in our lives could be better understood and communicated and known by way of symbol, metaphor and so forth, as opposed to numerical notation or quantitative description. The black and white thinkers in the group could think of little to nothing because they could never shut up and stop calculating - and that's where the nuance is encountered, in the place where the numbers run dry and the symbols, sense, and song of life plays in subtle tones. To the literalist, there simply is no such realm, or thought it was "unreal." (JL)
This lengthy comment confirms my opinion that John is not so much disenchanted by science and mathematics as with "science bookkeepers" , calculating furiously at their desks, plastic pocket protectors vibrating with their energy. Scientists and mathematicians use numbers as their tools as writers use words. Behind the calculations or the scribblings lies considerable intellectual activity.
. . . by way of symbol, metaphor and so forth describes both camps. Some who practice mathematics find their investigations more philosophical than numerical.
I think you and everyone else will see that it is immensely easier to say what doesn’t exist than to say what does (MikeL)
Absolutely. If I go out on a limb and state there is no "meditative ectoplasm" as described by some here, it is indeed a solid branch and I have no fear of falling. That all things arise from no-thingness or emptiness as experienced by meditators is metaphysical speculation at best and silliness at worst. It's inconsequential, but if it invigorates your wheelhouse go for it.
His male domination - sullly. LOL
And you guys thought I was joking many pages ago when I speculated HFCS is in reality a 16 (now 17) year-old Valley Girl who is having a lark on this thread. Why do you think she never posts an image of herself? Or tells us who she is?
Don't pick on sullly. She knows more than you do.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 17, 2015 - 12:52pm PT
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"to boldly wrought where no man hath wrought before"
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 17, 2015 - 12:57pm PT
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Holy Crap! I just read the last page of posts and have no idea what anybody is talking about! So,...science is still in the lead...right?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 17, 2015 - 12:58pm PT
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^^^^
Hfcs doesn't melt down and have tantrums like she did.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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May 17, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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Maybe the title of this thread should be:
What hath religion wrought vs. what hath science wrought?
You know them by their fruits and we have fruits of many varieties here.
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Norton
Social climber
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May 17, 2015 - 01:09pm PT
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Who get's the "Hath wrought" credit???...
it was righty tighty Bookworm who started the Hath Wrought stuff, years ago
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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May 17, 2015 - 01:25pm PT
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Just heard that Dean Potter got killed BASE jumping. Don't much feel like bickering on this thread right now. RIP bro.
JL
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 17, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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WOW^^*^^
Edit: i had no idea he captured so many of his experiences on video.
DeanPotter was a man who BOLDLY went where no man has gone before.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 17, 2015 - 04:26pm PT
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A tragedy . . . he accomplished so much.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 17, 2015 - 09:32pm PT
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William Munny: “We all have it coming, kid.”
Rest in Peace. . . Were we all to do so beforehand.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 18, 2015 - 01:23pm PT
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