The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 16, 2015 - 10:38am PT
Jan and Paul (PSP) seem careful to not align themselves with this weird strain of meditational metaphysics. "From which all things arise" is a tell-tale sign of a shuttered mind if not a religious conviction. If it is true that all things reduce to no-thingness, that in itself is not a cogent argument that all things must arise from this emptiness.
-


I would point out that while various voices bray on the sidelines, no one has even attempted to address the simple string of questions I put forth per materialism/determinism. It's like a wonky religious cult that assumes they are right (that materialism is viable) and guffaws at all contrary ideas, no matter the evidence, while calling THEM religious. Here is the core of material fanaticism - we can easily see why.

Per the above. This "weird strain of meditational metaphysics" is not something I made up or can take credit for. Virtually all experiential adventures end up in the same place, the realm befor conceptualization and discursive thought starts to interpret. What's peculiar, and a stretch by any measure, is the next fragment of John's rant: "...is a tell-tale sign of a shuttered mind if not a religious conviction."

Say what?

Here John makes the fatal mistake of believing in his heart of hearts that this "arising" is some kind of idea or philosophy or interpretation sourced by a "shuttered mind." Not even...

Let's look at this from two angles: First, the experiential angle. Using the materialist doctrine that all phenomenon are physical, our thoughts then are physical phenomenon, as are feelings, sensations, and so on. When we get quiet and watch the arising of sensations (Insight meditation is all about doing this), thoughts, feelings, memories, smells, etc,. we experience them arising out of the no-thing field of awareness and then dissolving back once more. Anyone with a little training can find this out empirically. It's the "mind" version of 5.3 terrain.

My science friends (who John, silly rabbit, calls "prodigies," and who as science geeks, they readily agree with this prodigy designation, minus the snide overtones) who are big into Insight meditation like to point to so-called virtual particles, which are constantly popping in and out of existence. One friend who works at JPL and who is NOT a meditator thinks all this virtual particle guff is just a mathematical bookkeeping device for quantum mechanics. But any number of other studies show how in so-called vacuum space, virtual particles pop into and out of existence all the time, but they do so in pairs.

That is, right now, all around Warner and me and John and Fruity, electrons and their anti-particles, positrons are being "created" and, about a billion-trillionth of a second annihilated again. The same is true (with even shorter lifetimes) for virtually every other possible set of particle/anti-particle pairs. That's what the equations say, something John might appreciate.

But how is this arising "a religious conviction," as John contends, and how is this arising the work of "God?" who rises the virtual particles "up?!"

Whoa, big boy. Have you suddenly gots yoself some religion?

What you have here is someone still fused to the idea that the void or no-thing cannot possibly give rise to anything, even virtual particles, rather, in the materialsts tradition, the virtual particles must be sourced by an agency, in this case, John Gill's curious "God." So now, of all things, we have John doing the preaching. I'd be curious to hear more about this God of John's. Where did he/she/it come from. Flowing beard?

Who would have thunk it?

As as mentioned, note that while the jokes roll in, the fundamental questions about materialism/determinism go unanswered, or are approached with the intentions of explaining them away. An honest tackling of the basic issues is apparently not in the cards for this thread.

JL
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 16, 2015 - 10:51am PT
What occurred to from the movie is that computers don't ask WHY, or even what.

Not even Watson! Other than "what is" and that's still an answer to him, I mean it.

The Eva robot asked, "why do I have someone that can turn me off, and humans don't?"

And that was not even an intelligent question. We all know we can turn ourselves OFF anytime we want.

Just another stupid movie aimed at immature lusting boys seeking pleasure within their own imagination. You know "Trekkies". Hollywood has been a steaming locomotive ripping apart the values of the family, going on 30+ years now. Rotting the minds of individuals with soap operas, and shows like Married with children, and Star Trek, etc etc. only driving us backward in our evolutional societal consciousness.
Norton

Social climber
May 16, 2015 - 11:21am PT

so

how exactly did Star Trek drive American society "backwards", Blue?

maybe something about all that high space age technology?

maybe it was those unconventional costumes they wore?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 16, 2015 - 11:47am PT
Moose, you're not a Star Trek fan?!!!

.....

You take the good with the bad. Hollywood and literature have done more to expand h consciousness... and conscience... than any Abrahamic religion or its content.

They're right up there with science. Thank atheist-God for them!!


But take heart re Blu and other fundamentalist C and I posts: These disagreements point to both the shortcoming (the problem) and the potential for growth (after solving the problem).



Live long and prosper.



Captain Kirk: In every revolution there's one man with a vision.
Mirror Spock: Captain Kirk, I shall consider it.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 16, 2015 - 11:56am PT
Hollywood has been a steaming locomotive ripping apart the values of the family, going on 30+ years now. Rotting the minds of individuals with soap operas, and shows like Married with children, and Star Trek, etc etc. only driving us backward in our evolutional societal consciousness.

I would replace Star Trek with The Bill Cosby Show and then add all of the evening news anchor shows.

Of course the bad shows are always counter-balanced by the good,such as Mr.Roger's Neighborhood and most of the travel and cookin' shows.

My little black box expired and I have not watched the boob tube for quite some time and I don't purview movies, so I am at a disadvantage with you ever-watchful pop culture mavens.

Hollywood and literature have done more to expand h consciousness... and conscience... than any Abrahamic religion.

Since western societies have rested upon a confluence of those factors it might be next to impossible to tease out, separate, and then polemically oppose one against the other.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
May 16, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
Since western societies have rested upon a confluence of those factors it might be next to impossible to tease out, separate, and then polemically oppose one against the other.

So true. In what sense is the bible not literature? It is art after all, in the service of religion perhaps, but art nonetheless. I wouldn't disparage Leonardo's The Last Supper because it describes a biblical event in what started as a religion of Abraham.
WBraun

climber
May 16, 2015 - 01:03pm PT
And that was not even an intelligent question. We all know we can turn ourselves OFF anytime we want.

No you can't.

It's never ever been done by any living entity ever .....
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 16, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
because it describes a biblical event in what started as a religion of Abraham.

So much of contemporary and historical western culture has been structurally infused and influenced with the moral thought and mythological forms inherent in Judeo-Christian religions that to divorce this inherency from that culture at this stage in the game would be like attempting to train a remora fish not to follow the shark. And this is not to say such a project cannot be done. But it would probably have to be draconian.

The critics of religious practice and influence never fully appreciate the magnitude of the revolutionary effort it would take to disengage the two. Nor do they acknowledge the wisdom in what Carl Jung said about man being essentially a religious creature.

I don't make these points as an apologetic for any religion per se-- but only to point out some very stubborn and apparent truths.



EDIT: This is not to say that the Progressive Socialist Left, to name just one major force, has not tried hard to accomplish the liquidation of religion from people's lives.
In ye old Soviet Union, a nominally atheistic endeavor,religious leaders were imprisoned and executed and churches were shuttered-- all to no avail, as religion was simply driven underground and thereby thrived.

Another major force along these same lines in this country were the actions and influence of John Dewey, a progressive socialist, and the foremost architect and exponent of the government school system beginning around the end of the 19th-20th century. Dewey's efforts were highly incremental, and his under-the -radar incrementalism continues to influenced the modus operandi foundation of American Liberalism to this day.
( A recently written book along these line by Alex Newman/Sam Blumenfeld has proven very illumuninating: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/crimes-of-the-educators-alex-newman/1121083173?ean=9781938067129

From a review of this book:

The whole-word method of teaching children to read – introduced by John Dewey and colleagues in the early twentieth century and which permeates Common Core – is a significant cause of dyslexia among students. Public education's war against religion, the "great American math disaster," promotion of death education, and the government's plan to lower standards for all so "no one is left behind" is destroying the logic, reasoning, and overall educational prowess of America's next generation.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 16, 2015 - 03:17pm PT
Haha, a couple sticks in the mud, I say.

Look, if you guys want to defend the lit of the bible or koran when clearly it has been, and continues to be, (mis)taken as gospel truth or actionable ideology (eg, by ISIS, by Frank Graham and Pat Robertson, by Blu) for (a) how the world works (b) morality, absolute or serviceable; (c) an oracle or crystal ball of end-times, (d) comfort, consolation... (e) whatever else (means to the good life)... then that's your right and your business.

But at some level you must realize... adaptive, evolutionary movements are underfoot (feel that? the gnd moving?)... and umpteen million people apart from yourselves have been moving on... are moving on, and will be moving on. Because they've seen the light - that's one reason - and because they're NOT sticks in the mud.

.....

Of course the bible stories are literature.

Literature is one thing. Literature (mis)taken for truth (about how the world works) and pushed as ideology by religions and religious whackos (e.g., on children, eg, to please Yahweh) is another altogether. Umpteen millions are "wising up" to this fact, this distinction, every day.

Just remember no stick in the mud has ever contributed to an innovative solution to an age old problem or contributed to an advance of civilization.

Defend. Sympathize. Deny. Naysay. I think it is in your blood and there's no getting it out?

But we should talk in 100 years. We'll look together - to see just how strongly the Abrahamic mythology continued (continues) to influence world cultures (or else the emerging "international community") as their core organizing/operating/unifying narrative.

My bet on its influence or input in the 22nd century: Rounded off: ZERO.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 16, 2015 - 03:29pm PT
"his male domination..." -Sul

LOL!

"It's all about and science." -Sul

Hey you may have missed a word there?

It's all about x (tbd) and science.

Let's see...

It's all about male penis and science?
It's all about androgen, testosterone and science?
It's all about Men are from Mars, Women from Venus and science?

It's all about Iago evil, Othello jealousy and science?
It's all about adults with Asperger's and science?

I don't know. Help a guy out? :)

"It is clear Fructose has spent zero time in a literature class." -Sul

Yep, as CLEAR as hcfs is tvash. (lol)

Tvashfruit out.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 16, 2015 - 03:51pm PT
But at some level you must realize... adaptive, evolutionary movements are underfoot (feel that? the gnd moving?)... and umpteen million people apart from yourselves have been moving on... are moving on, and will be moving on. Because they've seen the light - that's one reason - and because they're NOT sticks in the mud.

You might have dispensed with all the above palaver by merely intoning: " Resistance is fu-tile"

Actually it sounds a bit like a line discarded by Sinclair Lewis in his earlier draft of Elmer Gantry
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 16, 2015 - 04:29pm PT
Hollywood has been a steaming locomotive ripping apart the values of the family, going on 30+ years now. Rotting the minds of individuals with soap operas, and shows like Married with children, and Star Trek, etc etc. only driving us backward in our evolutional societal consciousness.


Man, that's a gob full. And a locomotive does not so much "rip apart" as blindly roll over and flatten. Fair enough, but taking a crack at Star Trek is dirty pool. The original series ("Where no man has gone before...") was in large part driven by classical themes and like Ex Machina, made us rethink our assumptions while entertaining us with a Lazy Susan of hot chicks (the word is still out on whether or not Captain Kirk boinked the Blue Girl. Or was she green? Can't recall).

Fruity is a physical literalist. We can no more count on him to appreciate/acknowledge nuance than we can expect a buzzard to whistle Gal Costa's "Samba De Soho." First, there's the problem of lips...

And Sully hates men, according to Moose? Here I was thinking Moose was a girl all this time. Shows you what I know. Or don't.

JL


Ward Trotter

Trad climber
May 16, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
the Blue Girl. Or was she green?

Green:
a green-skinned Orion slave girl

Played by Yvonne Craig who was Batgirl in Batman opposite Adam West.


High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 16, 2015 - 04:47pm PT
Fuk, troll Locker is back.

.....

Gee, I hope this isn't a harbinger of things to come...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edB-JJqpDlY

http://www.gofundme.com/srglegalfund

A pox on anybody here who ever coerces / menaces another to have to start a gofundme page for something like this.

.....

Haha, talk about a gob-full...

We can no more count on him to appreciate-acknowledge nuance than we can... -LG

Nuanced enough, appreciative enough, to consider varieties of free will, varieties of god concepts, varieties of "deterministic" where vast majority of others don't. And that's just for starters.

.....

Moose, you're not a Star Trek fan - that is VERY VERY WEIRD man.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
May 16, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
Sez Fruity: Nuanced enough, appreciative enough, to consider varieties of free will, varieties of god concepts, varieties of "deterministic" where vast majority of others don't. And that's just for starters.
--


But you're look at all those things strictly on your own terms. Meaning you're not so much looking as pidgeonholing according to how they measure up to and confirm the right answer you already have in your head. When Paul said the bible was literature, not a historical document, what do you think he meant?

I recall a prof I had in a lit class who asked us students what in our lives could be better understood and communicated and known by way of symbol, metaphor and so forth, as opposed to numerical notation or quantitative description. The black and white thinkers in the group could think of little to nothing because they could never shut up and stop calculating - and that's where the nuance is encountered, in the place where the numbers run dry and the symbols, sense, and song of life plays in subtle tones. To the literalist, there simply is no such realm, or thought it was "unreal."

JL
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
May 16, 2015 - 06:49pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 16, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
Yea, "To BOLDLY go where no man has gone before". I know the theme. I watched them all, when I was a kid. Afterall it was written primarily for the pleasure seeking boys aged 12-19 coming on at 4pm right after school. Never heard of any girl Trekkies! So what are we left with today, 40 yrs later? Sure it maybe spawned the imagination, of hurling through space in our lazyboy as a handsome dictator with hundreds of single people jumping to his every wihm. Barking out commands and questions to an infinite knowledgeable computer anywhere in his ship without the labourus action of lifting a finger or scrolling with a mouse. Just utter "speagetti and meatballs" and it appears in a box. No need to pull over for gas, the ship has an endless amount of free energy. So no need for money!

So to the materialist, yea this would be heaven. Goin where ever you want, doing whatever comes by, eating whatever comes to mind, being single doin whoever crosses your path. And never second guessing if you can afford it or not. And if anyone were to get in your way, just elimate them!

What was the name of the episode where the "Enterprise" went to the planet of all females? I remember all the male officers sitting around on on marble dressed in Greek garb being fed grapes by beautiful women after a night of who knows what, exclaiming to Capt. Kirk, "this is the best planet ever!" All except Spoock ofcourse, who undoubtly saved them in the end.

No, I think this series did NOTHING to forward societal relationships or morals. Capt Kirk stuck his bonner in every quadrant he could get it up in. And he left many a single moms around the universe, and has never paid a dollar in child support : (
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 16, 2015 - 07:58pm PT
Hey BASE, where are you?

Re: those Nova shows, I DIDN'T really care that much for'em.

But: KVCR tv in L.A. For the past few weeks have been airing the best unbiased truthful Christian history and ALL mans history of that time ever seen on a TV. IMO.

Here's tonight's:

[quote]http://www.locatetv.com/tv/ancient-roads-from-christ-to-constantine/9092477[/quote]

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 16, 2015 - 08:23pm PT

(eg, by ISIS, by Frank Graham and Pat Robertson, by Blu)

Sweet! thanks for mentioning my name in the ilks of ur most hated : (
Shall I add you to mine too: HFCS=Hitler? He also a science guy, who hated Religion and all Religious.

Seriously, if you were a turin machine,and as mature as you've made ur self out, I'd swear your only 17..: (
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
May 16, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
You’re getting sloppy and confusing yourself. Think. What becomes disorganized is not the egg but the state of the concept of the egg. There never was an egg to begin with (MikeL)

I admit I got a little sloppy as I scrambled it, but it sure tasted like an egg. Guess I should know better.

. . . (who John, silly rabbit, calls "prodigies," and who as science geeks, they readily agree with this prodigy designation, minus the snide overtones) who are big into Insight meditation like to point to so-called virtual particles*, which are constantly popping in and out of existence (JL)

Wow, I am really impressed with this explanation! This makes it incredibly clear that from no-thingness all things do indeed arise. Thank you so much for showing me the error of my thinking, John!

Just think, these prodigies, when meditating, actually experience these tiny entities, much as John does! Please ask them to divulge how doth dwell the universe inside Planck spheres, as related by jammer. That one has me puzzled.

Now I must understand how my computer - arisen from the virtual vacuum - is actually here. So little time, so much to do . . .




*"a virtual particle is an explanatory conceptual entity that is found in mathematical calculations about quantum field theory. It refers to mathematical terms that have some appearance of representing particles inside a subatomic process such as a collision. Virtual particles, however, do not appear directly amongst the observable and detectable input and output quantities of those calculations, which refer only to actual, as distinct from virtual, particles. Virtual particle terms represent "particles" that are said to be 'off mass shell'. For example, they can progress backwards in time, do not conserve energy[dubious – discuss], and can travel faster than light" (Wiki)
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