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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 16, 2014 - 10:25am PT
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I figure aid climbing is using gear for forward progress.
If didn't use gear for forward progress I call it a free climb that I fell on a lot.
But then again, I have low standards.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 16, 2014 - 10:39am PT
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You know when you do it free...AND, when you don't.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:22am PT
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I see FFA = first female ascent a lot these days.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:35am PT
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Words have definitions, you shouldn't be asking a bunch of idiots their opinions.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:42am PT
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FA - bottom to top by any means
Two definitions I've seen used for FFA
FFA - lead bottom to top of a pitch, without 'falls' or direct aid for upward progress.
FFA - lead bottom to top of a pitch, without direct aid.
The first allows for free climbing past a hook placement, then step down, use the hook to place the fixed gear, then progress up past it afterwards via free climbing and say that the moves were all freed. There is still resting involved on direct aid though in that scenario.
The second scenario permits for NO aid on a pitch. Any hang, taint, grab of draw, etc. would mean that it is only a FA.
FTR - permits a free climbing free ascent with protection placed above.
Pre-placing gear for a FFA is equivalent to an FTR, IMHO. While it may be common place, it doesn't meet the traditional definitions of an FFA, but then again any fixed gear is in the same vein, so its hard to argue not reporting it as an FFA, especially on really big walls.
FFANPPG - First Free Ascent No Pre Placed Gear <-- Trademarked!!!
Separately, how you report the grade is a different beast.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:48am PT
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I like Patey's definition for a free climb; no charge for spectators.
But since hanging belays can be strategically placed, a FFA must dispense with ANY hanging belays!
Get a longer rope or simulclimb or free solo, but don't whine like a child about aid climbers getting to hang.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
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FTR - permits a free climbing free ascent with protection placed above.
Pre-placing gear for a FFA is equivalent to an FTR, IMHO. While it may be common place, it doesn't meet the traditional definitions of an FFA, but then again any fixed gear is in the same vein, so its hard to argue not reporting it as an FFA, especially on really big walls.
haha seems like here is where the FA team has a big choice to make! It could be a different topic for a discussion completely. Do you aid the pitch, work it, pre place gear (if it is fiddly and can't really be placed on lead) and pinkpoint it, or do you aid it, add bolts and red point it?
Personally if I aid a pitch on a route that is going to be a long free route, and gear is sh#t or would require working the pitch and leaving the pre-placed pieces to get the 'pinkpoint' I would rather add bolts and make it an enjoyable route for others. Especially if the route is quality. If it is easily approached one to two pitch route, I might be happy with a pink point or maybe can add bolts to it, depending on where it is located etc.
How much one climbs nor where they live does not automatically mean their consciousness becomes a climbing zombie ......
It does not. Does having near 25,000 post make you a climbing forum zombie at least? ;) We all are zombies in a way, even though everyone (their ego) would like to believe their mind is free, or at least more free than the other dude's.
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Laine
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Sep 16, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
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The difference between doing a repeat ascent of a route verses the first ascent, is like buying a movie ticket or actually being Robert De Niro
Nice.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
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This thread comes a few years too late for Bachar's input, but I have this very fuzzy recollection (or imagination?) that he had once opined that the Bachar-Yerian or any other hook-bolted lead remains 5.11 A0 even once all the moves are done free, if you clip those aid-placed bolts for pro. I am sure, though, no imagination about it, that the whole point of those routes was to do some great climbing on fantastic rock with a maximum reasonable degree of adventure, and telling exactly how the deed was done; what label to use wasn't of much concern, or wasn't then.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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What if your FA was downclimbed free solo first? Do you have to go up for it to be an ascent?
Do you have to get up to get down?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 16, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
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I think Vitality has it figured out. cragging the standards are very strict. Something really big and dangerous in the mountains where pulling a rope and reclimbing a pitch would be stupid there is probobly a bit more wiggle room.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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They did not send.
Redpointing a 5.12 on Latok would be gnar. Sweet crimps close to 7,000 M. He should have gone for it.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 16, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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FTR - permits a free climbing free ascent with protection placed above.
Pre-placing gear for a FFA is equivalent to an FTR, IMHO. While it may be common place, it doesn't meet the traditional definitions of an FFA, but then again any fixed gear is in the same vein, so its hard to argue not reporting it as an FFA, especially on really big walls.
haha seems like here is where the FA team has a big choice to make! It could be a different topic for a discussion completely. Do you aid the pitch, work it, pre place gear (if it is fiddly and can't really be placed on lead) and pinkpoint it, or do you aid it, add bolts and red point it?
Personally if I aid a pitch on a route that is going to be a long free route, and gear is sh#t or would require working the pitch and leaving the pre-placed pieces to get the 'pinkpoint' I would rather add bolts and make it an enjoyable route for others. Especially if the route is quality. If it is easily approached one to two pitch route, I might be happy with a pink point or maybe can add bolts to it, depending on where it is located etc.
Exactly (about choice)... I think that's why Robbins wanted to have a principle to appeal to for First Ascents in the Golden Age. Because there is a choice to be made, an ethical decision with impact (however perceived) down the road for the next generation. The tactics appealed to can make a difference in the final product, but they don't always.
Side note, I sometimes think that those who never ask the questions about ethics, aren't comfortable with principled approaches and would be ok with 'I became a climber because there are no rules'
I like to think I'm more flexible in my approach than my online postings make me out to be, but there is a outer limit whichever direction one takes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 16, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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by wiggleroom I mean lower to the last stance and then do the section clean. not acceptable for modern cragging standards but I would not hold it against anyone on a really big FA climb. Redpoint the standard is much higher as you have none of the hard labor that the FA party had to deal with.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
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It's all semantics.
Southern Belle seems legit example.
On the other hand is bashing the rock to make pin scars and form a hand hold.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
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Are you talking only human FA's and FFA'S. Back when my eyesight was still acute, I often saw reptiles, rodents, and insects scampering ahead of me on the few climbs I claimed to first ascent. Just sayin, it's all relative.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:34pm PT
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Vitaliy:
i'm thinking your friend in the op is a [closeted?] boulderer... haha...
don't let him lead you down a path of unnecessary questioning.
just because a person does all of the moves, doesn't necessarily mean they freed it...
that weighting gear mid-pitch negates a free ascent should be as unquestioned as mom, apple pie, and the american dream... hahaha.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
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FA - bottom to top by any means
FFA - lead bottom to top of a pitch, without 'falls' or direct aid for upward progress.
This is it for me. If i had to aid to put it up, i'd lower and pull the rope or call it a0 and either come back or leave it for the next lucky soul... I don't believe it's a0 if you use preplaced fixed gear though. That's taking it to the extreme.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Sep 17, 2014 - 12:17am PT
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upon further reflection, this whole thread was started with a bit of a french premise...
if we're going to have a real debate we should be looking instead to the huberbaum...
iirc, by their definition one couldn't consider a multipitch ascent free, if a climber took one fall or made one midpitch weight on gear. didn't matter if one returned to the belay point. only way to consider a multipitch an ffa after a midpitch fall was to return to the ground and restart from the ground completing the entire climb without falls...
so, anybody questioning whether they can consider a mid pitch gear weight a free climb or not, should go eat a 24 oz steak and some freedom fries...
and then meditate on ze germans, while repeatedly rewatching that chopper, harden the f*#k up video...
hahaha.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2014 - 12:31am PT
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This one is easy: FA/FFA = 1/F
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