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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 15, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
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On a drive to a crag, a friend asked me to define a FFA. I told him that usually it means to free climb some route that has been aided in the past. The leader must climb without falls and 'sent' the pitch(es). He asked me, "but what if the first ascent party climbed the route free, but the leader hung on a hook to place a bolt, or on a piece to clean a crack ahead, is that considered an aid climb? Another party can actually claim a FFA in this case? Cuz I do not think the line needs a FFA if a leader used a hang on one of the ten pitches to clean a section but otherwise climbed it free?" Couldn't really disagree with that. But what does the internet say?
So I was brainstorming and a few questions came up...
If you are doing a first ascent, would you give it a technical and an aid rating if you climb up, use a hook to drill a bolt, but climb to and past that bolt free? What if you hung on the bolt to get the pump out of your calves after drilling, but otherwise climbed to and past it free? When would you give a free vs free and aid rating? Are there any exceptions?
PS: These questions are silly but would love to hear if opinions on this topic are different...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 15, 2014 - 11:52pm PT
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often working a route (like bolting from hooks) and all the shenanigans that go into it are "forgiven" when the team does the route ground up cleanly...
in some ways, the team forgoes the credit for FA on aid having done all the moves free on the run through after everything is in place (not best style, but fun anyway!).
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 15, 2014 - 11:57pm PT
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If I even say anything about a first ascent or descent..
I simply describe it as accurately as possible.
Example .. 3 pitches p1 4th class.. p2 4th class pulled on gear.. 3rd pitch 5.3d stepped on pin.
In this case it would simply be a FA
Next person to come along might rate it... FFA 4th class .. or "scramble up some crap".. couldn't find the route. Did find an old pin though.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Sep 16, 2014 - 12:11am PT
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IMO - if I hang to drill, I have to lower to the last no-hands rest then climb from there, to call it free.
DMT
Gunna agree with DMT on this one. As long as you return to a no hand's rest or the ground and redo a section that has aid on it for whatever reason, it's an FA. I'd be surprised if someone climbs a route with a hang and calls it an FA without giving it an A0, A1, rating to explain that,
but ethics are grey and change over time for someone. I can see a person justifying a million things to themselves based upon past experience, telling themselves, "I've lowered before, this section is only 5.whatever, I know I can do it, no need to lower, waste of time, need to get going, blah blah blah and then call it good.
It's all in the head of the leader and follower to decide how close "truth" is to "fact" when reporting an FA. The earlier yo are in your FA career, the more your reports seems to be about fact whereas the later you are in your career, the more you care about truth.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Sep 16, 2014 - 12:16am PT
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I have to lower to the last no-hands rest then climb from there
What if the route is 3 overhanging pitches?
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aguacaliente
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:10am PT
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Strictly speaking, if you have to pay an entry fee to get into the park it is not a free ascent.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:47am PT
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If i do all kinds of shenanigans to get it cleaned and get the bolts in it is an FA. I almost always try to come back the next weekend and free it. I think on a verry big route with only a few hangs to drill clean or trundel there might be a bit more wiggle room for simply calling it an FA and being done with it. but i have never done a really big fa. 3 pitches is my longest and that is still just cragging.
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Gagner
climber
Boulder
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Sep 16, 2014 - 05:44am PT
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It's not free until someone has climbed it bottom to top without hanging - at all, in my book. Hanging includes hanging belays.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 16, 2014 - 07:04am PT
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Sport Climbing and Aid Climbing are basically the same thing.
If an aid climb was changed to a sport climb then there is still no FFA.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 16, 2014 - 07:16am PT
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FFA is the first free ascent, without aid.
Install permanent manufactured belay ledges on all overhanging multi-pitch free routes, hanging belays are stupid anyways.
The difference between doing a repeat ascent of a route verses the first ascent, is like buying a movie ticket or actually being Robert De Niro.
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coolrockclimberguy69
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:01am PT
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Sport Climbing and Aid Climbing are basically the same thing.
If an aid climb was changed to a sport climb then there is still no FFA.
Translation: I am sofa king we todd it.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:07am PT
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These questions are silly
Yes
This what happens to people who take this sh!t way too serious .....
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Barbarian
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:10am PT
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Climb a route from the ground up without pulling or hanging on any gear in any manner...the ascent was free.
Does it matter? Only for those who values lists and records more than the experience of the climb itself.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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"If an aid climb was changed to a sport climb then there is still no FFA."...
WTF???
Shorter, climbs
Free is pretty simple, at least in my little mind.
No hanging on gear...
Hooking to drill, hanging on gear to place pro or to clean, etc.
if you do any of this stuff, you did a FA.
then you still need to climb it free.
Extra long climbs.... well I'll go with DMT
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:18am PT
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Hahahaha ^^^^
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:27am PT
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When I read the OP, the thought immediately came to mind, who got the FFA of the BY? Did Bachar come back and lead it without hanging (OK, showing my history knowledge)? I imagine that Bachar wouldn't consider it a free route until he got it without hangs.
BITD, when I was hanging off hooks and drilling, we didn't consider the pitch free until it was lead from the belay--as a party coming up to do the route would do it. I understand Dingus' model of lowering to the last rest, and if it's an obvious ledge that works too, I suppose.
I remember going up on the West Face of the Sentinel, thinking it had an FFA. Ha! That was a pretty fun, and funny, ascent.
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rincon
Trad climber
Coarsegold
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Sep 16, 2014 - 09:17am PT
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"but what if the first ascent party climbed the route free, but the leader hung on a hook to place a bolt, or on a piece to clean a crack ahead, is that considered an aid climb? Another party can actually claim a FFA in this case? Cuz I do not think the line needs a FFA if a leader used a hang on one of the ten pitches to clean a section but otherwise climbed it free?" Couldn't really disagree with that. But what does the internet say?
The other party can claim anything they want, but it doesn't make it true!
On a ten pitch route, if you hung on gear to place a bolt or whatever during the FA, but lowered and climbed it clean, or the follower climbed it clean, then it has been climbed free. Another party can come along and do the first redpoint, or all clean ascent, but you already climbed everything free. On the FFA of The Salathe Wall, Skinner and Piana hangdogged a lot, but still claimed the FFA, because at least one of them lead every pitch all free.
On short routes, after you finish doing all the hooking and hangdogging, you gotta pull the rope and lead it clean. Or just refer to what Guy wrote, I learned everything from him :)
Word.
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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Sep 16, 2014 - 09:47am PT
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When I read the OP, the thought immediately came to mind, who got the FFA of the BY? Did Bachar come back and lead it without hanging (OK, showing my history knowledge)? I imagine that Bachar wouldn't consider it a free route until he got it without hangs.
For the bolts placed from hooks, he lowered to the belay and pulled the rope. The first two pitches took a day of work each. He did a continuous no falls ascent on the third day.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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So if leader yanked on pieces but follower climbed the pitch free it still would be 5.8 (or whatever hardest free moves that the leader made), C1 correct?
I lean towards DMT's definition about routes that the FA party does not care too much about and Rincon/Hocking's definition for routes that the FA party actually cares about and wants to 'send.' I think if you are climbing a 2500 ft bigwall in a remote range you do not have to give it a A0 rating if you hung on a hook on a few pitches to drill a bolt, than were lowered to a stance and still climbed through that section free. You can say that in your report to keep it honest, but you can still give it a VI 5.11b or whatever.
Werner, seems like you care enough to log onto this site and post close to 25,000 times, and live in Yosemite for majority of your life? I don't deny that I care about climbing, it is something I have a lot of passion for. I don't think I will fool anyone if I act like I don't give a sh#t about it. Since I climbed for a fraction of the time that you have, I met a small fraction of climbers out there. At times I like to ask questions online and see what this 'community' has to say - topics that do not involve Obama, ISIS and Republicans can be fun to look at for a change. Since climbing is so personal, it is quite interesting how other folks see things. There is no right or wrong, there are personal preferences, which change from route to route and pitch to pitch at times. Climbing is anarchy homez, but still, let's talk some climbing..
God of sweet crimp bless you all! :)
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 16, 2014 - 10:10am PT
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You asked for an opinion on this forum.
Mine was "I don't give a sh!t".
I'm a nobody like everyone else.
How much one climbs nor where they live does not automatically mean their consciousness becomes a climbing zombie ......
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 16, 2014 - 10:25am PT
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I figure aid climbing is using gear for forward progress.
If didn't use gear for forward progress I call it a free climb that I fell on a lot.
But then again, I have low standards.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 16, 2014 - 10:39am PT
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You know when you do it free...AND, when you don't.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:22am PT
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I see FFA = first female ascent a lot these days.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:35am PT
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Words have definitions, you shouldn't be asking a bunch of idiots their opinions.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:42am PT
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FA - bottom to top by any means
Two definitions I've seen used for FFA
FFA - lead bottom to top of a pitch, without 'falls' or direct aid for upward progress.
FFA - lead bottom to top of a pitch, without direct aid.
The first allows for free climbing past a hook placement, then step down, use the hook to place the fixed gear, then progress up past it afterwards via free climbing and say that the moves were all freed. There is still resting involved on direct aid though in that scenario.
The second scenario permits for NO aid on a pitch. Any hang, taint, grab of draw, etc. would mean that it is only a FA.
FTR - permits a free climbing free ascent with protection placed above.
Pre-placing gear for a FFA is equivalent to an FTR, IMHO. While it may be common place, it doesn't meet the traditional definitions of an FFA, but then again any fixed gear is in the same vein, so its hard to argue not reporting it as an FFA, especially on really big walls.
FFANPPG - First Free Ascent No Pre Placed Gear <-- Trademarked!!!
Separately, how you report the grade is a different beast.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:48am PT
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I like Patey's definition for a free climb; no charge for spectators.
But since hanging belays can be strategically placed, a FFA must dispense with ANY hanging belays!
Get a longer rope or simulclimb or free solo, but don't whine like a child about aid climbers getting to hang.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 12:21pm PT
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FTR - permits a free climbing free ascent with protection placed above.
Pre-placing gear for a FFA is equivalent to an FTR, IMHO. While it may be common place, it doesn't meet the traditional definitions of an FFA, but then again any fixed gear is in the same vein, so its hard to argue not reporting it as an FFA, especially on really big walls.
haha seems like here is where the FA team has a big choice to make! It could be a different topic for a discussion completely. Do you aid the pitch, work it, pre place gear (if it is fiddly and can't really be placed on lead) and pinkpoint it, or do you aid it, add bolts and red point it?
Personally if I aid a pitch on a route that is going to be a long free route, and gear is sh#t or would require working the pitch and leaving the pre-placed pieces to get the 'pinkpoint' I would rather add bolts and make it an enjoyable route for others. Especially if the route is quality. If it is easily approached one to two pitch route, I might be happy with a pink point or maybe can add bolts to it, depending on where it is located etc.
How much one climbs nor where they live does not automatically mean their consciousness becomes a climbing zombie ......
It does not. Does having near 25,000 post make you a climbing forum zombie at least? ;) We all are zombies in a way, even though everyone (their ego) would like to believe their mind is free, or at least more free than the other dude's.
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Laine
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Sep 16, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
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The difference between doing a repeat ascent of a route verses the first ascent, is like buying a movie ticket or actually being Robert De Niro
Nice.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:36pm PT
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This thread comes a few years too late for Bachar's input, but I have this very fuzzy recollection (or imagination?) that he had once opined that the Bachar-Yerian or any other hook-bolted lead remains 5.11 A0 even once all the moves are done free, if you clip those aid-placed bolts for pro. I am sure, though, no imagination about it, that the whole point of those routes was to do some great climbing on fantastic rock with a maximum reasonable degree of adventure, and telling exactly how the deed was done; what label to use wasn't of much concern, or wasn't then.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 16, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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What if your FA was downclimbed free solo first? Do you have to go up for it to be an ascent?
Do you have to get up to get down?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 16, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
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I think Vitality has it figured out. cragging the standards are very strict. Something really big and dangerous in the mountains where pulling a rope and reclimbing a pitch would be stupid there is probobly a bit more wiggle room.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2014 - 04:30pm PT
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They did not send.
Redpointing a 5.12 on Latok would be gnar. Sweet crimps close to 7,000 M. He should have gone for it.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 16, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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FTR - permits a free climbing free ascent with protection placed above.
Pre-placing gear for a FFA is equivalent to an FTR, IMHO. While it may be common place, it doesn't meet the traditional definitions of an FFA, but then again any fixed gear is in the same vein, so its hard to argue not reporting it as an FFA, especially on really big walls.
haha seems like here is where the FA team has a big choice to make! It could be a different topic for a discussion completely. Do you aid the pitch, work it, pre place gear (if it is fiddly and can't really be placed on lead) and pinkpoint it, or do you aid it, add bolts and red point it?
Personally if I aid a pitch on a route that is going to be a long free route, and gear is sh#t or would require working the pitch and leaving the pre-placed pieces to get the 'pinkpoint' I would rather add bolts and make it an enjoyable route for others. Especially if the route is quality. If it is easily approached one to two pitch route, I might be happy with a pink point or maybe can add bolts to it, depending on where it is located etc.
Exactly (about choice)... I think that's why Robbins wanted to have a principle to appeal to for First Ascents in the Golden Age. Because there is a choice to be made, an ethical decision with impact (however perceived) down the road for the next generation. The tactics appealed to can make a difference in the final product, but they don't always.
Side note, I sometimes think that those who never ask the questions about ethics, aren't comfortable with principled approaches and would be ok with 'I became a climber because there are no rules'
I like to think I'm more flexible in my approach than my online postings make me out to be, but there is a outer limit whichever direction one takes.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 16, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
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by wiggleroom I mean lower to the last stance and then do the section clean. not acceptable for modern cragging standards but I would not hold it against anyone on a really big FA climb. Redpoint the standard is much higher as you have none of the hard labor that the FA party had to deal with.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
extraordinaire
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Sep 16, 2014 - 08:38pm PT
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It's all semantics.
Southern Belle seems legit example.
On the other hand is bashing the rock to make pin scars and form a hand hold.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
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Are you talking only human FA's and FFA'S. Back when my eyesight was still acute, I often saw reptiles, rodents, and insects scampering ahead of me on the few climbs I claimed to first ascent. Just sayin, it's all relative.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:34pm PT
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Vitaliy:
i'm thinking your friend in the op is a [closeted?] boulderer... haha...
don't let him lead you down a path of unnecessary questioning.
just because a person does all of the moves, doesn't necessarily mean they freed it...
that weighting gear mid-pitch negates a free ascent should be as unquestioned as mom, apple pie, and the american dream... hahaha.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Sep 16, 2014 - 11:47pm PT
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FA - bottom to top by any means
FFA - lead bottom to top of a pitch, without 'falls' or direct aid for upward progress.
This is it for me. If i had to aid to put it up, i'd lower and pull the rope or call it a0 and either come back or leave it for the next lucky soul... I don't believe it's a0 if you use preplaced fixed gear though. That's taking it to the extreme.
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Sep 17, 2014 - 12:17am PT
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upon further reflection, this whole thread was started with a bit of a french premise...
if we're going to have a real debate we should be looking instead to the huberbaum...
iirc, by their definition one couldn't consider a multipitch ascent free, if a climber took one fall or made one midpitch weight on gear. didn't matter if one returned to the belay point. only way to consider a multipitch an ffa after a midpitch fall was to return to the ground and restart from the ground completing the entire climb without falls...
so, anybody questioning whether they can consider a mid pitch gear weight a free climb or not, should go eat a 24 oz steak and some freedom fries...
and then meditate on ze germans, while repeatedly rewatching that chopper, harden the f*#k up video...
hahaha.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Sep 17, 2014 - 12:31am PT
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This one is easy: FA/FFA = 1/F
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2014 - 09:43am PT
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Hubers are bad ass, but they do not set the rules for all climbers in the universe. I think personally I would not care to repeat a long multi pitch route if I was climbing a crack system, came across a path of dirt in a spot that is not a crux, took, cleaned it, got lowered to below and resumed free climbing. If I had to hang to place a bolt near the crux it would depend on if my hang let me get a crucial rest or advance my stance. If I did not receive a benefit from this hang, other than placing gear, I wouldn’t feel like I need to ‘redpoint’ the pitch if I am on a FA with intention for a free route. When you are doing FAs of long free routes there are all kinds of situations. You can be climbing on easier terrain after the crux, even standing at a stance, but have the need to anchor yourself in and pull a giant loose block. I wouldn’t call the route 5.10 C0 if I did that on a FA. If I was doing a one pitch route at a crag, it would be very easy to be lowered and redpoint, if I can/care. I think Limpingcrab summarized it best. If I was doing a FFA of an aid route, I would lean towards what Hubers say – no falls, no takes by the leader. FFA team already has 75% of the work done, unless the FFAers are figuring out major variations, they have a topo, know the route goes, so in order to make a statement about the style they have to keep their ascent to the highest standard. I mean, in the end it is just personal satisfaction with your ascent. Either you know you did your best, or you didn’t. Are you happy with the work you put in, or you are not.
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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Sep 17, 2014 - 10:01am PT
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Vitaly,
Whether or not you thought you did your best in the hypothetical situation you proposed in your latest post, you couldn't claim a free ascent if the ascent included a hang. You'd have to lower to a no hands rest at a minimum. However, you could certainly claim the FA. I think it would be disingenuous to report your hypothetical ascent as a free ascent.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
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Jon, if I wanted to CLAIM a free ascent of an aid route, I would for sure do it without hangs or takes etc. If I was doing some routes that I didn’t care to advertise, it would be up to me when to call it good, what sort of free I am happy with, since I am not claiming it to anyone aside to myself, it doesn’t matter.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Sep 17, 2014 - 12:18pm PT
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If a climb is established as a free climb is aided on a later ascent, is it the FAA? The BY might go at 5.8 A5 ???
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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Sep 17, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
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Vitaliy,
I'm not trying to be combative. Rather simply joining in the discussion and responding to a situation you presented. I think if you hang on a pitch regardless of the reason and in spite of whether or not you think you benefitted from the hang or not, it is aid.
-Jon
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 17, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
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I like the FAA idea! I'm gonna start bagging all of the first aid ascents! Nutcracker here I come
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Sep 17, 2014 - 01:36pm PT
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The only way I ever get a first ascent, is when I get lost. I know it, by holds coming off in my hands and getting showered by choss.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
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I'm not trying to be combative.
Same here. Just clarifying.
Drive By Shooting in Yosemite was an aid climb for me last Sunday. :( Unfortunately I think not the first. haha
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 17, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
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To me, a successful free ascent is one where all the gear was completely unnecessary (except for mental comfort). The gear was never weighted, at belays or otherwise. If you were strong of mind, a free ascent could have very well been a free solo.
Because of the logistics on longer routes, the definition of "free" gets bent to accommodate the need for folks to claim a free ascent. But in our hearts (as has been said), we all know when we really free the sucker.
Unless you're sponsored and your 8a resume matters, the style of your ascent should matter only to you, I suppose. (It goes to say, barring the destruction of the resource!)
Onsight Flash FA that's all free, the best style ever!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 17, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
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I think some of the folks posting on this subject might not have a clue what it is like free climbing with 45lbs of steel, alluminum, plastic and lithium Ion hanging off your ass on terrain that has never been touched by humans. You get extra point simply for lugging that crap up the cliff. On a really big route lowering to the last no hands stance is more than sufficient INMOP
Cragging, thanks to sport climbers you have to lower to the ground and pull the rope. BINTD you could lower but leave the rope running through the highest gear, switch leaders and send a fresh rope gun up there and still get the FFA. Sport climbers ruined all that and gave us even more rules;)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 17, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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The difference between doing a repeat ascent of a route verses the first ascent, is like buying a movie ticket or actually being Robert De Niro
You talkin to me?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2014 - 09:24pm PT
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The gear was never weighted, at belays or otherwise. If you were strong of mind, a free ascent could have very well been a free solo.
I don't always do first free ascents of 5.6 routes, but when I do, I do not weight the gear at belays. ;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 18, 2014 - 02:50am PT
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Vitality M for the win!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 18, 2014 - 07:40am PT
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I don't always do first free ascents of 5.6 routes, but when I do, I do not weight the gear at belays. ;)
Ah, but can the opposite be said?
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