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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 11:14am PT
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It's amazing to witness the power of a cult to compartmentalize - to suspend a person's analytical capacity with regards to their own faith even as they vigorously apply it to other similarly unfounded beliefs.
The true power of Christianity is that love really is the answer; without the empty promises, the phoney 'gifts', without the self-delusion that death can be escaped and the divisiveness it promotes, the tired, worn out end-of-the-world fantasies, without the bludgeon of 'perfection' and 'purity'. Heaven is here, if we choose to see it, and our brief lives here have meaning, if we choose to realize it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 29, 2014 - 11:15am PT
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Has anything changed? Now as then, people have a number of lives available to them and they chose from those lives the one they prefer. When the US emptied its mental institutions some portion of those people were able to choose homelessness. In that life there was at least more freedom.
How would you know that people 3000yrs ago had a "number of lives" to choose from, for that matter how do you know people today do? Seems like most of the worlds population is poverty stricken, compared to your standards. Do you believe they choose that path? Sure education and knowledge can help eleviate poverty(and we should focus on that for the future), but what of the 4-5 billion in poverty TODAY?? How do you suppose we educate them? What HAS changed is that common folk, like you and me have risen above the stranglehold of the powerful controllers(ie, the governments) and we have the ability to say and do something about it!
What NEEDS to change is our evolutionized animalistic attitude of "only the strongest will survive", then stop in our tracks and offer those not as privileged a hand up.
i bbelieve "the christian way" has never really been worried about the future, since our faith IS eternal life. We're mostly devoted to TODAY, and dealing with what God puts in front of our next footstep. While Man goes on whirling his sword, Gods people are left cleaning up the mess! And for this you want to persecute us?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 29, 2014 - 11:23am PT
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Santa and the Easter Bunny are likewise also purely human invented myths.
Another silly argument.
Please tell me how many adult people in history have actually believed in the existence of the literal Easter Bunny or Santa Clause. How many people have been martyred for believing in them?
And, again, I'm not arguing that just because a bunch of people believe something, that makes it true. That is a ridiculous straw man of my argument.
My argument has been very focused: The apostles did not willingly give up their lives to seal a lie that they themselves knew to be a lie. Period. That just did not happen.
Regarding whether or not Jesus and the apostles actually existed, well, to quote your own arguments about ancient religions: It's impossible to take seriously the theory that the very people that started any of those religions actually didn't even exist!
You can say whatever you want about the veracity of the content of any given religion. That is a totally other debate. ALL I am arguing is that it is extremely plausible (indeed that opposite is not plausible) to believe that Jesus and the apostles really did exist.
And, assuming that they did exist, and that their accounts are precisely what got the most successful religion in human history started, it strains credulity to theorize that they were promoting (and dying for) what they themselves knew to be a grand lie.
Again, as to the content of what they promoted, that is an entirely different question, and I am not addressing it.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 29, 2014 - 11:31am PT
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it strains credulity to theorize that they were promoting (and dying for) what they themselves knew to be a grand lie.
Yes
These anti religion nutcases in this thread are always projecting how they themselves want it to be or what they themselves believe.
They make up sh!t all the time and project it onto their fantasy world they see thru their stupid distorted blurred eyeballs.
They're all as stupid as the same fools that say they believe in the Easter bunny ....
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 11:32am PT
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The Christian persecution complex is ubiquitous, but seldom, if ever, defined in specific terms. The questioning of Christian beliefs, and the rejection of Christian attempts to force their beliefs on the general population through public policy do not constitute persecution. Christians in America remain free to worship as they please.
Religion is clearly not the answer to poverty - development is. The most developed and highest functioning nations are more secular - and the poorest countries are more religious. Somalia is the most religious nation on earth - and Africa the most religious (and most poverty stricken) continent. In contrast, northern Europe, Japan, and Oceania are the most secular - and among the most developed, nations on earth.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 11:40am PT
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Since we all agree that martyrdom is no proof of the validity of belief, and given that no historical proof exists that the apostles ever actually lived - any discussion of their supposed martyrdom is irrelevant. An assignment of 'extremely plausible' suffers from the total lack of historically supportable evidence. That they were all martyred, to a man, in some very imaginative ways (spears, arrows, boiling oil (oh wait, he survived), beheading, upside down crucifixion, right side up crucifixion, stoning, cliff tossing, dragged by a horse) is...um...instructive. Of course they were! Christians tend leave no stone unthrown when it comes to torture. My God, The Passion!
The Easter Bunny is a child's tale, but Egyptian gods like Amun and Ra reigned for 600 years longer than Christianity has to date.
Did these Egyptian gods really exist? In the minds of their believers, yes. For thousands of years.
Just like Christianity.
POST 420!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Aug 29, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
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Did these Egyptian gods really exist? In the minds of their believers, yes. For thousands of years.
You seem determined to miss the point. I'll say it one more time, slowly now, just for you:
I am not arguing about the veracity of the content of what they believed. I'm simply stating that it is ridiculous to think that the people that start any particular religion WILL intentionally be martyred for what they themselves know to be a lie.
I am also saying that it is ridiculous to think that the very people starting any religion with staying power themselves did not exist.
Got it this time?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 29, 2014 - 12:05pm PT
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The Christian persecution complex is ubiquitous, but seldom, if ever, defined in specific terms.
It's pretty easily recognizable, it's like porn, you know it when you see it!
If my opinion goes against yours in say, homosexual marriage being equal to heterol sexual marriage, or that yanking a fetus is murder. Your dispute with me has not been to why, but to your opinion that i'm trying to force my makebelieve God's morals down your throat. Stick to the facts! i'm doing the voting, not God.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
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"I am also saying that it is ridiculous to think that the very people starting any religion with staying power themselves did not exist."
In other words "I REALLY, REALLY believe this, so it must be true."
It makes little difference whether Ra is fiction, or the person who invented Ra is fiction, or the person who came after him is fiction. If Ra is, in fact, fiction, that fiction has to start somewhere.
Ra, of course, is not a fiction. He rises every day. Now, to be accurate, the god Ra is associated with the sun, but he was much more than that, and he morphed over time - blending with other gods. Still, it's not difficult to imagine how early Egyptians, and most likely many cultures before that, deified the sun in some fashion. After all, the sun really does have the power of life and death over everything. It's also not difficult to imagine how early Egyptians imparted human-like qualities to Ra - that's what we've evolved to do. It's easy to imagine that observing certain rituals at certain times with regards to the sun improved chances of survival and benefited ancient communities.
So where's the lie, exactly?
Humans constantly create their own mythology. It's what we do. What's he or she thinking or feeling about me? We misinterpret a passing gesture, an inflection of voice, and run with it to create a whole back story that is often largely fictional.
Are we lying?
Some Christians recognize the Bible as allegorical, others, over time, have come to view it as literal. This is, again, a common human practice for handed down stories. The Great Flood (did it really happen? Was it based on allegory, or a local disaster?). In this way a local flood eventually covers the whole world, a minor skirmish becomes an epic battle, and 3 story building becomes a cloud raked tower that almost reaches the sun.
Where's the lie?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
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"If my opinion goes against yours in say, homosexual marriage being equal to heterol sexual marriage, or that yanking a fetus is murder. Your dispute with me has not been to why, but to your opinion that i'm trying to force my makebelieve God's morals down your throat. Stick to the facts! i'm doing the voting, not God."
Christians remain free not to have abortions nor enter into same sex marriages. This freedom has never been challenged by anyone, ever.
In contrast, Christians actively seek, in huge numbers (but perhaps not you individually), to impose such strictures on everyone in America. It's not a 'my opinion versus your opinion' thing. It's an imposition of religious law on everyone thing.
No thank you.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 29, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
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Cooperation, competition, exploitation, isolation.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 29, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
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Sorry JR if a missed ur question. Unintentional!
Survival of the Fittest is the backbone of all Evolutionary Theory i thought!
Not true? Please enlighten.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 29, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
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Blu's beef is with nature, not science. He just doesn't realize it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 29, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
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It's cool JR!
No ones been able to answer my questions on "evolution" either.
The Galapagos finches were not as important to Darwin as is often claimed, but they are a good example of micro-evolution. They show us that finches can vary in their morphology, and that natural selection has a role in this.
This study does not give evidence for macro-evolution, and does not prove that natural selection and random mutation could produce the living world as we know it from simple single-celled ancestors. TruthinScience.com
Darwin's theory's barely dealt with species "adjusting" the the environment. My questioned was concerning how the birds got their wings in the first place. Here's an easier one, what made Darwin's Flinches beaks to grow? What caused them to morph???
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 29, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
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That's right Fruity, it's never the messenger just the message.
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Aug 29, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
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Blu, there are answers to all those questions
why don't you just put them in your google search bar and hit enter?
it is SO easy to find things out very quickly nowadays
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 29, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
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Darwin's theory's barely dealt with species "adjusting" the the environment.
No that's pretty much the sole focus of Origin of Species. It's just example after example of hard evidence showing that there is NO meaningful difference between "variations" and "species" (or in modern terms "micro" and "macro" evolution).
You should try reading a little bit about the theory of evolution from somewhere other than a Christian creationist site/book.
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