I offer an alternative to mass spewing about Christianity

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Jawon

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 15, 2014 - 01:00am PT
If there is any hint of self-righteousness or know-it-allness or presumption in this post, I apologize in advance, that is not the intended tone. But let's face it, no one's gettin' anywhere with the recent (and past) threads on Christianity. Too many people lobbing their opinions into the fray. Too many rabbit trails for such a complicated topic. Throw in your philosophical sound bite and run. It doesn't even have to be on topic.

I understand the value of a group discussion with multiple perspectives, but in this case, I believe no one is better for it. I'm writing this during the wee hours after a little nightcap so I may regret this in the morning but... Feel free to PM me if you'd like to have a sincere 1:1 email discussion with a Christian on whatever topic is bugging you. I think this would be time better spent than rattling off quotes and verses in a mass chaos of opinions.

Why should you trust me? You shouldn't. Absolutely not. No way jose. I'm an anonymous virtual voice, with no credentials, and I don't even have a personal photo or a TR on ST. If you have any interest in this at all, let me first refer you to the mature Christian in YOUR circle. But maybe you like this anonymity or maybe you don't know anyone like that or maybe you just inherently trust climbers (really?) Whatever the reason, you have an open door. Isn't this topic too important to NOT be talking about, no matter how painful or annoying it is?

I am just an average joe trying to make sense of this world like everyone else. I will not try to "convert" you, I'm not so vain to think I have such powers. I'm just willing to share how I came to reconcile (or not) some of the tough questions. I won't have all the answers, not even most of the answers, come to think of it, I have no answers at all... but I will share why I do the things I do and why I believe the things I believe. And maybe we'll both be a little richer for it.

So you ask, "who the hell are you?" I try to maintain privacy in cyberspace, but I will share that I'm just a typical middle class family man living in Long Beach CA, 45yo, who has been following Jesus since my late 20's. I'm a data analyst by profession meaning I approach things very methodically and it was no different with my faith. I've been primarily a trad climber for the past couple decades so of course I have a sordid past :) and I'm happy to share more in a more private setting. I wouldn't do this (and haven't) on just any forum, but I've cherished ST as a lurker over the years and this is my little way of participating.

Honestly, this will probably fall on deaf ears and that's fine by me. If I saw this, I think I'd high tail it to the nearest cliff too. But who knows. Here's to all of us being engaged in fruitful conversation.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Aug 15, 2014 - 07:25am PT
I would be a whole lot more intererested in a 2v2 b-ball match. Me and my boi Jesús versus you and whomever you can muster. PM'd.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Aug 15, 2014 - 08:41am PT
Thanks Jawon. Nice offer.
jstan

climber
Aug 15, 2014 - 09:12am PT
7th day people bang on our doors out here all the time with that offer. Haven't the heart to tell them they are about seventy years too late.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Aug 15, 2014 - 09:19am PT
I'm just a typical middle class family man living in Long Beach CA, 45yo, who has been following Jesus since my late 20's

I have been a devout atheist since age five

and I don't feel any need whatsoever to invite anyone to talk to me

why do you?
couchmaster

climber
Aug 15, 2014 - 09:30am PT
Has anyone else expressed interest in learning "Werner's Dog" meditation?


Hey man, it works. Works even better after 5 or 6 bong hits.

They say....

cough








apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Aug 15, 2014 - 09:56am PT
Oooops....skimmed that OP a little too fast....

Actually, I'd say I'm more in Norton's camp...but still finding this theme of threads to be annoying.

Edit question about editing: Did you edit your OP? WTF?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 15, 2014 - 11:01am PT
Norton,

I, for one, would (and sometimes do) PM those for whom I had a question, but didn't think the conversation had any particular worth for anyone else. I have, as I hope you know, a high enough opinion of your intellect and ability to express your views that almost every topic I discuss with you I prefer to do in virtual public, because I think others would want to know what you say.

Christianity, in contrast, strikes me as a topic where most of the discussions are personal, and I think Jawon's OP offers exactly what his title says: an alternative to mass spewing for those with a genuine interest to discuss the topic.

I joined Micronut's topic publicly for at least three reasons:

1. I try to join every depression-related topic because I've found a lot of climbers carry that burden, and I think my experience enables me to talk to other sufferers with credibility and empathy. That's why I ask anyone who wants to talk to PM me (I've even given out my cell number and gotten calls, for which I am grateful);

2. It bothers me when I see mischaracterizations of theological positions, which always surfaces on religious topics, and particularly irritates me when I read bigoted claims about the intelligence of any particular group; and

3. I know, and greatly admire, Micronut, and found the reaction to his thread missing the point of his offer.

I suspect if the OP were someone I didn't know, and the topic did not deal with depression in its subject, I would probably have paid no attention. I checked this topic in the hope that it said essentially what Jawon said, rather than more mass spewing. I say, good for Jawon.

John

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 15, 2014 - 11:04am PT
I have been a devout atheist since age five
I thought you posted in an earlier thread that you were in the seminary?
WBraun

climber
Aug 15, 2014 - 11:13am PT
I have been a devout atheist since age five

Impossible to do.

Atheist can only run their mouths and say there's no God.

But if they were truly an atheist their heart would immediately stop.

Everything manifest in the material world is part parcel of God.

Not even blade of grass can move without God moving it first.

Atheist are stupid, ignorant and arrogant to the complete real facts.

Atheists only have incomplete facts which they "Religiously" spout ......
Jawon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2014 - 11:43am PT
apogee -
Did you edit your OP? WTF?

No, my original post stands as originally submitted. Not sure what you are referring to.


Norton -
I have been a devout atheist since age five
and I don't feel any need whatsoever to invite anyone to talk to me
why do you?

I don't want to perpetuate the very thing I'm trying to avoid with this offer, but this is a valid foundational question that I'll try to quickly answer without inciting another multi-page thread on religion.

If your worldview is true, we all return to dirt. If my worldview is true, there is an eternal implication. That's my guess why many of us who believe in any sort of god may feel a greater need to talk about this. For me, it's not about winning an argument, it's simply about putting potentially THE single-most important decision of our lives on the table.

If you have no interest, I'm cool, I need to get back to reading some TR's anyway :)
tornado

climber
lawrence kansas
Aug 15, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
Everybody is worried about where they are going but few mention where they came from. Where were you before you were born?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Aug 15, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
I was round-house kickin' my way outta my momma's uterus
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 15, 2014 - 08:31pm PT
Everybody is worried about where they are going but few mention where they came from. Where were you before you were born?


A seemingly profound question. We were born, and given souls.
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 15, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
I can't say who said it or when, but someone said they abhorred what some other person had to say--but that they would defend to the death that other person's right to express it.


Hey, it's the new age. You really need to hear everyone.


EDIT: Hell, you probably need to find ways to get along with them.
MisterE

climber
Aug 15, 2014 - 09:09pm PT
I got an alternative, too.

Read some Herman Hesse and gain some true understanding of human nature before you aspire to understand this "God" being - whoever that may be.

You may get bogged down with the basic lesson.
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 15, 2014 - 09:32pm PT
Thanks Jawon . . . question: Are Christians better than Muslims?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 15, 2014 - 09:36pm PT
Good idea E
couchmaster

climber
Aug 16, 2014 - 07:03am PT
Kalimon asked:
"Thanks Jawon . . . question: Are Christians better than Muslims?"

Of course not. However, all Muslims who reject Christ will be BURNING IN HELL FOR ETERNITY whereas all who accept Christs path will be in heaven. That's what I hear anyway. Unless you ask the Muslims, they understandably have a somewhat differing view.

That's why I'm sticking with "Werner's Dog style meditation......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2014 - 07:10am PT
NO Muslim rejects Christ. In Islam, Christ was one of the Prophets.

So now we are back to the "my way of following Christ is God sanctioned, and yours is not"....says the Christian Lutheran to the Christian Methodist.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 16, 2014 - 07:34am PT
Here is my objection:

One of the absolute hallmarks of modern American Christianity is Evangelism, of which one of the primary objectives and purposes is the conversion of non-adherents.

There is a considerable amount of time and effort given to education of the Evangelist as to HOW to convert. There is specific thinking as to who is the most open to this message, and it turns out to be people in crisis, who are abusers out of control, the depressed--as examples.

To a certain degree, it takes on the feel of "coup counting" or how many scalps one accumulates on one's belt.

The extreme of this are cults. And what do they do? They try to cut people they see as weak out of the herd, and isolate them where others cannot see what is being done.

Or in other words, "PM me."

The title of evangelist is often associated with those who lead large meetings like those of Billy Graham, possibly in tents or existing church buildings, or those who address the public in street corner preaching, which targets listeners who happen to pass nearby. It can also be done in small groups or even on a one-to-one basis, but actually it is simply one who spreads the gospel. Increasingly, the internet enables anyone to become an Internet evangelist.

So, it appears that the purpose is not explanation, as stated, but rather to create the opportunity to encircle, and convert.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 18, 2014 - 08:21am PT
QT What's the problem here?

"The problem I have with religion - at every point on the spectrum from moderate to extreme - is that it stands as a permanent denial of the possibility of developing a truly rational, modern, open-ended discussion about the nature of our subjectivity, about the possibility of ethics and spirituality truly in conformity with our rationality as it exists now. Every religious person, every person who is committed to still being a Christian or Jew or Muslim or Buddhist is essentially giving tacit endorsement to the religious divisions in our world and essentially saying we need some measure of mythology, we need some measure of fairytale, we need to pretend on some occasions that we know things that we do not know. And it's simply untrue."

Sam Harris

.....

NO Muslim rejects Christ...

A half-truth if ever there was one. Stick to medicine, doc. Comparative religious studies or analysis is not your wheelhouse.

I remember what a thoughtful piece you wrote concerning end-of-life issues a couple years ago. What's happened since? Maybe too much forum posting and collateral damage?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 18, 2014 - 08:43am PT
Jawon, I haven't clicked on this because the title lead me to expect another atheist spewfest.
You've written thoughtfully and well, for a data cruncher! :-)
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Aug 18, 2014 - 08:57am PT
Knowitall prize goes to Werner. I'm trying to picture the circumstances that caused such a whacky and lonely spiritualist view. Werner, you are a Nutjob.

Werner, you spew anger and judgement. Sounds like religion. I doubt that your mind is open at all.

Humor me. According to Werner's 'logic' all atrocities are by the hand of god, all the ideas of atheists are also caused by god. There is no foundation to that kind of quackery.

Actually, atheists cure disease,heal the sick and create rational social policy, and make the world a reasonable place despite the death-cults effort to end reason. Duh!
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 18, 2014 - 09:08am PT
How many severed heads can a jihadi carry as opposed to a Holy Roman crusader?
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Aug 18, 2014 - 09:26am PT
Scrubbles,
The H bombs were an answer to the religious Nazis, the Religious Japanese and the ongoing religious wars in Europe and the Middle East.
God makes war. Science and reason end wars.
God makes plagues. Science and reason end plagues.
God makes sickness. Science and reason cures sickness.


We had the Dark Ages to see what god's world looks like. No thanks.

There is no god. Fancy creation mythologies are for the weak minded followers. Religion offers nothing but delusion. God is a lie.
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Aug 18, 2014 - 09:32am PT
Franklin Roosevelt ordered the bombs to be built, he was a christian.



And yes, science is wonderful. You couldn't make your silly comment here
without science.



Sandstone- I suppose that would depend on the size of the heads.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2014 - 09:35am PT

A half-truth if ever there was one. Stick to medicine, doc. Comparative religious studies or analysis is not your wheelhouse.

Sorry that you think that Muslims don't revere Christ. You must not know any. I do.

If you think they don't, cite something that says that, don't just tell me I'm wrong. You can look at any thousand websites on the subject, and find that Christ is one of the Muslim Prophets, Peace be unto him.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2014 - 09:37am PT
The atheists keep citing Christian atrocities from long, long ago

Now the Christians hang gay youth from barbed wire, and beat them to death. They are FAR more civilized.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 18, 2014 - 09:48am PT
I'm thinking Toyota pick-up vs. war horse.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 18, 2014 - 09:57am PT
You know, I can almost get the impression you've converted to Islam.

If you're in the know, then you and I both get what I mean by "half-truth." Quit playing games.

If you're a Muslim convert, then you should say so. (Beta: but just don't ever apostasize if you are, not good for your health I hear.)

Earlier you spoke of culture. As Harris says - moderates in Islam give cover to the the fundies and jihadis in Islam. It's too bad modern Arab culture doesn't have much to fall back on minus Islam. It's in a tough spot. The moderates, too, because of it.

I'm thinking you're probably a Karen Armstrong, Chris Hedges or Glenn Greenwald reader.
Jawon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2014 - 10:30am PT
I see that even a thread intended to STOP spewing will be used as an opportunity to spew! On the bright side, I suppose this will just keep the thread alive longer so more people will see my original offer :)

Reilly:
Jawon, I haven't clicked on this because the title lead me to expect another atheist spewfest.
You've written thoughtfully and well, for a data cruncher! :-)

Aw, thanks. I crunch numbers but I enjoy writing as well, which is why I feel I can have a fruitful 1:1 written exchange on topics like this.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 18, 2014 - 10:58am PT
DO NOT watch this video if you don't have a major sense of humor, or if you have a serious problem with the F word.



[Click to View YouTube Video]
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 18, 2014 - 11:16am PT
Once again, an offer of a private conversation for those who want to know about Christianity gets hijacked into a public discussion of "religion," and a demonstration of ignorance of Christian doctrine by those uninterested in knowing it.

Jesus Himself warned that the "religious" would think they were performing a service to God by killing Christians. (See, e.g., John 16:2) Even more bizarre is the contention that "American Christianity" uniquely emphasizes "evangelism," since, in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20), Jesus explicitly instructed his followers to make disciples of all nations.

As for the relative goodness of any group of people, Christian doctrine says that no person is sufficiently good to meet the glory of God, but that every person has infinite worth, because Christ died for all. Christianity is, in fact, one of the foundational sources -- if not the foundational source -- of the concept of the equality and dignity of all humanity.

But enough of doctrine for those who have no interest. If you really care, take up Jawon's or Micronut's offer. If not, leave the thread alone and it will drop off the front page.

John
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2014 - 10:24pm PT
Christianity is, in fact, one of the foundational sources -- if not the foundational source -- of the concept of the equality and dignity of all humanity.

Not in fact, John, in theory.

big, big difference.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Aug 18, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
Knowitall prize goes to Werner. I'm trying to picture the circumstances that caused such a whacky and lonely spiritualist view. Werner, you are a Nutjob.

emptiness. just a mental speculation. i don't see his view as whacky or lonely. i'd love to follow Werner, but lack the nuts. should find them in myself.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2014 - 10:40pm PT
That's just wrong. Why do you want to spout lies to stoke the hate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard#Murder

On the night of October 6, 1998, Shepard met Aaron McKinney (then 22), and Russell Henderson (then 21), at the Fireside Lounge in Laramie, Wyoming.[7][8] It was decided that McKinney and Henderson would give Shepard a ride home.[9] McKinney and Henderson subsequently drove the car to a remote, rural area, and proceeded to rob, pistol-whip, and torture Shepard, tie him to a fence, and leave him to die. According to their court testimony, McKinney and Henderson discovered Shepard's address and intended to steal from his home, as well. Still tied to the fence, Shepard, who was in a coma, was discovered 18 hours later by Aaron Kreifels, a cyclist who initially mistook Shepard for a scarecrow

Oh, and I really enjoyed the nice touch added by the Christian church members who picketed his funeral, and thanked God for his torture and death.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 18, 2014 - 11:14pm PT

Now the Christians hang gay youth from barbed wire, and beat them to death. They are FAR more civilized.

You make it sound as if all Christians today are out to murdering the young homosexual crowd with a trademark barbed wire noose. you wanna use those young men/boys to represent ALL christians? And that one homosexual young man/boy to represent the gay youth?

sounds like ur trying to start a war, not a debate?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 18, 2014 - 11:17pm PT
Now the Christians hang gay youth from barbed wire, and beat them to death. They are FAR more civilized.

Yeah, yeah... and all atheists are like Stalin. Or at least most.

Right?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 18, 2014 - 11:19pm PT
No, I was just giving you nice Christian men the opportunity to repudiate such ugly actions.

You failed.

Now you may think that is unfair. But this was the same tactic used by a number of nice Christian men here, when they decried the lack of Muslim repudiation of the attack on 911, (except that they actually did---but you did not).

thanks for making my case.

No, I don't think that all Christians are ugly bigots. But some are. If you can't keep your own house in order, why would any sane person invite you to tell us how to run ours?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 18, 2014 - 11:45pm PT
If you can't keep your own house in order, why would any sane person invite you to tell us how to run ours?

How, exactly, even in principle, would you suggest that that be done?

You act like "Christianity" is this monolithic hierarchy with some chain of command and disciplinary action and police and so forth.

Billions of good Christians would personally decry such abhorrent behaviors, but, apparently that's not good enough for you. So, what should Christians do to satisfy you?

Yes, there are too many "Christians" in name only. I have personally bashed on them pretty hard in all sorts of threads.

But your "reasoning" is flatly ridiculous!
Jawon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2014 - 12:23am PT
Ken M: No, I was just giving you nice Christian men the opportunity to repudiate such ugly actions.

I, as a Christian man, whole-heartedly repudiate such ugly actions. I guess this thread will stay on the front page for a little longer.
couchmaster

climber
Aug 19, 2014 - 05:40am PT


Holy shitski man. I have several Christian neighbors. They try and act all nice, but I had no idea that they were hanging Gay men from their barbed wire. Thank you for enlightening me Ken M. Now I suppose I have to raze their house or find a way to get even with the bastards for these injustices.

It kind of makes you wonder what the Palestinian guy 2 doors down is doing that I don't know about. They hang all gays in Iran, maybe he supports that.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 19, 2014 - 05:50am PT
45yo, who has been following Jesus since my late 20's.

 so, you're biased to the idea that a god exists.... I guess I'll get back to reality and let the ones who know god better than me fight it out and wait for the proof....
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Aug 19, 2014 - 06:36am PT
Everything manifest in the material world is part parcel of God.

Not even blade of grass can move without God moving it first.

Some gods are little, this one is big^^^.

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 19, 2014 - 09:18am PT
Jesus moves blades of grass twice a month on leaf blower days.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2014 - 10:24am PT
Billions of good Christians would personally decry such abhorrent behaviors, but, apparently that's not good enough for you. So, what should Christians do to satisfy you?

They WOULD? How do you know?

They did NOT.

YOU did not.

I'm not holding all Christians everywhere to a standard. but I'm observing what the Christian men here do and say.

I see excuses why killing gays can be ignored.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2014 - 10:31am PT
Holy shitski man. I have several Christian neighbors. They try and act all nice, but I had no idea that they were hanging Gay men from their barbed wire. Thank you for enlightening me Ken M. Now I suppose I have to raze their house or find a way to get even with the bastards for these injustices.

It kind of makes you wonder what the Palestinian guy 2 doors down is doing that I don't know about. They hang all gays in Iran, maybe he supports that.

couch, irony doesn't often transfer well, but you should see my point if you re-read your post.

I see many Christians taking that exact point of view of their (muslim/hindu, jewish/) neighbors.

I do not think, as do some Christians, that Christianity holds all truth, provides all answers for everyone, contains the only pathway to righteous living. It may for some.

I see, when Christians are in charge, a dictatorship of ideas and actions, just as I do with Jews, Muslims, and all the rest.

It is a function of being human, and particular sects do not supersede that.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2014 - 10:32am PT
To me, it looked like you were using a horrible crime from 16 years ago... an isolated incident... one involving no Christians... to make a sweeping generalization about present day Christians. It looked like a shallow bigoted stereotype, intended to offend. My mistake.

Now, you're referring to supposedly bad behavior on this forum, going back (only) 13 years, to justify your trollery.

Seems like excuses why they can be ignored, in some minds.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 19, 2014 - 10:50am PT
Ken,

The fact that every Christian on ST doesn't immediately change the discussion on this thread to condemn a vicious murder by a non-Christian means what to you? Where are the pastors and churches urging their followers to commit murder of gays, or anyone else they oppose? In contrast, you don't need to look very hard to find churches, pastors and congregations that oppose violence committed against gays, ethnic or racial "minorities" (in California, that's everyone, since no ethnic group consitutes a majority), abortion clinics or others.

Your reasoning escapes me on this. Are Chrisitians supposed to condemn every sin we see? Jesus told us not to judge the actions of unbelievers. Christian doctrine is clear and unambiguous: "Thou shalt not murder" was never repealed. If a Christian, allegedly acting in Christ's name, commits a murder and says that what he or she did is justified in God's sight, you bet we'll denounce it, but your example proves nothing.

John
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Aug 19, 2014 - 10:57am PT
oh, sweet, time to spew:
climbera5

Trad climber
Sacramento
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:00am PT
What I find interesting within these posts is the level of vehemence that atheists object to religion, and Christianity in particular; something that they call fantasy.

I don't believe in Santa Clause or unicorns but I don't go around frothing at the mouth whenever Christmas comes around. I think there's more underneath their vile objections than intellectual meanderings.

The only intelligent post so far is the request to give man a chance to figure out a common and acceptable ethos. Fair enough, that has been attempted over the centuries from the Greeks to Rome to modern day. We've gathered some valuable insights into human nature and how to govern ourselves, but we have done a poor job of addressing our fundamental problem. Star Wars calls it the dark side, others call it sin, but it those dark traits that continually trip us up individually and collectively. Despite out best efforts to enlighten ourselves away from these temptations (greed, power, lust, addiction, etc.) a new generation comes along and repeats these mistakes. Its who we are.

Religion grew out our collective need to grapple with our dark side. Some religions have been hijacked for personal gain; which is reprehensible.

The desire for any Christian to hold a hand out and invite you to learn God's love, mercy, grace, and peace is sincere. The cynical heart will object and cite the old testament, the angry smiting God as a 'no thanks'. They are doing themselves a big disservice and they need to understand the whole story,the entire bible, which is their job, not mine. But if your heart is filled with hate and anger, with loss and regret, then it wouldn't hurt to check it out. That's all that's being offered here. Millions of people can't be all wrong.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:06am PT
Millions of people can't be all wrong.

Sure they can.

.....

For you, Jan...


http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9286682/the-bizarre-and-costly-cult-of-richard-dawkins/

http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/08/19/andrew-brown-really-hates-richard-dawkins/
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:06am PT
Millions of people can't be all wrong.
really?

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:15am PT
Millions of people can certainly all be wrong. United States election results prove that.

The argument that religions differ, so how can any be right incorporates a related fallacy, viz. (1) Since millions can be wrong, billions can be wrong (True. Proof by induction.) "therefore" (2) All religions except atheism are false (obvious non-sequitur.)

The hostility with which the world treats Christians and Christianity should surprise no Christian, since both the Gospels and the Epistles predict it. One need look no farther than Paul's reception in Athens, described in Acts, to see that the reaction to Christianity in a college town has not changed in 2,000 years.

John
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:18am PT
Where are the pastors and churches urging their followers to commit murder of gays, or anyone else they oppose?

EVERY pastor and church that teaches the Bible as the literal, unalterable, definitive word of God, urges their followers to commit murder of gays.

"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"

That's scripture bro!
climbera5

Trad climber
Sacramento
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:19am PT
High Fructose, you just proved my point of how many have hijacked religion for personal gain. This is one great example. Look deeper at the source, not the fringe elements.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:21am PT
They did NOT.

YOU did not.

You HAVE to be trolling. Nobody is as stupid as you make yourself out to be.

End of story.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:24am PT
That's scripture bro!

Bro, if you don't care anything about context, then, yup, you can make the Bible say anything you want.

Interpretation matters in all communication, from this very forum to the Bible. And the fact that many people can (and do) get it wrong does not indicate that there's no fact of the matter that some subset of people can get right.

Reminds me of a funny line: The biggest mistake in communication is the belief that it's happening at all.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:27am PT
The hostility with which the world treats Christians and Christianity should surprise no Christian, since both the Gospels and the Epistles predict it. One need look no farther the Paul's reception in Athens, described in Acts, to see that the reaction to Christianity in a college town has not changed in 2,000 years.

And I, the non-Christian advocate, am chastised for using example that are so very very old. Even 15 years!!! (gasp!!!)
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:29am PT
"If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads"

That's scripture bro!

And where are Christians empowered to carry that out, Bryan? I'm quite familiar whith the Mosaic law, which included the death penalty for working on the Sabbath, or being an unruly child, among other things (although there is no evidence of the latter ever being carried out. Perhaps God gave that one to keep kids in line by the threat.) If you're going to stay in the Mosaic Law, "Thou shalt not murder" forms a major part of that law. "Murder" differs from "kill." Murder has always required the unlawful killing of another.

Jesus went so far as to condemn calling another an idiot as being as wrong as murder. I am aware of no scripture allowing, much less requiring, Christians to kill unlawfully, and I am aware of no church or pastor advocating such action. Your response does not offer any, either.

John
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:38am PT
So are you arguing that God's will is for all human societies to enact Sharia laws, so that homosexuals can be lawfully executed and good Christians won't need to get their hands dirty with "murder"?

And Madbolter, feel free to explain how Lev 20:13 is here taken out of context. But instead of explaining it to me, it would actually be more productive if you explained it to millions of Christians who believe homosexuality is an abomination, and thousands (at least) of which think it should be punished with death.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 19, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
And Madbolter, feel free to explain how Lev 20:13 is here taken out of context. But instead of explaining it to me, it would actually be more productive if you explained it to millions of Christians who believe homosexuality is an abomination, and thousands (at least) of which think it should be punished with death.

Ancient Israel was a theocracy, governed more or less directly by God. In a tiny, close-knit, and theocratic society such as this, a very literal (and interpreted by prophets) interpretation was in principle possible.

In a huge, multi-cultural, non-theocratic society (ranging from the Roman empire to our current US republic) the epistemic hole is DEEP! Early Christianity recognized that a global reach of its perspectives would mean a non-theocratic approach to morality, which is why the early church was quite systematic in not attempting social reforms (note Paul's letter to Philemon).

Yes, a subset of present Christians like to think that "spreading the Gospel" REALLY means remaking society into their (distorted) image. But this is a deep conflation of theocratic and democratic principles. What the Christian era was really supposed to usher in was the "priesthood of every believer," one major implication of which is a very direct accountability directly to God, not through kings or prophets. But this same individual responsibility implies that "people can go their own way" without "enforcement by the church."

Yes, Catholicism has a long and sordid history of trying to reinstantiate theocracy. An abhorrence for that perspective/approach was a major driving factor in the reformation. Sadly, too many Christians still think that the church is to have secular power, despite Christ's oft-repeated claim: "My kingdom is not of this world."

So, I'll agree that confusion abounds in Christendom. But that does not mean that many if not most Christians would NOT wish for a return to theocracy. I vehemently oppose those that do. And it is a theocratic perspective that drives all forms of religious persecution.
Jawon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
So just for fun, I think I'll interject a snide comment every now and then about the original intent of this thread being to REDUCE mass spewing about Christianity. And then duck as my voice gets drowned out by the grenades getting lobbed over the walls.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Aug 19, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
Well what did you think was going to happen? It is their moral imperative.
thebravecowboy

climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
Aug 19, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
Jawon, you spewed about wanting to reduce spew, amirite?
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Aug 19, 2014 - 01:48pm PT
persecution complex
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Aug 19, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 19, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
"Scripture is not the true source of the living God."

How could human words gathered together in a book ever be the source of the original source?

"you can take me down from that bloody cross now, I'm so done with that. Let's get on to healing this planet of it's willful ignorance."

All this back and forth will get us all nowhere, we have work to do.

Scripture is dead. Go with the living.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 19, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
an offer of a private conversation for those who want to know about Christianity gets hijacked ...

JEleazarian, what he actually offered was "to have a sincere 1:1 email conversation with a Christian on whatever topic is bugging you."

Are you saying that all Jawon as a Christian can talk about is Christianity? All other issues of spirituality and our shared human condition are off the table? You're an attorney, right? No offense intended, but Christianity is pretty boring, whereas spirituality and the human condition are not, IMHO.

If there is any hint of self-righteousness or know-it-allness in this post, I apologize in advance ..

If your worldview is true, we all return to dust. If my worldview is true, there is eternal implication.

There's the hint! What a magnificent worldview you have, with Christians as the only humans entitled to go to heaven. You sound like a good guy Jawon- apology accepted!

Sorry if a little nightcap is to blame for you creating more of exactly what you were trying stop. We're all humans I guess - live and learn ... You can delete the thread if it's honestly not what you want.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2014 - 10:32pm PT
Jesus went so far as to condemn calling another an idiot as being as wrong as murder. I am aware of no scripture allowing, much less requiring, Christians to kill unlawfully, and I am aware of no church or pastor advocating such action. Your response does not offer any, either.

John, how is it possible to unlawfully kill on the orders of God?

Even I, a skeptic, would find that to be non-controvertial.

After all, doesn't God get the last word?

And this has been the reasoning used for thousands of years.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 19, 2014 - 10:37pm PT
People have asked how Christians have affected culture adversely. here is an example documented by Atul Guwande about the development of general anesthesia.....which the Church opposed.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/07/29/slow-ideas

On October 16, 1846, at Massachusetts General Hospital, Morton administered his gas through an inhaler in the mouth of a young man undergoing the excision of a tumor in his jaw. The patient only muttered to himself in a semi-conscious state during the procedure. The following day, the gas left a woman, undergoing surgery to cut a large tumor from her upper arm, completely silent and motionless. When she woke, she said she had experienced nothing at all.

By February, anesthesia had been used in almost all the capitals of Europe, and by June in most regions of the world.

There were forces of resistance, to be sure. Some people criticized anesthesia as a “needless luxury”; clergymen deplored its use to reduce pain during childbirth as a frustration of the Almighty’s designs.

In those days, even a minor tooth extraction was excruciating. Without effective pain control, surgeons learned to work with slashing speed. Attendants pinned patients down as they screamed and thrashed, until they fainted from the agony. Nothing ever tried had made much difference.

Ah, the intervention by the servants of a loving God.......
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 19, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
WOW! Good post Madbolter1!

AND EVERYONE!

KenM, I'm sorry for anything any christian ever did bad to you. Especially those that helped to form your opinion. i really hope you learned something here. i know i did. If you haven't, read it again. There's a lot of Truth in there.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 20, 2014 - 03:52pm PT
Blue,

I don't think you get my actual point.

Faith involves unquestioning and undivided loyalty and deference to one's deity, as one understands it.

it is the unquestioning giving that is the part that most find hard. Of course, that is exactly the part that cults have taken advantage of with respect to converts.

Thing is, that to those looking from the outside, it is hard to see the difference.

I've always particularly had trouble with the sects that say you can do WHATEVER you want, then go to confession and have it all erased.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 20, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
Who decides who's getting scripture 'right'?

Hmmmm.

Not sure that's the problem.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 20, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
I've always particularly had trouble with the sects that say you can do WHATEVER you want, then go to confession and have it all erased.

Me too!

But do you think that an atheist moral relativism/subjectivism is any better? If so, how???

And I do think you're painting with a very broad brush regarding what "faith" is. I know that my faith is nothing like what you are describing.

That's probably the case with lots of others as well. I, for example, know a number of theist philosophers besides me who would take vigorous exception to your broad brush strokes.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 20, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
Who decides who's getting scripture 'right'?

We can at least strive for an internally consistent interpretation. Sadly, in my experience, most Christians' interpretation does not even get over that low bar.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 20, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
Yeah, those fake Christians suck.

And non-Christians, of course.

Nevermind.

You're not gonna get it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 20, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
ken M
"Oh, and I really enjoyed the nice touch added by the Christian church members who picketed his funeral, and thanked God for his torture and death. "

i was robbed once by a gang of black guys when i was a kid. do you think i should call all black people crooks?

of course not. stop being an idiot.
Psilocyborg

climber
Aug 20, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
There is hate, and there is love.

I laugh to myself when I see the atheists here spewing forth hatred towards christians, like they are somehow above them. Because they are subscribing to hate. The same hate that Hitler subscribed to, Isis, the crusaders, american settlers, whites, blacks,christians, jews and muslims, rich, poor, gay, straight and on and on and on....

I think I see a pattern there. Can you rise above it? Or will you just wallow in it along with everyone else?

Yes people have twisted religious teachings of all types for their own benefit. Can you see through it? Can you find the truth? It is the easiest thing to see because it is so simple. You don't need to believe in any deity, all you need is love....love is all you need.



Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 20, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
I don't believe any atheists have accused Christians of being Hitler to date LOL. It's interesting that how often atheists seem to spew. I haven't observed that, but I'll carry a smock, just in case.

The oft repeated objection by supporters of civil rights - most notably the 14th Amendments equal protection clause, to the more stringent sects of Christianity theology stems from its inherent exclusivity. A "saved" versus "unsaved" world view enables followers to then exhibit other forms of bigotry against entire groups, women and the LGBT community most notably nowadays.

That opposing some Christians from persecuting others is, itself, a form of bigotry is, of course, nonsense and a commonly used tactic by groups that cannot otherwise provide a moral justification for their actions that jibe in even a remote sense with the principles embodied in the Bill of Rights.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 20, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
I laugh to myself...

Classic covert arrogance.
WBraun

climber
Aug 20, 2014 - 06:04pm PT
Scripture is dead. Go with the living.

You guys are all dead too.

You guys are all fixed on dead matter.

Just walking robotic corpses and consciousness in your lower chakras.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 20, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
Always a charmer!
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 20, 2014 - 06:11pm PT
But do you think that an atheist moral relativism/subjectivism is any better? If so, how???

For what it's worth, I think a great number (probably the majority, but I don't have any polling data to back that up) of modern day atheists would subscribe to a philosophy of moral realism, which is the opposite of subjectivism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_realism

Moral realism is I think the most logical form of ethics for anyone who holds a scientific materialist view of nature. The idea that without God there is only nihilism is a strawman if there ever was one.
jstan

climber
Aug 20, 2014 - 06:20pm PT
Jawon:
You obviously did not expect this. I think we can understand it under the hypothesis that theistic relations in this country, indeed in the world at large, are in a state that has not existed for hundreds of years. We might have guessed this from the fact the catholic church has had to cough up billions of dollars to settle child abuse charges. Muslim decapitations of journalists weigh in here also.

I think followers of religions need to rethink their position that people must be forced to surrender their own judgment and thinking to an authority, churches.

Churches no longer have clothes.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 20, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
Sounds complicated.

Try to leave the place better than when you found it.
Stay healthy.
Choice, not control.
Be mindful.
Laugh.

The 6 Actions:

Create
Appreciate
Serve
Connect
Accept
Explore
WBraun

climber
Aug 20, 2014 - 06:27pm PT
Everyone is forced to surrender .... everyone!!!

Your material body will be taken away, you will be kicked out of it.

The atheists and materialists will say this person is dead.

So where's your so called no surrender to authority?

The atheists must surrender to the inferior energy of God called material nature.

Material nature is authority and supreme to the atheists.

Everyone in the cosmic creation is forced to surrender to authority.

One only has minute independent freedom ......
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 20, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
Sounds kinky.

I often wonder how the Born Again movement would fare without God, Heaven, or Hell - and the act of striving to be Christ-like. No carrot, no stick, no salvation, no schadenfreude, no judgement, no end times bloodbath.

Just love.

I'd like to meet all two of them, frankly.

Wait...I think that's called Unitarianism.
Captain...or Skully

climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
Aug 20, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
Some atheists rage at "Christos" because those Bastards just won't let it go.
Just leave me be. I don't want your Fricken fairy tales. I will decide what I think when I have enough evidence. Faith is insufficient.
Have a nice Fricken day.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Aug 20, 2014 - 07:17pm PT
Some atheists rage at "Christos" because those Bastards just won't let it go.

those damn atheists are going to go to hell and they won't even know it they're so stupid


consider the reason for this thread:

the OP says he has an "alternative" to mass spewing about Christianity

and the alternative is.... starting another thread to profess what else?..Christianity


rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 20, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
Robotic corpses...! LMAO..
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 20, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
One of my sculptures is called "Robot Bone"

GUILTY AS CHARGED.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 20, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
Why would anyone have a problem with God's Law applying to all of us?

Christian Nation, after all.

Gay marriage ban, anyone?

Poor Christians. So persecuted.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 20, 2014 - 10:00pm PT


Faith involves unquestioning and undivided loyalty and deference to one's deity, as one understands it.

Ken, i hear what your saying. Try thinking of this way, IF the bible, and God's utterings about a war between good and evil in the universe are true. What would be the sweetest gift we could give back to the creator of the universe? To BE good? He tried that with the 10 commandments, and even with direct consultation we failed. So our good works are out! And what would our works be to the inventor of ALL this? Could we offer our smarts, our intelligence? PFFFT! Yea right! If our good deeds, and our super intelligence can't get us closer to God. Do you think ALL of mankinds good deeds, and ALL of our intelligence added up would cause God to say, "Yea their with Me!"? So what then do each and every one of us posses that's more important than all these things? i believe it's love, commitment, and faith.

Let me ask you a question, have you had enough trust in someone that you committed acts just from what they said to you. You have to have faith in that person's word. Anotherwords you would do what they said automatically beacause you felt they couldn't be wrong or would lie to you. That's having faith! And how'd you feel after you acted on their opinion and relized what they had said was in fact true? i bet you felt pretty good about that person, you might even have felt love for that person! You could give someone some education, teach them say, chemistry, or brain surgery, or how to meditate, etc. OR you could give someone a new car, or a million bucks, but what would any of that mean? Isn't giving someone your Word of honor more substantial? Atleast it ought to be! Now for the drum roll.. For someone to have Faith in your Word of honor, to act on it without hesitation, just because you said so. Isn't THAT the best gift they could offer unto you, and your name?


Pardon, i'll get to those differences shortly, must do chores.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 20, 2014 - 10:14pm PT
For what it's worth, I think a great number (probably the majority, but I don't have any polling data to back that up) of modern day atheists would subscribe to a philosophy of moral realism, which is the opposite of subjectivism.

Actually, the opposite of moral realism is moral anti-realism, which is not equivalent to subjectivism.

The opposite of subjectivism is not moral realism. It is objectivism, which is not equivalent to moral realism.

Moral realism is a metaphysical, rather than epistemological, position that essentially says that moral propositions refer to features of the universe that exist apart from this or that particular perception of what those features are. In other words, the referents (whether or not we could ever know anything about them) are real entities or features of reality. Nothing in moral realism is committed to the position that these real features or entities could actually be known by anybody.

That is different from objectivism, which is an epistemological position that essentially says that our knowledge of the truth conditions of moral propositions is derived from some sort of connection with real moral facts.

And example of, say, mathematical realism would be to say that there is some fact of the matter in the universe regarding, say, (the strong) Goldbach's Conjecture... regardless if it even in principle can be proved one way or the other. Notice that being a mathematical realist does not commit one to any particular claim about the truth conditions of Goldbach's conjecture... only that whatever they are, the truth conditions will be anchored in real entities that exist apart from perception.

Mathematical objectivism, by contrast, would go beyond mere realism and propose that the truth conditions of Goldbach's Conjecture will be tied to this or that particular features of reality... and that we would come to know the truth or falsity of Goldbach's Conjecture via this or that particular connection with those features.

If this seems like a purely academic distinction, I'll bring it to a point regarding your claim.

Most people in general are quite confused about realism/objectivism and anti-realism/subjectivism. There are very different commitments inherent in these positions, so speaking about them loosely only breeds more confusion.

If, as you say, most atheists are moral realists, that is actually a very weak position as regards what the moral facts actually are and what the truth conditions of moral propositions are. It is saying nothing more than: "Morality is grounded in actual features of the universe rather than in features of human beings qua perceivers." Most realist atheists would want to claim that moral facts inhere in brain states, emerging through the process of brain evolution.

Now, YOU contrast that position with moral subjectivism, and it would indeed be interesting if most atheists were actual objectivists. However, in point of fact, you are correct in your first claim but not in the supposed implication you draw from it. Most atheists are NOT true objectivists! And the realist claim is pretty uninteresting apart from a genuine moral objectivism. From an evolutionary theory perspective, the realist claim is basically tautological.

You should read J.L. Mackie's seminal work: Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong. Here, Mackie does the best work ever done in clearly making the distinctions I summarize, and he comes down firmly as a subjectivist/realist. Some call him a moral skeptic, but he most certainly is not. He ties all moral values to human beings in a very realistic (not qua-perceivers way), but his subjectivism anchors the truth conditions of moral propositions in human perception. Furthermore, he argues vigorously that there is no plausible alternative!

My long experience in professional ethics leads me to believe that the vast majority of atheists are cut from Mackie's cloth. And there's the rub....

You seem to quite blithely assert moral realism, but: 1) that doesn't get you nearly as far as you seem to think; 2) the really interesting questions emerge when trying to defend actual moral objectivism. Mackie doesn't believe it can be done, and he argues compellingly for that case. Most atheists (all that I know or have read) that have actually thought this through are in Mackie's camp. So, you do NOT get objectivism from realism!

Even the best attempt to account for moral objectivism apart from Kant and divine command theory is utilitarianism. And, as many have noticed over the years, that is actually a very subjectivist theory! So, if you are an atheist, and you intend to be an objectivist, you are really left with only Kantian deontology to work with. And the vast majority of modern-day ethics is being done under some neo-Kantian rubric, even as Mackie is ever nipping at the heels of this work. Thus, all modern atheistic ethics is done in a closed subjunctive mode: "IF we could come up with a way to ground Kant's theory on some viable metaphysical theory, deontology would look like this...." And the vast majority of philosophers are NOT prepared to ground logic itself (what would be the best shot at a Kantian moral metaphysics) in mere brain evolution!

There are two great ironies to this state of affairs: 1) Kant was actually a closet divine command theorist, and his theory only works if it is grounded in a realism that is in turn metaphysically grounded in divine commands; 2) most ethicists despise Kant's theory and only continue to work with some "neo" version of it because there are NO good (non-divine-command-theory) alternatives.

So, to sum up, atheists have not yet produced an ethical theory that is truly objectivist and purely secular. The "realism" to which you blithely refer is basically a punt without a thoroughgoing objectivism, and that gets into some very, very thorny terrain for atheists!

These facts are why, in a lecture to the American Philosophical Association on the subject, past president Philip Quinn said (without noted dispute): "... theists have been getting the better of the arguments."
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 20, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
Holy sh#t, Richard - no wonder it took you guys a month to climb Wings of Steel!

It might explain why they make you go to church on Saturdays - it probably takes you til Sunday night to finish your damn prayers.

I believe i will have a beer. Is that objective realism?

PtL and PtPPete
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 20, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
ken M
"Oh, and I really enjoyed the nice touch added by the Christian church members who picketed his funeral, and thanked God for his torture and death. "

i was robbed once by a gang of black guys when i was a kid. do you think i should call all black people crooks?

of course not. stop being an idiot.

No, you shouldn't. But on the other hand, Blacks are not asking you to fall to your knees and worship their God. You are.

I think there are some very fine Christians. But not all, and to paint the "path of Christ" as THE WAY, the ONLY way, and we should listen because it is being said by Christians, and they are all just dandy, doncha know....

This doesn't wash with many.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 20, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
I believe in Dog.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 20, 2014 - 11:27pm PT
Holy sh#t, Richard - no wonder it took you guys a month to climb Wings of Steel!

Hey, dude... give us some credit, will ya?

It took way more than a month!
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 21, 2014 - 07:04am PT
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! I guffawed in my coffee. Hope all is well with you. Gonna come to the Valley this fall?
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 21, 2014 - 08:11am PT
Try thinking of this way….

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 08:47am PT
Reckon every 'atheist' is different by individual.

Born Agains, among other Christian sects, on the other hand, have openly and proudly joined forces to discriminate against homosexuals and attack women's rights. That makes them enemies of equality under the law, self determination, and the separation of church and state, three of the most fundamental tenets of American civil rights.

All individuals choose their morals. Regardless of where you choose to believe morality hails from, your free will affords you the right to choose your actions. Actions are the true measure of one's morals. One's belief in their source is an internal decision - relevant only to you. In this way there is no difference between Christians, atheists, or anyone else.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 09:42am PT
Gonna come to the Valley this fall?

That's the plan. Hope to see you!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 09:47am PT
All individuals choose their morals. Regardless of where you choose to believe morality hails from, your free will affords you the right to choose your actions. Actions are the true measure of one's morals. One's belief in their source is an internal decision - relevant only to you. In this way there is no difference between Christians, atheists, or anyone else.

There is a huge difference between choosing your actions and choosing your morals. People are motivated to act for all sorts of different reasons than their "chosen" morality!

And, even if your statements were exactly correct in every respect, they are quite uninteresting because THE question is not whether or not people choose to live moral lives. THE question is whether or not moral objectivism is true. And your statements don't touch that question.

And, even if people "choose their morals," the only interesting question about that fact is if their choice can be incorrect. Were Hitler's choices of morals incorrect?

You talk like a relativist. If you are, you are not just on ethical thin ice; you've fallen into the ice water.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 21, 2014 - 09:57am PT
All individuals choose their morals

Just as studies have shown that the vast majority of people embrace similar,
if not the same, political views as their parents I strongly suspect the
same holds true for their moral views. Free will? I see increasingly
fewer people exhibiting anything close to free will unless, of course, they
really want to act stoopid.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 10:06am PT
What goes on inside your head is neither visible nor relevant to anyone else. All the rest of the world can see is your actions - and you choose them. If you communicate your thoughts to others in any way - that constitutes an action.

Many Christians choose to become high centered on the source of others morals - after all, they are trained to judge others in such a manner by their theology, which legitimizes such thinking, but a moral act is a moral act, regardless of who commits it.

Thus, many Christians believe individuals are saved or damned by their beliefs, not actions. After all, forgiveness for anything is a central of Christianity, therefore actions really don't matter in the end. One can always repent - God is always there to mop up the mess in the end.

Put another way, many Christians believe that an unbeliever is damned regardless of the morality of their actions.

The fundamental flaw here, of course, is causality. The rest of the world can only experience one's actions, not the beliefs that drive them (unless they are communicated to others - which constitutes action), nor the perceived sources of those beliefs (ditto). Many Christians deny this reality because it de-legitimizes (appropriately) the most fundamental tenet of their faith - belief = salvation.

In the end, however, there is only action.

Such a disconnect among some Christians provides fertile ground for cognitive dissonance. "Ours is a religion of love" becomes consistent with "I actively work to pass laws for everyone, Christians and non-Christians alike, that disallow millions of Americans to marry the person they love".

Thus, Christianity is morally flawed in several important ways. It assigns responsibility for one's immoral actions (ex; bigotry) to an external source (God). It is inherently exclusive (Saved v Damned), and therefore legitimizes such bigotry. And it rewards belief (in God), not moral action (Ex: morally acting unbelievers are still damned).

There's really no saving Christianity in any moral sense until these fundamental flaws are reformed.

The aforementioned example of Hitler (chuckling over here) only illustrates the points above - like those Christians who have killed doctors and blown up clinics, his actions were immoral, regardless of his beliefs or psychological condition.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:10am PT
Such a disconnect among some Christians provides fertile ground for cognitive dissonance. "Ours is a religion of love" becomes consistent with "I actively work to pass laws for everyone, Christians and non-Christians alike, that disallow millions of Americans to marry the person they love".

Absolutely correct, particularly because you said "some Christians." The replacement of "educate" with "legislate" in mainstream Christianity has done more damage than can be calculated!

Thus, Christianity is morally flawed in several important ways. It assigns responsibility for one's immoral actions (ex; bigotry) to an external source (God).

Uhh... no! I have no idea how you derive that claim from any others you have made, much less substantiated.

Sure, there are morally irresponsible Christians, just as among any other demographic you care to shake a stick at. However, "Christianity" is not responsible for that fact. There is nothing inherent in Christianity itself to encourage or perpetrate bigotry or to assign personal responsibility for one's actions to God.

It is inherently exclusive (Saved v Damned), and therefore legitimizes such bigotry.

Uhh... again, no! You conflate a metaphysical claim with an epistemological one!

Yes, Christianity teaches that there is a metaphysical fact of the matter regarding one's ultimate "outcome." However, that does not imply or even suggest that any HUMAN is fit to judge what that state is for another human being! HUMANS live in a very deep epistemic hole! And that is why the fundamental principle is true, as summed up in the verse: Judge not that ye be not judged.

Again, there are Christians that don't realize how deep of a hole they really are in, so they ignore the plain teachings of Christianity and do JUDGE! But this is not "Christianity," as you say.

So, no, "Christianity" does not "legitimize bigotry!"

And it rewards belief (in God), not moral action (Ex: morally acting unbelievers are still damned).

I find it troubling whenever people paint with such large brush strokes as you, and thereby brush away "Christianity" with a few misplaced strokes. I don't know who told you what "Christianity" is, but, my friend, you have it entirely wrong!

I would have to literally preach you a sermon about grace to explain this, and nobody here would tolerate it. But I will sum up by saying that the Bible does not teach "cheap grace" (like a "believer" can do whatever crap they want and still call it "saved"), nor does it teach that morally-acting unbelievers are necessarily damned.

Again, I'll agree that some "Christians" are so deeply confused that they convey a completely wrong message. But that does not absolve YOU of the responsibility for sorting through the chaff before you make sweeping claims and then reject an entire world-view on such a basis. Critical thinking means taking MUCH more responsibility for how you process evidence than that!

There's really no saving Christianity in any moral sense until these fundamental flaws are reformed.

Well, again, you are committing the fallacy of composition. "Christianity" doesn't need saving. What needs saving is the subset of professed Christians who are profoundly confused and thereby muddying the waters with THEIR bigotry!

If you imagine that Christianity will EVER be "saved" in the sense you are talking about, I would say that you have crafted for yourself a very convenient excuse. As the famous parable says, "The wheat and the tares [weeds] grow up together until the harvest."

And HOW "reformed" would it need to be for you to be satisfied? Would you expect there to be not one single confused and over-zealous Christian? What proportion would count as "good enough"?

Rather than to take sweeping and inaccurate stabs at "Christianity" itself, and thereby conveniently "absolve" yourself of any responsibility to study what it actually says and means, why don't you instead recognize that Christianity is filled with PEOPLE, and people are really screwed up?

It is certainly my goal to "take shots" at mainstream Christianity on the same points you are raising. I agree that too many "Christians" are deeply confused and need to be reeducated! But I'm not using the confusion of a subset to bash on "Christianity" as it is in itself.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:18am PT
Pure obfuscation.

If you choose to subscribe to a theology that separates Saved from Damned based on whether people share your personal belief in God, you accept, embrace, promote, and approve of that form of judgement, regardless of how you choose to externalize it and thus absolve yourself.

Those of us who abhor such an Us v Them philosophy choose to reject theologies that promote them.

We're all responsible for our beliefs and the actions they inform, whether we acknowledge that responsibility or not.

My 'claims' are not sweeping. They are backed by copious data.

Gay marriage bans were passed in nearly every state and at the federal level, mostly during the 90s. Christians provided the lion;s share of the support for those campaigns. In the 2012 election, $40 Million (100% Christian donations) was used to fight marital equality in 4 states, including my own. A failed effort, fortunately.

Look, that data here is overwhelming and damning (LOL) here if you bother to look for it.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:30am PT
If you choose to subscribe to a theology that separates Saved from Damned based on whether people share your personal belief in God, you accept, embrace, promote, and approve of that form of judgement, regardless of how you choose to externalize it and thus absolve yourself.

Now you obfuscate on the idea of "judgment."

You yourself would agree that some actions are morally reprehensible, worthy of punishment, and so forth. So YOU also "judge". You yourself have an "us/them" mentality when it comes to a whole range of moral divisions.

For example, you would certainly hold to an us/them division regarding Nazis vs. us! You DO hold to an us/them division regarding "us" and "all those nasty Christians that so oppose gays and abortion."

In short, we ALL, yourself included, "judge" and separate into "us/them" divisions.

You don't like the division Christianity makes? Tough. It is what it is in that respect. That doesn't make Christianity "bad" or "wrong" or anything else like that. It only makes is rest on a division that you personally don't happen to like. Oh well. Big deal.

But don't even TRY to claim that Christianity is "bad" just because it divides and "judges." You yourself do the same thing, and you did it in the very post I'm quoting from.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Immoral acts warrant judgement by the State: your oft mentioned nazi (lulz!) genocide, for example.

Personal beliefs in a deity, or not, do not warrant judgement of any kind by any entity. That is a personal choice, nothing more.

Hence, my objection to Christian doctrine, which holds that such personal beliefs warrant eternal punishment.

This distinction isn't clear to you yet?

I do claim, correctly, that the human misery Christianity levies on homosexual Christians and non-Christians alike by preventing them from forming loving families is immoral and reprehensible on its face. One only need to mentally turn the tables - if 90% of the population were homosexual, and heterosexual marriage was banned, to understand exactly why this is so.

As far as your 'tough' comment - well, I don't have to accept Christianity's inherently immoral acts, and i don't. I actively oppose them with my efforts, affiliations, and donations - with a great deal of recent success with regards to marriage bans, I'm happy to say, both in my home state, at the federal level, and in other states.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:36am PT
Uhh... no! I have no idea how you derive that claim from any others you have made, much less substantiated.

Sure, there are morally irresponsible Christians, just as among any other demographic you care to shake a stick at. However, "Christianity" is not responsible for that fact. There is nothing inherent in Christianity itself to encourage or perpetrate bigotry or to assign personal responsibility for one's actions to God.

"God told me to do it"

How do you know?

"God speaks directly to me, every day"

This is not nutters, this is what mainstream believers say.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:41am PT
Hence, my objection to Christian doctrine, which holds that such personal beliefs warrant eternal punishment.

Hmm... weren't you the guy that was just arguing that personal beliefs come out in actions, which is how we can know what people believe?

Maybe I was wrong, and I'm confusing you with W.K. Clifford. lol

Anyway, again you are simply and flat-out wrong about what Christianity teaches. It does NOT teach that you are saved or lost on the basis of "personal beliefs," UNLESS what you mean by that is that you are saved or lost based upon the ACTIONS that spring out of your beliefs.

Read the entire book of James (it's not that long) before you spew with such nonsense!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:47am PT
"God told me to do it"

That should only be a problem for YOU if "God" is telling them to do something immoral. THEN such people would be "nutters," such as the guy who shot up a McDonalds because his dog told him to do it.

Christians that do immoral things, regardless of their perceptions, are wrong, just as is anybody else doing immoral things.

I agree that attempting to absolve oneself of bad behavior by claiming "God told me to do it" is outlandish.

However, don't single out "mainstream Christians" for special condemnation in that regard. PEOPLE find endless excuses and justifications for their bad behaviors... I'm sure yourself included.

You don't like the "God talks to me" idea, but that's only because you have already decided that there is not God that could do the talking. However, clearly it is NOT "nutty" to believe in God, as that would make virtually all of humankind through history "nutty," and the "nuttiness" would include many highly-educated people in all academic disciplines even today.

It's pretty ironic that you would sweepingly label huge swaths of human beings "nutty" on the mere basis that you disagree with what they themselves perceive! Talk about an us/them mentality!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:50am PT
The Born Again's God is immoral for the aforementioned reasons, which is why I choose to believe he's nothing more than a human invention.

That belief in myth is nutty is another question. That was never my argument. Clearly, we have evolved with the propensity for belief in myth, considering the popularity of same - our brains are wired for it by evolution, so no mental illness is required for such belief. There are some excellent evolutionary theories to explain the survival benefits of this proclivity.

I can say that belief in God would be too nutty for me to contemplate seriously at this point in my life. I did believe in God as a child, but once I began to truly think for myself, that went by the wayside pretty quickly.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:55am PT
"God speaks directly to me, every day"

Stupid atheists and Americans.

God speaks every day to ALL living entities continually without stop.

Stupid atheists never have any clue WTF they're silly mental speculations are giving themselves.

God tells the atheist all day long he doesn't exist because the atheist is too stupid to understand and wants to forget God.

You want to deny God? Then he'll give you the intelligence to forget him and deny he even exists.

Just like stupid people who don't understand some one and then hate him.

That someone will avoid you but still they're always still there just as the sun always shines whether day or night on earth.

Not even a leaf can move without God moving it first .......
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:59am PT
The Born Again's God is immoral for the aforementioned reasons

None of which you've actually established.

You've stated mere opinions, and you've acted like they reflect objective facts. But they do not.

You're welcome to your opinion. You're even welcome to state it as if it reflects fact.

I'm welcome to simply point out that you haven't substantiated your opinions yet. And you do paint with very, very broad strokes regarding "beliefs" and "theology" that you have not actually studied.

HAVE you read the book of James? Let's see what you think of your "personal beliefs theology" opinion after reading that.

Can't be bothered?

Oh, then you're not entitled to spew without having it called for what it is.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
Between all the nazis and the spewing, things are getting pretty messy in here.

If you have specific corrections to my statements with regards to Christian doctrine (please quote them for accuracy), I'd love to here them.

So far...not much in that category.

Not much that actually countered what I stated, that is. Plenty of Hitler references, though, so there's that. Lots of conflation of beliefs with actions and other illogical responses, it seems. Seasoned with swastikas, as you do.

I have a clear view of the basics of the Christian doctrine that seeks to discriminate against homosexuals and unbelievers. It is, at its fundamental level, pretty simple, after all.

It would be cool to address Christian opposition to marital equality directly. So far - all dodge, all the time there. Go ahead, sell it to me.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
If you have specific corrections to my statements with regards to Christian doctrine (please quote them for accuracy), I'd love to here them.

So far...not much in that category.

Hmmm... let's see....

* Christianity is a bigoted theology because it has an us/them basis.

Check. Incorrect and shown to be so.

* Christianity is a theology that assigns personal responsibility for individual action to God.

Check. Incorrect and shown to be so.

* Christianity is a theology that condemns or "saves" people entirely on the basis of their personal beliefs.

Check. Incorrect and shown to be so.

Need I go on? I'm happy to! You have spouted off with all sorts of garbage about "Christianity" that I've shown is incorrect.

Hey, read the book of James yet???

Not much that actually countered what I stated, that is. Plenty of Hitler references, though, so there's that.

Ohh... see above.

"Plenty of Hitler references"? Like, let me see... two. And both carefully used to show how ridiculous relativistic morality really is.

What? We're not allowed to use the most perfect example of what relativism really is? Sorry, but I'm not so constrained. Moral relativism is an utterly bankrupt currency and should be shown as such.

I have a clear view of the basics of the Christian doctrine that seeks to discriminate against homosexuals and unbelievers.

Oh, you have a "clear view" in your own mind. Sadly, you continue to conflate the practices of a subset of "Christians" with "Christian doctrine."

As long as you continue to do that, your thinking is NOT clear, no matter how it might seem to you. Christian doctrine does NOT "discriminate" against homosexuals and unbelievers.

It is, at its fundamental level, pretty simple, after all.

I agree. Sadly, however, you have oversimplified the issues via conflation. "Christianity" is NOT "Christians." And what it really teaches is NOT what some subset of "believers" happen to believe. When you can distinguish between the two, you will immediately stop painting with such broad strokes.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 12:22pm PT
With zero countering statements, you've shown nothing here.

Nothing about the salient issue: marital equality.

Total, and unfortunately typical, dodge.

I've never had a Christian confront the marital issue - other than to say 'blame God'.

I'm not talking about Unitarians, here. I'm talking about Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin.

You can talk about moral relativism or absolutism all you want, but in the end, you choose your beliefs, whatever 'ism' you label them with.


It's clear this isn't gonna happen, so never mind.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
Stupid idiot.

You want to be homo then be homo.

You waste your time worried what some rubber stamp so called Christians says.

Go be homo fool.

Instead you waste your time studying homo.

No wonder you're an idiot .......
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 21, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
You can talk about moral relativism or absolutism all you want, but in the end, you choose your beliefs, whatever 'ism' you label them with

Absolutely true, which is why this discussion leads nowhere. Christianity has at its foundation the accounts of persons purporting to be eyewitnesses. Most criticisms of Christianity on this thread end up being criticisms of Christians. This proves nothing, since basic Christian doctrine says that all humanity sins and falls short of the glory of God.

Of course, if those who choose to disbelieve (as opposed to those who never heard) discover that they disbelieve in error, they have no cause for complaint if God chooses to give them what they themselves chose -- i.e. separation from God. Christians don't cause this to come about, yet that seems to be inherent in Tvash's position, since he condemns Christians for believing what God has revealed about Himself.

If I misunderstand, please correct me.

Thanks.

John
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 12:58pm PT
It's hardly a rubber stamp or about "being a homo"

Marriage affords over a thousand rights - child custody, inheritance, hospital visitation rights, property ownership, tax liability, and on and on.

Ask Edie Windsor, who's partner of over 30 years and wife of 2 years died, leaving Edie with an inheritance tax bill fo $360,000 no heterosexual would have to pay. (She won in the supreme court).

Or Major Margaret Witt - a decorated combat nurse who's long military career ended abruptly when the Air Force found out she was gay (she won in court, and DODT ended shortly there after).

Or Janice Langbehn, who was not allowed to visit her dying partner when she suffered an aneurysm while the couple and their 3 children were on vacation in Florida, a state that didn't recognize their out-of-state same sex marriage. Langbehn's partner died in that hospital without the comfort of her beloved. Florida still doesn't offer marital equality, although 3 court rulings indicate that may change sooner than later.

Or my friend Don and his husband, who can now enjoy a rich, joyful family life with their three adopted kids here in Washington because our voters successfully beat back a Christian funded effort to ban homosexual marriage here in 2012.

Yeah, this stuff matters. It matters to all of us, whether we acknowledge that or not.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 21, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
If you choose to subscribe to a theology that separates Saved from Damned based on whether people share your personal belief in God, you accept, embrace, promote, and approve of that form of judgement, regardless of how you choose to externalize it and thus absolve yourself.

See how sensible you can be. ;)
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
I'm not talking about Unitarians, here. I'm talking about Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin.

No, actually that is not what you are talking about AT ALL!

What you are really talking about is that "Christians" trying to legislate against gay marriage piss you off. "It's really that simple," as you said above.

But THAT is a totally different issue than all your broad brush CLAIMS (that I have adequately answered).

Look, any particular Christian might or might not believe that homosexuality is a sin; there are MANY that do not believe it is!

But that belief is nothing more until a person tries to IMPOSE that belief on society via legislation.

But THAT sort of action has nothing whatsoever to do with "Christianity!"

THAT has to do with the fact that many PEOPLE, some Christians included, have committed themselves to a "moral" society, and that looks like many different things to many different people.

SOME people want to stop gay marriage. I'm not one of them, and I'm a Christian!

SOME people want to greatly reduce or even ban private gun ownership, certainly ban the carrying of guns by private citizens. I'm not one of them, and I'm a Christian.

SOME people want to make abortion illegal. I'm not one of them, and I'm a Christian.

SOME people want to increase the national minimum wage. I'm not one of them, and I'm a Christian.

How much do you want? How much do you NEED to get the point???

You paint with the broadest strokes "Christians," and you lump "Christianity" into your jumbled, clumpy mud-pie. You don't know what "Christianity" actually teaches, and you fixate on the behaviors of a SUBSET of "Christians" to justify your sweeping statements.

The same person who believes that homosexuality is a sin SHOULD recognize in Christ himself the same person who said, "Neither do I condemn you...."

BELIEVING that homosexuality is a sin does NOT justify condemnation, legislation, discrimination, or bigotry!

Stop conflating!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
Put in glowing terms, John, but the reality is that you've omitted a few things - separation from God means eternal torture, no? For not believing in a God for which there is zero - zero - verifiable evidence. Kind of cruel and frankly psychopathic, don't you think?

Eternal damnation for the horrible sin of using our gift of reason?

The divide between the saved and damned, far from being 'absolute' - is actually quite malleable, considering how many versions of it exist between denominations. Born Agains believe one is only saved by being born again - which counts many Catholics and other Christians (not considered 'Christian' by Born Agains, of course) out, for example. Every denomination believes they've 'got it right' - yet they all continue to disagree as to what gets you into Heaven and what doesn't. For Born Agains it's one stop shopping - get saved and you're good to go. Murder someone? Just ask Jesus to forgive you. BAM. Back to Heaven with youz! Catholics are divided here - piling up grace, good works - getting into Heaven can be paid for with a variety of currencies, it seems.

This is how "God reveals himself?"

I'm confused.

Unless Christianity is a human invention - then this mess makes perfect sense.

So, an outsider (formerly a Catholic) takes a look at this mess and surmises it's all really a human construct.

Wow. Such a terrible sin, eh?

Now if an Atheist cures cancer, adopts 10 kids, and never murders anyone - to Hell with him!

How can one take such a doctrine seriously? There appears to be zero moral consistency in it, and even less justice.



BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 21, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
Fantastic Job Madbolter! Ur an Inspiration!!

God Bless You!

Tvash you should thank MB1 for setting straight all ur misconceptions!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 01:40pm PT
separation from God means eternal torture, no?

Correct: no!

Now I see your problem: "formally Catholic."

Catholocism is NOT a Biblical religion; it is an amalgamation of "Christianity" with paganism and neoplatonism.

The notion of eternally-burning hellfire is based upon misinterpretations of a couple of texts that are not even about that subject, and there are countless texts that clearly specify that this doctrine is not correct. No matter; most Christians believe it... because their roots remain back in Catholocism.

As you rightly note, such a doctrine flies in the face of reason and our (ironically, God-given) intuitions about justice. Also ironically, it is not a Biblically-grounded doctrine.

Oh, Locker... no, I'm no Republican. lol
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 21, 2014 - 01:51pm PT
I like this guy.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
"As you rightly note, such a doctrine flies in the face of reason and our (ironically, God-given) intuitions about justice. Also ironically, it is not a Biblically-grounded doctrine."

LOL. I didn't say Catholic doctrine flies in the face of reason - I said the variety of Christian doctrine means the idea of an absolutist theology (EI - the 'correct version') flies in the face of reason. In other words, your belief that you've got it right and others have it wrong.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
"SOME people want to stop gay marriage. I'm not one of them, and I'm a Christian!"

First of all, take yourself out of the equation. This discussion isn't about your beliefs - its about Christian beliefs. As you yourself stated, many Christians do actively engage in discrimination against homosexuals. That ACTION is primarily what I object to. I've already observed on several occasions that not all Christians do this - Unitarians, for example.

The Born Again movement, about a third of the American populace, certainly believes in hell, far more than many Catholics, actually (who tend to cherry pick beliefs on an individual basis). After all, that's what Born Agains are 'saved' from.

I should be acknowledged, however, that belief informs action, no? A belief that homosexuality is a sin drives many Christians to discriminate against homosexuals. While my primary objection is the action, I believe the sin thing is morally and technically wrong.

Let's flesh this out in your particularly case though. For starters, I never claimed to know what you as an individual, believe.

Would you vote FOR marital equality?
Do you believe homosexuality is a sin?
If yes to both, how do you reconcile the two?

This aren't 'gotcha' questions. I'm not stupid. If you don't actively oppose marital equality as a Christian, I very happy with that position. After all, you could be a change agent for Christian reform on that issue rather than a political foe me and my allies have to battle against. I'm not "anti-Christian", although the belief system doesn't make sense to me. I'm anti-bigotry, but most particularly, anti-bigoted action.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 21, 2014 - 02:32pm PT
Put in glowing terms, John, but the reality is that you've omitted a few things - separation from God means eternal torture, no? For not believing in a God for which there is zero - zero - verifiable evidence. Kind of cruel and frankly psychopathic, don't you think?

No, I don't. We have at least the following verifiable evidence:

1. New Testament Scripture is among the most clearly attested and verifiable as to its original contents of antiquity, with the exception of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which themselves verify that Isaiah was written prior to the birth of Jesus Christ. We have documents and fragments dating back many hundreds of years earlier than other classical texts (e.g. the Iliad and Odyssey, the writings of Julius Caesar, Plutarch, Heroditus, Plato, Aristotle, etc. etc.) The evidence supporting the accuracy of the Old Testament text is, if anything, even stronger. We therefore have strong evidence that Scripture was accurately recorded;

2. The authors of the New Testament include several who purport to be eyewitnesses. All of those eyewitnesses were persecured for their refusal to recant what they said, and most were killed as a result. Many secular texts are in accord, including letters to Domitian, for example, describing how Christians were killed only if they refused to recant. Using native reasoning (God-given or otherwise), leads to the conclusion that those who wrote the New Testament and who purported to be eyewitnesses, particularly of the Resurrection of Jesus, believed what they said; and

3. Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire -- and elsewhere -- through martyrdom of Christians, rather than through conquest.

That much you can verify, if you choose.


Eternal damnation for the horrible sin of using our gift of reason?

Eternal damnation (i.e. death) for failing to accept God's gift of salvation from it.


The divide between the saved and damned, far from being 'absolute' - is actually quite malleable, considering how many versions of it exist between denominations. . . . getting into Heaven can be paid for with a variety of currencies, it seems.

This is how "God reveals himself?"

I'm confused.

The confusion arises only from choosing to disbelieve Scripture. If I say I climbed the Nose, it's on El Cap, it starts at the toe, goes past Boot Flake (ignoring the Jardine Traverse) and the Great Roof, and has a long bolt ladder for the last pitch, am I wrong because someone else says, "No. The Nose is on Half Dome, starts below Crescent Crack and goes to the Visor?" God revealed His essential details in His Word. If others want to say it's wrong or incomplete, that doesn't make His revealed Word wrong simply because some disagree.


So, an outsider (formerly a Catholic) takes a look at this mess and surmises it's all really a human construct.

Wow. Such a terrible sin, eh?

Now if an Atheist cures cancer, adopts 10 kids, and never murders anyone - to Hell with him!

How can one take such a doctrine seriously? There appears to be zero moral consistency in it, and even less justice.

True, if you get to decide moral consistency and justice. Again, using Scripture for Christian doctrine, God said all sin and fall short of the glory of God, but God's free gift is salvation for those who believe in Jesus. Thus, under God's standard, we're all deserving of death.

You would prefer a system that differentiates man's imperfect attempts at moral conduct (as determined by humanity). Too bad. If you want a gift, you can't complain that the giver was less generous than you wished. The definition of a gift requires that you have no entitlement to it.

I need to stop spewing and get back to work. I do appreciate discussing this (and every other topic we've discussed) with you, not to mention your excellent trip reports, but my confidence in heaven does not go so far as to require me to try to hasten my trip there by avoiding my gainful employment, thereby promoting starvation.

John
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
In other words, your belief that you've got it right and others have it wrong.

But you yourself have that same perspective. No?

You've been posting pretty vociferously here to the effect that your opinions are the correct account of "Christianity," and you derive all sorts of sweeping claims from that perspective. What makes your confidence that YOU "have it right and others have it wrong" any different?

Ohhh... because you are more "tolerant"? LOL

First of all, take yourself out of the equation. This discussion isn't about your beliefs - its about Christian beliefs.

You just can't GET what you are doing, can you?

See next....

As you yourself stated, many Christians do actively engage in discrimination against homosexuals.

Yup, and THAT does not entitle you to make a SINGLE sweeping statement about "Christians." It's the most basic quantificational error that can be made: "some" or "many" does not entitle you to generalizations.


That ACTION is primarily what I object to. I've already observed on several occasions that not all Christians do this - Unitarians, for example.

Okay, then stop talking generally. Quit using phrases like "Christians believe..." and "Christianity is...."

Even as a "loose generalization" with acknowledged exceptions, YOUR statements are so sweeping and inaccurate that they are simply incorrect.

The Born Again movement, about a third of the American populace, certainly believes in hell, far more than many Catholics, actually (who tend to cherry pick beliefs on an individual basis). After all, that's what Born Agains are 'saved' from.

So what.

I should be acknowledged, however, that belief informs action, no? A belief that homosexuality is a sin drives many Christians to discriminate against homosexuals. While my primary objection is the action, I believe the sin thing is morally and technically wrong.

You're entitled to believe whatever you want. So are they.

In a free republic, people are going to try to magnify their values. I share your idea that these entirely religiously-based values have no place being imposed on a free society.

So, let's stay focused on the "imposing" behaviors rather than individual beliefs or even entire belief systems!

Would you vote FOR marital equality?

I have, although I think that your question as posed neglects what I take to be FAR weightier nuances of the issue. As just one example, what right does the federal government have to be elevating or minimizing certain values, such as "marriage" in the first place???

Horrible thread drift could result from me even raising that question, so I don't want it "answered" or to start a debate about it. My POINT is just that the whole reason you have such an ax to grind about this IS the issue of "equality" that really inheres in much more subtle aspects of the feds' involvement in a host of things they never should be in the first place!

Do you believe homosexuality is a sin?

Yup, I do.

If yes to both, how do you reconcile the two?

It's not hard at all. I can have ALL sorts of value beliefs that I have exactly zero desire to impose on anybody else! I can call a particular activity "sinful" without judging any particular practitioner of it "lost."

Who am I to judge the heart? OMG... WHO am I to have the audacity to KNOW how God sees any particular individual, what perspectives they have, the causal chains of their life... on and on??? I can talk in general terms about behaviors that are clearly condemned by the Bible without ONCE resorting to condemning any particular person! God have mercy on MY soul!

And regarding "morality by legislation," that is a contradiction in terms. God cares NOTHING for a "morality" that emerges from force and fear of punishment! That is the most basic element of Christian doctrine! So, it is literally an abomination for "Christians" to attempt forced morality or to create theocracy out of a republic!

This aren't 'gotcha' questions. I'm not stupid.

As you see, I don't take them (or you) as such!

If you don't actively oppose marital equality as a Christian, I very happy with that position. After all, you could be a change agent for Christian reform on that issue rather than a political foe me and my allies have to battle against.

And such would be my hope. Seriously!

Just please don't paint "Christians" with such broad strokes. MANY of us are not frothy-mouthed "nutters" who seek the feeling of power that comes from "making the world right."

Educate, yes. Legislate, no!

Christ's kingdom is not of this world, and it is my goal to systematically remind fellow Christians of that FACT! So, you do indeed have an ally in me on that front.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
Antiquity, claims of being an eye witness, nor martyrdom indicate veracity. Antiquity, of course, says nothing there. Eye witness claims (made by anonymous persons decades after Christ's death) are dubious. Any defense attorney or prosecutor knows this too well. Finally, martyrdom indicates only the depth belief, not its veracity. Ask any suicide bomber.

The rapid growth of Christianity under Roman persecution also doesn't indicate veracity of belief - nor does the rapid growth of Mormonism today. The early Roman empire saw a huge influx of poor immigrants with almost no social services. Christianity provided that, so, for many, it's existence meant the difference between life and death. It's not hard to imagine, given our more recent civil rights movement, our Civil War, etc, that many were willing to die for that movement. Peer pressure can also produce this result. Ask a kamikaze pilot. All were volunteers. Virtually no Japanese pilots refused.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
The El Cap analogy doesn't fit. The Nose is a set route with a simple topo put up in recent times - it's very well documented back to the original teams who put it up. The word of God? Not so much. Which denomination gets it right? Any one you so choose.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
We all decide our own moral consistency, or lack thereof, individually by choosing, rejection, or manufacturing the beliefs that support them. This is a dynamic process that changes throughout our lives and varies widely depending on the circumstances. Morals have proven to be quite flexible during wartime, for example. I've cobbled together a moral code that is a hodgepodge of karma, the Eight Fold Path, the Golden Rule, the Boy Scout Motto, the Bill of Rights, other sources, and stuff I just made up. Am I a moral person? Ask people who know me. They'd provide the best answers.

Man is an imperfect creature - everything is imperfect. Perfection is a religious construct. It doesn't exist for me. I try to appreciate the world for what it is and make the best of it.

I can't want a gift that I deem doesn't exist. Given that I believe in a causal universe and man's evolved propensity for myth, I've determined that God and salvation are much more likely human constructs than reality. We project images of ourselves - into others, ventriloquist dummies, animals, you name it. That's a very human trait.

Even without the Big Carrot, though, I try to lead as moral a life as I can. This short life has more meaning - for myself, for those around me, that way. I could certainly spend my time trying to make things worse - but that seems well covered already.

Would I like to escape death and be always loved? Sure. Who wouldn't? The fundamental nature of the universe is indifferent to our individual desires, however. It's big. We're not.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
C. Edwin Koop, former Surgeon General, also believed homosexuality was a sin. That did not prevent him from separating his personal beliefs from the responsibilities of his position. He sent an AIDS pamphlet (widely criticized by members of his own faith) to every adult in America.

Very admirable.

If you vote in favor of marital equality - we are moral and political allies. I'll point out what I feel are the religious underpinnings of bigotry practiced by others because that is a topic that I feel requires discussion, but in the end, action is all I really care about.

As for me being "right" - that's a projection. I have what I view are considered opinions, but in the end, I muddle through, just like everyone else.

As for painting all Christians the same way - I'd drop that. That's not how I think - my critiques have been specific in nature. Forums are imperfect vehicles of communication, no? Brevity leads to generality and all that. Then there's projection. It's not worth discussing further, really. Obviously, I can differentiate.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
Regarding federal involvement in marriage, that's a necessity. Ask any person who has married a same sex partner in a country that allows that. Wanna bring your partner into the US as your spouse? Fuggetabboutit - unless such a marriage is recognized by the United States.

There are over 4 million federal employees. Want your same sex spouse to have benefits?

And how about those federal taxes? Filing married or single? What about inheritance taxes when your same sex spouse passes on?

You get the idea.

The devil is in the details.

The feds have been in the marriage business from day 1.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
Forums are imperfect vehicles of communication, no?

So true! Reminds me again and again of one of my favorite lines: "The biggest mistake in communication is believing that it's happening at all."

We all muddle through!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 03:45pm PT
The feds have been in the marriage business from day 1.

Yeah... just another thing I wish they weren't.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 04:04pm PT
The reason why I come across as a know-it-all to some people is because I'm so smart.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 21, 2014 - 04:25pm PT
"I am often asked what will replace organized religion. The answer, I believe, is nothing and everything. Nothing need replace its ludicrous and divisive doctrines—such as the idea that Jesus will return to earth and hurl unbelievers into a lake of fire, or that death in defense of Islam is the highest good. These are terrifying and debasing fictions."

Sam Harris,
Waking Up, Chapter 1
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
The idea that the loss of religion will leave some kind of moral hole through which society will plummet is a bit dated, given that the U.S. is one of the last religious holdouts (and number 1 in fundamentalism) in the 1st world.

Scandinavia, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, France, Holland - these failed states are half as religious as the U.S.

In contrast, the 3rd world is heavily religious for the most part.

Interesting correlation there.

WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
So .....

In your next life you'll reincarnate as a homo to understand it has nothing to do with your true self ......
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
I think I'm already a homo sapien.

You?
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2014 - 07:18pm PT
You think.

Thus your guessing.

You're always guessing.

You don't even know what you really are ......

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 08:21pm PT
I could always be wrong about that.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 21, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
obviously a lot of what people once believed is demonstrably incorrect... which has no point but to say that since no proof or disproof of God or any such thing is possible, in the end one is going with a belief. These beliefs have a lot of support from various sources, and lately, given the recent fallibility of human witness, the claim of first person testimony is viewed more skeptically than it once was. To presume that such weighty matters as one's eternal disposition, or the rightful origin of an ethical system, rests on the word of so-and-so, well, perhaps, but it is, for me, a hard pill to swallow.

Now of course, we all swallow different pills, and those other pills may not be any easier to swallow.

But given that the status of the existence of God is reduced to a matter of personal belief, one could also decide that there is no God. And that would also be a belief, and one no more or less demonstrable.

Now if for God one substitutes some universal ethic system, a definition of "good" and "bad" we are at the same place, that is, a belief that cannot be proven or disproven.

That is, we can construct an argument that accepts both possibilities and in that construction make that resulting explanation completely consistent with what we know.



So given that, assuming there is no such universal ethical system, or equivalently (in the context of this discussion) no God, one is left to ponder what our ethical system is based on. And for that one can look at the evolution of behaviors as a part of our heritage, at least. Certainly what we take to be an ethical system isn't recognized in other similarly successful species.

Take ants for instance. We have rough parity in terms of total bio-mass, which is a measure of success, you have to take the many species of ants, there is only one current species of humans. And we share another attribute with ants, we are social. Our societal constructs are very different (at least we perceive them to be) but the advantages bestowed by social behavior are probably at least a part of the reason for the success.

Now one can ask, do we perceive any ethical system in ants?

Probably not that we would generally recognize.

Would that mean that "ethics" is a particular social construction of humans? probably, but perhaps it could be spread out among mammals to varying extent...

It is hard to generalize our own concepts of "ethics" much beyond human situations in this case. One could ask the question then, why would we assume that we could universally generalize those systems? Some observations of great ape behavior, and even of other mammals, seem to reveal behaviors that we could associate with ethical behavior... but there is no agreed upon way to establish the existence of a general "ethical system" extent without the presence of humans.

In the end we'd conclude that those ethical systems are totally human based and convey no "deeper" authority than the one or two million years of the existence of our species... (or even expand it to one or 2 hundred million years of mammals, it's a short, recent period compared with the history of life on this planet, and a tiny fraction of the age of the universe). However, that heredity may be all that is needed.

I know there is a desire for some definition of absolutes. But swallowing this pill doesn't get us there. But would it be a bad thing? If this is the correct pill, we humans have come up with a great way to develop a ethical system, attribute it's origin to an unprovable entity, and have large number of people believing.

It would seem not such a stretch that we can change the story and achieve the same results.
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
in the end one is going with a belief.

No it isn't.

No sane person would bank on belief only.

There must be and there is Absolute proof.

The science for this is there just as the science for the material nature is there ......

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 21, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
There must be and there is Absolute proof.

then what is it?
WBraun

climber
Aug 21, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
That is your life's work to find that ......
go-B

climber
Cling to what is good!
Aug 21, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
Here's proof...

I and the Father Are One, Part 1
http://www.gty.org/resources/Sermons/43-54/I-and-the-Father-Are-One-Part-1
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 21, 2014 - 09:01pm PT
Universal ethics is not observed across various human societies. Take Papua New Guinea's system of revenge killings, for example. When a person there commits a revenge killing, they feel no remorse - just the opposite; They feel good. Even within our own society, ethical norms in gang culture differ sharply from 'law abiding' society. Mormons, polygamists, the Amish, a combat unit in Afghanistan - the variety of ethical systems within American culture is nearly limitless. And we're only 5% of the world's population.

That one group claims ultimate ethical legitimacy is an unsupportable notion. It assumes some absolute basis, but, given all such bases are based on belief, and beliefs vary widely, there is no way to keep subjectivity out of it. Is the Koran less legitimate than the Bible? It was written more recently. There is no question at all about the well documented life of its main prophet - unlike Christ, who remains a mysterious figure by comparison. Objectively, were I to choose the more 'legitimate' faith, it would probably be Islam. Religious absolutism is not a winning strategy. With regards to deistic religions, the Hindus do a much better job of inclusiveness and flexibility. Hindus avoid the inherent pitfalls of "my way or the highway". Were i to require deistic religion in my life, Christianity wouldn't even get an interview, but Hinduism? I might look into that.
Steve Rathbun

climber
Outer Lurkistan
Aug 21, 2014 - 09:03pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 21, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
It assumes some absolute basis, but, given all such bases are based on belief, and beliefs vary widely, there is no way to keep subjectivity out of it.

Seriously, and I mean this kindly. Really I do. But you are completely ignorant on this subject, so you would do far better to keep such babbling to yourself.

As you yourself said, in this forum sort of context, people will not tolerate lengthy posts. So, I'm not going to even try! All I will say is that you are "arguing" for subjectivism/relativism, but modern professional ethicists have abandoned subjectivism/relativism because it is simply a rationally unsustainable ethical perspective. Mackie was the last of the great subjectivists. Today, ethicists are objectivists.

You are spouting off what feels good to you, but you are doing it out of complete ignorance of the subject.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 21, 2014 - 10:15pm PT
Situational Ethics: God's Word Situational Ethics, though it may be well meaning, is wrong. It is best not to transgress God's Law under any circumstance, regardless of your motive. God knows best and instituted His Law for a purpose. He has not given permission to any man to transgress His Law. If you will suffer because of keeping His Law, rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for so the Prophets suffered before you, and great is your reward in Heaven. If you can save a loved one from suffering by breaking God's Law, do not. For you are taking away their opportunity to persevere and receive blessings from God. Furthermore, you are breaking God's Law, bringing His displeasure upon yourself. To break God's eternal Law for a temporal concern is to focus upon things of this world and to ignore eternity. - See more at: http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/situational-ethics.htm#sthash.oTpkK6Hr.dpuf

Sure. Totally objective and not a matter of belief
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 21, 2014 - 10:31pm PT
if you consider relationships to be governed largely by economic factors (that is, the acquisition of the stuff necessary to sustain and reproduce life)

then all these ethics can be reduced to the considerations of game theory and the calculation of the various Nash Equilibrium... which could be codified into an "ethic system"

probably the best bet at an "objective" ethical system, where that system simply describes the outcome of those economic considerations.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 21, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
Christians that do immoral things, regardless of their perceptions, are wrong, just as is anybody else doing immoral things.

I agree that attempting to absolve oneself of bad behavior by claiming "God told me to do it" is outlandish.

However, don't single out "mainstream Christians" for special condemnation in that regard. PEOPLE find endless excuses and justifications for their bad behaviors... I'm sure yourself included.


Ah, but I don't claim that it is alright to violate Commandments, because God told me there was an exception (murdering Abortion doctors)

If I do some immoral thing, I cannot go into the confessional, and just have it wiped off the slate for eternity. I have to live with it.



You don't like the "God talks to me" idea, but that's only because you have already decided that there is not God that could do the talking. However, clearly it is NOT "nutty" to believe in God, as that would make virtually all of humankind through history "nutty," and the "nuttiness" would include many highly-educated people in all academic disciplines even today.

It's pretty ironic that you would sweepingly label huge swaths of human beings "nutty" on the mere basis that you disagree with what they themselves perceive! Talk about an us/them mentality!

You completely misread my comment about "nutty", and reversed my meaning. I am saying that mainstream Christians are NOT nutters.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 21, 2014 - 11:14pm PT
Ok, time for some facts and figures from an expert:

Robert Putnam, Harvard Professor, who has studied the issue of religion in America at great length. I've heard him in person, and some of his information is quite surprising:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM4WMjHQN44

This 7 minutes will open some eyes.....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 08:31am PT
ignorant nazi babbler here.

i wouldn't spend my life with someone who believes homosexuality is a sin. why would i want to spend eternity with one? thats a gift i dont need.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 22, 2014 - 08:32am PT
So just for fun, I think I'll interject a snide comment every now and then about the original intent of this thread being to REDUCE mass spewing about Christianity. and duck as my voice gets drowned out by the grenades getting lobbed over the walls.

You're good, we're bad. Got it. Christian morality.

Looks like the Christians are winning the mass spewing about Christianity contest, at least in number of words.

I don't want to perpetuate the very thing I'm trying to avoid with this offer

Then why haven't you deleted the thread? Too much fun? It's getting harder to accept that even you believe what you said.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 08:41am PT
the fundamental basis of ethics (and faith, if present ) is deep evolutionary needs, not economics. economics os a symptom , not a root cause.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:10am PT
I can't, for the life of me, figure out why the phrasing "mass spewing" didn't calm things right the f*#k down.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:15am PT
"Situational Ethics: God's Word Situational Ethics, though it may be well meaning, is wrong. It is best not to transgress God's Law under any circumstance, regardless of your motive. God knows best and instituted His Law for a purpose. He has not given permission to any man to transgress His Law. If you will suffer because of keeping His Law, rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for so the Prophets suffered before you, and great is your reward in Heaven. If you can save a loved one from suffering by breaking God's Law, do not. For you are taking away their opportunity to persevere and receive blessings from God. Furthermore, you are breaking God's Law, bringing His displeasure upon yourself. To break God's eternal Law for a temporal concern is to focus upon things of this world and to ignore eternity. - See more at: http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/situational-ethics.htm#sthash.oTpkK6Hr.dpuf"

The Christian recipe for cruelty and masochism. Be an as#@&%e or no ice cream cone.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:19am PT
Even though I see this thread as a form of evangelism, it's been fascinating and civil.

Madbolter is quite the anomaly among Christians with his quite non-evangelical, non-political, and therefore (mostly) harmless belief. Tvash doing an excellent job pointing to the real consequences of fanaticism spilling into legislation and also highlighting all religion being blatant superstition. He's backed up by others, (Ken, Ed, Etc.). Then you have your believers throwing down scripture and saying "there you have it, fact" (!) And Werner, with his giant ego, stomping and telling everyone how stupid they are.

I have to say that I have witnessed the trauma that imposing religion on kids can cause. Indoctrination. Instilling terror for thinking normal thoughts, etc.
Also, the polarization of our politics and society at the hands of these divides is sickening.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:32am PT
and so...damned...unnecessary.

This could be a much happier country without all this self-inflicted, religiously inspired cruelty and grief.

The very idea that humans are inherently dirty, dirty (sinful) creatures - in need of God for salvation, is f*#ked up. It's a formula for unhappiness and discontent, starting from birth, no less.

Does a non-religious person look at their newborn and think "dirty, sinful creature, in need of salvation?"

No.

If a Christian's child rejects religion, a Christian is REQUIRED to look at their child that way. A lost soul. Sinful. Doomed to death or perdition, depending on the choice of cult. The child's going to feel that disapproval, make no mistake about that. I know plenty of people - plenty - who grew up with and were damaged by that kind of rejection from the very people closest to them. I'm not talking about getting booted out of the house, either. I'm talking about a subtle, palpable, day to day disapproval of who their child really is. The damage that does to a person's ability to trust and love in a healthy manner is incalculable.

It's all good in Christian families if everyone tows the line. The minute there's a 'black sheep' - and this could just be a healthy child that simply doesn't buy the bullshit - watch out! It's a formula for some of the shittiest, most destructive parenting America has to offer.

F*#k such cruelty and the religions that promote it. Family is everything. Love - between real live people, not some mythical psychopath, is everything.

And here's a data point, Christians. I was just instructing for out annual Mountaineer's Adventure Club (age 12-20) week out of climbing. 20 awesome, engaging, spirited kids. # of Christians? Zero. General attitude towards the Christian view that homosexuality is a sin? Disgust.

Welcome to the future.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:32am PT
Science Saved My Soul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:49am PT
Pa taught me, Choose your battles carefully. Yet I can't resist...

and so...damned...unnecessary... This could be a much happier country without all this self-inflicted, religiously inspired cruelty and grief.

Yet I'm sensing you don't feel the same way regarding Islam, that you're more in Ken's camp, or perhaps hddj's camp, regarding Islam.

For ref, Ken's apparent stance: Any criticism of Islam (after all, Islam's a religion of peace) or criticism of Muslims is out of bounds (after all, the conflict over there is not about religion but politics and poverty).
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:51am PT
Doing brain surgery with a framing hammer again, I see.

Save it for the stupid.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:52am PT
Elaborate. Seriously.

I want to understand you. Seriously.

If for no other reason nothing divides libs in America (and Europe as well, it seems) more than this issue. So it matters.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:53am PT
No sane person would bank on belief only.


so there's a sh#t-ton of batshit crazy people in this world.

Got it!
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:57am PT

why would i want to spend eternity with one?

Without procreation there wouldn't be much future. Being homosexual seems rebellious against evolution and the progress of the species? Or maybe it's evolution's wat of halting some gene pools?

Regardless, i think when the door to eternity is opened and our minds freed, all sexuality will become passe.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:59am PT
"Elaborate. Seriously.

I want to understand you. Seriously.

If for no other reason nothing divides libs more than this issue. So it matters."

It divides you, perhaps. It's a strawman in my world.

Violent as#@&%es suck. Totalitarianism sucks. Cruelty sucks.

Hardly controversial conclusions.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:04am PT
"Without procreation there wouldn't be much future. Being homosexual seems rebellious against evolution and the progress of the species? Or maybe it's evolution's wat of halting some gene pools?

Regardless, i think when the door to eternity is opened and our minds freed, all sexuality will become passe."

1) Given a severely over populated biome, a reduction in procreation actually works to aid survival, not hurt it. Population dynamics 101. Ask a lemming.

2) Homosexuals can and do have children, Bubble Boy.

3) Homosexuality is well documented in over 1500 species, so apparently, its' not only natural, but doesn't adversely affect the survival of those species. Unless you believe that fruit flies are endangered, that is.

4) No sex in Heaven? An eternity with Christian eunuchs and ice queens. I'll take death, thanks. Seriously, f*#k that.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:07am PT
Well, with all due respect, you're not being clear at all. We have a good sense of your stance re Christianity, what is it re Islam in general? and anything else.

For context, have you read the Koran? What's your take on its passages? and what's your take on how many Muslims around the world take it literally? and if this is detrimental and in what ways to progressive secular movements?

Here's your opportunity, speak to Islam.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:08am PT
And I don't care, even if you do.

I focus on the society I live in and can do something about.

At a whopping 1% of the population, Islam simply isn't a real problem here.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:10am PT
Well, that IS a reply.

.....

Okay, your adding to it. Anything more?

Okay, you're choosing your battles, too. I get that. Thanks for the reply.

.....

Still there's this...

"Doing brain surgery with a framing hammer again, I see.... Save it for the stupid."

So be it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:18am PT
3) Homosexuality is well documented in over 1500 species, so apparently, its' not only natural, but doesn't adversely affect the survival of those species. Unless you believe that fruit flies are endangered, that is.

Come on! The way we know it? I'd love to see ur proof here. You got vid of a couple fruit flys buttfukin and blowing each other just in order to feel some orgasmic pleasure, OR because they are in Love?
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:19am PT
Once again, an offer of a private conversation for those who want to know about Christianity gets hijacked into a public discussion of "religion," and a demonstration of ignorance

After creating 7 posts of mass spewing about Christianity in this thread, is this what we mean by moral relativism?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Grab some coconut oil and knock yourself out, Blue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

Or kick your well-worn denial-of-science gland into gear again.

How do fruit flies feel during same sex mating? Now there's a paper waiting to be written.

Go nuts.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:39am PT
A species doesn't care how many of its individual males mate. It only cares if enough offspring are created to ensure its survival, given its dynamic environment, and that there's enough genetic diversity in the process to ensure those offspring are viable.

In many animal groups, only one male gets to procreate.

Take a herd of gazelles, for example. The bachelor herd spars until there's a victor. He's the only male in the herd that gets to mate with the local female herd that year.

After about a month of continuous schtupping, the poor/lucky bastard is so worn out that he's easily taken by a lion or leopard.

Next....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:42am PT
Knowledge is power.

And fruit flies are evil.
Jawon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2014 - 10:45am PT
I'm intentionally staying out of this, as much as I want to jump in, believe me :) But in response to direct comments to me...

rbord:
So just for fun, I think I'll interject a snide comment every now and then about the original intent of this thread being to REDUCE mass spewing about Christianity. and duck as my voice gets drowned out by the grenades getting lobbed over the walls.

You're good, we're bad. Got it. Christian morality.

Looks like the Christians are winning the mass spewing about Christianity contest, at least in number of words.

Sorry if that sounded judgmental. Not my intent at all. My commentary has ONLY ever been about the spewing, not the content of people's arguments. And I never implied (I think) that the non-Christians are the spewers. I realize we holy-joes can get that way too.

Although I think there have been a few intelligent posts here, I stick to my original post that 1:1 discussions with some semblance of a personal relationship is when these discussions will become the give and take they need to be.

rbord:
I don't want to perpetuate the very thing I'm trying to avoid with this offer

Then why haven't you deleted the thread? Too much fun? It's getting harder to accept that even you believe what you said.

Honestly, I didn't know I could delete it. And I wouldn't anyway because in a sick way, that might be worse than letting this thread continue. I can only imagine the hate I might get from "censoring" this thread.

Again, I stand by my original post. It was a suggestion of a better PROCESS to discuss these topics, not a statement or judgment about particular religious/philosophical views.

All I'm saying is that whatever your worldview, continued seeking and wrestling is what we ALL need. And hopefully we will do this with real people, not avatars, understanding that every single one of us has a unique and complicated story that led us to where we are now.

In my particular case, I happen to be Christian. So I am just offering to share my story to those who are sincerely curious how one gets to this point. And in fact, if others who are atheists, agnostic, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever, want to share their stories too, I might take them up on it.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:48am PT
So far, only Christians have employed the oh-so-neutral term 'spew'.

Hmmm.

WWJD?
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 22, 2014 - 11:01am PT
What Would Jawon Do? :)
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 11:24am PT
It's been well documented that only atheists spew.

We're basically Rainbirds of Hate, except those few moments when we're loving our fellow man - Biblically.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 11:54am PT
Our largest hometown congregation of anti-gay, misogynist bigots flushes its Asshole in Chief:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/us/mark-driscoll-is-being-urged-to-leave-mars-hill-church.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=LargeMediaHeadlineSum&module=photo-spot-region®ion=photo-spot&WT.nav=photo-spot&_r=0
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 11:59am PT
Not really.

Atheists don't purport to know if there is a God or not (some do, of course, but that lies outside the term's definition).

They just know they don't believe in one.

Many agnostics are, in fact, atheists, but the latter is a bad word in our society, so they don't self apply it.

Do you know you don't believe in God, or are you still undecided? If so, you are an agnostic. If not - you're an atheist, whether you like it or not.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 22, 2014 - 12:01pm PT
Ed, interesting musing regarding ethics and economics. If there is a compass to ethics it would be based upon behaviors that at ideally increases the likelihood of survival and success of the group and the individual.

Evangelicalism is such an interesting phenomenon to me. It seems that so much of it is driven by a need to reinforce the viability of ones faith through convincing others that your are right to believe what you believe. If you have a deeply rooted faith in what you believe do you need anyone else to agree with you? I am mostly a science kind of guy, but do hold beliefs concerning philosophy and mysticism for which I have no proof and don't care much if anyone else believes the way I do (though validation is always fun). There seems to be an aspect of Evangelicalism that is driven by weak roots in ones faith.

There is such a huge disparity between the philosophy that Jesus outlines in the new testament (as much as we can trust the bible to be accurate being written after the fact and having gone through such a long game of telephone (err, so many transcriptions and translations)) and the actual practice of most people who say they are followers of Jesus and his teaching. What Jesus seems to propose is a philosophy with the fundamental tenets being love/compassion, charity, forgiveness, non-judgement, and service. Pretty sound and beneficial for everyone involved.

Does faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior add much to that? I don't think so. It seems that a huge percentage of people who claim Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour dramatically betray Jesus's tenets of right behaviour. But, that's just my opinion. Certainly one does not have to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior to act in accord with Jesus's calls to action or tenets of behavior. Believe anything you want; I can only judge the value of your religion, faith, or philosophy based on your behavior. Or, as someone once wisely said, "By their fruits ye shall know them."

The outcome of living in accord with the tenets for behaviour that Jesus (is presumed) to have proposed is a form of altruistic egoism. This philosophy was first proposed by the Canadian endocrinologist, Hans Selye, and basically says that doing good things for others ultimately benefits you emotionally and physically/economically as well as those those you've done good deeds for.

People claiming they have proof of their religious faith just sound silly. Proof comes from physical and tangible measures of phenomena. Nobody has proof for their beliefs or faith. Saying so doesn't make it so. But, then that is the beauty of faith and belief; we believe and have faith in spite of no actual proof.

Ultimately, we just make sh#t up when it comes to philosophy and religion. Some of it is useful and some of it is not.

Finding Jesus's words (just read the red print of the new testament sometime; an interesting exercise) concerning right action interesting and useful as a philosophy I took a few passages from the bible a few years back and asked if there is any science to back them up as to whether they have measurable positive value to the individual and society. It became a referenced paper 'The Science of Compassion Revisited.' http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-mind/the_science_of_compassion.pdf


StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 22, 2014 - 12:10pm PT
This has to be right up there for most ironic thread evah
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 12:13pm PT
Jesus-as-bigot and humiliator:

Matthew 15:21-28

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.

22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.


The Christian interpretation of this obvious bigotry is that God humiliates us all the time to 'test us'. Yeah. Right. How does that one work in a marriage or other supposedly loving relationships, I wonder?

Humiliation can play no role in any truly loving relationship. It can only degrade it. Humiliation as a "test of love" is the kind of game sociopaths play.

That Christ was all Love They Neighbor is a re-write. Scripture indicates he was a small town preacher with all the prejudices and tribalism of his time and place. That Christianity has whitewashed Him into something bigger and better than he was isn't necessarily a bad thing, however. This whitewashing has produced a set of ethics which can make the world a better place if taken for what they are.

Biblical literalism short circuits this process, however. Hence, the anti-gay movement, et al. Love thy neighbor as thyself? You married? Good. Afford that right to everyone.

I'm not really sure "love thy neighbor as thyself" is all that healthy a recommendation. What if you hate yourself? "Love thy neighbor" seems better. That's not scripture, though.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 22, 2014 - 01:07pm PT
The Christian interpretation of this obvious bigotry is that God humiliates us all the time to 'test us'. Yeah. Right.
You have issues. Really.

Do you hate mommy and daddy too since they told you what to do?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
Humiliation is one of your parenting tools? How about your wife? Do you humiliate her to get her to do what you want?

Let us know how humiliation is working for you and those around you.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
I'd wager we're not alone in our opinions with regards to the justification for and ethics of humiliation.

The problem obviously lies in my misinterpretation of scripture, which is, after all, the error-free Word of God.

I would also note that Jesus failed to convince his own home town of his divinity.

That must have been humiliating, however predictable.

Jesus was small time. Paul inflated him into a Superstar.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 22, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
The Christian interpretation of this obvious bigotry is that God humiliates us all the time to 'test us'. Yeah. Right.

Just when I thought I was outty... more spew!

Oh, right... bad word, I guess.

But, accurate, so I'll very intentionally use it.

Again, you would do FAR better to give up claiming what "Christians" think, or, in this case, how this verse "is interpreted." YOUR version is NOT what most Christians think, and I have not heard one single Christian interpret the verse as you say. Not one.

So, yes, yet more misguided spew.

Look, have all the personal opinions and justifications you want. But, really, you should give up spewing about "Christians," because you clearly do not know what you are talking about.

For a guy as vociferous as you are on this thread, your ignorance is EPIC!

And I'll call spew what it is any day. ;)
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
I read that interpretation off of a Christian web site.

You'd have more credibility if you were to provide your own interpretation...if you, in fact, have one to share, rather than just defaulting to the dick thing.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 05:20pm PT
Others can know what they do and do not believe, even if you choose not to.

Anyway, the definition of 'atheist' is a button push away, although you are certainly free to make up your own dialect.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 05:25pm PT
Tiresome.

Just look it up already.

Yeah, none of us knows what happens after death.

Not exactly breaking news.

If you can't discern the distinction between certainty and belief...I'm sorry.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 05:28pm PT
I don't speak for anyone else. Talk to them about it.

Atheism has an agreed upon definition - the one I gave. That's kind of how language works. All my atheist friends - which is just about all my friends, subscribe to the very same definition I do. We don't claim to know what we cannot - but we do know what we believe.

Your argument is a common strawman, used to label atheism as a 'just another religion', but you'll probably have trouble finding an actual debate partner for it. Hitchins notwithstanding.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 05:33pm PT
So talk to them about your concerns, already. Probably varies by individual, I reckon.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 22, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
I'm with Locker. Claiming that there is a god is based on faith. Claiming that there is not a god is based on faith.

And, I'm with Locker in the 99.99% thing, too. The belief in an anthropomorphic god that listens to everyone's prayers and alters the laws of nature and cause and effect to satisfy all our individual wish lists is simply silly.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
No, it's based on lack of evidence.

**a·the·ist
ˈāTHēˌist/Submit
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.**

I don't claim that there is no God. That would assign that objective reality to others. I claim only that I do not believe in a God - that subjective viewpoint is limited to me and me alone. I don't claim that I believe that I do not know if there is a God or not, because I do not believe there is. Therefore I'm not an agnostic.

Given that one cannot know anything for certain, even the reality of one's own existence, any discussion of such an a priori condition has little meaning. It's always true - for everything. This a priori condition does not make all unbelievers agnostics. If you are 99.9% sure there is no God, rather than me being an agnostic, you are, in fact, an atheist. Agnosticism requires ambivalence. I'm not ambivalent, and neither are you two. It's about belief - not certainty, which, of course, is not possible for anything. It's a continuous spectrum, of course - how sure are you that you do not believe in a God? As with any spectrum, there is a grey area between agnosticism and atheism, so there's some subjectivity as to how you self identify. Mostly, people self identify as agnostic because they do not understand either definition, or because they simply want to get along. I'm nowhere near that grey area, however, and really, neither are you.

For example, I also do not believe there is a squirrel in my head. Now, there could be a squirrel in my head, but the probability in my view, based on lack of evidence, is low.

About equal to the probability, in my view, that there is a God.

I don't subscribe to the view that I cannot choose a belief based on evidence here, therefore I'm an atheist, not an agnostic. There is a difference.

Conversely, I do believe in evolution. There is a high probability, based on evidence, that evolution happens.

I might also be a coppertop in the Matrix, and evolution may just be a sub-routine. Back to the low evidence category...

Most people are confused by the objective/subjective distinction, but it's really not that hard.
WBraun

climber
Aug 22, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
Yes atheist is good if don't know and have no evidence.

Then you do no harm to others with stupid misleading nonsense in the name of religion.

The theists can ultimately be far more dangerous when not following correctly.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 22, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
Tvash, you appear to have faith that your lack of belief about a thing existing without evidence for your position makes it so. My position is that I have no proof for an absolute position on the question regardless of my feelings about it and am therefor agnostic.

I am 99.99% sure there is no Jehovah sitting on a throne in the clouds listening to my prayers and directly intervening on my behalf or a heaven where I get to hang out with my embodied loved ones. But, I am a good 90% sure there is a vitalist aspect to reality based upon my observation and experience; an intelligent, conscious at some level, and organizing phenomenon that is not accounted for in our mechanistic models for the explicate order we call reality. But, I don't claim it as the truth because I don't have proof.

You can readily prove there aren't squirrels in your head. You can't prove that our scientific models and measures account for all phenomena.
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 22, 2014 - 06:18pm PT
Some agnostics seem to believe in a strange limbo of "possible existence" where all things begin. Then the agnostic imagines herself plucking items out of this limbo and sorting them into two bins labeled "real" and "non-existent" based on the evidence. Some things, like God, they say there is no evidence for or against, and so God stays floating in the limbo of possible existence.

But this isn't how it actually works. There's no such thing as 'evidence against somethings existence'. At best, you can only have a total lack of evidence for it. So then, the "non-existent" bin stays completely empty (and one wonders what's the point of even having it there in the first place?). Although in practice, your average agnostic carelessly throws many items into the non-existant bin, such as witches and the "God of the Old Testement", without stopping to consider that these have no more evidence for or against them than the God of modernity: 'designer of the universe and it's laws of physics, whose steady hand guides all things', whom they have kindly left floating out there in limbo.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
"Tvash, you appear to have faith that your lack of belief about a thing existing without evidence for your position makes it so."

This all-too-common, erroneous supposition violates the basic rules of logic.

Lack of belief in something requires no positive evidence of any kind above and beyond a lack of evidence. That lack of evidence is all that is required to suspend belief.

Substitute FSM for squirrel in my head, or Great Big Fuzzy Kitty Way Up In the Sky - neither of which, like God, are testable hypotheses. A lack of belief in these entities is therefore well founded due to lack of evidence.

In contrast, there is much evidence to support the competing hypothesis that God is of human construction. The evolved propensity for projecting human consciousness into the universe. The plethora of various Gods throughout human existence - despite claims of exclusive authenticity for most of them. The evolutionary advantage of religion to bind societies together for survival. The disagreement, even within Christianity, as to the nature of God. The improbability, based on observation, of entities that operate without causality - outside the laws of physics. The apparent usefulness of religion to control societies, legitimize authority, concentrate wealth, and make war. The satisfying of basic evolved needs - a salve for the fear of death, the need to be loved, the need for community, the need for status (to be 'chosen' or 'saved') - supplied by religion, which after all, requires only an idea. All of these bear the characteristic imprint of human invention. This list is much longer than this, of course.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 22, 2014 - 06:39pm PT
Thrash, there is a difference between having a lack of belief that something is so and believing that something is not so. Your belief is that god in any iteration is not so.

I love science and the scientific method and am with you on much of what you're saying. Be careful about believing that scientific observations and models are reality. They are our best approximations at any given time. These are things that I use all the time in practice - biochemistry, neurology, physiology, etc.

Yes, based upon the research much of what people attribute to experiencing god is a neurological phenomenon that is internally generated.

The models and methods of science are elegant and beautiful, but don't become too enamored with them. They aren't actually reality, which we can't know absolutely and directly, and that leaves room for uncertainty. Because of that, I am an agnostic and not an atheist.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 06:58pm PT
It's no wonder that the Christian God is a lot like us. After all, He is made in our image. He is the embodiment of our aspirations for ourselves. All powerful. All knowing. Untouchable. Eternal. God is, in fact, what we are becoming.

We would not love an alien God. We need a familiar one, like us, for that. To ensure that, God even became one of us.

Would we love God as much if he were just the Holy Spirit - some amorphous presence? No. We love Jesus. The Good Man. The Perfect Man. The Man who will always love and protect you, even with his life. The gentle one we can envision in our minds. The one like us, only perfect.

If Christianity is to credited for inventing anything - given that most of it is recycled from previous myths - it is the creation of a God that Loves You - an invited departure from the wrathful God of the Jews, who wielded his power through fear.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 22, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
Yes and thanks, Malemute!
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 22, 2014 - 07:23pm PT

This thread so needs photos:

Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 22, 2014 - 08:06pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 22, 2014 - 08:08pm PT
rather than just defaulting to the dick thing.

LOL... good one!

Glass houses....
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 22, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
Most people are confused by the objective/subjective distinction, but it's really not that hard.

ROFL

Ohhhhh my, just wow!






















I've gotta say, the arrogance is withering, like I've seen nowhere else on the Taco, and that's saying something!

ROFL
TYeary

Social climber
State of decay
Aug 22, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
What's the difference between a cult and a religion?







































About a hundred years.
TY
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 22, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
I think I have a new fanboi
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 22, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
For ref, Ken's apparent stance: Any criticism of Islam (after all, Islam's a religion of peace) or criticism of Muslims is out of bounds (after all, the conflict over there is not about religion but politics and poverty).

Not true at all. I just don't support painting with a broad brush, and extrapolating the actions of some, to all members of a group. I don't support that for Christians, either.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Aug 22, 2014 - 10:59pm PT
Get up, stand up
Stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up
Don't give up the fight

You, preacher man don't tell me
Heaven is under the earth
You a duppy and you don't know
What life is really worth
It's not all that glitter is gold
And half the story has never been told
So now we see the light
We gonna stand up for your rights
Come on

Cause you know most people think
A great God will come from the skies
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high
But if you know what life is worth
Then you would look for yours on earth
And now you see the light
We gonna stand up for your rights

We're Sick and tired of the ism-skism game
Dyin' n' goin' to Heaven in a Jesus name
We know and we know and understand
Almighty Jah is a living man

You fool some people sometimes
But you can't fool all the people all the time
And now we see the light
We gonna stand up for our rights
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 22, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
Mark, I can read your words and think back to our conversation in front of that Italian restaurant in Oakdale. I can hear your voice. I had just met you and I admired your patience and acumen. We then proceeded to warp into the wee hours with a bunch of legends of our sport. I'll never forget your story to Bridwell. I think he was kind in his reaction, you made him a little self-conscious. I still appreciate your patience and acumen especially on this thread. Rock on, brother.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 22, 2014 - 11:20pm PT

If a Christian's child rejects religion, a Christian is REQUIRED to look at their child that way. A lost soul. Sinful. Doomed to death or perdition, depending on the choice of cult. The child's going to feel that disapproval, make no mistake about that. I know plenty of people - plenty - who grew up with and were damaged by that kind of rejection from the very people closest to them. I'm not talking about getting booted out of the house, either. I'm talking about a subtle, palpable, day to day disapproval of who their child really is. The damage that does to a person's ability to trust and love in a healthy manner is incalculable.

Hey man
Atleast you weren't brought up by crack addicts, or parents that were surgeons and never home, or professional athletes who are always on away games, or military parents, and the list goes on. I've heard the same blame put on these types.
jstan

climber
Aug 23, 2014 - 01:23am PT
"agnostic; a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God"...
L

This series of words suffers from the same defect as does
If you are an Atheist and you claim that you KNOW their is no God...

How would anyone "Know that nothing can be known"?

Wordsmithery.

That acts to deflect attention from our lack of evidence supporting the existence of gods. Any gods. After thousands of years of looking for a god and finding none, we have a good chance of safely conducting our lives under the assumption there is none. If no evidence has shown up in thousands of years, none will probably show up while any of us lives. If it does, we all will be free to deal with it rationally.

The idea of Hell had to be ginned up to deal with the overwhelming lack of evidence. Hell is a device whose only purpose seems to be that of confusing.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 23, 2014 - 04:44am PT
actually, i was brought up by military surgeons addicted to crack
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Aug 23, 2014 - 07:45am PT






























































































nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 23, 2014 - 07:55am PT
why I hear....

uh... Nothing.


and it's so beautiful. I think I will sing.'


Edit: wondering why a search of the word 'secular humanist' in this thread yields nothing.
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Aug 23, 2014 - 08:18am PT
have a great day nature
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 23, 2014 - 09:01am PT
Not true at all...

Really? Not at all?

You throw me under the bus (well, you tried to, lol; incomplete success) for (1) challenging the claim, "Islam is a religion of peace" and (2) drawing attention to the caliphate and (3) lumping all Muslims together (painting w the broad brush) though in the posts I drew clear distinctions between Islamic moderates, Islamic fundies and Islamic jihadis.

Hey but our ox ain't getting gored... hakuna matata.

.....

"I have long struggled to understand how smart, well-educated liberals can fail to perceive the unique dangers of Islam." -Sam Harris

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-and-the-misuses-of-ecstasy
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 23, 2014 - 09:40am PT
Thank you, sketch.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 23, 2014 - 09:58am PT
That acts to deflect attention from our lack of evidence supporting the existence of gods. Any gods. After thousands of years of looking for a god and finding none, we have a good chance of safely conducting our lives under the assumption there is none. If no evidence has shown up in thousands of years, none will probably show up while any of us lives. If it does, we all will be free to deal with it rationally.

It so amazes me, and saddens me more than anything, how it is that people are so far disconnected for their own consciousness and from the consciousness of people all around and throughout time.

Do you really believe mature men/women would devote their lives and resources toward a God of no thing without ever reciprocating any thing? God and the bible are living and working in people's lives today. Atleast I KNOW He is in my life and the people I pray with.

Every single day is extremely precious it took an awful lot of work to get us to this point, IT'S NO ACCIDENT!
Don't waste life on worldly trash. Pick up people that are down and out, less fortunate, not as smart as you. This is where you will meet the savior.


The idea of Hell had to be ginned up to deal with the overwhelming lack of evidence. Hell is a device whose only purpose seems to be that of confusing.

EVERYTHING in nature is a push-pull, positive-negative. There couldn't be one without the other. No light without darkness, in this universe anyway. It only seems reasonable if there's a heaven there's got to be a hell.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Aug 23, 2014 - 10:03am PT
An Agnostic says he neither believes nor disbelieves, he is a fence straddler

An Atheist is off the fence, as certain in his belief that there is no such thing as gods as theists are certain that there is.


the OP of this thread claims to offer an alternative to mass spewing by inviting us to contact him so he can spew one on one

both approaches are spewing


I have yet to read anywhere on this forum where an atheist invites believers to join him
in looking at human existence without the need for gods or Buddhas

question: why is it that god believers feel so strongly compelled to evangelize and atheists do not?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 23, 2014 - 10:12am PT

I offer a moment of reprieve this morning...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fkWYcCSjuQ
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 23, 2014 - 10:35am PT
Interesting opinion piece in the New York Times this morning by a Muslim gentleman on how salafis, the dogmatic and evangelical Sunni sect, make up the violent Muslim groups around the world. http://nyti.ms/1nkuTZ4

Most Sunni Muslims around the world, approximately 90 percent of the Muslim population, are not Salafis. Salafism is seen as too rigid, too literalist, too detached from mainstream Islam. While Shiite and other denominations account for 10 percent of the total, Salafi adherents and other fundamentalists represent 3 percent of the world’s Muslims.

Wayno, Thanks for the kind words. Really enjoyed meeting you and the conversations. Oakdale was amazing and Grossman puts on a good time. The "campfire" with Bridwell and other luminaries back at the hotel was an unexpected gift. Thanks for the insight on Bridwell's reaction to my story. I was teasing him with respect for him and his accomplishments, but I may not have put it across well. I will make sure he knows the respect I have for him and his accomplishments. He is the reason for the magic we experienced in Yosemite in the 70s; he was the mayor of C4, the hub of the Valley scene, the ringleader, the catalyst for the energy then. He deserves his due respect because of it. The most recent Rock and Ice has articles by and about him are worthy reads. Few have experienced or done what he has.

Norton, agnostics aren't fence sitters, typically. The usually have a very strong position that there are things that are unknowns and that often the various Truths that both theists and atheists claim to be true with a capital T are just opinions.
jfs

Trad climber
Upper Leftish
Aug 23, 2014 - 10:48am PT
Norton, I think what gets missed is the implied moral responsibility that Christian faith, at its core, levies onto its followers. The essence of Christian faith is that without belief in Christ and God, a person's soul is lost. Whether or not you or anyone else holds to the same belief, it is this tenet that, in effect, requires believers to share what they hold to be true with those who believe differently. To do otherwise would be tantamount to refusing to save a drowning man while holding the life preserver in your hand.

To re-state this, the concept of sharing the faith is elemental to Christianity and not only the misguided pride of some/many (?) of its followers. The corniness of the "Good News Gospel" slogan has its basis in this.

You can disagree with the theology all you want of course. It might be ridiculous to your mind. The belief of illogical raving lunatics even. Your call. But understanding the above, might be useful to know WHY they just won't SHUT UP already…

I obviously have some connection here to Christian Faith. Lets just say I'm still working things out, but I prefer to have these conversations from some level of mutual understanding as to where we're all starting from.

cheers.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 23, 2014 - 11:02am PT
"By their fruits ye shall know them."

Talk less, do more. Jesus (at least supposedly according to the New Testament) washes his disciples feet and said he'd given them an example and they should go out and do the same.

Used to have a patient that would always proselytize in my office. One time in a treatment room he was all excited and couldn't wait to tell me about Bush making a stand against all those faggots by making a law against gay marriage. Asked how the Jesus that ministered to the lepers and prostitutes and told only those without sin to stone Mary would feel about that kind of hatred. That at least gave him pause.

Turns out he was having an affair the whole time he was proselytizing in my office. I would never claim sharing the "good word" is always like that or that he represents all Christians (more like he represents the possibility for all of us to be hypocrites like that), but I want to see what you do rather than what you say. Where the rubber meets the road is the proof of the usefulness of someone's beliefs, whether those beliefs are religious or philosophical.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 23, 2014 - 11:42am PT
but I want to see what you do rather than what you say. Where the rubber meets the road is the proof of the usefulness of someone's beliefs, whether those beliefs are religious of philosophical.

Mark, with that sentence, you have summed up the whole thing.

When we look around at the actions of most religious people, they are often NOT practicing the love that they profess for humankind in general, and the poor in particular.

We see the richest folks, who proclaim their devoutness, actually taking actions to suppress the poor and middle class, and keep their foot firmly upon their necks. We see contributions....when they are deductible. We see laws designed to concentrate wealth. We see little of the actions sanctioned by the Jesus they profess to love.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 23, 2014 - 11:43am PT
For Locker....

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 23, 2014 - 11:49am PT
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca

Aug 22, 2014 - 09:38pm PT

Not true at all. I just don't support painting with a broad brush, and extrapolating the actions of some, to all members of a group. I don't support that for Christians, either.

Riiiiight.

That explains:
Ken M

Aug 18, 2014 - 09:37am PT

Now the Christians hang gay youth from barbed wire, and beat them to death. They are FAR more civilized.

Thanks, fell into my Rhetorical Trap.

In my second quote, you fail to note that what I am replying to, was a statement that Christians are all wonderful, all civilized, and that I was supplying an example of an exception.

Giving you, once again, a chance to proclaim "well, those were not real Christians!!! That was terrible, that was murder, that was wrong"

instead, what we keep hearing about that murder.....is silence. (one did appropriately post, and good on 'em. But no other "Christian" has done do)
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 23, 2014 - 12:11pm PT
Honestly, I didn't know that I could delete it. And I wouldn't anyway because in a sick way, that might be worse than letting the thread continue. I can only imagine the hate I might get from "censoring" the thread.

K now you know. But you don't want to do what you said your value was - not perpetuating mass spew about Christianity - because of the hate that might come your way? We all have our values I guess, self interest is pretty high for all of us.

I'm intentionally staying out of this, as much as I want to jump in, believe me :) But in response to direct comments to me ..

I believe that Kalimon asked you directly if Christians were better than Muslims.

Thanks for your thread!
Jawon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2014 - 10:03pm PT
StahlBro:
This has to be right up there for most ironic thread evah
Despite the fact that I'm the OP, I couldn't agree more.

rbord, you're coming across like a high school bully trying to pick a fight for no reason. No fight to be had here. I think the vast majority of people got my point with the very first post so I'll just leave it at that. Gonna go climb now.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Aug 24, 2014 - 12:20am PT
It so amazes me, and saddens me more than anything, how it is that people are so far disconnected for their own consciousness and from the consciousness of people all around and throughout time.

Do you really believe mature men/women would devote their lives and resources toward a God of no thing without ever reciprocating any thing? God and the bible are living and working in people's lives today. Atleast I KNOW He is in my life and the people I pray with.

Every single day is extremely precious it took an awful lot of work to get us to this point, IT'S NO ACCIDENT!
Don't waste life on worldly trash. Pick up people that are down and out, less fortunate, not as smart as you. This is where you will meet the savior.

You're not the only one, so don't sweat it. We have been beaten down for years.

Some remain silent and go on with their lives, and that's fine, but others speak out and denounce THIS BULLSH#T!

I, and the army behind me are tired of this. There is a stewing army of people who want America back. The America where we didn't know what Spec Ops were doing, where we killed jihadis on sight. The America where kids could run around carelessly until dark in the neighborhood without any fears.

We're not there yet.

As for people you meet and your personal lives? Rock on!

Illegitimi non carborundum. Do NOT let the bastards get you down.

(keep a couple of rounds near yer weapon)
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 24, 2014 - 12:54am PT
If God exists he/she/it doesn't like us much.

That's blaspewme.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 24, 2014 - 08:54am PT
rbord you're coming across like a high school bully trying to pick a fight for no reason.

Sorry if I sounded judgmental. Not my intent at all.

Jawon you're coming across like you lack strength of your own convictions, or maybe misunderstand them - more mass spew about Christianity, less mass spew about Christianity? Which is it? Are you sure that you're being honest about the value that you're serving?

My thanks to you are sincere - glad to see you taking a more active role in your thread with the rest of us.

All I'm saying is that whatever your worldview, continued seeking is wrestling is what we ALL need.

Is that really all you're saying? If I have a relationship in my soul with a spiritual advisor which I call Jesus, but I don't believe the story about how a human 2000 years ago was sent down by God, what are, as you claim your motivation is, the eternal implications? Will God still use one of his saves on me, or am I SOL?

Thanks again!
Jawon

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2014 - 04:37pm PT
rbord, sincerely and with no animosity, I am at a loss what your point is. What I thought I was saying pretty clearly all along is this...

1. I believe (as I think most people do) that online discussions about religion is useless. The tendency is to spray, not listen (just read this thread).

2. If there is sincere interest in discussing religion, it should be done in relationship so we get to dig deeper together and understand each others' backstory.

3. If anyone wants a more personal view of someone's journey to Christianity, supertopians can feel free to contact me.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 24, 2014 - 05:26pm PT
if anyone wants a more personal view of someone's escape from Christianity, contact Locker for a free feel.

Dig deeper together into each other's backstory.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
Jawon,
Your invitation is worthy!

But you can tell from the spew-acholics here in the last pages that alot of spewers aren't ready to come face to face with their own face..

Frankly, i believe "spewing" truths into their minds is something God can use! Remember, Gods "Word" is the foundation of the world! And without a foundation, their house is made of straw and will be blown away. It IS up to us to share His Word.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2014 - 05:33pm PT

contact Locker for a free feel.

Locker's never known the Lord. He told me so.

Prolly why he's looking at a motorcycle to be happy?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 24, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
"come face to face with your own face"

Papa put two mirrors on opposite walls of our bathroom, facing each other. In high school I quickly learned to never go in there while stoned.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 24, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
how could flying through a land of eternal sunshine straddling a mechanical war pony that goes 110 mph at the flick of a wrist possibly make anyone happy?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2014 - 05:44pm PT

In high school I quickly learned to never go in there while stoned.

Thats some of what i'm talk'in bout.

How can one be honest with their own face when someone/something is steering them?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2014 - 05:49pm PT

how could flying through a land of eternal sunshine straddling a mechanical war pony that goes 110 mph at the flick of a wrist possibly make anyone happy?

Prolly being inches from death, coming out alive, seems "God-like"?

Ask Base104 about his experiences.
Captain...or Skully

climber
in the oil patch...Fricken Bakken, that's where
Aug 24, 2014 - 07:24pm PT
Religion is just another drug, like football.
What's so bad about no gods or when you die, you're dead?
Are you afraid?....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2014 - 08:14pm PT

Are you afraid?....

No not at all. Well, it could have been a motivator?

i think it's better then waiting to the last minute and having all these questions, and not having any time to get answers..
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2014 - 09:14pm PT
Show me one single thing actually written by GOD...
and I will be an instant believer...

^^^ There you go!

Thank You God!


Oh ye of little faith..



Edit: That was just written of your avatar as an example, nothing meant personally!(talk'in bout the prior rhetoric).
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 24, 2014 - 09:51pm PT

No GOD had anything to do with what I posted...

I should know...

I posted it.

Not even God the Creator?

Didn't ur "I" create that post?

WE are Brothers to Him, don't'cha know?
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 25, 2014 - 07:15am PT
This is from a previous post I made about these topics that seemed to fit here.


Aug 27, 2013 - 12:47am PT
Apes throw their sh#t. They can throw a lot of it and they can throw it a long ways.

We've evolved to the point we can invent our own sh#t, a lot of it and in great variety. We become convinced that our sh#t is better than everybody else's sh#t and that they're stupid or evil if they don't believe our shift is the best sh#t.

We are so creative that we deceive ourselves into believing that we didn't just make this sh#t up and it is actually reality.

There's a guy who once said that by their fruits we shall know them. We could make up less sh#t and just make a point of showing up and being useful.

PS I just made this sh#t up.

Seems like ego is at the center of a belief that god looks like them and listens to and responds to their personal prayers. Seems like ego is at the center of the belief that the sciences that we have invented and the models we have developed account for all of reality and are perfectly accurate.
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2014 - 07:42am PT
Seems like ego is at the center of a belief

Ironic from a guy doing a lot of his own spewing in this thread making his own claims based on his own belief with no proof.

Check your own ego Mark .....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 07:48am PT
" Seems like ego is at the center of the belief that the sciences that we have invented and the models we have developed account for all of reality and are perfectly accurate."

Aaaand I know zero people practicing or interesting in science who believe this.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 08:10am PT
with Jesus, no less - "I'm not your Father, Luke...I'm your Brother"

I am learning SO MUCH about Christianity here.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 08:18am PT
Well THAT resolves the question of where the Universe came from.

The Self Eating Watermelon Theory.

3000 years of Yahweh debunked in under 5 seconds.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 08:30am PT
Christianity in 4 words:

Yahweh or the Highway.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 25, 2014 - 08:31am PT
Werner, almost all of us have lots of ego. A lot of people feel I'm full of it....... ;-)

The point I'm trying to make is that we all have beliefs about this god issue and none of us have proof. And, that's OK. There is a difference between claiming a belief and claiming that your belief is the truth with a capital T. I am questioning that position whether you're a theist or an atheist.

There are the edges of science that aren't so solid and there is religion which is all about taking stuff on faith. There are the values, morals, and ethics within religions that we can observe their effect and economies (benefits). Then there are philosophies and their ethics. I find the ethics within stuff Jesus, supposedly, said about how to act/be in the world that is compelling and that forms part of my personal philosophy.

But, being agnostic, my position is that none of us ultimately know. We just try to understand all of it the best we can and make sh#t up about it.

Jawon seems like a good guy and seems motivated by compassion to be of service. None of the stuff I'm posting is about doubting his sincerity.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 08:36am PT
Catholicism, bumper sticker version:

"Ass, cash, or mass, nobody abides for free"
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 08:42am PT
Service?

Self-service, perhaps.

Call my crazy, but my definition of 'service' is doing things for others they want or need done without compensation.

I haven't seen much of that, here.

Um...I haven't seen that in this thread.The OP kicked off this thread with typical, provocative innernut name calling. That's fine with a bit of humor.

I haven't detected any of that from this source either.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 08:50am PT
Whether agnostic, theist, or atheist, an individual either attempts to define reality for others or not.

So far, I've seen no atheists here attempt to do that, but plenty of theists and agnostics sure have.

Control issues, probably. It isn't the 'ism', it's the individual.

Perhaps Miss Manners 101 would be a better class for you, Locker!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 08:56am PT
I'd respond, but I'm too busy checking everyone's typos.

I believe in service.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Aug 25, 2014 - 09:29am PT
Thanks Jawon.

My point is this. You started this thread of mass spewing about Christianity on our pubic discussion forum. You started it by implicitly disparaging the conversation that we're having (spewing). You created the thread because YOU need to tell everyone that you know the TRUTH, and if we don't change our beliefs to match yours, we will suffer eternal consequences.

But I'm the bully? When I said that self interest is high for all of us, was I bullying myself?

Thanks for your participation. I've offered a question that bothers me.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 09:36am PT
Jesus loves you, Locker.

Not like He loved your mom, perhaps, but still....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 09:39am PT
I think the distinction between 'not knowing' and out-and-out disbelief may blur a bit at the 99.9% mark, but I can't really know for sure.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 25, 2014 - 10:20am PT
Seems like ego is at the center of the belief that the sciences that we have invented and the models we have developed account for all of reality and are perfectly accurate. -Mark Force

That is seriously messed up.

Perhaps this is one that just slipped out, that MF keeps in reserve to tell his anti-science, uber-religious clients?
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 25, 2014 - 11:14am PT
Man I can't even tell you how many people I've come across who claim that the current scientific models 'account for all of reality and are perfectly accurate'.

Oh wait, actually I can.

It's exactly zero.

But if I do find one, i'll let em know how egotistical they are.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 11:30am PT
It's the sad little 'science = religion' argument - put out by the religious in an attempt to degrade the credibility of evidence-based theory so as to put in on the same intellectual and logical plane as desire-based faith. A purely defensive maneuver.

They attempt to foist the same on atheism, too.

Essentially -

"Well, if I'm an idiot, then so are you."

Not that the religious are all idiots. Just the religious who try to conflate faith with the credibility of well-supported scientific theories.

Apples (get it?) and oranges.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
Spoken like Hitler.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 25, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
HFC, I may not have articulated well. I'm primarily a science guy. I work in in the realm of science applied clinically as best as I can determine. Love the method and the models and the process of discovery and understanding. My belief is that the science perspective of reality is overall the closer model to what is going on in what we call reality. The stand I'm making is that it is common for the science types to overestimate the reality of scientific models of reality. There are the rough edges and there is the stuff we just don't know. There's science that's pretty well worked out basic physics, mechanics, gravity, chemistry, evolution, geology, etc. and there's stuff that there are questions - cosmology anyone?

My belief is that religion isn't an accurate model of reality, but that there is room for some form of intelligent force that underlies observable phenomena at some level (particle physics? the presence of homeostatic adaptation in living systems?) that is not completely accounted for in our reductionistic scientific models, as useful as they are. The method can be useful to the psyche it seems (archetypal insight?) for some, though the exercise of it from most examples seem to be primarily oriented around politics, economics, and control. Ethics that may come religion seem to often be useful - love/compassion, charity, service, non-judgement, forgiveness.

IMHO ;-), the only completely science based position is that there are some things we seem to know well, some things we sort of know, and some things we just don't know.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 01:02pm PT
Paging Donald Rumsfeld. Donald Rumself, to the Spew Ward.

That one's choice of ethics can be informed from a variety of sources, including religion, is a given among the non-religious. Some of us also recognize that, historically, many religious ethics are borrowed either from other religions or previous, non-religious sources. To the non-religious, the source of ethics may be interesting, but action is everything.

Fundamentalists, in contrast, insist that morality hail from their god. Given this, the non-religious are assumed to either be a) ignorant of the 'true' source of their morals or b) not as moral as a religious person, because that is simply not possible without fealty to their god. While action is important to a fundamentalist, the ethics that drive those actions must also be pure.

Such xenophobic viewpoints are characteristic of cults. The exclusivity necessary for cult survival is defended by de-legitimizing non-members using measures that society values most greatly. We see this in nearly every thread involving fundamentalist Christianity. It is a divisive and wholly unnecessary byproduct of absolutist thinking.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 25, 2014 - 01:08pm PT
Tvash, yes, the idea that ethics and morality can only come through believing in god and following some religion is a silly notion.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
I'm not responding to you. I'm merely making an observation.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 25, 2014 - 01:11pm PT

IMHO ;-), the only completely science based position is that there are some things we seem to know well, some things we sort of know, and some things we just don't know.


That's the way I learned the scientific method, and I don't think it's changed. After all, if scientists really thought they knew everything, they'd have nothing to do.

John
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 25, 2014 - 01:25pm PT

Given this, the non-religious are assumed to either be a) ignorant of the 'true' source of their morals or b) not as moral as a religious person,

Where's ur source for Objective Morality?
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 25, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
Every time someone pulls out the "science doesn't know everything, so there's a chance God could exist" argument, it makes me think of this scene

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
As a human, our 'fundamental reality' is what our senses have evolved to tell us. Even that is incredibly fallible. And it doesn't really tell us much.

Past that, 'reality' is what our instrumentation and scientific models tell us. That's all we get.

That we will somehow get 'beyond that' is a human construct. The idea that there is some implicit order that we can 'know' without some form of observation is just that, an idea. We can predict such an implicit order, but if we can't test it, we can't validate it.

And if we could, we'd still be faced with - what's the implicit order underlying the implicit order?
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Aug 25, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
god believes in me,
and she is arguing with her
peers about whether i exist or not.
they are fighting wars over
who's the spiritual boss,
some of them believe in
dingus, others chuck clance.
there's a sect voting for neil young
and one for robin williams.

though your god believes
in and worships me.

and she thinks that jim morrison
is my son and is awaiting his re-birth.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 25, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
Moosedrooll and Tvash, now that's what I'm talkin' about!!!!
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Aug 25, 2014 - 04:44pm PT
I've read about 5 posts on this entire thread.

I think this thread has worked out well. Everybody is on the same page, a consensus has been reached...

What a sewer.
anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Aug 25, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 25, 2014 - 05:53pm PT

Past that, 'reality' is what our instrumentation and scientific models tell us. That's all we get.

ur funny.

Well how then do you measure/model will-power and the imagination of creativity? Isn't reality supposed to be predictable? Your predicting and measuring capability would be based on the averages of past experiences. You are not able to measure the amount of Will and Creativity in the present moment. Thus you can't determine if there will be More, or Less, in the future...

With ur attitude of "if you can't measure it or model it, it's not real" how does that relate in our Evolution. How did the "real things" that differentiate a species come to be? Let's take Wings for instance. Wings are 'reality' today, because they came from the past, so they are predictably in the future. BUT, what about before there were Wing's. Where was the measurement/model for the very first animal/insect that sprouted wing's then flew? WAs the model prescribed in the 'meat'/cells which calculated the change that needed to take place to 'morph' a pair of wings? Then enlightenment struck that bird/insect's brain and caused him to say, "Oh, wing's i must be able to fly!" And off he went.

Maybe the animal that was pre-bird/flying insect 'Willed' his body to grow wing's in somekind of creative thinking? The FRog prolly Willed his legs to become longer and stronger inorder to jump higher to catch flying bugs? And his tongue longer.

Did we humans Will ourselves to become upright? Or did our DNA pre-determine it to be, or not to be? That is the question, i'll leave you with
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 25, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
continuing in the drift,

IF we human's are going to continue in the evolutionary process, how will we make that next step in changing into a more 'advanced' species?

Will the mind and 'will' cause the body to change it's DNA to morph into something else we find more advantages?

Or is our body's DNA slowly unravelling a different new advanced body and our new conscious will arrive once the body is formed?

We've all witnessed advancement in climbing. With the recent Alex Honnold phenomenon, Is his ability a credit to his parents genes?

Or is his achievements a product of Creative Will-Power accumulated from the consciousness of the entire climbing world?
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Aug 25, 2014 - 07:14pm PT
Aw Jesuz Christ...
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 25, 2014 - 07:29pm PT
Once you've experienced a collapsed sewer, you never use the word in a derogatory sense ever again.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 26, 2014 - 05:00am PT
Not on a first date, perhaps.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 26, 2014 - 08:24am PT
Science and art require pretty much the same kinds of processes. They are falsely pitted against each other generally by people who practice neither.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 27, 2014 - 10:54am PT
I am reading Bill Bryson's In a Sunburned Country (highly recommended), and he notes at one point how the white Christians (they were about 95% Christian at the time) treated the aboriginals:

The aboriginals would be killed and butchered to be used as dog food. A wife's husband would be beheaded before her, and she would be made to wear his dismembered head around her neck. For sport, they would chase them up trees, then shoot them in the limbs until they bled to death and fell to the ground (presumably then used to feed the dogs?).

Great Christian Fun!

Point is, no religion has a stranglehold on perfect relations to others.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 27, 2014 - 11:08am PT
Point is, no religion has a stranglehold on perfect relations to others.

That's right.

So what a contradiction you are!! taking into account all your other posts on ISIS, the Caliphate and the "religion of peace" - you troll, Ken M!!!!111

Haha!!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 27, 2014 - 11:31am PT
Bark bark! Bark! Bark bark bark!
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Aug 27, 2014 - 11:50am PT
READ THIS. Don't be fearful or blind.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/5-reasons-suspect-jesus-never-existed
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Aug 27, 2014 - 11:53am PT
You can do all the bible study that you can cram in but if you view it from a point of questions rather than already knowing the answer, you are apt to learn something.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 27, 2014 - 11:58am PT
Alright, Tvash, I'll lay off, I get it, Ken M is your boyfriend.

.....

Five reasons Jesus never existed? How about ONE reason he never rose from the dead THREE days after he died? Reality.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 27, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
I just get tired of seeing you burn the same old anti-PC (ever mis-applied) strawman on his lawn over, and over, and over....

New material, please.
jstan

climber
Aug 27, 2014 - 01:30pm PT
Found some Jehovah's Witness literature in my door today. It poses three "Big Questions".

1. What is the meaning of life?

2. Is god to blame for our suffering?

3. What happens when you die?

I have found my answer to all three.

1. Life's meaning is whatever each of us makes it.

2. I have no evidence any god exists so the question is ill defined.

3. Your heart stops, your brain goes inactive and that is the end of your part of the party.


Twenty years ago I would have been very surprised to see god questioned as in question 2.

Is some doubt beginning to creep in?????????
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Aug 27, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Aug 27, 2014 - 07:50pm PT
Timy - do you really believe that the #1 most significant person in history never even existed?

Are you kidding me?

Are you going to tell me that Cleopatra, Julius Caesar and George Washington never existed either? How about RamsesII?

What about the two thousand or so people who saw Jesus after his resurrection? Were they all delusional?

What about his twelve buddies, eleven of whom died rather nasty deaths defending who he was? [John was the only one who died of old age]

Would you die for a lie, Timy?

Cheers,
PTL and PTP Pete
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Aug 27, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
Yeah dude, Jim Morrison definitely existed
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Aug 27, 2014 - 07:57pm PT
Would you die for a lie, Timy?

better to live for one is the message I copy
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 27, 2014 - 09:08pm PT

Found some Jehovah's Witness literature in my door today. It poses three "Big Questions".

1. What is the meaning of life?

2. Is god to blame for our suffering?

3. What happens when you die?

I have found my answer to all three.

1. Life's meaning is whatever each of us makes it.

2. I have no evidence any god exists so the question is ill defined.

3. Your heart stops, your brain goes inactive and that is the end of your part of the party.


Twenty years ago I would have been very surprised to see god questioned as in question 2.

Is some doubt beginning to creep in?????????

Have you ever had a scientist show up spreading The Good News of Evolution?
NO. Because it ain't Good News!lol

Question 2, every good christian knows Man is solely responsible for suffering! It's only secularist that pronounce "If God is so great, why would He allow suffering?" i guess you expect Him to put His foot down everytime a law was broken? God allowed man free-will inorder for him to get a taste of being a Judge.

How about question 1, you pretty much hopped and skipped that one!
What's YOUR honest meaning of life? To Procreate?

And #3, Yea your body goes to dust, but doesn't the JStan energy/spirit move on? Even Light gets recycled.. ...along with EVERYTHING else!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 27, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
every good christian knows Man is solely responsible for suffering!

what do the bad ones know?
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 27, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
What about the two thousand or so people who saw Jesus after his resurrection? Were they all delusional?



Uhhh....

Yes. Yes they were.

Just like the two thousand or so people who have seen Elvis Presley after his resurrection.
jstan

climber
Aug 27, 2014 - 09:42pm PT
I'll put things back in their original order:

How about question 1, you pretty much hopped and skipped that one!
What's YOUR honest meaning of life? To Procreate?

Not at all. Without even realizing what you are doing you are assuming everyone is tracking the same meaning(s). Not. It's your religious bent showing up again. Procreation? Open your eyes for a moment. This planet is overburdened with us. And in general we learn an individual has the potential to contribute something truly exceptional only after they have lost the ability to procreate. Almost without exception, none of us has such a potential.

You have told us on several occasions what you think is meaningful. You have already agreed with my point.

Question 2, every good christian knows Man is solely responsible for suffering!

Then why do christians cause so much suffering? And why would a "good" and all powerful god give such heinous power to people with free will? Watch the news.


And #3, Yea your body goes to dust, but doesn't the JStan energy/spirit move on? Even Light gets recycled.. ...along with EVERYTHING else!

Mike, be very careful when tempted to use the words, always, never, or everything. It is the same as saying, "Ignore this. What I am saying is patently wrong."

Light can be absorbed, be converted to thermal energy and with time the systems with that energy become less and less able to do work. Do you really think the spirit of a photon is still recognizable when it degrades to small bits of energy possessed by who knows how many atoms? You need to understand what you mean by "moving on". Your meaning is so emotionally loaded you can't break through and see it.

As for evolution if you wanted, you could go read what Darwin had to say. Darwin is not in one of your circles.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 27, 2014 - 10:48pm PT
Jonestowners, the Raleans, jihadist suicide bombers - plenty o folks dying for lies out there. All you need is faith. Reality not required. Fervency means nada.

We are energy, matter AND information. Energy and matter are recycled - our information - who we were - and what differentiated us from a few pounds of water, carbon, and a handful of other elements, is destroyed. If you want to believe that few pounds of elements that remains is still you, knock yourself out. Don't feel bad if the phone stops ringing.

There is no historical proof HeyZeus existed - unlike Washington et al.

The Bible is not a historical document - at all. No authorship, for example…but that's just the beginning of the unknowns there. All those folks who saw Jesus after his resurrection? - the story was made up, juuuuuust like all the other religious myths of the period. Why is Isis a myth but Jesus isn't? Plenty of 'documentation' for the existence of Isis (way more, in fact - he's literally plastered all over Egypt.) Hmmmmm.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 27, 2014 - 10:49pm PT
be very careful when tempted to use the words, always, never, or everything.

Yea, fair enough.

You still only answered with another Question though.

As far as photons, do we not see "most" things move on to become something else?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 27, 2014 - 10:54pm PT
Information. Gone forever. Take someone's cremation urn and try to reconstruct a single one of their memories from it.

Write back when you've cracked it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 27, 2014 - 11:12pm PT
^^^it should be easier than the earth all by itself pushing up a pile of dirt causing DNA to form allowing us to stand-up and sing Happy-Birthday!

And where do you think this information came from or how it came to be?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 27, 2014 - 11:30pm PT

- he's literally plastered all over Egypt.)

i'm pretty sure the Egyptians have recorded history of atleast Mosses and Joseph.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 27, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
Why don't you research that while you're educating yourself about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics - and how creating complexity from simplicity is possible by adding energy to the system.
WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2014 - 07:39am PT
Stooopid people are the biggest cause of war.

This thread is 99% full of stooopid people who also cause war without even knowing they do.

Stooopid stupid stupid people .....

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 28, 2014 - 08:06am PT
It's spelled "stoopit", Peacemaker.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 28, 2014 - 08:11am PT
It's amazing to me how many die hard Christians

a) aren't at all familiar with scripture and
b) have no idea whatsoever where that scripture originated from

That's real faith, boy.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 28, 2014 - 08:21am PT
the curse of knowledge...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge

.....

Thank goodness I was raised on The Scientific Story.

For every ONE like me raised on The Scientific Story (incl physics, chem, bio, ecology, evo, etc..) there are 20 others in America who were raised on the Bible Stories.

Two distinct models for how the world works.

If change is this slow here in the internet-driven info age, imagine how slow it was 1000 years ago.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Aug 28, 2014 - 08:54am PT
Would you die for a lie, Timy?

If I never existed, then I couldn't die.

Read the article. It was in vogue at the time to take existing myths and conflate them into a writer's own story and claim it to be truth.

I don't know the truth, but if he did live, Jesus was just one of many travelling preachers. It was a common hobby at the time as well. Like Tvash pointed out earlier, Paul blew him up way later for personal gain.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 28, 2014 - 09:37am PT
from fruity's link,

it was also found that for adults: "knowledge becomes a more potent curse when it can be combined with a rationale for inflating one's estimates of what others know".

See it all the time in kids, they just presume everyone else knows what they know.

As adults, we should work harder to talk our opinions out, and strive to understand opposing views. Some learn how to do this with an ear of love by the raising of children. i see those men that don't bare children tend to force their opinions on others without regard to where opposing opinions stem from. Thus the "my way, or the highway" attitude rises from the animal instinct. With the temperament towards murder. This is not a healthy way to teach a child, so why would it be good to teach a brother with such prejudice?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 28, 2014 - 10:51am PT
Um...I know the opposing view. 8 years of religious schooling. a true believer until age 19 - and I apparently know A LOT more scripture than you do, even today.

I never had some Big Life Crisis That Brought Me To Jesus, though.

I do not attempt to 'teach' Christians. I simply present what I see as the fallacies and injustices of the religion - both in philosophy and its practice - for public discussion and invite comments on same.

Funny - I rarely get any critiques of any of my specific statements from true believers with the notable exception of John E. It's mostly the kind of idiotic strawmen and just plain nonsense, like the post above.

Hey, if you want to base your entire life on whatever, fine. I find it helps to know the origins and evidence for your most cherished beliefs, but YMMV.

jstan

climber
Aug 28, 2014 - 10:55am PT
According to Devers, Moses is an Egyptian name. This past spring a group of Israeli archeologists released a final report stating that there was no direct archeological data connected to any of the biblical stories. We here in our cultural context are discussing the Bible which was created in its own cultural context. While we think, probably incorrectly that we know our context, few of us have the barest idea of what Abraham was all about. I didn't. Well, here is a start.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/archeology-hebrew-bible.html



WBraun

climber
Aug 28, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Tvash -- "I apparently know A LOT more scripture than you do, even today."

No wonder you spew all day every day in these types of threads.

Academics in scriptures means ultimately you don't really know sh!t and is very evident by all your daily spew ......

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 28, 2014 - 11:33am PT
Interesting article and site, Jstan. Thanks for posting.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Aug 28, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
Academics in scriptures means ultimately you don't really know sh!t and is very evident by all your daily spew ......

So by this logic, one can say "2+2=9 because that's what I believe and if you go and learn some math and try to say otherwise, you won't know shit".
Sounds like total spew.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 28, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
Werner's a good man. Just one with a limited vocabulary.
jstan

climber
Aug 28, 2014 - 01:23pm PT
In the link I posted above reference is made from 1000 BCE to "those who sleep in the dust." And even till 600 BCE common people were linking Yahweh to the Canaanite mother goddess Asheran. Despite their having left that culture and going to the hill country to start over. Apparently this coupling by the common people was fought tooth and nail by the authors of the Hebrew bible.

Am I alone in seeing similarities between that cultural stress and the threads we see on ST? Has anything at all changed in 3000 years?

Last week I was cleaning up some scattered mattresses and sofas. Suddenly I noticed right behind me a homeless girl who paused but then walked on toward downtown JT. When working I focus on the work. It was several minutes before I realized I was destroying her home and that she was powerless and quite afraid to tell me what I was doing. As much as I could I left unchanged what she needed.

People are still sleeping in the dust.

Has anything changed? Now as then, people have a number of lives available to them and they chose from those lives the one they prefer. When the US emptied its mental institutions some portion of those people were able to choose homelessness. In that life there was at least more freedom.

If there is change it lies in our access to knowledge. I can learn that 3000 years ago people had to sleep in the dust and others felt badly about it. Today we don’t have to die from many of the old diseases. And if we are lucky we don’t have to deal with thugs carrying weapons. Sometimes at least.

We very much need to learn.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 28, 2014 - 01:43pm PT
Has anything at all changed in 3000 years?

Steven Pinker, The Better Angels of Our Nature


Keep the faith, jstan. (The evidence and reason-based faith, that is.)

1,000 years from now, we'll have either (a) a lot more consensus about how we should live our lives; or (b) a lot fewer people.

"we'll" - lol!

Well, "we'll" - as in our species.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 28, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
I wonder if any of our resident Christians will review the archaeological data presented in links like the one recently provided? It would be interesting to hear their take on them.
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Aug 28, 2014 - 08:19pm PT
but do you know the sound of one hand clapping?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 28, 2014 - 08:22pm PT
Wow! How articulate and candid! Frank Sinatra is on belief, God and religion and everything else. Here's an interview with Playboy, 1963, if you can believe it! Check it out!!

http://longform.org/stories/playboy-interview-frank-sinatra

"let’s let it run. I’ve thought this way for years, ached to say these things."

"It figures that if a man is frustrated in a material sense, his family hungry, he suffers, he broods and he becomes susceptible to the blandishments of any ideology that promises to take him off the hook."

"I’ve always had a theory that whenever guys and gals start swinging, they begin to lose interest in conquering the world. They just want a comfortable pad and stereo and wheels, and their thoughts turn to the good things of life—not to war. They loosen up, they live and they’re more apt to let live. Dig?"

Very impressed!!!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 28, 2014 - 09:21pm PT
plenty o folks dying for lies out there

You are missing the point.

Plenty of people die for lies, but only because they believe them.

People do NOT die for what they themselves know to be a lie.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 28, 2014 - 09:29pm PT
Um, I think that was assumed. I might have even mentioned it.

Is this a trick question?

Christ, Allah, Jim Jones, the Thousand Year Reich - bullshit is bullsh#t.
jstan

climber
Aug 28, 2014 - 09:35pm PT
MB1:
As the journalist's head was being cut off he knew it was all about a lie. People who did not agree with the inquisition still had molten lead poured down their throats. A lot of the vets in Nam knew it was all a lie. Snowden did his job for quite some time knowing it was illegal.

You are a thinking person. How did you miss all of that?

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 28, 2014 - 09:37pm PT
I believe we're talking about people willingly sacrificing themselves here.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2014 - 12:54am PT
As the journalist's head was being cut off he knew it was all about a lie. People who did not agree with the inquisition still had molten lead poured down their throats. A lot of the vets in Nam knew it was all a lie. Snowden did his job for quite some time knowing it was illegal.

No, the claim was that there was nothing special about Christ's disciples sacrificing their lives for a lie. It was claimed that people give up their lives for a lie all the time.

And I said that that claim was missing the point. The issue here is not whether people give up their lives for a lie. The issue here is whether or not people give up their lives for what they themselves KNOW is a lie.

So far, there have been no examples of that.

"Snowden did his job for quite some time knowing it was illegal." Oh, come on. This one isn't even relevant. Snowden BELIEVED that what he was doing was RIGHT and that the laws the NSA were breaking demanded exposure. He didn't believe what he himself knew to be a lie. He believed what he thought was the truth. Whether he was incorrect or not is irrelevant. He did not believe what he himself KNEW was a lie.

"As the journalist's head was being cut off he knew it was all about a lie." Not the same thing at all! And obviously not. HE didn't believe the lie. And HE did not sacrifice HIMSELF for what he knew to be a lie.

"People who did not agree with the inquisition still had molten lead poured down their throats." Again, not the same thing, and obviously not. As with the journalist, they were not sacrificing themselves to sustain a lie they were telling the world and that they themselves knew to be a lie.

"A lot of the vets in Nam knew it was all a lie." Closer, but still not EVEN a cigar. The vets were not dying to TELL the lie. And they were not being martyred, which is a huge difference! Every soldier has a hope of making it through.

Contrast that with a martyr who is about to be burned at the stake....

"Recant your lies, and you shall be spared. But do not recant, and the fire will burn your flesh away starting from the feet up."

YOU are that person tied to the stake, and you KNOW that what you have been saying is a bold-faced lie. Do you or do you not INSTANTLY recant?

Of course you do! There is ZERO motivation to push the lie, that you KNOW to be a lie, and have your flesh burned off from the feet up. I am CERTAIN that you would not get 10 seconds into the roasting before you would be SCREAMING: "It was a lie! All a lie! STOP the fire! I recant!"

What happens under torture is that people will say ANYTHING to make it stop. They will lie to make it STOP!

What people will NOT do is lie to intentionally make torture START and then keep lying to make it continue! People do not lie and lie through torture to the point of death.

THAT is the point, and none of you have yet offered up a counterexample.

And even if you could find one or two people in history that had done so, the disciples had to be engaged in a conspiracy, where without exception they had to lie and lie without flinching in the face of torture and death. And the torture and death were ABOUT the very lies they were supposedly telling. ALL they would have had to do is simply quit lying... any one of them... and the whole "lie" would have unraveled.

You do not get dozens to hundreds of people TOGETHER to tell what they KNOW to be a lie and then die to seal the lie.

Even the Jim Jones example is flatly ridiculous. Those people didn't KNOW that what they believed was a lie. That is the really amazing part of that story... that so many people could be led to BELIEVE in a goofball like Jim Jones. But they believed! They did not perpetrate a lie KNOWING that it was a lie.

What you have to think about the apostles to get the conspiracy theory off the ground is something lie this:

* The apostles stole the body and then started lying publicly that Christ had risen.

* They themselves knew that what they were floating was a bold-faced lie.

* They then endured decades of unpopularity, poverty, and ultimately torture and death FOR the lie that they knew was a lie.

* ALL they had to do to lead normal and fairly comfortable lives was SIMPLY not keep telling the lie!

* But they chose the infamy, torture, and death FOR the lie, even knowing every step of their lives that it was all a lie.

Nope! Ridiculous. Nobody does that. And no group of people do that. Not for what they themselves know is a lie.

You have ALL sorts of more or less plausible ways to deny the veracity of the Bible about Jesus. But claiming that the apostles all bold-faced lied is not a plausible theory of what happened.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 05:24am PT
nobody has claimed that christian martyrs didn't believe - just what they believed is bullsh#t. people do that all the time for a variety of bullsh#t.

wow. your brain can't even go there MB, can it?

just…wow.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 09:10am PT
Claiming what the apostles believed to be true was actually bullshit is highly plausible, however. Of course, we have zero historical evidence that the apostles even existed at all. Zero.

Believing in bullshit is just what we Hairless Monkeys do. Peruse any forum here for evidence.

"Yeah, and then, and then, he took a loaf of bread and fed 50 people...no, wait, it was more like 500 people - maybe even a thousand..."

No, that could never happen. Those anonymous gospel authors over 100 years after the fact had to be spot on.

The Bible tells me so.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2014 - 09:53am PT
nobody has claimed that christian martyrs didn't believe - just what they believed is bullsh#t. people do that all the time for a variety of bullsh#t.

wow. your brain can't even go there MB, can it?

just…wow.

"nobody has claimed that christian martyrs didn't believe." Actually, that is precisely what has been claimed upthread: "They lied."

My only argument is that, whatever else might have happened, including the idea that they didn't even exist, the theory that they lied simply isn't plausible. Simple, straightforward point. I'm arguing nothing else.

But your mind can't even go there, huh?

Now, regarding the idea that they didn't even exist... Wow! Just wow!

So, the biggest religion on the planet just sprang up out of nowhere, fabricated entirely out of whole cloth, documented carefully by early-century historians (that are independently considered credible by even non-Biblical scholars), and was started entirely by non-existent people, huh? That's your theory?

Paul never existed? That's your theory?

Then I guess that these folks and writings also never existed: Josephus (although his reference is questionable); Tacitus (whose reference is not questionable), both Gemaras in the Talmud (updated in the first century, and both explicitly referring to Jesus as a factual figure, although, of course, denying that he was the Christ; and other credible historians of the first four centuries who documented the rise of Christianity.

ROFL

And this "lie" stands in stark contrast to the other, much more solidly established religions of the time, all of which have faded into utter obscurity and even non-existence. Whatever else it is, by your lights, this is by FAR the most successful "lie" in the history of humanity.

Look, it simply strains credulity to claim that there were no such people as Jesus and the apostles. There are much better arguments against Christianity than that! Go with those and quit bottom-feeding.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 29, 2014 - 10:01am PT
So, the biggest religion on the planet just sprang up out of nowhere, fabricated entirely out of whole cloth, documented carefully by early-century historians (that are independently considered credible by even non-Biblical scholars), and was started entirely by non-existent people, huh? That's your theory?

Paul never existed? That's your theory?

Crop Circles.
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 29, 2014 - 10:20am PT
The thing you have to understand when you're citing someone like Tacitus, is that we don't actually have anything written by Tacitus himself. The oldest surviving copy of the Annals dates from the 11th century, and is a copy of a copy penned by various Catholic scribes in Italy during the early years of the Inquisition.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 10:20am PT

jstan asked;

Am I alone in seeing similarities between that cultural stress and the threads we see on ST? Has anything at all changed in 3000 years?

jstan's nova link,

These are pioneers in the hill country who are fleeing the urban centers, the old Canaanite cities, which are in a process of collapse. And in particular they are throwing off the yoke of their Canaanite and Egyptian overlords. They are declaring independence.

Now, why these people were willing to take such a risk, colonizing the hill country frontier, is very difficult to know. I think there were social and economic compulsions, but I would be the first to say I think it was probably also a new religious vision.

As to your question; No! God loving people have been persecuted, killed, robbed and raped, chased out of towns, and have fled from the worldly warlords since before we could write! And why?, because secular man cannot comprehend faith, and the love for something/God he cannot touch. It all sounds alot like why and how our Nation got started! And the persecution of christians continues today throughout the world. Even here on ST. This is what i think anyway.

Just like the author of the article said many time's, "This is what i think!"
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Aug 29, 2014 - 10:21am PT
So, the biggest religion on the planet just sprang up out of nowhere, fabricated entirely out of whole cloth, documented carefully by early-century historians (that are independently considered credible by even non-Biblical scholars), and was started entirely by non-existent people, huh? That's your theory?

Paul never existed? That's your theory?

yes, I agree that IS the "theory"

Santa and the Easter Bunny are likewise also purely human invented myths

and so are ignorant smoking ducks, oh well that one is real
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 10:35am PT
By MB1's logic, Osiris, Zeus, Quezalcoatl, and every other God in human history actually exists.

I mean, THEY WOULDN'T LIE ABOUT THAT, WOULD THEY?

You can't make this stuff up....

I guess old MB's never played the Pass It On Story Game. Try it sometime and report back. It's amazing how quickly some Christians seem to forget about the basic quirks of human cognition - the tendency to exaggerate, misinterpret, fill in the blanks, etc, when even a little light is shined on the foundations, or lack thereof, of their religious beliefs.

It's widely believed by scholars that Paul existed, and that he was the author of 7 of the 14 New Testament books attributed to him by the Bible. He believed in the resurrection, but that, of course, says nothing about the validity of such a belief.

I believe there is no god. If you want proof, just ask me.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 29, 2014 - 10:44am PT
Quetzalcoatl, lol!!!

http://www.supertopo.com/forumsearch.php?ftr=Quezalcoatl

It just goes round n round n round...



But progress nonetheless, I'm seeing it and feeling it.

Tvash has taken the baton, go go!!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 11:14am PT
It's amazing to witness the power of a cult to compartmentalize - to suspend a person's analytical capacity with regards to their own faith even as they vigorously apply it to other similarly unfounded beliefs.

The true power of Christianity is that love really is the answer; without the empty promises, the phoney 'gifts', without the self-delusion that death can be escaped and the divisiveness it promotes, the tired, worn out end-of-the-world fantasies, without the bludgeon of 'perfection' and 'purity'. Heaven is here, if we choose to see it, and our brief lives here have meaning, if we choose to realize it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 11:15am PT

Has anything changed? Now as then, people have a number of lives available to them and they chose from those lives the one they prefer. When the US emptied its mental institutions some portion of those people were able to choose homelessness. In that life there was at least more freedom.

How would you know that people 3000yrs ago had a "number of lives" to choose from, for that matter how do you know people today do? Seems like most of the worlds population is poverty stricken, compared to your standards. Do you believe they choose that path? Sure education and knowledge can help eleviate poverty(and we should focus on that for the future), but what of the 4-5 billion in poverty TODAY?? How do you suppose we educate them? What HAS changed is that common folk, like you and me have risen above the stranglehold of the powerful controllers(ie, the governments) and we have the ability to say and do something about it!

What NEEDS to change is our evolutionized animalistic attitude of "only the strongest will survive", then stop in our tracks and offer those not as privileged a hand up.

i bbelieve "the christian way" has never really been worried about the future, since our faith IS eternal life. We're mostly devoted to TODAY, and dealing with what God puts in front of our next footstep. While Man goes on whirling his sword, Gods people are left cleaning up the mess! And for this you want to persecute us?
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2014 - 11:23am PT
Santa and the Easter Bunny are likewise also purely human invented myths.

Another silly argument.

Please tell me how many adult people in history have actually believed in the existence of the literal Easter Bunny or Santa Clause. How many people have been martyred for believing in them?

And, again, I'm not arguing that just because a bunch of people believe something, that makes it true. That is a ridiculous straw man of my argument.

My argument has been very focused: The apostles did not willingly give up their lives to seal a lie that they themselves knew to be a lie. Period. That just did not happen.

Regarding whether or not Jesus and the apostles actually existed, well, to quote your own arguments about ancient religions: It's impossible to take seriously the theory that the very people that started any of those religions actually didn't even exist!

You can say whatever you want about the veracity of the content of any given religion. That is a totally other debate. ALL I am arguing is that it is extremely plausible (indeed that opposite is not plausible) to believe that Jesus and the apostles really did exist.

And, assuming that they did exist, and that their accounts are precisely what got the most successful religion in human history started, it strains credulity to theorize that they were promoting (and dying for) what they themselves knew to be a grand lie.

Again, as to the content of what they promoted, that is an entirely different question, and I am not addressing it.
WBraun

climber
Aug 29, 2014 - 11:31am PT
it strains credulity to theorize that they were promoting (and dying for) what they themselves knew to be a grand lie.

Yes

These anti religion nutcases in this thread are always projecting how they themselves want it to be or what they themselves believe.

They make up sh!t all the time and project it onto their fantasy world they see thru their stupid distorted blurred eyeballs.

They're all as stupid as the same fools that say they believe in the Easter bunny ....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 11:32am PT
The Christian persecution complex is ubiquitous, but seldom, if ever, defined in specific terms. The questioning of Christian beliefs, and the rejection of Christian attempts to force their beliefs on the general population through public policy do not constitute persecution. Christians in America remain free to worship as they please.

Religion is clearly not the answer to poverty - development is. The most developed and highest functioning nations are more secular - and the poorest countries are more religious. Somalia is the most religious nation on earth - and Africa the most religious (and most poverty stricken) continent. In contrast, northern Europe, Japan, and Oceania are the most secular - and among the most developed, nations on earth.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 11:40am PT
Since we all agree that martyrdom is no proof of the validity of belief, and given that no historical proof exists that the apostles ever actually lived - any discussion of their supposed martyrdom is irrelevant. An assignment of 'extremely plausible' suffers from the total lack of historically supportable evidence. That they were all martyred, to a man, in some very imaginative ways (spears, arrows, boiling oil (oh wait, he survived), beheading, upside down crucifixion, right side up crucifixion, stoning, cliff tossing, dragged by a horse) is...um...instructive. Of course they were! Christians tend leave no stone unthrown when it comes to torture. My God, The Passion!

The Easter Bunny is a child's tale, but Egyptian gods like Amun and Ra reigned for 600 years longer than Christianity has to date.

Did these Egyptian gods really exist? In the minds of their believers, yes. For thousands of years.

Just like Christianity.

POST 420!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2014 - 12:03pm PT
Did these Egyptian gods really exist? In the minds of their believers, yes. For thousands of years.

You seem determined to miss the point. I'll say it one more time, slowly now, just for you:

I am not arguing about the veracity of the content of what they believed. I'm simply stating that it is ridiculous to think that the people that start any particular religion WILL intentionally be martyred for what they themselves know to be a lie.

I am also saying that it is ridiculous to think that the very people starting any religion with staying power themselves did not exist.

Got it this time?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 12:05pm PT

The Christian persecution complex is ubiquitous, but seldom, if ever, defined in specific terms.

It's pretty easily recognizable, it's like porn, you know it when you see it!

If my opinion goes against yours in say, homosexual marriage being equal to heterol sexual marriage, or that yanking a fetus is murder. Your dispute with me has not been to why, but to your opinion that i'm trying to force my makebelieve God's morals down your throat. Stick to the facts! i'm doing the voting, not God.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
"I am also saying that it is ridiculous to think that the very people starting any religion with staying power themselves did not exist."

In other words "I REALLY, REALLY believe this, so it must be true."

It makes little difference whether Ra is fiction, or the person who invented Ra is fiction, or the person who came after him is fiction. If Ra is, in fact, fiction, that fiction has to start somewhere.

Ra, of course, is not a fiction. He rises every day. Now, to be accurate, the god Ra is associated with the sun, but he was much more than that, and he morphed over time - blending with other gods. Still, it's not difficult to imagine how early Egyptians, and most likely many cultures before that, deified the sun in some fashion. After all, the sun really does have the power of life and death over everything. It's also not difficult to imagine how early Egyptians imparted human-like qualities to Ra - that's what we've evolved to do. It's easy to imagine that observing certain rituals at certain times with regards to the sun improved chances of survival and benefited ancient communities.

So where's the lie, exactly?

Humans constantly create their own mythology. It's what we do. What's he or she thinking or feeling about me? We misinterpret a passing gesture, an inflection of voice, and run with it to create a whole back story that is often largely fictional.

Are we lying?

Some Christians recognize the Bible as allegorical, others, over time, have come to view it as literal. This is, again, a common human practice for handed down stories. The Great Flood (did it really happen? Was it based on allegory, or a local disaster?). In this way a local flood eventually covers the whole world, a minor skirmish becomes an epic battle, and 3 story building becomes a cloud raked tower that almost reaches the sun.

Where's the lie?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
"If my opinion goes against yours in say, homosexual marriage being equal to heterol sexual marriage, or that yanking a fetus is murder. Your dispute with me has not been to why, but to your opinion that i'm trying to force my makebelieve God's morals down your throat. Stick to the facts! i'm doing the voting, not God."

Christians remain free not to have abortions nor enter into same sex marriages. This freedom has never been challenged by anyone, ever.

In contrast, Christians actively seek, in huge numbers (but perhaps not you individually), to impose such strictures on everyone in America. It's not a 'my opinion versus your opinion' thing. It's an imposition of religious law on everyone thing.

No thank you.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 01:09pm PT
Cooperation, competition, exploitation, isolation.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 01:20pm PT
Sorry JR if a missed ur question. Unintentional!

Survival of the Fittest is the backbone of all Evolutionary Theory i thought!

Not true? Please enlighten.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 29, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 29, 2014 - 01:53pm PT
Blu's beef is with nature, not science. He just doesn't realize it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 02:06pm PT
It's cool JR!

No ones been able to answer my questions on "evolution" either.

The Galapagos finches were not as important to Darwin as is often claimed, but they are a good example of micro-evolution. They show us that finches can vary in their morphology, and that natural selection has a role in this.

This study does not give evidence for macro-evolution, and does not prove that natural selection and random mutation could produce the living world as we know it from simple single-celled ancestors. TruthinScience.com

Darwin's theory's barely dealt with species "adjusting" the the environment. My questioned was concerning how the birds got their wings in the first place. Here's an easier one, what made Darwin's Flinches beaks to grow? What caused them to morph???
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
That's right Fruity, it's never the messenger just the message.
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Aug 29, 2014 - 02:09pm PT
Blu, there are answers to all those questions

why don't you just put them in your google search bar and hit enter?

it is SO easy to find things out very quickly nowadays
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
my gift to you BL

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 29, 2014 - 02:23pm PT
Darwin's theory's barely dealt with species "adjusting" the the environment.

No that's pretty much the sole focus of Origin of Species. It's just example after example of hard evidence showing that there is NO meaningful difference between "variations" and "species" (or in modern terms "micro" and "macro" evolution).

You should try reading a little bit about the theory of evolution from somewhere other than a Christian creationist site/book.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 02:28pm PT
^^^thats NOT what the link I posted above said.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 02:30pm PT
Just walk yourself through the Berkeley Evolution 101 course. It's quick, easy, and fun.

And it will answer in 30 minutes all the questions about evolution you've ever posted on ST far better than anyone here.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
If Ra is, in fact, fiction, that fiction has to start somewhere.

True! And what you do not get to do is deny that the people, whoever they were, that started it did not exist.

In the case of Christianity, we have a record of who started it. There's no special reason to doubt that the record of who started it is in fact accurate. Yet, amazingly, people on this thread deny that the people who started it even existed. That's what is a non-starter.

Mmmm-yeah... got it now?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
Convenient how they can't believe eyewitness accounts from 2k yro.
Yet they'll proclaim fact to the accounts 200-300 million yro.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 29, 2014 - 04:34pm PT
There's no special reason to believe that the record of who started it is true either. Considering the primary sources fail just about every conceivable test of credibility, it would be an enormous embarrassment if it turned out they were all just fabricated after the facts. But it's all just too big to fail, as they say.

And yeah, they're not eyewitness accounts, Blu. Not by a long shot.

To provide a good overview of the majority opinion about the Gospels, the Oxford Annotated Bible (a compilation of multiple scholars summarizing dominant scholarly trends for the last 150 years) states (pg. 1744):

“Neither the evangelists nor their first readers engaged in historical analysis. Their aim was to confirm Christian faith (Lk 1.4; Jn 20.31). Scholars generally agree that the Gospels were written forty to sixty years after the death of Jesus. They thus do not present eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus’ life and teachings.”

http://adversusapologetica.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/why-scholars-doubt-the-traditional-authors-of-the-gospels/
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 04:39pm PT
"True! And what you do not get to do is deny that the people, whoever they were, that started it did not exist.

In the case of Christianity, we have a record of who started it. There's no special reason to doubt that the record of who started it is in fact accurate. Yet, amazingly, people on this thread deny that the people who started it even existed. That's what is a non-starter."

Yeeees, somebody started something sometime. We can't know whether it was apostles named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John though or someone else for lack of historical evidence. The Bible is not a historical record - and it doesn't agree with itself, anyway. You may research that as you wish. You won't, but you should, given the importance in your life of your belief.

Myths are created over time by many people and they take many forms that continually change. Christianity is no different there. Christianity may have had its early beginnings long before the supposed life of Christ - in previous, very similar mythology. We can't know for sure, really. Not enough evidence. We know there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Christian sects nowadays, all with widely different beliefs.

Oh right, only one version is legit. Yours, right?



Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 29, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
That's definitely not a Stephen Hawking quote.
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Aug 29, 2014 - 04:54pm PT
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
Oh right, only one version is legit. Yours, right?

That kind of pot-shot most clearly reveals the "spirit" in which you both "argue" and seek for truth.

You know better than such a cheap shot, but that doesn't stop you from firing it. Thus, your own intellectual honesty (actually, lack thereof) is on full display.

Nuff said.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 05:27pm PT
True Christians.

Go figure!
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 29, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
When in doubt, try shaming. Always worth a shot.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 06:13pm PT
It's impossible to say how, exactly, Christianity really got started, but we can say for sure how some successful modern religions were founded for insight.

There are 15 million Mormons. Mormonism was founded in 1830 by Joseph Smith, a 'money digger' who made his living by paying paid to dig (unsuccessfully) for buried treasure using a seer stone. Smith was raised by parents and grandparents who believed they had religious visions - a trait Smith also claimed to have. In one, an angel told him where to find the famous golden plates and the seer stones with which to translate them. A total of 12 people (himself, 3 of his business partners and 8 extended family members) claimed to have seen these plates before they mysteriously disappeared. Smith was run out of New York by a mob for his money digging scams, tarred and feathered in Ohio, and had to flee Missouri to escape bank fraud charges - to name a few colorful events in his life. Smith was eventually killed by an angry mob while in an Illinois jail after being charged with treason for attempting to declare his own martial law.

Scientology (about 40,000 members) provides another modern example of religious foundation. L. Ron Hubbard originally published its doctrine as a space opera - but incorporated his new church in 1953 based on that reworked text. One of the major tenets of Scientology is that a human is an immortal alien spiritual being, termed a thetan, that is presently trapped on planet Earth in a physical "meat body."

Scientology has come under fire in recent years for running camps where unpaid followers serve those higher up the religious food chain, in some cases, for decades. In 1979-80, 12 high level Scientologists, including Hubbard's wife, were jailed for the largest infiltration of the US government by a non-governmental organization in history. The church employed over 5000 agents to infiltrate 136 government organizations.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 29, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
f*#k....

I thought someone was going to be offering to get rid of the religious (who can't keep it to themselves)....

instead its just another christians ain't so bad thread....


I still have no respect for someone just because they tell be they are a believer in one myth or another.....

I shouldn't expect respect for my deeply held beliefs of any imaginary anything...
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 29, 2014 - 06:30pm PT
Well over 200 religions have been founded worldwide since Joseph Smith first published his Book of Mormon - more than one a year, on average.

Some, like Mormonism, survive to become popular. Some don't.

Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Aug 29, 2014 - 07:28pm PT

Bottom Line:

Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proofs

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 29, 2014 - 07:33pm PT
Scrubbing bubbs..... opt for the enlargement procedure and they may flock back to worship the little nazi...
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 29, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
You know you could say that there are millions of new religions..

Every new Christian that comes into the fold, has different precepts than any other.

So you COULD call each one a new religion if you really wanted too.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
I shouldn't expect respect for my deeply held beliefs of any imaginary anything...

LOL... nothing question-begging about that!

If you have a pain, that is EXACTLY as "imaginary" as somebody else's "talk with God."

It is impossible in principle to "objectively measure" your pain. Your self-reporting that you are in pain is as "real" as it can get for anybody outside of you.

And if you want to start talking about brain scans, etc., etc., I would respond that such scans denote that some activity is taking place and that many (not even close to all) people reporting pain have similar brain activity. But so what. That observed brain activity is not equivalent to your sensation of pain.

Furthermore, people praying (in "discussion with God") also have similar brain activity as measured by scans. Does that mean that they really are in discussion with God?

If you say, yes, then game over. If you say, no, then your supposed pain is just as "imaginary."
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 29, 2014 - 10:02pm PT
Of course pain is imaginary. How else do you think morphine could work?

Sometimes amputees will have a sensation of a phantom limb. The sensation is very real, but the missing arm is not. And so it is with God.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Aug 29, 2014 - 10:41pm PT
Of course pain is imaginary.

Now we're getting somewhere. Of course, you haven't yet tumbled to the necessary implications of what you've just said.
Byran

climber
San Jose, CA
Aug 29, 2014 - 11:15pm PT
The implication that pain and God are both just "all in your head"? When you've got a headache, you take an Advil and the pain goes away. When you hear God speaking to you, you get back on your Loxapine and the voices go away. Seems pretty straightforward.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 30, 2014 - 12:15am PT
goddamn this is painful
Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Aug 30, 2014 - 12:43am PT
is the Honey Badger a Christian?

hell no,

Honey Badger don't give a sh#t about Jeeezus,

Honey Badger don't give a sh#t about anything,
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 30, 2014 - 08:36am PT
My wife says stupidity should be painful so there'd be less of it.

She also tells me that I have two ears and one mouth because I should talk half as much as I listen. ;-)
jstan

climber
Aug 30, 2014 - 10:11am PT
Don't let her get away.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 30, 2014 - 10:37am PT
Jstan, she a keeper; she's bonafide! Thirty five years and counting....
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 30, 2014 - 11:38am PT
I need to say that there is nothing wrong with Christianity.



[Click to View YouTube Video]


Because we all need to know this sh#t....

























































P.S. You kristians want me to take your sh#t seriously...?




If you want to be free.....

Just wait for the lord!!! Says so in this video!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
thebravecowboy

climber
strugglin' to make time to climb
Aug 30, 2014 - 12:16pm PT
^pure gold
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 30, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
I believe I'll live forever cuz WHY WOULD THE APOSTLES LIE ABOUT THAT???!!!

Airtight.

jstan

climber
Aug 30, 2014 - 05:15pm PT
Re: Katie

Can you imagine what it would be like to listen to that in your head 24x7?

The interpretation I am about to voice could well be entirely incorrect, but I am not averse to being wrong.

I think many people fear feeling alone but it seems to me this fear is stronger in females. I have seen this fear take a person over. It is most acute when no one will listen to and give support. Getting support is an activity often pursued after all. Katie can't find anyone who will listen to her, other than her computer. So we have something new here. The computer as a personal support vehicle. To make it more effective it needs to be programmed as a support robot.

Only a matter of time.

If we had only had this and one that also reported to another human, we might have avoided Sandy Hook.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Aug 31, 2014 - 12:27pm PT
Read an interesting op-ed piece this morning from The New York Times by Frank Bruni, Between Godliness and Godlessness, about Sam Harris and his new book, Waking Up.

http://nyti.ms/1tjPMLg
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 31, 2014 - 01:22pm PT
from Mark's link,

During my conversation with Harris, he observed that President Obama had recently ended his public remarks about the beheading of James Foley by the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, which wraps itself in religion, with a religious invocation: “May God bless and keep Jim’s memory, and may God bless the United States of America.” That struck Harris as odd and yet predictable, because in America, he said, God is the default vocabulary.

Harris should know that by being a default proves that we are not a christian nation. If we were, Obama would be STARTING his speeches with "All glory goes to our Father in heaven" and would continue the speech directing our activities from the lessons Jesus taught. Then Obama would end with a prayer of Thanks be to God, then bust out with a song of praise!

Instead Obama defualts with a white flag with a hope for a blessing.

Being under Grace blessings are apparent to those walking in faith.
jstan

climber
Aug 31, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
It's pretty clear now. Blu wants a theistic government. I have known for some time the US was becoming a third world nation. Did not occur to me our understanding of the world and its history was so poor we were also going to regress to the dark ages. Imagine what the Inquisition would have been like had it possessed an NSA and nuclear weapons.

Jstan, did you rent the movie "Her" starring Joaquin Phoenix?

Very hot today so I am putting off work. I looked at Her's trailer. Interesting but a little goopy.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 31, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
Mark's again,

Hardly. Harris is actually up to something more complicated and interesting than that. He’s asking a chicken-or-egg question too seldom broached publicly in America, where religion is such sacred and protected turf, where God is on our currency and at our inaugurals and in our pledge and sometimes written into legislation as a way to exempt the worshipful from dictates that apply to everyone else.

The question is this: Which comes first, the faith or the feeling of transcendence? Is the former really a rococo attempt to explain and romanticize the latter, rather than a bridge to it? Mightn’t religion be piggybacking on the pre-existing condition of spirituality, a lexicon grafted onto it, a narrative constructed to explain states of consciousness that have nothing to do with any covenant or creed?

We ALL share in experiencing faith and transcendence. Sam Harris is experiencing them in writing this book. Transcendence can't take place without faith in something. And faith is dead without works. Sam's faith is being substantiated in his opinion and the writing of this book. With the crystallization of his opinion to become his Truth, Transcendence will arrive.

The right answer to "Which comes first?". First, we must decide to who/where do we steer our faith.

Sam is trying to do everything a man with faith in Jesus the Christ would do, he's working hard to avoid putting a name to the face of his faith, when his title is obliviously anti-christ.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 31, 2014 - 02:39pm PT

It's pretty clear now. Blu wants a theistic government.

Clearly you haven't heard what i've said in the last 1000 posts!

If you read the bible you might understand that God's government doesn't work in man's world.

Man can't even fathom Nature's Laws. Nature demonstrates a negative is justified by a positive, and a positive by a negative. An equilibrium, a balance, a symmetry. Ying and Yang. Man's Law demonstrates a negative is justified with another negative. And a positive with another positive leading to unbalance, and a tipping of the scale.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 31, 2014 - 03:30pm PT
'God's government?'

It's pretty much a Qaddafi-style, "Love me or die" dictatorship of one, no?

No, that doesn't work all that well here on Earth.

BTW, it's yin and yang.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 31, 2014 - 03:54pm PT

It's pretty much a Qaddafi-style, "Love me or die" dictatorship of one, no?

No not in this universe. it's apparent by the fact that satin is running around.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Aug 31, 2014 - 04:22pm PT
Yeah. And have you seen what velour has been up to lately?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 31, 2014 - 04:56pm PT
Satin. Dat's da one witda wicked rings pahked arounit, right?
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Aug 31, 2014 - 06:22pm PT
Impossible to do.

Atheist can only run their mouths and say there's no God.

But if they were truly an atheist their heart would immediately stop.

Everything manifest in the material world is part parcel of God.

Not even blade of grass can move without God moving it first.

Atheist are stupid, ignorant and arrogant to the complete real facts.

Atheists only have incomplete facts which they "Religiously" spout ......

 Werner, the fact that I call myself an atheist... what have I spouted. Also, do you see anything you do as "spouting off" as well... or do your words just automatically mean more to the universe.
What have I spouted other than I believe there is no god....

I'm not totally sure how this has any effect on you whatsoever.... All I repeatedly ask is that you get your head out of make believe and stick to what you know to be true and leave the imaginary story telling to out next to the fire side.

You Christians think you know everything including the mind of god. To me, this is the hight of arrogance, but you continue to think of yourself as you wish.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Aug 31, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
if god doesnt exist, his mind is nothing, so Werner can accurately claim he knows the mind of god.
jstan

climber
Sep 1, 2014 - 07:34am PT
There are some things god could spare us that would be most appreciated.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Sep 1, 2014 - 09:42am PT
...God offers us Jesus!

But how do you know this?

There is nothing to substantiate that claim.

/seb'stanCHe,at/ verb provide evidence to support or prove the truth of.

/evedens/ noun the available body of facts ar information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

/fact/ noun a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 1, 2014 - 10:02am PT
no matter the topic, the lack of proof is all the proof some folks need.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Sep 1, 2014 - 10:04am PT
"You cannot reason a person out of something they were not reasoned into."
-Jonathan Swift
Norton

Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
Sep 1, 2014 - 10:09am PT
no matter the topic, the lack of proof is all the proof some folks need.

Ward is right

Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Proofs
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 1, 2014 - 10:17am PT
When god offers us cheeses, I might take him up on it.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 1, 2014 - 03:41pm PT

/fact/ noun a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts...

i've experienced, and witnessed how reading the words of the bible and praying in the name of Jesus can add to, and/or bring change to individuals lives.

This can even be seen through an MRI.

That's a Fact Jack!
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Sep 1, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
Whoa...big stretch. MRI's don't show ....oh, never mind.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 1, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
more factual evidence for prayer,

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104310443
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 1, 2014 - 04:53pm PT
Blue, There are lot of brain phenomena that can be seen on PET scans of the brain - the effects of drugs, meditation, thinking of gratitude, anger, sex, food, etc. - all trigger PET scan changes. For instance, acupuncture has some very interesting effects on PET scans that don't conform to sensory stimulation to the same region of the body; another is that going through the mental process of paying taxes stimulates the pleasure centers of the brain even when the subject may consciously resent the idea of paying them (may relate to some "hard wiring" around giving (increases survivability of the species?).

The changes you percieve are real to your experience and you may have observed these experiences to relate to behavior that you value. To assume those experiences to be due to direct intervention of Jesus may be your belief and you're welcome to it, but you cannot claim you have proof. That's not how science works. It is very common for people to generally assume that correlation is causation.

For instance, research shows, overall, families that have greater numbers of bathrooms in their homes have a higher percentage of family members with a higher education. Doesn't mean that adding a bathroom to your home will give your kids a greater chance of graduating from college!

Yes, there is a lot of science out there about prayer and it may be a valuable activity. The research does not prove the existence or action of anything except the directly observed phenomenon. That's how science works.

I did a very extensive review of the literature regarding the effects of fasting on physiology and the results of water fasting are quite compelling. I have observed the value of juice fasting on myself and patients for over 30 years of practice, but I have no proof because there isn't a body of published-peer reviewed studies out there. So when patients ask me about water fasting I can tell them there is compelling scientific evidence (still not enough to be proof) and on juice fasting I have extensive observation that indicates it is valuable, including making changes in physical exams and lab findings. But, juice fasting still has no compelling body of evidence or proof.

With all the scientific evidence supporting water fasting, the mechanism is still unknown and the causation of the observed benefits is unknown. So it is with prayer, from a scientific perspective we see evidence of the effect, we can infer a benefit, and we do not know the mechanism or causation from the scientific studies that have been done so far.

That doesn't mean prayer doesn't have value, but don't misrepresent the science to support your arguements.

Faith and belief are feelings and they don't have to have proof; they are what they are. Your faith and your beliefs are based on feelings you have had and the stuff you've made up to make sense of them. Someone else having same feelings will make up some other interpretation about their experience based upon the knowledge, language, and culture they have to interpret it all through. Which one is right? Which one knows the truth with a capital T? Ever hear about the Tower of Babel?

I have mystical beliefs that I hold that are outside of my "science mind" and I don't expect anyone else to believe them. Don't feel the need; not important.

There is the sh#t we make up and the stuff we say and do. Some people are willing to kill others if the other doesn't believe the sh#t they make up. Islamic fundamentalism? The Inquisition and witch trials?

We could focus more on what we say and do and on the observable effects of those toward beneficial outcomes.

Or, as the Dalai Lama says, "If you want to make others happy, practice compassion; if you want to make yourself happy, practice compassion.

Oh, and there was that other guy who was supposed to have said, "By their fruits ye shall know them."
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 1, 2014 - 06:25pm PT
I have to ask.... How am I not supposed to spew about xristianity....


When it looks like this?

[Click to View YouTube Video]



So.... I know nobody really expects to be given respect automatic or anything.... especially on this board... But why is it that I get the feeling that people expect something when they mention their religion to me....
how is it that I am supposed to automatically respect those who call themselves devoted to one religion or another....
When I know that they can harbor the same feelings that result in this video... sh#t like this happen every frickin day in America.... America!!!!
Where we say we will fight to the death anyone who will try to take any of that freedom from us....
We say everybody is free....

.... Unless you're gay.

Then we real Americans can turn on you like a band of hyenas and are willing to treat you with all the respect of a good kill.

Mark - you've already done too much.... leave the troll....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 1, 2014 - 06:42pm PT

That doesn't mean prayer doesn't have value, but don't misrepresent the science to support your arguements.

Nor was my intent toward this insinuation. i was merely pointing the scientist to the facts that are out there. Where that path takes them only God can predict. That is my compassion
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 1, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
the beneficial mechanism of water fasting is very like the killing off of old T cells - thus spurring the regeneration of new ones. This should help with many auto immune disorders.

Losing weight from fasting does, too. Fewer inflammatories.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Sep 1, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
i've experienced, and witnessed how reading the words of the bible and praying in the name of Jesus can add to, and/or bring change to individuals lives.

The same could be experienced or measured in ones mood or brain activity whilst a subject was reading any such self help or hope inspiring text. That doesn't make said text to be non-fiction. Exciting or motivating perhaps, but not necessarily factual.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 1, 2014 - 08:16pm PT
Christians are sinning when they hate instead of love people, including gay people, and the huge majority of Christians are aware of that

 Xtians have an option to attempt to win me over. Turn this awareness you mentioned into tangible change on the ground across the country.... Oh, I know, that's too much to ask, you are only one.. it can't be done... No biggy.... You just have to navigate my meaningless hate until I die... Then it'll be like when the teacher left the room for a long period of time and you got to run the room!!!

Sadly, since its a free country, anyone can call themselves a Christian, and anyone can choose to feel hate instead of love toward their fellow man

 Suffer my wrath.... I do live in a free country.... I can choose to feel hate toward the xtians and love for my fellow human as well....

Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 1, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
Tvash, What's going on with the fasting is pretty complex. Here is the article Intermittent Fasting, Hormesis, and Delayed Aging
http://www.theelementsofhealth.com/resources/articles/articles-supplements-and/intermittent_fasting.pdf
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2014 - 12:59am PT

You just have to navigate my meaningless hate until I die...

Urs is not meaningless! Your extremely negative opinion against what these 'christians' attitude is toward their homosexual son comes from your life-long experienced truths that don't jive with theirs. So when is taking a stand meaningless? Don't you think the parents in that video could have been reacting from their own life-long experienced truths? Regardless of where you'alls opinion comes from, standing-up for something is a big meaningful part of life,IMO.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 2, 2014 - 08:42am PT
That caloric restriction article REALLY jumps the shark quite a bit. Caloric restriction hasn't been adequately tested in humans, and has been tested in only a few other species, with mixed results.

There are some serious negative results if the human self-experimenter gets it wrong - including getting dumber, triggering eating disorders, and depression.

As for the health benefits of fasting, what meager experimental data we have is even less compelling.

On an anecdotal basis, my geneticist friend fasts once a week for a day to keep his gout in check - and he claims that helps considerably. He wouldn't fast if he didn't suffer from gout, however.

Tracking calories taken in and burned, and nutrients with a cell phone app is very useful for a while to learn the ropes, but once habits are in place (food choices, portion sizes, exercise plan), such an app should no longer be necessary.

My philosophy of eating is - research and develop good food buying (if it's not in the house, you won't eat it) and eating habits. Whole foods, colorful meals, lots of growing things, portion control, minimal processed foods.

And GBOMBS: (greens, beans, onions, mushrooms, berries, seeds (incl. nuts).

Oh, and give up alcohol if you're fat. Duh.

People who struggle with weight gain are often prone to develop weird, unsustainable habits and fad diets, and lets face it, fasting is one of those until we know a lot more about it (scientifically speaking, of course). Many focus on diet alone - and avoid exercise. That's always a mistake.

The less a person focuses on diet and exercise - ie, the more healthy habits become a normal routine, the more likely they'll be able to maintain a healthy weight. I'm really not sure fasting for people not afflicted with something unusual, like gout, is much of a viable option. It smacks of just another silver bullet - and therefore another avoidance strategy to the solution we've long known works - healthy diet and exercise.
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:06am PT
Atheists are stupid.

God manefestates in the material world to the gross materialists and atheists in the form of "Time".

No one can defeat "Time" and "Time" is proven to be Supreme.

Stupid atheists .....
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:07am PT
Urs is not meaningless!....So when is taking a stand meaningless?...

This is true and insightful.

I suppose ya don't have to hate people but being passionate about the injustice caused by their actions (beating their gay son, voting republican, etc.) is far more respectable than standing by.
Religion mixing into politics constitutes a moral emergency at this point in our country. There should be more demonstrations against such hypocrisy.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:10am PT
"manifestates"

That's some real vocabularical knowledgement!
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:19am PT
Tvash, I am assuming you didn't get to the five pages of citations of peer-reviewed articles from PubMed.

We do have populations that give us a good idea of the benefits caloric restriction and periodic fasting - Blue Zones, especially the Sardinian population.

There was in interesting piece in The New York Times a while back - The Island Where People Forget To Die
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/28/magazine/the-island-where-people-forget-to-die.html?pagewanted=all
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:35am PT
Fasting is a fad pushed heavily by the supplements industry (this may be a recycling of the old science fiction idea of taking a 'food pill' as an efficient substitute for eating) - which, as any phone app calorie/nutrient counter knows, is a complete and utter naturopathy-esque scam. A normal diet gives you way more of the RDA of required nutrients, with very few exceptions, most people need.

Omega 3s, vitamin D, maaaaybe joint support, and calcium/iron for some women, perhaps. The rest is unsupported hooey - but, like religion, it does make a ton of coin.

Sure, there are islands where people live longer. Those with an agenda are quick to claim causality for their product de jour - red wine, herbs, blah blah, but the real cause of such anomalies is good ole stochastic genetic drift that particularly effects smaller, isolated populations - of any species, including our own. In such cases, the salient genetic variation manifests itself in outlier levels of longevity.

Ever wonder why this always seems to happen on islands where people don't go to and fro much?

Classic conditions for stochastic genetic drift. This is the very same mechanism that produces unique species on remote islands (Galapagos, anyone?) - it works within species to produce outlier genetic traits as well.

Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 2, 2014 - 11:49am PT

you truly love ALL your fellow men, but you hate all xtians?

 This is factually inaccurate, but in general YES.
I think everyone is decent.... until I find out they are religious and then they tend to repulse me.
I liken it to coming in contact with a distinctly foul odor… It repulses, so I get away from it.


Your extremely negative opinion against what these 'christians' attitude is toward their homosexual son comes from your life-long experienced truths that don't jive with theirs.

 Again, f*#k off.
How is this statement not a clear indication of your ignorance of not only me, but my post, the video and all the players in it. You will be able to clearly show, given all that I have written on the ST Forum
Take another look and this time try to take yourself and your views on everything out of the equation.
So when is taking a stand meaningless?

 when doing so results in effecting nothing: No change = no change no matter how I look at it.

Don't you think the parents in that video could have been reacting from their own life-long experienced truths?

 half of which has been spent under the delusion that a god says anything to them.... without producing a shred of evidence other than "you'll have to take my word for it". Pathetic. We wouldn't believe a criminal, I won't believe you and the incredible claims.

Regardless of where you'alls opinion comes from, standing-up for something is a big meaningful part of life,IMO.

 Unless a xtian decides to announce it as the devils work? Then all the xtians have to get get behind stopping it....

You see, in the xtians world there is still a god and a devil... like every story book every written... good guy bad guy, black white







Any ignoramus who thinks that god manifestates to all mankind by way of “Time” is clearly up their own ass with their own head.



Your ignorance manifestates in ludicrous statements pronounced here on the topo....
No one can defeat "Time" and "Time" is proven to be Supreme.


 WTF is that? Who says time is supreme? Where's the proof? Proof of what? That's right, it's just a feeling you have that you are very sure of. At the very best this is an observation... Time.... See?

Ok, you are a genius in your own mind, we should all bow to you, as you have knowledge that everyone else around you doesn't have a clue unless they happen to agree with your xtian standards

This is what that furitcake up there mentioned



I suppose ya don't have to hate people but being passionate about the injustice caused by their actions (beating their gay son, voting republican, etc.) is far more respectable than standing by.

 and making apologies for the xtians is just as shameful as the shameful xtians doing the beating of the gays....
I feel that if I don't point out that you xtians are hypocrites, every one of you, if you are not calling your more extreme xtians for being cowardly and behaving like less than human beings...


But I already know what I can expect from you....





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not a thing!!!!! Just like the pope.... he could change things.... he chooses not to.... f*#k him then....
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2014 - 01:13pm PT
LOL

Jingy = meltdown .....
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Sep 2, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
I think everyone is decent.... until I find out they are religious and then they tend to repulse me.
I liken it to coming in contact with a could odor… It’s repulses, so I get away from them
Again, f*#k off.

AWESOME
Jingy, I like your style.
timy

Sport climber
Durango
Sep 2, 2014 - 02:00pm PT
^^^^
You must be one of those "real christians" !!!!!!!!

Looking good man!!!!!!!
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
little timy

Just for you ...

Farouk and me are not real Christians.

I've never even read the Bible to begin with.

But!!!! we can spot a anti religious nutcase from miles away such as you and poor Jingy .........
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
Sep 2, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
ah ha....!!!!

LOL



Too funny!!!


You fools think that was a meltdown?

That was a dude who took a few minutes to ponder then respond to a few arrogant posts by Christianx who don't like my brand of religion or lack thereof.

Poor xtians.....





LOL




Poor.... poor.... xtians




Oh, look Edit:

Oh look!!!!!

Werner found a friend in stupid!!!

How quaint.... how fitting.... what a fitting pair..... a pair that fit together....


like a couple of balls in a sack.. of sorts....


I've never even read the Bible to begin with.

 You mean you just make all this up from thin air like all the other xtians? You really are a god!
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:07pm PT
Fasting is a fad pushed heavily by the supplements industry

Really? If you drink bottled water during a weekly fast of 16-36 hours the companies making money are most likely Nestles and Coca Cola. In that fasting has a long tradition in cultures around the world it is hardly a fad, though some marketing around the practice might be.

A normal diet gives you way more of the RDA of required nutrients, with very few exceptions, most people need.

Maybe, though RDA in actuality is a guesstimate. The RDA for iodine is 150mcg/.15mg. The average intake in Japan is 12.5mg because of all the seaweed and seafood they eat. They also live longer and have less degenerative diseases than we do, including thyroid disease, heart disease, and cancer. Some epidemiologists believe it is in part because of their iodine intake.

Exposure to plastics, pesticides, solvents, aldehydes, toxic metals and other man made agents from the environment increases the need for some nutrients to process and eliminate and protect you from them. Food refining and soil depletion effect nutrient density. The fortification of foods after the fact replaces naturally ocurring food form of nutrients with synthetics which are not the same creature as he original. An example here would be vitamin B1/thiamin where the natural form is thiamin pyrophosphate and the synthetic is thiamin hydrochloride.

Genetic faults impair utilization of some vitamins and minerals and can create the need for supplementation to upregulate the activity associated with these nutrients. These genetic faults are surprisingly common especially in chronically sick populations. I have to take 4 times the RDA of zinc and have since my teens when I suffered ulcerative colitis, debilitating allergies, recurring infections, ADD, and OCD. The zinc solves it all because it addresses weaknesses in my genetic constitution that ihibit effective utilization of zinc. MTHFR C677T and A1298C gene mutations are suprisingly common and impair conversion of dietary folic acid to the metabolically active form methylfolate. People who have this genetic polymorphism suffer from higher rates of heart disease, autoimmune and inflammatory diseases, depression, ADD, anxiety, and hormonal imbalances than the general population. By testing their methylation system and supplementing with the nutrients indicated for them (methylfolate, B12, B15, glycine, serine, phosphorylated B6, selenium, and the amino acids, cysteine and methionine) their health is dramatically improved as measured by physical exam parameters and lab testing and you typically are able to get them off a long list of drugs that had been used to manage their symptoms.

Omega 3s, vitamin D, maaaaybe joint support, and calcium/iron for some women, perhaps. The rest is unsupported hooey - but, like religion, it does make a ton of coin.

Tvash, You show your lack of knowledge about biochemistry and clinical nutrition with the above stance. The hooey actually has support; get on pubmed and take a look around. A lot of that hooey, including the fasting, normalizes physical and laboratory findings daily in my practice. The gold standard conventional medicine metrics strongly suggest a lot of that hooey....................works.

It is true that there are unscrupulous people selling lies about nutriton (This is true also true about the pharmaceutical industry - read The Truth About the Drug Companies: How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It by Marcia Angell, MD and past editor in chief for The New England Journal of Medicine.)

Sure, there are islands where people live longer. Those with an agenda are quick to claim causality for their product de jour - red wine, herbs, blah blah, but the real cause of such anomalies is good ole stochastic genetic drift

This might account for some of the outcomes in these populations, but the model is undermined by the consistent observation that people from these groups cease to enjoy the health and longevity of their family members when they leave to live in other environments and cultures. Originally, researchers looked for some singular magic potion (wine, olives, fish, nuts, etc.) that created the good health and longevity in certain populations. Now researchers are pretty much in agreement that the benefits come from a number of factors.

Tvash, I get that you have a problem with people that misquote, misconstrue, and misrepresent research to manipulate others. That behavior is indefensible. Snake oil salesmen have been around forever and they come in all forms. Calling them out is a good thing. Be passionate about it, but stay ratonal at the same time - it maintains credibility and makes you more effective.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Sep 2, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
Tvash believes nothing, cept his pocket calculator
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 3, 2014 - 07:51am PT
I believe in love.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Sep 3, 2014 - 08:05am PT
Good choice, Tvash!
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 13, 2014 - 11:28am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

BBA

climber
OF
Sep 13, 2014 - 01:42pm PT
"I offer an alternative to mass spewing about Christianity"

where would i find that thread?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Sep 14, 2014 - 09:02am PT
All fanatical myth worshiping leads to the likes of the SAND Nig's That are Today cutting
Off good god feeling peoples(Christian s) heads!
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