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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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Such jury instruction already happen.
Who decides who is 'super guilty' versus just 'guilty'? There is only one process here. Innocents who were thought to be 'super guilty' of heinous crimes have been executed, so there's that argument out the window.
Death is final. Until we have a system which executes no innocents - which will be never - we should not use the death penalty.
I have other objections, but this one is all any moral person should require to oppose the death penalty.
Such opposition is very often framed as either being callous towards survivors and victims or coddling murderers - both of which are ridiculous and disingenuous on their face.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2014 - 05:34pm PT
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Death is final.
First mistake of the western stupid consciousness .....
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 24, 2014 - 06:33pm PT
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blahblah posted Tvash, it is true that no "omniscient movie narrator is going to step in and call it" and there is no way to ensure there will be a zero percent error rate.
Then to advocate for or evenly passively permit capital punishment you have to be complicit in a justice system that inevitably carries out grave, irreconcilable injustices. There is literally no moral way to acknowledge what you have already stated and also execute someone through our imperfect system. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the huge issues with race and class and the imposition of the death penalty.
Dave posted I personally don't think the death penalty is cruel. I've got no problem executing those who are truly guilty of heinous crimes. I'd throw the switch myself on someone who really did commit murder.
"Really did" by whose reckoning?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 24, 2014 - 06:39pm PT
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Since Ron doesn't read before posting I will quote myself:
These laypeople insisting that he was "sleeping because I heard him snoring" have literally no idea what they're talking about. Snoring is a sign of a compromised airway, not sleep. Additionally, chemically induced "sleep" does not ensure a lack of suffering. If he was opening and closing his mouth on his own, as a journalist who witnessed the event described, he was not very well sedated.
I deal with chemically induced sleep and compromised airways all day every day, Ron. "He was snoring" is proof of nothing.
Bothced my arse, the bastid is dead is he not?
Along with any evidence of your humanity.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 24, 2014 - 06:46pm PT
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In 2013, 19 of the world's 195 independent countries carried out executions. Does everyone here feel privileged to be in the elite 10% along with North Korea, Somalia, China, Saudi Arabia et al?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2014 - 06:48pm PT
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It's not our problem if the rest of the world places a lower value on innocent life than the U.S.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Jul 24, 2014 - 06:51pm PT
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Not sure, but the firing squad seems better,
If we're gonna continue to do it.
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SalNichols
Big Wall climber
Richmond, CA
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Jul 24, 2014 - 07:00pm PT
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You guys do realize, (in the link I posted), that the majority of the executed are WHITE? Don't let the facts get in your way now.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 24, 2014 - 07:07pm PT
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Ron....IF the death penalty were equitable (which it never will be) and IF henious white collar crimes were eligible for it, I might be swayed to join those other paragons of democracy and freedom ( Nigeria, Somalia, the Sudan, China, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Guyana, Yemen) in administering the death penalty. 2013 was another execution free year for Europe, but everybody knows how barbaric and backward they are.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 24, 2014 - 07:21pm PT
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I rest my case.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 24, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
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In 2013, 19 of the world's 195 independent countries carried out executions. Does everyone here feel privileged to be in the elite 10% along with North Korea, Somalia, China, Saudi Arabia et al?
Interesting that you "forgot" to include those awful savages, the Japanese, in your list.
And other countries, such as Brazil, don't have the death penalty, but they send police death squads out to dispatch a certain type of miscreant. Should we emulate them too, if they are so enlightened?
The Euros have their own history, including (in some cases) a history of fascist regimes that murdered huge numbers of their own citizens.
We can evaluate the pros and cons of death penalty (and there are absolutely cons, including the irreversibility discussed above) without having to copycat the Euros.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 24, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
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It takes how long to run all the endless appeals for murderers? This is a failed system that has been rigged to prolong the lives of killers and sour the American people on state executions---all against the stated will of the American people and justice to the families of the victims.
Really? Inasmuch as this is handled at the state level, and we have 50 states, you mean that the anti-DP people are so powerful in each and every state, that they produce this result?
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overwatch
climber
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Jul 24, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
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No prolonging in Texas or Florida
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jul 25, 2014 - 06:24am PT
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The death penalty is unfairly applied? Problem with the law itself or the way it is applied? If it was applied fairly would you still be against it? Can it be applied fairly?
Innocent people are executed? I assume that there is some percentage of people convicted for assault that are innocent. Would anyone say that the law against assault should be repealed? Of course someone unfairly convicted of a crime but not executed can get some of his/her life back.
The death penalty is cruel and unusual? All punishments are, to some degree, so the basis of that argument is a little weak. Of course we make judgments on what is cruel and what isn't but the disagreement about the death penalty shows how difficult it is to reach consensus about the definition of cruel and unusual and there are a lot of factors to consider.
I'm totally against the death penalty because the underpinning of it is anger and revenge. Those are very understandable reactions, but the laws and justice system are not intended to apply revenge or give us emotional satisfaction.
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beaner
Social climber
Maine
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Jul 25, 2014 - 08:40am PT
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Should we build another 10,000 prisons for such? And pay another 8% in taxes to house and feed the humanity-less humans that commit horrendous murders?
First, the number of people executed every year is quote low and does not make a dent in prison overcrowding problems.
Second, if we stopped locking people up for simple possession of drugs, and started treating our mentally ill rather than wait until they become criminals and lock them up, we would have plenty of space and money to house violent criminals for life. In fact, we would be able to close prisons.
There is no way to guarantee an innocent person will not be executed (and statistics on false conviction rates tell us it is a certainty that it has happened). It also does not appear to be a deterrent, it ends up costing more than housing an inmate for life because of the legal costs, and its constitutionality is questionable. The death penalty is a failure all around. If you continue to support it either you haven't given it any serious thought or you are too stupid to realize that it makes little practical sense.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 25, 2014 - 08:41am PT
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And other countries, such as Brazil, don't have the death penalty, but they send police death squads out to dispatch a certain type of miscreant. Should we emulate them too, if they are so enlightened?
"And other countries, such as Brazil, don't have the death penalty, but they send police death squads out to dispatch a certain type of miscreant. Should we emulate them too, if they are so enlightened?'"
Oh yes, we MUST emulate Brazil as a requirement for ending the death penalty. Excellent point.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 25, 2014 - 08:45am PT
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"I'm totally against the death penalty because the underpinning of it is anger and revenge. Those are very understandable reactions, but the laws and justice system are not intended to apply revenge or give us emotional satisfaction."
???
Laws are passed and enforced by humans. The motivations behind them are all over the map, but certainly include the above considerations. Revenge? Read this thread. That's arguably motivation number one.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Jul 25, 2014 - 08:56am PT
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"You guys do realize, (in the link I posted), that the majority of the executed are WHITE? Don't let the facts get in your way now."
i'm so glad you brought that up.
Since 1976, the ratio of black executed (34%) relative to their portion of our population (12%) has been 3x. This 3x mirrors the overall racial bias against blacks across the criminal justice system - arrest rates, conviction rates, harshness of sentencing, denial of bail.
The percentage of whites has been a bare majority (56%). Given that whites are well over 60% of the population…
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jul 25, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
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Revenge? Read this thread. That's arguably motivation number one.
I thought was I wrote was clear, perhaps not. That is my objection to the death penalty - that the reasons for its existence and use seem to be anger and revenge, and laws and the justice system cannot and should not be motivated by those feelings or any other type of emotional satisfaction.
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