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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Jul 13, 2014 - 07:00am PT
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There are horses for courses, and that surely applies to rope choices as well. The reepschnur system no doubt works great on some routes but could be a nightmare on others -- looks a lot more likely to hang up or pull rocks down on ledgy terrain, for instance.
I prefaced my comment upthread by mentioning one kind of routes I do, where a half/twin and EDK system seems flexible and efficient. Tag line systems solve a different set of problems that could be crucial on other routes -- there's no general "best."
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 13, 2014 - 09:50am PT
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How Clint describes using a tag line is how every climber I've ever met uses a tag line. The biner block thing posted above looks like it would get stuck on a rap down a featureless slab, yet I see it recommended online all the time. Weird.
Not weird---a different situation. Clint uses a tag line that is still thick enough to include as one of the two rappel strands. But some folks use a much thinner rope (the reepschnur), maybe a 5.5mm static line. In this system, the rappel is on a single strand, the main climbing rope and the tag line is only used to pull down the main rope.
The classical reepschnur system depends on the knot joining the the reepschnur and the main line jamming in the rings, and this has been the source of fatal accidents when the knot pulls through. In another thread, Clint posted a picture illustrating that seven out of ten Yosemite rap anchors with rings would allow such a knot to pass through, in some cases with difficulty, if the main rope is in the 9mm category.
In order to make such rappels safe, climbers and canyoneers add the loop and carabiner combinations posted by D'Wolf above. But with the rap rings one finds on routes, these methods still have the problem that the knot ends up jamming in the rings. It doesn't pull through, but it gets stuck and makes the pulldown much harder and maybe impossible. The simple solution is to change the position of the carabiner, attaching it with a clove hitch, so that the blocking action is accomplished by the carabiner, which of course is not going to wedge in the rings. The Fish site has a picture of the "correct" set-up
except that I think most climbers would want a locking carabiner for this particular blocking function.
As for whether this system is prone to hanging up, it is hard to say, but the evidence I know suggests no. Systems with an installed carabiner like this are used not only for reepschnur rappels but also for people who want to rappel with their Grigris, so they get used a fair amount. I've never heard of any particular hanging problems attributed to the carabiner, and the fact that the carabiner is guided down by the main strand probably means it will stay out of trouble.
A more realistic source of concern is that the carabiner will add friction to the rappel pull, which is already hampered by having to tug on a very thin line.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 13, 2014 - 10:04am PT
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^^^...and leaves you many pitches up with no lead line in your control.
It's like the show "I Shouldn't Be Alive" every time the subject ditches an essential supply to lighten their load, and I'm like, "Noooooo..." 'cause like my favorite comedian Mike Birbiglia says, "I'm in the future too."
Good trick when one of the ropes has shots, rapping on a gri gri (with some useable rope in hand), or unforeseen pickles though.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 13, 2014 - 10:43am PT
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^^^...and leaves you many pitches up with no lead line in your control.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I've continually argued that the reepschnur method is an inferior option. All I was doing above was (I hope) helping to straighten out how best to do it.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Jul 13, 2014 - 11:01am PT
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I thought your post great! Just tacking onto it my own #1 reason to avoid it if possible/banging that drum.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 15, 2014 - 10:13am PT
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To cycle back to my post on some of the advantages of half ropes, there are significant advantages which often seem not to make the laundry lists.
Here is an example illustrating the potential utility of half ropes on granite (where everyone says you don't need them). The point is that you don't necessarily have to have horizontal strata to have occasion to place two pieces at the same level but too far apart for effective slinging. And if the gear is small, as it is on this pitch, then the ability to add to the pro is a significant safety enhancement.
What I've found is that folks who are used to single ropes may not even see placement possibilities like this, which is pretty straightforward, not to mention more complex examples, because such placement arrangements aren't practical with the single rope they are used to, and their "protection vision" has developed in accordance with the system they use all the time. The fact that half ropes can significantly expand and improve protection tends to be buried in the claims that half ropes cut down on drag, with people typically assuming that the same protection is going to be used either way and a shoulder-length sling or two will reduce the drag as well as the half ropes do.
Pete Whittaker (one of the WideBoyz) on Dreadline, E9 6c (5.11b?), Sweden. A hard move at the top comes with near-groundfall potential: the gear better not pull!
Half ropes aren't exactly a new idea: Comici in 1933 breaking some of the rules that hadn't been written yet...
Shot from Marlow post to Dolomites thread.
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tb.in.sf
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:48am PT
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I will weigh in on the "go half rope!" side - SJ implies Yosemite which is where they work so well.
I learned about them ~20 years ago doing trad routes in the valley with a friend who swore by them (Astroman-level climber). They're the go-to most of the time.
I'd say think through your typical climb and whether halfs would help. I am a moderate, occasional climber, almost always doing from two to Royal-Arches pitches with 2 or 3 climbers. Always trad and almost always rapping off. Most of the belays are ledges/good, rarely hanging.
Halfs are perfect for this kind of climbing. You have your full-rap rope with you, never have to carry another one. Who doesn't hate carrying a rope? Setting an equalized anchor is super-fast because most of the time you can clove hitch the ropes to your pieces and equalize through your harness. That's a huge time-saver on a long route like E.Buttress. Three minutes saved at each anchor can mean the difference between getting off in daylight. And on easier pitches, with 3, the two seconds can climb at the same time...also a big time saver.
A downside not mentioned yet is heat on a rap; you'll probably rap a bit faster than on a 10.5 or 11 and thinner ropes take more effort to regulate. I ended up carrying gloves for this, even a chunky belay device can get too hot to touch. Another downside is that the thinner rope is more prone to rope-sucking cracks. Several near-epics sorting that issue out on GPA, Royal Arches; you just need to be more careful pulling ropes on a rap.
And yes the wandering, traverse protection, etc. stuff too. And a possibly shorter fall if you fall while clipping your next piece (you don't have slack in the rope attached to your last piece, as you do when clipping a single rope). Though fall distance is longer because of higher stretch so that might balance out.
The belay isn't hard to figure out with a little practice. During lead you are taking in one while belaying in the other...it becomes second nature. Two followers can come up at the same time.
This may sound obvious but you have to buy two colors. For awhile REI sold half ropes in only one color! Up red. No, the other red.
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wotan
Trad climber
Ballard
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Jul 16, 2014 - 10:51am PT
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I use a tag line (7mm static)that I keep it in a rope bag for tossing. carry up the tag line in small followers pack, only pull it out when rapping. use a tibloc and large biner on tag line to pull- much easier on hands. while one person pulls the other stuffs tag line in bag. back up EDK with 2nd EDK up tight. Been using this system for 7 years? and prefer it over double ropes that I used a lot in past.
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Mr. Rogers
climber
The Land of Make-Believe
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Jul 16, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
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One issue that has not been brought up, and/or has been stated incorrectly, is the difference in impact force of a half-rope versus a single rope. In short, there is not one (or it may be worse for half-ropes).
Sure, the half-rope has a published lower impact force, but that's because it is tested differently from a single rope!
Will Gadd (with the assistance of J.Ewing from Sterling) looked into this a while back. This is one of his posts on the topic:
http://willgadd.com/single-and-half-rope-impact-forces-data/
Also, I have always been told to never clip half-ropes as twins -- that is, both ropes into the same piece of protection. This is because half-ropes are tested to catch a fall individually and are designed to stretch and absorb force as a single line. If you clip them as doubles, then you are effectively increasing the impact force and making for a harder (or even dangerous) catch.
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Ernest
Trad climber
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Jul 16, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
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Learned to climb over here - did the single and tag line routine when 2-rope rappels were required. Then spent 3 years in the UK where half ropes are the norm on almost any trad line. Now that I'm back I climb on singles unless there's a need for a 2-rope rappel or it's a really wandering route where rope drag is a problem and then I break out the half ropes. I'll never, ever go back to a tag line....way too many advantages to half ropes.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Jul 16, 2014 - 09:19pm PT
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Robert
Trad climber
San Mateo, CA
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Jul 16, 2014 - 11:01pm PT
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I have never understood why one would lead with a single and trail a 2nd rope for rapelling. If you have it, you might as well use it.
Never mind all the other advantages of 2 half ropes.
And all that part of 2 half ropes being more complex: it's not. I have tied in with a belayer who has never belayed with 2 half ropes many a time, and after a minute they got it.
One advantage of two half ropes that I don't think has been mentioned above:
If your second is hanging over the roof, can't get up, etc. it is much easier to aid up on 2 half ropes for the 2nd. prussik up on rope #1, while the leader pulls up the slack on #2.
To me it's about "old habits die hard". Or "Americans say aluminum, the rest of the (English) world says aluminium".
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 17, 2014 - 12:03am PT
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This is a bit arcane, but if the party is using halfs or twins and the belayer is using a guide plate, then the second can ascend with no knots or gear of any sort. The basic idea is that the second ties foot loops in each strand, and then the belayer alternating takes up an unweighted foot loop while the second is weighting the other foot loop. Of course, the foot loops have to be tied, but this isn't hard. The belayer lowers one strand while blocking the other and the second ties a foot loop in that and stands on it; the process can now be repeated with the other strand.
The plate in question has to allow one strand to be taken in and paid out while the other strand is weighted. With some plates and rope combinations, this might not work.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 17, 2014 - 01:11am PT
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Edelrid is making it harder for me to heap scorn on the thin tagline. They are coming out with a 6.5mm tagline that will hold two UIAA falls. So if the fit hits the shan and your ropes hang after pulling, you can lead back up on the tagline with a reasonable expectation of not dying if you fall.
Of course, your belayer will have to have something that can be used to belay with a 6.5mm line, otherwise they won't be able to hold that fall, and you won't want to let that piece of thread run over a sharp edge anywhere. Still, you're a lot better off with this rope than with an ordinary reepschnur---if the rap hangs with that, you're just a dumb tourist stuck half way up a cliff waiting for the helicopter to winch you off.
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duncan
climber
London, UK
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Jul 17, 2014 - 02:12am PT
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belayer needs serious rope management skills to be anything other than a hinderence.
Even a highly experience belayer can give a better belay with a single than doubbles in most situations.
Never felt this to be the case, it's no harder than using a manual gearbox versus an automatic.
...ah, I see the flaw in my arguement.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jul 17, 2014 - 02:58am PT
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As I mentioned up thread any multi pitch that requires two ropes for decent and I use half ropes. I also use half twins (rated for both) ice floss for all multi pitch winter climbing. I can't see myself being comfortable on a cliff like Canon without 2 reasonably beefy ropes.
That being said climbing on a single rope is a Lot less work and hassel. This becomes evident when you get home from a road trip where you have been useing doubbles exclusivly for a week or so and you go cragging with a single. Wow this is liberating! and yes you Britts are effin neurotic bringing 120m of rope to a 20m crag. And yes I have cragged numerous times with doubbles.. Even spurt climbed at Rumny with doubbles and a helmet. talk about drawing stares! wow look at the trad bumblies wanking arround on that 50ft 5.10 with 400ft of rope and a bunch of crap hanging on the back of their harnesses.. these days I am smart enough to use a single sport climbing and cragging but I do still wear my lid;)
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stefano607518
Trad climber
italy/austria/switzerland
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Jul 18, 2014 - 12:17am PT
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half ropes are very good in protecting the second on traversing as on rope cha be used on the traverse (clipped on pro) and the second is used (clipped on pro) just after normally slightly above to nicely protect the second.
Plus rappelling with 2 half is very easy and nice
plus in the end what you carry in term of waight is similar to the single plus a haul line or so...
you can climb as a team of 3 ;-) (very good if you are a guide.....)
redoundancy (if that matter...)
if one rope get stuck (jamming in corner crack or so...rare but it happen)
the other can be used normally up to the jamming point...else the second need to clear the rope by ascending it with a prusik or else.
here in the dolomites on clissical routes half ropes are a must/norm
sigle is somethimes used on bolted routes from where you walk off
me peronally 2x60m half ropes (thiny 8.2 or so)
light, durable and each of the climber carry one on the approach/descent
gretz fro the alps
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Rustie
climber
Coeur d\\\\\\\'Alene
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Jul 20, 2014 - 10:40am PT
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A very learned forum. Not much to debate.
A couple of ponderings: seeing you can rap full length, it seems overkill to use 2 very long ropes for trad -- just more to carry and coil. 150 footers were good for most things and 165ft / 50m seems pretty adequate now? Usually run out of gear anyway.
Buying such a "short" rope is not easy in these enlightened times.......
It is nice to see some more beefy double ropes out there -- more like the old 9mm. Using a very thin separated rope for a long section does get a bit thought provoking.
When thinking about rapping on a thinner dynamic rope, one should maybe ponder the fate of John Harlin Senior -- that was an 8.5mm I believe.
While doubles give a nice long rap they do need care with knot management. I used to use a "side fig8" but find it less nervy to use a simple "side overhand" -- with another one on top for peace of mind. It seems to run as high and clean as ever.
it's true that the Doubles Club is a somewhat select group. Discriminating connoisseurs?
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howie doin'
climber
Big Pine, CA
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Jul 20, 2014 - 02:14pm PT
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"What I use is..."
"Half ropes are used by [insert ethnicity or type of climber here]"
"Two skinny ropes are safer from cutting..."
There is some valid info and personal perspective on this thread, but I have not seen such a collection of anecdotal technical climbing misinformation in a very long time. There is a lot of "expert halo" going on here and I hope that people new to this and using this thread as a resource can recognize that. If you are looking at what rope systems to use: consider looking at the venue, the climbing medium (rock type/snow/ice), the nature of the climb, type of protection, coarseness and sharpness of the terrain, pendulum potential, the big picture context, the importance of weight, the importance of rope cut resistance, the competence of climbers/belayers, the options for descent and self-rescue, the weather forecast, and other considerations/contingencies. It helps to have a quiver of rope configurations for a variety of likely scenarios, then you can choose accordingly. If you can only afford to buy 1 or 2 ropes then look at your own predicted uses and try to best accommodate them. Don't trust generalized recommendations of one system over another. All of them can be most effective in specific circumstances. For example, the Reepschnur using a small diameter pull cord (or what we have called a "jammed knot" in this part of the world) can be a good option in some cases and I am glad to see that this was brought up earlier in the thread. In some cases, though it is clearly not an advisable way to go. It would be good if climbers could just all have sound reasoning for choosing to use the ropes that they do on any given day.
It sounds like it may be confusing to some that there are 3 common rope systems for free climbing: single, double, and twin. There are also 3 categories for dynamic climbing ropes: single, half, and twin. It is not recommended by the manufacturers or the UIAA to use a half rope with twin rope system for example, though as folks have pointed out, there are now ropes that are rated for multiple types of use.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 20, 2014 - 06:08pm PT
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I have not seen such a collection of anecdotal technical climbing misinformation in a very long time.
Please give us a complete list of the misnformation in this thread so we can purge it from our collective consciousness. Except don't bother with the ongoing confusion about double, half, and twin ropes, that's just standard and hardly worth such a portentous proclamation, What else is wrong please?
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