summary of Half Ropes vs. One Rope + Tag Line/Pull Cord

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NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jul 11, 2014 - 08:30am PT
Community service announcement for folks relying on this thread as the main source of info before giving it a try:

1. That would be a bad idea... Do your homework so you die later rather than sooner
2. You can clip separately as doubles, or together as twins, but avoid mixing it on the same pitch. In other words, clip together always or never on the same pitch. The idea is to avoid rope sliding against itself and melting/weakening if you fall. Switching styles in the same pitch makes the different pieces of rope travel different distances in a fall, which causes them to slide against each other.

And skinny ropes do slide through ATC belay devices faster. The leg wrap thing is important for adding friction on free hanging raps. Newer ATCs have a V-notch that increases friction on the skinny ropes, so be especially careful if using an old-style ATC with no V-notch where the rope goes.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Jul 11, 2014 - 08:45am PT
If a route wanders a lot then half ropes are the way to go, same goes for climbing as a party of 3. Watch out when rapping on 8.6's, especially if they are icy.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:11am PT
Sincere question I've been pondering but knot sure I want to die.

Any logic at all in using one 80m (or 100?) single? I'm thinking of the new very light ropes they now rate for anything, half/twin/single. Are full 60 meter raps very often absolutely necessary?

Much of the rope weight is in a pile at the belay or on route.
Maybe the lightest system of all?
Never hauling a line
No knots at rappels
All other single rope advantages apply.
Could run the rope out in easy terrain or simul pitches for a long ways.

Arne
miwuksurfer

Social climber
Mi-Wuk
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:20am PT
I've never been bummed out about having extra rope for a rappel. A single 80m might be pushing it unless you knew ahead of time what you were looking at for rapping.
Tricerabottoms

climber
Tri County Fairgrounds
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:28am PT
Look into the Esprit Alpine Escape Rope.

If you go down to El Chalten, you will find this system is the standard amoung serious alpinists.....

Pros of The Esprit:
Super light 6mm rope
It is amazingly stiff, so it wont rap around flakes etc.
It comes dry treated and they will cut it as long as you want.
We typically rap on it and set it up so that we pull the lead line... Super easy pulls!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Jul 11, 2014 - 01:15pm PT
80 meter is definitely where it us headed
That doesn't make sense to me.
Yosemite climbs generally are 50 meters or newer climbs 60 meters per pitch.
Even counting some rope stretch, 40 meters of rope is insufficient for most multi pitch climbs I'm familiar with.
Just last month we needed 2 60 meter ropes for the first rappel and then only 1 for the second.
Please explain your reasoning.

Early on, Cliff said he threads the THIN rope through the anchor. Is that just to make it easier to pull?
What's wrong with using the thick? What's wrong with alternating rather than re-tying?
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jul 11, 2014 - 01:27pm PT
Any logic at all in using one 80m (or 100?) single? I'm thinking of the new very light ropes they now rate for anything, half/twin/single. Are full 60 meter raps very often absolutely necessary?

But you'd still need a tag line to send up the drill kit, beer, etc. Guess this doesn't apply to most though.

Also +1 on what Clint said.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Jul 11, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
HELP!

Would someone who honestly truly KNOWS what he is talking about, please answer this question, because it appears to me that some of you guys are using half/twin/double as synonyms, when they most assuredly are KNOTT.

Please define half, twin and double ropes.

1) If you are using ultra-skinny mountaineering ropes, you must clip BOTH ropes through EVERY piece of pro for the entire pitch, and if you fall, you fall on both ropes.

2) If you are using not-so-skinny ropes - like the trad Brits or the Gunks cognoscenti - then you can run the ropes separately to minimize rope drag, and fall onto either rope independently.

If I were guessing, I would say 1) = half, twin and 2) = double

But I repeat, it appears in many of the posts above, these three terms are being used synonymously!

[I know, I should know this, since I always used to climb on doubles BITD when I free climbed]

For walls, always a single lead rope plus a tag line of a mountaineering half-rope, to tag up gear and haul lines.
ionlyski

Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
Jul 11, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
Pete,
You are absolutely correct, there is some confusion above and probably always will be. Perhaps this is why we're seeing a trend at the manufacturers level of erasing or blurring those lines by making ropes which are rated as singles/doubles/twins/halfs

I always forget which of those is the same thing doubles=twin? doubles=halves? or twins=halves?
But that's terminology and not the scope of this discussion.

So High Traverse, what about 100's? or 120's? At 9.2mm or whatever they're making now. Point is, the system is essentially the same, it's just that it's one line, not two.

Arne
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jul 11, 2014 - 03:43pm PT
Pete,

> 1) If you are using ultra-skinny mountaineering ropes, you must clip BOTH ropes through EVERY piece of pro for the entire pitch, and if you fall, you fall on both ropes.

> 2) If you are using not-so-skinny ropes - like the trad Brits or the Gunks cognoscenti - then you can run the ropes separately to minimize rope drag, and fall onto either rope independently.

1) = twin
2) = half

double = vague!
Lanthade

climber
Jul 11, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
1:) twin
2:) half/double

Half and double are interchangeable. Can't make this easy.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Jul 11, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
I remember it as "Twins are always together." Like siblings.

And "I clip HALF my pro to this one and HALF my pro to that one."
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jul 11, 2014 - 09:25pm PT
and i do not care how experienced or good you are belaying with half ropes if you are equally experienced belaying with a single 90% of the time you will be able to give a better belay to a climber at their limit with a single than a half. that being said I use half ropes a lot but i am well aware that they are not always the best choice.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jul 12, 2014 - 10:35am PT
In terms of rope length, I think the decision should be based on these factors about how you climb and where you climb:

1) If you like wandering bushy trad adventures, go shorter ropes. Longer and they get stuck or high rope drag, and you can't communicate with your partner to identify the clusterfvck.

2) If you climb endless crack or slab systems that span multiple pitches, and you're fine with running it way out or bringing lots of pro so you don't run out, maybe you save time on switch-overs using the longer (80m) ropes.

3) how are belay stations set up at the places you are most likely to climb? No point in 80m ropes if you are doing 50-60m raps or skipping every other rap station on a route rigged for rapping from a single 50 or 60m rope.

Some cliffs 80m will never catch on because of #1, but it may already be standard on some cliffs.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jul 12, 2014 - 11:12am PT
Leslie and I are really sold on our 7.8 half/twins (Sterling photon) for going anywhere that takes two ropes to get down. At our standards that just means long moderate trad routes, not projects or walls.

One plus for having two belay ropes is they feel a tiny bit safer when you're around edges or dodgy rock, which somehow we find lots of. Our alternative long-climb systems are 9.2 or 9.4mm singles, which give the opposite feeling.



But the single ropes weigh less. Here are my reckonings for what's currently in the closet, based on the manufacturer's grams/meter.

2 x 60m x 7.8mm twin/half ropes, 10.8 lbs
1 x 60m x 9.2mm single, 7 lbs
1 x 70m x 9.4mm single, 8.8 lbs
1 x 60m x 9.8mm single, 8.2 lbs
D'Wolf

climber
Jul 12, 2014 - 06:05pm PT
Your concerns about the single rope + tag line are somewhat unfounded if you use the system correctly. Your description of its use is not correct, and the death you refer to did not happen as a result of the tag line zipping through the ATC. The death referred to was a friend of mine and he and his partner were using the system incorrectly (with no carabiner backup).

Search the web and you will find numerous photos of the system being setup incorrectly. The tag line should never bear weight; it is only used for retrieving the rap line.



Edit: by the way, the first illustration was posted in Climbing Magazine...
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jul 12, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
I don't use doubles anymore. Sucks having to carry two grigris around.
JonA

Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
Jul 12, 2014 - 09:11pm PT
How Clint describes using a tag line is how every climber I've ever met uses a tag line. The biner block thing posted above looks like it would get stuck on a rap down a featureless slab, yet I see it recommended online all the time. Weird.
D'Wolf

climber
Jul 12, 2014 - 11:18pm PT
Clint's system is not a Reepschnur, which is what the OP described. Clint's system is simply a double-rope rappel using two different sized ropes (9.2 - 9.5mm and an 8.1mm). The Reepschnur typically will use something like a 6mm for the tag to save even more weight and result in a single-rope rappel off the lead line. Used quite a bit by alpine guides.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Jul 13, 2014 - 12:16am PT
I never want to have to lead on 7mm static perlon because my rap hung up before any real rope made it back to me.
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