Poor ethics or not?


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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
All we need is a small camming unit designed to go in old bolt holes.

it exists already...

I'm not advocating for "crag cops"
...but maybe for a bit of honesty...
if you are afraid of injury, and we all are, you could turn that fear into a justification to bolt everything "safely" and mitigate (though not eliminate) the danger of falling.

You could, alternatively, improve your craft as a climber including the important ability to recognize when you should back off a climb you are not yet ready to climb. And by that I mean unable to commit to the risk of injury due to falling.

In the modern world of climbing, it seems, all climbers feel they should be able to climb any climb without serious risk. Somehow, they abdicate their own responsibility to technology.

You really should go and do some Yosemite routes with pre-cam equipment. Some routes are very different done that way.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 15, 2014 - 12:10am PT
I did nutcracker with passive gear and I was a mid 10 climber. I carry hexes in the high country. I've wedged knots and equalized RP's. I don't expect to climb hard or R or X. I've only done clean aid. I agree with your position. My era was during the rusty old small bolts and pins but no hammers or bolt kits. It was pretty scary really and more dangerous than the first ascentionists because we didn't have pins, hooks or reliable new bolts. We had vague guidebooks and more than a little PPP.

( Craft was all I ever had. God knows I'm talentless)

Balcarce, Argentina
Jun 15, 2014 - 06:38am PT
when I started climbing I supported myself on a very small amount of money, my rack was a set of stoppers and a set of hexes and tied slings... that rack got me up a lot of climbs, and it didn't cost very much. I was never a sponsored climber...

I can afford cams now, but I could still climb with just that old school rack.

I too had fun and adventure for a number of years climbing with one of those racks, which makes perfect sense because we're both climbers of similar ages coming from very similar cultural circumstances.

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:41am PT
Thank you Yang. It is great to hear about climbing in your country. I wish you great enjoyment.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:51am PT
Yangyang, Thanks for logging in and defending yourself. It really helps make this a quality discussion.

Your defence is very valid. Even in the USA pretty much anything goes at a quarry. These man made walls are often great places to experiment.

We can all go back to buying Solomon boots again. ;-P
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:18am PT
the facts of the local situation make the story all the more interesting.

However, the original OP criticism is still apt, as a "sponsored athlete" and the media (including the advertising media) bear some responsibility for explaining the setting of the images. That is, why are there bolts next to the cracks. This appears to be not widely known even in China.

As for developing a "training crag" one has to wonder why leading a crack has any more training effect then top-roping a crack, where anchors can be constructed with the intention of reducing the wear and tear on soft cliffs... left as a choice to the visiting climbers one gets a mess as can be seen in places around Mt. Diablo here in the SF Bay Area.

The fact is that many people see the images and without some commentary can draw conclusions about style from those images.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:25am PT
People in glass houses should not throw stones....especially when famous European climbers put in bolts next to perfect granite cracks in Patagonia.

It's a training area in a quarry. Well....i have conducted a lot of crack climbing clinics in Indian Creek. I always tell my students that placing gear is one of the key factors in crack climbing success. In crack climbing you usually come to failure on moves you were doing just fine a few meters lower. Success is a function of conserving energy by using good technique, milking rests AND being stategic in gear placing. Efficency placing gear is a KEY factor in crack climbing and should be a part of the training process.

Also, I don't buy into the soft sandstone story I always hear. I don't think the sandstone in that quarry or in Dresden is any softer than a lot of venues in the States where bolting next to cracks is not done.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 15, 2014 - 09:33am PT
Yang....you mention Siguniang. I was on it in 1980 and revisited the area with my wife last October. Beautiful place...no bolting issues there.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 15, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
We may be dumb but at least we write our names with our first name first and our last name last. Sheesh. Do you even lift, bruh? They don't even speak English in most countries. What's that all about? How can they read without letters?
Flop Flip
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Has nothing to do with ethics and more about style. Not the end of the world or it may be if your world is that small.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
"that's the problem, when NO line is drawn then every crag will become grid bolted inside a few decades, cracks and faces"

heard that 30 years ago...still has not happened.

Big Wall climber
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
Dr Duck wrote:
Good grief ...

People tax their brains over this?????

Millions and millions of people are suffering terribly on this planet right now and someone is taxing their brain over this insignificant bolt thing nothing ......

You have all your priorities all screwed up.

LOl! I love it when duck speaks!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Scrubbing...what are you trying to say??
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Quarry walls are a renewable resource.

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
There's an aspect here that hasn't been considered.

In most of the world collecting a reasonable "trad" rack may require the investment of most of a years wages, if you can get your hands on it at all.

Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 15, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
Scrubbing wrote: Maybe a century from now the idea of ethics in climbing will sound absurd

Sounds absurd to me now. Ethics and style are two different things.

TGT is right (for once) on cost of a rack in a third world country. I climbed in several and most climbers in them could barely afford a rope.

Trad climber
Jun 15, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
Perhaps local ethic allows people to bolt crack routes. Have you asked locals before playing god?

Gym climber
Planet Hoth
Jun 15, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
Do the locals own the rock?
In this case, yes, they do.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 15, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
We're letting the Chinese off kind of easy. If this happened in France there would be hell to pay.

Here are some of the arguments being presented:

China is a Third World Country whose climbers cannot afford to pay for crack protection.

Bolting cracks could possibly be the local ethic.

We are playing God (whoever that is) by the mere fact that some of us are criticising the climb.

The sandstone is soft argument.

Let's consider:

There are a lot of very poor people in China but the country also has the world's largest middle class and more people from China will travel outside of their country this year than from anywhere else in the world. My wife and I were in China last October and, after three days in Shanghai, LA felt super shabby in contrast. Additionally, who says expensive cams are necessary for crack protection. I sure as hell led a lot of cracks sans cams in the good old pre cam days.

The local ethic argument. Come on, what would you dudes say if the local ethic in France, Great Britain or Germany allowed bolting next to cracks.. You would heap mega abuse on
them, that's what.

The we are playing God argument. One, that's what Republicans do. Two, climbing is not life it's a game and games have rules to make them interesting. The pretty established worldwide climbing rule is that you don't bolt next to cracks. There is also an established rule that grabbing a quick draw means you didn't do it free. Hell. people hear get into silly arguments like, is tape aid or, if you get beta can you claim an onsight.

The rock is soft argument. Trust me it isn't softer than Arches or Sedona.

edit: I also agree with Bobby D. that we are using the word ethic where style would be more appropriate.

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
That's what a forum is all about...different opinions.
Messages 41 - 60 of total 82 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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