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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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Jun 14, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
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Crap.
I clinked on the link and now am getting emails from some "Chinese Princess" asking me for help transferring her yuan to the United States.
Apparently, if I help I get 50 grand American and a pair of new shoes!
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Jun 14, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
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I'm all for not bolting cracks and all that, but really, how do you folks think it looks to poorer people from much poorer countries, countries that consume maybe a fourth as much per capita as Americans do and who see these Americans practicing mountaintop removal mining, destroying the water sources of entire towns with frakking, invading middle eastern countries and so on, to get the energy needed to keep massive shopping malls so cold in summer that people need bring a sweater, and then seeing these same Americans getting all high and mighty about putting some bolts in a rock?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jun 14, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
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Apparently, if I help I get 50 grand American and a pair of new shoes!
Are they Solomon??
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
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Mr. Donini, didn't people bash the hell out of cracks with hammers and steel before cams. I can't find a give-a-f*#k. Climbing is fun and if a few bolts can bring some enjoyment to people who don't have very expensive technology then I say have fun. It's not hurting anybody.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 14, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
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If someone bolted 'Dave's Deviation' in my 'hood, I'd be pissed. I don't care if they would find it fun or not. I'd be pissed.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 14, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
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Flip Flop that was from climbers in Yosemite's "Golden Age." They were putting up the first Big Walls and the end was more important than the means.
I was lucky enough to be a part of the generation that pushed free climbing beyond where it had been. We had a wonderful plethora of virgin cracks in places like Arch Rock and the Cookie. I did a number of first ascents and never placed a pin OR a cam...cams didn't exist. I will admit that two of the climbs had been tried before and each had a single pin placed by others.
edit: If we were doing cracks sans pins before tha advent of cams, there is no excuse now that cams have made protecting cracks so easy.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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Ron is drunk.
I used to be uptight about climbing ethics but it doesn't have enough tradition. It's a personal religion without substance. I've never hammered a bolt or a pin and I like my gear but I'm not in the habit of imposing my ethics if I can help it. I'm more concerned about the trails and the ecology of the cracks than whether some fundamentalist approves of Chinese crag development.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
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... and then seeing these same Americans getting all high and mighty about putting some bolts in a rock?
when I started climbing I supported myself on a very small amount of money, my rack was a set of stoppers and a set of hexes and tied slings... that rack got me up a lot of climbs, and it didn't cost very much. I was never a sponsored climber...
I can afford cams now, but I could still climb with just that old school rack.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jun 14, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
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This is interesting. Does the winner of this internet battle get to drill the losers crack?
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COT
climber
Door Number 3
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Jun 14, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
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I agree a few bolts next to one crack is not a big deal. But China is still developing its climbing ethic.
Last summer while climbing in Sigunaing, we heard a Chinese climber had recently retro-bolted Allen Steck's, Eric Perlman's et all 1984 route on Celestial Peak. My Chinese climber friends told me this individual also had a reputation for chipping routes to make them easier, so he could get female climbers to climb with him....which is wrong on so many levels. Fortunately, many Chinese climbers gave him grief on Weibo (Chinese twitter).
Recently, places like the sandstone crack areas of Liming in Yunnan have been developed (mostly by westerns, but also some Chinese climbers) without resorting to bolts.
I think what the OP is trying to say is "athletes" posting images of bolted cracks do a disservice to the budding clean climbing ethic in China.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jun 14, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
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Does the winner of this internet battle get to drill the losers crack?
HO MAN!!!!! We have a winner!!!!
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Jun 14, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
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I'm with Ron
Please don't climb here anymore
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 14, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
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So, yeah, I've climbed a few hundred cracks with pins, then stoppers and hexes, and then cams. But really, how is being able to do a hard move with a bombproof cam or stopper above you "better" than doing that same move with a bolt for pro?
Seriously.
In my bones, I feel that bolting cracks is wrong. But when I let my mental trad guard slip for a moment I catch myself wondering if that feeling is really any different than any other ridiculous religious belief.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
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It's more a culture of expediency.
as it is becoming, more and more, everywhere...
the OP asked if this is "poor ethics"
it is...
that said, it probably doesn't matter as these things will happen more and more in the future.
I climb the way I climb,
I put up FAs the way I do by choice in the best style I know how.
That's just me.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jun 14, 2014 - 11:07pm PT
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It really has become quite common place in many areas. It used to be the exception.
And we should recall that 'bolting cracks' is not the same as 'bolting otherwise protectable cracks with clean gear.' Bad gear assessments leave much room for disagreement on when a bolt next to a 'crack' might make sense.
But what if we universalize the idea of bolting all cracks? Would it really make a difference? It definitely flies in the face of clean climbing efforts, but we've already agreed that anchor bolts are ok, so we're making a non-clean permanent impact there in many cases.
Would crack areas get overrun?
I'd love to hear more arguments against bolting cracks and what underlying principles support their arguments, and what practical impacts might mitigate against bolted cracks... as a universalized idea.
thx,
M
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
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but we've already agreed that anchor bolts are ok
we have?
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Jun 14, 2014 - 11:19pm PT
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Next thing you know there will be rappel placed bolts on el cap next to gear placements!
What's that?? Errrr nevermind.....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
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I'd love to hear more arguments against bolting cracks and what underlying principles support their arguments
the rules are arbitrary, of course...
but the use of technology in climbing can get you up any climb you want.
So you can ask the question: what is the point of climbing?
You are certainly free to climb any climb in the style you wish, so long as you do not alter already established climbs. You aren't free to claim that having ascended a climb in the same manner as the FA if you did not.
Just getting to the top isn't enough.
You might object that we don't climb, e.g. Nutcracker, the same way the FA did... and that would be correct. Perhaps you should try it and see if it makes a difference compared to climbing with modern technology. I think you'll find that it will make a difference.
So the general style is to minimize the technological aspects of the climbing to allow the "human" aspects to be more prevalent.
Bolting next to a crack is a much more intrusive use of technology than using gear to protect the crack. The protection you put in to the crack comes out and stays with you.
What about "bad cracks"? Take the off width variety, are you arguing that because is is difficult or impossible to protect some of the off width climbs that they should be bolted? That would certainly change the character of the crack, and make those climbs very different than the original climbers approached them. Modern technology also does this, large cams allow us to protect those routes today in a way they could never have been in the past.
Technology is allowing us to get up something we might not otherwise be able to get up.
Taken to its limit, technology can allow us to get up anything we want to get up.
Where do you draw the line?
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 14, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
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Munge Climber is right to ask what is next in terms of progress. I have an idea that could universalize protection and eliminate bolts. I like progress. All we need is a small camming unit designed to go in old bolt holes. It should be relatively simple to design. I can imagine a strong and secure unit that fits in a 3/8 hole. Even anchors could be built and removed. Bam.
Ed Hartouni, I'll start it off with bolts are ugly. I still hold personal trad ethics I just don't put too much weight in my own opinions or feel judgemental about mostly harmless bolting. I'd prefer to never see a hanger or fixed gear at all. I prefer to see no trace. Bolt-hole-cams would go a long way to cleaning up the cliffs while allowing climbing to progress. Until then, I can live with bolts in some places just like I can live with people chopping bolts. It's not a big deal to me.
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COT
climber
Door Number 3
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Jun 14, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
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Mungeclimber, here is an example of removable protection trumping bolts
The sea cliffs at Long Dong (yup that's the name) in Taiwan are made of bullet hard sandstone and have lots of vertical and horizontal cracks. In the late 80's and 90's the local climbers bolted all the cracks, too make them "safe" to lead. They chose bolts and hanger made of materials that disintegrated from the inside out due to the salt water corrosion, creating time bombs for the unlucky climber. They replaced sport/face climbs with Titanium glue ins that seem ok, but wisely did not replace the ones protecting the cracks
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