Poor ethics or not?

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janeclimber

Ice climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 14, 2014 - 05:43pm PT
Is this Poor ethics or not?

It is a common practices in America and Europe that you do NOT bolt a crack route, if you can avoid doing so. We would expect that sponsored athletes would respect this custom. But in this series of photos posted by Ms. 杨小华 Yang Xiaohua, a Salomon sponsored athlete, you can see Ms. Yang was climbing a bolted crack in Sichuan China.
http://www.weibo.com/2137013935/ADdxTCz8H#_rnd1402792101353
[ The link is to a Chinese site, I have posted the screen shot of her post later for you to review. Thanks!]

Actually she climbed two crack routes with bolts. It is unclear who bolted these routes. If the routes were not developed by her, is it cool to climb a bolted crack like that? Is it good publicity? Do sponsored athletes have a social responsibility to withhold an above-average ethnic standards in outdoor pursuits?

Voice your opinions, climbers!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 05:49pm PT
in my opinion it is bad style to bolt crack climbs

the hardware exists to provide protection without altering the rock.

the best style is one with the absolute minimum alteration.

IMHO

YMMV

FYIYDA

and by the way, you may not want to click on the link ...


COT

climber
Door Number 3
Jun 14, 2014 - 05:52pm PT
Having climbed quite a bit in Sichuan, and having met lots of Chinese climbers who are psyched on trad climbing, this is sad to see :(

Not to mention her rope management skills

RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 14, 2014 - 05:53pm PT
That link is incomprehensible to me.


And I don't care if some Chinese "athlete" climbed a bolted crack.


Maybe they thought it would be fun?


Maybe it was fun?


I hear they eat dogs there too maybe we need a thread on that?


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 14, 2014 - 05:54pm PT
I have said it before and I will say it again, I am vehemently opposed to the death penalty EXCEPT....for white collar crime and bolting cracks.
janeclimber

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2014 - 05:54pm PT

COT

climber
Door Number 3
Jun 14, 2014 - 06:07pm PT
Hey RyanD

Ms.Yang Xiaohua mentioned in her post that exasperater crack is next :)
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 14, 2014 - 06:23pm PT


Ms.Yang Xiaohua mentioned in her post that exasperater crack is next :)


Lol!!


Perfect!


It's already all banged out from the OG's back in the 70s anyways :-)


But seriously though.

She should be sent to work in a rice field or factory for the rest of her days.

If she had bolted it herself and was just spraying about it I could see the need for everyone to throw their arms up, but she's just doing a lap for fun- anyone here ever climb Cookie Monster?


Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Jun 14, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
Isn't this the same woman that just heloed up to camp 2 on Everest?

janeclimber

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
RyanD,

Thanks for your valuable comments.

IMHO, China is part of the global village. Jim Donini opened several awesome crack routes in Sichuan recently. Quite a few North American climbers go climbing in China, among them, David Anderson and Szu-ting Yi are dear friends of mine. These climbers go to China, they opened the routes withholding the highest ethnic standards of our times. I respect their way.


The mountains are for everyone to enjoy and to appreciate. Many Chinese immigrants now live in US and Canada and some of these immigrants are climbers who frequent Yosemite and Squamish. I am one of them. I am also hoping to climb walls in China when time permits.

I am not sure if you or anyone here wear Salomon shoes, clothing, or use Petzl climbing gear. Ms. Yang is sponsored by Salomon and she claims that she is having some kind of sponsorship from Petzl as well.

I use Petzl ice gear and own a pair of Salomon shoes. Personally, I feel uncomfortable knowing that an athlete climbing on a bolted crack is sponsored by Salomon and Petzl. I am their customer. As a climber, I strive to withhold the highest ethical standards. So I publicly condemn this kind of poor practice. Moreover, I am sincerely hoping that the new-generation of Chinese climbers will catch up and stop bolting cracks. For that, I am very grateful that Jim Donini spoke up.

Thanks a ton, Papa Donini!

John M

climber
Jun 14, 2014 - 06:41pm PT
I clicked on the link before realizing it might not be a good idea. The first photo looks photoshopped.


John M

climber
Jun 14, 2014 - 06:44pm PT
Randisi, the crack is squared off at the top and just ends.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 14, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
Maybe that's why it's bolted??




If we started boycotting companies because their "athletes" climbed(not bolted) bolted cracks there would be nobody left to buy gear from.


I agree that minimal bolting when natural gear is available is for the best.

Just pointing out that we don't know the whole story here so just seems like pointless speculation.


And if donini has never clipped one next to a crack after all the climbing he's done then I'm justin bieber :-)
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 14, 2014 - 07:15pm PT
Regardless of the cost of cams, bolts next to cracks is an absolute no, no. We did okay in Yosemite in the pre cam days.

edit: Looks like a pretty easy crack, she probably didn't need bolts OR cams.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jun 14, 2014 - 07:22pm PT
This is a country where environmental standards too often place a distant second to individual interests...bolted cracks are consistent with this locus, no?
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jun 14, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Do they eat hang dogs, there?
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jun 14, 2014 - 07:39pm PT
Ya know, I'm gettin' old and the kids don't seem to care.

I lead a difficult 5.3R at Suicide by sideways climbing to the nearby 5.7 flaring crack for occasional pro. But you know, if I could have just clipped some big honkin' stainless 3/8 every 8 feet, it might have been more fun.


Hell I could lead Flower of High Rank, 5.9 -sustained- if I didn't have to stand on my twisted ankles with toes in the jam crack, left hand jammed and fumbling for the right size cam, (or Tri-Cam, amen). If I could just clip every six feet on draws or just clip perma-draws, why it would be totally knocked down to my level and I'd be doing more climbing.


So hell with it! Bolt all the cracks. (as long as I don't have to pay for it)


Aren't cams easier?


What about ski lifts?


Poor old California trad climbing ethics, but who cares? We're just a bunch of old has-beens. No one cares if our generation could lead Separate Reality with hex nuts.


Young kids just gonna sport climb their way up to Honnold level then just free solo everything anyhow.

anita514

Gym climber
Great White North
Jun 14, 2014 - 07:41pm PT

I use Petzl ice gear and own a pair of Salomon shoes. Personally, I feel uncomfortable knowing that an athlete climbing on a bolted crack is sponsored by Salomon and Petzl. I am their customer. As a climber, I strive to withhold the highest ethical standards. So I publicly condemn this kind of poor practice


good for you
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 14, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
It could be the apogee of her career.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jun 14, 2014 - 07:44pm PT
That would be a low trajectory....
Ricky D

Trad climber
Sierra Westside
Jun 14, 2014 - 07:46pm PT
Crap.

I clinked on the link and now am getting emails from some "Chinese Princess" asking me for help transferring her yuan to the United States.

Apparently, if I help I get 50 grand American and a pair of new shoes!
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Jun 14, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
I'm all for not bolting cracks and all that, but really, how do you folks think it looks to poorer people from much poorer countries, countries that consume maybe a fourth as much per capita as Americans do and who see these Americans practicing mountaintop removal mining, destroying the water sources of entire towns with frakking, invading middle eastern countries and so on, to get the energy needed to keep massive shopping malls so cold in summer that people need bring a sweater, and then seeing these same Americans getting all high and mighty about putting some bolts in a rock?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 14, 2014 - 08:30pm PT
Apparently, if I help I get 50 grand American and a pair of new shoes!


Are they Solomon??
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 08:40pm PT
Mr. Donini, didn't people bash the hell out of cracks with hammers and steel before cams. I can't find a give-a-f*#k. Climbing is fun and if a few bolts can bring some enjoyment to people who don't have very expensive technology then I say have fun. It's not hurting anybody.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jun 14, 2014 - 08:50pm PT
If someone bolted 'Dave's Deviation' in my 'hood, I'd be pissed. I don't care if they would find it fun or not. I'd be pissed.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 14, 2014 - 08:51pm PT
Flip Flop that was from climbers in Yosemite's "Golden Age." They were putting up the first Big Walls and the end was more important than the means.
I was lucky enough to be a part of the generation that pushed free climbing beyond where it had been. We had a wonderful plethora of virgin cracks in places like Arch Rock and the Cookie. I did a number of first ascents and never placed a pin OR a cam...cams didn't exist. I will admit that two of the climbs had been tried before and each had a single pin placed by others.

edit: If we were doing cracks sans pins before tha advent of cams, there is no excuse now that cams have made protecting cracks so easy.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
Ron is drunk.

I used to be uptight about climbing ethics but it doesn't have enough tradition. It's a personal religion without substance. I've never hammered a bolt or a pin and I like my gear but I'm not in the habit of imposing my ethics if I can help it. I'm more concerned about the trails and the ecology of the cracks than whether some fundamentalist approves of Chinese crag development.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 09:17pm PT
... and then seeing these same Americans getting all high and mighty about putting some bolts in a rock?

when I started climbing I supported myself on a very small amount of money, my rack was a set of stoppers and a set of hexes and tied slings... that rack got me up a lot of climbs, and it didn't cost very much. I was never a sponsored climber...

I can afford cams now, but I could still climb with just that old school rack.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 14, 2014 - 09:38pm PT
This is interesting. Does the winner of this internet battle get to drill the losers crack?
COT

climber
Door Number 3
Jun 14, 2014 - 09:39pm PT
I agree a few bolts next to one crack is not a big deal. But China is still developing its climbing ethic.


Last summer while climbing in Sigunaing, we heard a Chinese climber had recently retro-bolted Allen Steck's, Eric Perlman's et all 1984 route on Celestial Peak. My Chinese climber friends told me this individual also had a reputation for chipping routes to make them easier, so he could get female climbers to climb with him....which is wrong on so many levels. Fortunately, many Chinese climbers gave him grief on Weibo (Chinese twitter).

Recently, places like the sandstone crack areas of Liming in Yunnan have been developed (mostly by westerns, but also some Chinese climbers) without resorting to bolts.

I think what the OP is trying to say is "athletes" posting images of bolted cracks do a disservice to the budding clean climbing ethic in China.
Evel

Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
Jun 14, 2014 - 09:44pm PT
Does the winner of this internet battle get to drill the losers crack?



HO MAN!!!!! We have a winner!!!!


Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
Jun 14, 2014 - 09:45pm PT
I'm with Ron
Please don't climb here anymore
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jun 14, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
So, yeah, I've climbed a few hundred cracks with pins, then stoppers and hexes, and then cams. But really, how is being able to do a hard move with a bombproof cam or stopper above you "better" than doing that same move with a bolt for pro?

Seriously.

In my bones, I feel that bolting cracks is wrong. But when I let my mental trad guard slip for a moment I catch myself wondering if that feeling is really any different than any other ridiculous religious belief.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 10:11pm PT
It's more a culture of expediency.

as it is becoming, more and more, everywhere...

the OP asked if this is "poor ethics"

it is...

that said, it probably doesn't matter as these things will happen more and more in the future.

I climb the way I climb,
I put up FAs the way I do by choice in the best style I know how.

That's just me.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jun 14, 2014 - 11:07pm PT

It really has become quite common place in many areas. It used to be the exception.

And we should recall that 'bolting cracks' is not the same as 'bolting otherwise protectable cracks with clean gear.' Bad gear assessments leave much room for disagreement on when a bolt next to a 'crack' might make sense.

But what if we universalize the idea of bolting all cracks? Would it really make a difference? It definitely flies in the face of clean climbing efforts, but we've already agreed that anchor bolts are ok, so we're making a non-clean permanent impact there in many cases.

Would crack areas get overrun?

I'd love to hear more arguments against bolting cracks and what underlying principles support their arguments, and what practical impacts might mitigate against bolted cracks... as a universalized idea.

thx,
M




Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 11:08pm PT
but we've already agreed that anchor bolts are ok

we have?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Jun 14, 2014 - 11:19pm PT
Next thing you know there will be rappel placed bolts on el cap next to gear placements!


What's that?? Errrr nevermind.....
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 11:22pm PT
I'd love to hear more arguments against bolting cracks and what underlying principles support their arguments

the rules are arbitrary, of course...

but the use of technology in climbing can get you up any climb you want.

So you can ask the question: what is the point of climbing?

You are certainly free to climb any climb in the style you wish, so long as you do not alter already established climbs. You aren't free to claim that having ascended a climb in the same manner as the FA if you did not.

Just getting to the top isn't enough.

You might object that we don't climb, e.g. Nutcracker, the same way the FA did... and that would be correct. Perhaps you should try it and see if it makes a difference compared to climbing with modern technology. I think you'll find that it will make a difference.

So the general style is to minimize the technological aspects of the climbing to allow the "human" aspects to be more prevalent.

Bolting next to a crack is a much more intrusive use of technology than using gear to protect the crack. The protection you put in to the crack comes out and stays with you.

What about "bad cracks"? Take the off width variety, are you arguing that because is is difficult or impossible to protect some of the off width climbs that they should be bolted? That would certainly change the character of the crack, and make those climbs very different than the original climbers approached them. Modern technology also does this, large cams allow us to protect those routes today in a way they could never have been in the past.

Technology is allowing us to get up something we might not otherwise be able to get up.

Taken to its limit, technology can allow us to get up anything we want to get up.

Where do you draw the line?

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 11:30pm PT
Munge Climber is right to ask what is next in terms of progress. I have an idea that could universalize protection and eliminate bolts. I like progress. All we need is a small camming unit designed to go in old bolt holes. It should be relatively simple to design. I can imagine a strong and secure unit that fits in a 3/8 hole. Even anchors could be built and removed. Bam.

Ed Hartouni, I'll start it off with bolts are ugly. I still hold personal trad ethics I just don't put too much weight in my own opinions or feel judgemental about mostly harmless bolting. I'd prefer to never see a hanger or fixed gear at all. I prefer to see no trace. Bolt-hole-cams would go a long way to cleaning up the cliffs while allowing climbing to progress. Until then, I can live with bolts in some places just like I can live with people chopping bolts. It's not a big deal to me.
COT

climber
Door Number 3
Jun 14, 2014 - 11:39pm PT
Mungeclimber, here is an example of removable protection trumping bolts

The sea cliffs at Long Dong (yup that's the name) in Taiwan are made of bullet hard sandstone and have lots of vertical and horizontal cracks. In the late 80's and 90's the local climbers bolted all the cracks, too make them "safe" to lead. They chose bolts and hanger made of materials that disintegrated from the inside out due to the salt water corrosion, creating time bombs for the unlucky climber. They replaced sport/face climbs with Titanium glue ins that seem ok, but wisely did not replace the ones protecting the cracks

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 14, 2014 - 11:48pm PT
All we need is a small camming unit designed to go in old bolt holes.

it exists already...



I'm not advocating for "crag cops"
...but maybe for a bit of honesty...
if you are afraid of injury, and we all are, you could turn that fear into a justification to bolt everything "safely" and mitigate (though not eliminate) the danger of falling.

You could, alternatively, improve your craft as a climber including the important ability to recognize when you should back off a climb you are not yet ready to climb. And by that I mean unable to commit to the risk of injury due to falling.

In the modern world of climbing, it seems, all climbers feel they should be able to climb any climb without serious risk. Somehow, they abdicate their own responsibility to technology.

You really should go and do some Yosemite routes with pre-cam equipment. Some routes are very different done that way.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 15, 2014 - 12:10am PT
I did nutcracker with passive gear and I was a mid 10 climber. I carry hexes in the high country. I've wedged knots and equalized RP's. I don't expect to climb hard or R or X. I've only done clean aid. I agree with your position. My era was during the rusty old small bolts and pins but no hammers or bolt kits. It was pretty scary really and more dangerous than the first ascentionists because we didn't have pins, hooks or reliable new bolts. We had vague guidebooks and more than a little PPP.

( Craft was all I ever had. God knows I'm talentless)
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Jun 15, 2014 - 06:38am PT
when I started climbing I supported myself on a very small amount of money, my rack was a set of stoppers and a set of hexes and tied slings... that rack got me up a lot of climbs, and it didn't cost very much. I was never a sponsored climber...

I can afford cams now, but I could still climb with just that old school rack.

I too had fun and adventure for a number of years climbing with one of those racks, which makes perfect sense because we're both climbers of similar ages coming from very similar cultural circumstances.

Cheers
Tim
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:41am PT
Thank you Yang. It is great to hear about climbing in your country. I wish you great enjoyment.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:51am PT
Yangyang, Thanks for logging in and defending yourself. It really helps make this a quality discussion.


Your defence is very valid. Even in the USA pretty much anything goes at a quarry. These man made walls are often great places to experiment.


We can all go back to buying Solomon boots again. ;-P
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:18am PT
the facts of the local situation make the story all the more interesting.

However, the original OP criticism is still apt, as a "sponsored athlete" and the media (including the advertising media) bear some responsibility for explaining the setting of the images. That is, why are there bolts next to the cracks. This appears to be not widely known even in China.

As for developing a "training crag" one has to wonder why leading a crack has any more training effect then top-roping a crack, where anchors can be constructed with the intention of reducing the wear and tear on soft cliffs... left as a choice to the visiting climbers one gets a mess as can be seen in places around Mt. Diablo here in the SF Bay Area.

The fact is that many people see the images and without some commentary can draw conclusions about style from those images.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:25am PT
People in glass houses should not throw stones....especially when famous European climbers put in bolts next to perfect granite cracks in Patagonia.

It's a training area in a quarry. Well....i have conducted a lot of crack climbing clinics in Indian Creek. I always tell my students that placing gear is one of the key factors in crack climbing success. In crack climbing you usually come to failure on moves you were doing just fine a few meters lower. Success is a function of conserving energy by using good technique, milking rests AND being stategic in gear placing. Efficency placing gear is a KEY factor in crack climbing and should be a part of the training process.

Also, I don't buy into the soft sandstone story I always hear. I don't think the sandstone in that quarry or in Dresden is any softer than a lot of venues in the States where bolting next to cracks is not done.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 15, 2014 - 09:33am PT
Yang....you mention Siguniang. I was on it in 1980 and revisited the area with my wife last October. Beautiful place...no bolting issues there.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 15, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
We may be dumb but at least we write our names with our first name first and our last name last. Sheesh. Do you even lift, bruh? They don't even speak English in most countries. What's that all about? How can they read without letters?
Flop Flip
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:01pm PT
Has nothing to do with ethics and more about style. Not the end of the world or it may be if your world is that small.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:04pm PT
"that's the problem, when NO line is drawn then every crag will become grid bolted inside a few decades, cracks and faces"

heard that 30 years ago...still has not happened.
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
Dr Duck wrote:
Good grief ...

People tax their brains over this?????

Millions and millions of people are suffering terribly on this planet right now and someone is taxing their brain over this insignificant bolt thing nothing ......

You have all your priorities all screwed up.

LOl! I love it when duck speaks!
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:35pm PT
Scrubbing...what are you trying to say??
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Quarry walls are a renewable resource.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2014 - 02:47pm PT
There's an aspect here that hasn't been considered.

In most of the world collecting a reasonable "trad" rack may require the investment of most of a years wages, if you can get your hands on it at all.





Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 15, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
Scrubbing wrote: Maybe a century from now the idea of ethics in climbing will sound absurd


Sounds absurd to me now. Ethics and style are two different things.

TGT is right (for once) on cost of a rack in a third world country. I climbed in several and most climbers in them could barely afford a rope.
ItsAtrap

Trad climber
Wonderland
Jun 15, 2014 - 05:02pm PT
Perhaps local ethic allows people to bolt crack routes. Have you asked locals before playing god?
ItsAtrap

Gym climber
Planet Hoth
Jun 15, 2014 - 05:38pm PT
Do the locals own the rock?
In this case, yes, they do.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 15, 2014 - 06:28pm PT
We're letting the Chinese off kind of easy. If this happened in France there would be hell to pay.

Here are some of the arguments being presented:

China is a Third World Country whose climbers cannot afford to pay for crack protection.

Bolting cracks could possibly be the local ethic.

We are playing God (whoever that is) by the mere fact that some of us are criticising the climb.

The sandstone is soft argument.

Let's consider:

There are a lot of very poor people in China but the country also has the world's largest middle class and more people from China will travel outside of their country this year than from anywhere else in the world. My wife and I were in China last October and, after three days in Shanghai, LA felt super shabby in contrast. Additionally, who says expensive cams are necessary for crack protection. I sure as hell led a lot of cracks sans cams in the good old pre cam days.

The local ethic argument. Come on, what would you dudes say if the local ethic in France, Great Britain or Germany allowed bolting next to cracks.. You would heap mega abuse on
them, that's what.

The we are playing God argument. One, that's what Republicans do. Two, climbing is not life it's a game and games have rules to make them interesting. The pretty established worldwide climbing rule is that you don't bolt next to cracks. There is also an established rule that grabbing a quick draw means you didn't do it free. Hell. people hear get into silly arguments like, is tape aid or, if you get beta can you claim an onsight.

The rock is soft argument. Trust me it isn't softer than Arches or Sedona.

edit: I also agree with Bobby D. that we are using the word ethic where style would be more appropriate.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:35pm PT
That's what a forum is all about...different opinions.
Magic Ed

Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:45pm PT
I have no problem with bolted cracks, as long as you respect the local ethic.

If someone wants to bolt the cracks in a new area on a first ascent so be it.

If you come along later and want to skip the bolts, more power to you.
mike m

Trad climber
black hills
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
What if you come along later and skip the bolts and chop them on the way down.


Way to go spurs.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Jun 15, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
It's an abandoned quarry and the bolts are foot long glue-ins.

(read her post)

China's growing middle class not withstanding, a practice area that required an Indian Creek rack there would certainly be very exclusive.

Just keep your leg out from under that rope Yang.

At least the routes aren't artificially created by pounding the choss into submission.

I think we have a few of those in the states.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
Jun 15, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
Aren't ethics the social rules that dictate the preferred style?

Ethics in outdoor recreation refer to our "rules of engagement" for using natural outdoor resources. Our ethics guide us to control the level of our impact on outdoor resources and to protect the resource for others (and us) to enjoy into the future. "Leave no trace" ethics are generally accepted to be the highest level of outdoor resource use ethics though implementing this ideal has various interpretations depending on who you ask about it.

Style has to do with any of the other choices you make about how you climb that doesn't (significantly) effect the natural outdoor resource.

Your ethics are communal in the sense that they effect the climbing community positively or negatively. Access problems are commonly an outcome of ethics that heavily impact the environment and incense other non-climber user groups.

Your style is personal. Make up any rules about style you want since the climbing game is completely arbitrary anyway.
Captain...or Skully

climber
in the oil patch
Jun 15, 2014 - 09:10pm PT
Word. Nicely stated.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jun 16, 2014 - 04:57pm PT
COT, thx for the example. Not one I had thought of in this context.


ED, don't give away the surprise at the end (wrt to the 'agree' without scare quotes and silence (lack of pulling) equal to acceptance, on the whole. :)

Thx donini for trying to summarise. Hard to rally the multiple arguments, even when we leave the abusive ad hominems off. :)


Great reminders about the style vs. ethics definitions.


Setting aside the soft sandstone argument (about which perhaps reasonable minds can differ on what is going to hold a cam vs. what will not).


Also, focusing in on the first ascent, not rebolting.

Also, setting aside the McGee thread.


Argument from 'leave no trace' principles is a principle of least interference. A sort of Kantian principle that if we universalize everyone's behavior to the same degree, does it permit some acceptable balance for the most user's to enjoy.

The above often begs the question of what is aesthetic vs. ugly. Often this appeals to a principle of the naturalistic fallacy. That which is natural is elevated in value. The converse can be argued as well. That which is man made or cultured has a higher value.

That often devolves into a subjective appreciation and we're trying to target an objective set of principles (i.e. no one single view can be right, but a view that still takes consensus into account).

There is also the argument from maximum utility. 'that most people will have the most fun from more bolts, rather than cams.' I think this draws from the view that bolts are generally safer than cams. There are lot of things to consider there. I guess the sandstone argument comes back. The use of specialized carabiners for ease of locking and unlocking to truly gain the value of a safer bolt. More training on how to bolt properly comes up.

Cams are expensive and are a barrier to entry. Argument from egalitarian principles, that everyone should have equality of opportunity. Some gear is required. Bouldering or soloing seems the only truly egalitarian form of climbing.


What are the additional arguments in either direction?




janeclimber

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 16, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
It is a huge misunderstanding that Chinese climbers are poor and they can not afford cams. I am quite familiar with the climbing scene in China. You will be surprised to see their shiny cams and new arcteryx patagonia clothing. Most of these climbers and hikers have way better equipment than us in North America.

China is late to the climbing scene. In the 1950s and 1960s, climbing and mountaineering served the purpose of political propaganda. Only hand-picked few from blue-collar upbringing (aka, the "good" proletarian class) were allowed to join the teams that ascended Everest and Minya Konka in siege style. The news reels of their ascents were shown in the movie theaters nation-wide but it had nothing to do with average Chinese.

Since the late 1990s, a group of Chinese, mostly recent college graduates who can read English climbing news online started to climb on their own. Among them people, a group of them are based in Beijing. They started developing routes in Baihe, an area not far from Beijing. They even started a "Baihe climbing fund" 白河攀岩基金, a grass-root effort to solicit funds and to manage the development of routes in Baihe. This group, which I am actively involved, has started the establishment and debating of their own climbing ethics/style since the early 2000's. Mr. CHEN Hui's effort of chipping holds to create a route named "Wanmei xinqing" (Perfect Mood), has been criticized by this group of climbers. The trad climbers constantly discuss the climbing ethics/style at the website: bbs.rockbeer.org. It even has a thread to record and display the poor practices of chipping holds, bolting cracks, installing artificial holds on natural rocks not only in China, but also outside China, such as in France and Italy.

Climbers have made poor choices in the past, for instance, the infamous compressor route in Patagonia. The new players have the option to open a second compressor route in Sichuan or, NOT.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jun 16, 2014 - 10:33pm PT
Good grief ...

+1
Fishy

climber
Zurich, Switzerland
Jun 17, 2014 - 02:16am PT
There are several references in this thread to some anti-bolting ethic in Europe - beginning with the OP.

Although true in the UK, I have found dozens of granite areas throughout the Alps with bolted cracks, flakes and corners which would be easily protectable with trad gear.

Areas with an anti-bolt ethic (such as the Orco valley in Italy) are rare exceptions.

So the majority of continental Europe is fine with bolts by cracks. Maybe the Chinese have decided to follow the same ethic.

Personally, I am not in favour of bolting cracks. But there are plenty of places in the world where it is well accepted.

Who made a couple of Supertopians the worldwide bolt police?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Jun 17, 2014 - 03:45am PT
Why must you guys behave like children in front of them?

I second that motion.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Jun 17, 2014 - 08:06am PT
Janeclimber wrote: Climbers have made poor choices in the past, for instance, the infamous compressor route in Patagonia. The new players have the option to open a second compressor route in Sichuan or, NOT.



Small world you live in.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Jun 17, 2014 - 08:38am PT
I think it has to do with the context of the climb, the bolt placement, and whether that bolt was placed by the first climber to do the route.

Well said Warbler.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jun 17, 2014 - 08:40am PT
All fixed gear is terrorism. The only way to change the climate is to ban all bolts. We need to join PETA (Poseurs for the Ethical Treatment of Absurdities) to bring back ideal climbing temps. Don't smack the Earth First!

Rock is dumb. Said it.
klk

Trad climber
cali
Jun 17, 2014 - 09:29am PT
It's an abandoned quarry and the bolts are foot long glue-ins.

(read her post)

China's growing middle class not withstanding, a practice area that required an Indian Creek rack there would certainly be very exclusive.

bingo.

so much whining on st.

of the many, many, many problems china faces, environmental and otherwise, a bolted crack in a quarry (or almost anywhere else, for that matter) can't possibly be in the top million.
JimT

climber
Munich
Jun 17, 2014 - 10:16am PT
It is a common practices in America and Europe that you do NOT bolt a crack route, if you can avoid doing so.
Read that and didnt bother with the rest of a thread based on a false premise. Ive bolted more cracks than most people have had Chinese takouts.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jun 17, 2014 - 10:18am PT
Posting in a Chinese National Botnet spyware link honeypot thread.
Bullwinkle

Boulder climber
Jun 17, 2014 - 10:36am PT
Hello Yang Xiaohua, please remember that we Americans and Europeans Invented Rock Climbing and if you do not hold the same ethics and climb the way we do, you're evil. If you continue to Climb in a way that does not please our collective Egos, we shall do to you the same thing we do to all Brown People that question our beliefs, we shall invade your Country.

You have been warned, be like us, or we won't like, you. . .


Edit, I agree with you Jim, but I also feel that if rap bolting, hangdoging and aid climbing are acceptable, then why not bolted cracks? I've climbed a few bolted cracks in Europe, nobody complains.

Yet when some troll with their Petzel Gear gets all whinny about a bolted crack in a quarry in China, everyone goes all Ron Anderson. . .
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 17, 2014 - 10:52am PT
Okay Bullwinkle I'll get all Cali, new agey and say i'ts "one world." Which is pretty much true sbout climbing. In the sixties the British innovation of nuts transformed Yosemite and in the seventies visitng Euro climbers in Yosemite took home the concept that free climbing didn't include "french free."
Climbers travel internationally to a large degree and, to a great extent, form one large family. Various styles and ideas get exported and some become pretty much the normal, acceptable way of doing things. Sure, there are still differences but fewer every season.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jun 17, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
Let's say we take it to the extreme of one bolt next to a bomber cam placement on a six pitch route that's otherwise all bolted. In principle, should bolts never be placed next to gear placements, even in such a situation, and if it's ok here, where do you draw the line?

What if you bolted a pitch on a traditional climb so you didn't have to bring a bunch of big cams just for one pitch?

My buddy Kyle on Perry's Lieback. 11a Grand Wall Squamish.
Photographer unknown

But let's put it into context now. There was already a bolt ladder there put in on the fa and Perry decided to move to bolts over to that feature so we could freeclimb that pitch rather than a bolt ladder.

I think it's a case by case basis. Do i approve of bolting cracks in the smoke bluffs? Fvck no....

But i'm willing to be reasonable!!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jun 17, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
These guys think everyone needs to stop whining

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/664661/Classic-Czech-Climbing-History-1983
janeclimber

Ice climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2014 - 04:55pm PT
Bullwinkle,

I am Jane, the OP, who criticized sponsored athletes holding a low standard of climbing ethnic/style. Just in case you do not know, I am Chinese, to be more precise, I am Chinese American. I was born and raised in China but now I live in US and Canada and climb in US, Canada and China.

I like what Donini said about "One world". We share "one world"; Supertopo forum may have started by a bunch of American climbers, but by now, Supertopo forum is participated by climbers from all over the world with various shades of skin color and ethnic background.

Quote from Bullwinkle,
"Hello Yang Xiaohua, please remember that we Americans and Europeans Invented Rock Climbing and if you do not hold the same ethics and climb the way we do, you're evil. If you continue to Climb in a way that does not please our collective Egos, we shall do to you the same thing we do to all Brown People that question our beliefs, we shall invade your Country.

You have been warned, be like us, or we won't like, you. . .


Edit, I agree with you Jim, but I also feel that if rap bolting, hangdoging and aid climbing are acceptable, then why not bolted cracks? I've climbed a few bolted cracks in Europe, nobody complains.

Yet when some troll with their Petzel Gear gets all whinny about a bolted crack in a quarry in China, everyone goes all Ron Anderson. . ."
T H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Jun 26, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
... why Kauk didn't just bolt Magic Line instead of preplacing gear.
Maybe install a handrail next to it.
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