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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Hey locker was that from a movie ?
I need that on a t-shirt.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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This is not a women-friendly forum ...
Daphne, I will suggest that this is not a friendly form, period. Young squirts come here for some honest advice, and they get shamed within the first two minutes.
We used to have all sorts of folks posting here, climbing gods and neewbie mortals alike. It'd be interesting to see a graph of who posts now-a-days, and the number of posts made by the top posters, and the hate-to-love ratio of their posts.
But, I'm not going to deny your claim. On this forum, or out in the wild, men are dogs. Even here in progressive Santa Cruz, where we men cherish the soul of woman, the most zen-like man's eyes pop when a co-ed walks by in a mini-skirt.
I'm pretty sure it's innate. Nature or nuture? It's nature all the way, baby. And don't kid yourself, the majority of women in the western world play into the Cat & Dog game. Certainly it's sad, but in many places it's one of the keys that women use to have power over men. Your eyes are closed if you miss the game.
But you are 100% correct, in world of over-testosteronized men, such as the fish-bowl of boys roaming this forum, that cat & dog game can be over-played and pretty harsh in the result. Still, there's lots of good boys here who admire the inner beauty and strength of women even more than they admire their external beauty.
But that's not to say that we don't also admire them in their mini-skirts.
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Michelle
Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
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don't forget sandwich making.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Thanks, Daphne.
This thread has been so discouraging.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Its a common, regrettable theme across many climbing forums, actually, much of the internet. Thanks to Daphne, Seamstress, Michelle, and the rest for posting on the subject, sincerity requires bravery, and it's often punished.
Seamstress, you inspired me to read back through your TR's. It's true that JLP was an ass in your McKinley TR, but many many people appreciated all of your trip reports, and there are no lack of duffers here who also enjoy adventures that the hardcore might consider mundane, and we enjoy reading about that kind of trip too. Don't let a few jerks drive you to silence, most of us are not in their corner and don't want the anti social louts to "win".
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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It takes time, effort, thought, work to post trip reports and thoughtful comments. It takes no time or effort at all to post one liners, same photos over and over, insults and such. Just from a time and effort standpoint, people can write 100 noisy, nonsense posts in the time it takes for some one to write one interesting and honest post.
I laugh at the insults that fly back and forth, until they do not end. Then it is just depressing. But criticizing noise is a futile action, I think. Complaining about noise just creates more noise.
As we can find ways to support and encourage, just even respond to people who try to put some effort into their posts, then we might get more posts where people put some effort into them. I am not sure of the best ways to encourage people on supertopo. I have not used private messages much, but I might start sending thank yous out that way, so they don't get drowned in the noise.
There are some amazing gems of posts and links that I read here at times. Keeps me reading here on occasion, despite my better judgement.
I will agree with Off white. I love trip reports about average climbs and average people having interesting experiences.
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matisse
climber
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almost all the posts on this page of this thread and lots of other posts in other pages of this
thread insinuate that the only value women have to offer men on supertopo is what our bodies look like.
So Daphne kind of cuts to the heart of the matter, I think. I've played with boys a long time, I'm pretty thick skinned. I don't post here much mostly because I'm busy. I post mostly medical info and stuff that I know about, so that kind of limits the threads I participate in. I avoid posting in the general discussion type stuff mostly because I have to filter myself so heavily to avoid the usual scathing abuse you guys heap on each other, that it isn't fun. I don't get to be me. You guys play rough with each other. I've been flamed over a trip report for crissake. I deleted it.
On behalf of the men on this forum , forgive us for our tendency toward objectification, or don't. The fact is that as a woman you will not understand the male sexual drive mechanics. Or their inherent stupidity, or the male ego.
That is a total f*#king copout.
If you haven't spend time on social media lately you might spend some time with the #YesAllWomen hashtag. A response to "the not all men are like that" that surfaced after that entitled nutjob shot up UCSB, YesAllWomen is the idea that although not all men are crazed homicidal maniacs, ALL women can relate experiences of being blatantly harassed, or worse. much much worse. Men that pass harassment and misogyny and worse off as just boys will be boys even if they don't behave that way themselves perpetuate the problem.
ps Matisse = xx and not xy, if you haven't figured that out
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Michelle
Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
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Hey thanks for thanking me for being brave enough to post on an internet forum as a female
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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Locker, why did you post that photo? It's just a bloody sneaky sexist way to once more post halfnaked bodies of women, while trying to seem irreproachable doing it. What in Daphne's post did you not understand?
There has been inexcusable posts, like to have the gall to comment upon a another member's body, for instance. Not my achievements, not who I am, but how I look like. Go to hell loser, is my answer to that.
A woman was banned who protested against women being seen as an objects. Not one man who treat women both in general and as fellow members as objects they have a right to comment upon, has been banned. There has been sexually insinuating comments regarding underage daughters of several members, including my own daughter, and nothing happens even to those members who makes them.
One the other hand, I have been thinking it's been better this time around. Maybe because it was so very bad a year ago. Maybe because I choose more carefully nowadays what I'm interested in reading. There's plenty of fun, kind, interesting and intelligent people whose posts are a joy to read. And I love the positive responses when other members are encouraged. The spreaders of joy, the caring fellow members are the reason to be here. The companionships and the stories. All worth while.
Cheers to you, you good Supertopians! I raise my glass in respect!
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matisse
climber
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As others upthread pointed out, males and females are wired differently. Beta: deal with it.
Seems, too, a couple pussywhips have forgotten what it means to be male.
On the other hand, way to represent, Locker. :)
PS We're all objects. Objectification is such a bullshit term and concept, lay it to rest. Objects/animate and Objects/inanimate. Objects/male and Objects/female.
What are the lassies saying, females don't leverage guys as much? Please get real. Reciprocity is the basis of relationships. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Males are visual creatures, visually stimulated. That's the way we're wired. No apologies.
Women, too, have their gender-specific wiring. So it works both ways. Adapt.
Is this a climbing site or some old 19th century spinster site?
Wow. Well done! why women don't post here summarized in one post. congratulations high fructose.
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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I didn't think it was going to get worse, but not the first time I've been
surprised. Lack of awareness of entitlement, decency equals caving in,
being an as#@&%e is great, to be expected, you just gotta live with it, no,
wait, you're only imagining things anyway...
Thanks to Matisse, Lollie, Michelle, Daphne, Seamstress, Sullly.
When I read "on behalf of the men of this forum" or whatever the f*#k it was, it makes want to puke.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Thanks to Matisse, Lollie, Michelle, Daphne, Seamstress, Sullly.
+1.
add ekat, lynne, nita and tami as frequent posters. lady s as an occasional.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Thanks to matisse, Lollie, Michelle, Daphne, Seamstress, Sullly. and SCSeagoat, Crimpie etc.
I've always appreciated your posts, climbing and not.
I grew up in a male dominated society, in the Dark Ages of Salt Lake City where in many Mormon families, the men had all the power. I'm familiar with men objectifying women, including myself when in my adolescence and young adulthood. Slowly, largely with my Father's excellent example (I can't remember him EVER referring to a part of a woman's anatomy) and moving to the Bay Area, I outgrew it.
My Father did appreciate attractive women, much as my Mother would comment on attractive men. That had little or nothing to do with their preferences for opposite sex friends.
Men's objectification of women has nothing to do with "men are sexually different" and everything to do with enculturation and power.
Why until very recently have there been no women priests/bishops/etc in christian religions? Why are there still none in the Roman Catholic church?
Why can't Mormon women attain the priesthood?
Why are there still so many male politicians opposed to a woman's reproductive choices?
Men should appreciate women as equal to men in all except one extraordinary and very difficult thing only women can do. Childbirth. I don't see how any man who's participated in it can ever again think less of a women.
one final thought: some women are bitches, some men are arseholes. I've worked with both. They are quite equally obnoxious.
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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There's a lot of mansplaining on this thread.
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matisse
climber
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Perhaps a bit overly sensitive as well - perhaps like Matisse
sigh. let's review:
This thread started when someone posted essentially wondering why so few women posted on ST. This was follows by the inevitable pictures of hotties, and not so hotties, other assorted supertopo memes etc. A few women offered their opinion as to why they did or did not post.
to which your response was
Males are visual creatures, visually stimulated. That's the way we're wired. No apologies.
Women, too, have their gender-specific wiring. So it works both ways. Adapt.
Is this a climbing site or some old 19th century spinster site?
so you appeal to basic biology (i.e. boys will be boys) no apologies yet women have to adapt?
Then you insinuate that every woman who doesn't agree with your opinion is some sexually deprived or repressed or frustrated old woman. Even if they were, that would still be beside the point. The appeal to basic biology is a copout. since the basic biological success is living long enough and reproducing enough to pass your genes to the next generation, we transcend basic biology on multiple levels and in almost all aspects or our society. except, according to you, this one. Calling you on your bullshit does not make me overly sensitive, it just makes me calling you on your bullsh#t. is that so hard a concept?
Even my cat transcends basic biology when he learns to stay off the kitchen counters.
edited to add..hmm I wonder why the filters let me say sh#t the first time but not the second...
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Michelle
Social climber
1187 Hunterwasser
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Dude, locker. I don't get it man. Folks ask you to stop doing (whatever) and your response is usually confrontational and frequently disrespectful. Why is that? I'm just curious. I know from chatting with you that you're not really a major dick, so what gives?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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This is an old-man-dominated climbing site. This is not in dispute.
The question is: should it be this way?
Or should it function more like an in-person discussion,
where people behaving poorly are discouraged from participating?
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Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
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My female compatriots have said everything so well, nothing more can be said. This is the reason why I normally don't post on the argumentative threads. Arguing with a brick wall leaves me with bruises and the wall remains immutable in his opinion because he is personally attached to that opinion. My mind boggles at the reasoning for this attachment.
Someone deleted their posts from the beginning of the thread. I honor that person, whoever he is. I have this story running that he saw that women felt objectified by some content here and responded with kindness.
Thank you to the many men expressing support for me and all the other wonderful women posters here. Scuffy, Jaybro, DMT, apogee, HighTraverse, jammer, kaholatingtong, murcy-- I am feeling better just listing these fine men and I haven't even gotten to everyone who posted compassionately on this thread and who posts in general on supertopo. All gems.
Phylp, your comment regarding kindness is so reflective of your soulful heart. Michelle, the sandwich line was great. Likewise all the other women here-- I count myself in special company.
Matisse, so great, the line about training cats.
Humans have a prefrontal cortex that allow us to transcend the animal survival instincts of the mammalian brain. But the frontal brain (with its executive reasoning) isn't always online. We have to intend it to be. Mindfulness, consciousness, awareness of the personhood of others are qualities that make a being human a beautiful experience.
edit: if I didn't mention your name, it is simply that I didn't go through the whole thread. Happie, you are awesome. JohnEleazarian, you spoke truth early on here when you noted the blatant male chauvinism.
Also, I always think of LuckyPink in st discussions like this. She doesn't come around much anymore because the climate here isn't friendly. She is one of the women I miss most.
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