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weezy
climber
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Feb 24, 2013 - 05:05am PT
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i'm on your side, jim. sorry it came out wrong there. it's late and i'm drunk.
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Feb 24, 2013 - 05:46am PT
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Moss grows back, don't believe me, check out some of the old untraveled routes at Lover's Leap. SOme most likely put up by Royal.
Maybe the upper pitches of Corn Flake Crack on the North Side of Looking Glass. Untraveled traveled routes at Cathedral in New Hampshire.
Actually, just climb the routes and look left an right in most of those places and you'll see what just climbing the route will do over time.
Ethical. Unlike laws, Ethics have no defined cut and dry answers. In climbing, ethics are usually set up by the first climbers who wandered in and started developing routes.
I am partial to trad climbing on clean cracks, but I have done top down cleaning and bolting. Shoot, I've even rapped down to clean a crack then did the first ascent.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Feb 24, 2013 - 08:37am PT
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I did a very early ascent of Sons Of Yesterday. Gazillions of feet of compacted dirt had been rototilled out of that thing. In places, you'd plug into the splitter handcrack and could only go in so far 'cause you'd strike earth at 5 inches.
There's a common sense limit to gardening. Most people know where it lies, and for many it depends on how far away clean quality climbable rock is. Look at really old photos of the Cookie, and you can see the dirt hummocks growing out of climbs like Butterballs and Hardd. Worth digging for, I think.
I found a great boulder in LCC once that needed quite a bit of wirebrushing. After 10 minutes of scrubbing, I said f*#k this and came back with a cordless drill and a circular wirebrush attachment. Thing was ready to go in 10 minutes.
Micro biospheres in alpine environments -- beautiful, delicate, unique hanging gardens of fern and wildflower at 11,000 feet -- are an entirely different matter. Most folks know the difference without requiring an explanation. Some don't.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 24, 2013 - 08:38am PT
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There are no ethics in climbing.
Some climbers use the wording Ethics in an attempt to control others by calling their actions unethical.
Ethics is an unresolved topic in philosophy. Yet some climbers are foolish enough to suggest their behavior is ethical.
When will we start saying what we mean? "Removing lichen hurts my feelings because we are destroying life?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 24, 2013 - 08:53am PT
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In terms of environmentalism, I dont see the hammer and chisel as worse than a hammer and pitons, and definitely not worse than a Hilti hammer drill. The 'leave only footprints' ethic is a great thing and not really in snyc with the sport/gym mentality, but I think all the chipping gluing etc is pretty minor. We're talking about 10 foot high boulders, not multipitch crack climbs. What non climbers would notice are things like crowds, noise, and maybe white chalk prints all over the place on red colored rocks, like you see up on the Sanitas and other CO trails. No one's complaining except other climbers. I think everything will be ok.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
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Feb 24, 2013 - 09:04am PT
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All I know is, every time I pass boulders in Yosemite Valley that have been "cleaned" of that lovely long moss, it is obvious and disgusting. They look defaced. And that's to a climber, what do they look like to the GP, or do they notice?
And yeah, I've done some "gardening" and didn't like it much.
Seen plenty of naked stone too.
Nowdays, I just climb around the bushes and trees and try not to hurt them, not yank them out of my way!
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 24, 2013 - 09:43am PT
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Those that support cleaning loads of vegetation, pulling off loose rock, and building trials while in another thread bitch about Ivan and his removal of a very small amount of rock is the height of hypocrisy and is purely a climber problem (not ethics in any way).
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 24, 2013 - 10:20am PT
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Sculpting holds in rock is entirely different than uncovering it . It's one thing to knock off looseness that might kill someone, another entirely to literally sculpt the rock. Anyone who can't see that never climbed truly dirty rock. If you have to literally make a hold, it's not cleaning anymore.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 24, 2013 - 10:43am PT
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Yes, it is entirely different from a climber perspective, not so much in everyone else's perspective.
What impact do non-climbers see the most: chalk; yet, chalk is universally accepted by climbers.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 24, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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If you don't like the way someone does a route, do it before he has a chance to put it up, then it will be altered as you like it.
And then hope he (a mythical someone else) won't alter it?
Your complainers are a bunch of victims. Simply victims of your narcissism.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 24, 2013 - 10:56am PT
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Do people not know that wire brushing is the worse thing you can do to a climb? Take a untouched piece of rock and hit it with a wire brush till its clean, then take a stiff bristle or nylon brush and hit a section next to it. The wire brush puts a slick polish on the rock and holds that is permenant as it knocks off the fine grippy finish of the rock. The bristle/nylon leaves the grippy texture behind. Fairly substanial difference. I know I know, doing wilderness routes and walls, its not that big of a deal but people should know this, especially those that put up sport routes on crags. and yes, some rocks are more resistant to polishing then others, like sandstone.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 24, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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Here's a bit of food for thought...
Suppose that we stop the cleaning, gardening, and trail-building. Whatever good this might do for the forests of Western Canada, The US Pacific Northwest, Northeast, and Southeast, it would effectively end rockclimbing in those regions, and those of us who want to climb would have move to the US Southwest. Every one of the beautiful non-gardened climbs you are holding up as examples of the right way to do things would see its traffic doubled. There would be twice as many chalk marks in your favorite area. Twice as much sh#t in the woods, twice as much erosion on the trails...
Is that what you want?
And to all those who believe that trail-building, scrubbing, and gardening are wrong, please come up to the PNW or Southwest BC. The locals will be happy to give you a little tour. After you've done that, then maybe you'll have something to base your opinions on, and we'll listen.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Feb 24, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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Ghost you moss killer! Take it easy on the logic here! Me & Luke r goin scrubbing in a bit. Perhaps I'll provide a live report to help troll this thing along. Putting blanket statements on route cleaning for the entire climbing community with all it's thousands of different diverse landscapes & ecosystems is borderline ret- er ummm nevermind.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 24, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
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Borderline all by itself has kept at least 11 people in Canada and pulled in a few visitors from the States. Candle in the Rain needs more work. Please come back up here and fix it up, Ghost.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 24, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
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I've put up problems on grainite, sandstone, limestone, quartzite, volcanics, and salt encrusted fault scarp fubar. Around Tahoe I usually stick to a stiff nylon brush and whatever I can find on the forest floor (dead wood and snow) when I'm cleaning. At Ibex I don't remember needing anything more than a toof brush. Out in the west desert of Utah I found a small paint scraper helped with the 1-5 mm scales of rotten grainite... but it made me a little sick to do it. If you use a wire brush on soft sandstone you DESTROY the holds. etc.
Different techniques for different stone... but NEVER have I seen a case where a FUKING CHISEL AND HAMMER are needed for ANY REASON other than to satisfy a selfish ego by creating artificial holds. MAYBE a pry bar to liberate a flexing flake/block over 50 lbs that you can't pull of with your bare hands.
I love in Squamish how the tops of many boulder problems have a ~6" circle of moss scrubbed out. That sh#t will grow back in no time... probably a season or two of no activity. Not the case in other environments though.
(I was sleeping under a boulder one night in Squeemish ('07) when folks were cleaning sh#t off a climb... trundling what sounded like 100+ lb blocks off something over near Freeway me thinks. Twas sketchy, but not as sketchy as the thought of those 1' slugs joining me in my sleeping bag.)
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 25, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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Ghost you moss killer! Take it easy on the logic here
My apologies. I forgot for a moment that I was posting on the internet.
Maybe what I should have said was "My name is David, and I am a scrubaholic." Then gone into a long rant about knowing what a sh#t I am, but being unable to help myself. Swearing I will go clean, but then seeing a dirt, root, and moss-filled granite splitter and losing all control. Saying, "Oh, I'll just dig out one jam, you know, just for old times sake, but that's all." But, just as always was the case, I'm soon slung about with saws, hammers, screwdrivers, wire brushes, crowbars, and old ice hammers; and headed up a rope I fixed when I thought no one was looking...
Nah. F*#k it. Why pretend? I love it.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Feb 25, 2013 - 12:40am PT
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Haha ghost, too funny.
Hey Andy what's candle in the rain??
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MH2
climber
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:03am PT
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Candle in the Rain
described in Mclane 2005 as 1 pitch 5.9 10m on Olesen Creek Bluffs Main Wall (a bit right of Wiretap)
an unfinished Ghost project which may require a chainsaw on the approach
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:21am PT
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Thanks Andy! Looks pretty cool actually, some quality stone. What's the deal with that thing Ghost? As the FA'ist would you give us permission to go up there with chainsaws & wire brushes & Ice hammers & rappel powered drills to do a little cleanup??
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jul 27, 2016 - 07:36am PT
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The contrast between cavers and climbers is interesting.
Cavers will go to great pains to rig a rappel to avoid disturbing a spider web.
Would climbers do the same?
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