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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 18, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
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More of a rant, I suppose....
No Permanent Address is a fairly new climbing movie. I saw it recently, and was bothered by some of the ethical behavior throughout.
The “plot” goes something like this:
Some guy is trying to get in shape for a FA of a wall in BC (forgive me for not remembering his name). So he travels around the country, meeting up with different people, and climbing on all different types of stone. When he feels as if his training is complete he returns to BC and finishes of the route.
Thus, the route in BC is the climax of the movie, and basically the reason the film was made.
A bit of the movie documents some of the effort that goes into the FA of this wall. The narrator says something like “the first time we hiked to the base it took over three hours, but once we cut a trail we could hike in in 45 minutes” and the film shows them with machetes, thrashing through a forest and cutting a highway to base of the climb.
They also talk a bit about the extensive cleaning that went into the climb. They talk about the hours of hard work they spent scraping moss and lichen from the rock in order to make it climbable. And the film documents this, as they hang on ropes and attack the rock with wire brushes.
Since the climax of the movie is the completion of this wall, it seems as if the film is sort of glorifying this behavior.
In order for this wall to go free, the hero had to spend a ton of time climbing, and a ton of time gardening. And the gardening is done in a very “matter of fact” way. That’s just how things are done in the rock climbing game, apparently.
Now I understand that not everyone lives by the “Leave no trace” ethic. And I’m OK with that. I also understand that BC is very green, with lots of trees, underbrush, moss, lichen, etc... From their perspective, gardening is a necessary evil.
But here’s my problem:
Should a professionally filmed, big-name climbing movie be glorifying this? Should they be condoning this type of behavior?
Obviously behavior like this happens, and it’s going to continue happening. But it seems like it has always been very hush-hush. The perpetrators keep it quiet, as they are embarrassed by their actions. And they should be! They know they doing something wrong.
Potter left a large pile of sh#t strung all over Mt Watkins. If they made a movie about his ascent of that, do you think that part of the story would have been chalked up as “training”? Would it have even made it into the movie? He was too embarrassed to even return to retrieve his stuff!
And in the “Big Wall Ethics” thread, deuce4 regrettably tells the tale of the few times he has “sculpted” the rock. It’s not something he is proud of, and he offers these tales in what is seemingly an apology to the rock climbing community.
In the past, climbers have done some questionable things. Things they weren’t proud of. And this information has a way of finding it’s way to throughout the climbing community. The perpetrators are then chastised, and we all learn from their mistakes and try to live by a higher standard.
Yet somehow, the makers (and sponsors) of “No Permanent Address” condone the mentality that it is OK for rock climbers to scar, chisel, garden, scrape, and kill. That’s just the nature of the beast, and if we want to climb the rock we need to bring it down to our level. Right?
Is this the voice of the next generation?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:07pm PT
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Yes. Did they? No. No. Yes. Yes, and previous ones.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:27pm PT
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Hmm. I think you can be pretty confident that a huge number of climbs had to have moss scraped off and dirt and vegetation removed from cracks, etc. In fact, I'd venture to say that there wouldn't *be* much climbing outside of limestone without a reasonable amount of cleaning.
Would some FA'ers chime in here? I've always assumed that this sort of thing has to happen in order for it to be climbable a lot of the time.
As far as carving the trail to the base, that does seem like it could be a bit questionable...
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Blumsky
Trad climber
Winston-Salem
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:27pm PT
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cleaning of a route to make it climbable is pretty much S.O.P. where i live, i don't know about the rest of the country. . . as are climbers trails . . .
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:31pm PT
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F*#king Christ... I hate mother f*#king "climbing" and "ethics"! ALL you f*#kers do is bitch bitch bitch...
Have fun, if that means top down and rap bolting then whatever! I've done it and will scrub and rap bolt all the sh#t I want to. Are you doing new routes in the northwest... oh wait I already know the answer... it's a definate NO...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
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Uh, sometimes I blow the dirt out of a crack before setting a cam. Once I used a nut tool to scrape out some mud.
If I were a witch, I would have used my broom once to knock all the pine straw off the little edges.
And on the Apron, sometimes the little finger-nail thick veneer just flaked off when I weighted it!
Let's switch to
ANOTHER ETHNIC PROBLEM
It has not been beat to death, by people who do not even understand the meaning of ethics.
Besides, it fits nicely with the first half of the topic.
And it would give matty and fatty another thread in which to misbehave.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Aug 18, 2006 - 11:29pm PT
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It might be an ethnic problem, but some climbs, especially in South America have jungle ratings. Not many people climb those routes. Cleaner is better. Cams in moss = A4+++. If the route is quality and gets climbed often it stays clean. If not, jungle re-claims it, no biggie. Heck, they keep finding entire ancient cities under that stuff. Not much different in BC I guess. There's tons of dirty granite in the Sierra, nobody wants to climb it, except in a few places where it's actually darn gneiss rock under there. Here on the coast? The rocks come with winter coats. They climb better stark naked. Gotta ask yourself, does the quality/quantity justify the dirty labor and removal of material. Moss ain't endangered ya know? Usually it isn't worth it though. Gotta have some amount of judgment. My local crag in the woods grows over again in a season. Wire brush is S.O.P., no worries there. Don't tell anyone.
...back to regular programming...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 18, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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The quality of new thread posting has dropped severly recently.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2006 - 12:04am PT
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dirtineye,
have you contributed anything worthwhile recently? Ever?
Would it make you happy if I took your approach and started stalking and harrassing women?
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Ropeburn
Trad climber
Riverside, CA
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Aug 19, 2006 - 01:13am PT
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I don't know about everyone else, but I feel bad for the lichen that was scraped from the rock. Is it able to fall down and re-attach to other rocks below or does it just lay there and die?
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Aug 19, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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I think if it falls upside down, then it lays there and dies. If it falls right side up and maybe lands on a good substrate that it can attach to, then it might survive.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 19, 2006 - 01:38am PT
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I'm not sure if this thread is about ethics, behaviours, or environmental impacts. They can easily become blurred. It may in fact be more about context.
There is enormous potential for climbing in the Eldred Valley, where Return to Sender was filmed - if it didn't rain quite so much! But it is often dry for extended periods in the summer, and there have even been magazine articles about it. There are a reasonable number of established routes, trails to the bases of the major cliffs, and a climbers' campground. We do a volunteer weekend there every spring, to trail build. (All approved by the Ministry of Forests.)
Vancouver is at the southern edge of the coastal temperate rainforest, which extends to and past the Alaska panhandle. The city gets about 100 cm of rain a year. Nearly twice that in Squamish. In the Eldred Valley, where Return to Sender was filmed, they probably get 300 cm or more of rain a year. The result is a very resilient, fast-growing rain forest. Activities that would be appalling somewhere like Yosemite, with a more sensitive environment, and far more visitors, have no significant impact in the Eldred. (Hundreds of thousands of visitors/year versus 50, perhaps 100.) That's not a license for stupidity - but in context of the area, the impact is trivial.
I've climbed a little in the Eldred Valley (about 50 km inland from Powell River), and have done some trailbuilding there. I'm also slightly acquainted with filmmaker Jean Gamilovskij, have been climbing at Squamish for many years, and created or helped create several routes there.
For practical purposes, virtually all cracks at Squamish, and even more so in the Eldred, that are less than vertical are full of dirt and vegetation. Up to and including trees. Similarly, most rock that is less than vertical has at least some lichen, and in wet areas may be moss covered.
It is very difficult, usually impossible, to create new routes at Squamish without cleaning. Even more so in the Eldred. Rappelling, removing dirt and vegetation from cracks, scrubbing off moss and lichen. Virtually all routes now climbed at Squamish were established in that manner, or in a few cases as aid climbs that were eventually freed.
The trail to "Return to Sender" was built through logging slash. The area was clearcut 20 or 30 years ago, and replanted. Old growth forest usually offers easy travel - little undergrowth. Once an area is logged, the situation is chaotic, and rapid growth of the understory adds to it. Full on jungle is the best analogy - we grade bushwhacks as well as climbs here. Access to Return to Sender would be impossible without a trail, and building one requires a fair effort. The impact is negligible in terms of the area's climate and biogeoclimatic situation, and the low human usage of the area.
There is a management plan for the Stawamus Chief, which is a provincial park. Developed with climbers. The plan, and associated rock climbing strategy, explicitly recognize cleaning as an accepted tactic for new routes. No one here has ever pretended otherwise, and in any case it long predates creation of the park.
There are photos of the Stawamus Chief from the 1920s, with far less vegetation then than now. The reasons may include a major forest fire in the 1850s, which burned much of the area, or perhaps warmer winters and so less snow and falling ice.
There are routes at Squamish cleaned and climbed in the 1970s and 1980s that are no recognizable. They didn't catch on, and without traffic there's nothing to hold back the jungle. Even well travelled routes occasionally require work.
I don't mean to suggest that climbers have no environmental impacts, in the Eldred, Squamish, or elsewhere. In context of the area's environments, they're both manageable and managed.
Anders
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Aug 19, 2006 - 01:35pm PT
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Anders, it seems to me that most of the Apron would have been moss filled cracks before the first ascents? I was just in Squamish 2 weeks ago,{those of you that haven't been should go.} and would say that the vast majority of the climbs have been resurrected from moss and dirt. What percentage of the climbs were previous dirt holes before becoming classics like Diedre, Rock on, Crime of the century, Kalahni{sp}? crack, Calculaus crack? Keep us posted on access isssues as they arise up there. Cheers, James
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doc bs
Social climber
Northwest
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Aug 19, 2006 - 02:51pm PT
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The WA state and national forest services often make painfully long switch back trails at great expense (trails you could push a babycarriage up) avoiding the direct route...
In WA jungle, direct trails CAN lead to new creeks which eventually erode and become gullies.
Making a new direct trail for a TV show - without consideration for the environment is not a good example of stewardship.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Aug 19, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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Dear Andanother
Thanks for posting an ethics thread. Appreciate your purist (and non-elitist) approach to climbing. I haven't done much climbing in California, but isn't the rock in Yosemite, Tuolumne etc. usually pretty clean anyway?
On some Planet Earth rocks, however, it may be gardening or nothing. The California contribution in climbing is soundly established and well noted but all mountain adventure should not and cannot be interpreted through California practices and standards.
That time you caught me on Trough of Justice with five pounds of axle grease you had good cause to demand my banishment from the Valley of the Gods, but if you happen to see me slaying moss in humble Darby Canyon, please be a little more charitable. Okay,Okay! -- if the Forest Service posts signs forbiding it, I might comply. (But then, you yourself said I could read but couldn't comprehend.)
Also, since the nights are a little cooler were getting along a little better, could you show Dear Dirtineye a little more Christmas spirit, too. Since the egalitarians found out my dad worked in a nuclear power plant, and Jody saw the wine drinking picture, Dirt's the only one on ST who still talks to me!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 19, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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Dearest andanother, yes, I have contributed substantially to climbing, in fund raising, trailwork, new routes and new climber education, most likely far more than a snide nasty jerkoff like you ever will, I do not harass women, and yes, you are a fvcking a$$hole.
BUT you fail miserably as a troll. Lame is the proper word for you in that regard.
Jennie, I'll always talk to you darlin. You are a breath of fresh air. Here's wishing more women would be as straight forward as you are, and not turn tail and run, or hide behind a false front.
May your sarcasm never fade and your edge never dull.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2006 - 04:46pm PT
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Jennie,
I just found it ironic that he made a comment about the "quality of new thread posting", so I had to give him a hard time. As for the stalking/harrassing comment I made, well, that's nothing new to him. He has a bit of a reputation for being a weirdo and a stalker. And, no, I'm not just being mean here. Be careful around that guy. I'm sure there are a few women on this site (and rockclimbing.com) that can fill in more details.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Aug 19, 2006 - 05:17pm PT
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OK guys. I don't want to take sides but I understand the tit for tat business, cause I've gotten into it with both of you in the past. But like I said, the nights are getting cooler and I wish all of us (incuding me) could take a little edge off our posts.
Chances are, if both of you were acquainted in the flesh, you might be the best of friends. I can't preach cause I've stirred up bruhahas myself, here. But I wish we could avoid the really nasty stuff. A little sarcasm and ribbing is reasonable but the fighting words could bring the forum down.
I've offended a number of people, here, not really intending to. So I'm try to measure my words a little more carefully. If I get close to the edge again, you're both licensed to remind me.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 19, 2006 - 07:04pm PT
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We have been cleaning and in other ways, preparing, routes in Yosemite for forty years and more. Some of the really famous climbs, some of the best, most valuable climbs, have received treatment. And this treatment has even gone so far as to alter the rock itself in minor ways sometimes. Gripper, Outer Limits, Towers of Geek climbs, Peter Left, Wheat Thin, some other routes in Cookie area---hundreds of free climbs---and many of the modern big walls. Almost always it was brushing out lichen/moss, digging dirt and gravel out, getting rid of dangerous loose rock. But in some instances it has included pitoning a crack to enhance fingertip pockets, either intentionally or through time and use.
And there have of course been the hold-makers, like Jardine and even Bridwell, who thought that they were in the position to actually install finger and footholds where they thought there were none or that ones were needed “today”. It was not just out of heavy competition that this has happened, it is also out of their sense of hegemony over not only climbers of their time, but also all future climbers...as the rock is then altered for time out of mind.
I can’t imagine someone looking up at the Nose, and knowing that he had actually chiseled a route across part of its most beautiful terrain 26 years ago as if making steps in ice. I suppose one would only be able to laugh ironically. We leave a trace always, regardless, it is just a question of how much of a trace and is it reasonable.
This thread is mostly about just cleaning. Tearing out a small habitat, and replacing it with us, our occasional presence. I think the measure is not so much an ethical one as it a question of reasonable benefit. For example if the Salathe wall or another great and historic climb, was surrounded by dense jungle, it would be reasonable to make access to it through the jungle, so we could add the climb to human joy and history. If a hideous, pointless little 100-footer pile of choss was surrounded by jungle, it would not be reasonable to even take the effort to get to its base and to have hacked a big-ass path to it, a shocking demonstration of pointless power and bad taste. So obviously there has to be some thought of benefit, value and simple taste. Fortunately laziness and entropy here benefits taste, unusually .
We gain from most of our better cleaning projects. But as we all know, especially today, there are some dumb climbs cleaned out for a brief period of time, only to get someone’s name in history and to help the FA party grow in ways, and then neglected, it vegetates back over again, forgotten or at least laughed at. Unfortunately this kind of activity also alarms the agencies that are responsible for these natural resources, and in cases has fed arguments to terminate climbing.
Andanother raises the question whether the movie No Permanent Address should show site and access preparation in the manner it does. Doesn’t it encourage further “unethical” use of the land and so forth. And he implies that because historically this activity has been secretive, it has been either thus kept in check somewhat or otherwise in no way encouraging bad judgement in younger generations. He does not propose to ban the film, it is just an idle conversation into which he invites us. He worries that it may serve as a “how-to” for younger enthusiasts. And yeah, it probably does, and it certainly doesn’t serve as a lesson in “leave no trace”. And finally, it does have to worry one, about our future, a little bit. But this has to be the first film showing the seamy underside of our sport, albeit in a light that is championing something that heretofore was nearly secret, kind of like stagecraft---you never see how they build the sets for a theater production, you just enjoy the illusion, in this case, of a simple clean ascent of a wild natural part of the world.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Aug 19, 2006 - 07:17pm PT
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Peter,
(For my own particular education,) your post speaks volumes. I've been to Yosemite but really not climbed anything big. It makes sense that significant route cleaning goes on there, too.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 19, 2006 - 07:55pm PT
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Off White posted this in a different thread
It is a wonderful climbing area near the drier part of the North Cascades.
See the slanting white line through the black lichen? It is a 11a ish finger crack.
Thats kind of what you are talking about when it comes to rainy environments (and really, the summers are pretty dry).
Not all environments produce nice clean rock that does not need cleaning. In fact, many of the most famous sport areas in the West (AF, Smith) required extensive choss cleaning. I guess the alternative is to not climb.
One time many many years ago I was on a beautiful new route at around 11000 feet. There was a beautiful crack with cool little flowers growing in it. I was able to climb around them without any gardening. It just seemed like the thing to do. But I have also pulled some moss here and there. Been too lazy to do full on gardening.
The fact is, we are increasing green house gases by breathing. We erode trails by hiking, foul the air by driving, foul the water by shitting. And waste bandwidth by posting...
EDIT
Location is Washington Pass, WA, near Liberty Bell. The specific rock is North Early Winter Spire, or NEWS for short. Thanks to Off White for photo cred...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Aug 19, 2006 - 08:54pm PT
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Not to mention wearying the Gods by praying.....
Good post...I'm in the throes of Cascade nostalgia.
(Speaking of gardening. have you been on Snow Creek Wall (near Leavenworth)?
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 19, 2006 - 09:16pm PT
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LOL, andanother--
Yet one more faceles nameless gutless wanker making false accusations, most likely at the behest of the disturbed and total nutjob.
IN ohter worda, a lackry if he is not actually the nutjob himself.
You fools can keep repeating it til somone acts on your BS. Once that happens, your a$$ is mine. When and if real damages occur based on your nonsense, I just hope you have real assets.
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nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 20, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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dirtineye:
Yet one more faceles nameless gutless wanker making false accusations, most likely at the behest of the disturbed and total nutjob.
IN ohter worda, a lackry if he is not actually the nutjob himself.
Are you referring to a different nutjob? I'm not faceless, or gutless. check out my 2nd ascent picture in this thread:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=241060&f=0&b=0
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john hansen
climber
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Aug 20, 2006 - 09:29pm PT
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I remember reading about Robbins on the Arches Direct where he described sailing tons of weeds and dirt down the wall in his quest for a dirty 5.8 A4 route. It was done again by Kor and quickly faded into obscurity.
You can see the wear of thousands of passages up Serinity cracks from 1/2 a mile away. Many routes are like that.
Becky said of alot of his routes in the cascades that the hardes't part was just getting to the climb.
At many popular cliffs you can see where the ground has eroded away from the face leaving 2 or 3 feet of newly exposed rock.
Im not making judgements.
Does any one have a picture of Jardines traverse?
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Aug 20, 2006 - 09:57pm PT
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Wow, this really is about ethics.
Cleaning rocks is not a crime. Cutting footpaths through forests isn't either. Hounding some dude for his private life dramas should be, unless he brings it up.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 20, 2006 - 10:01pm PT
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NO nutjob, not you, oops sorry bout that.
There's another, andanother, bigger, better nutjob out there.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 20, 2006 - 10:16pm PT
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Actually cintune, I've cut a lot of paths and cleaned a LOT of rock.
Ain't no ethical problem with cleaning a route or getting to it either.
This is a fvcked up thread by a fvcked up individual, who has no credibility whatsoever.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 20, 2006 - 10:31pm PT
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huh?
how is this a "fvucked up thread"? It's a legitimate question, in my opinion. And many people have responded with legitimate answers. What's fvucked up about that?
As for my credibility, how does that matter? I asked some questions, stated a few opinions, and people responded. I never claimed to have any "credibility". I just said I saw the movie, and had a few opinions about it.
People responded.
It has been a learning experience for me, as I was unaware of much of this.
Because I have no "credibility" I can't ask questions?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2006 - 10:33pm PT
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Don't listen to Dirtineye, he's nuts himself.
hahaha ........
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 20, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
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When I saw the thread title I thought that Bush may be calling homeless people unethical, whoa geez another political thread...
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Relic
Social climber
Vancouver, BC
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Feb 23, 2013 - 06:57pm PT
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lulz.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 23, 2013 - 07:15pm PT
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HAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!! TOO FUNNY!!!!!!
A bit of the movie documents some of the effort that goes into the FA of this wall. The narrator says something like “the first time we hiked to the base it took over three hours, but once we cut a trail we could hike in in 45 minutes” and the film shows them with machetes, thrashing through a forest and cutting a highway to base of the climb.
They also talk a bit about the extensive cleaning that went into the climb. They talk about the hours of hard work they spent scraping moss and lichen from the rock in order to make it climbable. And the film documents this, as they hang on ropes and attack the rock with wire brushes.
Since the climax of the movie is the completion of this wall, it seems as if the film is sort of glorifying this behavior.
In order for this wall to go free, the hero had to spend a ton of time climbing, and a ton of time gardening. And the gardening is done in a very “matter of fact” way. That’s just how things are done in the rock climbing game, apparently.
Now I understand that not everyone lives by the “Leave no trace” ethic. And I’m OK with that. I also understand that BC is very green, with lots of trees, underbrush, moss, lichen, etc... From their perspective, gardening is a necessary evil.
But here’s my problem:
Should a professionally filmed, big-name climbing movie be glorifying this? Should they be condoning this type of behavior?
Have you ever been to BC????? If you don't clean it, you can't climb it, or it's not very fun at least.. Wanna climb dirt and moss? Go right ahead. If it doesn't get climbed around here it will grow over in a couple of years!!
My buddy Relic had a major part in the production and filming of this flick. He finally sent me a link to the full meal deal last night.
Here is the trailer;
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Full Video
http://www.ulozto.net/xMQ7LeC/no-permanent-address-climbing-video-avi
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Feb 23, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
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Yeah the OP don't know sh#t here, good movie.
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Feb 23, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
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I've cleaned my fair share of routes and carved enough trail through the jungle that if I never tough a machete again, it will be to soon.
While climbing in Okinawa, I was climbing at a cliff I had carved the trail established about 40 routes. Tropical jungle meant a lot of cleaning mosses and getting dirt of of cracks. With few climbers originally, it also meant I had to climb all the routes regularly.
One day, I was running laps with my soloist when two American climbers from California, stationed there with the marine corp, came up. I was showing them around and they were syked. Both spent a lot of time climbing in Tahoe and Yosemite.
We climb together on the wall a few time over the next couple of weeks, when I recruited them for a new wall I had found.
Both showed up in the morning, I handed out machetes so we could carve a trail good enough for climbers to hike in, and we headed out. Once we reached the wall, I took a lunch break and started cleaning the base.
One of them quit, walked out and waited a few hours at the car. He was upset that we were cleaning the wall so extensively. He even said walls should be clean like "Manure Pile" in Yosemite. When I explain the the pile was so clean because of the traffic it saw, he got irate and never climb with us again. Another 60 routes routes went up, he didn't climb the entire two years he had left on Okinawa.
The people who seem to complain the most about the cleaning are the one who have never seen a new cliff before it was developed. Even if cracks in Yosemite were not cleaned on purpose, decades of climbing them has removed ever bit of dust, dirt, and vegetation from them.
Cleaning is part of climbing. Carving trails is part of accessing cliffs. Check out the death slabs and see if they look like the other rock at the same again around Yosemite. Especially where climbers go up and down. You can spot Royal Arches from across the valley, the base of El-cap is three people with haul-bags wide.
From a first ascent point of view, my dream would be to find a cliff that needs no approach trail cut, not moss vegetation clean, not gardening inside the cracks, no loose rock to remove, and good places to put the gear.
It's easy to criticize what others do.
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sempervirens
climber
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Feb 24, 2013 - 12:00am PT
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Most of the posts here avoid the question of ethics of cleaning. Without cleaning many climbs would be nearly impossible, or even absolutely impossible. But does that in itself answer the question, should we do it? If so then we'd be able to answer any environmental ethical dilemma the same way. For example, without this new road we can't harvest the timber, without harvesting old growth redwood my new siding would have too many knots- it would bow and crack. Without imported oil I couldn't drive to Yosemite. We could justify anything with that kind of logic.
I don't propose to quit climbing to conserve all lichen and moss. Or to quit driving my truck to reduce wars in the middle east. There are problems with that logic too. I'll propose a realistic approach: find out more about your impact before you act. Are those rare plants you're pulling out? How long did it take for them to grow there? A wheelbarrow sized clump of grasses and sedges on El Cap might be hundreds of years old, should we toss it off just so we can climb? Will it ever grow back? Wouldn't it be better to learn about it first? What species? How does it reproduce? How fast does it grow? Is it native or non-native? How does it disperse its seeds or spores?
Then you can make an informed decision and you (or the land manager) might decide to conserve an important resource. A route could be closed until after a plant sets seeds similar to the perigrine falcon closures.
Comments..... anyone.
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skywalker
climber
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Feb 24, 2013 - 12:12am PT
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I don't think you'll ever solve this problem. In my area there is the "sport crag" locals understand the controversy of this place. North Table Mountain wierdness to name a few. I don't understand the draw of these places but I'm glad they are available for ALOT of people.
But getting back to your post. I think it is B.S. Again I don't think the problem will ever be solved either. One time I lived in a place back East that has incredible boulder problems and hundreds of thousands of them! Never heard of it??? Good! But in my ambitions to put up this spectacular V4- I went with a wire brush and removed about 500 yrs worth of lichen and moss to climb my "master piece". Stepping back ready to smile and show it to the "world" I looked at it...wanted to put the moss back on and dart away. It was like a reverse skid mark! I never did that again. I'm sure its covered in moss and erased but in my heart I knew I'd done wrong.
I don't think we can expect everyone to see things through the same lens but I don't think you causing a stink about this is in the least bit a rant, its telling the truth and expressing your opinion and I agree and support and love the lichen, moss, and any human that wants to climb pass them gently without injuring them.
My $0.02
S...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 24, 2013 - 03:59am PT
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Will it ever grow back?
If you are in BC yes, it will. There are climbs here less than 10 years old that have not been repeated often enough which have all but disappeared. Maybe in Cali it's different, but here as Kevin Mclane says in his Squamish guide book, "The Trees are Winning!!".
There are lots of more important issues in this world to focus this kind of energy on.
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weezy
climber
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Feb 24, 2013 - 04:21am PT
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aka white people problems
next up: chipping
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weezy
climber
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Feb 24, 2013 - 05:05am PT
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i'm on your side, jim. sorry it came out wrong there. it's late and i'm drunk.
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
Asia, Indonesia, East Java
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Feb 24, 2013 - 05:46am PT
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Moss grows back, don't believe me, check out some of the old untraveled routes at Lover's Leap. SOme most likely put up by Royal.
Maybe the upper pitches of Corn Flake Crack on the North Side of Looking Glass. Untraveled traveled routes at Cathedral in New Hampshire.
Actually, just climb the routes and look left an right in most of those places and you'll see what just climbing the route will do over time.
Ethical. Unlike laws, Ethics have no defined cut and dry answers. In climbing, ethics are usually set up by the first climbers who wandered in and started developing routes.
I am partial to trad climbing on clean cracks, but I have done top down cleaning and bolting. Shoot, I've even rapped down to clean a crack then did the first ascent.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Feb 24, 2013 - 08:37am PT
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I did a very early ascent of Sons Of Yesterday. Gazillions of feet of compacted dirt had been rototilled out of that thing. In places, you'd plug into the splitter handcrack and could only go in so far 'cause you'd strike earth at 5 inches.
There's a common sense limit to gardening. Most people know where it lies, and for many it depends on how far away clean quality climbable rock is. Look at really old photos of the Cookie, and you can see the dirt hummocks growing out of climbs like Butterballs and Hardd. Worth digging for, I think.
I found a great boulder in LCC once that needed quite a bit of wirebrushing. After 10 minutes of scrubbing, I said f*#k this and came back with a cordless drill and a circular wirebrush attachment. Thing was ready to go in 10 minutes.
Micro biospheres in alpine environments -- beautiful, delicate, unique hanging gardens of fern and wildflower at 11,000 feet -- are an entirely different matter. Most folks know the difference without requiring an explanation. Some don't.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 24, 2013 - 08:38am PT
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There are no ethics in climbing.
Some climbers use the wording Ethics in an attempt to control others by calling their actions unethical.
Ethics is an unresolved topic in philosophy. Yet some climbers are foolish enough to suggest their behavior is ethical.
When will we start saying what we mean? "Removing lichen hurts my feelings because we are destroying life?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 24, 2013 - 08:53am PT
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In terms of environmentalism, I dont see the hammer and chisel as worse than a hammer and pitons, and definitely not worse than a Hilti hammer drill. The 'leave only footprints' ethic is a great thing and not really in snyc with the sport/gym mentality, but I think all the chipping gluing etc is pretty minor. We're talking about 10 foot high boulders, not multipitch crack climbs. What non climbers would notice are things like crowds, noise, and maybe white chalk prints all over the place on red colored rocks, like you see up on the Sanitas and other CO trails. No one's complaining except other climbers. I think everything will be ok.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Where the Hoback and the mighty Snake River meet
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Feb 24, 2013 - 09:04am PT
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All I know is, every time I pass boulders in Yosemite Valley that have been "cleaned" of that lovely long moss, it is obvious and disgusting. They look defaced. And that's to a climber, what do they look like to the GP, or do they notice?
And yeah, I've done some "gardening" and didn't like it much.
Seen plenty of naked stone too.
Nowdays, I just climb around the bushes and trees and try not to hurt them, not yank them out of my way!
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 24, 2013 - 09:43am PT
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Those that support cleaning loads of vegetation, pulling off loose rock, and building trials while in another thread bitch about Ivan and his removal of a very small amount of rock is the height of hypocrisy and is purely a climber problem (not ethics in any way).
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 24, 2013 - 10:20am PT
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Sculpting holds in rock is entirely different than uncovering it . It's one thing to knock off looseness that might kill someone, another entirely to literally sculpt the rock. Anyone who can't see that never climbed truly dirty rock. If you have to literally make a hold, it's not cleaning anymore.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Feb 24, 2013 - 10:43am PT
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Yes, it is entirely different from a climber perspective, not so much in everyone else's perspective.
What impact do non-climbers see the most: chalk; yet, chalk is universally accepted by climbers.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Feb 24, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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If you don't like the way someone does a route, do it before he has a chance to put it up, then it will be altered as you like it.
And then hope he (a mythical someone else) won't alter it?
Your complainers are a bunch of victims. Simply victims of your narcissism.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 24, 2013 - 10:56am PT
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Do people not know that wire brushing is the worse thing you can do to a climb? Take a untouched piece of rock and hit it with a wire brush till its clean, then take a stiff bristle or nylon brush and hit a section next to it. The wire brush puts a slick polish on the rock and holds that is permenant as it knocks off the fine grippy finish of the rock. The bristle/nylon leaves the grippy texture behind. Fairly substanial difference. I know I know, doing wilderness routes and walls, its not that big of a deal but people should know this, especially those that put up sport routes on crags. and yes, some rocks are more resistant to polishing then others, like sandstone.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 24, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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Here's a bit of food for thought...
Suppose that we stop the cleaning, gardening, and trail-building. Whatever good this might do for the forests of Western Canada, The US Pacific Northwest, Northeast, and Southeast, it would effectively end rockclimbing in those regions, and those of us who want to climb would have move to the US Southwest. Every one of the beautiful non-gardened climbs you are holding up as examples of the right way to do things would see its traffic doubled. There would be twice as many chalk marks in your favorite area. Twice as much sh#t in the woods, twice as much erosion on the trails...
Is that what you want?
And to all those who believe that trail-building, scrubbing, and gardening are wrong, please come up to the PNW or Southwest BC. The locals will be happy to give you a little tour. After you've done that, then maybe you'll have something to base your opinions on, and we'll listen.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Feb 24, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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Ghost you moss killer! Take it easy on the logic here! Me & Luke r goin scrubbing in a bit. Perhaps I'll provide a live report to help troll this thing along. Putting blanket statements on route cleaning for the entire climbing community with all it's thousands of different diverse landscapes & ecosystems is borderline ret- er ummm nevermind.
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MH2
climber
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Feb 24, 2013 - 02:39pm PT
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Borderline all by itself has kept at least 11 people in Canada and pulled in a few visitors from the States. Candle in the Rain needs more work. Please come back up here and fix it up, Ghost.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 24, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
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I've put up problems on grainite, sandstone, limestone, quartzite, volcanics, and salt encrusted fault scarp fubar. Around Tahoe I usually stick to a stiff nylon brush and whatever I can find on the forest floor (dead wood and snow) when I'm cleaning. At Ibex I don't remember needing anything more than a toof brush. Out in the west desert of Utah I found a small paint scraper helped with the 1-5 mm scales of rotten grainite... but it made me a little sick to do it. If you use a wire brush on soft sandstone you DESTROY the holds. etc.
Different techniques for different stone... but NEVER have I seen a case where a FUKING CHISEL AND HAMMER are needed for ANY REASON other than to satisfy a selfish ego by creating artificial holds. MAYBE a pry bar to liberate a flexing flake/block over 50 lbs that you can't pull of with your bare hands.
I love in Squamish how the tops of many boulder problems have a ~6" circle of moss scrubbed out. That sh#t will grow back in no time... probably a season or two of no activity. Not the case in other environments though.
(I was sleeping under a boulder one night in Squeemish ('07) when folks were cleaning sh#t off a climb... trundling what sounded like 100+ lb blocks off something over near Freeway me thinks. Twas sketchy, but not as sketchy as the thought of those 1' slugs joining me in my sleeping bag.)
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 25, 2013 - 12:16am PT
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Ghost you moss killer! Take it easy on the logic here
My apologies. I forgot for a moment that I was posting on the internet.
Maybe what I should have said was "My name is David, and I am a scrubaholic." Then gone into a long rant about knowing what a sh#t I am, but being unable to help myself. Swearing I will go clean, but then seeing a dirt, root, and moss-filled granite splitter and losing all control. Saying, "Oh, I'll just dig out one jam, you know, just for old times sake, but that's all." But, just as always was the case, I'm soon slung about with saws, hammers, screwdrivers, wire brushes, crowbars, and old ice hammers; and headed up a rope I fixed when I thought no one was looking...
Nah. F*#k it. Why pretend? I love it.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Feb 25, 2013 - 12:40am PT
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Haha ghost, too funny.
Hey Andy what's candle in the rain??
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MH2
climber
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:03am PT
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Candle in the Rain
described in Mclane 2005 as 1 pitch 5.9 10m on Olesen Creek Bluffs Main Wall (a bit right of Wiretap)
an unfinished Ghost project which may require a chainsaw on the approach
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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Feb 25, 2013 - 02:21am PT
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Thanks Andy! Looks pretty cool actually, some quality stone. What's the deal with that thing Ghost? As the FA'ist would you give us permission to go up there with chainsaws & wire brushes & Ice hammers & rappel powered drills to do a little cleanup??
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jul 27, 2016 - 07:36am PT
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The contrast between cavers and climbers is interesting.
Cavers will go to great pains to rig a rappel to avoid disturbing a spider web.
Would climbers do the same?
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Jul 27, 2016 - 07:46am PT
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Lots of lucid well-thought out replys. But it boils down to this. If you're from CA you have no clue and no business to comment on what it may take to establish or even reach a decent rock climb on the wet side of the PNW. It's a little dirtier up here!
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jul 27, 2016 - 08:53am PT
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What if you're from California and Whidbey Island?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jul 27, 2016 - 09:05am PT
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Interesting thread bump.
Go back to the top and look all the people who participated. About half of them have been gone from Supertopo for years -- andanother, dirtineye, tradisgood, forest, blumsky, bringmedeath, ropeburn, Jennie, relic, mechrist...
It's strange. You get to know someone here, and then one day something, maybe a bump of an old thread like this one, makes you realize they have been gone for a long time, and you wonder what happened. Why did they leave? What are they doing now? Will they ever come back?
Edit:
What if you're from California and Whidbey Island?
If you're from California, you don't need weapons of moss destruction to get at the rock. If you're from Whidbey Island you don't have any rock to get at.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 27, 2016 - 09:39am PT
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If you're from CA you have no clue and no business to comment on what it may take to establish or even reach a decent rock climb on the wet side of the PNW.
I'm from California (doh!) And you're FOS.
From the ground to the stance, Lenna's Lieback on Swan Slab is front and center in the Valley. It was climbed by Kim Schmitz and Chris Fredricks in the sixties but never written up. It's now one of the most-climbed routes in the valley.
Maybe they considered it too dirty, for by the time Millis and Urs Truly had begun cleaning it, it may have filled in a bit.
But we Californians made sure the crack was clean and climbable by free methods and clean climbing ethical standards, such as they were back in '70.
Why niggle over a few pads of moss, some branches, and dropped soil? There will be more next year anyway. Unless the route happens to become popular.
When the iron was flying
And the bushes were dying
Those guys weren't crying
They were gettin' it done
And back in the day
No one went that way
It was overgrown with hay
And it wasn't very fun
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jul 27, 2016 - 09:40am PT
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If you're from California, you don't need weapons of moss destruction to get at the rock. If you're from Whidbey Island you don't have any rock to get at.
Too funny
When I lived in the PNW I preferred rock that was too unstable to grow any moss
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 27, 2016 - 09:47am PT
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Has anyone considered the effect of multi acre golf courses on the environment....how about Wawona?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jul 27, 2016 - 10:28am PT
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Munge still rules and is not remotely endangered.
Why yes, yes I do rule.
Though I do from time to time become endangered.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jul 27, 2016 - 01:20pm PT
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Jul 27, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
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Kinda makes you wonder about the carbon footprint of FAs in general, and I'm not talking about the machetes. Excessive traveling by plane/etc. adds hella size to your print...think about it. It ijust isn't localized like a golf course mentioned above and folks just don't want to talk about it.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Jul 27, 2016 - 01:46pm PT
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I've "relocated" thousands of pounds of dirt, moss, lichen, stone, and patina while either desperately digging for gear, or polishing a soon to be classic route at a roadside-ish crag.
Sometimes it's done without thought. On rare occasion, a unique or beautiful form of plant life gives me pause.
One occasion , pulling from an overhanging finger crack into an even steeper OW (ugh!) though pumped, I HAD to stop and wonder at the swath of black flower lichen that surrounded me on all sides. It had been slowly growing there for thousands of years, until me, puny human dared venture into its domain. I tried my best to leave as much of it undisturbed as possible.
That memory is still very clear in my mind. Clawing up the wideness in the setting sun, all around blue sky, grey and black granite, and surrounded by ancient and delicate life that had seen tens of thousands of beautiful sunsets from its perch on that overhanging wall. My passage was just a blink.
The next week I tore off a few truckloads of common green moss and dirt to find gear for an anchor on a different route, and was just pissed I had to move so much sh#t out of my way.
What it is.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jul 27, 2016 - 03:47pm PT
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That one's a road cut actually.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Jul 27, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
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Afraid of spiders?
I am. :)
Got bit by one and had a hole in my leg the size of a golf ball, not to mention being sick as a dog.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Munge endures. Munge never sleeps
I'm working on my endurance. I'll sleep better tonight, thx.
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