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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 18, 2006 - 10:03pm PT
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More of a rant, I suppose....
No Permanent Address is a fairly new climbing movie. I saw it recently, and was bothered by some of the ethical behavior throughout.
The “plot” goes something like this:
Some guy is trying to get in shape for a FA of a wall in BC (forgive me for not remembering his name). So he travels around the country, meeting up with different people, and climbing on all different types of stone. When he feels as if his training is complete he returns to BC and finishes of the route.
Thus, the route in BC is the climax of the movie, and basically the reason the film was made.
A bit of the movie documents some of the effort that goes into the FA of this wall. The narrator says something like “the first time we hiked to the base it took over three hours, but once we cut a trail we could hike in in 45 minutes” and the film shows them with machetes, thrashing through a forest and cutting a highway to base of the climb.
They also talk a bit about the extensive cleaning that went into the climb. They talk about the hours of hard work they spent scraping moss and lichen from the rock in order to make it climbable. And the film documents this, as they hang on ropes and attack the rock with wire brushes.
Since the climax of the movie is the completion of this wall, it seems as if the film is sort of glorifying this behavior.
In order for this wall to go free, the hero had to spend a ton of time climbing, and a ton of time gardening. And the gardening is done in a very “matter of fact” way. That’s just how things are done in the rock climbing game, apparently.
Now I understand that not everyone lives by the “Leave no trace” ethic. And I’m OK with that. I also understand that BC is very green, with lots of trees, underbrush, moss, lichen, etc... From their perspective, gardening is a necessary evil.
But here’s my problem:
Should a professionally filmed, big-name climbing movie be glorifying this? Should they be condoning this type of behavior?
Obviously behavior like this happens, and it’s going to continue happening. But it seems like it has always been very hush-hush. The perpetrators keep it quiet, as they are embarrassed by their actions. And they should be! They know they doing something wrong.
Potter left a large pile of sh#t strung all over Mt Watkins. If they made a movie about his ascent of that, do you think that part of the story would have been chalked up as “training”? Would it have even made it into the movie? He was too embarrassed to even return to retrieve his stuff!
And in the “Big Wall Ethics” thread, deuce4 regrettably tells the tale of the few times he has “sculpted” the rock. It’s not something he is proud of, and he offers these tales in what is seemingly an apology to the rock climbing community.
In the past, climbers have done some questionable things. Things they weren’t proud of. And this information has a way of finding it’s way to throughout the climbing community. The perpetrators are then chastised, and we all learn from their mistakes and try to live by a higher standard.
Yet somehow, the makers (and sponsors) of “No Permanent Address” condone the mentality that it is OK for rock climbers to scar, chisel, garden, scrape, and kill. That’s just the nature of the beast, and if we want to climb the rock we need to bring it down to our level. Right?
Is this the voice of the next generation?
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:07pm PT
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Yes. Did they? No. No. Yes. Yes, and previous ones.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:27pm PT
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Hmm. I think you can be pretty confident that a huge number of climbs had to have moss scraped off and dirt and vegetation removed from cracks, etc. In fact, I'd venture to say that there wouldn't *be* much climbing outside of limestone without a reasonable amount of cleaning.
Would some FA'ers chime in here? I've always assumed that this sort of thing has to happen in order for it to be climbable a lot of the time.
As far as carving the trail to the base, that does seem like it could be a bit questionable...
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Blumsky
Trad climber
Winston-Salem
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:27pm PT
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cleaning of a route to make it climbable is pretty much S.O.P. where i live, i don't know about the rest of the country. . . as are climbers trails . . .
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:31pm PT
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F*#king Christ... I hate mother f*#king "climbing" and "ethics"! ALL you f*#kers do is bitch bitch bitch...
Have fun, if that means top down and rap bolting then whatever! I've done it and will scrub and rap bolt all the sh#t I want to. Are you doing new routes in the northwest... oh wait I already know the answer... it's a definate NO...
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Aug 18, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
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Uh, sometimes I blow the dirt out of a crack before setting a cam. Once I used a nut tool to scrape out some mud.
If I were a witch, I would have used my broom once to knock all the pine straw off the little edges.
And on the Apron, sometimes the little finger-nail thick veneer just flaked off when I weighted it!
Let's switch to
ANOTHER ETHNIC PROBLEM
It has not been beat to death, by people who do not even understand the meaning of ethics.
Besides, it fits nicely with the first half of the topic.
And it would give matty and fatty another thread in which to misbehave.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Aug 18, 2006 - 11:29pm PT
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It might be an ethnic problem, but some climbs, especially in South America have jungle ratings. Not many people climb those routes. Cleaner is better. Cams in moss = A4+++. If the route is quality and gets climbed often it stays clean. If not, jungle re-claims it, no biggie. Heck, they keep finding entire ancient cities under that stuff. Not much different in BC I guess. There's tons of dirty granite in the Sierra, nobody wants to climb it, except in a few places where it's actually darn gneiss rock under there. Here on the coast? The rocks come with winter coats. They climb better stark naked. Gotta ask yourself, does the quality/quantity justify the dirty labor and removal of material. Moss ain't endangered ya know? Usually it isn't worth it though. Gotta have some amount of judgment. My local crag in the woods grows over again in a season. Wire brush is S.O.P., no worries there. Don't tell anyone.
...back to regular programming...
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 18, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
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The quality of new thread posting has dropped severly recently.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2006 - 12:04am PT
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dirtineye,
have you contributed anything worthwhile recently? Ever?
Would it make you happy if I took your approach and started stalking and harrassing women?
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Ropeburn
Trad climber
Riverside, CA
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Aug 19, 2006 - 01:13am PT
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I don't know about everyone else, but I feel bad for the lichen that was scraped from the rock. Is it able to fall down and re-attach to other rocks below or does it just lay there and die?
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Aug 19, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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I think if it falls upside down, then it lays there and dies. If it falls right side up and maybe lands on a good substrate that it can attach to, then it might survive.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 19, 2006 - 01:38am PT
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I'm not sure if this thread is about ethics, behaviours, or environmental impacts. They can easily become blurred. It may in fact be more about context.
There is enormous potential for climbing in the Eldred Valley, where Return to Sender was filmed - if it didn't rain quite so much! But it is often dry for extended periods in the summer, and there have even been magazine articles about it. There are a reasonable number of established routes, trails to the bases of the major cliffs, and a climbers' campground. We do a volunteer weekend there every spring, to trail build. (All approved by the Ministry of Forests.)
Vancouver is at the southern edge of the coastal temperate rainforest, which extends to and past the Alaska panhandle. The city gets about 100 cm of rain a year. Nearly twice that in Squamish. In the Eldred Valley, where Return to Sender was filmed, they probably get 300 cm or more of rain a year. The result is a very resilient, fast-growing rain forest. Activities that would be appalling somewhere like Yosemite, with a more sensitive environment, and far more visitors, have no significant impact in the Eldred. (Hundreds of thousands of visitors/year versus 50, perhaps 100.) That's not a license for stupidity - but in context of the area, the impact is trivial.
I've climbed a little in the Eldred Valley (about 50 km inland from Powell River), and have done some trailbuilding there. I'm also slightly acquainted with filmmaker Jean Gamilovskij, have been climbing at Squamish for many years, and created or helped create several routes there.
For practical purposes, virtually all cracks at Squamish, and even more so in the Eldred, that are less than vertical are full of dirt and vegetation. Up to and including trees. Similarly, most rock that is less than vertical has at least some lichen, and in wet areas may be moss covered.
It is very difficult, usually impossible, to create new routes at Squamish without cleaning. Even more so in the Eldred. Rappelling, removing dirt and vegetation from cracks, scrubbing off moss and lichen. Virtually all routes now climbed at Squamish were established in that manner, or in a few cases as aid climbs that were eventually freed.
The trail to "Return to Sender" was built through logging slash. The area was clearcut 20 or 30 years ago, and replanted. Old growth forest usually offers easy travel - little undergrowth. Once an area is logged, the situation is chaotic, and rapid growth of the understory adds to it. Full on jungle is the best analogy - we grade bushwhacks as well as climbs here. Access to Return to Sender would be impossible without a trail, and building one requires a fair effort. The impact is negligible in terms of the area's climate and biogeoclimatic situation, and the low human usage of the area.
There is a management plan for the Stawamus Chief, which is a provincial park. Developed with climbers. The plan, and associated rock climbing strategy, explicitly recognize cleaning as an accepted tactic for new routes. No one here has ever pretended otherwise, and in any case it long predates creation of the park.
There are photos of the Stawamus Chief from the 1920s, with far less vegetation then than now. The reasons may include a major forest fire in the 1850s, which burned much of the area, or perhaps warmer winters and so less snow and falling ice.
There are routes at Squamish cleaned and climbed in the 1970s and 1980s that are no recognizable. They didn't catch on, and without traffic there's nothing to hold back the jungle. Even well travelled routes occasionally require work.
I don't mean to suggest that climbers have no environmental impacts, in the Eldred, Squamish, or elsewhere. In context of the area's environments, they're both manageable and managed.
Anders
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james Colborn
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Aug 19, 2006 - 01:35pm PT
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Anders, it seems to me that most of the Apron would have been moss filled cracks before the first ascents? I was just in Squamish 2 weeks ago,{those of you that haven't been should go.} and would say that the vast majority of the climbs have been resurrected from moss and dirt. What percentage of the climbs were previous dirt holes before becoming classics like Diedre, Rock on, Crime of the century, Kalahni{sp}? crack, Calculaus crack? Keep us posted on access isssues as they arise up there. Cheers, James
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doc bs
Social climber
Northwest
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Aug 19, 2006 - 02:51pm PT
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The WA state and national forest services often make painfully long switch back trails at great expense (trails you could push a babycarriage up) avoiding the direct route...
In WA jungle, direct trails CAN lead to new creeks which eventually erode and become gullies.
Making a new direct trail for a TV show - without consideration for the environment is not a good example of stewardship.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Aug 19, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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Dear Andanother
Thanks for posting an ethics thread. Appreciate your purist (and non-elitist) approach to climbing. I haven't done much climbing in California, but isn't the rock in Yosemite, Tuolumne etc. usually pretty clean anyway?
On some Planet Earth rocks, however, it may be gardening or nothing. The California contribution in climbing is soundly established and well noted but all mountain adventure should not and cannot be interpreted through California practices and standards.
That time you caught me on Trough of Justice with five pounds of axle grease you had good cause to demand my banishment from the Valley of the Gods, but if you happen to see me slaying moss in humble Darby Canyon, please be a little more charitable. Okay,Okay! -- if the Forest Service posts signs forbiding it, I might comply. (But then, you yourself said I could read but couldn't comprehend.)
Also, since the nights are a little cooler were getting along a little better, could you show Dear Dirtineye a little more Christmas spirit, too. Since the egalitarians found out my dad worked in a nuclear power plant, and Jody saw the wine drinking picture, Dirt's the only one on ST who still talks to me!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 19, 2006 - 04:39pm PT
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Dearest andanother, yes, I have contributed substantially to climbing, in fund raising, trailwork, new routes and new climber education, most likely far more than a snide nasty jerkoff like you ever will, I do not harass women, and yes, you are a fvcking a$$hole.
BUT you fail miserably as a troll. Lame is the proper word for you in that regard.
Jennie, I'll always talk to you darlin. You are a breath of fresh air. Here's wishing more women would be as straight forward as you are, and not turn tail and run, or hide behind a false front.
May your sarcasm never fade and your edge never dull.
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andanother
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 19, 2006 - 04:46pm PT
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Jennie,
I just found it ironic that he made a comment about the "quality of new thread posting", so I had to give him a hard time. As for the stalking/harrassing comment I made, well, that's nothing new to him. He has a bit of a reputation for being a weirdo and a stalker. And, no, I'm not just being mean here. Be careful around that guy. I'm sure there are a few women on this site (and rockclimbing.com) that can fill in more details.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Aug 19, 2006 - 05:17pm PT
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OK guys. I don't want to take sides but I understand the tit for tat business, cause I've gotten into it with both of you in the past. But like I said, the nights are getting cooler and I wish all of us (incuding me) could take a little edge off our posts.
Chances are, if both of you were acquainted in the flesh, you might be the best of friends. I can't preach cause I've stirred up bruhahas myself, here. But I wish we could avoid the really nasty stuff. A little sarcasm and ribbing is reasonable but the fighting words could bring the forum down.
I've offended a number of people, here, not really intending to. So I'm try to measure my words a little more carefully. If I get close to the edge again, you're both licensed to remind me.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Aug 19, 2006 - 07:04pm PT
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We have been cleaning and in other ways, preparing, routes in Yosemite for forty years and more. Some of the really famous climbs, some of the best, most valuable climbs, have received treatment. And this treatment has even gone so far as to alter the rock itself in minor ways sometimes. Gripper, Outer Limits, Towers of Geek climbs, Peter Left, Wheat Thin, some other routes in Cookie area---hundreds of free climbs---and many of the modern big walls. Almost always it was brushing out lichen/moss, digging dirt and gravel out, getting rid of dangerous loose rock. But in some instances it has included pitoning a crack to enhance fingertip pockets, either intentionally or through time and use.
And there have of course been the hold-makers, like Jardine and even Bridwell, who thought that they were in the position to actually install finger and footholds where they thought there were none or that ones were needed “today”. It was not just out of heavy competition that this has happened, it is also out of their sense of hegemony over not only climbers of their time, but also all future climbers...as the rock is then altered for time out of mind.
I can’t imagine someone looking up at the Nose, and knowing that he had actually chiseled a route across part of its most beautiful terrain 26 years ago as if making steps in ice. I suppose one would only be able to laugh ironically. We leave a trace always, regardless, it is just a question of how much of a trace and is it reasonable.
This thread is mostly about just cleaning. Tearing out a small habitat, and replacing it with us, our occasional presence. I think the measure is not so much an ethical one as it a question of reasonable benefit. For example if the Salathe wall or another great and historic climb, was surrounded by dense jungle, it would be reasonable to make access to it through the jungle, so we could add the climb to human joy and history. If a hideous, pointless little 100-footer pile of choss was surrounded by jungle, it would not be reasonable to even take the effort to get to its base and to have hacked a big-ass path to it, a shocking demonstration of pointless power and bad taste. So obviously there has to be some thought of benefit, value and simple taste. Fortunately laziness and entropy here benefits taste, unusually .
We gain from most of our better cleaning projects. But as we all know, especially today, there are some dumb climbs cleaned out for a brief period of time, only to get someone’s name in history and to help the FA party grow in ways, and then neglected, it vegetates back over again, forgotten or at least laughed at. Unfortunately this kind of activity also alarms the agencies that are responsible for these natural resources, and in cases has fed arguments to terminate climbing.
Andanother raises the question whether the movie No Permanent Address should show site and access preparation in the manner it does. Doesn’t it encourage further “unethical” use of the land and so forth. And he implies that because historically this activity has been secretive, it has been either thus kept in check somewhat or otherwise in no way encouraging bad judgement in younger generations. He does not propose to ban the film, it is just an idle conversation into which he invites us. He worries that it may serve as a “how-to” for younger enthusiasts. And yeah, it probably does, and it certainly doesn’t serve as a lesson in “leave no trace”. And finally, it does have to worry one, about our future, a little bit. But this has to be the first film showing the seamy underside of our sport, albeit in a light that is championing something that heretofore was nearly secret, kind of like stagecraft---you never see how they build the sets for a theater production, you just enjoy the illusion, in this case, of a simple clean ascent of a wild natural part of the world.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Aug 19, 2006 - 07:17pm PT
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Peter,
(For my own particular education,) your post speaks volumes. I've been to Yosemite but really not climbed anything big. It makes sense that significant route cleaning goes on there, too.
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