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john hansen
climber
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Aug 20, 2006 - 12:40am PT
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Ultra Biker ,,
I work in construction and we are always looking for ways to do things better. That knot is amazing ,,, it will self equalize, but if something pops it will self equalize again! It becomes the 'cordelette'... great stuff
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john hansen
climber
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Aug 20, 2006 - 12:42am PT
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Three loops on an "Eight" You should have patened that thing
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 20, 2006 - 09:13am PT
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Not my Idea!!! It has been around for a long time! I learned it of all places, The Boy Scouts in 1970! Been using it ever since. Saw it used many times in the "Euro Alp Ice" scene for single rope anchor's. If I am not mistaken, Craig Lueben shares it's great value in his book "How to Ice Climb". Great "Tool" to put into your Tool Box.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2006 - 10:48am PT
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The problem with your three loops on a figure eight is if one piece blows the two other loops will shock load the anchor since they are not static loops.
A bowline tied a certain way will give you three adjustable loops plus they will be static. The added benefit of the bowline over the figure of eight is easy knot untying after heavy load on the knot.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 20, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
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Thank you Werner. I was going to point that out but figured someone would just go on a tirade.
Some other possibilities could include the bowline on a bight with the "tail" having utilitarian purpose and likewise with the Kor knot on a bight (SUPER easy to untie) or my variant of the figure 8 with a long tail fed back through the knot which can then load in line against the main body of the rope.
As the discussion has touched upon ease of untying it seems a good place to note that I came up with my variant 8 in '83 not long after acquiring my first mule. You see mules are incredibly strong and once you hitch them up with an old piece of climbing rope they pull a figure 8 knot so tight you just are not going to be able to untie it,...
unless,...
you feed the tail (without any "mushroom headed" fused end) back into the knot BUT DON'T PULL THE TAIL ALL THE WAY THROUGH. This allows a little loop that one can pull to remove the tail from the heart of the knot (that's why you don't want the mushroom). Once its out there's a whole bunch more rope in the knot and its a breeze to untie.
I would have called it the mule knot but that one was taken.
It didn't take long to find climbing applications.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 20, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
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Werner, You are correct in the "Dynamic" elongation of the "equalized 8". But, if the leaf's are taught against the attaching Biner of the Pro, the elongation is minimal and shock load is the same as that of a normal "Cordelette" tied with an overhand which is attached to the anchor Pro. And, the "The Three Loop Bowline" or "Three Leaf Bowline" as the UIAGM Italian's call it, is a Static knot. One major problem in the Three Leaf Bowline is, if the leaf that is the "locking" component of the Bowline blows, you lose the effect of the Bowline knot and the entire knot becomes useless. Therefore you have just lost your entire anchor. That is why the UIAGM doesn't endorse the "The Three Leaf Bowline" for anchor's. Rather, they just prefer the simpler "Bowline on a Bight" which results in only two loops and will not be compromised if one leaf is lost for anchors. Now, one way to remedy the loss of the third loop is to tie an over-hand in the third loop at the locking point of the knot just as you would as if tying into your harness with a Bowline.
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Aug 20, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
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Been using the "3-eared, equalizing 8" for a number of years. I too was immediately concerned about the shockload effect if one of the pieces blew. My regular climbing partner and I have experimented extensively with this theory and have not been able to get the third (loose) loop to pull through. We've actually set up 3-piece anchors, equalized everything then pulled out one of the pieces leaving only 2 connected—then we've jumped from 10-20 feet above them. Have yet to get that third loop to pull through if the whole knot is nice and tight to start with.
Since we only use it at belays, this knot would only take this kind of abuse if a leader factor 2'd onto it. Just hanging there belaying, no problem.
I no longer have concerns about this knot and use it extensively at belay anchors.
T.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 20, 2006 - 09:39pm PT
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As I said, the bowline on a bight can be tied near the end and the tail can be utilized as the third loop.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 20, 2006 - 09:49pm PT
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Thom:
Concur! Have taken numerous "Whipper's" with this knot on both the Single Rope Anchor(ICE...Factor 2) and on Solo-Aid(AID/WALLS), and have yet to have this occur either. I stand by it as do the French, Italians, Swiss, Austrian and German UIAGM Guides do. Like I said, it has been around for many years and if Gaston, Ricardo "C" and Walter "B" used it as their primary anchor knot for all the years that they climbed, then it's good enough for me...and has been since 1970.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2006 - 09:55pm PT
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Ultrabiker
Hey man it's all cool. I'll use a slip knot myself, but since I'm on SAR, I have to use overkill bomber and type accepted knots.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 20, 2006 - 10:05pm PT
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I know Werner, I am one of the long time ago "Temp Lemoore SAR" Crewchief's. We met in the "Meadow's" several times in 83 & 84 before several "Stoner Ops". Here's a picture of my regular crew down on the "ICE"...we were 911 for the entire Antarctic Continent.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 20, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
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Ultrabiker
Lemoore air ops, you guys were rad. One of the best in the business.
Bad ass crew ...............
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 20, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
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Cool thread. When I first saw some of Pete's stuff, I was like, "Dude, if climbing were that complicated, I wouldnt do it". Of course thats because I ascribed to the KIEFSS
Keep
It
Especially
F&&&in
Stupid
Simple
But I definitely see how some of this stuff is good for soloing BW's..
Thanks.
EDIT
See, even the acronym was too complicated...
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 20, 2006 - 11:34pm PT
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Hmmm....that should be for a different Thread. Got tons of pic's!
Yup, we were a group of some "Psycho Maniac's" and we loved the tough "Calls". We would fight to get on a "Valley" call! I remember old John Gill say to us on one "OP" prebrief in the Meadow's, "We knew that you guys would do it! You all are the only ones around that CAN! Thanks, again!"
Nice pic Werner! Looks like "Angels Two" with Larry Rowe bringing up the stokes. Brings back some very fond and memorable times!
Here's a famous one that unfortunately I am the Whacko caught on film on the skids, so I am told...
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crankenstein
Trad climber
Louisville, CO
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Aug 21, 2006 - 12:39am PT
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You guys rock! Threads like this are why I've lurked for years but been too intimidated to chime in. The amount of information here is so beyond my couple of decades of rock craft. Sorry to interrupt; please continue!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 21, 2006 - 09:42am PT
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Just a small technical question from the B&W photo; how does the guy who rides on the rotor keep from getting dizzy?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 22, 2006 - 04:51pm PT
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Well, I'll be buggered. [and so will she if I can catch 'er....]
That's a fine knot. I just grabbed a hunk of rope and tied it, and it is very sweet indeed - like a cordalette and rope all in one!
Note: I have been working hard to cure my addiction to bold text, however that was such a bitchin' knot I allowed myself a relapse...
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 22, 2006 - 11:56pm PT
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It's great for fast & minimal belays i.e. WI4or greater when anchor placements are minimal and must be equalized.
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piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
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Aug 23, 2006 - 10:38am PT
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Here's one of the more interesting anchors I've used while rope soloing. The tail of the bowline is cloved to a #4 Camalot to help keep the rope from riding up and over the small hoodoo. This is at the base of RIver Tower near the Fisher Towers in Utah.
I also cloved the first few protection points.
Brad
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Jeffo
Trad climber
Virginia
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Aug 23, 2006 - 11:19am PT
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OKAY....regarding the above post (the one with the pretty purple rope and the big rock)...
Is it just me or does "I also cloved the first few protection points. Brad " mean that what this guy did is create the potential for factor 2 from the ground?
It does...I think....because by clove hitching the first few pieces, you essentially removing dynamicism from the rope. So if he fell and came down past the clove hitch...it could be a factor 2. Why does it seem that MANY people do this?
I am just learning the "ropes" of solo aiding/climbing and can not understand why this done.
Anyone...Anyone...Bueller...Bueller?
J
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