Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 81 of total 81 in this topic |
squeaks
Big Wall climber
Denver
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 16, 2006 - 09:00pm PT
|
can anyone post up pictures of their solo aid anchors? I usually set a downward pull anchor, rap and clean off that and then set up a few pieces to hold the power point down. I clip into the power point and climb on.
Is there a better way to do this?
Peace
-Eric
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 12:14pm PT
|
OK, who's gonna out themself as the kind of geek that takes pictures of their ANCHORS?
Me, I guess. Here's one. hope this helps ;)
|
|
Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 04:27pm PT
|
nice clusterfk Rhodo-Ruter!
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 06:04pm PT
|
duude, that's the bivy, back off.
|
|
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 06:16pm PT
|
well .. i'm afraid i can't add anything interesting .. (but i'll post anyways) ..
every anchor (with few exceptions) that i've found on el cap has been make up of at least 2 decent bolts ..
.. a few anchors i've deemed kinda crappy .. (usually 3 crappy bolts, 1 good bolt) .. and they can usually be backed up ..
.. when doing solo anchors on bolts .. i just clip all three together with a cordallette .. attach the bag to the PP .. and keep on climbing .. the bag provides the downward pull ..
|
|
ha-ha
climber
location
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 06:21pm PT
|
i'd like to see Piton Ron chime in about solo anchors on drilled angles like you see on some zion routes. on space shot i just clipped them off with no upward-pull anchor. dicey?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 06:41pm PT
|
Many of the bolts on SS were added by other parties. This includes all but the first hanging belay which I left in 4/76 (and which is apparently still in use.)
When I use DAs for belay I often thread the rope right through the eyes with an overhand to jam against each. Eliminates the need for biners that might move and get cross loaded or levered. Lightens the rack too.
Don't fall often but on occasion I've been able to untie the knots, often because I re-enforce my belay while climbing a pitch, one of the perks of roped soloing.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 06:44pm PT
|
Oh yeah, and I usually rig some upward pull nuts below the DAs.
Sometimes I add shock cord slings to hold them upward. (If you ask if I clip the rope to the shock cords you are in for some ridicule.)
|
|
ha-ha
climber
location
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 07:44pm PT
|
thanks ron.
by "re-enforce" do you mean clove hitching into peices on the pitch?
shock cord = bungee cord?
|
|
RippedAndGripped
Social climber
Dirt, Washington
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 07:49pm PT
|
Clip the bolts? Brilliant reply. Very helpful.
Maybe some more thoughful answers for when you have to build your own anchors.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 08:46pm PT
|
Yeah, I'll use anchors good for upward pull mid-pitch, but to avoid increasing the fall factor might use a sling to delay its active involvement until the stretch is pulled from the start.
Shock cord = bungie cords, obviously rigged separate from the belay
|
|
Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 09:02pm PT
|
Squeaks, I sent you an email but not about anchors.
-Kate.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
|
OK, this drawing is somewhat correct, but there are a few changes that need to be made.
First of all, forget the Double Tagging bit - that's where you hang a half-body-weight load off of a fifi, and when you rap the pitch to clean it, you pull this load up. I don't use that with the Solo Tag Rack, because it is too terrifying to have another load hanging off a fifi! I tried Double Tagging on my solo of Native Son, but stopped doing it about halfway up, and haven't bothered since.
I do use the Solo Tag Rack when soloing. It lets me solo wearing as little rack as I like, and pull up stuff when I need it. It is tricky and dangerous, and a DFU practice - definitely not for everyone.
The beginning of the Continuous Loop is the end of the lead rope. I do it a bit differently now. I connect the end of the lead rope into the Power Point, then I run it down to the pig, and then up. It's good to use Yates Screamers on the first few pieces when soloing. The key is to have the lead rope connected into the pig, so that gives you a bit of dynamicism in your belay system. It is a REAL disadvantage to aid solo without having a pig as your "belayer".
It is partly for this reason I recommend people practise soloing by hauling a bag of rocks. Not only does it make constructing your anchors hugely easier because you don't have to struggle with upside-down gear to take an upward pull, but it lets you practise hauling a big-ass pig. If you can confidently haul a large load during you practice sessions, then what is to stop you from soloing a big wall?
You might add a Screamer between your lead rope and the pig. You have to be careful with the rigging to eliminate any possibility of a Factor 2 fall. This is why I run the rope starting at the anchor, then down to the pig, then back up again, to get that extra lead rope into the system to reduce the Fall Factor.
The Solo Tag Rack contains the Lead Rope Bag, and all your spare gear. When you need more gear, you pull up the Solo Tag Rack which hangs from a fifi. I usually put a series of "slippery overhand knots" into the lead rope above the Solo Tag Rack to hopefully prevent the rack from being bounced off in the event of a fall. Whipping past your Tag Rack is never a good idea.
You will also notice I put LONG "prusik" [really Klemheist] loops into the lead rope every thirty feet or so to take the weight of the lead rope so it doesn't slide back through your Grigri. You need to make these prusiks long so that if you fall, the rope stretch doesn't pull upward on the piece it's clipped to. This isn't really a problem, though, since the Klemheist is a one-way knot, and the lead rope slips through. This I *have* tested in falls!
The other benefit of periodically rebelaying your lead rope is when you clean the pitch - each prusik takes your weight as you are jugging, so instead of the lead rope rubbing against an edge a two hundred feet above you as you jug and clean, instead your weight is held by the prusik as you clean. This way, if you do it right, your lead rope WILL NOT RUB and you can actually solo a big wall without putting ANY nicks and abrasion into your lead rope!
Think about it - there's a nasty sharp edge halfway up the pitch. You hate to jug the rope when cleaning, because the rope is rubbing against this edge. Or is it? No it isn't! Because you put a long Klemheist rebelay just below this edge, and your weight is taken by the Klemheist, so the rope is SLACK across the sharp edge!
Note that there is a real art and science to putting these Klemheists on the rope, and getting the tensions in the thing just so.
You can click here to read more about [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=64652"]big wall solo tips including Klemheist rebelays.[/url] Scroll down til you find my posts.
Here's a photo of my system in use when I soloed The Shortest Straw:
Top right corner is my Cleaner's Rack - my lead rack has tethers on it, so when I get to the top of the pitch, I just take it off and leave it, rather than taking the bother to remove everything. I rap back down, and there's my cleaner's rack ready to go. Notice how it's up and out of the way so it doesn't tangle in anything. Similarly the Crab-O-Ledge [which I flag when hauling] is secured down low to be made windproof.
The turquoise rope is the lead rope and you can sort of see the chain of slippery overhand knots I have tied above the Solo Tag Rack, which you see in the foreground left. The Solo Tag Rack is hidden behind the green lead rope bag which is on this rack, and comes up with me when I tag.
Solo tagging is dangerous, so don't blow it.
Cheers,
Dr. Piton
|
|
JEM
Social climber
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 09:10pm PT
|
Wait a minute here.... That's a real climbing post.
JEM
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 09:15pm PT
|
Too bloody right it is. We could use a bit more of that round 'ere, lad...
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 09:18pm PT
|
Huh?
|
|
Jacob
Trad climber
yucky valley
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 10:35pm PT
|
that is the most confusing diagram i have ever seen! im just gonna stick with finding a belayer instead
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
|
Pretty cool setup Pete.
Thanks for taking the time to do that.
|
|
fareastclimber
Trad climber
Hong Kong & Wales
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 11:14pm PT
|
About the best I could come up with... it certainly ain't textbook, but at least there is something to criticize.
BTW, this is an excellent thread to have my morning coffee to!
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 17, 2006 - 11:33pm PT
|
Like, I'm still drinking beer here, eh? Well, you could start by untwisting the top of the haul line with the lead rope! And for the Real Thing, you will obviously need a haul line bag.
If you leave your lead rope in a lead rope bag that you don't either tag up later like I do, or carry with you, then make darn sure you don't tie the end of the lead rope to the bag or you will be SOL! Also be darn careful on a long pitch that you don't somehow have the whole lead rope pull through your Grigri. You could avoid this by tying a stopper knot in the end, but I wouldn't want to chance pulling up such a knot, and having it jam in a crack. Better to leave no knot in the end of the lead rope, and when you see it dangling, tie a series of backup knots in the dedicated wide-gate autolocker that dangles on your harness, since you now have to hold the weight of the remaining half of the rope on you.
Screamer above the bolts => Good!
Clove hitches => Not so good!
Dudes, clove hitches are obsolete, so quit using them. So are Figures-of-eight on a bight. The Better Way is emphatically the amazing Butterfly Knot, which is stronger than either and much easier to untie. I always thought the butterfly was stronger than the eight-on-a-bight, but it wasn't until a couple years ago I saw a Bluewater rope advert that proved it.
Yeah, the Butterfly is a bit harder to tie than the clove, but not once you practise it a bit. And it is a bit harder to adjust to length, but not all that much harder. If you think the Butterfly is tricky to tie, just remember your first attempts to tie a clove hitch!
|
|
ha-ha
climber
location
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 12:23am PT
|
butterfly knot
kinda resembles something else in that photo...
how to tie one
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
|
My method is "older" than PTPP's and entails the use of a "Solo-Aid" and a single Rap/Tag line. It served me well for over 15 years and 45 peaceful and successful Solo-Wall trips all over the world. Took some pretty nice 30-45' whipper's on it also! I never left any of my rack behind as I was afraid that it may get hung up on something especially on a "Roof" pitch. Please excuse the drawing. As far as the "Butterfly", took a 40' whipper on one and had to cut the cord. Clove is bad but can be worked loose after a long whipper as the Butterfly is impossible to uncease after major force has been exerted on it. That is why I will still use "Equalizing Fig 8".
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 05:14pm PT
|
Yeah Baby....that is great "Whipper City" Anchor! Cmon!
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 06:11pm PT
|
Very very nice drawing, Ultrabiker - who are you, anyway? What's yer real name?
Be careful with your backups on the lead rope so as not to create an upward pull on the piece in the event of a fall - this would shorten the length of rope that catches your fall, and increases the Fall Factor.
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
|
Good point. If possible, I try to place a secondary "Low" piece to my "Back-up" and clip it low which tightens the knot so as to reduce this from happening. I am surprised that you don't use a "Solo-Aid". Worked great for all my trips!
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 07:34pm PT
|
I used a Solo Aid for my first solo [Iron Hawk] but found it cumbersome to operate - you need two hands. I switched to an unmodified Grigri, and I love it. If you fall off, you can construct a 2:1 Body Hoist to regain your high point, and not worry if the piece rips since you're attached with a Grigri and not toothed cams.
What big walls have you soloed and where?
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 07:50pm PT
|
I'm an engineer, so a draughting background - pencils or beer, either works.
However, when it comes to engineers, there are two kinds - the practical, and the academic. I am emphatically the latter. My ex-wife said that when it came to doing work around the house, I didn't know which end of the hammer to hold. She was correct. However you should see what I can do with a piton hammer..... It's all about the motivation, eh?
I graduated [barely] from the School of the Mechanically Declined. I graduated last [both by grade and alphabetically] thus proving arithmetically that I did no more work than I actually had to. To graduate with an A instead of a C- is indicative of time lost to studying instead of climbing or caving.
I can't work a Solo Aid. I don't like it. I'm a spaz. My Grigri does the job for me. I sold my Solo Aid to someone on this forum, with the usual caveats. I hope he likes it more than me. I don't know who, as I suffer from the debilitating illness CRS.
Regardless of what solo belay system you use, however - ALWAYS TIE A BACKUP KNOT!!!
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 09:55pm PT
|
Never had to use two hands! It is an art form! Hell, this is "Aid" remember! I am not a speed freak and I go for the vertical pleasure cruises. Therefore, singlehanded draw on the Solo-Aid, simple. I also use a "STOP" for all my Solo Rap's. That thing is so smooth and easy and makes life so much easier on those long free raps. Done some on the "Stone", many out in various places of the Southwest Desert and many in my favorite place on this planet, Wadi Rum, Jordan. That is before all the Human's decided to start kiling each other and f*cked up my dream of retiring there. Oh well, now I do obscure stuff behind my backyard and wait for the freeze of Winter so I can climb my treasured vertical Ice.
And by all means folks, DO NOT USE THE OLD SKOOL CLOVE HITCH SYSTEM!!! One whipper and your trip is over as you will never undo that Clover that has melted onto your locker!
PS: Watch out for that Grigri, have heard of soloist's in Europe have had them malfunction on "Whipper's"! There Back-up saved there ass's!
After 1st "Solo Clean" of Deep Voodoo
Solo FAing out in the AZ "Stronghold"
Low on my seven day NAW solo trip...
(Edit Photo)
|
|
yo
climber
I'm so over it
|
|
|
Aug 18, 2006 - 11:04pm PT
|
5.10 El Caps, check--very fine wall boot indeedy.
Dude, what kind of kneepads are those?
Some kind of squid tatoo? haha
I believe, since all the usual suspects are here (MikePeriod and Needs the Two Hands Pete), that I'll probably rereretell the story of my solo ascent of the Cap with a Soloaid attached with two (2) 5mm loops, 5 + 5 equaling 10mm which is better than 9mm, as recommended. I was moderately to severely snaileyed the whole way up.
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 12:04am PT
|
That's funny, some kind of squid tatoo, if you only knew! VF-84 "JR's"! And the knee pads, well let's just say that when you have shattered both your knee caps, one needs all the protection they can get. Unfortunately the "El Caps" sucked! Went through five pairs on five walls. The toe rand had a terrible habit of delaming. But, I will give old Cole credit. Sent me a new pair each time, free of charge. That's right shipmate!
|
|
DixieGal
Trad climber
NC
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 12:53am PT
|
I use the Silent Partner. It feeds out rope nicely, and can be
great in case there are some free sections. The only problem
with it is the clusterf**k on my harness caused by attaching
the Silent Partner with two lockers directly to the harness. The instructions to the Silent Partner explicitly instruct not
to attach the device to the belay loop, but to attach it to the
waist belt and leg loops. I have found that taking off the
Silent Partner after each lead takes time/work since the whole
mess is so tight.
Does anyone else here use the Silent Partner
and how do you attach it to your harness? I also use a chest
harness, but don't connect the Silent Partner to the chest
harness.
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 10:10am PT
|
Solo Aid/Walling rules! No whining partner's, no sharing of the goodies and you got the double ledge all to yourself. Just you and the Wall. Some of my best "Wall Trips" were alone!
|
|
fareastclimber
Trad climber
Hong Kong & Wales
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 10:11am PT
|
Ultrabiker - was your NAW solo some time around May/June last year?
|
|
Kevster
Trad climber
Evergreen, CO
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 11:36am PT
|
Hey Dixie,
I use a Silent Partner as well, mostly because I like to go fast and mostly free, so the SP seems the best bet for me. To help things stay unclustered I only use 4 big locking D's, 2 on the SP and one on my belay loop which I clove my backup into, and one on my anchor. I only use 1 backup knot that I reset 3-4 times per pitch, and I always leave the free end hanging so it doesn't catch on things. Having 3-4 loops hanging off your harness like the SP manual shows is sure to lead to clusterfkage. I like the Petzl Am'D biners because they are big and keylocks, and I usually keep the 2 for the SP through my harness and leg loops all the time ( both oriented the same direction) and just remove the SP at anchors.
As for anchors I try to keep mine simple and with 1 multi directional piece, 1 upward and one downward. Re-equalizing your anchor after every pitch is sure to slow you down. Unless I am going to counterweight haul I always tie the lead rope end to the haul line and stack both ropes in one bucket. That way I am only pulling up the weight of 1 rope most of the time. The thing I love the most about rope soloing is the freedom from rope drag at the end of a rope stretching pitch.
As a disclaimer, I have yet to solo the Captain(sucessfully), mostly just up to grade V's (Yellow Wall, Journey Home, The Prow, etc.)and mostly in a day and without haulbags. So If you are looking for advice on vertical camping refer to the masters advice above.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 05:25pm PT
|
Regarding the butterfly knot link above, I'm not sure I like the way that butterfly is tied. I lay it across my hand, and then take the two strands wrapped in parallel, but crossing the first strand, so that it forms a "do not equal sign" on your hand.
You'll never find an eight-on-a-bight on my big wall systems, and rarely clove hitches. Butterflies are everywhere. The exception to this would be if you could tie that off-centred 8-on-a-bight that Werner once posted a picture of. Hell, even an overhand-on-a-bight is better than an 8.
Debating knots is for Big Wall Theorists. Better just to go out and climb something.
Here's another shot of my Solo Tag Rack in action when I soloed The Shortest Straw. The prusik rebelay beneath is foreshortened and is longer than it appears, however it should probably be lengthened. You can see the slippery overhand knots in the lead rope above the tag rack.
The photo is a link to itself, so you can click it for more information on solo systems, and links to other stuff.
You can click here for [url="http://www.rockclimbing.com/photo/photo_list.php?filter_user_id=passthepitonspete&album_id=79&period=None"]more technical and teaching photos.[/url] The second or third one explains the Solo Tag Rack.
Cheers,
Dr. Piton
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 06:37pm PT
|
So Dr. P, why the distaste for the "Equalizing Figure "8""? Been using it for over 30 years, have taken numerous whipper's on them and they were easy as pie to untie.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 06:44pm PT
|
I don't know what an "equalizing" 8 is. Is that the same as an 8-on-a-bight?
Maybe I have over-maligned the 8. I just love the butterfly!
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 07:56pm PT
|
Ah-ha!!! You may just learn something. This knot rocks!!! Been using it for years and years!!!
Make an "8" on a bight then return the Loop back through with 8-10" of tail and whalla! What is nice about it is that if the piece blows that one of the loops is attached to, the Biner locks off the loop at the knot. There of course will be some slippage but the knot remains intact and doesn't cease like a regular "8" on a bight or of course a Clove Hitch!
May I add that this knot is also great for "Single Rope" anchor attachment with two or three piece anchor's.
1)
2)
3)
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 19, 2006 - 08:18pm PT
|
A simpler Diagram of how I do it...
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 12:40am PT
|
Ultra Biker ,,
I work in construction and we are always looking for ways to do things better. That knot is amazing ,,, it will self equalize, but if something pops it will self equalize again! It becomes the 'cordelette'... great stuff
|
|
john hansen
climber
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 12:42am PT
|
Three loops on an "Eight" You should have patened that thing
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 09:13am PT
|
Not my Idea!!! It has been around for a long time! I learned it of all places, The Boy Scouts in 1970! Been using it ever since. Saw it used many times in the "Euro Alp Ice" scene for single rope anchor's. If I am not mistaken, Craig Lueben shares it's great value in his book "How to Ice Climb". Great "Tool" to put into your Tool Box.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 10:48am PT
|
The problem with your three loops on a figure eight is if one piece blows the two other loops will shock load the anchor since they are not static loops.
A bowline tied a certain way will give you three adjustable loops plus they will be static. The added benefit of the bowline over the figure of eight is easy knot untying after heavy load on the knot.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 02:19pm PT
|
Thank you Werner. I was going to point that out but figured someone would just go on a tirade.
Some other possibilities could include the bowline on a bight with the "tail" having utilitarian purpose and likewise with the Kor knot on a bight (SUPER easy to untie) or my variant of the figure 8 with a long tail fed back through the knot which can then load in line against the main body of the rope.
As the discussion has touched upon ease of untying it seems a good place to note that I came up with my variant 8 in '83 not long after acquiring my first mule. You see mules are incredibly strong and once you hitch them up with an old piece of climbing rope they pull a figure 8 knot so tight you just are not going to be able to untie it,...
unless,...
you feed the tail (without any "mushroom headed" fused end) back into the knot BUT DON'T PULL THE TAIL ALL THE WAY THROUGH. This allows a little loop that one can pull to remove the tail from the heart of the knot (that's why you don't want the mushroom). Once its out there's a whole bunch more rope in the knot and its a breeze to untie.
I would have called it the mule knot but that one was taken.
It didn't take long to find climbing applications.
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 07:12pm PT
|
Werner, You are correct in the "Dynamic" elongation of the "equalized 8". But, if the leaf's are taught against the attaching Biner of the Pro, the elongation is minimal and shock load is the same as that of a normal "Cordelette" tied with an overhand which is attached to the anchor Pro. And, the "The Three Loop Bowline" or "Three Leaf Bowline" as the UIAGM Italian's call it, is a Static knot. One major problem in the Three Leaf Bowline is, if the leaf that is the "locking" component of the Bowline blows, you lose the effect of the Bowline knot and the entire knot becomes useless. Therefore you have just lost your entire anchor. That is why the UIAGM doesn't endorse the "The Three Leaf Bowline" for anchor's. Rather, they just prefer the simpler "Bowline on a Bight" which results in only two loops and will not be compromised if one leaf is lost for anchors. Now, one way to remedy the loss of the third loop is to tie an over-hand in the third loop at the locking point of the knot just as you would as if tying into your harness with a Bowline.
|
|
Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 09:06pm PT
|
Been using the "3-eared, equalizing 8" for a number of years. I too was immediately concerned about the shockload effect if one of the pieces blew. My regular climbing partner and I have experimented extensively with this theory and have not been able to get the third (loose) loop to pull through. We've actually set up 3-piece anchors, equalized everything then pulled out one of the pieces leaving only 2 connected—then we've jumped from 10-20 feet above them. Have yet to get that third loop to pull through if the whole knot is nice and tight to start with.
Since we only use it at belays, this knot would only take this kind of abuse if a leader factor 2'd onto it. Just hanging there belaying, no problem.
I no longer have concerns about this knot and use it extensively at belay anchors.
T.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 09:39pm PT
|
As I said, the bowline on a bight can be tied near the end and the tail can be utilized as the third loop.
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 09:49pm PT
|
Thom:
Concur! Have taken numerous "Whipper's" with this knot on both the Single Rope Anchor(ICE...Factor 2) and on Solo-Aid(AID/WALLS), and have yet to have this occur either. I stand by it as do the French, Italians, Swiss, Austrian and German UIAGM Guides do. Like I said, it has been around for many years and if Gaston, Ricardo "C" and Walter "B" used it as their primary anchor knot for all the years that they climbed, then it's good enough for me...and has been since 1970.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 09:55pm PT
|
Ultrabiker
Hey man it's all cool. I'll use a slip knot myself, but since I'm on SAR, I have to use overkill bomber and type accepted knots.
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 10:05pm PT
|
I know Werner, I am one of the long time ago "Temp Lemoore SAR" Crewchief's. We met in the "Meadow's" several times in 83 & 84 before several "Stoner Ops". Here's a picture of my regular crew down on the "ICE"...we were 911 for the entire Antarctic Continent.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
|
Ultrabiker
Lemoore air ops, you guys were rad. One of the best in the business.
Bad ass crew ...............
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
|
Cool thread. When I first saw some of Pete's stuff, I was like, "Dude, if climbing were that complicated, I wouldnt do it". Of course thats because I ascribed to the KIEFSS
Keep
It
Especially
F&&&in
Stupid
Simple
But I definitely see how some of this stuff is good for soloing BW's..
Thanks.
EDIT
See, even the acronym was too complicated...
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 20, 2006 - 11:34pm PT
|
Hmmm....that should be for a different Thread. Got tons of pic's!
Yup, we were a group of some "Psycho Maniac's" and we loved the tough "Calls". We would fight to get on a "Valley" call! I remember old John Gill say to us on one "OP" prebrief in the Meadow's, "We knew that you guys would do it! You all are the only ones around that CAN! Thanks, again!"
Nice pic Werner! Looks like "Angels Two" with Larry Rowe bringing up the stokes. Brings back some very fond and memorable times!
Here's a famous one that unfortunately I am the Whacko caught on film on the skids, so I am told...
|
|
crankenstein
Trad climber
Louisville, CO
|
|
|
Aug 21, 2006 - 12:39am PT
|
You guys rock! Threads like this are why I've lurked for years but been too intimidated to chime in. The amount of information here is so beyond my couple of decades of rock craft. Sorry to interrupt; please continue!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 21, 2006 - 09:42am PT
|
Just a small technical question from the B&W photo; how does the guy who rides on the rotor keep from getting dizzy?
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2006 - 04:51pm PT
|
Well, I'll be buggered. [and so will she if I can catch 'er....]
That's a fine knot. I just grabbed a hunk of rope and tied it, and it is very sweet indeed - like a cordalette and rope all in one!
Note: I have been working hard to cure my addiction to bold text, however that was such a bitchin' knot I allowed myself a relapse...
|
|
Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
|
|
|
Aug 22, 2006 - 11:56pm PT
|
It's great for fast & minimal belays i.e. WI4or greater when anchor placements are minimal and must be equalized.
|
|
piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2006 - 10:38am PT
|
Here's one of the more interesting anchors I've used while rope soloing. The tail of the bowline is cloved to a #4 Camalot to help keep the rope from riding up and over the small hoodoo. This is at the base of RIver Tower near the Fisher Towers in Utah.
I also cloved the first few protection points.
Brad
|
|
Jeffo
Trad climber
Virginia
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2006 - 11:19am PT
|
OKAY....regarding the above post (the one with the pretty purple rope and the big rock)...
Is it just me or does "I also cloved the first few protection points. Brad " mean that what this guy did is create the potential for factor 2 from the ground?
It does...I think....because by clove hitching the first few pieces, you essentially removing dynamicism from the rope. So if he fell and came down past the clove hitch...it could be a factor 2. Why does it seem that MANY people do this?
I am just learning the "ropes" of solo aiding/climbing and can not understand why this done.
Anyone...Anyone...Bueller...Bueller?
J
|
|
Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2006 - 11:26am PT
|
It is possible to butterfly to the subsequent piece(s) in such a way that the load is equally shared by both the ground anchor and the subsequent piece. Takes some fiddling, certainly, but it it possible.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2006 - 01:31pm PT
|
Rhodo, why bother? It still raises the fall factor.
With slings one can "lower" the intermediate knots so that they are not immediately loaded but rather used as a backup.
Less fiddling and far better function.
|
|
imnotclever
climber
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
|
I'd bet he's a little more concerned with gound fall than FF2 in this case.
|
|
Jeffo
Trad climber
Virginia
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2006 - 02:52pm PT
|
Imnotclever....ground fall vs. factor 2 fall....hmmm....what to choose. How about NEITHER. If the first piece is only 8-10' off the deck, there's not enough rope stretch at that point to justify clove hitchin the first piece. And even if there was...build your anchor closer to the base of the climb rather than twenty feet away on a rock.
|
|
piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
|
|
|
Aug 23, 2006 - 04:27pm PT
|
Rhoto,
That's exactly what I did. Except that I used cloves instead of butterflies and I think I only cloved one or two pieces instead of a few. I pulled the stretch out of the rope and then tied the clove to the first piece so that there was already tension between the blob of rock and the first bolt and they would hopefully share the load to some degree.
I did this because
A) I didn't trust the rock blob or the first bolt enough to trust either one alone as my anchor.
B) The first pitch is a bolt ladder (albeit manky) and my next piece (and every other piece on the pitch) was not more than an arms reach away from the second or third steps. While this may not lesson the fall factor for the first few placements, it meant that they would be relatively short falls.
C) There are very few options for a rope solo anchor at the base of this route.
Imnotcleaver hit the nail on the head for what I was most worried about.
Brad
Here are the rest of the pictures if you're interested...
|
|
Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
|
|
Bump.
Good thread.
PTPP, That continous loop thing seems complex, what are the advantages to it? Please note I have only soloed 50' c1 kind of stuff.
Prod.
|
|
Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
up Yonder (the edge of Treason)
|
|
That's a perfectly GOOD 'blob' of rock there, boyo.....many desert anchors involve such, get used to it.......you did increase your fall factor with your 'pucker factor' antics....Good luck, & buy a Stratos........You may yet live.
|
|
Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
|
|
Thanks for the bump, awesome thread.
Those Kilmster knots can be dialed in by using them for a while so that he webbing gets kind of a funk built up.
You know, a combination of sweat, dirt, pine sap, bonus jack residue from under the seat, vomit, urine, insect repellent, rat turds, bat guaca, you get me?
Then you can really "set" that knot a lot better than if it were virgin webbing.
And the set will not loosen from the rope jangling around.
There is a natural tendency for the knot to loosen over time if it's fresh nylon.
|
|
MisterE
Trad climber
My Inner Nut
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2008 - 11:01pm PT
|
Bump for a great knot from Ultrabiker, in case you missed it
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 23, 2008 - 03:03am PT
|
The only way I'd even consider using that knot would be to first run the 'tail' loop through the other two before clipping it.
|
|
crossman04
Trad climber
san diego, ca
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2009 - 10:47am PT
|
This is a phenominal thread. Rare one on ST where i actually learned something and it wasn't just people rambling.
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2009 - 11:14am PT
|
Thanks for resurrecting this thread. Great info all around! and I learned something new, a equalizing figure 8. Now I got to go out and try it, sweet.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2009 - 11:16am PT
|
No love for the clove hitch.....I simply don't get it. My system is too simple to describe here. LOL
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
|
It's HiFi that hangs from bomber piece.
Not FiFi.
What the hell's a FiFi anyway?
A gay poodle from China?
|
|
SeanC
Trad climber
Redlands, CA
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
|
Bump for a great thread!
PTPP said...
You will also notice I put LONG "prusik" [really Klemheist] loops into the lead rope every thirty feet or so to take the weight of the lead rope so it doesn't slide back through your Grigri. You need to make these prusiks long so that if you fall, the rope stretch doesn't pull upward on the piece it's clipped to. This isn't really a problem, though, since the Klemheist is a one-way knot, and the lead rope slips through. This I *have* tested in falls!
The klemheist loops seem like a much safer alternative to cloving into bomber pieces, but if you are 100+ feet up a pitch wouldn't you need a VERY long loop (even longer than a double length sling) to ensure the rope stretch won't pull upward on the piece?
|
|
KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
|
Oh yeah, and I usually rig nuts below the DAs.
This is my usual Defense gambit.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
|
That was 6 years ago.
They're naturally lower now.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
|
I'm gonna learn to tie that figure 8 and see if it's for me.... great thread.
|
|
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
|
A Lead Solo Anchor.
A Cleaning and Hauling Solo Anchor.
|
|
johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2012 - 12:01am PT
|
Real clean anchor Mark, nice.
|
|
Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2012 - 12:16am PT
|
Thanks, it's not too hard when you're soloing trade routes on the worlds most perfect granite cliff.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 81 of total 81 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!