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kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
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It is a general principle thing for me. You are probably correct in this case. Granted, most things I have showed up for have been minor and there's a good chance this has something to do with my philosophy; that being said, I would show up expecting to pay full fines/deal with full consequences, but still would contest on general principle. In my experience, showing up and acting respectful and appropriate and not making excuses has many times garnered me a reduced fine/etc simply for showing up. I also probably have enough time on my hands for this path to be feasible.
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WBraun
climber
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If he presents his case correctly with all the variables correctly he should be able to have the fine eliminated ......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I totally agree, I just hate seeing people go all starry-eyed into combat. ;-)
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Ezra, how did the FS officer die? Do you know much about the climb? How high off the ground are they? Could have he just rapped to the ground in one rappel? Helping streessed out people is very stressful in and of itself as the EMS people should know. Even if he was pushy or disrespectful you would think they would think better than to issue him a citation if he was trying to help.
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speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
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I have the feeling it went down like this:
The call came into dispatch who asked questions and kept the reporting party/first responder/"civilian rockclimber" on the line to assess the situation and determine what resources were necessary.
EMS/rescue gets dispatched to the location and a ranking member makes the determination that they need/are going to use a helicopter.
Because it's in the USFS jurisdiction somehow, a USFS LEO was sent or went to the scene on their own.
The EMS/LEO has a a lot of protocols and procedures in place. Traffic control, establishing landing zones for the helicopter, diverting looky-loo's, dedicating personnel, equipment, staging additional resources, these are all important elements.
By this time, Command Staff has been alerted and youve got Captains, Lt's, Chiefs on scene. So they're watching this whole thing unfold, and they have one objective:
Complete the rescue without any further injury or incident.
So they look down, and all the "tools" are there... People, gear, machines.. and then, hey, whats that? In the Orange Hat?
A variable. A liability. Why in the Eff is that guy still there? Get him out of there!
Im pretty confident the guys on the cliff respected and appreciated the climbers efforts. And they probably understood why he didn't leave. But when you're a cop or a firefighter or a rescuer, you work in a closed community. One in which liability plays a huge role.
They pluck the dude off the cliff, and then staff/management/supervisors want answers... What the f' were you thinking, leaving that civilian in the scene? What precedent are we setting? What does this look like on the news back in Denver? What if a rock got dislodged? What if he fell? What the f was going on down there? Can you control the scene or cant you? So exasperated Sergeants and crew Chiefs throw their hands up and walk their subordinates to the only answer that's gonna clear them... We told the guy to leave.
So the Fire guy calls the Parks guy who calls the USFS Lady and everybody wants to know: "what do you intend to do about this?", and some LEO who's probably been busy dealing with all sorts of really lame sh#t already gets radio'ed to contact his/her supervisor, who tells her/him, "Cut that guy a cite..."
Because it's the way it works. Because everybody has to show they were doing due diligence to protect the public and all EMS assets.
The fact that the charge is Dis-Con, which is the LEO catch-all, tells you how much head scratching was being done, and how faithless the issuer may have felt about it. And he/she probably said "A citation for?" and they hash it out, and then the LEO has to "sell" the citation, with plenty of professionally apologetic but firm tone...
That's my guess.
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WBraun
climber
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LOL speelyei
You've been there too.
Yep that's how it's played out sometimes .....
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
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Mike,
The BLM officer was killed responding to a stolen vehicle driven by a man who had recently killed his own parents.
The BLM officer had young kids, really sad, IMO.
Still this does seem to set a REALLY bad precedent, the assisting climber who is very experienced helped the BLM and was in a difficult situation and not able to evacuate from what I've herd.
The route is Maginot Line 5.7+, at Shortoff mountain (listed on mountain project) which has some no fall zones on it. It is probably about 400 feet high. I climbed Maginot line last in 2002, so it's kinda foggy. I did it in three pitches, but ran it out a bit on the second pitch. The injured climber had a hold break, and will be fine, but had a fractured pelvis.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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For perspective? I don't think the fine will deter a good samaritan.
How much is the fine? Will it go on his permanent record? Might make for an interesting story at a job interview. Save the information about the incident for the future, in case there comes a teachable moment.
If you can't pay for the crime, don't do the climb! Think of it as a tax to pay for all that helo-juice. Glad ... all the "tools"... were in the right place at the rescue.
Also, the Forest Service seems understaffed, and undertrained to handle much of the chaos that sometimes spins out of more urban areas. Seriously, glad to hear everyone was o.k. Also, truly tragic what happened to the officer, and the family of the perpetrator of the violence.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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If you watch the video closely, it looks like the guy used his rope to build an anchor to attach the injured climber to the cliff. If this is true then he couldn't have gone anywhere until the injured climber was rescued because he was the only thing keeping the guy safe on the ledge.
"They used his ropes, but not for rapelling so he could have left at any time"??
What the heck kinda nonsense is that.
So basically, don't save someone because you might end up in the way of the pros is the message here.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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^^^--- pretty much
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"But, it's complicated by the fact that the ranger who cited him was killed on duty less tHan a week later. "
Maybe not so complicated for the guy who got the ticket. The cop can't show up in court now ( or at least he can't testify ).
Sixth Amendment. Case dismissed.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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As if everyone carries around a set of ascenders when out for a day of cragging.
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overwatch
climber
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Bloated archaic command and control structure
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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BJ,
Doesn't seem like the place for thread drift, but here goes. Thanks for the data. I'm surprised at the money spent. Still, more off the cuff, I wish the FS charged market rates for grazing, mineral rights, recreational concessions, etc. for "our" resources. Moreover, it must be tough approaching every "tourist" encounter, or vehicle stop, in the manner of a federal police officer, when all you wanted to be was a forest ranger, and hang with Woodsy and Smokey.
Again, sorry for the simplifications. Just thinking that the proportion of rangers per square mile is pretty small compared to the jurisdictions of other officials. They have to deal with some of the same folks, and unless I'm mistaken, clean bathrooms, haul trash, and give directions, etc.
If we ever run across each other, my uncle had a good story about "cops". He found that not all are bad. Anyway, he was a trouble maker, and it was kind of a funny story.
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Enty
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
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Thanks for the discussion so far - fascinating!!
E
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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He could have fun with it if they used any of his gear without a warrant.
He needs to charge rent for the use of his gear.
The us constitution prohibits unreasonable seizure, which securing a climber's rope 200 ft up would seem to be. No time limit is enumerated.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."[1]
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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My sister in law's father carried a gun and cleaned bathrooms. Maybe it was the state we're in, my apologies.
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John M
climber
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Now they are prima donnas doing one thing (besides crying about their budget, workloads and management).
I really hate these generalizations. Some are.. but I find most are good decent people. They do sometimes get locked in an institutionalized mindset, which has to be fought. But that is true of any large group or business. Try dealing with AT&T sometime when your situation does not fit their paradigm.
Or worse yet, try dealing with a health insurance company when your situation does not fit their paradigm.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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That is why there is a court system fortunately. Take it to the judge. Should be pretty easy to get dismissed.
Unfortunately, justice doesn't come cheaply. I agree with John M, and would go farther that almost all FS employees, including LEO's, that I know are good people. If John will tolerate a bit more thread drift, that's why I distrust bureaucracies and hide-bound rules, whether in government (e.g. the FS) or private (e.g. health "insurance.")
JOhn
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