Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 56 of total 56 in this topic |
Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
|
|
There's no escape from the authoritarian police state.
Its sad, but not surprising at all!
|
|
Bad Climber
climber
|
|
Wow, yet another Forest Service F*cktard. The fined climber somehow cost the rescue team 20 min. in getting to the injured fellow? Yeah, and just how is that? Rescue crew says they were using his rope, but not for rappelling, so the fined climber could have gotten out of the way? Jeezus, what's not to hate about the Forest Service when they pull crap like this?
BAd
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
Locally a cop cited a fireman for the same reason.
The EMS issuer of the citation needs to issue an apology and thanks to the climber for his help. A little retraining as well would be appropriate.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
That is why there is a court system fortunately. Take it to the judge. Should be pretty easy to get dismissed.
Stupid and annoying situation though.
|
|
speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
|
|
Lame
|
|
mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
|
|
If they laid a hand on his rope in anyway, he needs to send a bill for a new rope to that counties SAR...
Our SAR wold gladly reimburse him for his expense, and appreciate all the effort he did to help cut DOWN the rescue time.
|
|
Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
|
|
I'm sure there are many stories. I think he needs a forehead sticker. Volunteers?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Finally, get your Thoreau or Emmerson on: Really, I can't criticize the forest service. I'm sure there are some good folks there. It's our forest anyway, right?
edit: Get rad!!! Don't pay the fine, start your indefinitely extended stay in the forest, stake out some dumpsters, compete with the vermin, etc. etc.
|
|
Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
|
|
"Ten to one there's more to this story than meets the media!"
I'm game! What ya want to bet?
|
|
speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
|
|
Chances are the LEO who had to write the citation thought it was lame, too. Just one of the many undesirable aspects to law enforcement.
|
|
WanderlustMD
Trad climber
New England
|
|
Obviously, it is idiotic on the part of the Forest Service to cite the guy. But I wonder why he didn't leave when they asked him to over the phone before EMS arrived (if that part is indeed true).
In any case, the citation should be dropped. Come on, people...
Werner?
|
|
Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
|
|
I had a friend who was there, the media actually got this one right.
But, it's complicated by the fact that the ranger who cited him was killed on duty less tHan a week later.
Sad and f-ed up all around!!
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
"civilian rock climber" ....pfft.
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
There really is a lot of cluelessness in that video, can't believe I just forced my way through it.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
This my personal opinion and is no way affiliated with any professional agency.
This a total bullsh!t call.
He had moved out of the way during the actual rescue.
He said he wasn't leaving and that's that.
Why he should leave boggles me????
What if the the chopper had to abort the operation?
He wasn't in the way.
Their argument can be if the the helo operation fails somehow and crashes he could be killed and they are liable or a rock comes loose and hits him etc etc.
The civilian rescuer could leave before the hoist rescue operation and while jumaring out knock a rock onto the victim causing further problems.
Or the civilian somehow has a problem during his attempt at leaving the scene and thus cause more problems and delays.
There so many different scenarios that "could happen" it was better for him to stay there according to this situation.
The civilian climber made the call and stuck to it.
Fine, so fine me and we'll settle this court ......
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
Is there a maximum IQ for becoming a Tool, like, mmmm, say 75?
Or the same as a newscaster?
|
|
Sanskara
climber
|
|
Jebus
I think I have a ST crush on you. You make me laugh...
|
|
JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
|
Bunch of rescue cop control freaks, such a shock, BFD.
The smirk on that child's face and his stupid words - the guy that lowered from the helicopter - glad he didn't kill anyone, seemed like the type that could really f*#k something up and not realize it.
The "civilian" executed everything perfectly, IMO, they were just jealous and territorial.
|
|
kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
|
|
I make a point of contesting my tickets in court. If this was me, I would without hesitation pursue these means. Total Bullshit from what I can tell.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
kahola, I wouldn't show up in court expecting justice to be served.
In my experience the courts generally give the Tool the benefit of the doubt, and then some.
|
|
kaholatingtong
Trad climber
Nevada City
|
|
It is a general principle thing for me. You are probably correct in this case. Granted, most things I have showed up for have been minor and there's a good chance this has something to do with my philosophy; that being said, I would show up expecting to pay full fines/deal with full consequences, but still would contest on general principle. In my experience, showing up and acting respectful and appropriate and not making excuses has many times garnered me a reduced fine/etc simply for showing up. I also probably have enough time on my hands for this path to be feasible.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
If he presents his case correctly with all the variables correctly he should be able to have the fine eliminated ......
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
I totally agree, I just hate seeing people go all starry-eyed into combat. ;-)
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
Ezra, how did the FS officer die? Do you know much about the climb? How high off the ground are they? Could have he just rapped to the ground in one rappel? Helping streessed out people is very stressful in and of itself as the EMS people should know. Even if he was pushy or disrespectful you would think they would think better than to issue him a citation if he was trying to help.
|
|
speelyei
Trad climber
Mohave County Arizona
|
|
I have the feeling it went down like this:
The call came into dispatch who asked questions and kept the reporting party/first responder/"civilian rockclimber" on the line to assess the situation and determine what resources were necessary.
EMS/rescue gets dispatched to the location and a ranking member makes the determination that they need/are going to use a helicopter.
Because it's in the USFS jurisdiction somehow, a USFS LEO was sent or went to the scene on their own.
The EMS/LEO has a a lot of protocols and procedures in place. Traffic control, establishing landing zones for the helicopter, diverting looky-loo's, dedicating personnel, equipment, staging additional resources, these are all important elements.
By this time, Command Staff has been alerted and youve got Captains, Lt's, Chiefs on scene. So they're watching this whole thing unfold, and they have one objective:
Complete the rescue without any further injury or incident.
So they look down, and all the "tools" are there... People, gear, machines.. and then, hey, whats that? In the Orange Hat?
A variable. A liability. Why in the Eff is that guy still there? Get him out of there!
Im pretty confident the guys on the cliff respected and appreciated the climbers efforts. And they probably understood why he didn't leave. But when you're a cop or a firefighter or a rescuer, you work in a closed community. One in which liability plays a huge role.
They pluck the dude off the cliff, and then staff/management/supervisors want answers... What the f' were you thinking, leaving that civilian in the scene? What precedent are we setting? What does this look like on the news back in Denver? What if a rock got dislodged? What if he fell? What the f was going on down there? Can you control the scene or cant you? So exasperated Sergeants and crew Chiefs throw their hands up and walk their subordinates to the only answer that's gonna clear them... We told the guy to leave.
So the Fire guy calls the Parks guy who calls the USFS Lady and everybody wants to know: "what do you intend to do about this?", and some LEO who's probably been busy dealing with all sorts of really lame sh#t already gets radio'ed to contact his/her supervisor, who tells her/him, "Cut that guy a cite..."
Because it's the way it works. Because everybody has to show they were doing due diligence to protect the public and all EMS assets.
The fact that the charge is Dis-Con, which is the LEO catch-all, tells you how much head scratching was being done, and how faithless the issuer may have felt about it. And he/she probably said "A citation for?" and they hash it out, and then the LEO has to "sell" the citation, with plenty of professionally apologetic but firm tone...
That's my guess.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
LOL speelyei
You've been there too.
Yep that's how it's played out sometimes .....
|
|
Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
|
|
Mike,
The BLM officer was killed responding to a stolen vehicle driven by a man who had recently killed his own parents.
The BLM officer had young kids, really sad, IMO.
Still this does seem to set a REALLY bad precedent, the assisting climber who is very experienced helped the BLM and was in a difficult situation and not able to evacuate from what I've herd.
The route is Maginot Line 5.7+, at Shortoff mountain (listed on mountain project) which has some no fall zones on it. It is probably about 400 feet high. I climbed Maginot line last in 2002, so it's kinda foggy. I did it in three pitches, but ran it out a bit on the second pitch. The injured climber had a hold break, and will be fine, but had a fractured pelvis.
|
|
Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
|
|
For perspective? I don't think the fine will deter a good samaritan.
How much is the fine? Will it go on his permanent record? Might make for an interesting story at a job interview. Save the information about the incident for the future, in case there comes a teachable moment.
If you can't pay for the crime, don't do the climb! Think of it as a tax to pay for all that helo-juice. Glad ... all the "tools"... were in the right place at the rescue.
Also, the Forest Service seems understaffed, and undertrained to handle much of the chaos that sometimes spins out of more urban areas. Seriously, glad to hear everyone was o.k. Also, truly tragic what happened to the officer, and the family of the perpetrator of the violence.
|
|
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
|
|
If you watch the video closely, it looks like the guy used his rope to build an anchor to attach the injured climber to the cliff. If this is true then he couldn't have gone anywhere until the injured climber was rescued because he was the only thing keeping the guy safe on the ledge.
"They used his ropes, but not for rapelling so he could have left at any time"??
What the heck kinda nonsense is that.
So basically, don't save someone because you might end up in the way of the pros is the message here.
|
|
nature
climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
^^^--- pretty much
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
"But, it's complicated by the fact that the ranger who cited him was killed on duty less tHan a week later. "
Maybe not so complicated for the guy who got the ticket. The cop can't show up in court now ( or at least he can't testify ).
Sixth Amendment. Case dismissed.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
As if everyone carries around a set of ascenders when out for a day of cragging.
|
|
overwatch
climber
|
|
Bloated archaic command and control structure
|
|
Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
|
|
BJ,
Doesn't seem like the place for thread drift, but here goes. Thanks for the data. I'm surprised at the money spent. Still, more off the cuff, I wish the FS charged market rates for grazing, mineral rights, recreational concessions, etc. for "our" resources. Moreover, it must be tough approaching every "tourist" encounter, or vehicle stop, in the manner of a federal police officer, when all you wanted to be was a forest ranger, and hang with Woodsy and Smokey.
Again, sorry for the simplifications. Just thinking that the proportion of rangers per square mile is pretty small compared to the jurisdictions of other officials. They have to deal with some of the same folks, and unless I'm mistaken, clean bathrooms, haul trash, and give directions, etc.
If we ever run across each other, my uncle had a good story about "cops". He found that not all are bad. Anyway, he was a trouble maker, and it was kind of a funny story.
|
|
Enty
Trad climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
|
Thanks for the discussion so far - fascinating!!
E
|
|
Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
|
|
He could have fun with it if they used any of his gear without a warrant.
He needs to charge rent for the use of his gear.
The us constitution prohibits unreasonable seizure, which securing a climber's rope 200 ft up would seem to be. No time limit is enumerated.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."[1]
|
|
Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
|
|
My sister in law's father carried a gun and cleaned bathrooms. Maybe it was the state we're in, my apologies.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
Now they are prima donnas doing one thing (besides crying about their budget, workloads and management).
I really hate these generalizations. Some are.. but I find most are good decent people. They do sometimes get locked in an institutionalized mindset, which has to be fought. But that is true of any large group or business. Try dealing with AT&T sometime when your situation does not fit their paradigm.
Or worse yet, try dealing with a health insurance company when your situation does not fit their paradigm.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
That is why there is a court system fortunately. Take it to the judge. Should be pretty easy to get dismissed.
Unfortunately, justice doesn't come cheaply. I agree with John M, and would go farther that almost all FS employees, including LEO's, that I know are good people. If John will tolerate a bit more thread drift, that's why I distrust bureaucracies and hide-bound rules, whether in government (e.g. the FS) or private (e.g. health "insurance.")
JOhn
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
I agree JohnE that it is wise to distrust bureaucracies, but you seem to inordinately trust market forces.
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
J El
Well unless we are talking about one hell of a heavy fine. I wouldn't waste money on a lawyer to fight it. Just come prepared to explain carefully why you couldn't get further away.
This is like a traffic ticket right?
The officer is tragically deceased in a non related incident, correct? On so many levels this should be an easy dismissal. Worst thing is travel and time off work to fight it. Never any guarantee of winning but this one I would show up for in court instead of mailing in the payment.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
Hard to know the specifics of the legal situation. The court location may be a haul to get to.
The person may have to take a day off work, which loses considerably more income than the fine.
LEO's know this, and use it as a punitive action against people.
I don't know if the option exists, but a "trial by declaration" would be a good option. Probably not an option at the federal level.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
"They used his ropes, but not for rapelling so he could have left at any time"??
What the heck kinda nonsense is that.
That was my thought... I guessed he would have used his own gear to build a temporary anchor to better secure the fallen climber. At that point he is stuck to the location until the rescuers move the victim onto their own anchor systems or haul him off.
"They used his ropes, but not for rappelling so he could have left at any time" seems like spin-doctoring by people who don't understand climbing. If they used his rope for anything, or it was part of the temporary anchor system securing the fallen climber, the first responder can't use it to rap. Seems like he did the best he could be climbing out of the way, probably while still tied in to a strand of the rope.
And would a rescue agency really tell someone to leave a victim prior to arrival of other responders??? This just seems completely contrary to common sense... Were the pro responders worried about the untrained first responder hurting himself with rockfall? Further injuring the fallen climber through well-intentioned but incapable medical treatment? What if the victim also had a head injury and tried to untie himself? It seems wildly irresponsible to tell a first responder to leave a situation before other support arrives. What if the first responder had been the fallen climber's partner? Should he just abandon his partner before help arrives??? In this case, it doesn't seem like the first responder could have left without placing the victim in greater danger with the removal of the temporary anchor.
Enough disturbing questions and lack of clarity that this needs more light and attention.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
well, now we know where Ron is,
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
hey there say, Enty... thank you for the story and the link...
and to all the folks that shared as to this rescue and the 'after effects',
thanks for sharing, might help others, in the same situation--or at least prepare any for these kind of things...
these things make you feel a bit down,as to teamwork, in trying to rescue folks... but--i have not read it, yet...
and of course, the media may not always share everything...
if there was injustice, sure hope it gets fixed... :(
edit: ooops, the more i read, from climber-views, it does seem
strange... :(
|
|
Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
North wet, and Da souf
|
|
The fine was $120
It's more the precedent than the money!!!
One of the local climber lawyers is salivating to take the case for free ;)
|
|
hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
|
|
It's reassuring to see that rockclimbers are willing to help others who need it. Unlike some Everest climbers who just walk on by....... A "fine" example [ha ha] was set by the "civilian hiker".
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
Dr. Sprock, I usually like your contributions but that one was dumb and thread drift IMO, stick to the topic. I know you were just having a funny poke, but that can be how some of these threads can turn into...
On the face of it, and reading a bit further on the net, the "civilian" climber did what he deemed best. NOT to disparage ANY SARs, but it sounds like the ones involved, both in communications and at the scene, need a bit more training, or at least understanding.
RIP the poor ranger who was killed in a separate incident. As far as the incident we are talking about, the (poor soul) ranger may have been following protocol by citing the climber, or maybe not. I really do not know.
|
|
Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
|
|
ok, alright, can i send you some candy, or how about a bottle of Jameson?
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
LOL
I don't eat candy (unless it has nuts in it) Dr, but my preferred Irish whiskey is Powers Gold Label, smoother than Jameson or Paddy's (Paddy's is rough but has a following). ;-)
I'll drink Powers, neat, or with a stout chaser. Or in a coffee or a whiskey sour.
Though any Irish single malt is nice, if aged. And of course I like Black Bush (from Bushmills) occasionally, and yes, we all know the Black Bush joke. Heh heh.
Back to the topic though, the mention of a Trial by Declaration, does that work with Federal cases/citations? It would seem the way to go, but then I am no legal eagle. Any lawyers out there? Just curious.
|
|
Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
|
|
Actually I thought the Dr's comment was pretty funny:-)
|
|
Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
|
Yeah, Delhi Dog, it was, however, I was not trying to chastise the Dr, at least I hope it did not come across that way.
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
Stay on topic talk about whiskey. Where were the fallen climbers partners in all of this.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
Mr Ellis writes:
"One of the local climber lawyers is salivating to take the case for free"
If that's true, it may save him a trip to court. For misdemeanor cases, your lawyer is permitted to appear before the judge in your place.
|
|
Jeremy B.
climber
Northern California
|
|
And would a rescue agency really tell someone to leave a victim prior to arrival of other responders??? .... What if the victim also had a head injury and tried to untie himself? It seems wildly irresponsible to tell a first responder to leave a situation before other support arrives.
Exactly; unless absolutely necessary I wouldn't want to rappel off a temporary anchor securing the victim, nor would I want to climb above it (risk of rockfall). I /would/ want to be holding c-spine until someone got there to take over.
One of the local climber lawyers is salivating to take the case for free
I certainly hope so! I know if I was the victim and heard about that, I'd be pissed. You don't leave a [potential] head injury patient unattended if you can help it, certainly not on the side of a cliff.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 56 of total 56 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!