LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 8, 2006 - 07:44pm PT
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Before you read this, I wish to emphasize that I am NOT TROLLING (the ever present word on this forum!). These are sincere questions and issues which I have been thinking about since reading the WoS thread. And, BTW I did NOT “crash” the WoS thread and stick my nose in a place where I did not belong (i.e. the “busy body” phenomenon.”) Rather, I was *asked* (get that, asked) by a highly respected member of the climbing community (who I just so happen to think is a fantastic person) to go in there and offer perspective.
As a result of reading through the threads there, the following questions came to my “uninformed” mind. I was going to email them to a friend or two for the answers but I thought perhaps, instead, they might make for interesting discussion. If even one of you uses the “T” word, I will send the fleas of a thousand camels to torment you for all eternity. Here are the questions which came to my mind from my brief tenure on that thread.
1. Who makes the “rules” about climbing esp about climbing in a National Park. One might think it was the National Park Service (NPS) but such would seem such is not the case. As a hiker the rules are clearly set forth by the NPS and enforced by same. There is little question of what is or is not “allowed” or else who may use the hiking trails.
2. Where (and how) do potential climbers learn these “rules”? How are they enforced? Is there some legitimate means by which persons become acquainted with said rules. Or rather, do people “learn” by getting beat up or having their equipment damaged or even life-threatening maneuvers such has cutting ropes, bolts, etc. Is there a “territorial” component inherent in any of this? Is there pissing and squatting going on?
3. Who is “entitled” to use NPS facilities including El Cap. Is it anyone who pays taxes? Is it persons who have been there the longest? Is it persons who use the park the most frequently or live the shortest distance away? Is the “right” to use the park facilities in someway related to “might” i.e. the “might makes right” dynamics? Is freedom to climb in the park dependant on membership (or at least acceptance into) in a clique of some sort?
4. Are any intimidation tactics used to keep newcomers out? What would happen to two men who say lived in Maine and who set out on a vacation together to climb for the first time in El Cap. Would they encounter resistence from persons already there and thus have to be “tough” enough to fight for the right to use these facilities. Do some people have “more rights” then others in this regard? Is this a “Law of the Jungle” dynamics issue or can any taxpayer and/or his family use the climbing routes in Yosemite? What about other climbing areas in other places? .
Again, remember if you even utter the “T word” - fleas are coming your way very soon!
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locker
Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
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Research???
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2006 - 07:46pm PT
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No reseach but truly I wish there was. I don't know how to do that. Typically those skills are taught at the PhD level and I have a masters degree.
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locker
Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
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the degree does not dictate the level of intellegence as you well know...
So to claim you need a PHD to do research is total nonsense...
Does EVERY writer that researches material for a book or article have a PHD???
(No need to answer that of course)...
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2006 - 08:02pm PT
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Locker,
If you believe nothing else, believe this. If I COULD do research and publish a book, I would. It would not likely be about climbing but if there was someway I could make the time I waste here worthwhile I would do so. I don't have research skills and I don't know how to go about it.
That aside, there is a whole ethics issue you bring up. Here is a fantastic article which addresses this very issue you bring up. It is about a woman who did this very thing.
http://www.colorado.edu/Sociology/gimenez/papers/lies.html
In the current millieu, doing research on subjects without their consent is considered highly unethical and would likely result in harsh censure on my job even if I could manage to get it published. Reputable journals would not publish covert research; it is "politically incorrect."
I would have to first declare my intent to study you all and then get it past the IRB which body I would have to convice that I had measures in place for "damage control" should I inadvertantly cause any of you to go off the deep end - like causing one of you to have a nervous breakdown or else go out and axe murder 10 people.
The best I could do would be a book for the lay press and it likely would not sell well given the number of climbers relative to the general population.
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Rajmit
Social climber
Changi, Singapore
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1. National Park Service officials.
2. There are usually bulletins at enterances to the park and at ranger stations. The punishment is usually warnings and fines. There are rarely arrests unless in extreme cases.
3. Anyone is entitled to enter a national park under the parameters set by NPS officials at that location.
4. Sure, but there's nothing serious.
I agree with Locker, why don't you go do some research on the NPS website? They should have links to major national parks on their navbar.
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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Rajmit=LEB
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2006 - 08:21pm PT
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Crimp,
It is a wonderful article about the "Fisher Folk" study done by Carolyn Ellis. Do a google search for "Spies Like Us - When Sociologist Deceive their subjects" authored by Carolyn Ellis. It is a fantastic study and makes a powerful statement. After reading it, search for her follow up statements which are very interesting. I have them all as pdf files if you need them, just email me. I use it for my bioethics course. Also look up Laud Humphrey - The Tearoom Study which carries this same theme yet further. They are both fascinating studies on the ethics of covert sociologic research.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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I teach Methods so the ethics stuff is something near and dear to me! Laud Humphreys was a Washington Univ grad student at the time of the Tearoom Trade Work. This was conducted in St. Louis' very own Forest Park. I have the original Milgrim book - this work was super amazing. I love that book. There is so much unethical stuff out there - stuff the government did to folks without their knowledge. Tuskegee Syphillis.... I could go on and on. I collect these excellent ethics-related research pieces. Psych definitely has the best stuff.
I'll check out this one you've pointed out.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Lois,
Are you interested in the formal NPS rules or the somewhat informal and flexible rules that climbers--most--follow among themselves while on the rock?
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locker
Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
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I am not being a dick here Lois...
But I am really curious about your fascination with climbing and climbers...
What gives??? (great opportunity to be really "long winded" by the way...)...
why here??? Your "Pat" answer has always been that many here are very interesting and intellegent etc...
Well that is equally true on almost any sight I'd think...
People in general are very interesting IMHO...
Also "smarts" and climbing sometimes are not the "norm"...LOL!!!
PS I could write a book about whatever I want and do research however I felt worked and regardless of what others "Claim" to be Ethical???... Well... you do what you feel is needed to get the job done... So that one does not "Wash" with me either...
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Rajmit
Social climber
Changi, Singapore
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She's trying to figure out if she can cut it as a rock guru. Apparently booksmarts are highly coveted in the field of climbing; it has nothing to do with personal fitness.
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2006 - 08:32pm PT
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Crimp,
We do a whole section on ethics in research in my bioethics course. We also Milgram and Humphrey studies, as well, but the Ellis study is my favorite in this regard. Make sure you get her follow-up response when she was confronted by the subjects.
Also, Crimp, the most dramatic one of all is the "Monster Study" described by Jim Deyer in the Mercury News. Do a google search for Ethics and Orphans - The Monster Study and you should find the article easily enough. This one will absolutely blow your mind. Again, if you have trouble finding any of the articles I have all the pdf files - just email me and I send them along.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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And why does the Rajsh*t still hang around? that would be a great study all by it self.
You got nothing, boy.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: I have all the answers for you. Sadly Rimjob is in this thread and it is thus moved up on the Def Con scale. I would hate to waste my wisdom and time a thread that will likely get nuked. Shortly AssDad will be here too, and they can start the countdown banter. Out.....
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locker
Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
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this should be fun and interesting...
tick.
tick..
tick...
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LEB
climber
Glen Gardner
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2006 - 08:40pm PT
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Locker,
I think it is less an issue of fascination with Climbers and Climbing then it is just happening to be here and finding alot of interesting things. I have a lot of curiosity about many things and I tend to ask a lot of questions, in the general sense. I find people and what they do very interesting. That is why you and I were on the phone so long. If you were instead say a horse racer or a jockey we would likely have talked about that.
If I were say going out to dinner with someone here likely we would not be talking all that much about climbing. I would likely be getting them to talk about themselves and the conversation would go into a lot of subjects (not unlike what we did). If someone asks me questions about me, I will answer them readily enough but typically that does not happen all that much. Usually people are more than willing to talk about themselves and if I think they are interesting people, I will encourage it.
If you think back to our long conversation, you told me a good deal about yourself and asked me relatively few questions. If you had asked, I would have answered them but you were more than willing to talk about a whole variety of subjects and questions I asked you. It is not the climbing per se that is so interesting about this site but the people.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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But I am really curious about your fascination with climbing and climbers...
Another one in the creel! Not as big as your last haul though, Lois. That was really a masterpiece, one that will go down in the annals of Internet history. I am in awe of your prowress.
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