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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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Rajmit=LEB
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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I teach Methods so the ethics stuff is something near and dear to me! Laud Humphreys was a Washington Univ grad student at the time of the Tearoom Trade Work. This was conducted in St. Louis' very own Forest Park. I have the original Milgrim book - this work was super amazing. I love that book. There is so much unethical stuff out there - stuff the government did to folks without their knowledge. Tuskegee Syphillis.... I could go on and on. I collect these excellent ethics-related research pieces. Psych definitely has the best stuff.
I'll check out this one you've pointed out.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Lois,
Are you interested in the formal NPS rules or the somewhat informal and flexible rules that climbers--most--follow among themselves while on the rock?
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Wonder
climber
WA
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And why does the Rajsh*t still hang around? that would be a great study all by it self.
You got nothing, boy.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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LEB: I have all the answers for you. Sadly Rimjob is in this thread and it is thus moved up on the Def Con scale. I would hate to waste my wisdom and time a thread that will likely get nuked. Shortly AssDad will be here too, and they can start the countdown banter. Out.....
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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But I am really curious about your fascination with climbing and climbers...
Another one in the creel! Not as big as your last haul though, Lois. That was really a masterpiece, one that will go down in the annals of Internet history. I am in awe of your prowress.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Except that Rajmit answered your questions, truthfully and sucinctly.
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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"Typically those skills are taught at the PhD level and I have a masters degree."
Not in the hard sciences. I did shitloads of research in grad school for a MS.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Good questions
It's fairly informal though no less binding for that. It's also regional, and local.
That static from someone no longer acknowledged isn't even vaguely close, that, coulda been from a book, obviouslly irrelevant.
The 'real' rules come from local consensus. A certain amount overlaps between areas; ie weighting the rope in any geographic zone makes a climb not 'free,' but liebacking a crack that can be jammed is considered 'good style,' in some limited venues.
other examples;
Some places have 'ground-up' Fa traditions, some don't.
Areas with softer rock have more intricate concepts about what is acceptable in FA (and subsequent ascents) viz a vie (sp) pounding iron.
Some places don't blink when bolts get added to existing climbs, generally speaking they are chopped.
The list goes on.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I'll bite, but I don't think it will do any good...
1. Who makes the “rules” about climbing esp about climbing in a National Park. One might think it was the National Park Service (NPS) but such would seem such is not the case. As a hiker the rules are clearly set forth by the NPS and enforced by same. There is little question of what is or is not “allowed” or else who may use the hiking trails.
There are rules in the National Parks, climbers sometimes follow them, sometimes not. Often climbers are in places no one else is, has been or will ever be, so they often take advantage of that fact to bend the formal rules a bit in order to climb and put up climbs.
In an area, the local's will usually determine what the "rules" are. Locals are usually the people who are in the area the most. If someone comes in and does something out of line with the local style and ethics, the usual outcome is that that thing is "erased." Since the guide book author is usually a local, the description of routes, the description of the style and esthetic and ethic is in the hands of the locals to define.
Issues that arise between the locals are settled essentially in the same way, except that there can be protracted battles over routes, e.g. the route destruction craze brought on in Tuolumne Meadows in the 70's (?) when Higgins and others disagreed over style and routes were altered on both "sides" of the fight. I believe this is refered to in the Forum.
"2. Where (and how) do potential climbers learn these “rules”? How are they enforced? Is there some legitimate means by which persons become acquainted with said rules. Or rather, do people “learn” by getting beat up or having their equipment damaged or even life-threatening maneuvers such has cutting ropes, bolts, etc. Is there a “territorial” component inherent in any of this? Is there pissing and squatting going on? "
Learning the "rules" is done by the younger generation learning from the older generation. This is often replaced these days by reading the front matter in guidebooks. But the accepted way of putting new routes up in an area is to first pay your dues climbing in that area, and to make contact with the locals, at some point the newcomers become the locals. Think of the Stonemasters at Suicide Rock, who came as newcomers but became the locals, essentially.
Newcomers can put routes up, or "scoop" the locals on what is thought, by the locals, to be important unclimbed routes. This happens often, but if the newcomer does the line before the locals, in the style of the locals, then it is accepted. If not in the style, there may be problems... but it depends on just how bad the infraction is.
Sometimes the locals change the rules.. once again this can cause problems, or not... Bridwell "accelerated" the aging of routes by beating out cracks simulating the action of many parties aiding a route, and thus allowing a free passage on chipped holds. This was "controversial". Jardine manufactured holds on the Nose to make a free passage possible, this was "very controversial." Kauk and Bachar had a disagreement over style... didn't Ament also have a falling out of sorts?
Rules can change, they are not immutable.
"3. Who is “entitled” to use NPS facilities including El Cap. Is it anyone who pays taxes? Is it persons who have been there the longest? Is it persons who use the park the most frequently or live the shortest distance away? Is the “right” to use the park facilities in someway related to “might” i.e. the “might makes right” dynamics? Is freedom to climb in the park dependant on membership (or at least acceptance into) in a clique of some sort?"
Everyone can do anything... within the strictures of the law.
"4. Are any intimidation tactics used to keep newcomers out? What would happen to two men who say lived in Maine and who set out on a vacation together to climb for the first time in El Cap. Would they encounter resistence from persons already there and thus have to be “tough” enough to fight for the right to use these facilities. Do some people have “more rights” then others in this regard? Is this a “Law of the Jungle” dynamics issue or can any taxpayer and/or his family use the climbing routes in Yosemite? What about other climbing areas in other places? . "
Frequently newcomers can be intimidated by the locals, but not necessarily because the locals are intentionally intimidating, but because the "bar" of success may be set high by the actions of the locals. Tuolumne Meadows routes have a repuation of being runout (long distance between expansion bolts which would mean long falls), it is intimidating to newcomers. Locals know what it takes and seem to be accepting of the local style. If a newcomer went up and added bolts to a climb, the locals would go up and chop the added bolts. Check out the "Hair Raiser Buttress" thread in the Forum.
Families climbing in the park are usually irrelevant... unless the nearby climbers feel that they may have to be a part of a rescue operation, the first sign that this might happen usually has the locals going somewhere else. But it is not likely that the family will be climbing in the same area as the locals.
There may be strange actions from locals, like chopping bolts in areas that families are likely to use. This sort of action is inexplicable and if the choppers are identified much slander is heaped on them for doing something stupid.
If newcomers are intimidated by the locals, then they probably are not up to the local standards and need a period of apprenticeship before they can challenge the locals. You challenge the locals by climbing above their standards, in their style or a better style.
It's all about the climbing.
LEB, I don't expect much of this to make sense to you. As John said, you need to move beyond your normal place of comfort...
Jimi Hendrix
Are You Experienced?
If you can just get your mind together
Uh-then come on across to me
Well hold hands and then well watch the sunrise
From the bottom of the sea
But first, are you experienced?
Uh-have you ever been experienced-uh?
Well, I have
(well) I know, I know, youll probably scream and cry
That your little world wont let you go
But who in your measly little world, (-uh)
Are you tryin to prove to that youre
Made out of gold and-uh, cant be sold
So-uh, are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced? (-uh)
Well, I have
Uh, let me prove it to you, yeah
Trumpets and violins I can-uh, hear in the distance
I think theyre callin our name
Maybe now you cant hear them,
But you will, ha-ha, if you just
Take hold of my hand
Ohhh, but are you experienced?
Have you ever been experienced?
Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Good Sh#T Ed. Lois dont sweat the small stuff = sh#t.
I WILL answer your email sometime.
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WBraun
climber
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Pretty damn good Ed. I enjoyed reading it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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There are areas where you are sure to find non-locals at well known climbing areas. Usually the non-locals are climbing the popular climbs... the locals may be off doing something else, like scoping out new lines, doing obscure lines, or climbing the more difficult climbs... but they will also appear in the more popular areas and are occasionally rude. They can also be polite, and everything in between...
A couple of examples...
On one of my first visits to the Valley I was drinking beer with my buddy Donnie (Chambers) on a sort of gazeebo structure across from the gas station that used to be next to Camp 4. I was probably 17 at the time... Donnie was at least 21. We were just a couple of climbers hanging out, a gaggle of teenage girls come by and strike up a conversation, they are from the Bronx and are in the Valley on vacation. The ask if we are climbers and we reply as you guess any young guy would "of course." At some point one of the girls sits in Donnie's lap "do you think I'm too forward?" she honks in that distinct accent. About that time a LEO wanders up and starts to get the situation back under control. The last thing he wants is tourist interaction with climbers... sort of the same as with bears. If climbers are to be tolerated at all, it is because they seem to be a tourist attraction. I am informed that the Valley has its own jail, etc, etc... fortunately I am bearded and the LEO doesn't suspect that I am 4 years underage.
While some doubt it, there is still a difference in the way climbers are treated and the way tourists are treated...
But the LEOs are trying to avoid a scene like the restaraunt scene in "Animal House", you remember Beloshi... "bring me your women!" You can read about this in many of the history threads in the Forum.
OK, another common occurence is a local climber acting borish around the non-locals... climbing a climb drunk, clipping every third bolt, commenting to a non-local on another route "be one with the rock" burp...
or standing at the bottom of a crag popular with the non-locals and screaming "you're going to die!" (see threads on the Forum about this)
or climbing a popular climb quickly (since the local has probably done it a million times when the non-locals weren't there) getting above everyone and screaming "ROCK!" which cause absolute chaos below as people cower from the fusillade they expect to be coming down.
Once I had three members of the gym I frequent out to climb in Yosemite Valley, their first outdoor climb. It had rained and put a damper on our little outing, but we eventually wandered over to Manure Pile Buttress to do After Six, an architypal "non-local" popular climb frequently soloed by locals. We met Werner and Merry over there, they were getting ready to solo, as the rain had chased the usual crowds away. Werner stood off tending his business, Merry asked what we were up to... she ended up giving one of my guys a really hard time, I don't know how the conversation got going in the direction it went in, and she had a good arguement going, my charges didn't know who the hell Merry and Werner were... anyway at some point we went back to the car to get our stuff and Werner and Merry launched up solo, impressed the hell out of my group, especially when it took us six hours to do what they did in maybe 20 minutes...
local, non-local interactions...
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todd-gordon
climber
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I make up my own rules.....I don't trust the government to be in MY best interests as a climber. I stand by my rules, live by my rules, and hopefully I can continue this nonsense for many years to come. I try to carry on the traditions of rock climbing that I have learned since I started climbing in 1972. Climbing is changing, and so are our wild areas. Government regulations and restrictions and like Indian underware....the creep up on us every year....(No disrespect to Native Americans intended...). We live in a very special time where BIG adventures are STILL very,very much avaliable......grab the tiger by the tail and the bull by the balls NOW........I think in the future, our government plans to save us from ourselves.......take away the "craziness" that helps keep us so sane.........
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Ed's got a website? nobody tells me nothin'.
I read that lyric above and I have to pause as I read, to hear it in the right cadence and timing. How evocative are those words I've known by heart for the last thirty(?) years?
-I like to think "I have/am." But I don't think I've been to the crossroads of of infinity just yet, so i don't really know. -guess I do know and I'm not!
But, outsider shit; a tale from Mr Shipley, one that I have recounted before.
Two gre-, er fellows from a square shaped rocky mtn state ( the one with the most land over 10k') Blew in to Camp four to make their mark. Parking was limited so they had to settle for the back row. They spied Msrs Braun & Cosgrove seemingly beached in folding lawn chairs lazily absorbing prana.
"Complacent cali climbers," one of them was heard to mutter.
The arrivees set up camp and went climbing. When the time was right Scott and Werner split to go run up Astroman in (then) record time.
-enies return to camp to find 'Those Guys' back in their chairs.
"We just climbed,-----, & -----, & etc. And those lightweights didn't do jack! Especially that guy (he pointed out the older of the two.) I know he didn't move the whole time!"
"I guess they just had nowhere better to be," said Walt.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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"Typically those skills are taught at the PhD level and I have a masters degree."
"Not in the hard sciences. I did shitloads of research in grad school for a MS."
Also not so for much of Social Science. I too did bucketloads of research as a Masters Student.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Nice stuff Ed!
There are lots of folks in this world with extremely active minds.
They have almost unlimited energy to bring to bear upon subjects which interest them.
Lois is one of those people.
So are many of us SuperTalkoers.
It was me, me, me, who asked Lois to go to WOS thread.
My idea.
mine, mine, mine.
(thanks btw lois)
(was that experience in some sense not instructive to you?)
(sheesh, it's almost like having gone climbing!)
("they" can take from your input what they will)
Climbers tend to do a lot of posturing and shuckin' and jivin'.
In contrast Lois presents with nearly inscrutable candor.
This throws a lot of us haggler jokers off base.
Lois a troll?
Not!
Yipee!
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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You are a riot, Roy.
But, Lois is still a troll, just a singular species of troll--she breaks all the rules of posting and trolling, yet is believable in a sort of unbelievable way. It would take some sort of brilliance I've never seen to create LEB out of thin air.
Something that could be said of you, too. Heehe.
She does get us all tied up in our underwear, doesn't she?
Buzz
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Werd, Roger
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Tarbuster=LEB=Unibonger
(Don't you dare blow my cover on this one Crimpster)
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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DMT & LEB
Mark my words.
-johnx01
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jstan
climber
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From Elements of Style by William Strunk,Jr.(1918)
"Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer makes all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline. but that every word tell."
A 70 page text that changes.....................everything.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Welcome to ST land, John.
It seems very funny to me that you are reading and commenting on the writing style--none apparant--here in ST land.
Best, Roger
PS (Edit)--For the ST campers who don't know, jstan is John Stannard, one of the major 'sparks' that created the early 1970s hard free climbing. By way of introduction, from an article published in Rock and Ice in 1994:
"...When Stannard free climbed the eight-foot wide Shawangunks roof on Foops in 1967, it changed climbers' perceptions about what was possible. It was five years before anyone else could repeat it. For many years, Foops was among the hardest climbs in this country, and a "destination climb" for foreign visitors. Through the mid seventies, Stannard continued creating some of the hardest climbs in the world, while introducing a revolutionary idea -- repeated falling. Jim Erickson, comments, "Stannard saw that if you could fall three or four times, you could fall twenty-five times." More than anyone, Stannard shaped the course of contemporary climbing.
"...By 1970, as more climbers entered the sport, Stannard worried the greater numbers would exacerbate land and rock erosion, and undermine the quality of the climbing experience. Aid climbing particularly concerned him, because of its greater wear on rock.
"In his campaign to free climb the remaining aid routes, Stannard enlisted the help of the next generation of Gunks stars: Wunsch, Bragg, and Barber. Kindred spirits with the requisite physical talents, under Stannard's influence, they began to chance more falls and push into higher grades.
"Their efforts were wildly successful, producing many of the enduring hard Shawangunks classics. Of 33 aid routes existing in 1972, two years later, they had free climbed all but two. Russ Clune, who freed the last, Twilight Zone, earlier this year, sums up Stannard's success. "He persuaded people that free climbing was the hip thing to do."
"In tribute, the other admiring Gunks climbers dubbed Stannard and company, "The Front Four." Rich Romano says, "Everything they did made news. We considered them the "A Team" and we were the "B Team." When other climbers repeated the Front Four routes several years later, they joked they made, "The First Human Ascents."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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"So if newcomers came in and did some great stuff i.e. climbed better than locals they would not be harrassed per se just because they were not in the "clique." '
You can read about some of this in the Forum, it happens a lot in the Valley, and over the years some really good climbers came and did things that the "locals" were planning on doing, but just got scooped... Valley locals have also gone out and done it in other areas too. Often, these newcomers are accepted as part of the local tribe.
"Now if new comers came in and did everything great and set records or whatever it is that you folks do, would some of the old guard get pissed that someone was stealing their thunder and "showing them up" so to speak. Might we not have "problems" on that count i.e. some hotshot (or couple of hotshots) comes in out of nowhere and starts outperforming some of the locals. Could this not become an issue?"
Sure, Henry Barber in the Valley, Henry had a pretty big ego (and could back it up) came and shook things up... see the Stonemaster stories about Bud (Ivan) Couch at Suicide, the old guard. These events are moments described by "...the times, they are a changin'" as the old guard reluctantly recognize the new as taking the game to the next level.
"Also the various women climbers - do they have to be - (to put it delicately) - "friendly" with one of the local "big cats" to be in that crowd and doing those routes in the first place or do they literally get their on their own merit. One can't help but wonder that it could not hurt to "know" one or more top dog climbers to be doing those routes or does that not particularly matter in this game. "
Take a lot of young people and put them together with a lot of down time and things happen... back in the day the number of women climbers was rather small... you have to ask them your question. But you can also read the story of John Long coming to the Valley and being shown around by Jim Bridwell to get a sense of what knowing a local big cat is all about... on John's second day, he was on the ascent of a particularly storied climb, 10.96 which doesn't see much traffic these days... it's got a rep.
"P.S. I saw your website following some links you provided and it is REALLY nice. The links though are not working. Those pics of you and I assume your wife look really nice. She looked very classy."
Debbie didn't like the picture because she thought it made her look too serious and mature... I liked it though. I don't do much with the website yet, but park images over there that I serve here... and the data base thing.
Hopefully I'll get to working on something more elaborate in the future.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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True. I find that all depts in all disciplines vary greatly in terms of research. For example, for my undergrad, I did a year of working on a research team at the Medical Center in Houston (on Hydrocephalic children and the acquisition of language). When working toward later degrees, I was attracted to very research oriented depts regardless of the degree. Other depts emphasized other things - all important things - in my opinion.
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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jstan, is there a typo in your Strunk quote?
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Ouch!
climber
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"But, Lois is still a troll, just a singular species of troll"
In my opinion, this may be the only coherent comment made here in two weeks.
Roger may be psychic....or just an astute observer of the obvious.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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LEB=fWilliam Strunk, Jr.
sorry, couldn't make the real inverse symbol stick
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2006 - 12:20am PT
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LEB - you are missing the point again... you are focused on the people and the groups, "locals," the "newcomers", the "in crowd," the "families"...
the climbers are focused on climbing. People got together to climb, to do new climbs, to push the limits as far as they could, to advance technologies and methods.
Sometimes there were well defined groups, sometimes not. Some opinions mattered, some didn't and some were ignored. At a point in time, climbing became a newsworthy sport and more and more people started to do it... magazines reported on the happenings, and some people wanted recognition for their feats.
Who is the "badest climber"? and does anyone really care? we can appreciate the accomplishments of other climbers, or wonder why they are doing what they are doing...
Of course there was a whole society with a sociology... people got pissed, people hooked up, people strutted, but all those people climbed.
You cannot understand how this particular universe works without understanding the force that puts it into motion and generates the dynamics. That force is climbing.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2006 - 12:55am PT
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My descriptions were meant to be illustrative of climbing in general, and not specifically about WoS, which can be viewed in the general context.
I would not touch the WoS thing with a ten foot pole, for sure. I have no opinion about it as a climb. It does seem to have been reported from a very biased view point which put the FA team in a bad light based on erroneous information. That is regretful.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:06am PT
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Scuffy b:
I reply even though there is a risk(albeit small) of hijacking this thread. I believe not, but no one is perfect.
Interesting thoughts here. With a little more care, the ideas might be made compelling, I think.
FWIW,
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:41am PT
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Hi Lois,
Do the trains keep you up at night?
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:47am PT
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Lois,
Do you not live right next to the tracks?
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 10, 2006 - 02:14am PT
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Rajmit,
Its a local call for you.
Juan
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:15am PT
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Very funny radical!
(post deleted?)
I like lemons too.
So Lois,
to get back on track:
It seems like this might've been covered, but let me take a crack at it.
To distinguish between national parks, personal rights, and all that neat stuff on one hand and climbing sub culture at large on the other:
Understand that for the most part, climbing as a subculture was once antiestablishment or counterculture. Turf war like behavior notwithstanding, most of what we are dealing with here are sets of ethical and stylistic considerations meant to do two things: one, to preserve the natural environment and two, to uphold and drive up levels of athletic achievement and artistic expression. Hence: standards, rules.
There's a whole thread here in this nugget: when is climbing considered art?
John Bachar once quoted some artistic maxim: “If it is art, it is not for everyone and if it is for everyone, it is not art”.
Right from the get-go Lois, this suggests subtle understanding. And yes, perhaps exclusivity. Buried deep in those WOS threads was a statement by Jaybro and pointed to the WOS guys, not at all meant as damaging, but it was probing: he said, to paraphrase, “An artist does not explain her work, are you guys artists?”
Now that seems counter to this whole discussion of rules, I know. But I would suggest that rules in climbing, are the basis for implementing the craft. And if you are familiar with one of the definitions that has been around for a long time about art, it is that there is a distinction between craft and art. And it goes something like, first, you master your craft, you are technician. At some point, you turn a corner and begin to implement an intuitive synthesis. Statements are made, and quite often not understood, except by the few who may or may not be deeply engaged in a particular movement.
So this perhaps explains a few things. It sets off the difference between governance of our citizenry in general, and the subculture of governance, which climbers express. It also gets at the heart of the matter of a lot of these questions you raise in terms of territorial behavior. Sure there's territorial behavior, but more importantly there is this highly codified (craft) and somewhat flexible form of expression (art), which does evolve.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:37am PT
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Nice post, Roy.
Lois, there may be a teachable moment here also. Think about all the stuff that Roy has posted that is grounded in his goofy, riotous persona of Tarbuster. Then think about the depth of thought on linking craft and art to rules and self policing. Says a lot about the climber's world.
(Also think about how clearly and concisely he laid it out--Strunk material, I'd say.)
The reason that climbers are more or less left to their own policing within the national parks is somewhere within the NPS there is a heartfelt understanding that only climbers can understand what is appropriate. The amazing think is that it pretty much works. I would even state that with the excesses and wrong headedness of the WoS debacle, on balance, from a community perspective, it worked.
Cool, huh?
Buzz
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:10am PT
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yes rog,
i am intentionaly goofy.
did you do your homework and peruse my mussy nebula?
again, in the interests of your study of the 80's.
and in the pursuit of the zany...
oh and thanks for the compliment.
and- how about that visit from Stannard?
we should be so lucky to have this forum infused with the likes of JS.
the outstanding historically relevant contributors are indeed welcome.
we need to draw their participation,
by whatever means and applications of fair conduct which are required to do so.
Or what I mean to say is: if we keep it interesting and behave, maybe they'll join in!
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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Haven't gotten to the Mussy Nebula yet. Got all frog tied up in reading the complete history of WoS, starting with the original Greek written in 644 BC.
John Stannard has posted on the forum several times in the last few months. As best as I can see, no one has engaged. That is why I posted my snippet of his history upstream. I knew all about 'Foops' from my earliest years as a climber, even though I never climbed in the Gunks. I was also close to Bragg and Wunsch who were younger compatriots of his.
It would be very cool to have John link up with this motley crew--whether it is ‘Foops’ at 5.11c in 1967 or ‘Elements of Style.’
He predates just about everyone here, I think. I even understand that he hung around with Shrunk debating usage. Can’t confirm it though.
Buzz
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:46am PT
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cool.
i re-worked that last statement until my eyes crossed and my strunk ankle shackles got hummered up around my nose!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:52am PT
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I had no idea that was John Stannard till you pointed it out to us, Roger, thanks.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:52am PT
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man, i'd like to read the umpteen million prior posts on WOS.
as it is, i just stumbled into the room, banged into some lampshades and tripped over a few wires and tried to throw on a few light switches and skidaddle without getting any spit, poop or bubble gum in my hair.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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Hey Lois, 'Elements of Style' is short and concise. Hint, hint.
I think that the answer to your question is that WoS was grounded in climbing ethics and style. Similar kinds of arguments have been waged within the climbing community since at least the lassoing of "Lost Arrow" in 1946—righted by Salate and Nelson climbing up the tip with then standard aid techniques a year or so later.
Most advances in climbing have come with battles over ethic and style. In some cases a new standard of climbing is established and someone will do a climb in the older style. This has happened on El Cap in early 1960s. Sometimes new climbing styles break old ethical standards and there is an uneasy period as the ‘rightness’ of the new style is evaluated. This is an on going, never ending process. As several ST campers have pointed out, climbing makes sense only within the rules and the rules change when someone does something new that is harder (or better) than the old way.
The most famous dust up occurred in 1970 when a climber, Warren Harding, did the first ascent of a new route on El Cap (The Wall of the Early Morning Light or Dawn Wall) in a style that was not accepted by the rest of the regulars in the Valley. The most famous of those regulars, Royal Robbins, did the second ascent and ‘chopped’ a good section of the lower part of the route. Then Robbins realized, mid-chopping, that his actions were a mistake. Royal realized that the climb was hard and it wasn’t his place to judge it unilaterally.
What is most interesting about that episode is that Royal climbed the route to chop it and he reevaluated his intent based on what he found. We should all be so blessed with such a combination of active responsibility and restraint. Classy.
The other interesting thing that came out of that earlier debacle is that it left deep wounds among old friends. In hind sight, as far as I know, everyone who took a strong stand regrets the outcome. They let their valid disagreements about style and ethics break apart a community that had more in common than it had in differences.
That’s why I think that the debate here on ST about WoS is so heartening. I have read some posts stating that something so old should simply be forgotten. But this is not the way it works with climbers…climbing statements (at the level of new routes on El Cap) are deep personal affairs—nobody just walks away.
The issue of turf and tribal instincts are very real in climbing. I don’t know where it comes from but it seems to be universal. You see this at all levels to varying degrees. But generally there is senior climber who commands the respect of the climbing community and keeps an order. The personality and leadership skills of that ‘leader’ will almost always determine what specific course will be taken to address new ethical issues. Generally a secure and thoughtful leader will keep order and allow ethical issues to be aired and resolved without serious,lasting harm to any of the participants.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
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I'm going to take Lois’s question straight on here.
I'll aspire to brevity as well.
Lois,
Pooping on somebody’s stuff qualifies as adolescent, turf war behavior. So does miss-representation of evident structural form.
Had we the wherewithal as an active and engaged community to debate the actual ethical and stylistic factors involved during the deployment of Wings of Steel, we may have been able to render a meaningful conclusion as to its acceptance, whether this would have deemed it an effort within the guidelines of accepted practice, an effort stretching excepted practices, or an effort requiring acceptance of new practices.
I am guessing it was quite a bit out-of-the-box in terms of accepted practices, it was incidentaly bold, and as has been asserted by Werner Braun and Ammon, it so happens that few people are truly interested in doing that much tedious hooking. But this last statement is somewhat irrelevant, until we bring an argument which includes the community's uptake of the contribution as expressed by increased traffic as essential to its acceptance. I personally knew Rob Slater (a person who is known to have engaged the route) pretty well and I knew he was keen on “all things adventure” including thinking and acting out-of-the-box.
So I am saying, yes this was turf war stuff, but not in total.
But because of the activities surrounding it, it is hard to say whether it truly deserved the derisive response which it garnered, merely based on its disposition as a breach of style. (nothing should be actualy pooped on).
Anything which attempts to reach beyond accepted practices is likely to be resisted or even scorned. Acceptance is the exception.
I'd say it would have had to have been accepted as a new formulation of style and elements of turf wars ecclipsed an opportunity to fairly judge it as an acceptable extension of the norm.
(I don't think that was concise, but there it is)
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 03:39pm PT
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Yes Lois pretty much, that's it.
There are two styles of accepted climbing.
Free climbing: hands and feet to advance, ropes and gear (including bolts) as a safety net only.
Aid climbing: using the gear (including bolts) to advance, again ropes as a safety net.
Wings of Steel: great big slippery slab portion of the mountain, (very distinct from the vertical portions of the mountain which typically have at least hairline cracks), the slab with few if any actual cracks, apparently not too many bolts, so some pretty risky use of small hooks as aid climbing gear.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
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aid climbing typically applies to rock which cannot be done with only hands and feet (free).
so, with some overlap, the 2 categories are distinct, that said, yes, there is sometimes dispute.
aid, prior to wings, was, in my opinion, typically focused on exploiting little weaknesses, such as hairline cracks, using pretty much the same tools (gear, be it wedges, cams, pitons, bolts) which free climbers use.
now: aid still uses more destructive tools, so the alteration caused is at issue, sometimes.
what the wings guys "invented" or rather introduced, was the application of very tedious use of hooks, requiring many many falls, to climb a very blank area of great height.
they did very much try to minimize their use of bolts, according to "newer" information at hand. they also admit to doing a very small amount of tiny bits of chipping, to help the hooks "stick" so that they could use less bolts. many aid climbers have resorted to this tactic of "doctoring" the hook placements.
also of note, is that free climbers hardly ever "need" to use pitons anymore, where aid climbers do in fact use pitons and other things which are progressively damaging to the rock.
keep in mind, aid climbers access terrain that is incredibly wild.
as time goes by, free climbers get better and make free ascents of aid routes.
it is a grand procession!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:14pm PT
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well done lois.
the miniscule correction i offer to your understanding:
the nose and many other aid climbs have gone "clean" (no damaging pitons applied) for quite some time,
even before lynny freed the route.
to wit: since the "clean climbing revolution" of the 70's,
only very difficult aid climbs merit rock degredation techniques.
in the end,
even in the interim,
the mountain don't care.
time fer a bike ride and a bite to eat.
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:19pm PT
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jstan, I was just wondering about the mixed tenses.
As I have said before, I believe thread hijacking to
be a phantasm promoted by people who have a hidden
agenda.
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roslyn
Trad climber
washington
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:45pm PT
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hey leb, why wouldn't you have respect for lynn hill if she free soloed the nose?
just asking?
most of your posts about lynn hill come across negative
just asking
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 10, 2006 - 07:52pm PT
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Hey Lois, just a request here.
Please do not tell us again that you think Lynn Hill is pretty. I am sure that you do not mean it in a demeaning way, but her looks have nothing to do with her heroic status amongst climbers.
Also, please do not debate this. It is a simple request that can be honored silently.
Thanks, Roger
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roslyn
Trad climber
washington
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Aug 10, 2006 - 09:51pm PT
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no, she does. leb has stated she has read hill's bio.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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Like Tarbuster, I just stumbled into this. The generosity in this discussion is what grabs your attention. The last thirty years have been barren, tragically barren. It seemed a poisoned desert in which nothing could grow.
I will tell a joke on myself if you will. I was so excited by the tone and intelligence of your discussion I wrote five paragraphs explaining how I thought the generosity I found there was the solution to most of the problems bedeviling our pursuit. But when I applied Strunk's rule of cutting out all unnecessary words, I found none of them were necessary. You folks are clearly aware of what will be needed to solve those problems. Of the hundreds of texts I have studied, Strunk is the one I admire most. So I threw it all away.
A small story though says something about where I think we are today. A friend once told me climbing with Robins was like stepping into an elevator on the ground floor. You knew you were going up. Well, you folks are going up. And what a ride it is going to be.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:09pm PT
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ummmm... Russ don't care what you say about Ms. Hill. It was someone else. ( That is unless you decide to slag off "little Lynnie" then I'll be back to stand up for my friend )
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:10pm PT
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I find it VERY interesting that while speaking of Lynn Hill, a slip of the tongue (keyboard) comes from LEB as she talks about RUSS (instead of Roger). Russ Raffa?
She stated above: "I very much want to pass an additional comment to clarify my remarks regarding appearance but Russ feels strongly that such not be done."
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| Messages 1 - 54 of total 54 in this topic |
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