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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Tarbuster=LEB=Unibonger
(Don't you dare blow my cover on this one Crimpster)
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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DMT & LEB
Mark my words.
-johnx01
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jstan
climber
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From Elements of Style by William Strunk,Jr.(1918)
"Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer makes all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline. but that every word tell."
A 70 page text that changes.....................everything.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Welcome to ST land, John.
It seems very funny to me that you are reading and commenting on the writing style--none apparant--here in ST land.
Best, Roger
PS (Edit)--For the ST campers who don't know, jstan is John Stannard, one of the major 'sparks' that created the early 1970s hard free climbing. By way of introduction, from an article published in Rock and Ice in 1994:
"...When Stannard free climbed the eight-foot wide Shawangunks roof on Foops in 1967, it changed climbers' perceptions about what was possible. It was five years before anyone else could repeat it. For many years, Foops was among the hardest climbs in this country, and a "destination climb" for foreign visitors. Through the mid seventies, Stannard continued creating some of the hardest climbs in the world, while introducing a revolutionary idea -- repeated falling. Jim Erickson, comments, "Stannard saw that if you could fall three or four times, you could fall twenty-five times." More than anyone, Stannard shaped the course of contemporary climbing.
"...By 1970, as more climbers entered the sport, Stannard worried the greater numbers would exacerbate land and rock erosion, and undermine the quality of the climbing experience. Aid climbing particularly concerned him, because of its greater wear on rock.
"In his campaign to free climb the remaining aid routes, Stannard enlisted the help of the next generation of Gunks stars: Wunsch, Bragg, and Barber. Kindred spirits with the requisite physical talents, under Stannard's influence, they began to chance more falls and push into higher grades.
"Their efforts were wildly successful, producing many of the enduring hard Shawangunks classics. Of 33 aid routes existing in 1972, two years later, they had free climbed all but two. Russ Clune, who freed the last, Twilight Zone, earlier this year, sums up Stannard's success. "He persuaded people that free climbing was the hip thing to do."
"In tribute, the other admiring Gunks climbers dubbed Stannard and company, "The Front Four." Rich Romano says, "Everything they did made news. We considered them the "A Team" and we were the "B Team." When other climbers repeated the Front Four routes several years later, they joked they made, "The First Human Ascents."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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"So if newcomers came in and did some great stuff i.e. climbed better than locals they would not be harrassed per se just because they were not in the "clique." '
You can read about some of this in the Forum, it happens a lot in the Valley, and over the years some really good climbers came and did things that the "locals" were planning on doing, but just got scooped... Valley locals have also gone out and done it in other areas too. Often, these newcomers are accepted as part of the local tribe.
"Now if new comers came in and did everything great and set records or whatever it is that you folks do, would some of the old guard get pissed that someone was stealing their thunder and "showing them up" so to speak. Might we not have "problems" on that count i.e. some hotshot (or couple of hotshots) comes in out of nowhere and starts outperforming some of the locals. Could this not become an issue?"
Sure, Henry Barber in the Valley, Henry had a pretty big ego (and could back it up) came and shook things up... see the Stonemaster stories about Bud (Ivan) Couch at Suicide, the old guard. These events are moments described by "...the times, they are a changin'" as the old guard reluctantly recognize the new as taking the game to the next level.
"Also the various women climbers - do they have to be - (to put it delicately) - "friendly" with one of the local "big cats" to be in that crowd and doing those routes in the first place or do they literally get their on their own merit. One can't help but wonder that it could not hurt to "know" one or more top dog climbers to be doing those routes or does that not particularly matter in this game. "
Take a lot of young people and put them together with a lot of down time and things happen... back in the day the number of women climbers was rather small... you have to ask them your question. But you can also read the story of John Long coming to the Valley and being shown around by Jim Bridwell to get a sense of what knowing a local big cat is all about... on John's second day, he was on the ascent of a particularly storied climb, 10.96 which doesn't see much traffic these days... it's got a rep.
"P.S. I saw your website following some links you provided and it is REALLY nice. The links though are not working. Those pics of you and I assume your wife look really nice. She looked very classy."
Debbie didn't like the picture because she thought it made her look too serious and mature... I liked it though. I don't do much with the website yet, but park images over there that I serve here... and the data base thing.
Hopefully I'll get to working on something more elaborate in the future.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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True. I find that all depts in all disciplines vary greatly in terms of research. For example, for my undergrad, I did a year of working on a research team at the Medical Center in Houston (on Hydrocephalic children and the acquisition of language). When working toward later degrees, I was attracted to very research oriented depts regardless of the degree. Other depts emphasized other things - all important things - in my opinion.
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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jstan, is there a typo in your Strunk quote?
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Ouch!
climber
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"But, Lois is still a troll, just a singular species of troll"
In my opinion, this may be the only coherent comment made here in two weeks.
Roger may be psychic....or just an astute observer of the obvious.
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wootles
climber
Gamma Quadrant
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LEB=fWilliam Strunk, Jr.
sorry, couldn't make the real inverse symbol stick
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2006 - 12:20am PT
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LEB - you are missing the point again... you are focused on the people and the groups, "locals," the "newcomers", the "in crowd," the "families"...
the climbers are focused on climbing. People got together to climb, to do new climbs, to push the limits as far as they could, to advance technologies and methods.
Sometimes there were well defined groups, sometimes not. Some opinions mattered, some didn't and some were ignored. At a point in time, climbing became a newsworthy sport and more and more people started to do it... magazines reported on the happenings, and some people wanted recognition for their feats.
Who is the "badest climber"? and does anyone really care? we can appreciate the accomplishments of other climbers, or wonder why they are doing what they are doing...
Of course there was a whole society with a sociology... people got pissed, people hooked up, people strutted, but all those people climbed.
You cannot understand how this particular universe works without understanding the force that puts it into motion and generates the dynamics. That force is climbing.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 10, 2006 - 12:55am PT
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My descriptions were meant to be illustrative of climbing in general, and not specifically about WoS, which can be viewed in the general context.
I would not touch the WoS thing with a ten foot pole, for sure. I have no opinion about it as a climb. It does seem to have been reported from a very biased view point which put the FA team in a bad light based on erroneous information. That is regretful.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:06am PT
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Scuffy b:
I reply even though there is a risk(albeit small) of hijacking this thread. I believe not, but no one is perfect.
Interesting thoughts here. With a little more care, the ideas might be made compelling, I think.
FWIW,
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:41am PT
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Hi Lois,
Do the trains keep you up at night?
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 10, 2006 - 01:47am PT
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Lois,
Do you not live right next to the tracks?
Juan
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 10, 2006 - 02:14am PT
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Rajmit,
Its a local call for you.
Juan
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:15am PT
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Very funny radical!
(post deleted?)
I like lemons too.
So Lois,
to get back on track:
It seems like this might've been covered, but let me take a crack at it.
To distinguish between national parks, personal rights, and all that neat stuff on one hand and climbing sub culture at large on the other:
Understand that for the most part, climbing as a subculture was once antiestablishment or counterculture. Turf war like behavior notwithstanding, most of what we are dealing with here are sets of ethical and stylistic considerations meant to do two things: one, to preserve the natural environment and two, to uphold and drive up levels of athletic achievement and artistic expression. Hence: standards, rules.
There's a whole thread here in this nugget: when is climbing considered art?
John Bachar once quoted some artistic maxim: “If it is art, it is not for everyone and if it is for everyone, it is not art”.
Right from the get-go Lois, this suggests subtle understanding. And yes, perhaps exclusivity. Buried deep in those WOS threads was a statement by Jaybro and pointed to the WOS guys, not at all meant as damaging, but it was probing: he said, to paraphrase, “An artist does not explain her work, are you guys artists?”
Now that seems counter to this whole discussion of rules, I know. But I would suggest that rules in climbing, are the basis for implementing the craft. And if you are familiar with one of the definitions that has been around for a long time about art, it is that there is a distinction between craft and art. And it goes something like, first, you master your craft, you are technician. At some point, you turn a corner and begin to implement an intuitive synthesis. Statements are made, and quite often not understood, except by the few who may or may not be deeply engaged in a particular movement.
So this perhaps explains a few things. It sets off the difference between governance of our citizenry in general, and the subculture of governance, which climbers express. It also gets at the heart of the matter of a lot of these questions you raise in terms of territorial behavior. Sure there's territorial behavior, but more importantly there is this highly codified (craft) and somewhat flexible form of expression (art), which does evolve.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 10, 2006 - 10:37am PT
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Nice post, Roy.
Lois, there may be a teachable moment here also. Think about all the stuff that Roy has posted that is grounded in his goofy, riotous persona of Tarbuster. Then think about the depth of thought on linking craft and art to rules and self policing. Says a lot about the climber's world.
(Also think about how clearly and concisely he laid it out--Strunk material, I'd say.)
The reason that climbers are more or less left to their own policing within the national parks is somewhere within the NPS there is a heartfelt understanding that only climbers can understand what is appropriate. The amazing think is that it pretty much works. I would even state that with the excesses and wrong headedness of the WoS debacle, on balance, from a community perspective, it worked.
Cool, huh?
Buzz
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:10am PT
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yes rog,
i am intentionaly goofy.
did you do your homework and peruse my mussy nebula?
again, in the interests of your study of the 80's.
and in the pursuit of the zany...
oh and thanks for the compliment.
and- how about that visit from Stannard?
we should be so lucky to have this forum infused with the likes of JS.
the outstanding historically relevant contributors are indeed welcome.
we need to draw their participation,
by whatever means and applications of fair conduct which are required to do so.
Or what I mean to say is: if we keep it interesting and behave, maybe they'll join in!
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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Haven't gotten to the Mussy Nebula yet. Got all frog tied up in reading the complete history of WoS, starting with the original Greek written in 644 BC.
John Stannard has posted on the forum several times in the last few months. As best as I can see, no one has engaged. That is why I posted my snippet of his history upstream. I knew all about 'Foops' from my earliest years as a climber, even though I never climbed in the Gunks. I was also close to Bragg and Wunsch who were younger compatriots of his.
It would be very cool to have John link up with this motley crew--whether it is ‘Foops’ at 5.11c in 1967 or ‘Elements of Style.’
He predates just about everyone here, I think. I even understand that he hung around with Shrunk debating usage. Can’t confirm it though.
Buzz
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Aug 10, 2006 - 11:46am PT
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cool.
i re-worked that last statement until my eyes crossed and my strunk ankle shackles got hummered up around my nose!
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