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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Feb 25, 2014 - 12:28am PT
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"...setting forth his views in a way that is respectful, articulate and worthy of consideration, even by those of us who disagree."
Well no wonder we haven't heard any of the usual Repub-droids rebut ECIYA's fine position statement. That's just not possible!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 12:41am PT
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I'm a proud liberal.
A gun-owning, hunting, fishing, served in the military, worked for the military, employed, started working at 15, tax paying, never received public benefits, paid my own way, proud liberal.
I support EQUAL rights, not codified discrimination against gays, women, people of color or any other group. I support separation of church and state and intelligent gun controls like background checks, waiting periods, and mag capacity limits. I don't believe "corporations are people, my friends".
I believe there is, and will always be, a need for welfare and public assistance. I believe there will always be a group of lazy ass people leeching off the public...half desperately poor living in ghettos, the other half plutocrats living in mansions and buying our tax policy via lobbyists and politicians. I believe I'd rather pay taxes to keep the poor 1% in food and housing, than pay a lot more to keep them in prison once they steal and rob to get food or basic needs.
I believe substance abuse and addiction is a public health issue, not a criminal one and that prohibition enables black market gangsters. I believe that most, but not everything benefits from capitalism...there is no f*#king innovation in constructing actuarial tables, and thus a public option for health insurance should the minimum, though single payer would be better.
I believe Jamie Dimon, Hank Paulson, Lloyd Blanfein and their ilk should swing from the gallows or face the guillotine. I believe the cowards George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and Bill Kristol should be next after the bankers...except their arms and legs should go in the guillotine instead of their heads, so they can see what it's like for all the young soldiers permanently maimed in service of their vanity war, after those chickshit as#@&%es avoided service or straight up deserted when they had the chance to fight themselves.
I believe no child should go hungry in this country, regardless of how useless their parents might be. I believe 99% of people want to work, and that Mitt Romney's boys and Paris Hilton can lower thenmselves to drive a Porshe instead of a Bentley when their inheritance is taxed. I believe abortion is between a woman, her doctor, and her own beliefs or conscience, not some outsider and their imaginary sky-man. I believe freely available birth control is the best way to reduce abortions. I believe any theocrat whining about abortion should show me how many kids he's adopted or STFU.
I believe the modern GOP is controlled by their looniest fringe..the Plutocrats, Theorcrats, and BatshitoCrat xenophobes, in a way the left has not been in my lifetime. So yes, I am a proud liberal. Who has been right a hell of a lot more than I've been wrong.
The Tea-oh-P can go f*#k itself.
You may be a proud liberal, but after that rant you may just be a hyporcrite or a liar. I'll delineate why shortly. Really, hanging the GOP? And you've been right about what, more than you've been wrong?
Do you really think you can just say sh#t, like Obama, and people are supposed to buy it?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 12:57am PT
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I'm a proud liberal.
A gun-owning, hunting, fishing, served in the military, worked for the military, employed, started working at 15, tax paying, never received public benefits, paid my own way, proud liberal.
Cool, do you want a merit-badge for that? We all did that, but I never served in the mil, so you got me there!
I support EQUAL rights, not codified discrimination against gays, women, people of color or any other group. I support separation of church and state and intelligent gun controls like background checks, waiting periods, and mag capacity limits. I don't believe "corporations are people, my friends".
Do you support the rights of "people of color" to be canned when they under-perform? How about women? Can religious people deny the right of taxed service to people they disagree with on a religious basis? Does that include Muslims?
I believe there is, and will always be, a need for welfare and public assistance. I believe there will always be a group of lazy ass people leeching off the public...half desperately poor living in ghettos, the other half plutocrats living in mansions and buying our tax policy via lobbyists and politicians. I believe I'd rather pay taxes to keep the poor 1% in food and housing, than pay a lot more to keep them in prison once they steal and rob to get food or basic needs.
Make up your mind! Quit trying to mince words and have it both ways.
I believe substance abuse and addiction is a public health issue, not a criminal one and that prohibition enables black market gangsters. I believe that most, but not everything benefits from capitalism...there is no f*#king innovation in constructing actuarial tables, and thus a public option for health insurance should the minimum, though single payer would be better.
Single-payer bullshit again? Do you really think that is effective? There are better ways to reform the system that have already been proposed, and shot down by intolerant Dems.
I believe Jamie Dimon, Hank Paulson, Lloyd Blanfein and their ilk should swing from the gallows or face the guillotine. I believe the cowards George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and Bill Kristol should be next after the bankers...except their arms and legs should go in the guillotine instead of their heads, so they can see what it's like for all the young soldiers permanently maimed in service of their vanity war, after those chickshit as#@&%es avoided service or straight up deserted when they had the chance to fight themselves.
Boy, that's nice. Did Obummer ever serve? Biden? So let's kill the Repubs.
I believe no child should go hungry in this country, regardless of how useless their parents might be. I believe 99% of people want to work, and that Mitt Romney's boys and Paris Hilton can lower thenmselves to drive a Porshe instead of a Bentley when their inheritance is taxed. I believe abortion is between a woman, her doctor, and her own beliefs or conscience, not some outsider and their imaginary sky-man. I believe freely available birth control is the best way to reduce abortions. I believe any theocrat whining about abortion should show me how many kids he's adopted or STFU.
You should do some research into how many conservatives adopted or have foregone abortions before you spout that kind of bullsh#t.
I believe the modern GOP is controlled by their looniest fringe..the Plutocrats, Theorcrats, and BatshitoCrat xenophobes, in a way the left has not been in my lifetime. So yes, I am a proud liberal. Who has been right a hell of a lot more than I've been wrong.
The Tea-oh-P can go f*#k itself.
Do you support lower taxes and a smaller gov't?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Feb 25, 2014 - 02:34am PT
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"Did Obummer ever serve? Biden? "
Maybe not, but they haven't been the architects of a war that cost thousands & thousands of lives, and uncountable changed lives, either. Do you really think that's a direct comparison?
Nice try, blue...but your 'rebuttal' is weak sauce.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 03:04am PT
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Apogee, tell that to the widows of Benghazi. And this is the same crew that advocates a 'Resposibility 2 Protect' doctrine, ever hear of them?
Arab Spring?
Samantha Power, Susan Rice and the other acolytes think they know best. They don't fire weapons, they just destabilize sovereign gov'ts for their globalist agendas.
Who's worse, the Bush's or them?
Oh, and I wrote this piece up on Saturday;
http://patdollard.com/2014/02/what-have-we-sown/
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Feb 25, 2014 - 03:06am PT
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Who's worse, the Bush's or them?
the Bush's.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 03:14am PT
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It was a largely rhetorical question, Wade...with the answer to that question would demand some reasoning and justification, not just simply picking a side.
But whatever, you're entitled to yer thoughts....
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Feb 25, 2014 - 03:16am PT
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It was a largely rhetorical answer. those are my thoughts. Hope you're well. cheers Blue.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 03:19am PT
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I an well, Wade, rock on!!!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Feb 25, 2014 - 01:37pm PT
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The problem with asking a (supposedly) rhetorical question is that someone just might answer it.
If you accept the FauxNews RepugDroid view that Benghazi was a total f*#k-up on the part of the Obama Administration, a poorly managed incident that resulted in the deaths of a few people has no comparison with a war that was started under false pretenses and resulted in the loss of thousands of lives and mass destruction of an entire country.
You guys gotta be pretty feckin' desperate if that's the only comparison you can find.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 25, 2014 - 01:46pm PT
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School That Threw Away Kids’ Lunches Now Spending $50k On Public Relations Help
Jameson February 24, 2014 Class Warfare Exists
http://iacknowledge.net/school-that-threw-away-kids-lunches-now-spending-50k-on-public-relations-help/
When a Salt Lake City elementary school noticed that a few dozen of its students had past due lunch bills, school officials immediately took action: they marched into the cafeteria, seized the food the kids were eating, and dumped it in the trash. The fallout was immediate and unrelenting. Parents protested, the rest of the world shook their heads in disbelief, and no less than two state senators visited the small school to question the judgment of the people in charge.
“It was pretty traumatic and humiliating,” mother Erica Lukes told the Tribune. Her daughter, 11, was among the kids whose lunches were taken away. “These are young children that shouldn’t be punished or humiliated for something the parents obviously need to clear up.” [source]
The school initially defended its actions by saying that the lunches were thrown away because of rules regarding not serving food twice. They seemed to not think about whether or not the lunches should have been seized in the first place. The outrage stemmed not from the fact that the food was dumped in the trash, but that the school had decided to quite literally take the food out of the mouths of their students to make a point to the parents.
But maybe the school felt that saving the money on school lunches was so important, it was worth it at all cost. That scenario seems hard to sell now that the same school is spending fifty thousand dollars on public relations consultations to help repair their damaged image. That’s enough money to buy 20,000 school lunches for the kids.
So what does spending $50,000 on public relations get you?
The most important lesson is that you shouldn’t take children’s food away, humiliate them in front of their classmates, and toss the uneaten food in the trash. Things that might have been obvious even without the outside help.
According to NPR’s Howard Berkes:
“Under Secretary of Agriculture Kevin Concannon says in a letter to state school chiefs that schoolchildren should not be subjected to undue embarrassment and stigma when they have outstanding balances in their school lunch accounts.
“That’s a response to the incident in Salt Lake City last month when school lunches were taken from children and tossed in the trash due to unpaid bills. Parents at the school complained they weren’t adequately notified.
“Concannon urged school districts to adopt clear procedures for payment and notification of overdue balances.
There is another lesson to be learned here: next time you plan on trying to save a few hundred dollars, make sure what you plan to do won’t end up costing you $50,000 in bad publicity.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
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I'm a proud conservative. I own no firearms, off-road vehicles, or trust fund. I am a son of an immigrant, a tax-paying-without-grumbling, full-benefits-to-employees-paying, hardworking, paid for myself and others proud conservative.
I am a conservative because I have spent much of my life fighting people who think they know more than I, telling me what they think I should do. I think that people in general, and some liberals in particular, think they are smarter than they really are and, for that reason, want to impose their preferences and values on everyone else because they view the preferences and views of others as inferior.
I support EQUAL rights, not codified discrimination against or in favor of gays, women, people of color or any other group, including but not limited to white males, Christians, Muslims and people with whom I disagree.
I support the Constitution as the document defining and limiting our government. If we disagree with its provisions, we need to amend those provisions. I believe that acting in contravention of the Constitution constitutes not only illegal activity, but the most grave threat to the very fabric of our coexistence as a society.
To mention a few specifics, I support the First Amendment's:
 Guaranty both of the disestablishment, and of the free exercise of, religion;
Prohibition against infringement of freedom of speech, regardless of the popularity or identity of the speaker or speakers, or their designation as individuals or groups of individuals or associations, partnerships, corporations, LLP's, LLC's or any other shorthand;
Guaranty of freedom of the press, regardless of the method of dissemination or organization doing the dissemination. The New York Times Corporation has as much right to its press freedom as I do, even though it is a corporation.
For that reason, I believe those saying "corporations are not people" are really simply trying to restrict the expression of those with whom they disagree. For shame!
I support the Second Amendment's reservation to the people, meaning to individuals, of the right to bear arms. If this guaranty applies only to state governments, the guaranty is meaningless. This does not prohibit intelligent regulation respectful of the overall right to bear arms, such as background checks. It does, however, mean that we must resolve doubts about the reasonableness of regulation in favor of freedom.
I believe that capitalism has been the engine promoting the greatest prosperity ever seen in the world, because it is based on voluntary, mutually-beneficial exchange, but capitalism requires government action, including regulation of economic activity. This has some specific implications:
I believe there is, and will always be, a need for welfare and public assistance, and that government must meet most of that need, because otherwise people who can and should help can shirk their duty to do so. But government owes a duty to those it helps to do its best to make them self-sufficient. Too often, policies designed to "help" have, instead, created permanent wards of the state, and benefit only those paid to provide the alleged "help."
Similarly, government has not only the power, but the duty to undertake the production and distribution of public goods, meaning those for which there is a need, but no market demand because there is no ability to exclude.
Despite straw man arguments to the contrary, capitalism cannot exist without a government of just laws and regulation. We expect firms to compete on the basis of price and quality. We do not want competition based on unfair exploitation, deception, collusion or violence.
As a conservative, I believe government must undertake actions to optimize the effects of market transactions producing externalities. This means that laws and regulations speaking of maxima or minima almost certainly do not optimize, and are therefore usually ipso facto unreasonable.
I believe the financial crisis had its roots in well-intentioned government policy to increase home ownership. For several years before the crash, conservatives pointed out the danger, and Congress, led by Mssrs. Dodd and Frank, overrode those concerns. For that reason, I find it particularly ironic that liberals trusted those two to create legislation that they allege will solve the problem.
Furthermore, as a conservative, I believe that if a lender lends to a borrower who cannot repay, the "fault" does not lie solely with the lender or borrower. Blaming the consequences of the burst real estate bubble solely on a few people (even solely on Dodd and Frank) is ridiculous. There is plenty of blame to go around. If we want to enforce a reign of terror on those responsible, most of us would lose our heads.
Conservatives don't back something and then pretend they opposed it if it turns out badly. Both Republicans and Democrats supported the invasion of Iraq. They shared the same intelligence. The cowardice of politicians trying to say "I didn't mean that" disgusts me. It's certainly fair to hold Bush II responsible for poor execution, but to say that only Republicans or conservatives were responsible for the invasion requires selective amnesia.
That said, as a conservative, I consider war the greatest violation possible against human freedom and, for that reason, something we should never undertake unless we are ready, as a whole, to support it wholeheartedly. I supported the conversion to a volunteer army because I thought it would impose the cost of further war making on society as a whole, rather than entirely on draftees. That didn't seem to work, because we didn't pay for future wars on a pay-as-you go basis. Maybe liberals have a better idea there.
Finally, I observe that the Democrats are bought and paid for by those who seek to use government to enrich themselves at the expense or everyone else: government employees, plaintiffs' lawyers, businesses making products the public does not want to buy, and rich preservationists wanting the proletariat to eat cake. They have in common a disdain for ordinary Americans, as shown on ST by the snide comments made about WalMart shoppers and the disrespectful comments about the United States generally. As much as I disagree with the Tea Party, at least they don't show the same contempt for their fellow citizens.
John
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overwatch
climber
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Feb 25, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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Should start putting OT on the climbing threads
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Feb 25, 2014 - 04:46pm PT
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I too have to commend Will for an outstanding elucidation on what it means to be moral, reasonable, and compassionate. So well stated. Outstanding sir. Much respect.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Feb 25, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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Nicely stated, John, and with a similar level of opinion. As you said, you can't rebut such a statement, because to do so is to say that the writer does not believe what they wrote.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Feb 25, 2014 - 05:01pm PT
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JEleazarian ..... well said.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Feb 25, 2014 - 05:09pm PT
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Bluering queried.
Do you support lower taxes and a smaller gov't?
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 05:21pm PT
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John, you are confusing conservatives with Republicans, Liberals with Democrats. Please note the difference between the two supposedly opposite thread titles.
I, and I expect, the vast majority of Americans, agree with >90% of what both you and Elcapinyoazz support.
TE
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Feb 25, 2014 - 05:31pm PT
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And too many people confuse Liberals with Democrats. Not the same thing these days, whatsoever.
Funny thing is that there's sizable overlap between these two positions.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 25, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
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interesting post, JohnE
but I have a problem with it
everything you said makes nice sense, how could anyone disagree with the sweeping and broad principles you laid out that you support?
but what you said does not define you as a modern day "conservative" or Republican
why? because you merely said what damn near everyone else supports..
almost ALL Americans support the 2nd Amendment, including almost all Democrats, or "liberals", so it does not hold water to define conservatism as being different from liberalism regarding the 2nd
for example, if you had said that as a modern Republican you support your congresspeople's votes in the House and Senate to not extend background checks to gun show sales then that would differentiate you from the Democrats vote on that bill
high school kids, five years old, almost all Americans support the "Constitution", big deal,
your support for it is taken for granted, that does not define you as a "conservative" because "liberals" also support, and equally serve and die for, the Constitution
so, I find your definition of your conservatism oddly vague, weak, and really just a repetition more of your "values" that are much the same as anyone else's
in addition, I asked for forum conservative's to state what they "opposed" regarding ElCap's recitation of why he is a liberal, not why they define themselves as conservatives
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