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DavisGunkie
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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at least at UC Davis and probably others, you can get expeled if found guilty of plagerizing.
i would submit it to the student judicial affairs and let them deal with it. that way its on them to show whether she plagerized and if they decide she is guilty it was decided by them not the individual teacher. and then your buddy did the right thing by passing it off to them, whether or not they do the right thing
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 05:03pm PT
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Holy! THANK YOU SO MUCH for your reasoned and well-thought-out responses! No, dammit - there really isn't a Better Way this time, or he would have figured it out!
My friend is really in a pickle, isn't he?
Here are a few more things I should probably have mentioned:
1. It is too late to tape anything. I am not sure precisely how the threats to fire him were levelled, but they have come from more than one source. Nothing was written, that's for sure.
2. It is no bluff. If he does not cave in, he WILL be fired. You can bloody bank on that. The powers-that-be have made this crystal clear. His job is on the line. He'll be thrown out of his office on his ass almost immediately. He is extremely frightened, I should tell you. Madder'n hell, too.
3. I am not sure how difficult it will be to prove the girl's work was plagiarized, but it could be a tough one. I don't believe she copied it from somewhere like the internet, where finding a copy could prove my friend's case. I think somebody wrote it for her. She did admit to my friend the prof. that she did it, and apparently it didn't take too much prodding for her to 'fess up. However she probably knew of daddy's wrath to come, and figured confessing didn't much matter, which is what seems to be the case.
4. It is BECAUSE my friend is truly a Man Of Integrity that he would not stoop to underhanded methods [like secret tape recordings] or blackmail or anything of the sort.
5. I believe he has been in contact with a lawyer about suing for wrongful dismissal, but the case is sketchy at best, because the evidence is he-said she-said. Obviously the girl's dad is going to tell her to deny everything!
6. I don't think he is getting any reasonable help from his fellow associate profs. The faculty appears to be squarely against him.
I don't see a way out of this for him, unfortunately, and hence the dilemma! If there were a reasonable way out, I am sure he would take it, and it wouldn't be a dilemma, would it? So far as I am aware - barring miracle - he has only two choices: capitulate, or stand firm and get fired.
SO HERE IS THE QUESTION:
if it were you, would you stand your ground and almost surely get canned with little hope of finding another job in your field, or would you cave in and let it slide because it is the right thing to do?
If it were me? "That was a lovely paper, honey. I think it deserves an A."
I'd love to be able to say with truth that I would "take the high road" and do what is ethically and morally correct, in spite of the near certainty I would lose my job and jeopardize my family's future. I'd love to be able to say it, but I can't. I'm a chickensh|t, and I admit it. I would probably justify my dilemma by rationalizing that the ends justify the means - even though I did wrong, it is the lesser of two wrongs. At least I wouldn't have to worry about losing my house and feeding my family.
P.S. And those are millions of Merrican dollars, not Hoser ones.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Pete, you stated earlier..."My professor friend has refused. He is, after all, a professor of philosophy, and it's wrong, dammit. The dean has basically told him ["in so many words"] that if he doesn't let it go and let this girl pass dishonestly, they'll fire his ass!"
"basically told him...in so many words, etc..."
Negotiating is tough when it's your own livelyhood at stake. Much easier when it's professional and someone else's money...
Question for your "friend". What exactly will the grounds be for the firing? Misgrading? Bullsh#t. They're bluffing!
Refer it to a higher body at the school for judgement or hold his ground. Only two choices unless he's BSing about the plagerism and/or her confession and it doesn't sound like you think that's possible.
$.02 more,
pc
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nvrws
climber
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I've dealt with such and issue before as well. No easy options, but starving the family for the sake of principle(or is it pal, I never get it right) seems awfully serious.
I disagree with getting the goods on the dean etc. I think that kind of behavior deserves to get ya fired, as in some ways it is dishonest. Talking to the father is another bad idea. Daddys don't like hearing that their little girl is a cheat, especially not from some ivory tower dogooder who knows nothing about how life really works.
I vote for finding some common ground. I say give her 2 weeks to produce her own work. I think the topic is obvious, the enron syndrome/ethics of plagirsm etc. etc. Grade the paper on its merits and grade her appropriately. I think said student perhaps learns a lesson and prof. upholds his standards. btw universities do have a grievance policy for students and faculty and that could be used as well.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 05:22pm PT
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Guys, please don't consider my response as dismissive or patronizing, but there ain't no middle ground here, OK? He can't get the goods on the dean or anyone else, because there is MORE than one person against him. It's not just the dean of his own faculty that has told him, but it came from the top - the chief fundraiser-guy who is in charge of getting all the money for the university. The dean knows what side his bread is buttered on, and he's fully in the camp of the fundraiser-guy.
There really is no opportunity for negotiate, because my friend won't! She cheated, and she deserves a zero, end of story. The message to him is clear and unequivocal - pass this chick, or your ass is grass. No middle ground, no bluff, no sh|t.
I verily fear my friend is going down. Arg. This sucks. It is truly unfair. I want to grab him by the collar and shake him to his senses - even though I know it's wrong. I think he's nuts, but I love him anyway.
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Brian
Trad climber
Cali
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Not to diminish the magnitude of the problem here, but I really don’t think that this fellow’s “future” or “family” are on the line. If he is bright enough to get a Ph.D. in philosophy I am sure he will find another way to put food on the table.
In fact, before I went I went off to get a Ph.D. I did some soul-searching. I was pretty happy with my life, working as a guide, climbing heaps, sleeping under the stars 200 nights a year… I tried to ask myself what I would think if I went back to school for a few years and did not get a tenure-track job teaching at a four year university and decided that I would be OK with that. There are multiple ways to make your way in life. Now, maybe Pete’s pal is more committed to academia than I am, but there is no way I would do something that I was fundamentally opposed (whether it is an unjust grade, keeping my mouth shut about on-the-job harassment or discrimination, etc.) to just to keep the tenure-track university job I have.
But, heck, that’s just me (and, like most of you I’m sure, I’m not holding myself up as some sort of ethical archetype—I’ve got lots of my own issues).
If Pete’s friend believes this is the wrong thing to do, it really doesn’t matter whether you or I think it is wrong (although I know Pete is asking for advice). As Thoreau points out, the only obligation I have is to do at any moment what I think is right.
I wish that Pete’s friend was not in this position, and I wish that people like the Dean and Dad in question were never in positions of power over good people, but that ain’t the case.
I am sure it would/will suck to have to get a different job. But maybe this guy is flexible. How deeply is his identity tied to teaching at a four year university? If he can imagine other good lives (I can imagine a half dozen for myself, which, I gotta tell you, brings about its own problems), I still say he should stick to his guns.
In the end, I think it does matter where you make your stand… and it will matter especially to you when you are sitting with us drinking scotch around the old-climbers campfire…
Brian
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Kartch
climber
Mutahna
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It's crazy how freaked out people are about litigation these days. I'm a risk Manager at a luxury development company. They are way afraid of going to court for unlawful dismissal, why? Average settlement on this type of claim, 40-100 thousand. In Cali you can double, no, triple that amt. If the insurance co gets wind of this they will try to settle ASAP instead of fighting it.
Most people have pretty good success against this type of thing.
My 2 bits, best luck to your friend.
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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I would try to find some solution to maintain my integrity but not worry about the other obviously dishonest people and trying to convince them of the right path to take, that will not work.
Maybe some sort of GWBush signing statment LOL, but I guess that's not really integrity. e.g. Grade it A, but write underneath "I was told by little miss spoiled that this work was not her own, but the quality of the writing deserves an A".
He already compromised his ethics by saying she'd just get a 0 and not report her to get expelled. That was probably a mistake, he should have ran it up the flagpole before he was threatened, as others have stated to get it out of his hands. I sympathize, many of the worst things that have happened to me occured when I went out of the way to help other people and got burned as a result. It hasn't stopped me from helping but I sure as hell cover my ass before I risk it now.
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Upon further reflection, and now that I've gotten my digs on academics and Canadians in, here's my take:
Your professor friend has more on his side than he thinks. Universities (at least good ones) pride themselves on their academic integrity. They supposedly mold the leaders of the future, or some such nonsense. That means that not only is the professor's integrity on the line, but if handled properly, the university's integrity is on the line. Any dean worth his sh*t won't put his university's integrity in question publicly.
It certainly isn't easy, but there is a way. The plagiarism has to be documented, the prof needs to have his ducks in a row from a paperwork standpoint BEFORE he gets canned. If he properly files a charge of cheating, then gets fired, he can fight it, go to the press, the student paper, etc, and put the dean on the front page for moral wrongdoing, etc. He can sue for his job back (some dude called 9/11 victims Nazis and is suing for his job back). Some Dudley Do-Right student journalist will put it all over the school's paper, and the local papers will eat it up and sensationalize it. They love that crap.
The dean knows this. They want to hustle your guy out the door before he gets his paperwork straight, because they also know if they can him for something (whatever that something is) and then he claims that there was some cheating and cries up a storm, it will make it look like he's just incompetent and making up some story to cover his own a$$, and nobody will believe his claims.
With some well-organized paperwork on the front end and some good PR if the shi'ite hits the fan, Professor Morality can have the backing of all of the alumni and all of the students, as all of these people know (or should know) that when students cheat and the school looks the other way (and especially when it becomes public), the value of the degree that those alumni hold is lowered. And although this one donor may contribute millions of (real!) dollars, the thousands of alumni that contribute in smaller amounts, when speaking together, speak more loudly.
And if it doesn't work out, and he doesn't find another professor of philosophy position, we could use a new secretary.
EDIT: I'd also like to add that Daddy knows that the potential pain in the ass that this prof could become if fired is far larger than the pain in the ass caused by his daughter getting an F in a class. Bluffing is useless unless you sell it well.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Is the student good looking? Tell her that if she spends a few nights with you, you will give her an A. That way everyone wins. A Philosophy Professor that does not sleep with his students? Ha.Ha.
Juan
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I would stand my ground and take legal action against the school if fired.
My wife teaches rich kids at a private school. It's true, rich parents sometimes bully and try to buy their kids' grades. And at many schools, they are absolutely successful at it. Her school has a policy though, where the teacher's grade can't be changed without the teacher's consent.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 05:58pm PT
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I'd never last as a university prof, Juan....
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Old_Duffer
Trad climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Wow....so the majority of posters here will rant for hours about somebody employing "special tactics" on a climb but in real life....the majority here won't take a stand on their own integrity ? Shakespeare would have a day with this. The folks I tie in with would always do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Darn pete, I always thought there was a better way...Something for your friend to reflect on. If he is very much a straight shooter he will alays be disappointed working for thugs that put him into that position. But the quality of the evidence is the only thing that could back him up. And for a philosophy class tht sounds a bit tough to have...
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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If he does get canned, let us know who it is or at least what university. There are a ton of academics on here, some of us within spitting distance of the Phil dept, and at minimum I want to know what campus to never set foot on. No need to post it, just shoot us some emails. Philosophy PhD's do face a tough job market, but I know quite a few of them who wouldn't take this soon-to-be-open job for both ethical and pragmatic reasons.
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cjain
Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
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I am glad to hear your friend is already consulting with a lawyer.
Here are some possible options:
1. Write a letter to the Dean describing the situation with all supporting detail regarding the plagarism allegation (and also describing the conversation with the Dean) and confirming that he is passing the student at the Dean's specific request. This is basically shifting the responsiblity for the decision to the Dean.
2. Write a letter as in No. 1 above, but request written instructions from the Dean as to whether or not to pass or not pass.
3. Many schools have established procedures as to how cases of alleged plagarism are handled. Often some committee is tasked with reviewing these. Refer it to the committee and let them decide.
All of these involve your friend "passing the buck" or "washing his hands" of the problem, but he needs to decide what kind of a stand he will take. It is one thing for him to decide that the student will only pass over his dead body--in other words, he is going to do everything he can to stop it from happening, even if it leads to his getting fired. It is another thing for him to just decide that if she is passed, he will not be morally culpable for it. I'd suggest he settle for the second, but only he can decide.
Unfortunately, when a teacher does not have tenure, it is very easy for the school to just not renew his agreement. Or to just deny him tenure when he is up for it. If things have deteriorated as much as you say, it is a real possiblity that even if he now passes the student they will never give him tenure. The rest of the faculty not liking him is not a good sign and that by itself could lead to him not getting tenure. (If this plagarism thing blows over and he stays at the school, he'd really work on making more friends in the faculty--his career likely depends on it.)
I understand that it is very damaging to one's academic career to be dismissed from a tenure-track position. All the time and effort you've invested towards getting tenure at that school is lost and other schools are usually reluctant to hire you. (It's less of a problem if you leave after getting tenure.)
One last thought. In evaluating his ethical obligations with regard to the plagarism incident, he should also weigh his ethical obligations to his family.
Edited to add additional options, which he could speak to his lawyer about:
4. Your friend (accompanied by his lawyer) could go directly to the Board of Trustees on this.
5. Threaten legal action not just against school but also against Rich Dad.
Unfortunately, I think that even if your friend wins the battle (flunking the student without himself getting terminated) he will lose the war (getting tenure).
Many teachers basically bend over and take it until they obtain tenure. Then they are in much better position to take a stand.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Professor
 Holds the grade card
Has shown one integrity card
He may or may not have the plagiarism card
Apparently does not hold the next job card, yet.
Failed to play the expulsion card
Father
Has the no future funding card
Has played the extortion card
Has little to gain since the professor did not play the expulsion card
The money he is threatening to withhold is disposable, of little marginal value to him
But he will withhold it, because he is angry
May or may not be persuaded to do the right thing
Fund raiser
Holds no cards
Has bluffed with the no funds card
Dean
May hold the hire/fire card
Apparently does not hold the grade veto card
The play options
If the father is willing to stand his ground, and the professor does, the daughter's reputation and his are exposed. He loses.
If the father is willing to stand his ground and the professor caves quietly, he wins. But he is asked to raise his contributions.
If the professor calls bluff, and the father caves, professor makes small gain. Probably loses tenure.
If the professor calls and the father is not bluffing, the professor probably loses his job, but not immediately to avoid improper termination suit and bad press. The dean probably loses his job as well.
If the professor caves, he may lose his job anyway since he did not agree to be team player from the outset and his department did not support him. But there is some probability that he will be rewarded. Both of these options are part of a subsequent game with more negotiation.
Finally, there is the option that the professor stalls. After all, the Monday deadline is a negotiating tactic on the part of the administration. He should probably negotiate for more time. He should win that round.
Keep in mind that this is a classical game of imperfect information... None of the participants knows fully the values that each of the others is assigning to each outcome.
And perhaps PTPP has played the troll card. What university is holding classes now?
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Whiskeykid
Big Wall climber
Alberta
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Man, I'd like to say that your friend should take the hollywood route and stand up for his beliefs (...roll credits, "I'd like to thank the academy...") but I'm with you 100% Doc, pass her and keep the job. If there's one thing I learned at post secondary, it's that universities are just a big machine, cranking out degrees. I tried on numerous occasions to stand up against BS like huge class sizes, rising tuition and incompetant professors, but in the end I learned that it's just so much easier to play by the rules and take what you can get out of it. I'm sure that if you're employed by a large university it works the same way, you start out wanting to change the world but before long you get sucked into the machine and shat out the back end. It's all just business, sad but true.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I would have no problem giving the girl a passing grade for millions of dollars for the school. Your friend has to see the bigger picture. Universities are whores. He is not.
The stupid rich students always get a free ride!
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