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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 4, 2006 - 01:57pm PT
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I need your input on this asap please! This story is true. Can you please offer your input right now? We seem to have a great cross-section of thinking people here, and your input is highly valued. Thanks.
I have a friend who is in a huge moral dilemma. His entire career and livelihood are on the line. Most likely he will be required to provide an answer on Monday, so there is a deadline.
My friend is an associate professor of philosophy at a university. He's only been working there for three or four years, I believe, so he does not have tenure. In academic circles, I understand this to mean that he can fired more easily. If you have tenure, you can get away with a lot more.
Recently he called a student into his office. It seems she had produced an essay that was uncharacteristic of her previous work - uncharacteristically good. My professor friend accused her of plagiarizing it.
At first she denied it, but when pressed, she admitted that the work was not her own.
"You realize I have no option but to give you a mark of zero for this," he told her. "It's the sort of thing that could get you tossed out of the university, so don't do it again."
She seemed to accept this, and left.
Well get this, McTopo fans - it turns out that her dad is a huge benefactor to the university! I'm not talking RURPs here, OK - I'm talking big frickin' 4-inch bongs! This student's dad has given the university millions of dollars!
You might be able to guess what happened next. Scary, but true. My professor friend has been approached by the dean - or whoever the hell is in charge of this kind of crap - and been told to "let it slide"! The dad is incensed that his daughter has been given a zero, and has threatened to cut off future funding to the college!
My professor friend has refused. He is, after all, a professor of philosophy, and it's wrong, dammit. The dean has basically told him ["in so many words"] that if he doesn't let it go and let this girl pass dishonestly, they'll fire his ass!
But get this - he's talked it over with his wife, and he is prepared to stand his ground! He is actually prepared to get fired over this!
Now here's the other bit - there ain't exactly a hundred want-ads in the newspaper for professors of philosophy. The chances of him getting a job as a university prof. are dismal at best. In all probability, he will be unable to get a job anywhere as a philosphy professor, no matter what. Standing his ground, and doing what he feels to be right, is pretty much going to cost him his career, and at this point he is prepared to go down for his cause.
When he told me he is unwilling to let it slide, I looked him straight in the eye and said,
"Do you just LOOK stupid, or were you BORN that way?!"
If it were me, I would most likely be prepared to apply "situational ethics" - "Yes, I believe it is wrong ethically to not give her a zero, but in my unique situation, I will let it slide because ...."
This is an extremely tough call. Obviously, my friend is a man of great integrity. I see his point, but I also think he's being stupid.
"Are you nuts?! Just freakin' pass the chick!" is what I told him. "You'll probably end up as just another computer geek struggling to make half the money you used to! You've worked your entire life to achieve the position you have, and you're ready to throw it away just because it's the 'right' thing to do?!"
Arg.
I see his point, I really do, but maybe he should be prepared to bend his rules just this one time.
Or should he?
What would you say to my friend?
What would you do if you were in his situation?
I can't believe that anyone would be man enough, or stupid enough, to lose his job rather than cave in, but I verily fear he is about to do just that.
Responses please, and hurry!
Pete
P.S. Before you write a response, [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=232647&f=0&b=0#msg233072"]please click here for further information I have added.[/url]
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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What philosophy would he be teaching if he acquiesced?
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
the ville, colorado
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Tell your friend to tape the Dean asking him to dismiss the allegations. Guys like him suck the life out of academician. Sue the f*#k out of the school.rg
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Any chance of compromise? Let her write the paper over or something?
BTW, is this in the US or Canada? In the US he could sue for his job back easily, and would win for sure or at least settle under threat of going public. Not sure about Canada.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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He should stand his ground. Tell her she can talk the issue over with the chair of the dept. Let that individual deal with it. They can/will change her grade further up the food-chain regardless of what the prof says.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sounds like a rotten situation, but it sounds like he does have some options...
Does he have any support from the philosophy department?
He could go public and make the school/dean look bad.
I also like that idea to let her rewrite the paper... and then give her a C- no matter what! hahaha (of course that means no tenure down the road!)
And he'd have a winning legal remedy I think... although I don't know all the internal rules of a university. Although I thought 'academic honesty/integrity' was held dear.
Hmm.
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ha-ha
climber
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another vote to out daddy's little girl.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Take your example out of the university setting.
Let him be the number two man at say Enron.
Now the only difference is one of legal versus ethical.
The president of the university could potentially charge the alumnus with a crime? Not sure. Is the president guilty of conspiracy? Not sure. See lawyer fast!
Also see university ombudsman if one exists fast.
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andanother
climber
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trouble is, even if your friend fails the student the dean still has the ability to just override that grade and pass her.
Then your friend gets fired, and doesn't even get to prove his point.
Have your friend "leak" this information to some students and other faculty. Then, have him sit back and watch how the hard working students feel about this. Probably won't take too long for it to work itself out.
If he's gonna get fired, at least have him take some people down with him.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Also, this better not be some WoS related troll meant to show us all what a bunch of moral hypocrites we are.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Another facet of this: a few years down the line when he comes up for tenure review (assuming his present job is tenure track), are the dept head and others going to forget what wusses they were but chastise him for his lack of integrity?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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I like this quote, “There is always a BETTER way!” Who the hell wrote that?
Right now, you may have a he-said she-said situation. When pressed with witnesses, the student will of course lie and say she wrote a great term paper. How can the Prof. prove otherwise? This gets dicey. Unless he has absolute proof that she plagiarized the paper, he may have a hard time showing the proof.
I would suggest that he gather a meeting with the Dean, the father, the student, the head of the philosophy department, and a tenured member of faculty that your friend knows and trusts (or if there is a faculty representative, like union kind of thing?). The meeting starts out with a discussion about WHY the university is even in existence (no the answer is not to give degrees like cracker jack box diplomas) then goes through philosophy. Your Prof friend must follow any procedures that the University has with regards to this. He then lays out the evidence, with no mention of the Deans threats. He tries to be as partial as possible, but he also acknowledges that the student told him that she was cheating. She may lie at this point, hard to say. If she does, then the prof refers to his procedures and says that he is obligated to report such incidents of plagiarism. At this point regardless of what the student may have already said, the professor can say that it is his job to help students (note that this can be done even if she says she is guilty). By writing an additional assignment, he is providing the student with an opportunity to prove herself, and at the same time offering up a chance for her to realize the error of her ways. (We all screw up sometimes, maybe she needs another chance). The prof reiterates that it is his job to try and help young people and sometimes this help is beyond normal teaching boundaries. Can the Univ really fire him then for wanting to help? If I were the father I would later admonish the student and thank the Univ for helping my misguided daughter out. If they do not agree with that then the Prof must have already decided just how far to push and how good his proof his. If they are adamant about not writing an additional assignment, then he has to have decided which course of action to take. The point during the meeting is for him to be supportive of students learning philosophy and that this may be a valuable lesson for all involved.
If your friend does not want to do this, maybe he can just tell her to put out for an A….
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Elcapinyoazz
Mountain climber
Anchorage, Alaska
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Step 1: Prove that the paper is plaigarized. If the student admitted it, get her admission in writing or on tape(do not stealth tape, get her permission.)There are some really good search type software application specfically made to root out plaigarizers. Someone at the University should be able to provide him/her with details of the software applications.
Step 2: Provide the proof to the Dean and stand your ground.
Step 3: If fired, SUE THEIR ASS.
The key is to prove the case either via hard evidence, or an admission of guilt. If he has either, stand firm.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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Have your friend call the father directly and calmly explain the situation and dilema. Ask the father directly if he wants his daughter to slide through by cheating, or do the work to succeed by fair means. Then you get to find out how pops made his millions and what values he is teaching his children. Would any good father, especially a successful business man, want his daughter to cheat her way through life? I doubt it.
Depending on the outcome, he has to decide how hard to fight and whether to stand up or shut up.
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susan peplow
climber
Queen of the Sh^t talkers!
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I'm not saying this is the RIGHT thing to do but....
Play along. If the dean of the University and the father want to handle this girl with kid gloves let it go. Grade the paper on the PAPERS MERITS and don't worry about the true author.
The girl admitted it - the professor knows she plagiarized. Your buddy can go drink a beer in disgust of the situation but nonetheless, he'll still be employed.
Sucks but hey that's life. Not like she's the first student to cheat, maybe only the first one he caught.
-Susan
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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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I teach 6th grade and deal with this every year.
The problem is that some parents refuse to parent, which involves teaching your kid to do the right thing no matter what.
Crazy fookin' parents!
This is why I try to stand my ground with them
so sh*t like this doesn't happen down the road.
My principal says, "What hill do you want to die on?"
Do you want to fail this beeotch and say f'U to her lame ass donating dad?...or do you want to 'let it slide' and continue
living your life as a professor that is dedicated to those students who are truly there to learn from you?
IMHO...wait until your tenured then stand your ground...this is not a battle worth fighting for at this time and place in his career...pass the bitch with A's and let her think her sh#t don't stink.
This little daddy's girl is gonna get what's coming to her some day regardless of some "mean philosophy professor's" grade on her plagiarized paper.
Definitely make her re-write the paper no matter what!
She should obviously be sent to the school's judiciary committee and be found guilty of plagiarism and slapped on the wrist and/or expelled for good.
Option 1:
If he is going to actually fight this battle and possibly die on this hill for this one paper written by this one little rich girl whose daddy has ties, he needs to try and "get in good" with the dean first to ensure victory. Not very plausible.
Option 2:
Get backing from the entire Philosophy Dept. at the university so that if he stands his ground and gets fired the faculty will help expose the dean, daddy, et. al...hmmmm...do we all want to lose our jobs??? yeah right.
Option 3:
Put your coals in the fire! Go lookin' for other jobs ASAP and try to get hired on somewhere else so that once you give the stupid student the heave ho you're outta there and sittin' pretty somewhere else where the grass is a little greener.
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Brian
Trad climber
Cali
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As an assistant professor of philosophy (untenured), I can tell you that the job market is G-R-I-M. Pete is right in his assessment that, if his friend loses this job, he may not find another one. Of course, he might find another job. If your really good, things can happen, and this person already beat the odds by getting the first job. On the philosophy job market you have to be very good and very lucky, and you can't really control the latter.
That being said, I promised myself that, if I got a tenure-track job at a 4-year university, I would simply act as if I already had tenure--call it like I see it. So far I have kept that promise. I have certainly done my share of rocking the boat in the four years I have been working and, while I have never had a dilemma like Pete's friend, I would fail the kid.
I warn kids the first day of class that plagiarism in my class means failing the class, not the assignment, and I have enforced this policy pretty much every semester since I got out of grad school. One "F" won't ruin your life, but it may teach you a good lesson.
This being said, as someone noted above, the Dean can change the grade anyway. So failing the kid may result in being dismissed and, adding insult to injury, seeing the kid pass anyway.
It's a tough call for sure, and I won't gainsay Pete's friend if he caves in; however, I think the kid should fail. If this actually results in Pete's friend being dismissed, I would encourage him to try to get the press involved (on campus and off campus)--nobody likes it when this sort of stuff happens.
Brian
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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He could cave. And make it the final exam question next semester.
Hey, Pete, is that Canadian dollars or American dollars.
Have him marry her. Then after a few years go for alimony.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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While he could probably win a case and get reinstated, he would never attain tenured status at that college and would probably get bad reviews should he aim for employment anywhere else. Sooner or later they will find a reason to terminate his employment even if they have to downsize the department. Bureaucrats can be pretty vindictive and the chance of them letting things slide is about nil. So, if it was me, I would stfu and give her a C and turn my efforts to people who matter.
So, maybe your friend needs to decide what he really wants out of his job and life, to teach and mold as many young adults as he can reach, or to make an ethical stand that likely will cost him his career? After all, teachers all the time need to decide who they can reach and who they can't. There isn't enough time or energy in this world to teach someone something they don't want to learn.
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Jeffo
Trad climber
Virginia
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Hey,
Kudos to your buddy for standing his ground. If he stands strong, and they fire him, he can sue them for retaliation over this issue. At that point he should go to the newspapers and get the media involved. Hopefully, if it gets publicized enough, other universities will seek him out for his impeccable ethics.
Alternatively, he could rally support from fellow professors.
On an even more riskier business is using reverse blackmail. Have him tell the dean, give me tenure immediately and I'll let it slide. I am a fan of Machiavelli!
Good luck in whatever decision you make senor!
Cheers,
J
PS. If you do decide to go public...contact the Chronicle of Higher Education and or the regional accrediting agency that accredits your institution. I am positive that they have mechanisms for grievances against institutions.
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Jeffo
Trad climber
Virginia
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Hey,
Kudos to your buddy for standing his ground. If he stands strong, and they fire him, he can sue them for retaliation over this issue. At that point he should go to the newspapers and get the media involved. Hopefully, if it gets publicized enough, other universities will seek him out for his impeccable ethics.
Alternatively, he could rally support from fellow professors.
On an even more riskier business is using reverse blackmail. Have him tell the dean, give me tenure immediately and I'll let it slide. I am a fan of Machiavelli!
Good luck in whatever decision you make senor!
Cheers,
J
PS. If you do decide to go public...contact the Chronicle of Higher Education and or the regional accrediting agency that accredits your institution. I am positive that they have mechanisms for grievances against institutions.
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Jeffo
Trad climber
Virginia
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Hey,
Kudos to your buddy for standing his ground. If he stands strong, and they fire him, he can sue them for retaliation over this issue. At that point he should go to the newspapers and get the media involved. Hopefully, if it gets publicized enough, other universities will seek him out for his impeccable ethics.
Alternatively, he could rally support from fellow professors.
On an even more riskier business is using reverse blackmail. Have him tell the dean, give me tenure immediately and I'll let it slide. I am a fan of Machiavelli!
Good luck in whatever decision you make senor!
Cheers,
J
PS. If you do decide to go public...contact the Chronicle of Higher Education and or the regional accrediting agency that accredits your institution. I am positive that they have mechanisms for grievances against institutions.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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While he could probably win a case and get reinstated, he would never attain tenured status at that college and would probably get bad reviews should he aim for employment anywhere else. Sooner or later they will find a reason to terminate his employment even if they have to downsize the department. Bureaucrats can be pretty vindictive and the chance of them letting things slide is about nil. So, if it was me, I would stfu and give her a C and turn my efforts to people who matter.
So, maybe your friend needs to decide what he really wants out of his job and life, to teach and mold as many young adults as he can reach, or to make an ethical stand that likely will cost him his career? After all, teachers all the time need to decide who they can reach and who they can't. There isn't enough time or energy in this world to teach someone something they don't want to learn.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Hey, where are the famous ST conspiracy guys?
Surely he is being set up.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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He is dead.
He gets fired if he caves, because he isn't moral enough to teach philosophy.
He gets fired if he stands, because he isn't a team player.
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Brian
Trad climber
Cali
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As others have noted above, having proof is key. If the paper is plagiarized in the traditional sense (copied from somewhere) this is pretty easy with the internet. Even without fancy programs like TurnItIn, a quick, focused Google search will catch the vast majority of cheaters (it may surprise you to find out that most, although definitely not all, of the folks who cheat are not the brightest kids). If the paper was purchased as an original—if princess paid someone else to write it—it may well be impossible to prove…
Brian
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Money talks and bullshit walks.
I'm not sure, but taping the Dean without his consent is probably not legal and the tape would not be admissable in court. Also, not the best way to "manage upward."
Let's see, would flippin' burgers fit your friends ethical direction? Might want to weigh with what's down the road with what's currently on it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Hey Pete,
bummer quandry.
I think that landcruiser had the most cogent point.
How well can this prof back up his assertions?
A tape of the Dean could save his ass considering that the effort to sweep the case under the carpet is a FAR worse transgression than the lame ass twit's plagiarism (and I say that despite an intense hatred of plagiarists. It took me 17 years to forgive Joe Biden.)
But if he hasn't got the ammo (AND the stones to use it) he shouldn't go into battle unless he wants to become a martyr.
The wisest warrior is the one capable of perceiving the widest view and where his efforts will yeild the greatest beneficial effect.
Martyrdom is not always the most effective strategy in practical terms.
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Thom
Trad climber
South Orange County, CA
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Anyone who thinks this world revolves around sound moral and ethincal values forged in stone, is a fool.
We'd all like to believe being grounded in these values will get us ahead in life; well, it will, but only so far. There's a glass ceiling above which the rules must be bent. How far we bend them is more the ethical question, I believe.
What does your friend have to lose by failing this person? Potentially, everything he's worked so hard to achieve, including the livelyhood of his family.
What does he have to gain by failing her?
Nothing. He gets to sit in the unemployment line secure in his belief that he did the right thing and wondering how he'll provide for his family and their future.
What does he have to lose by passing her?
Nothing. He gets to sit at his (one day) tenured desk secure in his belief (and his job) that he did the wrong thing because he had to for the good of his family, and knowing that one day she'll have to face the music herself, along with her father and the Dean. Karma anyone?
What does he have to gain by passing her?
The livelyhood of his family; everything he's worked so hard to achieve and perhaps a little more: he may very well gain a reputation for being a "company man", someone the big shots can count on to "play ball" if necessary. A guy that shows he cares about the school. In the words of Thin Lizzy, "...if that chick don't wanna go, forget her." She'll get hers, and he'll keep his.
Here's a thought: A 14 year old girl is brutally attacked, raped and left for dead. Fortunately, she lives; unfortunately, she's pregnant. What is morally, ethically, the "right thing to do"? Abort the fetus and let her try to get on with her life and put the incident behind her or force her to live the nightmare through another nine months of hell by taking the pregnancy to term, experiencing the pain of childbirth, then putting the baby up for adoption (then living with the guilt of giving up an unwanted child for the rest of her life)?
The "right thing to do" must always be understood in the context of the ramifications of one's actions. I think your friend may be more about stubbornly being right than about what's ethically correct in this situation. He may not like his choices but a choice must be made and he needs to consider who will be affected the most by his actions, and how.
Passing her has immediate consequences only to her (she passes the class); everything else remains status quo.
Failing her has immediate consequences on her, her father, the school, himself, and his family; everyone's pissed off except him.
I say, pass her and let her, her father, and the Dean deal with their own moral issues. Passing her, in this case, is the right thing to do for his family's future, IMO.
Cheers,
T.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Some good advice above...
It's a bluff. Tell him/her to call it because it'll be even better if they decide to fire. Imagine the personal PR he/she'll get by going public with the scandle. Job offers elsewhere WILL be forthcoming.
He/she'll regret it forever if they don't. I imagine 25 years from now they'll be "publically" complaining about their rope...er...job being crapped on back in the day... ;)
pc
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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If he's passionate about teaching he should probably ask himself how he'll ultimately make the most difference as a teacher.
Sitting at home with the knowledge that he may have taught a lesson to the one girl(although that sounds improbable) or retaining his position and concentrating on his many other students over the years to come.
The answer seems clear to me but to each his own.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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BTW here in Utah one may legally tape ANY CONVERSATION THAT ONE IS A PART OF without informing other parties. Just ask Peter Metcalf about that one.
Can't say about your state's laws.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Well the uni wants the money, the dad is acting like an ass, but MAYBE he has only heard his daughter's side?
As in, maybe daddy does not know she cheated her butt off.
OR maybe he does, and he's just mad she got caught, and is using what usually works-- money, or the threatened lack of it.
The University seems out on a limb legally and ethically.
Best thing would be to meet with the dad and try to convince him that letting daughter off is a bad idea, and that throwing his weight around to force things in his daughter's favor when she is in the wrong is a bad idea.
My guess is that your friend is already screwed at this university no matter what he does, but he ought to try to fix this with the parent, and if that fails, go public in as big a way as possible, and forget about teaching since either way, someone with power over his livelihood is going to be pissed at him and be fvcking with him from now on.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Heh, just in case, Orwell wrote that in Animal Farm, not me.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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As an Assistant (tenure-track) Professor, I've had multiple cases in which students hand in work that is not their own. They get zeros. Some students have even been prevented from graduating because of these actions.
If they are unhappy with what I've given them (though it is clearly stated in the syllabus and in the university handbook), I tell them there is a formal process for student grievances. Most universities have these processes. Of course the students don't want to put any effort into the process and the incident goes away. Also, I encourage the student to discuss it with the Chair and/or Dean. Students often don't wish to do this either and the incident dies.
Sure, I've had some angry parents/students email me. One even informed me that my awarding a zero caused a miscarriage and that I'm a murderer and have no heart.
As far as firing the prof - I say that is a bluff. That would require so much work on the administrative side that the liklihood of it happening is very very small.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Some good points here. But I have to combine Jeffo's and Radicals for the right outcome. Knowing now that the prof has slime to deal with as a dean, how can he ever expect to get anywhere the honest way?
So per jeffo (reverse blackmail), your friend prepares a press release identifying the moral dilemma and identifying all the players in great detail. He then meats with the dean and shows him the press release and that he intends to provide this to the press. But he says,
"There is a better way!" (Why does this line keep cropping up? hahaha).
"I will forget all this foolishness for the tenure position to be decided now." Dont let the Dean out of this one, hold his frickin feet to the fire. Your moral friend is screwed and will be fighting constant frustration in his job so long as the administration is not moral. At the end of the discussion, (per radical), your friend says,
"BTW, I hear that Big Tom is bonin the student, I would also like the video for my collection! See it happens will ya? Thanks Dean, knew I could count on ya!"
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Anyone know the statistics associated with firing untenured and/or tenured Ph.D. professors?
I'm busy so I don't have time to look, but I'm sure it's out there - at least for those in public-supported institutions (as is our salary).
Your friend may have a better chance of getting ebola than getting fired.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Those of you advocating the contacting of dad need to consider that there are privacy laws protecting the student. Talking about her to her dad may violate these laws.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Crimpie, I do not think the "odds" are the way to analyze this problem (from a financial perspective). The professor is holds two options, and the dean (parent) may be holding options as well.
Need to jump into two or more person game theory here. See, for example, The Strategy of Conflict, by Schelling. Of course, it is a bit late in the game for reading that... But maybe he is a fast read and can get enough of it to fashion the right strategy.
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Alright, while from an ethical and moral standpoint, and as someone who has always been more proud of the C that I earned than any A I could have stolen, this kind of thing makes me ill. My daddy couldn't buy me A's, and wouldn't if he could. I attended the University of Virginia, which takes things like this so seriously that it has a 'Single Sanction' for lying or cheating: permanent dismissal. There's no 'sorry but you have to take a zero on this assignment', its just 'sorry but you have to take a hike'.
However....
It's philosophy. Seriously, if this kid passes a philosophy course and heads off into the world, what kind of damage can she really do if someone thinks she knows a little more philosophy than she really does? I mean, she's not designing bridges or airplanes or practicing medicine. Nobody is going to die if she mixes up Neitzche and Kierkegaard.
But I digress...
I believe that the value of an institution's integrity is larger than any donor's checkbook. If I found out, as an alumnus, that a dean at my institution had encouraged a professor to look the other way for the sake of money, I'd be outraged, as would many other (donating) alumni.
And finally, is that millions of Canadian dollars Pete? That's, like, $18 US. A's should cost more than $18.
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xtrmecat
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Having raised 3 kids and now they have given 3 grandkids, I believe that my "Honesty is always the way to go." policy is the only thing that has held up to all moral and ethical questions we have ever encountered. I try never to give advice but this I never will balk from. A zero on the paper is the only right thing to do that no matter what cannot come back and haunt you, in your sleep or daily living.
Flunking out may be what she needs to understand that money is not where it is at.
Bob
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DavisGunkie
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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at least at UC Davis and probably others, you can get expeled if found guilty of plagerizing.
i would submit it to the student judicial affairs and let them deal with it. that way its on them to show whether she plagerized and if they decide she is guilty it was decided by them not the individual teacher. and then your buddy did the right thing by passing it off to them, whether or not they do the right thing
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 05:03pm PT
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Holy! THANK YOU SO MUCH for your reasoned and well-thought-out responses! No, dammit - there really isn't a Better Way this time, or he would have figured it out!
My friend is really in a pickle, isn't he?
Here are a few more things I should probably have mentioned:
1. It is too late to tape anything. I am not sure precisely how the threats to fire him were levelled, but they have come from more than one source. Nothing was written, that's for sure.
2. It is no bluff. If he does not cave in, he WILL be fired. You can bloody bank on that. The powers-that-be have made this crystal clear. His job is on the line. He'll be thrown out of his office on his ass almost immediately. He is extremely frightened, I should tell you. Madder'n hell, too.
3. I am not sure how difficult it will be to prove the girl's work was plagiarized, but it could be a tough one. I don't believe she copied it from somewhere like the internet, where finding a copy could prove my friend's case. I think somebody wrote it for her. She did admit to my friend the prof. that she did it, and apparently it didn't take too much prodding for her to 'fess up. However she probably knew of daddy's wrath to come, and figured confessing didn't much matter, which is what seems to be the case.
4. It is BECAUSE my friend is truly a Man Of Integrity that he would not stoop to underhanded methods [like secret tape recordings] or blackmail or anything of the sort.
5. I believe he has been in contact with a lawyer about suing for wrongful dismissal, but the case is sketchy at best, because the evidence is he-said she-said. Obviously the girl's dad is going to tell her to deny everything!
6. I don't think he is getting any reasonable help from his fellow associate profs. The faculty appears to be squarely against him.
I don't see a way out of this for him, unfortunately, and hence the dilemma! If there were a reasonable way out, I am sure he would take it, and it wouldn't be a dilemma, would it? So far as I am aware - barring miracle - he has only two choices: capitulate, or stand firm and get fired.
SO HERE IS THE QUESTION:
if it were you, would you stand your ground and almost surely get canned with little hope of finding another job in your field, or would you cave in and let it slide because it is the right thing to do?
If it were me? "That was a lovely paper, honey. I think it deserves an A."
I'd love to be able to say with truth that I would "take the high road" and do what is ethically and morally correct, in spite of the near certainty I would lose my job and jeopardize my family's future. I'd love to be able to say it, but I can't. I'm a chickensh|t, and I admit it. I would probably justify my dilemma by rationalizing that the ends justify the means - even though I did wrong, it is the lesser of two wrongs. At least I wouldn't have to worry about losing my house and feeding my family.
P.S. And those are millions of Merrican dollars, not Hoser ones.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Pete, you stated earlier..."My professor friend has refused. He is, after all, a professor of philosophy, and it's wrong, dammit. The dean has basically told him ["in so many words"] that if he doesn't let it go and let this girl pass dishonestly, they'll fire his ass!"
"basically told him...in so many words, etc..."
Negotiating is tough when it's your own livelyhood at stake. Much easier when it's professional and someone else's money...
Question for your "friend". What exactly will the grounds be for the firing? Misgrading? Bullsh#t. They're bluffing!
Refer it to a higher body at the school for judgement or hold his ground. Only two choices unless he's BSing about the plagerism and/or her confession and it doesn't sound like you think that's possible.
$.02 more,
pc
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nvrws
climber
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I've dealt with such and issue before as well. No easy options, but starving the family for the sake of principle(or is it pal, I never get it right) seems awfully serious.
I disagree with getting the goods on the dean etc. I think that kind of behavior deserves to get ya fired, as in some ways it is dishonest. Talking to the father is another bad idea. Daddys don't like hearing that their little girl is a cheat, especially not from some ivory tower dogooder who knows nothing about how life really works.
I vote for finding some common ground. I say give her 2 weeks to produce her own work. I think the topic is obvious, the enron syndrome/ethics of plagirsm etc. etc. Grade the paper on its merits and grade her appropriately. I think said student perhaps learns a lesson and prof. upholds his standards. btw universities do have a grievance policy for students and faculty and that could be used as well.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 05:22pm PT
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Guys, please don't consider my response as dismissive or patronizing, but there ain't no middle ground here, OK? He can't get the goods on the dean or anyone else, because there is MORE than one person against him. It's not just the dean of his own faculty that has told him, but it came from the top - the chief fundraiser-guy who is in charge of getting all the money for the university. The dean knows what side his bread is buttered on, and he's fully in the camp of the fundraiser-guy.
There really is no opportunity for negotiate, because my friend won't! She cheated, and she deserves a zero, end of story. The message to him is clear and unequivocal - pass this chick, or your ass is grass. No middle ground, no bluff, no sh|t.
I verily fear my friend is going down. Arg. This sucks. It is truly unfair. I want to grab him by the collar and shake him to his senses - even though I know it's wrong. I think he's nuts, but I love him anyway.
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Brian
Trad climber
Cali
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Not to diminish the magnitude of the problem here, but I really don’t think that this fellow’s “future” or “family” are on the line. If he is bright enough to get a Ph.D. in philosophy I am sure he will find another way to put food on the table.
In fact, before I went I went off to get a Ph.D. I did some soul-searching. I was pretty happy with my life, working as a guide, climbing heaps, sleeping under the stars 200 nights a year… I tried to ask myself what I would think if I went back to school for a few years and did not get a tenure-track job teaching at a four year university and decided that I would be OK with that. There are multiple ways to make your way in life. Now, maybe Pete’s pal is more committed to academia than I am, but there is no way I would do something that I was fundamentally opposed (whether it is an unjust grade, keeping my mouth shut about on-the-job harassment or discrimination, etc.) to just to keep the tenure-track university job I have.
But, heck, that’s just me (and, like most of you I’m sure, I’m not holding myself up as some sort of ethical archetype—I’ve got lots of my own issues).
If Pete’s friend believes this is the wrong thing to do, it really doesn’t matter whether you or I think it is wrong (although I know Pete is asking for advice). As Thoreau points out, the only obligation I have is to do at any moment what I think is right.
I wish that Pete’s friend was not in this position, and I wish that people like the Dean and Dad in question were never in positions of power over good people, but that ain’t the case.
I am sure it would/will suck to have to get a different job. But maybe this guy is flexible. How deeply is his identity tied to teaching at a four year university? If he can imagine other good lives (I can imagine a half dozen for myself, which, I gotta tell you, brings about its own problems), I still say he should stick to his guns.
In the end, I think it does matter where you make your stand… and it will matter especially to you when you are sitting with us drinking scotch around the old-climbers campfire…
Brian
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Kartch
climber
Mutahna
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It's crazy how freaked out people are about litigation these days. I'm a risk Manager at a luxury development company. They are way afraid of going to court for unlawful dismissal, why? Average settlement on this type of claim, 40-100 thousand. In Cali you can double, no, triple that amt. If the insurance co gets wind of this they will try to settle ASAP instead of fighting it.
Most people have pretty good success against this type of thing.
My 2 bits, best luck to your friend.
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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I would try to find some solution to maintain my integrity but not worry about the other obviously dishonest people and trying to convince them of the right path to take, that will not work.
Maybe some sort of GWBush signing statment LOL, but I guess that's not really integrity. e.g. Grade it A, but write underneath "I was told by little miss spoiled that this work was not her own, but the quality of the writing deserves an A".
He already compromised his ethics by saying she'd just get a 0 and not report her to get expelled. That was probably a mistake, he should have ran it up the flagpole before he was threatened, as others have stated to get it out of his hands. I sympathize, many of the worst things that have happened to me occured when I went out of the way to help other people and got burned as a result. It hasn't stopped me from helping but I sure as hell cover my ass before I risk it now.
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Burns
Trad climber
Arlington, VA
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Upon further reflection, and now that I've gotten my digs on academics and Canadians in, here's my take:
Your professor friend has more on his side than he thinks. Universities (at least good ones) pride themselves on their academic integrity. They supposedly mold the leaders of the future, or some such nonsense. That means that not only is the professor's integrity on the line, but if handled properly, the university's integrity is on the line. Any dean worth his sh*t won't put his university's integrity in question publicly.
It certainly isn't easy, but there is a way. The plagiarism has to be documented, the prof needs to have his ducks in a row from a paperwork standpoint BEFORE he gets canned. If he properly files a charge of cheating, then gets fired, he can fight it, go to the press, the student paper, etc, and put the dean on the front page for moral wrongdoing, etc. He can sue for his job back (some dude called 9/11 victims Nazis and is suing for his job back). Some Dudley Do-Right student journalist will put it all over the school's paper, and the local papers will eat it up and sensationalize it. They love that crap.
The dean knows this. They want to hustle your guy out the door before he gets his paperwork straight, because they also know if they can him for something (whatever that something is) and then he claims that there was some cheating and cries up a storm, it will make it look like he's just incompetent and making up some story to cover his own a$$, and nobody will believe his claims.
With some well-organized paperwork on the front end and some good PR if the shi'ite hits the fan, Professor Morality can have the backing of all of the alumni and all of the students, as all of these people know (or should know) that when students cheat and the school looks the other way (and especially when it becomes public), the value of the degree that those alumni hold is lowered. And although this one donor may contribute millions of (real!) dollars, the thousands of alumni that contribute in smaller amounts, when speaking together, speak more loudly.
And if it doesn't work out, and he doesn't find another professor of philosophy position, we could use a new secretary.
EDIT: I'd also like to add that Daddy knows that the potential pain in the ass that this prof could become if fired is far larger than the pain in the ass caused by his daughter getting an F in a class. Bluffing is useless unless you sell it well.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Is the student good looking? Tell her that if she spends a few nights with you, you will give her an A. That way everyone wins. A Philosophy Professor that does not sleep with his students? Ha.Ha.
Juan
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I would stand my ground and take legal action against the school if fired.
My wife teaches rich kids at a private school. It's true, rich parents sometimes bully and try to buy their kids' grades. And at many schools, they are absolutely successful at it. Her school has a policy though, where the teacher's grade can't be changed without the teacher's consent.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 05:58pm PT
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I'd never last as a university prof, Juan....
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Old_Duffer
Trad climber
Lake Arrowhead
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Wow....so the majority of posters here will rant for hours about somebody employing "special tactics" on a climb but in real life....the majority here won't take a stand on their own integrity ? Shakespeare would have a day with this. The folks I tie in with would always do the right thing and let the chips fall where they may.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Darn pete, I always thought there was a better way...Something for your friend to reflect on. If he is very much a straight shooter he will alays be disappointed working for thugs that put him into that position. But the quality of the evidence is the only thing that could back him up. And for a philosophy class tht sounds a bit tough to have...
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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If he does get canned, let us know who it is or at least what university. There are a ton of academics on here, some of us within spitting distance of the Phil dept, and at minimum I want to know what campus to never set foot on. No need to post it, just shoot us some emails. Philosophy PhD's do face a tough job market, but I know quite a few of them who wouldn't take this soon-to-be-open job for both ethical and pragmatic reasons.
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cjain
Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
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I am glad to hear your friend is already consulting with a lawyer.
Here are some possible options:
1. Write a letter to the Dean describing the situation with all supporting detail regarding the plagarism allegation (and also describing the conversation with the Dean) and confirming that he is passing the student at the Dean's specific request. This is basically shifting the responsiblity for the decision to the Dean.
2. Write a letter as in No. 1 above, but request written instructions from the Dean as to whether or not to pass or not pass.
3. Many schools have established procedures as to how cases of alleged plagarism are handled. Often some committee is tasked with reviewing these. Refer it to the committee and let them decide.
All of these involve your friend "passing the buck" or "washing his hands" of the problem, but he needs to decide what kind of a stand he will take. It is one thing for him to decide that the student will only pass over his dead body--in other words, he is going to do everything he can to stop it from happening, even if it leads to his getting fired. It is another thing for him to just decide that if she is passed, he will not be morally culpable for it. I'd suggest he settle for the second, but only he can decide.
Unfortunately, when a teacher does not have tenure, it is very easy for the school to just not renew his agreement. Or to just deny him tenure when he is up for it. If things have deteriorated as much as you say, it is a real possiblity that even if he now passes the student they will never give him tenure. The rest of the faculty not liking him is not a good sign and that by itself could lead to him not getting tenure. (If this plagarism thing blows over and he stays at the school, he'd really work on making more friends in the faculty--his career likely depends on it.)
I understand that it is very damaging to one's academic career to be dismissed from a tenure-track position. All the time and effort you've invested towards getting tenure at that school is lost and other schools are usually reluctant to hire you. (It's less of a problem if you leave after getting tenure.)
One last thought. In evaluating his ethical obligations with regard to the plagarism incident, he should also weigh his ethical obligations to his family.
Edited to add additional options, which he could speak to his lawyer about:
4. Your friend (accompanied by his lawyer) could go directly to the Board of Trustees on this.
5. Threaten legal action not just against school but also against Rich Dad.
Unfortunately, I think that even if your friend wins the battle (flunking the student without himself getting terminated) he will lose the war (getting tenure).
Many teachers basically bend over and take it until they obtain tenure. Then they are in much better position to take a stand.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Professor
 Holds the grade card
Has shown one integrity card
He may or may not have the plagiarism card
Apparently does not hold the next job card, yet.
Failed to play the expulsion card
Father
Has the no future funding card
Has played the extortion card
Has little to gain since the professor did not play the expulsion card
The money he is threatening to withhold is disposable, of little marginal value to him
But he will withhold it, because he is angry
May or may not be persuaded to do the right thing
Fund raiser
Holds no cards
Has bluffed with the no funds card
Dean
May hold the hire/fire card
Apparently does not hold the grade veto card
The play options
If the father is willing to stand his ground, and the professor does, the daughter's reputation and his are exposed. He loses.
If the father is willing to stand his ground and the professor caves quietly, he wins. But he is asked to raise his contributions.
If the professor calls bluff, and the father caves, professor makes small gain. Probably loses tenure.
If the professor calls and the father is not bluffing, the professor probably loses his job, but not immediately to avoid improper termination suit and bad press. The dean probably loses his job as well.
If the professor caves, he may lose his job anyway since he did not agree to be team player from the outset and his department did not support him. But there is some probability that he will be rewarded. Both of these options are part of a subsequent game with more negotiation.
Finally, there is the option that the professor stalls. After all, the Monday deadline is a negotiating tactic on the part of the administration. He should probably negotiate for more time. He should win that round.
Keep in mind that this is a classical game of imperfect information... None of the participants knows fully the values that each of the others is assigning to each outcome.
And perhaps PTPP has played the troll card. What university is holding classes now?
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Whiskeykid
Big Wall climber
Alberta
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Man, I'd like to say that your friend should take the hollywood route and stand up for his beliefs (...roll credits, "I'd like to thank the academy...") but I'm with you 100% Doc, pass her and keep the job. If there's one thing I learned at post secondary, it's that universities are just a big machine, cranking out degrees. I tried on numerous occasions to stand up against BS like huge class sizes, rising tuition and incompetant professors, but in the end I learned that it's just so much easier to play by the rules and take what you can get out of it. I'm sure that if you're employed by a large university it works the same way, you start out wanting to change the world but before long you get sucked into the machine and shat out the back end. It's all just business, sad but true.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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I would have no problem giving the girl a passing grade for millions of dollars for the school. Your friend has to see the bigger picture. Universities are whores. He is not.
The stupid rich students always get a free ride!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"But if he hasn't got the ammo (AND the stones to use it) he shouldn't go into battle unless he wants to become a martyr.
The wisest warrior is the one capable of perceiving the widest view and where his efforts will yeild the greatest beneficial effect."
I once talked about this situation with a prominent biology professor who initiated a study into the systematic discrimination against female faculty at MIT. The Boston Globe and then the NY Times ended up running the story on the front page, so in addition to the changes that she effected at MIT, many other schools copied her study and made changes to their own policies.
I've been involved in various aspects of feminist activism since I started college and had no female professors in my major. When I asked this professor when she thought the best things I could do to help bring about positive change (i.e. more women in positions of power in the sciences), she basically told me to keep my mouth shut (at least most of the time) and do good research, accepting a certain amount of harassment and discrimination, until I had some real power to weild.
Idealists who martyr themselves when no one is really paying attention just die a lonely, useless death. It's a statement that no one really hears.
In the case at hand, if he hangs, the girl suspected of plagerism gets a stronger message, IMO, that she should use her Dad's money to buy influence, than she would if he passed her with a shitty grade. If anyone looks at her transcript ever, they'll see the bad grade, and she won't have the satisfaction knowing that she was 'powerful' enough to effectively fire a teacher who dared cross her and her daddy's money.
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Ouch!
climber
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Based on my experience in these things, the guy's career has already taken a big hit. Even if things die down, he has a target on his back. Next month or next year, the big donor will have his way.
There's a game to be played here and the one with integrity has little chance to beat the one with the money.
If he goes public and stirs up a stink, he will become a pariah.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Pete (and others),
why is it "underhanded" to record a conversation legally?
That would suggest that people should only have to be honest if you tell them you are recording, otherwise they don't need to be held to their words.
That is ludicrous!
Honest people of integrity don't fear their own words.
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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Wheigh in with my two cents...
Unfortunatly only and undergraduate in philosophy, thus lack of ethos (a fallacy anywho).
Your Friend is prepared to stand his (ethical) ground. This is applaudable.
The problem with caving is that it devalues the classes and degrees that students where credited for honestly, thus cheating everyone who has ever recieved a degree from that school.
This situation, however, is not outside of debate among the acedemic philosophic conversation. Neitzsche would say "of course pass the girl." So would defenders of the new American Aristocracy.
Pete, the only solution to this porblem is the one your friend feels appropriate. However, if chooses to take the hit, he's welcome in my house anytime. Of course that involves living in provo, the worst place in the universe for intellegent debate (appollogies to Profs. at UVSC and BYU, both of which are anxiously engaged in the enlightened persuit of truth). I will also support what i think is right, and put my (lack of) money where my mouth is.
I believe that the world should be as it should be, and it should be that way right now. We have no excuse for anything else.
I'm also willing to be a part of the Supertopo Mass Exodus to the campus demanding the reinstatment of a Professor who practices what he preaches. Nothings is so much fun as a good rally, especially if that rally is within a short distance of good climbing (which is why, i believe, Chicago rallies and demonstrations always turn violent). Plus people are genneraly afraid of climbing paraphenalia.
Anywho, please keep me updated as the situation develops.
Adam
P.S. good rally slogan: The liars should be fired!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 07:42pm PT
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I can't believe I am agreeing with Dr. Melissa, however I am gratified to see that she can't even spell "plagiarize".
Look, I sincerely appreciate your problem-solving efforts, and your "thinking outside the box" and all, but I repeat - there is no middle ground.
So answer the damn question:
Put yourself in buddy's place, consider all that is riding on this - this is not Big Wall Theory, this is Big Wall Fact! This dude's WHOLE EN-TAR LIFE is riding on this decision! If he does what he feels to be right, he will suffer most likely permanent loss of his career, and huge financial suffering. Winning a wrongful dismissal lawsuit is unlikely. It will hurt, it will hurt big time, and it will hurt his family.
He has only two choices - stand firm and get fired, or cave in and keep his job.
Look, it's all Big Wall Theory when the shoe is on the other foot. It is all fine and dandy to say, "oh yeah, if I were in his place, of course I would do the right thing and lose my job...."
The hell you would.
It's easy to be an idealist on an internet forum. You can write what you want and look like a hero. I'm talking about a real life dilemma here, that is a life-changing event.
I think a lot of you are full of sh|t. Much though I would *like* to say I'd do the right thing, if it were me, I'd just pass the girl and be done with it.
Cowardly but true.
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bones
Trad climber
San Diego
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If he's going to sacrifice his ethics, he might as well go balls to the wall and "ask" for a substantial raise and maybe tenure. Clearly, the dean will see no ethical dilemma in that. If they refuse, take the whole lot of 'em down with you.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Christ sakes Pete. Have you not listened to a thing we've suggested? Are you simply trying to get "one" person to agree with your narrow take on the situation? It's never as straight forward as you make it sound. There are alway's subtle alternatives...For example, If he holds his ground...
1. Write the letter/s documenting the situation and asking for help/passing some of the buck.
2. Call the Globe and Mail and ask them how news worthy a story like this would be.
3. Get some allies aware of the situation and get documentation to them.
4. If the guy's got enough backbone to stand up to this situation he should have enough backbone to take a job outside the "hallowed halls" until something else comes along. Probably make better money for that while too.
5. This can be a coup for his career if they actually go through with it. Folks' love David vs Golliath stories...
As other folks' have indicated...If he caves and goes with "the man" he'll be screwed anyway. He'll hate himself and won't get tenure.
pc
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malabarista
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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One thing I know from my wife's experience with rich parents trying to buy grades is, you have got to have all the paperwork in order. The burden of proof is on the professor, whether that is fair or not. He needs to have bullet proof evidence. My wife's record keeping is completely thorough. Every email, every exchange, every grade is recorded with students so that no one can bully there way into a grade change. She's had to pull out all this stuff too a few times to defend against unreasonable charges. Kids and their parents will lie, cheat, make up conversations that never happened -whatever they can think of to discredit teachers that get in their way.
It's kind of funny, this is the crap teachers go thru at a rich kids school, but there is other crap that is probably worse at other schools. Some rich people think everything is for sale, and have no qualms about trying to buy their kids grades. It's usually some situation as Pete has described -some rich a-hole who has contributed a bunch of money to the school thinks his kid is exempt from having to do good work to get the grades.
[Edit] I want to emphasize that this behavior isn't anywhere near the norm, but it does happen quite a lot.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2006 - 08:10pm PT
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Sorry, Pete - you're right. It's very frustrating. Arg.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Pete, you have missed the point. It is not cut and dried. It is a classical game of strategy. Somebody will act first. In some games it is best to act first. In others it is best to act second. You have not said how big the University is. A few millions to small potatos school is real dough. To a Harvard, they would tell the girl to take a hike, quickly. Then there is the in between.
Saying that it is cut and dried is a strategic move. Accepting it or not are two strategic alternatives. If this guy has a lawyer worth a crap, it is only just beginning. But as Ouch! and others have already mentioned, the prof may have already lost the game.
You do not even know how many moves until the end of this game.
And I am still calling troll! It is the beginning of August. Try again in early December. :-)
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cjain
Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
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Pete,
Is your friend a staunch stoic? If so, the matter has already been decided and we are wasting our time.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Your buddy has taken the high road, good for him.
But, if he's got dependents riding on this, not a one of us is qualified to dictate 'the shoulds'.
What would "I" do? Dunno, I've burned a lot of these bridges and I'm happy to be a 50yr old special ed sub, as consequence. But it might not be for everyone. My ex(she's an MD)'s healthplan that covers my daughter, also helps me sleep at night; HisMMV!!!!!!
If he stands and gets fired, I have strong reccomendations on lawyers to deal with the institution, those monkeys swing in my own family tree. Don't know if he has a case, though.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Ultimately, he will have to answer for his decision to the big man upstairs.
In the short term, if he is fired, he would have ample grounds for a lawsuit. The university may give him a lifetime of wages to shut him up. They could lose acreditation over such an event.
This isn't a crisis, it is a lotto quality opportunity.
He can do the right thing, be the good guy, and get a sack of cash.
And it's a great subject for a novel he could write on a beach somewhere.
I smell win, win, win.
Damn, wish I had a dilema like that!
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Scrunch
Trad climber
Provo, Ut
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Just a clarification:
At one point in time I was working as an EMT-B for a private ambulance provider. I was asked to do some things I found immoral (though not illeagal) and I promptly resigned. This lead me to a few months of "oon the streets" homlessness, from which I was rescued by my family.
From this I've learned to be fearless. I was comfortable with my homeless situation, and was not worried about going there again. I've held a number of jobs, and haven't worried about the ramifications if I was to quit. Sometimes I quit over disputes. Sometimes I was fired. A few times I even parted on good terms with my employers
Then I got married. Now I have no idea what I'd do. I'm still in the job I had when I got married, and see no reason to leave, but i know that someday I'll be faced with that kind of descion, thogh probably not on the same level.
However, I will do what I can to support those who do what they feel is right.
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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"Look, I sincerely appreciate your problem-solving efforts, and your "thinking outside the box" and all, but I repeat - there is no middle ground.
So answer the damn question:
Put yourself in buddy's place"
Smells like a troll.
The guy already compromised his ethics by offering her a 0 and no further action. He already caved.
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passthepenispeter
Gym climber
Dallas
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Principles only mean something when you stick to them when its inconvenient.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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WHoa, after reading Pete's obnoxious post above, I just skipped down to make a retort.
Fvck you Pete.
You are supposed to be rich, hire this philosophy pal so he can do the right thing, LOL!
So we are FOS are we?
YOU never had to do one damned thing according to a mutual friend, you were born with a silver piton in your mouth, so how DARE you tell anyone else who actually does have to work they are FOS on this matter?
And I agree with the other people who say your friend is screwed no matter what. He's made enemies by even trying to do the right thing. Time to look in a new direction.
This thread shows that the rich, including you Pete, really are different. They SUCK much more than the average joe.
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CorporateDog
climber
Middle California
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Pete,
I'm curious - did your friend know that his student's father was a major donor to his university beforehand? If not, why not? I ask because at this level on the social ladder of prestige the games that are played are played for keeps. You need to know the territory - that includes people.
This particular game began the second your friend suspected the student had plagiarized the work.
From your description of your friend - I will make the presumption that he did NOT recognize that the match had begun.
Had he recognized this at the outset, any number of moves was available to him that would have dramatically shifted the power play into his court.
He did not, and is now being outmaneuvered by the other players.
He has a very poor chance of winning this game.
Especially so if he has chosen to continue to play by the ethical rules and the rest of the board has chosen otherwise.
How well can he bluff?
If he can - then he may have no remaining choice other than consider the tactical frontal assault as his only option.
Baffle them with bullshite and outbluff them.
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Whiskeykid
Big Wall climber
Alberta
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PTPP Wrote:
"It's easy to be an idealist on an internet forum. You can write what you want and look like a hero. I'm talking about a real life dilemma here, that is a life-changing event.
I think a lot of you are full of sh|t. Much though I would *like* to say I'd do the right thing, if it were me, I'd just pass the girl and be done with it."
Amen to that brother.
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chalkfree
Trad climber
Claremont, CA
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PTPP,
Save his job, let it go, girl's actions shouldn't dictate future of prof's career.
Your prof clearly has integrity. He will not lose this if he passes daddy's rich girl. She'll get hers eventually. As other profs have pointed out, it's very hard to confirm the plagiarism, and it appears it's too late to even try that path.
This is NOT a battle worth fighting! Why lose a job over a student's actions? Move on. Let it go, and maybe be more ready next time about how to handle such cases. Forget about having the girl redo the paper--just drop it like a hot potato, and save your job!
I work at a university also, and politics can be very thick. Most folks who dig their heals in, just get buried! Call it a learning experience!
Take your prof friend climbing, and everything will get better!
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Brian
Trad climber
Cali
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I’ve commented at length above as to what I would do (even if Pete doesn’t believe me!).
However, in response to some of the posts following mine:
(1) The kid should fail the assignment, if not the class (which is what I do for plagiarized papers). This is not “nailing her to the cross.” In the current environment of rampant grade inflation, people seem to think anything less than an A- is an accusation of severe mental deficiency. Two of the guys I roomed with as an undergrad failed classes at UCLA. One has gone on to become a successful DA and a high-ranking officer in the JAG corps; the other became an instructing physician at the Mayo Clinic. I bombed some classes myself and now I have a Ph.D. and a tenure-track job. Failing a class is not “too harsh.” Princess can recover from this and it will teach her a good lesson.
(2) I don’t talk to students’ parents about their plagiarism or their grades, and in every situation where a parent has tried to get involved in any substantial way (e.g., wanting to find out how he/she can fix things) I have made it clear that it is time to let little Johnny or Jane accept responsibility for his or her actions. Undergrads want to play grown-up (drinking, shacking up, etc.) until it is time to accept responsibility for one’s actions. Of course, this is because we live in a society where even grown-ups do not accept personal responsibility for their actions, which is why we have so many slip and fall cases, etc. Princess probably does not have a good role model in her father in this regard. If we want to change this we have to treat students differently. They will accept responsibility for their actions when we hold them responsible for their actions and, let me repeat, failing the class is not too harsh and will not end this kid’s life (see #1 above).
(3) While I agree that losing one’s tenure-track position would be hard (perhaps very hard for some), it is not the financial end of the world. All the talk of this fellow’s moral obligations to provide for his family seriously overestimate what professors are paid. I am paid above the national average for my level and my brother, who never finished college, makes heaps more than me as a police officer. Again, I don’t want to understate the significance of losing a tenure-track job; but, as I noted above, there are many ways to live a successful and fulfilled life.
(4) I completely agree that ethics is made up of shades of grey, and that all decisions are contextual. This is part of what makes ethics interesting and compelling. However, the posters above who make these arguments in favor of an “anything goes” approach are full of BS. As I point out to all of my students who are tempted by nihilism and/or relativism, no one is really a nihilist or relativist when put to the pins. As soon as such a person becomes a victim (of assault or rape or any other violation) he/she calls out about the injustice/unfairness/evil of it all. No one is victimized by a violent crime and shouts out, “Stop, your interpretation of this situation is not congenial to mine!” or “Your perspective and mine conflict!” The fact that not all things are black and white does not mean things are equally grey, or that we cannot tell right from wrong. A nuanced, hermeneutic approach to truth is wise; full-blown relativism is foolish and, in every case I have ever come across, ridiculous posturing.
(5) Someone above noted that principles are only meaningful if you stick to them when it is hard to do so. Effing-A. It is only in the “lonely emergencies of life” (James) that we find out what we are made of.
I hope this is a troll (LOL) but unfortunately don’t think Pete is fabricating this.
Good luck to your friend Pete, whatever he decides. Ultimately, this is a personal choice—passing or failing the kid won’t change the world and, as I noted, I am sure this fellow will find a way to feed his family. I wish him luck with a shitty situation…
Brian
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Brian
Trad climber
Cali
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Oh yeah, one more thing. Pete is right that none of us know for certain what we would do in this situation. Although we all hope we would do the right thing, even if we disagree as to what the right thing is, we never know until we are confronted with the choice in question. Again, it is only in the lonely emergencies of life that we find out what we are truly made of…
Brian
And, yeah, for any of you fact-checkers, I am taking some paraphrasing-type liberties with my reference to James.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Amazing reading all this Western Capitalistic "Philosophy" on a very simple situation!
Consider this very old and wise Bedouin Rule...
When you die you only take three authentic items to your grave that identify who you really were:
Whether or not you did the Right Thing (Character) in matters like this and maintained your Honesty and Integrity throughout your earthly walk.
But that is hard in this society isn't it???? Money and Stature has taken the Kings chair and compromise of ones true Character in order to maintain such, is the standing rule. Very Sad!
PS...Ask Landis what he would do????
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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You'd pass her?
You'd sell out your integrity?
You'd bow before the almighty dollar?
That's not what Jesus would have done.
You should be ashamed to have ever called yourself a Christian.
You demand truth for WoS, but think this should be swept under the rug. That my friend, is hypocracy.
People get screwed for doing the right thing. It happens.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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I second that wholeheartedly Brian.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"You'd pass her?
You'd sell out your integrity?
You'd bow before the almighty dollar?
That's not what Jesus would have done."
Jesus said "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars." He is there to teach. The girl learns or she doesn't. The university plays the game of money and admission. That's probably how she got in in the first place.
So why not bring up the topic in class openly (in the abstract in the beginning) It's a philosophy class after all. He should tell the students the story without naming names, and let them discuss the issues. The girl might be ashamed that her dishonesty would cost this guy his livelihood. If he wanted, he could still pass her, and just tell the truth openly, the boss told me to! He might get fired anyway but having things out in public from the beginning could make it really hard to get away with.
Peace
karl
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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OK. I'll stir this pot a bit.
My entire career has been spent solving problems, probably because of a youth misspent studying physics, chemistry, mathematics and other things of limited practical use in day to day life. You might have guessed it - no formal training in philosopy or ethics.
Here is my take on why people have a hard time solving problems, especially even in my profession. Most people just plain never really learn to solve problems. Schools seem not to prepare them to do so, for the most part, including universities.
The number one most important step in solving a problem - the step, ironically, that most people very often fail to take - is to formally state formally exactly what the problem is. They simply fail to grasp the exact nature of the problem.
With an inadequate definition of the problem, they fail to collect all of the relevant facts. Collecting all of the relevant facts often is a precursor to carefully refining a statement of the problem.
A common reason for not collecting all of the relevant facts is insufficient familiarity with the actual domain of the problem. When insufficient domain knowledge is an issue, they often are satisfied to accept a flawed statement of the problem and begin working from there. The statement is often proffered by a domain expert. But the statement is flawed because the expert has not stated things that are obvious only to another expert in the domain.
Perhaps this failure is a result of training in school. They are taught something, then given an exactly stated problem, and nearly robotically replicate as solution for a similar problem. So they never understand the truly hard part of solving a problem is to get to the sometimes simple statement of the problem.
The poor problem solver is then left with an over-simplified statement of the problem. Disaster follows, inevitably, as inexorably they pursue artifacts.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2006 - 12:47pm PT
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Ladies and gentlemen,
Thank you very very much for the incredible amount of effort you have put into this! I sincerely appreciate what you've written, but not nearly so much as my friend the philosophy professor. He told me he was literally moved to tears!
Everything I have related to you is true, except one important omission:
The event happened three or four years ago.
My friend stood his ground and refused to cave in. They threatened in no uncertain terms to fire him, but after talking it over with his wife who supported him, he still refused to change the girl's mark to a higher one, even though he was certain it would cost him his job. They fired him as promised, and he was subsequently unsuccessful in his lawsuit against the university.
My understanding of the situation is that there was no reasonable compromise nor middle ground that was acceptable to him, and the only options he was offered would have been to do something that he considered to be morally and ethically wrong. It was a tough choice, and a costly one, but he did what he felt to be right.
Your brainstorming efforts above were superb, and maybe when he responds, he can tell you more precisely about the situation. Maybe he can tell you which ones he tried and why they didn't work.
So far he has been unable to find another job as a philosophy professor, because there just ain't much call for that kind of work! He now works as a computer geek for rather less money. His philosophy career is pretty much toast.
Despite all this, my friend remains upbeat and optimistic. I asked him if he ever regretted taking the high road, and he said he has never once looked back, and is at peace with the choice he made. He is a practising Christian, and takes the words of Paul in Romans to heart: "For we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, and who are called according to His purpose." What this means is that in all things - even the really bad - God guarantees that somehow He will find a way to have some good come from it, as long as you love the Lord [the first commandment according to Jesus] and walk the walk as God would have you do. I hope he shares the good that has come from this. You never know - some university in need of a philosophy professor might even read this. God moves in mysterious ways.
My friend is a Man of Integrity, and this I know beyond doubt.
This firing is not the only unjust thing that has happened to my friend. For nearly twenty-five years, despite accomplishing something that is really very cool, this man has been accused of being a liar, a cheat and a fraud. I want you to know that he is none of these things.
The man's name is Richard Jensen, and I am priveleged to have him as my friend.
Even if he is dumbass. Sheesh.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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I knew I had heard about this before.
Oh, and YOU ARE A TROLL.
So why did his wrongful termination lawsuit fail? What was the reason they gave?
What a life of injustice and persecution he has had. I wonder why the universe has singled him out, because clearly he has never done anything to upset anyone.
So if this was true, let's have the name of the university, and the name of the student, since it is all in the past.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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ROFL.
Twice I pointed out how implausible this was. But it appears everybody missed it, even though it was there in black and white. I laughed at myself when I realized that this was clearly a troll, having already taken the hook.
By the time of my post on problem solving, I was fully aware of the details.
So I left out another hint on problem solving, in deference to the fine troll.
Beware of making simplifying assumptions. While they may sometimes help to understand the problem or find solutions more easily, they almost never allow you to solve the original problem, but rather only the simplified one.
Further, it is important to examine solution strategies that are "out of the box". In this case, for many, out of the box means with out respect to black/white, right/wrong. It means understanding that this was a game in the mathematical sense as I alluded to earlier.
Let's hope Richard has more talent in solving problems in his new domain than he did in the previous cases.
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todd-gordon
climber
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I haven't read all these posts, but a career is just a career....it's not your LIFE......treat your job like a JOB.....it aint' God , or your family, or your health....it's a job...no more , no less........ JOB...you know;....paycheck, health insurance, time off to spent with family or climbing.........if you have to compromise alittle, kiss some ass, give in a bit, or bend over some....DO IT.....it's just a job......IF your job starts to over-rule your family, health, or climbing.....stick it in the box labeled "Just a job"...and keep it there. There is SO much more to life than work.........and remember...work aint' for everyone..........( So buy some lottery tickets!). I've had a career for over 25 years......I'd kiss it good-bye in a heartbeat.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think it's a interesting thread (but didn't read it all cause I'm on the road and in a hurry. I responded because I thought there was a real person with a timely problem and so I took the time to type instead of work.
So, to respect folk's time better, I think it would be more ethical to state hypothetical situations for what they are and save real calls for help for when they are real.
How does that fit in with your philosophy?
Peace
Karl
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2006 - 03:54pm PT
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It's a fascinating story, isn't it? I look forward to Richard's response.
Thanks again for your help, and if you were in any way offended by this post, [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=233144&f=0&b=0#msg233148"]please accept my apology.[/url]
Crimpie, thanks for your research! I don't have time to read your links now, but I look forward to doing so when I can.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Google his name and walla and quite a bit of stuff comes up.
Reading the other details makes it not so surprising to me. An administration has it in for a prof, so they let them go. Until tenured, that is life (and at times after tenure). Not that I'm saying it is correct or good or fair or anything, it just is. I would be willing to bet that the plagiarism incident wasn't the first sign of trouble.
Also, this sort of stuff is not restricted to academia. The 'real world' has endless examples of higher-ups finding reasons to let-go those they don't like for "legitimate" reasons.
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cjain
Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
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You beat me to the punch in posting the link, Crimpergirl.
The prof was not terminated. When his contract expired, they just refused to give him another contract.
The prof sued over both the non-renewal and for defamation, but his case did not even make it to trial. Basically, the trial court found that even if all the facts were as the prof said, he still did not have a case. The prof appealed this decision, but the court of appeals agreed with the trial court.
This does not mean that the prof did not get screwed. It just shows that it is very easy for schools, particularly private regligious schools, to refuse further employment to non-tenured teachers.
Read the decision. I do not think it was helpful to the prof that the entire History and Philosophy Department (presumably with the exception of the prof) sent a letter describing the prof as a
"professional misfit" who conducted himself in an "unprofessional manner" and unanimously recommending that he be dismissed as soon as possible. The letter also stated that it appeared the prof was "at war with the official Church organization" and compared him to David Koresh.
If the prof was really this unpopular with the rest of faculty, it is unlikely he would have ever received tenure, even without the plagiarism incident. He should have seen the handwriting on the wall and bailed on them.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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"And don't for one moment think your stunning good looks are going to get you off the hook this time. "
Now who is trolling. You must have been stunned to begin with
;-)
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Crimpie goes straight for the facts. A strong play! :-)
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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"Professional misfit"
So it seems those events in the valley all those years ago weren't uncharacteristic at all.
There is a big difference between being fired and not having a contract renewed.
You not only misrepresented the timeframe, but also the pertinent facts of the situation.
The best part was the comparison to David Koresch.
Keep talking dudes, this just keeps getting better and better.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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Lois:
I am curious about your second-chance approach. Personally, I do not give students a second chance on a plagiarized paper. They get a zero and are reported to the Academic Honestly Committee (and this is clearly stated on the syllabi and discussed in class). My zero-tolerance policy has nothing to do with forgiveness for fouling up, because I agree, we all foul up in time. For me, it has to do with fairness. Is this second opportunity fair to all the other students who played by the rules, did their own work and turned it in on time? What if someone turned in a bad, but self-authored paper? Do they also get a second chance? And if they do, what if their second attempt is plagiarized? Do they then get yet another chance?
I am curious as to what you think the message that a 'second-chance' policy sends to the other students.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2006 - 06:12pm PT
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Wow! Thanks, Crimpie! That is quite the judgement. If the conspiracy against Richard and Mark for Wings Of Steel weren't enough, he's got the whole college conspiring against him.
I guess the college couldn't sack him immediately for not caving in, so they had to wait, and simply not renew his contract.
So I raise my glass of Aussie chardonnay in a toast:
"Here's to 'professional misfits'! And here's to those who have to sack to stand up and do what's right, even if it costs them their job!"
Richard - why couldn't/wouldn't you effect a compromise? Couldn't you have let her rewrite the paper or something?
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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There is a term for people who think the world is conspiring against them. What is it...
Paranoid?
Delusional?
Schizophrenic?
Damn, I can't read the small print on my prescription bottle...
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cjain
Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
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Here's how the court describes the plagiarism incident:
"Mr. Jensen argued that the real reason he lost his job was because in May 1999, Mr. Jensen failed a student, M.E., for plagiarism. M.E. filed a grade petition. The petition hearings extended through the entire academic year, involving the College Administration, the Academic Standards Committee, and the College Grievance Committee. The end result was that Mr. Jensen's course and grade were expunged from M.E.'s transcript and, in Mr. Jensen's opinion, the incident made the College look bad."
EDITED TO ADD THIS:
Also, here is an article written by Mr. Jensen for a school publication: http://people.wwc.edu/clubs/aswwc/publications/collegian/online/point.htm#The%20Real%20Issue
Together with the court's decision, this article is very enlightening as to why Mr. Jensen may not have fit in. Keep in mind that Walla Walla College is not just a secular state college, it is a Seventh Day Adventist institution.
The court mentioned that Mr. Jensen belonged to a completely different tradition of philosophy then the rest of the department. Mr. Jensen adhered to analytic philosphy while the others followed continental philosophy.
Now many of of us tend to think of philisophy of being a very esoteric and academic pursuit, but it appears that the professor's philosphical views deeply impacted his views of religion. For example, He says, "...I will not apologize for the passion with which I express my deep belief in the integration of philosophy into the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, institutions, and experience."
Mr. Jensen goes on to say, "So, whither philosophy in the Seventh-day Adventist church? It is already here, there and everywhere. And much of it is very bad!"
Then he goes on to complain that the religion's sermons of containing heresy, "...[S]ermons very often are filled with reasoning that is so faulty that heresy is a necessary entailment of accepting the reasoning as delivered. The great tragedy is the failure of both the preacher and the congregation to even recognize the heresy embedded in the preaching..."
And he warns of dire consequences, " if we "gather in souls" using faulty methods, we not only make our new "converts" ten times the children of Hell that we are, we guarantee that the day will come in which these nominal converts will become our worst enemies..."
Do you see what I mean? Is it really so surprising that they refused to renew his contract? As an experiment, go to a church or regligious institution or your choice (doesn't matter which, you can pick one at random) and somehow get them to hire you as a teacher. Then after you are hired publically complain that their philosophy is wrong and their sermons contain heresy. Tell them that instead of saving people they are instead making them more "children of hell." Now try to get them to renew your teaching contract.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
St. Louis
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I didn't write anything about a conspiracy. I personally am not one to go for the conspiracy angle, but the fact is, if someone with more power wants someone below them gone - for a legitimate or illegitimate reason - it will happen. As an untenured professor it can be done by not reissuing a contact. This happens ALL THE TIME for many reasons. Welcome to academia - and they say there is no pressure...
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Pete said "conspiring"
Thanks for the link, it clears this up nicely.
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ha-ha
climber
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i think the prudent thing to do would be to pinch a nice, steamy deuce on the essay and heckle her off the campus.
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Ouch!
climber
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"Crimpie goes straight for the facts. A strong play! :-)"
Crimpie is my hero.
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cjain
Mountain climber
Lake Forest, CA
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Umm, call me slow, but I am only now making the connection. Is your friend, the professor, the same person who is active on Supertopo in a certain other lengthy thread?
The thread was interesting while it centered around helping someone in urgent need of help, and it remained interesting in the abstract even after I learned it was about a past event.
But while the thread remains interesting, I wonder if this interest justifies reopening someone's personal tragedy. I am half of a mind to delete my posts to the extent they address the historical (and not just hypothetical) aspects of the case. But I will do so on request.
Pete, if you think this thread is starting to just open old wounds, rather then provide a sense of perspective and closure, you should consider deleting the entire thread.
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Ouch!
climber
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"My way she is going to squirm big time and do a lot more work to make ammends"
Lois, in this case, I suspect you might be doing more squirming that the student. After all, why grade if it has no meaning.
Then, who can say. A wise warrior does not pick battles he knows he can't win.
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Ouch!
climber
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Looks to me like this dude martyred himself. Bearding the lion in his own den. Sheesh!
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Melissa's thoughts are the most realistic.
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Ouch!
climber
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Lois, in the case described here, you would probably be simply out of a job. Maybe not if it was a public institution.
I see where you are coming from here. Most instructors do not have or do not take the time to nursemaid a lazy student.
This case looked to me like it was less about the student than
competing philosophies...if religion is a philosophy.
Edit.... Since it was a troll, it doesn't matter anyway except a sneaky way for Pete to make some abstract point about ropeshitting.
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WBraun
climber
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They wanted the Professor out of there to begin with way before the grading blackmail.
He was toast before that scenario. They were looking for something to get him for. Probably a collaboration between the Dean and the Dad was a setup, I'm sepeculating.
As Ouch said: "This case looked to me like it was less about the student than competing philosophies...if religion is a philosophy."
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Finally! A conspiracy theory. It was only a matter of time. :-)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 5, 2006 - 10:52pm PT
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Dang, Werner, that's an interesting thought....
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Wade Icey
Social climber
the EPC
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I'm thinking 'Children of Hell' would be a splendid name for the free WOS.
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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one thing that permeates this thread is the notion that institutional education is some bastion of integrity. really?
some tenured professor that whines about stepping on their 'political dick' usually need only examine the road to academic glory, who paved it, and why they believe others should follow.
is it 'philosophy' or 'self-aggrandization'?
GOD forbid, perhaps a struggle to marry the two?
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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So let me get this straight, Pete, I'll play back what I've just seen to be sure we're on the same page:
You post a lie in order to demonstrate the integrity of your friend???
No need to apologize, just amazed at how you can topstep after cutting off your own feet...
There wouldn't be any personal bias in your evaluation of WoS resulting from your friendship, would there? Never mind answering, I doubt we could take any such answer seriously, given this thread's title and where it has led us.
Curious,
Brutus
Not slandering the route, because I've only looked at the first few placements of each start, and don't know it from the West Face of Cerro Torre. (I was going to say the compressor route, until I realized someone might take that the wrong way.)
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 6, 2006 - 03:40pm PT
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I told it as kind of a modern-day parable, Brutus. I don't really think I presented it the correct way as it pissed a few people off, and so I wouldn't do such a thing again.
If you scroll up a bit, you can find the link to my apology.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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The student got better than she deserved when they expunged both the grade and the course. Voila! No F. No nuthin'. I think undergrad plagiarism is rampant and needs to be dealt with harshly.
Can't say how I feel about Richard. First WOS, now this. Is his whole life about being misunderstood? Maybe he is a professional pain in the ass.
On the other hand, I'm all for academic freedom and goring sacred cows. If he took a principled, academically sound stand and was fired because he refused to be silent about the hypocrisy he saw in SDA sermons and liturgy, then he's a hero.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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I think the problem is the second sentence of the first post.
"This story is true."
More accurately, it is based on a true story.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Although I'm pretty much in agreement with you Jody on this one, I would be in favor of giving this student the option to retake the course, or taking the F. The difference between your situation and hers is the difference in age, the danger to the public if you cheat, and the ideal of scrupulous honesty that we hold LEOs to.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Go in with guns blazing! That is as it sounds like he wants to be a maryter anyhow. Go out in style scandle storiers will follow and the school and father will fall far deeper than you friend fell.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Give her the F.
Accept her apology.
Take the whole story to the papers.
Force the whole thing into the open.
Be sure to show the trail to the money.
I was a Grad Assistant for a philosophy course I was overseeing where two students were cheating in an examine. The funny thing was they were giving each other the answers to different questions. One had 21, the other had 22, etc. They were sharing their info to better each other's score. Collaborative.
When questioned about the incident during the exam, they both looked at me like I was the crazy one for stopping them and taking their exams away.
They were both recent immigrants from the same country. They were questioned further by the professor. The end result was that I learned that cultural mores really do play a part in ones perception. Individualism vs. collective assistance.
not sure where I'm going with this, but fascinating that perspectives can be so absolutely diverse.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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I don't know what world some of you sheltered people live in, but Money talks and bullshite walks when your in the big leagues.
Unfortunately Pete's friend is stuck eating a shite sandwhich and he should Not jeopardize his career ( maybe to late) and lively hood of his family over this matter. It's obviously wrong, but throwing himself under the train isn't going to improve the situation.
The real world sucks and there are always going to be "privaleged individuals" who get away with a different set of rules. If her father is dumping 6 or 7 figures into the University don't you think he probably has his fingers in the Press and many other entites? If the professor gets black balled he's gonna end up pounding nails in Las Vegas to support his family. The university systems our so incestous and politcal, it's a shame he didn't have a better understanding of the game( or at least the cheating students connections) before this blew up and then he could have swallowed a smaller serving of dung on a cracker. There is no justice, only the illusion of it to help control the masses..
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2006 - 08:23am PT
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Thank you once again for your thoughtful responses. What you read above was Big Wall Theory. You now have the opportunity to read Big Wall Fact. You have read the lawsuit, so you have that side of the story. Richard has now posted his side of the story.
Please click her to read [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=233144"]Richard's detailed account of exactly what happened.[/url]
I do not want you to answer on this post, but on the other post linked above because it contains Richard's account.
Now that you know both sides of the story, I repeat my question: "Would you lose your career to do what's right?"
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Aug 10, 2006 - 08:52am PT
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Both sides?! I count at least 9 major participants in this story.
And a minor cast of a score or so?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Sep 25, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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How is it I'm the first to think of this ? Is the girl HOT? Please reply urgent with pictures.
(nice thread revival) All those hypocrites will be rotting in hell, so payback is a bitch. To the question if I would have givin in....well, my boy is in school and he just went up to one of his teachers and asked if he could put off her class for later caused he'd dicked off and didn't get the work done, ....she said sure!
In this case, people often collaborate and ask others opinions at Universities, that end result often is put down on a paper that has a single persons name on it. Furthermore is very common and OK to give folks the benefit of the doubt, which means you tell the girl to never do it again and give her a 2nd chance to do the work. Would you not show some if this Christian compassion if the girl came from a poor family and was extremely apologetic?
That's probably what I'd have done.
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Sep 25, 2009 - 03:47pm PT
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At first I was going to say maybe let it slide. But after reading more about it, I'd say fight it. There are other options than continuing to work at this all too hypocritical a place. I mean, a little hypocrisy is kind a human... but this sounds like too much to stomach.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 25, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
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Are all you people oblivious the the fact that this is a thread from 2006?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 25, 2009 - 08:18pm PT
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hey there matt, say, good note... :)
i suppose the "priciple" or points, etc, still live on, as to the applications in other-folks, lives... so, some good will overspill... ;)
say, though---i wonder how it all turned out though...
sure hope it was good for the man...
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Sep 25, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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So what was the rest of the story? Did he stand firm & get fired or cave in & profit?
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doktor_g
Social climber
Mt Shasta, CA
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Sep 26, 2009 - 11:56am PT
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Well, it's a tough choice. I know I've done things that I'm not proud of, but I think your friend is right for standing his ground.
Also, I think a big fat lawsuit against the school and the benefactor (the father) which would be costly both financially as well as publicity-wise. I think that if the PhD is tenured or no, he should stand his ground. I think he is certainly on the right side of University policy, morality, ethics and public opinion. Since that's the case he stands to gain a great deal by making the right decision. If he's fired... go to the press and hire a lawyer. It's a big easy win. Then the University (and the Dean) oh (and the benefactor) are F*#K3D.
Tell that rich dlck to go f himself too.
Dr G
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Leo Gokovski
climber
AZ
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Sep 26, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Pete,
Is your friends' academic honesty important enough for him to risk his career, or at the very least complicate his life for the short while? (financial difficulties, finding another job, moving to a different town, etc..) Would he like to be tenured and associated with an institute that is somewhat corrupt?
Remember, tenure is not automatic, and each professor is scrutinized before tenure is granted. in other words, even if he does comply with the deans' demands, he may still not become tenured. if that is the case, is it still worth to bend to the will of the corrupt and become corrupt yourself ?
Secondly, does he think that by standing his grounds he may cause more good that if he "let it slide" and educate scores of students in ethics, morality and provide them with the skills necessary to search for their truths?
I think that once your friend will answer those questions, he will have his course of action.
Your friend from Virginia/Trip
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Sep 26, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
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"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." Yogi Berra?
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:17pm PT
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So PTPP, what happened anyway?
I say, choose your battles. This one isn't big enough to die over (or lose your job over). Ever work in a corporate setting? Have to make dirty decisions everyday. Can't be pure in this world unless you're a monk in a cave in the Himalayas.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Sep 30, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
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I'm sad to read this now. I know a law firm that may have taken this case pro bono...
What happened?
Look up the Thomas More Law Center. Good peeps who fight this kind of bullshit!!!!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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isn't the story that Richard lost his job over this, sued and lost.
Not all endings are happy.
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sully
Trad climber
CA
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Your friend should stand his ground and in the future use turnitin.com for student essay submissions. I use it for my student essays and it nails frauds big time. My dad was a philosophy professor and his kind die on their swords. Good for your friend.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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I say get some facts to back up the claim of plagiarism.
If he has the facts, when it comes time to get his walking papers he can point to the evidence and say "look, no teacher/professor in their right mind would allow this behavior"
also, if he can get the dean to put his demand to stand down on paper, he might even be able to take him down as well.
To be sure, he still has options, IMO
he can pass the paper, and know deep down that rich pussies get what they want in this life, and moral stands mean nothing...
or he could say the paper can be re-written, just for the cheater, in front of the entire class, just to rub the nose of the dean and the father in it (also, while he still has a job, he should go out and get a T-shirt made with a logo or saying on it to the effect of "Cheaters always lose, or only losers cheat" or something
He could ask the class what they think, or take a vote in the class to see what the youth of America think if fair...
or he can flop, turn his back on the dean, the father, waive the dumb-ass kid through the univ and keep his job
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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This is a great life story of what to do when faced with a major decision that can make you into who you want to be or just another person.
My theory: One must build a life foundation. This consists of basic beliefs that you will live by and make decisions by. These are the most important things you believe and you must adhere to, to be the person you want to be in your journey around the planet. When you create a sound life foundation you can then build a beautiful life on it. If storms come and the building crashes....you still have your solid foundation to build back upon.
I hope this makes sense. It's late and I'm tired....but this Totally Works. Peace, Love and Joy....lynnie
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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“Depending on whose version you hear, opinions about Richard Jensen range from calling him an irreplaceable intellectual and spiritual asset whose loss would be tragic, to a devastatingly divisive David Koresh-like cult leader at war with the church who needs to be terminated as soon as possib.”
This is a quote from page 12 of a back issue of Adventist Today (found by a quick google search, provoked in turn by this bizarre thread):
http://atoday.com/files/Jan-Feb%202001_1.pdf
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Morgan
Trad climber
East Coast
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Sounds like this dean is a total prick. Firing is already on his mind. So your friend gives in and lets the student slide, but then he gets fired anyway. How will he feel then?
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Prezwoodz
Big Wall climber
Anchorage
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I admire this man already. I would try to have a meeting with her father. See if he is a more reasonable man. Maybe she went home and said he just didn't like it or her so he gave her an F. Who knows the kind of lies that she may be spewing. People like her make me sick. People like the principle also make me sick. If he gives in then he will lose his integrity and perhaps will begin to wonder why he is teaching at all. It may seem small but remember that he has made it his life, not just because he wants to be in a classroom but because he wants to do something useful for society and to teach. If he can't teach one girl and two apparent adults that cheating is not the way then what good is he doing in the first place? I say stick with it.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Morgan asked:
So your friend gives in and lets the student slide, but then he gets fired anyway. How will he feel then?
It's not quite that simple. The Adventist Today article (it's a great read by the way) relates that
"the student retracted the
confession of guilt on the basis of intimidation."
The article also states that Walla Walla University has become "a deeply wounded
and divided camp" as a result of this controversy.
The professor's skills and popularity are not in doubt. He is described as brilliant, charismatic, etc.
Trivial stuff in and of itself. This is a climbing forum. But so much of climbing depends on honesty and full disclosure. There has been honesty here, but it appears full disclosure is lacking, or slow in emerging.
Are there some parallels with the WoS debate here, one asks?
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dfrost7
Social climber
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Going through this right now, myself. Different version, still having to do with Admin and teacher stuff. More than gray areas.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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My response is; stand his ground give her the zero and to tell to her to think for herself . And expose the whole mess to the alumni the media and the world. NO FREE Pass. If you bend the rules once, you will have to bend them again and agian… and it will never stop! He is a Professor not a politician. In the end you have to live with yourself. Integrity is everything as a teacher, and in life.
Dogtown.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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If it was me I'd have had everything on
HD video from the hidden cam in my office.
The rich daughters confessing to plagiarism
and the Dean's instructions to let it slide.
with that leverage I'd be tenured for life
and if the School called my bluff the story
would be in all the papers and on the evening news
and the Dean would be out of his job and the
rich daughters family embarrassed.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Sounds like he need to call 20/20... or threaten to do so.
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crossman04
Trad climber
san diego, ca
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So what did your friend ever decide to do? (now that someone resurrected this 3 year old post)
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dec 28, 2009 - 10:20pm PT
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Yes, but you are inured to the oppression of Stalinist Soviet Union and the knowledge that the Gulag is the final destination for you if you object. I mean, that's what you're trip was. I read The Gulag Archipelago, and that's how you roll.
Right?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
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Ah! This old chestnut. You know this is a true life story, right? That it took place some years ago, that this thread is some years old, and that the friend is a poster here on McTopo?
Do you also know that the answer of what actually happened is later revealed in a subsequent post above? The only "urgency" in the post is that the person in question was getting libelled rather viciously simultaneously in a concurrent post.
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Lee Bow
Trad climber
wet island
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aww Pete, why clarify anything...I was having such fun watching this bizzare thread drift on the WOS thing...
By the way the whole WOS thing is my absolute favorite of all time. I have no idea what the real TRUTH is, but I've followed ever bit of it. Of course I also think driving video stock cars around in circles for five hundred laps is good fun too.
Cheers, from the'hour glass end'
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